1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,980 [SQUEAKING] 2 00:00:01,980 --> 00:00:02,970 [RUSTLING] 3 00:00:02,970 --> 00:00:04,950 [CLICKING] 4 00:00:24,300 --> 00:00:29,380 DR. GAIN: So today we are going to talk about the evolution 5 00:00:29,380 --> 00:00:31,138 of water resources management. 6 00:00:31,138 --> 00:00:32,680 And at the end of the class, you will 7 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:38,380 be able to describe paradigm shift and evolution of water 8 00:00:38,380 --> 00:00:41,620 resources management in general. 9 00:00:41,620 --> 00:00:43,600 But also, you can critically evaluate 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:48,340 the importance of IWRM for water diplomacy, 11 00:00:48,340 --> 00:00:53,470 and also Water-Energy-Food nexus and its relation with water 12 00:00:53,470 --> 00:00:57,070 diplomacy, and also importance of water diplomacy 13 00:00:57,070 --> 00:01:00,730 for achieving sustainable development goals. 14 00:01:00,730 --> 00:01:04,989 Today's talk is regarding a new process-- 15 00:01:04,989 --> 00:01:06,850 recent-- a process of water resources 16 00:01:06,850 --> 00:01:09,730 management and sustainable development goals 17 00:01:09,730 --> 00:01:12,400 and its relation with our water diplomacy. 18 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,970 In this figure, I try to summarize 19 00:01:18,970 --> 00:01:23,070 taken from these references how the water resource 20 00:01:23,070 --> 00:01:26,400 management has evolved throughout the time. 21 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:27,870 It has four metrics. 22 00:01:27,870 --> 00:01:30,390 You can see that from the centralized management 23 00:01:30,390 --> 00:01:35,490 to decentralized management in the vertical axis. 24 00:01:35,490 --> 00:01:38,100 And from centralized management, it 25 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:42,030 means the centralized form of governance 26 00:01:42,030 --> 00:01:46,290 where the stakeholder engagement and participation is-- 27 00:01:46,290 --> 00:01:50,430 the possibility of stakeholder engagement is very low. 28 00:01:50,430 --> 00:01:53,520 But when it moves to the decentralized 29 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,390 form of governance, it can enclose stakeholder engagement 30 00:01:57,390 --> 00:02:01,410 from local peoples and local participations. 31 00:02:01,410 --> 00:02:04,020 And in the horizontal axis, you can 32 00:02:04,020 --> 00:02:07,230 see from the supply side management 33 00:02:07,230 --> 00:02:10,080 to the demand side management. 34 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:16,830 In the left upper corner, this is the traditional development 35 00:02:16,830 --> 00:02:20,190 of water resources management-- not only water resources 36 00:02:20,190 --> 00:02:24,030 management, any development started from this side. 37 00:02:24,030 --> 00:02:28,850 So it's highly centralized and supply side approach. 38 00:02:28,850 --> 00:02:33,740 So this is the first development pattern of water resources. 39 00:02:33,740 --> 00:02:40,990 So for example in this case, only option is to invest-- 40 00:02:40,990 --> 00:02:45,810 how to create dams, construction, reservoirs. 41 00:02:45,810 --> 00:02:49,350 So this is the only consideration for the water 42 00:02:49,350 --> 00:02:50,850 resources management. 43 00:02:50,850 --> 00:02:54,010 And it's considered only engineering-based approach, 44 00:02:54,010 --> 00:02:57,900 and it's very technocratic approach without considering 45 00:02:57,900 --> 00:03:01,680 societal aspects or economic aspects-- 46 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,500 mainly how to make the development 47 00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:08,400 and how the development pattern is start, 48 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,710 and how the engineering structures 49 00:03:10,710 --> 00:03:16,840 can help to make the development effective. 50 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,760 So this is the only consideration in this phase. 51 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:25,140 And then, so this is the position 52 00:03:25,140 --> 00:03:31,050 of A in the left-hand side upper corner. 53 00:03:31,050 --> 00:03:39,360 And but slowly, it moves from A to B. And in that case, 54 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,990 from investment-oriented decision, it moves-- 55 00:03:42,990 --> 00:03:47,490 it takes consideration of the societal issues slowly. 56 00:03:47,490 --> 00:03:53,010 And then, so initial management paradigm 57 00:03:53,010 --> 00:03:57,300 considers mainly engineers, hydrologists, and technocrats. 58 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:02,730 But slowly, they can understand that this can create 59 00:04:02,730 --> 00:04:04,800 consequences to the society. 60 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,240 And they can try to understand the demand of the local people 61 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:09,840 slowly. 62 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,720 And so, they try to incorporate the-- 63 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,050 they try to realize that water is not only 64 00:04:16,050 --> 00:04:23,080 the development pattern or supply side management. 65 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,630 It needs to consider also societal and economic aspect. 66 00:04:27,630 --> 00:04:31,110 And thus, the demand side options is started, 67 00:04:31,110 --> 00:04:33,540 and the demand side management is started. 68 00:04:33,540 --> 00:04:37,350 And then slowly, it moves to the C. And in that case, 69 00:04:37,350 --> 00:04:41,370 institutional reformation start, or for example, 70 00:04:41,370 --> 00:04:45,150 decentralized form of governance institution. 71 00:04:45,150 --> 00:04:48,480 And yeah, so the-- 72 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:53,790 from engineering-based structure of the management 73 00:04:53,790 --> 00:05:03,630 paradigm shift towards different disciplinary bodies 74 00:05:03,630 --> 00:05:07,170 in the management body, but also local engagement 75 00:05:07,170 --> 00:05:10,300 can also take place. 76 00:05:10,300 --> 00:05:14,130 So this is the overall broader evolution 77 00:05:14,130 --> 00:05:16,620 of the water resources management 78 00:05:16,620 --> 00:05:20,410 happens internationally-- and also many countries. 79 00:05:20,410 --> 00:05:26,100 So here I can give an example how it happens in Bangladesh. 80 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:29,280 Because I know this-- 81 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,880 the context of Bangladesh water resources management-- how 82 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,370 it happens throughout the time. 83 00:05:35,370 --> 00:05:39,300 So I can also explain the graph that I have shown 84 00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:42,780 and what happens practically in the Bangladesh case. 85 00:05:42,780 --> 00:05:50,910 So before 1947, Bangladesh was part of the British colony. 86 00:05:50,910 --> 00:05:55,200 And during that time, there is no embankment 87 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,530 to protect flooding in Bangladesh. 88 00:05:59,530 --> 00:06:07,460 So in that time, local people manage the embankment 89 00:06:07,460 --> 00:06:13,670 during the dry season to grow the crops. 90 00:06:13,670 --> 00:06:16,250 And in that case, landlords-- 91 00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:21,830 the British empire provide ownership 92 00:06:21,830 --> 00:06:25,520 to the landlord to manage a specific area of land. 93 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:30,380 And to engaging local farmers, the landlords 94 00:06:30,380 --> 00:06:35,150 was responsible for managing flood protection embankments 95 00:06:35,150 --> 00:06:40,320 only during the dry season for growing crops. 96 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:46,460 But during rainy season, that embankment was, yeah-- 97 00:06:46,460 --> 00:06:49,220 vanished because of the rainfall. 98 00:06:49,220 --> 00:06:52,790 And the river water could enter into the flood plain. 99 00:06:52,790 --> 00:06:55,700 And it helps sedimentation. 100 00:06:55,700 --> 00:07:00,530 And it increases the yeah-- so land formation 101 00:07:00,530 --> 00:07:03,740 was happening during that time because sediment 102 00:07:03,740 --> 00:07:07,710 could come into the floodplain. 103 00:07:07,710 --> 00:07:11,720 And so this is kind of a natural process 104 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,610 was maintained during that period. 105 00:07:14,610 --> 00:07:19,220 But after 1947, the British colony ended. 106 00:07:19,220 --> 00:07:25,010 And there is no institution like the landlord management 107 00:07:25,010 --> 00:07:26,820 territory was not there. 108 00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:34,760 And since then, this part of land was part of Indian estate. 109 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:40,550 So it was India and Pakistan was divided. 110 00:07:40,550 --> 00:07:44,580 And Bangladesh was part of the East Pakistan during that time. 111 00:07:44,580 --> 00:07:48,830 And so during that time, there is no responsible authority 112 00:07:48,830 --> 00:07:52,370 to managing the embankment or floodplain. 113 00:07:52,370 --> 00:07:57,040 And during that time in 1954 and '55, 114 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,030 there was a major flood events. 115 00:08:01,030 --> 00:08:05,800 And after that flood events, flood protection embankments 116 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,300 was constructed in 1960s. 117 00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:14,800 And you see during that period heavy engineering works 118 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,150 started. 119 00:08:16,150 --> 00:08:21,460 And in that case, the embankment protect the flooding 120 00:08:21,460 --> 00:08:24,160 from the river. 121 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:33,250 But also it helps initially the agricultural production highly. 122 00:08:33,250 --> 00:08:41,490 But slowly after a few years, this river 123 00:08:41,490 --> 00:08:43,409 carries a huge amount of sediment. 124 00:08:43,409 --> 00:08:47,040 And that sediment deposited in the flood plain, 125 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,220 and that makes the land formation in the floodplain. 126 00:08:50,220 --> 00:08:52,920 But due to the embankment, this process 127 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:58,260 was not taking place due to the construction of the embankment. 128 00:08:58,260 --> 00:09:03,600 And then the sedimentation was happening in the riverbed 129 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,610 instead of the floodplain. 130 00:09:05,610 --> 00:09:08,190 So the floodplain-- the land formation 131 00:09:08,190 --> 00:09:10,080 was not happening in the floodplain. 132 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:17,340 But those sediment was deposited in the riverbed. 133 00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:19,650 And that increased the riverbed. 134 00:09:19,650 --> 00:09:22,470 And it reduces the navigability. 135 00:09:22,470 --> 00:09:26,560 At the same time, the internal water logging is started. 136 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:32,400 So in 1980s, this whole area of floodplain becomes waterlogged. 137 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,610 And permanent flooding was happening 138 00:09:35,610 --> 00:09:38,670 because of this construction of embankments. 139 00:09:38,670 --> 00:09:42,930 So you see how the consequence started from the supply side 140 00:09:42,930 --> 00:09:50,790 approach considering only the narrow focus of the supply side 141 00:09:50,790 --> 00:09:51,430 process. 142 00:09:51,430 --> 00:09:53,400 So initially it helps in improving 143 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,020 the agricultural production. 144 00:09:55,020 --> 00:10:01,860 But in the long run, it created a disaster to the local people. 145 00:10:01,860 --> 00:10:04,650 So local people understood this process. 146 00:10:04,650 --> 00:10:08,890 And they really understood what is happening there. 147 00:10:08,890 --> 00:10:14,010 So going against the government, they 148 00:10:14,010 --> 00:10:17,760 tried to cut the embankment and bring the river 149 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:19,740 water inside the floodplain. 150 00:10:19,740 --> 00:10:24,750 And this process they call this, is tidal river management 151 00:10:24,750 --> 00:10:26,790 in 1990s. 152 00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:31,140 So they tried to implement this process going 153 00:10:31,140 --> 00:10:33,840 against government process. 154 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,600 And they tried to implement locally 155 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,090 with self-organizing capacity. 156 00:10:39,090 --> 00:10:42,690 And they implemented it on floodplain. 157 00:10:42,690 --> 00:10:44,370 And they were successful. 158 00:10:44,370 --> 00:10:47,940 And they after two years, they were 159 00:10:47,940 --> 00:10:53,460 able to see the major impact, like navigability 160 00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:57,520 in the riverbed is increased. 161 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,500 And also the floodplain-- the sedimentation was 162 00:11:01,500 --> 00:11:03,400 happening in the floodplain. 163 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:09,920 So then the government could also see the positive benefits. 164 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,550 So then they tried to institutionalize this approach 165 00:11:13,550 --> 00:11:17,450 in the government approach. 166 00:11:17,450 --> 00:11:21,440 So you can see how the transformation or evolution 167 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,020 happened in this context-- 168 00:11:24,020 --> 00:11:26,870 a similar explanation that I just 169 00:11:26,870 --> 00:11:30,770 gave in the previous slide, just to 170 00:11:30,770 --> 00:11:35,640 show how the evolution was happening. 171 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:41,120 I also tried to explain how a paradigm shift in water 172 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:46,550 resources management happen through the literature provided 173 00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:49,230 by Claudia Pahl-Wostl. 174 00:11:49,230 --> 00:11:55,400 She's one of the experts on adaptive water resources 175 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,610 management or integrated water resources management. 176 00:11:58,610 --> 00:12:06,590 And so, in her work she tried to categorize or explain 177 00:12:06,590 --> 00:12:13,440 different dimensions of water resources management 178 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,160 from command and control approach 179 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:18,610 to the integrated approach. 180 00:12:18,610 --> 00:12:25,600 So in the governance dimensions that the major paradigm shift 181 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,050 happened from centralized form of governance 182 00:12:29,050 --> 00:12:34,420 to the polycentric form of governance, which 183 00:12:34,420 --> 00:12:38,830 incorporates both integration of top-down and bottom-up 184 00:12:38,830 --> 00:12:40,120 approach. 