WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.980 [SQUEAKING] 00:00:01.980 --> 00:00:02.970 [RUSTLING] 00:00:02.970 --> 00:00:04.950 [CLICKING] 00:00:24.300 --> 00:00:29.380 DR. GAIN: So today we are going to talk about the evolution 00:00:29.380 --> 00:00:31.138 of water resources management. 00:00:31.138 --> 00:00:32.680 And at the end of the class, you will 00:00:32.680 --> 00:00:38.380 be able to describe paradigm shift and evolution of water 00:00:38.380 --> 00:00:41.620 resources management in general. 00:00:41.620 --> 00:00:43.600 But also, you can critically evaluate 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:48.340 the importance of IWRM for water diplomacy, 00:00:48.340 --> 00:00:53.470 and also Water-Energy-Food nexus and its relation with water 00:00:53.470 --> 00:00:57.070 diplomacy, and also importance of water diplomacy 00:00:57.070 --> 00:01:00.730 for achieving sustainable development goals. 00:01:00.730 --> 00:01:04.989 Today's talk is regarding a new process-- 00:01:04.989 --> 00:01:06.850 recent-- a process of water resources 00:01:06.850 --> 00:01:09.730 management and sustainable development goals 00:01:09.730 --> 00:01:12.400 and its relation with our water diplomacy. 00:01:15.240 --> 00:01:18.970 In this figure, I try to summarize 00:01:18.970 --> 00:01:23.070 taken from these references how the water resource 00:01:23.070 --> 00:01:26.400 management has evolved throughout the time. 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:27.870 It has four metrics. 00:01:27.870 --> 00:01:30.390 You can see that from the centralized management 00:01:30.390 --> 00:01:35.490 to decentralized management in the vertical axis. 00:01:35.490 --> 00:01:38.100 And from centralized management, it 00:01:38.100 --> 00:01:42.030 means the centralized form of governance 00:01:42.030 --> 00:01:46.290 where the stakeholder engagement and participation is-- 00:01:46.290 --> 00:01:50.430 the possibility of stakeholder engagement is very low. 00:01:50.430 --> 00:01:53.520 But when it moves to the decentralized 00:01:53.520 --> 00:01:57.390 form of governance, it can enclose stakeholder engagement 00:01:57.390 --> 00:02:01.410 from local peoples and local participations. 00:02:01.410 --> 00:02:04.020 And in the horizontal axis, you can 00:02:04.020 --> 00:02:07.230 see from the supply side management 00:02:07.230 --> 00:02:10.080 to the demand side management. 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:16.830 In the left upper corner, this is the traditional development 00:02:16.830 --> 00:02:20.190 of water resources management-- not only water resources 00:02:20.190 --> 00:02:24.030 management, any development started from this side. 00:02:24.030 --> 00:02:28.850 So it's highly centralized and supply side approach. 00:02:28.850 --> 00:02:33.740 So this is the first development pattern of water resources. 00:02:33.740 --> 00:02:40.990 So for example in this case, only option is to invest-- 00:02:40.990 --> 00:02:45.810 how to create dams, construction, reservoirs. 00:02:45.810 --> 00:02:49.350 So this is the only consideration for the water 00:02:49.350 --> 00:02:50.850 resources management. 00:02:50.850 --> 00:02:54.010 And it's considered only engineering-based approach, 00:02:54.010 --> 00:02:57.900 and it's very technocratic approach without considering 00:02:57.900 --> 00:03:01.680 societal aspects or economic aspects-- 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:04.500 mainly how to make the development 00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:08.400 and how the development pattern is start, 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:10.710 and how the engineering structures 00:03:10.710 --> 00:03:16.840 can help to make the development effective. 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:20.760 So this is the only consideration in this phase. 00:03:20.760 --> 00:03:25.140 And then, so this is the position 00:03:25.140 --> 00:03:31.050 of A in the left-hand side upper corner. 00:03:31.050 --> 00:03:39.360 And but slowly, it moves from A to B. And in that case, 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:42.990 from investment-oriented decision, it moves-- 00:03:42.990 --> 00:03:47.490 it takes consideration of the societal issues slowly. 00:03:47.490 --> 00:03:53.010 And then, so initial management paradigm 00:03:53.010 --> 00:03:57.300 considers mainly engineers, hydrologists, and technocrats. 00:03:57.300 --> 00:04:02.730 But slowly, they can understand that this can create 00:04:02.730 --> 00:04:04.800 consequences to the society. 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:09.240 And they can try to understand the demand of the local people 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:09.840 slowly. 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:12.720 And so, they try to incorporate the-- 00:04:12.720 --> 00:04:16.050 they try to realize that water is not only 00:04:16.050 --> 00:04:23.080 the development pattern or supply side management. 00:04:23.080 --> 00:04:27.630 It needs to consider also societal and economic aspect. 00:04:27.630 --> 00:04:31.110 And thus, the demand side options is started, 00:04:31.110 --> 00:04:33.540 and the demand side management is started. 00:04:33.540 --> 00:04:37.350 And then slowly, it moves to the C. And in that case, 00:04:37.350 --> 00:04:41.370 institutional reformation start, or for example, 00:04:41.370 --> 00:04:45.150 decentralized form of governance institution. 00:04:45.150 --> 00:04:48.480 And yeah, so the-- 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:53.790 from engineering-based structure of the management 00:04:53.790 --> 00:05:03.630 paradigm shift towards different disciplinary bodies 00:05:03.630 --> 00:05:07.170 in the management body, but also local engagement 00:05:07.170 --> 00:05:10.300 can also take place. 00:05:10.300 --> 00:05:14.130 So this is the overall broader evolution 00:05:14.130 --> 00:05:16.620 of the water resources management 00:05:16.620 --> 00:05:20.410 happens internationally-- and also many countries. 00:05:20.410 --> 00:05:26.100 So here I can give an example how it happens in Bangladesh. 00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:29.280 Because I know this-- 00:05:29.280 --> 00:05:32.880 the context of Bangladesh water resources management-- how 00:05:32.880 --> 00:05:35.370 it happens throughout the time. 00:05:35.370 --> 00:05:39.300 So I can also explain the graph that I have shown 00:05:39.300 --> 00:05:42.780 and what happens practically in the Bangladesh case. 00:05:42.780 --> 00:05:50.910 So before 1947, Bangladesh was part of the British colony. 00:05:50.910 --> 00:05:55.200 And during that time, there is no embankment 00:05:55.200 --> 00:05:59.530 to protect flooding in Bangladesh. 00:05:59.530 --> 00:06:07.460 So in that time, local people manage the embankment 00:06:07.460 --> 00:06:13.670 during the dry season to grow the crops. 00:06:13.670 --> 00:06:16.250 And in that case, landlords-- 00:06:16.250 --> 00:06:21.830 the British empire provide ownership 00:06:21.830 --> 00:06:25.520 to the landlord to manage a specific area of land. 00:06:25.520 --> 00:06:30.380 And to engaging local farmers, the landlords 00:06:30.380 --> 00:06:35.150 was responsible for managing flood protection embankments 00:06:35.150 --> 00:06:40.320 only during the dry season for growing crops. 00:06:40.320 --> 00:06:46.460 But during rainy season, that embankment was, yeah-- 00:06:46.460 --> 00:06:49.220 vanished because of the rainfall. 00:06:49.220 --> 00:06:52.790 And the river water could enter into the flood plain. 00:06:52.790 --> 00:06:55.700 And it helps sedimentation. 00:06:55.700 --> 00:07:00.530 And it increases the yeah-- so land formation 00:07:00.530 --> 00:07:03.740 was happening during that time because sediment 00:07:03.740 --> 00:07:07.710 could come into the floodplain. 00:07:07.710 --> 00:07:11.720 And so this is kind of a natural process 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.610 was maintained during that period. 00:07:14.610 --> 00:07:19.220 But after 1947, the British colony ended. 00:07:19.220 --> 00:07:25.010 And there is no institution like the landlord management 00:07:25.010 --> 00:07:26.820 territory was not there. 00:07:26.820 --> 00:07:34.760 And since then, this part of land was part of Indian estate. 00:07:34.760 --> 00:07:40.550 So it was India and Pakistan was divided. 00:07:40.550 --> 00:07:44.580 And Bangladesh was part of the East Pakistan during that time. 00:07:44.580 --> 00:07:48.830 And so during that time, there is no responsible authority 00:07:48.830 --> 00:07:52.370 to managing the embankment or floodplain. 00:07:52.370 --> 00:07:57.040 And during that time in 1954 and '55, 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:01.030 there was a major flood events. 00:08:01.030 --> 00:08:05.800 And after that flood events, flood protection embankments 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:10.300 was constructed in 1960s. 00:08:10.300 --> 00:08:14.800 And you see during that period heavy engineering works 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:16.150 started. 00:08:16.150 --> 00:08:21.460 And in that case, the embankment protect the flooding 00:08:21.460 --> 00:08:24.160 from the river. 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:33.250 But also it helps initially the agricultural production highly. 00:08:33.250 --> 00:08:41.490 But slowly after a few years, this river 00:08:41.490 --> 00:08:43.409 carries a huge amount of sediment. 00:08:43.409 --> 00:08:47.040 And that sediment deposited in the flood plain, 00:08:47.040 --> 00:08:50.220 and that makes the land formation in the floodplain. 00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:52.920 But due to the embankment, this process 00:08:52.920 --> 00:08:58.260 was not taking place due to the construction of the embankment. 00:08:58.260 --> 00:09:03.600 And then the sedimentation was happening in the riverbed 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:05.610 instead of the floodplain. 00:09:05.610 --> 00:09:08.190 So the floodplain-- the land formation 00:09:08.190 --> 00:09:10.080 was not happening in the floodplain. 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:17.340 But those sediment was deposited in the riverbed. 00:09:17.340 --> 00:09:19.650 And that increased the riverbed. 00:09:19.650 --> 00:09:22.470 And it reduces the navigability. 00:09:22.470 --> 00:09:26.560 At the same time, the internal water logging is started. 00:09:26.560 --> 00:09:32.400 So in 1980s, this whole area of floodplain becomes waterlogged. 00:09:32.400 --> 00:09:35.610 And permanent flooding was happening 00:09:35.610 --> 00:09:38.670 because of this construction of embankments. 00:09:38.670 --> 00:09:42.930 So you see how the consequence started from the supply side 00:09:42.930 --> 00:09:50.790 approach considering only the narrow focus of the supply side 00:09:50.790 --> 00:09:51.430 process. 00:09:51.430 --> 00:09:53.400 So initially it helps in improving 00:09:53.400 --> 00:09:55.020 the agricultural production. 00:09:55.020 --> 00:10:01.860 But in the long run, it created a disaster to the local people. 00:10:01.860 --> 00:10:04.650 So local people understood this process. 00:10:04.650 --> 00:10:08.890 And they really understood what is happening there. 00:10:08.890 --> 00:10:14.010 So going against the government, they 00:10:14.010 --> 00:10:17.760 tried to cut the embankment and bring the river 00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:19.740 water inside the floodplain. 00:10:19.740 --> 00:10:24.750 And this process they call this, is tidal river management 00:10:24.750 --> 00:10:26.790 in 1990s. 00:10:26.790 --> 00:10:31.140 So they tried to implement this process going 00:10:31.140 --> 00:10:33.840 against government process. 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.600 And they tried to implement locally 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:39.090 with self-organizing capacity. 00:10:39.090 --> 00:10:42.690 And they implemented it on floodplain. 00:10:42.690 --> 00:10:44.370 And they were successful. 00:10:44.370 --> 00:10:47.940 And they after two years, they were 00:10:47.940 --> 00:10:53.460 able to see the major impact, like navigability 00:10:53.460 --> 00:10:57.520 in the riverbed is increased. 00:10:57.520 --> 00:11:01.500 And also the floodplain-- the sedimentation was 00:11:01.500 --> 00:11:03.400 happening in the floodplain. 00:11:03.400 --> 00:11:09.920 So then the government could also see the positive benefits. 00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:13.550 So then they tried to institutionalize this approach 00:11:13.550 --> 00:11:17.450 in the government approach. 00:11:17.450 --> 00:11:21.440 So you can see how the transformation or evolution 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:24.020 happened in this context-- 00:11:24.020 --> 00:11:26.870 a similar explanation that I just 00:11:26.870 --> 00:11:30.770 gave in the previous slide, just to 00:11:30.770 --> 00:11:35.640 show how the evolution was happening. 00:11:35.640 --> 00:11:41.120 I also tried to explain how a paradigm shift in water 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:46.550 resources management happen through the literature provided 00:11:46.550 --> 00:11:49.230 by Claudia Pahl-Wostl. 00:11:49.230 --> 00:11:55.400 She's one of the experts on adaptive water resources 00:11:55.400 --> 00:11:58.610 management or integrated water resources management. 00:11:58.610 --> 00:12:06.590 And so, in her work she tried to categorize or explain 00:12:06.590 --> 00:12:13.440 different dimensions of water resources management 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:17.160 from command and control approach 00:12:17.160 --> 00:12:18.610 to the integrated approach. 