WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.964 [SQUEAKING] 00:00:01.964 --> 00:00:03.928 [RUSTLING] 00:00:03.928 --> 00:00:06.383 [CLICKING] 00:00:21.130 --> 00:00:24.400 FLORA KLISE: Today, I am going to be giving you 00:00:24.400 --> 00:00:28.240 a full run-through of the Singapore-Malaysia water 00:00:28.240 --> 00:00:28.828 conflict. 00:00:28.828 --> 00:00:31.120 This is something I knew nothing about before the class 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:35.500 but I've really enjoyed learning more about during this process 00:00:35.500 --> 00:00:38.080 and applying the things we've learned in the class 00:00:38.080 --> 00:00:39.230 this semester. 00:00:39.230 --> 00:00:42.855 So, please, ask questions if things are not clear. 00:00:42.855 --> 00:00:44.230 I can't promise I have an answer, 00:00:44.230 --> 00:00:46.090 but I'm excited to share what I've learned. 00:00:49.120 --> 00:00:52.120 So these are the things I'm going to run through today, 00:00:52.120 --> 00:00:54.970 basically give you an overview of the case, then dive 00:00:54.970 --> 00:00:57.790 into the water resources for both areas 00:00:57.790 --> 00:01:00.430 and the key stakeholders, as well 00:01:00.430 --> 00:01:03.280 as a brief overview of the agreements, 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:06.160 and then try to spend the bulk of the presentation talking 00:01:06.160 --> 00:01:08.020 about the water diplomacy framework 00:01:08.020 --> 00:01:11.570 and how I see room for improvement. 00:01:11.570 --> 00:01:13.750 So this is a map of the region, just 00:01:13.750 --> 00:01:16.600 in case you're not familiar with this part of Southeast Asia. 00:01:16.600 --> 00:01:18.940 So Malaysia is much larger than Singapore. 00:01:18.940 --> 00:01:21.070 And, for this case, we're only considering 00:01:21.070 --> 00:01:23.590 peninsular Malaysia, which is on the left, 00:01:23.590 --> 00:01:27.310 and, specifically, Johor, which is the state that 00:01:27.310 --> 00:01:28.990 is most southernmost. 00:01:28.990 --> 00:01:30.980 And it's hard to tell from this perspective, 00:01:30.980 --> 00:01:35.140 but Singapore and Malaysia are separated by a small water 00:01:35.140 --> 00:01:37.270 body called the Johor Strait. 00:01:37.270 --> 00:01:41.200 And connecting the two countries physically is the Johor 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:46.780 Causeway, or more commonly known as just the Causeway. 00:01:46.780 --> 00:01:50.080 So a summary of this case can be summed up 00:01:50.080 --> 00:01:51.710 in these couple of bullet points. 00:01:51.710 --> 00:01:54.940 So current water agreements regulate the importation 00:01:54.940 --> 00:01:58.300 of raw water from Johor, Malaysia, to Singapore 00:01:58.300 --> 00:02:02.380 and importation of treated water from Singapore to Johor. 00:02:02.380 --> 00:02:04.630 So this map shows a simple overview 00:02:04.630 --> 00:02:06.280 of the Johor River basin. 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:09.669 And you can see the prominent Johor River and the Linggiu 00:02:09.669 --> 00:02:10.539 Reservoir. 00:02:10.539 --> 00:02:12.400 And then the dotted line represents 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:16.810 the series of pipes that cross the Johor Strait. 00:02:16.810 --> 00:02:19.240 There is also complex river networks 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:22.780 that offshoot from the main river, 00:02:22.780 --> 00:02:25.150 as well as you can see the Johor River 00:02:25.150 --> 00:02:28.010 Barrage, which is something I'll talk about a little bit more. 00:02:28.010 --> 00:02:31.370 That was a joint project to improve the water supply. 00:02:31.370 --> 00:02:34.000 There have been four main agreements signed 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.180 between the two parties, and the last agreements 00:02:37.180 --> 00:02:39.130 will expire in 2061. 00:02:39.130 --> 00:02:40.480 That's a number that-- 00:02:40.480 --> 00:02:42.850 or year that's going to come up a lot. 00:02:42.850 --> 00:02:46.180 And, despite ongoing negotiations since 1990, 00:02:46.180 --> 00:02:49.360 they've still failed to reach another agreement. 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:51.640 Singapore is classified as water-stressed 00:02:51.640 --> 00:02:54.160 and relies on water from Johor to currently meet 00:02:54.160 --> 00:02:57.430 40% of its water demand, so extremely significant. 00:02:57.430 --> 00:03:01.630 And they're unable to meet their demand without this imported 00:03:01.630 --> 00:03:03.010 water. 00:03:03.010 --> 00:03:05.860 And a blossoming issue is the fact 00:03:05.860 --> 00:03:08.890 that Johor has increasing issues with meeting its own water 00:03:08.890 --> 00:03:12.070 demand due to a combination of increased pollution 00:03:12.070 --> 00:03:15.380 as well as droughts. 00:03:15.380 --> 00:03:18.290 So, to talk about Malaysian water resources, 00:03:18.290 --> 00:03:21.530 Malaysia is fortunate to have very abundant water resources. 00:03:21.530 --> 00:03:23.240 Despite being so close to Singapore, 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:25.100 it has quite a different landscape. 00:03:25.100 --> 00:03:28.460 It's covered in rainforests and experiences heavy rainfall 00:03:28.460 --> 00:03:30.740 almost all year. 00:03:30.740 --> 00:03:34.010 Some Malaysian states do suffer from chronic water shortages 00:03:34.010 --> 00:03:36.520 while others are experiencing surpluses. 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:39.380 So how is that possible? 00:03:39.380 --> 00:03:43.070 Before 1992, state governments had almost complete control 00:03:43.070 --> 00:03:46.040 over surface water resources. 00:03:46.040 --> 00:03:51.110 So I guess you can-- 00:03:51.110 --> 00:03:54.860 so, as a result, there's been a lot 00:03:54.860 --> 00:03:58.310 of issues of water management between the state 00:03:58.310 --> 00:04:00.030 government and the federal government, 00:04:00.030 --> 00:04:04.850 which has tried to become more involved as more issues arise 00:04:04.850 --> 00:04:06.770 across the states that are common 00:04:06.770 --> 00:04:10.070 and related to water resources. 00:04:10.070 --> 00:04:12.020 Climate change and droughts put Malaysia 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:14.360 at an increasing risk of becoming water-stressed 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:17.029 in the next 50 years, according to research 00:04:17.029 --> 00:04:22.610 done by institutions such as the World Resources Institute. 00:04:22.610 --> 00:04:25.700 I used their Water Risk Atlas a lot 00:04:25.700 --> 00:04:30.440 to help shape my projections for this case. 00:04:30.440 --> 00:04:32.120 And I think it's really important 00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:36.140 to note that currently, Malaysia, and specifically 00:04:36.140 --> 00:04:39.620 Johor, has a lot of water and could manage it more 00:04:39.620 --> 00:04:40.910 efficiently to meet its needs. 00:04:40.910 --> 00:04:43.160 But it's possible, even managed efficiently, 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:46.620 they won't be able to do so in the future. 00:04:46.620 --> 00:04:48.350 And I think kind of the biggest point 00:04:48.350 --> 00:04:50.690 here is that Malaysia does not manage its water 00:04:50.690 --> 00:04:52.700 resources effectively currently, which 00:04:52.700 --> 00:04:56.030 is a big reason driving why they're unable to meet 00:04:56.030 --> 00:04:58.820 their water demand. 00:04:58.820 --> 00:05:01.190 This includes insufficient infrastructure 00:05:01.190 --> 00:05:03.740 to collect rainfall, extreme water 00:05:03.740 --> 00:05:06.800 pollution due to unregulated practices of mining, 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:10.100 logging, land development, and sewage disposal. 00:05:10.100 --> 00:05:13.340 They have almost no water conservation efforts. 00:05:13.340 --> 00:05:18.260 They're hesitant to invest in alternative water resources, 00:05:18.260 --> 00:05:21.800 so things like desalination or wastewater reuse. 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:24.770 And, still, despite all of these things 00:05:24.770 --> 00:05:27.140 they have agreements in place to export water 00:05:27.140 --> 00:05:30.140 to both Singapore and Malacca. 00:05:30.140 --> 00:05:32.030 So the image here on the upper right 00:05:32.030 --> 00:05:35.720 is from part of a river in Johor, 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:37.680 and it was taken many years ago. 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:40.400 So it's actually much harder to find natural river-- 00:05:40.400 --> 00:05:42.170 or water resources that don't more 00:05:42.170 --> 00:05:45.230 resemble that bottom image, where there's just 00:05:45.230 --> 00:05:52.190 a lot of pollution buildup and very poor water quality. 00:05:52.190 --> 00:05:56.270 So Singapore water resources is quite the different story. 00:05:56.270 --> 00:05:58.450 The main issue that Singapore faces 00:05:58.450 --> 00:06:00.370 is that it doesn't have enough natural water 00:06:00.370 --> 00:06:03.950 supply to support their growing population and economy. 00:06:03.950 --> 00:06:06.970 And, since 1965, when Singapore and Malaysia 00:06:06.970 --> 00:06:11.590 separated from their brief union quite acrimoniously, 00:06:11.590 --> 00:06:15.220 Singapore has made a very extreme effort 00:06:15.220 --> 00:06:17.470 to implement a three-pronged strategy 00:06:17.470 --> 00:06:19.840 to decrease their water vulnerability and water 00:06:19.840 --> 00:06:23.800 dependence, especially from Malaysia, by 2061, when 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:26.660 their current agreements are going to expire. 00:06:26.660 --> 00:06:28.870 So this three-pronged approach first 00:06:28.870 --> 00:06:31.450 focused on optimizing their domestic water 00:06:31.450 --> 00:06:35.230 supply by building dams and reservoirs. 