1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,470 [SQUEAKING] 2 00:00:02,470 --> 00:00:03,952 [RUSTLING] 3 00:00:03,952 --> 00:00:05,928 [CLICKING] 4 00:00:20,383 --> 00:00:22,050 STUDENT PRESENTER: Thank you, everybody. 5 00:00:22,050 --> 00:00:25,880 I'm going to talk today about the Confederated 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:31,460 Salish-Kootenai tribe, which I'll refer to as CSKT, tribe's 7 00:00:31,460 --> 00:00:35,120 compact with the state of Montana, to which the US 8 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:36,950 government is also party. 9 00:00:36,950 --> 00:00:39,020 This compact kind of evolved over 10 00:00:39,020 --> 00:00:41,780 the course of a few decades and actually just started 11 00:00:41,780 --> 00:00:43,070 to be implemented this year. 12 00:00:43,070 --> 00:00:46,220 So we'll talk about how they got there. 13 00:00:46,220 --> 00:00:48,232 Just to start, this is Montana. 14 00:00:48,232 --> 00:00:50,690 These are the various water basins in the state of Montana. 15 00:00:50,690 --> 00:00:52,460 This little area in the corner here 16 00:00:52,460 --> 00:00:53,627 is the Flathead reservation. 17 00:00:53,627 --> 00:00:56,570 So it's actually a fairly large chunk of land. 18 00:00:56,570 --> 00:00:59,690 The water rights that we're talking about today 19 00:00:59,690 --> 00:01:03,082 really cover the entire region of Northwest Montana, mostly 20 00:01:03,082 --> 00:01:04,790 west of the Continental Divide, but there 21 00:01:04,790 --> 00:01:06,207 are some rights that were affected 22 00:01:06,207 --> 00:01:08,350 by the treaty that actually are on the east side 23 00:01:08,350 --> 00:01:10,440 of the Continental Divide. 24 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,830 So we're going to talk about the history, the kind of way 25 00:01:13,830 --> 00:01:15,870 that these water rights came about, 26 00:01:15,870 --> 00:01:17,550 some of the context of the negotiations. 27 00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:19,830 Talk a little bit about the negotiation topics, 28 00:01:19,830 --> 00:01:20,958 then where they ended up. 29 00:01:20,958 --> 00:01:22,500 And even as I go through the history, 30 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:27,870 I hope to explain, because some of the disputed rights, a lot 31 00:01:27,870 --> 00:01:30,550 of the questions go back to the origins of those rights, 32 00:01:30,550 --> 00:01:32,820 I hope to bring up some of the different disputes 33 00:01:32,820 --> 00:01:37,260 in the historical context and also kind of begin 34 00:01:37,260 --> 00:01:40,530 to shed light on the present status of them 35 00:01:40,530 --> 00:01:42,780 and how they came up with the negotiations based 36 00:01:42,780 --> 00:01:44,380 on that context. 37 00:01:44,380 --> 00:01:47,070 So to quickly look a little bit at the history, 38 00:01:47,070 --> 00:01:50,250 the Treaty of Hellgate, which is the treaty that 39 00:01:50,250 --> 00:01:52,800 created the Flathead reservation in Northwest Montana, 40 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,630 it's about a million and a quarter acres, 41 00:01:54,630 --> 00:01:59,160 was signed in 1855 by representatives of the US 42 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,940 as well as the tribes that were party to the treaty. 43 00:02:02,940 --> 00:02:06,150 The treaty gave them the rights to that land, 44 00:02:06,150 --> 00:02:09,840 but it also included an unusual line 45 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,900 which has become very important that was not 46 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:14,670 included in any of the other treaties 47 00:02:14,670 --> 00:02:16,200 that the US government negotiated 48 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:17,430 with the state of Montana. 49 00:02:17,430 --> 00:02:20,070 This line is Article III: "The exclusive right 50 00:02:20,070 --> 00:02:22,050 of taking fish and all the streams 51 00:02:22,050 --> 00:02:25,260 running through or bordering said reservation is further 52 00:02:25,260 --> 00:02:26,730 secured to said Indians. 53 00:02:26,730 --> 00:02:29,880 As also the right of taking fish at all usual and accustomed 54 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,340 places in common with citizens of the territory." 55 00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:35,850 So this provision maintained that the tribes 56 00:02:35,850 --> 00:02:37,890 had the rights to use water that passed 57 00:02:37,890 --> 00:02:40,050 through some of the lands that they conceded. 58 00:02:40,050 --> 00:02:43,110 The part that says "the right of taking fish 59 00:02:43,110 --> 00:02:45,678 at all usual and accustomed places." 60 00:02:45,678 --> 00:02:47,220 This is the basis of what have become 61 00:02:47,220 --> 00:02:50,050 to be known as the tribe's off reservation water rights. 62 00:02:50,050 --> 00:02:51,570 And we'll talk about what those are 63 00:02:51,570 --> 00:02:54,120 and how those became contentious. 64 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,240 As was often the case with treaties of Native tribes, 65 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,280 the US government violated the spirit 66 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,020 and the letter of the Hellgate treaty 67 00:03:01,020 --> 00:03:02,730 within a number of decades. 68 00:03:02,730 --> 00:03:04,440 The kind of general history that pertains 69 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,610 to all the Native American tribes is in 1887, 70 00:03:08,610 --> 00:03:11,340 the Dawes Act was passed, which subdivided Native reservations 71 00:03:11,340 --> 00:03:13,770 into individual allotments and opened reservations 72 00:03:13,770 --> 00:03:15,840 to settlement by whites. 73 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,580 In particular, the Flathead reservation, 74 00:03:17,580 --> 00:03:20,070 this kind of accelerated after the Flathead Allotment 75 00:03:20,070 --> 00:03:23,760 Act of 1954, provided for the distribution and irrigation 76 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,970 of actually a few different sizes of allotments 77 00:03:26,970 --> 00:03:28,635 but predominantly 160 acre allotments 78 00:03:28,635 --> 00:03:30,330 to Indian households. 79 00:03:30,330 --> 00:03:34,320 And then the rest of the acres that weren't given out 80 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,420 were considered surplus. 81 00:03:36,420 --> 00:03:38,310 And those surplus acres were available 82 00:03:38,310 --> 00:03:39,965 to non-tribal members. 83 00:03:39,965 --> 00:03:43,290 And so today actually most Flathead reservation residents 84 00:03:43,290 --> 00:03:45,030 are not tribal members. 85 00:03:45,030 --> 00:03:48,300 And there are many, both public and private non-tribal water 86 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:49,950 uses, including municipal uses. 87 00:03:49,950 --> 00:03:52,740 For example, Polson, Montana, which 88 00:03:52,740 --> 00:03:55,200 is the county seat of Lake County, which 89 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,980 is one of four counties that enters into the Flathead 90 00:03:58,980 --> 00:04:03,330 reservation, Polson, Montana is the seat county of Lake Montana 91 00:04:03,330 --> 00:04:06,090 and it's the largest town in the Flathead reservation. 92 00:04:06,090 --> 00:04:08,040 So I think it's just important to recognize 93 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,060 the complexity of the land use. 94 00:04:11,060 --> 00:04:13,130 The Flathead Indian Irrigation Project 95 00:04:13,130 --> 00:04:17,390 was a federally funded irrigation system 96 00:04:17,390 --> 00:04:20,930 that was developed over the course of the first half 97 00:04:20,930 --> 00:04:24,140 century, mostly in the '20s and '30s. 98 00:04:24,140 --> 00:04:26,690 And it's really a really extensive network 99 00:04:26,690 --> 00:04:31,010 of irrigable acres of canals, laterals, distribution systems, 100 00:04:31,010 --> 00:04:34,070 pumping stations, storage reservoirs that 101 00:04:34,070 --> 00:04:37,860 provides irrigation to all of the land that was described 102 00:04:37,860 --> 00:04:41,570 on the past slide, both Native uses, Native users, 103 00:04:41,570 --> 00:04:44,250 and municipal and non-Native users, 104 00:04:44,250 --> 00:04:47,330 particularly agricultural users on the reservation who 105 00:04:47,330 --> 00:04:49,590 are not members of the tribe. 106 00:04:49,590 --> 00:04:52,760 So that's what you need to know about that. 107 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,010 Oh yeah, and it's important to note 108 00:04:55,010 --> 00:05:00,320 that CSKT operates a large portion of FIIP, 109 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,690 of the Flathead Indian Irrigation Project, 110 00:05:02,690 --> 00:05:05,390 and has since the '80s. 111 00:05:05,390 --> 00:05:08,630 So water rights. 112 00:05:08,630 --> 00:05:10,430 Like many western states, Montana 113 00:05:10,430 --> 00:05:13,130 adopted a "first in time, first in right" doctrine 114 00:05:13,130 --> 00:05:15,240 of prior appropriation. 115 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,810 And until 1973, most rights in the state 116 00:05:17,810 --> 00:05:19,730 were use rights, which means they 117 00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:22,160 were exercised when someone basically took water 118 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:23,420 for a beneficial use. 119 00:05:23,420 --> 00:05:26,510 Most of the time they never filed those rights 120 00:05:26,510 --> 00:05:28,110 with the county or the state. 121 00:05:28,110 --> 00:05:30,290 And so many rights have no paper record. 122 00:05:30,290 --> 00:05:32,420 Rights often spanned multiple counties. 123 00:05:32,420 --> 00:05:35,940 And there'd be competing claims to the same quantity of water. 124 00:05:35,940 --> 00:05:37,842 I mean, this became increasingly complex 125 00:05:37,842 --> 00:05:40,175 because rights were also kept in the county courthouses. 