WEBVTT

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

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SARAH HANSEN: Today
on Chalk Radio,

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helping students
re-imagine cities.

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DAVID HSU: I really--

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I think, more than some
environmental analysts

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or academics, I
guess I really do

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believe in the potential
for people's behavior change

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to have an impact on
total climate emissions

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or total climate change.

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SARAH HANSEN: For
this episode, I

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sat down with Professor
David Hsu, instructor

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for course 11.165, Urban Energy
Systems and Policy, here at MIT.

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DAVID HSU: I study how cities
relate to the environment.

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And I guess, most recently,
I've been studying,

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in a number of areas,
kind of the spaces

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in which cities can
act on climate change.

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SARAH HANSEN: Before delving
too deeply into this course,

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I wanted to talk to David a bit
about urban planning, a major

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and a department here at
MIT that David co-chairs.

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Interestingly enough, our urban
expert guest doesn't even really

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consider himself a city person.

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DAVID HSU: I don't naturally
feel like a city dweller

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as much as somebody who
just happens to like nature,

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happens to live in the city.

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But also, I think studying
how cities could be healthier

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and cleaner and more
environmentally friendly always

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just felt very natural to
me because, in some ways,

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I love cities.

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I lived in a bunch of cities.

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I've lived in, I
think, 10 cities

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since I went off to college.

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I actually worked
for about a decade.

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And I worked in
engineering for a while,

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and I worked in
finance for a while.

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And I worked in city government
for a while in New York and then

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Seattle.

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And I always tell
my students that I

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didn't know that engineering
plus finance plus government was

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urban planning.

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SARAH HANSEN: And for David,
you might add climate change

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to that formula.

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Much of his research and courses
take a climate change angle

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on urban planning,
and all of his work

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comes down to the most basic
ingredient of any community--

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people.

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I think what I find so
interesting about your work is

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just how it comes
down to the person.

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It seems like you're
really interested in how

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people themselves in
communities interact

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with the cities and
the infrastructure

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and how they can
impact climate change.

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DAVID HSU: I guess
I really do believe

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in the potential for
people's behavior change

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to have an impact on
total climate emissions

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or total climate change.

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But also, I think, maybe in
a small d democratic sense

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that I really think that
democratic solutions are

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going to be the ones that
are going to be most lasting.

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If you are good at something
but you don't like doing it,

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how long are you really
going to do it for?

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And similarly, if we think we
have technological solutions

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for climate change, if
we don't arrive at them

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in democratic means and
equitable ways or just ways,

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how long are those solutions
really going to last?

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And are we going to really see
them through at the timescales

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we need?

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SARAH HANSEN: These are
exactly the kinds of questions

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posed in David's course.

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In it, he invites
students to think

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about climate change
and urban planning

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by looking at the context that's
led our entire planet to where

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it is today.

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DAVID HSU: Frankly, most of our
population is located in cities,

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and having worked in
New York City government

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and having read quite a bit
about what urban planners write

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about cities, I
would actually point

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to a particular kind of
complacency or blind spot

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that we have regarding cities.

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I think a lot of city
policymakers or analysts

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will point to cities and
say, oh, cities actually

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have lower per capita emissions
than rural areas or related

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areas.

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And I've always found that
to be particularly complacent

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or a blind spot for
a bunch of reasons.

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First, we only know that those
numbers are true because we only

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count certain things.

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We count the greenhouse
gas emissions

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related to transportation
and space heating,

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but we don't always count the
greenhouse gas emissions related

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to electricity coming to
cities or food or water

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or materials like
concrete and cement.

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I think we have to think
about climate change

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worldwide as a heterogeneous
problem as big as the world.

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Greenhouse gas
emissions are global.

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But how we emit them
and how we've emitted

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them historically is wildly,
completely inequitably

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distributed.

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SARAH HANSEN: The numbers
here are pretty stark.

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I asked David to
give some examples

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of what this inequitable
distribution of emissions

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really looks like.

