1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,520 The following content is provided under a Creative 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:03,970 Commons license. 3 00:00:03,970 --> 00:00:06,360 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 4 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:10,660 continue to offer high-quality educational resources for free. 5 00:00:10,660 --> 00:00:13,320 To make a donation or view additional materials 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,140 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 7 00:00:17,140 --> 00:00:18,550 at ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:26,060 --> 00:00:28,700 PROFESSOR: Bob has got a really interesting history 9 00:00:28,700 --> 00:00:31,195 I think is relevant to a lot of things we're talking about. 10 00:00:31,195 --> 00:00:32,570 You're going to hear a little bit 11 00:00:32,570 --> 00:00:34,490 about disruptive innovation, you're 12 00:00:34,490 --> 00:00:36,773 going to hear about someone that's spent a lot of time 13 00:00:36,773 --> 00:00:38,190 on renewable energy, trying to get 14 00:00:38,190 --> 00:00:40,910 new technology to the marketplace, 15 00:00:40,910 --> 00:00:43,620 and about kind of the trials and tribulations. 16 00:00:43,620 --> 00:00:48,820 So I would encourage you to kind of really ask lots of questions 17 00:00:48,820 --> 00:00:50,816 and enjoy yourself. 18 00:00:50,816 --> 00:00:52,495 Bob, thanks very much. 19 00:00:52,495 --> 00:00:54,620 BOB DIMATTEO: And you can ask those questions right 20 00:00:54,620 --> 00:00:56,287 from the beginning, so I would encourage 21 00:00:56,287 --> 00:01:00,270 you to just raise your hand anywhere along the way. 22 00:01:00,270 --> 00:01:03,620 So when I was your age, I sort of 23 00:01:03,620 --> 00:01:06,170 wondered about why there were little kids in the world that 24 00:01:06,170 --> 00:01:07,820 didn't have clean water to drink. 25 00:01:07,820 --> 00:01:10,700 And that sort of bothered me. 26 00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:13,640 And it was that kind of thing really got 27 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,410 me interested in engineering and got 28 00:01:15,410 --> 00:01:17,690 me interested in clean energy. 29 00:01:17,690 --> 00:01:19,970 And it's hard to imagine like 30 years have 30 00:01:19,970 --> 00:01:21,230 gone by since that happened. 31 00:01:21,230 --> 00:01:23,300 I mean, you guys aren't even 30 years old. 32 00:01:23,300 --> 00:01:25,220 That seems like forever. 33 00:01:25,220 --> 00:01:27,170 So I'll tell you about MTPV. 34 00:01:27,170 --> 00:01:29,570 This is a clean energy technology 35 00:01:29,570 --> 00:01:33,230 that our startup company is developing to bring to market. 36 00:01:33,230 --> 00:01:37,190 And I'll also tell you something about my own personal journey 37 00:01:37,190 --> 00:01:38,660 in clean energy. 38 00:01:38,660 --> 00:01:41,690 And happy to take it wherever you want to go. 39 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,310 So maybe I'll do a couple of slides 40 00:01:48,310 --> 00:01:51,160 on sort of the technology, and then you'll 41 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,150 know where I am at the moment, and then how we got here, 42 00:01:55,150 --> 00:01:57,590 and then we could go from there. 43 00:01:57,590 --> 00:01:59,560 So our technology is called MTPV. 44 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,990 It stands for Micron gap Thermal PhotoVoltaics-- blah, blah, 45 00:02:02,990 --> 00:02:03,490 blah. 46 00:02:03,490 --> 00:02:08,560 It draws on nanotechnology, MEMS, and photonics. 47 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,710 And what really motivates us is that we think that it has 48 00:02:11,710 --> 00:02:14,110 the potential to change how we think about energy 49 00:02:14,110 --> 00:02:17,680 because it's a way of applying these very powerful 50 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,700 techniques-- the whole chip that we see in our iPhones and we 51 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:26,530 see changing so many aspects of our socio-technical life, 52 00:02:26,530 --> 00:02:28,000 if you will-- 53 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,830 bringing these kinds of capabilities 54 00:02:29,830 --> 00:02:32,020 to bear on the energy world. 55 00:02:32,020 --> 00:02:35,260 Which in some ways is, as you've been learning in this course, 56 00:02:35,260 --> 00:02:37,960 is in some ways, it's changed a lot, and in some ways, 57 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,780 it hasn't changed very much in the last 100 years. 58 00:02:40,780 --> 00:02:44,080 We still make heat from things that we get from the ground. 59 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,870 And then we do things with that heat, consume it as heat 60 00:02:46,870 --> 00:02:49,420 or turn it into electricity, et cetera. 61 00:02:49,420 --> 00:02:54,190 Our technology turns heat into electricity. 62 00:02:54,190 --> 00:02:56,990 And so we start with photovoltaic cells. 63 00:02:56,990 --> 00:02:58,240 You're all familiar with them. 64 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,270 You see them on buildings these days. 65 00:03:01,270 --> 00:03:04,510 It wasn't that many years ago when folks really didn't even 66 00:03:04,510 --> 00:03:07,150 know what photovoltaic panels were because you 67 00:03:07,150 --> 00:03:09,000 didn't see them around. 68 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:09,970 It's quite remarkable. 69 00:03:09,970 --> 00:03:13,000 In fact, when I was just about getting 70 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,210 ready to finish undergraduate work was just about the time 71 00:03:16,210 --> 00:03:18,040 that President Reagan took the solar panels 72 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,230 off the White House. 73 00:03:20,230 --> 00:03:23,380 Now they weren't solar electric panels. 74 00:03:23,380 --> 00:03:25,780 They were just they were just hot water panels. 75 00:03:25,780 --> 00:03:28,000 But clean energy wasn't-- 76 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,973 it wasn't the primary focus of too many folks 77 00:03:31,973 --> 00:03:32,890 at that point in time. 78 00:03:32,890 --> 00:03:36,970 MIT actually in that time frame had a solar house, even. 79 00:03:36,970 --> 00:03:38,620 Sort of modern architecture, lots 80 00:03:38,620 --> 00:03:44,450 of glass solar house that later came down about 15 years later. 81 00:03:44,450 --> 00:03:47,480 But now lots of things are moving in that domain. 82 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,300 So we start with a photovoltaic cell. 83 00:03:49,300 --> 00:03:51,790 You're familiar with the sun putting photons 84 00:03:51,790 --> 00:03:54,850 on the semiconductor material and making electricity. 85 00:03:54,850 --> 00:03:59,380 There's another field called thermophotovoltaics, 86 00:03:59,380 --> 00:04:03,160 or TPV, where we have an intermediate body which 87 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:04,930 receives the heat-- the heat can come 88 00:04:04,930 --> 00:04:08,860 from any conventional sources or solar. 89 00:04:08,860 --> 00:04:11,260 And this body at-- 90 00:04:11,260 --> 00:04:14,980 right now, what we're doing is around 1,000 degrees Celsius, 91 00:04:14,980 --> 00:04:17,610 things start to glow red around 600 degrees Celsius. 92 00:04:17,610 --> 00:04:19,070 So this is very hot. 93 00:04:19,070 --> 00:04:20,290 It radiates photons. 94 00:04:20,290 --> 00:04:22,330 It glows red. 95 00:04:22,330 --> 00:04:25,300 And those photons-- and then converts electricity 96 00:04:25,300 --> 00:04:28,190 by photovoltaic cells. 97 00:04:28,190 --> 00:04:32,590 So how many of you have heard of Planck's law? 98 00:04:37,290 --> 00:04:39,240 OK. 99 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,150 So Planck's law was sort of the foundation 100 00:04:42,150 --> 00:04:47,460 of quantum mechanics in modern science in the 20th century. 101 00:04:47,460 --> 00:04:49,560 And Planck's law tells you how many 102 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,880 photons come off a heated surface 103 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,620 and what wavelength they are. 104 00:04:56,620 --> 00:05:01,260 And so the photon flux, the number 105 00:05:01,260 --> 00:05:05,880 of photons coming off that surface per square centimeter 106 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:06,990 is given by Planck's law. 107 00:05:06,990 --> 00:05:08,190 And we represent that here-- 108 00:05:08,190 --> 00:05:09,990 1x Planck's law. 109 00:05:09,990 --> 00:05:11,790 And there were reasons that we thought 110 00:05:11,790 --> 00:05:13,290 that if you brought that real close, 111 00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:14,957 you could do near-field coupling and you 112 00:05:14,957 --> 00:05:16,080 could exceed Planck's law. 113 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,510 And it was somewhat controversial in the beginning. 114 00:05:18,510 --> 00:05:23,370 In fact, in a meeting with Hermann Haus, 115 00:05:23,370 --> 00:05:28,020 who was a real power house in electrical engineering 116 00:05:28,020 --> 00:05:32,610 and photonics-- unfortunately, passed away a few years ago-- 117 00:05:32,610 --> 00:05:34,590 the first time we came in his office with this, 118 00:05:34,590 --> 00:05:36,180 he said, forget it. 119 00:05:36,180 --> 00:05:39,690 He said, there's just no way to violate Planck's law. 120 00:05:39,690 --> 00:05:43,080 And about an hour later, he realized 121 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:44,670 that we weren't really violating it, 122 00:05:44,670 --> 00:05:48,750 that we were operating outside of the limits of applicability 123 00:05:48,750 --> 00:05:51,960 that Planck himself had put on the law. 124 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,160 Planck's law says that the geometry 125 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,620 of all the pieces of the system have to be large 126 00:05:58,620 --> 00:05:59,850 compared to the wavelength. 127 00:05:59,850 --> 00:06:02,280 And one of the geometric pieces of the system 128 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:04,240 is the space between these two surfaces. 129 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,810 So literally, the gap between the hot surface 130 00:06:06,810 --> 00:06:08,970 and the photovoltaic surface. 131 00:06:08,970 --> 00:06:11,280 In MTPV, Micron gap Thermal PhotoVoltaics, 132 00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:13,050 we put them really close together, 133 00:06:13,050 --> 00:06:21,660 like 100 nanometers apart, or 1/10 of a micron. 134 00:06:21,660 --> 00:06:24,750 And when you do that, you get near-field coupling 135 00:06:24,750 --> 00:06:27,180 and the photon flux, and therefore, the power 136 00:06:27,180 --> 00:06:31,210 out can dramatically go up by about an order of magnitude. 137 00:06:31,210 --> 00:06:32,940 And so he said, oh OK. 138 00:06:32,940 --> 00:06:35,400 He said, so you actually want to put the photovoltaic cell 139 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,460 into the near-field or evanescent field of this heated 140 00:06:38,460 --> 00:06:38,960 surface. 141 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,380 And we said, yes, exactly. 142 00:06:40,380 --> 00:06:41,400 He said, OK. 143 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,570 Well, maybe you can do better than Planck's law. 144 00:06:44,570 --> 00:06:49,020 And so really this is the field that we've been pioneering, 145 00:06:49,020 --> 00:06:55,200 using this mechanism which basically derives from the fact 146 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,930 that inside the hot body, there are photons 147 00:06:57,930 --> 00:06:59,910 generated in every direction. 148 00:06:59,910 --> 00:07:02,430 It's only the photons generated inside that come up 149 00:07:02,430 --> 00:07:03,720 to that surface-- 150 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,300 normal to the surface or nearly normal to the surface-- 151 00:07:06,300 --> 00:07:07,570 that actually get out. 152 00:07:07,570 --> 00:07:10,500 So in a hot body, most of the photonic energy 153 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:14,430 that's being generated all the time is trapped inside. 154 00:07:14,430 --> 00:07:17,910 But if you bring a surface up close enough to it, 155 00:07:17,910 --> 00:07:20,700 as those photons approach the surface, 156 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:24,030 a photon is-- as Professor Haus pointed out-- actually 157 00:07:24,030 --> 00:07:26,928 has extent, it has size of something 158 00:07:26,928 --> 00:07:28,220 on the order of the wavelength. 159 00:07:28,220 --> 00:07:31,830 So we don't usually think of photons as having a size. 160 00:07:31,830 --> 00:07:33,340 But they have an approximate size, 161 00:07:33,340 --> 00:07:34,590 something like the wavelength. 162 00:07:34,590 --> 00:07:38,100 The wavelength we're working with is 2 microns. 163 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:42,493 The gap here is only 0.1 micron, so this big 2-micron photon 164 00:07:42,493 --> 00:07:44,160 comes traveling up towards that surface, 165 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,190 and just goes right across this vacuum gap between the two 166 00:07:47,190 --> 00:07:48,930 surfaces, act as a photovoltaic cell, 167 00:07:48,930 --> 00:07:50,830 and then can become power. 168 00:07:50,830 --> 00:07:54,330 So it's all the photons that are impinging upon the surface 169 00:07:54,330 --> 00:07:58,470 off-normal that get into the photovoltaic cell 170 00:07:58,470 --> 00:08:01,800 here, in our technology, MTPV, that do not 171 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:03,320 get out of that hot body. 172 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,070 They're trapped inside the hot body there. 173 00:08:05,070 --> 00:08:07,590 And that's what causes this increase in power. 174 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,620 So why do we bother doing that? 175 00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:19,600 We think that there are a number of places of application-- 176 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,450 I think, in the course, you guys have contemplated-- 177 00:08:22,450 --> 00:08:25,780 or about to contemplate a number of different sources of energy 178 00:08:25,780 --> 00:08:28,820 as well as uses of energy-- 179 00:08:28,820 --> 00:08:32,260 so one of the application domains is vehicles. 180 00:08:32,260 --> 00:08:34,390 And we'll come back to this slide at the end 181 00:08:34,390 --> 00:08:36,490 to discuss it in a little more detail. 182 00:08:36,490 --> 00:08:39,940 There's solar energy, portable power, industrial, 183 00:08:39,940 --> 00:08:43,480 which is the first one that we're working on right now. 184 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,910 The other one not shown is building power, a cogen 185 00:08:45,910 --> 00:08:47,340 for a building like this. 186 00:08:47,340 --> 00:08:49,720 So the first one is waste heat. 187 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,010 There is lots of waste heat in lots of places. 188 00:08:54,010 --> 00:08:56,590 The focus right now for our technology 189 00:08:56,590 --> 00:08:58,840 is industrial waste heat, the kinds of things 190 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,910 that you see in these pictures, specifically a glass plant. 191 00:09:03,910 --> 00:09:06,920 These are the basic modules. 192 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,600 These are the chips of which you saw a schematic a moment ago. 193 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,630 So this is actually a chip stack. 194 00:09:13,630 --> 00:09:17,290 Each one of these is a pair of chips-- the hot chip 195 00:09:17,290 --> 00:09:20,060 and then below it, the cold photovoltaic chip. 196 00:09:20,060 --> 00:09:22,420 So we build them into arrays. 197 00:09:22,420 --> 00:09:26,020 And then we take these modules and we build those 198 00:09:26,020 --> 00:09:31,510 into arrays, like this, where we have a housing on the outside 199 00:09:31,510 --> 00:09:36,460 and then the chips go on a mounting and control 200 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:40,210 substructure, if you will, which is mounted inside 201 00:09:40,210 --> 00:09:42,070 of this hollow housing. 202 00:09:42,070 --> 00:09:46,750 So the hollow housing protects from the outside combustion 203 00:09:46,750 --> 00:09:49,900 gases, et cetera, allows the heat to go through the surface 204 00:09:49,900 --> 00:09:51,610 into the chips, makes electricity. 205 00:09:51,610 --> 00:09:52,690 And that's it. 206 00:09:52,690 --> 00:09:56,650 It's a very modular technology. 207 00:09:56,650 --> 00:10:00,670 And that's one of the promises of it, 208 00:10:00,670 --> 00:10:06,550 that it can be deployed-- we call it kind of noninvasive. 