185 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,950 And also in terms of sectoral integration, 186 00:12:42,950 --> 00:12:50,420 in the case of command and control approach, in that case, 187 00:12:50,420 --> 00:12:53,590 the sectoral integration was not possible. 188 00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:56,050 And it creates policy conflicts. 189 00:12:56,050 --> 00:13:00,640 But in the integrated form-- integrated and adaptive form 190 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,660 of management, the cross-sectoral integration 191 00:13:04,660 --> 00:13:05,740 is possible. 192 00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:11,180 And that also integrates policy implementation. 193 00:13:11,180 --> 00:13:17,170 So in the case of scale of analysis and operation, 194 00:13:17,170 --> 00:13:19,660 this transboundary problems emerge 195 00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:23,890 when rivers or basins are exclusive scale 196 00:13:23,890 --> 00:13:27,190 of analysis and management. 197 00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:30,640 But in the integrated form of governance, 198 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,790 the trans boundary issues addressed by multiple scale 199 00:13:33,790 --> 00:13:39,270 of analysis and management. 200 00:13:39,270 --> 00:13:44,280 And in the case of information management, 201 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,700 understanding fragmented by gaps and lack 202 00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:53,520 of integration or proprietary information sources. 203 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,930 But in the case of integrated form of governance, 204 00:13:57,930 --> 00:14:00,030 this comprehensive understanding achieved 205 00:14:00,030 --> 00:14:03,120 by open shared information sources 206 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,080 that fill gaps and facilitate integration. 207 00:14:10,490 --> 00:14:13,770 And there are also three other dimensions. 208 00:14:13,770 --> 00:14:16,310 So as infrastructure, you can see 209 00:14:16,310 --> 00:14:20,870 that in the first cases, only the command and control 210 00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:25,520 approach massive centralized infrastructure 211 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,110 design and engineering with structure is dominant. 212 00:14:30,110 --> 00:14:35,030 But in the case of integrative and adaptive water resources 213 00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:39,470 management, this incorporates a combination of centralized 214 00:14:39,470 --> 00:14:45,440 and decentralized diverse source of design and power delivery 215 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,570 is very important. 216 00:14:47,570 --> 00:14:52,010 And in terms of financial and risk management, 217 00:14:52,010 --> 00:14:55,290 this case is only structural protection. 218 00:14:55,290 --> 00:14:58,250 And these risks are considered. 219 00:14:58,250 --> 00:15:01,490 But in the case of integrated management, 220 00:15:01,490 --> 00:15:05,990 diversified financial resources are 221 00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:09,770 considered for by considering broad set 222 00:15:09,770 --> 00:15:15,460 of private and public financial instruments. 223 00:15:15,460 --> 00:15:18,520 And important aspect is dealing with uncertainty. 224 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,740 In the case of command and control approach, 225 00:15:20,740 --> 00:15:24,460 it is considered that uncertainty 226 00:15:24,460 --> 00:15:28,630 is considered as undesirable sign of incomplete knowledge. 227 00:15:28,630 --> 00:15:30,520 So they don't know what will happen 228 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,310 and how to manage the uncertainty. 229 00:15:33,310 --> 00:15:36,140 And this will create major problem. 230 00:15:36,140 --> 00:15:40,540 But adaptive and integrated management, 231 00:15:40,540 --> 00:15:45,040 the irreducible uncertainties are acceptable, 232 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,140 and the adaptive approaches are taken 233 00:15:47,140 --> 00:15:51,610 how to deal with the future uncertain outcomes 234 00:15:51,610 --> 00:15:55,280 by considering different scenarios. 235 00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:02,350 For example, different perspectives 236 00:16:02,350 --> 00:16:04,540 are explicitly acknowledged. 237 00:16:04,540 --> 00:16:12,250 So here you can see difference between the two approaches 238 00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:16,040 from command and control to the integrated approach. 239 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,610 So now we would like to introduce 240 00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:25,030 one of the major paradigm shift and major dominant paradigm 241 00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:27,700 of water resource management, which is integrated 242 00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:31,230 water resources management. 243 00:16:31,230 --> 00:16:36,150 And of course, these pulls in the right-hand side 244 00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:39,070 characteristics that I have shown here. 245 00:16:39,070 --> 00:16:45,030 So integrative and integrated water resources management. 246 00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:48,540 Yeah, integrated water resources management is not new. 247 00:16:48,540 --> 00:16:54,330 Although that is internationally conceptualized recently 248 00:16:54,330 --> 00:17:00,960 in the 20th century and at the end of the 20th century 249 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,290 is introduced in the international arena. 250 00:17:04,290 --> 00:17:11,160 But there are ancient practices that incorporate-- 251 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,119 integrated the major dimensions of integrated water resources 252 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,520 management has been considered. 253 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:23,130 For example, in 9th century, Subak irrigation system in Bali 254 00:17:23,130 --> 00:17:26,099 is one of the ancient irrigation practices 255 00:17:26,099 --> 00:17:31,170 which practice this integrated water resources management. 256 00:17:31,170 --> 00:17:33,240 Of course, without knowing the concept, 257 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,410 but they tried to incorporate the integration 258 00:17:37,410 --> 00:17:43,620 self-organization for managing the Bali irrigation systems 259 00:17:43,620 --> 00:17:47,730 through ancient practices. 260 00:17:47,730 --> 00:17:52,750 Here, I wanted to share a video a very short video-- 261 00:17:52,750 --> 00:17:54,980 but you can find interesting how they 262 00:17:54,980 --> 00:17:58,860 were able to manage this Subak irrigation 263 00:17:58,860 --> 00:18:05,180 system in the Balinese agricultural practices. 264 00:18:05,180 --> 00:18:06,820 So let me share this. 265 00:18:11,869 --> 00:18:14,580 You can see how self-organization 266 00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:22,470 and cooperative water management has taken place 267 00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:25,380 since that ancient time. 268 00:18:25,380 --> 00:18:31,350 And not only the Subak system, but also there 269 00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:35,610 are other historical practices that 270 00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:41,280 incorporates this integrated form of resource management 271 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:42,270 practices. 272 00:18:42,270 --> 00:18:44,970 And other water resources management practices 273 00:18:44,970 --> 00:18:50,940 in Valencia, Spain, the multi-stakeholder participatory 274 00:18:50,940 --> 00:18:56,890 water tribunal have operated at least since 10th century. 275 00:18:56,890 --> 00:19:05,820 But also, the modern form of integrated water resources 276 00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:10,890 management was influenced mainly by Tennessee Valley Authority 277 00:19:10,890 --> 00:19:16,810 created in 1933 to holistically manage water resources. 278 00:19:16,810 --> 00:19:22,920 So I don't know whether you are familiar with the Tennessee 279 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,390 Valley Authority. 280 00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:28,485 Did-- some of you are familiar with this? 281 00:19:28,485 --> 00:19:31,170 Larry, do you know? 282 00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:35,242 I know some information, but probably you 283 00:19:35,242 --> 00:19:37,980 know better than me regarding the TVA 284 00:19:37,980 --> 00:19:41,290 form of management approach. 285 00:19:41,290 --> 00:19:43,830 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Well, TVA wasn't just set up 286 00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:46,310 as a water management body. 287 00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:51,690 The Tennessee Valley Authority had enormous scope 288 00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:55,450 of development power and responsibility. 289 00:19:55,450 --> 00:19:58,740 And one of the few times in the United States 290 00:19:58,740 --> 00:20:04,440 where there was development across a large region, 291 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,430 more than just a city or a metropolitan area. 292 00:20:08,430 --> 00:20:10,770 This covered much more of an area. 293 00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:15,660 And it attempted to give public management 294 00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:20,760 to infrastructure at a scale that the United States wasn't 295 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:21,910 used to. 296 00:20:21,910 --> 00:20:31,410 And as you point out, it was credited with being a planning 297 00:20:31,410 --> 00:20:32,850 mechanism. 298 00:20:32,850 --> 00:20:38,770 But given how anti-planning the United States has always been, 299 00:20:38,770 --> 00:20:43,260 I think it's more helpful to think about it as a development 300 00:20:43,260 --> 00:20:44,880 mechanism. 301 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,960 And we had-- and still have-- but we had then 302 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,550 lagging regions in terms of economic development. 303 00:20:53,550 --> 00:20:59,910 And the strategy was, let's make a massive investment 304 00:20:59,910 --> 00:21:01,920 in a lagging region. 305 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,840 Let's have all of the infrastructure-- 306 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,370 roads that connect it to other places, water 307 00:21:11,370 --> 00:21:15,700 that it needs, electricity or hydropower that it needs-- 308 00:21:15,700 --> 00:21:18,360 let's have all of the infrastructure 309 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,670 done simultaneously. 310 00:21:20,670 --> 00:21:26,580 And let's invest government funding at a large enough scale 311 00:21:26,580 --> 00:21:31,230 that it would then promote subsequent private investment 312 00:21:31,230 --> 00:21:38,430 and make it a sustainable place but with a much larger role 313 00:21:38,430 --> 00:21:42,090 for government-managed infrastructure. 314 00:21:44,850 --> 00:21:46,890 That never took off as an idea. 315 00:21:46,890 --> 00:21:50,250 We don't see other regions of the United States 316 00:21:50,250 --> 00:21:55,170 where lagging areas were targeted 317 00:21:55,170 --> 00:21:58,300 by an economic development strategy that said, 318 00:21:58,300 --> 00:22:01,560 let's have a massive public investment in all 319 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,790 of the infrastructure, job creation, training, 320 00:22:05,790 --> 00:22:08,910 and let's not worry about state and local government. 321 00:22:08,910 --> 00:22:14,520 And let's do it at a scale that turns around a lagging region. 322 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,630 Because smaller scale efforts to turn around lagging regions 323 00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:19,720 don't work. 324 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,470 So the way to understand the TVA story-- 325 00:22:23,470 --> 00:22:26,610 and there are many books written about TVA-- 326 00:22:26,610 --> 00:22:37,410 longing for a regional publicly managed massive infrastructure 327 00:22:37,410 --> 00:22:42,900 project that would stimulate the economy in a way that 328 00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:45,730 wouldn't happen otherwise. 329 00:22:45,730 --> 00:22:47,920 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 330 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:54,640 Also, in the IWRM literature globally, this TVA approach 331 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,140 is highly acknowledged. 332 00:22:56,140 --> 00:23:01,060 And it says that the TVA-like approach mushroomed 333 00:23:01,060 --> 00:23:07,540 all over the world for mainly agricultural development 334 00:23:07,540 --> 00:23:09,440 in the developing countries. 335 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:15,880 So that culture has been practiced also 336 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:21,190 in other places, and regional development plan 337 00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:25,750 through incorporating for example power generation, flood 338 00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:29,230 control, and how this integration happens. 339 00:23:29,230 --> 00:23:36,100 And also the concept integration of multiple sectors in the IWRM 340 00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:39,910 also came from this TVA-like approach 341 00:23:39,910 --> 00:23:44,395 that is mentioned in the IWRM literature. 342 00:23:47,010 --> 00:23:50,670 Yeah, so before going to IWRM principles, 343 00:23:50,670 --> 00:23:57,200 maybe we can have a participatory discussion here. 344 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,860 Why IWRM is important for water diplomacy in your opinion. 345 00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:03,800 I wanted to make it a breakout group. 346 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,850 But as we are only five people, so maybe 347 00:24:07,850 --> 00:24:11,030 we can discuss why in your opinion-- 348 00:24:11,030 --> 00:24:13,760 also there was a memo on this. 349 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,980 So maybe we can discuss here why IWRM is 350 00:24:18,980 --> 00:24:21,800 important for water diplomacy. 351 00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:28,900 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Well I guess first, do you think it is? 352 00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:35,850 What is it about integrated management of water resources 353 00:24:35,850 --> 00:24:42,060 that makes it an important element of dealing 354 00:24:42,060 --> 00:24:43,635 with trans-boundary waters? 355 00:24:47,770 --> 00:24:50,170 GEMMA HOLT: This is a little bit of low-hanging fruit. 356 00:24:50,170 --> 00:24:53,980 But one of the readings observed that it's the dominant paradigm 357 00:24:53,980 --> 00:24:56,360 for water management globally. 358 00:24:56,360 --> 00:25:00,430 So it is therefore important to diplomacy. 