WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.420 align:middle line:84% The following content is provided under a Creative 00:00:02.420 --> 00:00:03.630 align:middle line:90% Commons license. 00:00:03.630 --> 00:00:06.050 align:middle line:84% Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:06.050 --> 00:00:09.870 align:middle line:84% continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 00:00:09.870 --> 00:00:12.620 align:middle line:84% To make a donation or to view additional materials 00:00:12.620 --> 00:00:16.520 align:middle line:84% from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:16.520 --> 00:00:19.965 align:middle line:90% at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:19.965 --> 00:00:21.090 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: I don't know. 00:00:21.090 --> 00:00:22.757 align:middle line:84% I thought about telling you a little bit 00:00:22.757 --> 00:00:24.120 align:middle line:90% of how I got into this stuff. 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.735 align:middle line:84% But I grew up on Cape Cod, in Falmouth. 00:00:27.735 --> 00:00:34.160 align:middle line:84% And I had really no exposure to jazz at all. 00:00:34.160 --> 00:00:36.620 align:middle line:84% When I was a kid, other than the stray 00:00:36.620 --> 00:00:39.440 align:middle line:84% stuff that I heard here and there. 00:00:39.440 --> 00:00:41.480 align:middle line:84% But I did have a high school band director 00:00:41.480 --> 00:00:43.670 align:middle line:90% who was Maynard Ferguson. 00:00:43.670 --> 00:00:46.650 align:middle line:84% And I don't think he really liked jazz that much at all. 00:00:46.650 --> 00:00:49.700 align:middle line:84% I think he just liked the trumpet playing. 00:00:49.700 --> 00:00:53.720 align:middle line:84% And so he would have us attempt to play these Maynard 00:00:53.720 --> 00:00:57.290 align:middle line:84% charts, which were way out of the range of most high school 00:00:57.290 --> 00:00:59.790 align:middle line:90% trumpet players. 00:00:59.790 --> 00:01:01.630 align:middle line:84% I remember listening to those records. 00:01:01.630 --> 00:01:02.850 align:middle line:90% And I played piano. 00:01:02.850 --> 00:01:04.080 align:middle line:90% And I also played drums. 00:01:04.080 --> 00:01:07.050 align:middle line:84% So I would learn the drum parts and the piano parts. 00:01:07.050 --> 00:01:08.760 align:middle line:90% I would accentuate the drums. 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:14.120 align:middle line:84% And I remember, I guess it was a fortuitous accident I had. 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:18.620 align:middle line:84% I got a hold of the Maynard chart on the internet. 00:01:18.620 --> 00:01:22.130 align:middle line:84% And I saw that it was composed by this guy, Herbie Hancock. 00:01:22.130 --> 00:01:24.620 align:middle line:84% And I didn't know who Herbie Hancock was. 00:01:24.620 --> 00:01:27.500 align:middle line:84% But I noticed as I flipped through the record bins 00:01:27.500 --> 00:01:31.310 align:middle line:84% in the record store, which has bins, that there was a Herbie 00:01:31.310 --> 00:01:32.570 align:middle line:90% Hancock section. 00:01:32.570 --> 00:01:36.110 align:middle line:84% So I thought, well, it must be-- yeah, maybe it's the same guy. 00:01:36.110 --> 00:01:40.190 align:middle line:84% And maybe-- maybe I should check this out, 00:01:40.190 --> 00:01:42.790 align:middle line:84% see if there's a Herbie recording of "Chameleon," 00:01:42.790 --> 00:01:43.480 align:middle line:90% you know? 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:46.060 align:middle line:84% So I assume most people here have 00:01:46.060 --> 00:01:49.417 align:middle line:84% heard that record one way or another, and Head 00:01:49.417 --> 00:01:50.000 align:middle line:90% Hunters, yeah. 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:52.280 align:middle line:84% So I didn't know anything about Head Hunters 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:56.580 align:middle line:84% until probably 1975 or '76 or whatever. 00:01:56.580 --> 00:01:58.130 align:middle line:84% And so I brought Head Hunters home. 00:01:58.130 --> 00:02:04.410 align:middle line:84% And it was a revelation from on high for me. 00:02:04.410 --> 00:02:06.830 align:middle line:84% And so that was how I got into jazz, you know? 00:02:06.830 --> 00:02:09.440 align:middle line:84% And probably within a year or two of that, 00:02:09.440 --> 00:02:11.810 align:middle line:84% I remember getting a hold of some articles 00:02:11.810 --> 00:02:13.220 align:middle line:90% and books on Herbie. 00:02:13.220 --> 00:02:15.200 align:middle line:84% And I remember reading this thing where 00:02:15.200 --> 00:02:17.060 align:middle line:84% he said, the way that he learned to play 00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:21.770 align:middle line:84% jazz was by transcribing and that he thought 00:02:21.770 --> 00:02:24.045 align:middle line:84% it was important to write down solos in order 00:02:24.045 --> 00:02:25.880 align:middle line:90% to remember them. 00:02:25.880 --> 00:02:28.292 align:middle line:84% So I remember, again, I had no clue. 00:02:28.292 --> 00:02:29.750 align:middle line:84% My high school band director didn't 00:02:29.750 --> 00:02:32.910 align:middle line:84% know how to guide me or anything like that. 00:02:32.910 --> 00:02:35.580 align:middle line:84% And I just remember thinking to myself, 00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:37.010 align:middle line:84% well, if this is how he learned, I 00:02:37.010 --> 00:02:38.420 align:middle line:90% guess this is what I need to do. 00:02:38.420 --> 00:02:41.570 align:middle line:84% I guess I need to get a hold of some solos. 00:02:41.570 --> 00:02:44.390 align:middle line:84% And I figured, well, I'll start with some Herbie solos, which 00:02:44.390 --> 00:02:46.260 align:middle line:90% wasn't the easiest thing to do. 00:02:46.260 --> 00:02:49.790 align:middle line:84% But anyway, to make a long story lousy, over the years, 00:02:49.790 --> 00:02:51.947 align:middle line:84% it was how I learned how to transcribe. 00:02:51.947 --> 00:02:53.030 align:middle line:90% I was classically trained. 00:02:53.030 --> 00:02:55.250 align:middle line:84% But I didn't really have any jazz lessons. 00:02:55.250 --> 00:02:59.940 align:middle line:84% There wasn't anybody around that was teaching that stuff. 00:02:59.940 --> 00:03:02.820 align:middle line:84% So in the course of, I guess, my development, 00:03:02.820 --> 00:03:05.970 align:middle line:84% learning about other, as we all do with jazz, 00:03:05.970 --> 00:03:08.400 align:middle line:84% we learn who played with who, and composed, and that guy. 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:09.930 align:middle line:90% And who did that guy listen to? 00:03:09.930 --> 00:03:12.150 align:middle line:90% And go listen to that guy. 00:03:12.150 --> 00:03:15.540 align:middle line:84% So coming across Miles, and then Miles and then Miles and Gil 00:03:15.540 --> 00:03:16.560 align:middle line:90% things. 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:20.430 align:middle line:84% And I guess somewhere in there, I always had a taste for, 00:03:20.430 --> 00:03:23.430 align:middle line:84% even way back in those Maynard Ferguson charts, 00:03:23.430 --> 00:03:27.270 align:middle line:84% had a taste for orchestration and instrumental combinations 00:03:27.270 --> 00:03:28.500 align:middle line:90% and stuff like that. 00:03:28.500 --> 00:03:35.120 align:middle line:84% And when I heard the Gil Evans things, like a lot of people, 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:37.030 align:middle line:84% I was just like, what is this stuff? 00:03:37.030 --> 00:03:38.790 align:middle line:90% And how do you get that sound? 00:03:38.790 --> 00:03:40.800 align:middle line:84% What is he doing there, you know? 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:44.070 align:middle line:84% So that was the beginnings of me. 00:03:44.070 --> 00:03:46.470 align:middle line:84% By the time I seriously engaged with this stuff, 00:03:46.470 --> 00:03:48.948 align:middle line:84% I was pretty well into knowledge. 00:03:48.948 --> 00:03:51.300 align:middle line:84% I started trying to pick away at voicings. 00:03:51.300 --> 00:03:53.910 align:middle line:84% And you just quickly find, I'm not 00:03:53.910 --> 00:03:55.170 align:middle line:90% sure what instrument that is. 00:03:55.170 --> 00:03:57.640 align:middle line:84% And I don't know if I can hear that or not. 00:03:57.640 --> 00:04:01.560 align:middle line:84% And so I remember reading this thing where Bill Dobbins talked 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:05.370 align:middle line:84% about, for him, Claire Fisher was this benchmark. 00:04:05.370 --> 00:04:08.400 align:middle line:84% He would try to transcribe Claire Fisher charts. 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.620 align:middle line:84% And he said, every year or so, I'd 00:04:10.620 --> 00:04:13.098 align:middle line:84% pull out a couple that I liked and try to pick them off. 00:04:13.098 --> 00:04:14.640 align:middle line:84% And I thought, OK, I'm not ready yet. 00:04:14.640 --> 00:04:18.089 align:middle line:84% I've got to go transcribe some of this stuff first, you know? 00:04:18.089 --> 00:04:19.510 align:middle line:84% Then he'd come back a year later. 00:04:19.510 --> 00:04:22.440 align:middle line:84% So I guess the Gil thing was something like that for me, 00:04:22.440 --> 00:04:25.890 align:middle line:84% in the sense that the first two or three that I did 00:04:25.890 --> 00:04:27.900 align:middle line:84% was probably over four or five years. 00:04:27.900 --> 00:04:31.200 align:middle line:84% And sometimes, you come back a year later. 00:04:31.200 --> 00:04:33.180 align:middle line:84% And you've transcribed other things. 00:04:33.180 --> 00:04:34.080 align:middle line:90% You played more gigs. 00:04:34.080 --> 00:04:37.530 align:middle line:84% You've done other stuff and trained your ears more. 00:04:37.530 --> 00:04:41.310 align:middle line:84% And how could I not have heard that, you know what I mean? 00:04:41.310 --> 00:04:47.850 align:middle line:84% So that was also a natural part of the process, just 00:04:47.850 --> 00:04:52.470 align:middle line:90% revising things as I went along. 00:04:52.470 --> 00:04:58.230 align:middle line:84% So I did that through, I guess that took me up through the mid 00:04:58.230 --> 00:05:01.930 align:middle line:84% to late 80's or so when I was in graduate school. 00:05:01.930 --> 00:05:06.150 align:middle line:84% I had a teacher who was really into Gil studied at University 00:05:06.150 --> 00:05:09.690 align:middle line:84% of Miami with Ron Miller, who was really into modal stuff 00:05:09.690 --> 00:05:11.250 align:middle line:90% Marcus mentioned, modal stuff. 00:05:11.250 --> 00:05:15.260 align:middle line:84% Ronnie's was unbelievable to me, that, if you're 00:05:15.260 --> 00:05:20.170 align:middle line:84% into the Herbie, Ron, and Tony Wayne group, 00:05:20.170 --> 00:05:22.090 align:middle line:84% Ronnie's explanations of that stuff 00:05:22.090 --> 00:05:26.410 align:middle line:84% are the most coherent and logical explanations 00:05:26.410 --> 00:05:28.990 align:middle line:84% of that music that I've ever seen or heard, 00:05:28.990 --> 00:05:32.770 align:middle line:84% to the point where I think everything else is just 00:05:32.770 --> 00:05:34.750 align:middle line:84% blind attempts at trying to explain 00:05:34.750 --> 00:05:36.430 align:middle line:90% what's going on in that music. 00:05:36.430 --> 00:05:39.370 align:middle line:84% But Ronnie, one of the things that-- 00:05:39.370 --> 00:05:41.710 align:middle line:84% I was talking to him about transcribing Herbie. 00:05:41.710 --> 00:05:46.500 align:middle line:84% And he said, man, you got to go get Ravel's Valses Nobles et 00:05:46.500 --> 00:05:48.910 align:middle line:90% Sentimentales and play that. 00:05:48.910 --> 00:05:51.010 align:middle line:84% You'll hear those early voices, you know? 00:05:51.010 --> 00:05:53.200 align:middle line:84% And so I went to the music library 00:05:53.200 --> 00:05:55.120 align:middle line:84% and signed out Valses Nobles et Sentimentales 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:57.370 align:middle line:84% and spent the next hour picking away 00:05:57.370 --> 00:05:59.290 align:middle line:90% at the first five bars of that. 00:05:59.290 --> 00:06:02.402 align:middle line:84% And every time I finally got a voice, I said, 00:06:02.402 --> 00:06:03.610 align:middle line:90% wow, that sounds like Herbie. 00:06:03.610 --> 00:06:05.235 align:middle line:84% Wow, that sounds like Herbie, you know? 00:06:05.235 --> 00:06:08.750 align:middle line:84% And you start hearing all this stuff. 00:06:08.750 --> 00:06:12.340 align:middle line:84% So that was some of my development, too. 00:06:12.340 --> 00:06:15.550 align:middle line:84% With the Gil thing, so I guess it was just, 00:06:15.550 --> 00:06:18.550 align:middle line:84% initially, I wanted to play some of the ballads 00:06:18.550 --> 00:06:20.127 align:middle line:90% as solo piano things. 00:06:20.127 --> 00:06:22.210 align:middle line:84% And so it was figuring out most of what was there. 00:06:22.210 --> 00:06:24.220 align:middle line:84% And then, how could you crunch it down 00:06:24.220 --> 00:06:26.590 align:middle line:84% to fit it under two hands and still get 00:06:26.590 --> 00:06:28.780 align:middle line:84% the essence of the chart and the counter lines 00:06:28.780 --> 00:06:30.410 align:middle line:90% and that kind of thing? 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:32.590 align:middle line:84% And of course, for me, anyway, I think 00:06:32.590 --> 00:06:34.510 align:middle line:84% for most people who are into Gil, 00:06:34.510 --> 00:06:36.550 align:middle line:90% the counterpoint is a big thing. 00:06:36.550 --> 00:06:41.350 align:middle line:84% When I look back at the people that I really 00:06:41.350 --> 00:06:47.750 align:middle line:84% liked, whether it's Herbie or Clare Fischer or Gil or Alan 00:06:47.750 --> 00:06:54.320 align:middle line:84% Broadbent on the West Coast, all those players, later on, Jim 00:06:54.320 --> 00:06:57.530 align:middle line:84% McNeil and Maria Schneider, they all 00:06:57.530 --> 00:07:02.130 align:middle line:84% have all this counter stuff, all this counter, what's going on, 00:07:02.130 --> 00:07:06.000 align:middle line:84% even Oliver Nelson stuff that I remember listening to. 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:10.470 align:middle line:84% So-- and Duke Ellington, of course, I had Duke in there. 00:07:10.470 --> 00:07:12.953 align:middle line:84% They all have that thing where they go beyond. 