209 00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:10,480 And you've talked about disruptive technology 210 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,540 some in the class, which has become 211 00:10:13,540 --> 00:10:17,620 an important understanding in the business of bringing 212 00:10:17,620 --> 00:10:19,660 all technology-- and not even just technology, 213 00:10:19,660 --> 00:10:21,310 but products to market. 214 00:10:21,310 --> 00:10:24,190 And the idea of disruptive technology 215 00:10:24,190 --> 00:10:25,990 is the new technology comes along 216 00:10:25,990 --> 00:10:28,750 and it's not very good, technically, 217 00:10:28,750 --> 00:10:31,030 compared to sort of the incumbents that 218 00:10:31,030 --> 00:10:32,800 are on the market. 219 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,880 But it finds a niche where it can perform. 220 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,880 Often the niche is called noncompetition. 221 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,460 So developing a product-- you look for a place 222 00:10:42,460 --> 00:10:44,200 where there is no competition. 223 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,390 And this is an example of a place 224 00:10:46,390 --> 00:10:48,550 where there is no computation. 225 00:10:48,550 --> 00:10:52,510 This sits outside a coal mine. 226 00:10:52,510 --> 00:10:55,030 Coal mines nowadays, they go down in the ground, and then 227 00:10:55,030 --> 00:10:58,630 the coal-- and then the front, the digging front, if you will, 228 00:10:58,630 --> 00:11:00,610 the interface between the air and the mine 229 00:11:00,610 --> 00:11:02,320 and the coal that's still on the ground, 230 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,350 it comes down and then proceeds horizontally. 231 00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:10,130 And one of the issues with coal mines, as-- 232 00:11:10,130 --> 00:11:12,242 is there anybody who has not heard of a-- 233 00:11:12,242 --> 00:11:13,700 let's see how do we want to ask it? 234 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:16,653 Has anyone heard of a coal mine explosion? 235 00:11:16,653 --> 00:11:17,320 Raise your hand. 236 00:11:20,190 --> 00:11:20,760 OK. 237 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,820 So most folks have heard of coal mine explosion. 238 00:11:23,820 --> 00:11:27,640 So why the coal mines explode? 239 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,266 Any guesses? 240 00:11:29,266 --> 00:11:30,016 AUDIENCE: Methane. 241 00:11:32,872 --> 00:11:33,747 BOB DIMATTEO: Please? 242 00:11:33,747 --> 00:11:35,060 AUDIENCE: Trapped methane. 243 00:11:35,060 --> 00:11:35,852 BOB DIMATTEO: Yeah. 244 00:11:35,852 --> 00:11:38,230 Trapped methane, exactly. 245 00:11:38,230 --> 00:11:40,660 Whenever you're digging up coal, you also 246 00:11:40,660 --> 00:11:42,100 liberate trapped methane-- 247 00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:44,290 natural gas-- very explosive. 248 00:11:44,290 --> 00:11:49,660 And so they go through lots of ways of controlling the methane 249 00:11:49,660 --> 00:11:52,110 content in the air so that the coal mine doesn't blow up. 250 00:11:52,110 --> 00:11:53,360 But they do blow up some time. 251 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,570 And so what people have started to do is drill down 252 00:11:55,570 --> 00:11:57,250 in front of the coal mine-- 253 00:11:57,250 --> 00:11:59,800 there's this vertical face that's coming horizontally 254 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:00,580 under the ground-- 255 00:12:00,580 --> 00:12:02,750 they drill down into it like this 256 00:12:02,750 --> 00:12:05,340 and they liberate the methane in front of that. 257 00:12:05,340 --> 00:12:07,090 And then what do they do with the methane? 258 00:12:07,090 --> 00:12:09,590 Well, this is what they do with methane, believe it or not-- 259 00:12:09,590 --> 00:12:10,360 oftentimes. 260 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,120 I mean, if it's big enough, if it's stable enough, 261 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,870 then they will actually feed it into a combined 262 00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:21,260 cycle or some type of combustion system to make electricity. 263 00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:23,890 But first of all, the coal mine front is moving 264 00:12:23,890 --> 00:12:27,400 and steam turbines don't like to be moved. 265 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,980 And so that's why you see this very portable 266 00:12:29,980 --> 00:12:32,710 looking infrastructure here, that they actually move it 267 00:12:32,710 --> 00:12:35,668 as the coal mine is moving. 268 00:12:35,668 --> 00:12:37,210 And what they need to do is they just 269 00:12:37,210 --> 00:12:38,650 need to destroy the methane. 270 00:12:38,650 --> 00:12:42,670 So here is methane being destroyed in that inner pipe 271 00:12:42,670 --> 00:12:43,870 there. 272 00:12:43,870 --> 00:12:46,390 And the idea is to just take panels like this, 273 00:12:46,390 --> 00:12:48,670 and to run them down the middle of that tube 274 00:12:48,670 --> 00:12:50,710 and to turn that into electricity. 275 00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:53,950 And so no one's really doing this right 276 00:12:53,950 --> 00:12:55,780 now because of some of the reasons cited. 277 00:12:55,780 --> 00:12:57,880 You could do it with-- 278 00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:59,440 maybe we should ask the question. 279 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,850 So are some of you are familiar with steam turbines, or? 280 00:13:03,850 --> 00:13:04,510 OK. 281 00:13:04,510 --> 00:13:05,230 All right. 282 00:13:05,230 --> 00:13:09,100 So you could imagine putting condensers in here, 283 00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:11,440 gathering steam, and running steam turbines, 284 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,340 and making electricity. 285 00:13:15,340 --> 00:13:17,830 But the idea is if you had a module-- 286 00:13:17,830 --> 00:13:20,502 sort of like a photovoltaic module, but made out 287 00:13:20,502 --> 00:13:22,960 high-temperature materials that you could put in it, easily 288 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,290 move, that would be preferable. 289 00:13:26,290 --> 00:13:28,427 And the reason that this is sitting here 290 00:13:28,427 --> 00:13:30,760 in this picture the way it is because the steam turbines 291 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,050 are not feasible now. 292 00:13:32,050 --> 00:13:37,030 And so what we're going-- this is an example of noncompetition 293 00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:38,530 in the energy space-- 294 00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:40,270 and clean energy space in particular, 295 00:13:40,270 --> 00:13:43,540 because it would be a way of making electricity 296 00:13:43,540 --> 00:13:47,440 with zero net emissions relative to the status quo. 297 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,040 I mean, this is the status quo. 298 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:50,830 So those emissions are going out anyways. 299 00:13:50,830 --> 00:13:52,538 If some of the heat can make electricity, 300 00:13:52,538 --> 00:13:55,180 that electricity's zero net emissions. 301 00:13:55,180 --> 00:13:59,470 So this is an example of noncompetition. 302 00:13:59,470 --> 00:14:02,770 We go after that, we could not compete against GE's gas 303 00:14:02,770 --> 00:14:03,880 turbines right now. 304 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,650 The performance of our units are not good enough to do that. 305 00:14:06,650 --> 00:14:10,960 But they are good enough to do this in the near term. 306 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,920 And just as the original integrated circuit chips, 307 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,170 when they first came out, they didn't immediately 308 00:14:17,170 --> 00:14:21,413 displace tubes. 309 00:14:21,413 --> 00:14:23,080 But they got better and they got better. 310 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,480 And I think Hiram talked about the disruptive 311 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,540 example of the Sony radio. 312 00:14:28,540 --> 00:14:31,390 There were still tubes in radios for some amount of time 313 00:14:31,390 --> 00:14:34,420 after those chips were in those tiny little radios. 314 00:14:34,420 --> 00:14:37,720 And so you could kind of view our chips as an analog 315 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,580 to those chips and those transistors. 316 00:14:39,580 --> 00:14:42,585 And this is an application to the transistor radio. 317 00:14:42,585 --> 00:14:43,960 They had the transistor radio had 318 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,002 to be able to move into kids' bedroom, et cetera. 319 00:14:46,002 --> 00:14:51,040 Here, it has to be able to move with the front of a coal mine. 320 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:59,590 Another application similar is combusting volatile organics 321 00:14:59,590 --> 00:15:02,060 as they're loaded on and off of ships. 322 00:15:02,060 --> 00:15:03,610 So in the back here is a harbor-- 323 00:15:03,610 --> 00:15:05,313 this is down in Houston. 324 00:15:05,313 --> 00:15:06,730 In the very back, you can actually 325 00:15:06,730 --> 00:15:09,970 see a little tiny flare, which basically a flame 326 00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:13,210 sticking out of pipe, which is the older way of doing 327 00:15:13,210 --> 00:15:15,730 these things in which people have tried to eliminate 328 00:15:15,730 --> 00:15:18,580 because flaring of-- 329 00:15:18,580 --> 00:15:22,540 flaring of natural gas reduces the greenhouse impact 330 00:15:22,540 --> 00:15:24,815 by about a factor of 20. 331 00:15:24,815 --> 00:15:26,440 So if you have natural gas and you just 332 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,190 vent it to the atmosphere, and you compare that 333 00:15:30,190 --> 00:15:32,590 with burning the natural gas before you vent it, 334 00:15:32,590 --> 00:15:36,250 you reduce this global warming impact by a factor of 20 335 00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:37,720 by burning it. 336 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,480 So in a way, flares are a big advance 337 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,370 on just venting natural gas. 338 00:15:42,370 --> 00:15:45,140 But flares have their own pollution issues. 339 00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:46,900 And so what has become prevalent, 340 00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:51,820 particularly in the most developed countries at least, 341 00:15:51,820 --> 00:15:53,350 are enclosed flares. 342 00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:56,440 So this is a stack, basically. 343 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,710 And it encloses a flare like this flame. 344 00:15:59,710 --> 00:16:04,270 So as the ships are loaded here, the volatile gases 345 00:16:04,270 --> 00:16:07,418 that fill the tanks before the liquid goes in gets pushed out 346 00:16:07,418 --> 00:16:09,460 and it has to go somewhere so it doesn't explode. 347 00:16:09,460 --> 00:16:10,127 And where to go? 348 00:16:10,127 --> 00:16:12,010 It goes to this right here. 349 00:16:12,010 --> 00:16:15,400 It gets burned, and that heat is just liberated. 350 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,340 And so we are working with a vendor that 351 00:16:18,340 --> 00:16:21,580 would put our panels right across this tube, 352 00:16:21,580 --> 00:16:27,540 right in this flame to convert that heat into electricity. 353 00:16:27,540 --> 00:16:31,170 So it's another example of nonconsumption. 354 00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:33,590 I mean, these things are running all the time. 355 00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:36,940 And that heat is not being used because there's no good way 356 00:16:36,940 --> 00:16:39,260 to do it right now. 357 00:16:39,260 --> 00:16:41,860 And this is just another example of the same module 358 00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:42,670 that you saw. 359 00:16:42,670 --> 00:16:44,620 Bigger panels-- this is the kind of panel 360 00:16:44,620 --> 00:16:49,300 that might go into a glass factory, which 361 00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:50,570 is depicted here. 362 00:16:50,570 --> 00:16:55,090 So natural gas comes in here, it burns, it melts sand, and lime, 363 00:16:55,090 --> 00:16:57,910 and things, which get pushed into this big furnace 364 00:16:57,910 --> 00:16:59,110 with bulldozers-- 365 00:16:59,110 --> 00:17:00,940 literally, it's quite amazing. 366 00:17:00,940 --> 00:17:04,569 And they melt it and it becomes like volcano lava, 367 00:17:04,569 --> 00:17:06,310 sort of, in here-- it's actually glass. 368 00:17:06,310 --> 00:17:08,707 And then out the other end, it slows down 369 00:17:08,707 --> 00:17:10,540 and becomes plate glass like for the windows 370 00:17:10,540 --> 00:17:12,470 up there, et cetera. 371 00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:14,710 And so this is the exhaust duct. 372 00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:20,020 The exhaust comes up here, and right now, a type of furnace 373 00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:24,490 called oxyfuel furnaces where oxygen is taken out of the air 374 00:17:24,490 --> 00:17:27,130 and put it to the furnace, they create the heat. 375 00:17:27,130 --> 00:17:28,948 The heat just goes up the stacks. 376 00:17:28,948 --> 00:17:31,490 Our panels would go in there and convert that to electricity. 377 00:17:31,490 --> 00:17:38,440 That's actually the first application that we have-- 378 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,655 that we are working on developing. 379 00:17:43,770 --> 00:17:47,430 So I'm thinking about pausing at some point. 380 00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:50,820 And I guess one question is, how many of you 381 00:17:50,820 --> 00:17:53,284 are not electrical engineers? 382 00:17:56,110 --> 00:17:56,610 OK. 383 00:17:56,610 --> 00:17:57,780 AUDIENCE: Lots of chemicals and mechanics. 384 00:17:57,780 --> 00:17:58,488 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 385 00:17:58,488 --> 00:18:01,950 How many of you are not chemical engineers? 386 00:18:01,950 --> 00:18:02,450 OK. 387 00:18:02,450 --> 00:18:06,250 And how many of you are not mechanical engineers? 388 00:18:06,250 --> 00:18:07,800 How many of you are bio-folks? 389 00:18:10,330 --> 00:18:11,200 OK. 390 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,490 All right. 391 00:18:13,490 --> 00:18:14,800 OK. 392 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,960 And I know we have some DUSP, and some poli-sci folks, 393 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,110 and ocean engineer folks today. 394 00:18:20,110 --> 00:18:24,850 So OK. 395 00:18:24,850 --> 00:18:27,280 So this right here is an actual picture 396 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,650 of the same kind of furnace that you saw-- actually, 397 00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:30,787 the exhaust port of it. 398 00:18:30,787 --> 00:18:32,870 And this is the same kind of housing that you saw. 399 00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:35,440 And this is some initial testing that we 400 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,850 were doing moving the panels in and out of this facility. 401 00:18:39,850 --> 00:18:42,700 This is an earlier version before we came to this-- 402 00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:46,060 what we call product platform, which is the basic architecture 403 00:18:46,060 --> 00:18:49,899 that we've been talking about to date. 404 00:18:49,899 --> 00:18:52,066 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Do you want to say a little bit 405 00:18:52,066 --> 00:18:54,451 about the journey that got you from an undergraduate 406 00:18:54,451 --> 00:18:55,888 interested in energy to this? 407 00:18:55,888 --> 00:18:56,680 BOB DIMATTEO: Sure. 408 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,930 Yeah. 409 00:18:58,930 --> 00:19:00,530 I'd be happy to do that. 410 00:19:00,530 --> 00:19:03,110 Yep. 411 00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:05,920 I initially kind of got interested in this kind 412 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,330 of market here. 413 00:19:07,330 --> 00:19:11,980 And how many of you think you might someday start a company 414 00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:13,465 or be part of starting a company? 415 00:19:16,740 --> 00:19:19,740 Wow, that's a lot. 416 00:19:19,740 --> 00:19:23,040 That's more than-- well more than half the class. 417 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:23,540 OK. 418 00:19:23,540 --> 00:19:24,748 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] energy. 