359 00:25:00,430 --> 00:25:03,990 But I think one of the other things that stood out to me-- 360 00:25:03,990 --> 00:25:06,540 and I wrote a little bit about this in my memo-- 361 00:25:06,540 --> 00:25:13,900 is just efforts to move beyond diplomatic silos. 362 00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:17,290 There was an example in the Liu et al. 363 00:25:17,290 --> 00:25:19,840 piece that really stood out to me about biofuels, 364 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,240 and how the development of biofuels 365 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,960 subsequently catalyzed or exacerbated 366 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,050 existing problems with water and food scarcity. 367 00:25:30,050 --> 00:25:34,880 So the need for a more integrated management approach 368 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,970 felt urgent and necessary as we move 369 00:25:38,970 --> 00:25:44,140 towards perhaps greater scarcity in certain water systems. 370 00:25:44,140 --> 00:25:46,480 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: But how would that work? 371 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,140 Or theoretically, how might that work 372 00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:54,400 in context in which we do have siloed 373 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,180 entities responsible for things like water? 374 00:25:58,180 --> 00:26:01,780 And if you say, well, integrated management 375 00:26:01,780 --> 00:26:05,870 is the key to managing water in the future 376 00:26:05,870 --> 00:26:09,730 so that you can connect water with energy, with food, 377 00:26:09,730 --> 00:26:10,750 with land? 378 00:26:10,750 --> 00:26:14,980 But that's not how those entities are set up. 379 00:26:14,980 --> 00:26:15,730 Gemma Holt: Right. 380 00:26:15,730 --> 00:26:16,600 Yeah. 381 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:23,590 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Aren't we basically setting up systems 382 00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:28,000 to fail if we say that they have to be integrated in order to do 383 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,870 water management when we know that they're not, therefore 384 00:26:31,870 --> 00:26:35,080 what are we hoping for? 385 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,120 GEMMA HOLT: That was a good question. 386 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:40,600 I don't know if I have an immediate answer. 387 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,027 I'll think about that though. 388 00:26:42,027 --> 00:26:44,360 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I'm not sure there's a right answer. 389 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:45,310 GEMMA HOLT: Yeah. 390 00:26:45,310 --> 00:26:51,210 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: It seems to me that from a planning 391 00:26:51,210 --> 00:26:54,010 perspective-- urban regional planning perspective, 392 00:26:54,010 --> 00:26:55,890 not a water perspective-- 393 00:26:55,890 --> 00:26:59,280 there's always an argument for centuries 394 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,100 that the way to plan cities effectively 395 00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:06,480 is to start with a clean empty area 396 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:12,180 and have a designer make a comprehensive integrated plan 397 00:27:12,180 --> 00:27:15,030 so that the land is used efficiently, 398 00:27:15,030 --> 00:27:18,630 so that all the uses are appropriately laid out 399 00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:22,800 and separate from each other when that's appropriate, 400 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:28,140 and that you don't have to have holes in the plan 401 00:27:28,140 --> 00:27:32,250 where there's private ownership or other things that happen. 402 00:27:32,250 --> 00:27:34,980 And you don't have to worry over time, 403 00:27:34,980 --> 00:27:37,740 because you just started building in one corner, 404 00:27:37,740 --> 00:27:42,630 and by the time it was done it was just a giant pattern 405 00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:44,710 of uncontrolled development. 406 00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:50,370 The idea has always been that you should plan whole cities 407 00:27:50,370 --> 00:27:52,110 in a comprehensive way. 408 00:27:52,110 --> 00:27:58,080 To me, IWRM has some of the same resonance. 409 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:04,800 Now we know, in real life there are very, very few planned 410 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,600 cities where the whole city was laid out 411 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:15,060 and all of its evolution was guided by or controlled 412 00:28:15,060 --> 00:28:17,730 by the original plan. 413 00:28:17,730 --> 00:28:21,990 And it's very hard to have in a democratic context, 414 00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:27,510 and one in which there's private land ownership, continuity 415 00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:30,480 with a single plan. 416 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,590 And even in some parts of the world where historically there 417 00:28:34,590 --> 00:28:39,270 were efforts to plan whole new capitals, whole new cities, 418 00:28:39,270 --> 00:28:41,520 where they brought in a famous architect who 419 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:47,260 made a beautiful plan for the whole place, over decades 420 00:28:47,260 --> 00:28:50,470 the place changes from what the original design 421 00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:53,900 was for all kinds of reasons. 422 00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:55,690 Not the least of which is people want 423 00:28:55,690 --> 00:28:59,350 to have choice about what things are going to look like, 424 00:28:59,350 --> 00:29:02,440 and what they can do with what their land is, 425 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,470 and what say they have in a democratic context. 426 00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:13,630 So just for purposes of pursuing further the question 427 00:29:13,630 --> 00:29:16,330 that I asked you, Gemma, is do you 428 00:29:16,330 --> 00:29:20,380 imagine that people in a democratic context 429 00:29:20,380 --> 00:29:26,560 can live, and work, and build in a way that's comprehensive, 430 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:33,700 integrated, and planned when all the forces of democracy, 431 00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:37,390 privatization, individuality, and all 432 00:29:37,390 --> 00:29:42,960 the unexpected things that happen organically 433 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,610 pull in the opposite direction? 434 00:29:50,692 --> 00:29:52,650 GEMMA HOLT: I mean, I think I have to say, yes, 435 00:29:52,650 --> 00:29:56,280 but that's my prerogative as a first semester urban planning 436 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:57,150 student. 437 00:29:57,150 --> 00:29:59,340 If I've already given up on the field, 438 00:29:59,340 --> 00:30:01,020 then it may be too late for me. 439 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:10,240 I think that some healthy skepticism isn't uncalled 440 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:11,140 for, I guess. 441 00:30:11,140 --> 00:30:13,540 I mean, I don't know. 442 00:30:13,540 --> 00:30:17,990 I guess what is resonant about IWRM, 443 00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:23,540 and the Water Nexus approach, and science policy interfaces 444 00:30:23,540 --> 00:30:27,960 more broadly as the potential to reimagine 445 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,480 existing diplomatic regimes. 446 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,840 But I don't know whether that actually will work in practice. 447 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,210 So maybe it's just an intellectual exercise. 448 00:30:36,210 --> 00:30:39,343 But I think it's a useful intellectual exercise. 449 00:30:39,343 --> 00:30:41,010 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: But it's only useful 450 00:30:41,010 --> 00:30:45,490 if it inspires something in practice that can be done. 451 00:30:45,490 --> 00:30:45,990 Right? 452 00:30:45,990 --> 00:30:46,200 GEMMA HOLT: Yeah. 453 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,658 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: It's not useful 454 00:30:47,658 --> 00:30:50,310 if it alludes to something in theory that 455 00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:54,370 can't be done in practice, and everybody's just thwarted 456 00:30:54,370 --> 00:30:58,900 and can't achieve what they're supposed to-- or the ideal. 457 00:30:58,900 --> 00:31:03,730 And just to loop back around again to urban planning, 458 00:31:03,730 --> 00:31:08,920 nobody in urban planning teaches about comprehensive planned 459 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:14,050 cities anymore except as an intriguing historical artifact. 460 00:31:14,050 --> 00:31:18,160 Nobody would imagine that you would build a place according 461 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,450 to a plan at time one and expect at time two 462 00:31:22,450 --> 00:31:25,180 a decade, two decades, a century later, 463 00:31:25,180 --> 00:31:28,090 that the place is going to have anything to do with what 464 00:31:28,090 --> 00:31:30,130 that original plan was. 465 00:31:30,130 --> 00:31:34,920 And yet they still think there's planning going on. 466 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:41,682 The planning is about the process of adaptation. 467 00:31:41,682 --> 00:31:42,390 GEMMA HOLT: Yeah. 468 00:31:42,390 --> 00:31:43,848 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: The planning is 469 00:31:43,848 --> 00:31:47,280 to create the institutions to be able to modify 470 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,620 what you're doing collectively. 471 00:31:50,620 --> 00:31:53,490 So it's still planning, it's just not 472 00:31:53,490 --> 00:32:00,500 planning to achieve a preordained comprehensive idea. 473 00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:03,290 And I would argue in the water realm, 474 00:32:03,290 --> 00:32:09,570 we ought to be worried about IWRM as an ideal. 475 00:32:09,570 --> 00:32:11,970 Because it presumes there are institutions 476 00:32:11,970 --> 00:32:15,930 with the authority, the power, with the knowledge 477 00:32:15,930 --> 00:32:20,850 to integrate across all of these multiple dimensions, 478 00:32:20,850 --> 00:32:25,170 in spite of the fact that we have created the silos that you 479 00:32:25,170 --> 00:32:30,830 alluded to, and that there are contending interests trying 480 00:32:30,830 --> 00:32:37,030 to pursue and maximize different outcomes that 481 00:32:37,030 --> 00:32:40,340 are good from their standpoint. 482 00:32:40,340 --> 00:32:42,940 So for the reasons I worry about comprehensive planning-- 483 00:32:42,940 --> 00:32:46,460 I worry about IWRM. 484 00:32:46,460 --> 00:32:49,710 DR. GAIN: So any other thoughts regarding IWRM? 485 00:32:53,772 --> 00:32:56,230 FLORA KLISE: I think something related to what we were just 486 00:32:56,230 --> 00:33:00,400 talking about is the interesting fact that in some ways, 487 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,310 the IWRM is very broad. 488 00:33:03,310 --> 00:33:05,080 But then in other ways, a lot of people 489 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,130 criticize it for not being broad enough, 490 00:33:09,130 --> 00:33:13,870 saying that the adaptive water management system needs 491 00:33:13,870 --> 00:33:20,620 to replace or augment the IWRM, because that is moving toward 492 00:33:20,620 --> 00:33:24,880 that can we not only create water management, 493 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,680 but can we make sure that this water management system is also 494 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,720 going to be adaptable to the future. 495 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,750 Because we have to assume that it's not constant. 496 00:33:34,750 --> 00:33:40,090 When we look at these extreme weather patterns, or changes 497 00:33:40,090 --> 00:33:46,780 in the nature of a conflict, some of these IWRM management 498 00:33:46,780 --> 00:33:50,980 scenarios are just not actively trying 499 00:33:50,980 --> 00:33:54,215 to adapt and become better to adjust to these changes. 500 00:33:54,215 --> 00:33:55,840 So in a lot of ways, people are saying, 501 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,710 oh, the IWRM is not enough. 502 00:33:57,710 --> 00:33:58,720 What about the Nexus? 503 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,690 What about this adaptive water management system? 504 00:34:02,690 --> 00:34:04,720 And so in my memo, I talked a lot 505 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,360 about how I think one of the readings 506 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,125 tried to analyze whether or not you could replace the IWRM. 507 00:34:12,125 --> 00:34:13,750 And I thought it was really interesting 508 00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:17,739 that they touched on the social value of the IWRM. 509 00:34:17,739 --> 00:34:19,840 It's taken a long time to be adopted, 510 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:25,810 because a lot of the water policy water diplomacy sector 511 00:34:25,810 --> 00:34:30,969 is like, if well-respected water diplomats use a certain water 512 00:34:30,969 --> 00:34:33,070 management system, then it's more 513 00:34:33,070 --> 00:34:35,920 likely to be used somewhere else, not just 514 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,280 I guess how some business models or other sectors 515 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,770 might transfer a certain system. 516 00:34:41,770 --> 00:34:46,810 So I just think that the IWRM's value, 517 00:34:46,810 --> 00:34:49,780 the fact that it is water-centric is, I think, 518 00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:52,900 very like a strength of the IWRM. 519 00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:55,659 And then the fact that in the Nexus water 520 00:34:55,659 --> 00:35:00,580 is not considered more valuable or important than these other 521 00:35:00,580 --> 00:35:03,490 sectors that you're considering in the Nexus, 522 00:35:03,490 --> 00:35:05,650 whether or not it's the Food Water Energy 523 00:35:05,650 --> 00:35:09,280 Nexus, where every sector needs to be treated equally. 524 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,010 I think the fact that the IWRM puts 525 00:35:12,010 --> 00:35:16,450 the water as the most important entity, 526 00:35:16,450 --> 00:35:19,390 even though it is maybe creating some boundaries 527 00:35:19,390 --> 00:35:22,780 that the Nexus wants to get rid of, 528 00:35:22,780 --> 00:35:24,310 I think is still really valuable. 529 00:35:24,310 --> 00:35:30,670 Because if you get too broad, it's hard to make any progress. 530 00:35:30,670 --> 00:35:33,908 But maybe I've misinterpreted. 531 00:35:33,908 --> 00:35:34,450 I don't know. 532 00:35:34,450 --> 00:35:37,090 It seems the future needs to be more 533 00:35:37,090 --> 00:35:40,090 understanding, and expansive, and multicentric. 