00:12:18.610 --> 00:12:25.600 So in the governance dimensions that the major paradigm shift 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:29.050 happened from centralized form of governance 00:12:29.050 --> 00:12:34.420 to the polycentric form of governance, which 00:12:34.420 --> 00:12:38.830 incorporates both integration of top-down and bottom-up 00:12:38.830 --> 00:12:40.120 approach. 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:42.950 And also in terms of sectoral integration, 00:12:42.950 --> 00:12:50.420 in the case of command and control approach, in that case, 00:12:50.420 --> 00:12:53.590 the sectoral integration was not possible. 00:12:53.590 --> 00:12:56.050 And it creates policy conflicts. 00:12:56.050 --> 00:13:00.640 But in the integrated form-- integrated and adaptive form 00:13:00.640 --> 00:13:04.660 of management, the cross-sectoral integration 00:13:04.660 --> 00:13:05.740 is possible. 00:13:05.740 --> 00:13:11.180 And that also integrates policy implementation. 00:13:11.180 --> 00:13:17.170 So in the case of scale of analysis and operation, 00:13:17.170 --> 00:13:19.660 this transboundary problems emerge 00:13:19.660 --> 00:13:23.890 when rivers or basins are exclusive scale 00:13:23.890 --> 00:13:27.190 of analysis and management. 00:13:27.190 --> 00:13:30.640 But in the integrated form of governance, 00:13:30.640 --> 00:13:33.790 the trans boundary issues addressed by multiple scale 00:13:33.790 --> 00:13:39.270 of analysis and management. 00:13:39.270 --> 00:13:44.280 And in the case of information management, 00:13:44.280 --> 00:13:47.700 understanding fragmented by gaps and lack 00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:53.520 of integration or proprietary information sources. 00:13:53.520 --> 00:13:57.930 But in the case of integrated form of governance, 00:13:57.930 --> 00:14:00.030 this comprehensive understanding achieved 00:14:00.030 --> 00:14:03.120 by open shared information sources 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:07.080 that fill gaps and facilitate integration. 00:14:10.490 --> 00:14:13.770 And there are also three other dimensions. 00:14:13.770 --> 00:14:16.310 So as infrastructure, you can see 00:14:16.310 --> 00:14:20.870 that in the first cases, only the command and control 00:14:20.870 --> 00:14:25.520 approach massive centralized infrastructure 00:14:25.520 --> 00:14:30.110 design and engineering with structure is dominant. 00:14:30.110 --> 00:14:35.030 But in the case of integrative and adaptive water resources 00:14:35.030 --> 00:14:39.470 management, this incorporates a combination of centralized 00:14:39.470 --> 00:14:45.440 and decentralized diverse source of design and power delivery 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:47.570 is very important. 00:14:47.570 --> 00:14:52.010 And in terms of financial and risk management, 00:14:52.010 --> 00:14:55.290 this case is only structural protection. 00:14:55.290 --> 00:14:58.250 And these risks are considered. 00:14:58.250 --> 00:15:01.490 But in the case of integrated management, 00:15:01.490 --> 00:15:05.990 diversified financial resources are 00:15:05.990 --> 00:15:09.770 considered for by considering broad set 00:15:09.770 --> 00:15:15.460 of private and public financial instruments. 00:15:15.460 --> 00:15:18.520 And important aspect is dealing with uncertainty. 00:15:18.520 --> 00:15:20.740 In the case of command and control approach, 00:15:20.740 --> 00:15:24.460 it is considered that uncertainty 00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:28.630 is considered as undesirable sign of incomplete knowledge. 00:15:28.630 --> 00:15:30.520 So they don't know what will happen 00:15:30.520 --> 00:15:33.310 and how to manage the uncertainty. 00:15:33.310 --> 00:15:36.140 And this will create major problem. 00:15:36.140 --> 00:15:40.540 But adaptive and integrated management, 00:15:40.540 --> 00:15:45.040 the irreducible uncertainties are acceptable, 00:15:45.040 --> 00:15:47.140 and the adaptive approaches are taken 00:15:47.140 --> 00:15:51.610 how to deal with the future uncertain outcomes 00:15:51.610 --> 00:15:55.280 by considering different scenarios. 00:15:55.280 --> 00:16:02.350 For example, different perspectives 00:16:02.350 --> 00:16:04.540 are explicitly acknowledged. 00:16:04.540 --> 00:16:12.250 So here you can see difference between the two approaches 00:16:12.250 --> 00:16:16.040 from command and control to the integrated approach. 00:16:16.040 --> 00:16:18.610 So now we would like to introduce 00:16:18.610 --> 00:16:25.030 one of the major paradigm shift and major dominant paradigm 00:16:25.030 --> 00:16:27.700 of water resource management, which is integrated 00:16:27.700 --> 00:16:31.230 water resources management. 00:16:31.230 --> 00:16:36.150 And of course, these pulls in the right-hand side 00:16:36.150 --> 00:16:39.070 characteristics that I have shown here. 00:16:39.070 --> 00:16:45.030 So integrative and integrated water resources management. 00:16:45.030 --> 00:16:48.540 Yeah, integrated water resources management is not new. 00:16:48.540 --> 00:16:54.330 Although that is internationally conceptualized recently 00:16:54.330 --> 00:17:00.960 in the 20th century and at the end of the 20th century 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.290 is introduced in the international arena. 00:17:04.290 --> 00:17:11.160 But there are ancient practices that incorporate-- 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.119 integrated the major dimensions of integrated water resources 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:17.520 management has been considered. 00:17:17.520 --> 00:17:23.130 For example, in 9th century, Subak irrigation system in Bali 00:17:23.130 --> 00:17:26.099 is one of the ancient irrigation practices 00:17:26.099 --> 00:17:31.170 which practice this integrated water resources management. 00:17:31.170 --> 00:17:33.240 Of course, without knowing the concept, 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:37.410 but they tried to incorporate the integration 00:17:37.410 --> 00:17:43.620 self-organization for managing the Bali irrigation systems 00:17:43.620 --> 00:17:47.730 through ancient practices. 00:17:47.730 --> 00:17:52.750 Here, I wanted to share a video a very short video-- 00:17:52.750 --> 00:17:54.980 but you can find interesting how they 00:17:54.980 --> 00:17:58.860 were able to manage this Subak irrigation 00:17:58.860 --> 00:18:05.180 system in the Balinese agricultural practices. 00:18:05.180 --> 00:18:06.820 So let me share this. 00:18:11.869 --> 00:18:14.580 You can see how self-organization 00:18:14.580 --> 00:18:22.470 and cooperative water management has taken place 00:18:22.470 --> 00:18:25.380 since that ancient time. 00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:31.350 And not only the Subak system, but also there 00:18:31.350 --> 00:18:35.610 are other historical practices that 00:18:35.610 --> 00:18:41.280 incorporates this integrated form of resource management 00:18:41.280 --> 00:18:42.270 practices. 00:18:42.270 --> 00:18:44.970 And other water resources management practices 00:18:44.970 --> 00:18:50.940 in Valencia, Spain, the multi-stakeholder participatory 00:18:50.940 --> 00:18:56.890 water tribunal have operated at least since 10th century. 00:18:56.890 --> 00:19:05.820 But also, the modern form of integrated water resources 00:19:05.820 --> 00:19:10.890 management was influenced mainly by Tennessee Valley Authority 00:19:10.890 --> 00:19:16.810 created in 1933 to holistically manage water resources. 00:19:16.810 --> 00:19:22.920 So I don't know whether you are familiar with the Tennessee 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:24.390 Valley Authority. 00:19:24.390 --> 00:19:28.485 Did-- some of you are familiar with this? 00:19:28.485 --> 00:19:31.170 Larry, do you know? 00:19:31.170 --> 00:19:35.242 I know some information, but probably you 00:19:35.242 --> 00:19:37.980 know better than me regarding the TVA 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:41.290 form of management approach. 00:19:41.290 --> 00:19:43.830 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Well, TVA wasn't just set up 00:19:43.830 --> 00:19:46.310 as a water management body. 00:19:46.310 --> 00:19:51.690 The Tennessee Valley Authority had enormous scope 00:19:51.690 --> 00:19:55.450 of development power and responsibility. 00:19:55.450 --> 00:19:58.740 And one of the few times in the United States 00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:04.440 where there was development across a large region, 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:08.430 more than just a city or a metropolitan area. 00:20:08.430 --> 00:20:10.770 This covered much more of an area. 00:20:10.770 --> 00:20:15.660 And it attempted to give public management 00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:20.760 to infrastructure at a scale that the United States wasn't 00:20:20.760 --> 00:20:21.910 used to. 00:20:21.910 --> 00:20:31.410 And as you point out, it was credited with being a planning 00:20:31.410 --> 00:20:32.850 mechanism. 00:20:32.850 --> 00:20:38.770 But given how anti-planning the United States has always been, 00:20:38.770 --> 00:20:43.260 I think it's more helpful to think about it as a development 00:20:43.260 --> 00:20:44.880 mechanism. 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.960 And we had-- and still have-- but we had then 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:53.550 lagging regions in terms of economic development. 00:20:53.550 --> 00:20:59.910 And the strategy was, let's make a massive investment 00:20:59.910 --> 00:21:01.920 in a lagging region. 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:06.840 Let's have all of the infrastructure-- 00:21:06.840 --> 00:21:11.370 roads that connect it to other places, water 00:21:11.370 --> 00:21:15.700 that it needs, electricity or hydropower that it needs-- 00:21:15.700 --> 00:21:18.360 let's have all of the infrastructure 00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:20.670 done simultaneously. 00:21:20.670 --> 00:21:26.580 And let's invest government funding at a large enough scale 00:21:26.580 --> 00:21:31.230 that it would then promote subsequent private investment 00:21:31.230 --> 00:21:38.430 and make it a sustainable place but with a much larger role 00:21:38.430 --> 00:21:42.090 for government-managed infrastructure. 00:21:44.850 --> 00:21:46.890 That never took off as an idea. 00:21:46.890 --> 00:21:50.250 We don't see other regions of the United States 00:21:50.250 --> 00:21:55.170 where lagging areas were targeted 00:21:55.170 --> 00:21:58.300 by an economic development strategy that said, 00:21:58.300 --> 00:22:01.560 let's have a massive public investment in all 00:22:01.560 --> 00:22:05.790 of the infrastructure, job creation, training, 00:22:05.790 --> 00:22:08.910 and let's not worry about state and local government. 00:22:08.910 --> 00:22:14.520 And let's do it at a scale that turns around a lagging region. 00:22:14.520 --> 00:22:18.630 Because smaller scale efforts to turn around lagging regions 00:22:18.630 --> 00:22:19.720 don't work. 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:23.470 So the way to understand the TVA story-- 00:22:23.470 --> 00:22:26.610 and there are many books written about TVA-- 00:22:26.610 --> 00:22:37.410 longing for a regional publicly managed massive infrastructure 00:22:37.410 --> 00:22:42.900 project that would stimulate the economy in a way that 00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:45.730 wouldn't happen otherwise. 00:22:45.730 --> 00:22:47.920 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:54.640 Also, in the IWRM literature globally, this TVA approach 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:56.140 is highly acknowledged. 00:22:56.140 --> 00:23:01.060 And it says that the TVA-like approach mushroomed 00:23:01.060 --> 00:23:07.540 all over the world for mainly agricultural development 00:23:07.540 --> 00:23:09.440 in the developing countries. 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:15.880 So that culture has been practiced also 00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:21.190 in other places, and regional development plan 00:23:21.190 --> 00:23:25.750 through incorporating for example power generation, flood 00:23:25.750 --> 00:23:29.230 control, and how this integration happens. 00:23:29.230 --> 00:23:36.100 And also the concept integration of multiple sectors in the IWRM 00:23:36.100 --> 00:23:39.910 also came from this TVA-like approach 00:23:39.910 --> 00:23:44.395 that is mentioned in the IWRM literature. 00:23:47.010 --> 00:23:50.670 Yeah, so before going to IWRM principles, 00:23:50.670 --> 00:23:57.200 maybe we can have a participatory discussion here. 00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:01.860 Why IWRM is important for water diplomacy in your opinion. 00:24:01.860 --> 00:24:03.800 I wanted to make it a breakout group. 00:24:03.800 --> 00:24:07.850 But as we are only five people, so maybe 00:24:07.850 --> 00:24:11.030 we can discuss why in your opinion-- 00:24:11.030 --> 00:24:13.760 also there was a memo on this. 00:24:13.760 --> 00:24:18.980 So maybe we can discuss here why IWRM is 00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:21.800 important for water diplomacy. 00:24:26.070 --> 00:24:28.900 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Well I guess first, do you think it is? 00:24:28.900 --> 00:24:35.850 What is it about integrated management of water resources 00:24:35.850 --> 00:24:42.060 that makes it an important element of dealing 00:24:42.060 --> 00:24:43.635 with trans-boundary waters? 00:24:47.770 --> 00:24:50.170 GEMMA HOLT: This is a little bit of low-hanging fruit. 00:24:50.170 --> 00:24:53.980 But one of the readings observed that it's the dominant paradigm 00:24:53.980 --> 00:24:56.360 for water management globally. 00:24:56.360 --> 00:25:00.430 So it is therefore important to diplomacy. 