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PROFESSOR: My name
is Mark Harvey

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and I'm currently
teaching a course called

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Musical Improvisation.

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And this demonstration is part
of that course in collaboration

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with [? Mitas ?]
and Phil Scarff,

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who's the leader
of Natraj, which

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presented a great
concert yesterday.

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I know some of you were there,
but if you weren't there,

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maybe you'll be able
to hear Natraj again

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in another setting.

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And so, Ravikiran is
the other presenter.

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He'll be coming a little bit
late, but he will be here.

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So we're going to
begin with Phil.

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PHIL SCARFF: So
today's workshop is

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going to be on
application of frameworks

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from Indian classical music to
improvisation in other idioms.

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And in Indian classical music
there are two major systems.

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They're really two
different idioms.

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There's North Indian
classical music,

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which is also called
Hindustani music.

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And there's South
Indian classical music,

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which is also called
Carnatic music.

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So I'm going to be talking
about Hindustani music today.

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And our guest
Chitravina Ravikiran

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will be covering
Carnatic music after I

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talk about Hindustani music.

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So it'll be interesting to see
the contrast between the two.

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So you might want to
pay attention to that.

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So what we'll do is,
you've got a handout.

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I see people seem to have
that, so that's good.

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So I'm going to talk
about a number of things

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that are outlined
on the handout.

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I'm going to demonstrate
some stuff as we go through.

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If you have questions feel free
to raise your hand or whatever

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as we go, because I'd
rather take the questions

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as we go than lose people if
I'm going off on a tangent

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and you don't follow me.

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Probably other people have
similar questions, too.

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So what I'm going to
do to start with is,

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I'm going to present an
alap in raga Hamsadhwani.

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For those who were at
the concert yesterday,

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we played the piece "Red Swan,"
which is in raga Hamsadhwani.

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So this sort of ties
back to the concert.

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I'm not going to go
too much into the nuts

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and bolts of ragas.

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There'll be a little bit of
discussion here and there as

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needed to cover the
frameworks, but this

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is more about sort
of a higher level

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view of Indian
classical music and how

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the frameworks
from that music can

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be translated to
other situations.

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So I'm going to
play an alap, which

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is an exposition of the raga.

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It's done kind of solo with
no percussion, just melody.

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And it starts out without meter.

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And it can evolve
to a point where

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there's sort of an
internal meter going on,

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but there's still no percussion.

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So what I want you to
do is listen to this

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and pay attention to
some of the things

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like how we're
making use of range,

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note density,
rhythmic development.

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Well, mainly those things.

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We'll talk about some
other things afterwards.

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But listen for those
things and then we'll

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discuss them after I finish.

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[MUSIC]

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[APPLAUSE]

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Thank you.

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OK, so did anybody notice
anything about range--

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the use of range in that?

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Yeah.

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AUDIENCE: It seemed to start
in the lower end of the range

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and slowly build up to
through the entire range.

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PHIL SCARFF: Yeah, that's right.

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Very good.

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And this is very typical
of a Hindustani alap.

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It starts around the low tonic.

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It may kind of build into it
and work a little bit around it,

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but the focus is going to
be on introducing that tonic

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and sort of
establishing the tonic.

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Then, you can
optionally move down,

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which I did a little
bit of, and you

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can expand the range downward.

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Then you can start expanding up.

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And you go up kind
of sequentially.

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It can be note by note, it
can be phrase by phrase,

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but more or less it goes
sequentially upwards.

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And then as you do
this development,

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then the range expands.

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We're not moving a
confined range upward,

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we're expanding the range.

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So as this progresses, then, we
use more and more of the range.

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And then there's a resolution
point at the upper tonic.

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And then it can
optionally continue

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above that, which I
did a little bit of.

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And then the range again then
starts condensing back down

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and comes back to the Sa.

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And then, depending
upon the tradition,

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the performer may decide then
to do another section where

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it goes into more of a
rhythmic presentation.

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So there's like an
internal time going on.

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And so I did that next.

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And then, so what other
things did people notice?

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Are there any comments
about, say, density of notes?

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Yeah, go ahead.

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AUDIENCE: Well, not
about density of notes,

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but noticed that you only
used a few notes of the scale.

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I think four or five.

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PHIL SCARFF: Yeah, that's true.

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I used five notes because
this raga only has five notes.

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So, yes, it's a pentatonic
raga, so only five notes

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are there in the raga.

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So in most ragas, you don't go
outside whatever the notes are

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that are defined as
being part of the raga.

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You don't go outside those.

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Occasionally, there are
some ragas, exceptions,

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where you do.

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But for the most
part, you don't.

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So that's why I
stuck to five notes.

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But you're right
about that, good.

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That's good observation.

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So any observations
about note density?

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How it may have varied
or developed or evolved?

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Or, say, frequency of notes.

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How long did the notes last?

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Yes.

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AUDIENCE: The ones at the top
or the bottom of the range

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were usually longer.

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PHIL SCARFF: OK.

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That's a good observation.

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When I started out, I was
playing much more sustained.

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When I got up to the
high tonic, I also

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sustained a bit, that's true.

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And any other comments?

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Yes.

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AUDIENCE: It was progressive.

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So you started out
with long notes

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and you progressed and went into
faster and more diminutions.

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PHIL SCARFF: Yes, that's right.

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So the notes came
faster, at a faster pace.

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A higher density of notes.

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It started out with fewer notes,
much more contemplative kind

00:12:11.850 --> 00:12:12.800
of playing.

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And then as this
involved, then the notes

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came at a more rapid
pace gradually.

00:12:18.950 --> 00:12:20.590
So that's another thing.

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So note density's
another framework.

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Oh I forgot to mention.

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Now, what I wanted
to do is, I'm going

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to talk about each
of these frameworks.

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And I'm going to talk about what
is the tradition in Hindustani

00:12:31.105 --> 00:12:33.190
music, and then also
how can we extrapolate

00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:35.850
the tradition in other ways,
maybe changing a parameter

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here or there to use
the same kind of idea,

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but extrapolate it and
make it into something else

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and then also apply.

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You can apply the
tradition directly

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or you can apply
the extrapolation.

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Any of those things
are possible.

00:12:47.910 --> 00:12:50.020
So of course, we
talked about the range.

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That can be applied directly
to another improvisation

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in another style.

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But we can also make
changes to the range.

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So instead of starting
on a low note,

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we can start on a high note.

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And we can build the range down.

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Instead of building
the range up,

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we can build the range down.

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Or maybe we can start
with a very wide range

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and then condense
it down and then

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focus on a note at the end.

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So there's a lot of
different possibilities,

00:13:13.770 --> 00:13:15.540
things you can do
with the range.

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So that's the framework.

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And then the idea is, you
can use the parameters

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from the tradition,
or you can adjust them

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and make some
changes and come up

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with some new ideas for
other improvisations.

00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:28.060
So the same with note density.

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So does anybody have any ideas?

00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:31.105
What could we do with
note density that

00:13:31.105 --> 00:13:36.070
might make it a little different
from what you heard just now?

00:13:36.070 --> 00:13:38.240
Any ideas about what
we could do instead

00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:40.070
of starting with
long notes and then

00:13:40.070 --> 00:13:42.720
progressing to short notes
and faster lines, what

00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.120
are some other things that
one could do in a performance?

00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:45.510
Yes.

00:13:45.510 --> 00:13:47.340
AUDIENCE: Keep the same
density throughout.

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PHIL SCARFF: You could keep
the same density throughout.

00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:49.501
That's right.

00:13:49.501 --> 00:13:50.464
That's one option.

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Any other options
you can think of?

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Yeah.

00:13:52.070 --> 00:13:53.390
AUDIENCE: You could
play backwards.

00:13:53.390 --> 00:13:55.015
PHIL SCARFF: You
could do it backwards.

00:13:55.015 --> 00:13:55.525
Exactly.

00:13:55.525 --> 00:13:56.640
Yeah, exactly.

00:13:56.640 --> 00:13:57.750
Those are all great ideas.

00:13:57.750 --> 00:13:58.958
So you could do it backwards.

00:13:58.958 --> 00:14:02.085
You could start with very
fast lines, very rapid notes,

00:14:02.085 --> 00:14:03.970
very rapid passages,
high note density,

00:14:03.970 --> 00:14:08.750
and then work your way back down
to a very slow, longer notes,

00:14:08.750 --> 00:14:11.570
less dense presentation.

00:14:11.570 --> 00:14:17.090
So another thing is,
in Hindustani music

00:14:17.090 --> 00:14:18.770
we have a thing
called chalan, which

00:14:18.770 --> 00:14:22.280
refers to things like
characteristic phrases

00:14:22.280 --> 00:14:26.480
that are used over and
over in compositions

00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:29.780
and in improvisation, a
kind of thematic material

00:14:29.780 --> 00:14:30.570
that comes back.

00:14:30.570 --> 00:14:33.820
And so that can take the form
of actual melodic fragments.

00:14:33.820 --> 00:14:37.490
Or it can also be
rules like, you may not

00:14:37.490 --> 00:14:40.160
play a certain note in
ascent if you played

00:14:40.160 --> 00:14:42.200
another note before it,
and things like this

00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:43.900
can also be part of the chalan.

00:14:43.900 --> 00:14:46.654
So one thing that I was
doing, and I'm not sure

00:14:46.654 --> 00:14:48.070
how apparent this
might have been,

00:14:48.070 --> 00:14:52.795
but some phrases that are
common in Hamsadhwani.

00:14:52.795 --> 00:14:59.308
First of all, many times--
[PLAYS F-SHARP] we start

00:14:59.308 --> 00:15:02.300
on the third and
end on the second.

00:15:02.300 --> 00:15:05.330
So you heard me play a lot
of phrases that would start--

00:15:05.330 --> 00:15:08.430
[PLAYS F-SHARP]-- on this
pitch and end on [PLAYS E].

00:15:08.430 --> 00:15:10.414
So you can do this--
[PLAYS PHRASE]

00:15:10.414 --> 00:15:19.742
or [PLAYS MORE PHRASES]--
like that.

00:15:19.742 --> 00:15:21.950
And then there are some
characteristic phrases, also,

00:15:21.950 --> 00:15:23.648
like this-- [PLAYS PHRASES].

00:15:26.492 --> 00:15:28.920
Those two phrases
are very common.

00:15:28.920 --> 00:15:32.130
Even this-- [PLAYS PHRASE].

00:15:32.130 --> 00:15:33.759
So those things, you
heard those coming

00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:34.800
back over and over again.

00:15:34.800 --> 00:15:36.970
How obvious they
were, I'm not sure,

00:15:36.970 --> 00:15:40.320
but that's part of the
way we present the music.

00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:44.540
So we can take that idea
and, in another context,

00:15:44.540 --> 00:15:48.260
we can take like, say, a
small melodic fragment,

00:15:48.260 --> 00:15:54.000
and use that as like a little
theme you keep coming back to

00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.150
in the improvisation.

00:15:56.150 --> 00:16:01.409
So for example, if you
take-- let me turn this off.

00:16:01.409 --> 00:16:03.700
You take a tune-- in fact,
this happens in compositions

00:16:03.700 --> 00:16:04.200
quite a bit.

00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:08.070
So for example, a jazz
piece like "Tenor Madness"

00:16:08.070 --> 00:16:12.380
by Sonny Rollins uses
a thematic fragment

00:16:12.380 --> 00:16:13.470
that keeps coming back.