534 00:35:40,090 --> 00:35:42,760 But also, how do we make progress 535 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,670 if we can't get all those people to sit at the table 536 00:35:45,670 --> 00:35:47,635 and make an agreement in any regard? 537 00:35:49,725 --> 00:35:50,350 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 538 00:35:50,350 --> 00:35:56,360 I think in terms of theoretical aspect, of course, 539 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,390 the IWRM is very interesting. 540 00:35:58,390 --> 00:36:02,950 But in terms of practice, this is the main limitations, that 541 00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:07,450 to implement this theoretical framework in practice, 542 00:36:07,450 --> 00:36:09,580 this is highly criticized. 543 00:36:09,580 --> 00:36:20,620 And this implementation through following the actual process 544 00:36:20,620 --> 00:36:22,150 of the framework-- 545 00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:29,830 I haven't seen any studies that really went through the IWRM 546 00:36:29,830 --> 00:36:31,520 implementation. 547 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,120 So that is the main challenging thing 548 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:39,640 that the implementation of IWRM is very difficult, 549 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:45,730 and it's one of the unachieved goal of the IWRM. 550 00:36:45,730 --> 00:36:47,800 That's the main criticism. 551 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,950 But in terms of the theoretical contribution that 552 00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:55,630 has been done, is I think is highly valuable at the broader 553 00:36:55,630 --> 00:36:56,440 level. 554 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:03,730 But for implementing, it is kind of some kind of implementation 555 00:37:03,730 --> 00:37:05,380 oriented approach. 556 00:37:05,380 --> 00:37:06,820 That's how I see. 557 00:37:09,970 --> 00:37:11,410 Any thought around-- 558 00:37:11,410 --> 00:37:13,840 AUDIENCE: In practice, I mean I guess, 559 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,060 in practice I guess you would hope 560 00:37:16,060 --> 00:37:20,513 that negotiators would have enough or be 561 00:37:20,513 --> 00:37:21,430 able to bring enough-- 562 00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:23,650 I mean, this is obviously very dependent on what 563 00:37:23,650 --> 00:37:25,330 the kind of initiating circumstances 564 00:37:25,330 --> 00:37:28,870 are of any negotiation-- but have enough flexibility 565 00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:38,200 to draw upon various frameworks as needed and as 566 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,170 beneficial to a specific dispute, 567 00:37:41,170 --> 00:37:46,060 whether or not they call it IWRM or not. 568 00:37:49,390 --> 00:37:52,990 The limitations of the IWRM whether it's in terms of scale 569 00:37:52,990 --> 00:37:56,530 or in terms of what's not included because of its water 570 00:37:56,530 --> 00:37:59,880 centric focus can be supplemented by drawing off 571 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,660 of some of the other Nexus approaches 572 00:38:02,660 --> 00:38:06,400 as the others have said already, that if you 573 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,930 are in the process of negotiating a dispute, 574 00:38:08,930 --> 00:38:14,820 you ideally should be able to pick and choose to an extent. 575 00:38:14,820 --> 00:38:17,700 And not be totally didactic about how 576 00:38:17,700 --> 00:38:20,690 you apply these frameworks. 577 00:38:20,690 --> 00:38:23,403 But I guess, I don't know how you analyze it then 578 00:38:23,403 --> 00:38:25,070 if you're looking at it so holistically. 579 00:38:25,070 --> 00:38:29,810 But it's hard for me to imagine any one framework 580 00:38:29,810 --> 00:38:32,840 being able to wholly encompass all 581 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:37,460 of the possibilities of a water dispute. 582 00:38:37,460 --> 00:38:38,960 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I think starting 583 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:44,630 with a dispute is going to get you into a corner you 584 00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:46,910 don't need to be in. 585 00:38:46,910 --> 00:38:51,650 Start with the fact that you need to manage water. 586 00:38:51,650 --> 00:38:52,650 There's not a dispute. 587 00:38:52,650 --> 00:38:56,000 You just have water, and you have competing demands, 588 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,470 and you have competing interests, 589 00:38:57,470 --> 00:39:00,030 and you have to manage the water. 590 00:39:00,030 --> 00:39:00,990 OK. 591 00:39:00,990 --> 00:39:06,750 What would be a good way to manage the water? 592 00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:13,800 To involve entities with broad authority or multiple 593 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,650 authorities, or narrow-- 594 00:39:16,650 --> 00:39:24,190 just water, to involve only the most expert 595 00:39:24,190 --> 00:39:29,590 people to make the decisions, or to engage the stakeholders 596 00:39:29,590 --> 00:39:32,770 affected by the decisions so there's 597 00:39:32,770 --> 00:39:38,390 support for whatever the decision is to go ahead with. 598 00:39:38,390 --> 00:39:43,370 Would it make more sense to look just narrowly at the water 599 00:39:43,370 --> 00:39:45,770 that you have responsibility for, 600 00:39:45,770 --> 00:39:48,230 because you're within a political boundary, 601 00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:52,340 or would it make more sense to look at the water system moving 602 00:39:52,340 --> 00:39:56,300 underground or above ground that affects the water that you 603 00:39:56,300 --> 00:39:58,900 have responsibility for? 604 00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:03,550 Because the answers to those three kinds of questions 605 00:40:03,550 --> 00:40:07,600 almost always lead to people saying, 606 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,690 broader, linked, more comprehensive, 607 00:40:11,690 --> 00:40:14,380 more participatory, more completely 608 00:40:14,380 --> 00:40:19,450 engaged, because it seems like a better way to manage water. 609 00:40:19,450 --> 00:40:25,180 Now, assume there's a dispute within that water management 610 00:40:25,180 --> 00:40:26,900 system. 611 00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:31,170 How would you expect it to be resolved? 612 00:40:31,170 --> 00:40:37,020 Well, if you had pulled in all of those actors, 613 00:40:37,020 --> 00:40:40,470 and all of those interests, and all of that knowledge, 614 00:40:40,470 --> 00:40:43,740 and all of that authority to manage the water, 615 00:40:43,740 --> 00:40:47,130 and there was a dispute within that, 616 00:40:47,130 --> 00:40:51,510 you'd probably have to engage all of those same elements 617 00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:54,720 in sorting out a dispute that emerged. 618 00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:59,030 It would be hard to say, oh, there's a dispute. 619 00:40:59,030 --> 00:41:02,210 Now all of you who were involved in the planning of this 620 00:41:02,210 --> 00:41:04,310 and the management of this, go away. 621 00:41:04,310 --> 00:41:07,280 And the three of us will solve this. 622 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,130 It's not going to happen. 623 00:41:09,130 --> 00:41:14,480 So IWRM isn't a dispute resolution mechanism. 624 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,770 IWRM is an approach to water management. 625 00:41:18,770 --> 00:41:22,520 And when disputes come up, it's all 626 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:28,680 tangled up in the dispute resolution process 627 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:33,690 because of what it took to do IWRM 628 00:41:33,690 --> 00:41:39,210 as the planning-- as the management scheme. 629 00:41:39,210 --> 00:41:42,840 It was never meant to be a dispute resolution 630 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,330 strategy or mechanism. 631 00:41:45,330 --> 00:41:49,680 But it's tangled up with efforts at dispute resolution. 632 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,700 Because it's kind of hard to shrink any of the dimensions-- 633 00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:56,790 the parties, the interest, the scope of the problem, 634 00:41:56,790 --> 00:41:58,680 the institutional powers-- 635 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:00,780 for purposes of resolving a dispute 636 00:42:00,780 --> 00:42:06,690 that's come up within the IWRM process. 637 00:42:06,690 --> 00:42:10,500 AUDIENCE: Within models, I mean, could you differentiate and say 638 00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:13,800 the initial-- 639 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,940 as you said, anyone who thinks through the three questions you 640 00:42:17,940 --> 00:42:22,320 asked is going to move out and say, broader, more inclusive, 641 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:23,670 greater scope for this. 642 00:42:23,670 --> 00:42:25,980 Could you differentiate and say, OK, 643 00:42:25,980 --> 00:42:30,090 the initial water management considered 644 00:42:30,090 --> 00:42:36,330 negotiations will exist on this macro level 645 00:42:36,330 --> 00:42:40,410 and incorporate many different facets of the economy 646 00:42:40,410 --> 00:42:43,950 and secondary, tertiary effects of water management. 647 00:42:43,950 --> 00:42:47,760 But then you say after that, you basically incorporate 648 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,830 dispute resolution processes that 649 00:42:49,830 --> 00:42:55,050 are hyper-local, that are specific to the area where 650 00:42:55,050 --> 00:42:57,480 the resolution-- where the dispute is taking 651 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,920 place, and don't require completely remapping 652 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,517 all of the old terrain? 653 00:43:04,517 --> 00:43:06,100 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: That historically, 654 00:43:06,100 --> 00:43:12,180 that's what the law and regulation have in fact done. 655 00:43:12,180 --> 00:43:14,310 AUDIENCE: Gotcha. 656 00:43:14,310 --> 00:43:18,660 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: We have a system of water rights 657 00:43:18,660 --> 00:43:22,500 that has nothing to do with IWRM. 658 00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:26,830 Just take California or take the Western United States. 659 00:43:26,830 --> 00:43:31,080 IWRM, you would plan that water in a certain way. 660 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:36,800 But you can't in a system that's defined senior water 661 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,360 rights, where people who got there first got the water. 662 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,910 And nobody can tell them what to do with it. 663 00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:47,060 And they can waste it, they can do anything they want. 664 00:43:47,060 --> 00:43:52,400 It's completely contrary to the ideas of IWRM. 665 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,950 And until relatively recently, the whole water law 666 00:43:57,950 --> 00:44:02,480 around the world is not connected to water management. 667 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,910 The rules of water law come down almost in the way, Aaron, 668 00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:08,930 you're describing. 669 00:44:08,930 --> 00:44:13,310 Just how can I localize this, and situate it in the way 670 00:44:13,310 --> 00:44:15,590 we deal with other property rights, 671 00:44:15,590 --> 00:44:18,660 and that's how we'll handle the dispute. 672 00:44:18,660 --> 00:44:23,410 But it doesn't fit with what we imagine 673 00:44:23,410 --> 00:44:25,780 is the broader scope, and the need 674 00:44:25,780 --> 00:44:27,550 to take account of more interests, 675 00:44:27,550 --> 00:44:30,790 and the desire to look at the interconnectedness of things, 676 00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:32,360 and the need to look ahead-- 677 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,990 not back at who had what rights, but forward 678 00:44:34,990 --> 00:44:37,420 in terms of who has what needs. 679 00:44:37,420 --> 00:44:40,630 And yet we're stuck with it. 680 00:44:40,630 --> 00:44:46,710 So again, IWRM is a water management approach. 681 00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:51,070 It's easy to see how it evolved. 682 00:44:51,070 --> 00:44:55,430 And it seems perfectly logical. 683 00:44:55,430 --> 00:45:00,740 And it doesn't offer an obvious or easy way 684 00:45:00,740 --> 00:45:05,330 of handling disputes over water within systems 685 00:45:05,330 --> 00:45:07,970 that are managed by IWRM. 686 00:45:07,970 --> 00:45:12,110 And if you just try to solve this water disputes 687 00:45:12,110 --> 00:45:15,620 in a purely legal fashion that determines 688 00:45:15,620 --> 00:45:18,860 who has what senior rights, and hey, that's it. 689 00:45:18,860 --> 00:45:21,200 It's property. 690 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,030 But that doesn't take account of water 691 00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:28,040 as a shared human resource or as a human right. 692 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,110 And now, how do we solve disputes 693 00:45:30,110 --> 00:45:31,460 over the allocation of water? 694 00:45:31,460 --> 00:45:36,452 We can't use the property rights law. 695 00:45:36,452 --> 00:45:37,410 We need something else. 696 00:45:40,835 --> 00:45:42,210 AUDIENCE: Yeah, that makes sense. 697 00:45:44,228 --> 00:45:46,020 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: And Animesh, how do you 698 00:45:46,020 --> 00:45:48,550 react to what I just said? 699 00:45:48,550 --> 00:45:52,380 DR. GAIN: Yeah, so in terms of relation with IWRM and water 700 00:45:52,380 --> 00:45:57,030 diplomacy, I see that IWRM says, according 701 00:45:57,030 --> 00:46:01,110 to IWRM principal or dimensions, water 702 00:46:01,110 --> 00:46:05,670 should be managed in a transboundary, or watershed, 703 00:46:05,670 --> 00:46:09,000 or ecological boundary. 704 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,150 So in that case, I can see the relation 705 00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:14,850 with IWRM and water diplomacy. 706 00:46:14,850 --> 00:46:19,020 Because when I say that water should 707 00:46:19,020 --> 00:46:22,660 be managed in a watershed or transboundary scale, 708 00:46:22,660 --> 00:46:32,840 that means it definitely crosses boundary of ecological boundary 709 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,360 with the political boundary. 710 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,680 And it can immediately creates institutional mismatches. 711 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:45,855 And that can be managed through a-- a water diplomacy approach. 712 00:46:45,855 --> 00:46:49,760 So there's how I can see a relation with IWRM. 713 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,130 So I can see water diplomacy can be 714 00:46:52,130 --> 00:46:59,810 useful for the difficulties that have IWRM implementation can be 715 00:46:59,810 --> 00:47:04,835 somehow implemented through incorporating water diplomacy 716 00:47:04,835 --> 00:47:05,800 approach. 