419 00:19:26,848 --> 00:19:28,640 BOB DIMATTEO: So what are some of the ideas 420 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:29,600 you're thinking about, just to get 421 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,100 a few examples on the table? 422 00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:32,882 Samuel? 423 00:19:32,882 --> 00:19:35,533 AUDIENCE: Well, I think solar thermal fuels could be cool. 424 00:19:35,533 --> 00:19:36,950 BOB DIMATTEO: Solar thermal fuels. 425 00:19:36,950 --> 00:19:37,730 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 426 00:19:37,730 --> 00:19:40,700 BOB DIMATTEO: So building like liquid or gaseous fuels out 427 00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:41,960 of solar thermal energy? 428 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,550 AUDIENCE: Yeah, like finding some molecule which 429 00:19:43,550 --> 00:19:45,250 can like-- acts as like a photoconverter 430 00:19:45,250 --> 00:19:48,272 and take the sun's energy and store it as chemical bonds. 431 00:19:48,272 --> 00:19:48,980 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 432 00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:49,480 OK. 433 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,200 Sort of artificial photosynthesis? 434 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:51,932 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 435 00:19:51,932 --> 00:19:52,640 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 436 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:53,150 All right. 437 00:19:53,150 --> 00:19:54,950 Cool. 438 00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:56,210 Somebody else? 439 00:19:56,210 --> 00:19:59,630 A lot of hands went up for starting companies, 440 00:19:59,630 --> 00:20:01,369 including energy companies. 441 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,180 Oh come on. 442 00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:07,690 Yes. 443 00:20:07,690 --> 00:20:08,515 Back there. 444 00:20:08,515 --> 00:20:09,650 AUDIENCE: Biotechnology. 445 00:20:09,650 --> 00:20:10,900 BOB DIMATTEO: Biotechnologies. 446 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:12,700 OK. 447 00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:16,697 Can you say, in the energy context or different than that? 448 00:20:16,697 --> 00:20:18,280 AUDIENCE: Probably not energy context. 449 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:19,480 BOB DIMATTEO: In the energy-- 450 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:20,526 AUDIENCE: No, probably not. 451 00:20:20,526 --> 00:20:21,651 BOB DIMATTEO: Probably not. 452 00:20:21,651 --> 00:20:22,490 OK. 453 00:20:22,490 --> 00:20:23,990 What realm? 454 00:20:23,990 --> 00:20:24,735 Medicine, or? 455 00:20:24,735 --> 00:20:25,360 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 456 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:28,000 Probably something to do with medicine and pharmaceuticals. 457 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:28,920 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 458 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:30,770 OK. 459 00:20:30,770 --> 00:20:31,390 OK. 460 00:20:31,390 --> 00:20:34,310 Someone else-- either energy or not energy. 461 00:20:34,310 --> 00:20:36,030 Let's see, who else had their hands up? 462 00:20:38,860 --> 00:20:42,790 Engineers are so engaging. 463 00:20:42,790 --> 00:20:45,610 [LAUGHTER] 464 00:20:45,610 --> 00:20:46,390 I love them. 465 00:20:46,390 --> 00:20:49,255 I spend my whole life with them. 466 00:20:49,255 --> 00:20:51,213 AUDIENCE: A lot of folks defeat the stereotype. 467 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:55,660 BOB DIMATTEO: So what else? 468 00:20:55,660 --> 00:20:57,118 Even if you're not interested in it 469 00:20:57,118 --> 00:21:00,340 yourself, something you know that somebody else might start? 470 00:21:00,340 --> 00:21:01,330 Christopher, yes? 471 00:21:01,330 --> 00:21:01,955 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 472 00:21:01,955 --> 00:21:08,252 A system for converting hydrogen into ammonia for fertilizer. 473 00:21:08,252 --> 00:21:09,460 BOB DIMATTEO: Oh interesting. 474 00:21:09,460 --> 00:21:11,460 AUDIENCE: Because like I'm originally from Iowa, 475 00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:14,260 and most of the things we have a lot of is water and wind. 476 00:21:14,260 --> 00:21:18,325 And wind energy electrolysis to produce hydrogen, 477 00:21:18,325 --> 00:21:20,800 and using that to produce ammonia because we also have 478 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,488 a lot of farms in the area. 479 00:21:23,488 --> 00:21:25,030 BOB DIMATTEO: So then that fertilizer 480 00:21:25,030 --> 00:21:26,745 would go into the food production then. 481 00:21:26,745 --> 00:21:27,370 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 482 00:21:27,370 --> 00:21:30,905 Because wind energy, a lot of times where the windmills are 483 00:21:30,905 --> 00:21:33,070 is far away from where the electricity is consumed 484 00:21:33,070 --> 00:21:34,905 and you lose a lot to resistance. 485 00:21:34,905 --> 00:21:36,280 And so would be economically more 486 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,110 efficient to produce ammonia out of it. 487 00:21:38,110 --> 00:21:42,970 BOB DIMATTEO: That is a really cool solution 488 00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:44,890 to having to ship-- build big grids 489 00:21:44,890 --> 00:21:46,460 and ship the power all around. 490 00:21:46,460 --> 00:21:49,270 So there's wind in Iowa, and there are farms in Iowa-- 491 00:21:49,270 --> 00:21:52,437 wow, that's neat. 492 00:21:52,437 --> 00:21:53,020 Somebody else? 493 00:21:56,890 --> 00:21:57,390 All right. 494 00:21:57,390 --> 00:21:58,110 Let's see. 495 00:21:58,110 --> 00:22:00,300 So who has not-- 496 00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:02,100 who is thinking-- who is not thinking 497 00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:03,260 about starting a business? 498 00:22:08,463 --> 00:22:09,200 All right. 499 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,200 So do you mind if I just call on a couple of you 500 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,495 to say what you're thinking about? 501 00:22:14,495 --> 00:22:14,995 Latifa? 502 00:22:18,252 --> 00:22:21,100 AUDIENCE: I have no idea. 503 00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:23,830 BOB DIMATTEO: But you think you might start a business. 504 00:22:23,830 --> 00:22:26,122 AUDIENCE: I mean, maybe, if the right idea comes along. 505 00:22:26,122 --> 00:22:28,900 I mean, [INAUDIBLE]. 506 00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:30,730 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 507 00:22:30,730 --> 00:22:31,360 OK. 508 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:32,170 Yeah, Scott? 509 00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:34,120 AUDIENCE: I think for myself, and I'm 510 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:36,222 guessing for a lot of people in the room, 511 00:22:36,222 --> 00:22:37,930 I want to start a business at some point, 512 00:22:37,930 --> 00:22:39,805 but I don't have any good ideas yet, which is 513 00:22:39,805 --> 00:22:41,562 why I haven't pursued that yet. 514 00:22:41,562 --> 00:22:43,790 So I think that like a lot of people at MIT 515 00:22:43,790 --> 00:22:47,230 have the entrepreneurial spirit, but just don't 516 00:22:47,230 --> 00:22:48,742 have the good plans yet. 517 00:22:48,742 --> 00:22:49,450 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 518 00:22:49,450 --> 00:22:51,160 That's important. 519 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:51,910 Yes. 520 00:22:51,910 --> 00:22:52,675 First name? 521 00:22:52,675 --> 00:22:52,990 AUDIENCE: Sean. 522 00:22:52,990 --> 00:22:53,782 BOB DIMATTEO: Sean? 523 00:22:53,782 --> 00:22:54,520 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 524 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,180 Well, for me, I think even if I were to have a good idea, 525 00:22:57,180 --> 00:22:59,620 I don't think I would even venture 526 00:22:59,620 --> 00:23:02,590 into trying to start a company at this point in my life. 527 00:23:02,590 --> 00:23:04,680 I think that there is valuable insights 528 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,990 I could gain by working in industry for a while, 529 00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:09,400 whether it's engineering or not. 530 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,260 And as you get more experience, you actually 531 00:23:11,260 --> 00:23:13,510 understood how things work in reality. 532 00:23:13,510 --> 00:23:17,470 Then at that point, the idea that you thought it was good, 533 00:23:17,470 --> 00:23:19,132 maybe it wasn't. 534 00:23:19,132 --> 00:23:21,010 And if turns out to be, then you'll 535 00:23:21,010 --> 00:23:24,442 have more experience to actually make it happen. 536 00:23:24,442 --> 00:23:25,900 BOB DIMATTEO: Makes a lot of sense. 537 00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:26,420 AUDIENCE: It's not about the idea. 538 00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:27,520 It's about the experience. 539 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:28,210 BOB DIMATTEO: Absolutely. 540 00:23:28,210 --> 00:23:28,710 Right. 541 00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:31,090 It's the idea and everything else 542 00:23:31,090 --> 00:23:35,080 it takes to turn that into a product, doing something useful 543 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,850 for people in the real world. 544 00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:40,030 OK. 545 00:23:40,030 --> 00:23:46,090 One more input, just to have a little collection of inputs. 546 00:23:46,090 --> 00:23:49,570 One more-- anyone want to jump in. 547 00:23:49,570 --> 00:23:51,760 Columbus? 548 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,110 You thinking about what-- 549 00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:54,200 what year are you in? 550 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:55,158 AUDIENCE: I'm a senior. 551 00:23:55,158 --> 00:23:56,581 BOB DIMATTEO: Senior. 552 00:23:56,581 --> 00:23:59,350 AUDIENCE: It's the intersection of kind of the environment 553 00:23:59,350 --> 00:24:00,680 and energy sector. 554 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:10,070 So how renewable impacts on environment [INAUDIBLE] 555 00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:12,420 energy system. 556 00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:13,772 So I'm not really sure. 557 00:24:13,772 --> 00:24:14,480 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 558 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:15,020 OK. 559 00:24:15,020 --> 00:24:16,850 Good. 560 00:24:16,850 --> 00:24:21,080 So just based on the very little you know about our technology, 561 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:26,030 make an argument for starting-- 562 00:24:26,030 --> 00:24:27,452 which one you would start in. 563 00:24:27,452 --> 00:24:29,660 Because one of the most difficult things in launching 564 00:24:29,660 --> 00:24:31,850 a business, whether you're doing it as a startup 565 00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:35,030 or whether you're doing it in an existing large company, 566 00:24:35,030 --> 00:24:38,510 is what market to go after first, right? 567 00:24:38,510 --> 00:24:41,030 And there are advantages and disadvantages 568 00:24:41,030 --> 00:24:42,387 to different markets. 569 00:24:42,387 --> 00:24:44,720 One of the advantages doing something in a large company 570 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,210 is you may be able to go after more than one market 571 00:24:47,210 --> 00:24:48,260 at the same time. 572 00:24:48,260 --> 00:24:52,010 But oftentimes, not. 573 00:24:52,010 --> 00:24:55,660 So it's sort of like selecting a spouse, right? 574 00:24:59,270 --> 00:25:02,840 There are lots of different interesting candidates 575 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,850 in the world, right? 576 00:25:04,850 --> 00:25:09,200 And how do you narrow it down to one particular person? 577 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,160 It can be a painful process? 578 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,910 And so this can be a painful process, too. 579 00:25:13,910 --> 00:25:17,150 So somebody say something about why you would or wouldn't 580 00:25:17,150 --> 00:25:22,580 choose one of these four as an initial launch market? 581 00:25:22,580 --> 00:25:23,411 Yes, Samuel? 582 00:25:23,411 --> 00:25:25,494 AUDIENCE: I would say take the one with the lowest 583 00:25:25,494 --> 00:25:26,160 barrier to entry. 584 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:27,743 BOB DIMATTEO: Lowest barrier to entry. 585 00:25:27,743 --> 00:25:30,380 So what do you mean by barrier to entry? 586 00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:32,860 AUDIENCE: Like thinking about like what sort of things 587 00:25:32,860 --> 00:25:34,610 are going to stand in the way from getting 588 00:25:34,610 --> 00:25:36,270 your product into actual use. 589 00:25:36,270 --> 00:25:38,770 And I mean like things where there's a lot of infrastructure 590 00:25:38,770 --> 00:25:42,100 to go through, or even like really established industries, 591 00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:45,920 they can be kind of hesitant to take on new technologies, where 592 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,900 things that are kind of less established 593 00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:50,780 oftentimes will be more open to just changes. 594 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,820 BOB DIMATTEO: So how might you address that-- 595 00:25:56,820 --> 00:25:59,537 did you have, right here? 596 00:25:59,537 --> 00:26:00,370 AUDIENCE: All right. 597 00:26:00,370 --> 00:26:01,630 I did have something to say-- 598 00:26:01,630 --> 00:26:03,172 BOB DIMATTEO: Yeah, please, go ahead. 599 00:26:03,172 --> 00:26:04,450 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 600 00:26:04,450 --> 00:26:08,480 Oh, I was going to say, if I were to choose, 601 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,450 I'd go in more of a [INAUDIBLE] because it 602 00:26:10,450 --> 00:26:13,500 seems like the market is there. 603 00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:16,832 And it seems like it's growing, like not only [INAUDIBLE].. 604 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,201 And I think that there'd be more potentially. 605 00:26:23,201 --> 00:26:25,030 Like, [INAUDIBLE]. 606 00:26:25,030 --> 00:26:28,640 But since solar's more, I guess, uncertain, 607 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,840 it's more uncertain than like industrial, 608 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,490 like it seems like there's a lot of [INAUDIBLE] happening 609 00:26:36,490 --> 00:26:37,720 in there right now. 610 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,636 Automotive-- I guess that would be my second choice 611 00:26:40,636 --> 00:26:42,422 if I had to choose right now. 612 00:26:42,422 --> 00:26:43,400 [INAUDIBLE] 613 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,462 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 614 00:26:45,462 --> 00:26:46,670 These are really good inputs. 615 00:26:46,670 --> 00:26:47,767 Charlotte? 616 00:26:47,767 --> 00:26:49,850 AUDIENCE: I think I would go with industrial, just 617 00:26:49,850 --> 00:26:51,230 because a lot of-- 618 00:26:51,230 --> 00:26:54,423 I mean, for solar power in like industrial areas. 619 00:26:54,423 --> 00:26:56,030 A lot of times industrial plants are 620 00:26:56,030 --> 00:26:57,170 located like outside of cities, where there wouldn't 621 00:26:57,170 --> 00:26:58,520 be as much like interference. 622 00:26:58,520 --> 00:26:59,660 And I think that-- 623 00:26:59,660 --> 00:27:02,420 I mean, obviously, like industrial plants produce-- 624 00:27:02,420 --> 00:27:05,040 like use a lot of energy [INAUDIBLE] 625 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,022 generation, so that seems like a market. 626 00:27:09,022 --> 00:27:09,730 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 627 00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:10,438 Very interesting. 628 00:27:10,438 --> 00:27:14,410 So we have low barriers to entry, portable power, 629 00:27:14,410 --> 00:27:16,480 industrial sector, right? 630 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:17,170 Interesting. 631 00:27:17,170 --> 00:27:18,165 John-Mario. 632 00:27:18,165 --> 00:27:18,790 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 633 00:27:18,790 --> 00:27:20,520 So I think-- 634 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,050 I mean, all of those four are pretty capital 635 00:27:23,050 --> 00:27:26,230 intensive as far as starting something goes. 636 00:27:26,230 --> 00:27:29,777 So I think scalability will be a big factor. 