00:07:12.953 --> 00:07:15.120 align:middle line:84% Mark was telling me, some of the stuff they studied, 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:18.900 align:middle line:84% they go beyond that basic four-part block harmonization 00:07:18.900 --> 00:07:19.470 align:middle line:90% thing. 00:07:19.470 --> 00:07:22.140 align:middle line:84% And at least some of them, they're 00:07:22.140 --> 00:07:24.150 align:middle line:84% still dealing with bar harmonization. 00:07:24.150 --> 00:07:27.720 align:middle line:84% But there's lines within that that are moving. 00:07:27.720 --> 00:07:30.510 align:middle line:84% Others have more overt counter lines 00:07:30.510 --> 00:07:32.730 align:middle line:84% that move at different rhythms and stuff like that-- 00:07:32.730 --> 00:07:34.110 align:middle line:90% and a true counterpoint. 00:07:34.110 --> 00:07:37.140 align:middle line:84% But I guess part of what interested me in Gil's music 00:07:37.140 --> 00:07:39.270 align:middle line:84% was not only the sound combination, 00:07:39.270 --> 00:07:42.530 align:middle line:84% but also that counterpoint type of thing. 00:07:42.530 --> 00:07:44.383 align:middle line:90% That was a big thing. 00:07:44.383 --> 00:07:46.550 align:middle line:84% I don't know if somebody consciously thought of that 00:07:46.550 --> 00:07:47.050 align:middle line:90% at first. 00:07:47.050 --> 00:07:50.530 align:middle line:84% It's just, like a lot of us, probably, oh, that sounds cool. 00:07:50.530 --> 00:07:51.620 align:middle line:90% I want to figure that out. 00:07:51.620 --> 00:07:53.750 align:middle line:84% And then, later on, you come to the reason 00:07:53.750 --> 00:07:56.080 align:middle line:90% why you thought of this. 00:07:56.080 --> 00:08:02.060 align:middle line:84% So anyway, in the last 15 years or so, 00:08:02.060 --> 00:08:04.850 align:middle line:84% I started transcribing more and more of these things. 00:08:04.850 --> 00:08:08.603 align:middle line:84% And as I did my doctoral work at NYU, and in short, 00:08:08.603 --> 00:08:10.270 align:middle line:84% I was studying with Jim McNeely and came 00:08:10.270 --> 00:08:12.580 align:middle line:90% to doing my dissertation. 00:08:12.580 --> 00:08:18.190 align:middle line:84% And everybody was writing 12 tone pieces for orchestra 00:08:18.190 --> 00:08:19.060 align:middle line:90% and analyzing them. 00:08:19.060 --> 00:08:21.610 align:middle line:84% And I kind of thought, I'm not sure the world 00:08:21.610 --> 00:08:26.410 align:middle line:84% needs another 12 tone piece for my analysis of how I compose. 00:08:26.410 --> 00:08:29.330 align:middle line:84% So I wanted to do something that I thought 00:08:29.330 --> 00:08:33.289 align:middle line:84% would be a contribution that other people can learn from 00:08:33.289 --> 00:08:38.179 align:middle line:84% and wanted to do something of value 00:08:38.179 --> 00:08:40.242 align:middle line:84% beyond just me getting a degree, you know? 00:08:40.242 --> 00:08:42.200 align:middle line:84% And I actually had to jump through a few hoops. 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:44.930 align:middle line:84% But the book was my doctoral dissertation. 00:08:44.930 --> 00:08:48.480 align:middle line:84% That's why the thing is so thorough, methodical and stuff. 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:52.720 align:middle line:84% And I was very, very fortunate that I met Hans Gruber 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:55.660 align:middle line:90% at an IAJE conference. 00:08:55.660 --> 00:08:57.670 align:middle line:84% And Ronnie Miller, my former teacher, 00:08:57.670 --> 00:08:59.320 align:middle line:90% had just published with him. 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:00.900 align:middle line:90% And Jim McNeely did. 00:09:00.900 --> 00:09:02.860 align:middle line:84% All right, so show him your manuscript. 00:09:02.860 --> 00:09:05.280 align:middle line:84% And I was hearing all these stories of guys 00:09:05.280 --> 00:09:06.530 align:middle line:90% trying to get books published. 00:09:06.530 --> 00:09:08.155 align:middle line:84% And it takes years and years and years. 00:09:08.155 --> 00:09:10.630 align:middle line:84% And you never hear back from publisher submissions 00:09:10.630 --> 00:09:11.180 align:middle line:90% and stuff. 00:09:11.180 --> 00:09:13.038 align:middle line:84% And I said to Ronnie, it's not even done. 00:09:13.038 --> 00:09:14.830 align:middle line:84% I want to get the first couple of chapters. 00:09:14.830 --> 00:09:16.030 align:middle line:90% Well, show it to him anyway. 00:09:16.030 --> 00:09:19.392 align:middle line:84% Maybe he can tell you what you need 00:09:19.392 --> 00:09:21.850 align:middle line:84% to do to make it a little more commercial when you're done, 00:09:21.850 --> 00:09:22.450 align:middle line:90% you know? 00:09:22.450 --> 00:09:25.042 align:middle line:84% And I'm still not getting it I said, well, man, I've 00:09:25.042 --> 00:09:26.750 align:middle line:84% kind of been thinking about that already. 00:09:26.750 --> 00:09:27.875 align:middle line:90% I think I'm good with that. 00:09:27.875 --> 00:09:29.380 align:middle line:90% Go see him anyway! 00:09:29.380 --> 00:09:30.820 align:middle line:90% So I went to see him. 00:09:30.820 --> 00:09:33.130 align:middle line:84% And he made an appointment with me. 00:09:33.130 --> 00:09:36.160 align:middle line:84% And we finally sat down like a day later. 00:09:36.160 --> 00:09:38.260 align:middle line:84% And he looked at it for about 10 minutes 00:09:38.260 --> 00:09:39.340 align:middle line:90% and didn't say anything. 00:09:39.340 --> 00:09:42.230 align:middle line:84% And finally, he looks up and says, I'd like to publish this. 00:09:42.230 --> 00:09:44.500 align:middle line:90% And I said, it's not even done. 00:09:44.500 --> 00:09:45.670 align:middle line:90% It's halfway done. 00:09:45.670 --> 00:09:47.840 align:middle line:90% He says, well, here's my email. 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:48.590 align:middle line:90% Here's my address. 00:09:48.590 --> 00:09:50.165 align:middle line:84% You let me know when you finished it. 00:09:50.165 --> 00:09:52.040 align:middle line:84% I've always wanted to do a book on Gil Evans. 00:09:52.040 --> 00:09:55.430 align:middle line:84% And so I went through none of the-- 00:09:55.430 --> 00:09:58.310 align:middle line:84% blessed to not have gone through any of the baloney 00:09:58.310 --> 00:10:00.500 align:middle line:84% that everybody told me you would go through 00:10:00.500 --> 00:10:01.520 align:middle line:90% to get a book published. 00:10:01.520 --> 00:10:04.160 align:middle line:84% And then I'm sure I would again because since then, Hans 00:10:04.160 --> 00:10:05.390 align:middle line:90% has passed away. 00:10:05.390 --> 00:10:07.670 align:middle line:90% And that company is not really-- 00:10:07.670 --> 00:10:10.400 align:middle line:84% he was a musician's guy and really 00:10:10.400 --> 00:10:13.760 align:middle line:84% wanted to spend money on copyright permissions 00:10:13.760 --> 00:10:16.968 align:middle line:90% and stuff like that. 00:10:16.968 --> 00:10:17.760 align:middle line:90% That was the thing. 00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:20.490 align:middle line:84% And I know the people who have taken over now 00:10:20.490 --> 00:10:21.750 align:middle line:90% have backed off of that. 00:10:21.750 --> 00:10:24.030 align:middle line:84% They don't really want to sink that kind of money 00:10:24.030 --> 00:10:25.530 align:middle line:90% into the book now. 00:10:25.530 --> 00:10:27.150 align:middle line:84% So I don't know where he would go. 00:10:27.150 --> 00:10:29.970 align:middle line:84% But I was fortunate to get that book. 00:10:29.970 --> 00:10:32.160 align:middle line:84% And when I published it, I had put so much time 00:10:32.160 --> 00:10:34.620 align:middle line:84% in that I didn't want to edit out all that stuff 00:10:34.620 --> 00:10:37.150 align:middle line:84% that I did for the methodology, go back through and say, 00:10:37.150 --> 00:10:37.680 align:middle line:90% what can go? 00:10:37.680 --> 00:10:42.180 align:middle line:84% So he published it as it was, which I was glad for. 00:10:42.180 --> 00:10:48.630 align:middle line:84% So in the course of doing my research, I happened to-- 00:10:48.630 --> 00:10:51.570 align:middle line:84% I'm trying to think of how it even came about now. 00:10:51.570 --> 00:10:55.170 align:middle line:84% I guess I used to go down to King Brand and buy score paper. 00:10:55.170 --> 00:10:56.760 align:middle line:84% And I mentioned to one of the guys 00:10:56.760 --> 00:10:58.980 align:middle line:84% there that I transcribed Gil's stuff. 00:10:58.980 --> 00:11:05.100 align:middle line:84% And they were doing a concert for Bill Russo's Chicago Jazz 00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:05.640 align:middle line:90% Orchestra. 00:11:05.640 --> 00:11:07.780 align:middle line:84% They were doing Sketches of Spain. 00:11:07.780 --> 00:11:10.840 align:middle line:84% And so he said, you got any Sketches of Spain stuff? 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:11.430 align:middle line:90% And I said no. 00:11:11.430 --> 00:11:14.550 align:middle line:84% And he said, oh, we really need it three weeks from now. 00:11:14.550 --> 00:11:15.810 align:middle line:90% Can you do one? 00:11:15.810 --> 00:11:17.810 align:middle line:84% And I show him some of my other stuff. 00:11:17.810 --> 00:11:19.390 align:middle line:84% So yeah, I'd do Will 'O the Wisp. 00:11:19.390 --> 00:11:20.990 align:middle line:90% I did it for them. 00:11:20.990 --> 00:11:24.040 align:middle line:84% And then in the course of that, King Brand, 00:11:24.040 --> 00:11:26.190 align:middle line:84% they had to contact with Anita Evans, who 00:11:26.190 --> 00:11:28.940 align:middle line:90% was Bill's second wife, this. 00:11:28.940 --> 00:11:31.550 align:middle line:84% And so they put me in touch with her. 00:11:31.550 --> 00:11:33.300 align:middle line:84% And so when I went to do the dissertation, 00:11:33.300 --> 00:11:34.300 align:middle line:90% I went and met with her. 00:11:34.300 --> 00:11:38.120 align:middle line:84% And they supplied me with a couple of sketches 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:40.264 align:middle line:84% that I have in the book, the Will O' 00:11:40.264 --> 00:11:44.150 align:middle line:84% the Wisp sketch and actually one from My Ship 00:11:44.150 --> 00:11:49.185 align:middle line:84% and another one for Bess You is My Woman, which, 00:11:49.185 --> 00:11:51.560 align:middle line:84% I can't remember if I put that sketch in the book or not. 00:11:51.560 --> 00:11:54.880 align:middle line:84% But I know I did the Will O' the Wisp for them. 00:11:54.880 --> 00:11:57.340 align:middle line:84% But some of them, if you looked at the book at all 00:11:57.340 --> 00:12:00.670 align:middle line:84% and you saw the Will O' the Wisp sketch, it's really skeletal. 00:12:00.670 --> 00:12:03.460 align:middle line:84% The My Ship one and the Bess one were 00:12:03.460 --> 00:12:06.460 align:middle line:84% kind of a grand staff piano chart with a few instruments 00:12:06.460 --> 00:12:08.890 align:middle line:90% marked in, some counter lines. 00:12:08.890 --> 00:12:11.680 align:middle line:84% And actually, I guess that gives me a good place 00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:14.050 align:middle line:90% to start with My Ship. 00:12:14.050 --> 00:12:19.150 align:middle line:84% What surprised me at first was that Gil 00:12:19.150 --> 00:12:21.760 align:middle line:84% had written the lyrics of the tune 00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:26.770 align:middle line:84% across the top of the grand staff chart. 00:12:26.770 --> 00:12:32.950 align:middle line:84% And over the years, I was always a guy who read a lot of stuff. 00:12:32.950 --> 00:12:35.020 align:middle line:84% And I always thought it was important to find out 00:12:35.020 --> 00:12:38.960 align:middle line:84% about musicians' lives and what they did and how they developed 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:40.210 align:middle line:90% and how they lived day to day. 00:12:40.210 --> 00:12:42.670 align:middle line:84% And I remember reading this Lester Young thing where 00:12:42.670 --> 00:12:44.530 align:middle line:84% he said, when you play a ballad, you should 00:12:44.530 --> 00:12:46.420 align:middle line:90% know the lyrics to the tune. 00:12:46.420 --> 00:12:49.360 align:middle line:84% You should think about the lyrics while you play. 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.190 align:middle line:84% And it always struck me that, when 00:12:51.190 --> 00:12:54.590 align:middle line:84% you listen to Miles play ballad, that he had 00:12:54.590 --> 00:12:57.040 align:middle line:90% to know those lyrics because-- 00:12:57.040 --> 00:12:58.930 align:middle line:84% and I was fortunate to, again, that I 00:12:58.930 --> 00:13:02.020 align:middle line:84% had a good teacher in that regard in grad school, Fitz 00:13:02.020 --> 00:13:03.430 align:middle line:90% Amagio down in Miami. 00:13:03.430 --> 00:13:05.860 align:middle line:84% He was an excellent vocal coach, in addition 00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:07.840 align:middle line:90% to being a good pianist. 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:13.510 align:middle line:84% And he used to talk to the vocalists about, 00:13:13.510 --> 00:13:18.800 align:middle line:84% that when you sing a melody, that-- 00:13:18.800 --> 00:13:21.470 align:middle line:84% I think it's just-- the meaning of the blues or something, 00:13:21.470 --> 00:13:23.885 align:middle line:84% that you don't sing, [SINGING] da, da, da, 00:13:23.885 --> 00:13:26.450 align:middle line:90% the meaning of the blues. 00:13:26.450 --> 00:13:28.940 align:middle line:84% You would say, you emphasize meaning, 00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:30.140 align:middle line:90% or you emphasize blues. 00:13:30.140 --> 00:13:32.750 align:middle line:90% But you don't emphasize, of. 00:13:32.750 --> 00:13:34.640 align:middle line:84% And when that goes to an instrumentalist, 00:13:34.640 --> 00:13:36.807 align:middle line:84% if you're a tenor player or a trumpet player playing 00:13:36.807 --> 00:13:38.330 align:middle line:84% a ballad, you think of those lyrics. 