717 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:11,757 That's how I feel the relation of IWRM and water diplomacy. 718 00:47:11,757 --> 00:47:14,090 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Do you want to go to your next slide 719 00:47:14,090 --> 00:47:18,050 and look at the principles of IWRM 720 00:47:18,050 --> 00:47:20,575 explicitly in light of the general discussion we've had? 721 00:47:20,575 --> 00:47:21,200 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 722 00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:31,190 So these are just a historical perspective of IWRM. 723 00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:35,930 So according to-- so it is started from the UN conference 724 00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:39,740 on water in Mar del Plata in 1977. 725 00:47:39,740 --> 00:47:44,300 Then in 1992, Dublin conference, which 726 00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:49,820 is the main building block for developing the IWRM principles. 727 00:47:49,820 --> 00:47:54,710 And in this conference, these four principles 728 00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:56,850 has been considered. 729 00:47:56,850 --> 00:48:00,560 So the principle number one is the freshwater 730 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,520 is finite and vulnerable resources 731 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,090 essential to sustain life, development, 732 00:48:08,090 --> 00:48:09,300 and the environment. 733 00:48:09,300 --> 00:48:12,890 So here you can compare the thinking 734 00:48:12,890 --> 00:48:14,330 of the water diplomacy. 735 00:48:14,330 --> 00:48:21,440 So it's completely opposite of the thinking of the Dublin 736 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,730 principle or water diplomacy framework considered 737 00:48:25,730 --> 00:48:28,940 water is the flexible resource instead 738 00:48:28,940 --> 00:48:34,330 of finite and vulnerable resource. 739 00:48:34,330 --> 00:48:37,550 So how the conflicting situation can 740 00:48:37,550 --> 00:48:43,790 be considered as the cooperative thinking 741 00:48:43,790 --> 00:48:48,510 that can be a major shift of thinking in terms of principles 742 00:48:48,510 --> 00:48:51,950 of IWRM and water diplomacy. 743 00:48:51,950 --> 00:48:55,430 So in terms of principle number two, 744 00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:57,590 water diplomacy and management should 745 00:48:57,590 --> 00:49:00,920 be based on a participatory approach involving 746 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:06,950 users, planners, and policymakers at all levels. 747 00:49:06,950 --> 00:49:09,260 And another important principle is 748 00:49:09,260 --> 00:49:15,350 that women should be a part of the decision-making process, 749 00:49:15,350 --> 00:49:19,580 like prohibition, management, and safeguarding of water. 750 00:49:19,580 --> 00:49:23,510 Specifically considering the role of women 751 00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:28,550 in the developing country, how they are closely involved 752 00:49:28,550 --> 00:49:34,220 with the water resource management and services 753 00:49:34,220 --> 00:49:36,460 of the water resources. 754 00:49:36,460 --> 00:49:38,890 And the fourth and final principle 755 00:49:38,890 --> 00:49:47,230 is that water has an economic value in all its components-- 756 00:49:47,230 --> 00:49:51,540 recognized as an economic resource. 757 00:49:51,540 --> 00:49:59,080 So these are the four principles of Dublin conference in 1992. 758 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:05,290 And then another event where IWRM was first established 759 00:50:05,290 --> 00:50:10,240 is Second World Water Forum and Ministerial Conference 760 00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:15,010 in The Hague, where it's considered that equity 761 00:50:15,010 --> 00:50:21,160 criteria along with subsidiary-- um, subsidies to poor. 762 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:27,070 This is also considered as a principle of IWRM. 763 00:50:27,070 --> 00:50:30,910 And then it is declared in the International Conference 764 00:50:30,910 --> 00:50:35,290 on Freshwater in Bonn, 2001. 765 00:50:35,290 --> 00:50:39,310 And then World Summit on Sustainable Development 766 00:50:39,310 --> 00:50:43,270 in 2002. 767 00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:48,250 So now, based on these principles, 768 00:50:48,250 --> 00:50:52,030 IWRM has been, as you can see from the global water 769 00:50:52,030 --> 00:50:56,590 partnership definition that IWRM is considered 770 00:50:56,590 --> 00:51:04,120 as a process which promotes the coordinated development 771 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:11,240 and management of water, land, and related resources, 772 00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:16,070 in order to maximize the resultant economic and social 773 00:51:16,070 --> 00:51:21,050 welfare in an equitable manner, and without compromising 774 00:51:21,050 --> 00:51:24,870 the sustainability of the vital ecosystems. 775 00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:28,850 So it incorporates theoretically multiple aspects, 776 00:51:28,850 --> 00:51:32,690 like it is considered as a planning process, 777 00:51:32,690 --> 00:51:37,400 as Larry already mentioned, and it incorporates 778 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,420 the coordinated development, like TVA kind 779 00:51:41,420 --> 00:51:45,800 of development pattern, which incorporates not only water 780 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:51,620 resources, but also water and related resources that 781 00:51:51,620 --> 00:51:56,120 are linked with water can be managed together 782 00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:02,900 for maximizing the economic and social welfare with an equity 783 00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:07,010 basis of considering the sustainability 784 00:52:07,010 --> 00:52:08,610 of the ecosystems. 785 00:52:08,610 --> 00:52:13,310 So that is the broader definition of IWRM. 786 00:52:13,310 --> 00:52:21,310 And probably, you have read in this criticism by Asit Biswas. 787 00:52:21,310 --> 00:52:30,160 And where he mainly criticized the Hague definition 788 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:34,510 of integration, what issues needs to be integrated, 789 00:52:34,510 --> 00:52:37,680 and how it can be a process. 790 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:43,510 And so, in terms of operational point of view, 791 00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:45,580 he identified this vagueness. 792 00:52:45,580 --> 00:52:48,410 And in terms of theory is fine. 793 00:52:48,410 --> 00:52:51,520 But in terms of implementation, how this can 794 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,580 be applied in a given context-- 795 00:52:54,580 --> 00:52:55,630 this is completely vague. 796 00:52:55,630 --> 00:53:02,380 That's what his message is broadly regarding IWRM. 797 00:53:02,380 --> 00:53:08,270 So we tried to identify main dimensions of IWRM. 798 00:53:08,270 --> 00:53:12,910 So these are the [INAUDIBLE] dimensions that in our studies 799 00:53:12,910 --> 00:53:14,680 that we try to identify. 800 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:20,650 So first [INAUDIBLE] dimension is integrated management. 801 00:53:20,650 --> 00:53:26,600 And the second dimension is the river basin or watershed 802 00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:31,290 should be the special skill for managing water resources. 803 00:53:31,290 --> 00:53:38,790 And water governance or institutional mechanism 804 00:53:38,790 --> 00:53:42,660 for governing water is very important. 805 00:53:42,660 --> 00:53:47,670 And involving a stakeholders and public participation 806 00:53:47,670 --> 00:53:51,750 is also one of the key dimensions of IWRM. 807 00:53:51,750 --> 00:53:56,340 And consideration of water as an economic good 808 00:53:56,340 --> 00:54:02,370 is an important consideration of IWRM. 809 00:54:02,370 --> 00:54:12,030 And also ensuring gender equity and social capital 810 00:54:12,030 --> 00:54:14,860 is one of the main dimensions. 811 00:54:14,860 --> 00:54:18,570 So these are the seven dimensions of the IWRM. 812 00:54:18,570 --> 00:54:24,600 And here I can see as I was mentioning, that river 813 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:26,980 basin as a spatial scale. 814 00:54:26,980 --> 00:54:33,000 And to implement this river basin 815 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,690 for water resources management, it certainly creates conflict. 816 00:54:36,690 --> 00:54:38,790 And for managing that, water diplomacy 817 00:54:38,790 --> 00:54:46,410 can play an important role for managing water resources. 818 00:54:46,410 --> 00:54:49,920 For integrated management, there are criticisms 819 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:51,910 that needs to be integrated. 820 00:54:51,910 --> 00:54:59,500 And that also depends on the specific context. 821 00:54:59,500 --> 00:55:04,000 And a specific context by engaging stakeholders 822 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,570 what issues needs to be integrated can be decided 823 00:55:07,570 --> 00:55:16,360 and can be considered in a negotiation table that 824 00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:20,560 can be part of the implementation part of IWRM 825 00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:24,110 through a water diplomacy approach. 826 00:55:24,110 --> 00:55:29,590 So that's how I consider that for implementing IWRM-- 827 00:55:29,590 --> 00:55:34,940 the criticism that has in the literature. 828 00:55:34,940 --> 00:55:40,150 Some of the criticism can be overcome when we consider 829 00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:41,770 the water diplomacy approach. 830 00:55:41,770 --> 00:55:43,180 That's just how I see. 831 00:55:43,180 --> 00:55:44,414 I don't know. 832 00:55:44,414 --> 00:55:46,750 Larry, what would be your opinion 833 00:55:46,750 --> 00:55:50,080 on the linkage between IWRM and water diplomacy? 834 00:55:53,580 --> 00:55:56,610 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Well, I thought your description 835 00:55:56,610 --> 00:55:58,540 was very reasonable. 836 00:56:02,070 --> 00:56:05,430 I start with the problems in practice. 837 00:56:05,430 --> 00:56:09,090 And maybe that's why I'm less tolerant of some 838 00:56:09,090 --> 00:56:15,840 of the fuzziness and some of the ambiguity in IWRM the way 839 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:20,460 it's been written about and the way it emerged. 840 00:56:20,460 --> 00:56:24,360 I mean, calling water an economic good leads 841 00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:28,300 to the notion that you should get the prices right 842 00:56:28,300 --> 00:56:31,270 if you want to protect the environment, 843 00:56:31,270 --> 00:56:34,010 if you want to protect the water. 844 00:56:34,010 --> 00:56:38,420 But as soon as you start talking about getting the prices right, 845 00:56:38,420 --> 00:56:41,510 you're assuming water is a commodity. 846 00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:44,720 And if you think water should be a right, 847 00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:47,330 then the price is not relevant. 848 00:56:47,330 --> 00:56:52,160 And thinking of it as an economic good is not helpful. 849 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,340 And some of you know I'm working on the problem of water 850 00:56:55,340 --> 00:56:59,120 shutoffs in American cities, where 851 00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,480 people who can't pay their bill for their water 852 00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,570 for a month or two have their water shut off. 853 00:57:08,260 --> 00:57:12,380 Well, they can't pay their bill because they're out of work. 854 00:57:12,380 --> 00:57:14,870 And telling them they have to pay their bill 855 00:57:14,870 --> 00:57:19,010 isn't going to make it possible for them to pay their bill. 856 00:57:19,010 --> 00:57:21,860 And then the next thing that the water department does 857 00:57:21,860 --> 00:57:24,680 is it calls the Family Services department 858 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,110 and says, take the children out of that home. 859 00:57:27,110 --> 00:57:28,190 There's no water there. 860 00:57:28,190 --> 00:57:30,000 It's not hygienic. 861 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,300 So their kids are taken away. 862 00:57:32,300 --> 00:57:35,900 They still can't pay the bill. 863 00:57:35,900 --> 00:57:38,690 And then the next thing that happens is the city puts-- 864 00:57:38,690 --> 00:57:42,860 sells the lien-- it's an economic instrument 865 00:57:42,860 --> 00:57:45,300 on the debt-- 866 00:57:45,300 --> 00:57:47,340 because the city needs money to pay 867 00:57:47,340 --> 00:57:48,900 to maintain the water system. 868 00:57:48,900 --> 00:57:50,400 And if people don't pay their bills, 869 00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:51,483 it doesn't have the money. 870 00:57:51,483 --> 00:57:52,860 It can't maintain the system. 871 00:57:52,860 --> 00:57:59,120 So it sells the debt to private moneylenders, who 872 00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:04,170 then come after the person on a daily basis and saying, 873 00:58:04,170 --> 00:58:08,780 not only do you owe us the $900 from the last four months, now 874 00:58:08,780 --> 00:58:10,310 the interest rate-- and we've just 875 00:58:10,310 --> 00:58:13,130 increased it to 10% interest. 876 00:58:13,130 --> 00:58:16,810 They can't pay the debt, they can't pay the interest. 877 00:58:16,810 --> 00:58:19,230 And then after a year the city says, 878 00:58:19,230 --> 00:58:26,480 we're going to sell your house to recoup the mounting debt. 879 00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,410 We have all kinds of cities in the United States 880 00:58:30,410 --> 00:58:36,290 where the water authority sells liens and forecloses on homes, 881 00:58:36,290 --> 00:58:40,760 all because people couldn't pay the fee for water 882 00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:43,620 because they lost their job. 883 00:58:43,620 --> 00:58:48,870 Now, we have laws that don't allow the electricity company 884 00:58:48,870 --> 00:58:50,910 to turn off electricity in the winter 885 00:58:50,910 --> 00:58:53,490 if you can't pay your bill, because the presumption 886 00:58:53,490 --> 00:58:54,255 is you'll die. 887 00:58:56,990 --> 00:58:59,450 But we don't have comparable laws 888 00:58:59,450 --> 00:59:02,450 that say you can't shut off people's water. 889 00:59:02,450 --> 00:59:06,780 Now during COVID, very interestingly, 890 00:59:06,780 --> 00:59:13,070 we have had a moratorium on water shutoffs in some cities. 891 00:59:13,070 --> 00:59:15,920 Because now the presumption is, people 892 00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,520 have a good excuse for being unable to pay their bills. 893 00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,910 But before somehow, they didn't have an excuse, 894 00:59:22,910 --> 00:59:26,260 like they lost their job. 895 00:59:26,260 --> 00:59:28,390 This is all a function of thinking 896 00:59:28,390 --> 00:59:32,350 of water as an economic good. 897 00:59:32,350 --> 00:59:36,700 What if we said, every residential property 898 00:59:36,700 --> 00:59:38,800 gets a certain minimum amount of water 899 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:43,330 that you need to stay alive that doesn't cost anything. 