00:16:13.470 --> 00:16:15.720
And we can also use that as
a basis for improvisation.

00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.510
So I'll play that
composition and then play

00:16:18.510 --> 00:16:23.508
a little improv using that
kind of fragment as an idea.

00:16:23.508 --> 00:16:25.740
[PLAYS "TENOR MADNESS"]

00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:54.500
Something like that.

00:16:54.500 --> 00:16:57.220
You can take that little,
those themes-- [PLAYS THEME]

00:16:57.220 --> 00:16:59.900
and [PLAYS THEME],
which is a variation,

00:16:59.900 --> 00:17:03.390
and use that in build an
improvisation around that.

00:17:03.390 --> 00:17:04.990
So that's kind of
an extrapolation

00:17:04.990 --> 00:17:07.180
of the use of chalan
in Hindustani music.

00:17:10.060 --> 00:17:13.079
OK, now, towards the end,
did anybody notice anything

00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:15.569
different about what I did
towards the end of my alap

00:17:15.569 --> 00:17:17.844
presentation?

00:17:17.844 --> 00:17:20.010
AUDIENCE: You started moving
to a rhythm [INAUDIBLE]

00:17:20.010 --> 00:17:21.200
PHIL SCARFF: Yeah,
I moved into rhythm

00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:22.990
and I also started
repeating notes.

00:17:22.990 --> 00:17:26.695
Like-- [PLAYS EXAMPLES].

00:17:34.110 --> 00:17:35.860
So that's called jhala.

00:17:35.860 --> 00:17:40.529
And even in that case, I
started with a repetition.

00:17:40.529 --> 00:17:42.820
The pulse of the repetition,
or the rate of repetition,

00:17:42.820 --> 00:17:44.577
was a little bit slower.

00:17:44.577 --> 00:17:45.535
And then I built it up.

00:17:45.535 --> 00:17:47.670
I made it faster, and
then I made it quite fast

00:17:47.670 --> 00:17:48.630
towards the end.

00:17:48.630 --> 00:17:50.990
So even that, there
was a note density kind

00:17:50.990 --> 00:17:55.090
of progression in that
presentation as well.

00:17:55.090 --> 00:17:58.020
So for jhala, where
we're repeating

00:17:58.020 --> 00:18:00.209
notes in kind of a
rhythmic fashion,

00:18:00.209 --> 00:18:01.750
does anybody have
any ideas about how

00:18:01.750 --> 00:18:02.820
you might extrapolate?

00:18:02.820 --> 00:18:05.480
What could you do differently
using that kind of concept

00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:07.400
but changing a parameter
or two here or there?

00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.862
Does anybody have any ideas?

00:18:10.862 --> 00:18:11.362
Yeah.

00:18:11.362 --> 00:18:13.147
AUDIENCE: Can you move the
notes around, rather than

00:18:13.147 --> 00:18:13.797
repeat the same note?

00:18:13.797 --> 00:18:15.450
PHIL SCARFF: You can
move notes around, right.

00:18:15.450 --> 00:18:16.440
Rather than repeating
the same note,

00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:17.840
you could move notes around.

00:18:17.840 --> 00:18:18.970
That's a great idea.

00:18:18.970 --> 00:18:25.830
And another thought I had
was, instead of repeating them

00:18:25.830 --> 00:18:30.390
in more or less equal length,
you could vary the length.

00:18:30.390 --> 00:18:32.942
Like you could say, play
a long note, and then

00:18:32.942 --> 00:18:34.400
a shorter note,
and a shorter note,

00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.410
and a shorter-- so you
condense down the repetition.

00:18:37.410 --> 00:18:40.820
So maybe like-- [PLAYS EXAMPLE].

00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:55.140
Something like that, which
is not typically done.

00:18:55.140 --> 00:18:56.848
Usually when the jhala
starts, it kind of

00:18:56.848 --> 00:18:59.740
starts at a moderate clip.

00:18:59.740 --> 00:19:00.620
So that's one idea.

00:19:00.620 --> 00:19:01.911
Or you could even slow it down.

00:19:01.911 --> 00:19:04.860
You can start very fast and
come down to slower speed.

00:19:04.860 --> 00:19:07.214
So some things that can
be done with that, too,

00:19:07.214 --> 00:19:09.130
to change it around.

00:19:11.850 --> 00:19:15.234
So then one other one other
thing is rhythmic progression.

00:19:15.234 --> 00:19:16.900
And I think that was
already alluded to,

00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:23.580
but I started out in
a very rubato mode,

00:19:23.580 --> 00:19:27.240
where I was playing not
with really any time implied

00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:28.950
and with longer notes.

00:19:28.950 --> 00:19:33.440
And then as the note
density increased,

00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:35.780
after a while I went
into a time and started

00:19:35.780 --> 00:19:38.920
playing lines that were in time,
but kind of in a moderate clip.

00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:41.628
And then after that, I went into
the jhala and the jhala built

00:19:41.628 --> 00:19:45.620
up to a much faster
internal speed.

00:19:45.620 --> 00:19:48.340
So there was a progression
of rhythmic ideas

00:19:48.340 --> 00:19:52.279
as well, which, again, we can
change parameters on that.

00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:53.820
You can start with
a very fast rhythm

00:19:53.820 --> 00:19:55.944
and move to a slower rhythm
or something like that.

00:19:55.944 --> 00:19:58.840
Or you could be in time
and then go out of time--

00:19:58.840 --> 00:20:02.600
that kind of thing can be used.

00:20:02.600 --> 00:20:05.960
OK, now another thing that
is done, another framework,

00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:07.090
is called bistar.

00:20:07.090 --> 00:20:09.440
And in bistar, what we do,
it's like the beginning

00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:12.540
of the alap, where we're
playing rubato style,

00:20:12.540 --> 00:20:15.290
but it's done over time.

00:20:15.290 --> 00:20:18.950
So this would be after the
composition is introduced

00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:21.170
and after the
percussion comes in

00:20:21.170 --> 00:20:25.270
and there's a rhythmic cycle
going on at a certain speed.

00:20:25.270 --> 00:20:27.760
The performer may elect to
play in that speed, which

00:20:27.760 --> 00:20:31.126
would be very obvious, but then
you could also go out of time.

00:20:31.126 --> 00:20:33.250
While the time's going on,
you can play out of time

00:20:33.250 --> 00:20:34.030
on top of that.

00:20:34.030 --> 00:20:35.630
That's called bistar.

00:20:35.630 --> 00:20:37.940
I guess I won't try to
demonstrate that right now,

00:20:37.940 --> 00:20:40.030
but that's another
idea that can be used.

00:20:43.430 --> 00:20:46.540
OK then, there's a
technique called gatkari.

00:20:46.540 --> 00:20:50.030
And the gat means the
composition and kari

00:20:50.030 --> 00:20:51.300
means, like, play.

00:20:51.300 --> 00:20:53.290
So you play with the
composition is basically

00:20:53.290 --> 00:20:54.440
what it means, literally.

00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:57.520
So in this case, I haven't
played the composition yet.

00:20:57.520 --> 00:21:00.730
So what I'll do is I'll play
for you now just the first line

00:21:00.730 --> 00:21:02.800
of a simple composition
in Hamsadhwani.

00:21:02.800 --> 00:21:04.625
And this is in a 16 beat cycle.

00:21:07.850 --> 00:21:10.325
[PLAYS MUSIC]

00:21:30.784 --> 00:21:33.380
So that's the first
line of the composition.

00:21:33.380 --> 00:21:35.500
So traditionally,
what can happen is,

00:21:35.500 --> 00:21:38.030
you can take a line
of the composition,

00:21:38.030 --> 00:21:41.405
and in that cycle of 16
beats, part of the cycle,

00:21:41.405 --> 00:21:43.780
you play the composition and
then, for part of the cycle,

00:21:43.780 --> 00:21:44.720
improvise.

00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:46.800
So for example, you could
play the first eight

00:21:46.800 --> 00:21:47.860
beats of the composition.

00:21:47.860 --> 00:21:49.318
And then improvise
for eight beats.

00:21:49.318 --> 00:21:50.180
That adds up to 16.

00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:52.580
And then you keep
repeating that.

00:21:52.580 --> 00:21:56.110
So it stays aligned with the
cycle of the composition.

00:21:56.110 --> 00:21:58.365
So I'll just demonstrate a
little of that right now.

00:21:58.365 --> 00:22:01.335
[PLAYS EXAMPLE]

00:22:18.980 --> 00:22:22.980
So that's an idea that's
called gatkari, or a framework.

00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:30.525
And now, one thing we could
do to change it up-- well,

00:22:30.525 --> 00:22:31.150
let me ask you.

00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:32.110
What ideas do you have?

00:22:32.110 --> 00:22:32.910
What could be done?

00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:34.250
Can you think of
any ideas on how

00:22:34.250 --> 00:22:36.333
you might change a parameter
to make it different?

00:22:39.259 --> 00:22:39.800
Any thoughts?

00:22:39.800 --> 00:22:40.383
Yes, go ahead.

00:22:40.383 --> 00:22:42.650
AUDIENCE: Rather than coming
back to the first half,

00:22:42.650 --> 00:22:43.858
come back to the second half.

00:22:43.858 --> 00:22:45.690
PHIL SCARFF: Yeah,
that's right, exactly.

00:22:45.690 --> 00:22:47.440
You can even come back
to different points

00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.560
in the composition.

00:22:48.560 --> 00:22:50.980
So the first time
through the cycle,

00:22:50.980 --> 00:22:53.390
maybe you improvise on
the last eight beats.

00:22:53.390 --> 00:22:56.390
Then maybe next time
you start on beat five.

00:22:56.390 --> 00:22:58.460
And maybe you go for
four beats and then

00:22:58.460 --> 00:22:59.400
you come back to
the composition.

00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:00.105
So you could do that.

00:23:00.105 --> 00:23:02.271
You kind of mix it up and
improvise, come in and out

00:23:02.271 --> 00:23:04.190
and improvise in
different sections.

00:23:04.190 --> 00:23:05.950
That would be a way
to extrapolate that.

00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:14.110
OK, and now there's another
framework called layakari.

00:23:14.110 --> 00:23:18.120
And laya has to do
with the rhythm,

00:23:18.120 --> 00:23:19.400
and again kari is like play.

00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:21.050
So this is like rhythm play.

00:23:21.050 --> 00:23:25.630
So in this framework,
what is done is,

00:23:25.630 --> 00:23:28.529
the performer will play
different rhythmic patterns

00:23:28.529 --> 00:23:29.570
or rhythmic combinations.

00:23:32.600 --> 00:23:37.170
There's more emphasis on rhythm
in this particular framework.

00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:41.480
So I've given in a
handout a few examples.

00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:46.910
But basically, let's
take this 16-beat cycle.

00:23:52.150 --> 00:23:55.300
I think it might make sense if
we have people clap for this.

00:23:55.300 --> 00:23:55.800
One second.

00:23:55.800 --> 00:23:57.230
I'll show you a
clapping pattern.

00:24:02.850 --> 00:24:07.000
So in this rhythmic cycle,
which is called tintal,

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:09.940
the typical clapping
pattern is pretty simple.

00:24:09.940 --> 00:24:16.546
It goes like this-- [CLAPS]
1, 2 3, 4, [CLAPS] 5, 6, 7, 8,

00:24:16.546 --> 00:24:20.200
[UPSIDE-DOWN CLAP] 9, 10, 11,
12, [CLAPS] 13, 14, 15, 16.