00:13:38.330 --> 00:13:41.450 align:middle line:84% And you don't play, [SINGING] doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, 00:13:41.450 --> 00:13:44.870 align:middle line:84% doo doo because you're emphasizing the word, of. 00:13:44.870 --> 00:13:47.000 align:middle line:84% And if anybody is singing along with you, 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:50.420 align:middle line:84% you're distorting the meaning of the lyric, you know? 00:13:50.420 --> 00:13:52.545 align:middle line:84% So that was always-- between the Lester Young thing 00:13:52.545 --> 00:13:53.962 align:middle line:84% and what Vince had taught me, that 00:13:53.962 --> 00:13:55.380 align:middle line:84% was always in the back of my head. 00:13:55.380 --> 00:13:57.950 align:middle line:84% And so by the time I saw the sketch for My Ship 00:13:57.950 --> 00:14:00.530 align:middle line:84% and I saw the lyrics at the top of the page, 00:14:00.530 --> 00:14:03.740 align:middle line:84% I thought, man, this is it, right here. 00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:08.210 align:middle line:84% This is what Miles is doing when he's playing a ballad. 00:14:08.210 --> 00:14:09.620 align:middle line:90% He's got this in his head. 00:14:09.620 --> 00:14:12.410 align:middle line:84% And that's why it sounds so sweet 00:14:12.410 --> 00:14:14.510 align:middle line:84% when he plays these things, and so logical, 00:14:14.510 --> 00:14:17.480 align:middle line:84% even when he takes off and does something that isn't 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:18.630 align:middle line:90% part of the original tune. 00:14:18.630 --> 00:14:22.890 align:middle line:84% It's still this thing where it just makes perfect sense, 00:14:22.890 --> 00:14:24.000 align:middle line:90% you know? 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.720 align:middle line:84% And I guess the other thing along those lines, 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:32.760 align:middle line:84% I guess for me, I'm a big believer in, 00:14:32.760 --> 00:14:35.310 align:middle line:84% I guess, believing in what you're doing. 00:14:35.310 --> 00:14:39.510 align:middle line:84% And there's a great interview with Bill Withers, 00:14:39.510 --> 00:14:41.790 align:middle line:84% of all people, on a Marcus Miller CD. 00:14:41.790 --> 00:14:43.680 align:middle line:84% And Bill Withers says, the way that I 00:14:43.680 --> 00:14:48.880 align:middle line:84% judge a tune is whether I wish I wrote it or not. 00:14:48.880 --> 00:14:52.260 align:middle line:84% And I think that was, for me, I was like, 00:14:52.260 --> 00:14:53.610 align:middle line:90% man, I wish I thought of that. 00:14:53.610 --> 00:14:55.890 align:middle line:84% I wish I was the one who did that. 00:14:55.890 --> 00:15:00.090 align:middle line:84% Even though you can't be, you're that passionate about it. 00:15:00.090 --> 00:15:03.498 align:middle line:84% And this is part of, I think, even those guys' playing it. 00:15:03.498 --> 00:15:05.040 align:middle line:84% And then when they played it, they've 00:15:05.040 --> 00:15:08.610 align:middle line:84% got that-- they're making that tune their own thing, you know? 00:15:08.610 --> 00:15:11.403 align:middle line:84% And in that sense, when they pick 00:15:11.403 --> 00:15:13.320 align:middle line:84% the tunes, when you read about how they picked 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.875 align:middle line:84% the tunes for Miles Ahead or whatever, 00:15:16.875 --> 00:15:18.750 align:middle line:84% as you'll find out later, some of these tunes 00:15:18.750 --> 00:15:20.310 align:middle line:90% were dog tunes to begin with. 00:15:20.310 --> 00:15:22.620 align:middle line:84% But they saw something in that tune 00:15:22.620 --> 00:15:25.920 align:middle line:84% or heard something in that tune that nobody else heard. 00:15:25.920 --> 00:15:28.530 align:middle line:84% And they were able to make that tune their own, in a way 00:15:28.530 --> 00:15:32.880 align:middle line:84% that even the original composer didn't necessarily hear. 00:15:32.880 --> 00:15:36.870 align:middle line:84% And I think that's one of the key things with Gil's writing 00:15:36.870 --> 00:15:41.840 align:middle line:84% and Miles's playing, is that they were able to see or hear 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:46.040 align:middle line:84% something in this music that transcended the original form 00:15:46.040 --> 00:15:49.880 align:middle line:84% or structure of the music, some expressive level that 00:15:49.880 --> 00:15:51.980 align:middle line:90% hadn't been brought out. 00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:55.670 align:middle line:84% So anyway, when we get to My Ship, 00:15:55.670 --> 00:15:58.542 align:middle line:90% I got a few copies of this. 00:15:58.542 --> 00:16:00.500 align:middle line:84% You're going to look on with each other, right? 00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:04.130 align:middle line:84% So I think we can pass a couple back. 00:16:04.130 --> 00:16:05.890 align:middle line:90% Anyway, we can share. 00:16:05.890 --> 00:16:08.420 align:middle line:90% These are concert key scores. 00:16:08.420 --> 00:16:14.422 align:middle line:84% So I think the next couple of minutes 00:16:14.422 --> 00:16:15.780 align:middle line:90% we can go up there and-- 00:16:15.780 --> 00:16:23.800 align:middle line:90% 00:16:23.800 --> 00:16:24.820 align:middle line:90% MARK HARVEY: Here we go. 00:16:24.820 --> 00:16:26.803 align:middle line:84% I guess that's part of the reason. 00:16:26.803 --> 00:16:27.470 align:middle line:90% You want to sit? 00:16:27.470 --> 00:16:31.067 align:middle line:90% 00:16:31.067 --> 00:16:32.650 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: One of the things that I 00:16:32.650 --> 00:16:36.610 align:middle line:84% did, this was actually the third one that I had ever 00:16:36.610 --> 00:16:37.420 align:middle line:90% transcribed. 00:16:37.420 --> 00:16:43.690 align:middle line:84% And back in the 80's, they had reissued this CD. 00:16:43.690 --> 00:16:46.360 align:middle line:84% But some of the tapes were in stereo, some were in mono. 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.580 align:middle line:84% So they had reissued it in stereo 00:16:48.580 --> 00:16:52.240 align:middle line:84% and hadn't used some of the original tapes 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.060 align:middle line:84% to splice together all new stuff. 00:16:55.060 --> 00:16:57.250 align:middle line:84% And then, later on, George Avakian 00:16:57.250 --> 00:17:00.560 align:middle line:84% put out another version that was all in mono, saying, 00:17:00.560 --> 00:17:02.440 align:middle line:84% well, we can't find the stereo master 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:05.230 align:middle line:84% for the original piece of the original tapes, you know? 00:17:05.230 --> 00:17:09.369 align:middle line:84% And so then, it sounded like there was one bass clarinet 00:17:09.369 --> 00:17:11.950 align:middle line:90% line in the TO version. 00:17:11.950 --> 00:17:13.780 align:middle line:84% And there was a different bass clarinet 00:17:13.780 --> 00:17:16.329 align:middle line:90% line in the Avakian version. 00:17:16.329 --> 00:17:19.750 align:middle line:84% It wasn't until they were starting to do the box set 00:17:19.750 --> 00:17:21.880 align:middle line:84% and put together a lot of the research-- 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.960 align:middle line:84% and the guy from King Brand was involved in that. 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:26.800 align:middle line:84% He was getting these tapes here and there 00:17:26.800 --> 00:17:28.060 align:middle line:90% as they put this together. 00:17:28.060 --> 00:17:30.920 align:middle line:84% And he showed me some of the session 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:32.780 align:middle line:90% lists of who played what. 00:17:32.780 --> 00:17:35.990 align:middle line:84% And I knew that there had been bass clarinet. 00:17:35.990 --> 00:17:39.020 align:middle line:84% But actually, three of the woodwind players 00:17:39.020 --> 00:17:41.600 align:middle line:84% at various times played bass clarinet. 00:17:41.600 --> 00:17:44.450 align:middle line:84% I think on Miles Ahead, it was actually three bass clarinets 00:17:44.450 --> 00:17:46.290 align:middle line:90% going at one time. 00:17:46.290 --> 00:17:50.720 align:middle line:84% So on this tune, it's, Lee Konitz played alto. 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:52.450 align:middle line:90% He played alto all the time. 00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:54.200 align:middle line:84% And then there were three woodwind players 00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:57.200 align:middle line:84% that, the first chair is a flute oboe clarinet 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:01.350 align:middle line:90% chair and some F I think, also. 00:18:01.350 --> 00:18:06.800 align:middle line:84% And the second chair is actually the most work. 00:18:06.800 --> 00:18:10.520 align:middle line:84% I think he does flute, alto flute, oboe, clarinet, 00:18:10.520 --> 00:18:12.560 align:middle line:90% and bass clarinet. 00:18:12.560 --> 00:18:15.080 align:middle line:84% I'm talking across the whole album now, all 10 tunes. 00:18:15.080 --> 00:18:20.810 align:middle line:84% And the last chair, it was the fourth chair here, 00:18:20.810 --> 00:18:26.150 align:middle line:84% was all bass clarinet, except, when I got hold of Gil's scores 00:18:26.150 --> 00:18:31.720 align:middle line:84% for a couple of the later tunes, apparently, 00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:33.280 align:middle line:84% only some guys could play alto flute. 00:18:33.280 --> 00:18:35.020 align:middle line:90% So he flopped a couple of-- 00:18:35.020 --> 00:18:38.470 align:middle line:84% having the last guy play alto flute on something 00:18:38.470 --> 00:18:40.330 align:middle line:84% so that another guy could play bass clarinet 00:18:40.330 --> 00:18:40.990 align:middle line:90% or something like that. 00:18:40.990 --> 00:18:43.450 align:middle line:84% It was an instrumentation change somewhere in The Meaning 00:18:43.450 --> 00:18:45.730 align:middle line:90% of The Blues/Lament. 00:18:45.730 --> 00:18:49.210 align:middle line:84% But really, it was only necessary 00:18:49.210 --> 00:18:54.190 align:middle line:84% because the particular people that they had on the session. 00:18:54.190 --> 00:18:57.610 align:middle line:84% So there's four woodwinds, Miles in the lead role, 00:18:57.610 --> 00:19:00.880 align:middle line:84% two horns, five trumpets on this. 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.220 align:middle line:84% The fifth trumpet kind of acts like a renegade. 00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:04.210 align:middle line:90% Sometimes he's double. 00:19:04.210 --> 00:19:06.340 align:middle line:84% In the first part, sometimes, he's cut loose. 00:19:06.340 --> 00:19:10.360 align:middle line:84% Sometimes he's playing the first part 00:19:10.360 --> 00:19:13.430 align:middle line:84% but with a different mute than the first player has. 00:19:13.430 --> 00:19:16.240 align:middle line:84% In the case of My Ship, I'll show you that in some pages 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:17.210 align:middle line:90% later on. 00:19:17.210 --> 00:19:21.310 align:middle line:84% And there's four trombones, tuba, string bass, percussion. 00:19:21.310 --> 00:19:24.940 align:middle line:84% It's obvious that Miles and Paul Chambers and Art 00:19:24.940 --> 00:19:27.280 align:middle line:84% Taylor were the weakest readers on this section 00:19:27.280 --> 00:19:29.230 align:middle line:90% by the way they fluffed stuff. 00:19:29.230 --> 00:19:31.520 align:middle line:84% And when there's written parts and stuff like that, 00:19:31.520 --> 00:19:32.450 align:middle line:90% they don't always-- 00:19:32.450 --> 00:19:35.480 align:middle line:84% on the other hand, especially Paul Chambers, 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:38.870 align:middle line:84% even when he totally blows something, 00:19:38.870 --> 00:19:42.320 align:middle line:84% what he plays instead is sometimes even better 00:19:42.320 --> 00:19:43.250 align:middle line:90% than what Gil wrote. 00:19:43.250 --> 00:19:44.955 align:middle line:84% And you just kind of shake your head 00:19:44.955 --> 00:19:47.330 align:middle line:84% and think, man, I don't how he couldn't read that figure. 00:19:47.330 --> 00:19:49.330 align:middle line:84% But on the other hand, what an ear this guy has. 00:19:49.330 --> 00:19:51.950 align:middle line:90% Blues for Pablo is like that. 00:19:51.950 --> 00:19:53.450 align:middle line:90% I've seen the score for that. 00:19:53.450 --> 00:19:55.370 align:middle line:90% And you look at the part. 00:19:55.370 --> 00:19:58.220 align:middle line:84% There's times when there's little octave things going 00:19:58.220 --> 00:20:00.680 align:middle line:84% from B flat to F to a high B flat. 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:03.560 align:middle line:84% And he's actually playing the wrong B flat both times. 00:20:03.560 --> 00:20:05.420 align:middle line:84% He's obviously trying to fake the line. 00:20:05.420 --> 00:20:07.580 align:middle line:84% But what he fakes is actually even better 00:20:07.580 --> 00:20:10.040 align:middle line:84% than what Gil had written in there. 00:20:10.040 --> 00:20:14.090 align:middle line:90% So they were good like that. 00:20:14.090 --> 00:20:16.610 align:middle line:84% So anyway, actually if you look at the intro, 00:20:16.610 --> 00:20:19.640 align:middle line:84% you can see, in this case, it's second trumpet that 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:21.620 align:middle line:90% has harmon mute. 00:20:21.620 --> 00:20:23.180 align:middle line:90% And all the others are in cups. 00:20:23.180 --> 00:20:25.940 align:middle line:84% And this is an octave unison line, basically 00:20:25.940 --> 00:20:28.880 align:middle line:84% two cups on the top box, two cups on the bottom. 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:32.270 align:middle line:84% And then harmon is doubling the top. 00:20:32.270 --> 00:20:34.275 align:middle line:84% Again, if I went back 15 years, I'm 00:20:34.275 --> 00:20:35.900 align:middle line:84% sitting there thinking, gee, it kind of 00:20:35.900 --> 00:20:37.460 align:middle line:90% sounds like harmon, kind of. 00:20:37.460 --> 00:20:39.253 align:middle line:84% And I remember also thinking, well, 00:20:39.253 --> 00:20:41.420 align:middle line:84% they must have only had four guys play on this chart 00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:43.730 align:middle line:84% because I can only hear four voices. 00:20:43.730 --> 00:20:44.870 align:middle line:90% But this is what it is. 00:20:44.870 --> 00:20:48.830 align:middle line:84% And I learned that when I saw the Blues for Pablo chart. 00:20:48.830 --> 00:20:50.640 align:middle line:84% I hadn't seen the score from My Ship. 