637 00:27:29,777 --> 00:27:32,110 So that's one thing also industrial is very interesting, 638 00:27:32,110 --> 00:27:36,490 because if you look into a lot of, 639 00:27:36,490 --> 00:27:38,950 I guess, clean energy initiatives tend 640 00:27:38,950 --> 00:27:42,610 to be very focused on like the utility sector, 641 00:27:42,610 --> 00:27:44,990 how you can make things more efficient-- or industry, 642 00:27:44,990 --> 00:27:47,156 in terms of manufacturing. 643 00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:50,620 And I think personally, there's too much 644 00:27:50,620 --> 00:27:52,990 emphasis focused entirely on just-- 645 00:27:52,990 --> 00:27:55,800 for startups, just in technology per se. 646 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,030 But I don't personally see that meaning, 647 00:27:58,030 --> 00:28:00,670 for example, consulting firms advising 648 00:28:00,670 --> 00:28:03,070 how startups can secure government grants, 649 00:28:03,070 --> 00:28:06,370 or how startups can position themselves to take advantage 650 00:28:06,370 --> 00:28:09,390 of existing policies related to energy or something like that. 651 00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:12,160 I think there are a lot of different areas 652 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,510 that you can use knowledge about energy 653 00:28:16,510 --> 00:28:19,135 and so on, but without necessarily producing 654 00:28:19,135 --> 00:28:21,678 anything, mostly advising for this as well. 655 00:28:21,678 --> 00:28:24,220 BOB DIMATTEO: So there's a lot more than just the technology. 656 00:28:24,220 --> 00:28:24,887 AUDIENCE: Right. 657 00:28:24,887 --> 00:28:25,990 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 658 00:28:25,990 --> 00:28:28,700 These are all really important points. 659 00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:34,000 And as engineers, that may be one of the hardest ones to get. 660 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,800 It sounds like you guys probably already 661 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,338 have a very good sense of that, the ecosystem, 662 00:28:38,338 --> 00:28:40,130 that there's more than just the technology. 663 00:28:40,130 --> 00:28:42,460 But oftentimes, the technology is hard, 664 00:28:42,460 --> 00:28:43,970 so it takes lots of your focus. 665 00:28:47,940 --> 00:28:50,190 But then you've got to make all these other decisions. 666 00:28:50,190 --> 00:28:55,480 So in our case, we really struggled with portable power 667 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,600 because it's small. 668 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,590 And so compared to the industrial, industrial, 669 00:29:02,590 --> 00:29:06,550 you need like more chips, which requires more capital, more 670 00:29:06,550 --> 00:29:07,745 manufacturing capacity. 671 00:29:07,745 --> 00:29:09,370 You've got to deal with bigger vendors, 672 00:29:09,370 --> 00:29:11,450 and there's more bureaucracy and everything else. 673 00:29:11,450 --> 00:29:17,420 And so the portable power was very attractive to us. 674 00:29:17,420 --> 00:29:20,590 We ended up going with industrial, OK? 675 00:29:20,590 --> 00:29:26,020 And so any guesses as to why we might have done that? 676 00:29:26,020 --> 00:29:27,773 Yes? 677 00:29:27,773 --> 00:29:29,690 AUDIENCE: From what I've seen, your technology 678 00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:31,180 is most aligned with them. 679 00:29:31,180 --> 00:29:35,660 They have very energy-intensive processes that 680 00:29:35,660 --> 00:29:38,860 are also capital intensive. 681 00:29:38,860 --> 00:29:42,612 And a 4% or 5% efficiency gain, something 682 00:29:42,612 --> 00:29:44,320 that's valuable to them in the long term. 683 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,000 And they also have a long lifecycle. 684 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,790 It's not like a laptop that has a two-year lifecycle maybe, 685 00:29:48,790 --> 00:29:50,215 you're not going to get a return. 686 00:29:50,215 --> 00:29:53,050 So it's not 1,000 degrees. 687 00:29:53,050 --> 00:29:58,250 And you have a much more diverse [INAUDIBLE] whereas here you 688 00:29:58,250 --> 00:29:59,700 have maybe 20 major players. 689 00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:02,472 They all have enormous plants that 690 00:30:02,472 --> 00:30:03,680 operate at high temperatures. 691 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,790 I think you make the decision to save 5% with your capital. 692 00:30:07,790 --> 00:30:08,540 BOB DIMATTEO: Yep. 693 00:30:08,540 --> 00:30:11,780 So that was definitely part of it. 694 00:30:11,780 --> 00:30:14,240 Performance-- how good a performance? 695 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,480 You start with the technology is just new. 696 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,550 How good does the performance of the technology 697 00:30:19,550 --> 00:30:24,470 have to get before you can do X market? 698 00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:29,570 And here, we felt that it was more stringent because here-- 699 00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:31,880 say, we're going to go into a laptop. 700 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,450 We had to compete with the lithium 701 00:30:35,450 --> 00:30:38,270 ion batteries that are in laptops. 702 00:30:38,270 --> 00:30:43,970 And so this kind of goes to technical details, really. 703 00:30:43,970 --> 00:30:46,700 But that was a factor, that we felt-- 704 00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:49,180 there's no way you guys could know a priori sitting here. 705 00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:50,930 But we felt that it would have been harder 706 00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:52,763 to get that level of performance, as opposed 707 00:30:52,763 --> 00:30:56,900 to the industrial situation, where it just-- 708 00:30:56,900 --> 00:30:58,220 basically, it's economic. 709 00:30:58,220 --> 00:31:00,620 It needs to be economically feasible. 710 00:31:00,620 --> 00:31:03,000 But it doesn't have to be any better than that. 711 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,470 And there's really no competition. 712 00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:10,940 Another thing was-- some of you guys mentioned related things. 713 00:31:10,940 --> 00:31:12,950 And that is, how tightly do you have 714 00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:15,020 to integrate with other companies, 715 00:31:15,020 --> 00:31:19,820 with other technologies, with other applications? 716 00:31:19,820 --> 00:31:23,030 And we felt that in the industrial-- 717 00:31:23,030 --> 00:31:24,890 for example, the heat source. 718 00:31:24,890 --> 00:31:26,780 What kind of heat source are we going to use? 719 00:31:26,780 --> 00:31:28,700 Where are we going to actually get the heat? 720 00:31:28,700 --> 00:31:31,790 Here, the heat would have to be produced in a very 721 00:31:31,790 --> 00:31:34,010 small combustion device-- 722 00:31:34,010 --> 00:31:37,000 a pretty high-tech combustion device. 723 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,380 And so we would need to very tightly couple 724 00:31:39,380 --> 00:31:44,390 with another company to do that, as well 725 00:31:44,390 --> 00:31:49,490 that the heat rejection, safety, FAA regulations, et cetera. 726 00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:53,790 Whereas in the industrial space, the heat was already there. 727 00:31:53,790 --> 00:31:59,108 So it was just another piece of complexity 728 00:31:59,108 --> 00:32:00,540 that we didn't have to deal with. 729 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:04,730 OK. 730 00:32:04,730 --> 00:32:07,830 So let's see. 731 00:32:07,830 --> 00:32:11,682 Let me-- that's about all I have for slides-- 732 00:32:11,682 --> 00:32:13,640 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: How about your life story? 733 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:14,598 BOB DIMATTEO: My life-- 734 00:32:14,598 --> 00:32:16,098 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: How did you get 735 00:32:16,098 --> 00:32:18,020 from undergraduate kind of interested 736 00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:21,038 in this stuff to selling to glassmakers? 737 00:32:21,038 --> 00:32:21,830 BOB DIMATTEO: Yeah. 738 00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:24,247 So my life story-- so you really want everybody to be able 739 00:32:24,247 --> 00:32:25,610 to take a nap right now-- 740 00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:26,000 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Doesn't have 741 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,550 to cover all aspects of your life. 742 00:32:27,550 --> 00:32:28,592 BOB DIMATTEO: No, I know. 743 00:32:28,592 --> 00:32:31,020 I'm just kidding. 744 00:32:31,020 --> 00:32:31,520 Yeah. 745 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,937 So I mentioned at the beginning what kind of triggered it, 746 00:32:33,937 --> 00:32:35,450 right? 747 00:32:35,450 --> 00:32:37,520 And I guess there were two things-- then 748 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,730 there was an energy shock in like the '70s, when 749 00:32:40,730 --> 00:32:41,390 I was a kid. 750 00:32:41,390 --> 00:32:43,940 And then I was in late '70s in college. 751 00:32:43,940 --> 00:32:46,000 And it looked like energy was really important. 752 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,480 So I guess you guys are sort of-- 753 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,160 the fact that you're in this class-- 754 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,590 the fact that this class exists and the fact 755 00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:53,780 that you guys are in this class means 756 00:32:53,780 --> 00:32:58,730 that energy has gotten a lot more visibility now 757 00:32:58,730 --> 00:33:02,960 than it did, say, in the '80s. 758 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,920 So at any rate, I started-- 759 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,830 what got me actually started was an article in The Boston 760 00:33:09,830 --> 00:33:14,540 Globe in 1978, in the summer. 761 00:33:14,540 --> 00:33:17,510 I was sitting down the Cape, at my girlfriend, 762 00:33:17,510 --> 00:33:21,770 later wife-to-be's cottage, reading The Boston Sunday 763 00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:22,740 Globe on a Sunday. 764 00:33:22,740 --> 00:33:24,860 And there was an article that said, "Kid in Texas 765 00:33:24,860 --> 00:33:28,340 Gets 100 Miles per Gallon From '68 Ford Galaxie." 766 00:33:28,340 --> 00:33:32,465 '68 Ford Galaxie was a big car that probably got like-- 767 00:33:32,465 --> 00:33:34,880 I don't know-- 8 miles per gallon on a good day-- 768 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,590 right-- 100 miles per gallon. 769 00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:40,170 So could that be true? 770 00:33:40,170 --> 00:33:42,260 So who thinks that it could be true? 771 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,130 Who thinks that it could not be true? 772 00:33:50,130 --> 00:33:53,080 And who's not sure? 773 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:53,580 Good. 774 00:33:53,580 --> 00:33:54,080 OK. 775 00:33:56,490 --> 00:33:58,130 I'm not sure. 776 00:33:58,130 --> 00:33:59,550 No, I mean, it all depends on how 777 00:33:59,550 --> 00:34:01,920 you define the vehicle, et cetera, et cetera. 778 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,750 There are only so many BTUs in a gallon of gas. 779 00:34:04,750 --> 00:34:08,760 At any rate-- so it led me to the-- 780 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,940 I was thinking about medical school. 781 00:34:12,940 --> 00:34:13,960 I used to-- 782 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,790 I studied at a school down the street 783 00:34:15,790 --> 00:34:19,510 at the other end of Mass Ave. So I used to drive by this place. 784 00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:21,699 I have three graduate degrees from this place now. 785 00:34:21,699 --> 00:34:27,730 But the way I really discovered it was driving down Mass Ave. i 786 00:34:27,730 --> 00:34:29,350 mean, obviously, I knew about MIT. 787 00:34:29,350 --> 00:34:30,370 But I really didn't-- 788 00:34:30,370 --> 00:34:32,826 I really didn't understand what engineering was. 789 00:34:32,826 --> 00:34:35,409 I thought if you liked math, and science, and stuff like that, 790 00:34:35,409 --> 00:34:37,090 well, you could be a doctor, you know? 791 00:34:37,090 --> 00:34:39,007 So I figured, well, maybe that's what I'll do. 792 00:34:39,007 --> 00:34:40,750 So I was a government major because I 793 00:34:40,750 --> 00:34:42,969 was interested in the kinds of things 794 00:34:42,969 --> 00:34:45,050 that you talk about in this course. 795 00:34:45,050 --> 00:34:47,290 But I really like math and physics-- 796 00:34:47,290 --> 00:34:49,130 science and math. 797 00:34:49,130 --> 00:34:53,290 And so I figured, well, I'll do medicine. 798 00:34:53,290 --> 00:34:55,120 And then I read this article, you know? 799 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,220 And so then they kind of came together, 800 00:34:57,220 --> 00:34:59,080 just like you guys are doing in this class. 801 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,050 You have technical backgrounds of various sorts, 802 00:35:02,050 --> 00:35:04,840 and you're here learning about the whole picture 803 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,310 of energy, which really is-- 804 00:35:07,310 --> 00:35:09,370 I mean, in some ways, unfortunately much bigger 805 00:35:09,370 --> 00:35:11,950 than just the technology because it 806 00:35:11,950 --> 00:35:13,420 makes it much more complicated. 807 00:35:13,420 --> 00:35:18,200 But in a way, that's what makes it that much more important. 808 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:23,530 And so did early experiments in this realm, 809 00:35:23,530 --> 00:35:27,970 found out about solar energy and photovoltaics. 810 00:35:27,970 --> 00:35:30,220 Came over here, and Steve Senturia 811 00:35:30,220 --> 00:35:32,530 taught the class on microfabrication, 812 00:35:32,530 --> 00:35:35,590 the interest in photovoltaics brought me there. 813 00:35:35,590 --> 00:35:37,420 I ended up spending a semester here 814 00:35:37,420 --> 00:35:40,360 while I was an undergraduate down the street, which, 815 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,870 if any of you are not seniors, I highly recommend just 816 00:35:43,870 --> 00:35:46,300 get yourself down Mass Ave, take just one course 817 00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:47,620 at that other institution. 818 00:35:47,620 --> 00:35:48,770 It's totally free. 819 00:35:48,770 --> 00:35:50,400 It's totally easy. 820 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,210 It's a very different world and you'll be glad that you did it. 821 00:35:55,210 --> 00:35:59,290 You can write me for your money back if you 822 00:35:59,290 --> 00:36:01,591 don't think so afterwards. 823 00:36:01,591 --> 00:36:04,030 At any rate, so I started my first company 824 00:36:04,030 --> 00:36:05,980 while I was a senior in college specifically 825 00:36:05,980 --> 00:36:07,870 to develop energy technology. 826 00:36:07,870 --> 00:36:11,900 And it took probably 15 years to really do it directly, 827 00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:13,450 which is this right here. 828 00:36:13,450 --> 00:36:15,320 Although, along the way-- 829 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,947 so from in the family garage, tinkering with engines 830 00:36:18,947 --> 00:36:20,530 and trying to figure out, can somebody 831 00:36:20,530 --> 00:36:26,770 really get 100 miles per gallon, and patient family 832 00:36:26,770 --> 00:36:29,210 kind of dealing with all that. 833 00:36:29,210 --> 00:36:32,560 And then right then in the beginning 834 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,527 of the '80s, difficult recession, 835 00:36:34,527 --> 00:36:35,485 where do you get a job? 836 00:36:35,485 --> 00:36:37,068 Do you really want to do clean energy? 837 00:36:37,068 --> 00:36:38,530 There are no clean energy jobs. 838 00:36:38,530 --> 00:36:40,720 And I went to work in the aircraft industry 839 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:43,060 because I also taken Fred McGarry's course here 840 00:36:43,060 --> 00:36:44,560 in composite materials because I was 841 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,300 interested in composite materials for what? 842 00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:48,383 Why might you be interested in composite materials 843 00:36:48,383 --> 00:36:51,220 if you're interested in energy? 844 00:36:51,220 --> 00:36:52,390 Wait a minute. 845 00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:54,130 We got to get somebody else, John-Mario. 846 00:36:54,130 --> 00:36:55,480 Thank you. 847 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:56,080 Come on. 848 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,478 Kristin? 