WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.810 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:00:00.810 --> 00:00:03.690 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: The people who are living in cities 00:00:03.690 --> 00:00:07.350 align:middle line:84% represent a complexity of the human experience 00:00:07.350 --> 00:00:09.540 align:middle line:84% that we've never organized around. 00:00:09.540 --> 00:00:12.270 align:middle line:84% If you have a democracy, and you need your public 00:00:12.270 --> 00:00:14.480 align:middle line:84% to be able to be engaged, you need 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:16.770 align:middle line:90% to have a system for doing that. 00:00:16.770 --> 00:00:19.560 align:middle line:84% We actually don't have one for that kind of public. 00:00:19.560 --> 00:00:20.712 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:00:20.712 --> 00:00:22.170 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Today on the podcast, 00:00:22.170 --> 00:00:25.710 align:middle line:84% we're exploring the world of civic design and re-imagining 00:00:25.710 --> 00:00:28.680 align:middle line:84% what public engagement in demographically complex 00:00:28.680 --> 00:00:30.480 align:middle line:90% communities might look like. 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:31.510 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:00:31.510 --> 00:00:33.750 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: There are no complete solutions. 00:00:33.750 --> 00:00:36.060 align:middle line:84% You have to learn how to make decisions 00:00:36.060 --> 00:00:39.360 align:middle line:84% in the midst of ambiguity, which means, for you internally, 00:00:39.360 --> 00:00:44.030 align:middle line:84% you have to have your own dialogue with yourself. 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:45.810 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:00:45.810 --> 00:00:48.240 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: I'm your host, Sarah Hansen. 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:51.630 align:middle line:84% In this episode, I'm talking with an MIT professor 00:00:51.630 --> 00:00:53.730 align:middle line:84% who bravely navigates along the deepest 00:00:53.730 --> 00:00:56.640 align:middle line:84% rifts in our public discourse, and who 00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:00.060 align:middle line:84% works with students and communities alike to step 00:01:00.060 --> 00:01:02.760 align:middle line:90% consciously into these spaces. 00:01:02.760 --> 00:01:05.580 align:middle line:84% My guest today is Professor Ceasar McDowell, 00:01:05.580 --> 00:01:10.750 align:middle line:84% who teaches course 11.312, Engaging Community. 00:01:10.750 --> 00:01:13.210 align:middle line:84% But before we get into our conversation, 00:01:13.210 --> 00:01:15.850 align:middle line:84% we wanted to pause to remember that so many 00:01:15.850 --> 00:01:19.840 align:middle line:84% of our OCW team members, and probably many of you, 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:23.300 align:middle line:84% have lost people that they love over this past year. 00:01:23.300 --> 00:01:26.440 align:middle line:84% And so we're dedicating this last episode of Season 2 00:01:26.440 --> 00:01:29.380 align:middle line:84% to all of our loved ones, and to all of yours, 00:01:29.380 --> 00:01:31.690 align:middle line:84% and to all of those who carry their light forward. 00:01:31.690 --> 00:01:34.320 align:middle line:90% 00:01:34.320 --> 00:01:36.360 align:middle line:84% Professor McDowell approaches his work 00:01:36.360 --> 00:01:39.310 align:middle line:84% with community engagement like it's an art form. 00:01:39.310 --> 00:01:42.150 align:middle line:84% In fact, he's built an entire design framework 00:01:42.150 --> 00:01:45.960 align:middle line:84% for practitioners to shape and facilitate these engagements. 00:01:45.960 --> 00:01:48.030 align:middle line:84% But before we get into all of that, 00:01:48.030 --> 00:01:49.650 align:middle line:84% we need to understand the main problem 00:01:49.650 --> 00:01:53.100 align:middle line:84% his work seeks to address, his why, if you will. 00:01:53.100 --> 00:01:54.600 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: Things are actually 00:01:54.600 --> 00:01:55.830 align:middle line:90% changing in this country. 00:01:55.830 --> 00:01:58.200 align:middle line:90% Our populations are changing. 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:00.030 align:middle line:84% And right now, in cities, I think 00:02:00.030 --> 00:02:03.600 align:middle line:84% we're just seeing that more pronounced than anywhere else. 00:02:03.600 --> 00:02:04.100 align:middle line:90% Right? 00:02:04.100 --> 00:02:07.950 align:middle line:84% That the people who are living in cities 00:02:07.950 --> 00:02:12.330 align:middle line:84% just happen to represent a complexity of human experience 00:02:12.330 --> 00:02:14.790 align:middle line:84% that we've never organized around. 00:02:14.790 --> 00:02:18.270 align:middle line:84% And if you have a democracy, and you need your public 00:02:18.270 --> 00:02:20.490 align:middle line:84% to be able to be engaged, you need 00:02:20.490 --> 00:02:22.740 align:middle line:90% to have a system for doing that. 00:02:22.740 --> 00:02:25.561 align:middle line:84% We actually don't have one for that kind of public. 00:02:25.561 --> 00:02:29.330 align:middle line:90% 00:02:29.330 --> 00:02:31.850 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: A lot of Professor McDowell's course and work 00:02:31.850 --> 00:02:34.740 align:middle line:84% center around the idea of democracy. 00:02:34.740 --> 00:02:37.640 align:middle line:84% But in this episode, when we talk about democracy, 00:02:37.640 --> 00:02:40.580 align:middle line:84% we're not talking about elections and voting. 00:02:40.580 --> 00:02:42.860 align:middle line:84% When Professor McDowell speaks of democracy, 00:02:42.860 --> 00:02:45.800 align:middle line:84% he's talking about the engagement, the communities, 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:49.580 align:middle line:84% the conversations, the processes that we have as a public 00:02:49.580 --> 00:02:51.920 align:middle line:84% to come together and make decisions. 00:02:51.920 --> 00:02:54.290 align:middle line:84% And a lot of these processes that we traditionally 00:02:54.290 --> 00:02:57.812 align:middle line:84% consider democracy in action are a little outdated. 00:02:57.812 --> 00:02:59.270 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: I'll tell you what 00:02:59.270 --> 00:03:00.937 align:middle line:84% I mean by we don't have a democracy that 00:03:00.937 --> 00:03:02.180 align:middle line:90% works for who we are. 00:03:02.180 --> 00:03:06.260 align:middle line:84% I'll give you an example of how we hold on to something 00:03:06.260 --> 00:03:08.570 align:middle line:84% as a way of thinking about democracy that does not 00:03:08.570 --> 00:03:10.730 align:middle line:90% serve us well right now. 00:03:10.730 --> 00:03:14.060 align:middle line:84% You can go back to the founding of the country. 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:17.712 align:middle line:84% And you look at the original colonies. 00:03:17.712 --> 00:03:19.170 align:middle line:84% They weren't the original colonies, 00:03:19.170 --> 00:03:21.000 align:middle line:84% the people came and occupied the land 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:24.280 align:middle line:84% and created these opportunities for themselves here. 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:28.100 align:middle line:84% And if you look at those, they created this thing 00:03:28.100 --> 00:03:29.900 align:middle line:84% that we hold as a myth today, which 00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:33.750 align:middle line:84% is this thing of the New England town meeting, town hall. 00:03:33.750 --> 00:03:36.620 align:middle line:84% But if we're really serious about looking at that, 00:03:36.620 --> 00:03:39.275 align:middle line:84% there were some things that were very true about that. 00:03:39.275 --> 00:03:44.150 align:middle line:84% It was mostly open to men who were property owners. 00:03:44.150 --> 00:03:46.730 align:middle line:84% Most of these people who were men and property owners 00:03:46.730 --> 00:03:50.640 align:middle line:84% lived in enclaves that shared a religious belief. 