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:53.690 align:middle line:84% But when I saw Blues for Pablo, I 00:20:53.690 --> 00:20:56.600 align:middle line:84% saw that originally, most of the ensemble 00:20:56.600 --> 00:20:58.970 align:middle line:90% passages were muted and cups. 00:20:58.970 --> 00:21:02.360 align:middle line:84% And the first part was doubled sometimes 00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:07.880 align:middle line:84% by second, sometimes by fifth, in unison but with harmon. 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:10.850 align:middle line:84% And when you go back and you listen, in the box set, 00:21:10.850 --> 00:21:13.070 align:middle line:84% you listen to the very first take of Blues for Pablo, 00:21:13.070 --> 00:21:14.180 align:middle line:90% it's all muted. 00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:15.867 align:middle line:90% It was obviously a second take. 00:21:15.867 --> 00:21:18.200 align:middle line:84% They must have said, hey, let's try these without mutes. 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:20.840 align:middle line:84% But you hear the guy in the harmon 00:21:20.840 --> 00:21:24.830 align:middle line:84% still in the harmon, along with the open four part section. 00:21:24.830 --> 00:21:26.360 align:middle line:90% So that's what clued me in. 00:21:26.360 --> 00:21:29.580 align:middle line:84% It must be why I'm only hearing four voices in My Ship 00:21:29.580 --> 00:21:32.400 align:middle line:84% and why I can't decide whether that first part is 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:34.950 align:middle line:84% cup or harmon because it's actually both. 00:21:34.950 --> 00:21:37.200 align:middle line:84% And you're hearing that blend of the two, you know? 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:40.170 align:middle line:84% So he was really innovative with things 00:21:40.170 --> 00:21:43.590 align:middle line:84% like that, just orchestrational things, 00:21:43.590 --> 00:21:48.870 align:middle line:84% not only using instruments that weren't common in a jazz 00:21:48.870 --> 00:21:52.920 align:middle line:84% ensemble at that time, but also instrumental combinations 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:55.680 align:middle line:84% and mutings and woodwind and mute combinations 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:57.580 align:middle line:84% and stuff that are really hip and very, 00:21:57.580 --> 00:21:59.040 align:middle line:90% very subtle, you know? 00:21:59.040 --> 00:22:03.000 align:middle line:84% And once I saw a couple of those things, 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.002 align:middle line:84% then I'd start to listen for things along the way. 00:22:06.002 --> 00:22:06.960 align:middle line:90% And you start noticing. 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.240 align:middle line:84% But you train your ear, in that sense, 00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:12.390 align:middle line:84% by first getting clued into a couple of things 00:22:12.390 --> 00:22:15.060 align:middle line:84% and then starting to notice, OK, it sounds like this, 00:22:15.060 --> 00:22:19.240 align:middle line:84% or this must be a similar thing, similar compilation. 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:21.580 align:middle line:84% The intro itself is actually from-- the tune 00:22:21.580 --> 00:22:25.900 align:middle line:84% is from a Kurt Weill musical called Lady in the Dark. 00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:28.450 align:middle line:84% The intro is from the original score. 00:22:28.450 --> 00:22:30.400 align:middle line:84% Really, what's Gil's in the intro 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:33.010 align:middle line:84% is the pedal tone and the tuba and trombone. 00:22:33.010 --> 00:22:39.130 align:middle line:84% And the case clarinet counter line is his also. 00:22:39.130 --> 00:22:41.830 align:middle line:84% And I think, in some ways, it really kind makes the intro, 00:22:41.830 --> 00:22:44.142 align:middle line:84% to hear that counterpoint climbing up 00:22:44.142 --> 00:22:45.100 align:middle line:90% from the bass clarinet. 00:22:45.100 --> 00:22:48.018 align:middle line:84% And especially, you put some bass clarinet. 00:22:48.018 --> 00:22:49.810 align:middle line:84% Sometimes, the bass clarinet in Gil's music 00:22:49.810 --> 00:22:51.130 align:middle line:90% is doubling the bass line. 00:22:51.130 --> 00:22:52.990 align:middle line:84% And it gets that sinister kind of sound. 00:22:52.990 --> 00:22:56.620 align:middle line:84% But other times, he's got it amped up here, climbing up 00:22:56.620 --> 00:22:58.510 align:middle line:90% into an extreme high register. 00:22:58.510 --> 00:23:01.900 align:middle line:84% And it takes on almost a flute-like quality to it, 00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:02.470 align:middle line:90% you know? 00:23:02.470 --> 00:23:04.960 align:middle line:84% And to me, that was an interesting sound, too. 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:07.720 align:middle line:84% The bass clarinet does get softer 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:09.580 align:middle line:84% as it goes up, unlike most instruments. 00:23:09.580 --> 00:23:13.300 align:middle line:84% But it also has a real different sound than that high register 00:23:13.300 --> 00:23:15.640 align:middle line:90% that it plays down low. 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:16.660 align:middle line:90% You want to play-- 00:23:16.660 --> 00:23:20.020 align:middle line:84% I brought the Broadway version for them to check out. 00:23:20.020 --> 00:23:22.250 align:middle line:84% And then we can maybe read through the score. 00:23:22.250 --> 00:23:25.210 align:middle line:84% And then if you have some questions, you can ask those, 00:23:25.210 --> 00:23:26.500 align:middle line:90% I guess. 00:23:26.500 --> 00:23:27.910 align:middle line:90% I'll tell you what track it is. 00:23:27.910 --> 00:23:30.571 align:middle line:90% 00:23:30.571 --> 00:23:33.750 align:middle line:90% It's track six. 00:23:33.750 --> 00:23:36.840 align:middle line:84% I think this recording was from the early 90's. 00:23:36.840 --> 00:23:39.060 align:middle line:84% It's a Broadway cast from Lady in the Dark. 00:23:39.060 --> 00:23:43.168 align:middle line:84% So you're hearing the tune in its original form 00:23:43.168 --> 00:23:44.460 align:middle line:90% as it is in the Broadway score. 00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:50.360 align:middle line:90% 00:23:50.360 --> 00:23:52.430 align:middle line:84% One of the interesting form things 00:23:52.430 --> 00:23:54.320 align:middle line:90% is it's an A, A, B, A tune. 00:23:54.320 --> 00:23:57.690 align:middle line:84% But Gil has three eight sections out front. 00:23:57.690 --> 00:24:02.060 align:middle line:84% And the first one is the ensemble without any bass. 00:24:02.060 --> 00:24:05.090 align:middle line:84% And sometimes, you hear, as a texture change, 00:24:05.090 --> 00:24:07.190 align:middle line:90% you hear ensemble without drums. 00:24:07.190 --> 00:24:09.710 align:middle line:84% But to me, the ensemble without the bass 00:24:09.710 --> 00:24:12.530 align:middle line:84% takes on this real orchestral kind of quality 00:24:12.530 --> 00:24:15.140 align:middle line:84% and really brings out the counterpoint 00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:16.190 align:middle line:90% in the bass line here. 00:24:16.190 --> 00:24:19.610 align:middle line:84% The bass clarinet and bass trombone and tuba 00:24:19.610 --> 00:24:21.140 align:middle line:90% are playing the bass line. 00:24:21.140 --> 00:24:23.900 align:middle line:84% And the way, even though they're moving, 00:24:23.900 --> 00:24:26.690 align:middle line:84% except for the second bar and the last bar of that section, 00:24:26.690 --> 00:24:30.680 align:middle line:84% they're moving same rhythm as the ensemble, 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:32.870 align:middle line:90% it's a lot of contrary motion. 00:24:32.870 --> 00:24:34.670 align:middle line:84% And then the second and 8 bars is 00:24:34.670 --> 00:24:37.310 align:middle line:84% a lot of actual counterpoint in the bass line there. 00:24:37.310 --> 00:24:40.640 align:middle line:84% And it's really cool how those voicings move. 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:43.010 align:middle line:84% And even the spacing of those voicings 00:24:43.010 --> 00:24:44.630 align:middle line:90% is also very interesting. 00:24:44.630 --> 00:24:48.140 align:middle line:84% And it's along the lines of a Bill Evans style re-harm, where 00:24:48.140 --> 00:24:51.300 align:middle line:84% there's a chord under every melody note, 00:24:51.300 --> 00:24:54.620 align:middle line:84% rather than the original changes of the tune. 00:24:54.620 --> 00:24:58.970 align:middle line:84% Then, at what I labeled B1 in the chart, 00:24:58.970 --> 00:25:01.190 align:middle line:84% that's where the more conventional, 00:25:01.190 --> 00:25:04.440 align:middle line:84% the original chord changes of the tune are sitting under 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:04.940 align:middle line:90% Miles's. 00:25:04.940 --> 00:25:08.120 align:middle line:84% And miles is playing two eight sections with that. 00:25:08.120 --> 00:25:13.040 align:middle line:84% And then the bridge, which is letter C, page five, that's 00:25:13.040 --> 00:25:16.280 align:middle line:84% where Gil has a little double-time melody that he's 00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:21.200 align:middle line:84% abstracted out of the original theme of the tune. 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:23.600 align:middle line:90% And that, to me, is classic Gil. 00:25:23.600 --> 00:25:25.760 align:middle line:84% I mean, he does this cool stuff with coming up 00:25:25.760 --> 00:25:29.090 align:middle line:84% with boppish lines that still imply, 00:25:29.090 --> 00:25:31.700 align:middle line:84% if you don't know the tune, if you listen, 00:25:31.700 --> 00:25:34.460 align:middle line:84% on the original recording, listen to the bridge melody 00:25:34.460 --> 00:25:36.110 align:middle line:84% and then try to remember that when 00:25:36.110 --> 00:25:40.070 align:middle line:84% you hear his double-time figure, it's a cool little bop 00:25:40.070 --> 00:25:42.980 align:middle line:84% line that you could envision Diz 'n Bird playing. 00:25:42.980 --> 00:25:47.360 align:middle line:84% And yet, it encompasses the melody. 00:25:47.360 --> 00:25:50.150 align:middle line:84% The same type of thing happens in Bess. 00:25:50.150 --> 00:25:52.510 align:middle line:84% If you checked out my analysis of Bess, 00:25:52.510 --> 00:25:54.510 align:middle line:84% there's a couple bars in the middle of the chart 00:25:54.510 --> 00:25:56.610 align:middle line:84% there where he's got this double-time thing that's 00:25:56.610 --> 00:25:57.540 align:middle line:90% a real boppish line. 00:25:57.540 --> 00:26:02.240 align:middle line:84% But the peaks and valleys in the line are the original note. 00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:07.340 align:middle line:90% 00:26:07.340 --> 00:26:09.620 align:middle line:84% Part of the changes that Bill made, 00:26:09.620 --> 00:26:13.700 align:middle line:84% besides the obvious one, the bridge that I pointed out, 00:26:13.700 --> 00:26:15.050 align:middle line:90% he used the intro as the ending. 00:26:15.050 --> 00:26:16.430 align:middle line:90% He comes back to the intro. 00:26:16.430 --> 00:26:19.700 align:middle line:84% And I always liked the idea that Miles never 00:26:19.700 --> 00:26:21.610 align:middle line:84% comes back to the tonic at the end of that. 00:26:21.610 --> 00:26:24.360 align:middle line:84% He just leaves that, leading tone hanging. 00:26:24.360 --> 00:26:26.840 align:middle line:84% And it's resolved more through the harmonies 00:26:26.840 --> 00:26:31.800 align:middle line:90% that he'll place in the outro. 00:26:31.800 --> 00:26:35.980 align:middle line:84% And the other thing, to me, there's a lot of-- 00:26:35.980 --> 00:26:40.260 align:middle line:84% in that version, there's a lot of ebb and flow to the tempo. 00:26:40.260 --> 00:26:43.860 align:middle line:84% But sometimes, to me, sometimes, it's over-dramatic. 00:26:43.860 --> 00:26:45.900 align:middle line:84% Sometimes it misses the point dramatically. 00:26:45.900 --> 00:26:50.010 align:middle line:84% I think them playing a steady tempo in Gil's chart, 00:26:50.010 --> 00:26:53.940 align:middle line:84% between how Gill rhythmically moves certain chords 00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.580 align:middle line:84% and how Miles delays certain notes, 00:26:56.580 --> 00:26:59.602 align:middle line:84% I think it actually adds more drama to the piece, too. 00:26:59.602 --> 00:27:01.560 align:middle line:84% So I think that's something also to listen for. 00:27:01.560 --> 00:27:04.420 align:middle line:90% 00:27:04.420 --> 00:27:07.600 align:middle line:84% In this version, I've got Miles's exact playing 00:27:07.600 --> 00:27:08.590 align:middle line:90% transcribed there. 00:27:08.590 --> 00:27:11.740 align:middle line:84% I also do a version of when I did a concert at CCRI. 00:27:11.740 --> 00:27:15.160 align:middle line:84% And in that case, I just gave the trumpet player 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:18.460 align:middle line:84% the original quarter note shift melody with the lyrics 00:27:18.460 --> 00:27:19.097 align:middle line:90% under it. 00:27:19.097 --> 00:27:20.680 align:middle line:84% And I gave it to Miles Price to study. 00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:23.200 align:middle line:84% But for the concert, I had to just read off 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:28.270 align:middle line:84% of a straight version of it and improvise its own thing. 00:27:28.270 --> 00:27:30.020 align:middle line:84% Do we want to go ahead and play that, or-- 00:27:30.020 --> 00:27:30.760 align:middle line:90% MARK HARVEY: Track four, right? 00:27:30.760 --> 00:27:32.052 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, track four. 00:27:32.052 --> 00:27:36.250 align:middle line:90% 00:27:36.250 --> 00:27:38.370 align:middle line:84% It's really kind of 2, 5, 2 and squeeze. 00:27:38.370 --> 00:27:39.600 align:middle line:90% So they're all separated. 00:27:39.600 --> 00:27:41.760 align:middle line:84% So there's no real resolution chord. 00:27:41.760 --> 00:27:43.925 align:middle line:84% It's the d-flat chord at the end is a tritone, 00:27:43.925 --> 00:27:49.972 align:middle line:84% so it sets up Miles' head, which is in C. So-- 00:27:49.972 --> 00:27:51.430 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: Steve, can I just make 00:27:51.430 --> 00:27:52.810 align:middle line:90% a couple of straight comments? 