900 00:59:43,330 --> 00:59:46,600 And then all the water above that, 901 00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,615 you pay a price relative to your ability to pay. 902 00:59:52,860 --> 00:59:55,230 Well, we never had in the United States 903 00:59:55,230 --> 01:00:00,060 a system of water fees based on ability to pay until last year 904 01:00:00,060 --> 01:00:04,690 when Philadelphia passed the first municipal law saying 905 01:00:04,690 --> 01:00:07,630 that they wanted to move in a different direction 906 01:00:07,630 --> 01:00:11,710 and have people pay for some portion of their water 907 01:00:11,710 --> 01:00:14,380 relative to their ability to pay. 908 01:00:14,380 --> 01:00:19,300 And you can imagine the legal battle that's now ongoing about 909 01:00:19,300 --> 01:00:21,610 whether that's OK or not. 910 01:00:21,610 --> 01:00:27,400 But all of that stems from the idea that water is a commodity, 911 01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,170 and we should have to buy and sell it. 912 01:00:31,170 --> 01:00:37,290 In Australia, when it saw that it was running out of water-- 913 01:00:37,290 --> 01:00:39,960 fresh water, and had all terrible forest fires 914 01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,930 and other difficulties-- 915 01:00:42,930 --> 01:00:48,990 bought as a government all the water rights in one state 916 01:00:48,990 --> 01:00:56,620 back from the owners at a prevailing price per hectare. 917 01:00:56,620 --> 01:01:01,180 And then it paid back the money by selling back the water 918 01:01:01,180 --> 01:01:05,690 rights but on a different basis to people 919 01:01:05,690 --> 01:01:10,680 to try to have greater equity in the availability of water. 920 01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:18,000 So it built a whole system based on water as an economic good 921 01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:22,050 in order to address a common need. 922 01:01:22,050 --> 01:01:24,750 Where if we thought of water as a natural resource 923 01:01:24,750 --> 01:01:30,065 and as a common resource, pricing wouldn't be the focus. 924 01:01:33,930 --> 01:01:36,210 And we've tried to make a market out 925 01:01:36,210 --> 01:01:40,230 of everything in the Western capitalist countries. 926 01:01:40,230 --> 01:01:43,080 And so now we have problems of water 927 01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:48,270 being unavailable to different groups of people. 928 01:01:48,270 --> 01:01:54,050 And I worry that IWRM is about maximizing water 929 01:01:54,050 --> 01:01:56,750 as an economic good. 930 01:01:56,750 --> 01:01:59,150 That's one of the seven principles 931 01:01:59,150 --> 01:02:02,450 or whatever that you had listed-- 932 01:02:02,450 --> 01:02:06,460 water is an economic good. 933 01:02:06,460 --> 01:02:09,900 And there are several of the principles 934 01:02:09,900 --> 01:02:13,650 I understand completely where they came from. 935 01:02:13,650 --> 01:02:16,370 But when I look in practice, the problem 936 01:02:16,370 --> 01:02:20,450 is we have underinvestment in the capital 937 01:02:20,450 --> 01:02:26,280 improvements necessary to get water to people that need it. 938 01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:29,720 And there's not a way to solve that through integrated water 939 01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:31,070 resource management. 940 01:02:31,070 --> 01:02:38,430 That's a political, ethical, moral decision. 941 01:02:38,430 --> 01:02:41,700 So a lot of the conflicts, some of which 942 01:02:41,700 --> 01:02:46,080 don't rise to the level of a formal conflict 943 01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,380 because the poor, the disadvantaged, the marginalized 944 01:02:49,380 --> 01:02:53,250 don't have the political clout to make it a fight. 945 01:02:53,250 --> 01:02:57,840 But in fact, there's a conflict with very large numbers 946 01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:00,090 of people in different parts of the world 947 01:03:00,090 --> 01:03:03,180 unable to get adequate water, because there's no way 948 01:03:03,180 --> 01:03:08,130 to pay the capital cost to build the desalination plant, 949 01:03:08,130 --> 01:03:11,880 to build the water movement system to get water 950 01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:14,200 from one place to another. 951 01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:20,910 So that's what I worry about IWRM causing conflict and not 952 01:03:20,910 --> 01:03:24,330 providing a pathway to resolution 953 01:03:24,330 --> 01:03:28,956 of conflicts given some of the principles it includes. 954 01:03:28,956 --> 01:03:31,150 HUSNAIN AFZAL: Yeah. 955 01:03:31,150 --> 01:03:35,110 I had a different perspective to what you just said. 956 01:03:35,110 --> 01:03:40,390 For example, if a poor person in my country 957 01:03:40,390 --> 01:03:43,210 doesn't have access to clean water, 958 01:03:43,210 --> 01:03:45,880 he's installing a hand pump or something 959 01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:47,950 at the cost of $1,000 or something, 960 01:03:47,950 --> 01:03:51,670 it's an additional burden to his daily income. 961 01:03:51,670 --> 01:03:55,660 What if the state would have provided him a water supply 962 01:03:55,660 --> 01:03:59,830 network with a certain pricing, and the state 963 01:03:59,830 --> 01:04:02,680 had ensured that that water was clean enough to drink? 964 01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:07,030 For example, I in Pakistan can't drink water directly from tap. 965 01:04:07,030 --> 01:04:09,970 I'm not sure about drinking water directly from the tap. 966 01:04:09,970 --> 01:04:13,600 But here in my residence in Ithaca, 967 01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:15,400 I drink water directly from the tap. 968 01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:20,710 So by this, I'm saving money from the bottled water, 969 01:04:20,710 --> 01:04:22,780 and then I'm saving money for installing 970 01:04:22,780 --> 01:04:25,580 my own boiling system or pumping system. 971 01:04:25,580 --> 01:04:27,950 So if the state provided me with clean water 972 01:04:27,950 --> 01:04:29,950 with certain price in which they are maintaining 973 01:04:29,950 --> 01:04:32,690 the infrastructure, which is lesser than the amount 974 01:04:32,690 --> 01:04:35,530 which I am spending back home on bottled water 975 01:04:35,530 --> 01:04:40,780 and boiling water cost, like [INAUDIBLE] or something 976 01:04:40,780 --> 01:04:44,800 like that, then don't you think that the approach would 977 01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,380 be much better-- the water pricing approach would 978 01:04:47,380 --> 01:04:48,640 be better in this scenario? 979 01:04:54,310 --> 01:04:56,590 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: You're paying rent in Ithaca 980 01:04:56,590 --> 01:04:58,330 that includes water cost. 981 01:05:00,970 --> 01:05:03,970 And if you lived in Flint, Michigan, 982 01:05:03,970 --> 01:05:09,610 you would be paying not that much different rent, 983 01:05:09,610 --> 01:05:12,700 but you couldn't drink the water from the tap, 984 01:05:12,700 --> 01:05:17,110 because it's been allowed to become contaminated. 985 01:05:17,110 --> 01:05:18,970 And the city doesn't have the resources 986 01:05:18,970 --> 01:05:21,380 to rebuild the whole system. 987 01:05:21,380 --> 01:05:24,280 So we've pushed on to individuals 988 01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,130 the cost of getting water in some cities 989 01:05:27,130 --> 01:05:31,240 whether we've allowed the water to become contaminated. 990 01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:37,840 Maintaining clean water is, I would argue, a common cost 991 01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,480 not an individualized cost. 992 01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:46,720 While you can go buy water in bottles, 993 01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:52,030 we still expect the availability of clean water from the tap-- 994 01:05:52,030 --> 01:05:55,180 drinkable water that won't kill you-- 995 01:05:55,180 --> 01:05:57,670 to be a common cost. 996 01:05:57,670 --> 01:06:01,720 If it's a common cost, then we should collect taxes 997 01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:04,450 from everybody in a progressive way 998 01:06:04,450 --> 01:06:08,800 and take care of building the things that are common, 999 01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,930 like clean water system. 1000 01:06:12,930 --> 01:06:14,400 So I know-- 1001 01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,650 I heard the comparison you're making. 1002 01:06:17,650 --> 01:06:21,630 But I would argue both in Pakistan and in the United 1003 01:06:21,630 --> 01:06:26,130 States, that responsibility of local government 1004 01:06:26,130 --> 01:06:31,790 should be to provide drinkable water for people 1005 01:06:31,790 --> 01:06:35,750 as a capital cost that's a collective cost. 1006 01:06:35,750 --> 01:06:39,960 And whether that cost is paid for from taxes, 1007 01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:42,950 which could be collected in a progressive way, 1008 01:06:42,950 --> 01:06:47,090 or fees, which typically are not collected 1009 01:06:47,090 --> 01:06:48,920 in a progressive way-- 1010 01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:52,430 they don't look at ability to pay-- 1011 01:06:52,430 --> 01:06:55,370 I think we can have that debate about what's the fair way 1012 01:06:55,370 --> 01:06:56,600 to collect the money. 1013 01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:58,430 But once the money is collected, it 1014 01:06:58,430 --> 01:07:02,180 should be used to get everybody a minimum amount 1015 01:07:02,180 --> 01:07:03,710 of clean water. 1016 01:07:03,710 --> 01:07:04,520 That's my argument. 1017 01:07:07,465 --> 01:07:08,090 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 1018 01:07:08,090 --> 01:07:11,670 And I think that also fits with the IWRM principle 1019 01:07:11,670 --> 01:07:15,155 like social equity and yeah. 1020 01:07:15,155 --> 01:07:15,655 So-- 1021 01:07:15,655 --> 01:07:17,197 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Well, basically-- 1022 01:07:17,197 --> 01:07:19,860 HUSNAIN AFZAL: And to add to your point, that I mean, 1023 01:07:19,860 --> 01:07:22,080 if IWRM is a collective approach, 1024 01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:23,950 it's not about governments only. 1025 01:07:23,950 --> 01:07:27,450 It's about people also-- society, societal education. 1026 01:07:27,450 --> 01:07:29,460 For example, if you're doing-- you just 1027 01:07:29,460 --> 01:07:31,320 said-- used the word "contamination." 1028 01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:32,460 Who is doing contamination? 1029 01:07:32,460 --> 01:07:33,585 We are doing contamination. 1030 01:07:33,585 --> 01:07:36,420 We are mixing sewage water with water. 1031 01:07:36,420 --> 01:07:38,580 We are doing water taps. 1032 01:07:38,580 --> 01:07:40,920 We are doing hole to the main water supply line 1033 01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:42,870 to get more water for ourselves. 1034 01:07:42,870 --> 01:07:47,100 That is something related to the societal education. 1035 01:07:47,100 --> 01:07:49,980 If we do not educate people that water should 1036 01:07:49,980 --> 01:07:52,230 be treated as a precious resource, 1037 01:07:52,230 --> 01:07:54,260 that it should not be contaminated, 1038 01:07:54,260 --> 01:07:56,230 it's like a joint responsibility, 1039 01:07:56,230 --> 01:07:58,533 not the responsibility of government only. 1040 01:07:58,533 --> 01:07:59,700 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I agree. 1041 01:07:59,700 --> 01:08:02,220 I agree. 1042 01:08:02,220 --> 01:08:04,030 You'll have to excuse me. 1043 01:08:04,030 --> 01:08:09,060 I'm trying desperately to get the folks planning Glasgow 1044 01:08:09,060 --> 01:08:12,150 to approach the problem in a different way 1045 01:08:12,150 --> 01:08:13,830 than they did in Paris. 1046 01:08:13,830 --> 01:08:17,790 And they have chosen this hour. 1047 01:08:17,790 --> 01:08:20,640 At least I have a chance to talk to them. 1048 01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:22,350 I'm not making any progress. 1049 01:08:22,350 --> 01:08:24,210 This is the third try. 1050 01:08:24,210 --> 01:08:26,970 But I feel obliged-- 1051 01:08:26,970 --> 01:08:30,149 if they just meet in Glasgow and do again 1052 01:08:30,149 --> 01:08:33,240 what they did in Paris, we are doomed. 1053 01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,210 And there has to be a different discussion. 1054 01:08:36,210 --> 01:08:38,370 And there's a group of us who are 1055 01:08:38,370 --> 01:08:41,340 trying to promote a different global discussion 1056 01:08:41,340 --> 01:08:42,750 on this question. 1057 01:08:42,750 --> 01:08:44,670 So I'm going to disappear. 1058 01:08:44,670 --> 01:08:51,149 But the conversation about IWRM is important, 1059 01:08:51,149 --> 01:08:53,760 because you need-- each of you-- 1060 01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:57,899 needs to formulate-- to take a stand, to formulate 1061 01:08:57,899 --> 01:09:02,550 an idea, of how you think water should be managed, 1062 01:09:02,550 --> 01:09:05,640 and how you think disputes over the management of water 1063 01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:07,490 should be resolved. 1064 01:09:07,490 --> 01:09:11,520 And I don't think either Animesh or I 1065 01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:13,229 thinks we know all the answers. 1066 01:09:13,229 --> 01:09:15,240 And I don't think there's only one solution 1067 01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:17,609 for all places and all times. 1068 01:09:17,609 --> 01:09:22,100 But we need to be thinking prescriptively. 1069 01:09:22,100 --> 01:09:28,830 And if the best language we could say is, 1070 01:09:28,830 --> 01:09:31,229 social needs are important. 1071 01:09:31,229 --> 01:09:34,200 Common goods should be taken into account. 1072 01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,380 Water should be managed in a comprehensive fashion. 1073 01:09:37,380 --> 01:09:40,050 Look at the linkage between water and everything else. 1074 01:09:40,050 --> 01:09:45,569 I don't think that inspires action or policy. 1075 01:09:45,569 --> 01:09:47,920 I think it's too vague. 1076 01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:53,200 So I'm pushing you to think in more explicit 1077 01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:55,270 prescriptive terms, and then to be 1078 01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:58,705 able to argue for it-- for that view. 1079 01:09:58,705 --> 01:10:01,080 HUSNAIN AFZAL: And before you leave, can you just tell me 1080 01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:04,000 the questions you are going to address in this meeting? 1081 01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:05,000 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Yes. 1082 01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,760 What should be done before the meeting 1083 01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:10,790 by the people who will be coming to the meeting 1084 01:10:10,790 --> 01:10:14,310 while they can still formulate new policy choices. 