WEBVTT 00:00:05.300 --> 00:00:08.660 ELIZABETH CHOE: So I think the idea of a workshop-based class, 00:00:08.660 --> 00:00:12.030 a hands-on class, that's what's becoming trendy in education. 00:00:12.030 --> 00:00:13.740 At least at MIT right now. 00:00:13.740 --> 00:00:17.640 It's bringing it back to mind and hand. 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:19.470 They won't work if students don't 00:00:19.470 --> 00:00:23.450 bring anything to workshop or have anything ready. 00:00:23.450 --> 00:00:27.030 So that's why the first two or three days of class 00:00:27.030 --> 00:00:31.149 were very, very information intense to bring them up 00:00:31.149 --> 00:00:33.690 to the point where they had a script that they could actually 00:00:33.690 --> 00:00:36.620 read aloud at the table read. 00:00:36.620 --> 00:00:39.600 Or that they would have a scene they could storyboard. 00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:46.790 How was it leading the workshops? 00:00:46.790 --> 00:00:49.590 Because I could kind of let you guys take over for those. 00:00:49.590 --> 00:00:52.810 JOSHUA GUNN: Yeah, I mean I think it was great. 00:00:52.810 --> 00:00:55.890 I mean, I think we couldn't have done 00:00:55.890 --> 00:00:58.540 what we did if they hadn't come to the class 00:00:58.540 --> 00:01:02.390 with a portion of a script that they could storyboard. 00:01:02.390 --> 00:01:05.260 Or do some sort of storyboard work on. 00:01:05.260 --> 00:01:10.720 I think maybe in the future you might think about having-- 00:01:10.720 --> 00:01:12.210 well, I don't have. 00:01:12.210 --> 00:01:14.220 Setting it up so that there's instruction 00:01:14.220 --> 00:01:19.750 about say, storyboarding, and examples and kind of models. 00:01:19.750 --> 00:01:22.660 Then have them do that and then have them return 00:01:22.660 --> 00:01:23.680 for the critique. 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:28.760 As opposed to trying to compress all of that into one class. 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:30.770 But again, that requires more time. 00:01:34.880 --> 00:01:38.490 GEORGE ZAIDAN: My only workshop-- workshops 00:01:38.490 --> 00:01:42.130 are great because it means that you rely a lot more on stuff 00:01:42.130 --> 00:01:45.770 that you sort of just know and can talk off the cuff about 00:01:45.770 --> 00:01:50.565 and don't have to prepare long lectures, which is fantastic. 00:01:50.565 --> 00:01:51.940 ELIZABETH CHOE: But that requires 00:01:51.940 --> 00:01:54.367 that you actually are just natively an expert in that. 00:01:54.367 --> 00:01:56.200 GEORGE ZAIDAN: But the nice thing about that 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:59.750 is that you can reduce the time you spend speaking 00:01:59.750 --> 00:02:04.220 and increase the time that they spend working and speaking. 00:02:04.220 --> 00:02:06.930 And I think the earlier that you get the students talking 00:02:06.930 --> 00:02:09.600 and doing things things in the workshop, 00:02:09.600 --> 00:02:13.650 the more quickly they realize that it's not a lecture. 00:02:13.650 --> 00:02:15.780 And that they're not going to sit there and absorb. 00:02:15.780 --> 00:02:18.430 That they have to actually do something. 00:02:18.430 --> 00:02:20.740 ELIZABETH CHOE: So you had people reading their scripts 00:02:20.740 --> 00:02:22.240 from the beginning of your workshop. 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:23.460 There was no easing into it. 00:02:23.460 --> 00:02:25.950 It was pretty much just like all right, this 00:02:25.950 --> 00:02:29.350 is the script that so and so submitted last night 00:02:29.350 --> 00:02:31.110 OK, come up and read it for us. 00:02:31.110 --> 00:02:32.280 GEORGE ZAIDAN: Yeah. 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:36.740 And then they get over their nerves and they just do it. 00:02:36.740 --> 00:02:39.190 And then you roll into it. 00:02:39.190 --> 00:02:42.010 The hard thing about doing that is-- giving feedback 00:02:42.010 --> 00:02:45.530 in a workshop is tough because you can't just 00:02:45.530 --> 00:02:47.840 be like great job. 