00:27:52.810 --> 00:27:57.010 align:middle line:84% Because we've done a little bit with counter line. 00:27:57.010 --> 00:27:58.430 align:middle line:90% But we need to do a lot more. 00:27:58.430 --> 00:28:00.400 align:middle line:90% But this is a great-- 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:02.320 align:middle line:90% obviously, that bass clarinet. 00:28:02.320 --> 00:28:07.930 align:middle line:84% But if we could look at page D, whatever, where letter D is, 00:28:07.930 --> 00:28:09.617 align:middle line:90% page 6 and 7. 00:28:09.617 --> 00:28:11.200 align:middle line:84% And maybe you can say more about this. 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:13.410 align:middle line:90% But if you look at this, the-- 00:28:13.410 --> 00:28:16.230 align:middle line:90% 00:28:16.230 --> 00:28:17.773 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:28:17.773 --> 00:28:20.190 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: Where the horn comes in and has the climbing 00:28:20.190 --> 00:28:20.690 align:middle line:90% thing there? 00:28:20.690 --> 00:28:22.740 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: Yeah, so the trombones 00:28:22.740 --> 00:28:25.415 align:middle line:90% are doing one little idea. 00:28:25.415 --> 00:28:26.290 align:middle line:90% They're all together. 00:28:26.290 --> 00:28:28.500 align:middle line:84% But then the first trombone in the third part 00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:30.840 align:middle line:84% moves a little bit independently. 00:28:30.840 --> 00:28:32.670 align:middle line:90% Then the horn comes in. 00:28:32.670 --> 00:28:33.852 align:middle line:90% Then the clarinet comes in. 00:28:33.852 --> 00:28:35.310 align:middle line:84% Meanwhile, the trombone is leading. 00:28:35.310 --> 00:28:37.553 align:middle line:84% So you're building this thicker texture. 00:28:37.553 --> 00:28:38.595 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: Absolutely. 00:28:38.595 --> 00:28:39.970 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: But everything fits. 00:28:39.970 --> 00:28:41.760 align:middle line:90% Everything is, like, perfect. 00:28:41.760 --> 00:28:44.310 align:middle line:84% And then you get on the next page, page 7. 00:28:44.310 --> 00:28:50.130 align:middle line:84% And the bass clarinet, they're starting out double-jointed, 00:28:50.130 --> 00:28:52.990 align:middle line:90% which is a really nice effect. 00:28:52.990 --> 00:28:54.000 align:middle line:90% Do you have any more-- 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:56.802 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, well, I mean, it is a great effect. 00:28:56.802 --> 00:28:58.260 align:middle line:84% And actually, some of those things, 00:28:58.260 --> 00:29:02.220 align:middle line:84% if you look at how he does it, the trombones back in D 00:29:02.220 --> 00:29:06.600 align:middle line:84% start with a fairly stock voicing kind of thing, 00:29:06.600 --> 00:29:08.093 align:middle line:90% nothing that would really-- 00:29:08.093 --> 00:29:10.260 align:middle line:84% it sounds good, but nothing that would blow you away 00:29:10.260 --> 00:29:11.910 align:middle line:90% from a theory point of view. 00:29:11.910 --> 00:29:13.530 align:middle line:84% And then Mark said, all of a sudden, 00:29:13.530 --> 00:29:16.240 align:middle line:84% the first bone is moving, places in there 00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:18.843 align:middle line:84% where second or third trombones is moving in quarter notes. 00:29:18.843 --> 00:29:20.510 align:middle line:84% And somebody else is holding half notes. 00:29:20.510 --> 00:29:25.210 align:middle line:84% So there's these shifting lines against at least part 00:29:25.210 --> 00:29:25.840 align:middle line:90% of a chord. 00:29:25.840 --> 00:29:27.918 align:middle line:84% In the meantime, the horn is added in. 00:29:27.918 --> 00:29:28.960 align:middle line:90% The clarinet is added in. 00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:31.045 align:middle line:84% The way that those are added in, it's almost like, 00:29:31.045 --> 00:29:34.150 align:middle line:84% you notice it after the fact, rather than them-- 00:29:34.150 --> 00:29:37.390 align:middle line:84% I know when I first transcribed it, I'm like, wait a minute. 00:29:37.390 --> 00:29:38.990 align:middle line:84% I have to sound like just trombones. 00:29:38.990 --> 00:29:40.270 align:middle line:90% Now I'm hearing four voices. 00:29:40.270 --> 00:29:42.460 align:middle line:84% And that can't be the bass trombone coming in. 00:29:42.460 --> 00:29:44.260 align:middle line:84% And it can't be everybody shifting up 00:29:44.260 --> 00:29:46.900 align:middle line:84% one note in the voicing because you lose the sense of all 00:29:46.900 --> 00:29:49.120 align:middle line:90% those lines, you know? 00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:51.340 align:middle line:84% And then the same thing, when you look on page 7, 00:29:51.340 --> 00:29:53.170 align:middle line:84% like Mark pointed out, the three clarinets, 00:29:53.170 --> 00:29:55.270 align:middle line:84% they start with this very tight voicing. 00:29:55.270 --> 00:29:58.190 align:middle line:84% The first two clarinets are a second apart from each other. 00:29:58.190 --> 00:30:00.920 align:middle line:84% But that voicing gradually spreads out. 00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:04.330 align:middle line:84% And by the time you get toward the end of that, 00:30:04.330 --> 00:30:07.390 align:middle line:84% the trombones, if you look at the clarinet voicings, 00:30:07.390 --> 00:30:08.920 align:middle line:84% it's really an incomplete voicing. 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:13.540 align:middle line:84% What's happening by the second bar of that is the trombones 00:30:13.540 --> 00:30:15.760 align:middle line:84% are carrying the body of the chord. 00:30:15.760 --> 00:30:20.140 align:middle line:84% And the clarinets are filling in some color tones that provide 00:30:20.140 --> 00:30:22.580 align:middle line:90% interesting melodic content. 00:30:22.580 --> 00:30:25.900 align:middle line:84% But they don't form a complete chord by themselves, you know? 00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:28.312 align:middle line:84% And so it starts out as a clarinet choir. 00:30:28.312 --> 00:30:29.770 align:middle line:84% And then when the bones come in, it 00:30:29.770 --> 00:30:33.400 align:middle line:84% becomes this whole combination clarinet and bone thing 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:35.890 align:middle line:90% woven together harmonically. 00:30:35.890 --> 00:30:38.180 align:middle line:90% So it's a really cool effect. 00:30:38.180 --> 00:30:40.810 align:middle line:84% And that's, to me, the climax of the-- dramatic climax 00:30:40.810 --> 00:30:42.040 align:middle line:90% of the chart right there. 00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:44.260 align:middle line:84% And he just takes everything away, 00:30:44.260 --> 00:30:46.000 align:middle line:90% except the bass line after that. 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:49.960 align:middle line:84% There is bass clarinet and Bassbone on it. 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:52.300 align:middle line:84% But it's just them and the string bass 00:30:52.300 --> 00:30:54.580 align:middle line:90% way down, with Miles way up. 00:30:54.580 --> 00:30:57.520 align:middle line:84% It's like, the middle just falls out after that climax. 00:30:57.520 --> 00:30:59.560 align:middle line:84% It takes it way, way down, you know? 00:30:59.560 --> 00:31:02.050 align:middle line:84% So the whole thing is a really nice effect, 00:31:02.050 --> 00:31:03.420 align:middle line:90% a beautiful piece of arranging. 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:05.170 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: I just want to emphasize this 00:31:05.170 --> 00:31:06.795 align:middle line:84% because I've talked about, this is why, 00:31:06.795 --> 00:31:08.360 align:middle line:84% when we get to Gil Evans, this stuff, 00:31:08.360 --> 00:31:11.860 align:middle line:84% this is why we call it the Jazz Orchestra, for real. 00:31:11.860 --> 00:31:13.990 align:middle line:90% This is the real deal. 00:31:13.990 --> 00:31:17.700 align:middle line:84% And just one other quick question because this 00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:20.070 align:middle line:90% is something that amazed me. 00:31:20.070 --> 00:31:22.080 align:middle line:84% Did anybody hear, even though you're 00:31:22.080 --> 00:31:24.600 align:middle line:84% looking at this, when that opening introduction came, 00:31:24.600 --> 00:31:27.480 align:middle line:84% did anybody here think they were hearing something else? 00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:32.880 align:middle line:90% 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:34.710 align:middle line:84% It's hard because the cat's out of the bag. 00:31:34.710 --> 00:31:36.000 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, yeah, once you see the score, 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:37.123 align:middle line:90% you don't know what's-- 00:31:37.123 --> 00:31:38.790 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: I was putting this together 00:31:38.790 --> 00:31:40.158 align:middle line:90% to put on our syllabus. 00:31:40.158 --> 00:31:40.950 align:middle line:90% So I was listening. 00:31:40.950 --> 00:31:44.055 align:middle line:84% So I thought, oh, isn't that nice with those flutes. 00:31:44.055 --> 00:31:45.180 align:middle line:90% There's no flutes anywhere! 00:31:45.180 --> 00:31:46.080 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah. 00:31:46.080 --> 00:31:47.497 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: It's that combination 00:31:47.497 --> 00:31:49.220 align:middle line:90% of the mute and the trumpets. 00:31:49.220 --> 00:31:51.180 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: Right, right. 00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:56.310 align:middle line:84% Yeah, there's definitely-- the Ellington Transblucency, 00:31:56.310 --> 00:32:01.170 align:middle line:84% when you play that for them, Duke and Gil seem 00:32:01.170 --> 00:32:02.970 align:middle line:84% to have that thing where, sometimes, they 00:32:02.970 --> 00:32:05.160 align:middle line:84% put a certain combination of instruments together. 00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:07.680 align:middle line:84% And you'd swear that you're hearing 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:09.462 align:middle line:84% another note or another instrument 00:32:09.462 --> 00:32:10.420 align:middle line:90% or something like that. 00:32:10.420 --> 00:32:11.670 align:middle line:84% I think that's what Mark's driving at, 00:32:11.670 --> 00:32:14.045 align:middle line:84% that there were definitely times in this where I'm like-- 00:32:14.045 --> 00:32:16.800 align:middle line:84% and you know what the other one is that's like that? 00:32:16.800 --> 00:32:20.430 align:middle line:84% Actually, this is what made me realize that this passage was 00:32:20.430 --> 00:32:25.980 align:middle line:84% in hat mutes in New Rhumba on the same album, when they play 00:32:25.980 --> 00:32:32.410 align:middle line:84% that little figure behind Miles, so [SCATTING] it's 00:32:32.410 --> 00:32:34.510 align:middle line:84% kind of a little variation melodically each time. 00:32:34.510 --> 00:32:37.120 align:middle line:84% But it's pretty much the same chords and the same lick. 00:32:37.120 --> 00:32:40.330 align:middle line:84% And sometimes, he does it, harmonies and flutes, 00:32:40.330 --> 00:32:42.730 align:middle line:84% like in a choir, where they're doubling each other, 00:32:42.730 --> 00:32:45.970 align:middle line:84% sometimes, he does it with trombones and tuba. 00:32:45.970 --> 00:32:50.380 align:middle line:84% And sometimes, it sounds like Miles and French horns and bass 00:32:50.380 --> 00:32:51.820 align:middle line:90% clarinet. 00:32:51.820 --> 00:32:55.780 align:middle line:84% And I sat there for days, listening to that thing 00:32:55.780 --> 00:32:58.533 align:middle line:84% and thinking, there's only two horns listed on the record. 00:32:58.533 --> 00:32:59.950 align:middle line:84% It sounds like there's four horns. 00:32:59.950 --> 00:33:02.440 align:middle line:84% This is driving me crazy, you know? 00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:05.710 align:middle line:90% And I saw some jazz catalog. 00:33:05.710 --> 00:33:07.630 align:middle line:90% And it said, oh, there's this-- 00:33:07.630 --> 00:33:10.480 align:middle line:84% I knew that they had done the television show in 1959, 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:12.880 align:middle line:90% the Robert Harris Theater. 00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:14.920 align:middle line:84% They played some pieces from Miles Ahead. 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:16.690 align:middle line:90% And I saw this jazz catalog. 00:33:16.690 --> 00:33:19.720 align:middle line:84% And it said they had a video of Gil Evans and Miles Davis 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:20.710 align:middle line:90% from 1959. 00:33:20.710 --> 00:33:23.260 align:middle line:84% I thought, oh, they played New Rhumba on there. 00:33:23.260 --> 00:33:28.920 align:middle line:84% Maybe in the video, you can get a handle on what's going on. 00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:31.170 align:middle line:84% And Gil was set up in a horseshoe. 00:33:31.170 --> 00:33:34.710 align:middle line:84% And the brass were in a big row over here 00:33:34.710 --> 00:33:36.600 align:middle line:84% and the woodwinds and horns over here. 00:33:36.600 --> 00:33:38.220 align:middle line:90% And drums and bass are here. 00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:40.830 align:middle line:84% And Miles and Gil are out front there, you know? 00:33:40.830 --> 00:33:44.130 align:middle line:84% And so you see it in the studio pictures. 00:33:44.130 --> 00:33:46.497 align:middle line:84% And you see it, it's in the panning. 00:33:46.497 --> 00:33:48.330 align:middle line:84% In the record, the woodwinds are hard right. 00:33:48.330 --> 00:33:49.890 align:middle line:90% And the brass are hard left. 00:33:49.890 --> 00:33:52.260 align:middle line:84% And the rhythm section and Miles are in the middle. 00:33:52.260 --> 00:33:56.490 align:middle line:84% It's very early stereo kind of thing, you know? 00:33:56.490 --> 00:33:58.763 align:middle line:90% And so, anyway, in the video-- 00:33:58.763 --> 00:33:59.430 align:middle line:90% I had the video. 00:33:59.430 --> 00:34:00.210 align:middle line:90% I turned it on. 00:34:00.210 --> 00:34:02.880 align:middle line:84% And some woodwind stuff that you couldn't see because they're 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:04.530 align:middle line:90% panning around the horseshoe. 