1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,800 The following content is provided 2 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,000 under a creative commons license. 3 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,360 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 4 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:10,690 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 5 00:00:10,690 --> 00:00:13,350 To make a donation or view additional materials 6 00:00:13,350 --> 00:00:17,190 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 7 00:00:17,190 --> 00:00:18,400 at ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:25,512 --> 00:00:29,220 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: I want to say a little bit about Hexion 9 00:00:29,220 --> 00:00:36,840 to relate to where we are today and then do biodiesel, 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,450 which is a great case. 11 00:00:39,450 --> 00:00:42,390 Obviously if Darren were making his own decision, 12 00:00:42,390 --> 00:00:46,650 if Darren were the CEO or Darren owned the company, 13 00:00:46,650 --> 00:00:50,430 then his decision to use combined heat and power 14 00:00:50,430 --> 00:00:53,880 to generate would reflect his preferences, whatever 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,630 they happen to be. 16 00:00:55,630 --> 00:00:58,480 And if Darren was consistent over time, 17 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,330 you could predict Darren's decisions 18 00:01:01,330 --> 00:01:04,470 from his past decisions. 19 00:01:04,470 --> 00:01:06,750 But it's a committee. 20 00:01:06,750 --> 00:01:10,830 And the case doesn't go into-- in my modification, 21 00:01:10,830 --> 00:01:14,700 the case didn't really go into who was on that committee 22 00:01:14,700 --> 00:01:16,500 and who the doubters are. 23 00:01:16,500 --> 00:01:20,740 But it's clear he had to get by a group of people. 24 00:01:20,740 --> 00:01:25,710 And there's no guarantee that a group of people is consistent. 25 00:01:25,710 --> 00:01:28,170 They had different questions. 26 00:01:28,170 --> 00:01:29,940 You could read into those questions 27 00:01:29,940 --> 00:01:32,970 different preferences about downtime, different worries 28 00:01:32,970 --> 00:01:34,080 about bonuses. 29 00:01:36,990 --> 00:01:40,020 You couldn't really tell-- 30 00:01:40,020 --> 00:01:43,080 again, you'd have to have a lot more than the questions they 31 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,150 asked or the objections they posed to predict 32 00:01:45,150 --> 00:01:47,095 what the decision would be. 33 00:01:47,095 --> 00:01:49,470 It sounds like Darren would have just run the spreadsheet 34 00:01:49,470 --> 00:01:51,480 and done it. 35 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,180 But others, who knows? 36 00:01:54,180 --> 00:02:00,210 The terms that Cohen, March, & Olson use, 37 00:02:00,210 --> 00:02:04,170 this is a group with problematic preferences. 38 00:02:04,170 --> 00:02:06,390 And groups have problematic preferences. 39 00:02:06,390 --> 00:02:09,479 There's no reason in principle why groups are 40 00:02:09,479 --> 00:02:11,790 consistent in making decisions. 41 00:02:11,790 --> 00:02:14,220 You may recall we did this voting paradox 42 00:02:14,220 --> 00:02:18,600 thing some time ago where if I have preferences arranged 43 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,630 correctly, I can get any decision I want by deciding 44 00:02:21,630 --> 00:02:26,100 which pairs you consider first. 45 00:02:26,100 --> 00:02:28,740 So there's no reason that a group would be consistent. 46 00:02:28,740 --> 00:02:31,880 And in fact, if you think about just that committee, 47 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,920 you'd like to know who shows up, you'd 48 00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:35,690 like to know what arguments are made, 49 00:02:35,690 --> 00:02:37,790 you'd like to know who's prepared, 50 00:02:37,790 --> 00:02:41,060 you'd like to know what other items are on the agenda. 51 00:02:41,060 --> 00:02:44,840 If you've been in committees, you know how this works. 52 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,940 Sometimes somebody will lose an argument. 53 00:02:47,940 --> 00:02:49,730 And to keep that person on board, 54 00:02:49,730 --> 00:02:53,310 they get to win the next one, et cetera, et cetera. 55 00:02:53,310 --> 00:02:57,110 So Cohen, March, and Olsen talk about problematic preferences 56 00:02:57,110 --> 00:03:00,380 in organized anarchiies like universities. 57 00:03:00,380 --> 00:03:01,910 The only point I want to make here 58 00:03:01,910 --> 00:03:04,670 is that if you think about Hexion, 59 00:03:04,670 --> 00:03:06,350 and you think about Darren trying 60 00:03:06,350 --> 00:03:11,030 to get this project approved through some kind of committee, 61 00:03:11,030 --> 00:03:13,840 that story holds-- 62 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,730 who shows up, what are they interested in, 63 00:03:16,730 --> 00:03:19,810 what are their motivations, how prepared are they, what 64 00:03:19,810 --> 00:03:22,900 other issues are up that day. 65 00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:25,480 You can't assume consistency, and you may not 66 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,760 be able to predict decisions. 67 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,768 So we're going to see some of this, 68 00:03:30,768 --> 00:03:32,560 and we're going to see some other features. 69 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,727 We'll see this, and we'll also see some other things 70 00:03:34,727 --> 00:03:37,990 in biodiesel which has to do with a more 71 00:03:37,990 --> 00:03:43,570 complicated and presumably anarchic organization-- 72 00:03:43,570 --> 00:03:46,150 us. 73 00:03:46,150 --> 00:03:51,430 So the story you all know, a student-led group, simple goal, 74 00:03:51,430 --> 00:03:58,450 you take the used cooking oil and convert it into diesel fuel 75 00:03:58,450 --> 00:04:00,370 to replace the diesel-- 76 00:04:00,370 --> 00:04:03,910 save the reprocessing cost and use it 77 00:04:03,910 --> 00:04:06,340 in tech shuttles, other equipment. 78 00:04:06,340 --> 00:04:09,190 Lots of diesel engines around campus. 79 00:04:09,190 --> 00:04:11,380 I assume you've all read the case. 80 00:04:11,380 --> 00:04:13,840 There is a short video that's actually-- 81 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:19,920 if I can get it to work, it's sort of a nice description 82 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,160 told by the participants. 83 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:24,960 And I'm going to refer back to this. 84 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:25,627 [VIDEO PLAYBACK] 85 00:04:25,627 --> 00:04:27,445 - Animal, so animal weight. 86 00:04:27,445 --> 00:04:30,540 - The whole biodiesel from used vegetable oil 87 00:04:30,540 --> 00:04:32,236 is definitely a good idea because it 88 00:04:32,236 --> 00:04:35,990 reduces waste as well as creates a useful product. 89 00:04:35,990 --> 00:04:40,950 - Biodiesel MIT, the student-run organization that's been 90 00:04:40,950 --> 00:04:43,560 working to get a biodiesel processor installed on campus 91 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,745 is going to take the used vegetable oil from campus 92 00:04:46,745 --> 00:04:49,695 dining from fryolators and all that kind of stuff and convert 93 00:04:49,695 --> 00:04:51,570 it into fuel for the tech shuttles on campus. 94 00:04:51,570 --> 00:04:55,960 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: This was made in 2010, this video. 95 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,285 - So the smell of French fries [INAUDIBLE].. 96 00:05:00,285 --> 00:05:03,768 - I got involved because I heard about biodiesel. 97 00:05:03,768 --> 00:05:05,185 I was working in renewable energy. 98 00:05:05,185 --> 00:05:08,545 - I heard they were looking for someone to do some testing. 99 00:05:08,545 --> 00:05:11,890 - When I got here as a freshman, I was really looking for some 100 00:05:11,890 --> 00:05:14,305 sort of energy and [INAUDIBLE] environmental initiative. 101 00:05:14,305 --> 00:05:17,490 - I joined the group actually as the website manager. 102 00:05:17,490 --> 00:05:19,310 - They needed me to find them help. 103 00:05:19,310 --> 00:05:22,610 So, I figured I have the skill set to help with the project. 104 00:05:22,610 --> 00:05:25,810 - I tried from the beginning to say 105 00:05:25,810 --> 00:05:27,540 this is not a research problem. 106 00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:28,890 It is an implementation problem. 107 00:05:28,890 --> 00:05:31,800 [CLASSICAL MUSIC PLAYING] 108 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,290 - The group had been told, if you get funding, 109 00:05:35,290 --> 00:05:36,055 it'll be easier. 110 00:05:36,055 --> 00:05:38,480 - The project's going to pay for itself within a year. 111 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:44,920 - We also wrote up a proposal for the mtvU GE Eco-imagination 112 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:45,590 Challenge. 113 00:05:48,572 --> 00:05:52,670 The charismatic view from mtvU came in first. 114 00:05:52,670 --> 00:05:57,250 And they had balloons, they had this giant check. 115 00:05:57,250 --> 00:06:00,220 I had to go take a math test after that. 116 00:06:00,220 --> 00:06:05,018 The administration had theoretically 117 00:06:05,018 --> 00:06:05,935 supported the project. 118 00:06:05,935 --> 00:06:09,130 - You can parallel this as people 119 00:06:09,130 --> 00:06:10,690 in a community going to government 120 00:06:10,690 --> 00:06:12,760 and saying, we have the solution. 121 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,830 We just need a place for it, and maybe 122 00:06:15,830 --> 00:06:17,368 incentives, economic incentive. 123 00:06:17,368 --> 00:06:18,910 - I really didn't think it would take 124 00:06:18,910 --> 00:06:21,320 that much time because the group had just won $25,000. 125 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,037 - But we had no experience with implementation. 126 00:06:25,037 --> 00:06:26,370 We have no experience in policy. 127 00:06:26,370 --> 00:06:27,578 - We still didn't have space. 128 00:06:27,578 --> 00:06:30,270 We still didn't have a processor. 129 00:06:30,270 --> 00:06:34,090 There wasn't really anything tangible that people could see. 130 00:06:34,090 --> 00:06:40,550 So we lost a lot of, I guess, recognition and student 131 00:06:40,550 --> 00:06:41,050 support. 132 00:06:41,050 --> 00:06:43,990 - We had the technical problem solved, 133 00:06:43,990 --> 00:06:47,320 so we thought everything else was easy. 134 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:48,850 This experience actually taught me 135 00:06:48,850 --> 00:06:50,900 that it's actually the other way around. 136 00:06:50,900 --> 00:06:52,750 So even if you have the technology, 137 00:06:52,750 --> 00:06:55,420 if it's not going to be implemented 138 00:06:55,420 --> 00:06:57,880 by the government or the administration, 139 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,186 nothing's going to happen. 140 00:06:59,186 --> 00:07:03,300 - So we got to a point at the very end of the Spring 141 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:06,730 semester in 2008 where the administrative organization 142 00:07:06,730 --> 00:07:09,670 that had been helping us look for space basically 143 00:07:09,670 --> 00:07:12,700 just said our least expensive may turn out 144 00:07:12,700 --> 00:07:15,240 like $160,000 in renovation. 145 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:16,610 This is really just infeasible. 146 00:07:16,610 --> 00:07:18,527 We're going to stop looking for space for you. 147 00:07:18,527 --> 00:07:20,270 And I'm sorry, we can help you. 148 00:07:20,270 --> 00:07:22,810 So we agreed that we would terminate the group. 149 00:07:22,810 --> 00:07:25,810 - We came to a conclusion after a lot of struggling, especially 150 00:07:25,810 --> 00:07:31,050 because it seemed at the point that all the effort was wasted. 151 00:07:31,050 --> 00:07:33,580 - There's actually, like immediately 152 00:07:33,580 --> 00:07:38,440 calling that, a huge student uprising of support. 153 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,210 Three or four days later, we get a call 154 00:07:40,210 --> 00:07:42,220 from the Kennedy [INAUDIBLE]. 155 00:07:42,220 --> 00:07:44,198 And practically Facilities was all like, hey, 156 00:07:44,198 --> 00:07:45,115 we can get back again. 157 00:07:45,115 --> 00:07:47,282 We found you space this time. 158 00:07:47,282 --> 00:07:51,175 This is Biodiesel@MIT's biodiesel processor. 159 00:07:51,175 --> 00:07:53,950 - Being part of the group has helped 160 00:07:53,950 --> 00:07:56,750 me realize how important the politics of it all can be. 161 00:07:56,750 --> 00:07:59,610 - I'm so convinced that the policy is more important. 162 00:07:59,610 --> 00:08:02,005 - It's just pushed me to a minor in policy. 163 00:08:02,005 --> 00:08:04,360 - Putting different groups of people 164 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,705 together always produced pretty good results. 165 00:08:07,705 --> 00:08:09,195 - There have to be first members. 166 00:08:09,195 --> 00:08:10,930 - Even if you have a good idea, it 167 00:08:10,930 --> 00:08:12,790 doesn't really matter if you have to change 168 00:08:12,790 --> 00:08:13,990 the way people do things. 169 00:08:13,990 --> 00:08:15,700 - But after Biodiesel@MIT, I know 170 00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:19,090 that people will be able to do things like this 171 00:08:19,090 --> 00:08:20,324 much more easily. 172 00:08:20,324 --> 00:08:23,782 [MUSIC PLAYING] 173 00:08:53,327 --> 00:08:53,910 [END PLAYBACK] 174 00:08:53,910 --> 00:08:55,923 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: OK. 175 00:08:55,923 --> 00:08:57,590 The group's website doesn't seem to have 176 00:08:57,590 --> 00:08:59,720 been touched since last summer, so I don't know 177 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,430 what its current status is. 178 00:09:01,430 --> 00:09:05,360 But they did manage to produce fuel. 179 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,760 So I'll just run lightly through the history 180 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,460 because I want to spend some time on the discussion. 181 00:09:10,460 --> 00:09:13,770 Did that raise any questions vis-a-vis the case, by the way? 182 00:09:13,770 --> 00:09:15,530 Is that pretty clear? 183 00:09:15,530 --> 00:09:18,350 The first time we taught this case, 184 00:09:18,350 --> 00:09:23,950 Sara presented it, so nice to see her again. 185 00:09:23,950 --> 00:09:25,470 So they talked to the administration 186 00:09:25,470 --> 00:09:28,500 and they were told, if you have dollars and space, why, 187 00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:30,830 that's great. 188 00:09:30,830 --> 00:09:37,680 They won this award, they looked for space from the full of 2007 189 00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:45,780 through the spring of 2008, they gave up, space was found, 190 00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:47,470 and they installed the process. 191 00:09:47,470 --> 00:09:48,960 So they actually did produce fuel. 192 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,880 And at least according to the website, 193 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,700 it's in use, or was in use, at least as of last summer. 194 00:09:54,700 --> 00:09:55,500 So there it is. 195 00:09:58,170 --> 00:10:01,260 It's a nice project if you think about it. 196 00:10:01,260 --> 00:10:04,510 From the MIT point of view, it's got some research. 197 00:10:04,510 --> 00:10:07,110 Somebody had to do the cost analysis. 198 00:10:07,110 --> 00:10:09,000 They had to get this stuff tested. 199 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,890 They had to get the system work. 200 00:10:10,890 --> 00:10:13,170 They had to design the logistics, 201 00:10:13,170 --> 00:10:18,381 a lot of interesting things, good photos. 202 00:10:18,381 --> 00:10:20,530 It comes out a little murky you will see, 203 00:10:20,530 --> 00:10:25,530 but it can be made usable. 204 00:10:25,530 --> 00:10:28,420 But it took a long time. 205 00:10:28,420 --> 00:10:30,790 And you got the frustration in that video. 206 00:10:30,790 --> 00:10:33,940 And I hope you got the frustration in the case. 207 00:10:33,940 --> 00:10:39,700 A project that seemed like such a good thing, and the case 208 00:10:39,700 --> 00:10:45,201 goes on, it saves energy, it's clean burning, it's swell, 209 00:10:45,201 --> 00:10:48,400 it took a long time. 210 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,930 So I want to talk about, and we will talk at some length about 211 00:10:51,930 --> 00:10:56,070 why that happened because I think this really is a good 212 00:10:56,070 --> 00:11:01,140 case in terms of what it takes to make organizations change, 213 00:11:01,140 --> 00:11:05,040 that's what this is about, and why they don't. 214 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,640 So the conventional explanation, and you 215 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,580 could see it in Sara's face was, gee, if only 216 00:11:11,580 --> 00:11:16,155 you'd been a better leader, if only, if only, if only. 217 00:11:16,155 --> 00:11:19,620 The whole Women in Science Initiative here a few years ago 218 00:11:19,620 --> 00:11:23,280 really did have a big impact, really did change things. 219 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:24,610 How come that worked? 220 00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:30,648 How come that went off right away and this didn't? 221 00:11:30,648 --> 00:11:32,690 The alternative might be that there was something 222 00:11:32,690 --> 00:11:34,130 about the organization. 