126 00:05:40,175 --> 00:05:42,243 And so even if a right was filed, 127 00:05:42,243 --> 00:05:43,910 you had to go to every county courthouse 128 00:05:43,910 --> 00:05:46,910 to figure out if there were competing rights. 129 00:05:46,910 --> 00:05:50,360 So in 1972 when Montana adopted a new state constitution 130 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,190 recognizing existing water rights, 131 00:05:52,190 --> 00:05:54,050 it also called upon the state legislature 132 00:05:54,050 --> 00:05:57,090 to quote, "establish a system of centralized records for water 133 00:05:57,090 --> 00:05:57,590 rights." 134 00:05:57,590 --> 00:05:59,930 And that's the origin of the dispute, 135 00:05:59,930 --> 00:06:05,040 is the status of Indian rights in the centralized record. 136 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,780 In 1973, Montana passed the Water Use Act, 137 00:06:09,780 --> 00:06:12,540 which mandated that the Department of Natural Resources 138 00:06:12,540 --> 00:06:14,280 and Conservation permit new claims 139 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:16,560 and manage a record of water rights. 140 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,150 And it established a system of adjudicating pre-1973 claims. 141 00:06:21,150 --> 00:06:23,250 This means that all new claims had 142 00:06:23,250 --> 00:06:26,010 to be filed with the Department of Natural Resources 143 00:06:26,010 --> 00:06:27,750 and Conservation. 144 00:06:27,750 --> 00:06:30,270 And it began to create a bureaucratic structure 145 00:06:30,270 --> 00:06:34,380 for looking at all claims filed or existing even if they 146 00:06:34,380 --> 00:06:37,050 weren't filed prior to 1973. 147 00:06:37,050 --> 00:06:41,010 In '79, the Senate Bill 76 established the Montana Water 148 00:06:41,010 --> 00:06:44,940 Court, which was set up initially on a 15 year term 149 00:06:44,940 --> 00:06:48,240 limit, although it's still around now 50 years later 150 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,790 and they're hoping to have all the work done-- 151 00:06:50,790 --> 00:06:54,240 I believe the most recent estimate I saw was by 2028. 152 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,345 But even that is questionable. 153 00:06:57,345 --> 00:06:59,220 And established the water court to adjudicate 154 00:06:59,220 --> 00:07:01,980 all pre-1973 claims. 155 00:07:01,980 --> 00:07:05,580 However, while this legislation was under consideration, 156 00:07:05,580 --> 00:07:07,950 both the US Department of the Interior 157 00:07:07,950 --> 00:07:10,680 and the tribes expressed opposition 158 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,320 to having their water rights adjudicated by a state court, 159 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,510 because they argue that these water 160 00:07:15,510 --> 00:07:18,305 rights, both the federal water rights pertaining 161 00:07:18,305 --> 00:07:19,680 to federal lands, whether they're 162 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:21,930 national parks or Bureau of Land Management lands, 163 00:07:21,930 --> 00:07:24,750 and also the Native water rights which 164 00:07:24,750 --> 00:07:28,320 were held in trust by the US government, 165 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,650 they argue that they were not subject to state courts. 166 00:07:31,650 --> 00:07:33,930 And many in Montana's agricultural community 167 00:07:33,930 --> 00:07:35,850 also opposed the use of water courts 168 00:07:35,850 --> 00:07:38,580 to determine Native rights, because ranchers and others 169 00:07:38,580 --> 00:07:40,950 both on the reservation and off the reservation feared 170 00:07:40,950 --> 00:07:44,340 that extensive tribal claims would supersede 171 00:07:44,340 --> 00:07:47,610 their historical rights because of the "first in time" 172 00:07:47,610 --> 00:07:48,870 doctrine. 173 00:07:48,870 --> 00:07:51,930 In response, the legislature amended the draft legislation 174 00:07:51,930 --> 00:07:55,020 and established the Montana Reserved Water Rights Compact 175 00:07:55,020 --> 00:07:58,857 Commission, which negotiates on the state's behalf. 176 00:07:58,857 --> 00:08:00,690 The commission was also initially authorized 177 00:08:00,690 --> 00:08:03,390 for a limited term, but that term 178 00:08:03,390 --> 00:08:05,310 was extended and extended and extended. 179 00:08:05,310 --> 00:08:07,967 We'll talk about where it ended up. 180 00:08:07,967 --> 00:08:10,050 Just quickly, there are two kinds of tribal rights 181 00:08:10,050 --> 00:08:10,650 that pertain. 182 00:08:10,650 --> 00:08:12,360 There are federally reserved rights 183 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,420 that were set aside by the federal government for use 184 00:08:15,420 --> 00:08:16,590 by the Native tribe. 185 00:08:16,590 --> 00:08:19,080 And these have a priority date that's 186 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,530 equivalent to the date of the reservation's creation. 187 00:08:22,530 --> 00:08:25,048 So in the Flathead reservation, it's 1855. 188 00:08:25,048 --> 00:08:27,090 And they're governed by what's called the Winters 189 00:08:27,090 --> 00:08:31,080 Doctrine, which refers to the Supreme Court doctrine that 190 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,780 said that when the US set aside land for Indian reservation, 191 00:08:33,780 --> 00:08:36,870 it implicitly reserved adequate water for the tribes 192 00:08:36,870 --> 00:08:38,380 to fulfill their livelihoods. 193 00:08:38,380 --> 00:08:40,409 And so this is the on-reservation rights 194 00:08:40,409 --> 00:08:42,900 that we're talking about that are federally reserved. 195 00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:46,950 The Aboriginal rights are rights that predate a reservation 196 00:08:46,950 --> 00:08:49,470 and are explicitly recognized in the treaty or statute that 197 00:08:49,470 --> 00:08:50,470 created the reservation. 198 00:08:50,470 --> 00:08:52,440 And these rights have a different priority date 199 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,300 of time immemorial. 200 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:57,300 And time immemorial means, I thought 201 00:08:57,300 --> 00:08:59,430 that was an interesting term, what 202 00:08:59,430 --> 00:09:02,430 it means is time extended beyond the reach of memory, record, 203 00:09:02,430 --> 00:09:04,990 or tradition, indefinitely ancient 204 00:09:04,990 --> 00:09:06,190 beyond memory or record. 205 00:09:06,190 --> 00:09:08,640 So these are the off-reservation rights 206 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,430 that were subject to that kind of the provision 207 00:09:11,430 --> 00:09:14,220 in the original treaty that I mentioned. 208 00:09:14,220 --> 00:09:15,900 And two things to note about this. 209 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:19,830 The Aboriginal rights almost by definition because of the time 210 00:09:19,830 --> 00:09:21,960 immemorial claim would by definition 211 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:27,780 have an earlier priority date than all other claims 212 00:09:27,780 --> 00:09:30,810 in all other water rights in Montana because of the time 213 00:09:30,810 --> 00:09:32,700 immemorial date. 214 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:35,070 And something similar has actually occurred, 215 00:09:35,070 --> 00:09:37,440 although it's been more disputed with the federally 216 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:38,670 reserved rights. 217 00:09:38,670 --> 00:09:41,070 Given that the Flathead reservation was not 218 00:09:41,070 --> 00:09:45,660 open to homesteading by non-tribal members until 1909, 219 00:09:45,660 --> 00:09:48,780 the tribe has argued that their on-reservation rights are 220 00:09:48,780 --> 00:09:51,270 necessarily superior or senior, sorry, 221 00:09:51,270 --> 00:09:53,250 to all other on-reservation rights, 222 00:09:53,250 --> 00:09:56,100 regardless of whether they're Aboriginal or reserve. 223 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:59,460 But this fact, which has come to be accepted, 224 00:09:59,460 --> 00:10:03,000 was not accepted at the time by many non-tribal residents 225 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,960 of the reservation, especially ranchers and other kind 226 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,470 of large irrigators as well as a number of municipal governments 227 00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:16,170 and Republican state legislators who argued that this somehow 228 00:10:16,170 --> 00:10:19,350 constituted an unconstitutional taking under the US 229 00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:21,690 Constitution, under the Montana Constitution. 230 00:10:21,690 --> 00:10:23,490 It's not worth getting into it, but just 231 00:10:23,490 --> 00:10:26,670 to say that there wasn't agreement at the beginning that 232 00:10:26,670 --> 00:10:28,630 was the fact. 233 00:10:28,630 --> 00:10:30,040 Legislation that I just discussed 234 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,370 set up the Montana State Compact Commission. 235 00:10:33,370 --> 00:10:35,620 And the Compact Commission is a nine member commission 236 00:10:35,620 --> 00:10:38,950 appointed to four year terms, kind of in this makeup. 237 00:10:38,950 --> 00:10:41,350 And it created this really complex process 238 00:10:41,350 --> 00:10:44,260 for getting an agreement negotiated. 239 00:10:44,260 --> 00:10:45,910 First there were negotiations, and then 240 00:10:45,910 --> 00:10:47,890 the full commission once agreed upon 241 00:10:47,890 --> 00:10:49,810 had to vote upon the negotiations. 242 00:10:49,810 --> 00:10:52,510 Then it had to go to the Montana state legislature who 243 00:10:52,510 --> 00:10:54,070 had to ratify it. 244 00:10:54,070 --> 00:10:57,610 Then the tribal compact, so on the left hand column now, 245 00:10:57,610 --> 00:10:59,050 then had to go to the US Congress. 