00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:20.920
And [CLAPS] 1.

00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:23.750
So we're clapping
every four beats.

00:24:23.750 --> 00:24:27.580
And the third clap
is done as a wave,

00:24:27.580 --> 00:24:29.460
or upside down-- you
flip your hand over.

00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:31.720
So everybody do this with me.

00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:34.264
Let's see-- I'll
just count four beats

00:24:34.264 --> 00:24:36.180
and we'll start at the
beginning of the cycle.

00:24:36.180 --> 00:24:40.340
One, two, three, four--
[CLAPS] 1, 2, 3, 4, [CLAPS] 5,

00:24:40.340 --> 00:24:43.820
6, 7, 8, [CLAPS] 9,
10, 11, 12 [CLAPS] 13,

00:24:43.820 --> 00:24:47.660
14, 15, 16. [CLAPS]
2, 3, 4, [CLAPS]

00:24:47.660 --> 00:24:52.250
6, 7, 8, [CLAPS] 10, 11,
12, [CLAPS] 14, 15, 16.

00:24:52.250 --> 00:24:52.980
OK, good.

00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:54.480
Now, what I'm going
to ask you to do

00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:56.800
is do that clapping
pattern while I play.

00:24:56.800 --> 00:25:00.250
So keep the time going.

00:25:00.250 --> 00:25:04.250
So what I'll do is, I'll play
a few rhythmic combinations

00:25:04.250 --> 00:25:08.280
and I'll play some
of them slowly,

00:25:08.280 --> 00:25:10.180
using quarter
notes, essentially,

00:25:10.180 --> 00:25:13.750
just so you can hear more
easily how they work.

00:25:13.750 --> 00:25:18.000
And then I'll play some faster,
also, more like eighth notes.

00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:20.272
So it'll give you
a little more sense

00:25:20.272 --> 00:25:21.480
of how it might be performed.

00:25:25.260 --> 00:25:27.340
I'll start off with
simple ones and make

00:25:27.340 --> 00:25:28.892
it a little more
complicated as I go.

00:25:31.670 --> 00:25:34.199
So I'll give you four
beats, and I'll probably

00:25:34.199 --> 00:25:36.490
play the composition once or
twice just to get started.

00:25:36.490 --> 00:25:40.800
But I'll give you four beats and
we'll start the clapping, OK?

00:25:40.800 --> 00:25:42.575
One, two, three, four.

00:25:42.575 --> 00:25:45.050
[PLAYS MUSIC WITH STUDENTS
 CLAPPING]

00:26:33.910 --> 00:26:36.110
OK, good.

00:26:36.110 --> 00:26:38.560
So that's some examples
of different ways

00:26:38.560 --> 00:26:39.960
you can set the rhythm.

00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:42.800
You can also leave out,
in these patterns--

00:26:42.800 --> 00:26:45.410
Well, actually, let me
play one or two more.

00:26:45.410 --> 00:26:49.376
So for example, if you take the
one where I did three, three,

00:26:49.376 --> 00:26:53.551
three, three, and four,
altogether it comes out to 16.

00:26:53.551 --> 00:26:55.300
So I did three, three,
three, three, four.

00:26:55.300 --> 00:26:57.660
So what you can do
is, if you leave out

00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:02.600
the first note in each
set, it's like a variation.

00:27:02.600 --> 00:27:05.460
So let's do the
clapping pattern again.

00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:11.210
One, two, three, four.
[CLAPPING STARTS]

00:27:11.210 --> 00:27:14.514
First I'll play the whole thing,
then I'll leave out the note.

00:27:14.514 --> 00:27:16.999
[PLAYING MUSIC]

00:27:38.410 --> 00:27:42.390
It's a little hard to
line up the clapping

00:27:42.390 --> 00:27:46.100
with the improvisation
there, but that was the idea.

00:27:46.100 --> 00:27:48.770
And so you can take that thing.

00:27:48.770 --> 00:27:52.080
Now, does anybody have any ideas
for how to extrapolate that.

00:27:55.980 --> 00:27:56.990
Yes.

00:27:56.990 --> 00:27:59.490
AUDIENCE: You could, rather
than be in just a 16-beat cycle,

00:27:59.490 --> 00:28:01.490
go further [INAUDIBLE].

00:28:01.490 --> 00:28:03.750
PHIL SCARFF: Yeah, sure,
absolutely you could.

00:28:03.750 --> 00:28:05.550
You could do two cycles.

00:28:05.550 --> 00:28:07.390
You could do whatever,
yeah, that's true.

00:28:07.390 --> 00:28:09.100
You can make it
a longer pattern.

00:28:09.100 --> 00:28:12.320
I'll say that would
be probably considered

00:28:12.320 --> 00:28:13.540
to be part of the tradition.

00:28:13.540 --> 00:28:15.800
It's not really exactly
an extrapolation

00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:16.830
outside the tradition.

00:28:16.830 --> 00:28:19.510
But yes, that's a great idea.

00:28:19.510 --> 00:28:21.370
So it's something
to think about.

00:28:21.370 --> 00:28:24.080
This one, I haven't
really come up

00:28:24.080 --> 00:28:27.190
with any brilliant ideas
for how to extrapolate this,

00:28:27.190 --> 00:28:32.820
but I'm sure that in this room
there's enough mental capacity

00:28:32.820 --> 00:28:36.310
to think of some other
ways of doing this.

00:28:36.310 --> 00:28:39.840
So I'll leave that to
you to think about.

00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:41.800
OK, now a few other examples.

00:28:41.800 --> 00:28:44.500
There's a technique called
tans, or a framework

00:28:44.500 --> 00:28:46.790
called tans, which are
basically fast lines.

00:28:46.790 --> 00:28:48.939
And there are different
ways to build tans.

00:28:48.939 --> 00:28:50.730
So I'm going to
demonstrate a few of those.

00:28:50.730 --> 00:28:54.710
So first of all, you can use
just a limited number of notes,

00:28:54.710 --> 00:28:57.580
like, say, three or four
notes to construct tans.

00:28:57.580 --> 00:28:59.756
So then it's like,
in a confined range,

00:28:59.756 --> 00:29:01.380
you're playing sort
of a rapid passage.

00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:05.082
So something like this

00:29:05.082 --> 00:29:07.974
[PLAYS EXAMPLE]

00:29:14.050 --> 00:29:17.810
Something like that
is a confined range.

00:29:17.810 --> 00:29:20.400
And so what could
we do with that?

00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:22.810
Well, I'm going to
kind of move along

00:29:22.810 --> 00:29:24.700
because we need to
switch over to Ravikiran

00:29:24.700 --> 00:29:25.850
in a couple of minutes.

00:29:25.850 --> 00:29:28.330
So some ideas there.

00:29:28.330 --> 00:29:30.550
You could take some tones.

00:29:30.550 --> 00:29:34.290
Now, notice I used all
adjacent tones in the scale.

00:29:34.290 --> 00:29:37.070
So you could take some
non-adjacent tones, maybe.

00:29:37.070 --> 00:29:40.180
Three non-adjacent tones,
maybe with larger intervals

00:29:40.180 --> 00:29:42.500
in between, and
use those instead.

00:29:42.500 --> 00:29:44.730
Something like that is a
way to extrapolate that.

00:29:44.730 --> 00:29:48.010
Then we have tans that
expand and contract.

00:29:48.010 --> 00:29:50.462
So let me play an
example of that.

00:29:50.462 --> 00:29:52.917
[PLAYS EXAMPLE]

00:30:04.210 --> 00:30:08.720
So there I started
low, I expanded up

00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:10.250
a little bit above
the high tonic,

00:30:10.250 --> 00:30:11.590
and then came back down again.

00:30:11.590 --> 00:30:12.940
So expanding, contracting.

00:30:12.940 --> 00:30:16.590
You can contract, expand,
those kind of things.

00:30:16.590 --> 00:30:21.340
Some ideas for how
to extrapolate that.

00:30:21.340 --> 00:30:23.540
OK, instead of
going in sequence,

00:30:23.540 --> 00:30:25.720
maybe go out of sequence.

00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:28.740
So instead of sequentially
expanding, maybe

00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:31.642
you start with a small range,
then go to a large range,

00:30:31.642 --> 00:30:33.850
then maybe a medium range,
then an even bigger range,

00:30:33.850 --> 00:30:36.330
or something like that,
so you kind of mix it up.

00:30:36.330 --> 00:30:38.940
It's an idea for
extrapolating that.

00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:41.940
Then we have a type of tan
which is called a palta tan.

00:30:41.940 --> 00:30:43.720
Here we take a short
melodic fragment

00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:46.570
and repeat it going
up and down the scale,

00:30:46.570 --> 00:30:49.700
making any necessary adjustments
to accommodate the chalan.

00:30:49.700 --> 00:30:52.820
So for example, if we take
a simple pattern like this--

00:30:52.820 --> 00:30:56.400
[PLAYS PATTERN] three notes--
we can make a tan out of that.

00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:58.329
So I'll just demonstrate
how that works.

00:30:58.329 --> 00:31:00.824
[PLAYS EXAMPLE]

00:31:08.102 --> 00:31:09.460
So something like that.

00:31:09.460 --> 00:31:12.510
Now, that could be
extrapolated by maybe,

00:31:12.510 --> 00:31:14.700
instead of going up
in a scalar fashion,

00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:15.890
you go up in intervals.

00:31:15.890 --> 00:31:18.220
Like you go up in
some sort of arpeggio.

00:31:18.220 --> 00:31:22.000
Or maybe, instead of
picking adjacent notes,

00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:24.211
you pick notes that have
intervals in between,

00:31:24.211 --> 00:31:26.460
and then you take that pattern
and move it up and down

00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:27.180
the scale.

00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:29.590
Things like that can
be done to extrapolate.

00:31:29.590 --> 00:31:33.180
Then finally, another type
of tan, which is frequently

00:31:33.180 --> 00:31:35.570
used to conclude a
segment-- so we've

00:31:35.570 --> 00:31:37.700
been doing these other
types of tans, confined

00:31:37.700 --> 00:31:39.746
range, expanding-contracting,
palta tans,

00:31:39.746 --> 00:31:40.870
different things like this.

00:31:40.870 --> 00:31:43.550
We may choose to conclude
that segment by just

00:31:43.550 --> 00:31:44.630
played a straight tan.

00:31:44.630 --> 00:31:47.080
It goes straight up or
straight down, pretty simple.

00:31:47.080 --> 00:31:53.840
[PLAYS EXAMPLE] Something
like that-- or [PLAYS EXAMPLE]

00:31:53.840 --> 00:31:56.550
to conclude a segment,
that's usually used.

00:31:56.550 --> 00:32:03.100
So that's pretty much the end
of my part of the presentation.

00:32:03.100 --> 00:32:08.690
Are there any other questions
before we move on to our guest?

00:32:08.690 --> 00:32:10.736
OK, yes, go ahead.

00:32:10.736 --> 00:32:14.002
AUDIENCE: Could you
chromaticize what you're doing?

00:32:14.002 --> 00:32:15.210
PHIL SCARFF: Yes, absolutely.

00:32:15.210 --> 00:32:16.700
AUDIENCE: With ornamentation?