223 00:11:34,130 --> 00:11:37,910 And it wasn't a matter of better or worse leadership. 224 00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:39,860 It was a matter of strategy running up 225 00:11:39,860 --> 00:11:42,150 against organizational problems. 226 00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:44,900 So I think there are more things in the story. 227 00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:48,140 What we got in the case, and what you get in the video, 228 00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:50,420 is they tried real hard, they gave up, 229 00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:53,360 and then suddenly the space was found. 230 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,430 And it's got to be more complicated than that. 231 00:11:56,430 --> 00:11:58,700 So we think-- 232 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:02,530 I think context is really important. 233 00:12:02,530 --> 00:12:07,680 So let's walk through a little bit of this. 234 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:10,850 So in the video, Sara talks about "and we 235 00:12:10,850 --> 00:12:13,400 talk to the administration and the administration 236 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,570 was supportive." 237 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:17,850 And you hear, that, you hear people 238 00:12:17,850 --> 00:12:21,960 talk about large organizations in the singular a lot. 239 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,140 BP does this, Goldman Sachs does that. 240 00:12:25,140 --> 00:12:28,470 The administration does one thing and another. 241 00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:31,650 Well, it's not a black box. 242 00:12:31,650 --> 00:12:33,950 It's a set of people. 243 00:12:33,950 --> 00:12:36,140 That's just the top set. 244 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:38,684 That's the top layer. 245 00:12:38,684 --> 00:12:41,780 And there are rules. 246 00:12:41,780 --> 00:12:45,005 That shows reporting relationships, who reports up 247 00:12:45,005 --> 00:12:47,630 through the provost, who reports up through the chancellor, who 248 00:12:47,630 --> 00:12:50,690 reports up through the executive vice president and treasurer, 249 00:12:50,690 --> 00:12:53,060 a little dotted line responsibility here 250 00:12:53,060 --> 00:12:56,270 from Israel, a Sloan graduate. 251 00:12:56,270 --> 00:12:57,920 She's a Sloan graduate, but never mind. 252 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,637 If you look at MIT, there's a formal hierarchy. 253 00:13:04,637 --> 00:13:06,470 I'll show you some more organization charts. 254 00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:10,040 People report to people, particularly 255 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,050 outside the faculty realm, particularly 256 00:13:12,050 --> 00:13:15,470 in the staff side of the operation, which is what 257 00:13:15,470 --> 00:13:17,510 they were largely dealing with. 258 00:13:17,510 --> 00:13:19,340 They're specialized responsibilities. 259 00:13:19,340 --> 00:13:22,520 Different people have different jobs, different things 260 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,440 they're judged on. 261 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:30,380 And they're a set of rules, formal, informal, 262 00:13:30,380 --> 00:13:32,630 but mostly formal rules and procedures 263 00:13:32,630 --> 00:13:33,800 about how we do things. 264 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:35,960 You can go on the MIT website, and you 265 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,600 can get the rules and regulations of the faculty. 266 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,270 You can get a document called Policies and Procedures that 267 00:13:41,270 --> 00:13:43,220 lays out a lot. 268 00:13:43,220 --> 00:13:46,430 In various other places, there are sets of rules 269 00:13:46,430 --> 00:13:47,570 deep into organizations. 270 00:13:47,570 --> 00:13:48,770 I mean, it's a bureaucracy. 271 00:13:48,770 --> 00:13:52,580 That's not-- that's a technical term, an organization that 272 00:13:52,580 --> 00:13:54,980 has all of those things. 273 00:13:54,980 --> 00:13:56,810 Most large organizations have to be 274 00:13:56,810 --> 00:13:59,290 bureaucracies to get things done. 275 00:13:59,290 --> 00:14:02,123 You got to have hierarchies and reporting responsibilities, 276 00:14:02,123 --> 00:14:03,790 and you've got to divide responsibility, 277 00:14:03,790 --> 00:14:08,530 and you've got to have some rules for how we do stuff. 278 00:14:08,530 --> 00:14:09,820 That makes for efficiency. 279 00:14:09,820 --> 00:14:10,945 It doesn't make for change. 280 00:14:13,930 --> 00:14:17,800 There are also a set of informal rules. 281 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,150 Who votes with whom? 282 00:14:19,150 --> 00:14:20,410 Who talks to whom? 283 00:14:20,410 --> 00:14:22,750 Who supports whom? 284 00:14:22,750 --> 00:14:25,420 What are the communication channels 285 00:14:25,420 --> 00:14:28,780 in this complicated entity? 286 00:14:28,780 --> 00:14:32,440 So, whenever you think about changing an organization 287 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,380 or about how an organization behaves, 288 00:14:35,380 --> 00:14:37,270 you got to think about it in the plural. 289 00:14:37,270 --> 00:14:40,150 It's a set of people, it's a set of relationships, 290 00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:46,690 it's a set of rules, a set of responsibilities. 291 00:14:46,690 --> 00:14:53,970 And here are-- oh, yeah, let's go to the next one. 292 00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:58,580 So this is a description-- 293 00:14:58,580 --> 00:15:00,410 I'm not quite sure where it's from-- 294 00:15:00,410 --> 00:15:02,870 of what Biodiesel@MIT does. 295 00:15:02,870 --> 00:15:06,200 They work with-- they have to work with Campus Dining, 296 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,110 Facilities, Environmental Health and Safety, 297 00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:11,840 MBP Bioenergy, I think, was the reactor supplier, 298 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:13,100 and the Energy Initiative. 299 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:17,870 And it's designed to do some training and to make biodiesel. 300 00:15:17,870 --> 00:15:20,510 That's sort of where this organization 301 00:15:20,510 --> 00:15:24,200 has to be situated, has to get space, 302 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,340 has to pass Environmental Health and Safety because things 303 00:15:28,340 --> 00:15:31,370 can go wrong with the reaction. 304 00:15:31,370 --> 00:15:35,750 And you've got a lot of material around. 305 00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:37,730 The Energy Initiative, not so clear. 306 00:15:37,730 --> 00:15:38,900 Health and Safety, yeah. 307 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:40,640 Campus Dining to get the fuel. 308 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,410 Lots of places. 309 00:15:43,410 --> 00:15:47,700 Who was the most troublesome from the case? 310 00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:48,900 What parts? 311 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:49,900 Max. 312 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:51,900 MAX: --trying to find them space. 313 00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:55,630 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: That was the CRSP, the Committee 314 00:15:55,630 --> 00:15:57,760 for Review of Space Planning. 315 00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:58,960 Anybody else troublesome? 316 00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:59,230 Scott. 317 00:15:59,230 --> 00:16:00,647 SCOTT: Also the Health and Safety, 318 00:16:00,647 --> 00:16:03,160 it was a lot of different back and forth. 319 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:04,810 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Health and Safety. 320 00:16:04,810 --> 00:16:07,300 Anybody else? 321 00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:08,152 Yeah. 322 00:16:08,152 --> 00:16:11,275 AUDIENCE: They said something about the janitorial service. 323 00:16:11,275 --> 00:16:13,690 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: That's facilities basically, yup. 324 00:16:13,690 --> 00:16:15,232 AUDIENCE: And there were members that 325 00:16:15,232 --> 00:16:18,064 were in class familiar with isolating systems. 326 00:16:18,064 --> 00:16:19,600 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: OK. 327 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,050 Let's unpack it a little bit. 328 00:16:21,050 --> 00:16:26,200 Let's see, Facilities and Environmental Health and Safety 329 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,980 report up through the executive vice president and treasurer. 330 00:16:29,980 --> 00:16:31,750 We can see them there. 331 00:16:31,750 --> 00:16:35,950 This unpacks the organization from the website. 332 00:16:35,950 --> 00:16:40,150 There's Facilities, there's the Environmental Health and Safety 333 00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:42,190 reporting up through the executive vice 334 00:16:42,190 --> 00:16:44,320 president and treasurer. 335 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,960 What are their day jobs? 336 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,210 What's Environmental Health and Safety's day job? 337 00:16:49,210 --> 00:16:50,800 What are they mostly concerned with? 338 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,950 They don't exist to provide space for student activities. 339 00:16:53,950 --> 00:16:56,372 What do they exist to do? 340 00:16:56,372 --> 00:16:56,872 Jacob. 341 00:16:56,872 --> 00:16:58,789 JACOB: I know they do a lot of safety training 342 00:16:58,789 --> 00:17:02,360 for people for different labs and students who are working 343 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:02,860 [INAUDIBLE]. 344 00:17:02,860 --> 00:17:04,235 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: So their job 345 00:17:04,235 --> 00:17:08,230 is to prevent accidents, and incidents, and hazards. 346 00:17:08,230 --> 00:17:09,829 They do training. 347 00:17:09,829 --> 00:17:12,460 They also work with people to make 348 00:17:12,460 --> 00:17:15,280 sure they're in compliance with a variety of regulations 349 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,760 and try to instill best practices to make 350 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:19,940 the place safe. 351 00:17:19,940 --> 00:17:21,819 They want to reduce risk. 352 00:17:21,819 --> 00:17:23,270 They want to reduce risk. 353 00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:24,490 What about Facilities? 354 00:17:24,490 --> 00:17:27,430 What's its main job? 355 00:17:27,430 --> 00:17:28,810 What's its day job? 356 00:17:28,810 --> 00:17:30,685 Again-- yeah, Columbus. 357 00:17:30,685 --> 00:17:34,030 COLUMBUS: To make sure that the physical buildings are 358 00:17:34,030 --> 00:17:35,401 operating correctly. 359 00:17:35,401 --> 00:17:37,930 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: That the physical plant runs, 360 00:17:37,930 --> 00:17:40,673 that it's clean, that it's warm when it needs to be warm, 361 00:17:40,673 --> 00:17:42,340 that it's cool when it needs to be cool, 362 00:17:42,340 --> 00:17:46,510 that the plumbing works, the electricity works, things 363 00:17:46,510 --> 00:17:48,520 are clean and landscaped and all that. 364 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,860 They're concerned with the physical plant, 365 00:17:50,860 --> 00:17:52,990 keeping it going. 366 00:17:52,990 --> 00:17:57,970 OK, CRSP, CRSP is a more complicated story. 367 00:17:57,970 --> 00:18:00,580 Sorry, that's the acronym. 368 00:18:00,580 --> 00:18:03,760 The space planners are a more complicated story. 369 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,540 But just to give you a sense, here's-- what do I have first? 370 00:18:07,540 --> 00:18:09,610 Here's Facilities. 371 00:18:09,610 --> 00:18:12,130 So Facilities-- I don't have people down there. 372 00:18:12,130 --> 00:18:15,190 But there are people in all these boxes. 373 00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:19,210 That's what Facilities looks like, 374 00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:22,570 worrying about the utilities, worrying about security, 375 00:18:22,570 --> 00:18:25,480 janitorial services, grounds, making sure 376 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,810 the mail gets delivered, and a whole lot of overhead. 377 00:18:29,810 --> 00:18:32,830 That's the planning, building new construction, renovation, 378 00:18:32,830 --> 00:18:34,690 and so forth. 379 00:18:34,690 --> 00:18:36,910 A fairly complicated organization, 380 00:18:36,910 --> 00:18:40,810 not unusually complicated for an institution this size, 381 00:18:40,810 --> 00:18:43,120 but fairly complicated. 382 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:44,020 And lots of people. 383 00:18:44,020 --> 00:18:45,532 And everybody's got a job. 384 00:18:45,532 --> 00:18:46,990 Whoever these folks are, they worry 385 00:18:46,990 --> 00:18:48,365 about getting the mail delivered. 386 00:18:48,365 --> 00:18:52,510 And these folks worry about the grounds and landscaping. 387 00:18:52,510 --> 00:18:53,720 That's their job. 388 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,180 That's how they're evaluated. 389 00:18:57,830 --> 00:19:03,830 And you don't see a provide lab space for students. 390 00:19:03,830 --> 00:19:05,600 Not their job. 391 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,220 Environmental Health and Safety-- 392 00:19:07,220 --> 00:19:08,810 you have to have an MIT certificate 393 00:19:08,810 --> 00:19:12,050 to get this org chart, which I don't quite understand. 394 00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:15,590 But I had to type in a bunch of credentials twice to get it. 395 00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:19,220 But there's Environmental Health and Safety. 396 00:19:19,220 --> 00:19:22,300 You got folks worried about the reactor, 397 00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:24,780 a variety of other responsibilities, 398 00:19:24,780 --> 00:19:26,330 some technicians out here. 399 00:19:26,330 --> 00:19:29,790 A whole set of people concerned with minimizing risk. 400 00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:33,510 So these are simple, focused organizations. 401 00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:37,130 So when Sara talks about "the administration," we talked 402 00:19:37,130 --> 00:19:39,710 to the administration, the first question 403 00:19:39,710 --> 00:19:42,910 is, who, who did you talk to? 404 00:19:42,910 --> 00:19:45,130 What was that person's role in the hierarchy? 405 00:19:45,130 --> 00:19:47,500 What was their responsibility? 406 00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:49,420 What rules were they operating under? 407 00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:52,960 And how are they judged? 408 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,510 Now, let me come to the really interesting one. 409 00:19:56,510 --> 00:19:58,540 This is CRSP. 410 00:19:58,540 --> 00:20:01,630 I have to tell you in nine years as dean, 411 00:20:01,630 --> 00:20:04,750 I never actually knew who was all on CRSP. 412 00:20:04,750 --> 00:20:09,900 But CRSP was like one of-- 413 00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:13,800 I can't remember whether it was a Carter advisor or a Clinton 414 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,300 advisor who said, when I die, I want 415 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:17,940 to come back as the bond market because everybody's 416 00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:19,878 afraid of the bond market. 417 00:20:19,878 --> 00:20:22,170 Well, I'd like to come back as CRSP because everybody's 418 00:20:22,170 --> 00:20:24,080 afraid of CRSP. 419 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:28,120 At MIT, space isn't priced. 420 00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:30,790 Departments, labs, don't rent space. 421 00:20:30,790 --> 00:20:33,220 Space is allocated. 422 00:20:33,220 --> 00:20:36,037 But space is a status symbol. 423 00:20:36,037 --> 00:20:38,370 If you're running a lab, you want to have a lot of space 424 00:20:38,370 --> 00:20:40,410 because that means you're active, you're busy. 425 00:20:40,410 --> 00:20:42,240 I mean, those of us who work at our desks, 426 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:43,560 we're out of this game. 427 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,130 But in most of MIT, space is a status symbol, 428 00:20:47,130 --> 00:20:50,100 and CRSP allocates space. 429 00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:54,210 CRSP is a nice illustration, its processes, 430 00:20:54,210 --> 00:20:56,690 of the garbage can model. 431 00:20:56,690 --> 00:21:02,310 First, CRSP deals with proposed solutions. 432 00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:05,760 And this is a characteristic of lots of entities and lots 433 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,740 of organizations. 434 00:21:07,740 --> 00:21:10,050 How can Congress, when it decides 435 00:21:10,050 --> 00:21:12,630 to actually do something, get legislation written in a hurry? 436 00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:17,130 Because somebody's drafted it, somebody's got the answer. 