246 00:10:59,050 --> 00:11:01,930 And Congress, both the Senate and the House, 247 00:11:01,930 --> 00:11:03,340 had to ratify it. 248 00:11:03,340 --> 00:11:04,940 The president had to sign it. 249 00:11:04,940 --> 00:11:08,170 The tribe then had to vote to approve it. 250 00:11:08,170 --> 00:11:12,190 And it then needs a kind of pro forma approval 251 00:11:12,190 --> 00:11:15,820 by the Montana Water Court, who issues the final decree, 252 00:11:15,820 --> 00:11:20,170 entering the rights agreed upon into the system 253 00:11:20,170 --> 00:11:23,620 that the state now manages according to the 1973 254 00:11:23,620 --> 00:11:24,550 constitution. 255 00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:27,700 So there's a huge number of parties 256 00:11:27,700 --> 00:11:29,500 who have to sign on to this. 257 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:31,030 At every step of the way, there have 258 00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:34,990 been roadblocks and issues and renegotiations 259 00:11:34,990 --> 00:11:37,990 as a result of the complexity of this process and just 260 00:11:37,990 --> 00:11:41,660 how many parties were apart. 261 00:11:41,660 --> 00:11:44,830 So there are a couple of other contextual things 262 00:11:44,830 --> 00:11:46,630 that I want to bring up, because I think 263 00:11:46,630 --> 00:11:48,400 they're important to understanding 264 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,130 the contentiousness of the conversations 265 00:11:51,130 --> 00:11:54,190 around the compact. 266 00:11:54,190 --> 00:11:55,300 Three court cases that-- 267 00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:56,675 I'm going to try to pronounce it. 268 00:11:56,675 --> 00:11:58,660 Ciotti I, II, and III, I guess. 269 00:11:58,660 --> 00:12:00,070 There were three court cases that 270 00:12:00,070 --> 00:12:05,230 were filed between 1996 and 2003 and argued before the Supreme 271 00:12:05,230 --> 00:12:06,070 Court. 272 00:12:06,070 --> 00:12:08,650 And actually the last one was only 273 00:12:08,650 --> 00:12:10,963 found during the actual negotiations. 274 00:12:10,963 --> 00:12:12,880 It was when the Supreme Court made its ruling. 275 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,030 And it recognized the distinction 276 00:12:16,030 --> 00:12:18,730 between state appropriative water rights and reserve water 277 00:12:18,730 --> 00:12:19,540 rights. 278 00:12:19,540 --> 00:12:24,010 And the ruling was that new and amended water use permits 279 00:12:24,010 --> 00:12:27,550 on the reservation had to show that their proposed uses would 280 00:12:27,550 --> 00:12:29,173 not, quote, "unreasonably interfere 281 00:12:29,173 --> 00:12:31,090 with a planned use for which water has already 282 00:12:31,090 --> 00:12:32,140 been reserved." 283 00:12:32,140 --> 00:12:35,440 And what the Supreme Court said again and again 284 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,937 as this case was re-fought in different forms, 285 00:12:38,937 --> 00:12:41,020 and only the first one was actually called Ciotti, 286 00:12:41,020 --> 00:12:43,330 as it was fought in different forms, what they argued 287 00:12:43,330 --> 00:12:46,090 was that because the state and because 288 00:12:46,090 --> 00:12:49,420 private non-tribal water users couldn't show proof 289 00:12:49,420 --> 00:12:53,740 that their claims were not unreasonably interfering 290 00:12:53,740 --> 00:12:57,020 with the planned use, then that burden could not be met. 291 00:12:57,020 --> 00:13:00,680 And so a new water use permit could not be issued. 292 00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:04,180 And so this decision had a few significant impacts. 293 00:13:04,180 --> 00:13:07,780 It gave the tribes, the CSKT, a significant amount 294 00:13:07,780 --> 00:13:10,210 of bargaining power, because municipalities 295 00:13:10,210 --> 00:13:14,140 and non-Indian reservations on the Flathead reservation 296 00:13:14,140 --> 00:13:16,870 couldn't apply to the state for new or amended beneficial use 297 00:13:16,870 --> 00:13:20,350 permits so long as the tribe's reserved rights remained 298 00:13:20,350 --> 00:13:21,520 unquantified. 299 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,300 And the potential negative impact 300 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:27,638 on the state of having to litigate each of the claims 301 00:13:27,638 --> 00:13:29,680 separately, to the tribal [INAUDIBLE] separately, 302 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:30,940 was [INAUDIBLE]. 303 00:13:30,940 --> 00:13:34,210 It's also important to note because the non-Indian permit 304 00:13:34,210 --> 00:13:37,480 holders were frightened of not receiving sufficient water 305 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,540 for their own uses or losing their water rights altogether 306 00:13:40,540 --> 00:13:44,620 because of the possibility of the tribes having reserved 307 00:13:44,620 --> 00:13:45,580 claims. 308 00:13:45,580 --> 00:13:47,260 And this generated political panic 309 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:50,590 among non-Indian municipal and county politicians 310 00:13:50,590 --> 00:13:55,070 and amongst other irrigators in the region. 311 00:13:55,070 --> 00:14:01,360 In 1982, the tribes in anticipation of negotiations 312 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,460 with the Compact Commission collaborated 313 00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:06,610 with the US Geological Survey on an extensive drainage 314 00:14:06,610 --> 00:14:11,110 by drainage measurement program of groundwater, surface water, 315 00:14:11,110 --> 00:14:16,040 stream flow, river flow, minimum fill levels 316 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,860 of different bodies of water. 317 00:14:18,860 --> 00:14:22,510 And so by the time the negotiations started in 2000, 318 00:14:22,510 --> 00:14:24,580 the US government and the tribes were 319 00:14:24,580 --> 00:14:27,460 in possession of an unprecedented amount of data 320 00:14:27,460 --> 00:14:30,910 about the water that was up for review. 321 00:14:30,910 --> 00:14:33,010 I got to interview a long time tribal 322 00:14:33,010 --> 00:14:35,740 attorney who started his career in the early '80s 323 00:14:35,740 --> 00:14:37,210 and retired last year. 324 00:14:37,210 --> 00:14:42,040 So his career was bookended basically by this negotiation. 325 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:43,840 What he said was that fact finding 326 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,270 was a process of sharing data with the state 327 00:14:46,270 --> 00:14:48,280 to bring the state up to speed. 328 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,280 And it's something that I think was interesting 329 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,340 about the negotiations is that opposition, especially 330 00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:56,650 from legislators over the course of negotiations, 331 00:14:56,650 --> 00:15:01,420 was often ignorance, because just the knowledge 332 00:15:01,420 --> 00:15:05,420 was so one sided at the start of negotiations. 333 00:15:05,420 --> 00:15:08,990 Finally, it's important to note that the alternative 334 00:15:08,990 --> 00:15:14,240 to negotiations loomed over the negotiations. 335 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,140 The tribes of the state if they did not 336 00:15:18,140 --> 00:15:20,330 agree to a compact, the two sides 337 00:15:20,330 --> 00:15:23,750 would be forced to litigate each claim separately 338 00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:25,070 in the Water Court. 339 00:15:25,070 --> 00:15:28,280 That would have been very costly and taken many years. 340 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,090 And it was a valid fear on the part of the non-tribal water 341 00:15:32,090 --> 00:15:34,700 users that they would be at risk of losing 342 00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:38,330 their state appropriated water rights because of the tribe's 343 00:15:38,330 --> 00:15:40,590 earlier priority dates. 344 00:15:40,590 --> 00:15:44,640 Even the tribes recognized that having to litigate their claims 345 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,500 would be costly and burdensome. 346 00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:48,720 And just to give you a sense, these 347 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,470 are just the off-reservation claims that you see here. 348 00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:56,340 The left are 97 rights that as of 2018, it 349 00:15:56,340 --> 00:15:58,500 changed a little bit after that, as of 2018, 350 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:04,080 the tribe was going to maintain off reservation. 351 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:09,360 And these are the rights that the state 352 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,020 thought the tribe had the ability to adjudicate 353 00:16:13,020 --> 00:16:14,520 if they didn't have a compact. 354 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,910 And so if a compact wasn't reached, 355 00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:20,700 the tribe could have gone to court and litigated 356 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:22,470 upwards of 10,000 different water 357 00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:24,720 claims across Western Montana. 358 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,960 And as a result, there was a lot of incentive for the state 359 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,280 to come to a settlement that both quantified the tribe's 360 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,610 rights and also protected the junior rights 361 00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:41,140 of non-tribal water users so that this didn't occur 362 00:16:41,140 --> 00:16:45,930 and there wasn't decades of litigation over these rights. 