1085 01:10:14,310 --> 01:10:17,420 Because once you're at the meeting, all you do 1086 01:10:17,420 --> 01:10:20,150 is argue about the text that's been sent out. 1087 01:10:20,150 --> 01:10:23,840 And every 197 delegations have been sent there 1088 01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:26,880 with very explicit instructions by their country. 1089 01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,700 There's no problem-solving that can happen at the meeting. 1090 01:10:30,700 --> 01:10:33,010 But before the meeting, everyone is busy 1091 01:10:33,010 --> 01:10:38,060 figuring out what they want everybody else to do. 1092 01:10:38,060 --> 01:10:42,560 There's no joint planning beforehand, 1093 01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:45,290 because it can't be done in an official way. 1094 01:10:45,290 --> 01:10:47,630 If it's done in an official way, then everybody's 1095 01:10:47,630 --> 01:10:49,970 there reading the script from their country, 1096 01:10:49,970 --> 01:10:52,160 saying everybody else is responsible, 1097 01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:54,320 this is a problem, that's a problem-- 1098 01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:55,430 nothing can happen. 1099 01:10:55,430 --> 01:10:59,180 So we're trying to get a different kind of conversation 1100 01:10:59,180 --> 01:11:03,710 amongst a substantial number of the people who 1101 01:11:03,710 --> 01:11:06,560 will be at the conference representing 1102 01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:08,750 their countries into conversations 1103 01:11:08,750 --> 01:11:11,730 between now and the summer-- 1104 01:11:11,730 --> 01:11:15,210 not in their official capacity, just 1105 01:11:15,210 --> 01:11:16,740 in terms of problem-solving. 1106 01:11:16,740 --> 01:11:19,830 And not just technical, the others as well. 1107 01:11:19,830 --> 01:11:24,090 But people say, well, how would you decide who participates? 1108 01:11:24,090 --> 01:11:26,100 And my argument is, it doesn't matter. 1109 01:11:26,100 --> 01:11:27,660 They're not going to decide anything. 1110 01:11:27,660 --> 01:11:29,880 They're just going to put forward good proposals. 1111 01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:31,590 Let's just have a diverse group that 1112 01:11:31,590 --> 01:11:36,150 wants to put forward proposals in the collective interest. 1113 01:11:36,150 --> 01:11:37,860 Well, where would you have it? 1114 01:11:37,860 --> 01:11:39,120 When would you have it? 1115 01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:40,470 I said, it doesn't matter. 1116 01:11:40,470 --> 01:11:42,060 We'd do it online. 1117 01:11:42,060 --> 01:11:47,190 We just need to start work on new proposals 1118 01:11:47,190 --> 01:11:48,690 of a different kind. 1119 01:11:48,690 --> 01:11:51,630 And the question that I'm saying that the proposals should 1120 01:11:51,630 --> 01:11:54,110 be about-- 1121 01:11:54,110 --> 01:11:59,580 what help does your country need to get to net zero by 2030? 1122 01:11:59,580 --> 01:12:02,450 Not what's your responsibility for cutting stuff. 1123 01:12:02,450 --> 01:12:10,160 What help do you say you need to get to net zero by 2030? 1124 01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:12,830 And collect that, and look at the differences 1125 01:12:12,830 --> 01:12:15,260 amongst what countries say they want and need. 1126 01:12:15,260 --> 01:12:17,540 And then figure out how different countries 1127 01:12:17,540 --> 01:12:22,340 can help each other work toward that as the goal. 1128 01:12:22,340 --> 01:12:26,040 2030 net zero, that's what we have to aim for. 1129 01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:30,860 But now all we have is how much of the overrun will 1130 01:12:30,860 --> 01:12:34,760 you agree to accept no matter what it costs you. 1131 01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:37,335 And the answer is, you can't make me do it. 1132 01:12:37,335 --> 01:12:39,490 And that's Paris. 1133 01:12:39,490 --> 01:12:42,310 And we're going to get it again in Glasgow. 1134 01:12:42,310 --> 01:12:45,880 So that's the conversation I'm trying to promote. 1135 01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:46,900 Forgive me. 1136 01:12:46,900 --> 01:12:47,530 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 1137 01:12:47,530 --> 01:12:49,730 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I will see you all next week. 1138 01:12:49,730 --> 01:12:56,810 DR. GAIN: [LAUGHS] So Mashroof, you wanted to say something? 1139 01:12:56,810 --> 01:12:59,773 Maybe quickly, because we only have half an hour left. 1140 01:12:59,773 --> 01:13:01,190 MASHROOF HOSSAIN: [INAUDIBLE] that 1141 01:13:01,190 --> 01:13:06,380 is I agree with Larry's argument that there should 1142 01:13:06,380 --> 01:13:10,760 be a minimum amount of water for every household 1143 01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:15,330 or every person, instead of putting them extreme pressure 1144 01:13:15,330 --> 01:13:16,580 through the capitalist system. 1145 01:13:16,580 --> 01:13:18,270 This is I completely agree. 1146 01:13:18,270 --> 01:13:22,940 But at the same time, in my country I've seen, 1147 01:13:22,940 --> 01:13:26,780 and probably you have seen also, that when something is free, 1148 01:13:26,780 --> 01:13:32,030 or whatever the amount that is, when something is free, most 1149 01:13:32,030 --> 01:13:32,820 of the people-- 1150 01:13:32,820 --> 01:13:35,330 and that is I have seen from my observation, 1151 01:13:35,330 --> 01:13:38,810 and I'm sure that the research if anyone does it 1152 01:13:38,810 --> 01:13:41,450 would give the same data-- 1153 01:13:41,450 --> 01:13:46,300 that when something is free, there is a tendency to waste. 1154 01:13:46,300 --> 01:13:52,090 And in Bangladesh or in a developing country, 1155 01:13:52,090 --> 01:13:55,480 a huge number of people-- 1156 01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:58,550 they would be not that rich to afford it. 1157 01:13:58,550 --> 01:14:02,770 So the government would be giving them a massive amount 1158 01:14:02,770 --> 01:14:05,210 of water in total. 1159 01:14:05,210 --> 01:14:08,950 And if everybody wastes just a little, 1160 01:14:08,950 --> 01:14:11,470 or the majority of the people waste just a little, 1161 01:14:11,470 --> 01:14:13,600 that's a huge amount of water being 1162 01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:15,603 wasted, just because it's free. 1163 01:14:15,603 --> 01:14:17,020 And just because it's free, people 1164 01:14:17,020 --> 01:14:18,880 do not value it that much. 1165 01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:23,770 So I was thinking that how do we make a mechanism to stop that. 1166 01:14:23,770 --> 01:14:25,660 Is there any mechanism at all? 1167 01:14:25,660 --> 01:14:27,735 So that was my question. 1168 01:14:27,735 --> 01:14:28,360 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 1169 01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:31,630 I think that in terms of IWRM, in principle 1170 01:14:31,630 --> 01:14:32,980 the mechanism is there. 1171 01:14:32,980 --> 01:14:38,770 So we need to place a price on the water. 1172 01:14:38,770 --> 01:14:43,000 And yeah, one equity versus the price 1173 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:49,270 could be different for different group of people. 1174 01:14:49,270 --> 01:14:52,720 And that can help efficiency of water use. 1175 01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:58,030 And just that is demand side management of water resources 1176 01:14:58,030 --> 01:15:05,050 that is needed for increasing water use efficiency. 1177 01:15:05,050 --> 01:15:09,790 So yeah, the mechanism is there in terms of theoretical aspect. 1178 01:15:09,790 --> 01:15:13,130 But for implementing in Bangladesh 1179 01:15:13,130 --> 01:15:17,890 or in specific countries is-- yeah, there are problems. 1180 01:15:17,890 --> 01:15:21,850 So maybe now we can discuss Water Energy and Food Nexus, 1181 01:15:21,850 --> 01:15:24,610 the still we need to-- 1182 01:15:24,610 --> 01:15:28,660 so Water Energy and Food Nexus. 1183 01:15:28,660 --> 01:15:30,820 This is another important paradigm 1184 01:15:30,820 --> 01:15:32,680 of water resources management. 1185 01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:35,170 Sometimes it's called separate paradigm. 1186 01:15:35,170 --> 01:15:39,730 But sometimes it's within integrated water resources 1187 01:15:39,730 --> 01:15:43,360 management, where the integration was 1188 01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:44,700 big in the IWRM. 1189 01:15:44,700 --> 01:15:48,100 And in this case, this central integration 1190 01:15:48,100 --> 01:15:50,860 is explicitly mentioned. 1191 01:15:50,860 --> 01:15:54,950 Like [INAUDIBLE] integration of water, energy, and food. 1192 01:15:54,950 --> 01:15:58,060 But it could be also water, energy, food, climate, water, 1193 01:15:58,060 --> 01:16:03,200 energy, climate, ecosystem. 1194 01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:05,860 So it depends on the context. 1195 01:16:05,860 --> 01:16:14,210 But thinking of the Nexus is it comes from system integration. 1196 01:16:14,210 --> 01:16:16,960 So how the global systems are interconnected, 1197 01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:23,230 and how the traditional silo approaches 1198 01:16:23,230 --> 01:16:30,280 is diminishing the importance of system level outcome. 1199 01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:34,180 And that's why the Nexus concept came. 1200 01:16:34,180 --> 01:16:38,800 So for example, if I ask you what 1201 01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:42,700 you have eaten in the breakfast, maybe a banana. 1202 01:16:42,700 --> 01:16:47,440 And in that banana is not only food, 1203 01:16:47,440 --> 01:16:51,820 but also it incorporates huge amount of water 1204 01:16:51,820 --> 01:16:59,200 for producing the banana, but also transportation, 1205 01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:02,170 and also from the agricultural field 1206 01:17:02,170 --> 01:17:10,010 to coming into the food breakfast table, 1207 01:17:10,010 --> 01:17:13,990 it consumes huge amount of energy. 1208 01:17:13,990 --> 01:17:18,070 And if you don't-- 1209 01:17:18,070 --> 01:17:22,120 if you waste that banana, then you 1210 01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:28,240 can calculate how much energy and water has also 1211 01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:32,020 been wasted from producing too. 1212 01:17:32,020 --> 01:17:36,680 So this kind of thinking is the Nexus thinking. 1213 01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:39,670 So if you can increase the efficiency of water use 1214 01:17:39,670 --> 01:17:44,350 in one sector, that can also helps increasing efficiency 1215 01:17:44,350 --> 01:17:47,980 in the energy sector and also food sector. 1216 01:17:47,980 --> 01:17:52,120 And that's how the Water Energy Food Nexus 1217 01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:56,560 concept came, not only in the household perspective, 1218 01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:59,350 not only in the urban aspect, but also 1219 01:17:59,350 --> 01:18:04,330 in the transboundary water resources management aspect. 1220 01:18:04,330 --> 01:18:10,360 So the Nexus concept builds on many of this process. 1221 01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:15,160 And it also incorporates this integrated process. 1222 01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:17,740 But I already shared this article. 1223 01:18:17,740 --> 01:18:20,860 Probably you have read this article. 1224 01:18:20,860 --> 01:18:24,010 And it's interesting, because it clearly 1225 01:18:24,010 --> 01:18:31,330 identifies the synergies and trade-offs of water resources 1226 01:18:31,330 --> 01:18:33,700 management within Water Energy and Food Nexus, 1227 01:18:33,700 --> 01:18:39,610 and how the incorporating Nexus thinking 1228 01:18:39,610 --> 01:18:46,310 can help increase the efficiency of water resources management. 1229 01:18:46,310 --> 01:18:49,630 So for example, this Nexus thinking 1230 01:18:49,630 --> 01:18:54,880 can uncover synergies and co-benefits. 1231 01:18:54,880 --> 01:19:02,140 The example that is given in the London urine separation 1232 01:19:02,140 --> 01:19:09,640 technology that helps reducing 10% of water needs reduction, 1233 01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:15,190 but also eventually this also helps 1234 01:19:15,190 --> 01:19:17,500 reducing energy use in water supply 1235 01:19:17,500 --> 01:19:22,660 by 10% and wastewater treatment by 25%. 1236 01:19:22,660 --> 01:19:27,190 So by using simple urine separation technology, 1237 01:19:27,190 --> 01:19:34,730 that this helps reducing water needs, energy needs, 1238 01:19:34,730 --> 01:19:37,890 and wastewater treatment. 1239 01:19:37,890 --> 01:19:41,900 But also it helps capturing nutrients. 1240 01:19:41,900 --> 01:19:47,750 For example, 2,300 tons of phosphorus 1241 01:19:47,750 --> 01:19:52,040 and 24,000 tons of nitrogen annually 1242 01:19:52,040 --> 01:19:57,710 can be separated that can be utilized for producing 1243 01:19:57,710 --> 01:20:02,990 a million tons of wheat in UK. 1244 01:20:02,990 --> 01:20:09,170 So you can see how the synergies and co-benefits 1245 01:20:09,170 --> 01:20:14,360 can be achieved by applying this Water Energy Food Nexus 1246 01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:15,460 approach. 1247 01:20:15,460 --> 01:20:23,670 But also, it can detect harmful trade-off. 1248 01:20:23,670 --> 01:20:32,850 For example, in Egypt and Spain, the water demand comparison 1249 01:20:32,850 --> 01:20:36,630 is 75% higher than Spain in Egypt. 1250 01:20:36,630 --> 01:20:42,000 But because in Egypt, it considers 1251 01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:45,100 gravity-oriented irrigation system, 1252 01:20:45,100 --> 01:20:47,340 which requires much water. 1253 01:20:47,340 --> 01:20:53,430 But at the same time, the energy consumption 1254 01:20:53,430 --> 01:20:55,890 is three times lower than the Spain. 1255 01:20:55,890 --> 01:21:06,990 Because in Spain, it considers not the gravity irrigation, 1256 01:21:06,990 --> 01:21:11,700 but energy drip and drip irrigation systems. 1257 01:21:11,700 --> 01:21:18,480 So if we convert the irrigation system in Egypt, 1258 01:21:18,480 --> 01:21:20,520 then the water is saved. 1259 01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:26,220 But at the same time, the energy and carbon dioxide production 1260 01:21:26,220 --> 01:21:28,930 rate has increased significantly. 1261 01:21:28,930 --> 01:21:34,410 So this kind of trade-off can be considered by considering 1262 01:21:34,410 --> 01:21:36,240 this Nexus approach. 1263 01:21:38,790 --> 01:21:46,080 And also, I think Gemma was mentioning about the biofuels. 1264 01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:50,040 And here is the example of biofuel, 1265 01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:54,030 how the increased consumption of biofuel 1266 01:21:54,030 --> 01:21:59,010 is promoted as an alternative of oil and gas. 1267 01:21:59,010 --> 01:22:02,430 But at the same time, it can create huge amount 1268 01:22:02,430 --> 01:22:08,700 of water scarcity and food sustainability in the United 1269 01:22:08,700 --> 01:22:12,780 States, but also in the other countries. 1270 01:22:12,780 --> 01:22:16,050 So the unexpected consequences can 1271 01:22:16,050 --> 01:22:20,220 be taken into account by considering this Nexus 1272 01:22:20,220 --> 01:22:22,470 approach. 