437 00:21:17,130 --> 00:21:19,590 They're just waiting for the right question, 438 00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:22,470 just waiting for the right question. 439 00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:28,260 Some years ago when Rush was moved from September 440 00:21:28,260 --> 00:21:31,830 to later in the year, that was a proposal acted on. 441 00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:34,510 There was no problem definition from which that emerged 442 00:21:34,510 --> 00:21:36,740 as the optimal solution. 443 00:21:36,740 --> 00:21:41,410 This is a very standard mode of operation of organizations. 444 00:21:41,410 --> 00:21:43,450 There are solutions. 445 00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:45,700 If you want to actually think about another university 446 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:49,420 example, many colleges and universities around the country 447 00:21:49,420 --> 00:21:53,500 have abolished their Greek systems over time. 448 00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:57,610 Was that the optimal solution to a carefully defined problem? 449 00:21:57,610 --> 00:22:00,130 No, it was a solution that people put forward, 450 00:22:00,130 --> 00:22:03,470 a proposal that people put forward that was evaluated. 451 00:22:03,470 --> 00:22:07,150 So CRSP acts only on proposed solutions, 452 00:22:07,150 --> 00:22:12,940 only on "I need to do this with this space because," not-- 453 00:22:12,940 --> 00:22:15,330 and you can see why. 454 00:22:15,330 --> 00:22:17,850 You can't sit down-- 455 00:22:17,850 --> 00:22:21,750 they process many requests with great regularity. 456 00:22:21,750 --> 00:22:24,120 Particularly this renovations subcommittee, 457 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:25,800 which is what's at interest here, 458 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,560 meets twice a month, every other week, 459 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,240 and processes dozens of requests of various sizes, dozens 460 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:33,990 of requests. 461 00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:36,270 You can't say, is this the absolute best way 462 00:22:36,270 --> 00:22:37,620 to meet this need? 463 00:22:37,620 --> 00:22:38,885 It's like, is this OK? 464 00:22:38,885 --> 00:22:39,510 Does this work? 465 00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:42,010 Can we do this? 466 00:22:42,010 --> 00:22:44,650 Fluid participation was a characteristic 467 00:22:44,650 --> 00:22:46,000 of the garbage can model. 468 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,320 Well, look at all those people. 469 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,120 Does everybody come to every meeting? 470 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:51,960 Probably not. 471 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,180 Is everybody thoroughly prepared on every issue? 472 00:22:54,180 --> 00:22:55,920 Probably not. 473 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,560 Does everybody care passionately about every issue? 474 00:22:58,560 --> 00:22:59,670 Probably not. 475 00:22:59,670 --> 00:23:03,990 And everybody's got, with one or two exceptions, 476 00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:08,300 has got a day job, has got a day job. 477 00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:12,680 So, exactly who's active in making a decision 478 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,900 is going to vary. 479 00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:16,700 It's going to vary. 480 00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:20,290 So if you want to affect it-- if you want to affect a decision, 481 00:23:20,290 --> 00:23:21,790 you'd like to make sure that there's 482 00:23:21,790 --> 00:23:26,725 somebody in the room on your side when the decision is made. 483 00:23:26,725 --> 00:23:29,350 You don't just-- and this is how you deal with Congress, right? 484 00:23:29,350 --> 00:23:31,870 You don't just make a great proposal to Congress. 485 00:23:31,870 --> 00:23:33,303 You go talk to people. 486 00:23:33,303 --> 00:23:35,470 You go talk to people on the committee, and you say, 487 00:23:35,470 --> 00:23:37,950 here's why this is important. 488 00:23:37,950 --> 00:23:40,710 OK, fluid participation. 489 00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:43,200 Who makes the decision varies. 490 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,890 Problematic preferences. 491 00:23:45,890 --> 00:23:49,760 We know CRSP is not consistent over time. 492 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:50,840 We know it from the case. 493 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,438 We know it from life. 494 00:23:53,438 --> 00:23:54,730 The case illustrates it nicely. 495 00:23:54,730 --> 00:23:57,640 Can't find you space, it's going to cost $160,000, boom, here 496 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:58,810 it is, we found it. 497 00:24:01,570 --> 00:24:02,750 A miracle. 498 00:24:02,750 --> 00:24:05,030 A miracle. 499 00:24:05,030 --> 00:24:07,340 The other thing, unclear technology. 500 00:24:07,340 --> 00:24:14,220 By "technology" they mean the decision-making process. 501 00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:19,230 And if you say to somebody, well, 502 00:24:19,230 --> 00:24:22,020 how come this project got approved 503 00:24:22,020 --> 00:24:27,150 and this project didn't, you will hear the argument 504 00:24:27,150 --> 00:24:31,000 that was made for or against. 505 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,930 That's not necessarily why. 506 00:24:33,930 --> 00:24:37,760 That's the argument that rationalizes the decision. 507 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,330 In any group like this, particularly when 508 00:24:41,330 --> 00:24:43,970 the objectives aren't clear-- 509 00:24:43,970 --> 00:24:46,310 x wants $20,000 to renovate the lab. 510 00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:49,220 Is that a good deal or a bad deal? 511 00:24:49,220 --> 00:24:54,100 Well, it's not like we're trying to maximize profit here. 512 00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:56,980 We're trying to-- who knows, MIT has a complicated set 513 00:24:56,980 --> 00:24:59,410 of objectives involving research and education. 514 00:24:59,410 --> 00:25:01,420 But almost everything that's proposed 515 00:25:01,420 --> 00:25:04,820 will contribute to research and education. 516 00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:07,300 So which ones can you fund? 517 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:12,145 Well, exactly how those choices get made is obscure. 518 00:25:12,145 --> 00:25:13,960 It has to be obscure. 519 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,030 If you ask the people to describe it, 520 00:25:16,030 --> 00:25:17,380 it would be obscure. 521 00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:19,270 That's a lot of people in a room dealing 522 00:25:19,270 --> 00:25:25,650 with a lot of information, again, not atypical. 523 00:25:25,650 --> 00:25:33,270 So when Daniel says, well it's politics, well, yeah, 524 00:25:33,270 --> 00:25:37,160 but that doesn't help you figure out what to do. 525 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,770 It's politics in the sense that there are people making 526 00:25:39,770 --> 00:25:42,120 a decision for other people. 527 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:45,200 So in a very broad sense, I use politics-- 528 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,540 at the start of the semester, it's politics. 529 00:25:47,540 --> 00:25:50,280 It's a collective decision. 530 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,190 But if you wanted to do a better job, 531 00:25:54,190 --> 00:25:56,560 you would want to do more than treat the administration 532 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,630 as a black box. 533 00:25:58,630 --> 00:26:00,880 And you would want to do more than say, well, what 534 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,460 goes on in here is politics. 535 00:26:03,460 --> 00:26:04,820 Yeah, OK, what kind of politics? 536 00:26:04,820 --> 00:26:05,320 Who? 537 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:06,370 Why? 538 00:26:06,370 --> 00:26:10,440 What interests are people serving? 539 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,637 So this is the background. 540 00:26:13,637 --> 00:26:15,720 I want to spend some time, and a good deal of time 541 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,935 if we can, on what happened, what happened and why? 542 00:26:19,935 --> 00:26:23,560 Why did it take so long? 543 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,190 Was this a bad project? 544 00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:27,780 Is this project inconsistent with the kinds 545 00:26:27,780 --> 00:26:29,250 of stuff MIT tries to do? 546 00:26:32,550 --> 00:26:34,690 You're shaking your head, David. 547 00:26:34,690 --> 00:26:36,280 Not inconsistent. 548 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,662 Good values. 549 00:26:37,662 --> 00:26:40,850 DAVID: [INAUDIBLE] President Hockfield at that point of time 550 00:26:40,850 --> 00:26:44,596 had stressed the MITEI initiative. 551 00:26:44,596 --> 00:26:46,220 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Yeah. 552 00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:49,855 And they have 50 faculty members, MITEI support. 553 00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:56,200 This I think is the key question. 554 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,680 How come 50 faculty members, MITEI support, 555 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,700 consistency with MIT values didn't move this thing 556 00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:10,250 off the dime for all that time? 557 00:27:10,250 --> 00:27:11,800 Andrew. 558 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,215 ANDREW: Because everybody's not responsible for actually 559 00:27:16,215 --> 00:27:17,590 making the decisions. 560 00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:20,010 Ultimately they first saw the [INAUDIBLE] concern. 561 00:27:20,010 --> 00:27:20,525 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: OK. 562 00:27:20,525 --> 00:27:22,192 ANDREW: It falls to their responsibility 563 00:27:22,192 --> 00:27:23,437 to change [INAUDIBLE]. 564 00:27:23,437 --> 00:27:25,270 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: So all those supporters 565 00:27:25,270 --> 00:27:27,830 didn't have the power to move it. 566 00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:29,200 Point. 567 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:29,700 Sam. 568 00:27:29,700 --> 00:27:32,150 SAM: I think just the biggest issue is the back end. 569 00:27:32,150 --> 00:27:33,630 What the group planned to do, it'd 570 00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:36,270 affect so many different operations. 571 00:27:36,270 --> 00:27:38,520 They would need to get the Dining Hall on their side, 572 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,410 Facilities to help them move the grease. 573 00:27:40,410 --> 00:27:42,900 They'd need to get the OK from Facilities to actually use 574 00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:45,125 the biodiesel in their vehicles. 575 00:27:45,125 --> 00:27:47,250 They need to get the space from the administration. 576 00:27:47,250 --> 00:27:49,780 So it just encompasses so many different areas. 577 00:27:49,780 --> 00:27:51,960 And that's like five or six different 578 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,840 like sub-bureaucracies you have to deal with. 579 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,173 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: But you didn't hear the Dining Hall 580 00:27:56,173 --> 00:27:57,030 objecting. 581 00:27:57,030 --> 00:27:59,520 The main objection-- the main objection 582 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,390 was between Facilities, and Environmental Health 583 00:28:03,390 --> 00:28:04,785 and Safety, and space. 584 00:28:04,785 --> 00:28:06,490 SAM: Well, they did have most at stake. 585 00:28:06,490 --> 00:28:08,490 All the Dining had to do is say, OK, we'll leave 586 00:28:08,490 --> 00:28:09,757 our grease on this back porch. 587 00:28:09,757 --> 00:28:11,340 And Facilities, they had to be the one 588 00:28:11,340 --> 00:28:13,970 to move it, bring it over to wherever the space was, 589 00:28:13,970 --> 00:28:15,720 pick up the finished biodiesel, figure out 590 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,990 how they're actually going to put it in the shuttle. 591 00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:19,490 I mean, it's the most work for them. 592 00:28:19,490 --> 00:28:21,865 So that explains why they were most hesitant. 593 00:28:21,865 --> 00:28:23,490 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Well, explain why, 594 00:28:23,490 --> 00:28:27,180 because this is consistent with MIT values thing, 595 00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:29,070 and it's a good MIT thing. 596 00:28:29,070 --> 00:28:31,200 And the students probably would have 597 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,190 volunteered to handle the legwork of moving it. 598 00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:37,200 I don't think we're talking that much bulk. 599 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,790 Blending it is going to be an issue. 600 00:28:39,790 --> 00:28:41,040 But blending is blending. 601 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,430 You could probably do it simply enough. 602 00:28:44,430 --> 00:28:47,580 But then you notice all of a sudden [SNAP OF FINGERS] 603 00:28:47,580 --> 00:28:48,722 it happened. 604 00:28:48,722 --> 00:28:51,180 All of a sudden they got the space, the reactor was bought, 605 00:28:51,180 --> 00:28:53,020 and they were moving forward. 606 00:28:53,020 --> 00:28:58,110 So what you're saying was Facilities resisted. 607 00:28:58,110 --> 00:28:59,340 Why? 608 00:28:59,340 --> 00:29:01,235 What was it to Facilities-- 609 00:29:01,235 --> 00:29:01,860 well, go ahead. 610 00:29:01,860 --> 00:29:05,310 SAM: I mean like in Facilities [INAUDIBLE] was like changing 611 00:29:05,310 --> 00:29:07,555 people's responsibilities, which I think people, 612 00:29:07,555 --> 00:29:09,180 like it you've been a role for a while, 613 00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:10,890 and you're comfortable with that job, somebody says, oh, 614 00:29:10,890 --> 00:29:13,432 we're going to have to implement this completely new system , 615 00:29:13,432 --> 00:29:14,380 we're going to balk. 616 00:29:14,380 --> 00:29:16,440 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: OK. 617 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,160 So for Facilities they added to their day job. 618 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:20,720 Christopher. 619 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,510 CHRISTOPHER: I mean, I think you have to define support, too. 620 00:29:24,510 --> 00:29:27,130 I think any faculty member would be willing to say, hey, 621 00:29:27,130 --> 00:29:28,490 that's a great idea. 622 00:29:28,490 --> 00:29:30,360 But is it worth it to them to actually go 623 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,010 out and do something about it? 624 00:29:32,010 --> 00:29:33,855 Like for Facilities, to get their support, 625 00:29:33,855 --> 00:29:36,005 it has to be worth their time and their money. 626 00:29:36,005 --> 00:29:37,380 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: So there has 627 00:29:37,380 --> 00:29:40,620 to be something in it for them because they have the ability 628 00:29:40,620 --> 00:29:41,700 to block, don't they? 629 00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:42,450 CHRISTOPHER: Yeah. 630 00:29:42,450 --> 00:29:44,970 Like if there was a Professor that had a research interest 631 00:29:44,970 --> 00:29:46,345 and vested in this, then he might 632 00:29:46,345 --> 00:29:48,847 be more willing to try and find some space or vouch for them 633 00:29:48,847 --> 00:29:50,610 with CRSP or something like that. 634 00:29:50,610 --> 00:29:57,580 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Well that actually comes to the next one. 635 00:29:57,580 --> 00:29:58,860 What kind of entity is this? 636 00:29:58,860 --> 00:30:01,680 It wasn't a professor's lab, was it? 637 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,160 It wasn't a live-in group, it wasn't an administrative unit, 638 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,260 it wasn't a department. 639 00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:10,442 What kind of creature was it? 640 00:30:10,442 --> 00:30:11,775 You had your hand up, Alexandra. 641 00:30:11,775 --> 00:30:13,817 ALEXANDRA: Oh, I was going-- can I say something? 642 00:30:13,817 --> 00:30:16,038 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Yeah, of course. 643 00:30:16,038 --> 00:30:17,758 ALEXANDRA: So-- wait. 644 00:30:17,758 --> 00:30:19,192 [INAUDIBLE] 645 00:30:19,192 --> 00:30:21,050 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Hold that thought. 646 00:30:21,050 --> 00:30:21,920 I'll go with Julian. 647 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,620 I'm sorry. 648 00:30:23,620 --> 00:30:25,818 JULIAN: It's a student organization, right? 649 00:30:25,818 --> 00:30:27,860 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: It's a student organization. 