00:06:35.230 --> 00:06:39.280 They have built a total of 11 reservoirs in addition 00:06:39.280 --> 00:06:43.540 to three that existed before 1965. 00:06:43.540 --> 00:06:45.190 These reservoirs cover about half 00:06:45.190 --> 00:06:47.110 of Singapore's total land area. 00:06:47.110 --> 00:06:50.620 You can see in this image in the upper right 00:06:50.620 --> 00:06:53.650 a glimpse of where the reservoirs are. 00:06:53.650 --> 00:06:57.410 It's hard to tell, but there's small colorful dots. 00:06:57.410 --> 00:06:58.570 This is from 2014. 00:06:58.570 --> 00:07:00.100 But these are all the projects that 00:07:00.100 --> 00:07:05.350 are started or finished having to do with water catchment. 00:07:05.350 --> 00:07:07.780 So, actually, after 1986, there's 00:07:07.780 --> 00:07:11.590 almost no opportunities to increase their water catchment 00:07:11.590 --> 00:07:15.380 just due to restrictions and land area. 00:07:15.380 --> 00:07:19.220 So they then turn to the second two prongs of their strategy, 00:07:19.220 --> 00:07:21.880 which includes securing alternative water 00:07:21.880 --> 00:07:25.330 supplies through seawater desalination, wastewater 00:07:25.330 --> 00:07:25.840 reuse-- 00:07:25.840 --> 00:07:28.390 which they're one of the most advanced systems in the world. 00:07:28.390 --> 00:07:32.260 They have a reclaimed water program called NEWater-- 00:07:32.260 --> 00:07:35.500 and negotiating a new agreement with Indonesia 00:07:35.500 --> 00:07:37.130 for imported water. 00:07:37.130 --> 00:07:39.130 I'm really not going to focus on that third one, 00:07:39.130 --> 00:07:42.130 because they haven't reached an agreement yet. 00:07:42.130 --> 00:07:45.755 But the other two are part of their-- 00:07:45.755 --> 00:07:48.130 have currently already started to be implemented and hope 00:07:48.130 --> 00:07:50.020 to increase in the future. 00:07:50.020 --> 00:07:51.670 And the final prong of their approach 00:07:51.670 --> 00:07:53.620 is to improve water conservation. 00:07:53.620 --> 00:07:56.680 So they also went at this quite aggressively. 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.340 They added regulations as well as monetary incentives 00:08:00.340 --> 00:08:02.680 for individuals as well as businesses. 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:06.490 They've made investments in new water conservation technology 00:08:06.490 --> 00:08:08.980 as well as improving existing infrastructure 00:08:08.980 --> 00:08:12.520 to decrease the amount of water lost to leaks. 00:08:12.520 --> 00:08:16.120 And then, they also launched a large budget education 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:17.150 campaign. 00:08:17.150 --> 00:08:18.730 So it was very successful. 00:08:18.730 --> 00:08:23.110 Already, Singapore is experiencing a 0.2% decrease 00:08:23.110 --> 00:08:26.650 in water consumption per year despite continued population 00:08:26.650 --> 00:08:28.882 and economic growth, so very impressive. 00:08:28.882 --> 00:08:30.340 Most parts of the world, especially 00:08:30.340 --> 00:08:32.650 with developing economies, are increasing 00:08:32.650 --> 00:08:37.280 water consumption per capita, so pretty interesting. 00:08:37.280 --> 00:08:42.039 And then, here, this is a slightly outdated infographic 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:45.070 published by Singapore's Public Utilities Board, also known 00:08:45.070 --> 00:08:48.460 as PUB, which shows Singapore's plan for decreasing 00:08:48.460 --> 00:08:52.570 the reliance on imported water and increasing their reliance 00:08:52.570 --> 00:08:55.190 on reclaimed water from wastewater, 00:08:55.190 --> 00:08:57.850 which is the NEWater campaign, which currently supplies 00:08:57.850 --> 00:08:59.980 30% of their water demand. 00:08:59.980 --> 00:09:04.000 But they have ambitious plans to be relying on it 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:07.960 for about up to 55% by 2060. 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:10.600 And then seawater desalination is currently 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:15.490 10% of their water demand, but they hope to be up to 30% 00:09:15.490 --> 00:09:17.090 by 2060. 00:09:17.090 --> 00:09:19.660 So, again, they're really-- 00:09:19.660 --> 00:09:23.710 I think the domestic water supply is about 20% 00:09:23.710 --> 00:09:24.970 and won't really change. 00:09:24.970 --> 00:09:27.520 So they're hoping that if they are 00:09:27.520 --> 00:09:29.410 successful in this three-pronged approach, 00:09:29.410 --> 00:09:31.720 they wouldn't be reliant on Malaysia. 00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:35.380 But, as I mentioned at the beginning, currently, 00:09:35.380 --> 00:09:38.650 they're still 40% reliant on water from Malaysia. 00:09:38.650 --> 00:09:41.260 And it seems pretty unlikely that they'll 00:09:41.260 --> 00:09:47.400 be 100% independent in just 40 years. 00:09:47.400 --> 00:09:50.370 So, next, I want to talk about the key stakeholders 00:09:50.370 --> 00:09:52.720 in the water negotiations. 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.710 So I'm not very familiar with the governmental structure 00:09:55.710 --> 00:09:57.270 of Singapore and Malaysia. 00:09:57.270 --> 00:10:00.270 So, based on my research about the water conflict, 00:10:00.270 --> 00:10:03.300 I'm going to show you the stakeholders that stood out. 00:10:03.300 --> 00:10:04.770 In my paper, I mentioned more about 00:10:04.770 --> 00:10:08.400 how media had a unique role in the water conflict. 00:10:08.400 --> 00:10:11.220 Basically, news about water negotiations and agreements 00:10:11.220 --> 00:10:14.460 were widely covered in the local newspapers in both Singapore 00:10:14.460 --> 00:10:17.640 and Malaysia, where the newspapers were not 00:10:17.640 --> 00:10:20.100 only publishing factual news coverage. 00:10:20.100 --> 00:10:24.150 There is also increasingly negative partisan editorials 00:10:24.150 --> 00:10:25.990 and letters that were shared. 00:10:25.990 --> 00:10:28.560 So this, combined with the lack of transparency 00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:31.470 from both governments, went so far as-- 00:10:31.470 --> 00:10:33.660 like, one point, the governments were just 00:10:33.660 --> 00:10:36.150 communicating with each other through the newspapers. 00:10:36.150 --> 00:10:38.610 So one government official in Singapore 00:10:38.610 --> 00:10:42.030 read a Malaysian newspaper with a public statement 00:10:42.030 --> 00:10:44.190 from a Malaysian official that had not 00:10:44.190 --> 00:10:47.140 been talked about officially behind closed doors. 00:10:47.140 --> 00:10:50.610 So then, they had to release a different statement 00:10:50.610 --> 00:10:52.990 to their local newspapers and on and on. 00:10:52.990 --> 00:10:56.070 So it is quite complex and something 00:10:56.070 --> 00:10:58.470 that I didn't want to muddle this idea, 00:10:58.470 --> 00:11:01.410 but it meant that there's a lot of stakeholders with opinions 00:11:01.410 --> 00:11:04.410 about the negotiations that are not at the table, 00:11:04.410 --> 00:11:10.440 so people or groups representing ecology as well as competing 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:15.160 minority political groups in both territories. 00:11:15.160 --> 00:11:18.840 So, here, we're going to talk about the Malaysian key 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:21.420 stakeholders, which are stakeholders from both the 00:11:21.420 --> 00:11:23.260 federal and state governments. 00:11:23.260 --> 00:11:25.140 So much of Malaysia's water management 00:11:25.140 --> 00:11:26.500 happens at the state level. 00:11:26.500 --> 00:11:29.340 However, Malaysia's political relationship with Singapore 00:11:29.340 --> 00:11:31.650 inherently involves federal stakeholders. 00:11:31.650 --> 00:11:34.950 So that would be people like the prime ministers. 00:11:34.950 --> 00:11:37.470 Later, I'll mention that a change in Malaysian leadership 00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:39.130 will improve negotiations. 00:11:39.130 --> 00:11:44.160 So that's due to Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, whose picture 00:11:44.160 --> 00:11:47.250 is placed on the right, because he 00:11:47.250 --> 00:11:50.370 was a driving force preventing further water agreements 00:11:50.370 --> 00:11:55.560 from being reached during his position as prime minister. 00:11:55.560 --> 00:11:58.500 And, unfortunately for water diplomacy, 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:04.230 he governed two times separately and basically has 00:12:04.230 --> 00:12:08.640 a very primary focus on water pricing 00:12:08.640 --> 00:12:11.160 and wanting to increase water prices for Singapore. 00:12:11.160 --> 00:12:15.750 And, unfortunately, a focus on competitive pricing 00:12:15.750 --> 00:12:19.170 is just not conducive to progress. 00:12:19.170 --> 00:12:23.400 So, anyway, the National Water Council and the National Water 00:12:23.400 --> 00:12:26.850 Resources Council were created in the 1990s 00:12:26.850 --> 00:12:29.910 to improve water management, specifically between the state 00:12:29.910 --> 00:12:31.650 and federal levels. 00:12:31.650 --> 00:12:35.040 But I would say, overall, Malaysia's water management 00:12:35.040 --> 00:12:39.930 is still relatively disorganized and ultimately ineffective. 00:12:39.930 --> 00:12:43.020 And that's just a challenge that will need to be addressed. 00:12:43.020 --> 00:12:47.160 And then, finally, the BAKAJ is a Malaysian counterpart 00:12:47.160 --> 00:12:51.030 of the PUB, which is the Singapore Public Utilities 00:12:51.030 --> 00:12:53.520 Board that runs their water management. 00:12:53.520 --> 00:12:56.550 So, currently, BAKAJ and PUB have monthly meetings 00:12:56.550 --> 00:13:00.270 to discuss water topics. 00:13:00.270 --> 00:13:03.450 Quickly, to go over the Singaporean key stakeholders, 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:05.370 as I've mentioned several times now, 00:13:05.370 --> 00:13:09.660 their management is led by the PUB, which was founded in 1963 00:13:09.660 --> 00:13:13.230 and is part of the Ministry of Sustainability and Environment 00:13:13.230 --> 00:13:14.550 in Singapore. 