00:25:00.430 --> 00:25:03.990 But I think one of the other things that stood out to me-- 00:25:03.990 --> 00:25:06.540 and I wrote a little bit about this in my memo-- 00:25:06.540 --> 00:25:13.900 is just efforts to move beyond diplomatic silos. 00:25:13.900 --> 00:25:17.290 There was an example in the Liu et al. 00:25:17.290 --> 00:25:19.840 piece that really stood out to me about biofuels, 00:25:19.840 --> 00:25:23.240 and how the development of biofuels 00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:26.960 subsequently catalyzed or exacerbated 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:30.050 existing problems with water and food scarcity. 00:25:30.050 --> 00:25:34.880 So the need for a more integrated management approach 00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:38.970 felt urgent and necessary as we move 00:25:38.970 --> 00:25:44.140 towards perhaps greater scarcity in certain water systems. 00:25:44.140 --> 00:25:46.480 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: But how would that work? 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:50.140 Or theoretically, how might that work 00:25:50.140 --> 00:25:54.400 in context in which we do have siloed 00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:58.180 entities responsible for things like water? 00:25:58.180 --> 00:26:01.780 And if you say, well, integrated management 00:26:01.780 --> 00:26:05.870 is the key to managing water in the future 00:26:05.870 --> 00:26:09.730 so that you can connect water with energy, with food, 00:26:09.730 --> 00:26:10.750 with land? 00:26:10.750 --> 00:26:14.980 But that's not how those entities are set up. 00:26:14.980 --> 00:26:15.730 Gemma Holt: Right. 00:26:15.730 --> 00:26:16.600 Yeah. 00:26:16.600 --> 00:26:23.590 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Aren't we basically setting up systems 00:26:23.590 --> 00:26:28.000 to fail if we say that they have to be integrated in order to do 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.870 water management when we know that they're not, therefore 00:26:31.870 --> 00:26:35.080 what are we hoping for? 00:26:35.080 --> 00:26:38.120 GEMMA HOLT: That was a good question. 00:26:38.120 --> 00:26:40.600 I don't know if I have an immediate answer. 00:26:40.600 --> 00:26:42.027 I'll think about that though. 00:26:42.027 --> 00:26:44.360 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I'm not sure there's a right answer. 00:26:44.360 --> 00:26:45.310 GEMMA HOLT: Yeah. 00:26:45.310 --> 00:26:51.210 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: It seems to me that from a planning 00:26:51.210 --> 00:26:54.010 perspective-- urban regional planning perspective, 00:26:54.010 --> 00:26:55.890 not a water perspective-- 00:26:55.890 --> 00:26:59.280 there's always an argument for centuries 00:26:59.280 --> 00:27:02.100 that the way to plan cities effectively 00:27:02.100 --> 00:27:06.480 is to start with a clean empty area 00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:12.180 and have a designer make a comprehensive integrated plan 00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:15.030 so that the land is used efficiently, 00:27:15.030 --> 00:27:18.630 so that all the uses are appropriately laid out 00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:22.800 and separate from each other when that's appropriate, 00:27:22.800 --> 00:27:28.140 and that you don't have to have holes in the plan 00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:32.250 where there's private ownership or other things that happen. 00:27:32.250 --> 00:27:34.980 And you don't have to worry over time, 00:27:34.980 --> 00:27:37.740 because you just started building in one corner, 00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:42.630 and by the time it was done it was just a giant pattern 00:27:42.630 --> 00:27:44.710 of uncontrolled development. 00:27:44.710 --> 00:27:50.370 The idea has always been that you should plan whole cities 00:27:50.370 --> 00:27:52.110 in a comprehensive way. 00:27:52.110 --> 00:27:58.080 To me, IWRM has some of the same resonance. 00:27:58.080 --> 00:28:04.800 Now we know, in real life there are very, very few planned 00:28:04.800 --> 00:28:09.600 cities where the whole city was laid out 00:28:09.600 --> 00:28:15.060 and all of its evolution was guided by or controlled 00:28:15.060 --> 00:28:17.730 by the original plan. 00:28:17.730 --> 00:28:21.990 And it's very hard to have in a democratic context, 00:28:21.990 --> 00:28:27.510 and one in which there's private land ownership, continuity 00:28:27.510 --> 00:28:30.480 with a single plan. 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:34.590 And even in some parts of the world where historically there 00:28:34.590 --> 00:28:39.270 were efforts to plan whole new capitals, whole new cities, 00:28:39.270 --> 00:28:41.520 where they brought in a famous architect who 00:28:41.520 --> 00:28:47.260 made a beautiful plan for the whole place, over decades 00:28:47.260 --> 00:28:50.470 the place changes from what the original design 00:28:50.470 --> 00:28:53.900 was for all kinds of reasons. 00:28:53.900 --> 00:28:55.690 Not the least of which is people want 00:28:55.690 --> 00:28:59.350 to have choice about what things are going to look like, 00:28:59.350 --> 00:29:02.440 and what they can do with what their land is, 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:06.470 and what say they have in a democratic context. 00:29:06.470 --> 00:29:13.630 So just for purposes of pursuing further the question 00:29:13.630 --> 00:29:16.330 that I asked you, Gemma, is do you 00:29:16.330 --> 00:29:20.380 imagine that people in a democratic context 00:29:20.380 --> 00:29:26.560 can live, and work, and build in a way that's comprehensive, 00:29:26.560 --> 00:29:33.700 integrated, and planned when all the forces of democracy, 00:29:33.700 --> 00:29:37.390 privatization, individuality, and all 00:29:37.390 --> 00:29:42.960 the unexpected things that happen organically 00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:44.610 pull in the opposite direction? 00:29:50.692 --> 00:29:52.650 GEMMA HOLT: I mean, I think I have to say, yes, 00:29:52.650 --> 00:29:56.280 but that's my prerogative as a first semester urban planning 00:29:56.280 --> 00:29:57.150 student. 00:29:57.150 --> 00:29:59.340 If I've already given up on the field, 00:29:59.340 --> 00:30:01.020 then it may be too late for me. 00:30:04.120 --> 00:30:10.240 I think that some healthy skepticism isn't uncalled 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:11.140 for, I guess. 00:30:11.140 --> 00:30:13.540 I mean, I don't know. 00:30:13.540 --> 00:30:17.990 I guess what is resonant about IWRM, 00:30:17.990 --> 00:30:23.540 and the Water Nexus approach, and science policy interfaces 00:30:23.540 --> 00:30:27.960 more broadly as the potential to reimagine 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:30.480 existing diplomatic regimes. 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.840 But I don't know whether that actually will work in practice. 00:30:33.840 --> 00:30:36.210 So maybe it's just an intellectual exercise. 00:30:36.210 --> 00:30:39.343 But I think it's a useful intellectual exercise. 00:30:39.343 --> 00:30:41.010 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: But it's only useful 00:30:41.010 --> 00:30:45.490 if it inspires something in practice that can be done. 00:30:45.490 --> 00:30:45.990 Right? 00:30:45.990 --> 00:30:46.200 GEMMA HOLT: Yeah. 00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:47.658 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: It's not useful 00:30:47.658 --> 00:30:50.310 if it alludes to something in theory that 00:30:50.310 --> 00:30:54.370 can't be done in practice, and everybody's just thwarted 00:30:54.370 --> 00:30:58.900 and can't achieve what they're supposed to-- or the ideal. 00:30:58.900 --> 00:31:03.730 And just to loop back around again to urban planning, 00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:08.920 nobody in urban planning teaches about comprehensive planned 00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:14.050 cities anymore except as an intriguing historical artifact. 00:31:14.050 --> 00:31:18.160 Nobody would imagine that you would build a place according 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:22.450 to a plan at time one and expect at time two 00:31:22.450 --> 00:31:25.180 a decade, two decades, a century later, 00:31:25.180 --> 00:31:28.090 that the place is going to have anything to do with what 00:31:28.090 --> 00:31:30.130 that original plan was. 00:31:30.130 --> 00:31:34.920 And yet they still think there's planning going on. 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:41.682 The planning is about the process of adaptation. 00:31:41.682 --> 00:31:42.390 GEMMA HOLT: Yeah. 00:31:42.390 --> 00:31:43.848 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: The planning is 00:31:43.848 --> 00:31:47.280 to create the institutions to be able to modify 00:31:47.280 --> 00:31:50.620 what you're doing collectively. 00:31:50.620 --> 00:31:53.490 So it's still planning, it's just not 00:31:53.490 --> 00:32:00.500 planning to achieve a preordained comprehensive idea. 00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:03.290 And I would argue in the water realm, 00:32:03.290 --> 00:32:09.570 we ought to be worried about IWRM as an ideal. 00:32:09.570 --> 00:32:11.970 Because it presumes there are institutions 00:32:11.970 --> 00:32:15.930 with the authority, the power, with the knowledge 00:32:15.930 --> 00:32:20.850 to integrate across all of these multiple dimensions, 00:32:20.850 --> 00:32:25.170 in spite of the fact that we have created the silos that you 00:32:25.170 --> 00:32:30.830 alluded to, and that there are contending interests trying 00:32:30.830 --> 00:32:37.030 to pursue and maximize different outcomes that 00:32:37.030 --> 00:32:40.340 are good from their standpoint. 00:32:40.340 --> 00:32:42.940 So for the reasons I worry about comprehensive planning-- 00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:46.460 I worry about IWRM. 00:32:46.460 --> 00:32:49.710 DR. GAIN: So any other thoughts regarding IWRM? 00:32:53.772 --> 00:32:56.230 FLORA KLISE: I think something related to what we were just 00:32:56.230 --> 00:33:00.400 talking about is the interesting fact that in some ways, 00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:03.310 the IWRM is very broad. 00:33:03.310 --> 00:33:05.080 But then in other ways, a lot of people 00:33:05.080 --> 00:33:09.130 criticize it for not being broad enough, 00:33:09.130 --> 00:33:13.870 saying that the adaptive water management system needs 00:33:13.870 --> 00:33:20.620 to replace or augment the IWRM, because that is moving toward 00:33:20.620 --> 00:33:24.880 that can we not only create water management, 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:29.680 but can we make sure that this water management system is also 00:33:29.680 --> 00:33:31.720 going to be adaptable to the future. 00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:34.750 Because we have to assume that it's not constant. 00:33:34.750 --> 00:33:40.090 When we look at these extreme weather patterns, or changes 00:33:40.090 --> 00:33:46.780 in the nature of a conflict, some of these IWRM management 00:33:46.780 --> 00:33:50.980 scenarios are just not actively trying 00:33:50.980 --> 00:33:54.215 to adapt and become better to adjust to these changes. 00:33:54.215 --> 00:33:55.840 So in a lot of ways, people are saying, 00:33:55.840 --> 00:33:57.710 oh, the IWRM is not enough. 00:33:57.710 --> 00:33:58.720 What about the Nexus? 00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:02.690 What about this adaptive water management system? 00:34:02.690 --> 00:34:04.720 And so in my memo, I talked a lot 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.360 about how I think one of the readings 00:34:07.360 --> 00:34:12.125 tried to analyze whether or not you could replace the IWRM. 00:34:12.125 --> 00:34:13.750 And I thought it was really interesting 00:34:13.750 --> 00:34:17.739 that they touched on the social value of the IWRM. 00:34:17.739 --> 00:34:19.840 It's taken a long time to be adopted, 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:25.810 because a lot of the water policy water diplomacy sector 00:34:25.810 --> 00:34:30.969 is like, if well-respected water diplomats use a certain water 00:34:30.969 --> 00:34:33.070 management system, then it's more 00:34:33.070 --> 00:34:35.920 likely to be used somewhere else, not just 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:39.280 I guess how some business models or other sectors 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:41.770 might transfer a certain system. 00:34:41.770 --> 00:34:46.810 So I just think that the IWRM's value, 00:34:46.810 --> 00:34:49.780 the fact that it is water-centric is, I think, 00:34:49.780 --> 00:34:52.900 very like a strength of the IWRM. 00:34:52.900 --> 00:34:55.659 And then the fact that in the Nexus water 00:34:55.659 --> 00:35:00.580 is not considered more valuable or important than these other 00:35:00.580 --> 00:35:03.490 sectors that you're considering in the Nexus, 00:35:03.490 --> 00:35:05.650 whether or not it's the Food Water Energy 00:35:05.650 --> 00:35:09.280 Nexus, where every sector needs to be treated equally. 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:12.010 I think the fact that the IWRM puts 00:35:12.010 --> 00:35:16.450 the water as the most important entity, 00:35:16.450 --> 00:35:19.390 even though it is maybe creating some boundaries 00:35:19.390 --> 00:35:22.780 that the Nexus wants to get rid of, 00:35:22.780 --> 00:35:24.310 I think is still really valuable. 00:35:24.310 --> 00:35:30.670 Because if you get too broad, it's hard to make any progress. 00:35:30.670 --> 00:35:33.908 But maybe I've misinterpreted. 