650 00:30:27,860 --> 00:30:30,380 But most student organizations don't 651 00:30:30,380 --> 00:30:32,480 handle potentially flammable equipment 652 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,240 that could do various kinds of damage, 653 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,190 don't take up-- don't need to interact-- 654 00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:43,550 it's a student organization, but it's kind of different. 655 00:30:43,550 --> 00:30:46,490 JULIAN: It is a different student organization. 656 00:30:46,490 --> 00:30:49,250 So because of that, you have to take 657 00:30:49,250 --> 00:30:51,273 into account like practicality, where 658 00:30:51,273 --> 00:30:52,440 are they going to get space? 659 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:53,570 It's not like they think they're going 660 00:30:53,570 --> 00:30:55,040 to Walker Memorial and whatnot. 661 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,590 Also, most student organizations don't actually 662 00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:59,700 have a space of their own. 663 00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:02,128 So it's kind of a zero sum game. 664 00:31:02,128 --> 00:31:03,670 Everyone's fighting over equal space. 665 00:31:03,670 --> 00:31:04,753 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Yeah. 666 00:31:04,753 --> 00:31:08,750 JULIAN: And not everyone is moving out of your space. 667 00:31:08,750 --> 00:31:12,170 And, of course, MIT-- 668 00:31:12,170 --> 00:31:15,330 it's highly sought over to have space at MIT. 669 00:31:15,330 --> 00:31:17,480 So, I mean, realistically they're 670 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,162 not going to be able to move in until someone else moves out. 671 00:31:20,162 --> 00:31:21,620 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Or unless CRSP 672 00:31:21,620 --> 00:31:24,740 decides they're very important because faculty members expand 673 00:31:24,740 --> 00:31:26,210 their labs all the time. 674 00:31:26,210 --> 00:31:28,080 And space is zero sum. 675 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:28,780 Logan. 676 00:31:28,780 --> 00:31:31,480 LOGAN: I would say that a lot of the difficulty 677 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,610 stems from the fact that it's spanned 678 00:31:33,610 --> 00:31:36,700 across a lot of different types of organizations. 679 00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:40,240 And there are [INAUDIBLE] is everyone listed up there, 680 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,870 including some others, like transportation and stuff 681 00:31:43,870 --> 00:31:44,740 like that. 682 00:31:44,740 --> 00:31:46,820 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Alexandra, good to go? 683 00:31:46,820 --> 00:31:47,320 OK. 684 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,737 ALEXANDRA: What I was going to say 685 00:31:48,737 --> 00:31:50,400 is like, the fact that, as he said, 686 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,750 spans across so many different departments, as well as 687 00:31:52,750 --> 00:31:55,300 a lot of those departments, their goal 688 00:31:55,300 --> 00:31:59,090 is not necessarily to make biodiesel work. 689 00:31:59,090 --> 00:32:03,380 So maybe it works with MIT's general idea, 690 00:32:03,380 --> 00:32:06,470 but Facilities wants to maintain buildings. 691 00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:11,450 So add-- the MIT@Biodiesel group probably 692 00:32:11,450 --> 00:32:13,160 adds to their responsibilities. 693 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,150 And also now the space group has to talk about this. 694 00:32:16,150 --> 00:32:18,150 And maybe they don't actually want to spend time 695 00:32:18,150 --> 00:32:20,210 if like no one really cares. 696 00:32:20,210 --> 00:32:25,095 So probably it seems to me what happened was maybe the student 697 00:32:25,095 --> 00:32:26,720 group wasn't pushing hard enough for it 698 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,790 or didn't know how you go about talking to people. 699 00:32:29,790 --> 00:32:32,450 And then they quit, and then everyone else 700 00:32:32,450 --> 00:32:34,100 was like, oh my gosh, don't quit! 701 00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:34,690 And then-- 702 00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:36,230 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: But we're going 703 00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:37,772 to come to that because that's a very 704 00:32:37,772 --> 00:32:40,110 important part of the story. 705 00:32:40,110 --> 00:32:42,095 I don't know who was first here, Ryan? 706 00:32:42,095 --> 00:32:43,220 We'll get all three of you. 707 00:32:43,220 --> 00:32:44,510 RYAN: I was the last one. 708 00:32:44,510 --> 00:32:45,430 But-- 709 00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:47,222 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Well, that's not fair. 710 00:32:47,222 --> 00:32:47,950 Erica. 711 00:32:47,950 --> 00:32:48,780 No, go ahead. 712 00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:50,238 RYAN: Well, I was just going to say 713 00:32:50,238 --> 00:32:52,700 that I think that part of the problem was that MIT 714 00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:55,160 and many other places just made the bureaucracy 715 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,210 too complicated. 716 00:32:56,210 --> 00:32:58,820 Instead of actually deciding on to do anything, 717 00:32:58,820 --> 00:33:01,220 they usually have a meeting to decide a committee 718 00:33:01,220 --> 00:33:02,600 to decide something. 719 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:07,207 So I would say that the reason it didn't get through 720 00:33:07,207 --> 00:33:09,290 was partially their fault because they didn't know 721 00:33:09,290 --> 00:33:11,312 who to go to, but it's also partially the fault 722 00:33:11,312 --> 00:33:13,520 that bureaucracy has evolved into this monster that's 723 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:14,585 hard to get through. 724 00:33:14,585 --> 00:33:17,270 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Well-- but to be fair, 725 00:33:17,270 --> 00:33:19,880 this is not some kind of terrible thing. 726 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,240 And it's not, compared to other universities, particularly 727 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,740 bureaucratic. 728 00:33:24,740 --> 00:33:27,120 It's that if you want to run a place this complicated, 729 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,780 you have to have a hierarchy, and a division of authority, 730 00:33:29,780 --> 00:33:31,040 and a set of rules. 731 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,140 Everybody's got a Facilities department. 732 00:33:33,140 --> 00:33:36,500 Everybody's got Environmental Health and Safety. 733 00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:39,720 Everybody has to have a process for assigning space. 734 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,600 So those three entities have to exist in some form. 735 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,670 So I wouldn't say MIT's an example 736 00:33:46,670 --> 00:33:48,050 of out-of-control bureaucracy. 737 00:33:48,050 --> 00:33:49,850 It seems like that occasionally when 738 00:33:49,850 --> 00:33:51,260 I try to get something done. 739 00:33:51,260 --> 00:33:55,250 But looked at objectively, I don't think-- 740 00:33:55,250 --> 00:33:58,812 it's really good at doing, it's not good at changing. 741 00:33:58,812 --> 00:34:00,020 That's the way all these are. 742 00:34:00,020 --> 00:34:00,735 Steven. 743 00:34:00,735 --> 00:34:03,027 STEVEN: Well, the first thing I was going to comment on 744 00:34:03,027 --> 00:34:06,170 was that when you say that the faculty support and values 745 00:34:06,170 --> 00:34:08,719 weren't sufficient, it's not that they weren't sufficient, 746 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,909 it's that it's easy to gain support 747 00:34:10,909 --> 00:34:13,400 from people and bodies that don't necessarily 748 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,370 have to make the sacrifices in order to implement 749 00:34:16,370 --> 00:34:17,420 those types of changes. 750 00:34:17,420 --> 00:34:20,449 So that way with the Facilities and the Health and Safety 751 00:34:20,449 --> 00:34:22,460 groups, they actually have to sacrifice 752 00:34:22,460 --> 00:34:25,400 other groups and other possible issues 753 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,469 in order to take care of this initiative. 754 00:34:27,469 --> 00:34:30,320 And also the fact about space, I don't know a lot about CRSP, 755 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,449 but I know with certain other organizations 756 00:34:32,449 --> 00:34:34,730 when they're assigning spaces, they'll 757 00:34:34,730 --> 00:34:37,370 do it at a specific point once every year, 758 00:34:37,370 --> 00:34:40,130 that way they review all the different allocations 759 00:34:40,130 --> 00:34:42,980 of spacing, whether it be rooms in the Student Center 760 00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:45,860 or other places on campus and say, all right, 761 00:34:45,860 --> 00:34:47,600 you can use this space, or this group 762 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,127 is getting this space now. 763 00:34:49,127 --> 00:34:50,960 So I'm not sure if maybe CRSP, for instance, 764 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,927 says like at the beginning of the, 765 00:34:52,927 --> 00:34:54,469 year they can re-assign different lab 766 00:34:54,469 --> 00:34:58,080 spaces, different locations for other groups as well. 767 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,100 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: No, they operate more flexibly 768 00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:02,610 than that. 769 00:35:02,610 --> 00:35:06,080 Renovations-- that renovations committee met every two weeks, 770 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,698 and the body itself met monthly. 771 00:35:08,698 --> 00:35:10,490 So if you're going to put in a big request, 772 00:35:10,490 --> 00:35:12,922 like we want to build this building, 773 00:35:12,922 --> 00:35:14,630 it may go through CRSP, but it ultimately 774 00:35:14,630 --> 00:35:16,940 goes to the president. 775 00:35:16,940 --> 00:35:18,740 But for medium-sized things, they 776 00:35:18,740 --> 00:35:20,750 get decided on a pretty regular cycle 777 00:35:20,750 --> 00:35:22,910 because you don't want to wait a year. 778 00:35:22,910 --> 00:35:24,035 You have a big-- 779 00:35:24,035 --> 00:35:26,180 you've got a big grant, it requires 780 00:35:26,180 --> 00:35:27,647 you to install some equipment, you 781 00:35:27,647 --> 00:35:29,480 don't want to sit around and wait for a year 782 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,010 to get the project going. 783 00:35:31,010 --> 00:35:33,290 So it operates pretty regularly. 784 00:35:33,290 --> 00:35:33,830 Erica. 785 00:35:33,830 --> 00:35:35,038 You were probably first, huh? 786 00:35:35,038 --> 00:35:36,110 STEVEN: Yeah. 787 00:35:36,110 --> 00:35:40,510 ERICA: I think there's a lot of, like, instability, 788 00:35:40,510 --> 00:35:43,840 I guess in the process or uncertainty because I think 789 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,660 when they first got the GE Eco-imagination grant, 790 00:35:46,660 --> 00:35:50,143 and they are thinking, oh, it's going to take $35,000 I think 791 00:35:50,143 --> 00:35:50,810 was the number-- 792 00:35:50,810 --> 00:35:52,518 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Something like that. 793 00:35:52,518 --> 00:35:55,580 ERICA: --and it ballooned up to $137,000 and came back down 794 00:35:55,580 --> 00:35:56,080 to like-- 795 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:57,470 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Came back down. 796 00:35:57,470 --> 00:35:58,345 Isn't that a miracle? 797 00:35:58,345 --> 00:35:59,045 Yeah. 798 00:35:59,045 --> 00:36:02,780 ERICA: But all the costs that piled up, 799 00:36:02,780 --> 00:36:06,650 this was not only like, oh, it's a big cost. 800 00:36:06,650 --> 00:36:08,210 Now it's also an indication that they 801 00:36:08,210 --> 00:36:10,950 didn't realize how far things were going to go. 802 00:36:10,950 --> 00:36:14,940 And so when you think, OK, it's not even what, 35,000, 803 00:36:14,940 --> 00:36:16,740 and they think they know what we're doing, 804 00:36:16,740 --> 00:36:18,570 and then all these other things start piling up-- 805 00:36:18,570 --> 00:36:20,528 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Then they get overwhelmed. 806 00:36:20,528 --> 00:36:22,650 ERICA: Yeah, overwhelming, and it's harder 807 00:36:22,650 --> 00:36:25,075 to support when you don't know what the [INAUDIBLE] is. 808 00:36:25,075 --> 00:36:26,450 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: That's true. 809 00:36:26,450 --> 00:36:27,060 That's true. 810 00:36:27,060 --> 00:36:29,150 It's hard-- they had faculty support, which 811 00:36:29,150 --> 00:36:30,650 a number of people have pointed out, 812 00:36:30,650 --> 00:36:36,050 is really pretty cheap and fairly useless for many things. 813 00:36:36,050 --> 00:36:38,570 But for this one, where you had to deal with the staff, 814 00:36:38,570 --> 00:36:39,230 quite useless. 815 00:36:39,230 --> 00:36:39,730 David. 816 00:36:42,554 --> 00:36:44,160 DAVID: I was just going to say I think 817 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,700 it's important to realize that the people who are in charge 818 00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:50,190 of these communities are gatekeepers, not necessarily 819 00:36:50,190 --> 00:36:52,060 stakeholders in the project. 820 00:36:52,060 --> 00:36:54,510 So for them to say no to something 821 00:36:54,510 --> 00:36:56,760 is to minimize their risk because if something doesn't 822 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,980 go forward, they're really not on the line for it 823 00:36:58,980 --> 00:37:02,352 unless there's public attention drawn to their decision, which 824 00:37:02,352 --> 00:37:03,060 is what happened. 825 00:37:03,060 --> 00:37:05,820 And then they had a choice to make. 826 00:37:05,820 --> 00:37:08,518 There was we do it and we deal with the consequences, 827 00:37:08,518 --> 00:37:10,560 or we don't do it and deal with the consequences, 828 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,600 as opposed to doing it and possibly 829 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,090 dealing with a fire, or explosion, or something 830 00:37:15,090 --> 00:37:17,220 expensive down the line, or not doing it 831 00:37:17,220 --> 00:37:20,280 and then it fizzles out and dies and no one knows about it. 832 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,590 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Well, I want to come back to that. 833 00:37:23,590 --> 00:37:25,500 I just do want to make the point here 834 00:37:25,500 --> 00:37:28,530 that we've danced around, which is this group doesn't quite 835 00:37:28,530 --> 00:37:29,920 fit. 836 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,840 You could look at policies and procedures, 837 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,610 and it talks about labs, and it talks 838 00:37:33,610 --> 00:37:35,920 about the departments, and administrative, units 839 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,000 and living groups. 840 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,670 And it even might talk about student organizations, 841 00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:44,200 but not in a way that deals with this kind of operation. 842 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,520 This is a production operation run by students. 843 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,490 You can look through the rules and the precedents, 844 00:37:51,490 --> 00:37:54,190 and you don't find any of those. 845 00:37:54,190 --> 00:37:57,700 So you're giving the administrative apparatus 846 00:37:57,700 --> 00:37:59,320 with its rules, and its hierarchies, 847 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,170 and its defined responsibilities, 848 00:38:02,170 --> 00:38:04,060 and you're giving it a new kind of creature. 849 00:38:04,060 --> 00:38:05,336 David. 850 00:38:05,336 --> 00:38:08,740 DAVID: There are lots of student groups that do have hard 851 00:38:08,740 --> 00:38:11,140 allocated spaces in [INAUDIBLE]---- 852 00:38:11,140 --> 00:38:13,767 there's the [INAUDIBLE] City team and [INAUDIBLE] team 853 00:38:13,767 --> 00:38:14,600 and stuff like that. 854 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,240 And you do power allocated space with like dangerous machines 855 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:20,490 and stuff where there is risk. 856 00:38:20,490 --> 00:38:22,615 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Some of those have been around 857 00:38:22,615 --> 00:38:23,880 for a long time, of course. 858 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:24,810 This was a new one. 859 00:38:24,810 --> 00:38:26,700 DAVID: So maybe it took them five years 860 00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:28,603 to get space or 20 years. 861 00:38:28,603 --> 00:38:31,020 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: I also think the Environmental Health 862 00:38:31,020 --> 00:38:35,812 and Safety stuff has gotten much more focused in recent years. 863 00:38:35,812 --> 00:38:37,770 I think we've all gotten much more risk averse. 864 00:38:37,770 --> 00:38:39,118 If you look at something like-- 865 00:38:39,118 --> 00:38:40,410 well, I don't know which shops. 