00:13:14.550 --> 00:13:17.340 Publicly, the Singaporean prime ministers, and more 00:13:17.340 --> 00:13:21.900 recently, the minister of foreign affairs, 00:13:21.900 --> 00:13:24.540 Minister Vivian, has been quite involved 00:13:24.540 --> 00:13:26.880 in the diplomatic relations with Malaysia. 00:13:26.880 --> 00:13:28.470 And they're the ones who would be 00:13:28.470 --> 00:13:31.230 responsible for signing any official agreements 00:13:31.230 --> 00:13:35.840 between Malaysia and Singapore. 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:39.370 So, in my paper, I have a pretty in-depth description 00:13:39.370 --> 00:13:42.520 of the terms of all four water agreements between Singapore 00:13:42.520 --> 00:13:43.090 and Malaysia. 00:13:43.090 --> 00:13:44.590 But, for the sake of time, I'm going 00:13:44.590 --> 00:13:47.560 to highlight the main points that you need to understand. 00:13:47.560 --> 00:13:52.420 So, starting in 1927, Singapore rented a plot of land in Johor 00:13:52.420 --> 00:13:55.030 at an annual rate and then can use all the water 00:13:55.030 --> 00:13:57.340 found in and on the land. 00:13:57.340 --> 00:14:00.130 In return, Johor would buy back specific amounts 00:14:00.130 --> 00:14:02.680 of treated water from Singapore. 00:14:02.680 --> 00:14:05.290 An interesting thing to note is that this agreement allowed 00:14:05.290 --> 00:14:08.950 for increases in land and treated water purchased 00:14:08.950 --> 00:14:13.870 and traded, expecting that the water needs would change 00:14:13.870 --> 00:14:16.810 and they would probably want to increase that. 00:14:16.810 --> 00:14:18.880 So they specifically wrote that in. 00:14:18.880 --> 00:14:23.800 The 1961 and 1962 agreements replaced the 1927 agreement. 00:14:23.800 --> 00:14:26.230 They expanded the amount of resources that would 00:14:26.230 --> 00:14:28.660 be traded between the two. 00:14:28.660 --> 00:14:32.560 They defined a certain rate at which the prices-- 00:14:32.560 --> 00:14:33.800 the water would be bought. 00:14:33.800 --> 00:14:40.450 So, in this agreement, Singapore would buy water, raw water, 00:14:40.450 --> 00:14:43.390 from Johor at 3 sen per 1,000 gallons, 00:14:43.390 --> 00:14:45.400 while Malaysia would buy treated water 00:14:45.400 --> 00:14:47.510 for 50 sen per 1,000 gallons. 00:14:47.510 --> 00:14:49.780 So I mention that because the agreements 00:14:49.780 --> 00:14:55.030 both include a joint price review every 25 years. 00:14:55.030 --> 00:14:58.190 Unfortunately, none of the times that they've met-- 00:14:58.190 --> 00:15:02.230 so I think the last one was in 1986 and 1987-- 00:15:02.230 --> 00:15:04.780 they weren't able to reach any update even 00:15:04.780 --> 00:15:06.250 though an update was necessary. 00:15:06.250 --> 00:15:09.160 It's like both sides kept asking for a little bit too much. 00:15:09.160 --> 00:15:11.890 So, as a result, they got no agreement. 00:15:11.890 --> 00:15:15.010 So, to this day, the water is still 00:15:15.010 --> 00:15:18.850 being sold for 3 sen per 1,000 gallons and 50 sen. 00:15:18.850 --> 00:15:20.950 So that would really come back later 00:15:20.950 --> 00:15:23.960 when I talk about what needs to be done. 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:26.470 And, finally, the 1990 agreement was an extension 00:15:26.470 --> 00:15:28.120 of the 1962 agreement. 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:31.930 It authorized a new construction of another dam. 00:15:31.930 --> 00:15:34.690 Singapore has made a lot of infrastructure investments 00:15:34.690 --> 00:15:37.270 in Johor to increase their water supply 00:15:37.270 --> 00:15:40.570 but also benefits the local Johor community, and completely 00:15:40.570 --> 00:15:44.050 at the Singaporean expense. 00:15:44.050 --> 00:15:48.670 I guess, to sum up, the one agreement expired in 2011, 00:15:48.670 --> 00:15:51.610 and then there's two that are still active. 00:15:51.610 --> 00:15:54.250 But, again, they were not able to renew 00:15:54.250 --> 00:15:56.740 the one that expired in 2011. 00:15:56.740 --> 00:15:59.830 So, as a result, Singapore had to decrease the amount of water 00:15:59.830 --> 00:16:02.125 they imported from Malaysia. 00:16:04.900 --> 00:16:08.200 A couple of supplemental things that you might care about 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:10.510 is the 1965 Separation Agreement, 00:16:10.510 --> 00:16:12.820 which is also known as the Independence of Singapore 00:16:12.820 --> 00:16:13.870 agreement. 00:16:13.870 --> 00:16:16.240 And it included a clause ensuring that Malaysia would 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:18.430 abide by the terms of the water agreements 00:16:18.430 --> 00:16:21.970 already signed to ensure Singapore's water security. 00:16:21.970 --> 00:16:25.600 And this was filed with the United Nations. 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:30.220 The 1998 through 2003 water pricing negotiations 00:16:30.220 --> 00:16:33.400 were a time when Malaysia and Singapore were trying 00:16:33.400 --> 00:16:37.600 to negotiate another agreement that would last for 100 years 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.900 to extend this deadline of 2061. 00:16:40.900 --> 00:16:43.300 Malaysia was motivated because they needed finances 00:16:43.300 --> 00:16:45.580 from Singapore to back their currency because there 00:16:45.580 --> 00:16:48.160 was a financial crisis. 00:16:48.160 --> 00:16:51.730 And Singapore just wanted to secure water resources 00:16:51.730 --> 00:16:53.980 for an extended period of time. 00:16:53.980 --> 00:16:56.230 Once Malaysia no longer needed the finances 00:16:56.230 --> 00:16:58.010 because they got it from somewhere else, 00:16:58.010 --> 00:17:00.520 the negotiations were reduced to debates about the water 00:17:00.520 --> 00:17:02.830 pricing, packaging the water, policies 00:17:02.830 --> 00:17:08.079 with other partisan issues, and just got out of control. 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.119 In these negotiations, Malaysia tried 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:11.980 to increase the price of raw water 00:17:11.980 --> 00:17:16.910 from 3 sen per 1,000 gallons to 45 sen, then 60 00:17:16.910 --> 00:17:21.940 sen, and finally, 625 sen per 1,000 gallons in 2002. 00:17:21.940 --> 00:17:26.710 And, as you might expect, no agreement was made. 00:17:26.710 --> 00:17:30.580 Finally, I highlight the Johor River Barrage project, 00:17:30.580 --> 00:17:34.270 which was a three-year project funded by Singapore 00:17:34.270 --> 00:17:39.640 and addressed the saltwater intrusion to the Johor River 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:40.840 Basin. 00:17:40.840 --> 00:17:45.250 So that's an example of both Johor 00:17:45.250 --> 00:17:49.750 and Singapore were suffering from a reduced quality of water 00:17:49.750 --> 00:17:50.680 in the river basin. 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.350 So Singapore agreed to fund a project that 00:17:53.350 --> 00:18:00.410 would improve these and ensure a longer-term water resource. 00:18:00.410 --> 00:18:04.060 So now, I would love to talk about the water diplomacy 00:18:04.060 --> 00:18:05.500 framework and how this fits in. 00:18:05.500 --> 00:18:07.600 So the Singapore-Malaysia water conflict 00:18:07.600 --> 00:18:09.400 is unique because there's only two parties 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:11.230 involved, sharing water resources that 00:18:11.230 --> 00:18:12.820 are not physically common. 00:18:12.820 --> 00:18:15.010 The water networks are defined through several water 00:18:15.010 --> 00:18:18.890 agreements where water is being traded rather than shared. 00:18:18.890 --> 00:18:21.550 However, Johor and Singapore still mutually benefit 00:18:21.550 --> 00:18:23.410 from the terms of the existing agreements, 00:18:23.410 --> 00:18:26.290 and they have acknowledged that publicly. 00:18:26.290 --> 00:18:28.990 The water diplomacy framework acknowledges the complexity 00:18:28.990 --> 00:18:31.990 of managing competition, feedback, and interconnection 00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:35.050 between the natural and societal domains in the context 00:18:35.050 --> 00:18:36.350 of the political domain. 00:18:36.350 --> 00:18:38.330 So that is absolutely true. 00:18:38.330 --> 00:18:41.630 In this circumstance, there were ongoing societal tensions 00:18:41.630 --> 00:18:44.180 between Singaporean and Malaysian communities 00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:47.900 at every level over a lot of issues, not just water. 00:18:50.450 --> 00:18:53.150 And then, Johor has been experiencing increasing water 00:18:53.150 --> 00:18:56.330 problems in the natural domain related to water quantity 00:18:56.330 --> 00:19:00.840 as well as quality, which threatens both stakeholders. 00:19:00.840 --> 00:19:03.410 And, finally, because the media was so involved 00:19:03.410 --> 00:19:05.660 in covering the water negotiations, 00:19:05.660 --> 00:19:07.430 the group of stakeholders with opinions 00:19:07.430 --> 00:19:09.530 is actually much larger than the officials 00:19:09.530 --> 00:19:12.470 that are involved in the signing of the agreements. 00:19:12.470 --> 00:19:16.700 And, as a result, there's kind of a negative air 00:19:16.700 --> 00:19:21.830 around the agreements and signing a new agreement. 00:19:21.830 --> 00:19:24.590 So something that I recognized immediately 00:19:24.590 --> 00:19:28.730 is that there would need to be trust 00:19:28.730 --> 00:19:30.050 built between the stakeholders. 00:19:30.050 --> 00:19:31.925 So the first issue that needs to be addressed 00:19:31.925 --> 00:19:34.460 is how to build this trust and enhance cooperation 00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:38.060 between the different stakeholders, mainly 00:19:38.060 --> 00:19:39.830 state government officials. 