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:48.395 Go sit down. 00:02:48.395 --> 00:02:50.270 That was great that you did it, but we're not 00:02:50.270 --> 00:02:53.160 going to give you any constructive criticism. 00:02:53.160 --> 00:02:55.862 You've got to say OK, here's what I would do differently. 00:02:55.862 --> 00:02:57.320 But you have to do it in such a way 00:02:57.320 --> 00:03:01.070 that it's not ego destroying. 00:03:01.070 --> 00:03:03.210 And that applies for any of the stuff. 00:03:06.004 --> 00:03:07.670 It's hard to do, especially for hosting, 00:03:07.670 --> 00:03:11.380 because there you're commenting on their tone of voice, 00:03:11.380 --> 00:03:12.417 their delivery style-- 00:03:12.417 --> 00:03:13.750 ELIZABETH CHOE: Their existence. 00:03:13.750 --> 00:03:14.580 GEORGE ZAIDAN: The way they talk. 00:03:14.580 --> 00:03:15.080 You know? 00:03:17.390 --> 00:03:21.790 So it's a tricky thing to get. 00:03:21.790 --> 00:03:24.820 You sort of err on the side of being a little bit softer 00:03:24.820 --> 00:03:26.670 than you probably would be. 00:03:26.670 --> 00:03:29.390 JOSHUA GUNN: It's also-- sorry. 00:03:29.390 --> 00:03:31.680 It's also interesting to get them-- 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:36.840 I think just from my basic pedagogical experience, 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:39.440 because I did teach creative writing for a while. 00:03:39.440 --> 00:03:42.500 It's nice to get them-- to get students, 00:03:42.500 --> 00:03:46.700 as you said, doing peer work where they're critiquing 00:03:46.700 --> 00:03:49.960 each other so there isn't just this authority figure that 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:51.050 has all the answers. 00:03:51.050 --> 00:03:53.940 There's also this innate sense that we all have, and students 00:03:53.940 --> 00:03:56.600 have, of what's working and what's not. 00:03:56.600 --> 00:03:58.370 Because they are audience members too 00:03:58.370 --> 00:04:00.362 and they have that audience sensibility. 00:04:00.362 --> 00:04:02.570 ELIZABETH CHOE: Actually a really important thing was 00:04:02.570 --> 00:04:07.690 to establish that the medium in which we are working had no 00:04:07.690 --> 00:04:10.370 established best practices, and that was something that I tried 00:04:10.370 --> 00:04:14.130 to emphasize a lot and say, you know, 00:04:14.130 --> 00:04:17.329 I have very strong opinions on what I think is good hosting 00:04:17.329 --> 00:04:18.260 and what isn't. 00:04:18.260 --> 00:04:20.100 But at the end of the day, you do 00:04:20.100 --> 00:04:23.220 what you want as long as you can justify it to me. 00:04:23.220 --> 00:04:26.200 You can take or leave my advice on how 00:04:26.200 --> 00:04:28.000 I think you should edit this section, 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:30.610 but if you want to stick with what you have and you're 00:04:30.610 --> 00:04:32.752 able to write out why-- 00:04:32.752 --> 00:04:35.500 JOSHUA GUNN: You're going to get an F. 00:04:35.500 --> 00:04:37.000 ELIZABETH CHOE: But an A for effort. 00:04:40.630 --> 00:04:43.580 That's fine as long as I see that they're consciously 00:04:43.580 --> 00:04:45.980 processing their own personal taste. 00:04:49.090 --> 00:04:50.610 What was the thing you just said? 00:04:50.610 --> 00:04:52.140 GEORGE ZAIDAN: I'm saying that you 00:04:52.140 --> 00:04:54.870 don't want to just be the only person critiquing, which 00:04:54.870 --> 00:04:55.720 is really important. 00:04:55.720 --> 00:04:56.530 CHRIS BOEBEL: It's really, really important 00:04:56.530 --> 00:04:57.988 and I think one of the things about 00:04:57.988 --> 00:05:01.180 that too is trying to make the classroom I 00:05:01.180 --> 00:05:04.880 guess kind of a safe space where people can be really honest. 00:05:04.880 --> 00:05:06.574 And it's like, you know what? 00:05:06.574 --> 00:05:08.740 Someone is probably going to go at you and your work 00:05:08.740 --> 00:05:12.660 at some point, but you need to be OK with that. 00:05:12.660 --> 00:05:16.070 And if you feel that you need to be honest with somebody 00:05:16.070 --> 00:05:17.939 about their work, that's OK too. 00:05:17.939 --> 00:05:19.730 As long as you're not doing it on some kind 00:05:19.730 --> 00:05:22.530 of illegitimate grounds. 