00:32:16.700 --> 00:32:18.782
PHIL SCARFF: Oh, yeah.

00:32:18.782 --> 00:32:19.490
Absolutely, yeah.

00:32:19.490 --> 00:32:21.240
You can chromaticize it.

00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:23.910
I mean, this can be
applied to anything.

00:32:23.910 --> 00:32:26.030
So you could do
anything chromatically.

00:32:26.030 --> 00:32:29.510
You could use
chord progressions.

00:32:29.510 --> 00:32:31.190
It can be free form.

00:32:31.190 --> 00:32:33.060
You can move all around.

00:32:33.060 --> 00:32:35.980
Yeah, anything can be
done to extrapolate.

00:32:35.980 --> 00:32:38.800
It's really a wide
open scenario.

00:32:38.800 --> 00:32:39.650
Yeah.

00:32:39.650 --> 00:32:40.150
Yes.

00:32:40.150 --> 00:32:42.566
AUDIENCE: What's the instrument
that plays the background?

00:32:42.566 --> 00:32:45.210
PHIL SCARFF: Oh, this is
an electronic tambura,

00:32:45.210 --> 00:32:47.210
which takes the place of
the real tambura, which

00:32:47.210 --> 00:32:50.420
is a stringed instrument which
is used to provide a drone.

00:32:50.420 --> 00:32:52.530
In Indian classical
music, we always

00:32:52.530 --> 00:32:55.450
have a drone going on while
the music is happening.

00:32:55.450 --> 00:32:57.826
AUDIENCE: And is it this
resonant in the actual tambura?

00:32:57.826 --> 00:32:59.075
PHIL SCARFF: Yeah, it is very.

00:32:59.075 --> 00:33:02.430
Yeah, it is really
quite resonant, yes.

00:33:02.430 --> 00:33:03.256
Yes.

00:33:03.256 --> 00:33:07.720
AUDIENCE: This might be
slightly off topic, but what

00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:10.944
are the similarities and
differences between chord

00:33:10.944 --> 00:33:14.680
progressions in jazz versus
using a raga in Indian music?

00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:19.060
PHIL SCARFF: Right,
so the two idioms

00:33:19.060 --> 00:33:21.010
are very similar
in a lot of ways.

00:33:21.010 --> 00:33:25.230
And so the way I would say you
compare a chord progression

00:33:25.230 --> 00:33:27.965
to Indian music in,
let's say, jazz, right?

00:33:27.965 --> 00:33:29.340
That's what you're
talking about.

00:33:29.340 --> 00:33:33.320
So in a jazz composition,
you'll have a fixed length.

00:33:33.320 --> 00:33:35.880
Like it might be 32
bars, for example.

00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:37.680
And it has a particular
chord progression

00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:39.300
that lasts for that 32 bars.

00:33:39.300 --> 00:33:41.070
And then the cycle
begins again, and it

00:33:41.070 --> 00:33:42.830
keeps on cycling through.

00:33:42.830 --> 00:33:44.750
So in Indian classical
music, the analogy

00:33:44.750 --> 00:33:47.130
is you have the tal, which
is the rhythmic cycle.

00:33:47.130 --> 00:33:49.599
And that rhythmic cycle
has a specific structure

00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:51.390
which goes on for
whatever number of beats.

00:33:51.390 --> 00:33:53.100
It may be 16 beats
such as tintal,

00:33:53.100 --> 00:33:56.830
which we got a very slight
introduction to today.

00:33:56.830 --> 00:33:58.580
And that keeps
repeating over and over.

00:33:58.580 --> 00:34:00.920
So the tal becomes
the structure.

00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:04.180
And the tabla-- in
my interpretation

00:34:04.180 --> 00:34:07.520
here, the tabla, which
is the percussion that

00:34:07.520 --> 00:34:11.780
would perform the tal, is
playing specific strokes.

00:34:11.780 --> 00:34:15.089
So for example in tintal,
the strokes go like this.

00:34:15.089 --> 00:34:17.630
I can verbalize the strokes that
would be played on the drum.

00:34:17.630 --> 00:34:23.429
It goes-- dah, din, din, dah,
dah, din, din, dah, dah, tin,

00:34:23.429 --> 00:34:27.370
tin, tah, tah, din din, dah.

00:34:27.370 --> 00:34:30.550
Those are the 16 beats
that define tintal.

00:34:30.550 --> 00:34:35.159
So those strokes work
in analogous fashion

00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:36.659
to a chord progression
in jazz, so

00:34:36.659 --> 00:34:38.670
that it defines where
you are in the cycle

00:34:38.670 --> 00:34:42.290
and when you're coming back
to the beginning of the cycle.

00:34:42.290 --> 00:34:44.590
Any other questions?

00:34:44.590 --> 00:34:48.362
OK, great, so let's
have Ravikiran come up.

00:34:48.362 --> 00:34:49.775
PROFESSOR: Thanks, Phil Scarff.

00:34:51.904 --> 00:34:52.904
PHIL SCARFF: Yeah, yeah.

00:34:52.904 --> 00:34:56.210
The pitches are
essentially the same.

00:34:56.210 --> 00:34:59.500
But they're slightly different,
because the tuning's not

00:34:59.500 --> 00:35:01.370
identical.

00:35:01.370 --> 00:35:05.500
In Indian classical music we
don't use even-tempered tuning.

00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:09.540
So it's sort of
related to just tuning,

00:35:09.540 --> 00:35:11.175
but it's not just
tuning, either.

00:35:11.175 --> 00:35:12.680
It depends on the raga.

00:35:12.680 --> 00:35:14.700
So there's slight
differences in the notes,

00:35:14.700 --> 00:35:16.410
depending on the raga.

00:35:16.410 --> 00:35:19.410
But pretty much it's the
same 12 chromatic pitches.

00:35:23.517 --> 00:35:25.100
So for example, one
thing that happens

00:35:25.100 --> 00:35:28.160
is, the major third is one
of the big discrepancies.

00:35:28.160 --> 00:35:31.360
In the even-tempered
system, the major third

00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:34.540
is, I think, 14 cents above
the major third that's

00:35:34.540 --> 00:35:36.370
used in Indian
classical music, which

00:35:36.370 --> 00:35:39.120
is more of a just major third.

00:35:39.120 --> 00:35:41.730
And a similar thing happens
to the major seventh

00:35:41.730 --> 00:35:44.010
because it's related
to the fifth.

00:35:44.010 --> 00:35:47.010
See, the root and the fifth
would be justly tuned,

00:35:47.010 --> 00:35:48.810
as opposed to even tempered.

00:35:48.810 --> 00:35:51.250
So then the fifth, being
justly tuned from the root,

00:35:51.250 --> 00:35:53.520
is the major third
below the seventh.

00:35:53.520 --> 00:35:57.655
So the seventh also is much
flatter-- the natural seventh.

00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:01.089
All set?

00:36:01.089 --> 00:36:02.380
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN: Yes, sir.

00:36:06.200 --> 00:36:08.550
So good afternoon and--
can you all hear me?

00:36:13.290 --> 00:36:17.590
So I think the
introduction that Phil

00:36:17.590 --> 00:36:21.970
gave toward
improvisational techniques

00:36:21.970 --> 00:36:25.100
in the North Indian
system, much of it actually

00:36:25.100 --> 00:36:27.480
holds good in the South Indian
system of Carnatic music,

00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:29.010
as well.

00:36:29.010 --> 00:36:37.420
Carnatic is probably about
2000, 2500 years old system.

00:36:37.420 --> 00:36:43.440
The origins can be traced
back to the era of the vedas

00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:45.530
and so forth in India.

00:36:45.530 --> 00:36:55.050
But somewhere along the line,
probably around the 1300s,

00:36:55.050 --> 00:37:01.590
India actually developed two
distinct classical systems.

00:37:01.590 --> 00:37:03.370
This was also
around the time when

00:37:03.370 --> 00:37:06.590
there was a lot
of Persian guests

00:37:06.590 --> 00:37:08.790
in the northern part of India.

00:37:08.790 --> 00:37:13.774
So a lot of imports happened,
and a kind of a hybrid culture

00:37:13.774 --> 00:37:15.440
developed in the
northern part of India.

00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.590
That's why the two systems
of music, even today,

00:37:18.590 --> 00:37:21.270
they have a lot of common
concepts, common roots,

00:37:21.270 --> 00:37:24.900
common ideas, common ideals.

00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:31.360
But the manner in which they
have evolved and developed

00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:35.570
have varied about 700
years down the line.

00:37:35.570 --> 00:37:39.610
So now, the concept
of improvisation,

00:37:39.610 --> 00:37:44.986
if you can just summarize it,
it can either be purely melodic,

00:37:44.986 --> 00:37:50.250
or it could be melo-rhythmic,
or it could be purely rhythmic.

00:37:50.250 --> 00:37:54.150
So that's what it boils down
to in most system of music.

00:37:54.150 --> 00:37:58.270
And so the example that Phil
played of the first period,

00:37:58.270 --> 00:38:09.280
like the time, cycle bound but
there's no rhythm, [INAUDIBLE]

00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:11.340
like the freestyle
improvisation,

00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:15.510
the pure melodic
one, the alapana.

00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:19.710
He explained to you
how beautifully it's

00:38:19.710 --> 00:38:22.280
organized in a particular
manner from the lower notes

00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:24.150
to the higher notes
and from slow speed

00:38:24.150 --> 00:38:26.495
to the fastest speeds
in Hindustani music.

00:38:26.495 --> 00:38:30.620
In Carnatic music, in fact some
of the discussions about how

00:38:30.620 --> 00:38:35.130
it can be extrapolated were
happening, I noticed that.

00:38:35.130 --> 00:38:37.020
But in Carnatic music,
many of these things

00:38:37.020 --> 00:38:39.560
are already applied, in the
sense that, you don't always

00:38:39.560 --> 00:38:40.980
start from the lower notes.

00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:43.984
You have several
actual situations

00:38:43.984 --> 00:38:45.400
where you start
from higher notes,

00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:49.190
or you actually render
in faster speeds first

00:38:49.190 --> 00:38:51.010
and then you just
come down and finish

00:38:51.010 --> 00:38:53.810
with tranquil kind
of a feel to it.

00:38:53.810 --> 00:38:59.040
Or the other possibility
which can also happen

00:38:59.040 --> 00:39:02.560
is the interspersing
of these all the time.

00:39:02.560 --> 00:39:05.320
So there are times when
you just keep interspersing

00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:08.980
the fast and slow phrases
through the improvisation.

00:39:08.980 --> 00:39:10.805
Now, I'll just give
an example of that.

00:39:10.805 --> 00:39:12.300
Can you hear well
the instrument?

00:39:17.136 --> 00:39:20.112
[PLAYS EXAMPLE]

00:39:50.970 --> 00:39:54.710
So here you see higher octave,
lower octaves fast, slow,

00:39:54.710 --> 00:39:59.350
everything happening as
the musical dynamics keep

00:39:59.350 --> 00:40:02.310
evolving during the course
of the improvisation.

00:40:02.310 --> 00:40:06.900
This is very typical in many
Carnatic ragas, when you do not

00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:08.880
really start in a slow fashion.

00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.370
But the slow to
fast, low to high

00:40:12.370 --> 00:40:14.190
also holds good in many cases.

00:40:14.190 --> 00:40:16.779
Probably about 50-60%
of the improvisation

00:40:16.779 --> 00:40:18.820
that we do in Carnatic
music, pure improvisation,

00:40:18.820 --> 00:40:21.480
we do that same
kind of development.