866 00:38:40,410 --> 00:38:43,140 I know the ones that used to be when I was here as a student, 867 00:38:43,140 --> 00:38:46,310 they'd been around for 50 years when, hey, go ahead 868 00:38:46,310 --> 00:38:47,310 play with a drill press. 869 00:38:47,310 --> 00:38:48,920 Who cares? 870 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,795 So it may just be that there's more scrutiny. 871 00:38:51,795 --> 00:38:53,637 DAVID: There's some sort of precedent 872 00:38:53,637 --> 00:38:56,022 that these groups use. 873 00:38:56,022 --> 00:38:57,430 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: There is. 874 00:38:57,430 --> 00:38:58,360 There is. 875 00:38:58,360 --> 00:38:59,950 I take your point. 876 00:38:59,950 --> 00:39:04,360 But boy, they acted like this was neither fish nor fowl. 877 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:04,860 Charlotte. 878 00:39:04,860 --> 00:39:06,040 CHARLOTTE: I was going to say, I guess, 879 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,080 I think that that's the answer right there, 880 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,515 that just in today's world, things take longer. 881 00:39:10,515 --> 00:39:12,640 I mean, I think it's more impressive that a student 882 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,730 group was able to successfully carry out this project, 883 00:39:15,730 --> 00:39:18,280 and get approval, and get a space within two years. 884 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,200 And then now, six years later, we're 885 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:21,795 actually producing the product. 886 00:39:21,795 --> 00:39:23,170 I think that's really impressive. 887 00:39:23,170 --> 00:39:25,360 And I know that two years seems like a long time 888 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,462 to a college student, but in the real world, 889 00:39:27,462 --> 00:39:29,170 wouldn't a project like this take longer? 890 00:39:29,170 --> 00:39:31,253 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: It would depend, wouldn't it? 891 00:39:31,253 --> 00:39:34,810 I mean, it went real fast once it cleared. 892 00:39:34,810 --> 00:39:37,450 So I think part of what we've been saying, 893 00:39:37,450 --> 00:39:41,740 and a lot of people have said it, was none of the key players 894 00:39:41,740 --> 00:39:44,800 had a positive incentive to take this project forward. 895 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,780 It was more work for Facilities, it 896 00:39:46,780 --> 00:39:49,700 was more risk for Environmental Health and Safety, 897 00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:54,670 it was space from other uses for CRSP. 898 00:39:54,670 --> 00:39:56,200 So, Arianna. 899 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,310 ARIANNA: I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. 900 00:39:58,310 --> 00:40:01,360 I think there is some kind of incentive 901 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,210 as part of [INAUDIBLE] the overall organization 902 00:40:04,210 --> 00:40:07,810 if this is accomplished, then it kind of looks good on everyone. 903 00:40:07,810 --> 00:40:10,535 But because those-- it's a collective action problem. 904 00:40:10,535 --> 00:40:12,160 If not everyone's pulling their weight, 905 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,920 and because it's taking all these different groups 906 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,860 to pull it off, if someone's lagging, 907 00:40:17,860 --> 00:40:19,780 it's a waste of everyone else's time. 908 00:40:19,780 --> 00:40:22,510 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: But if I'm the Facilities guy, 909 00:40:22,510 --> 00:40:26,950 the fact that MIT gets good press doesn't affect my job 910 00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:29,440 performance rating, doesn't affect my day-- 911 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,780 how well I do my day job, which is what I'm judged on. 912 00:40:31,780 --> 00:40:34,120 I'm not judged on MIT's press, I'm not 913 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,655 judged on MIT's education, I'm judged on, 914 00:40:37,655 --> 00:40:40,970 does the mail get delivered, does the landscape look good? 915 00:40:40,970 --> 00:40:42,860 And if I'm Environmental Health and Safety, 916 00:40:42,860 --> 00:40:45,610 I'm judged on accidents. 917 00:40:45,610 --> 00:40:46,630 Are there risks? 918 00:40:46,630 --> 00:40:48,790 Do we comply? 919 00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:50,710 This is not an opportunity for me. 920 00:40:50,710 --> 00:40:51,910 This is a challenge for me. 921 00:40:51,910 --> 00:40:55,510 CRSP is more complicated because of its diverse representation. 922 00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:59,440 But Facilities and Environmental Health and Safety, 923 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,480 this is not an opportunity, this is a challenge. 924 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,000 For MIT as a whole, that's a different game. 925 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,795 ARIANNA: I think there's some trickle down of smiling faces. 926 00:41:07,795 --> 00:41:09,670 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: But the whole point here 927 00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:13,840 is not much, in a large complicated organization, 928 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:14,525 not much. 929 00:41:14,525 --> 00:41:15,025 Erica. 930 00:41:15,025 --> 00:41:19,000 ERICA: Well, in this situation, having 931 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,360 MIT look better as a whole would just affect the Facilities' 932 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,880 and EH&S's jobs. 933 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,652 So they needed to be required to implement the [INAUDIBLE] pass 934 00:41:27,652 --> 00:41:28,715 as part of their job. 935 00:41:28,715 --> 00:41:30,880 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: They could be required to. 936 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,880 And in fact, that's probably what happened. 937 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,020 But when the process is coming up through them, 938 00:41:39,020 --> 00:41:40,370 there's nobody requiring them. 939 00:41:40,370 --> 00:41:41,200 Sarah. 940 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,060 SARAH: It raises a question as to the direction 941 00:41:44,060 --> 00:41:45,728 of the rules in the hierarchy because it 942 00:41:45,728 --> 00:41:48,020 seems like all of the rules we've talked about thus far 943 00:41:48,020 --> 00:41:49,940 are about proceeding up the hierarchy. 944 00:41:49,940 --> 00:41:52,878 But there aren't checks and rules for going down. 945 00:41:52,878 --> 00:41:55,420 So if you brought something like this to President Hockfield, 946 00:41:55,420 --> 00:41:57,800 she would have the incentive to move forward with it 947 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,650 and force those incentives on the people below her. 948 00:42:00,650 --> 00:42:04,245 But it's not able to move on the other direction. 949 00:42:04,245 --> 00:42:08,000 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: That's the nature of organizations, right? 950 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,060 You go back to Hexion, all these folks concerned 951 00:42:11,060 --> 00:42:14,342 about their bonuses with there might be an outage, 952 00:42:14,342 --> 00:42:15,800 and it might affect my bonus, and I 953 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,615 can't go to Hawaii this year, it may 954 00:42:18,615 --> 00:42:20,660 be a great thing for the CEO. 955 00:42:20,660 --> 00:42:23,300 If you can get it on the CEO-- the CEO might say, oh, come on, 956 00:42:23,300 --> 00:42:26,570 we want to be leaders, we want to get great press, 957 00:42:26,570 --> 00:42:29,070 and the savings are nice. 958 00:42:29,070 --> 00:42:30,650 So for the organization as a whole, 959 00:42:30,650 --> 00:42:35,040 if not necessarily for you and your bonus, we should do this. 960 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,220 But if it doesn't get on that person's desk, 961 00:42:37,220 --> 00:42:39,770 it doesn't go down the hierarchy. 962 00:42:39,770 --> 00:42:41,150 It doesn't go down. 963 00:42:41,150 --> 00:42:42,110 Andrew. 964 00:42:42,110 --> 00:42:44,386 ANDREW: I assume [INAUDIBLE] some points. 965 00:42:44,386 --> 00:42:46,020 Somebody brought up one of the points 966 00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:48,150 that despite-- because if we talk 967 00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:50,820 a little about the administrations 968 00:42:50,820 --> 00:42:53,695 and how they interact with each other. 969 00:42:53,695 --> 00:42:56,100 But I think that we shouldn't underestimate 970 00:42:56,100 --> 00:43:00,080 the importance of the individual people who 971 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,520 are in that administration. 972 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,730 Like if it happens to be that that went to the registrar's 973 00:43:05,730 --> 00:43:09,240 office and one day spoke to person A about the same issue, 974 00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:11,000 and then the next day spoke to person B, 975 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,375 and they should discover results, 976 00:43:12,375 --> 00:43:15,130 simply because they spoke to the right person. 977 00:43:15,130 --> 00:43:18,120 "Right" might be his position, it might be his mood that day. 978 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,730 It might be the [INAUDIBLE] who he conferred me to. 979 00:43:20,730 --> 00:43:23,026 So I think that-- 980 00:43:23,026 --> 00:43:27,075 I mean, some of you [INAUDIBLE] previously that it's not always 981 00:43:27,075 --> 00:43:28,200 the administration, per se. 982 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,080 It's the actual people inside and not dealing 983 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:31,960 with a black box. 984 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,440 And then if you make it his personal goal or something 985 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:37,490 to make sense-- 986 00:43:37,490 --> 00:43:38,510 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Well, the registrar 987 00:43:38,510 --> 00:43:40,510 is a good example because the registrar's office 988 00:43:40,510 --> 00:43:42,860 is student-facing importantly. 989 00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:45,080 Facilities is sort of building-facing. 990 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,020 Registrar's office is supposed to solve problems for students. 991 00:43:49,020 --> 00:43:51,980 So part of it's temperament and ability. 992 00:43:51,980 --> 00:43:55,380 But if you get somebody good, that's their job. 993 00:43:55,380 --> 00:43:57,695 It's not the job of the person in Facilities. 994 00:43:57,695 --> 00:43:58,195 [INAUDIBLE] 995 00:43:58,195 --> 00:43:59,495 AUDIENCE: I know there are [INAUDIBLE] differences. 996 00:43:59,495 --> 00:44:00,920 But you can also argue-- 997 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,790 I mean, you got to juxtapose this against, say, maybe MITx, 998 00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:08,810 that you may not be dealing with Health and Services 999 00:44:08,810 --> 00:44:10,650 and Facilities, but you're dealing 1000 00:44:10,650 --> 00:44:12,650 with other organizations and so on and so forth. 1001 00:44:12,650 --> 00:44:14,192 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: That have terms. 1002 00:44:14,192 --> 00:44:17,620 AUDIENCE: And that went from idea to ground in less than two 1003 00:44:17,620 --> 00:44:19,010 or three months that we know of. 1004 00:44:19,010 --> 00:44:22,280 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: And it had support from the top. 1005 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,400 And the Energy Initiative got launched with support 1006 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:26,160 from the top. 1007 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:26,660 Casey. 1008 00:44:26,660 --> 00:44:30,540 CASEY: So this biodiesel effort was a solution. 1009 00:44:30,540 --> 00:44:32,780 So maybe part of the problem was that there 1010 00:44:32,780 --> 00:44:35,580 wasn't a saline problem that needed to be addressed 1011 00:44:35,580 --> 00:44:36,785 within the MIT community. 1012 00:44:36,785 --> 00:44:38,830 I mean, this group had an idea of what 1013 00:44:38,830 --> 00:44:40,690 it wanted to accomplish. 1014 00:44:40,690 --> 00:44:46,390 But maybe just the fact that the rest of the MIT community 1015 00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:50,560 wasn't so concerned about the fuel usage of transportation 1016 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,370 that the key players did not have this incentive 1017 00:44:53,370 --> 00:44:56,640 to address the problem because there wasn't this push. 1018 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:02,360 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: So, why'd it change so radically? 1019 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:02,860 Obina. 1020 00:45:02,860 --> 00:45:04,695 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] to a question. 1021 00:45:04,695 --> 00:45:07,320 Instead of an incentive, do you think there was a disincentive? 1022 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,470 Because they're doing the narrative played out. 1023 00:45:09,470 --> 00:45:11,970 Students had a great idea, they get a lot of press about it, 1024 00:45:11,970 --> 00:45:14,310 and then they run up against all these roadblocks within the MIT 1025 00:45:14,310 --> 00:45:14,685 administration. 1026 00:45:14,685 --> 00:45:16,350 So it's like, oh, this school project 1027 00:45:16,350 --> 00:45:18,320 was stalled by MIT itself. 1028 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:19,320 Oh, are they doing this? 1029 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:20,695 And so suddenly you start looking 1030 00:45:20,695 --> 00:45:24,540 bad in the eyes of whoever is reading this bad press. 1031 00:45:24,540 --> 00:45:28,440 And so maybe they were like, OK, maybe the guys 1032 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,470 up top intervened, like who's causing the-- 1033 00:45:31,470 --> 00:45:32,640 who's stalling? 1034 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,270 EHS, get your act together. 1035 00:45:34,270 --> 00:45:35,940 And then, I don't know, it accelerated. 1036 00:45:35,940 --> 00:45:37,315 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Put yourself 1037 00:45:37,315 --> 00:45:40,590 in President Hockfield's shoes and imagine 1038 00:45:40,590 --> 00:45:43,290 you're reading The Tech on May 13, 1039 00:45:43,290 --> 00:45:45,250 and you're reading the story. 1040 00:45:45,250 --> 00:45:50,280 And as Sara told it, that we've been trying all this time, 1041 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:55,510 here's what we're going to do, and it's gotten killed. 1042 00:45:55,510 --> 00:45:58,890 Suddenly you react from the point of view of MIT. 1043 00:45:58,890 --> 00:46:00,640 And you talk to the folks in CRSP, 1044 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,400 and you say, surely we can do this. 1045 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:04,990 Surely there has to be a way to do 1046 00:46:04,990 --> 00:46:08,020 something that has research, and education, and student 1047 00:46:08,020 --> 00:46:08,620 initiative. 1048 00:46:08,620 --> 00:46:12,060 And I gather the numbers are OK. 1049 00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:17,820 It becomes an opportunity, not a threat. 1050 00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:22,520 It's a threat to Facilities because it's more work. 1051 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,090 It's a threat to Environmental Health and Safety 1052 00:46:26,090 --> 00:46:30,470 because it's got risks, no doubt about it, that 1053 00:46:30,470 --> 00:46:33,770 Adds to their problems. 1054 00:46:33,770 --> 00:46:37,580 It's even a threat to CRSP because it's 1055 00:46:37,580 --> 00:46:41,330 competing for space, which is really valuable in which people 1056 00:46:41,330 --> 00:46:42,900 really want. 1057 00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:45,900 And here are these students-- 1058 00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:48,870 with all due respect, students-- 1059 00:46:48,870 --> 00:46:53,700 who want to take space from department heads, and deans, 1060 00:46:53,700 --> 00:46:57,190 and people like that. 1061 00:46:57,190 --> 00:47:02,090 So in a way, it's a problem for CRSP as well. 1062 00:47:02,090 --> 00:47:08,210 You're not going to control much that matters to them. 1063 00:47:08,210 --> 00:47:14,340 But for MIT as a whole, it's an opportunity. 1064 00:47:14,340 --> 00:47:16,850 It's an opportunity to talk about student initiative, 1065 00:47:16,850 --> 00:47:19,250 and environmental leadership, and lots 1066 00:47:19,250 --> 00:47:22,250 of great and wonderful-- learning by doing, hands on. 1067 00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:24,700 It's a great story. 1068 00:47:24,700 --> 00:47:27,350 It's not a great story for Facilities, 1069 00:47:27,350 --> 00:47:30,260 or Environmental Health and Safety, or CRSP. 1070 00:47:30,260 --> 00:47:32,840 But it's a great story for President Hockfield. 1071 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:33,980 I don't know what happened. 1072 00:47:33,980 --> 00:47:35,840 I don't know whether she called. 