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DAVID HSU: Poor countries,
on a per capita basis,

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consume vastly less.

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The US is probably around 15
metric tons of carbon dioxide

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equivalent per person.

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Europe and Japan are probably
around 10 metric tons.

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Global average is
about 5 metric tons.

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And in India, it's about 2.

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And in a place like
Kenya, it's less than 1.

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And so that's how
inequitable the problem is.

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Like I, as a North American,
literally, probably,

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am responsible for 15 times more
of a problem on an annual basis

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than somebody in Kenya.

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That's fundamentally
inequitable.

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And if we're looking at
a more equitable future,

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there's really nowhere for us
to go but down in our emission

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of greenhouse gases.

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SARAH HANSEN: And
this is the message

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that lies at the crux
of David's class.

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While many cities are focusing
on adapting to climate change,

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creating policies
and changes that

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help them deal with the
effects of climate change

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like heatwaves, flooding,
and sea level rise,

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David's focus is on mitigation
or how urban planners can

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help cities cut down on the
problems that are contributing

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to climate change.

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DAVID HSU: Mitigation is, how do
we stop creating climate change?

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And mostly almost
exclusively, that's

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happening through our
greenhouse gas emissions.

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So how do we reduce our
greenhouse gas emissions

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while trying to maintain a
standard of living that we all

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aspire to, whether or not
you're in a rich country

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or poor country?

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So local governments have
a really big role to play.

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SARAH HANSEN: One of
the things that David

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does in his class is
focus on discussion.

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So much of the work
of an urban planner

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is about community
decision making,

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and that same spirit
exists in the class.

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In our interview,
David mentioned

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that he makes a concerted
effort to equip his students

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as well as possible
for these discussions.

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And where possible, he brings
the simple truth of math

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to the kinds of human equations
that you just might not expect.

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DAVID HSU: I try to teach
really simple calculations that

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are simple enough for anyone
to access using basically

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high school level math.

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And I do that because
all of our students--

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MIT students are pretty darn
good at sophisticated math.

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But to have a conversation
about some of these topics,

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you just really
need simple math.

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And so we do simple
calculations just to establish

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the scope of the problem.

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And so we have debates.

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Like some students will
say, I'm vegetarian,

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but I like to travel.

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And I'll say, well, it's a
pretty simple math problem.

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We'll just look
at the greenhouse

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gas emissions associated
with both activities.

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We will look at
problems, like I want

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to focus on electrifying buses.

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Most places, actually, buses
almost always make sense.

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But electric vehicles,
it's OK to be

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skeptical about electric
vehicles in some ways.

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Electric vehicles
solve some problems.

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They don't solve all problems.

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If you're sitting in
traffic congestion

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in an electric vehicle, you're
still losing that labor time

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even if your exhaust
emissions have gone down.

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But air pollution still comes
from non-exhaust sources

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like tire particles.

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So we'll talk about that
just to kind of say,

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here's all the aspects
of the problem.

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We're not solving the
problem, but I actually

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welcome the students being
skeptical because that's

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how we learn to solve
the right problem.

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SARAH HANSEN: David
explained that readings

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are really important
for a class like this,

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so he tries to offer
readings from various angles

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on the same subject.

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DAVID HSU: So we try to
use readings to kind of set

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the table.

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And if you give a bunch of
students four or five papers--

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and I try to give them sometimes
conflicting papers so they

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can sort out which paper they
find more appealing to them

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or which arguments they
find more appealing

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- they can use that process.

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So we can use it to out which
arguments people sympathize

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with, which ones
they disagree with,

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and, frankly, sometimes
both ideas can be right,

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but they can conflict, and
we learn from that too.

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SARAH HANSEN: Climate change is
big and sweeping and, frankly,

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terrifying and can make us
feel helpless to do anything

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about it.

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So David uses his class
to empower his students

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to take action, even
in sometimes small,

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incremental ways.