00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:23.480
But there are
exceptions like this,

00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:28.680
but the exception has a good
percentage of about 30-40%

00:40:28.680 --> 00:40:30.070
in Carnatic.

00:40:30.070 --> 00:40:31.910
So that's one of the things.

00:40:31.910 --> 00:40:35.786
And then if you're looking at
pure rhythmic improvisation--

00:40:35.786 --> 00:40:38.160
today we are not having any
percussion instruments for me

00:40:38.160 --> 00:40:39.826
to actually demonstrate
that part of it,

00:40:39.826 --> 00:40:46.810
but it's very, very exciting,
very involved and very well

00:40:46.810 --> 00:40:49.670
defined concepts of rhythm.

00:40:49.670 --> 00:40:53.070
So let's actually go to the
melo-rhythmic part of it.

00:40:53.070 --> 00:40:55.170
Prior to that, I'll
also give a parallel

00:40:55.170 --> 00:41:00.410
of what Phil showed in
the jor and the jhala

00:41:00.410 --> 00:41:02.640
kind of improvisation,
where we actually

00:41:02.640 --> 00:41:07.120
do a similar kind of
development in Carnatic also.

00:41:07.120 --> 00:41:09.350
It's like, there is
an element of rhythm,

00:41:09.350 --> 00:41:11.472
but it's not like cyclic rhythm.

00:41:11.472 --> 00:41:32.280
[TUNING INSTRUMENT]

00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:36.910
This instrument
is the chitravina.

00:41:36.910 --> 00:41:39.829
Chitravina is like
a 20-string slide.

00:41:39.829 --> 00:41:41.870
As you can all see, the
technique of playing this

00:41:41.870 --> 00:41:43.780
is very simple.

00:41:43.780 --> 00:41:47.040
I'm sure that all of you
can do this in no time.

00:41:47.040 --> 00:41:49.920
So all we do is just
slide this on the thing

00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.290
and we get the notes.

00:41:52.290 --> 00:41:56.590
I'll just show this example
of non-cyclic rhythm

00:41:56.590 --> 00:42:01.780
but still some kind of
structured improvisation.

00:42:01.780 --> 00:42:03.590
This is known as tanam
in Carnatic music.

00:42:03.590 --> 00:42:05.287
It's slightly
distinct from the tan

00:42:05.287 --> 00:42:07.040
that you just heard
in Hindustani,

00:42:07.040 --> 00:42:09.060
where it's more
composition based.

00:42:09.060 --> 00:42:11.810
They also have the
composition percussion

00:42:11.810 --> 00:42:13.270
happening in that kind of thing.

00:42:13.270 --> 00:42:16.080
But here it can be without
the percussion also.

00:42:16.080 --> 00:42:18.144
[PLAYS EXAMPLE]

00:44:33.520 --> 00:44:35.200
Kind of thing.

00:44:35.200 --> 00:44:38.260
So this is like as
you will notice,

00:44:38.260 --> 00:44:41.620
there is the element
of rhythm, but it's not

00:44:41.620 --> 00:44:43.200
like a tangible rhythm.

00:44:43.200 --> 00:44:49.100
So this is like a semi-rhythmic
kind of improvisation.

00:44:49.100 --> 00:44:53.850
And then we have, the
composition typically starts.

00:44:53.850 --> 00:45:01.490
I suppose I should add here
that Carnatic music has

00:45:01.490 --> 00:45:03.650
several times only
the composition

00:45:03.650 --> 00:45:06.530
rendered with no improvisation.

00:45:06.530 --> 00:45:09.415
So there are times when
we only just interpret

00:45:09.415 --> 00:45:14.740
the composition, because
there's a very rich tradition

00:45:14.740 --> 00:45:18.980
of several kinds of different
musical forms, which

00:45:18.980 --> 00:45:21.100
are represented in a
typical Carnatic concert.

00:45:21.100 --> 00:45:25.970
It's almost like Western
classical in that sphere,

00:45:25.970 --> 00:45:28.340
except that there's no
harmony to the composition,

00:45:28.340 --> 00:45:30.520
it's all melodic compositions.

00:45:30.520 --> 00:45:34.040
And there's a lot of lyrics
also happening in many of them.

00:45:34.040 --> 00:45:36.610
So many times, the
improvisation could

00:45:36.610 --> 00:45:39.990
be optional in many
of these compositions.

00:45:39.990 --> 00:45:44.160
And in certain
times when we do, we

00:45:44.160 --> 00:45:46.040
can have a very
short improvisation.

00:45:46.040 --> 00:45:48.560
For example, it could
just be like a few seconds

00:45:48.560 --> 00:45:51.645
of the pure melodic
prelude that I just played.

00:45:51.645 --> 00:45:54.020
And then we just go
into the composition.

00:45:54.020 --> 00:45:57.050
And then we just move into
some improvisation alone

00:45:57.050 --> 00:45:59.420
or on top of the compositions.

00:45:59.420 --> 00:46:03.340
So now I'll just dwell on two
types of improvisation that's

00:46:03.340 --> 00:46:07.430
possible in the
melo-rhythmic manner.

00:46:07.430 --> 00:46:09.370
So once a piece starts,
the percussion joins,

00:46:09.370 --> 00:46:11.560
and so then we get
into the cyclic rhythm.

00:46:11.560 --> 00:46:16.120
Just like you just had this
clapping and finger counting

00:46:16.120 --> 00:46:18.920
happening in Hindustani, we have
the similar kind of structure.

00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:27.250
But what happens in Carnatic
is that you have the percussion

00:46:27.250 --> 00:46:29.820
not merely keeping
time but they also

00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:33.300
keep improvising on the
composition parallel

00:46:33.300 --> 00:46:34.800
to what we are
playing sometimes.

00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:36.841
So when you actually hear
it with the percussion,

00:46:36.841 --> 00:46:39.460
you can have a very different
kind of feel to the thing.

00:46:39.460 --> 00:46:43.020
But what I'll do now is just
demonstrate a simple tala

00:46:43.020 --> 00:46:46.880
like a parallel of the
tintal that you just heard.

00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:50.890
This is eight counts, so
it's known as Adi tala.

00:46:50.890 --> 00:46:54.460
So it's [CLAPS] one,
two, three, four,

00:46:54.460 --> 00:46:57.420
[CLAPS] five, six,
[CLAPS] seven, eight.

00:46:57.420 --> 00:47:01.060
So it's like, first a beat,
followed by three finger counts

00:47:01.060 --> 00:47:03.815
starting from the little
finger, and then a beat

00:47:03.815 --> 00:47:06.740
and a wave of the hand, another
beat and a wave of the hand.

00:47:06.740 --> 00:47:08.960
So you want to try it with me?

00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:15.460
So [CLAPS] one, two, three,
four, [CLAPS] five, six,

00:47:15.460 --> 00:47:17.340
[CLAPS] seven, eight.

00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:22.820
[CLAPS] One, two, three, four,
[CLAPS] five, six, [CLAPS]

00:47:22.820 --> 00:47:24.565
seven, eight.

00:47:24.565 --> 00:47:26.680
So this is one of the talas.

00:47:26.680 --> 00:47:30.340
I'll also just demonstrate
another simple tala.

00:47:30.340 --> 00:47:31.940
It's just three counts.

00:47:31.940 --> 00:47:34.140
[CLAPS] One, [CLAPS] two, three.

00:47:34.140 --> 00:47:36.730
Just two beats and
one wave of the hand.

00:47:36.730 --> 00:47:39.948
[CLAPS] One, [CLAPS] two,
three. [CLAPS] One, [CLAPS]

00:47:39.948 --> 00:47:41.410
two, three.

00:47:41.410 --> 00:47:43.540
So what I'll do is, I'll
take a composition in this

00:47:43.540 --> 00:47:47.070
just for contrast, take
a small part of this

00:47:47.070 --> 00:47:49.530
and just show how the
improvisation can happen.

00:47:49.530 --> 00:47:52.600
One of them is with the
lyrics, because a competition

00:47:52.600 --> 00:47:54.000
has lyrics.

00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:57.130
So a line from the competition
is taken and melodically

00:47:57.130 --> 00:48:00.430
developed, keeping the rhythm
and the lyrics constant.

00:48:00.430 --> 00:48:03.050
Only the melody is
skipped, changing.

00:48:03.050 --> 00:48:08.250
It's distinct from a melodic
variation in the context

00:48:08.250 --> 00:48:11.295
that a melodic variation can
still have a lot of closeness

00:48:11.295 --> 00:48:12.170
to the original line.

00:48:12.170 --> 00:48:15.265
But here, the whole thing
can change drastically

00:48:15.265 --> 00:48:16.640
from the original
melody, but you

00:48:16.640 --> 00:48:20.360
keep coming back to the
original refrain of the line

00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:21.980
that you took for
the improvisation.

00:48:21.980 --> 00:48:25.790
So I'll just take
one competition

00:48:25.790 --> 00:48:28.083
in the style of three counts
and just show it to you.

00:48:39.700 --> 00:48:42.235
So you all will
keep time with me?

00:48:42.235 --> 00:48:44.710
[CLAPS] One, [CLAPS] two, three.

00:48:44.710 --> 00:48:48.175
[CLAPS] [CLAPS] three.

00:48:48.175 --> 00:48:50.528
[PLAYS EXAMPLE]

00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:09.895
So this is the main line.

00:49:09.895 --> 00:49:13.830
[SINGS]

00:49:13.830 --> 00:49:16.760
So this particular
composition is in Sanskrit.

00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:18.700
[CONTINUES SINGING]

00:49:29.070 --> 00:49:31.920
So this line can
be then changed.

00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:33.620
[CONTINUES SINGING]

00:49:43.874 --> 00:49:45.290
So when I play an
instrument, I'll

00:49:45.290 --> 00:49:48.760
try and vocalize those
syllables with the kind

00:49:48.760 --> 00:49:51.640
of plucking that I do.

00:49:51.640 --> 00:49:53.892
[PLAYS]

00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:15.430
So I keep going back to that.

00:50:15.430 --> 00:50:17.910
Then a new round of
improvisation can start.

00:50:17.910 --> 00:50:20.862
[PLAYS]

00:50:45.460 --> 00:50:48.960
So this kind of improvisation
keeps happening many times.

00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:50.547
In a typical concert
in Carnatic you

00:50:50.547 --> 00:50:52.430
would also have a
melodic accompaniment,

00:50:52.430 --> 00:50:56.100
which is, 99 out of
100 times, a violin.

00:50:56.100 --> 00:51:01.880
The violin in is one of the
most common melodic accompanying

00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:03.790
instruments in Carnatic music.

00:51:03.790 --> 00:51:08.860
It's also a very often used
solo or duo instrument.

00:51:08.860 --> 00:51:12.380
Since about late
1700s the violin

00:51:12.380 --> 00:51:15.890
has been an integral part
of Carnatic music in India.

00:51:15.890 --> 00:51:18.730
So oftentimes when I
play, the accompanist

00:51:18.730 --> 00:51:20.280
will respond to
the improvisation

00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:23.529
in his or her own way
and then I continue.

00:51:23.529 --> 00:51:25.320
So it's almost like a
dialogue, an exchange

00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.249
is built up between the main
artist and that accompanist

00:51:28.249 --> 00:51:29.040
during these times.