00:34:04.530 --> 00:34:06.630 align:middle line:84% But I don't know, if I didn't see, 00:34:06.630 --> 00:34:09.810 align:middle line:84% there's the trombones with half mutes mounted on the stands. 00:34:09.810 --> 00:34:13.650 align:middle line:84% And when the French horn thing comes along, 00:34:13.650 --> 00:34:15.627 align:middle line:84% two bones just put their instrument down. 00:34:15.627 --> 00:34:17.210 align:middle line:84% And two other guys lean into the hats. 00:34:17.210 --> 00:34:18.960 align:middle line:84% They're playing with the French horns. 00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:20.520 align:middle line:90% And then they back right out. 00:34:20.520 --> 00:34:22.889 align:middle line:84% And the four bones are playing the lick together. 00:34:22.889 --> 00:34:27.400 align:middle line:84% And I'm thinking, damn, I spent days trying to figure out 00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:29.199 align:middle line:90% what was in that voicing. 00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:30.969 align:middle line:84% And it never would have dawned on me 00:34:30.969 --> 00:34:32.380 align:middle line:84% if I hadn't seen it on the video. 00:34:32.380 --> 00:34:33.880 align:middle line:84% But once I saw it on the video, then 00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:36.610 align:middle line:84% you realize, oh, how is he getting this balance, three 00:34:36.610 --> 00:34:37.719 align:middle line:90% bones and one horn? 00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:39.969 align:middle line:84% The hat mute is the answer there. 00:34:39.969 --> 00:34:43.300 align:middle line:84% A pocket theme will give you the same sort of effect, 00:34:43.300 --> 00:34:44.960 align:middle line:90% except that clips on. 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:47.290 align:middle line:84% And so the problem becomes the logistical thing. 00:34:47.290 --> 00:34:50.679 align:middle line:84% If you're going back and forth between open and muted real 00:34:50.679 --> 00:34:53.530 align:middle line:84% quick, like in New Rhumba, the pocket theme is useless, 00:34:53.530 --> 00:34:55.449 align:middle line:90% you know? 00:34:55.449 --> 00:34:57.850 align:middle line:84% And the hat mutes, instead of holding 00:34:57.850 --> 00:35:00.790 align:middle line:84% it the way you'd hold the plunger or something like that, 00:35:00.790 --> 00:35:03.130 align:middle line:84% he's actually got it clipped on to the stand. 00:35:03.130 --> 00:35:05.530 align:middle line:90% And they're leaning into it. 00:35:05.530 --> 00:35:06.830 align:middle line:90% I don't know about you. 00:35:06.830 --> 00:35:10.900 align:middle line:84% But I always found, when I play any big band stuff, 00:35:10.900 --> 00:35:12.790 align:middle line:84% if you wrote stuff for half mutes 00:35:12.790 --> 00:35:14.770 align:middle line:84% or whatever for the brass players, 00:35:14.770 --> 00:35:16.510 align:middle line:84% you'd think that you were asking them 00:35:16.510 --> 00:35:20.320 align:middle line:84% to march from here to Los Angeles with 100 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:22.450 align:middle line:90% pounds on their back, you know? 00:35:22.450 --> 00:35:24.310 align:middle line:84% So after a while, I don't carry that. 00:35:24.310 --> 00:35:26.650 align:middle line:84% I don't know an A. So I would just-- 00:35:26.650 --> 00:35:28.960 align:middle line:84% I bought for half mutes for trombones. 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:30.377 align:middle line:90% And I just bring them to gigs. 00:35:30.377 --> 00:35:31.960 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: See, yeah, just bring it. 00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:32.960 align:middle line:90% Bring it, just bring it. 00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:35.230 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, but-- 00:35:35.230 --> 00:35:36.010 align:middle line:90% right? 00:35:36.010 --> 00:35:37.150 align:middle line:90% I don't know if you-- 00:35:37.150 --> 00:35:37.720 align:middle line:90% MARK HARVEY: I don't even know. 00:35:37.720 --> 00:35:39.720 align:middle line:84% Do you guys even use buckets and hat mutes and-- 00:35:39.720 --> 00:35:41.070 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: We use hat mutes. 00:35:41.070 --> 00:35:42.640 align:middle line:90% MARK HARVEY: Hat mutes. 00:35:42.640 --> 00:35:44.470 align:middle line:84% This is a very bad drawing, as you know. 00:35:44.470 --> 00:35:46.330 align:middle line:90% But it's an egg, frying an egg. 00:35:46.330 --> 00:35:48.648 align:middle line:84% But it's literally like a dirty-- 00:35:48.648 --> 00:35:49.690 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, yeah. 00:35:49.690 --> 00:35:51.565 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: And it was big in the swing era. 00:35:51.565 --> 00:35:52.990 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: Yes. 00:35:52.990 --> 00:35:54.430 align:middle line:90% MARK HARVEY: And-- 00:35:54.430 --> 00:35:55.015 align:middle line:90% I mean, yeah. 00:35:55.015 --> 00:35:56.860 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: For that reason, it's out of style. 00:35:56.860 --> 00:35:58.045 align:middle line:90% It's considered really un-hip. 00:35:58.045 --> 00:36:00.370 align:middle line:84% And so you wouldn't wear it if you wanted it on a pick. 00:36:00.370 --> 00:36:00.580 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: That's what I was saying. 00:36:00.580 --> 00:36:03.160 align:middle line:90% You'd have it here on a stand. 00:36:03.160 --> 00:36:07.150 align:middle line:84% And so what you could do is you can easily just 00:36:07.150 --> 00:36:09.617 align:middle line:84% put your horn, trumpet, and trombone towards it. 00:36:09.617 --> 00:36:11.200 align:middle line:84% And so it makes it-- sometimes, you'll 00:36:11.200 --> 00:36:13.810 align:middle line:84% see it written on the score, in stand. 00:36:13.810 --> 00:36:15.290 align:middle line:84% If you try to get the same effect, 00:36:15.290 --> 00:36:16.790 align:middle line:84% here's a music stand with the paper. 00:36:16.790 --> 00:36:17.860 align:middle line:90% So you push the bell up. 00:36:17.860 --> 00:36:20.390 align:middle line:84% And it gives a little muffled quasi-French horn 00:36:20.390 --> 00:36:22.300 align:middle line:84% if you're really good sort of idea. 00:36:22.300 --> 00:36:24.760 align:middle line:84% This is a really good, let me say. 00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:27.750 align:middle line:90% But it literally looks like-- 00:36:27.750 --> 00:36:28.800 align:middle line:90% it's like an old hat. 00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:31.020 align:middle line:84% You know Jackie Kennedy, the hat she used to wear, a pillbox? 00:36:31.020 --> 00:36:32.187 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: Pillbox, yeah. 00:36:32.187 --> 00:36:33.060 align:middle line:90% MARK HARVEY: Bigger. 00:36:33.060 --> 00:36:34.982 align:middle line:84% She would never have worn this-- bigger. 00:36:34.982 --> 00:36:36.690 align:middle line:84% And it has these little clips on the side 00:36:36.690 --> 00:36:39.060 align:middle line:84% so that way, you're saying, you have to clip it on. 00:36:39.060 --> 00:36:40.780 align:middle line:90% I don't even own one. 00:36:40.780 --> 00:36:42.482 align:middle line:90% So that was pretty far off. 00:36:42.482 --> 00:36:44.190 align:middle line:84% And I know Ronnie didn't that have those. 00:36:44.190 --> 00:36:46.830 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, when I was younger, 00:36:46.830 --> 00:36:49.230 align:middle line:84% the only time I ever saw a hat used 00:36:49.230 --> 00:36:52.290 align:middle line:84% was, it was in the Glenn Miller stuff. 00:36:52.290 --> 00:36:53.790 align:middle line:84% And it always struck me like they 00:36:53.790 --> 00:36:57.600 align:middle line:84% were trying to have a polite version of the Ellington 00:36:57.600 --> 00:36:59.790 align:middle line:84% Plunger thing because people would use it 00:36:59.790 --> 00:37:00.900 align:middle line:90% for the "wa wa" sound. 00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:05.250 align:middle line:84% But it wasn't nearly as nasty as the Ellington, the growl 00:37:05.250 --> 00:37:09.130 align:middle line:84% and plunger thing, where you really get that dirty sound, 00:37:09.130 --> 00:37:09.630 align:middle line:90% you know? 00:37:09.630 --> 00:37:12.480 align:middle line:84% And with the hats, using them that way, 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:15.520 align:middle line:84% it was a very polite society kind of thing. 00:37:15.520 --> 00:37:17.940 align:middle line:84% So I knew why brass players didn't 00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:19.920 align:middle line:84% want to carry that mute because it was, you 00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:21.960 align:middle line:90% don't want to sound like that. 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:23.280 align:middle line:90% That's one this album. 00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:24.970 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: Actually, if you're really interested in this, 00:37:24.970 --> 00:37:26.760 align:middle line:84% which I don't know why you would be, 00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:28.712 align:middle line:84% there's a guy named Lawrence Welk. 00:37:28.712 --> 00:37:29.670 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: Oh, yeah. 00:37:29.670 --> 00:37:31.570 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: Just gone out to his reward. 00:37:31.570 --> 00:37:35.320 align:middle line:84% But they still show his band, the tape is on the channel, 00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:38.860 align:middle line:84% I think it's New Hampshire Public Television. 00:37:38.860 --> 00:37:39.910 align:middle line:90% And there they are. 00:37:39.910 --> 00:37:42.370 align:middle line:84% And they got their little damage-- frankly, polite. 00:37:42.370 --> 00:37:44.870 align:middle line:84% And the thing about the Welk band, and I'm going to shut up, 00:37:44.870 --> 00:37:47.380 align:middle line:84% is that he would allow his people to improvise, 00:37:47.380 --> 00:37:49.582 align:middle line:84% although it was very frightening improvisation. 00:37:49.582 --> 00:37:51.040 align:middle line:84% And this is what I heard, was that, 00:37:51.040 --> 00:37:52.498 align:middle line:84% if you were going to improvise, you 00:37:52.498 --> 00:37:55.518 align:middle line:84% had to submit the improvised solo written out ahead of time 00:37:55.518 --> 00:37:56.560 align:middle line:90% so they could approve it. 00:37:56.560 --> 00:37:58.580 align:middle line:84% Well, that's exactly the problem. 00:37:58.580 --> 00:38:00.910 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, yeah, ah, we could 00:38:00.910 --> 00:38:03.265 align:middle line:90% have one or two conversations. 00:38:03.265 --> 00:38:05.140 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: But you'll see these, you know-- 00:38:05.140 --> 00:38:07.180 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, so what the hats do 00:38:07.180 --> 00:38:09.490 align:middle line:84% is basically quiet the trombone down 00:38:09.490 --> 00:38:12.868 align:middle line:84% so it can balance under the French horns. 00:38:12.868 --> 00:38:14.920 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: How many horns in there-- 00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:16.543 align:middle line:90% how many because they are-- 00:38:16.543 --> 00:38:18.460 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: The hat is mounted on the stand. 00:38:18.460 --> 00:38:20.440 align:middle line:84% And so they're leaning into the hat. 00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:23.928 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But the rest of the train goes past the horn? 00:38:23.928 --> 00:38:25.470 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, so they basically 00:38:25.470 --> 00:38:28.210 align:middle line:84% have to stand off to the side, yeah, yeah. 00:38:28.210 --> 00:38:31.030 align:middle line:84% I know what I did was, I wound up 00:38:31.030 --> 00:38:36.460 align:middle line:84% taking, you can buy at Home Depot, the pipe clamp stuff. 00:38:36.460 --> 00:38:39.280 align:middle line:84% You can use that stuff because you can shape it. 00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:40.960 align:middle line:84% And you can put a bolt in it, you know? 00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:43.300 align:middle line:84% And another thing that I did, actually, 00:38:43.300 --> 00:38:47.380 align:middle line:84% that worked pretty much just as well was taking a coat hanger 00:38:47.380 --> 00:38:51.370 align:middle line:84% and make it so you can wrap it around the body of the hat. 00:38:51.370 --> 00:38:55.870 align:middle line:84% And then you clip that with a couple of real strong-- 00:38:55.870 --> 00:38:57.010 align:middle line:90% again, like at Home Depot. 00:38:57.010 --> 00:39:00.570 align:middle line:84% You can get a couple of strong clamps, clamp that-- 00:39:00.570 --> 00:39:02.320 align:middle line:84% little clamps, the squeeze clamps that you 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:04.750 align:middle line:90% can clamp that on to the stand. 00:39:04.750 --> 00:39:06.780 align:middle line:84% And then you just lay the hat in there. 00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:08.457 align:middle line:84% And so they just get a read on the side. 00:39:08.457 --> 00:39:10.540 align:middle line:84% And they pick which side they're going to read on. 00:39:10.540 --> 00:39:14.800 align:middle line:84% And usually, the time we did the Miles Ahead concert, 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:16.510 align:middle line:84% everybody quickly finds out, like, 00:39:16.510 --> 00:39:20.290 align:middle line:84% OK, we all need to read off the same side because my hat is 00:39:20.290 --> 00:39:21.090 align:middle line:90% on the right side. 00:39:21.090 --> 00:39:22.157 align:middle line:90% And yours is on the left. 00:39:22.157 --> 00:39:23.740 align:middle line:84% And there's not enough room, you know? 00:39:23.740 --> 00:39:26.030 align:middle line:84% So these logistical things like that. 00:39:26.030 --> 00:39:27.950 align:middle line:90% But you can do it. 00:39:27.950 --> 00:39:29.630 align:middle line:90% And guys get used to it. 00:39:29.630 --> 00:39:34.760 align:middle line:84% The guys who played, when I did the Miles Ahead concert, which 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.730 align:middle line:84% was I guess three years ago, we had Jeff Galindo play lead 00:39:37.730 --> 00:39:39.127 align:middle line:90% on it. 00:39:39.127 --> 00:39:40.460 align:middle line:90% But then there were some other-- 00:39:40.460 --> 00:39:43.130 align:middle line:84% I'm trying to think of who else was in there. 