00:03:50.640 --> 00:03:51.140 align:middle line:90% OK? 00:03:51.140 --> 00:03:55.610 align:middle line:84% So you take that as a core, and you then build your processes 00:03:55.610 --> 00:04:00.170 align:middle line:84% around that core that allow you to come to decisions. 00:04:00.170 --> 00:04:02.550 align:middle line:84% Over time, what we've been doing is saying, 00:04:02.550 --> 00:04:05.330 align:middle line:84% well, we don't want to be that exclusive. 00:04:05.330 --> 00:04:07.760 align:middle line:84% We want to let a few more people in. 00:04:07.760 --> 00:04:11.957 align:middle line:84% So we modify that a little bit more. 00:04:11.957 --> 00:04:13.790 align:middle line:84% And over time, that's what we've been doing. 00:04:13.790 --> 00:04:16.579 align:middle line:84% We've been modifying it more, modifying it more. 00:04:16.579 --> 00:04:19.740 align:middle line:84% And then you get to something like the presidential debates. 00:04:19.740 --> 00:04:21.118 align:middle line:90% And what do we have? 00:04:21.118 --> 00:04:22.910 align:middle line:84% What do we say is the way we let the public 00:04:22.910 --> 00:04:24.350 align:middle line:90% into this conversation? 00:04:24.350 --> 00:04:30.020 align:middle line:84% These televised town halls, they have no reality or connection 00:04:30.020 --> 00:04:32.180 align:middle line:90% to the complexity of who we are. 00:04:32.180 --> 00:04:37.250 align:middle line:84% But we hold on to them as our evidence 00:04:37.250 --> 00:04:42.800 align:middle line:84% that we are doing and engaging the public around a dialogue. 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:45.050 align:middle line:84% So this is what I mean is we don't have it. 00:04:45.050 --> 00:04:48.380 align:middle line:84% We actually don't have a functioning infrastructure 00:04:48.380 --> 00:04:52.560 align:middle line:84% for democracy, given the complexity of who we are. 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:53.810 align:middle line:90% So that's what I mean by that. 00:04:53.810 --> 00:04:55.190 align:middle line:90% It's not just about voting. 00:04:55.190 --> 00:04:58.070 align:middle line:84% It's the infrastructure that allows 00:04:58.070 --> 00:05:01.670 align:middle line:84% people to do the work that the public has to do in order 00:05:01.670 --> 00:05:04.920 align:middle line:90% for democracy to function. 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:06.420 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: The new infrastructure 00:05:06.420 --> 00:05:08.130 align:middle line:84% Professor McDowell is talking about 00:05:08.130 --> 00:05:11.580 align:middle line:84% here involves a shift away from the more traditional forms 00:05:11.580 --> 00:05:14.280 align:middle line:84% of civic engagement and participation. 00:05:14.280 --> 00:05:16.230 align:middle line:84% Professor McDowell's way involves 00:05:16.230 --> 00:05:19.720 align:middle line:84% looking at a given situation from multiple perspectives, 00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:22.290 align:middle line:84% and then spending time to reflect on our own values 00:05:22.290 --> 00:05:24.022 align:middle line:90% and the needs of our community. 00:05:24.022 --> 00:05:25.730 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: At one point in my life, 00:05:25.730 --> 00:05:29.410 align:middle line:84% I lived in Alaska way up above the Arctic Circle. 00:05:29.410 --> 00:05:32.560 align:middle line:84% I was associate superintendent of a new school system there 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:34.960 align:middle line:84% that was the size of the State of Indiana. 00:05:34.960 --> 00:05:38.030 align:middle line:84% It had 100 villages, 5,000 people, no roads. 00:05:38.030 --> 00:05:38.530 align:middle line:90% OK? 00:05:38.530 --> 00:05:42.710 align:middle line:84% So that's the context, predominantly Inupiat. 00:05:42.710 --> 00:05:46.270 align:middle line:84% And there was this one instance in the village where 00:05:46.270 --> 00:05:51.070 align:middle line:84% we had a teacher who was actually not performing 00:05:51.070 --> 00:05:52.120 align:middle line:90% very well in the school. 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:53.560 align:middle line:90% And we were really concerned. 00:05:53.560 --> 00:05:55.360 align:middle line:90% The principal was concerned. 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:56.800 align:middle line:90% We were concerned. 00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:01.420 align:middle line:84% And the teacher was Anglo in this predominantly Inupiat 00:06:01.420 --> 00:06:02.800 align:middle line:90% village. 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:05.770 align:middle line:84% And we had decided to remove the teacher, because this 00:06:05.770 --> 00:06:08.990 align:middle line:84% was the best thing for the kids, just wasn't performing well. 00:06:08.990 --> 00:06:11.020 align:middle line:84% And there was a meeting in the village, 00:06:11.020 --> 00:06:13.040 align:middle line:90% where we talked about that. 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:17.920 align:middle line:84% And there was a lot of resistance. 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:19.960 align:middle line:84% And so the superintendent asked me 00:06:19.960 --> 00:06:23.290 align:middle line:84% to go and try to find out what's going on. 00:06:23.290 --> 00:06:26.353 align:middle line:84% And so I went, in these little villages you could do it. 00:06:26.353 --> 00:06:27.520 align:middle line:90% I talked to almost everyone. 00:06:27.520 --> 00:06:28.300 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:06:28.300 --> 00:06:30.200 align:middle line:84% I talked to a lot of people in the village. 00:06:30.200 --> 00:06:32.830 align:middle line:90% And here's what was happening. 00:06:32.830 --> 00:06:37.390 align:middle line:84% The school was saying, this person is not a good teacher. 00:06:37.390 --> 00:06:40.450 align:middle line:84% And people were saying, this person is a good teacher. 00:06:40.450 --> 00:06:42.910 align:middle line:90% And we couldn't reconcile. 00:06:42.910 --> 00:06:48.280 align:middle line:84% But what we learned, when we started to talk to people, 00:06:48.280 --> 00:06:52.030 align:middle line:84% is that we were evaluating the teacher in very different ways. 00:06:52.030 --> 00:06:55.972 align:middle line:84% Inside the school, the good was really applied-- 00:06:55.972 --> 00:06:57.430 align:middle line:84% For the school system, the good was 00:06:57.430 --> 00:07:01.120 align:middle line:84% applied to how well is this person taking 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:06.670 align:middle line:84% care of the educational needs of the children. 00:07:06.670 --> 00:07:11.830 align:middle line:84% For some of the people in the community, teacher was a role. 00:07:11.830 --> 00:07:14.890 align:middle line:84% Good was the value to the community. 00:07:14.890 --> 00:07:17.980 align:middle line:84% She was good for the community because of other functions 00:07:17.980 --> 00:07:19.940 align:middle line:90% she played in the community. 00:07:19.940 --> 00:07:23.800 align:middle line:84% And so we had this totally different use of language. 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:26.033 align:middle line:84% And they knew that if she wasn't there as a teacher, 00:07:26.033 --> 00:07:26.950 align:middle line:90% she wouldn't be there. 00:07:26.950 --> 00:07:28.330 align:middle line:90% Because she'd have to leave. 00:07:28.330 --> 00:07:33.010 align:middle line:84% And so other values to the community would be lost. 00:07:33.010 --> 00:07:37.090 align:middle line:84% That kind of perspective taking, I think, is so required. 00:07:37.090 --> 00:07:41.030 align:middle line:84% And as we find ways to bring people together, 00:07:41.030 --> 00:07:44.050 align:middle line:84% we have to start to construct mechanisms 00:07:44.050 --> 00:07:46.090 align:middle line:84% that allow people to do that kind of reflection 00:07:46.090 --> 00:07:48.760 align:middle line:84% and that kind of perspective taking in relationship 00:07:48.760 --> 00:07:50.902 align:middle line:90% to the other. 