00:51:29.040 --> 00:51:30.998
And the percussion, of
course, is very dynamic.

00:51:30.998 --> 00:51:36.120
So they keep having their
own fun when this happens.

00:51:36.120 --> 00:51:38.130
And then the other
kind of improvisation

00:51:38.130 --> 00:51:40.190
that can be possible in
a melo-rhythmic manner

00:51:40.190 --> 00:51:44.130
in Carnatic is the
sol-fa improvisation.

00:51:44.130 --> 00:51:47.060
Just like the do
re me in Western,

00:51:47.060 --> 00:51:49.970
there are seven
notes, fundamentally.

00:51:49.970 --> 00:51:54.235
They are known as sa,
re, ga, ma, pa, dha, ni.

00:51:54.235 --> 00:51:56.270
Those are the seven names.

00:51:56.270 --> 00:52:03.180
So many times we use those
notes themselves to improvise.

00:52:03.180 --> 00:52:04.730
[SINGS]

00:52:10.870 --> 00:52:14.770
So you just enunciate
those notes fast.

00:52:14.770 --> 00:52:17.240
In the typical instrument,
you can just create a stroke

00:52:17.240 --> 00:52:19.890
for every one of the notes.

00:52:19.890 --> 00:52:22.340
[PLAYS]

00:52:32.490 --> 00:52:36.559
So it can be just melodic.

00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:39.100
Sometimes you can have a lot of
interesting rhythmic patterns

00:52:39.100 --> 00:52:42.060
just like what you just saw--
maybe descending patterns,

00:52:42.060 --> 00:52:44.450
ascending patterns of
notes, or sometimes even

00:52:44.450 --> 00:52:45.360
kind of patterns.

00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:48.322
And I'll just demonstrate
some patterns.

00:52:48.322 --> 00:52:50.727
[PLAYS]

00:52:58.650 --> 00:53:01.300
So one two three one two three
one two three one two three

00:53:01.300 --> 00:53:04.450
one two three one two three
one two three-- [SINGS]

00:53:04.450 --> 00:53:06.360
they're just threes.

00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:07.540
[SINGS]

00:53:15.830 --> 00:53:18.620
So these are even patterns.

00:53:18.620 --> 00:53:20.890
But if you notice,
the song is actually

00:53:20.890 --> 00:53:25.840
starting-- it's like a
take off after 9 out of 12.

00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:30.530
That's where this is-- one
two three four one two three

00:53:30.530 --> 00:53:32.347
four five-- [SINGS].

00:53:32.347 --> 00:53:33.930
So that's where the
take off point is.

00:53:33.930 --> 00:53:36.346
So each time you ought to be
landing kind of clear on that

00:53:36.346 --> 00:53:37.670
particular after 9.

00:53:37.670 --> 00:53:41.680
Whatever improvisation we do,
it's like flying an aircraft.

00:53:41.680 --> 00:53:44.380
You can go all over the place,
but unless you land properly,

00:53:44.380 --> 00:53:47.380
it's going to be, you
know, an accident.

00:53:47.380 --> 00:53:49.930
So you ought to really
learn how to land correctly

00:53:49.930 --> 00:53:54.450
on the song in music
in this improvisation.

00:53:54.450 --> 00:53:58.300
So some of these landing points
could be pretty intricate.

00:53:58.300 --> 00:53:59.924
And then with the
intricate points,

00:53:59.924 --> 00:54:02.090
you can really build a lot
of beautiful, interesting

00:54:02.090 --> 00:54:04.250
mathematical patterns
which can be a lot of fun

00:54:04.250 --> 00:54:07.890
for the artists themselves
and for the listeners as well.

00:54:07.890 --> 00:54:10.730
Then I'll just demonstrate
some small other patterns.

00:54:13.250 --> 00:54:14.740
[SINGS]

00:54:21.470 --> 00:54:24.390
So this is like five
plus seven plus nine--

00:54:24.390 --> 00:54:26.960
kind of an ascending pattern.

00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:27.810
[SINGS]

00:54:38.500 --> 00:54:40.120
So again, it's
like, the reverse.

00:54:40.120 --> 00:54:42.460
Like nine, seven,
five, kind of thing.

00:54:42.460 --> 00:54:44.090
So you can have a lot of things.

00:54:44.090 --> 00:54:47.820
But everything I'm doing still
within this kind of framework

00:54:47.820 --> 00:54:51.590
of only four per beat
happening right now.

00:54:51.590 --> 00:54:55.300
Sometimes if the composition
starts on the beat,

00:54:55.300 --> 00:54:59.090
then you can even
change over from four.

00:54:59.090 --> 00:55:02.120
You can have fives, or
threes, or sevens, or nines,

00:55:02.120 --> 00:55:05.740
or so many other kinds of
pulse rate can be changed.

00:55:05.740 --> 00:55:07.220
For example, if
the same song were

00:55:07.220 --> 00:55:10.370
to be starting in a
different point on the beat--

00:55:10.370 --> 00:55:11.750
[SINGS]

00:55:23.630 --> 00:55:26.510
That means you're having
five per beat there.

00:55:26.510 --> 00:55:28.956
And then-- one two three
four five one two three four

00:55:28.956 --> 00:55:31.622
five one two three four five one
two three one two three one two

00:55:31.622 --> 00:55:33.914
three one two three one two
three one two three one two

00:55:33.914 --> 00:55:35.955
three four one two three
four one two three four.

00:55:35.955 --> 00:55:37.540
The tempo has to
be still constant,

00:55:37.540 --> 00:55:39.600
but within that, you
keep changing the thing.

00:55:39.600 --> 00:55:42.506
So in Carnatic music,
one of the key things

00:55:42.506 --> 00:55:44.130
which is distinct
from Hindustani music

00:55:44.130 --> 00:55:48.570
is, in Hindustani music
it's legal to accelerate

00:55:48.570 --> 00:55:50.440
doing the course
of the competition.

00:55:50.440 --> 00:55:52.540
So you start and
then the composition

00:55:52.540 --> 00:55:55.220
itself can be
accelerated en masse.

00:55:55.220 --> 00:55:58.250
But in Carnatic you'd still need
to maintain the basic tempo.

00:55:58.250 --> 00:56:00.750
But within that, you can
change the pulse rate

00:56:00.750 --> 00:56:03.880
and you can show
different kind of speeds.

00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:07.960
So I think I've covered
most of the basic things

00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:08.780
in this short time.

00:56:08.780 --> 00:56:12.360
So if you have any questions,
please feel free to.

00:56:15.735 --> 00:56:16.235
Yes.

00:56:16.235 --> 00:56:18.500
AUDIENCE: Is that the
standard way of playing it?

00:56:18.500 --> 00:56:21.290
So you always pluck with these
two fingers and mute with--

00:56:21.290 --> 00:56:23.050
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN: No, I
pluck with these two, actually.

00:56:23.050 --> 00:56:24.450
The first and the second finger.

00:56:24.450 --> 00:56:27.390
And this I use
sometimes to damp.

00:56:27.390 --> 00:56:30.120
So a note--
[PLAYS NOTE] So I can,

00:56:30.120 --> 00:56:34.393
if I want more staccato kind
of thing. [PLAYS STACCATO]

00:56:34.393 --> 00:56:35.860
AUDIENCE: Can you
use your thumb?

00:56:35.860 --> 00:56:38.840
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN: Thumb is
generally not so much played

00:56:38.840 --> 00:56:40.517
in actual things.

00:56:40.517 --> 00:56:42.600
I use the little finger
for strumming these drone,

00:56:42.600 --> 00:56:44.730
or rhythm, strings.

00:56:44.730 --> 00:56:48.280
Sometimes a thumb is-- actually
found thumb really should not

00:56:48.280 --> 00:56:52.210
be, if your technique is good,
you don't really use the thumb.

00:56:52.210 --> 00:56:56.550
In the left hand, I use it to
grip with these three fingers.

00:56:56.550 --> 00:56:59.480
And then these two
are used to dampen

00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:02.426
any unnecessary vibration
from the other side.

00:57:02.426 --> 00:57:04.378
[PLAYS]

00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:15.420
So this finger is a
very integral part

00:57:15.420 --> 00:57:17.350
of good slide technique,
in my opinion.

00:57:17.350 --> 00:57:20.210
Because if you don't
use this, you'll

00:57:20.210 --> 00:57:23.660
end up always hearing
a sort of monotonous

00:57:23.660 --> 00:57:26.080
sliding kind of quality to it.

00:57:26.080 --> 00:57:31.200
[PLAYS] Kind of thing.

00:57:31.200 --> 00:57:33.540
So if you want a very
gripping kind of music,

00:57:33.540 --> 00:57:36.310
sometimes this is a
very useful to employ.

00:57:40.247 --> 00:57:42.080
AUDIENCE: Is there any
underlying difference

00:57:42.080 --> 00:57:44.010
between the way
ragas are described

00:57:44.010 --> 00:57:46.505
in Hindustani versus
Carnatic music?

00:57:46.505 --> 00:57:48.130
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN:
Well, the concept

00:57:48.130 --> 00:57:51.710
of the raga structure
as an entity

00:57:51.710 --> 00:57:56.920
is the same for both, in
the sense that both of them

00:57:56.920 --> 00:58:00.630
have the same kind
of approach that it's

00:58:00.630 --> 00:58:04.260
like a melodic formula of
ascending and descending notes

00:58:04.260 --> 00:58:07.530
in a particular
sequence and pattern.

00:58:07.530 --> 00:58:11.300
And even a small change to
the sequence, an addition

00:58:11.300 --> 00:58:15.420
or edition can make
it a different raga.

00:58:15.420 --> 00:58:18.150
And that's actually the
million dollar question,

00:58:18.150 --> 00:58:24.300
because in the West, when
we think of a major scale,

00:58:24.300 --> 00:58:26.937
we may think of a
lot of variations

00:58:26.937 --> 00:58:28.520
within that particular
sequence, it'll

00:58:28.520 --> 00:58:29.890
still be within the scale.

00:58:29.890 --> 00:58:31.750
It will still be major scale.

00:58:31.750 --> 00:58:36.230
But in Indian music, because
it's all melodic development,

00:58:36.230 --> 00:58:38.280
you don't just think
of it as one scale.

00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:39.860
Even a small change
in the sequence

00:58:39.860 --> 00:58:42.705
make it a different raga.

00:58:42.705 --> 00:58:46.140
People actually have
asked me about this.

00:58:46.140 --> 00:58:48.360
A lot of my Western
contemporary musicians

00:58:48.360 --> 00:58:51.230
have come and asked me,
what is the whole rationale

00:58:51.230 --> 00:58:54.180
of just changing one note and
calling it a different raga,

00:58:54.180 --> 00:58:56.605
or altering the
sequence minutely,

00:58:56.605 --> 00:58:59.140
and how does it change
the whole thing?

00:58:59.140 --> 00:59:02.960
The analogy I can
give there, it's

00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:08.000
like a different shade
of the same color.

00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:10.210
If you look at an Adobe
Photoshop or something,

00:59:10.210 --> 00:59:14.640
you just have so many shades,
like a million shades of green.

00:59:14.640 --> 00:59:17.400
So the similar way, you can
have so many different shades

00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:18.460
of the major scale.