849 00:36:57,478 --> 00:36:58,810 AUDIENCE: Lightweight vehicles? 850 00:36:58,810 --> 00:36:59,977 BOB DIMATTEO: Yeah, exactly. 851 00:36:59,977 --> 00:37:00,610 Exactly. 852 00:37:00,610 --> 00:37:01,390 Right. 853 00:37:01,390 --> 00:37:02,500 Exactly. 854 00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:04,090 Yeah. 855 00:37:04,090 --> 00:37:07,210 And so they wanted to build lightweight helicopters. 856 00:37:07,210 --> 00:37:12,265 And so later on, I realized that I-- 857 00:37:12,265 --> 00:37:14,140 wasn't so clear at the time that I was really 858 00:37:14,140 --> 00:37:15,598 working on clean energy-- you know, 859 00:37:15,598 --> 00:37:17,380 lightweight, strong materials which 860 00:37:17,380 --> 00:37:22,150 are now going in lots of airplanes and vehicles. 861 00:37:22,150 --> 00:37:24,980 And I thought I was in the aircraft industry, 862 00:37:24,980 --> 00:37:27,460 but I was really working-- pursuing my interest 863 00:37:27,460 --> 00:37:29,890 in clean energy. 864 00:37:29,890 --> 00:37:34,000 And then another stint with a company up the street, 865 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,660 MITRE Corporation, another spin-out out of MIT-- 866 00:37:37,660 --> 00:37:39,610 well, Lincoln Lab spun out of MIT, 867 00:37:39,610 --> 00:37:42,680 and MITRE spun out of Lincoln Lab. 868 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:49,030 And when we started to explore some of these concepts-- 869 00:37:49,030 --> 00:37:52,480 but I really wanted to try to do things more directly 870 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:58,900 and linked with sort of energy as the food piece 871 00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:01,180 that Christopher mentioned. 872 00:38:01,180 --> 00:38:04,525 And sort of the notion that if a home-- 873 00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:10,080 if a home-- it's part of like-- 874 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,680 like what's an energy system in a home? 875 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,140 I know this is real easy, but what's 876 00:38:16,140 --> 00:38:17,550 an energy system in a home? 877 00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:23,360 That every home in the United States has? 878 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:24,424 Yeah, Jacob? 879 00:38:24,424 --> 00:38:25,292 AUDIENCE: HVAC. 880 00:38:25,292 --> 00:38:26,160 BOB DIMATTEO: HVAC. 881 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:27,030 Exactly. 882 00:38:27,030 --> 00:38:30,140 So make making heat, keep people warm in the cold weather. 883 00:38:30,140 --> 00:38:32,697 And what's another energy system in the home? 884 00:38:32,697 --> 00:38:33,638 AUDIENCE: An oven. 885 00:38:33,638 --> 00:38:34,430 BOB DIMATTEO: Oven. 886 00:38:34,430 --> 00:38:34,930 OK. 887 00:38:34,930 --> 00:38:36,430 And what might the oven run off of? 888 00:38:36,430 --> 00:38:38,080 AUDIENCE: Natural gas or electricity. 889 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:38,630 BOB DIMATTEO: Or electricity. 890 00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:39,130 OK. 891 00:38:39,130 --> 00:38:41,640 So then electricity is another energy system. 892 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,950 So one thought is, what if there was a food system in a home 893 00:38:45,950 --> 00:38:46,910 also-- 894 00:38:46,910 --> 00:38:49,470 going back to Christopher's point. 895 00:38:49,470 --> 00:38:53,450 And so just the notion of the home as being the energy 896 00:38:53,450 --> 00:38:55,940 central of your physical well-being-- 897 00:38:55,940 --> 00:38:59,150 whether it's in the developed world or developing countries, 898 00:38:59,150 --> 00:39:02,120 even more important perhaps, in developing countries. 899 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,330 Any rate-- so it made me want to build a house. 900 00:39:05,330 --> 00:39:07,520 And I built a house while I was working full-time 901 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:08,780 and then built another one. 902 00:39:08,780 --> 00:39:12,710 And so then I did that for about eight years. 903 00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:16,340 And we were leaders in energy efficient housing-- 904 00:39:16,340 --> 00:39:18,610 no surprise. 905 00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:21,500 And over the course of time, we built some miles 906 00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:24,500 of roads and 150 homes. 907 00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:29,960 And then I went back to graduate school 908 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,040 to more specifically concentrate directly 909 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,860 on energy technology and the kinds of issues 910 00:39:36,860 --> 00:39:39,600 that I talked about earlier. 911 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:46,310 And that's what led to MTPV with the professors here. 912 00:39:46,310 --> 00:39:49,130 And then there's a laboratory across the street, Draper 913 00:39:49,130 --> 00:39:50,360 Laboratory-- 914 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,720 it used to be the MIT Instrumentation Lab. 915 00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:59,680 And they called me up and said, we saw your resume 916 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,850 in the course 6 resume book. 917 00:40:02,850 --> 00:40:05,570 And now this was and-- 918 00:40:05,570 --> 00:40:07,760 this is in 1996. 919 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,240 And energy-- so how important-- how hot 920 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:13,820 a topic was energy in 1996? 921 00:40:13,820 --> 00:40:15,950 Not for those of us that were working in the field 922 00:40:15,950 --> 00:40:18,330 and dedicated, but I mean, do you guys have any sense? 923 00:40:18,330 --> 00:40:20,060 How old were you guys in 1996? 924 00:40:20,060 --> 00:40:21,640 Just a couple of examples, ballpark? 925 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:22,013 AUDIENCE: Six. 926 00:40:22,013 --> 00:40:22,386 AUDIENCE: Four. 927 00:40:22,386 --> 00:40:23,011 AUDIENCE: Five. 928 00:40:23,011 --> 00:40:24,350 BOB DIMATTEO: Six, seven, OK. 929 00:40:24,350 --> 00:40:28,040 So it wasn't on the top of you guys' agenda, right? 930 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:30,710 But do you have a sense of like how relevant it is today? 931 00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:35,030 How much in the news it is today versus in 1996? 932 00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:36,410 More now or less now? 933 00:40:36,410 --> 00:40:39,050 How many think it's more now than then? 934 00:40:39,050 --> 00:40:40,070 OK. 935 00:40:40,070 --> 00:40:40,850 Yeah. 936 00:40:40,850 --> 00:40:44,772 So it certainly seems that way. 937 00:40:44,772 --> 00:40:46,760 But at any rate, there were folks over there 938 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,810 that thought energy would be important. 939 00:40:48,810 --> 00:40:52,910 And so we started developing this MTPV technology there. 940 00:40:52,910 --> 00:40:57,890 First analysis, the visit the Professor Haus mentioned 941 00:40:57,890 --> 00:41:01,910 earlier here on campus, who once he realized that you actually 942 00:41:01,910 --> 00:41:03,500 could do better than Planck's law, 943 00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:05,240 that we weren't violating Planck's law, 944 00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:07,400 that we were just operating outside of the limits 945 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,280 that Planck himself put on his law, he said, OK, 946 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:12,560 go run the numbers. 947 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,930 So go back and crank through Maxwell's equations 948 00:41:14,930 --> 00:41:16,430 and do all that stuff. 949 00:41:16,430 --> 00:41:18,650 And come back and tell me how much more-- 950 00:41:18,650 --> 00:41:22,040 how much better can you do that Planck's law? 951 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:27,770 And so with a tremendous team at Draper Laboratory, many of whom 952 00:41:27,770 --> 00:41:31,470 we still work with today, we did that. 953 00:41:31,470 --> 00:41:34,370 And then-- so this is part of-- 954 00:41:34,370 --> 00:41:36,230 one of you guys here mentioned starting 955 00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:38,240 in a larger company, right? 956 00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:42,530 What's it look like starting an energy technology in a startup 957 00:41:42,530 --> 00:41:43,820 versus the larger company? 958 00:41:43,820 --> 00:41:47,073 In the larger company, there is management to deal with. 959 00:41:47,073 --> 00:41:48,740 Management does the resource allocation. 960 00:41:48,740 --> 00:41:51,090 And hopefully, which was the case for us, 961 00:41:51,090 --> 00:41:52,730 they ask good questions. 962 00:41:52,730 --> 00:41:55,370 First they said, go convince Professor Haus 963 00:41:55,370 --> 00:41:56,720 that you have it all right. 964 00:41:56,720 --> 00:41:59,550 So when the analysis was done, then they said, OK. 965 00:41:59,550 --> 00:42:01,940 Now you're ready to design experiments, start 966 00:42:01,940 --> 00:42:03,260 doing the experiments. 967 00:42:03,260 --> 00:42:05,270 We built tiny chips, 2 millimeters 968 00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:10,730 by 2 millimeters-- so smaller than half your baby fingernail. 969 00:42:10,730 --> 00:42:15,410 And sure enough, the effect was there as the theory-- 970 00:42:15,410 --> 00:42:17,075 as the analysis predicted. 971 00:42:17,075 --> 00:42:18,950 We published that in Applied Physics Letters. 972 00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:21,270 The government got interested-- somebody mentioned 973 00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:22,520 government funding or whatnot. 974 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,340 That can be a very important part of energy technology 975 00:42:25,340 --> 00:42:27,960 because how is energy-- 976 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,310 how is energy technology different than, say, software? 977 00:42:31,310 --> 00:42:33,230 Than, say, iPhone app? 978 00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:38,910 Obeida? 979 00:42:38,910 --> 00:42:40,933 Do you want to take a shot? 980 00:42:40,933 --> 00:42:42,600 AUDIENCE: It's more of you have to build 981 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,138 your products [INAUDIBLE]. 982 00:42:46,138 --> 00:42:46,930 BOB DIMATTEO: Yeah. 983 00:42:46,930 --> 00:42:48,780 AUDIENCE: You need the materials to build your products. 984 00:42:48,780 --> 00:42:49,572 BOB DIMATTEO: Yeah. 985 00:42:49,572 --> 00:42:52,522 AUDIENCE: More capital for startup [INAUDIBLE] 986 00:42:52,522 --> 00:42:53,597 from your own company. 987 00:42:53,597 --> 00:42:54,430 BOB DIMATTEO: Right. 988 00:42:54,430 --> 00:42:55,210 Exactly. 989 00:42:55,210 --> 00:42:55,930 Yeah. 990 00:42:55,930 --> 00:43:03,370 And so there was a recent book written called Lean Startup. 991 00:43:03,370 --> 00:43:05,080 And so this-- the following is basically 992 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,690 a plug for the engineering field, a plug for what 993 00:43:07,690 --> 00:43:08,950 many of you were doing. 994 00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:11,470 So this book called Lean Startup-- 995 00:43:11,470 --> 00:43:15,850 and the folks at HBS and Sloan are very much 996 00:43:15,850 --> 00:43:18,100 aware of it, et cetera. 997 00:43:18,100 --> 00:43:22,630 But it turns out that it's been kind of a hit 998 00:43:22,630 --> 00:43:28,210 and almost sort of a craze in the innovation world. 999 00:43:28,210 --> 00:43:32,110 But he says in it that he assumes 1000 00:43:32,110 --> 00:43:37,730 that what they're trying to do can be done. 1001 00:43:37,730 --> 00:43:40,865 So in other words, if you're making an app for the iPhone, 1002 00:43:40,865 --> 00:43:42,820 you know that you can actually produce it. 1003 00:43:42,820 --> 00:43:44,060 It can actually do the thing. 1004 00:43:44,060 --> 00:43:45,815 Do you do it this way for this market? 1005 00:43:45,815 --> 00:43:47,398 Do you do it this way for this market? 1006 00:43:47,398 --> 00:43:52,740 And that's where the war gets lost or won in that world. 1007 00:43:52,740 --> 00:43:55,760 But here in energy, it's really not that way 1008 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,990 because there's no guarantee that things can be done. 1009 00:43:59,990 --> 00:44:02,540 Like we've seen billions of dollars 1010 00:44:02,540 --> 00:44:05,120 go into the liquid biofuels-- which one of you 1011 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,430 guys mentioned-- recently. 1012 00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:11,570 And it's turned out that it's very hard to do-- 1013 00:44:11,570 --> 00:44:13,130 very hard to do. 1014 00:44:13,130 --> 00:44:17,630 So it really it was a technical impediment, 1015 00:44:17,630 --> 00:44:19,740 which is dramatically different than, say, 1016 00:44:19,740 --> 00:44:22,070 if you're in the software world, where you basically 1017 00:44:22,070 --> 00:44:24,800 know that you can build what you want to build. 1018 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,828 And so whether you're think about starting 1019 00:44:26,828 --> 00:44:28,370 your own businesses or whether you're 1020 00:44:28,370 --> 00:44:31,790 interacting with management in some big business, 1021 00:44:31,790 --> 00:44:37,790 that understanding of applying the right questions 1022 00:44:37,790 --> 00:44:39,152 know and the right rules-- 1023 00:44:39,152 --> 00:44:40,610 so if you're in an energy business, 1024 00:44:40,610 --> 00:44:42,770 you probably want the engineers to be 1025 00:44:42,770 --> 00:44:44,575 more involved in management decisions 1026 00:44:44,575 --> 00:44:46,700 than maybe if you were doing software or something. 1027 00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:48,620 What you really need to know is, it's 1028 00:44:48,620 --> 00:44:51,170 the marketing people that need to drive-- 1029 00:44:51,170 --> 00:44:53,120 that need to drive the process. 1030 00:44:56,645 --> 00:44:57,145 OK. 1031 00:44:59,816 --> 00:45:01,630 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Questions? 1032 00:45:01,630 --> 00:45:04,360 Reactions? 1033 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:05,780 More about his life story? 1034 00:45:05,780 --> 00:45:08,140 BOB DIMATTEO: So we-- just to finish, 1035 00:45:08,140 --> 00:45:10,500 we developed this for about six years-- 1036 00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:11,000 excuse me. 1037 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,690 We developed this for 10 years at Draper Lab, 1038 00:45:13,690 --> 00:45:14,915 literally across the street. 1039 00:45:14,915 --> 00:45:16,540 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Government funded? 1040 00:45:16,540 --> 00:45:19,900 BOB DIMATTEO: It was about half internal and half government. 1041 00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:23,500 And from starting with just an idea, like you guys have 1042 00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:26,010 mentioned some ideas, and then analysis, 1043 00:45:26,010 --> 00:45:27,760 and quickly moving on to actually building 1044 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,177 hardware-- tiny hardware with just 1045 00:45:29,177 --> 00:45:34,240 scientific proof of concept demonstration hardware. 1046 00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:37,210 And then scaling up to the kinds of panels and modules 1047 00:45:37,210 --> 00:45:40,420 that you see us working on now. 1048 00:45:40,420 --> 00:45:43,120 The last five years of that work, 1049 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:48,160 I went on in the startup, MTPV Corporation, 1050 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,600 which got spun out of Draper. 1051 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,210 I came back here for a year as a Sloan Fellow-- 1052 00:45:55,210 --> 00:45:57,130 plug for the Sloan Fellows program. 1053 00:45:57,130 --> 00:46:00,880 And actually, the first couple of million dollars, roughly, 1054 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,110 invested in our company was from fellow Sloan Fellows, 1055 00:46:05,110 --> 00:46:06,658 which was pretty remarkable. 1056 00:46:06,658 --> 00:46:08,200 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Draper Labs also 1057 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:09,580 have-- do they have that IP? 1058 00:46:09,580 --> 00:46:09,970 BOB DIMATTEO: Yes. 1059 00:46:09,970 --> 00:46:10,470 Yes. 1060 00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:11,860 Draper Labs involved as well. 1061 00:46:11,860 --> 00:46:13,902 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: And did they give you the IP 1062 00:46:13,902 --> 00:46:15,490 or do they have the IP? 1063 00:46:15,490 --> 00:46:18,670 BOB DIMATTEO: I actually had the IP here. 1064 00:46:18,670 --> 00:46:21,320 And so it went with me to there and then beyond. 