00:19:39.830 --> 00:19:42.080 And, before negotiations can make progress, 00:19:42.080 --> 00:19:43.460 stakeholders from both sides will 00:19:43.460 --> 00:19:45.680 need to recognize and accept the value of being 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:47.508 cooperative rather than competitive, 00:19:47.508 --> 00:19:49.800 which is something we talked a lot about in this class. 00:19:49.800 --> 00:19:52.760 So one of the stickiest points in the current negotiations 00:19:52.760 --> 00:19:55.130 is the water pricing for the raw water 00:19:55.130 --> 00:19:58.160 bought by Singapore and the treated water bought by Johor. 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:01.910 However, both Singapore and Johor 00:20:01.910 --> 00:20:04.740 have increasing concerns about their water security. 00:20:04.740 --> 00:20:07.220 So I think it'd be really beneficial to shift 00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:09.680 the conversations away from competitive water 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.200 pricing that's motivated by self-interest 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:14.930 and start by discussing cooperative strategies 00:20:14.930 --> 00:20:16.760 for making sure that both parties will have 00:20:16.760 --> 00:20:19.430 enough water of the right quality, 00:20:19.430 --> 00:20:21.980 because the opportunities for mutual gains 00:20:21.980 --> 00:20:26.060 would then be more prioritized, which is what, obviously, they 00:20:26.060 --> 00:20:27.050 both need. 00:20:27.050 --> 00:20:33.380 So I guess I will note that there are ongoing negotiations 00:20:33.380 --> 00:20:36.410 and conversations and meetings between Singapore 00:20:36.410 --> 00:20:37.970 and Malaysian officials. 00:20:37.970 --> 00:20:41.600 So I think things that have been highlighted is they have 00:20:41.600 --> 00:20:44.360 an annual leaders' retreat, which is literally just 00:20:44.360 --> 00:20:46.790 a retreat for their leaders to meet, 00:20:46.790 --> 00:20:51.950 joint ministerial committee meetings that happen on monthly 00:20:51.950 --> 00:20:56.510 and yearly basis, the ministers of both countries visit 00:20:56.510 --> 00:21:00.110 the other country to improve relations, 00:21:00.110 --> 00:21:03.800 and then they've recently created the Malaysia-Singapore 00:21:03.800 --> 00:21:06.480 Joint Committee on the Environment, 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:10.640 which is also basically for this kind of-- 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:14.070 to increase the relations in these topics. 00:21:14.070 --> 00:21:16.010 So there's starting to be progress, 00:21:16.010 --> 00:21:18.560 but it's really not being reflected 00:21:18.560 --> 00:21:23.387 in any legislative progress, in my opinion. 00:21:23.387 --> 00:21:25.970 This is something that I thought was interesting to point out. 00:21:25.970 --> 00:21:31.250 So most partisan media articles from both sides 00:21:31.250 --> 00:21:33.930 reflect slightly different versions of the same story. 00:21:33.930 --> 00:21:36.170 So Malaysian media articles would 00:21:36.170 --> 00:21:39.290 say that the current agreements only benefit 00:21:39.290 --> 00:21:40.820 Singaporean stakeholders. 00:21:40.820 --> 00:21:44.660 Johor is experiencing increasing incidents of water scarcity. 00:21:44.660 --> 00:21:46.730 And Singapore just keeps taking the amount 00:21:46.730 --> 00:21:50.060 that it's always agreed upon despite the circumstances 00:21:50.060 --> 00:21:51.170 changing. 00:21:51.170 --> 00:21:53.690 The water pricing has not been updated. 00:21:53.690 --> 00:21:57.350 And, as a result, Singapore is getting this raw water at way 00:21:57.350 --> 00:22:00.680 below the price that they should be buying it at. 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:03.260 And then, conservative Singaporean media outlets 00:22:03.260 --> 00:22:05.090 would frame the issue quite differently. 00:22:05.090 --> 00:22:06.710 But it's ultimately the same story, 00:22:06.710 --> 00:22:08.420 where Singapore has been actively trying 00:22:08.420 --> 00:22:11.180 to reduce its reliance on water from Johor 00:22:11.180 --> 00:22:14.900 while continuously granting requests from Johor for more 00:22:14.900 --> 00:22:17.480 treated water than agreed upon in the agreements 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:19.970 at the same discounted rates. 00:22:19.970 --> 00:22:22.580 This is just to maintain goodwill between the two 00:22:22.580 --> 00:22:23.960 parties. 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.900 And Singapore has prioritized enhancing their water security 00:22:26.900 --> 00:22:28.700 by extending the water agreements. 00:22:28.700 --> 00:22:32.030 However, if Johor wants to increase 00:22:32.030 --> 00:22:33.740 the price of raw water, Singapore 00:22:33.740 --> 00:22:37.220 would have to increase the price of treated water. 00:22:37.220 --> 00:22:42.920 So this slide is basically to go over 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:46.100 how both sides, if you look at it objectively, 00:22:46.100 --> 00:22:49.220 could be gaining from this relationship. 00:22:49.220 --> 00:22:50.430 I chose this image. 00:22:50.430 --> 00:22:53.360 This is a screenshot from the Aqueduct Water Risk Atlas tool 00:22:53.360 --> 00:22:55.470 that I mentioned before. 00:22:55.470 --> 00:22:58.040 This is their projection for water risk in Singapore 00:22:58.040 --> 00:23:01.430 and Johor in 2040 if things continue, quote, 00:23:01.430 --> 00:23:02.935 "business as usual." 00:23:02.935 --> 00:23:04.310 So, as you can tell, Singapore is 00:23:04.310 --> 00:23:06.110 classified as extremely high risk, 00:23:06.110 --> 00:23:08.250 and Johor is medium to high risk. 00:23:08.250 --> 00:23:11.480 So, for reference, currently, if you click to baseline, 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:13.560 both are classified as low risk. 00:23:13.560 --> 00:23:19.220 So this is something where their water risk characteristics are 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:23.750 increasing due to changes in climate change, drought, 00:23:23.750 --> 00:23:25.590 and pollution. 00:23:25.590 --> 00:23:30.260 So, currently, Singapore and Johor rely on each other 00:23:30.260 --> 00:23:32.300 to meet their water demands. 00:23:32.300 --> 00:23:35.110 They both care about the decreasing water quality 00:23:35.110 --> 00:23:38.380 in Malaysia since it jeopardizes both water security 00:23:38.380 --> 00:23:40.780 of Singapore and Malaysia. 00:23:40.780 --> 00:23:44.350 I recognize that Singapore has much more and better experience 00:23:44.350 --> 00:23:47.110 in launching water conservation campaigns 00:23:47.110 --> 00:23:49.863 as well as investing in alternative water supplies. 00:23:49.863 --> 00:23:51.280 They have one of the most advanced 00:23:51.280 --> 00:23:56.230 systems in the world for desalination and water reuse, 00:23:56.230 --> 00:24:00.318 as well as very strict water quality tactics 00:24:00.318 --> 00:24:02.360 because they don't want to waste their own water. 00:24:02.360 --> 00:24:04.510 So I think that's one opportunity where 00:24:04.510 --> 00:24:08.200 both nations could benefit if Singapore could 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:12.040 give some of their experience and help improve 00:24:12.040 --> 00:24:14.890 the situation in Malaysia. 00:24:14.890 --> 00:24:17.350 Secondly, both parties are unsure of the long-term effects 00:24:17.350 --> 00:24:20.830 of climate change and drought on their water security. 00:24:20.830 --> 00:24:24.370 So they both want to be resilient and prepared to adapt 00:24:24.370 --> 00:24:27.100 to changing water circumstances. 00:24:27.100 --> 00:24:30.460 The water prices for both the raw water and the treated water 00:24:30.460 --> 00:24:34.280 are absolutely outdated and should be updated. 00:24:34.280 --> 00:24:38.050 However, that should not be the only thing included 00:24:38.050 --> 00:24:41.350 in the conversation, because that is currently only 00:24:41.350 --> 00:24:44.080 representing self-interest. 00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:46.780 Singapore benefits from Johor's water supply 00:24:46.780 --> 00:24:49.390 to support its economic growth. 00:24:49.390 --> 00:24:51.370 It needs the water. 00:24:51.370 --> 00:24:55.630 And, while they say that they will be independent by 2061, 00:24:55.630 --> 00:24:57.700 that has not been proven. 00:24:57.700 --> 00:25:00.550 And I think, furthermore, an ongoing water relationship 00:25:00.550 --> 00:25:03.520 for Singapore is convenient because Singapore has already 00:25:03.520 --> 00:25:05.770 made long-term infrastructure investments 00:25:05.770 --> 00:25:09.400 and already have good existing relationships with the water 00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:10.610 representatives there. 00:25:10.610 --> 00:25:14.950 So, rather than trying to find a different importing place 00:25:14.950 --> 00:25:16.660 to get water from, it makes sense 00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:19.750 that Singapore would want to stick with Malaysia. 00:25:19.750 --> 00:25:21.550 And, finally, Malaysia would benefit 00:25:21.550 --> 00:25:24.370 because they need the increased supply of treated water, 00:25:24.370 --> 00:25:27.610 and they need assistance stimulating progress 00:25:27.610 --> 00:25:30.070 in increasing their supply long-term, 00:25:30.070 --> 00:25:33.820 since they have no progress in water treatment 00:25:33.820 --> 00:25:38.260 development, water conservation development, or water pollution 00:25:38.260 --> 00:25:40.840 regulation. 00:25:40.840 --> 00:25:45.460 So, finally, a couple of other ways that the water diplomacy 00:25:45.460 --> 00:25:49.000 framework could be utilized include utilizing 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:50.470 an impartial moderator. 