00:07:50.902 --> 00:07:53.110 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: One of the challenges of getting people 00:07:53.110 --> 00:07:55.630 align:middle line:84% to practice tuning into different perspectives 00:07:55.630 --> 00:07:57.190 align:middle line:90% is a physical one. 00:07:57.190 --> 00:07:58.900 align:middle line:84% In our current political climate, 00:07:58.900 --> 00:08:01.300 align:middle line:84% how do we even get people with different perspectives 00:08:01.300 --> 00:08:03.520 align:middle line:90% in the same room? 00:08:03.520 --> 00:08:05.585 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: So we start this campaign 00:08:05.585 --> 00:08:07.390 align:middle line:90% where we're testing out now. 00:08:07.390 --> 00:08:09.577 align:middle line:84% It's called America's Path Forward. 00:08:09.577 --> 00:08:11.410 align:middle line:84% In the campaign, we're actually reaching out 00:08:11.410 --> 00:08:12.410 align:middle line:90% to people in the public. 00:08:12.410 --> 00:08:16.910 align:middle line:84% And we're asking them to do one thing, actually, two things. 00:08:16.910 --> 00:08:19.360 align:middle line:84% One is to donate the question they 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:24.040 align:middle line:84% have about the future of America and the experience 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:27.910 align:middle line:84% of their life that led them to their question. 00:08:27.910 --> 00:08:30.040 align:middle line:84% And then what we do is we bring people 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.820 align:middle line:84% who have similar questions, and sometimes not, 00:08:33.820 --> 00:08:36.460 align:middle line:90% into small conversations. 00:08:36.460 --> 00:08:38.710 align:middle line:84% In those conversations, all people 00:08:38.710 --> 00:08:44.230 align:middle line:84% are doing is sharing a question, sharing their experience. 00:08:44.230 --> 00:08:46.720 align:middle line:84% And what people find is, one, when 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:48.370 align:middle line:84% they go into these rooms with people 00:08:48.370 --> 00:08:50.350 align:middle line:84% who have similar questions, they're 00:08:50.350 --> 00:08:52.386 align:middle line:90% surprised at who's in the room. 00:08:52.386 --> 00:08:56.277 align:middle line:84% Because the thing that they hold as what's theirs, 00:08:56.277 --> 00:08:58.360 align:middle line:84% they're realizing that's a different set of people 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:00.050 align:middle line:90% who actually hold this too. 00:09:00.050 --> 00:09:02.270 align:middle line:84% And then when they have different experiences, 00:09:02.270 --> 00:09:04.480 align:middle line:84% they're beginning to realize, oh, 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:08.870 align:middle line:84% this question manifests itself in totally different ways. 00:09:08.870 --> 00:09:09.370 align:middle line:90% Right? 00:09:09.370 --> 00:09:12.100 align:middle line:84% It's the same question, but it's living out 00:09:12.100 --> 00:09:13.960 align:middle line:90% differently in our society. 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:15.820 align:middle line:84% And for me, this is a way of helping 00:09:15.820 --> 00:09:18.820 align:middle line:84% the public build its own kind of reflection and connection 00:09:18.820 --> 00:09:19.960 align:middle line:90% to others. 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:22.450 align:middle line:84% And what we try to get people to do 00:09:22.450 --> 00:09:23.920 align:middle line:84% at the end of these conversations 00:09:23.920 --> 00:09:27.040 align:middle line:84% is to say, if you could reframe this question so 00:09:27.040 --> 00:09:31.750 align:middle line:84% that if it was addressed, it would more likely attend 00:09:31.750 --> 00:09:34.360 align:middle line:84% to the different ways you are experiencing, 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:36.520 align:middle line:84% how would you reframe the question? 00:09:36.520 --> 00:09:39.010 align:middle line:84% Just getting people to start and think that way, 00:09:39.010 --> 00:09:42.490 align:middle line:84% holding the public as curious intellectual beings, 00:09:42.490 --> 00:09:46.870 align:middle line:84% and encouraging them in that, to say, yes, this is hard work. 00:09:46.870 --> 00:09:49.638 align:middle line:90% And yes, you can do it. 00:09:49.638 --> 00:09:51.930 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Professor McDowell has worked with a team 00:09:51.930 --> 00:09:55.530 align:middle line:84% to create a tool for having better public conversations. 00:09:55.530 --> 00:09:58.290 align:middle line:84% The tool is called the Civic Design Framework. 00:09:58.290 --> 00:10:00.030 align:middle line:84% I was curious about how the design 00:10:00.030 --> 00:10:02.863 align:middle line:84% element fits into this kind of community engagement work. 00:10:02.863 --> 00:10:03.780 align:middle line:90% CEASAR MCDOWELL: Yeah. 00:10:03.780 --> 00:10:06.630 align:middle line:84% So when I think about community engagement and design, 00:10:06.630 --> 00:10:08.130 align:middle line:84% the reason I put those two together 00:10:08.130 --> 00:10:11.880 align:middle line:84% is to talk about the purposefulness of how we go out 00:10:11.880 --> 00:10:14.580 align:middle line:84% in the world and create engagement processes. 00:10:14.580 --> 00:10:18.180 align:middle line:84% And that they actually are designed and can be designed. 00:10:18.180 --> 00:10:22.050 align:middle line:84% The main thing I'm trying to get people to pay attention to is, 00:10:22.050 --> 00:10:25.320 align:middle line:84% when you're putting together an engagement process, 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:28.260 align:middle line:84% you have the ability to construct it 00:10:28.260 --> 00:10:30.953 align:middle line:84% for certain kinds of outcomes and processes 00:10:30.953 --> 00:10:33.120 align:middle line:84% that you want to have happen and the connections you 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:33.953 align:middle line:90% want to have happen. 00:10:33.953 --> 00:10:36.430 align:middle line:84% And therefore, that's a design challenge. 00:10:36.430 --> 00:10:38.430 align:middle line:84% Given the population you work with and the issue 00:10:38.430 --> 00:10:39.930 align:middle line:84% you're going out to the public with, 00:10:39.930 --> 00:10:43.410 align:middle line:90% how then do you construct that? 00:10:43.410 --> 00:10:46.500 align:middle line:84% The sets of things that can happen, so that they actually 00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:52.140 align:middle line:84% allow you to bring people, not just closer together, but also, 00:10:52.140 --> 00:10:54.210 align:middle line:84% what I like to say is help people, the public, 00:10:54.210 --> 00:10:57.758 align:middle line:90% build its muscle for democracy. 00:10:57.758 --> 00:11:00.050 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: The Civic Design Framework gives us a way 00:11:00.050 --> 00:11:02.420 align:middle line:84% into these conversations that are central to having 00:11:02.420 --> 00:11:04.580 align:middle line:90% a truly functional democracy. 00:11:04.580 --> 00:11:06.470 align:middle line:84% Professor McDowell teaches the framework 00:11:06.470 --> 00:11:10.490 align:middle line:84% to students in 11.312, Engaging Community. 00:11:10.490 --> 00:11:13.490 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: We, really, use the Civic Design Framework 00:11:13.490 --> 00:11:17.360 align:middle line:84% as a tool for organizing thinking and projects. 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:20.790 align:middle line:84% And the framework really has two components to it. 00:11:20.790 --> 00:11:23.000 align:middle line:84% It's based on the notion that part 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:25.760 align:middle line:84% of the issue of bringing the public 00:11:25.760 --> 00:11:29.000 align:middle line:84% into any engagement process is we're not 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:33.103 align:middle line:84% clear about what conversation we're inviting them into. 00:11:33.103 --> 00:11:35.270 align:middle line:84% Our problem with our public discourse and engagement 00:11:35.270 --> 00:11:37.940 align:middle line:84% process is we often invite people into one conversation. 