00:05:22.530 --> 00:05:24.420 If it's a legitimate critique, you 00:05:24.420 --> 00:05:26.485 should feel OK about saying it. 00:05:26.485 --> 00:05:28.110 JOSHUA GUNN: Yeah, that's a good point. 00:05:28.110 --> 00:05:33.220 I think too, it can sometimes be helpful to just kind of lay 00:05:33.220 --> 00:05:34.725 the ground rules of critique. 00:05:34.725 --> 00:05:35.600 Like what's personal. 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:38.470 I mean, sometimes it's not obvious to students 00:05:38.470 --> 00:05:40.610 what's a personal attack. 00:05:40.610 --> 00:05:42.962 What's constructive criticism of the work. 00:05:42.962 --> 00:05:44.420 CHRIS BOEBEL: Sometimes people need 00:05:44.420 --> 00:05:45.740 instruction on peer review. 00:05:45.740 --> 00:05:47.170 JOSHUA GUNN: Yeah, exactly. 00:05:47.170 --> 00:05:50.820 You can't expect that people know the rules. 00:05:50.820 --> 00:05:52.320 ELIZABETH CHOE: Luckily, just having 00:05:52.320 --> 00:05:56.210 Jamie at every single class was really helpful. 00:05:56.210 --> 00:05:57.930 I mean, it's hard. 00:05:57.930 --> 00:05:59.730 In an ideal world, every class would 00:05:59.730 --> 00:06:02.180 have a staff of five people who are 00:06:02.180 --> 00:06:04.830 all experts on different facets of the industry. 00:06:04.830 --> 00:06:06.960 And then a dedicated instructional designer 00:06:06.960 --> 00:06:09.070 facilitating group discussions every day. 00:06:09.070 --> 00:06:11.370 JOSHUA GUNN: Two instructors per student. 00:06:11.370 --> 00:06:12.070 CHRIS BOEBEL: Let's recommend that. 00:06:12.070 --> 00:06:12.580 ELIZABETH CHOE: Right. 00:06:12.580 --> 00:06:14.038 But you know, that's what it takes. 00:06:14.038 --> 00:06:14.780 It really does. 00:06:14.780 --> 00:06:17.460 Because if Jamie wasn't there, I don't 00:06:17.460 --> 00:06:21.200 know how to facilitate classroom discussion. 00:06:21.200 --> 00:06:25.000 She would be able to interject and sort of coach 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:28.330 these things subliminally without having 00:06:28.330 --> 00:06:31.470 to establish guys, these are the classroom rules. 00:06:31.470 --> 00:06:33.020 No picking on people. 00:06:33.020 --> 00:06:34.930 It was just all done very organically. 00:06:34.930 --> 00:06:37.990 And that's actually very hard. 00:06:37.990 --> 00:06:40.420 This is such a cop-out answer to be like, 00:06:40.420 --> 00:06:43.600 it's important to foster a good classroom space. 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:44.180 Go do it. 00:06:44.180 --> 00:06:44.680 You know? 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:49.780 But I don't really know how to give actionable items to people 00:06:49.780 --> 00:06:52.350 who are trying to do this in their schools. 00:06:52.350 --> 00:06:56.010 I think one thing I tried to do was, 00:06:56.010 --> 00:06:57.700 and this was off of Jamie's suggestion, 00:06:57.700 --> 00:07:00.680 was to do every single assignment that I assigned 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:01.890 to the students. 00:07:01.890 --> 00:07:05.250 So on day one when they had to record a selfie pitch, 00:07:05.250 --> 00:07:07.780 I did it and I was like this is not perfect. 00:07:07.780 --> 00:07:09.840 And the next day I pointed out things 00:07:09.840 --> 00:07:12.710 that I didn't like about it or things that could have 00:07:12.710 --> 00:07:14.950 been better about my own work. 00:07:14.950 --> 00:07:17.990 So I think having something physical 00:07:17.990 --> 00:07:21.310 to be able to critique, to sort of show people 00:07:21.310 --> 00:07:22.800 how to critique it, you know? 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:25.120 It's not even just show people what's wrong, 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:29.470 but show people the active critiquing is really important. 