363 00:16:45,930 --> 00:16:49,260 So in terms of the negotiation topics, that the body kind 364 00:16:49,260 --> 00:16:52,770 of discussed, there were on-reservation rights 365 00:16:52,770 --> 00:16:56,250 pertaining to the irrigation project, on-reservation rights 366 00:16:56,250 --> 00:16:58,210 pertaining to the irrigation deliveries. 367 00:16:58,210 --> 00:17:01,890 So this is water from the irrigation project 368 00:17:01,890 --> 00:17:07,349 that has historically been used by non-tribal water users. 369 00:17:07,349 --> 00:17:10,319 And so their right to continue to receive that water. 370 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,640 There was water from the Flathead system, 371 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:17,369 meaning the Flathead River, its tributaries, and Flathead Lake. 372 00:17:17,369 --> 00:17:19,740 And then there were a number of non-consumptive rights. 373 00:17:19,740 --> 00:17:23,310 Off reservation, there were instream flow rights as well as 374 00:17:23,310 --> 00:17:25,530 state law based non-irrigation rights, 375 00:17:25,530 --> 00:17:28,862 which I'll talk about a little more later. 376 00:17:28,862 --> 00:17:30,570 Actually one thing that I didn't put here 377 00:17:30,570 --> 00:17:32,112 is the other thing that was obviously 378 00:17:32,112 --> 00:17:35,610 a part of this was off-reservation rights claimed 379 00:17:35,610 --> 00:17:41,100 by non-tribal users, which is most off-reservation rights 380 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:44,290 that were at risk as a result of this were by non-tribal users. 381 00:17:44,290 --> 00:17:46,380 And somehow I didn't put that on here. 382 00:17:46,380 --> 00:17:48,140 And then there was implementation. 383 00:17:48,140 --> 00:17:49,620 And so these were the discussions. 384 00:17:49,620 --> 00:17:52,570 I'm going to put a kind of calendar in front of you. 385 00:17:52,570 --> 00:17:54,900 And I don't need you to read through all of it. 386 00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:56,460 This is the first of two pages. 387 00:17:56,460 --> 00:17:58,320 Because I really want to call your attention 388 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,580 to a couple of things. 389 00:18:00,580 --> 00:18:02,190 So the first thing is the start date. 390 00:18:02,190 --> 00:18:05,520 The first negotiation sessions occurred in 2000. 391 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,370 But in 2001, the state issued-- 392 00:18:09,370 --> 00:18:13,520 and this is after all three of the Ciotti I and II were done 393 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,590 and the Ciotti III was currently before the Supreme Court. 394 00:18:16,590 --> 00:18:18,750 And despite that, the state issued 395 00:18:18,750 --> 00:18:22,500 yet another on-reservation permit during negotiations 396 00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:25,290 despite multiple rulings by the Supreme Court. 397 00:18:25,290 --> 00:18:27,180 And I think it's important just because it 398 00:18:27,180 --> 00:18:29,730 chose to accept a level of distrust 399 00:18:29,730 --> 00:18:33,840 and also the level of skepticism that the tribe had about 400 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,030 the state's ability to and willingness 401 00:18:36,030 --> 00:18:38,310 to negotiate forthrightly. 402 00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:42,860 I think it's also important that the facilitator who was brought 403 00:18:42,860 --> 00:18:46,085 in 2011, Edward Sheets, I was told, 404 00:18:46,085 --> 00:18:47,960 and I've been trying to get in touch with him 405 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,400 and I haven't been able to, but I 406 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,260 was told that relatively little had 407 00:18:51,260 --> 00:18:53,330 been decided by the time he began 408 00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:55,190 working on the negotiations. 409 00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:57,050 And he brought order to the negotiations 410 00:18:57,050 --> 00:19:00,800 and served as an unbiased party with which both sides could 411 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:01,970 discuss. 412 00:19:01,970 --> 00:19:04,910 And I think the impact of him as a neutral party 413 00:19:04,910 --> 00:19:06,660 is really important. 414 00:19:06,660 --> 00:19:08,210 I think also just the number of years 415 00:19:08,210 --> 00:19:11,750 that passed between 2002 and 2005, 416 00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:14,300 the two sides turned their attention entirely 417 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:15,832 to negotiating an interim agreement 418 00:19:15,832 --> 00:19:17,540 once they realized how long it would take 419 00:19:17,540 --> 00:19:18,920 to come to a final agreement. 420 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,400 And then because of a number of political reasons, 421 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,190 they abandoned the interim agreement. 422 00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:27,350 When the compact failed in the state legislature 423 00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:29,610 in 2013, because that's what occurred, 424 00:19:29,610 --> 00:19:31,220 the first compact was agreed to. 425 00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:32,600 It went to the state legislature. 426 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:33,920 It failed. 427 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,930 And much of the opposition at the time 428 00:19:35,930 --> 00:19:38,630 was Republican representatives expressed some concern 429 00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:40,400 that the compact didn't sufficiently 430 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,267 protect non-tribal water users. 431 00:19:42,267 --> 00:19:44,600 And some of it was legitimate concern, though some of it 432 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,600 appears to have been political grandstanding. 433 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:52,400 Then the state and the tribes agreed to a limited reopening. 434 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,720 Two years later when the legislature meets again, 435 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,130 they pass it. 436 00:19:58,130 --> 00:20:00,470 And then it went to the US Congress 437 00:20:00,470 --> 00:20:03,290 where it sat for five years in different forms 438 00:20:03,290 --> 00:20:06,050 with slight amendments occurring all over the place 439 00:20:06,050 --> 00:20:09,290 until finally it passed as a part of the COVID-19 stimulus 440 00:20:09,290 --> 00:20:10,760 bill in December. 441 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:15,980 And just days after that, the tribe council passed it 442 00:20:15,980 --> 00:20:19,760 and now it's awaiting a bureaucratic review that is 443 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,240 expected to be simple, routine. 444 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,540 I was told by John Carter, the former staff 445 00:20:26,540 --> 00:20:28,580 attorney for the tribes, that one thing that 446 00:20:28,580 --> 00:20:31,730 helped the revised agreement pass two years later 447 00:20:31,730 --> 00:20:34,297 was extensive dialogue with a couple of key Republicans 448 00:20:34,297 --> 00:20:36,380 who were willing to learn more about the agreement 449 00:20:36,380 --> 00:20:40,760 but whose opposition in 2013 faded by 2015 once they 450 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,410 understood the thing better. 451 00:20:42,410 --> 00:20:46,850 So that's I think something that I will return to at the end, 452 00:20:46,850 --> 00:20:50,940 but just the importance of that understanding. 453 00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:53,180 So this is where they ended up. 454 00:20:53,180 --> 00:20:55,860 On-reservation rights were protected in a number of ways. 455 00:20:55,860 --> 00:21:00,800 The tribes agreed to 211 total on-reservation rights. 456 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:01,795 Really detailed. 457 00:21:01,795 --> 00:21:03,170 I didn't get into the detail here 458 00:21:03,170 --> 00:21:04,670 in terms of how it's apportioned, 459 00:21:04,670 --> 00:21:07,220 and where it comes from, where it goes. 460 00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:09,470 With a priority date of 1855, they then 461 00:21:09,470 --> 00:21:11,120 agreed to relinquish the right to call 462 00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:13,490 all other on-reservation rights. 463 00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:17,390 The state agreed to give the tribes ownership of the-- 464 00:21:17,390 --> 00:21:20,720 or to the US ownership and trust of the tribe of the irrigation 465 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,660 project provided that the tribe continued 466 00:21:23,660 --> 00:21:28,100 to deliver a certain quantity of water to non-tribal water 467 00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:30,500 users, non-tribal irrigators who have historically 468 00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:33,297 used the irrigation project. 469 00:21:33,297 --> 00:21:34,880 And that was a really contentious part 470 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,550 of the agreement, because a number of the non-tribal users 471 00:21:37,550 --> 00:21:39,890 wanted the state to retain ownership. 472 00:21:39,890 --> 00:21:43,580 Then there were a number of non-consumptive rights. 