1073 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,020 I'd be kind of surprised if the president or provost hadn't 1074 00:47:39,020 --> 00:47:42,130 intervened on the basis of that article 1075 00:47:42,130 --> 00:47:45,610 because CRSP turned on a dime. 1076 00:47:45,610 --> 00:47:46,630 The case makes it clear. 1077 00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:50,140 They turned on a dime from very risk-- 1078 00:47:50,140 --> 00:47:52,870 and the environmental risks went down, 1079 00:47:52,870 --> 00:47:57,530 and the space was available, and the remodeling was cheaper-- 1080 00:47:57,530 --> 00:48:01,280 all of a sudden, all of a sudden. 1081 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:05,470 Somebody from the top did something. 1082 00:48:05,470 --> 00:48:08,150 What might they have done? 1083 00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:11,260 I would say when Sara first presented this experience 1084 00:48:11,260 --> 00:48:14,440 to this class two years ago, she said if we just tried harder, 1085 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,840 if we just kept after Facilities, if we just kept 1086 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,070 after the environmental people and talked to folks on CRSP, 1087 00:48:21,070 --> 00:48:22,240 was at the right play? 1088 00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:23,035 Yeah. 1089 00:48:23,035 --> 00:48:24,835 AUDIENCE: I think they should have realized 1090 00:48:24,835 --> 00:48:27,760 if it was in the committee, identify who they actually 1091 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,760 had to talk to because I think their biggest mistake was 1092 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,160 that they found their values-- 1093 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:34,660 they thought their values should be 1094 00:48:34,660 --> 00:48:36,700 consistent with the committee's values. 1095 00:48:36,700 --> 00:48:39,880 And it's almost incorrect to say that it's 1096 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,430 consistent with MIT's values because what we just 1097 00:48:42,430 --> 00:48:45,340 pointed out is that the undergrad-- that the student 1098 00:48:45,340 --> 00:48:48,700 body's values are very different to the administration's values. 1099 00:48:48,700 --> 00:48:52,280 Like Facilities might have their own objectives, 1100 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,890 Environmental Health and Planning might their own. 1101 00:48:54,890 --> 00:48:57,020 So in order for them to have been more effective, 1102 00:48:57,020 --> 00:48:58,630 I might have made sense if they knew 1103 00:48:58,630 --> 00:49:01,060 they weren't dealing with a student representative 1104 00:49:01,060 --> 00:49:04,750 or anyone in there who shared the values of being 1105 00:49:04,750 --> 00:49:06,790 environmentally friendly with the-- and perhaps 1106 00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:09,130 that they should have stressed on other points, 1107 00:49:09,130 --> 00:49:12,038 or had someone else [INAUDIBLE]. 1108 00:49:12,038 --> 00:49:14,080 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: I hadn't thought about this, 1109 00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:20,300 but the question comes up on CRSP, 1110 00:49:20,300 --> 00:49:22,940 there isn't anybody there, as you 1111 00:49:22,940 --> 00:49:29,980 look at them, who has a primary role in education. 1112 00:49:29,980 --> 00:49:32,680 Claude does research. 1113 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:37,760 But either-- this is the current makeup. 1114 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,530 So I'm not sure who was there then. 1115 00:49:41,530 --> 00:49:44,260 Phil Curry was a former dean, so you would talk to Phil. 1116 00:49:44,260 --> 00:49:46,990 Rafael, faculty member, you'd talk to him. 1117 00:49:46,990 --> 00:49:48,460 Grimson, faculty member. 1118 00:49:48,460 --> 00:49:51,160 Everybody else-- well, Claude is a faculty member, 1119 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,960 but he has research responsibilities. 1120 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:59,320 These are the three people on that committee who have 1121 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,080 very broad responsibilities. 1122 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,710 Everybody else is Department of Facilities, Department 1123 00:50:05,710 --> 00:50:08,900 of Facilities, Finance, Project Management, Planning 1124 00:50:08,900 --> 00:50:09,400 and Design. 1125 00:50:13,860 --> 00:50:16,600 In this case, you have to take it up the line. 1126 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:17,100 Charlotte. 1127 00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:19,045 CHARLOTTE: Well, it also seems that maybe they 1128 00:50:19,045 --> 00:50:21,780 could have tried taking it to the students initially, 1129 00:50:21,780 --> 00:50:22,800 like if they'd gotten-- 1130 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,258 because it seems like what happened 1131 00:50:24,258 --> 00:50:27,938 in the end was that because the student body cared so much, 1132 00:50:27,938 --> 00:50:28,980 other people took notice. 1133 00:50:28,980 --> 00:50:31,272 So maybe they should have gone about getting a petition 1134 00:50:31,272 --> 00:50:34,897 or having some sort of student body support from that end, 1135 00:50:34,897 --> 00:50:35,980 which isn't going offline. 1136 00:50:35,980 --> 00:50:36,813 I say that's going-- 1137 00:50:36,813 --> 00:50:38,070 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Right. 1138 00:50:38,070 --> 00:50:39,760 That's starting a social movement, 1139 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:45,760 so to speak, getting strong and noisy student support. 1140 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,550 Yeah, that's another way because, again, 1141 00:50:48,550 --> 00:50:51,940 the top administration will be sensitive to that, 1142 00:50:51,940 --> 00:50:53,420 will be sensitive to that. 1143 00:50:53,420 --> 00:50:55,696 [INAUDIBLE] 1144 00:50:55,696 --> 00:51:00,340 AUDIENCE: I feel like if they had gotten more support of what 1145 00:51:00,340 --> 00:51:05,890 this would solve, if they get support of maybe the transport 1146 00:51:05,890 --> 00:51:08,710 section, I'm pretty sure even though-- 1147 00:51:08,710 --> 00:51:10,223 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Transport guys, 1148 00:51:10,223 --> 00:51:11,890 it's actually a bit of a threat to them, 1149 00:51:11,890 --> 00:51:15,790 too, because the machinery runs fine, 1150 00:51:15,790 --> 00:51:18,130 and we're going to change the fuel, 1151 00:51:18,130 --> 00:51:20,410 and you're telling me it'll still run fine, 1152 00:51:20,410 --> 00:51:21,842 it'll be environmentally friendly. 1153 00:51:21,842 --> 00:51:23,800 But from the point of view of cutting the grass 1154 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,410 and running the shuttles, there's no upside, 1155 00:51:26,410 --> 00:51:28,043 there's only a downside. 1156 00:51:28,043 --> 00:51:29,960 From the point of view of running the shuttles 1157 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,400 and cutting the grass, yeah, it'll be good, we'll feel good, 1158 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,410 but I'm not judged by my emissions. 1159 00:51:36,410 --> 00:51:39,230 I'm judged by do the shuttles run on time. 1160 00:51:39,230 --> 00:51:40,820 So I'd worry about that. 1161 00:51:40,820 --> 00:51:43,880 AUDIENCE: Besides that, look at maybe Dining. 1162 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,040 If Dining sees this as an opportunity 1163 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,430 to be able to dispose of that oil in a-- 1164 00:51:48,430 --> 00:51:50,180 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: I think that's right. 1165 00:51:50,180 --> 00:51:51,555 AUDIENCE: --safer or cheaper way. 1166 00:51:51,555 --> 00:51:56,060 And even though there's no one here 1167 00:51:56,060 --> 00:51:59,990 who ensures that as a ten student group get some space, 1168 00:51:59,990 --> 00:52:01,850 there should be a community that can 1169 00:52:01,850 --> 00:52:03,650 support Dining if Dining presents 1170 00:52:03,650 --> 00:52:06,223 that as a need for them. 1171 00:52:06,223 --> 00:52:07,640 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: So they solve 1172 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,140 a problem for Dining of getting rid of all this used cooking 1173 00:52:10,140 --> 00:52:11,720 oil, and you want to stress that. 1174 00:52:11,720 --> 00:52:13,490 And you'd want to get-- 1175 00:52:13,490 --> 00:52:16,160 you'd want to get student activism 1176 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,120 of one kind or another. 1177 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,800 It sounds like this was a small group that worked very hard 1178 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,090 and burned out. 1179 00:52:23,090 --> 00:52:24,930 And that's not the way to do it. 1180 00:52:24,930 --> 00:52:25,430 Erica. 1181 00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:27,980 ERICA: Also I think if-- 1182 00:52:27,980 --> 00:52:30,600 I'm not sure how they pitched it, I guess, 1183 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:34,770 because obviously, there's the whole environmental "do good" 1184 00:52:34,770 --> 00:52:36,330 side. 1185 00:52:36,330 --> 00:52:40,230 But if you wanted to get the support of certain groups 1186 00:52:40,230 --> 00:52:43,850 on campus, like department Facilities or EHS, 1187 00:52:43,850 --> 00:52:47,000 you'd probably have to change what's-- 1188 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,790 prioritize what's important to them to make them want to join. 1189 00:52:50,790 --> 00:52:54,520 So we keep on saying how much work 1190 00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:55,770 they have to also put into it. 1191 00:52:55,770 --> 00:52:57,450 But if you found something, I guess, 1192 00:52:57,450 --> 00:53:00,900 another way to say, like, well, yes, you're putting more work, 1193 00:53:00,900 --> 00:53:05,295 but you see this aspect that's not only the do good side, 1194 00:53:05,295 --> 00:53:05,850 I guess. 1195 00:53:05,850 --> 00:53:09,090 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: I think facilities would be hard. 1196 00:53:09,090 --> 00:53:12,860 I don't know how you make this a winner for Facilities. 1197 00:53:12,860 --> 00:53:15,870 Marie, you're with us, right? 1198 00:53:15,870 --> 00:53:20,060 Any thoughts on how they could have been more effective? 1199 00:53:20,060 --> 00:53:23,020 MARIE: I mean, the main thing that I 1200 00:53:23,020 --> 00:53:24,880 can give you is the thing with Charlotte 1201 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,107 is if they had gotten the students involved earlier-- 1202 00:53:27,107 --> 00:53:28,690 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Broadly involved. 1203 00:53:28,690 --> 00:53:32,660 MARIE: Broadly involved across campus, maybe-- 1204 00:53:32,660 --> 00:53:35,900 I mean, instead of having faculty support where they 1205 00:53:35,900 --> 00:53:38,290 didn't really specify who the faculty were 1206 00:53:38,290 --> 00:53:42,130 and only faculty in small cases, if they had gotten a broader 1207 00:53:42,130 --> 00:53:44,820 support system that could really pushed it further out 1208 00:53:44,820 --> 00:53:46,080 it would have been helpful. 1209 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,510 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: It might have been interesting 1210 00:53:48,510 --> 00:53:50,550 just in terms of faculty support, 1211 00:53:50,550 --> 00:53:53,140 could you get somebody, for instance, 1212 00:53:53,140 --> 00:53:56,340 to put a petition in a faculty meeting 1213 00:53:56,340 --> 00:53:58,740 that the MIT faculty endorsed blah, blah, blah, as 1214 00:53:58,740 --> 00:54:01,746 opposed to we talked to a bunch of guys and they like it? 1215 00:54:01,746 --> 00:54:06,040 MARIE: [INAUDIBLE] just pretty broad and you have-- 1216 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,412 yeah, I guess the course that it covers in chemical engineering, 1217 00:54:09,412 --> 00:54:11,620 and they have the core six that was doing the website 1218 00:54:11,620 --> 00:54:15,120 and spanning a lot of different majors, 1219 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:16,870 and they could have gotten faculty support 1220 00:54:16,870 --> 00:54:18,480 in many different categories. 1221 00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:20,022 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: And even a Sloan 1222 00:54:20,022 --> 00:54:21,512 MBA running the spreadsheet, huh, 1223 00:54:21,512 --> 00:54:24,240 to do the cost effectiveness. 1224 00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:24,780 Max. 1225 00:54:24,780 --> 00:54:27,030 MAX: I think one of the big problems with this project 1226 00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:27,930 is that-- 1227 00:54:27,930 --> 00:54:29,580 that probably led to a lot of hesitancy 1228 00:54:29,580 --> 00:54:34,500 with CRSP was just putting that much trust in students 1229 00:54:34,500 --> 00:54:37,590 to deliver this product that MIT relies on or will hopefully 1230 00:54:37,590 --> 00:54:38,490 rely on. 1231 00:54:38,490 --> 00:54:41,460 And, I mean, student support, I think, 1232 00:54:41,460 --> 00:54:43,225 may have had some factor. 1233 00:54:43,225 --> 00:54:44,850 But I think students are pretty fickle. 1234 00:54:44,850 --> 00:54:47,530 And there's a big risk that if interest in this project 1235 00:54:47,530 --> 00:54:50,490 dies out in the future, how can we keep it going? 1236 00:54:50,490 --> 00:54:52,500 What's the contingency plan for supplying 1237 00:54:52,500 --> 00:54:54,537 the biodiesel, which maybe-- 1238 00:54:54,537 --> 00:54:55,620 I didn't read the formal-- 1239 00:54:55,620 --> 00:54:57,328 I don't think there was the formal report 1240 00:54:57,328 --> 00:54:58,120 for the proposal-- 1241 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,120 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: We didn't include it, yeah. 1242 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,820 MAX: --but if that had in it more of a contingency plan 1243 00:55:02,820 --> 00:55:04,930 to show that this is sustainable, 1244 00:55:04,930 --> 00:55:07,480 it's not just going to rely completely student support. 1245 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,300 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: If you go to the website-- again, 1246 00:55:09,300 --> 00:55:10,230 I assume it's still going. 1247 00:55:10,230 --> 00:55:11,647 But if you go to the website, it's 1248 00:55:11,647 --> 00:55:13,800 clear that all the excitement was 1249 00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,440 getting it out-- first of all, doing the study, 1250 00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,630 getting approval, getting it up and running, getting 1251 00:55:18,630 --> 00:55:21,960 the reactor actually to work, getting the fuel tested, 1252 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,600 dealing with a whole bunch of logistical issues, 1253 00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:26,370 and then it's a factory. 1254 00:55:26,370 --> 00:55:28,770 And then it's not so much-- then it's not so interesting. 1255 00:55:28,770 --> 00:55:29,580 Sam. 1256 00:55:29,580 --> 00:55:33,240 SAM: Like I think the size getting student support, 1257 00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:35,842 the other just really key thing to getting anything done 1258 00:55:35,842 --> 00:55:37,800 is that when you're dealing with a bureaucracy, 1259 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,180 you always need to work-- 1260 00:55:39,180 --> 00:55:42,270 you always want to work down the chain of command instead of up. 1261 00:55:42,270 --> 00:55:43,980 If from the beginning they had gone 1262 00:55:43,980 --> 00:55:46,560 to the provost, or the chancellor, 1263 00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,755 or even like President Hockfield said, look, 1264 00:55:48,755 --> 00:55:50,130 we have this really cool project. 1265 00:55:50,130 --> 00:55:50,922 It saves you money. 1266 00:55:50,922 --> 00:55:52,860 But more than that, it's a great-- 1267 00:55:52,860 --> 00:55:54,670 it fits with MIT's mission statement, 1268 00:55:54,670 --> 00:55:57,270 it's students taking initiative, it's hands-on learning. 1269 00:55:57,270 --> 00:55:59,190 And then you can get some of them to-- 1270 00:55:59,190 --> 00:56:00,970 like a high level person of influence 1271 00:56:00,970 --> 00:56:03,390 to support it from the beginning, then you kind of-- 1272 00:56:03,390 --> 00:56:04,473 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Boom. 1273 00:56:04,473 --> 00:56:05,180 Then it happens. 1274 00:56:05,180 --> 00:56:06,790 Then it happens in weeks. 1275 00:56:06,790 --> 00:56:07,290 Yes. 1276 00:56:07,290 --> 00:56:08,282 AUDIENCE: Well, I was pretty much was 1277 00:56:08,282 --> 00:56:09,936 going to say what Sam said. 1278 00:56:09,936 --> 00:56:11,450 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Well, you can just point to him. 1279 00:56:11,450 --> 00:56:14,063 AUDIENCE: Would it be entirely unreasonable to go and knock 1280 00:56:14,063 --> 00:56:15,440 on President Hockfield's door? 1281 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:16,720 Like her house is right here. 1282 00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:18,625 [STUDENTS LAUGH] 1283 00:56:19,125 --> 00:56:20,860 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Well, you have 1284 00:56:20,860 --> 00:56:24,340 to have some sense of just how insanely busy her life is. 1285 00:56:24,340 --> 00:56:26,260 And the answer is no. 1286 00:56:26,260 --> 00:56:28,750 And she's also-- one of her first quotes 1287 00:56:28,750 --> 00:56:31,240 on taking office was "I don't like surprises." 