00:59:18.460 --> 00:59:22.660
So even altering a note here,
if you're a capable musician who

00:59:22.660 --> 00:59:25.385
is well-versed in
melodic development,

00:59:25.385 --> 00:59:27.510
then you can really create
so many different shades

00:59:27.510 --> 00:59:30.790
of the same thing just with a
small tweak in the sequence.

00:59:30.790 --> 00:59:33.270
And so that no two
sequences will be similar,

00:59:33.270 --> 00:59:37.890
if you are to explore it like
that, and take it on that path.

00:59:37.890 --> 00:59:41.100
And I'll just give you an
example, small example,

00:59:41.100 --> 00:59:43.172
but a fairly extreme one.

00:59:43.172 --> 00:59:45.290
[PLAYS SCALE]

00:59:49.140 --> 00:59:51.380
Basic major scale.

00:59:51.380 --> 00:59:54.055
Now--

00:59:54.055 --> 00:59:56.240
[PLAYS]

01:00:01.240 --> 01:00:03.210
So here, I only
changed the sequence.

01:00:03.210 --> 01:00:06.460
You still have all the notes
in both ascent and descent.

01:00:06.460 --> 01:00:08.350
[PLAYS]

01:00:20.460 --> 01:00:23.120
So it creates a
totally different kind

01:00:23.120 --> 01:00:26.100
of signature tune to
this particular raga.

01:00:26.100 --> 01:00:28.185
[PLAYS]

01:00:42.060 --> 01:00:44.560
So that's a totally different
shade of the same major scale.

01:00:44.560 --> 01:00:48.620
It can be a very
bouncy kind of cheer.

01:00:48.620 --> 01:00:51.720
It can be a very contained
kind of cheer, happiness.

01:00:51.720 --> 01:00:54.540
It can be an exciting
kind of happiness.

01:00:54.540 --> 01:00:56.830
It can be so many
different kinds of moods

01:00:56.830 --> 01:00:59.700
that you will be able to create
with a change in sequence.

01:00:59.700 --> 01:01:02.110
And that is one part
of the raga structure.

01:01:02.110 --> 01:01:06.550
The other thing that makes a
raga distinct from just a scale

01:01:06.550 --> 01:01:09.290
or a sequence
formula is the kind

01:01:09.290 --> 01:01:11.620
of oscillations and
the ornamentation

01:01:11.620 --> 01:01:15.550
that are in-built, or
embedded within the raga.

01:01:15.550 --> 01:01:17.930
So in Hindustani music,
your typical oscillations

01:01:17.930 --> 01:01:21.582
like the glide, the
mint, as they call it.

01:01:21.582 --> 01:01:23.040
In Carnatic, you
have what is known

01:01:23.040 --> 01:01:25.180
as the oscillation of a note.

01:01:25.180 --> 01:01:28.010
And this oscillation is
quite distinct from a vibrato

01:01:28.010 --> 01:01:30.510
or a tremolo or
something like that,

01:01:30.510 --> 01:01:35.710
because sometimes it can
be much wider amplitude.

01:01:35.710 --> 01:01:37.180
Now, the major
scale, so I'll just

01:01:37.180 --> 01:01:41.200
show how the second, fourth,
and sixth notes are oscillated.

01:01:41.200 --> 01:01:43.182
[PLAYS]

01:01:56.090 --> 01:01:59.110
So the second is oscillated
between the second

01:01:59.110 --> 01:01:59.820
and the third.

01:01:59.820 --> 01:02:03.590
[SINGS]

01:02:03.590 --> 01:02:06.520
[PLAYS]

01:02:24.148 --> 01:02:26.390
Even the sixth is
oscillated like that.

01:02:26.390 --> 01:02:29.150
And if you notice,
the seventh is

01:02:29.150 --> 01:02:34.620
given a force which propels
it almost to the next note.

01:02:34.620 --> 01:02:42.940
[PLAYS] So it's almost on
the higher tonic note itself.

01:02:42.940 --> 01:02:45.510
You don't play the seventh
flat in this particular raga.

01:02:45.510 --> 01:02:47.870
[PLAYS]

01:02:47.870 --> 01:02:51.272
You rarely play that seventh
in a pure manner in Carnatic.

01:02:51.272 --> 01:02:53.230
You play the third in a
pure manner many times,

01:02:53.230 --> 01:02:55.030
you just have the natural third.

01:02:55.030 --> 01:02:57.550
But very rarely the
seventh will be played just

01:02:57.550 --> 01:02:58.730
naturally as such.

01:02:58.730 --> 01:03:01.340
It'll be generally pushed
almost with a force.

01:03:01.340 --> 01:03:05.100
So the ornamentation is a
combination of grace and force

01:03:05.100 --> 01:03:06.530
in almost every system of music.

01:03:06.530 --> 01:03:09.390
It can either be grace or force.

01:03:09.390 --> 01:03:12.560
So the typical ornamentation
gives each raga

01:03:12.560 --> 01:03:15.530
a different kind of flavor.

01:03:15.530 --> 01:03:16.200
Yes, sir.

01:03:16.200 --> 01:03:17.075
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

01:03:23.655 --> 01:03:26.740
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN: No,
see, the technical term

01:03:26.740 --> 01:03:30.830
in Indian term, Indian parlance,
is either nadai or gati.

01:03:30.830 --> 01:03:31.960
Gati is Sanskrit.

01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:34.150
So it's like, one two three
four, one two three four

01:03:34.150 --> 01:03:35.200
is Chatusram.

01:03:35.200 --> 01:03:37.110
Tha ka dhi mi, tha ka
dhi mi tha ka dhi mi.

01:03:37.110 --> 01:03:40.380
All of these have technical
syllables and all of that.

01:03:40.380 --> 01:03:42.235
I'm just trying to
demystify most of this

01:03:42.235 --> 01:03:44.930
for you right now using
more simple terms.

01:03:44.930 --> 01:03:47.460
Tha ka dhi mi, tha ka dhi mi,
tha ka dhi mi, tha ka dhi mi.

01:03:47.460 --> 01:03:49.912
Tha ki ta, tha ki ta,
tha ki ta, tha ki ta.

01:03:49.912 --> 01:03:52.120
Tha ka tha ki ta, tha ka
tha ki ta, tha ka tha ki ta,

01:03:52.120 --> 01:03:52.670
tha ka tha ki ta.

01:03:52.670 --> 01:03:54.360
Tha ka dhi mi tha ki ta, tha ka
dhi mi tha ki ta, tha ka dhi mi

01:03:54.360 --> 01:03:55.300
tha ki ta, tha ka
dhi mi tha ki ta.

01:03:55.300 --> 01:03:56.586
Tha ka dhi mi tha ka tha ki ta,
tha ka dhi mi tha ka tha ki ta,

01:03:56.586 --> 01:03:58.550
Tha ka dhi mi tha ka tha ki ta.

01:03:58.550 --> 01:04:02.770
So all this is like four,
three, seven, five and nine,

01:04:02.770 --> 01:04:06.210
known as Chaturasram, Thisram,
Misram, Khandam, Sankeernam.

01:04:06.210 --> 01:04:09.760
These are the different kind of
pulse rates which are possible.

01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:11.670
These are the
traditional pulse rates

01:04:11.670 --> 01:04:13.790
that are generally
used in Indian music.

01:04:13.790 --> 01:04:15.610
Now, you can also
use, of course,

01:04:15.610 --> 01:04:19.080
people are using 11, 13, and
other kinds of pulse rates

01:04:19.080 --> 01:04:20.997
also in certain compositions.

01:04:20.997 --> 01:04:22.372
AUDIENCE: That's
a gati or nadai.

01:04:22.372 --> 01:04:24.247
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN:
That's a gati or nadai.

01:04:24.247 --> 01:04:25.637
In Sanskrit, gati means nadai.

01:04:29.460 --> 01:04:30.590
Yes.

01:04:30.590 --> 01:04:32.763
AUDIENCE: When you're
improvising outside

01:04:32.763 --> 01:04:36.312
of the Carnatic tradition,
such as a song like you

01:04:36.312 --> 01:04:39.335
did yesterday,
"Lonely Woman," how

01:04:39.335 --> 01:04:40.980
do you make your note choices?

01:04:40.980 --> 01:04:44.734
What sort of thought
process is involved in that?

01:04:44.734 --> 01:04:48.590
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN: Well,
when I play with musicians

01:04:48.590 --> 01:04:51.230
from other cultures,
from diverse cultures,

01:04:51.230 --> 01:04:55.300
my natural inclination
would be to see

01:04:55.300 --> 01:04:59.990
if it is like fitting into any
kind of particular sequence

01:04:59.990 --> 01:05:02.380
pattern, or what kind
of sequence dominates.

01:05:02.380 --> 01:05:05.890
So I'll almost think of
it like another raga.

01:05:05.890 --> 01:05:09.107
But many times, I'll identify
one particular sequence.

01:05:09.107 --> 01:05:11.440
Then I'll also know what notes
are outside the sequence,

01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:14.520
so I'll have a fair idea
of how the melody is.

01:05:14.520 --> 01:05:17.809
So that way, I think
Carnatic music--

01:05:17.809 --> 01:05:19.350
I mean this as an
objective statement

01:05:19.350 --> 01:05:20.976
not because I come
from the tradition--

01:05:20.976 --> 01:05:22.891
but having collaborated
with a lot of artists,

01:05:22.891 --> 01:05:24.410
I think that
Carnatic is probably

01:05:24.410 --> 01:05:27.030
the most complete
melodic system.

01:05:27.030 --> 01:05:29.850
So the kind of grounding
that you get melodically

01:05:29.850 --> 01:05:34.341
when you learn this
system makes you versatile

01:05:34.341 --> 01:05:36.340
enough to collaborate
with almost any other kind

01:05:36.340 --> 01:05:39.822
of culture most of the time.

01:05:39.822 --> 01:05:41.780
When I say Carnatic in
this particular context,

01:05:41.780 --> 01:05:43.920
it includes the
North Indian also.

01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:46.705
The raga system of music is
very melodically complete.

01:05:49.610 --> 01:05:51.990
But now, when we
played "Lonely Woman,"

01:05:51.990 --> 01:05:55.570
we had almost free style kind
of approach to it yesterday.

01:05:55.570 --> 01:05:59.490
So that one was more easy to do.

01:05:59.490 --> 01:06:03.060
But the other composition,
the [? domba ?] [INAUDIBLE].

01:06:03.060 --> 01:06:05.320
There, at least, there
are certain notes

01:06:05.320 --> 01:06:08.932
which is more like one
of the pentatonics.

01:06:08.932 --> 01:06:14.860
[PLAYS SCALE] Or [PLAYS SCALE]
kind of thing, so there.

01:06:14.860 --> 01:06:18.800
So it was not
difficult [INAUDIBLE].

01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:19.728
Yes.

01:06:19.728 --> 01:06:21.269
AUDIENCE: Could you
talk a little bit

01:06:21.269 --> 01:06:26.382
about the role of dance
with Carnatic music.

01:06:26.382 --> 01:06:28.340
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN:
See, I personally believe

01:06:28.340 --> 01:06:34.230
that, until almost 1700, dance
and music were pretty much

01:06:34.230 --> 01:06:37.010
close in the south of India.

01:06:37.010 --> 01:06:40.740
But then by 1700s, or
rather, the later part

01:06:40.740 --> 01:06:46.280
of 1700s, pure
music forms started

01:06:46.280 --> 01:06:48.660
getting more distinctive.