00:35:33.908 --> 00:35:34.450 I don't know. 00:35:34.450 --> 00:35:37.090 It seems the future needs to be more 00:35:37.090 --> 00:35:40.090 understanding, and expansive, and multicentric. 00:35:40.090 --> 00:35:42.760 But also, how do we make progress 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:45.670 if we can't get all those people to sit at the table 00:35:45.670 --> 00:35:47.635 and make an agreement in any regard? 00:35:49.725 --> 00:35:50.350 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 00:35:50.350 --> 00:35:56.360 I think in terms of theoretical aspect, of course, 00:35:56.360 --> 00:35:58.390 the IWRM is very interesting. 00:35:58.390 --> 00:36:02.950 But in terms of practice, this is the main limitations, that 00:36:02.950 --> 00:36:07.450 to implement this theoretical framework in practice, 00:36:07.450 --> 00:36:09.580 this is highly criticized. 00:36:09.580 --> 00:36:20.620 And this implementation through following the actual process 00:36:20.620 --> 00:36:22.150 of the framework-- 00:36:22.150 --> 00:36:29.830 I haven't seen any studies that really went through the IWRM 00:36:29.830 --> 00:36:31.520 implementation. 00:36:31.520 --> 00:36:34.120 So that is the main challenging thing 00:36:34.120 --> 00:36:39.640 that the implementation of IWRM is very difficult, 00:36:39.640 --> 00:36:45.730 and it's one of the unachieved goal of the IWRM. 00:36:45.730 --> 00:36:47.800 That's the main criticism. 00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:50.950 But in terms of the theoretical contribution that 00:36:50.950 --> 00:36:55.630 has been done, is I think is highly valuable at the broader 00:36:55.630 --> 00:36:56.440 level. 00:36:56.440 --> 00:37:03.730 But for implementing, it is kind of some kind of implementation 00:37:03.730 --> 00:37:05.380 oriented approach. 00:37:05.380 --> 00:37:06.820 That's how I see. 00:37:09.970 --> 00:37:11.410 Any thought around-- 00:37:11.410 --> 00:37:13.840 AUDIENCE: In practice, I mean I guess, 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:16.060 in practice I guess you would hope 00:37:16.060 --> 00:37:20.513 that negotiators would have enough or be 00:37:20.513 --> 00:37:21.430 able to bring enough-- 00:37:21.430 --> 00:37:23.650 I mean, this is obviously very dependent on what 00:37:23.650 --> 00:37:25.330 the kind of initiating circumstances 00:37:25.330 --> 00:37:28.870 are of any negotiation-- but have enough flexibility 00:37:28.870 --> 00:37:38.200 to draw upon various frameworks as needed and as 00:37:38.200 --> 00:37:41.170 beneficial to a specific dispute, 00:37:41.170 --> 00:37:46.060 whether or not they call it IWRM or not. 00:37:49.390 --> 00:37:52.990 The limitations of the IWRM whether it's in terms of scale 00:37:52.990 --> 00:37:56.530 or in terms of what's not included because of its water 00:37:56.530 --> 00:37:59.880 centric focus can be supplemented by drawing off 00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:02.660 of some of the other Nexus approaches 00:38:02.660 --> 00:38:06.400 as the others have said already, that if you 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:08.930 are in the process of negotiating a dispute, 00:38:08.930 --> 00:38:14.820 you ideally should be able to pick and choose to an extent. 00:38:14.820 --> 00:38:17.700 And not be totally didactic about how 00:38:17.700 --> 00:38:20.690 you apply these frameworks. 00:38:20.690 --> 00:38:23.403 But I guess, I don't know how you analyze it then 00:38:23.403 --> 00:38:25.070 if you're looking at it so holistically. 00:38:25.070 --> 00:38:29.810 But it's hard for me to imagine any one framework 00:38:29.810 --> 00:38:32.840 being able to wholly encompass all 00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:37.460 of the possibilities of a water dispute. 00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:38.960 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I think starting 00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:44.630 with a dispute is going to get you into a corner you 00:38:44.630 --> 00:38:46.910 don't need to be in. 00:38:46.910 --> 00:38:51.650 Start with the fact that you need to manage water. 00:38:51.650 --> 00:38:52.650 There's not a dispute. 00:38:52.650 --> 00:38:56.000 You just have water, and you have competing demands, 00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.470 and you have competing interests, 00:38:57.470 --> 00:39:00.030 and you have to manage the water. 00:39:00.030 --> 00:39:00.990 OK. 00:39:00.990 --> 00:39:06.750 What would be a good way to manage the water? 00:39:06.750 --> 00:39:13.800 To involve entities with broad authority or multiple 00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:16.650 authorities, or narrow-- 00:39:16.650 --> 00:39:24.190 just water, to involve only the most expert 00:39:24.190 --> 00:39:29.590 people to make the decisions, or to engage the stakeholders 00:39:29.590 --> 00:39:32.770 affected by the decisions so there's 00:39:32.770 --> 00:39:38.390 support for whatever the decision is to go ahead with. 00:39:38.390 --> 00:39:43.370 Would it make more sense to look just narrowly at the water 00:39:43.370 --> 00:39:45.770 that you have responsibility for, 00:39:45.770 --> 00:39:48.230 because you're within a political boundary, 00:39:48.230 --> 00:39:52.340 or would it make more sense to look at the water system moving 00:39:52.340 --> 00:39:56.300 underground or above ground that affects the water that you 00:39:56.300 --> 00:39:58.900 have responsibility for? 00:39:58.900 --> 00:40:03.550 Because the answers to those three kinds of questions 00:40:03.550 --> 00:40:07.600 almost always lead to people saying, 00:40:07.600 --> 00:40:11.690 broader, linked, more comprehensive, 00:40:11.690 --> 00:40:14.380 more participatory, more completely 00:40:14.380 --> 00:40:19.450 engaged, because it seems like a better way to manage water. 00:40:19.450 --> 00:40:25.180 Now, assume there's a dispute within that water management 00:40:25.180 --> 00:40:26.900 system. 00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:31.170 How would you expect it to be resolved? 00:40:31.170 --> 00:40:37.020 Well, if you had pulled in all of those actors, 00:40:37.020 --> 00:40:40.470 and all of those interests, and all of that knowledge, 00:40:40.470 --> 00:40:43.740 and all of that authority to manage the water, 00:40:43.740 --> 00:40:47.130 and there was a dispute within that, 00:40:47.130 --> 00:40:51.510 you'd probably have to engage all of those same elements 00:40:51.510 --> 00:40:54.720 in sorting out a dispute that emerged. 00:40:54.720 --> 00:40:59.030 It would be hard to say, oh, there's a dispute. 00:40:59.030 --> 00:41:02.210 Now all of you who were involved in the planning of this 00:41:02.210 --> 00:41:04.310 and the management of this, go away. 00:41:04.310 --> 00:41:07.280 And the three of us will solve this. 00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:09.130 It's not going to happen. 00:41:09.130 --> 00:41:14.480 So IWRM isn't a dispute resolution mechanism. 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:18.770 IWRM is an approach to water management. 00:41:18.770 --> 00:41:22.520 And when disputes come up, it's all 00:41:22.520 --> 00:41:28.680 tangled up in the dispute resolution process 00:41:28.680 --> 00:41:33.690 because of what it took to do IWRM 00:41:33.690 --> 00:41:39.210 as the planning-- as the management scheme. 00:41:39.210 --> 00:41:42.840 It was never meant to be a dispute resolution 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.330 strategy or mechanism. 00:41:45.330 --> 00:41:49.680 But it's tangled up with efforts at dispute resolution. 00:41:49.680 --> 00:41:53.700 Because it's kind of hard to shrink any of the dimensions-- 00:41:53.700 --> 00:41:56.790 the parties, the interest, the scope of the problem, 00:41:56.790 --> 00:41:58.680 the institutional powers-- 00:41:58.680 --> 00:42:00.780 for purposes of resolving a dispute 00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:06.690 that's come up within the IWRM process. 00:42:06.690 --> 00:42:10.500 AUDIENCE: Within models, I mean, could you differentiate and say 00:42:10.500 --> 00:42:13.800 the initial-- 00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:17.940 as you said, anyone who thinks through the three questions you 00:42:17.940 --> 00:42:22.320 asked is going to move out and say, broader, more inclusive, 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:23.670 greater scope for this. 00:42:23.670 --> 00:42:25.980 Could you differentiate and say, OK, 00:42:25.980 --> 00:42:30.090 the initial water management considered 00:42:30.090 --> 00:42:36.330 negotiations will exist on this macro level 00:42:36.330 --> 00:42:40.410 and incorporate many different facets of the economy 00:42:40.410 --> 00:42:43.950 and secondary, tertiary effects of water management. 00:42:43.950 --> 00:42:47.760 But then you say after that, you basically incorporate 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:49.830 dispute resolution processes that 00:42:49.830 --> 00:42:55.050 are hyper-local, that are specific to the area where 00:42:55.050 --> 00:42:57.480 the resolution-- where the dispute is taking 00:42:57.480 --> 00:43:01.920 place, and don't require completely remapping 00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:04.517 all of the old terrain? 00:43:04.517 --> 00:43:06.100 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: That historically, 00:43:06.100 --> 00:43:12.180 that's what the law and regulation have in fact done. 00:43:12.180 --> 00:43:14.310 AUDIENCE: Gotcha. 00:43:14.310 --> 00:43:18.660 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: We have a system of water rights 00:43:18.660 --> 00:43:22.500 that has nothing to do with IWRM. 00:43:22.500 --> 00:43:26.830 Just take California or take the Western United States. 00:43:26.830 --> 00:43:31.080 IWRM, you would plan that water in a certain way. 00:43:31.080 --> 00:43:36.800 But you can't in a system that's defined senior water 00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:41.360 rights, where people who got there first got the water. 00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:43.910 And nobody can tell them what to do with it. 00:43:43.910 --> 00:43:47.060 And they can waste it, they can do anything they want. 00:43:47.060 --> 00:43:52.400 It's completely contrary to the ideas of IWRM. 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:57.950 And until relatively recently, the whole water law 00:43:57.950 --> 00:44:02.480 around the world is not connected to water management. 00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:07.910 The rules of water law come down almost in the way, Aaron, 00:44:07.910 --> 00:44:08.930 you're describing. 00:44:08.930 --> 00:44:13.310 Just how can I localize this, and situate it in the way 00:44:13.310 --> 00:44:15.590 we deal with other property rights, 00:44:15.590 --> 00:44:18.660 and that's how we'll handle the dispute. 00:44:18.660 --> 00:44:23.410 But it doesn't fit with what we imagine 00:44:23.410 --> 00:44:25.780 is the broader scope, and the need 00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:27.550 to take account of more interests, 00:44:27.550 --> 00:44:30.790 and the desire to look at the interconnectedness of things, 00:44:30.790 --> 00:44:32.360 and the need to look ahead-- 00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:34.990 not back at who had what rights, but forward 00:44:34.990 --> 00:44:37.420 in terms of who has what needs. 00:44:37.420 --> 00:44:40.630 And yet we're stuck with it. 00:44:40.630 --> 00:44:46.710 So again, IWRM is a water management approach. 00:44:46.710 --> 00:44:51.070 It's easy to see how it evolved. 00:44:51.070 --> 00:44:55.430 And it seems perfectly logical. 00:44:55.430 --> 00:45:00.740 And it doesn't offer an obvious or easy way 00:45:00.740 --> 00:45:05.330 of handling disputes over water within systems 00:45:05.330 --> 00:45:07.970 that are managed by IWRM. 00:45:07.970 --> 00:45:12.110 And if you just try to solve this water disputes 00:45:12.110 --> 00:45:15.620 in a purely legal fashion that determines 00:45:15.620 --> 00:45:18.860 who has what senior rights, and hey, that's it. 00:45:18.860 --> 00:45:21.200 It's property. 00:45:21.200 --> 00:45:23.030 But that doesn't take account of water 00:45:23.030 --> 00:45:28.040 as a shared human resource or as a human right. 00:45:28.040 --> 00:45:30.110 And now, how do we solve disputes 00:45:30.110 --> 00:45:31.460 over the allocation of water? 00:45:31.460 --> 00:45:36.452 We can't use the property rights law. 00:45:36.452 --> 00:45:37.410 We need something else. 00:45:40.835 --> 00:45:42.210 AUDIENCE: Yeah, that makes sense. 00:45:44.228 --> 00:45:46.020 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: And Animesh, how do you 00:45:46.020 --> 00:45:48.550 react to what I just said? 00:45:48.550 --> 00:45:52.380 DR. GAIN: Yeah, so in terms of relation with IWRM and water 00:45:52.380 --> 00:45:57.030 diplomacy, I see that IWRM says, according 00:45:57.030 --> 00:46:01.110 to IWRM principal or dimensions, water 00:46:01.110 --> 00:46:05.670 should be managed in a transboundary, or watershed, 00:46:05.670 --> 00:46:09.000 or ecological boundary. 00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:12.150 So in that case, I can see the relation 00:46:12.150 --> 00:46:14.850 with IWRM and water diplomacy. 00:46:14.850 --> 00:46:19.020 Because when I say that water should 00:46:19.020 --> 00:46:22.660 be managed in a watershed or transboundary scale, 00:46:22.660 --> 00:46:32.840 that means it definitely crosses boundary of ecological boundary 00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:35.360 with the political boundary. 00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:39.680 And it can immediately creates institutional mismatches. 00:46:39.680 --> 00:46:45.855 And that can be managed through a-- a water diplomacy approach. 