473 00:21:43,580 --> 00:21:46,070 So one quote-- I'll skip a little bit, but one quote, 474 00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:49,820 I want to say this is a quote from a Big Timber rancher named 475 00:21:49,820 --> 00:21:54,110 Lawrence Grossfield who formed a group to help support the 2015 476 00:21:54,110 --> 00:21:56,810 version of the compact, the revised version of the compact. 477 00:21:56,810 --> 00:21:58,760 She gave this in 2015. 478 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,700 And she said, oh, he gave it. 479 00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:03,020 Sorry, Lawrence. 480 00:22:03,020 --> 00:22:04,970 "There wasn't much in the way two years ago 481 00:22:04,970 --> 00:22:07,370 of an educational effort for the press or legislatures 482 00:22:07,370 --> 00:22:08,210 or anybody. 483 00:22:08,210 --> 00:22:09,590 We're going to be out and visible 484 00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:11,507 and just trying to spread accurate information 485 00:22:11,507 --> 00:22:13,500 about the compact and the whole process." 486 00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:17,210 And two years later after the first agreement failed, 487 00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:20,150 that educational process was really important. 488 00:22:20,150 --> 00:22:23,240 Off reservation, the tribes retained 489 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,150 eight off-reservation instream flow rights as well as 490 00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:29,060 58 additional rights to be co-owned 491 00:22:29,060 --> 00:22:33,590 by the state and the tribes with very detailed parameters. 492 00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:37,400 The tribe has agreed to relinquish 97%, many thousands 493 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,720 of claims protecting the non-tribal users across Western 494 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:42,950 Montana. 495 00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:44,960 And that was hugely important. 496 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,510 I want to point out one thing, which is that the map I showed 497 00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:49,520 you earlier of the off-reservation claims, 498 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,080 it said on the map that there were 499 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,230 97 off-reservation rights in 2018 500 00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:55,490 that the tribe were getting. 501 00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:58,130 But by the time the actual agreement 502 00:22:58,130 --> 00:23:02,480 was passed by the US Congress, that number had dropped to 58. 503 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,740 And that occurred because Senator Daines of Montana 504 00:23:06,740 --> 00:23:10,610 basically with the tribes negotiated slight changes 505 00:23:10,610 --> 00:23:12,500 in order to get other senators on board, 506 00:23:12,500 --> 00:23:13,730 the US Senators on board. 507 00:23:13,730 --> 00:23:17,870 So it's interesting that even once the agreement had passed, 508 00:23:17,870 --> 00:23:19,400 it was agreed to by the two sides, 509 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,320 even once the state legislature had agreed 510 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,650 to it, four years later when it was with the US Congress, 511 00:23:24,650 --> 00:23:27,650 they were continuing to negotiate over minor points 512 00:23:27,650 --> 00:23:30,770 so that they could get this thing passed once and for all 513 00:23:30,770 --> 00:23:34,310 and quantify the tribe's rights. 514 00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:36,535 Implementation. 515 00:23:36,535 --> 00:23:37,910 At the very beginning, the tribes 516 00:23:37,910 --> 00:23:41,810 wanted a unitary system that they controlled on reservation. 517 00:23:41,810 --> 00:23:43,940 Over time they came to an agreement 518 00:23:43,940 --> 00:23:47,330 for a unitary system that was jointly controlled. 519 00:23:47,330 --> 00:23:51,950 And this was unprecedented for the state who had never 520 00:23:51,950 --> 00:23:54,950 given up some management to one of the tribes in the state 521 00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:58,280 and also was a significant concession by the tribes. 522 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,680 This joint board is currently being set up with help 523 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,110 from the state commission. 524 00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:05,450 And the state agreed also to give $50 million 525 00:24:05,450 --> 00:24:09,290 to a number of water measurement and irrigation efforts. 526 00:24:09,290 --> 00:24:14,240 The unitary system is something that a lot of the, also again, 527 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,460 the non-tribal irrigators were very upset about, 528 00:24:16,460 --> 00:24:18,560 because they felt that they would lose the ability 529 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:24,520 to negotiate rights, that they felt they should not 530 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,830 have to go to the tribe for. 531 00:24:26,830 --> 00:24:29,530 I'll leave it at that for now. 532 00:24:29,530 --> 00:24:32,390 A couple of conclusions that I want to bring up. 533 00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:34,960 One is that divergent knowledge is an impediment early 534 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:35,920 on in negotiations. 535 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,140 That water management should be a joint undertaking 536 00:24:38,140 --> 00:24:39,070 or jointly observed. 537 00:24:39,070 --> 00:24:42,100 I think it's really interesting that one 538 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:45,220 of the major impediments in the first years 539 00:24:45,220 --> 00:24:48,700 was simply the fact that the state didn't have anything 540 00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:50,650 close to the level of understanding 541 00:24:50,650 --> 00:24:54,280 of the existing water on the reservation that the tribes had 542 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,200 and that the US government had. 543 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:57,940 Second, that impartial facilitators 544 00:24:57,940 --> 00:24:59,440 are essential and should be utilized 545 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,990 even before negotiations begin. 546 00:25:01,990 --> 00:25:05,200 That the first decade wasn't wasted. 547 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,120 Some stuff was decided upon. 548 00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:11,170 But by all accounts, when Edward Sheets was brought on, 549 00:25:11,170 --> 00:25:14,080 things moved forward much more smoothly 550 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,890 in a really ordered fashion and with a lot less chest beating. 551 00:25:17,890 --> 00:25:19,690 And third, so when politics are bound 552 00:25:19,690 --> 00:25:21,790 to get in the way of an agreement's approval, 553 00:25:21,790 --> 00:25:23,680 it's better to include skeptical parties 554 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,150 than to build a wall around negotiators. 555 00:25:26,150 --> 00:25:27,260 This is a personal thing. 556 00:25:27,260 --> 00:25:30,400 I think that certain state representatives and senators as 557 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,920 well as some major irrigators might have been, 558 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,140 if they had been educated on the negotiations 559 00:25:35,140 --> 00:25:37,420 prior to the document's public release, it's possible, 560 00:25:37,420 --> 00:25:38,920 I don't know if this is for certain, 561 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,320 but it's possible that some of their resistance 562 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:42,490 could have been mitigated. 563 00:25:42,490 --> 00:25:44,723 And then again, adaptive, which we've 564 00:25:44,723 --> 00:25:46,390 talked about before this class, adaptive 565 00:25:46,390 --> 00:25:48,497 governance necessitates shared control. 566 00:25:48,497 --> 00:25:50,330 Finally, I didn't know what to do with this. 567 00:25:50,330 --> 00:25:52,788 It's one question I've been grappling with in the past days 568 00:25:52,788 --> 00:25:55,480 as I've been editing my doc by my written report. 569 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,540 Which is basically, what should we make of the fact 570 00:25:58,540 --> 00:26:02,080 that even after the CSKT, after the tribes have negotiated 571 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:03,700 with everybody in good faith they 572 00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:05,890 had to give up additional rights in order 573 00:26:05,890 --> 00:26:07,570 to get it passed by the US Congress? 574 00:26:07,570 --> 00:26:10,060 Is there another system, given the complexity 575 00:26:10,060 --> 00:26:13,000 of the process, another system that could have been set up 576 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,600 to help create a process that wouldn't have required 577 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,460 as much legal approval? 578 00:26:18,460 --> 00:26:20,950 Or is that simply a fact of history and we 579 00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:22,240 need to accept it? 580 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,130 And just it's a question I'm interested in. 581 00:26:25,130 --> 00:26:29,350 And with that, I will open it up for comments and questions. 582 00:26:29,350 --> 00:26:31,360 And I know that was a lot, so thank you all. 583 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,370 DR. GAIN: Thank you, Aron, for the nice presentation. 