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DAVID HSU: Well, I guess
a good thing coming out

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of climate change is that
the problem is so big

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and the responses are
so big that actually I'm

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kind of excited for my students.

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I say, whatever interests you
have, whatever concern you have,

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your skill is going to matter.

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So if you're a
software programmer,

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if you're an accountant,
if you're a lawyer,

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if you're an
advertiser, if you're--

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whatever you do, I
think actually you

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can contribute to
climate change if you

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care about climate change.

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I just think we should
welcome everyone

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to work on climate change and
that, if you look around even

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MIT, the sheer number
of people working

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on different aspects of the
problem is really heartening.

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And so I always say to
students, find your spot.

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Find the thing that you're
passionate about that you

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can make a difference
on, that you find joy in,

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and that you think is
interesting and exciting.

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If you work on that
and even if you

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make a small,
incremental improvement--

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I always show them how
technologies connect.

00:09:20.430 --> 00:09:22.880 align:middle line:84%
Making a small incremental
improvement in one technology

00:09:22.880 --> 00:09:26.595 align:middle line:84%
can have really important
knock-on effects down the road.

00:09:26.595 --> 00:09:28.220 align:middle line:84%
It's a little bit
overwhelming to think

00:09:28.220 --> 00:09:29.750 align:middle line:84%
about the scale of
the problem and trying

00:09:29.750 --> 00:09:31.740 align:middle line:84%
to feel like you're
solving the whole problem.

00:09:31.740 --> 00:09:34.640 align:middle line:84%
But if you do your part to
solve part of the problem,

00:09:34.640 --> 00:09:36.210 align:middle line:90%
I think we'll solve the problem.

00:09:36.210 --> 00:09:38.560 align:middle line:90%
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:09:38.560 --> 00:09:41.380 align:middle line:90%


00:09:41.380 --> 00:09:43.310 align:middle line:84%
SARAH HANSEN: That was
Professor David Hsu,

00:09:43.310 --> 00:09:48.250 align:middle line:84%
instructor for course 11.165,
Urban Energy Systems and Policy.

00:09:48.250 --> 00:09:50.050 align:middle line:84%
You can find his
teaching materials

00:09:50.050 --> 00:09:52.760 align:middle line:84%
on our MIT
OpenCourseWare website.

00:09:52.760 --> 00:09:55.030 align:middle line:84%
As always, they are
openly licensed,

00:09:55.030 --> 00:09:58.720 align:middle line:84%
so you can reuse and remix
them in your own teaching.

00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:01.030 align:middle line:84%
You can help others
find the materials, too,

00:10:01.030 --> 00:10:03.850 align:middle line:84%
by subscribing to the podcast
and leaving us a rating

00:10:03.850 --> 00:10:05.110 align:middle line:90%
and review.

00:10:05.110 --> 00:10:07.130 align:middle line:90%
Thank you so much for listening.

00:10:07.130 --> 00:10:10.540 align:middle line:84%
Until next time, signing off
from Cambridge, Massachusetts,

00:10:10.540 --> 00:10:15.460 align:middle line:84%
I'm your host, Sarah Hansen
from MIT OpenCourseWare.

00:10:15.460 --> 00:10:19.060 align:middle line:84%
MIT Chalk Radio's producers
include myself, Brett Paci,

00:10:19.060 --> 00:10:20.720 align:middle line:90%
and Dave Lishansky.

00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:22.570 align:middle line:84%
The show notes for
this episode were

00:10:22.570 --> 00:10:25.060 align:middle line:84%
written by Peter
Chipman, who also built

00:10:25.060 --> 00:10:26.650 align:middle line:90%
the course on our website.

00:10:26.650 --> 00:10:29.860 align:middle line:84%
We're funded by MIT Open
Learning and supporters

00:10:29.860 --> 00:10:30.760 align:middle line:90%
like you.

00:10:30.760 --> 00:10:33.810 align:middle line:90%
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:10:33.810 --> 00:10:38.000 align:middle line:90%