00:46:45.855 --> 00:46:49.760 So there's how I can see a relation with IWRM. 00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:52.130 So I can see water diplomacy can be 00:46:52.130 --> 00:46:59.810 useful for the difficulties that have IWRM implementation can be 00:46:59.810 --> 00:47:04.835 somehow implemented through incorporating water diplomacy 00:47:04.835 --> 00:47:05.800 approach. 00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:11.757 That's how I feel the relation of IWRM and water diplomacy. 00:47:11.757 --> 00:47:14.090 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Do you want to go to your next slide 00:47:14.090 --> 00:47:18.050 and look at the principles of IWRM 00:47:18.050 --> 00:47:20.575 explicitly in light of the general discussion we've had? 00:47:20.575 --> 00:47:21.200 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 00:47:26.420 --> 00:47:31.190 So these are just a historical perspective of IWRM. 00:47:31.190 --> 00:47:35.930 So according to-- so it is started from the UN conference 00:47:35.930 --> 00:47:39.740 on water in Mar del Plata in 1977. 00:47:39.740 --> 00:47:44.300 Then in 1992, Dublin conference, which 00:47:44.300 --> 00:47:49.820 is the main building block for developing the IWRM principles. 00:47:49.820 --> 00:47:54.710 And in this conference, these four principles 00:47:54.710 --> 00:47:56.850 has been considered. 00:47:56.850 --> 00:48:00.560 So the principle number one is the freshwater 00:48:00.560 --> 00:48:04.520 is finite and vulnerable resources 00:48:04.520 --> 00:48:08.090 essential to sustain life, development, 00:48:08.090 --> 00:48:09.300 and the environment. 00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:12.890 So here you can compare the thinking 00:48:12.890 --> 00:48:14.330 of the water diplomacy. 00:48:14.330 --> 00:48:21.440 So it's completely opposite of the thinking of the Dublin 00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:25.730 principle or water diplomacy framework considered 00:48:25.730 --> 00:48:28.940 water is the flexible resource instead 00:48:28.940 --> 00:48:34.330 of finite and vulnerable resource. 00:48:34.330 --> 00:48:37.550 So how the conflicting situation can 00:48:37.550 --> 00:48:43.790 be considered as the cooperative thinking 00:48:43.790 --> 00:48:48.510 that can be a major shift of thinking in terms of principles 00:48:48.510 --> 00:48:51.950 of IWRM and water diplomacy. 00:48:51.950 --> 00:48:55.430 So in terms of principle number two, 00:48:55.430 --> 00:48:57.590 water diplomacy and management should 00:48:57.590 --> 00:49:00.920 be based on a participatory approach involving 00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:06.950 users, planners, and policymakers at all levels. 00:49:06.950 --> 00:49:09.260 And another important principle is 00:49:09.260 --> 00:49:15.350 that women should be a part of the decision-making process, 00:49:15.350 --> 00:49:19.580 like prohibition, management, and safeguarding of water. 00:49:19.580 --> 00:49:23.510 Specifically considering the role of women 00:49:23.510 --> 00:49:28.550 in the developing country, how they are closely involved 00:49:28.550 --> 00:49:34.220 with the water resource management and services 00:49:34.220 --> 00:49:36.460 of the water resources. 00:49:36.460 --> 00:49:38.890 And the fourth and final principle 00:49:38.890 --> 00:49:47.230 is that water has an economic value in all its components-- 00:49:47.230 --> 00:49:51.540 recognized as an economic resource. 00:49:51.540 --> 00:49:59.080 So these are the four principles of Dublin conference in 1992. 00:49:59.080 --> 00:50:05.290 And then another event where IWRM was first established 00:50:05.290 --> 00:50:10.240 is Second World Water Forum and Ministerial Conference 00:50:10.240 --> 00:50:15.010 in The Hague, where it's considered that equity 00:50:15.010 --> 00:50:21.160 criteria along with subsidiary-- um, subsidies to poor. 00:50:21.160 --> 00:50:27.070 This is also considered as a principle of IWRM. 00:50:27.070 --> 00:50:30.910 And then it is declared in the International Conference 00:50:30.910 --> 00:50:35.290 on Freshwater in Bonn, 2001. 00:50:35.290 --> 00:50:39.310 And then World Summit on Sustainable Development 00:50:39.310 --> 00:50:43.270 in 2002. 00:50:43.270 --> 00:50:48.250 So now, based on these principles, 00:50:48.250 --> 00:50:52.030 IWRM has been, as you can see from the global water 00:50:52.030 --> 00:50:56.590 partnership definition that IWRM is considered 00:50:56.590 --> 00:51:04.120 as a process which promotes the coordinated development 00:51:04.120 --> 00:51:11.240 and management of water, land, and related resources, 00:51:11.240 --> 00:51:16.070 in order to maximize the resultant economic and social 00:51:16.070 --> 00:51:21.050 welfare in an equitable manner, and without compromising 00:51:21.050 --> 00:51:24.870 the sustainability of the vital ecosystems. 00:51:24.870 --> 00:51:28.850 So it incorporates theoretically multiple aspects, 00:51:28.850 --> 00:51:32.690 like it is considered as a planning process, 00:51:32.690 --> 00:51:37.400 as Larry already mentioned, and it incorporates 00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:41.420 the coordinated development, like TVA kind 00:51:41.420 --> 00:51:45.800 of development pattern, which incorporates not only water 00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:51.620 resources, but also water and related resources that 00:51:51.620 --> 00:51:56.120 are linked with water can be managed together 00:51:56.120 --> 00:52:02.900 for maximizing the economic and social welfare with an equity 00:52:02.900 --> 00:52:07.010 basis of considering the sustainability 00:52:07.010 --> 00:52:08.610 of the ecosystems. 00:52:08.610 --> 00:52:13.310 So that is the broader definition of IWRM. 00:52:13.310 --> 00:52:21.310 And probably, you have read in this criticism by Asit Biswas. 00:52:21.310 --> 00:52:30.160 And where he mainly criticized the Hague definition 00:52:30.160 --> 00:52:34.510 of integration, what issues needs to be integrated, 00:52:34.510 --> 00:52:37.680 and how it can be a process. 00:52:37.680 --> 00:52:43.510 And so, in terms of operational point of view, 00:52:43.510 --> 00:52:45.580 he identified this vagueness. 00:52:45.580 --> 00:52:48.410 And in terms of theory is fine. 00:52:48.410 --> 00:52:51.520 But in terms of implementation, how this can 00:52:51.520 --> 00:52:54.580 be applied in a given context-- 00:52:54.580 --> 00:52:55.630 this is completely vague. 00:52:55.630 --> 00:53:02.380 That's what his message is broadly regarding IWRM. 00:53:02.380 --> 00:53:08.270 So we tried to identify main dimensions of IWRM. 00:53:08.270 --> 00:53:12.910 So these are the [INAUDIBLE] dimensions that in our studies 00:53:12.910 --> 00:53:14.680 that we try to identify. 00:53:14.680 --> 00:53:20.650 So first [INAUDIBLE] dimension is integrated management. 00:53:20.650 --> 00:53:26.600 And the second dimension is the river basin or watershed 00:53:26.600 --> 00:53:31.290 should be the special skill for managing water resources. 00:53:31.290 --> 00:53:38.790 And water governance or institutional mechanism 00:53:38.790 --> 00:53:42.660 for governing water is very important. 00:53:42.660 --> 00:53:47.670 And involving a stakeholders and public participation 00:53:47.670 --> 00:53:51.750 is also one of the key dimensions of IWRM. 00:53:51.750 --> 00:53:56.340 And consideration of water as an economic good 00:53:56.340 --> 00:54:02.370 is an important consideration of IWRM. 00:54:02.370 --> 00:54:12.030 And also ensuring gender equity and social capital 00:54:12.030 --> 00:54:14.860 is one of the main dimensions. 00:54:14.860 --> 00:54:18.570 So these are the seven dimensions of the IWRM. 00:54:18.570 --> 00:54:24.600 And here I can see as I was mentioning, that river 00:54:24.600 --> 00:54:26.980 basin as a spatial scale. 00:54:26.980 --> 00:54:33.000 And to implement this river basin 00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:36.690 for water resources management, it certainly creates conflict. 00:54:36.690 --> 00:54:38.790 And for managing that, water diplomacy 00:54:38.790 --> 00:54:46.410 can play an important role for managing water resources. 00:54:46.410 --> 00:54:49.920 For integrated management, there are criticisms 00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:51.910 that needs to be integrated. 00:54:51.910 --> 00:54:59.500 And that also depends on the specific context. 00:54:59.500 --> 00:55:04.000 And a specific context by engaging stakeholders 00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:07.570 what issues needs to be integrated can be decided 00:55:07.570 --> 00:55:16.360 and can be considered in a negotiation table that 00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:20.560 can be part of the implementation part of IWRM 00:55:20.560 --> 00:55:24.110 through a water diplomacy approach. 00:55:24.110 --> 00:55:29.590 So that's how I consider that for implementing IWRM-- 00:55:29.590 --> 00:55:34.940 the criticism that has in the literature. 00:55:34.940 --> 00:55:40.150 Some of the criticism can be overcome when we consider 00:55:40.150 --> 00:55:41.770 the water diplomacy approach. 00:55:41.770 --> 00:55:43.180 That's just how I see. 00:55:43.180 --> 00:55:44.414 I don't know. 00:55:44.414 --> 00:55:46.750 Larry, what would be your opinion 00:55:46.750 --> 00:55:50.080 on the linkage between IWRM and water diplomacy? 00:55:53.580 --> 00:55:56.610 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Well, I thought your description 00:55:56.610 --> 00:55:58.540 was very reasonable. 00:56:02.070 --> 00:56:05.430 I start with the problems in practice. 00:56:05.430 --> 00:56:09.090 And maybe that's why I'm less tolerant of some 00:56:09.090 --> 00:56:15.840 of the fuzziness and some of the ambiguity in IWRM the way 00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:20.460 it's been written about and the way it emerged. 00:56:20.460 --> 00:56:24.360 I mean, calling water an economic good leads 00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:28.300 to the notion that you should get the prices right 00:56:28.300 --> 00:56:31.270 if you want to protect the environment, 00:56:31.270 --> 00:56:34.010 if you want to protect the water. 00:56:34.010 --> 00:56:38.420 But as soon as you start talking about getting the prices right, 00:56:38.420 --> 00:56:41.510 you're assuming water is a commodity. 00:56:41.510 --> 00:56:44.720 And if you think water should be a right, 00:56:44.720 --> 00:56:47.330 then the price is not relevant. 00:56:47.330 --> 00:56:52.160 And thinking of it as an economic good is not helpful. 00:56:52.160 --> 00:56:55.340 And some of you know I'm working on the problem of water 00:56:55.340 --> 00:56:59.120 shutoffs in American cities, where 00:56:59.120 --> 00:57:02.480 people who can't pay their bill for their water 00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:05.570 for a month or two have their water shut off. 00:57:08.260 --> 00:57:12.380 Well, they can't pay their bill because they're out of work. 00:57:12.380 --> 00:57:14.870 And telling them they have to pay their bill 00:57:14.870 --> 00:57:19.010 isn't going to make it possible for them to pay their bill. 00:57:19.010 --> 00:57:21.860 And then the next thing that the water department does 00:57:21.860 --> 00:57:24.680 is it calls the Family Services department 00:57:24.680 --> 00:57:27.110 and says, take the children out of that home. 00:57:27.110 --> 00:57:28.190 There's no water there. 00:57:28.190 --> 00:57:30.000 It's not hygienic. 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:32.300 So their kids are taken away. 00:57:32.300 --> 00:57:35.900 They still can't pay the bill. 00:57:35.900 --> 00:57:38.690 And then the next thing that happens is the city puts-- 00:57:38.690 --> 00:57:42.860 sells the lien-- it's an economic instrument 00:57:42.860 --> 00:57:45.300 on the debt-- 00:57:45.300 --> 00:57:47.340 because the city needs money to pay 00:57:47.340 --> 00:57:48.900 to maintain the water system. 00:57:48.900 --> 00:57:50.400 And if people don't pay their bills, 00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:51.483 it doesn't have the money. 00:57:51.483 --> 00:57:52.860 It can't maintain the system. 00:57:52.860 --> 00:57:59.120 So it sells the debt to private moneylenders, who 00:57:59.120 --> 00:58:04.170 then come after the person on a daily basis and saying, 00:58:04.170 --> 00:58:08.780 not only do you owe us the $900 from the last four months, now 00:58:08.780 --> 00:58:10.310 the interest rate-- and we've just 00:58:10.310 --> 00:58:13.130 increased it to 10% interest. 00:58:13.130 --> 00:58:16.810 They can't pay the debt, they can't pay the interest. 00:58:16.810 --> 00:58:19.230 And then after a year the city says, 00:58:19.230 --> 00:58:26.480 we're going to sell your house to recoup the mounting debt. 00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:30.410 We have all kinds of cities in the United States 00:58:30.410 --> 00:58:36.290 where the water authority sells liens and forecloses on homes, 00:58:36.290 --> 00:58:40.760 all because people couldn't pay the fee for water 00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:43.620 because they lost their job. 00:58:43.620 --> 00:58:48.870 Now, we have laws that don't allow the electricity company 00:58:48.870 --> 00:58:50.910 to turn off electricity in the winter 00:58:50.910 --> 00:58:53.490 if you can't pay your bill, because the presumption 00:58:53.490 --> 00:58:54.255 is you'll die. 00:58:56.990 --> 00:58:59.450 But we don't have comparable laws 00:58:59.450 --> 00:59:02.450 that say you can't shut off people's water. 00:59:02.450 --> 00:59:06.780 Now during COVID, very interestingly, 00:59:06.780 --> 00:59:13.070 we have had a moratorium on water shutoffs in some cities. 00:59:13.070 --> 00:59:15.920 Because now the presumption is, people 00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:19.520 have a good excuse for being unable to pay their bills. 