00:25:50.470 --> 00:25:55.270 So it was really successful when they lodged the document 00:25:55.270 --> 00:25:58.690 with the UN after they split politically 00:25:58.690 --> 00:26:02.710 to ensure that Malaysia would not renege on their agreement. 00:26:02.710 --> 00:26:05.380 And I'm really confused why they haven't done that since. 00:26:05.380 --> 00:26:09.250 It seems like incorporating some more impartial stakeholders 00:26:09.250 --> 00:26:11.920 could really help promote progress. 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.890 And, secondly, I think it'd be interesting 00:26:14.890 --> 00:26:17.710 if they would start conversations 00:26:17.710 --> 00:26:20.530 about signing a new agreement, unrelated to the water 00:26:20.530 --> 00:26:24.850 supply but kind of more toward a joint agreement, 00:26:24.850 --> 00:26:28.610 trying to become more resilient in the face of climate change. 00:26:28.610 --> 00:26:30.830 This part of the world is extremely vulnerable. 00:26:30.830 --> 00:26:33.220 And if Singapore, Malaysia and some 00:26:33.220 --> 00:26:37.630 of these other southeastern Asian countries and states 00:26:37.630 --> 00:26:42.250 join together in their efforts to develop new technology 00:26:42.250 --> 00:26:47.950 and get better information, it would really benefit them all. 00:26:47.950 --> 00:26:50.890 So, yeah, these are the key takeaways. 00:26:50.890 --> 00:26:54.610 But I think, just for the sake of time, 00:26:54.610 --> 00:26:58.510 it's pretty clear that Singapore and Malaysia already 00:26:58.510 --> 00:27:01.580 recognize that their agreements are mutually beneficial. 00:27:01.580 --> 00:27:07.610 However, they have not been able to reach further agreements, 00:27:07.610 --> 00:27:11.680 which is threatening both the water security of both, 00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:16.930 and ultimately, preventing progress and security. 00:27:25.950 --> 00:27:28.480 DR. GAIN: Thank you, Flora, for the nice presentation. 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:30.780 It's really wonderful. 00:27:30.780 --> 00:27:38.125 So yeah, is there any feedback for Flora, Husnain or Cassiano? 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:44.260 AUDIENCE: Well, well done for your wonderful presentation. 00:27:44.260 --> 00:27:48.850 As this topic was new for you, you have done a very great job. 00:27:48.850 --> 00:27:53.200 Just first of all, let me give you a small comment. 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:57.970 As you mentioned a prospect for desalination, 00:27:57.970 --> 00:28:00.400 my view would be that desalination is expensive 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:04.270 and its production is energy-intensive and involves 00:28:04.270 --> 00:28:05.062 carbon emissions. 00:28:05.062 --> 00:28:06.520 In the long run, Malaysia might not 00:28:06.520 --> 00:28:11.440 be able to operate and maintain it as well. 00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:13.390 As you mentioned in the case study 00:28:13.390 --> 00:28:16.750 that Malaysia has had some availability of fresh water 00:28:16.750 --> 00:28:20.440 and receives ample rainfall, it would be better for Singapore 00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:23.740 to cooperate and invest in water infrastructure, 00:28:23.740 --> 00:28:25.810 enhancing Malaysia's storage capacity, which, 00:28:25.810 --> 00:28:29.800 in turn, would ensure long-term water security for Singapore. 00:28:29.800 --> 00:28:32.890 And Malaysia could, in turn, offer increased water quality 00:28:32.890 --> 00:28:33.550 to Singapore. 00:28:33.550 --> 00:28:37.690 This could be a practical mutual gains approach in respect 00:28:37.690 --> 00:28:40.360 to the water diplomacy framework. 00:28:40.360 --> 00:28:42.670 And, secondly, the question would 00:28:42.670 --> 00:28:46.510 be that what is the public sentiment in Malaysia 00:28:46.510 --> 00:28:48.473 given their own water scarcity situation? 00:28:48.473 --> 00:28:50.140 You mentioned that some states receive-- 00:28:50.140 --> 00:28:52.270 are water scarce. 00:28:52.270 --> 00:28:56.230 And you mentioned that, as per the treaty, 00:28:56.230 --> 00:28:59.230 water flows freely to Singapore. 00:28:59.230 --> 00:29:02.352 But some states within Malaysia face water scarcity. 00:29:02.352 --> 00:29:04.810 So what is the public sentiment within Malaysia about that? 00:29:07.360 --> 00:29:09.250 FLORA KLISE: I can respond to that. 00:29:09.250 --> 00:29:14.360 Yeah, so definitely, the public response is pretty negative. 00:29:14.360 --> 00:29:17.830 I think it's negative in every regard. 00:29:17.830 --> 00:29:21.160 It's like we want to sell the water to Singapore, 00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:23.020 but they need to pay us way more. 00:29:23.020 --> 00:29:25.900 We want to sell it to them, but they're not paying enough. 00:29:25.900 --> 00:29:29.380 And then, it's also like, why are they taking our water when 00:29:29.380 --> 00:29:31.160 we don't have enough water? 00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:33.020 That's not fair either. 00:29:33.020 --> 00:29:36.610 So I think part of that is unavoidable just 00:29:36.610 --> 00:29:40.120 because, yes, Singapore also needs the water, 00:29:40.120 --> 00:29:42.010 and it's confusing. 00:29:42.010 --> 00:29:46.150 But I think the public sentiment is tainted 00:29:46.150 --> 00:29:52.060 by political sentiment that's just Malaysians don't like 00:29:52.060 --> 00:29:58.810 Singaporean as a stereotype but then further aggravated 00:29:58.810 --> 00:30:03.580 by this increased water scarcity caused by these droughts 00:30:03.580 --> 00:30:05.920 and lack of rain capture. 00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:10.870 So yeah, it definitely is negative and not 00:30:10.870 --> 00:30:12.130 very controlled. 00:30:12.130 --> 00:30:14.380 The information shared in Malaysia 00:30:14.380 --> 00:30:17.380 is not the same information shared in Singapore. 00:30:17.380 --> 00:30:20.170 Media is extremely regulated in both countries 00:30:20.170 --> 00:30:21.700 and is highly partisan. 00:30:21.700 --> 00:30:25.360 So, as a result, it's really hard to change public opinion. 00:30:25.360 --> 00:30:27.910 But, from what I understand, the public 00:30:27.910 --> 00:30:32.085 doesn't have much control over what happens, so. 00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.646 AUDIENCE: And just one more thing. 00:30:37.646 --> 00:30:41.660 You know, as you mentioned, that the treaty expires in 2061. 00:30:41.660 --> 00:30:45.290 And it is still four decades until the existing treaty 00:30:45.290 --> 00:30:46.760 is going to expire. 00:30:46.760 --> 00:30:52.550 And some clarity is required why negotiations 00:30:52.550 --> 00:30:55.790 are needed to extend-- 00:30:55.790 --> 00:30:58.790 why negotiations have already started as of now because it 00:30:58.790 --> 00:31:00.950 is still four decades remaining. 00:31:00.950 --> 00:31:03.920 Or the two countries are trying to formalize a new treaty 00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.790 before 2061 in order to get it for existing water scarcity 00:31:07.790 --> 00:31:09.920 and water quality issues. 00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:12.860 FLORA KLISE: Yeah, so basically, from their point of view, 00:31:12.860 --> 00:31:17.240 40 years is not long at all. 00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:19.730 In the early 2000s, they were trying 00:31:19.730 --> 00:31:22.610 to negotiate a treaty that would last for 100 years, 00:31:22.610 --> 00:31:27.125 so extend it from 2061 to more like 3001. 00:31:27.125 --> 00:31:29.780 It sounds so weird to say. 00:31:29.780 --> 00:31:32.330 But, yeah, they were unable to reach one. 00:31:32.330 --> 00:31:35.120 But, basically, especially for Singapore, 00:31:35.120 --> 00:31:37.790 since this is more of an issue of water security 00:31:37.790 --> 00:31:41.780 in the next 40 years, if, in 2061, 00:31:41.780 --> 00:31:45.500 they aren't able to import water from Malaysia anymore, 00:31:45.500 --> 00:31:49.400 and they have not succeeded in increasing their water reuse 00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:52.760 and water desalination, basically, Singapore 00:31:52.760 --> 00:31:54.890 will no longer be able to supply water 00:31:54.890 --> 00:32:00.590 to run its municipal and industrial water supply. 00:32:00.590 --> 00:32:05.900 So that, I guess, is the threat of water security. 00:32:05.900 --> 00:32:11.450 And some parties would even say, what would they do? 00:32:11.450 --> 00:32:14.690 Would they try to fight Malaysia, 00:32:14.690 --> 00:32:16.580 some kind of water war? 00:32:16.580 --> 00:32:17.750 Most people say no. 00:32:17.750 --> 00:32:20.810 But that's basically why it's so urgent, why they don't want 00:32:20.810 --> 00:32:24.350 to wait until 10 years before, because, already, negotiations 00:32:24.350 --> 00:32:27.320 have been going on for 30 years, and they 00:32:27.320 --> 00:32:29.030 haven't reached any agreement. 00:32:32.850 --> 00:32:35.310 Thank you. 00:32:35.310 --> 00:32:37.290 AUDIENCE: Wonderful presentation, Flora. 00:32:37.290 --> 00:32:39.030 Every time I have a question in my mind, 00:32:39.030 --> 00:32:41.115 your next slide answered my question. 00:32:41.115 --> 00:32:44.500 It was very good. 00:32:44.500 --> 00:32:48.100 Flora, do you think that Indonesia could be considered 00:32:48.100 --> 00:32:49.540 a partner for Singapore? 00:32:52.130 --> 00:32:55.240 FLORA KLISE: Well, it seems like they'll 00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:57.250 run into the same issues that they're 00:32:57.250 --> 00:33:00.730 running into with Malaysia but having a little bit 00:33:00.730 --> 00:33:02.650 less bad blood. 00:33:02.650 --> 00:33:05.470 And it's extremely less convenient 00:33:05.470 --> 00:33:09.340 since, already, Singapore has invested so much 00:33:09.340 --> 00:33:12.610 in the Malaysian water resources that, if they were going 00:33:12.610 --> 00:33:14.290 to do the same thing in Indonesia, 00:33:14.290 --> 00:33:16.390 it would be like starting from scratch 00:33:16.390 --> 00:33:20.140 and also probably ruin their relationship with Malaysia, 00:33:20.140 --> 00:33:23.840 decrease their chances of renewing the water agreements. 