584 00:26:38,370 --> 00:26:42,110 So now I would like to ask Husnain 585 00:26:42,110 --> 00:26:44,300 to make comments and feedback. 586 00:26:46,838 --> 00:26:49,130 AUDIENCE: Very well done, Aron, with your presentation. 587 00:26:49,130 --> 00:26:52,310 You really picked a very complicated case study, 588 00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:56,030 because it involves a lot of stakeholders. 589 00:26:56,030 --> 00:26:59,690 So as it involves a lot of stakeholders, my first question 590 00:26:59,690 --> 00:27:02,870 would be, how do you think that all stakeholders came 591 00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:05,960 into one page and why do you think 592 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:14,750 this treaty took so much time to finally conclude? 593 00:27:14,750 --> 00:27:17,490 Because it involved a lot of litigation. 594 00:27:17,490 --> 00:27:19,820 What was the things which were not going 595 00:27:19,820 --> 00:27:21,080 in the right direction before? 596 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,470 And what was the thing which happened this time to make it 597 00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:25,760 in the right direction? 598 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,110 STUDENT PRESENTER: In terms of why it took so long, 599 00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:28,658 there are a couple of things. 600 00:27:28,658 --> 00:27:30,950 When the Water Commission was created, when the Compact 601 00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:34,760 Commission was created in the late '70s, 602 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,343 they had about a little over a dozen agreements 603 00:27:38,343 --> 00:27:40,010 to negotiate with the federal government 604 00:27:40,010 --> 00:27:41,390 and with the state's tribes. 605 00:27:41,390 --> 00:27:45,500 And they purposefully did all of the others 606 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:49,040 and then did the Flathead reservation one 607 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,840 because the Flathead reservation was the most complicated. 608 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,620 And I think that actually wasn't a good thing. 609 00:27:56,620 --> 00:28:00,290 I think that there was a lot of study and animosity 610 00:28:00,290 --> 00:28:03,080 and kind of divergence that occurred 611 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,240 in those intervening decades. 612 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,900 In part, I think, because the tribes 613 00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:12,530 saw what was coming out of these other agreements 614 00:28:12,530 --> 00:28:15,620 and immediately began formulating alternate things, 615 00:28:15,620 --> 00:28:17,120 alternate ideas, because they didn't 616 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:18,912 like what the other agreements were saying. 617 00:28:18,912 --> 00:28:23,450 And so a lot more could have been done earlier, I think, 618 00:28:23,450 --> 00:28:26,330 if discussions had started in the early '80s, for example, 619 00:28:26,330 --> 00:28:27,950 or the mid '80s. 620 00:28:27,950 --> 00:28:32,720 I think the other things that impeded the timeline 621 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,120 first is that partially because of that, 622 00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:37,520 the tribes came into the negotiations 623 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,560 with a lot of preconceived notions 624 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,780 about what the final agreement should look like. 625 00:28:42,780 --> 00:28:44,840 And there were a lot of news reports, 626 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,610 for example, after their first formal negotiation session. 627 00:28:49,610 --> 00:28:51,560 All of these things that the tribe said 628 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,210 that they wanted in the final agreement 629 00:28:53,210 --> 00:28:55,610 that the states immediately threw up their hands 630 00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:56,750 and said, absolutely not. 631 00:28:56,750 --> 00:29:01,160 And negotiations actually shut down for a year at that point. 632 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,760 And so if those conversations could 633 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,060 have started in the '80s when the tribes were beginning 634 00:29:08,060 --> 00:29:11,630 their process of studying the water quantity, the water 635 00:29:11,630 --> 00:29:17,870 quality, and if the questions regarding the implementation 636 00:29:17,870 --> 00:29:23,330 could have been ongoing, I think a lot of anger 637 00:29:23,330 --> 00:29:25,040 could have been mitigated. 638 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:32,212 So a part of it was just there was so much 639 00:29:32,212 --> 00:29:34,170 confrontation going into the agreement and very 640 00:29:34,170 --> 00:29:36,330 little trust. 641 00:29:36,330 --> 00:29:39,875 And the other thing I think took a lot-- 642 00:29:39,875 --> 00:29:41,250 the second thing I want to say is 643 00:29:41,250 --> 00:29:43,975 that I think that the role of the negotiator 644 00:29:43,975 --> 00:29:44,850 was really important. 645 00:29:44,850 --> 00:29:49,800 Without the negotiator, a lot of the opportunity for building 646 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,330 trust didn't occur. 647 00:29:52,330 --> 00:29:57,750 And they became venting sessions, the negotiations, 648 00:29:57,750 --> 00:30:01,170 and it wasn't always a productive thing. 649 00:30:01,170 --> 00:30:02,460 So that's the question. 650 00:30:02,460 --> 00:30:05,235 In terms of what took so long, I think 651 00:30:05,235 --> 00:30:06,640 the negotiator helped a lot. 652 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,322 And then I think eventually having-- 653 00:30:08,322 --> 00:30:10,530 I mean, and this is where I think the water diplomacy 654 00:30:10,530 --> 00:30:12,880 framework does come to bear significantly, 655 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,860 which is that I think once the two sides did have a shared 656 00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:20,010 understanding of the quantity of water and all 657 00:30:20,010 --> 00:30:24,360 the different locations and of the various legal arguments 658 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,840 of the potential uses, once there was that shared 659 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,590 understanding, it was a lot easier to come to agreements, 660 00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:34,800 because they understood from what point 661 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,820 they were compromising from. 662 00:30:38,820 --> 00:30:42,780 Whereas the tribes went into it with a lot more understanding 663 00:30:42,780 --> 00:30:47,110 and would put up a very hard wall to begin with. 664 00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:48,900 And so having that shared understanding 665 00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:50,722 was really important. 666 00:30:50,722 --> 00:30:52,680 Sorry, I think I rambled on a little bit there, 667 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,930 but I hope I got to your questions. 668 00:30:54,930 --> 00:30:57,030 DR. GAIN: So Husnain, do you have 669 00:30:57,030 --> 00:30:59,068 further a specific question? 670 00:30:59,068 --> 00:31:00,110 AUDIENCE: Yeah, one more. 671 00:31:00,110 --> 00:31:01,240 Yeah. 672 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,040 It is related to the water diplomacy win-win framework. 673 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,240 How do you think both parties agreed on this? 674 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,290 On a win-win side, for example, I read somewhere, 675 00:31:13,290 --> 00:31:15,390 I was doing some research on it yesterday, 676 00:31:15,390 --> 00:31:19,470 and I read that the tribes were allocated the national bison 677 00:31:19,470 --> 00:31:24,840 range, which I think somehow was an attractive thing for them 678 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,570 for agreeing to this treaty. 679 00:31:27,570 --> 00:31:30,910 There's a secondary note with this question is, 680 00:31:30,910 --> 00:31:32,460 you mentioned in one of your slides 681 00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:39,690 that the number of non-tribes is more than the actual tribal 682 00:31:39,690 --> 00:31:40,750 people. 683 00:31:40,750 --> 00:31:43,133 So given the-- 684 00:31:43,133 --> 00:31:44,550 I just want to understand from you 685 00:31:44,550 --> 00:31:46,620 what is the percentage of tribal people there 686 00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:48,060 and non-tribal people. 687 00:31:48,060 --> 00:31:51,450 And how do you think that balances or evens out 688 00:31:51,450 --> 00:31:55,867 the whole treaty and things in the Montana region? 689 00:31:55,867 --> 00:31:57,450 STUDENT PRESENTER: So just to clarify, 690 00:31:57,450 --> 00:32:02,730 the national bison range is on the Flathead reservation. 691 00:32:02,730 --> 00:32:10,870 So the tribes were given rights over the management 692 00:32:10,870 --> 00:32:12,340 of that range. 693 00:32:12,340 --> 00:32:14,200 But it was already on the reservation. 694 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,262 It wasn't something off reservation 695 00:32:16,262 --> 00:32:17,470 that they were fighting over. 696 00:32:17,470 --> 00:32:25,330 It was on reservation land that was under the legal authority 697 00:32:25,330 --> 00:32:29,440 of the tribes but managed in trust by the federal government 698 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,110 until this occurred. 