00:59:19.520 --> 00:59:22.910 But before somehow, they didn't have an excuse, 00:59:22.910 --> 00:59:26.260 like they lost their job. 00:59:26.260 --> 00:59:28.390 This is all a function of thinking 00:59:28.390 --> 00:59:32.350 of water as an economic good. 00:59:32.350 --> 00:59:36.700 What if we said, every residential property 00:59:36.700 --> 00:59:38.800 gets a certain minimum amount of water 00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:43.330 that you need to stay alive that doesn't cost anything. 00:59:43.330 --> 00:59:46.600 And then all the water above that, 00:59:46.600 --> 00:59:49.615 you pay a price relative to your ability to pay. 00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:55.230 Well, we never had in the United States 00:59:55.230 --> 01:00:00.060 a system of water fees based on ability to pay until last year 01:00:00.060 --> 01:00:04.690 when Philadelphia passed the first municipal law saying 01:00:04.690 --> 01:00:07.630 that they wanted to move in a different direction 01:00:07.630 --> 01:00:11.710 and have people pay for some portion of their water 01:00:11.710 --> 01:00:14.380 relative to their ability to pay. 01:00:14.380 --> 01:00:19.300 And you can imagine the legal battle that's now ongoing about 01:00:19.300 --> 01:00:21.610 whether that's OK or not. 01:00:21.610 --> 01:00:27.400 But all of that stems from the idea that water is a commodity, 01:00:27.400 --> 01:00:31.170 and we should have to buy and sell it. 01:00:31.170 --> 01:00:37.290 In Australia, when it saw that it was running out of water-- 01:00:37.290 --> 01:00:39.960 fresh water, and had all terrible forest fires 01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:42.930 and other difficulties-- 01:00:42.930 --> 01:00:48.990 bought as a government all the water rights in one state 01:00:48.990 --> 01:00:56.620 back from the owners at a prevailing price per hectare. 01:00:56.620 --> 01:01:01.180 And then it paid back the money by selling back the water 01:01:01.180 --> 01:01:05.690 rights but on a different basis to people 01:01:05.690 --> 01:01:10.680 to try to have greater equity in the availability of water. 01:01:10.680 --> 01:01:18.000 So it built a whole system based on water as an economic good 01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:22.050 in order to address a common need. 01:01:22.050 --> 01:01:24.750 Where if we thought of water as a natural resource 01:01:24.750 --> 01:01:30.065 and as a common resource, pricing wouldn't be the focus. 01:01:33.930 --> 01:01:36.210 And we've tried to make a market out 01:01:36.210 --> 01:01:40.230 of everything in the Western capitalist countries. 01:01:40.230 --> 01:01:43.080 And so now we have problems of water 01:01:43.080 --> 01:01:48.270 being unavailable to different groups of people. 01:01:48.270 --> 01:01:54.050 And I worry that IWRM is about maximizing water 01:01:54.050 --> 01:01:56.750 as an economic good. 01:01:56.750 --> 01:01:59.150 That's one of the seven principles 01:01:59.150 --> 01:02:02.450 or whatever that you had listed-- 01:02:02.450 --> 01:02:06.460 water is an economic good. 01:02:06.460 --> 01:02:09.900 And there are several of the principles 01:02:09.900 --> 01:02:13.650 I understand completely where they came from. 01:02:13.650 --> 01:02:16.370 But when I look in practice, the problem 01:02:16.370 --> 01:02:20.450 is we have underinvestment in the capital 01:02:20.450 --> 01:02:26.280 improvements necessary to get water to people that need it. 01:02:26.280 --> 01:02:29.720 And there's not a way to solve that through integrated water 01:02:29.720 --> 01:02:31.070 resource management. 01:02:31.070 --> 01:02:38.430 That's a political, ethical, moral decision. 01:02:38.430 --> 01:02:41.700 So a lot of the conflicts, some of which 01:02:41.700 --> 01:02:46.080 don't rise to the level of a formal conflict 01:02:46.080 --> 01:02:49.380 because the poor, the disadvantaged, the marginalized 01:02:49.380 --> 01:02:53.250 don't have the political clout to make it a fight. 01:02:53.250 --> 01:02:57.840 But in fact, there's a conflict with very large numbers 01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:00.090 of people in different parts of the world 01:03:00.090 --> 01:03:03.180 unable to get adequate water, because there's no way 01:03:03.180 --> 01:03:08.130 to pay the capital cost to build the desalination plant, 01:03:08.130 --> 01:03:11.880 to build the water movement system to get water 01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:14.200 from one place to another. 01:03:14.200 --> 01:03:20.910 So that's what I worry about IWRM causing conflict and not 01:03:20.910 --> 01:03:24.330 providing a pathway to resolution 01:03:24.330 --> 01:03:28.956 of conflicts given some of the principles it includes. 01:03:28.956 --> 01:03:31.150 HUSNAIN AFZAL: Yeah. 01:03:31.150 --> 01:03:35.110 I had a different perspective to what you just said. 01:03:35.110 --> 01:03:40.390 For example, if a poor person in my country 01:03:40.390 --> 01:03:43.210 doesn't have access to clean water, 01:03:43.210 --> 01:03:45.880 he's installing a hand pump or something 01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:47.950 at the cost of $1,000 or something, 01:03:47.950 --> 01:03:51.670 it's an additional burden to his daily income. 01:03:51.670 --> 01:03:55.660 What if the state would have provided him a water supply 01:03:55.660 --> 01:03:59.830 network with a certain pricing, and the state 01:03:59.830 --> 01:04:02.680 had ensured that that water was clean enough to drink? 01:04:02.680 --> 01:04:07.030 For example, I in Pakistan can't drink water directly from tap. 01:04:07.030 --> 01:04:09.970 I'm not sure about drinking water directly from the tap. 01:04:09.970 --> 01:04:13.600 But here in my residence in Ithaca, 01:04:13.600 --> 01:04:15.400 I drink water directly from the tap. 01:04:15.400 --> 01:04:20.710 So by this, I'm saving money from the bottled water, 01:04:20.710 --> 01:04:22.780 and then I'm saving money for installing 01:04:22.780 --> 01:04:25.580 my own boiling system or pumping system. 01:04:25.580 --> 01:04:27.950 So if the state provided me with clean water 01:04:27.950 --> 01:04:29.950 with certain price in which they are maintaining 01:04:29.950 --> 01:04:32.690 the infrastructure, which is lesser than the amount 01:04:32.690 --> 01:04:35.530 which I am spending back home on bottled water 01:04:35.530 --> 01:04:40.780 and boiling water cost, like [INAUDIBLE] or something 01:04:40.780 --> 01:04:44.800 like that, then don't you think that the approach would 01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:47.380 be much better-- the water pricing approach would 01:04:47.380 --> 01:04:48.640 be better in this scenario? 01:04:54.310 --> 01:04:56.590 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: You're paying rent in Ithaca 01:04:56.590 --> 01:04:58.330 that includes water cost. 01:05:00.970 --> 01:05:03.970 And if you lived in Flint, Michigan, 01:05:03.970 --> 01:05:09.610 you would be paying not that much different rent, 01:05:09.610 --> 01:05:12.700 but you couldn't drink the water from the tap, 01:05:12.700 --> 01:05:17.110 because it's been allowed to become contaminated. 01:05:17.110 --> 01:05:18.970 And the city doesn't have the resources 01:05:18.970 --> 01:05:21.380 to rebuild the whole system. 01:05:21.380 --> 01:05:24.280 So we've pushed on to individuals 01:05:24.280 --> 01:05:27.130 the cost of getting water in some cities 01:05:27.130 --> 01:05:31.240 whether we've allowed the water to become contaminated. 01:05:31.240 --> 01:05:37.840 Maintaining clean water is, I would argue, a common cost 01:05:37.840 --> 01:05:41.480 not an individualized cost. 01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:46.720 While you can go buy water in bottles, 01:05:46.720 --> 01:05:52.030 we still expect the availability of clean water from the tap-- 01:05:52.030 --> 01:05:55.180 drinkable water that won't kill you-- 01:05:55.180 --> 01:05:57.670 to be a common cost. 01:05:57.670 --> 01:06:01.720 If it's a common cost, then we should collect taxes 01:06:01.720 --> 01:06:04.450 from everybody in a progressive way 01:06:04.450 --> 01:06:08.800 and take care of building the things that are common, 01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:12.930 like clean water system. 01:06:12.930 --> 01:06:14.400 So I know-- 01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:17.650 I heard the comparison you're making. 01:06:17.650 --> 01:06:21.630 But I would argue both in Pakistan and in the United 01:06:21.630 --> 01:06:26.130 States, that responsibility of local government 01:06:26.130 --> 01:06:31.790 should be to provide drinkable water for people 01:06:31.790 --> 01:06:35.750 as a capital cost that's a collective cost. 01:06:35.750 --> 01:06:39.960 And whether that cost is paid for from taxes, 01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:42.950 which could be collected in a progressive way, 01:06:42.950 --> 01:06:47.090 or fees, which typically are not collected 01:06:47.090 --> 01:06:48.920 in a progressive way-- 01:06:48.920 --> 01:06:52.430 they don't look at ability to pay-- 01:06:52.430 --> 01:06:55.370 I think we can have that debate about what's the fair way 01:06:55.370 --> 01:06:56.600 to collect the money. 01:06:56.600 --> 01:06:58.430 But once the money is collected, it 01:06:58.430 --> 01:07:02.180 should be used to get everybody a minimum amount 01:07:02.180 --> 01:07:03.710 of clean water. 01:07:03.710 --> 01:07:04.520 That's my argument. 01:07:07.465 --> 01:07:08.090 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 01:07:08.090 --> 01:07:11.670 And I think that also fits with the IWRM principle 01:07:11.670 --> 01:07:15.155 like social equity and yeah. 01:07:15.155 --> 01:07:15.655 So-- 01:07:15.655 --> 01:07:17.197 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Well, basically-- 01:07:17.197 --> 01:07:19.860 HUSNAIN AFZAL: And to add to your point, that I mean, 01:07:19.860 --> 01:07:22.080 if IWRM is a collective approach, 01:07:22.080 --> 01:07:23.950 it's not about governments only. 01:07:23.950 --> 01:07:27.450 It's about people also-- society, societal education. 01:07:27.450 --> 01:07:29.460 For example, if you're doing-- you just 01:07:29.460 --> 01:07:31.320 said-- used the word "contamination." 01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:32.460 Who is doing contamination? 01:07:32.460 --> 01:07:33.585 We are doing contamination. 01:07:33.585 --> 01:07:36.420 We are mixing sewage water with water. 01:07:36.420 --> 01:07:38.580 We are doing water taps. 01:07:38.580 --> 01:07:40.920 We are doing hole to the main water supply line 01:07:40.920 --> 01:07:42.870 to get more water for ourselves. 01:07:42.870 --> 01:07:47.100 That is something related to the societal education. 01:07:47.100 --> 01:07:49.980 If we do not educate people that water should 01:07:49.980 --> 01:07:52.230 be treated as a precious resource, 01:07:52.230 --> 01:07:54.260 that it should not be contaminated, 01:07:54.260 --> 01:07:56.230 it's like a joint responsibility, 01:07:56.230 --> 01:07:58.533 not the responsibility of government only. 01:07:58.533 --> 01:07:59.700 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I agree. 01:07:59.700 --> 01:08:02.220 I agree. 01:08:02.220 --> 01:08:04.030 You'll have to excuse me. 01:08:04.030 --> 01:08:09.060 I'm trying desperately to get the folks planning Glasgow 01:08:09.060 --> 01:08:12.150 to approach the problem in a different way 01:08:12.150 --> 01:08:13.830 than they did in Paris. 01:08:13.830 --> 01:08:17.790 And they have chosen this hour. 01:08:17.790 --> 01:08:20.640 At least I have a chance to talk to them. 01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:22.350 I'm not making any progress. 01:08:22.350 --> 01:08:24.210 This is the third try. 01:08:24.210 --> 01:08:26.970 But I feel obliged-- 01:08:26.970 --> 01:08:30.149 if they just meet in Glasgow and do again 01:08:30.149 --> 01:08:33.240 what they did in Paris, we are doomed. 01:08:33.240 --> 01:08:36.210 And there has to be a different discussion. 01:08:36.210 --> 01:08:38.370 And there's a group of us who are 01:08:38.370 --> 01:08:41.340 trying to promote a different global discussion 01:08:41.340 --> 01:08:42.750 on this question. 01:08:42.750 --> 01:08:44.670 So I'm going to disappear. 01:08:44.670 --> 01:08:51.149 But the conversation about IWRM is important, 01:08:51.149 --> 01:08:53.760 because you need-- each of you-- 01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:57.899 needs to formulate-- to take a stand, to formulate 01:08:57.899 --> 01:09:02.550 an idea, of how you think water should be managed, 01:09:02.550 --> 01:09:05.640 and how you think disputes over the management of water 01:09:05.640 --> 01:09:07.490 should be resolved. 01:09:07.490 --> 01:09:11.520 And I don't think either Animesh or I 01:09:11.520 --> 01:09:13.229 thinks we know all the answers. 01:09:13.229 --> 01:09:15.240 And I don't think there's only one solution 01:09:15.240 --> 01:09:17.609 for all places and all times. 01:09:17.609 --> 01:09:22.100 But we need to be thinking prescriptively. 01:09:22.100 --> 01:09:28.830 And if the best language we could say is, 01:09:28.830 --> 01:09:31.229 social needs are important. 01:09:31.229 --> 01:09:34.200 Common goods should be taken into account. 01:09:34.200 --> 01:09:37.380 Water should be managed in a comprehensive fashion. 01:09:37.380 --> 01:09:40.050 Look at the linkage between water and everything else. 01:09:40.050 --> 01:09:45.569 I don't think that inspires action or policy. 01:09:45.569 --> 01:09:47.920 I think it's too vague. 01:09:47.920 --> 01:09:53.200 So I'm pushing you to think in more explicit 01:09:53.200 --> 01:09:55.270 prescriptive terms, and then to be 01:09:55.270 --> 01:09:58.705 able to argue for it-- for that view. 01:09:58.705 --> 01:10:01.080 HUSNAIN AFZAL: And before you leave, can you just tell me 01:10:01.080 --> 01:10:04.000 the questions you are going to address in this meeting? 