1065 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,200 That was kind of part of the original-- 1066 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,430 another important person at MIT whose name is Robert Rines-- 1067 00:46:27,430 --> 00:46:29,920 none of you probably had the pleasure of taking his course. 1068 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,150 He kind of taught one of the-- 1069 00:46:32,150 --> 00:46:34,570 the first course probably for engineers in innovation. 1070 00:46:34,570 --> 00:46:36,610 Now all you guys know about entrepreneurship 1071 00:46:36,610 --> 00:46:37,840 and innovation. 1072 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,020 Some of you are smart enough to realize that entrepreneurship 1073 00:46:41,020 --> 00:46:45,010 and innovation isn't right for everybody at every moment, 1074 00:46:45,010 --> 00:46:47,932 and it can be very painful along the way. 1075 00:46:47,932 --> 00:46:50,140 And I'm happy to talk about some of that if you want. 1076 00:46:50,140 --> 00:46:52,060 And if you were smart, you would ask me about some of that 1077 00:46:52,060 --> 00:46:54,060 if you want, especially the half of you thinking 1078 00:46:54,060 --> 00:46:56,380 about starting businesses. 1079 00:46:56,380 --> 00:46:59,800 And but anyway, Robert Rines-- 1080 00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:00,963 so he taught a course-- 1081 00:47:00,963 --> 00:47:02,380 it was taught out of course 6, I'm 1082 00:47:02,380 --> 00:47:05,590 not sure why for starting like 50 years ago 1083 00:47:05,590 --> 00:47:07,750 in innovation and patents. 1084 00:47:07,750 --> 00:47:10,050 And I took that course. 1085 00:47:10,050 --> 00:47:13,570 And he became our patent attorney for MTPV Corporation 1086 00:47:13,570 --> 00:47:17,540 until he passed away a couple of years ago. 1087 00:47:17,540 --> 00:47:22,600 So MIT is really all over this technology. 1088 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:27,690 And I guess-- 1089 00:47:27,690 --> 00:47:29,440 Hiram said, you know, you should tell them 1090 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,990 that you think that you guys have the potential 1091 00:47:31,990 --> 00:47:34,600 to get to 60% efficiency and like 1092 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,728 a megawatt per square meter. 1093 00:47:36,728 --> 00:47:38,770 And I hate talking about those things-- it really 1094 00:47:38,770 --> 00:47:40,390 is what keeps us going. 1095 00:47:40,390 --> 00:47:42,730 I mean, these initial niche markets, 1096 00:47:42,730 --> 00:47:44,140 they don't keep you going. 1097 00:47:44,140 --> 00:47:47,440 They keep you focused so you know 1098 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,000 what you need to do when you get up every day. 1099 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,250 But they don't keep you going. 1100 00:47:51,250 --> 00:47:53,710 What keeps you going is a larger vision about something 1101 00:47:53,710 --> 00:47:56,950 that-- it doesn't have to be as large as producing 1102 00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:58,780 50% of the world's energy. 1103 00:47:58,780 --> 00:48:01,810 But it's a larger vision as to how what you're working on 1104 00:48:01,810 --> 00:48:03,683 creates meaning. 1105 00:48:03,683 --> 00:48:06,100 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: One of the things I hear you saying-- 1106 00:48:06,100 --> 00:48:08,640 I hear in your narrative and that I 1107 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,640 hear from a lot of entrepreneurs-- and, in fact, 1108 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,930 a lot of people, but a lot of entrepreneurs in particular 1109 00:48:13,930 --> 00:48:17,010 is your path has not been a straight line. 1110 00:48:17,010 --> 00:48:18,010 BOB DIMATTEO: Certainly. 1111 00:48:18,010 --> 00:48:20,135 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: And if you sort of sit there-- 1112 00:48:20,135 --> 00:48:22,070 sit out there and think, I'm going to do this, 1113 00:48:22,070 --> 00:48:23,550 then I'm going to do this, then I'm going to do that, 1114 00:48:23,550 --> 00:48:24,880 then I'm going to do that-- 1115 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:26,500 it sort of worked for Bill Gates, 1116 00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:28,435 but it doesn't work very often. 1117 00:48:28,435 --> 00:48:29,560 It doesn't work very often. 1118 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:29,650 BOB DIMATTEO: Right. 1119 00:48:29,650 --> 00:48:31,010 And not in the energy field, it seems. 1120 00:48:31,010 --> 00:48:32,020 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Yeah. 1121 00:48:32,020 --> 00:48:33,437 BOB DIMATTEO: Is it possible there 1122 00:48:33,437 --> 00:48:36,100 are some fields where it does sort of go more linearly? 1123 00:48:36,100 --> 00:48:40,400 Like I don't know, maybe biotech and drug discovery 1124 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:41,400 and something like that? 1125 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:41,920 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Oh, no. 1126 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:42,260 BOB DIMATTEO: No? 1127 00:48:42,260 --> 00:48:43,660 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: But I mean for individual careers. 1128 00:48:43,660 --> 00:48:44,480 BOB DIMATTEO: For individual careers, OK. 1129 00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:45,250 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Individual careers, 1130 00:48:45,250 --> 00:48:47,800 if you're going to be an entrepreneur, a lot of people-- 1131 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:49,450 I was with this startup and it failed, 1132 00:48:49,450 --> 00:48:50,800 and I worked with this company. 1133 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,830 And then I did this, and then three of us had this idea. 1134 00:48:53,830 --> 00:48:57,350 And you don't sit here at 20, 21 years of age 1135 00:48:57,350 --> 00:48:58,565 and you see that path. 1136 00:48:58,565 --> 00:48:59,357 BOB DIMATTEO: True. 1137 00:48:59,357 --> 00:48:59,470 Yeah. 1138 00:48:59,470 --> 00:49:01,440 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: The path opens up in front of you. 1139 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:02,330 BOB DIMATTEO: Yeah. 1140 00:49:02,330 --> 00:49:03,510 Oftentimes true. 1141 00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:06,490 And it's why there's a lot of merit in starting 1142 00:49:06,490 --> 00:49:09,550 a career in existing companies. 1143 00:49:09,550 --> 00:49:11,680 Because as the young man pointed out, 1144 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,200 you do get lots of experience and knowledge 1145 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,330 that addresses those kinds of dilemmas and risk, et cetera. 1146 00:49:18,330 --> 00:49:19,740 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Questions? 1147 00:49:19,740 --> 00:49:21,276 You want to hear about the pain? 1148 00:49:21,276 --> 00:49:23,670 Ready to hear about the pain? 1149 00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:24,670 Give them a little pain. 1150 00:49:24,670 --> 00:49:26,560 BOB DIMATTEO: Well, I'll invite my wife in 1151 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,530 to give you the pain, right? 1152 00:49:30,530 --> 00:49:31,030 Yeah. 1153 00:49:31,030 --> 00:49:35,170 So when you're with startups and you're getting them funded, 1154 00:49:35,170 --> 00:49:37,120 that can be challenging, right? 1155 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:41,200 So have any of you funded anything to date? 1156 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:45,010 You know, even like lawnmower business when you were a kid, 1157 00:49:45,010 --> 00:49:46,450 you bought the lawnmower? 1158 00:49:46,450 --> 00:49:49,286 Yes, over there. 1159 00:49:49,286 --> 00:49:51,478 AUDIENCE: Like raise funding for something? 1160 00:49:51,478 --> 00:49:52,270 BOB DIMATTEO: Yeah. 1161 00:49:52,270 --> 00:49:53,096 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 1162 00:49:53,096 --> 00:49:55,576 I'm doing a project this summer in Africa. 1163 00:49:55,576 --> 00:49:58,552 And we have to raise a little less than a thousand dollars 1164 00:49:58,552 --> 00:50:00,040 to join the project. 1165 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,975 So that's an initiative from the companies 1166 00:50:02,975 --> 00:50:05,838 to sponsor us themselves. 1167 00:50:05,838 --> 00:50:06,630 BOB DIMATTEO: Yeah. 1168 00:50:06,630 --> 00:50:08,935 So where are you in that process? 1169 00:50:08,935 --> 00:50:09,825 AUDIENCE: Excuse me? 1170 00:50:09,825 --> 00:50:10,520 Where are we? 1171 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:10,830 BOB DIMATTEO: Yeah. 1172 00:50:10,830 --> 00:50:12,120 In the fundraising process. 1173 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:13,110 Money's in the bank? 1174 00:50:13,110 --> 00:50:13,650 Talking to-- 1175 00:50:13,650 --> 00:50:14,275 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 1176 00:50:14,275 --> 00:50:16,635 we're just-- we recently [INAUDIBLE].. 1177 00:50:16,635 --> 00:50:17,885 BOB DIMATTEO: Congratulations. 1178 00:50:17,885 --> 00:50:18,830 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Nice. 1179 00:50:18,830 --> 00:50:19,860 BOB DIMATTEO: That's a real big deal. 1180 00:50:19,860 --> 00:50:20,300 Yeah. 1181 00:50:20,300 --> 00:50:21,760 And what are you doing in your Africa? 1182 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:22,310 AUDIENCE: Will you be able to transfer it, 1183 00:50:22,310 --> 00:50:24,020 are you actually going to transfer it? 1184 00:50:24,020 --> 00:50:25,490 [LAUGHTER] 1185 00:50:25,490 --> 00:50:28,522 AUDIENCE: I'm hoping we'll see something soon. 1186 00:50:28,522 --> 00:50:29,230 BOB DIMATTEO: OK. 1187 00:50:29,230 --> 00:50:30,438 AUDIENCE: You will, I'm sure. 1188 00:50:30,438 --> 00:50:34,170 BOB DIMATTEO: Well, that's an important point to be at. 1189 00:50:34,170 --> 00:50:37,160 The final little legal details, and the little words 1190 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,482 and everything else, that can take a while. 1191 00:50:39,482 --> 00:50:41,690 It can take a while for the money to actually show up 1192 00:50:41,690 --> 00:50:42,385 in the bank. 1193 00:50:42,385 --> 00:50:44,510 So you can't count on it until it's actually there. 1194 00:50:44,510 --> 00:50:45,950 But sounds like you guys are very close. 1195 00:50:45,950 --> 00:50:46,617 Congratulations. 1196 00:50:46,617 --> 00:50:48,120 What are you doing? 1197 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,330 AUDIENCE: Well, we're launching a robotics league. 1198 00:50:50,330 --> 00:50:51,740 BOB DIMATTEO: Robotics league? 1199 00:50:51,740 --> 00:50:52,610 In which country? 1200 00:50:52,610 --> 00:50:53,360 AUDIENCE: Nigeria. 1201 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:54,277 BOB DIMATTEO: Nigeria. 1202 00:50:54,277 --> 00:50:54,920 Very cool. 1203 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:56,300 Wow. 1204 00:50:56,300 --> 00:50:58,250 Was there another hand? 1205 00:50:58,250 --> 00:51:00,110 Yes? 1206 00:51:00,110 --> 00:51:03,380 AUDIENCE: I raised funds for a high-school business 1207 00:51:03,380 --> 00:51:04,350 that I started. 1208 00:51:04,350 --> 00:51:04,525 BOB DIMATTEO: Really 1209 00:51:04,525 --> 00:51:05,390 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 1210 00:51:05,390 --> 00:51:08,600 Is was basically just selling greeting cards to corporations. 1211 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,320 And we raised money by allowing people 1212 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,670 to buy shares in the company because we 1213 00:51:14,670 --> 00:51:16,990 decided to liquidate it at the end of the year, 1214 00:51:16,990 --> 00:51:18,470 so we raised $600. 1215 00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:19,470 BOB DIMATTEO: Excellent. 1216 00:51:19,470 --> 00:51:21,880 AUDIENCE: That was all we needed. 1217 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,260 BOB DIMATTEO: OK, so you get two real entrepreneurs here. 1218 00:51:24,260 --> 00:51:26,202 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Asking people for money 1219 00:51:26,202 --> 00:51:27,410 is an interesting experience. 1220 00:51:27,410 --> 00:51:28,350 BOB DIMATTEO: Absolutely. 1221 00:51:28,350 --> 00:51:28,850 Yeah. 1222 00:51:28,850 --> 00:51:29,890 Absolutely. 1223 00:51:29,890 --> 00:51:30,890 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: OK. 1224 00:51:30,890 --> 00:51:31,900 Any other questions? 1225 00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:33,983 I did promise you sort of a half an hour 1226 00:51:33,983 --> 00:51:36,150 or something completely different, so we'll do that. 1227 00:51:36,150 --> 00:51:36,945 Thank you. 1228 00:51:36,945 --> 00:51:37,240 BOB DIMATTEO: Great. 1229 00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:37,740 Thank you. 1230 00:51:37,740 --> 00:51:40,390 [APPLAUSE] 1231 00:51:40,390 --> 00:51:42,370 Thank you all. 1232 00:51:42,370 --> 00:51:43,990 Pleasure speaking with you. 1233 00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:46,900 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: So to compromise 1234 00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:48,880 between those who wanted that talk and those 1235 00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:50,890 who wanted this talk, I'll give you 1236 00:51:50,890 --> 00:51:53,200 a little bit of what I would have tried 1237 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,480 to make an hour and a half out of if you 1238 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:58,600 had voted for economic development and green growth. 1239 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:04,810 This story starts in '87 with the Brundtland Report, 1240 00:52:04,810 --> 00:52:08,200 a Commission chaired by Gro Harlem Brundtland, 1241 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,410 a woman who was a former prime minister of Norway, that 1242 00:52:11,410 --> 00:52:13,690 coined the phrase sustainable development 1243 00:52:13,690 --> 00:52:16,870 and gave it the definition that you see there. 1244 00:52:16,870 --> 00:52:21,010 And in that first small bullet is sort of the economist's 1245 00:52:21,010 --> 00:52:22,160 interpretation. 1246 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,160 And that is the economy has a certain set of assets, 1247 00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,430 intellectual capital, and physical capital, 1248 00:52:27,430 --> 00:52:33,220 and the environment, and the natural world, a set of stocks. 1249 00:52:33,220 --> 00:52:36,340 And the notion is you should pass on 1250 00:52:36,340 --> 00:52:38,890 to be sustainable a set of stocks 1251 00:52:38,890 --> 00:52:42,610 that are as desirable as the set you inherited. 1252 00:52:42,610 --> 00:52:45,040 The first President Bush called that stewardship. 1253 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,950 Since he was a Republican, nobody used that term. 1254 00:52:47,950 --> 00:52:51,700 But that's the concept, that you have a certain set of assets. 1255 00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:55,330 So you could say, for instance, that economic development 1256 00:52:55,330 --> 00:52:59,860 in 19th century Britain was arguably sustainable, right? 1257 00:52:59,860 --> 00:53:03,880 They burned all the coal, the country was dirty as anything 1258 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,370 for decades, but they came out of it 1259 00:53:06,370 --> 00:53:09,070 with tangible capital, intellectual capital, 1260 00:53:09,070 --> 00:53:13,450 a whole set of other assets that provided standard of living. 1261 00:53:13,450 --> 00:53:19,340 Saudi Arabia is mostly spending the oil money on consumption. 1262 00:53:19,340 --> 00:53:20,920 So when the oil goes-- 1263 00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,640 British coal is long gone, but Britain used it. 1264 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,120 And the issue is that when the Saudi oil is gone, 1265 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,990 that generation is not going to have the assets. 1266 00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:33,430 Now it's a little vague, right? 1267 00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:36,670 It doesn't distinguish between intellectual capital 1268 00:53:36,670 --> 00:53:38,530 and species. 1269 00:53:38,530 --> 00:53:42,220 And it doesn't say anything about poverty. 