00:33:23.840 --> 00:33:26.650 So I think, in that regard, it's been quite hard. 00:33:26.650 --> 00:33:29.500 Also, the main thing holding up any negotiations 00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:32.320 is that Indonesia has had a lot of political turmoil 00:33:32.320 --> 00:33:33.280 internally. 00:33:33.280 --> 00:33:35.950 So just the lack of governance has 00:33:35.950 --> 00:33:39.615 prevented real conversations from happening. 00:33:39.615 --> 00:33:40.240 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:45.880 Flora, if you know more about this innovation, 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:50.440 can you talk about the four taps and the NEWater solutions? 00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:51.190 FLORA KLISE: Yeah. 00:33:51.190 --> 00:33:54.640 So Singapore has one of the most developed-- 00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:56.890 I mean, Larry and Animesh can stop me 00:33:56.890 --> 00:34:01.240 if I'm just saying wrong things-- but a very advanced 00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:04.040 water recycling program. 00:34:04.040 --> 00:34:07.270 So NEWater is what they're calling it. 00:34:07.270 --> 00:34:09.364 I have a manager from my internship 00:34:09.364 --> 00:34:10.989 that lives in Singapore, and she always 00:34:10.989 --> 00:34:13.900 laughs at me when she says, like, in your country, 00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:18.340 you call reclaimed water toilet to tap. 00:34:18.340 --> 00:34:20.050 And she's like, that sounds gross. 00:34:20.050 --> 00:34:22.150 No wonder no one likes it. 00:34:22.150 --> 00:34:24.820 She's like, in Singapore, we call it NEWater. 00:34:24.820 --> 00:34:26.139 Everyone wants new water. 00:34:26.139 --> 00:34:29.650 NEWater sounds great and cool and innovative. 00:34:29.650 --> 00:34:32.110 She's like, toilet to tap? 00:34:32.110 --> 00:34:35.500 That's bad advertising. 00:34:35.500 --> 00:34:37.870 So yeah, basically, they've really 00:34:37.870 --> 00:34:40.880 worked on increasing their reclaimed water supply. 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:42.580 They have very advanced technology 00:34:42.580 --> 00:34:45.370 to do water reuse, which is a technology that's not 00:34:45.370 --> 00:34:47.110 utilized very much in the US. 00:34:47.110 --> 00:34:49.300 There's not as much technology development 00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:53.290 in the US because of this hesitancy from the public 00:34:53.290 --> 00:34:56.060 and industry to adopt it. 00:34:56.060 --> 00:34:58.750 But that is what they're mainly relying 00:34:58.750 --> 00:35:02.440 on where, instead of getting rid of wastewater, 00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:06.700 you'd be able to recycle it one or two times to use it again, 00:35:06.700 --> 00:35:08.110 which obviously makes sense. 00:35:08.110 --> 00:35:12.430 And then, seawater desalination is their other big technology 00:35:12.430 --> 00:35:17.320 push for their four taps, other than the rainfall capture, 00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:22.270 since that is basically just exhausted. 00:35:22.270 --> 00:35:25.120 They don't have any more land to expand into. 00:35:25.120 --> 00:35:29.530 So yeah, I think Husnain raised a good point. 00:35:29.530 --> 00:35:31.280 Desalination is expensive. 00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:34.330 It currently relies on carbon fuel 00:35:34.330 --> 00:35:38.500 and will wear out, potentially, if it's not 00:35:38.500 --> 00:35:39.670 maintained properly. 00:35:39.670 --> 00:35:42.682 So yeah, I think that's interesting. 00:35:42.682 --> 00:35:44.140 I haven't really read any articles. 00:35:44.140 --> 00:35:46.180 Right now, Singapore is just really in the push 00:35:46.180 --> 00:35:49.870 to increase the amount of water that they are obtaining 00:35:49.870 --> 00:35:52.270 from non-Malaysian sources 00:35:52.270 --> 00:35:54.050 AUDIENCE: Thank you very much, Flora. 00:35:54.050 --> 00:35:55.360 Congratulations again. 00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:56.320 FLORA KLISE: Thanks. 00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:59.050 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I just want to annotate the question 00:35:59.050 --> 00:36:01.900 of desal a little bit. 00:36:01.900 --> 00:36:06.970 Desalination now is completely solar-powered. 00:36:06.970 --> 00:36:14.590 And the Israelis have created very advanced desalination 00:36:14.590 --> 00:36:17.830 technologies, again, for their own uses. 00:36:17.830 --> 00:36:23.230 Israel is going to be almost 85% desal in the next decade, 00:36:23.230 --> 00:36:24.520 even though they have water. 00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:28.570 They have aquifers. 00:36:28.570 --> 00:36:31.000 But they're not going to hold out forever. 00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:36.220 And Israel has developed new technologies 00:36:36.220 --> 00:36:43.750 for separating the brine from the fresh water. 00:36:43.750 --> 00:36:47.920 Kuwait is 95% desal. 00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:51.970 Everything in the country, 95% of the water is in desal. 00:36:51.970 --> 00:36:58.210 So yes, it was true that desal was mostly fossil fuel-driven. 00:36:58.210 --> 00:37:03.370 It isn't-- no one planning a future desal facility of large 00:37:03.370 --> 00:37:08.890 scale would think, unless they were an oil-generating country 00:37:08.890 --> 00:37:11.890 and had so much extra oil they didn't know what else to do, 00:37:11.890 --> 00:37:15.310 but that isn't the case in Singapore. 00:37:15.310 --> 00:37:18.910 I personally think that Singapore will have no problem 00:37:18.910 --> 00:37:21.370 through recycling. 00:37:21.370 --> 00:37:24.190 People have to understand that Malaysia and Singapore think 00:37:24.190 --> 00:37:27.390 of themselves as developed countries. 00:37:27.390 --> 00:37:29.430 They do not think of themselves as developing. 00:37:29.430 --> 00:37:31.200 They have the most advanced technology. 00:37:31.200 --> 00:37:34.350 They have the most advanced universities. 00:37:34.350 --> 00:37:38.910 Singapore has used advanced technology 00:37:38.910 --> 00:37:40.990 on just about everything. 00:37:40.990 --> 00:37:44.850 And, because it is a small island nation, 00:37:44.850 --> 00:37:49.380 it has the limitations, as was nicely pointed out, 00:37:49.380 --> 00:37:52.170 of scale in terms of land. 00:37:52.170 --> 00:37:55.230 But it's going to be able to claim 00:37:55.230 --> 00:37:59.760 existing space at its edges and expand development 00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:03.060 on the water. 00:38:03.060 --> 00:38:08.430 And my sense is that it's not crazy to think 00:38:08.430 --> 00:38:10.650 that Singapore, through desal-- 00:38:10.650 --> 00:38:14.280 because it's got all of this area on the ocean-- 00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:16.740 and water recycling, which is the most 00:38:16.740 --> 00:38:20.070 advanced in the world for municipal systems, 00:38:20.070 --> 00:38:23.400 and a space that can't grow in terms 00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:27.780 of large additional population, and it can't increase density 00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:30.360 because it's already as high as Manhattan. 00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:34.920 So my sense is that they've made some smart choices. 00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:37.890 And I think they will take advantage of water 00:38:37.890 --> 00:38:42.520 from Malaysia when they need it as they need it. 00:38:42.520 --> 00:38:46.080 The other thing that has to be noted 00:38:46.080 --> 00:38:51.690 is that Johor is a state in Malaysia, 00:38:51.690 --> 00:38:56.260 but Malaysia has two parts. 00:38:56.260 --> 00:39:01.870 The peninsula part that you talked about is in one place. 00:39:01.870 --> 00:39:06.400 And the other two states, it's like Hawaii and Alaska 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:07.780 for Americans. 00:39:07.780 --> 00:39:12.160 The other two states are on top of Borneo. 00:39:12.160 --> 00:39:14.260 They're on top of another country 00:39:14.260 --> 00:39:18.880 as far away as Hawaii is from San Francisco. 00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:21.940 And those two states are amongst the most important 00:39:21.940 --> 00:39:24.130 income-generating states because that's where 00:39:24.130 --> 00:39:26.490 all the natural resources are. 00:39:26.490 --> 00:39:31.680 And so the water policy in Malaysia 00:39:31.680 --> 00:39:36.560 doesn't really focus on the two states 00:39:36.560 --> 00:39:41.540 that are separate, because there's very few people there-- 00:39:41.540 --> 00:39:44.550 I mean comparatively-- and plenty of water. 00:39:44.550 --> 00:39:49.070 So the water issues are in the peninsula of Malaysia. 00:39:49.070 --> 00:39:55.730 And my sense is that there's plenty of water. 00:39:55.730 --> 00:39:58.490 I'm a little less negative, I think, Flora, 00:39:58.490 --> 00:40:02.240 than you are about their pollution improvements 00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:03.620 over the last decade. 00:40:07.070 --> 00:40:11.480 In all of their cities where the rivers run through the city, 00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:14.300 they got the idea from San Antonio. 00:40:14.300 --> 00:40:16.730 Instead of covering over the river 00:40:16.730 --> 00:40:21.080 and just dumping everything in it, they uncovered the river 00:40:21.080 --> 00:40:24.620 and they made it an attraction of the city, which 00:40:24.620 --> 00:40:27.800 meant they had to do the pollution cleanup. 