699 00:32:32,110 --> 00:32:33,910 In terms of the-- sorry, what was 700 00:32:33,910 --> 00:32:39,340 your question about the numbers of non-tribal members? 701 00:32:39,340 --> 00:32:40,150 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 702 00:32:40,150 --> 00:32:44,290 I wanted to know that in this whole Montana 703 00:32:44,290 --> 00:32:49,690 region in which the treaty is enforced, 704 00:32:49,690 --> 00:32:52,600 what is the percentage of the tribal 705 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,700 people are there and the non-tribal people? 706 00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:57,857 How much benefit are they going to get, the non-tribal people? 707 00:32:57,857 --> 00:32:59,440 STUDENT PRESENTER: So I can't remember 708 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:00,865 the population of the tribe. 709 00:33:00,865 --> 00:33:01,990 I don't remember right now. 710 00:33:01,990 --> 00:33:06,725 I believe I believe it's about 8,000 and about 60% 711 00:33:06,725 --> 00:33:08,350 of the members live on the reservation. 712 00:33:08,350 --> 00:33:09,908 So I believe it's-- 713 00:33:09,908 --> 00:33:10,450 I don't know. 714 00:33:10,450 --> 00:33:12,380 The tribal members, maybe it's 5,000. 715 00:33:12,380 --> 00:33:15,280 I can't remember exactly right now how many tribal members 716 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,670 live on the reservation. 717 00:33:18,670 --> 00:33:23,103 It's a few times that in non-tribal members. 718 00:33:23,103 --> 00:33:24,520 I'm not sure of the exact numbers, 719 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,110 again, of non-tribal members who live on-reservation 720 00:33:26,110 --> 00:33:27,430 but it's a few times that. 721 00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:29,380 The town of Polson, which is the biggest 722 00:33:29,380 --> 00:33:33,170 town on the reservation, has a population of about three 723 00:33:33,170 --> 00:33:34,090 and a half thousand. 724 00:33:34,090 --> 00:33:36,470 There are many other small towns. 725 00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:42,430 So those rights, the tribes were given-- this agreement 726 00:33:42,430 --> 00:33:44,380 quantified, just to clarify, maybe 727 00:33:44,380 --> 00:33:46,810 I didn't make this clear before, this agreement quantified 728 00:33:46,810 --> 00:33:49,570 the tribe's rights on the reservation. 729 00:33:49,570 --> 00:33:52,570 But then there's still other water. 730 00:33:52,570 --> 00:33:55,780 So that other water then, because the tribe's rights 731 00:33:55,780 --> 00:33:59,350 are quantified, can now be claimed by non-tribal users 732 00:33:59,350 --> 00:34:02,620 on the reservation, if that makes sense. 733 00:34:02,620 --> 00:34:06,190 With regards to the irrigation project, 734 00:34:06,190 --> 00:34:09,280 the irrigation project included a number of delivery . 735 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,270 schedules and those delivery schedules were specifically 736 00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:19,179 to provide water to non-tribal irrigators who have 737 00:34:19,179 --> 00:34:20,732 historically used that water. 738 00:34:20,732 --> 00:34:22,690 And there was a lot of disagreement about that. 739 00:34:22,690 --> 00:34:26,290 Those irrigators, many of them argue 740 00:34:26,290 --> 00:34:28,420 that the amount of water they would be allocated 741 00:34:28,420 --> 00:34:29,920 was insufficient and they were going 742 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,780 to have to move their lands. 743 00:34:31,780 --> 00:34:35,560 And the state of Montana agreed to actually support them 744 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:41,260 by helping to invest in drip agriculture and other things. 745 00:34:41,260 --> 00:34:47,280 But it will protect over the long term 746 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,949 their rights, the non-tribal rights on the reservation. 747 00:34:49,949 --> 00:34:55,469 But the one limitation is that the tribal rights, which are 748 00:34:55,469 --> 00:34:57,795 quantified, now have priority. 749 00:34:57,795 --> 00:34:59,670 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I took Husnain's question 750 00:34:59,670 --> 00:35:02,190 to refer to proportionality. 751 00:35:02,190 --> 00:35:04,980 If you look at the overall benefits that 752 00:35:04,980 --> 00:35:08,970 are allocated to the federal government, the state 753 00:35:08,970 --> 00:35:13,050 government, the tribe, and non-tribal members 754 00:35:13,050 --> 00:35:17,820 living on the reservation, does the final agreement 755 00:35:17,820 --> 00:35:22,560 reflect some kind of proportionality, equal 756 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,550 proportion of gain? 757 00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:27,990 However measured, did everybody come out 758 00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:33,540 roughly the same relative to the gains that they got? 759 00:35:33,540 --> 00:35:35,670 Not in terms of how many people, but just 760 00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:37,550 in terms of these different categories. 761 00:35:37,550 --> 00:35:38,550 STUDENT PRESENTER: Yeah. 762 00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:39,508 That's a good question. 763 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,990 So in terms of number of people, I don't know. 764 00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:51,090 In terms of the categories, the non-irrigators 765 00:35:51,090 --> 00:35:54,000 on the reservation, yes. 766 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,560 So non-irrigators meaning not the irrigation project users. 767 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,520 The non-irrigators definitely did. 768 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:07,530 The municipalities are going to have sufficient water to grow. 769 00:36:07,530 --> 00:36:10,980 Homeowners and developers can build again 770 00:36:10,980 --> 00:36:14,610 for both reservation and non-reservation and non-tribal 771 00:36:14,610 --> 00:36:15,270 members. 772 00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:17,850 There's a significant amount of enough water 773 00:36:17,850 --> 00:36:22,010 and now enough legal clarity that that was a gain in itself. 774 00:36:22,010 --> 00:36:27,100 The group off reservation as well, 775 00:36:27,100 --> 00:36:32,340 I think that a lot of the off-reservation, definitely 776 00:36:32,340 --> 00:36:37,500 the non-tribal members of the citizens of the state 777 00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:40,950 gained a lot because the tribe event gave up 778 00:36:40,950 --> 00:36:42,120 a lot of their claims. 779 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,420 The one area where I think there's still disagreement on 780 00:36:45,420 --> 00:36:46,680 and I don't have a-- 781 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,850 I think that it's still very controversial 782 00:36:49,850 --> 00:36:51,600 and it will be throughout implementation-- 783 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:56,280 is on-reservation irrigators I think are one group that's 784 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,765 still a number of whom still feel like they did not have 785 00:37:00,765 --> 00:37:05,220 sufficient-- they did not gain sufficient protection 786 00:37:05,220 --> 00:37:07,508 as a result of the negotiations. 787 00:37:07,508 --> 00:37:08,550 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Good. 788 00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:09,490 That's a good answer. 789 00:37:09,490 --> 00:37:11,430 Thank you. 790 00:37:11,430 --> 00:37:14,980 DR. GAIN: Anselmo, do you have any feedback or a question 791 00:37:14,980 --> 00:37:16,410 to Aron? 792 00:37:16,410 --> 00:37:18,330 AUDIENCE: Yes, I will be very quickly. 793 00:37:18,330 --> 00:37:21,090 First, Aron, congratulations for your case. 794 00:37:21,090 --> 00:37:22,050 Very well done. 795 00:37:22,050 --> 00:37:23,440 Very well. 796 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,350 It's a complex case study. 797 00:37:26,350 --> 00:37:28,100 I just want to highlight some points here. 798 00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:29,610 I appreciate the historic context 799 00:37:29,610 --> 00:37:33,960 that you gave from 1855 into 2000. 800 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,230 Also I liked to learn a lot about the "first in time, 801 00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:42,090 first in right" that you mentioned before that 1973. 802 00:37:42,090 --> 00:37:46,020 And you mentioned that the facilitator 803 00:37:46,020 --> 00:37:49,920 arrived in the negotiation only in 2011. 804 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,400 But even with the facilitator, it took 9 years 805 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,990 to reach the agreement. 806 00:37:55,990 --> 00:37:57,690 STUDENT PRESENTER: So to clarify, 807 00:37:57,690 --> 00:38:00,810 it actually took-- so the facilitator arrived in 2011. 808 00:38:00,810 --> 00:38:04,707 They reached their first agreement in 2013. 809 00:38:04,707 --> 00:38:06,540 So that was when they reached the agreement. 810 00:38:06,540 --> 00:38:11,310 Then as a result, the result of the state legislature voting it 811 00:38:11,310 --> 00:38:16,710 down, they renegotiated the agreement in 2015. 812 00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:20,340 And at that point, it was just sitting in Congress. 813 00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:22,540 So they weren't negotiating anymore. 814 00:38:22,540 --> 00:38:25,545 There were some minor things that were changed, 815 00:38:25,545 --> 00:38:28,000 and the facilitator is actually still involved. 