1288 00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:33,580 So no, you want to work through her office 1289 00:56:33,580 --> 00:56:35,140 to get on her calendar. 1290 00:56:35,140 --> 00:56:37,060 But that would not be unreasonable. 1291 00:56:37,060 --> 00:56:39,490 You could take a shot at it. 1292 00:56:39,490 --> 00:56:43,450 She probably would push you away. 1293 00:56:43,450 --> 00:56:45,880 I'm just thinking about operating style. 1294 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:47,380 She'd push you down. 1295 00:56:47,380 --> 00:56:49,330 But she wouldn't push you down to Facilities. 1296 00:56:49,330 --> 00:56:51,640 She'd push you maybe to the chancellor, 1297 00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:53,950 or maybe to the dean of engineering, 1298 00:56:53,950 --> 00:56:56,920 or somebody rather than Facilities. 1299 00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,350 So it'd be worth a shot. 1300 00:56:59,350 --> 00:57:03,050 I don't think you'd get in to see her right away. 1301 00:57:03,050 --> 00:57:05,930 But I think you could get higher up in the organization. 1302 00:57:05,930 --> 00:57:07,000 Yes. 1303 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,330 AUDIENCE: I think playing off the other department 1304 00:57:09,330 --> 00:57:12,427 to try and get off that set train, getting Dining to make 1305 00:57:12,427 --> 00:57:13,510 that call could be useful. 1306 00:57:13,510 --> 00:57:15,880 But playing the devil's advocate, what would have 1307 00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:18,213 happened if they just did it and then asked for a grant? 1308 00:57:18,213 --> 00:57:19,672 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: They couldn't. 1309 00:57:19,672 --> 00:57:21,150 They had to have a place to do it. 1310 00:57:21,150 --> 00:57:23,700 AUDIENCE: Say if one of the faculty that was supporting 1311 00:57:23,700 --> 00:57:25,940 them would let them do a shoestring version, 1312 00:57:25,940 --> 00:57:28,070 and so they could go to Facilities with a couple 1313 00:57:28,070 --> 00:57:31,780 cans of biodiesel and say, try this out for a week. 1314 00:57:31,780 --> 00:57:34,090 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Well, they're not going to-- 1315 00:57:37,410 --> 00:57:39,270 if you've got a faculty member to give up 1316 00:57:39,270 --> 00:57:42,330 lab space, which around here is not one of the easy things 1317 00:57:42,330 --> 00:57:44,100 to do-- 1318 00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:46,365 and plus they didn't have-- 1319 00:57:46,365 --> 00:57:47,740 I'm just trying to think through. 1320 00:57:47,740 --> 00:57:50,080 I hadn't thought about this approach. 1321 00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:55,140 They had enough money to buy a reactor, a commercial piece 1322 00:57:55,140 --> 00:57:56,170 of equipment. 1323 00:57:56,170 --> 00:57:57,930 So they couldn't start small and scale up 1324 00:57:57,930 --> 00:57:59,760 because you couldn't do it twice. 1325 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:01,420 So you had to be all in. 1326 00:58:01,420 --> 00:58:04,450 So you needed a reasonable amount of space. 1327 00:58:04,450 --> 00:58:06,420 And I think finding a faculty member 1328 00:58:06,420 --> 00:58:09,863 to do that-- if they'd done it, that'd be a way forward. 1329 00:58:09,863 --> 00:58:12,280 AUDIENCE: Obviously an approach I would have shoehorned it 1330 00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:13,230 into a UROP. 1331 00:58:13,230 --> 00:58:16,380 And then that would give me money and space. 1332 00:58:16,380 --> 00:58:19,230 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: UROP is not going to give you space. 1333 00:58:19,230 --> 00:58:24,810 UROP is not going to-- space is the killer here because space, 1334 00:58:24,810 --> 00:58:27,240 it's free, and it's a status symbol. 1335 00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:31,274 So there are no worse fights at any university than over space. 1336 00:58:31,274 --> 00:58:32,847 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]? 1337 00:58:32,847 --> 00:58:35,430 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Ultimately, it's the faculty member's lab 1338 00:58:35,430 --> 00:58:37,387 space, ultimately. 1339 00:58:37,387 --> 00:58:38,970 Yeah, let me go back there, then here, 1340 00:58:38,970 --> 00:58:40,260 and then I'm going to move on. 1341 00:58:40,260 --> 00:58:42,090 AUDIENCE: And just one of the thing 1342 00:58:42,090 --> 00:58:44,010 I think maybe they should have done, 1343 00:58:44,010 --> 00:58:47,360 and I doubt they did this, actually look at this. 1344 00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,210 I mean, I doubt that they actually sat down and realized 1345 00:58:51,210 --> 00:58:53,100 that this is mostly this department, 1346 00:58:53,100 --> 00:58:55,910 and this department, and those people who know that. 1347 00:58:55,910 --> 00:58:59,790 So maybe I think they're the kind of-- 1348 00:58:59,790 --> 00:59:02,580 talk to someone, and then that person from someone else. 1349 00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:06,530 I think it was kind of like learning by doing things. 1350 00:59:06,530 --> 00:59:08,393 And I think if they had some their homework 1351 00:59:08,393 --> 00:59:10,305 and sold the structure, maybe they would have 1352 00:59:10,305 --> 00:59:13,686 known to do this versus stupid. 1353 00:59:13,686 --> 00:59:15,780 AUDIENCE: I was going to say going 1354 00:59:15,780 --> 00:59:18,270 through the top-down method, one of the things they learned 1355 00:59:18,270 --> 00:59:23,040 later on was that MIT does not react well to bad publicity. 1356 00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,085 So working with the mtvU initiative, 1357 00:59:26,085 --> 00:59:27,460 they were the ones that gave them 1358 00:59:27,460 --> 00:59:30,060 the initial grant saying, hey, we're going to work with them. 1359 00:59:30,060 --> 00:59:31,200 They gave us this initial grant. 1360 00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:32,783 They want to come back a year from now 1361 00:59:32,783 --> 00:59:34,650 to see what we've done with that money, 1362 00:59:34,650 --> 00:59:36,910 and they want to do a special piece on MIT, 1363 00:59:36,910 --> 00:59:39,690 it would just hit MIT right away and be like, all right, 1364 00:59:39,690 --> 00:59:41,190 now we have to do this. 1365 00:59:41,190 --> 00:59:43,298 Otherwise, we're going to look like complete jerks 1366 00:59:43,298 --> 00:59:45,090 for not letting our students follow through 1367 00:59:45,090 --> 00:59:46,175 with their initiative. 1368 00:59:46,175 --> 00:59:47,550 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: And you have 1369 00:59:47,550 --> 00:59:52,320 to make sure that somebody who cares about MIT's image, 1370 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,750 and who isn't just rewarded for delivering the mail on time, 1371 00:59:55,750 --> 00:59:59,880 making sure the trees are trimmed, is aware of this. 1372 00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:03,170 So let me move on. 1373 01:00:03,170 --> 01:00:06,058 I think we've hit almost all the points. 1374 01:00:06,058 --> 01:00:07,850 Oh, that was supposed to come on in pieces. 1375 01:00:10,910 --> 01:00:13,490 So much for custom animation, but we can do this. 1376 01:00:17,370 --> 01:00:20,660 You really have to understand the organization. 1377 01:00:20,660 --> 01:00:22,520 I mean, every organization that's 1378 01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:26,270 larger than 10 or 15 people ends up 1379 01:00:26,270 --> 01:00:28,820 having reporting responsibilities, a division 1380 01:00:28,820 --> 01:00:31,890 of labor, different people rewarded for different things, 1381 01:00:31,890 --> 01:00:33,350 some sort of procedures. 1382 01:00:33,350 --> 01:00:35,280 And that makes change hard. 1383 01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:36,697 That's not a bad thing. 1384 01:00:36,697 --> 01:00:38,030 It's good at getting stuff done. 1385 01:00:38,030 --> 01:00:39,750 It's not good at changing. 1386 01:00:39,750 --> 01:00:41,870 So, how do you get change done? 1387 01:00:41,870 --> 01:00:48,010 Well, there is a tendency to mimic good organizations. 1388 01:00:48,010 --> 01:00:50,390 MIT occasionally resists this tendency. 1389 01:00:50,390 --> 01:00:54,860 There was a story of a fundraising organizer years ago 1390 01:00:54,860 --> 01:00:58,010 that said to a president, to be nameless, well, 1391 01:00:58,010 --> 01:00:59,450 we haven't done this quite before, 1392 01:00:59,450 --> 01:01:01,970 but here's how Harvard, Yale, and Princeton do it. 1393 01:01:01,970 --> 01:01:03,773 And the response was, we're MIT. 1394 01:01:03,773 --> 01:01:04,440 What do we care? 1395 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:06,980 Well, I mean, raising money is raising money it turns out. 1396 01:01:06,980 --> 01:01:10,340 And there is a good thing to imitate. 1397 01:01:10,340 --> 01:01:16,640 The other thing we saw here is whatever 1398 01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:18,650 the goals of the organization are that we all 1399 01:01:18,650 --> 01:01:22,830 have tattooed on our foreheads, people have their own goals. 1400 01:01:22,830 --> 01:01:26,460 So in no organization do you really get, 1401 01:01:26,460 --> 01:01:29,510 I live to serve MIT's grand goals, 1402 01:01:29,510 --> 01:01:34,020 or I live to make money for BP or Apple. 1403 01:01:34,020 --> 01:01:37,700 I've got my-- in a lot of cases, I have my professional norms 1404 01:01:37,700 --> 01:01:38,270 and values. 1405 01:01:38,270 --> 01:01:40,700 I've got my own career concerns. 1406 01:01:40,700 --> 01:01:43,910 And this is particularly tricky when the organization's goals 1407 01:01:43,910 --> 01:01:47,390 are fuzzy, and universities' goals are fuzzy. 1408 01:01:50,070 --> 01:01:53,630 I think-- one can debate this, but I 1409 01:01:53,630 --> 01:01:56,000 think this kind of issue of goal conflict 1410 01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:57,890 is most serious for the organization 1411 01:01:57,890 --> 01:01:59,087 in middle management. 1412 01:01:59,087 --> 01:02:00,920 If you're at the bottom of the organization, 1413 01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,480 you're delivering mail, you're delivering mail, 1414 01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:07,110 and you get rewarded for delivering mail well, bingo. 1415 01:02:07,110 --> 01:02:09,660 But if you're up the notch a little bit, 1416 01:02:09,660 --> 01:02:12,030 you have budget authority, you have the ability 1417 01:02:12,030 --> 01:02:16,140 to direct others, and you're concerned about your own career 1418 01:02:16,140 --> 01:02:18,060 and about promotion. 1419 01:02:18,060 --> 01:02:22,020 And every organization wrestles with this. 1420 01:02:22,020 --> 01:02:24,840 You want to stand out to be promoted. 1421 01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:26,610 But, of course, you have to be cooperative 1422 01:02:26,610 --> 01:02:28,800 for the organization. 1423 01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,580 That's a standard tension. 1424 01:02:32,580 --> 01:02:34,560 Lots of good ideas, but limited resources. 1425 01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:36,180 Pats on the back are cheap. 1426 01:02:36,180 --> 01:02:39,390 This is exactly what happened to these folks. 1427 01:02:39,390 --> 01:02:41,505 They trotted around this idea of biodiesel. 1428 01:02:41,505 --> 01:02:44,400 And everybody said, that's a great idea. 1429 01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:46,800 And they were clearly energized by that. 1430 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,840 But that's free, as a number of you pointed out. 1431 01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:51,000 That's free. 1432 01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:52,800 That's great. 1433 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:54,810 Division of labor, it leads to silos. 1434 01:02:54,810 --> 01:02:57,540 I mentioned some weeks ago that when I came back 1435 01:02:57,540 --> 01:03:02,130 from Washington, young and bright-eyed in 1991, 1436 01:03:02,130 --> 01:03:05,610 I pushed for Green Lights at MIT, which Green Lights was 1437 01:03:05,610 --> 01:03:08,010 then a new EPA program that organizations 1438 01:03:08,010 --> 01:03:10,530 would pledge to use efficient lighting when 1439 01:03:10,530 --> 01:03:12,610 it made economic sense. 1440 01:03:12,610 --> 01:03:15,990 And so I said, why don't we do that? 1441 01:03:15,990 --> 01:03:18,570 It's good press, and it'll lead to MIT 1442 01:03:18,570 --> 01:03:21,510 as an institution to look at its lighting decisions. 1443 01:03:21,510 --> 01:03:23,940 The place is full of incandescent bulbs. 1444 01:03:23,940 --> 01:03:24,870 We can save money. 1445 01:03:24,870 --> 01:03:26,440 It'll be great. 1446 01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:30,480 And I got pushed appropriately to Facilities. 1447 01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:32,940 And the then crusty old head of Facilities 1448 01:03:32,940 --> 01:03:36,900 said to me, let me explain it to you. 1449 01:03:36,900 --> 01:03:39,360 The light bulbs come out of my budget, 1450 01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:42,020 the electricity doesn't. 1451 01:03:42,020 --> 01:03:43,610 OK. 1452 01:03:43,610 --> 01:03:48,560 So the notion that I should put in more expensive bulbs 1453 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:51,050 to save somebody else's electricity 1454 01:03:51,050 --> 01:03:54,230 doesn't work because my budget's not going to go up, 1455 01:03:54,230 --> 01:03:57,720 and I've still got to replace the light bulbs. 1456 01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:59,490 Well, I quit. 1457 01:03:59,490 --> 01:04:02,700 I mean, there are only so many battles you can fight. 1458 01:04:02,700 --> 01:04:04,320 And I didn't see a way around that 1459 01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,600 without changing MIT'S budgeting procedures, which 1460 01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:08,470 wasn't going to happen. 1461 01:04:08,470 --> 01:04:12,660 I think that basically there was an instruction down 1462 01:04:12,660 --> 01:04:13,710 to be more efficient. 1463 01:04:13,710 --> 01:04:16,980 We don't put a lot of incandescent bulbs in anymore. 1464 01:04:16,980 --> 01:04:19,457 But around 1991, this was somewhat radical 1465 01:04:19,457 --> 01:04:21,540 that we ought to be moving to compact fluorescents 1466 01:04:21,540 --> 01:04:22,870 and so forth. 1467 01:04:22,870 --> 01:04:24,330 But that's a silo. 1468 01:04:24,330 --> 01:04:25,080 That's a silo. 1469 01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,090 The guy at Facilities had his incentives, 1470 01:04:27,090 --> 01:04:30,060 and he had his instructions, and he was doing his job. 1471 01:04:30,060 --> 01:04:35,130 His job was minimize how much you spend to provide light. 1472 01:04:35,130 --> 01:04:36,660 That's the job. 1473 01:04:36,660 --> 01:04:39,210 It wasn't minimize the lifecycle cost 1474 01:04:39,210 --> 01:04:41,728 because he didn't pay for electricity. 1475 01:04:41,728 --> 01:04:44,020 Would it have been better if he'd paid for electricity? 1476 01:04:44,020 --> 01:04:44,770 Maybe. 1477 01:04:44,770 --> 01:04:48,220 Hard to do, hard to do. 1478 01:04:48,220 --> 01:04:49,720 He wasn't graded on it. 1479 01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:51,260 The system wasn't in place. 1480 01:04:51,260 --> 01:04:54,160 There were formal rules, divided responsibility, 1481 01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:56,390 and he was managing his silo. 1482 01:04:56,390 --> 01:04:59,590 So I mentioned the next one, that space is 1483 01:04:59,590 --> 01:05:02,540 unpriced but a status symbol. 1484 01:05:02,540 --> 01:05:05,090 There are no more brutal fights than over something 1485 01:05:05,090 --> 01:05:09,475 that's free that you really want. 1486 01:05:09,475 --> 01:05:10,350 Let me just say that. 1487 01:05:10,350 --> 01:05:12,330 So when students say, oh, we'd like some space, 1488 01:05:12,330 --> 01:05:16,110 too, this is like going between the trenches in World War 1489 01:05:16,110 --> 01:05:19,920 I. It's not a place you really find yourself comfortable, 1490 01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,440 unless you have allies. 1491 01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:25,920 And finally, why would Facilities care about you 1492 01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:28,110 folks, with all due respect? 1493 01:05:28,110 --> 01:05:31,220 Making you happy is not their job. 1494 01:05:31,220 --> 01:05:34,550 They report to various other people in the administration. 1495 01:05:34,550 --> 01:05:35,810 They do not report to you. 1496 01:05:35,810 --> 01:05:39,740 They do not report to department heads really or to deans. 1497 01:05:39,740 --> 01:05:42,680 They report to Facilities up through the executive vice 1498 01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:43,550 president. 1499 01:05:43,550 --> 01:05:45,030 So you've got no influence. 1500 01:05:45,030 --> 01:05:50,120 So, how does change ever happen? 1501 01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:52,220 We did get biodiesel. 1502 01:05:52,220 --> 01:05:54,450 And I will say the Energy minor that a lot of you 1503 01:05:54,450 --> 01:05:57,210 were engaged in is an example of that. 1504 01:05:57,210 --> 01:06:01,130 It's the first interschool minor. 1505 01:06:01,130 --> 01:06:05,330 This took several years of work to get it 1506 01:06:05,330 --> 01:06:10,160 through various organizations because it wasn't an animal 1507 01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,790 for which MIT had rules. 