00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:29.990 And the level of pollution cleanup-- 00:40:29.990 --> 00:40:32.600 I've been working in Malaysia for a decade. 00:40:32.600 --> 00:40:35.900 And, even from year one to year seven, 00:40:35.900 --> 00:40:39.140 the difference in pollution levels in rivers 00:40:39.140 --> 00:40:41.060 is really dramatic. 00:40:41.060 --> 00:40:44.850 And the coordination, which I understand-- 00:40:44.850 --> 00:40:48.590 when you look and do research on this, 00:40:48.590 --> 00:40:51.260 the coordination between the federal level and the state 00:40:51.260 --> 00:40:57.230 levels is dramatically enhanced in the last five years. 00:40:57.230 --> 00:41:01.070 Now, they had this crazy change of governments. 00:41:01.070 --> 00:41:07.010 And now, they're back to a normal kind of government 00:41:07.010 --> 00:41:10.500 that has qualified people in senior positions. 00:41:10.500 --> 00:41:12.140 There was a period a few years ago, 00:41:12.140 --> 00:41:15.020 where the transition happened, where the people running 00:41:15.020 --> 00:41:17.690 stuff were political appointees with zero 00:41:17.690 --> 00:41:20.480 professional background and capabilities. 00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:22.470 But now things are back in order. 00:41:22.470 --> 00:41:26.495 So I think there's a chance of the negotiations. 00:41:26.495 --> 00:41:28.760 Since a friend of mine is the head of the commission 00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:31.220 and will be doing the negotiations, 00:41:31.220 --> 00:41:34.220 I think there's a chance that they 00:41:34.220 --> 00:41:41.030 will find all of these mutual benefits that you point out. 00:41:41.030 --> 00:41:44.120 Johor, it has all these facilities 00:41:44.120 --> 00:41:45.530 being built by Singapore. 00:41:45.530 --> 00:41:47.390 The national government is saving the money, 00:41:47.390 --> 00:41:49.310 and Johor is saving the money. 00:41:49.310 --> 00:41:54.410 And, if Singapore is willing to build all these facilities, 00:41:54.410 --> 00:41:58.640 and if Singapore continues to increase its own water 00:41:58.640 --> 00:42:03.350 resources, it won't be so scary about its long-term need 00:42:03.350 --> 00:42:08.300 for all of Johor's water. 00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:10.430 Two other things that have happened maybe 00:42:10.430 --> 00:42:15.770 since the material you were looking at was published. 00:42:15.770 --> 00:42:19.640 One is that a Chinese developer has 00:42:19.640 --> 00:42:25.970 built a new city floating in the Straits of Johor right 00:42:25.970 --> 00:42:28.415 between Johor-- 00:42:28.415 --> 00:42:31.740 and Malaysia and Singapore. 00:42:31.740 --> 00:42:34.980 And it's Malaysian. 00:42:34.980 --> 00:42:39.630 So Singapore is quite distressed about it, especially because-- 00:42:39.630 --> 00:42:41.070 and this is the other thing. 00:42:41.070 --> 00:42:43.740 You had it on the slide, but you need to explain it. 00:42:46.590 --> 00:42:54.360 Malaysia is a democracy, but it also is a monarchy. 00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:56.580 And so we're used to thinking about how 00:42:56.580 --> 00:42:58.680 the British government operates. 00:42:58.680 --> 00:43:02.790 Well, the sultans-- there are six sultans, six sultanates, 00:43:02.790 --> 00:43:04.230 within Malaysia. 00:43:04.230 --> 00:43:07.470 And, each year, one of them is the sultan of sultans. 00:43:07.470 --> 00:43:11.580 And the sultanate is in the Constitution 00:43:11.580 --> 00:43:15.510 and has a variety of things that it controls. 00:43:15.510 --> 00:43:21.750 And the sultan of Johor is a player in the conversation, 00:43:21.750 --> 00:43:24.210 even though it's country to country, 00:43:24.210 --> 00:43:30.810 because the sultan has real say within what Malaysia does. 00:43:30.810 --> 00:43:34.050 Malaysia is a Muslim country, even 00:43:34.050 --> 00:43:39.870 though Chinese and Indian populations are growing. 00:43:39.870 --> 00:43:42.240 It's basically a Muslim country. 00:43:42.240 --> 00:43:48.010 And all of the original settlers came from Indonesia. 00:43:48.010 --> 00:43:51.190 And so there are implicit connections to Indonesia. 00:43:51.190 --> 00:43:53.500 But Indonesia is a long way away. 00:43:53.500 --> 00:43:55.200 How are you going to get water? 00:43:55.200 --> 00:43:59.550 You're not going to have a pipe from Indonesia to Johor. 00:43:59.550 --> 00:44:01.160 That's nuts. 00:44:01.160 --> 00:44:05.160 So my sense is that you're exactly on target, 00:44:05.160 --> 00:44:10.620 that they need to do something about these negotiations 00:44:10.620 --> 00:44:11.820 quickly. 00:44:11.820 --> 00:44:14.850 And there are plenty of joint gains to be had. 00:44:14.850 --> 00:44:17.250 But the negotiation will include Johor, 00:44:17.250 --> 00:44:18.990 even though it's a state. 00:44:18.990 --> 00:44:21.690 I think they ought to encourage the involvement of Malacca, 00:44:21.690 --> 00:44:24.810 which is another state which isn't 00:44:24.810 --> 00:44:29.880 a sultanate in the same way and would benefit 00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:33.400 by being part of the deal. 00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:48.150 And I think we should expect that solar-powered desal will 00:44:48.150 --> 00:44:54.660 be very important in producing maybe 40% or 50% of everything 00:44:54.660 --> 00:45:02.210 that they need into the future and that recycling 00:45:02.210 --> 00:45:08.450 and this huge construction of all of these reservoirs-- 00:45:08.450 --> 00:45:09.230 it's amazing. 00:45:09.230 --> 00:45:13.490 A tiny little island built 11 big reservoirs 00:45:13.490 --> 00:45:16.670 to capture rainwater because they saw this problem coming. 00:45:16.670 --> 00:45:20.480 So they're not in terrible shape. 00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:22.820 Malaysia is not in terrible shape. 00:45:22.820 --> 00:45:24.750 There are advantages to be had. 00:45:24.750 --> 00:45:28.020 Yes, the pricing is going to have to change. 00:45:28.020 --> 00:45:32.540 But there's so much shared interest in other things 00:45:32.540 --> 00:45:36.350 that the last thing I would expect is a water war. 00:45:36.350 --> 00:45:37.820 They don't have an army. 00:45:37.820 --> 00:45:41.690 So that would make a difference. 00:45:41.690 --> 00:45:45.770 Malaysia does, but my sense is that these two 00:45:45.770 --> 00:45:51.050 nations and Johor will be able to figure this out. 00:45:51.050 --> 00:45:54.770 But you do a beautiful job of describing 00:45:54.770 --> 00:46:00.050 the history of identifying why these negotiations are 00:46:00.050 --> 00:46:01.880 important. 00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:06.410 The older negotiations were in a different time, 00:46:06.410 --> 00:46:13.460 before you had such powerful economic countries. 00:46:13.460 --> 00:46:15.170 These were developing countries. 00:46:15.170 --> 00:46:19.890 Now they are developed nations with lots of money. 00:46:19.890 --> 00:46:23.140 And they should be able to deal with each other. 00:46:23.140 --> 00:46:26.460 So I think your emphasis is just right that. 00:46:26.460 --> 00:46:28.300 The only two things I would point out, 00:46:28.300 --> 00:46:31.770 which I think the threat of doing something with Indonesia 00:46:31.770 --> 00:46:37.020 is nuts just because of distance and because Indonesia 00:46:37.020 --> 00:46:41.620 has its own problems to worry about. 00:46:41.620 --> 00:46:48.080 And I think-- and I think this floating city, Forest City-- 00:46:48.080 --> 00:46:51.050 that's what they called it, Forest City-- 00:46:51.050 --> 00:46:56.060 700,000 people on floating platforms 00:46:56.060 --> 00:46:59.480 in wetland, in an internationally protected 00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:00.260 wetland. 00:47:00.260 --> 00:47:02.250 It's a disaster. 00:47:02.250 --> 00:47:07.610 And so that's what led to the new joint effort on environment 00:47:07.610 --> 00:47:10.100 and sustainability, which is Malaysia never should 00:47:10.100 --> 00:47:11.480 have allowed it to happen. 00:47:11.480 --> 00:47:15.560 But the national government defers on land use issues 00:47:15.560 --> 00:47:18.080 to the state. 00:47:18.080 --> 00:47:22.250 And the sultan of Johor is one of the major investors 00:47:22.250 --> 00:47:25.910 in this ridiculous, gigantic new city. 00:47:25.910 --> 00:47:28.880 And he was in it for the money, and it was his land. 00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:33.370 And, because he owned the speck of island, 00:47:33.370 --> 00:47:36.490 he didn't need to get any permissions to build. 00:47:36.490 --> 00:47:40.190 And the Chinese developer was happy to fill. 00:47:40.190 --> 00:47:43.210 And so they filled everything, and it created-- 00:47:43.210 --> 00:47:46.450 it killed all of the fishing industry up and down 00:47:46.450 --> 00:47:47.650 the strait. 00:47:47.650 --> 00:47:49.420 And oh, this was a mistake. 00:47:49.420 --> 00:47:53.320 And they had to dig it out, and they had to re-go back, 00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:55.300 and they did this through court action 00:47:55.300 --> 00:47:58.900 because Singapore brought suit against Malaysia. 00:47:58.900 --> 00:48:00.790 And the Malaysian government sheepishly 00:48:00.790 --> 00:48:03.040 said, well, it was the state. 00:48:03.040 --> 00:48:05.560 We didn't know what they were doing. 00:48:05.560 --> 00:48:14.800 And this project is the largest planned community 00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:18.010 by a Chinese developer outside of China. 00:48:18.010 --> 00:48:22.420 And it's a gated community for Chinese. 00:48:22.420 --> 00:48:25.150 But it's going to use all the water and all the services 00:48:25.150 --> 00:48:27.470 and everything else from Johor. 