00:07:29.470 --> 00:07:32.980 Because if you don't have the physical examples, 00:07:32.980 --> 00:07:36.940 it's just like saying lighting has to be done well. 00:07:36.940 --> 00:07:41.660 Well, if you don't show them an example of a well-lit scene, 00:07:41.660 --> 00:07:45.140 they're not going to be able to do it. 00:07:45.140 --> 00:07:47.450 CHRIS BOEBEL: The things you get from students 00:07:47.450 --> 00:07:49.940 who aren't used to giving that kind of critique 00:07:49.940 --> 00:07:54.289 tend to be either oh, it was good or I didn't like it. 00:07:54.289 --> 00:07:56.330 And neither one of those is particularly helpful. 00:07:56.330 --> 00:07:58.038 JOSHUA GUNN: Yeah, or in creative writing 00:07:58.038 --> 00:08:00.530 class students will be like, this is really deep. 00:08:05.135 --> 00:08:06.010 ELIZABETH CHOE: Yeah. 00:08:06.010 --> 00:08:09.460 But then to be able to be there as an instructor and say, OK. 00:08:09.460 --> 00:08:10.464 Why do you think that? 00:08:10.464 --> 00:08:11.630 CHRIS BOEBEL: Yeah, exactly. 00:08:11.630 --> 00:08:12.850 Why is it good? 00:08:12.850 --> 00:08:13.550 Why is it deep? 00:08:13.550 --> 00:08:14.972 Why didn't you like it? 00:08:14.972 --> 00:08:16.680 ELIZABETH CHOE: Questions that drive them 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:20.650 to give a more tangible answer. 00:08:20.650 --> 00:08:24.090 That's really important in the live discussion. 00:08:24.090 --> 00:08:26.430 And it's important, I think, to have it in real time. 00:08:26.430 --> 00:08:28.390 Which is why I don't know how you 00:08:28.390 --> 00:08:31.120 can scale this experience up. 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:32.690 If you offer this as an online class, 00:08:32.690 --> 00:08:34.880 for instance, I guess you could have forums where 00:08:34.880 --> 00:08:36.880 students critique each other. 00:08:36.880 --> 00:08:41.510 But again, without the guidance of someone who's practiced it. 00:08:41.510 --> 00:08:42.400 That limits you. 00:08:42.400 --> 00:08:45.180 And then someone who responds like, 00:08:45.180 --> 00:08:48.430 why do you think this was deep? 00:08:48.430 --> 00:08:51.406 The next day, you sort of lose that momentum. 00:08:51.406 --> 00:08:53.280 GEORGE ZAIDAN: I mean, the really great thing 00:08:53.280 --> 00:08:56.840 is when this sort of stuff happens on set. 00:08:56.840 --> 00:08:59.490 Like when we were shooting the episode about the exploding 00:08:59.490 --> 00:09:02.632 wire and our student host got to see you, 00:09:02.632 --> 00:09:04.090 me, and the director of photography 00:09:04.090 --> 00:09:06.590 get into a fight about why we thought the framing was wrong. 00:09:06.590 --> 00:09:08.154 And I mean, it was literally like, 00:09:08.154 --> 00:09:09.570 what do you think of this framing? 00:09:09.570 --> 00:09:10.700 I hate it. 00:09:10.700 --> 00:09:11.292 Why? 00:09:11.292 --> 00:09:13.500 Because it looks like an episode of Home Improvement? 00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:15.250 Like an actual episode of Home Improvement 00:09:15.250 --> 00:09:18.972 or the show that they were parodying in Home Improvement? 00:09:18.972 --> 00:09:19.930 No, the crappy version. 00:09:19.930 --> 00:09:20.160 OK. 00:09:20.160 --> 00:09:21.701 Well, let's figure out how to fix it. 00:09:21.701 --> 00:09:24.120 Like that's the kind of discussion that happens on set. 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.619 ELIZABETH CHOE: And that is so much more helpful for someone 00:09:26.619 --> 00:09:31.260 to see than sometimes people struggle with framing. 00:09:31.260 --> 00:09:33.030 Here are some tips. 00:09:33.030 --> 00:09:37.070 Try to put the people in this framing. 00:09:37.070 --> 00:09:39.410 It might be more engaging. 00:09:39.410 --> 00:09:42.110 That's sort of how media things are presented right now. 00:09:42.110 --> 00:09:44.140 But to see like George and me fight, 00:09:44.140 --> 00:09:45.449 is one, way more entertaining. 00:09:45.449 --> 00:09:46.615 JOSHUA GUNN: I'm sure it is. 00:09:46.615 --> 00:09:49.360 ELIZABETH CHOE: But two, I think like she probably took 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:53.720 a lot more out of that than watching a lecture series.