1270 00:53:42,220 --> 00:53:46,750 And this question of the future generations' own needs-- 1271 00:53:46,750 --> 00:53:49,750 I mean, if the future generation wants to only play video games, 1272 00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:52,490 then wiping out the elephants won't matter. 1273 00:53:52,490 --> 00:53:53,950 But if future generations actually 1274 00:53:53,950 --> 00:53:56,530 care a lot about the natural world, 1275 00:53:56,530 --> 00:53:59,480 then having great video games is not very important. 1276 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,040 So if you don't know what their needs are, it's a little tough. 1277 00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,410 And you know I was once interviewed and asked 1278 00:54:05,410 --> 00:54:07,840 what I thought sustainable development meant, 1279 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:09,990 and I gave the Brundtland definition. 1280 00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:11,590 And they said, is that all, you mean? 1281 00:54:11,590 --> 00:54:12,692 That's kind of narrow. 1282 00:54:12,692 --> 00:54:13,900 And I said, what do you mean? 1283 00:54:13,900 --> 00:54:15,817 They said, what about sustainable communities, 1284 00:54:15,817 --> 00:54:17,920 and sustainable lifestyles, and sustainable-- 1285 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,020 it's gotten to mean sort of everything that's good 1286 00:54:20,020 --> 00:54:21,400 and wholesome and green-- 1287 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:22,330 and a little vague. 1288 00:54:22,330 --> 00:54:26,350 But nonetheless, start with the sustainable development notion. 1289 00:54:26,350 --> 00:54:30,280 The next big event was the 1992 Conference 1290 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,200 on Environment and Development. 1291 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:36,130 This was the conference that led to the Framework Convention 1292 00:54:36,130 --> 00:54:38,770 on Climate Change and really started 1293 00:54:38,770 --> 00:54:41,740 that conversation-- the Kyoto Protocol and all of that. 1294 00:54:41,740 --> 00:54:43,570 That was a big deal. 1295 00:54:43,570 --> 00:54:46,130 172 governments participated. 1296 00:54:46,130 --> 00:54:50,260 108 heads of state or heads of government went. 1297 00:54:50,260 --> 00:54:51,170 That's huge. 1298 00:54:51,170 --> 00:54:53,440 And what came out of it was a lot of paper. 1299 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,510 But the Framework Convention on Climate Change, 1300 00:54:55,510 --> 00:54:59,650 which really structured all the subsequent debate. 1301 00:54:59,650 --> 00:55:03,040 So now we come to 20 years later. 1302 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,930 And you've got this whole UN machinery. 1303 00:55:05,930 --> 00:55:09,520 And we ought to have a conference Rio+20. 1304 00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:13,750 Well, if the headline was climate in 1992, 1305 00:55:13,750 --> 00:55:16,840 the question is, what's the headline now? 1306 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,230 And that leads to the green growth discussion, right? 1307 00:55:20,230 --> 00:55:23,390 So you began to get-- 1308 00:55:23,390 --> 00:55:25,450 beginning a few years ago, you began 1309 00:55:25,450 --> 00:55:28,480 to see staff papers emerging talking 1310 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,300 about the green economy, and green development, 1311 00:55:31,300 --> 00:55:33,760 and green growth. 1312 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,910 Now I have to say, I've read a lot of this 1313 00:55:36,910 --> 00:55:39,940 and the definition is not entirely clear. 1314 00:55:39,940 --> 00:55:45,130 It is described as a subset of sustainable development. 1315 00:55:45,130 --> 00:55:48,700 And it seems to be that subset of sustainable development 1316 00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:52,540 strategies that doesn't involve degradation 1317 00:55:52,540 --> 00:55:55,750 of the natural environment on the way. 1318 00:55:55,750 --> 00:55:59,260 So the British development wouldn't be-- 1319 00:55:59,260 --> 00:56:03,460 might be sustainable because at the end of all that dirt, 1320 00:56:03,460 --> 00:56:06,100 they had high living standards and the prospect of higher 1321 00:56:06,100 --> 00:56:10,720 living standards, but not green, because the environment was 1322 00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:12,520 degraded rather substantially. 1323 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,620 It recovered, but it was degraded substantially 1324 00:56:14,620 --> 00:56:18,280 in the process, and I'm sure species were extinguished. 1325 00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,430 So maybe you could do fossil fuels and be green. 1326 00:56:21,430 --> 00:56:23,980 I think so. 1327 00:56:23,980 --> 00:56:28,590 But if you think about alternative ways of doing 1328 00:56:28,590 --> 00:56:30,340 sustainable development, there's another-- 1329 00:56:30,340 --> 00:56:34,030 another part of the World Bank-- 1330 00:56:34,030 --> 00:56:36,490 the World Bank, the UN, the OECD, and others 1331 00:56:36,490 --> 00:56:37,990 are talking about green economy. 1332 00:56:37,990 --> 00:56:40,870 If you go on the World Bank website and you look carefully, 1333 00:56:40,870 --> 00:56:44,410 you see papers on inclusive growth. 1334 00:56:44,410 --> 00:56:47,560 And that says, well, you have to be sustainable, 1335 00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:51,100 but you should focus on poverty. 1336 00:56:51,100 --> 00:56:53,710 Green growth says, you ought to be sustainable 1337 00:56:53,710 --> 00:56:57,095 but you should focus on the environment. 1338 00:56:57,095 --> 00:56:57,595 OK. 1339 00:57:00,650 --> 00:57:01,860 Where do you go from there? 1340 00:57:01,860 --> 00:57:07,490 Well, this is what is sort of the interesting thing. 1341 00:57:07,490 --> 00:57:10,250 Particularly the UN now argues that if you 1342 00:57:10,250 --> 00:57:15,080 make very large investments in going green, 1343 00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,470 growth of living standards will increase. 1344 00:57:18,470 --> 00:57:22,800 The phrase that's used is, "a new engine of growth." 1345 00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,100 Now if you're a cynical economist, 1346 00:57:25,100 --> 00:57:27,800 you realize that not only does that 1347 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:32,730 mean there's a free lunch, but one we'd all be paid to eat, 1348 00:57:32,730 --> 00:57:33,230 right? 1349 00:57:33,230 --> 00:57:35,660 Going green will raise living standards 1350 00:57:35,660 --> 00:57:38,670 after a very short period of time. 1351 00:57:38,670 --> 00:57:43,340 So what I want to do is talk a little bit about that. 1352 00:57:43,340 --> 00:57:47,780 You can imagine how I and others got engaged. 1353 00:57:47,780 --> 00:57:50,630 This was sort of very-- 1354 00:57:50,630 --> 00:57:55,490 if you don't know this world, the World Bank and the OECD 1355 00:57:55,490 --> 00:57:58,700 and the UN have a lot of-- 1356 00:57:58,700 --> 00:58:00,350 not to insult anybody, but they have 1357 00:58:00,350 --> 00:58:03,650 a lot of very smart people without much to do. 1358 00:58:03,650 --> 00:58:07,490 So a lot of papers generated, and mostly, people 1359 00:58:07,490 --> 00:58:09,140 pay little attention to it. 1360 00:58:09,140 --> 00:58:13,670 But suddenly-- and I'll get into specifics-- suddenly, 1361 00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:16,820 you have these organizations revving up for a big world 1362 00:58:16,820 --> 00:58:19,070 conference talking about-- 1363 00:58:19,070 --> 00:58:23,780 talking about massive changes in investment strategy. 1364 00:58:23,780 --> 00:58:27,000 And I'll give you a sense of it. 1365 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,300 So economists have begun to write about this. 1366 00:58:29,300 --> 00:58:32,420 What's on the reading list-- 1367 00:58:32,420 --> 00:58:37,520 What's on Stellar is a couple of the shorter 1368 00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:39,140 I think World Bank and-- 1369 00:58:39,140 --> 00:58:42,950 I don't remember whether it's UN or OECD publications-- 1370 00:58:42,950 --> 00:58:47,260 piece of mine commenting on this whole thing that's-- 1371 00:58:47,260 --> 00:58:49,360 it'll be the introduction to a special issue 1372 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,940 of Energy Economics. 1373 00:58:51,940 --> 00:58:55,210 And then some other papers that I want to talk about, 1374 00:58:55,210 --> 00:58:57,550 about some of the issues. 1375 00:58:57,550 --> 00:59:01,610 So let me talk about just some of the issues here. 1376 00:59:01,610 --> 00:59:05,980 One issue that everybody points out is absolutely right. 1377 00:59:05,980 --> 00:59:09,160 GDP doesn't pick this up. 1378 00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:14,545 GDP-- we talk about stocks and flows, you have family silver, 1379 00:59:14,545 --> 00:59:16,420 you sell the family silver, you have a party, 1380 00:59:16,420 --> 00:59:19,050 the party shows up in GDP. 1381 00:59:19,050 --> 00:59:21,660 The fact that somehow the silver's out of your hands-- 1382 00:59:21,660 --> 00:59:25,170 or it shows up in sort of your consumption, certainly. 1383 00:59:25,170 --> 00:59:26,308 If you burn down-- 1384 00:59:26,308 --> 00:59:28,350 and there are plenty of African countries, plenty 1385 00:59:28,350 --> 00:59:30,750 of other countries, that have basically burned down-- 1386 00:59:30,750 --> 00:59:32,460 New Hampshire did it, Vermont did it-- 1387 00:59:32,460 --> 00:59:35,640 you burn down the forest to fuel economic development. 1388 00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,970 There's a sense in which you're changing one asset to another. 1389 00:59:38,970 --> 00:59:41,700 Certainly, just looking at what gets produced 1390 00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:43,810 understates the cost. 1391 00:59:43,810 --> 00:59:48,660 So if you look at net national product which 1392 00:59:48,660 --> 00:59:51,480 gets depreciation of some assets, 1393 00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:54,480 it subtracts from gross national product. 1394 00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:58,560 It picks up some of this, but properly 1395 00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:02,100 measured, you'd want to take into account the fact that what 1396 01:00:02,100 --> 01:00:04,740 happened in 19th century Britain was they paid 1397 01:00:04,740 --> 01:00:09,120 for economic development in part by trashing the environment, 1398 01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,480 in part by killing people with the health 1399 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,900 effects of all that smoke, and degrading 1400 01:00:15,900 --> 01:00:16,900 the natural environment. 1401 01:00:16,900 --> 01:00:19,150 So you'd want to take that into account when you said, 1402 01:00:19,150 --> 01:00:21,960 what's income, what are living standards, really? 1403 01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:23,910 We don't know how to do that. 1404 01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:26,640 There's work at the UN, there's work at the US. 1405 01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,850 But part of the green growth argument 1406 01:00:29,850 --> 01:00:34,260 could be that what you want to measure 1407 01:00:34,260 --> 01:00:38,310 isn't GDP growth, but growth in living standards, taking 1408 01:00:38,310 --> 01:00:40,567 into account all this other stuff, 1409 01:00:40,567 --> 01:00:42,150 taking into account changes in health, 1410 01:00:42,150 --> 01:00:45,460 taking into account changes in the natural environment, 1411 01:00:45,460 --> 01:00:46,630 and so forth. 1412 01:00:46,630 --> 01:00:50,860 So you could say, OK, that's a relevant point. 1413 01:00:50,860 --> 01:00:52,620 Another relevant point is they talk 1414 01:00:52,620 --> 01:00:58,410 about increasing investment, taking 2% of world GDP 1415 01:00:58,410 --> 01:01:01,900 and investing it in green things. 1416 01:01:01,900 --> 01:01:04,590 Well, if you make massive investments 1417 01:01:04,590 --> 01:01:08,520 and they're not terrible, they will eventually 1418 01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:10,740 raise growth, right? 1419 01:01:10,740 --> 01:01:13,870 So you're increasing-- there are numbers in my paper. 1420 01:01:13,870 --> 01:01:14,620 They don't matter. 1421 01:01:14,620 --> 01:01:16,710 But it's basically what the UN is 1422 01:01:16,710 --> 01:01:18,840 saying is the world as a whole needs 1423 01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:21,840 to make a massive increase in green investments. 1424 01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:23,880 If you do that, you probably will raise growth. 1425 01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,530 That doesn't mean it's a good idea. 1426 01:01:26,530 --> 01:01:28,360 If you doubled the US capital formation, 1427 01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:30,130 you'd raise us growth. 1428 01:01:30,130 --> 01:01:31,150 A, how do you do it? 1429 01:01:31,150 --> 01:01:33,700 B, is it actually a good deal? 1430 01:01:33,700 --> 01:01:38,480 But the kicker here, most of these models say, 1431 01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:39,640 here's how we raise growth. 1432 01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:45,292 We raise growth by reducing environmental limits on growth. 1433 01:01:45,292 --> 01:01:46,750 What would environmental limits be? 1434 01:01:46,750 --> 01:01:51,160 Well, in the limit, everybody gets sick 1435 01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,600 and production and productivity falls off. 1436 01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:57,640 So if you've ever tried to breathe 1437 01:01:57,640 --> 01:01:59,620 in large Chinese cities, you get a sense 1438 01:01:59,620 --> 01:02:02,630 that there is some theoretical-- 1439 01:02:02,630 --> 01:02:04,570 that this may be more than theory 1440 01:02:04,570 --> 01:02:08,480 in some places at some times. 1441 01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:14,600 But globally, probably not. 1442 01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:19,890 So two good points and one point that's sort of OK in theory. 1443 01:02:19,890 --> 01:02:22,470 The good points are-- 1444 01:02:22,470 --> 01:02:26,250 in terms of going green-- that GDP growth 1445 01:02:26,250 --> 01:02:28,920 isn't really a good measure of growth in standards of living. 1446 01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:33,060 It isn't a good measure of sustainability, period-- 1447 01:02:33,060 --> 01:02:34,530 sure. 1448 01:02:34,530 --> 01:02:36,240 Increasing the rate of investment 1449 01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,600 in green technologies and lots of other things 1450 01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,190 will raise growth. 1451 01:02:41,190 --> 01:02:42,240 Yeah. 1452 01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:43,650 So would investment in railroads, 1453 01:02:43,650 --> 01:02:45,108 so so would investment in highways, 1454 01:02:45,108 --> 01:02:47,010 so would investments in education. 1455 01:02:47,010 --> 01:02:50,130 But that's certainly true. 1456 01:02:50,130 --> 01:02:55,200 It is possible that one way going green 1457 01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,350 increases economic growth is by sort of reducing 1458 01:02:58,350 --> 01:03:00,600 environmental limits. 1459 01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:05,520 The soil's exhausted, the people are sick, et cetera, et cetera, 1460 01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:08,820 the aquifers are depleted, and you're stuck. 1461 01:03:08,820 --> 01:03:10,780 That is certainly possible. 1462 01:03:10,780 --> 01:03:13,200 And if you're really a pessimistic person, 1463 01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,690 you can look down the road, and climate change 1464 01:03:15,690 --> 01:03:19,530 is another set of mechanisms that could do this. 1465 01:03:19,530 --> 01:03:21,270 But is it globally quantitatively 1466 01:03:21,270 --> 01:03:24,270 important in the near term? 1467 01:03:24,270 --> 01:03:26,860 No evidence. 1468 01:03:26,860 --> 01:03:27,360 OK. 1469 01:03:32,190 --> 01:03:34,650 More relevant points. 1470 01:03:34,650 --> 01:03:38,220 Certainly in rich countries, you can make the argument 1471 01:03:38,220 --> 01:03:42,210 that, yes, we should be greener than we are, particularly 1472 01:03:42,210 --> 01:03:43,350 in this country. 1473 01:03:43,350 --> 01:03:46,140 If you think carbon dioxide does anything, 1474 01:03:46,140 --> 01:03:49,230 it probably makes sense to switch-- 1475 01:03:49,230 --> 01:03:54,450 that understates the case to switch to less carbon-intensive 1476 01:03:54,450 --> 01:03:57,420 growth paths, cut emissions, conservation, 1477 01:03:57,420 --> 01:03:58,830 shift to natural gas. 1478 01:03:58,830 --> 01:04:02,640 The interesting question, and the politically tricky 1479 01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,460 question, is in poor countries. 