1273 01:22:22,470 --> 01:22:26,960 So also in terms of integrated planning, and decision-making, 1274 01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:29,900 and governance, this Water Energy Food Nexus 1275 01:22:29,900 --> 01:22:31,860 is very important. 1276 01:22:31,860 --> 01:22:35,100 Let's consider the transboundary aspect. 1277 01:22:35,100 --> 01:22:39,170 So here in terms of Water Energy and Food 1278 01:22:39,170 --> 01:22:42,800 Nexus in the transboundary context, 1279 01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:47,240 if you see the relation between water and food. 1280 01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:53,180 And for the food production, you must need water. 1281 01:22:53,180 --> 01:23:01,060 And in the upstream, water uses for the agriculture 1282 01:23:01,060 --> 01:23:03,780 affects also in the downstream. 1283 01:23:03,780 --> 01:23:07,260 And this can-- so the water and food 1284 01:23:07,260 --> 01:23:12,380 are highly relevant in that transboundary context. 1285 01:23:12,380 --> 01:23:17,200 But also, food affect water resources. 1286 01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:23,690 For example, it can through intensifying 1287 01:23:23,690 --> 01:23:27,410 agricultural practices and land use changes 1288 01:23:27,410 --> 01:23:32,900 by agricultural expansion, this can affect water quantity 1289 01:23:32,900 --> 01:23:34,880 by changing the runoff. 1290 01:23:34,880 --> 01:23:41,870 But also it can affect eutrophication and salinization 1291 01:23:41,870 --> 01:23:44,960 and affects water quality. 1292 01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:49,220 But at the same time, if you see the relation between water 1293 01:23:49,220 --> 01:23:53,270 and energy, for the energy production, of course 1294 01:23:53,270 --> 01:23:55,970 you need water. 1295 01:23:55,970 --> 01:24:02,200 And energy production also affects water quality 1296 01:24:02,200 --> 01:24:03,750 and quantity. 1297 01:24:03,750 --> 01:24:10,060 For example, the hydropower production for energy 1298 01:24:10,060 --> 01:24:15,100 affects on water quality in terms of changing water 1299 01:24:15,100 --> 01:24:15,970 temperature. 1300 01:24:15,970 --> 01:24:19,630 And also, so the water temperature 1301 01:24:19,630 --> 01:24:24,820 can change quickly by storing water in a dam. 1302 01:24:24,820 --> 01:24:28,690 And that can also affect changing the water quality 1303 01:24:28,690 --> 01:24:29,620 parameter. 1304 01:24:29,620 --> 01:24:32,350 So you can see that these linkages 1305 01:24:32,350 --> 01:24:35,830 are important for transboundary context. 1306 01:24:35,830 --> 01:24:39,850 In this study done by Keskinen et al, 1307 01:24:39,850 --> 01:24:45,880 they tried to compare three transboundary areas 1308 01:24:45,880 --> 01:24:51,310 in the Central Asia, mainly the Aral Sea, South Asian 1309 01:24:51,310 --> 01:24:56,950 context, Ganges-Brahmaputra, and in the Mekong region-- 1310 01:24:56,950 --> 01:24:58,450 the Mekong River basin. 1311 01:24:58,450 --> 01:25:03,430 And they tried to qualitatively analyze 1312 01:25:03,430 --> 01:25:08,080 this interrelation between the water, energy, and food. 1313 01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:14,620 And the thickness of the line can 1314 01:25:14,620 --> 01:25:19,120 determine how the relationship established, 1315 01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:26,020 and what are the strength of the relationships are determined 1316 01:25:26,020 --> 01:25:28,910 by the thickness of the line. 1317 01:25:28,910 --> 01:25:32,740 For example, in the case of Central Asia, 1318 01:25:32,740 --> 01:25:40,870 the impact of food on water is highly important there. 1319 01:25:40,870 --> 01:25:45,670 But also impact of energy production on downstream water 1320 01:25:45,670 --> 01:25:48,880 flow is also important. 1321 01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:53,650 In the case of South Asia, the impact of-- 1322 01:25:53,650 --> 01:25:58,960 the importance of water on agricultural production 1323 01:25:58,960 --> 01:26:01,880 between the upstream and downstream is very important. 1324 01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:03,010 So that's how they found. 1325 01:26:03,010 --> 01:26:07,120 So this kind of qualitative relationships 1326 01:26:07,120 --> 01:26:11,170 for water resources management within the Water Energy Food 1327 01:26:11,170 --> 01:26:13,520 Nexus has been established. 1328 01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:19,720 So in terms of how the Water Energy Food Nexus is 1329 01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:22,210 important for water diplomacy. 1330 01:26:22,210 --> 01:26:29,930 So as you have seen, that the identifying synergies 1331 01:26:29,930 --> 01:26:34,690 and trade-offs beyond water and river basin 1332 01:26:34,690 --> 01:26:38,050 management [INAUDIBLE] is providing 1333 01:26:38,050 --> 01:26:42,100 a scope for water diplomacy. 1334 01:26:42,100 --> 01:26:47,860 But also the mutual benefit and promoting value creation-- 1335 01:26:47,860 --> 01:26:53,890 the Water Energy Food Nexus gave a clear value added 1336 01:26:53,890 --> 01:26:58,210 for water negotiation. 1337 01:26:58,210 --> 01:27:02,080 For example, hydropower-- linking hydropower, 1338 01:27:02,080 --> 01:27:07,835 agricultural production, and water management can help 1339 01:27:07,835 --> 01:27:08,335 saving-- 1340 01:27:11,140 --> 01:27:15,550 that can help creating multiple benefits, 1341 01:27:15,550 --> 01:27:22,120 and multiple co-benefits, and multiple value that helps 1342 01:27:22,120 --> 01:27:26,350 water negotiation very easily. 1343 01:27:26,350 --> 01:27:32,720 But also, Water Energy Food Nexus promote business idea. 1344 01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:37,690 And that can also link into the negotiation table, 1345 01:27:37,690 --> 01:27:43,120 and can help reducing the conflict, 1346 01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:47,880 and can create a cooperative environment. 1347 01:27:47,880 --> 01:27:51,700 So these are the ideas that Water Energy Food 1348 01:27:51,700 --> 01:27:56,590 Nexus can support promoting the water diplomacy. 1349 01:27:56,590 --> 01:27:58,075 That's how I see it. 1350 01:27:58,075 --> 01:28:01,270 So here is a reference. 1351 01:28:01,270 --> 01:28:04,400 I'll put them in the Canvas site. 1352 01:28:04,400 --> 01:28:07,900 I found just recently, so I can share this article, 1353 01:28:07,900 --> 01:28:11,020 so that you can have an understanding how Water Energy 1354 01:28:11,020 --> 01:28:15,970 Food Nexus can be useful for water diplomacy. 1355 01:28:15,970 --> 01:28:17,920 And also, how water diplomacy can 1356 01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:22,780 help implementing Water Energy Food Nexus approach. 1357 01:28:22,780 --> 01:28:28,150 Just quickly, sustainable development goals-- 1358 01:28:28,150 --> 01:28:35,350 the sustainable development goal has been considered in 2015 1359 01:28:35,350 --> 01:28:38,740 to meet the target by 2030. 1360 01:28:38,740 --> 01:28:43,160 And in order to move from MDGs to SDGs, 1361 01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:49,360 it considers 17 SDGs and with 169 targets. 1362 01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:57,550 And SDG 6 is the ensuring availability and sustainable 1363 01:28:57,550 --> 01:29:01,570 management of water and sanitation for all. 1364 01:29:01,570 --> 01:29:05,710 And it incorporates SDG 6.5 that we 1365 01:29:05,710 --> 01:29:10,940 need to implement IWRM through transboundary cooperation. 1366 01:29:10,940 --> 01:29:17,710 So the goal 6.5, or target 6.5 specifically 1367 01:29:17,710 --> 01:29:25,120 on implementation of IWRM for cooperation incorporating 1368 01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:28,030 transboundary cooperation. 1369 01:29:28,030 --> 01:29:33,820 So here is the linkage of SDGs and IWRMs. 1370 01:29:33,820 --> 01:29:41,970 But also the way IWRM is considered as an indicator, 1371 01:29:41,970 --> 01:29:46,680 it is kind of-- there is criticism 1372 01:29:46,680 --> 01:29:49,590 on this, because IWRM is very broader concept 1373 01:29:49,590 --> 01:29:51,360 and theoretical concept. 1374 01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:53,940 But the way that IWRM is considered 1375 01:29:53,940 --> 01:30:01,500 as even sustainable goals, there is strong criticism on that. 1376 01:30:01,500 --> 01:30:07,170 Because it considers very vague way of putting numbers on IWRM. 1377 01:30:07,170 --> 01:30:15,960 And how the measuring the progress is very debatable. 1378 01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:22,080 But this is one of the major paradigm that internationally 1379 01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:23,160 acknowledged. 1380 01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:28,200 And that's why IWRM is very important. 1381 01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:34,980 And also with relation to SDGs and water diplomacy, 1382 01:30:34,980 --> 01:30:39,300 I see that many SDG goals are interlinked. 1383 01:30:39,300 --> 01:30:43,720 And it can creates synergies and trade-offs. 1384 01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:49,710 So for example, if I can make one SDG target of, 1385 01:30:49,710 --> 01:30:52,920 for example, renewable energy production. 1386 01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:56,430 And for renewable energy production, 1387 01:30:56,430 --> 01:31:04,150 is not specifically defined which kind of renewable energy 1388 01:31:04,150 --> 01:31:05,330 can be produced. 1389 01:31:05,330 --> 01:31:13,690 So that can promote the idea of hydroelectric electricity 1390 01:31:13,690 --> 01:31:14,290 generation. 1391 01:31:14,290 --> 01:31:20,950 So that can also affect implementation of IWRMs. 1392 01:31:20,950 --> 01:31:27,190 Because if you promote upstream water development projects 1393 01:31:27,190 --> 01:31:32,380 for hydroelectricity, then this can affect relationship 1394 01:31:32,380 --> 01:31:36,360 with the downstream countries. 1395 01:31:36,360 --> 01:31:40,540 So these kind of synergies and trade-offs are very important. 1396 01:31:40,540 --> 01:31:43,780 And that can be reduced, or that can 1397 01:31:43,780 --> 01:31:48,050 be resolved through diplomacy approach broadly. 1398 01:31:48,050 --> 01:31:51,460 So that's how I can see the link between the SDGs 1399 01:31:51,460 --> 01:31:57,483 and the water diplomacy aspect in general. 1400 01:31:57,483 --> 01:32:03,790 So that's we wanted to discuss today classes. 1401 01:32:03,790 --> 01:32:07,000 So first, we already discussed the evolution 1402 01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:12,790 of water resources management, how it came from the supply 1403 01:32:12,790 --> 01:32:17,980 side approach to the demand and decentralized approach 1404 01:32:17,980 --> 01:32:19,090 with an example. 1405 01:32:19,090 --> 01:32:24,460 But then, we already discussed IWRM and its importance 1406 01:32:24,460 --> 01:32:29,200 in the international water resource management aspect, 1407 01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:32,890 and its relation with the water diplomacy. 1408 01:32:32,890 --> 01:32:36,790 But also, we discussed Water Energy Food Nexus 1409 01:32:36,790 --> 01:32:41,290 and sustainable development goals, and its relation 1410 01:32:41,290 --> 01:32:44,400 with water diplomacy. 1411 01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:46,920 Yes, so the next class will be the week after. 1412 01:32:46,920 --> 01:32:51,480 And that class we'll play a role-play simulation, 1413 01:32:51,480 --> 01:32:57,460 practically how we can resolve water conflicts. 1414 01:32:57,460 --> 01:33:03,690 We'll play the game Indopotamia river basin management. 1415 01:33:03,690 --> 01:33:06,000 And for the role-play simulation, 1416 01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:08,520 we will need nine players. 1417 01:33:08,520 --> 01:33:10,560 But we have six players. 1418 01:33:10,560 --> 01:33:13,950 So do you know is there any of your friend 1419 01:33:13,950 --> 01:33:18,090 could be interested in the role-play simulation? 1420 01:33:18,090 --> 01:33:22,570 If you don't find, I will try to find three other players. 1421 01:33:22,570 --> 01:33:29,610 But if you have interesting colleagues that 1422 01:33:29,610 --> 01:33:33,870 are highly interested to understand the role-play game, 1423 01:33:33,870 --> 01:33:35,770 you can let me know. 1424 01:33:35,770 --> 01:33:37,540 Yeah. 1425 01:33:37,540 --> 01:33:43,010 So another notice or announcement 1426 01:33:43,010 --> 01:33:45,950 is that next week, Larry and me are 1427 01:33:45,950 --> 01:33:49,620 going to talk on transboundary water resources management. 1428 01:33:49,620 --> 01:33:52,400 Larry will discuss mainly the theoretical aspect. 1429 01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:58,680 And I will describe the Brahmaputra River basin case. 1430 01:33:58,680 --> 01:34:02,690 So if you are interested, you can join in this event. 1431 01:34:02,690 --> 01:34:06,290 I can share the link for the presentation. 1432 01:34:06,290 --> 01:34:09,660 It's the EU time. 1433 01:34:09,660 --> 01:34:13,380 So it's the European time. 1434 01:34:13,380 --> 01:34:20,140 So in US time, this would be 11 AM. 1435 01:34:20,140 --> 01:34:21,730 Or yeah. 1436 01:34:21,730 --> 01:34:26,740 So if you are interested, feel free to join in this event. 1437 01:34:26,740 --> 01:34:27,844 Yeah. 1438 01:34:27,844 --> 01:34:29,890 Oh, another announcement-- sorry, 1439 01:34:29,890 --> 01:34:34,360 I wanted to put it in here. 1440 01:34:34,360 --> 01:34:39,640 There is a discussion paper on Water Energy and Food Nexus. 1441 01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:45,340 And there is a discussion series is taking place 1442 01:34:45,340 --> 01:34:52,050 by one of our colleague, who is the editor of the journal 1443 01:34:52,050 --> 01:34:55,350 Hydrological Sciences Journal. 1444 01:34:55,350 --> 01:34:57,300 And in that discussion paper, there 1445 01:34:57,300 --> 01:35:00,090 is a topic on Water Energy and Food Nexus. 1446 01:35:00,090 --> 01:35:02,490 And people are interested, and if you 1447 01:35:02,490 --> 01:35:06,240 feel is fit in your area of interest, 1448 01:35:06,240 --> 01:35:09,450 there is a paper on water quality and Water Energy Food 1449 01:35:09,450 --> 01:35:10,470 Nexus. 1450 01:35:10,470 --> 01:35:15,700 And if you can criticize or comment on that paper, 1451 01:35:15,700 --> 01:35:23,490 that can also be published if this is a concise and yeah, 1452 01:35:23,490 --> 01:35:25,000 written in a scientific way. 1453 01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:28,590 So I can share that link if you are interested in participating 1454 01:35:28,590 --> 01:35:31,260 this kind of writing. 1455 01:35:31,260 --> 01:35:32,140 You can let me know. 1456 01:35:32,140 --> 01:35:36,250 I have the linkage with the editor of that journal. 1457 01:35:36,250 --> 01:35:39,070 So I can share with you if you are interested. 1458 01:35:39,070 --> 01:35:42,510 So the writeup should be one or two pages, 1459 01:35:42,510 --> 01:35:45,930 but it should be written in a scientific way. 1460 01:35:45,930 --> 01:35:47,730 Yeah. 1461 01:35:47,730 --> 01:35:49,740 So I shared those two links. 1462 01:35:49,740 --> 01:35:55,540 And also I will share the role-play simulation, 1463 01:35:55,540 --> 01:35:58,470 what the general instruction, but also 1464 01:35:58,470 --> 01:36:01,380 a confidential instruction for each player. 1465 01:36:01,380 --> 01:36:05,630 I will share it with you in the next few days. 1466 01:36:05,630 --> 01:36:06,540 Yeah. 1467 01:36:06,540 --> 01:36:09,380 So bye.