1508 01:06:12,790 --> 01:06:15,835 The notion that-- departments offer minors. 1509 01:06:15,835 --> 01:06:18,760 There might even be a school minor. 1510 01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:24,520 But the Energy minor has pieces from engineering, and science, 1511 01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:29,590 and Sloan, and in principle the other schools as well. 1512 01:06:29,590 --> 01:06:32,720 There was no governance structure for that. 1513 01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:34,240 It all made sense. 1514 01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:35,207 Everybody approved it. 1515 01:06:35,207 --> 01:06:37,040 Everybody's, oh, a great idea, a great idea. 1516 01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,040 I just want to make sure we maintain quality control 1517 01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:41,290 and have the usual governance. 1518 01:06:41,290 --> 01:06:43,060 Wait a minute, how are we going to do that without a department 1519 01:06:43,060 --> 01:06:44,560 being in charge? 1520 01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,720 How are we going to do that? 1521 01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:47,470 Well, it happened. 1522 01:06:47,470 --> 01:06:49,240 A number of faculty members cared. 1523 01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:51,880 The top administration cared. 1524 01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:53,770 The problem was solved. 1525 01:06:53,770 --> 01:06:56,560 But it was another one of those things that didn't quite 1526 01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,350 fit the existing categories. 1527 01:06:59,350 --> 01:07:03,830 It wasn't a department, it wasn't a live-in group, 1528 01:07:03,830 --> 01:07:07,430 it wasn't an administrative unit. 1529 01:07:07,430 --> 01:07:10,045 It was a different kind of thing. 1530 01:07:10,045 --> 01:07:13,670 It got solved, a lot of work. 1531 01:07:13,670 --> 01:07:16,660 So let me walk briefly, given time 1532 01:07:16,660 --> 01:07:20,350 through the optional readings, which have 1533 01:07:20,350 --> 01:07:22,060 interesting examples of change. 1534 01:07:22,060 --> 01:07:25,180 And let me just say a little bit about each of them. 1535 01:07:25,180 --> 01:07:26,950 They're not tough reading, but-- 1536 01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:28,690 one of them is. 1537 01:07:28,690 --> 01:07:33,850 Sharma has an interesting study of oil and gas firms. 1538 01:07:33,850 --> 01:07:40,090 And the question is, what determines whether or not 1539 01:07:40,090 --> 01:07:42,040 they go beyond the requirements of regulation 1540 01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:43,540 in doing environmental protection? 1541 01:07:43,540 --> 01:07:46,330 Because a lot of them do. 1542 01:07:46,330 --> 01:07:47,380 Interesting study. 1543 01:07:47,380 --> 01:07:49,280 When does it happen? 1544 01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:53,290 Well, again, there's a lot of statistical work. 1545 01:07:53,290 --> 01:07:55,900 But I'll just go down the more likely to go beyond. 1546 01:07:55,900 --> 01:07:59,320 First of all, companies, there's a lot of questionnaires 1547 01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:01,660 about attitudes and so forth. 1548 01:08:01,660 --> 01:08:04,330 If you view environmental protection as something 1549 01:08:04,330 --> 01:08:07,710 that the company is about, well, that's 1550 01:08:07,710 --> 01:08:10,575 not a Friedman view, that's a Handy view. 1551 01:08:10,575 --> 01:08:14,010 If you have a broad view of what business is for, you can say, 1552 01:08:14,010 --> 01:08:15,450 and one of the things we try to be 1553 01:08:15,450 --> 01:08:18,670 is responsible environmental citizens. 1554 01:08:18,670 --> 01:08:22,300 Milton Friedman would say, we obey the law. 1555 01:08:22,300 --> 01:08:24,130 Handy might say, well, we go beyond the law 1556 01:08:24,130 --> 01:08:27,100 where it makes sense, if you view environmental protection 1557 01:08:27,100 --> 01:08:29,290 as part of the identity, if you view 1558 01:08:29,290 --> 01:08:32,240 the environment as an opportunity, 1559 01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:34,450 an opportunity for leadership, rather 1560 01:08:34,450 --> 01:08:37,140 than a threat to profits. 1561 01:08:37,140 --> 01:08:40,870 BP went to Beyond Petroleum, you may recall. 1562 01:08:40,870 --> 01:08:43,120 It viewed the opportunity as it-- 1563 01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,250 the environment as an opportunity for leadership. 1564 01:08:45,250 --> 01:08:47,020 Now, did it do much besides advertise? 1565 01:08:47,020 --> 01:08:47,680 No. 1566 01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:49,540 But it advertised like a demon. 1567 01:08:49,540 --> 01:08:53,740 And it viewed environmental protection as an opportunity. 1568 01:08:53,740 --> 01:08:56,740 Again, these firms that view that environmental protection 1569 01:08:56,740 --> 01:08:59,380 as an opportunity to demonstrate that they're a leader 1570 01:08:59,380 --> 01:09:01,689 to make points go beyond. 1571 01:09:01,689 --> 01:09:04,120 OK, but this is a positioning issue, 1572 01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:08,080 just like positioning biodiesel is an opportunity for MIT, 1573 01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:12,600 not a threat to Facilities, gets it done. 1574 01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:15,013 So if you view the environment as an opportunity, 1575 01:09:15,013 --> 01:09:15,930 you're going to do it. 1576 01:09:15,930 --> 01:09:20,790 Also if you've got money, that doesn't hurt. 1577 01:09:20,790 --> 01:09:24,420 Another-- this is actually very surprising. 1578 01:09:24,420 --> 01:09:26,760 It's a study of 14 pulp and paper 1579 01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:29,170 mills in various countries. 1580 01:09:29,170 --> 01:09:31,660 And they have different regulatory systems-- 1581 01:09:31,660 --> 01:09:34,660 New Zealand, Australia, Canada, US. 1582 01:09:34,660 --> 01:09:38,649 But it turns out the differences in environmental regulation 1583 01:09:38,649 --> 01:09:42,401 don't do much to explain differences in performance, 1584 01:09:42,401 --> 01:09:43,359 which they can measure. 1585 01:09:43,359 --> 01:09:47,740 They can measure emissions per ton or per whatever. 1586 01:09:47,740 --> 01:09:50,649 That doesn't do it. 1587 01:09:50,649 --> 01:09:54,460 Most did more than was required. 1588 01:09:54,460 --> 01:09:59,830 And their conclusion that they draw, being profitable helps. 1589 01:09:59,830 --> 01:10:02,770 Being profitable a few years before the sample was taken 1590 01:10:02,770 --> 01:10:06,850 helps, if environmental management style was affected 1591 01:10:06,850 --> 01:10:08,950 by was the firm profitable. 1592 01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:12,790 But they all pointed to community pressure. 1593 01:10:12,790 --> 01:10:14,860 They all pointed to community pressure. 1594 01:10:14,860 --> 01:10:18,670 If you're in a community that is organized 1595 01:10:18,670 --> 01:10:24,150 and vocal on the subject of environmental protection-- 1596 01:10:24,150 --> 01:10:25,440 the plant manager lives there. 1597 01:10:28,290 --> 01:10:30,330 This comes to the issue of, would it 1598 01:10:30,330 --> 01:10:33,720 have mattered if you'd been able to organize 1599 01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:36,780 100 students to march on the president's office in favor 1600 01:10:36,780 --> 01:10:37,570 of biodiesel? 1601 01:10:37,570 --> 01:10:40,065 Well, yes. 1602 01:10:40,065 --> 01:10:41,440 They don't have any voting power. 1603 01:10:41,440 --> 01:10:43,632 They're not in any of those organization charts. 1604 01:10:43,632 --> 01:10:44,590 Would it have mattered? 1605 01:10:44,590 --> 01:10:45,220 Yes. 1606 01:10:45,220 --> 01:10:48,655 It'd be a globe story, among other things. 1607 01:10:48,655 --> 01:10:49,660 That would turn it. 1608 01:10:49,660 --> 01:10:50,620 That would turn it. 1609 01:10:50,620 --> 01:10:53,800 So it was striking-- again, this is interview work. 1610 01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:56,530 It's striking how often these folks 1611 01:10:56,530 --> 01:10:58,840 pointed to community pressure, sometimes 1612 01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:02,260 their customers, but often their communities, 1613 01:11:02,260 --> 01:11:06,250 as to how they decided to approach the environment. 1614 01:11:06,250 --> 01:11:07,480 And this is just-- 1615 01:11:07,480 --> 01:11:11,170 this they could do by talking to the managers. 1616 01:11:11,170 --> 01:11:14,170 Were they just barely complying with the law, were they 1617 01:11:14,170 --> 01:11:17,440 committed to complying, were they trying to be strategic 1618 01:11:17,440 --> 01:11:19,120 about it, or did they really believe 1619 01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:20,620 in protecting the environment? 1620 01:11:20,620 --> 01:11:22,400 And these are emissions measures. 1621 01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:24,700 This is biological oxygen demand. 1622 01:11:24,700 --> 01:11:26,650 This is total suspended solids. 1623 01:11:26,650 --> 01:11:28,060 And I forget what this is. 1624 01:11:28,060 --> 01:11:31,900 But you see that, depending on the company's strategy, which 1625 01:11:31,900 --> 01:11:35,710 is influenced by the community, by how much slack they have, 1626 01:11:35,710 --> 01:11:40,300 their profitability, you get better performance 1627 01:11:40,300 --> 01:11:43,760 per, well, kilograms per day. 1628 01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:46,880 But I think it's per unit of output, I hope. 1629 01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:49,460 Andrew, you had a comment. 1630 01:11:49,460 --> 01:11:52,320 ANDREW: However, given the community, though, 1631 01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:57,390 this community pressure, this means 1632 01:11:57,390 --> 01:12:00,947 to indirectly affect the person who makes the decision? 1633 01:12:00,947 --> 01:12:02,030 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Sure. 1634 01:12:02,030 --> 01:12:04,120 ANDREW: What I'm trying to say that if it 1635 01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:06,562 could be bribing him, it could be threatening him, 1636 01:12:06,562 --> 01:12:07,547 it could be-- 1637 01:12:07,547 --> 01:12:09,630 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: No, they didn't describe it-- 1638 01:12:09,630 --> 01:12:11,220 they didn't describe it like that. 1639 01:12:11,220 --> 01:12:13,470 Take a look at the piece. 1640 01:12:13,470 --> 01:12:15,750 It was social pressure. 1641 01:12:15,750 --> 01:12:18,720 It was when you go to the club, people 1642 01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:22,170 say, the river's pretty smelly today, George. 1643 01:12:22,170 --> 01:12:24,395 Can't you guys do better? 1644 01:12:24,395 --> 01:12:25,770 When you go to the grocery store, 1645 01:12:25,770 --> 01:12:27,855 people walk around like this. 1646 01:12:27,855 --> 01:12:29,790 It's that-- that kind of pressure 1647 01:12:29,790 --> 01:12:32,048 is what they pointed to, not bribing. 1648 01:12:32,048 --> 01:12:33,090 That's not going to work. 1649 01:12:33,090 --> 01:12:37,490 ANDREW: Because only-- ultimately though, 1650 01:12:37,490 --> 01:12:40,560 should your goal be that I should influence the community, 1651 01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:44,360 or should my goal be I need to influence that person somehow? 1652 01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:45,480 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: Sure. 1653 01:12:45,480 --> 01:12:48,250 The goal should be I need to influence that person somehow. 1654 01:12:48,250 --> 01:12:52,200 But if you can organize social pressure, 1655 01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:54,810 if you can run editorials in the paper, 1656 01:12:54,810 --> 01:12:57,010 you can do all kinds of things. 1657 01:12:57,010 --> 01:12:58,150 This one is interesting. 1658 01:12:58,150 --> 01:13:01,210 Let me just do it quickly so I get you out of here on time. 1659 01:13:01,210 --> 01:13:02,850 This guy looks at-- 1660 01:13:02,850 --> 01:13:05,310 first of all, universities didn't do recycling 1661 01:13:05,310 --> 01:13:07,290 until the late '80s. 1662 01:13:07,290 --> 01:13:09,780 This person looks at what kind of recycling programs 1663 01:13:09,780 --> 01:13:12,900 a bunch of universities and colleges around the Great Lakes 1664 01:13:12,900 --> 01:13:15,810 established between the late '80s and '95. 1665 01:13:15,810 --> 01:13:17,550 A lot of them went in. 1666 01:13:17,550 --> 01:13:19,650 They went in in two forms. 1667 01:13:19,650 --> 01:13:21,540 And this is social pressure. 1668 01:13:21,540 --> 01:13:23,520 This is a social movement. 1669 01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:24,690 We should all be recycling. 1670 01:13:24,690 --> 01:13:25,920 Isn't this great? 1671 01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:28,680 And universities and colleges complied in two ways. 1672 01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:32,340 Status creation was you name a recycling director, 1673 01:13:32,340 --> 01:13:35,280 you create a new position, you give it budget, and you say, 1674 01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:37,500 you're in charge of recycling. 1675 01:13:37,500 --> 01:13:40,775 And the other way is you say to those folks in Facilities 1676 01:13:40,775 --> 01:13:42,900 who we've been bad mouthing for an hour and a half, 1677 01:13:42,900 --> 01:13:46,490 and you say, oh, by the way you're also doing recycling. 1678 01:13:46,490 --> 01:13:51,890 Now, you would expect having a person actually in charge 1679 01:13:51,890 --> 01:13:54,460 of recycling with that responsibility evaluated 1680 01:13:54,460 --> 01:13:55,835 that way would be more effective. 1681 01:13:55,835 --> 01:13:57,710 It doesn't measure it. 1682 01:13:57,710 --> 01:14:02,570 What's interesting is he looked at a whole bunch of variables 1683 01:14:02,570 --> 01:14:06,500 that determined, did they adopt a status creation approach, 1684 01:14:06,500 --> 01:14:10,520 did they adopt a role accretion approach? 1685 01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,550 Large selective institutions-- selective institutions tend 1686 01:14:13,550 --> 01:14:16,130 to have more active students like you-- 1687 01:14:16,130 --> 01:14:21,320 and the presence of the Student Environmental Action Coalition 1688 01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:25,687 were all positively associated with this role accretion. 1689 01:14:28,670 --> 01:14:31,760 The small public schools that seem 1690 01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:33,950 to be influenced by their peers were more 1691 01:14:33,950 --> 01:14:36,950 likely to do role accretion. 1692 01:14:36,950 --> 01:14:40,580 If you had a chapter of this Student Environmental Action 1693 01:14:40,580 --> 01:14:43,340 Coalition, you were less likely to do 1694 01:14:43,340 --> 01:14:47,000 role accretion, very significant impact, very 1695 01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,250 significant impact. 1696 01:14:49,250 --> 01:14:50,410 Yeah. 1697 01:14:50,410 --> 01:14:54,030 AUDIENCE: Did it say in the paper for the status creation 1698 01:14:54,030 --> 01:14:55,790 if they often got someone from the outside 1699 01:14:55,790 --> 01:14:58,370 to come and take the position, or if they promoted someone 1700 01:14:58,370 --> 01:14:59,780 from within their own ranks? 1701 01:14:59,780 --> 01:15:01,580 RICHARD SCHMALENSEE: They actually did. 1702 01:15:01,580 --> 01:15:02,750 They actually did say. 1703 01:15:02,750 --> 01:15:05,030 And it tended to be a recent graduate who 1704 01:15:05,030 --> 01:15:08,720 had been active in this area, just the sort of person 1705 01:15:08,720 --> 01:15:11,540 you would expect, right? 1706 01:15:11,540 --> 01:15:16,280 And let me just for fun, if you're 1707 01:15:16,280 --> 01:15:20,720 looking for something interesting to do, first look 1708 01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:25,970 up SIAC on Wikipedia and read what it says about it, 1709 01:15:25,970 --> 01:15:28,340 and then go to the group's own website 1710 01:15:28,340 --> 01:15:32,750 and read among the most amazing histories I've ever read. 1711 01:15:32,750 --> 01:15:37,770 It's when they say 1996 was a bad year for us, 1712 01:15:37,770 --> 01:15:41,600 we lost all of our funding and staff. 1713 01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:45,890 It's a really, really interesting-- 1714 01:15:45,890 --> 01:15:48,500 but on Wikipedia, they have 70 college chapters 1715 01:15:48,500 --> 01:15:51,170 and are very active. 1716 01:15:51,170 --> 01:15:52,640 This you can read on your own. 1717 01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:56,460 It's a summary of some of the stuff we've talked about. 1718 01:15:56,460 --> 01:15:59,280 I'll see you Wednesday for the quiz. 1719 01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:00,650 The quiz will be lovely. 1720 01:16:00,650 --> 01:16:02,460 It's closed book. 1721 01:16:02,460 --> 01:16:05,360 It does not require computation. 1722 01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:09,500 It does, I'm afraid, require some thinking. 1723 01:16:09,500 --> 01:16:13,290 It does not require a lot of writing. 1724 01:16:13,290 --> 01:16:16,163 So please, we all hate the strategy of, if I put enough 1725 01:16:16,163 --> 01:16:17,330 down, I'll get a good grade. 1726 01:16:17,330 --> 01:16:19,310 Don't do that, please. 1727 01:16:19,310 --> 01:16:21,160 Thank you.