00:48:27.470 --> 00:48:29.830 There's so many things about it which is-- 00:48:29.830 --> 00:48:34.000 but it's created the need for the Malaysia 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:36.220 national government and Singapore national government 00:48:36.220 --> 00:48:38.320 to work together on-- 00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:40.000 they are alleging it's climate change. 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:43.360 It's on sustainable development and the protection of wetlands 00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:45.520 and the protection of other resources. 00:48:45.520 --> 00:48:46.490 Sorry to go on. 00:48:46.490 --> 00:48:51.490 It's just-- I think you did a beautiful job. 00:48:51.490 --> 00:48:54.400 I'm delighted you chose the subject, 00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:57.280 and we'll be able to put this in the collection 00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:00.760 because it's an important example of nations 00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:05.110 where states within nations really are players. 00:49:05.110 --> 00:49:07.732 So this nation-to-nation treaty thing, 00:49:07.732 --> 00:49:09.190 the agreement isn't going to happen 00:49:09.190 --> 00:49:12.250 without Johorian involvement. 00:49:12.250 --> 00:49:16.870 And it involves all kinds of technology. 00:49:16.870 --> 00:49:19.840 Anyway, I think you did a great job, Flora. 00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:21.030 FLORA KLISE: Thanks so much. 00:49:21.030 --> 00:49:21.655 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 00:49:21.655 --> 00:49:22.990 So thanks, Flora. 00:49:22.990 --> 00:49:24.760 It was a wonderful presentation. 00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:28.060 And I think, in terms of improvement, 00:49:28.060 --> 00:49:31.030 in terms of exploration, you did an excellent job 00:49:31.030 --> 00:49:33.040 as I read your draft paper. 00:49:33.040 --> 00:49:36.880 And I already made comments I already sent to you. 00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:43.060 But, in the presentation, you incorporated the water 00:49:43.060 --> 00:49:44.530 diplomacy framework very well. 00:49:44.530 --> 00:49:48.020 But, in the paper, it was not, so maybe we'll work on that. 00:49:48.020 --> 00:49:53.170 And so maybe, for the implementing water diplomacy 00:49:53.170 --> 00:49:57.790 framework, if you just focus on the conflict-- 00:49:57.790 --> 00:50:00.460 in my view, this conflict now they're 00:50:00.460 --> 00:50:07.750 stuck is that Malaysia is demanding price increasing 00:50:07.750 --> 00:50:13.810 and Singapore is not willing to provide that much amount 00:50:13.810 --> 00:50:15.530 for the raw water. 00:50:15.530 --> 00:50:19.150 So, in that point, how you can-- 00:50:19.150 --> 00:50:23.590 yeah, so how this stuck can be-- 00:50:23.590 --> 00:50:27.070 dispositional things can be improved 00:50:27.070 --> 00:50:29.140 by these joint factfinding things. 00:50:29.140 --> 00:50:31.430 The issue that you already mentioned, 00:50:31.430 --> 00:50:34.270 if you just describe in a way that 00:50:34.270 --> 00:50:38.620 can provide a systematic explanation of the things, 00:50:38.620 --> 00:50:42.800 I think then the paper could be fantastic. 00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:47.770 It's already nice, but it can be further improved in that part. 00:50:47.770 --> 00:50:48.770 So yeah. 00:50:48.770 --> 00:50:50.770 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I do think, Flora, your tone 00:50:50.770 --> 00:50:54.700 about the relationship between these two countries 00:50:54.700 --> 00:51:00.080 and its historical roots is very, very true and very, 00:51:00.080 --> 00:51:01.550 very important. 00:51:01.550 --> 00:51:05.560 And one of the reasons is that this really simple water 00:51:05.560 --> 00:51:06.790 money-- 00:51:06.790 --> 00:51:09.760 recycled water treaty-- isn't getting 00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:15.340 fixed is Singapore doesn't want to admit any need for anything 00:51:15.340 --> 00:51:17.360 from Malaysia. 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:20.960 It's just-- it goes back to when they pulled apart, 00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:27.020 and Singapore felt it developed itself as a developed nation. 00:51:27.020 --> 00:51:31.430 And Malaysia took so much longer and didn't 00:51:31.430 --> 00:51:33.150 know how to do what they did. 00:51:33.150 --> 00:51:35.940 And they don't want to be beholden. 00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:39.060 I have the advantage of talking with the person who's 00:51:39.060 --> 00:51:42.690 doing the negotiations for Malaysia, who's a scientist, 00:51:42.690 --> 00:51:46.080 and he thinks the whole thing is ridiculous. 00:51:46.080 --> 00:51:47.860 And he just doesn't understand. 00:51:47.860 --> 00:51:50.170 What do you want? 00:51:50.170 --> 00:51:51.420 [? Is ?] [? that ?] the price? 00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:52.320 Come on. 00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:55.470 Let's ask some independent folks what the value of the water is 00:51:55.470 --> 00:51:56.970 and the recycled water. 00:51:56.970 --> 00:51:58.960 You've got a huge amount of money. 00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:01.080 It's not about the money. 00:52:01.080 --> 00:52:04.320 And I think, by involving more of the states, 00:52:04.320 --> 00:52:06.570 it will be easier for Singapore to say, 00:52:06.570 --> 00:52:10.580 well, we did this because we're helping those states, 00:52:10.580 --> 00:52:17.330 because they just can't swallow the idea of doing anything 00:52:17.330 --> 00:52:20.280 for or needing Malaysia. 00:52:20.280 --> 00:52:24.440 And I think you captured that tone very appropriately 00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:26.577 in your paper from the history. 00:52:26.577 --> 00:52:28.910 FLORA KLISE: I think that's one of the interesting parts 00:52:28.910 --> 00:52:33.170 of reading so many very partisan articles. 00:52:33.170 --> 00:52:38.240 It's very clear-- it makes it even more clear where 00:52:38.240 --> 00:52:42.620 the gaps in communication and pride and things 00:52:42.620 --> 00:52:46.160 like that play in, because it's just so obvious as someone 00:52:46.160 --> 00:52:47.210 impartial. 00:52:47.210 --> 00:52:50.180 You feel like the parent watching your kids bicker. 00:52:50.180 --> 00:52:53.150 You're like, you can both have water. 00:52:53.150 --> 00:52:57.020 You don't need to just say the other person's ugly. 00:52:57.020 --> 00:52:59.750 You can just take the water and then call it a day. 00:52:59.750 --> 00:53:01.490 So yeah, it was very interesting. 00:53:01.490 --> 00:53:05.473 There is not much literature, but there's a lot of coverage. 00:53:05.473 --> 00:53:07.640 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: There's a lot of coverage, yeah. 00:53:07.640 --> 00:53:09.110 Well, people have been discouraged. 00:53:09.110 --> 00:53:11.690 Scholars have been discouraged from writing about it quite 00:53:11.690 --> 00:53:15.350 explicitly at University in Singapore and University 00:53:15.350 --> 00:53:17.690 of Technology in Malaysia that I work with. 00:53:17.690 --> 00:53:19.750 They've been told, don't do it. 00:53:19.750 --> 00:53:23.840 You're killing your career if you write anything scholarly 00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:27.260 about this, because this isn't really a scholarly issue. 00:53:27.260 --> 00:53:28.010 And nobody wants-- 00:53:28.010 --> 00:53:30.343 FLORA KLISE: Hopefully, that doesn't come bite me later. 00:53:30.343 --> 00:53:32.360 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Yeah. 00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:35.030 But, for us, studying water diplomacy 00:53:35.030 --> 00:53:40.580 to understand that the root issue is this historical not 00:53:40.580 --> 00:53:46.187 just lack of trust, but really, almost hatred of two parties 00:53:46.187 --> 00:53:47.645 that were part of the same country. 00:53:50.690 --> 00:53:51.950 It's difficult. 00:53:51.950 --> 00:53:54.560 And I think there's also-- 00:53:54.560 --> 00:54:00.350 partly, this is about the fact that the Muslim majority 00:54:00.350 --> 00:54:07.530 in Malaysia is, in some ways, losing control. 00:54:07.530 --> 00:54:10.575 It still gets who it wants elected, 00:54:10.575 --> 00:54:13.200 and it's still 51% Muslim. 00:54:13.200 --> 00:54:16.470 And the Chinese, though, are really 00:54:16.470 --> 00:54:19.710 controlling industry in Malaysia. 00:54:19.710 --> 00:54:22.200 They're controlling wealth in Malaysia, 00:54:22.200 --> 00:54:27.720 whereas the Muslim majority, bare majority, 00:54:27.720 --> 00:54:31.970 is controlling government in Malaysia and certain-- 00:54:31.970 --> 00:54:33.840 a few industries. 00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:43.500 And it's-- Singapore is not interested in acknowledging 00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:49.390 the power of a Malaysian partner who is Muslim. 00:54:49.390 --> 00:54:51.690 They're much more focused on Chinese. 00:54:51.690 --> 00:54:54.390 And the Muslim majority in Malaysia 00:54:54.390 --> 00:54:59.580 thinks that the Chinese minority is using its connections 00:54:59.580 --> 00:55:03.150 to Singapore to build more of its strength and power 00:55:03.150 --> 00:55:06.240 in Malaysia and wants to take over the government, which 00:55:06.240 --> 00:55:10.830 has always been the domain of the Muslim majority. 00:55:10.830 --> 00:55:14.370 So all of these pieces and parts, 00:55:14.370 --> 00:55:16.260 these are part of water diplomacy. 00:55:16.260 --> 00:55:19.890 And I think your case is important because it brings out 00:55:19.890 --> 00:55:23.070 these are not just about natural resource 00:55:23.070 --> 00:55:26.610 management or territory. 00:55:26.610 --> 00:55:32.040 This is about this lack of trust in this difficult relationship 00:55:32.040 --> 00:55:34.350 between the two countries, which you do 00:55:34.350 --> 00:55:37.310 a really nice job of raising.