1480 01:04:05,460 --> 01:04:06,870 Because the green growth story is 1481 01:04:06,870 --> 01:04:08,880 a story not about the rich countries, 1482 01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,810 it's a story about mostly poor countries-- 1483 01:04:12,810 --> 01:04:18,420 massive investments in going green in poor countries. 1484 01:04:18,420 --> 01:04:21,553 Well, massive investments in almost anything sensible 1485 01:04:21,553 --> 01:04:23,220 in poor countries would be a good thing. 1486 01:04:23,220 --> 01:04:26,160 Where does it come from? 1487 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,290 Probably doesn't come internally. 1488 01:04:29,290 --> 01:04:31,642 This is the climate problem revisited in a way-- 1489 01:04:31,642 --> 01:04:34,100 probably doesn't come internally because they don't have it 1490 01:04:34,100 --> 01:04:36,460 and they have other priorities. 1491 01:04:36,460 --> 01:04:39,640 Again, telling the Chinese not to use the coal 1492 01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,670 while so many millions of people live in poverty 1493 01:04:42,670 --> 01:04:45,880 is a tough point, tough sale. 1494 01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:47,860 Massive foreign aid? 1495 01:04:47,860 --> 01:04:51,970 Well, appropriating massive foreign aid-- 1496 01:04:51,970 --> 01:04:55,360 again, there's some numbers in my paper, about $400 billion 1497 01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:57,540 a year from the US. 1498 01:04:57,540 --> 01:04:59,790 Imagine walking into Congress and saying, yes, yes. 1499 01:04:59,790 --> 01:05:02,970 I know we have problems but we need to send $400 billion 1500 01:05:02,970 --> 01:05:05,640 a year in foreign aid. 1501 01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:07,830 You would not get a vote on the floor. 1502 01:05:07,830 --> 01:05:10,710 You would not get a vote in a committee. 1503 01:05:10,710 --> 01:05:12,840 And the other problem is the history says, 1504 01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:16,470 if you dump lots of foreign aid on countries 1505 01:05:16,470 --> 01:05:18,840 that don't have good governance structures, 1506 01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:20,640 you don't get good results. 1507 01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:21,570 It gets stolen. 1508 01:05:21,570 --> 01:05:23,980 It gets wasted. 1509 01:05:23,980 --> 01:05:26,590 So that's not likely. 1510 01:05:26,590 --> 01:05:29,490 So without the aid, how can you possibly, say, 1511 01:05:29,490 --> 01:05:33,510 in Africa, in particular, where there is hydro potential, where 1512 01:05:33,510 --> 01:05:38,180 there is coal, and where there is a lot of poverty, 1513 01:05:38,180 --> 01:05:39,000 why not use it? 1514 01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:40,130 Now you can say-- 1515 01:05:40,130 --> 01:05:43,460 you could say-- actually, that's wrong. 1516 01:05:43,460 --> 01:05:47,760 You can say the equity issues are absolutely clear. 1517 01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:52,110 We talked about this when we talked about climate change. 1518 01:05:52,110 --> 01:05:55,670 If I'm a poor country and you say to me, 1519 01:05:55,670 --> 01:05:59,300 we really need you to go green. 1520 01:05:59,300 --> 01:06:03,420 I would say to you, you didn't. 1521 01:06:03,420 --> 01:06:04,290 You got rich. 1522 01:06:04,290 --> 01:06:05,790 You burned your coal. 1523 01:06:05,790 --> 01:06:06,930 You cut down your trees. 1524 01:06:06,930 --> 01:06:09,360 Why can't I? 1525 01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:11,820 If you give me money, maybe I won't. 1526 01:06:11,820 --> 01:06:14,460 But maybe if you give me money, I'll waste it. 1527 01:06:14,460 --> 01:06:16,830 It'll go to a bank account in Switzerland or the Cayman 1528 01:06:16,830 --> 01:06:18,480 Islands. 1529 01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:23,940 Or I'll hire my brother-in-law to build a dam. 1530 01:06:23,940 --> 01:06:26,580 So this is sort of a terrible thing. 1531 01:06:26,580 --> 01:06:30,360 Now this is something that's sort 1532 01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:32,220 of not on, as the English say. 1533 01:06:32,220 --> 01:06:35,688 There's just no way to get it done without massive transfers 1534 01:06:35,688 --> 01:06:37,980 of aid, and there's no way to get the massive transfers 1535 01:06:37,980 --> 01:06:39,330 of aid done-- 1536 01:06:39,330 --> 01:06:43,090 as far as I can tell, in any case. 1537 01:06:43,090 --> 01:06:46,410 One point I do want to make, though, 1538 01:06:46,410 --> 01:06:50,220 and that is while you're thinking about startups, one 1539 01:06:50,220 --> 01:06:53,520 of the really interesting opportunities 1540 01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:58,620 globally is the large number of people who 1541 01:06:58,620 --> 01:07:01,560 have no electricity, period. 1542 01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,530 Who are off-grid, who are in rural areas. 1543 01:07:04,530 --> 01:07:06,030 And that's one of those interesting 1544 01:07:06,030 --> 01:07:07,980 bottom-of-the-pyramid opportunities that a lot 1545 01:07:07,980 --> 01:07:11,870 of people have tried to crack because having lighting 1546 01:07:11,870 --> 01:07:13,980 at night makes a huge difference. 1547 01:07:13,980 --> 01:07:17,030 It means kids can stay in school. 1548 01:07:17,030 --> 01:07:20,090 It means the family can work after the sun goes down 1549 01:07:20,090 --> 01:07:21,140 at various things. 1550 01:07:21,140 --> 01:07:22,880 But in particular, kids can study. 1551 01:07:25,930 --> 01:07:28,330 And there are a lot of people who have tried 1552 01:07:28,330 --> 01:07:30,700 to crack that economically. 1553 01:07:30,700 --> 01:07:33,070 Usually some version of solar plus storage 1554 01:07:33,070 --> 01:07:36,040 deployed at the community level or solar lanterns that 1555 01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:38,770 could be sold cheaply and charged in the daytime 1556 01:07:38,770 --> 01:07:39,970 and used at night. 1557 01:07:39,970 --> 01:07:42,400 So there are lots of opportunities there. 1558 01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:44,620 It isn't massive. 1559 01:07:44,620 --> 01:07:47,140 It isn't massive. 1560 01:07:47,140 --> 01:07:50,440 The other thing to point out is one of the real tragedies here, 1561 01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:53,440 and one of the reasons why the whole green growth notion 1562 01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:58,000 is compelling, but painful. 1563 01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:03,610 And that is, again, there's a piece on Stellar-- 1564 01:08:03,610 --> 01:08:06,130 if you ask who's going to be harmed by climate change, 1565 01:08:06,130 --> 01:08:09,250 it's mostly the developing world, right? 1566 01:08:09,250 --> 01:08:12,100 I mean, we can afford to build a wall around Manhattan 1567 01:08:12,100 --> 01:08:13,960 to deal with sea level rise. 1568 01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:17,090 Bangladesh can't build a wall. 1569 01:08:17,090 --> 01:08:18,700 But of course, the developing world 1570 01:08:18,700 --> 01:08:21,010 is also driving climate change if you 1571 01:08:21,010 --> 01:08:23,890 look at the growth in emissions, as we talked about 1572 01:08:23,890 --> 01:08:25,120 on several occasions. 1573 01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,010 There's just no obvious fix. 1574 01:08:27,010 --> 01:08:31,060 So the green growth is trying to-- is an attempt by a whole 1575 01:08:31,060 --> 01:08:36,939 set of staff people to advocate for massive change in the way 1576 01:08:36,939 --> 01:08:41,560 the world runs that's probably not going to work-- 1577 01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:43,908 not going to work politically, which 1578 01:08:43,908 --> 01:08:46,450 is one reason why I didn't feel like doing an hour and a half 1579 01:08:46,450 --> 01:08:51,279 on it, because I think the air has gone out. 1580 01:08:51,279 --> 01:08:54,875 There will be a circus in Rio. 1581 01:08:54,875 --> 01:08:58,240 There will probably be 100 heads of state or government in Rio 1582 01:08:58,240 --> 01:08:59,979 next month. 1583 01:08:59,979 --> 01:09:05,200 I'm told hotel rooms are going for thousands of a night, 1584 01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:07,729 so it will be a big circus. 1585 01:09:07,729 --> 01:09:09,880 I'm told that the official US government 1586 01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:12,910 position is that Rio should produce 1587 01:09:12,910 --> 01:09:17,350 a clean five-page statement of principles and policies, 1588 01:09:17,350 --> 01:09:20,830 and that the current working draft is 260 pages long. 1589 01:09:24,340 --> 01:09:26,200 Diplomats do this. 1590 01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:29,410 Diplomats do this. 1591 01:09:29,410 --> 01:09:34,630 So this is the story of people trying to figure out 1592 01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:37,300 what comes after the Framework Convention on Climate 1593 01:09:37,300 --> 01:09:40,779 Change, what comes after thinking about sustainability. 1594 01:09:40,779 --> 01:09:42,490 And the answer is-- 1595 01:09:42,490 --> 01:09:45,899 or was-- a major push toward being green, 1596 01:09:45,899 --> 01:09:48,880 please, really a serious, major push. 1597 01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:51,310 I think it lacks intellectual foundation, 1598 01:09:51,310 --> 01:09:53,470 I think it lacks political foundation. 1599 01:09:53,470 --> 01:09:55,960 I think it will be much discussed at Rio 1600 01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,550 and nothing will happen. 1601 01:09:58,550 --> 01:10:01,720 I do hate the last talk to be so cynical. 1602 01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:05,380 Maybe we'll be hopeful next week when we hear your papers. 1603 01:10:05,380 --> 01:10:09,140 Do you have questions or comments on any of this? 1604 01:10:09,140 --> 01:10:11,750 That's sort of the-- this is the current diplomatic state 1605 01:10:11,750 --> 01:10:12,440 of play. 1606 01:10:12,440 --> 01:10:15,440 This is an attempt to do climate by the back door 1607 01:10:15,440 --> 01:10:17,030 and call it green. 1608 01:10:17,030 --> 01:10:20,390 It isn't going to work, sadly, I think. 1609 01:10:20,390 --> 01:10:21,332 Yeah, Julien? 1610 01:10:21,332 --> 01:10:23,540 AUDIENCE: I was just curious if you expected anything 1611 01:10:23,540 --> 01:10:27,020 like productive at all to come out of it? 1612 01:10:27,020 --> 01:10:29,990 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Well, you know, diplomacy 1613 01:10:29,990 --> 01:10:31,790 is a really strange process. 1614 01:10:31,790 --> 01:10:33,380 It's easy to mock, right? 1615 01:10:33,380 --> 01:10:38,180 Because particularly in climate, there's 1616 01:10:38,180 --> 01:10:39,590 this group of diplomats that like 1617 01:10:39,590 --> 01:10:41,240 to get together every couple of years 1618 01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:44,450 and talk and make progress. 1619 01:10:44,450 --> 01:10:49,130 But without government support, it's all just talk. 1620 01:10:49,130 --> 01:10:52,190 Given that the main problem the world sees right now 1621 01:10:52,190 --> 01:10:55,550 is slow recovery from a deep recession, 1622 01:10:55,550 --> 01:11:00,320 and given the current state of politics in the US on climate, 1623 01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:04,850 I expect lovely prose to come out of this. 1624 01:11:04,850 --> 01:11:07,760 There might be agreement on something small. 1625 01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:10,222 They might get something on forests. 1626 01:11:10,222 --> 01:11:12,680 I could give you my cynical lecture about forest protection 1627 01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:15,370 sometime. 1628 01:11:15,370 --> 01:11:17,540 As long as you don't affect the demand for wood-- 1629 01:11:17,540 --> 01:11:21,830 protecting this forest doesn't reduce the amount of wood cut. 1630 01:11:21,830 --> 01:11:25,130 But that's just the economist. 1631 01:11:25,130 --> 01:11:27,660 I expect there will be some agreements. 1632 01:11:27,660 --> 01:11:29,557 I don't think they will be very important. 1633 01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:36,440 And as I say, I expect a circus. 1634 01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:38,350 The folks in the diplomatic community 1635 01:11:38,350 --> 01:11:40,720 would say that's too cynical. 1636 01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:45,190 Even just talking with the whole world involved, 1637 01:11:45,190 --> 01:11:47,830 putting a spotlight on these issues, 1638 01:11:47,830 --> 01:11:51,430 keeping up pressure of some international kind 1639 01:11:51,430 --> 01:11:54,670 on governments that don't want to act helps. 1640 01:11:54,670 --> 01:11:59,410 Sort of the water on a stone view of the world. 1641 01:11:59,410 --> 01:12:00,760 That's what they do. 1642 01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:02,890 And every so often, there will be a chance. 1643 01:12:02,890 --> 01:12:04,210 You'll get the Montreal-- 1644 01:12:04,210 --> 01:12:07,090 you'll get the Montreal Protocol on ozone depleting gases 1645 01:12:07,090 --> 01:12:10,090 because that process had started. 1646 01:12:10,090 --> 01:12:11,900 Those meetings were being held. 1647 01:12:11,900 --> 01:12:14,380 New science came, the structure was in place, 1648 01:12:14,380 --> 01:12:16,480 the support mobilized, bang. 1649 01:12:16,480 --> 01:12:18,790 We got a very constructive international agreement. 1650 01:12:18,790 --> 01:12:21,100 It isn't going to happen here because the preconditions 1651 01:12:21,100 --> 01:12:23,140 aren't there. 1652 01:12:23,140 --> 01:12:26,725 But the water will drip on the stone. 1653 01:12:26,725 --> 01:12:28,100 The water will drip on the stone. 1654 01:12:28,100 --> 01:12:28,850 Rory? 1655 01:12:28,850 --> 01:12:31,910 AUDIENCE: Has anyone-- well, [INAUDIBLE] response to-- 1656 01:12:31,910 --> 01:12:35,255 he was saying, the rich world didn't follow a green growth 1657 01:12:35,255 --> 01:12:37,310 path, but they followed the greenest growth 1658 01:12:37,310 --> 01:12:40,340 path available to them at the time within economics. 1659 01:12:40,340 --> 01:12:43,343 And you could argue that Britain, if they could have, 1660 01:12:43,343 --> 01:12:45,260 Britain wouldn't have covered all their cities 1661 01:12:45,260 --> 01:12:46,730 in smog and soot. 1662 01:12:46,730 --> 01:12:47,850 But they couldn't. 1663 01:12:47,850 --> 01:12:51,740 The growth is good for its own sake. 1664 01:12:51,740 --> 01:12:54,290 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Yeah. 1665 01:12:54,290 --> 01:12:57,060 That's a decent debating point. 1666 01:12:57,060 --> 01:13:00,410 But you also say, when did the rich world 1667 01:13:00,410 --> 01:13:03,880 begin to take the environment seriously? 1668 01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:07,580 And when did it begin to have any impact on policy? 1669 01:13:07,580 --> 01:13:10,980 And that's sort of '60s, '70s, right? 1670 01:13:10,980 --> 01:13:12,240 You don't see much-- 1671 01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:14,870 you don't see much conscious thinking about it. 1672 01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:23,060 The big US event was DDT and Rachel Carson's Silent Spring, 1673 01:13:23,060 --> 01:13:25,820 which was-- do you remember? 1674 01:13:25,820 --> 01:13:26,600 '57? 1675 01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:27,470 '62? 1676 01:13:27,470 --> 01:13:30,250 Around there-- around there. 1677 01:13:30,250 --> 01:13:32,903 Birds were dying because DDT was making their shells too thin 1678 01:13:32,903 --> 01:13:34,070 and they couldn't reproduce. 1679 01:13:34,070 --> 01:13:36,195 That was like oh my God, our chemicals are actually 1680 01:13:36,195 --> 01:13:37,430 doing something out there. 1681 01:13:37,430 --> 01:13:40,148 But to most people, better things through better 1682 01:13:40,148 --> 01:13:41,190 living through chemistry. 1683 01:13:41,190 --> 01:13:44,000 So to argue that we were doing the best we could 1684 01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,790 is to argue that we were doing it unconsciously. 1685 01:13:46,790 --> 01:13:50,210 And that may be true, but it's not-- 1686 01:13:50,210 --> 01:13:51,910 that's not that persuasive. 1687 01:13:51,910 --> 01:13:53,840 It's a good shot, though. 1688 01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:54,740 Anything else? 1689 01:13:54,740 --> 01:13:57,750 Anything else on your minds? 1690 01:13:57,750 --> 01:13:59,460 Feeling ready for the quiz on Wednesday? 1691 01:13:59,460 --> 01:14:03,030 You were brilliantly reviewed on Friday. 1692 01:14:03,030 --> 01:14:04,170 Ready to go? 1693 01:14:04,170 --> 01:14:05,520 OK. 1694 01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:07,490 Off we go.