00:39:43.130 --> 00:39:45.350 align:middle line:84% Some South Shore guys played on it. 00:39:45.350 --> 00:39:48.233 align:middle line:84% But I remember a couple of them just looking at the charts. 00:39:48.233 --> 00:39:49.400 align:middle line:90% And one of them looks at me. 00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:50.990 align:middle line:90% And he says, teach me, baby. 00:39:50.990 --> 00:39:52.940 align:middle line:90% Just teach me, you know? 00:39:52.940 --> 00:39:56.030 align:middle line:84% Because there's so much stuff that you learn from this, even 00:39:56.030 --> 00:40:00.560 align:middle line:84% just how to play them, that it would just never occur 00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:03.650 align:middle line:90% to you as a player, you know? 00:40:03.650 --> 00:40:06.620 align:middle line:84% But then, even just seeing one tune, 00:40:06.620 --> 00:40:09.440 align:middle line:84% you start realizing how much thought and planning went 00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:11.510 align:middle line:90% into this, you know? 00:40:11.510 --> 00:40:14.150 align:middle line:84% So yeah, all those voicing things 00:40:14.150 --> 00:40:16.012 align:middle line:84% that Mark mentioned with the hat mutes, 00:40:16.012 --> 00:40:17.720 align:middle line:84% basically, what you do with the hat mutes 00:40:17.720 --> 00:40:19.550 align:middle line:90% is you gain four French horns. 00:40:19.550 --> 00:40:22.820 align:middle line:84% You can orchestrate for what amounts to six French horns, 00:40:22.820 --> 00:40:24.260 align:middle line:90% at least that kind of sound. 00:40:24.260 --> 00:40:25.760 align:middle line:84% And when you put the tuba with that, 00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:29.210 align:middle line:84% you can have this real soft mid and low brass 00:40:29.210 --> 00:40:30.890 align:middle line:90% section that's real dense. 00:40:30.890 --> 00:40:36.265 align:middle line:84% Plus, if you want the classic big band brass section, 00:40:36.265 --> 00:40:38.390 align:middle line:84% you still got the open bones with the open trumpets 00:40:38.390 --> 00:40:39.954 align:middle line:90% that you can-- 00:40:39.954 --> 00:40:43.620 align:middle line:84% but yeah, so I think that's the other thing, 00:40:43.620 --> 00:40:45.630 align:middle line:84% is with the old stuff, you move away 00:40:45.630 --> 00:40:48.480 align:middle line:84% from just the brass sax, brass sax kind of thing. 00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:50.520 align:middle line:84% It is, like Mark said, more like an orchestra, 00:40:50.520 --> 00:40:53.490 align:middle line:84% where you really have all kinds of combinations 00:40:53.490 --> 00:40:56.700 align:middle line:84% that, some of them may be close to each other, but just 00:40:56.700 --> 00:40:59.880 align:middle line:84% this real subtle kind of thing where you can shift columns 00:40:59.880 --> 00:41:00.840 align:middle line:90% and stuff like that. 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:04.140 align:middle line:84% And yet it's still within a fairly limited instrumentation 00:41:04.140 --> 00:41:06.120 align:middle line:84% in terms of the total number of people 00:41:06.120 --> 00:41:10.410 align:middle line:90% that you've got going at. 00:41:10.410 --> 00:41:12.318 align:middle line:84% Anybody have any questions at all? 00:41:12.318 --> 00:41:13.860 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Is it relatively common for 00:41:13.860 --> 00:41:17.050 align:middle line:84% there to only be one sax in these? 00:41:17.050 --> 00:41:18.840 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: No, well, in Gil's thing. 00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:23.860 align:middle line:84% But I think part of it I think was a combination. 00:41:23.860 --> 00:41:27.063 align:middle line:84% There's a funny history where they had, Lee Konitz and Gil, 00:41:27.063 --> 00:41:28.980 align:middle line:84% they worked in the Claude Thornhill Orchestra. 00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:32.790 align:middle line:84% That group had had French horns and tuba and some clarinet 00:41:32.790 --> 00:41:33.690 align:middle line:90% work and stuff. 00:41:33.690 --> 00:41:36.000 align:middle line:84% And then, of course, out of that came 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.440 align:middle line:84% the birth of the cool stuff, which 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.360 align:middle line:90% was Lee and Gil and Miles. 00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:41.680 align:middle line:90% And it was actually-- 00:41:41.680 --> 00:41:44.680 align:middle line:84% Miles had an interest in the Claude Thornhill thing. 00:41:44.680 --> 00:41:48.040 align:middle line:84% And Gil had an interest in Charlie Parker's music. 00:41:48.040 --> 00:41:50.200 align:middle line:84% There's a couple of Claude Thornhill charts. 00:41:50.200 --> 00:41:51.040 align:middle line:90% I got them on there. 00:41:51.040 --> 00:41:52.623 align:middle line:84% But we probably don't have time to get 00:41:52.623 --> 00:41:56.860 align:middle line:84% into that stuff, the Yardbird suite and anthropology. 00:41:56.860 --> 00:42:02.320 align:middle line:84% And according to Gil, Gil approached Miles and said-- 00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:05.030 align:middle line:84% Miles said he was interested in Claude Thornhill's things. 00:42:05.030 --> 00:42:08.110 align:middle line:84% So he gave Miles, I forget the score 00:42:08.110 --> 00:42:09.520 align:middle line:90% to what Claude Thornhill chart. 00:42:09.520 --> 00:42:11.890 align:middle line:84% And Miles gave him a lead sheet to Donna Lee. 00:42:11.890 --> 00:42:14.140 align:middle line:84% And Gil eventually did an arrangement to Donna Lee 00:42:14.140 --> 00:42:16.150 align:middle line:90% for the Thornhill Orchestra. 00:42:16.150 --> 00:42:18.160 align:middle line:84% And out of that, when the big band era 00:42:18.160 --> 00:42:20.950 align:middle line:84% kind of crashed and the bands weren't working 00:42:20.950 --> 00:42:22.480 align:middle line:84% and Thornhill band wasn't working, 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.060 align:middle line:84% that's when the discussions for Birth of the Cool started. 00:42:25.060 --> 00:42:27.347 align:middle line:84% The Birth of the Cool thing, I mean, 00:42:27.347 --> 00:42:28.930 align:middle line:84% if you could put it into one sentence, 00:42:28.930 --> 00:42:32.290 align:middle line:84% was what's the smallest band you can have that would still get 00:42:32.290 --> 00:42:35.080 align:middle line:90% the Thornhill sound, you know? 00:42:35.080 --> 00:42:38.740 align:middle line:84% Then, when Miles was signed to Columbia, 00:42:38.740 --> 00:42:42.130 align:middle line:84% he was still signed to Prestige at the time, right? 00:42:42.130 --> 00:42:44.500 align:middle line:84% And so Columbia was looking for something 00:42:44.500 --> 00:42:47.350 align:middle line:84% that was going to make him different 00:42:47.350 --> 00:42:50.440 align:middle line:84% and make his Columbia recordings different than the Prestige, 00:42:50.440 --> 00:42:51.520 align:middle line:90% small group ones. 00:42:51.520 --> 00:42:54.970 align:middle line:84% And by that time in the 50's, Nat Cole 00:42:54.970 --> 00:42:57.340 align:middle line:84% was recording with Nelson Riddle, 00:42:57.340 --> 00:43:00.070 align:middle line:84% and so was Sinatra, recording with Gordon Jenkins 00:43:00.070 --> 00:43:00.820 align:middle line:90% and Nelson Riddle. 00:43:00.820 --> 00:43:02.862 align:middle line:84% And there was this thing where you take a soloist 00:43:02.862 --> 00:43:05.270 align:middle line:90% and wrap him in an orchestra. 00:43:05.270 --> 00:43:07.570 align:middle line:84% So it was Avakian, George Avakian 00:43:07.570 --> 00:43:11.230 align:middle line:84% that had the idea, what about doing an instrumental 00:43:11.230 --> 00:43:11.980 align:middle line:90% version of that? 00:43:11.980 --> 00:43:14.890 align:middle line:84% Have Miles wrapped in an orchestra-- 00:43:14.890 --> 00:43:17.630 align:middle line:84% and then became, well, who do you want to write for you? 00:43:17.630 --> 00:43:18.850 align:middle line:90% And that's where Gil came in. 00:43:18.850 --> 00:43:21.430 align:middle line:84% And Avakian said, well, I could take Birth of the Cool 00:43:21.430 --> 00:43:25.095 align:middle line:84% and blow that out to a bigger instrumentation. 00:43:25.095 --> 00:43:26.470 align:middle line:84% But, of course, Birth of the Cool 00:43:26.470 --> 00:43:27.928 align:middle line:84% was just doing the Thornhill sound. 00:43:27.928 --> 00:43:30.262 align:middle line:84% So it was a funny thing sort of thing, making it smaller 00:43:30.262 --> 00:43:31.630 align:middle line:90% and then making it bigger again. 00:43:31.630 --> 00:43:33.700 align:middle line:84% And I think, to make a long story lousy, 00:43:33.700 --> 00:43:36.670 align:middle line:84% the Lee Konitz thing was that you 00:43:36.670 --> 00:43:39.100 align:middle line:84% had a lead alto that could function 00:43:39.100 --> 00:43:41.470 align:middle line:90% as a lead alto in a section. 00:43:41.470 --> 00:43:45.580 align:middle line:84% But you had-- there's times when that alto is down 00:43:45.580 --> 00:43:49.120 align:middle line:84% in the section, there'd be a couple of clarinets and alto 00:43:49.120 --> 00:43:52.810 align:middle line:84% and bass clarinet functioning as a four piece clarinet section 00:43:52.810 --> 00:43:55.540 align:middle line:84% because the alto-- and the Duke does harmonies like that, 00:43:55.540 --> 00:43:57.910 align:middle line:84% with the altos and the third voice in the staff. 00:43:57.910 --> 00:44:00.100 align:middle line:84% And it basically sounds like the clarinet choir. 00:44:00.100 --> 00:44:03.310 align:middle line:84% There's other times where he acts more like a lead alto. 00:44:03.310 --> 00:44:05.920 align:middle line:84% There's also, in the Duke and other places, 00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:08.770 align:middle line:84% a three part harmony with Miles and Louis 00:44:08.770 --> 00:44:11.620 align:middle line:84% and Frank Rehak on the lead trombone. 00:44:11.620 --> 00:44:16.360 align:middle line:84% And there's a three horn trio there, a three-part harmony 00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:17.260 align:middle line:90% thing going on. 00:44:17.260 --> 00:44:20.830 align:middle line:84% So that lead alto, the scores I've seen, 00:44:20.830 --> 00:44:22.840 align:middle line:84% he always put it as the top, the way you would 00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:23.830 align:middle line:90% in a big band thing. 00:44:23.830 --> 00:44:26.830 align:middle line:84% But it doesn't always literally function as the lead voice. 00:44:26.830 --> 00:44:29.210 align:middle line:84% Sometimes it's functioning as a third voice. 00:44:29.210 --> 00:44:31.370 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: Especially in Miles's playings. 00:44:31.370 --> 00:44:32.150 align:middle line:90% STEVE LAJOIE: Right, right. 00:44:32.150 --> 00:44:34.567 align:middle line:84% Well, it may lead the counter lines when Miles is playing. 00:44:34.567 --> 00:44:38.030 align:middle line:84% But it may also be buried in a stack, too, you know? 00:44:38.030 --> 00:44:40.405 align:middle line:84% So it really kind of depends what sound you're going for. 00:44:40.405 --> 00:44:42.197 align:middle line:84% If you're looking for clarinet choir sound, 00:44:42.197 --> 00:44:44.490 align:middle line:84% then the alto is going to be buried in that stack, 00:44:44.490 --> 00:44:44.990 align:middle line:90% depending. 00:44:44.990 --> 00:44:47.000 align:middle line:84% Or if it's only three voices, then, 00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:50.910 align:middle line:84% like here in page 7 of My Ship, it's not even getting used. 00:44:50.910 --> 00:44:52.340 align:middle line:84% But if you had four part harmony, 00:44:52.340 --> 00:44:55.790 align:middle line:84% then maybe alto would be in that stack somewhere, 00:44:55.790 --> 00:44:59.930 align:middle line:84% you know, but basically hidden, as if he's another clarinet, 00:44:59.930 --> 00:45:01.640 align:middle line:90% you know? 00:45:01.640 --> 00:45:05.420 align:middle line:84% So those are things that it seems like you'll 00:45:05.420 --> 00:45:06.440 align:middle line:90% have a really bad batch. 00:45:06.440 --> 00:45:09.980 align:middle line:84% There's never a real traditional sax section sound. 00:45:09.980 --> 00:45:13.490 align:middle line:84% The closest he comes is having a clarinet choir. 00:45:13.490 --> 00:45:16.100 align:middle line:84% But again, I think it's kind of, between the muting 00:45:16.100 --> 00:45:20.570 align:middle line:84% and the clarinets and then also the same two flutes and bass 00:45:20.570 --> 00:45:22.880 align:middle line:84% clarinet, it kind of sounds like a flute choir, too. 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:26.300 align:middle line:84% So you can wind up with a lot of different sounds in there, 00:45:26.300 --> 00:45:29.100 align:middle line:84% even though you don't have the traditional big band sax 00:45:29.100 --> 00:45:29.600 align:middle line:90% section. 00:45:29.600 --> 00:45:32.410 align:middle line:90% 00:45:32.410 --> 00:45:34.525 align:middle line:84% Any other questions on that one at all? 00:45:34.525 --> 00:45:36.670 align:middle line:90% All right. 00:45:36.670 --> 00:45:37.913 align:middle line:90% Yeah, so then-- 00:45:37.913 --> 00:45:40.330 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: Just so you know, we've got about 20 minutes. 00:45:40.330 --> 00:45:41.955 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: OK, all right, all right. 00:45:41.955 --> 00:45:44.950 align:middle line:84% Yeah, I brought-- well, maybe I'll skip Maison Denis, 00:45:44.950 --> 00:45:46.870 align:middle line:84% even though that's an interesting thing. 00:45:46.870 --> 00:45:48.910 align:middle line:84% I brought I Don't Want to Be Kissed. 