01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:05.000 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: Yes. 01:10:05.000 --> 01:10:07.760 What should be done before the meeting 01:10:07.760 --> 01:10:10.790 by the people who will be coming to the meeting 01:10:10.790 --> 01:10:14.310 while they can still formulate new policy choices. 01:10:14.310 --> 01:10:17.420 Because once you're at the meeting, all you do 01:10:17.420 --> 01:10:20.150 is argue about the text that's been sent out. 01:10:20.150 --> 01:10:23.840 And every 197 delegations have been sent there 01:10:23.840 --> 01:10:26.880 with very explicit instructions by their country. 01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:30.700 There's no problem-solving that can happen at the meeting. 01:10:30.700 --> 01:10:33.010 But before the meeting, everyone is busy 01:10:33.010 --> 01:10:38.060 figuring out what they want everybody else to do. 01:10:38.060 --> 01:10:42.560 There's no joint planning beforehand, 01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:45.290 because it can't be done in an official way. 01:10:45.290 --> 01:10:47.630 If it's done in an official way, then everybody's 01:10:47.630 --> 01:10:49.970 there reading the script from their country, 01:10:49.970 --> 01:10:52.160 saying everybody else is responsible, 01:10:52.160 --> 01:10:54.320 this is a problem, that's a problem-- 01:10:54.320 --> 01:10:55.430 nothing can happen. 01:10:55.430 --> 01:10:59.180 So we're trying to get a different kind of conversation 01:10:59.180 --> 01:11:03.710 amongst a substantial number of the people who 01:11:03.710 --> 01:11:06.560 will be at the conference representing 01:11:06.560 --> 01:11:08.750 their countries into conversations 01:11:08.750 --> 01:11:11.730 between now and the summer-- 01:11:11.730 --> 01:11:15.210 not in their official capacity, just 01:11:15.210 --> 01:11:16.740 in terms of problem-solving. 01:11:16.740 --> 01:11:19.830 And not just technical, the others as well. 01:11:19.830 --> 01:11:24.090 But people say, well, how would you decide who participates? 01:11:24.090 --> 01:11:26.100 And my argument is, it doesn't matter. 01:11:26.100 --> 01:11:27.660 They're not going to decide anything. 01:11:27.660 --> 01:11:29.880 They're just going to put forward good proposals. 01:11:29.880 --> 01:11:31.590 Let's just have a diverse group that 01:11:31.590 --> 01:11:36.150 wants to put forward proposals in the collective interest. 01:11:36.150 --> 01:11:37.860 Well, where would you have it? 01:11:37.860 --> 01:11:39.120 When would you have it? 01:11:39.120 --> 01:11:40.470 I said, it doesn't matter. 01:11:40.470 --> 01:11:42.060 We'd do it online. 01:11:42.060 --> 01:11:47.190 We just need to start work on new proposals 01:11:47.190 --> 01:11:48.690 of a different kind. 01:11:48.690 --> 01:11:51.630 And the question that I'm saying that the proposals should 01:11:51.630 --> 01:11:54.110 be about-- 01:11:54.110 --> 01:11:59.580 what help does your country need to get to net zero by 2030? 01:11:59.580 --> 01:12:02.450 Not what's your responsibility for cutting stuff. 01:12:02.450 --> 01:12:10.160 What help do you say you need to get to net zero by 2030? 01:12:10.160 --> 01:12:12.830 And collect that, and look at the differences 01:12:12.830 --> 01:12:15.260 amongst what countries say they want and need. 01:12:15.260 --> 01:12:17.540 And then figure out how different countries 01:12:17.540 --> 01:12:22.340 can help each other work toward that as the goal. 01:12:22.340 --> 01:12:26.040 2030 net zero, that's what we have to aim for. 01:12:26.040 --> 01:12:30.860 But now all we have is how much of the overrun will 01:12:30.860 --> 01:12:34.760 you agree to accept no matter what it costs you. 01:12:34.760 --> 01:12:37.335 And the answer is, you can't make me do it. 01:12:37.335 --> 01:12:39.490 And that's Paris. 01:12:39.490 --> 01:12:42.310 And we're going to get it again in Glasgow. 01:12:42.310 --> 01:12:45.880 So that's the conversation I'm trying to promote. 01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:46.900 Forgive me. 01:12:46.900 --> 01:12:47.530 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 01:12:47.530 --> 01:12:49.730 PROFESSOR SUSSKIND: I will see you all next week. 01:12:49.730 --> 01:12:56.810 DR. GAIN: [LAUGHS] So Mashroof, you wanted to say something? 01:12:56.810 --> 01:12:59.773 Maybe quickly, because we only have half an hour left. 01:12:59.773 --> 01:13:01.190 MASHROOF HOSSAIN: [INAUDIBLE] that 01:13:01.190 --> 01:13:06.380 is I agree with Larry's argument that there should 01:13:06.380 --> 01:13:10.760 be a minimum amount of water for every household 01:13:10.760 --> 01:13:15.330 or every person, instead of putting them extreme pressure 01:13:15.330 --> 01:13:16.580 through the capitalist system. 01:13:16.580 --> 01:13:18.270 This is I completely agree. 01:13:18.270 --> 01:13:22.940 But at the same time, in my country I've seen, 01:13:22.940 --> 01:13:26.780 and probably you have seen also, that when something is free, 01:13:26.780 --> 01:13:32.030 or whatever the amount that is, when something is free, most 01:13:32.030 --> 01:13:32.820 of the people-- 01:13:32.820 --> 01:13:35.330 and that is I have seen from my observation, 01:13:35.330 --> 01:13:38.810 and I'm sure that the research if anyone does it 01:13:38.810 --> 01:13:41.450 would give the same data-- 01:13:41.450 --> 01:13:46.300 that when something is free, there is a tendency to waste. 01:13:46.300 --> 01:13:52.090 And in Bangladesh or in a developing country, 01:13:52.090 --> 01:13:55.480 a huge number of people-- 01:13:55.480 --> 01:13:58.550 they would be not that rich to afford it. 01:13:58.550 --> 01:14:02.770 So the government would be giving them a massive amount 01:14:02.770 --> 01:14:05.210 of water in total. 01:14:05.210 --> 01:14:08.950 And if everybody wastes just a little, 01:14:08.950 --> 01:14:11.470 or the majority of the people waste just a little, 01:14:11.470 --> 01:14:13.600 that's a huge amount of water being 01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:15.603 wasted, just because it's free. 01:14:15.603 --> 01:14:17.020 And just because it's free, people 01:14:17.020 --> 01:14:18.880 do not value it that much. 01:14:18.880 --> 01:14:23.770 So I was thinking that how do we make a mechanism to stop that. 01:14:23.770 --> 01:14:25.660 Is there any mechanism at all? 01:14:25.660 --> 01:14:27.735 So that was my question. 01:14:27.735 --> 01:14:28.360 DR. GAIN: Yeah. 01:14:28.360 --> 01:14:31.630 I think that in terms of IWRM, in principle 01:14:31.630 --> 01:14:32.980 the mechanism is there. 01:14:32.980 --> 01:14:38.770 So we need to place a price on the water. 01:14:38.770 --> 01:14:43.000 And yeah, one equity versus the price 01:14:43.000 --> 01:14:49.270 could be different for different group of people. 01:14:49.270 --> 01:14:52.720 And that can help efficiency of water use. 01:14:52.720 --> 01:14:58.030 And just that is demand side management of water resources 01:14:58.030 --> 01:15:05.050 that is needed for increasing water use efficiency. 01:15:05.050 --> 01:15:09.790 So yeah, the mechanism is there in terms of theoretical aspect. 01:15:09.790 --> 01:15:13.130 But for implementing in Bangladesh 01:15:13.130 --> 01:15:17.890 or in specific countries is-- yeah, there are problems. 01:15:17.890 --> 01:15:21.850 So maybe now we can discuss Water Energy and Food Nexus, 01:15:21.850 --> 01:15:24.610 the still we need to-- 01:15:24.610 --> 01:15:28.660 so Water Energy and Food Nexus. 01:15:28.660 --> 01:15:30.820 This is another important paradigm 01:15:30.820 --> 01:15:32.680 of water resources management. 01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:35.170 Sometimes it's called separate paradigm. 01:15:35.170 --> 01:15:39.730 But sometimes it's within integrated water resources 01:15:39.730 --> 01:15:43.360 management, where the integration was 01:15:43.360 --> 01:15:44.700 big in the IWRM. 01:15:44.700 --> 01:15:48.100 And in this case, this central integration 01:15:48.100 --> 01:15:50.860 is explicitly mentioned. 01:15:50.860 --> 01:15:54.950 Like [INAUDIBLE] integration of water, energy, and food. 01:15:54.950 --> 01:15:58.060 But it could be also water, energy, food, climate, water, 01:15:58.060 --> 01:16:03.200 energy, climate, ecosystem. 01:16:03.200 --> 01:16:05.860 So it depends on the context. 01:16:05.860 --> 01:16:14.210 But thinking of the Nexus is it comes from system integration. 01:16:14.210 --> 01:16:16.960 So how the global systems are interconnected, 01:16:16.960 --> 01:16:23.230 and how the traditional silo approaches 01:16:23.230 --> 01:16:30.280 is diminishing the importance of system level outcome. 01:16:30.280 --> 01:16:34.180 And that's why the Nexus concept came. 01:16:34.180 --> 01:16:38.800 So for example, if I ask you what 01:16:38.800 --> 01:16:42.700 you have eaten in the breakfast, maybe a banana. 01:16:42.700 --> 01:16:47.440 And in that banana is not only food, 01:16:47.440 --> 01:16:51.820 but also it incorporates huge amount of water 01:16:51.820 --> 01:16:59.200 for producing the banana, but also transportation, 01:16:59.200 --> 01:17:02.170 and also from the agricultural field 01:17:02.170 --> 01:17:10.010 to coming into the food breakfast table, 01:17:10.010 --> 01:17:13.990 it consumes huge amount of energy. 01:17:13.990 --> 01:17:18.070 And if you don't-- 01:17:18.070 --> 01:17:22.120 if you waste that banana, then you 01:17:22.120 --> 01:17:28.240 can calculate how much energy and water has also 01:17:28.240 --> 01:17:32.020 been wasted from producing too. 01:17:32.020 --> 01:17:36.680 So this kind of thinking is the Nexus thinking. 01:17:36.680 --> 01:17:39.670 So if you can increase the efficiency of water use 01:17:39.670 --> 01:17:44.350 in one sector, that can also helps increasing efficiency 01:17:44.350 --> 01:17:47.980 in the energy sector and also food sector. 01:17:47.980 --> 01:17:52.120 And that's how the Water Energy Food Nexus 01:17:52.120 --> 01:17:56.560 concept came, not only in the household perspective, 01:17:56.560 --> 01:17:59.350 not only in the urban aspect, but also 01:17:59.350 --> 01:18:04.330 in the transboundary water resources management aspect. 01:18:04.330 --> 01:18:10.360 So the Nexus concept builds on many of this process. 01:18:10.360 --> 01:18:15.160 And it also incorporates this integrated process. 01:18:15.160 --> 01:18:17.740 But I already shared this article. 01:18:17.740 --> 01:18:20.860 Probably you have read this article. 01:18:20.860 --> 01:18:24.010 And it's interesting, because it clearly 01:18:24.010 --> 01:18:31.330 identifies the synergies and trade-offs of water resources 01:18:31.330 --> 01:18:33.700 management within Water Energy and Food Nexus, 01:18:33.700 --> 01:18:39.610 and how the incorporating Nexus thinking 01:18:39.610 --> 01:18:46.310 can help increase the efficiency of water resources management. 01:18:46.310 --> 01:18:49.630 So for example, this Nexus thinking 01:18:49.630 --> 01:18:54.880 can uncover synergies and co-benefits. 01:18:54.880 --> 01:19:02.140 The example that is given in the London urine separation 01:19:02.140 --> 01:19:09.640 technology that helps reducing 10% of water needs reduction, 01:19:09.640 --> 01:19:15.190 but also eventually this also helps 01:19:15.190 --> 01:19:17.500 reducing energy use in water supply 01:19:17.500 --> 01:19:22.660 by 10% and wastewater treatment by 25%. 01:19:22.660 --> 01:19:27.190 So by using simple urine separation technology, 01:19:27.190 --> 01:19:34.730 that this helps reducing water needs, energy needs, 01:19:34.730 --> 01:19:37.890 and wastewater treatment. 01:19:37.890 --> 01:19:41.900 But also it helps capturing nutrients. 01:19:41.900 --> 01:19:47.750 For example, 2,300 tons of phosphorus 01:19:47.750 --> 01:19:52.040 and 24,000 tons of nitrogen annually 01:19:52.040 --> 01:19:57.710 can be separated that can be utilized for producing 01:19:57.710 --> 01:20:02.990 a million tons of wheat in UK. 01:20:02.990 --> 01:20:09.170 So you can see how the synergies and co-benefits 01:20:09.170 --> 01:20:14.360 can be achieved by applying this Water Energy Food Nexus 01:20:14.360 --> 01:20:15.460 approach. 01:20:15.460 --> 01:20:23.670 But also, it can detect harmful trade-off. 01:20:23.670 --> 01:20:32.850 For example, in Egypt and Spain, the water demand comparison 01:20:32.850 --> 01:20:36.630 is 75% higher than Spain in Egypt. 01:20:36.630 --> 01:20:42.000 But because in Egypt, it considers 01:20:42.000 --> 01:20:45.100 gravity-oriented irrigation system, 01:20:45.100 --> 01:20:47.340 which requires much water. 01:20:47.340 --> 01:20:53.430 But at the same time, the energy consumption 01:20:53.430 --> 01:20:55.890 is three times lower than the Spain. 01:20:55.890 --> 01:21:06.990 Because in Spain, it considers not the gravity irrigation, 01:21:06.990 --> 01:21:11.700 but energy drip and drip irrigation systems. 01:21:11.700 --> 01:21:18.480 So if we convert the irrigation system in Egypt, 01:21:18.480 --> 01:21:20.520 then the water is saved. 01:21:20.520 --> 01:21:26.220 But at the same time, the energy and carbon dioxide production 01:21:26.220 --> 01:21:28.930 rate has increased significantly. 01:21:28.930 --> 01:21:34.410 So this kind of trade-off can be considered by considering 01:21:34.410 --> 01:21:36.240 this Nexus approach. 01:21:38.790 --> 01:21:46.080 And also, I think Gemma was mentioning about the biofuels. 01:21:46.080 --> 01:21:50.040 And here is the example of biofuel, 01:21:50.040 --> 01:21:54.030 how the increased consumption of biofuel 01:21:54.030 --> 01:21:59.010 is promoted as an alternative of oil and gas. 01:21:59.010 --> 01:22:02.430 But at the same time, it can create huge amount 01:22:02.430 --> 01:22:08.700 of water scarcity and food sustainability in the United 01:22:08.700 --> 01:22:12.780 States, but also in the other countries. 