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:39.560 align:middle line:84% And then when they get in the room, 00:11:39.560 --> 00:11:41.550 align:middle line:90% we set them up for another. 00:11:41.550 --> 00:11:44.840 align:middle line:84% So we will say to them, tell them, imagine 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:46.940 align:middle line:90% a new Sarasota, Florida. 00:11:46.940 --> 00:11:51.410 align:middle line:84% And you go into the room, and you have three choices to make. 00:11:51.410 --> 00:11:53.690 align:middle line:84% So basically, you've set people up. 00:11:53.690 --> 00:11:58.340 align:middle line:84% And no wonder people are really dissatisfied. 00:11:58.340 --> 00:12:00.650 align:middle line:84% The other thing why it's important to know 00:12:00.650 --> 00:12:02.150 align:middle line:84% which kind of conversation you have, 00:12:02.150 --> 00:12:05.240 align:middle line:84% is that they each require something different. 00:12:05.240 --> 00:12:07.700 align:middle line:84% If you want to be in a framing conversation with someone, 00:12:07.700 --> 00:12:09.200 align:middle line:90% that's totally different. 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:12.860 align:middle line:84% You're using really different cognitive structures 00:12:12.860 --> 00:12:15.615 align:middle line:84% than if you're in the ideation process. 00:12:15.615 --> 00:12:17.240 align:middle line:84% Because in the ideation process, you're 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:19.920 align:middle line:90% trying to ignite imagination. 00:12:19.920 --> 00:12:21.470 align:middle line:84% In a framing conversation, you're 00:12:21.470 --> 00:12:23.840 align:middle line:84% really trying to deeply understand 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:26.100 align:middle line:84% experience and what's happening in the world. 00:12:26.100 --> 00:12:27.772 align:middle line:90% So those are very different. 00:12:27.772 --> 00:12:29.855 align:middle line:84% And so if you don't know what kind of conversation 00:12:29.855 --> 00:12:31.670 align:middle line:84% you want to have in public, you're 00:12:31.670 --> 00:12:35.200 align:middle line:84% not going to design it the right way. 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:36.700 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: What's really exciting 00:12:36.700 --> 00:12:39.070 align:middle line:84% about Professor McDowell's class is 00:12:39.070 --> 00:12:41.740 align:middle line:84% that he doesn't just teach the theory of this Civic Design 00:12:41.740 --> 00:12:42.580 align:middle line:90% Framework. 00:12:42.580 --> 00:12:45.790 align:middle line:84% Students are also invited to bring forward actual cases 00:12:45.790 --> 00:12:47.770 align:middle line:84% from the communities with which they're already 00:12:47.770 --> 00:12:50.140 align:middle line:84% engaging, where they can implement the design 00:12:50.140 --> 00:12:52.700 align:middle line:90% framework in real life. 00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:54.560 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: I always try to generate 00:12:54.560 --> 00:12:57.470 align:middle line:84% this opportunity for students to say, 00:12:57.470 --> 00:12:59.660 align:middle line:84% here are the things we want to work on. 00:12:59.660 --> 00:13:02.840 align:middle line:84% And then to negotiate among themselves which ones they 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:04.970 align:middle line:90% really want to move forward on. 00:13:04.970 --> 00:13:08.570 align:middle line:84% We did one in Mexico, and that one, it's actually interesting. 00:13:08.570 --> 00:13:11.270 align:middle line:84% It was a former alum of our department 00:13:11.270 --> 00:13:16.220 align:middle line:84% who had just stepped into this major role in a new government 00:13:16.220 --> 00:13:18.660 align:middle line:90% in a town in Mexico. 00:13:18.660 --> 00:13:23.400 align:middle line:84% And they had got there through a popular, all grassroot 00:13:23.400 --> 00:13:24.030 align:middle line:90% campaign. 00:13:24.030 --> 00:13:25.447 align:middle line:84% And now they wanted to figure out, 00:13:25.447 --> 00:13:27.855 align:middle line:84% how do we carry that into a structure, 00:13:27.855 --> 00:13:29.850 align:middle line:84% into governance, that actually allows 00:13:29.850 --> 00:13:31.710 align:middle line:90% to keep the public involved? 00:13:31.710 --> 00:13:33.405 align:middle line:84% And so the class was really helping them 00:13:33.405 --> 00:13:34.300 align:middle line:90% through that design. 00:13:34.300 --> 00:13:38.867 align:middle line:84% So it's always that some problem, some place, 00:13:38.867 --> 00:13:40.950 align:middle line:84% where people are trying to figure out how we broad 00:13:40.950 --> 00:13:43.938 align:middle line:84% and diversify how they're engaging with the public. 00:13:43.938 --> 00:13:45.945 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:13:45.945 --> 00:13:48.070 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: One of the realities of collaborating 00:13:48.070 --> 00:13:50.230 align:middle line:84% with real people in real communities 00:13:50.230 --> 00:13:52.450 align:middle line:84% is that practitioners often find themselves 00:13:52.450 --> 00:13:55.540 align:middle line:84% in situations where solutions are complicated 00:13:55.540 --> 00:13:57.850 align:middle line:90% and, sometimes, not complete. 00:13:57.850 --> 00:14:00.700 align:middle line:84% Professor McDowell offered some important words of wisdom 00:14:00.700 --> 00:14:03.015 align:middle line:84% for practitioners new to field work. 00:14:03.015 --> 00:14:05.140 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: I think it's not just this course, 00:14:05.140 --> 00:14:07.770 align:middle line:84% but in any real practice-based course, 00:14:07.770 --> 00:14:09.920 align:middle line:84% that puts you out into the field. 00:14:09.920 --> 00:14:12.530 align:middle line:84% There are a couple of things that you have to contend with. 00:14:12.530 --> 00:14:15.320 align:middle line:84% One, there are no complete solutions. 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:18.420 align:middle line:90% 00:14:18.420 --> 00:14:20.600 align:middle line:84% You have to learn how to make decisions 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:22.110 align:middle line:90% in the midst of ambiguity. 00:14:22.110 --> 00:14:24.470 align:middle line:84% You just, you have to do it, which 00:14:24.470 --> 00:14:26.540 align:middle line:84% means, for you internally, you have 00:14:26.540 --> 00:14:32.030 align:middle line:84% to have your own dialogue with yourself 00:14:32.030 --> 00:14:34.490 align:middle line:84% to understand how you're holding onto the things 00:14:34.490 --> 00:14:35.630 align:middle line:90% that you believe. 00:14:35.630 --> 00:14:39.390 align:middle line:84% Even if you're not able to really achieve them, 00:14:39.390 --> 00:14:42.050 align:middle line:84% within the midst of any one project or any one initiative, 00:14:42.050 --> 00:14:45.770 align:middle line:84% but you're still not letting it get to you. 00:14:45.770 --> 00:14:47.900 align:middle line:84% And one of the ways we talk about this 00:14:47.900 --> 00:14:50.810 align:middle line:84% is I make a real distinction in our class 00:14:50.810 --> 00:14:53.520 align:middle line:90% around how we talk about things. 00:14:53.520 --> 00:14:56.420 align:middle line:84% So for example, in our society, we're 00:14:56.420 --> 00:14:57.935 align:middle line:84% really good at what I would say is 00:14:57.935 --> 00:15:01.250 align:middle line:84% this kind of language of evaluation, how well something 00:15:01.250 --> 00:15:01.850 align:middle line:90% is or not. 00:15:01.850 --> 00:15:04.190 align:middle line:84% And we're also good at language of critique which 00:15:04.190 --> 00:15:05.760 align:middle line:90% is different than evaluation. 00:15:05.760 --> 00:15:09.870 align:middle line:84% And we're really good at this language of possibility. 00:15:09.870 --> 00:15:11.720 align:middle line:90% We're looking into the future. 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:14.090 align:middle line:84% What we're not really good at is talking 00:15:14.090 --> 00:15:18.170 align:middle line:84% about the reality, what I call the language of transition. 