01:06:48.660 --> 01:06:50.810
And started
diverging from dance.

01:06:50.810 --> 01:06:55.470
So today the dance repertoire
and music repertoire

01:06:55.470 --> 01:07:00.240
are pretty distinctive, with a
couple of overlaps like padams

01:07:00.240 --> 01:07:03.010
or tillanas and javalis
and so forth happening.

01:07:03.010 --> 01:07:08.020
But there is very, very
much of a divergence today.

01:07:08.020 --> 01:07:10.480
That's why, if you actually
look at some composers

01:07:10.480 --> 01:07:16.220
before Tyagaraja and others
who were more in the mid-1700s,

01:07:16.220 --> 01:07:20.380
people like Oottukkadu Venkata
Kavi, a lot of his compositions

01:07:20.380 --> 01:07:26.280
would be very, very
extrapolatable to dance also,

01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:28.920
because he was much
closer to that period

01:07:28.920 --> 01:07:31.990
when dance, drama-- I
mean theater-- and music

01:07:31.990 --> 01:07:36.060
were pretty much integrated,
actually, almost.

01:07:39.505 --> 01:07:41.505
AUDIENCE: This is more a
philosophical question.

01:07:41.505 --> 01:07:42.990
When you're a
musician and you're

01:07:42.990 --> 01:07:47.210
practicing ragas and
compositions, to what degree

01:07:47.210 --> 01:07:50.800
can you, maybe over the
course of your career,

01:07:50.800 --> 01:07:54.046
over rehearse to the point
where the improvisation sounds

01:07:54.046 --> 01:07:57.970
rehearsed rather than having
that momentary brilliance

01:07:57.970 --> 01:08:00.560
that is the beauty
of Carnatic music.

01:08:00.560 --> 01:08:04.140
Do you see that as a problem
making Carnatic music?

01:08:04.140 --> 01:08:08.508
That sometimes it's
improvisational,

01:08:08.508 --> 01:08:11.895
but it's over-rehearsed
and not spur of the moment?

01:08:11.895 --> 01:08:13.270
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN:
I would say

01:08:13.270 --> 01:08:15.970
that that's not a
problem only with any one

01:08:15.970 --> 01:08:17.170
particular system of music.

01:08:17.170 --> 01:08:19.364
I think in any
system of music, you

01:08:19.364 --> 01:08:23.410
have to have a fine balance
between the necessary amount

01:08:23.410 --> 01:08:26.270
of practice for
command and control,

01:08:26.270 --> 01:08:33.250
but not to compromise
your personal enjoyment

01:08:33.250 --> 01:08:35.520
or the spontaneity
and the freshness

01:08:35.520 --> 01:08:37.689
of the thing-- for
yourself, first.

01:08:37.689 --> 01:08:39.859
So even in, say,
piano or something,

01:08:39.859 --> 01:08:43.310
if you really keep practicing
mechanically just the fingers,

01:08:43.310 --> 01:08:46.255
only develop muscle memory,
then only your muscles

01:08:46.255 --> 01:08:48.479
will be playing the
music, not your mind.

01:08:48.479 --> 01:08:52.700
So the passion has
to still be kept up.

01:08:52.700 --> 01:08:56.990
And that's a very
difficult thing.

01:08:56.990 --> 01:09:00.189
Unless you, yourself,
figure it out,

01:09:00.189 --> 01:09:02.899
it's very difficult to
have a formula for that,

01:09:02.899 --> 01:09:04.689
like a common formula.

01:09:04.689 --> 01:09:08.920
So each artist has to--
I mean, when I play,

01:09:08.920 --> 01:09:11.770
if I practice for about five,
six hours, or seven hours

01:09:11.770 --> 01:09:14.010
continuously at a
stretch, the moment

01:09:14.010 --> 01:09:17.760
I start finding things
too effortless, I stop.

01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:23.090
So there has to be just that 5%,
10% of effort still happening

01:09:23.090 --> 01:09:26.550
for you to really be in it.

01:09:26.550 --> 01:09:28.050
If it starts getting
too effortless,

01:09:28.050 --> 01:09:29.850
it's almost mechanical.

01:09:29.850 --> 01:09:31.735
Then you are not even there.

01:09:31.735 --> 01:09:33.859
There has to be a certain
amount of effortlessness,

01:09:33.859 --> 01:09:39.029
but probably about 90%
effortlessness and 10% effort

01:09:39.029 --> 01:09:39.529
balance.

01:09:43.268 --> 01:09:46.232
AUDIENCE: Going
back to the response

01:09:46.232 --> 01:09:49.340
you had about
collaboration, is it

01:09:49.340 --> 01:09:53.110
at all disorienting
that Carnatic verses you

01:09:53.110 --> 01:09:55.230
so well in melodic
structure is it

01:09:55.230 --> 01:09:58.680
disorienting when that
melodic structure is not

01:09:58.680 --> 01:10:01.620
there, not the point, and in
fact the source of structure

01:10:01.620 --> 01:10:05.474
is harmonic or something else?

01:10:05.474 --> 01:10:07.140
I'm kind of curious
about your statement

01:10:07.140 --> 01:10:08.725
that it trains you
well, because I've

01:10:08.725 --> 01:10:11.054
seen where
disorientation between--

01:10:11.054 --> 01:10:12.470
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN:
No, see, you

01:10:12.470 --> 01:10:14.740
have to really understand
two things here.

01:10:14.740 --> 01:10:18.960
The melodic approach in the
harmonic approach are distinct

01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:20.970
and they have their
own rationale.

01:10:20.970 --> 01:10:23.670
each one has its
own evolution which

01:10:23.670 --> 01:10:25.710
has been over a
period of time based

01:10:25.710 --> 01:10:28.160
on aesthetics--
general aesthetics,

01:10:28.160 --> 01:10:30.980
individual aesthetics
common aesthetics,

01:10:30.980 --> 01:10:33.890
national, regional, cultural,
all kinds of aesthetics

01:10:33.890 --> 01:10:34.530
come into play.

01:10:37.080 --> 01:10:41.130
The melodic combinations,
from my experience,

01:10:41.130 --> 01:10:47.290
I have seen that almost any
combination of notes played

01:10:47.290 --> 01:10:50.900
or heard successively
can be made to work,

01:10:50.900 --> 01:10:52.730
over a period of time.

01:10:52.730 --> 01:10:56.250
But when you start playing
simultaneous notes, which

01:10:56.250 --> 01:10:59.510
is more harmony, when
you start getting

01:10:59.510 --> 01:11:02.074
into polyphonic, vertical
arrangement of notes,

01:11:02.074 --> 01:11:03.490
there are sudden
combinations only

01:11:03.490 --> 01:11:06.240
which can work better
than other combinations.

01:11:06.240 --> 01:11:08.870
And even that is, you
know, so many experiments

01:11:08.870 --> 01:11:10.250
keep happening all the time.

01:11:10.250 --> 01:11:14.970
You will take this conventional
combinations of the three note

01:11:14.970 --> 01:11:17.720
chords and then you start doing
so many other kinds of things.

01:11:17.720 --> 01:11:21.400
But again, it takes
time for the ears

01:11:21.400 --> 01:11:22.970
to start getting
adjusted to that.

01:11:22.970 --> 01:11:25.980
Now, similarly, when you
start listening to harmony

01:11:25.980 --> 01:11:32.100
with a melodic ear, so to speak,
or melody with a harmonic ear,

01:11:32.100 --> 01:11:34.870
then you'll start finding
things which are disorienting

01:11:34.870 --> 01:11:37.340
or which are not resolved.

01:11:37.340 --> 01:11:41.140
And that's where my whole
concept of melharmony came in.

01:11:41.140 --> 01:11:43.400
That was the rationale
when I started melharmony.

01:11:43.400 --> 01:11:45.710
Actually you guys
can do a wiki search

01:11:45.710 --> 01:11:50.050
on melharmony, which is a
concept I started in 2000.

01:11:50.050 --> 01:11:51.590
My whole rationale
was that people

01:11:51.590 --> 01:11:59.400
were hearing music with their
culture and their type of ears.

01:11:59.400 --> 01:12:00.980
And then they would
actually find--

01:12:00.980 --> 01:12:02.490
so suppose somebody
from the West

01:12:02.490 --> 01:12:04.300
was hearing a melodic concept.

01:12:04.300 --> 01:12:06.525
He may find it pretty
uni-dimensional with only one

01:12:06.525 --> 01:12:08.650
or two melodies happening
at the same time with not

01:12:08.650 --> 01:12:10.620
much of a vertical dimension.

01:12:10.620 --> 01:12:13.850
And similarly, to a person
who was hearing Western music

01:12:13.850 --> 01:12:16.582
with a raga in mind,
there'll be so many notes

01:12:16.582 --> 01:12:18.540
which are going out of
that particular sequence

01:12:18.540 --> 01:12:20.630
or out of the scale.

01:12:20.630 --> 01:12:22.320
But that will
still be rationally

01:12:22.320 --> 01:12:25.010
applicable for that
particular culture.

01:12:25.010 --> 01:12:27.100
So what I started
doing is try to create

01:12:27.100 --> 01:12:30.670
this system of harmony with
an emphasis on melodic rules.

01:12:30.670 --> 01:12:32.570
That's what melharmony is.

01:12:32.570 --> 01:12:40.300
So that's where I tried to start
reconciling that difference,

01:12:40.300 --> 01:12:43.020
to create that bridge
between these two oceans.

01:12:43.020 --> 01:12:44.460
But it's a very serious concept.

01:12:44.460 --> 01:12:47.010
So melharmony has its
own separate rules

01:12:47.010 --> 01:12:53.130
for harmony itself-- very,
very rationally explainable,

01:12:53.130 --> 01:12:55.590
applicable rules.

01:12:55.590 --> 01:12:58.160
And so I've been collaborating
with different orchestras,

01:12:58.160 --> 01:13:02.590
like, say, BBC, or Sacramento
Symphony, and different kinds

01:13:02.590 --> 01:13:04.700
of orchestras, or
with jazz groups.

01:13:04.700 --> 01:13:07.309
So some of these compositions
that I play are melharmonic.

01:13:07.309 --> 01:13:09.100
So there is that element
of vertical thing,

01:13:09.100 --> 01:13:14.110
but with the emphasis
on structured rules of

01:13:14.110 --> 01:13:15.970
[INAUDIBLE].

01:13:15.970 --> 01:13:17.970
In fact, the Society for
Music Theory conference

01:13:17.970 --> 01:13:21.070
in Boston in 2005--
maybe, I don't

01:13:21.070 --> 01:13:24.700
know whether you were there in
that-- Robert Morris, the Chair

01:13:24.700 --> 01:13:26.550
of composing from
Eastman School of Music,

01:13:26.550 --> 01:13:27.883
presented a paper on melharmony.

01:13:31.960 --> 01:13:35.645
So it's a very interesting
topic and subject.

01:13:38.020 --> 01:13:39.686
PROFESSOR: I think
we'll leave it there.

01:13:39.686 --> 01:13:41.828
Let's give a big round of
applause for Ravikiran.

01:13:41.828 --> 01:13:43.804
[APPLAUSE]

01:13:43.804 --> 01:13:45.780
And for Phil Scarff.

01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:50.720
Thank you all very much.

01:13:50.720 --> 01:13:52.270
CHITRAVINA RAVIKIRAN: Pleasure.