816 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,320 But it actually only took two years with him 817 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:32,550 to reach that agreement. 818 00:38:32,550 --> 00:38:33,550 AUDIENCE: Oh, two years. 819 00:38:33,550 --> 00:38:35,322 Oh, great. 820 00:38:35,322 --> 00:38:36,780 Aron, you don't have to do it here, 821 00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:40,230 because I know Gemma has to present the Columbia 822 00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:44,370 presentation, but if you can describe more in your paper 823 00:38:44,370 --> 00:38:47,370 the negotiation process with the Compact Commission, 824 00:38:47,370 --> 00:38:51,555 I like a lot the slide you post there with the 90 members. 825 00:38:51,555 --> 00:38:53,430 And if you can compare with the water managed 826 00:38:53,430 --> 00:38:56,010 board, that's only having five members, right? 827 00:38:56,010 --> 00:38:59,010 Six members, but only five can vote. 828 00:38:59,010 --> 00:39:01,170 It's only-- I really appreciate. 829 00:39:01,170 --> 00:39:02,130 Congratulations. 830 00:39:02,130 --> 00:39:04,260 STUDENT PRESENTER: Thank you. 831 00:39:04,260 --> 00:39:06,110 Trying to understand the negotiation process 832 00:39:06,110 --> 00:39:08,700 has been really tricky. 833 00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:13,230 I've read and I've heard that there are transcripts 834 00:39:13,230 --> 00:39:16,470 of the negotiations out there, but I've actually 835 00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:17,790 called around. 836 00:39:17,790 --> 00:39:21,660 I've called the DRC and a number of other people 837 00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:23,160 who would probably do them, and I've 838 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,452 emailed people who mentioned them, who have cited them, 839 00:39:25,452 --> 00:39:26,700 and I can't find them. 840 00:39:29,850 --> 00:39:31,720 I have a lot of the, what's it called, 841 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:36,450 the topic lists, but not the-- but not 842 00:39:36,450 --> 00:39:40,340 the transcripts themselves, which is a disappointment. 843 00:39:40,340 --> 00:39:44,000 DR. GAIN: So any other question or comments 844 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,330 from Flora or Gemma? 845 00:39:48,330 --> 00:39:49,080 OK. 846 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,455 STUDENT PRESENTER: Thank you all. 847 00:39:50,455 --> 00:39:52,370 Appreciate your feedback. 848 00:39:52,370 --> 00:39:53,830 DR. GAIN: Yes. 849 00:39:53,830 --> 00:39:57,110 Maybe before Larry, I would like to ask one thing. 850 00:39:57,110 --> 00:40:02,600 So how does national politics played a role? 851 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,020 Because I learned that the corporation-- 852 00:40:06,020 --> 00:40:10,040 the state legislator, specifically 853 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,360 the Republican legislator, is not 854 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,600 in favor of this water right issue. 855 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:23,270 And there is some issue within the Republican 856 00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:24,950 and there are some conflicts. 857 00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:30,200 So how does it play a role in the negotiation 858 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,090 process in this treaty? 859 00:40:34,090 --> 00:40:37,360 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I defy anybody to explain that. 860 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:38,260 Anybody. 861 00:40:38,260 --> 00:40:39,910 I don't care who they are. 862 00:40:39,910 --> 00:40:43,300 Because there's what the system is designed to do 863 00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:47,560 and there's what the political system actually does. 864 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,870 And what it actually does is a function 865 00:40:49,870 --> 00:40:53,320 of who has the majority and who's 866 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,780 in leadership in the executive branch. 867 00:40:55,780 --> 00:40:59,350 And it doesn't matter what it says on paper about what 868 00:40:59,350 --> 00:41:01,940 is a state's right, what is a national government's 869 00:41:01,940 --> 00:41:05,470 right, what is executive, what is legislative. 870 00:41:05,470 --> 00:41:06,740 Doesn't matter. 871 00:41:06,740 --> 00:41:09,280 It all changes every time there's 872 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,440 a shift in power and relationships. 873 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:18,040 So there is no way to answer the question about what 874 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:23,350 is this crazy intergovernmental system we have supposed to do 875 00:41:23,350 --> 00:41:25,030 relative to Indian rights. 876 00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:27,880 Because you then also have the court entering. 877 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,830 We have these three branches. 878 00:41:29,830 --> 00:41:33,310 And the Supreme Court got involved in this case 879 00:41:33,310 --> 00:41:36,040 at one stage, as you heard from Aron. 880 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,190 And you have the state legislature 881 00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:43,360 and you have the federal government legislature, 882 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:44,350 the Congress. 883 00:41:44,350 --> 00:41:46,900 But you also have the agencies. 884 00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:49,150 And the agencies have responsibilities 885 00:41:49,150 --> 00:41:52,870 for the tribes, the Interior Department. 886 00:41:52,870 --> 00:41:57,040 It is an insanely complicated system, 887 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,680 and it's very hard to know what's 888 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,620 going on even when it's happening, 889 00:42:02,620 --> 00:42:05,280 because it's not transparent. 890 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:11,850 And people make all kinds of private deals and other issues 891 00:42:11,850 --> 00:42:14,790 get traded off against the issue you're interested in. 892 00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:16,980 And you don't even know that that's why 893 00:42:16,980 --> 00:42:19,500 somebody voted a certain way. 894 00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:21,420 They didn't care about the issue, 895 00:42:21,420 --> 00:42:23,400 but they got something from somebody else 896 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:24,730 for something else. 897 00:42:24,730 --> 00:42:27,390 So unraveling all of that, I mean, 898 00:42:27,390 --> 00:42:31,860 I think Aron did a wonderful job, as best you can do, 899 00:42:31,860 --> 00:42:36,550 of at least getting a timeline and looking at the outcomes. 900 00:42:36,550 --> 00:42:38,190 But the process? 901 00:42:38,190 --> 00:42:41,970 I mean, even with the transcript, 902 00:42:41,970 --> 00:42:44,460 it's indecipherable. 903 00:42:44,460 --> 00:42:50,420 And everything related to Native Americans in the United States 904 00:42:50,420 --> 00:42:55,650 doesn't go the way the law says it's supposed to. 905 00:42:55,650 --> 00:43:00,120 Every treaty has been broken, continues to be broken. 906 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:05,400 Every promise, everything that the US government promised 907 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:11,690 and committed to, none of it's been upheld. 908 00:43:11,690 --> 00:43:14,890 And so yeah, I can point to what the system says. 909 00:43:14,890 --> 00:43:18,160 And somebody can hold up a treaty and say, look here. 910 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,020 I'm guaranteed certain rights. 911 00:43:20,020 --> 00:43:22,970 Yeah, well, try to get it enforced. 912 00:43:22,970 --> 00:43:28,300 So it's the complexity of the US intergovernmental system 913 00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:31,960 and the extent to which it's really not transparent, 914 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,832 what's happening, make it impossible to answer 915 00:43:35,832 --> 00:43:36,415 your question. 916 00:43:39,432 --> 00:43:40,140 DR. GAIN: Thanks. 917 00:43:40,140 --> 00:43:43,950 So maybe for the final paper, I would like to ask, 918 00:43:43,950 --> 00:43:47,190 because this is one of the treaty that is successful 919 00:43:47,190 --> 00:43:49,990 recently in terms of water treaty. 920 00:43:49,990 --> 00:43:55,170 So maybe you can share very specific lessons learned 921 00:43:55,170 --> 00:43:57,900 from the negotiation process. 922 00:43:57,900 --> 00:44:00,570 I think that would be much more helpful in terms 923 00:44:00,570 --> 00:44:02,670 of water diplomacy aspect. 924 00:44:02,670 --> 00:44:07,260 I think as this is very new kind of treaty that is successful 925 00:44:07,260 --> 00:44:10,140 and how the process works and what 926 00:44:10,140 --> 00:44:14,800 are the general lesson learned. 927 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,460 I think that would be much more interesting things. 928 00:44:17,460 --> 00:44:19,710 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I really liked the four concluding 929 00:44:19,710 --> 00:44:20,730 points that you had. 930 00:44:20,730 --> 00:44:26,160 I think those were very strong. 931 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,870 And as long as in the text you will elaborate on them 932 00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:34,260 slightly, but as four concluding points 933 00:44:34,260 --> 00:44:36,270 in terms of what can be learned from this case, 934 00:44:36,270 --> 00:44:38,790 I think they're terrific. 935 00:44:38,790 --> 00:44:40,550 STUDENT PRESENTER: Thank you.