00:45:48.910 --> 00:45:51.310 align:middle line:84% And I thought maybe we can take a quick look at that, 00:45:51.310 --> 00:45:54.410 align:middle line:84% and then maybe finish with a couple of gones, 00:45:54.410 --> 00:45:58.120 align:middle line:84% and if you have questions along the way, just ask. 00:45:58.120 --> 00:46:01.563 align:middle line:84% So that way, I'm not just talking the whole time. 00:46:01.563 --> 00:46:08.925 align:middle line:90% 00:46:08.925 --> 00:46:12.970 align:middle line:84% Maybe what we can do is play them-- 00:46:12.970 --> 00:46:15.210 align:middle line:84% you want to just play them, maybe 00:46:15.210 --> 00:46:19.140 align:middle line:84% parts of the two versions, and then we'll 00:46:19.140 --> 00:46:20.760 align:middle line:84% play the whole Miles and Gil version, 00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:23.100 align:middle line:84% and then go over it after so they 00:46:23.100 --> 00:46:24.867 align:middle line:90% can hear the evolution of it? 00:46:24.867 --> 00:46:26.450 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: That's on the other side. 00:46:26.450 --> 00:46:30.288 align:middle line:90% [AUDIO OUT] 00:46:30.288 --> 00:46:31.830 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: So yeah, it's basically 00:46:31.830 --> 00:46:33.630 align:middle line:84% an orchestrated version of Ahmad's thing. 00:46:33.630 --> 00:46:35.820 align:middle line:84% And what is really interesting on this, 00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:39.390 align:middle line:84% I've only seen a couple of pages that have survived 00:46:39.390 --> 00:46:43.200 align:middle line:90% of Gil's sketch of this tune. 00:46:43.200 --> 00:46:48.902 align:middle line:84% And he literally wrote out four bars of Ahmad's solo. 00:46:48.902 --> 00:46:50.610 align:middle line:84% And then he and Miles change it, and then 00:46:50.610 --> 00:46:51.930 align:middle line:90% four bars of Ahmad's solo. 00:46:51.930 --> 00:46:55.290 align:middle line:84% And when you listen to the recording, 00:46:55.290 --> 00:47:01.860 align:middle line:84% miles kind of plays his version of Ahmad's, and then 00:47:01.860 --> 00:47:03.870 align:middle line:84% four bars of what he wants and comes back to it. 00:47:03.870 --> 00:47:06.690 align:middle line:84% And the recording process on these things, 00:47:06.690 --> 00:47:09.010 align:middle line:84% sometimes, Miles had trouble in the original session. 00:47:09.010 --> 00:47:11.100 align:middle line:84% So he laid out for certain parts. 00:47:11.100 --> 00:47:16.380 align:middle line:84% In this master tape, he actually played the Ahmad licks 00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:19.530 align:middle line:84% at the original session and then did the four bar 00:47:19.530 --> 00:47:22.930 align:middle line:84% things on the overdubs three months later. 00:47:22.930 --> 00:47:25.320 align:middle line:84% So it's like him trading chords with himself. 00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:27.840 align:middle line:84% It's a neat little thing, you know? 00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:29.840 align:middle line:90% So there's cool stuff in there. 00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:32.260 align:middle line:84% And then the way he's got the whole ensemble orchestra. 00:47:32.260 --> 00:47:34.010 align:middle line:90% You take the piano parts. 00:47:34.010 --> 00:47:34.980 align:middle line:90% It's really cool. 00:47:34.980 --> 00:47:38.900 align:middle line:84% And the other thing, if you know Miles Ahead, 00:47:38.900 --> 00:47:42.320 align:middle line:84% the there's a quote from the Varga Violin Concerto 00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:48.020 align:middle line:84% that starts, The Meaning of the Blues. 00:47:48.020 --> 00:47:51.260 align:middle line:84% It's a 12 tone thing that comes out of-- 00:47:51.260 --> 00:47:53.132 align:middle line:90% [PIANO PLAYING] 00:47:53.132 --> 00:47:58.280 align:middle line:90% 00:47:58.280 --> 00:47:59.250 align:middle line:90% That kind of thing. 00:47:59.250 --> 00:48:00.630 align:middle line:90% And that starts it. 00:48:00.630 --> 00:48:02.510 align:middle line:84% And at the end of I Don't Want to Be Kissed-- 00:48:02.510 --> 00:48:04.250 align:middle line:90% [PIANO PLAYING] 00:48:04.250 --> 00:48:05.190 align:middle line:90% 00:48:05.190 --> 00:48:06.650 align:middle line:90% I forget the wood. 00:48:06.650 --> 00:48:09.742 align:middle line:90% But it comes to the 5. 00:48:09.742 --> 00:48:10.950 align:middle line:90% Ernie Broyles is on the lead. 00:48:10.950 --> 00:48:13.410 align:middle line:84% And he comes down the pyramid, the same 12 tone pyramid, 00:48:13.410 --> 00:48:14.070 align:middle line:90% at the end of-- 00:48:14.070 --> 00:48:20.780 align:middle line:84% [PIANO PLAYING] and so on to that, the one chord. 00:48:20.780 --> 00:48:22.410 align:middle line:90% Sure, like that. 00:48:22.410 --> 00:48:24.080 align:middle line:90% Yeah, yeah, so it's really-- 00:48:24.080 --> 00:48:26.690 align:middle line:84% but it's from the Varga Violin Concerto. 00:48:26.690 --> 00:48:31.250 align:middle line:84% And he uses it as an intro to the eighth tune the way 00:48:31.250 --> 00:48:32.060 align:middle line:90% Varga used it. 00:48:32.060 --> 00:48:34.700 align:middle line:84% And then he does the whole better thing upside down 00:48:34.700 --> 00:48:37.220 align:middle line:84% at the end of this chart, which Ahmad didn't do that. 00:48:37.220 --> 00:48:39.235 align:middle line:90% That's Gil's insertion. 00:48:39.235 --> 00:48:40.610 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: Should we go for it? 00:48:40.610 --> 00:48:42.068 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, sure, go ahead. 00:48:42.068 --> 00:48:51.160 align:middle line:90% 00:48:51.160 --> 00:48:54.210 align:middle line:84% Anybody have any questions on that one? 00:48:54.210 --> 00:48:55.610 align:middle line:90% New Rhumba is also-- 00:48:55.610 --> 00:48:58.290 align:middle line:84% the structure of New Rhumba is basically an Ahmad trio thing 00:48:58.290 --> 00:49:02.760 align:middle line:84% that's orchestrated out for the full band like that, 00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:04.890 align:middle line:84% with some of Gil's stuff put in there. 00:49:04.890 --> 00:49:08.580 align:middle line:84% What was always amazing to me, and I don't have time 00:49:08.580 --> 00:49:12.947 align:middle line:84% to play these for you, but he was really good at, 00:49:12.947 --> 00:49:15.030 align:middle line:84% I guess it's that Stravinsky saying, when he says, 00:49:15.030 --> 00:49:16.050 align:middle line:90% good composers borrow. 00:49:16.050 --> 00:49:17.280 align:middle line:90% Great composers steal. 00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:20.450 align:middle line:84% He always seemed to have a knack for putting the most 00:49:20.450 --> 00:49:21.450 align:middle line:90% unusual things together. 00:49:21.450 --> 00:49:25.470 align:middle line:84% But they really fit together really well. 00:49:25.470 --> 00:49:26.460 align:middle line:90% You had a question, or? 00:49:26.460 --> 00:49:31.890 align:middle line:90% 00:49:31.890 --> 00:49:34.162 align:middle line:84% Do I have time to do the Cohens because we 00:49:34.162 --> 00:49:35.370 align:middle line:90% had talked about doing those. 00:49:35.370 --> 00:49:37.350 align:middle line:84% If I got time, I'll gladly do it. 00:49:37.350 --> 00:49:38.550 align:middle line:90% MARK HARVEY: Real quick. 00:49:38.550 --> 00:49:42.210 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: Yeah, yeah, this one is from Porgy and Bess. 00:49:42.210 --> 00:49:48.040 align:middle line:84% And actually, this is the Gershwin one 00:49:48.040 --> 00:49:50.460 align:middle line:90% arranged, basically. 00:49:50.460 --> 00:49:51.600 align:middle line:90% I got four copies. 00:49:51.600 --> 00:49:53.612 align:middle line:84% I don't know if you made any more awards or not. 00:49:53.612 --> 00:49:54.570 align:middle line:90% MARK HARVEY: This gone? 00:49:54.570 --> 00:49:55.440 align:middle line:90% Or Gone, Gone, Gone? 00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:57.660 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: Gone, Gone, Gone, is that-- 00:49:57.660 --> 00:50:00.330 align:middle line:84% we can pass them both out because I 00:50:00.330 --> 00:50:03.870 align:middle line:84% think we'll just go right to one sort of variation on the other, 00:50:03.870 --> 00:50:04.680 align:middle line:90% kind of. 00:50:04.680 --> 00:50:07.470 align:middle line:84% So, anyway, Gone Gone Gone is the Gershwin thing 00:50:07.470 --> 00:50:08.610 align:middle line:90% from Porgy and Bess. 00:50:08.610 --> 00:50:10.740 align:middle line:84% It's actually, in the opera, it's 00:50:10.740 --> 00:50:12.210 align:middle line:90% called Where is Brother Robbins? 00:50:12.210 --> 00:50:19.440 align:middle line:84% And it's basically a preacher and congregation kind of thing. 00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:21.300 align:middle line:84% It has a real gospel kind of thing 00:50:21.300 --> 00:50:23.790 align:middle line:84% to it in terms of a call and response thing. 00:50:23.790 --> 00:50:29.790 align:middle line:84% And in the original, it's a lead singer and a chorus answering, 00:50:29.790 --> 00:50:31.830 align:middle line:90% where is Brother Robbins? 00:50:31.830 --> 00:50:35.310 align:middle line:84% And then everybody's saying, he is gone, gone, gone, gone, 00:50:35.310 --> 00:50:37.200 align:middle line:90% gone, gone, gone. 00:50:37.200 --> 00:50:40.650 align:middle line:84% And it's set up like a preacher congregation thing. 00:50:40.650 --> 00:50:42.540 align:middle line:84% Gil's arrangement of it is pretty 00:50:42.540 --> 00:50:46.060 align:middle line:84% straightforward from the original. 00:50:46.060 --> 00:50:50.590 align:middle line:84% It's just that he's got Miles in the preacher role. 00:50:50.590 --> 00:50:54.070 align:middle line:84% And then the orchestra is in the congregation kind of role. 00:50:54.070 --> 00:50:57.010 align:middle line:84% I did bring-- I don't know if you, 00:50:57.010 --> 00:50:59.650 align:middle line:84% time-wise you can decide whether we should listen to the Porgy 00:50:59.650 --> 00:51:01.240 align:middle line:84% and Bess version, or you want to just go straight to the-- 00:51:01.240 --> 00:51:01.960 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: I think we should just-- 00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:04.220 align:middle line:84% STEVE LAJOIE: All right, OK, on that one, 00:51:04.220 --> 00:51:05.970 align:middle line:84% I'm going to forget who does it, actually. 00:51:05.970 --> 00:51:09.450 align:middle line:90% 00:51:09.450 --> 00:51:12.041 align:middle line:84% So this is track four on this one . 00:51:12.041 --> 00:51:17.700 align:middle line:90% 00:51:17.700 --> 00:51:20.370 align:middle line:84% The instrumentation on Porgy and Bess is a little different. 00:51:20.370 --> 00:51:22.810 align:middle line:84% There's three horns instead of two. 00:51:22.810 --> 00:51:25.320 align:middle line:84% And there's a little more variation 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.050 align:middle line:84% in the woodwind section, where there's 00:51:28.050 --> 00:51:31.410 align:middle line:84% I think one more alto flute that's available and used 00:51:31.410 --> 00:51:32.380 align:middle line:90% a little more often. 00:51:32.380 --> 00:51:35.820 align:middle line:84% Sometimes the bass clarinet isn't used as much. 00:51:35.820 --> 00:51:38.610 align:middle line:84% And there's only four trumpets instead of the five 00:51:38.610 --> 00:51:39.960 align:middle line:90% that there were in Miles Ahead. 00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:42.585 align:middle line:84% So sometimes, the fourth trumpet is playing that renegade role. 00:51:42.585 --> 00:51:47.370 align:middle line:84% Sometimes it's just for a straight section kind of thing. 00:51:47.370 --> 00:51:49.510 align:middle line:84% I'm not quite sure why they made that change. 00:51:49.510 --> 00:51:52.215 align:middle line:84% But it seems like, in Sketches of Spain, they went to, 00:51:52.215 --> 00:51:53.340 align:middle line:90% I think it was three horns. 00:51:53.340 --> 00:51:55.140 align:middle line:84% And they only went to two trombones. 00:51:55.140 --> 00:51:58.560 align:middle line:84% It seems like he was moving away from big band, straight ahead 00:51:58.560 --> 00:52:03.030 align:middle line:84% instrumentation, and more into orchestral colors and stuff. 00:52:03.030 --> 00:52:05.863 align:middle line:84% All right, so the track four is Gone, Gone, Gone. 00:52:05.863 --> 00:52:11.310 align:middle line:90% 00:52:11.310 --> 00:52:13.060 align:middle line:84% So it's basically taken the Gershwin thing 00:52:13.060 --> 00:52:15.160 align:middle line:84% and turned it like, sort of a Bach piece. 00:52:15.160 --> 00:52:19.990 align:middle line:84% And really, only two instrumental choirs there. 00:52:19.990 --> 00:52:23.770 align:middle line:84% What's at work there more than anything is the rhythm, 00:52:23.770 --> 00:52:25.780 align:middle line:84% changing the rhythm of the melody, 00:52:25.780 --> 00:52:28.660 align:middle line:84% and then having Philly is kind of unusual. 00:52:28.660 --> 00:52:31.870 align:middle line:84% But it's obviously set up as a drum feature kind of thing, 00:52:31.870 --> 00:52:34.300 align:middle line:90% to feature drums. 00:52:34.300 --> 00:52:37.030 align:middle line:84% And Miles-- I always found it interesting, 00:52:37.030 --> 00:52:41.312 align:middle line:84% there was an article in the 60's where Gil talked about-- 00:52:41.312 --> 00:52:43.270 align:middle line:84% if I ever live long enough, I'll do this stuff. 00:52:43.270 --> 00:52:48.400 align:middle line:84% But he said, it'll be great to have a version of this band 00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:50.920 align:middle line:84% where an orchestra plays Herbie's parts. 00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:54.440 align:middle line:84% And you still have Miles and Wayne and Tony and all that. 00:52:54.440 --> 00:52:58.437 align:middle line:84% And in a way, I think of Gone, it's an older band. 00:52:58.437 --> 00:52:59.770 align:middle line:90% But it's the same type of thing. 00:52:59.770 --> 00:53:02.470 align:middle line:84% It's taking a small group, the Miles small group thing, 00:53:02.470 --> 00:53:05.380 align:middle line:84% and basically giving a feature for the small group 00:53:05.380 --> 00:53:09.160 align:middle line:84% to work within the larger ensemble format. 00:53:09.160 --> 00:53:11.500 align:middle line:84% It would have been really interesting to see 00:53:11.500 --> 00:53:13.870 align:middle line:84% if the money had been there to have them be a touring 00:53:13.870 --> 00:53:16.078 align:middle line:84% band, you know, how much small group stuff could have 00:53:16.078 --> 00:53:18.237 align:middle line:90% or would have been worked. 00:53:18.237 --> 00:53:20.320 align:middle line:84% MARK HARVEY: Let's give Steve a round of applause. 00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:22.770 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:53:22.770 --> 00:53:26.000 align:middle line:90%