00:15:18.170 --> 00:15:22.010 align:middle line:84% And the reality is we have things we want to do. 00:15:22.010 --> 00:15:24.800 align:middle line:84% And as we're trying to do those things to change systems 00:15:24.800 --> 00:15:28.220 align:middle line:84% we want to be different, we have to support the systems 00:15:28.220 --> 00:15:29.860 align:middle line:90% that we're trying to change. 00:15:29.860 --> 00:15:32.180 align:middle line:84% And so we live in this in-between space, 00:15:32.180 --> 00:15:33.615 align:middle line:90% this space called Nepantla. 00:15:33.615 --> 00:15:34.490 align:middle line:90% That's where we live. 00:15:34.490 --> 00:15:36.427 align:middle line:84% And in that space, we have to learn 00:15:36.427 --> 00:15:37.510 align:middle line:90% how to talk to each other. 00:15:37.510 --> 00:15:39.177 align:middle line:84% And this is why I always use these terms 00:15:39.177 --> 00:15:40.820 align:middle line:90% like grace and stuff like that. 00:15:40.820 --> 00:15:43.895 align:middle line:84% Because of the recognition that that's where you are. 00:15:43.895 --> 00:15:46.700 align:middle line:84% So in my class, I try to support folks 00:15:46.700 --> 00:15:51.170 align:middle line:84% of being able to talk about that, about what they're living 00:15:51.170 --> 00:15:53.240 align:middle line:84% with in the middle, what they're having 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:56.218 align:middle line:84% to hold onto that they don't necessarily feel good about. 00:15:56.218 --> 00:15:58.010 align:middle line:84% But they know they have to do it as they're 00:15:58.010 --> 00:15:59.260 align:middle line:90% trying to do this other thing. 00:15:59.260 --> 00:16:02.300 align:middle line:84% And to support them through that kind of conversation. 00:16:02.300 --> 00:16:05.120 align:middle line:84% This is a reflection of the transition 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:07.290 align:middle line:84% you're living in, and just a recognition of that, 00:16:07.290 --> 00:16:11.090 align:middle line:84% and honoring it, and letting it be OK. 00:16:11.090 --> 00:16:16.240 align:middle line:84% It's almost being able to have a dialogue of forgiveness 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:16.880 align:middle line:90% with yourself. 00:16:16.880 --> 00:16:19.273 align:middle line:90% 00:16:19.273 --> 00:16:21.690 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: I wanted to know what these engagements look 00:16:21.690 --> 00:16:23.500 align:middle line:90% like in practice. 00:16:23.500 --> 00:16:25.440 align:middle line:84% So Professor McDowell shared with me 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:28.240 align:middle line:84% one example that took place in my very own city of Cambridge, 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:29.760 align:middle line:90% Massachusetts. 00:16:29.760 --> 00:16:32.100 align:middle line:84% The dialogue was around domestic violence 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:34.830 align:middle line:84% and how the city could better address the issue. 00:16:34.830 --> 00:16:36.690 align:middle line:90% And the engagement was simple. 00:16:36.690 --> 00:16:39.840 align:middle line:84% Professor McDowell and his team asked residents of Cambridge 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:43.610 align:middle line:84% to donate a question they had about domestic violence. 00:16:43.610 --> 00:16:45.740 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: Think about domestic violence. 00:16:45.740 --> 00:16:48.980 align:middle line:84% That is not a public conversation. 00:16:48.980 --> 00:16:51.740 align:middle line:84% That's not a thing that people talk about. 00:16:51.740 --> 00:16:54.950 align:middle line:84% Because we have a structure of all 00:16:54.950 --> 00:16:56.800 align:middle line:84% you have to do is donate a question, 00:16:56.800 --> 00:16:59.800 align:middle line:84% a group of young people from Cambridge Rindge and Latin 00:16:59.800 --> 00:17:02.590 align:middle line:84% set up a booth at Harvard Square. 00:17:02.590 --> 00:17:06.069 align:middle line:84% They put up a board, and they made cookies. 00:17:06.069 --> 00:17:10.089 align:middle line:84% And they just basically had a cookie for your question. 00:17:10.089 --> 00:17:12.520 align:middle line:84% And people would write their question 00:17:12.520 --> 00:17:15.810 align:middle line:84% about domestic violence and put it on board and get a cookie. 00:17:15.810 --> 00:17:18.970 align:middle line:84% And then people start having conversations 00:17:18.970 --> 00:17:24.239 align:middle line:84% in public about what's on the board and what they're hearing. 00:17:24.239 --> 00:17:26.364 align:middle line:84% So you're taking something that we don't talk about 00:17:26.364 --> 00:17:27.460 align:middle line:90% and moving forward. 00:17:27.460 --> 00:17:28.990 align:middle line:84% At the same time, what we did is we 00:17:28.990 --> 00:17:31.120 align:middle line:84% took all the questions that came in, 00:17:31.120 --> 00:17:33.950 align:middle line:90% printed them out very large. 00:17:33.950 --> 00:17:37.570 align:middle line:84% And we had a space in Cambridge that we could use, 00:17:37.570 --> 00:17:41.900 align:middle line:84% where we put all 2,000-something questions up on the wall. 00:17:41.900 --> 00:17:43.490 align:middle line:84% And we created a public event where 00:17:43.490 --> 00:17:46.790 align:middle line:84% people would come in, read the questions, 00:17:46.790 --> 00:17:48.320 align:middle line:84% and sit down to have conversations 00:17:48.320 --> 00:17:51.087 align:middle line:84% with each other about what they were seeing and hearing. 00:17:51.087 --> 00:17:52.670 align:middle line:84% And then we had people from the public 00:17:52.670 --> 00:17:54.060 align:middle line:84% come in and say, let's figure out, 00:17:54.060 --> 00:17:56.060 align:middle line:84% can we organize these questions in certain kinds 00:17:56.060 --> 00:17:57.423 align:middle line:90% of themes and issues? 00:17:57.423 --> 00:17:59.090 align:middle line:84% And then we had conversation with people 00:17:59.090 --> 00:18:01.310 align:middle line:90% about themes and issues. 00:18:01.310 --> 00:18:05.840 align:middle line:84% So all of this is taking something we don't talk about 00:18:05.840 --> 00:18:08.870 align:middle line:84% and creating an opportunity for people to do it. 00:18:08.870 --> 00:18:13.380 align:middle line:84% Because you're, in some sense, recognizing that everyone 00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:16.080 align:middle line:90% has something to say about this. 00:18:16.080 --> 00:18:18.238 align:middle line:84% But if you do it in the right way, 00:18:18.238 --> 00:18:20.280 align:middle line:84% you don't try to tell them what they have to say, 00:18:20.280 --> 00:18:22.110 align:middle line:84% or how they have to say it, you just 00:18:22.110 --> 00:18:26.040 align:middle line:84% create an opportunity that equalizes voices. 00:18:26.040 --> 00:18:26.685 align:middle line:90% People step up. 00:18:26.685 --> 00:18:29.350 align:middle line:90% 00:18:29.350 --> 00:18:32.440 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: This idea about equalizing voices and bringing 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:34.450 align:middle line:84% everyone to the table is incredibly 00:18:34.450 --> 00:18:36.940 align:middle line:84% important in Professor McDowell's work. 00:18:36.940 --> 00:18:39.490 align:middle line:84% One specific aspect of his design framework 00:18:39.490 --> 00:18:41.710 align:middle line:90% speaks directly to this idea. 00:18:41.710 --> 00:18:43.750 align:middle line:84% It's built on the notion of equity. 00:18:43.750 --> 00:18:47.095 align:middle line:84% And it's a concept he calls designing for the margins. 00:18:47.095 --> 00:18:48.470 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: The reason I use 00:18:48.470 --> 00:18:50.170 align:middle line:84% this concept of design for the margins 00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:54.280 align:middle line:84% is our default in everything we do in design 00:18:54.280 --> 00:18:58.420 align:middle line:84% is designed for the middle, where most people are. 00:18:58.420 --> 00:19:00.310 align:middle line:84% And we do that because we want to scale. 00:19:00.310 --> 00:19:01.720 align:middle line:90% We want things to grow fast. 