01:22:12.780 --> 01:22:16.050 So the unexpected consequences can 01:22:16.050 --> 01:22:20.220 be taken into account by considering this Nexus 01:22:20.220 --> 01:22:22.470 approach. 01:22:22.470 --> 01:22:26.960 So also in terms of integrated planning, and decision-making, 01:22:26.960 --> 01:22:29.900 and governance, this Water Energy Food Nexus 01:22:29.900 --> 01:22:31.860 is very important. 01:22:31.860 --> 01:22:35.100 Let's consider the transboundary aspect. 01:22:35.100 --> 01:22:39.170 So here in terms of Water Energy and Food 01:22:39.170 --> 01:22:42.800 Nexus in the transboundary context, 01:22:42.800 --> 01:22:47.240 if you see the relation between water and food. 01:22:47.240 --> 01:22:53.180 And for the food production, you must need water. 01:22:53.180 --> 01:23:01.060 And in the upstream, water uses for the agriculture 01:23:01.060 --> 01:23:03.780 affects also in the downstream. 01:23:03.780 --> 01:23:07.260 And this can-- so the water and food 01:23:07.260 --> 01:23:12.380 are highly relevant in that transboundary context. 01:23:12.380 --> 01:23:17.200 But also, food affect water resources. 01:23:17.200 --> 01:23:23.690 For example, it can through intensifying 01:23:23.690 --> 01:23:27.410 agricultural practices and land use changes 01:23:27.410 --> 01:23:32.900 by agricultural expansion, this can affect water quantity 01:23:32.900 --> 01:23:34.880 by changing the runoff. 01:23:34.880 --> 01:23:41.870 But also it can affect eutrophication and salinization 01:23:41.870 --> 01:23:44.960 and affects water quality. 01:23:44.960 --> 01:23:49.220 But at the same time, if you see the relation between water 01:23:49.220 --> 01:23:53.270 and energy, for the energy production, of course 01:23:53.270 --> 01:23:55.970 you need water. 01:23:55.970 --> 01:24:02.200 And energy production also affects water quality 01:24:02.200 --> 01:24:03.750 and quantity. 01:24:03.750 --> 01:24:10.060 For example, the hydropower production for energy 01:24:10.060 --> 01:24:15.100 affects on water quality in terms of changing water 01:24:15.100 --> 01:24:15.970 temperature. 01:24:15.970 --> 01:24:19.630 And also, so the water temperature 01:24:19.630 --> 01:24:24.820 can change quickly by storing water in a dam. 01:24:24.820 --> 01:24:28.690 And that can also affect changing the water quality 01:24:28.690 --> 01:24:29.620 parameter. 01:24:29.620 --> 01:24:32.350 So you can see that these linkages 01:24:32.350 --> 01:24:35.830 are important for transboundary context. 01:24:35.830 --> 01:24:39.850 In this study done by Keskinen et al, 01:24:39.850 --> 01:24:45.880 they tried to compare three transboundary areas 01:24:45.880 --> 01:24:51.310 in the Central Asia, mainly the Aral Sea, South Asian 01:24:51.310 --> 01:24:56.950 context, Ganges-Brahmaputra, and in the Mekong region-- 01:24:56.950 --> 01:24:58.450 the Mekong River basin. 01:24:58.450 --> 01:25:03.430 And they tried to qualitatively analyze 01:25:03.430 --> 01:25:08.080 this interrelation between the water, energy, and food. 01:25:08.080 --> 01:25:14.620 And the thickness of the line can 01:25:14.620 --> 01:25:19.120 determine how the relationship established, 01:25:19.120 --> 01:25:26.020 and what are the strength of the relationships are determined 01:25:26.020 --> 01:25:28.910 by the thickness of the line. 01:25:28.910 --> 01:25:32.740 For example, in the case of Central Asia, 01:25:32.740 --> 01:25:40.870 the impact of food on water is highly important there. 01:25:40.870 --> 01:25:45.670 But also impact of energy production on downstream water 01:25:45.670 --> 01:25:48.880 flow is also important. 01:25:48.880 --> 01:25:53.650 In the case of South Asia, the impact of-- 01:25:53.650 --> 01:25:58.960 the importance of water on agricultural production 01:25:58.960 --> 01:26:01.880 between the upstream and downstream is very important. 01:26:01.880 --> 01:26:03.010 So that's how they found. 01:26:03.010 --> 01:26:07.120 So this kind of qualitative relationships 01:26:07.120 --> 01:26:11.170 for water resources management within the Water Energy Food 01:26:11.170 --> 01:26:13.520 Nexus has been established. 01:26:13.520 --> 01:26:19.720 So in terms of how the Water Energy Food Nexus is 01:26:19.720 --> 01:26:22.210 important for water diplomacy. 01:26:22.210 --> 01:26:29.930 So as you have seen, that the identifying synergies 01:26:29.930 --> 01:26:34.690 and trade-offs beyond water and river basin 01:26:34.690 --> 01:26:38.050 management [INAUDIBLE] is providing 01:26:38.050 --> 01:26:42.100 a scope for water diplomacy. 01:26:42.100 --> 01:26:47.860 But also the mutual benefit and promoting value creation-- 01:26:47.860 --> 01:26:53.890 the Water Energy Food Nexus gave a clear value added 01:26:53.890 --> 01:26:58.210 for water negotiation. 01:26:58.210 --> 01:27:02.080 For example, hydropower-- linking hydropower, 01:27:02.080 --> 01:27:07.835 agricultural production, and water management can help 01:27:07.835 --> 01:27:08.335 saving-- 01:27:11.140 --> 01:27:15.550 that can help creating multiple benefits, 01:27:15.550 --> 01:27:22.120 and multiple co-benefits, and multiple value that helps 01:27:22.120 --> 01:27:26.350 water negotiation very easily. 01:27:26.350 --> 01:27:32.720 But also, Water Energy Food Nexus promote business idea. 01:27:32.720 --> 01:27:37.690 And that can also link into the negotiation table, 01:27:37.690 --> 01:27:43.120 and can help reducing the conflict, 01:27:43.120 --> 01:27:47.880 and can create a cooperative environment. 01:27:47.880 --> 01:27:51.700 So these are the ideas that Water Energy Food 01:27:51.700 --> 01:27:56.590 Nexus can support promoting the water diplomacy. 01:27:56.590 --> 01:27:58.075 That's how I see it. 01:27:58.075 --> 01:28:01.270 So here is a reference. 01:28:01.270 --> 01:28:04.400 I'll put them in the Canvas site. 01:28:04.400 --> 01:28:07.900 I found just recently, so I can share this article, 01:28:07.900 --> 01:28:11.020 so that you can have an understanding how Water Energy 01:28:11.020 --> 01:28:15.970 Food Nexus can be useful for water diplomacy. 01:28:15.970 --> 01:28:17.920 And also, how water diplomacy can 01:28:17.920 --> 01:28:22.780 help implementing Water Energy Food Nexus approach. 01:28:22.780 --> 01:28:28.150 Just quickly, sustainable development goals-- 01:28:28.150 --> 01:28:35.350 the sustainable development goal has been considered in 2015 01:28:35.350 --> 01:28:38.740 to meet the target by 2030. 01:28:38.740 --> 01:28:43.160 And in order to move from MDGs to SDGs, 01:28:43.160 --> 01:28:49.360 it considers 17 SDGs and with 169 targets. 01:28:49.360 --> 01:28:57.550 And SDG 6 is the ensuring availability and sustainable 01:28:57.550 --> 01:29:01.570 management of water and sanitation for all. 01:29:01.570 --> 01:29:05.710 And it incorporates SDG 6.5 that we 01:29:05.710 --> 01:29:10.940 need to implement IWRM through transboundary cooperation. 01:29:10.940 --> 01:29:17.710 So the goal 6.5, or target 6.5 specifically 01:29:17.710 --> 01:29:25.120 on implementation of IWRM for cooperation incorporating 01:29:25.120 --> 01:29:28.030 transboundary cooperation. 01:29:28.030 --> 01:29:33.820 So here is the linkage of SDGs and IWRMs. 01:29:33.820 --> 01:29:41.970 But also the way IWRM is considered as an indicator, 01:29:41.970 --> 01:29:46.680 it is kind of-- there is criticism 01:29:46.680 --> 01:29:49.590 on this, because IWRM is very broader concept 01:29:49.590 --> 01:29:51.360 and theoretical concept. 01:29:51.360 --> 01:29:53.940 But the way that IWRM is considered 01:29:53.940 --> 01:30:01.500 as even sustainable goals, there is strong criticism on that. 01:30:01.500 --> 01:30:07.170 Because it considers very vague way of putting numbers on IWRM. 01:30:07.170 --> 01:30:15.960 And how the measuring the progress is very debatable. 01:30:15.960 --> 01:30:22.080 But this is one of the major paradigm that internationally 01:30:22.080 --> 01:30:23.160 acknowledged. 01:30:23.160 --> 01:30:28.200 And that's why IWRM is very important. 01:30:28.200 --> 01:30:34.980 And also with relation to SDGs and water diplomacy, 01:30:34.980 --> 01:30:39.300 I see that many SDG goals are interlinked. 01:30:39.300 --> 01:30:43.720 And it can creates synergies and trade-offs. 01:30:43.720 --> 01:30:49.710 So for example, if I can make one SDG target of, 01:30:49.710 --> 01:30:52.920 for example, renewable energy production. 01:30:52.920 --> 01:30:56.430 And for renewable energy production, 01:30:56.430 --> 01:31:04.150 is not specifically defined which kind of renewable energy 01:31:04.150 --> 01:31:05.330 can be produced. 01:31:05.330 --> 01:31:13.690 So that can promote the idea of hydroelectric electricity 01:31:13.690 --> 01:31:14.290 generation. 01:31:14.290 --> 01:31:20.950 So that can also affect implementation of IWRMs. 01:31:20.950 --> 01:31:27.190 Because if you promote upstream water development projects 01:31:27.190 --> 01:31:32.380 for hydroelectricity, then this can affect relationship 01:31:32.380 --> 01:31:36.360 with the downstream countries. 01:31:36.360 --> 01:31:40.540 So these kind of synergies and trade-offs are very important. 01:31:40.540 --> 01:31:43.780 And that can be reduced, or that can 01:31:43.780 --> 01:31:48.050 be resolved through diplomacy approach broadly. 01:31:48.050 --> 01:31:51.460 So that's how I can see the link between the SDGs 01:31:51.460 --> 01:31:57.483 and the water diplomacy aspect in general. 01:31:57.483 --> 01:32:03.790 So that's we wanted to discuss today classes. 01:32:03.790 --> 01:32:07.000 So first, we already discussed the evolution 01:32:07.000 --> 01:32:12.790 of water resources management, how it came from the supply 01:32:12.790 --> 01:32:17.980 side approach to the demand and decentralized approach 01:32:17.980 --> 01:32:19.090 with an example. 01:32:19.090 --> 01:32:24.460 But then, we already discussed IWRM and its importance 01:32:24.460 --> 01:32:29.200 in the international water resource management aspect, 01:32:29.200 --> 01:32:32.890 and its relation with the water diplomacy. 01:32:32.890 --> 01:32:36.790 But also, we discussed Water Energy Food Nexus 01:32:36.790 --> 01:32:41.290 and sustainable development goals, and its relation 01:32:41.290 --> 01:32:44.400 with water diplomacy. 01:32:44.400 --> 01:32:46.920 Yes, so the next class will be the week after. 01:32:46.920 --> 01:32:51.480 And that class we'll play a role-play simulation, 01:32:51.480 --> 01:32:57.460 practically how we can resolve water conflicts. 01:32:57.460 --> 01:33:03.690 We'll play the game Indopotamia river basin management. 01:33:03.690 --> 01:33:06.000 And for the role-play simulation, 01:33:06.000 --> 01:33:08.520 we will need nine players. 01:33:08.520 --> 01:33:10.560 But we have six players. 01:33:10.560 --> 01:33:13.950 So do you know is there any of your friend 01:33:13.950 --> 01:33:18.090 could be interested in the role-play simulation? 01:33:18.090 --> 01:33:22.570 If you don't find, I will try to find three other players. 01:33:22.570 --> 01:33:29.610 But if you have interesting colleagues that 01:33:29.610 --> 01:33:33.870 are highly interested to understand the role-play game, 01:33:33.870 --> 01:33:35.770 you can let me know. 01:33:35.770 --> 01:33:37.540 Yeah. 01:33:37.540 --> 01:33:43.010 So another notice or announcement 01:33:43.010 --> 01:33:45.950 is that next week, Larry and me are 01:33:45.950 --> 01:33:49.620 going to talk on transboundary water resources management. 01:33:49.620 --> 01:33:52.400 Larry will discuss mainly the theoretical aspect. 01:33:52.400 --> 01:33:58.680 And I will describe the Brahmaputra River basin case. 01:33:58.680 --> 01:34:02.690 So if you are interested, you can join in this event. 01:34:02.690 --> 01:34:06.290 I can share the link for the presentation. 01:34:06.290 --> 01:34:09.660 It's the EU time. 01:34:09.660 --> 01:34:13.380 So it's the European time. 01:34:13.380 --> 01:34:20.140 So in US time, this would be 11 AM. 01:34:20.140 --> 01:34:21.730 Or yeah. 01:34:21.730 --> 01:34:26.740 So if you are interested, feel free to join in this event. 01:34:26.740 --> 01:34:27.844 Yeah. 01:34:27.844 --> 01:34:29.890 Oh, another announcement-- sorry, 01:34:29.890 --> 01:34:34.360 I wanted to put it in here. 01:34:34.360 --> 01:34:39.640 There is a discussion paper on Water Energy and Food Nexus. 01:34:39.640 --> 01:34:45.340 And there is a discussion series is taking place 01:34:45.340 --> 01:34:52.050 by one of our colleague, who is the editor of the journal 01:34:52.050 --> 01:34:55.350 Hydrological Sciences Journal. 01:34:55.350 --> 01:34:57.300 And in that discussion paper, there 01:34:57.300 --> 01:35:00.090 is a topic on Water Energy and Food Nexus. 01:35:00.090 --> 01:35:02.490 And people are interested, and if you 01:35:02.490 --> 01:35:06.240 feel is fit in your area of interest, 01:35:06.240 --> 01:35:09.450 there is a paper on water quality and Water Energy Food 01:35:09.450 --> 01:35:10.470 Nexus. 01:35:10.470 --> 01:35:15.700 And if you can criticize or comment on that paper, 01:35:15.700 --> 01:35:23.490 that can also be published if this is a concise and yeah, 01:35:23.490 --> 01:35:25.000 written in a scientific way. 01:35:25.000 --> 01:35:28.590 So I can share that link if you are interested in participating 01:35:28.590 --> 01:35:31.260 this kind of writing. 01:35:31.260 --> 01:35:32.140 You can let me know. 01:35:32.140 --> 01:35:36.250 I have the linkage with the editor of that journal. 01:35:36.250 --> 01:35:39.070 So I can share with you if you are interested. 01:35:39.070 --> 01:35:42.510 So the writeup should be one or two pages, 01:35:42.510 --> 01:35:45.930 but it should be written in a scientific way. 01:35:45.930 --> 01:35:47.730 Yeah. 01:35:47.730 --> 01:35:49.740 So I shared those two links. 01:35:49.740 --> 01:35:55.540 And also I will share the role-play simulation, 01:35:55.540 --> 01:35:58.470 what the general instruction, but also 01:35:58.470 --> 01:36:01.380 a confidential instruction for each player. 01:36:01.380 --> 01:36:05.630 I will share it with you in the next few days. 01:36:05.630 --> 01:36:06.540 Yeah. 01:36:06.540 --> 01:36:09.380 So bye.