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.400 align:middle line:84% We want to make sure we're taking care of a lot of people. 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:06.550 align:middle line:84% But the thing about when you design 00:19:06.550 --> 00:19:08.020 align:middle line:84% for those that are in the middle, 00:19:08.020 --> 00:19:10.450 align:middle line:84% you're mostly designing for people 00:19:10.450 --> 00:19:14.860 align:middle line:84% who, more or less, can operate within systems that are there. 00:19:14.860 --> 00:19:17.710 align:middle line:84% And then what that ends up doing is pushing people margins 00:19:17.710 --> 00:19:20.101 align:middle line:90% further and further out. 00:19:20.101 --> 00:19:23.060 align:middle line:84% And as other things in our systems fail, 00:19:23.060 --> 00:19:26.115 align:middle line:84% we end up putting more and more people into that margin. 00:19:26.115 --> 00:19:28.490 align:middle line:84% And by the margins, I mean those who 00:19:28.490 --> 00:19:31.440 align:middle line:84% are living with the failures of the society. 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:35.110 align:middle line:84% And so if we're going to attend to that, 00:19:35.110 --> 00:19:37.120 align:middle line:84% and actually bring their voices in, 00:19:37.120 --> 00:19:41.980 align:middle line:84% we have to first design opportunities and engagement 00:19:41.980 --> 00:19:44.650 align:middle line:84% processes that work for them first. 00:19:44.650 --> 00:19:47.500 align:middle line:84% Because those in the middle will find their way into that. 00:19:47.500 --> 00:19:50.260 align:middle line:84% Because they have the resources, the opportunity. 00:19:50.260 --> 00:19:52.430 align:middle line:84% They know how to negotiate the system. 00:19:52.430 --> 00:19:55.480 align:middle line:84% The other thing when you design for the margins you do 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.180 align:middle line:84% is, because they're clearly living 00:19:58.180 --> 00:20:00.230 align:middle line:84% with the failures of the systems, 00:20:00.230 --> 00:20:03.400 align:middle line:84% you're able to design around the things that would normally 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:05.310 align:middle line:90% keep people out. 00:20:05.310 --> 00:20:10.852 align:middle line:84% So it's a purposeful thing that actually benefits more people. 00:20:10.852 --> 00:20:12.810 align:middle line:84% If you actually do that-- and we have instances 00:20:12.810 --> 00:20:17.380 align:middle line:84% of that in everyday life that shows that, some physical ones, 00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:19.780 align:middle line:90% like the curb cut. 00:20:19.780 --> 00:20:21.970 align:middle line:84% The curb cut was a thing that came up, 00:20:21.970 --> 00:20:26.080 align:middle line:84% very particular movement from the disabilities community 00:20:26.080 --> 00:20:29.050 align:middle line:84% decades ago to create some access, 00:20:29.050 --> 00:20:30.773 align:middle line:84% and a lot of fights to get it done, 00:20:30.773 --> 00:20:32.190 align:middle line:84% but the interesting thing about is 00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:34.750 align:middle line:84% is you look at it now and say, well, who benefits from that? 00:20:34.750 --> 00:20:37.900 align:middle line:84% That's a design for a very small population of the country. 00:20:37.900 --> 00:20:39.390 align:middle line:90% Who benefits from it? 00:20:39.390 --> 00:20:41.020 align:middle line:90% Who uses it? 00:20:41.020 --> 00:20:44.080 align:middle line:84% Well, everybody that rides a bicycle, pushes a trailer, 00:20:44.080 --> 00:20:45.492 align:middle line:90% carries a grocery cart. 00:20:45.492 --> 00:20:46.450 align:middle line:90% SARAH HANSEN: Stroller. 00:20:46.450 --> 00:20:47.408 align:middle line:90% CEASAR MCDOWELL: Right? 00:20:47.408 --> 00:20:49.253 align:middle line:84% Strollers, it's all there, right? 00:20:49.253 --> 00:20:50.920 align:middle line:84% But that's not what it was designed for. 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:53.920 align:middle line:84% It was designed for the margin, but yet, 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:57.310 align:middle line:84% all these central activities that people are involved in 00:20:57.310 --> 00:20:59.950 align:middle line:84% and what I would call the middle, 00:20:59.950 --> 00:21:02.397 align:middle line:84% are able to benefit from that too. 00:21:02.397 --> 00:21:04.480 align:middle line:84% The interesting thing about it, and why I actually 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.630 align:middle line:84% like to use an example, is what have you 00:21:07.630 --> 00:21:12.820 align:middle line:84% noticed about changes in curb cuts in the last decade? 00:21:12.820 --> 00:21:15.250 align:middle line:90% They have bumps on them now. 00:21:15.250 --> 00:21:16.450 align:middle line:90% They have texture to them. 00:21:16.450 --> 00:21:21.970 align:middle line:84% And they have texture to them, because it helps people 00:21:21.970 --> 00:21:26.320 align:middle line:84% without sight to know if they're coming to a corner. 00:21:26.320 --> 00:21:28.390 align:middle line:84% So the thing about designing for the margins, 00:21:28.390 --> 00:21:31.450 align:middle line:84% it's not the thing you've achieve. 00:21:31.450 --> 00:21:33.700 align:middle line:84% It's a thing that you're always working at. 00:21:33.700 --> 00:21:38.230 align:middle line:84% Because the margins will keep emerging. 00:21:38.230 --> 00:21:40.220 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: If you're anything like me, 00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:43.240 align:middle line:84% you may be thinking to yourself that this is exactly 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:45.250 align:middle line:84% the kind of work that our country 00:21:45.250 --> 00:21:48.490 align:middle line:84% and, really, our planet could use more of, better, 00:21:48.490 --> 00:21:52.240 align:middle line:84% more open, more connected ways to engage groups of people 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:55.330 align:middle line:84% around complex issues, and a design framework that 00:21:55.330 --> 00:21:58.190 align:middle line:84% allows us to keep working at those issues. 00:21:58.190 --> 00:22:00.670 align:middle line:84% Part of what I love about Professor McDowell's work 00:22:00.670 --> 00:22:03.850 align:middle line:84% is that it's grounded in doing the hard work of community 00:22:03.850 --> 00:22:06.253 align:middle line:90% in community together. 00:22:06.253 --> 00:22:08.420 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: The way that our systems are set up 00:22:08.420 --> 00:22:12.320 align:middle line:84% right now, they really are designed to keep people apart, 00:22:12.320 --> 00:22:14.300 align:middle line:84% to disconnect people from each other, 00:22:14.300 --> 00:22:15.800 align:middle line:90% or groups from each other. 00:22:15.800 --> 00:22:18.410 align:middle line:84% And they draw these false dichotomies. 00:22:18.410 --> 00:22:21.200 align:middle line:84% But in reality, people live with a much more complex set 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:22.550 align:middle line:90% of things. 00:22:22.550 --> 00:22:25.580 align:middle line:84% So for example, you take the movement for Black lives. 00:22:25.580 --> 00:22:29.480 align:middle line:84% And you take the way that, in a very powerful way, using 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:31.880 align:middle line:84% the notions of defund the police, and [? some other ?] 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:35.630 align:middle line:84% views, and others to change what policing is. 00:22:35.630 --> 00:22:40.220 align:middle line:84% Because they have seen that evidence over and over again 00:22:40.220 --> 00:22:46.170 align:middle line:84% of the devaluing of Black lives within the midst of the police. 00:22:46.170 --> 00:22:50.220 align:middle line:84% However, even with that same experience, knowledge base, 00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:52.890 align:middle line:84% you can go into the Black community, 00:22:52.890 --> 00:22:55.380 align:middle line:84% and people have very different feelings 00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:58.650 align:middle line:84% about do we defund the police or not? 00:22:58.650 --> 00:23:02.310 align:middle line:84% The trading off of their I know there's a risk, 00:23:02.310 --> 00:23:04.530 align:middle line:84% but that risk is in here, and it's out there, 00:23:04.530 --> 00:23:06.130 align:middle line:84% and I don't know how to balance it. 00:23:06.130 --> 00:23:08.630 align:middle line:84% I don't know what to do about that. 00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:12.360 align:middle line:84% When we put things in an either or, then 00:23:12.360 --> 00:23:16.680 align:middle line:84% we really lose the opportunity to really connect people, 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:18.570 align:middle line:84% to create some opportunity for people 00:23:18.570 --> 00:23:23.430 align:middle line:84% to acknowledge what's the complexity out there. 00:23:23.430 --> 00:23:25.890 align:middle line:84% And how do you go through that in a way that 00:23:25.890 --> 00:23:27.540 align:middle line:90% doesn't leave people behind? 00:23:27.540 --> 00:23:30.470 align:middle line:84% Or leave them to the side, I should say. 00:23:30.470 --> 00:23:32.490 align:middle line:90% You can use policing as some. 00:23:32.490 --> 00:23:35.290 align:middle line:84% You could use what's happening with vaccinations as another. 00:23:35.290 --> 00:23:37.740 align:middle line:84% There's a lot of things that are just structured. 00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:40.740 align:middle line:84% And the way we talk about them in the public 00:23:40.740 --> 00:23:43.620 align:middle line:84% doesn't recognize one thing that we know is really true. 00:23:43.620 --> 00:23:45.590 align:middle line:84% Our values kind of lie on a continuum. 00:23:45.590 --> 00:23:49.710 align:middle line:84% And what we're always doing is trading off one for the other. 00:23:49.710 --> 00:23:51.990 align:middle line:90% We're going back and forth. 00:23:51.990 --> 00:23:53.765 align:middle line:84% People looking at things, and they're 00:23:53.765 --> 00:23:56.520 align:middle line:84% looking at that value versus another value, 00:23:56.520 --> 00:23:58.590 align:middle line:90% versus another value. 00:23:58.590 --> 00:24:00.850 align:middle line:84% And why that's important for public conversations 00:24:00.850 --> 00:24:05.090 align:middle line:84% is, if we can step away from saying, your value's this 00:24:05.090 --> 00:24:07.170 align:middle line:84% and mine is that, and you can get people 00:24:07.170 --> 00:24:09.686 align:middle line:84% in the space to realize, oh, this is how you're trading off 00:24:09.686 --> 00:24:10.530 align:middle line:90% this set of values. 00:24:10.530 --> 00:24:12.660 align:middle line:84% And this is how I'm trading them off. 00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:14.730 align:middle line:84% Then what you realize is that people are holding 00:24:14.730 --> 00:24:17.830 align:middle line:84% --have within them-- the same values. 00:24:17.830 --> 00:24:21.750 align:middle line:84% They really are just shifting and weighing them differently 00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:22.630 align:middle line:90% at different times. 00:24:22.630 --> 00:24:25.560 align:middle line:84% And that creates more of an opportunity for people, 00:24:25.560 --> 00:24:26.700 align:middle line:90% at least, to see the other. 00:24:26.700 --> 00:24:28.290 align:middle line:90% They may not agree. 00:24:28.290 --> 00:24:30.040 align:middle line:90% But they begin to see the other. 00:24:30.040 --> 00:24:34.870 align:middle line:84% And that's, in our society, where so many groups of people 00:24:34.870 --> 00:24:37.170 align:middle line:84% have been so dehumanized, our first step 00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:41.035 align:middle line:90% is to let people be seen. 00:24:41.035 --> 00:24:42.910 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Through all the social upheaval 00:24:42.910 --> 00:24:45.460 align:middle line:84% and the many defining events of 2020, 00:24:45.460 --> 00:24:48.460 align:middle line:84% Professor McDowell has continued to spend a lot of his time 00:24:48.460 --> 00:24:50.720 align:middle line:90% engaging with students. 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:53.280 align:middle line:84% He often works with smaller class sizes. 00:24:53.280 --> 00:24:55.370 align:middle line:84% So that he can develop the close relationships 00:24:55.370 --> 00:24:57.400 align:middle line:90% he feels are essential. 00:24:57.400 --> 00:24:59.140 align:middle line:84% This kind of close contact allows 00:24:59.140 --> 00:25:01.960 align:middle line:84% him to see into students' lives beyond the classroom. 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:04.570 align:middle line:84% And he shared with me some insights into what he's seeing 00:25:04.570 --> 00:25:07.380 align:middle line:84% and what educators can do to help. 00:25:07.380 --> 00:25:11.300 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: I think students are dealing with a lot 00:25:11.300 --> 00:25:11.840 align:middle line:90% right now. 00:25:11.840 --> 00:25:13.570 align:middle line:84% And it's not just because of COVID. 00:25:13.570 --> 00:25:17.143 align:middle line:84% I think our society is in a huge transition. 00:25:17.143 --> 00:25:18.560 align:middle line:84% I can't tell you how many students 00:25:18.560 --> 00:25:25.860 align:middle line:84% I have right now who don't feel connected to their families 00:25:25.860 --> 00:25:28.710 align:middle line:84% anymore because of what's going on politically 00:25:28.710 --> 00:25:32.350 align:middle line:84% in this country, that disruption that people are sitting with. 00:25:32.350 --> 00:25:36.370 align:middle line:84% And so then you ask, how do we, as educators, 00:25:36.370 --> 00:25:38.170 align:middle line:84% knowing they're sitting with this, 00:25:38.170 --> 00:25:42.400 align:middle line:84% help them to actually move forward 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:44.590 align:middle line:84% in a way that is going to allow them 00:25:44.590 --> 00:25:48.580 align:middle line:84% to be generative with other people in the communities they 00:25:48.580 --> 00:25:51.580 align:middle line:84% work with and also find their own path? 00:25:51.580 --> 00:25:57.710 align:middle line:84% And so for me, teaching always has to be grounded in reality. 00:25:57.710 --> 00:26:00.500 align:middle line:84% You have to be working with others who are actually 00:26:00.500 --> 00:26:02.660 align:middle line:84% dealing with the problem, or the issue, 00:26:02.660 --> 00:26:04.712 align:middle line:84% or who want to do something, and you just 00:26:04.712 --> 00:26:05.670 align:middle line:90% have to work with them. 00:26:05.670 --> 00:26:10.480 align:middle line:84% And it really is about lifting up and supporting people 00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:13.430 align:middle line:84% through that process of working with others 00:26:13.430 --> 00:26:15.860 align:middle line:90% and working with yourself. 00:26:15.860 --> 00:26:17.390 align:middle line:84% In some ways, a lot of my teaching 00:26:17.390 --> 00:26:20.600 align:middle line:84% is, yes, it's about substantive issues. 00:26:20.600 --> 00:26:24.740 align:middle line:84% But it is also about helping people develop, not only 00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:28.250 align:middle line:84% just a theory or practice, but a reflective strategy 00:26:28.250 --> 00:26:30.800 align:middle line:84% for themselves as they move through their careers 00:26:30.800 --> 00:26:33.735 align:middle line:90% and through their lives. 00:26:33.735 --> 00:26:36.110 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: There's a lot of excitement about Professor 00:26:36.110 --> 00:26:37.890 align:middle line:90% McDowell's work and teaching. 00:26:37.890 --> 00:26:40.070 align:middle line:84% So we had some really wonderful listener questions 00:26:40.070 --> 00:26:41.660 align:middle line:90% sent in for this episode. 00:26:41.660 --> 00:26:45.050 align:middle line:84% And we're excited to share two of them with you now. 00:26:45.050 --> 00:26:47.030 align:middle line:90% Here's one a listener sent in. 00:26:47.030 --> 00:26:49.610 align:middle line:84% For people who are used to having privileged access 00:26:49.610 --> 00:26:52.790 align:middle line:84% to policy discussion and implementation spaces, 00:26:52.790 --> 00:26:55.100 align:middle line:84% what habits should we watch out for? 00:26:55.100 --> 00:26:58.160 align:middle line:84% Are there subconscious attitudes or behaviors 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:02.344 align:middle line:84% that get in the way of including historically excluded people? 00:27:02.344 --> 00:27:05.100 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: That's a really beautiful question. 00:27:05.100 --> 00:27:07.600 align:middle line:84% I think the number one habit we have 00:27:07.600 --> 00:27:10.050 align:middle line:84% to watch out for is a habit that we actually 00:27:10.050 --> 00:27:13.060 align:middle line:90% understand the issue. 00:27:13.060 --> 00:27:15.840 align:middle line:90% That we fully understand it. 00:27:15.840 --> 00:27:20.150 align:middle line:84% We have to make space for people to be 00:27:20.150 --> 00:27:23.240 align:middle line:84% able to reframe the issues with understanding. 00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:28.170 align:middle line:84% If we hold onto our frame, from that position, 00:27:28.170 --> 00:27:31.810 align:middle line:84% we will never really fully be able to include others. 00:27:31.810 --> 00:27:35.520 align:middle line:84% So for me, that's the critical issue. 00:27:35.520 --> 00:27:39.220 align:middle line:84% And that means we have to make time and space for that. 00:27:39.220 --> 00:27:41.520 align:middle line:84% And that pushes against so much of what 00:27:41.520 --> 00:27:43.852 align:middle line:84% we who are in these these policy areas 00:27:43.852 --> 00:27:45.810 align:middle line:84% think about is because we try to do everything. 00:27:45.810 --> 00:27:46.935 align:middle line:90% We've got to do everything. 00:27:46.935 --> 00:27:49.360 align:middle line:84% We got to do it, and we've got to get it right. 00:27:49.360 --> 00:27:54.700 align:middle line:84% And I think the mantra should be we're going to do something. 00:27:54.700 --> 00:27:56.700 align:middle line:84% We're not going to get it quite right. 00:27:56.700 --> 00:27:59.190 align:middle line:84% You can take some time to maybe understand 00:27:59.190 --> 00:28:00.395 align:middle line:90% it a little different. 00:28:00.395 --> 00:28:01.770 align:middle line:84% We're going to do something then. 00:28:01.770 --> 00:28:03.180 align:middle line:84% We're not going to get it quite right. 00:28:03.180 --> 00:28:05.500 align:middle line:84% We're going to take time to understand it differently. 00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:08.640 align:middle line:84% It's like-- because that's the reality. 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:10.260 align:middle line:90% It is the reality. 00:28:10.260 --> 00:28:13.460 align:middle line:90% So we have to acknowledge it. 00:28:13.460 --> 00:28:16.520 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: And to close, one more listener question, 00:28:16.520 --> 00:28:20.170 align:middle line:84% one that very well may have been on your mind while listening. 00:28:20.170 --> 00:28:23.230 align:middle line:84% Is it easier or harder to have difficult conversations 00:28:23.230 --> 00:28:26.530 align:middle line:84% in small groups or large town hall settings? 00:28:26.530 --> 00:28:28.840 align:middle line:90% How do we scale up dialogues? 00:28:28.840 --> 00:28:32.200 align:middle line:84% How do you adjust the questions, the tone, the pacing 00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:35.770 align:middle line:84% to accommodate large and diverse audiences? 00:28:35.770 --> 00:28:37.270 align:middle line:84% CEASAR MCDOWELL: I'm a firm believer 00:28:37.270 --> 00:28:42.790 align:middle line:84% in small scale dialogues to deal with really difficult issues. 00:28:42.790 --> 00:28:46.780 align:middle line:84% If we try to do it in a large scale audience, we, one, 00:28:46.780 --> 00:28:48.640 align:middle line:84% you can't have everyone's voice in there, 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.232 align:middle line:84% which means you're inevitably silencing certain people. 00:28:52.232 --> 00:28:54.190 align:middle line:84% And I'm not saying don't do large-scale events, 00:28:54.190 --> 00:28:56.380 align:middle line:84% because it's good sometimes just to sit in a place 00:28:56.380 --> 00:28:59.020 align:middle line:84% and listen, and hear, and watch others. 00:28:59.020 --> 00:29:01.390 align:middle line:90% That has value. 00:29:01.390 --> 00:29:03.550 align:middle line:84% But the transformational piece [? everyone is, ?] I 00:29:03.550 --> 00:29:08.260 align:middle line:84% think is being in small space dialogues with others. 00:29:08.260 --> 00:29:11.860 align:middle line:84% I think we need work at turning our technologies 00:29:11.860 --> 00:29:16.090 align:middle line:84% and designing our communication systems to support that kind 00:29:16.090 --> 00:29:17.860 align:middle line:90% of listening and conversation. 00:29:17.860 --> 00:29:19.390 align:middle line:90% And that's not what we have. 00:29:19.390 --> 00:29:21.218 align:middle line:90% They're driven by other things. 00:29:21.218 --> 00:29:22.760 align:middle line:84% That's one of the problems with them. 00:29:22.760 --> 00:29:25.960 align:middle line:84% So I think we can get there if we 00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:29.600 align:middle line:84% shift our intention, our design intention, to that. 00:29:29.600 --> 00:29:34.090 align:middle line:84% And the reality of it is all of our incentives 00:29:34.090 --> 00:29:37.566 align:middle line:84% for creating things like that are in the opposite direction. 00:29:37.566 --> 00:29:38.710 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:29:38.710 --> 00:29:41.177 align:middle line:84% It's like, it's really hard to build technologies 00:29:41.177 --> 00:29:42.760 align:middle line:84% that are designed for the margins that 00:29:42.760 --> 00:29:44.650 align:middle line:90% are going to actually scale. 00:29:44.650 --> 00:29:47.860 align:middle line:84% Because you have all these other things going on. 00:29:47.860 --> 00:29:49.100 align:middle line:90% It's a challenge. 00:29:49.100 --> 00:29:51.160 align:middle line:84% I don't think it's a challenge that can't be met. 00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:55.705 align:middle line:90% 00:29:55.705 --> 00:29:57.830 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: If you're interested in learning more 00:29:57.830 --> 00:29:59.990 align:middle line:84% about Professor Ceasar McDowell's work 00:29:59.990 --> 00:30:02.960 align:middle line:84% or teaching with his open educational resources, 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:05.600 align:middle line:84% you can check out his course 11:312, 00:30:05.600 --> 00:30:09.680 align:middle line:84% Engaging Community on our MIT OpenCourseWare website. 00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:12.890 align:middle line:84% You can also listen to his podcast, We Who Engage. 00:30:12.890 --> 00:30:16.540 align:middle line:84% It's available wherever you listen to podcasts. 00:30:16.540 --> 00:30:20.250 align:middle line:84% Thanks for tuning in for our second season of Chalk Radio. 00:30:20.250 --> 00:30:22.320 align:middle line:84% We hope you enjoyed these episodes 00:30:22.320 --> 00:30:25.350 align:middle line:84% and will consider sharing this or any of our other episodes 00:30:25.350 --> 00:30:28.600 align:middle line:84% with a friend, family member, or colleague. 00:30:28.600 --> 00:30:30.670 align:middle line:84% We have more in store for Season 3 00:30:30.670 --> 00:30:33.610 align:middle line:84% and are already working hard to bring you more episodes 00:30:33.610 --> 00:30:36.790 align:middle line:84% to inspire your teaching and learning when Chalk Radio 00:30:36.790 --> 00:30:38.500 align:middle line:90% returns in the fall. 00:30:38.500 --> 00:30:41.210 align:middle line:84% Signing off from Cambridge, Massachusetts, 00:30:41.210 --> 00:30:44.290 align:middle line:84% I'm Sarah Hansen from MIT OpenCourseWare. 00:30:44.290 --> 00:30:47.790 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:30:47.790 --> 00:31:02.790 align:middle line:90% 00:31:02.790 --> 00:31:05.450 align:middle line:90% [AUDIO BUMPER] Ma, park the car.