WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.976 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.976 --> 00:00:02.928 align:middle line:90% [SQUEAKING] 00:00:02.928 --> 00:00:04.392 align:middle line:90% [RUSTLING] 00:00:04.392 --> 00:00:05.856 align:middle line:90% [CLICKING] 00:00:05.856 --> 00:00:19.060 align:middle line:90% 00:00:19.060 --> 00:00:23.350 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: We're so glad that we can welcome Jean 00:00:23.350 --> 00:00:26.500 align:middle line:90% Casimir, Professor--Pwòf! 00:00:26.500 --> 00:00:27.558 align:middle line:90% Ti Jan Bosal. 00:00:27.558 --> 00:00:28.600 align:middle line:90% So his name is actually-- 00:00:28.600 --> 00:00:29.590 align:middle line:90% I love the name-- 00:00:29.590 --> 00:00:31.048 align:middle line:90% Ti Jan Bosal. 00:00:31.048 --> 00:00:33.340 align:middle line:84% And I think you will get to hear more, perhaps, about-- 00:00:33.340 --> 00:00:35.280 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: The only one who called me like that. 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:37.363 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Well, that's your name on Twitter. 00:00:37.363 --> 00:00:40.840 align:middle line:84% That's his handle on Twitter, is @TiJanBosal, which has-- 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:42.790 align:middle line:84% which is quite loaded in symbolism. 00:00:42.790 --> 00:00:43.640 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Yes. 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:46.460 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: And that's why I love it. 00:00:46.460 --> 00:00:49.360 align:middle line:84% So I can say that the entire semester, 00:00:49.360 --> 00:00:52.480 align:middle line:84% all of our discussions have prepared us for his visit 00:00:52.480 --> 00:00:56.087 align:middle line:84% in many ways because the topic of this class, Jean, 00:00:56.087 --> 00:01:02.020 align:middle line:84% Ti Jan Bosal, it's really about the use or the misuse 00:01:02.020 --> 00:01:07.330 align:middle line:84% of language in the way we create our identity or the way we 00:01:07.330 --> 00:01:10.720 align:middle line:84% misidentify ourselves, vis-à-vis our compatriots, 00:01:10.720 --> 00:01:11.860 align:middle line:90% vis-à-vis the world. 00:01:11.860 --> 00:01:13.900 align:middle line:84% And as we saw, actually, through each of them 00:01:13.900 --> 00:01:16.690 align:middle line:84% you get to hear how, growing up, we 00:01:16.690 --> 00:01:18.700 align:middle line:84% are socialized into certain beliefs 00:01:18.700 --> 00:01:22.120 align:middle line:84% about language that can either give us power 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:24.808 align:middle line:90% or can remove power from us. 00:01:24.808 --> 00:01:26.350 align:middle line:84% And then we've discussed various ways 00:01:26.350 --> 00:01:27.767 align:middle line:84% in which we can regain that power, 00:01:27.767 --> 00:01:29.170 align:middle line:90% or we can keep that power alive. 00:01:29.170 --> 00:01:32.260 align:middle line:84% And that's what your work is all about in the particular case 00:01:32.260 --> 00:01:33.370 align:middle line:90% of Haiti. 00:01:33.370 --> 00:01:38.890 align:middle line:84% So we've read parts of your book and through chapter 8 00:01:38.890 --> 00:01:42.550 align:middle line:84% on the beauty and the power of the sovereign people of Haiti, 00:01:42.550 --> 00:01:46.000 align:middle line:84% where you show so clearly the key importance of language. 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:48.640 align:middle line:84% As you call it, it's a living archive. 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:50.248 align:middle line:84% Because when you write about people 00:01:50.248 --> 00:01:52.540 align:middle line:84% who have been oppressed, people who have been excluded, 00:01:52.540 --> 00:01:53.890 align:middle line:90% where do you get your archives? 00:01:53.890 --> 00:01:55.510 align:middle line:84% Because they didn't write the history. 00:01:55.510 --> 00:01:58.090 align:middle line:84% History is written by the Europeans, by the winners. 00:01:58.090 --> 00:02:00.970 align:middle line:84% And one way to recover that history is through language, 00:02:00.970 --> 00:02:04.090 align:middle line:84% and in the case of Haiti, through Kreyòl, right? 00:02:04.090 --> 00:02:07.450 align:middle line:84% And that's one of the main aspects of Jean's work 00:02:07.450 --> 00:02:10.960 align:middle line:84% that I feel is extremely important for me. 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:15.010 align:middle line:84% And for me personally, why Jean is so important, 00:02:15.010 --> 00:02:17.057 align:middle line:84% in terms of my own liberation, it's 00:02:17.057 --> 00:02:18.610 align:middle line:84% because this is what I grew up with. 00:02:18.610 --> 00:02:22.160 align:middle line:90% So I grew up with this textbook. 00:02:22.160 --> 00:02:23.470 align:middle line:90% So this is my history textbook. 00:02:23.470 --> 00:02:28.250 align:middle line:84% This is where I learned the history of my country. 00:02:28.250 --> 00:02:31.712 align:middle line:84% And it's actually-- it's quite amazing to think of it. 00:02:31.712 --> 00:02:33.920 align:middle line:84% I think of the concept that you brought up yesterday, 00:02:33.920 --> 00:02:38.060 align:middle line:84% on Monday, of "deformation," the point that colonized 00:02:38.060 --> 00:02:40.850 align:middle line:84% people, either in the Caribbean, or Palestine, 00:02:40.850 --> 00:02:44.390 align:middle line:84% are deformed through historical factors-- 00:02:44.390 --> 00:02:46.970 align:middle line:84% yet Haiti is a proud, independent country. 00:02:46.970 --> 00:02:48.995 align:middle line:84% In the Caribbean, people know about Haiti. 00:02:48.995 --> 00:02:50.870 align:middle line:84% In fact, there are songs written about Haiti, 00:02:50.870 --> 00:02:52.790 align:middle line:84% about Haiti's struggles for independence. 00:02:52.790 --> 00:02:56.510 align:middle line:84% Yet Haitians like myself, we learn history 00:02:56.510 --> 00:03:02.000 align:middle line:84% from a book that received the imprimatur, 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:03.365 align:middle line:90% the approval of what? 00:03:03.365 --> 00:03:05.660 align:middle line:84% If you read here, this is the imprimatur 00:03:05.660 --> 00:03:07.250 align:middle line:90% of the Catholic Church. 00:03:07.250 --> 00:03:09.740 align:middle line:84% So the Catholic Church is the institution 00:03:09.740 --> 00:03:13.370 align:middle line:84% that approves the version of history 00:03:13.370 --> 00:03:17.420 align:middle line:84% that teachers teach us about our own history. 00:03:17.420 --> 00:03:20.000 align:middle line:84% And then the part that's very striking 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:24.140 align:middle line:84% is the preface, which I put here because it's so striking. 00:03:24.140 --> 00:03:28.820 align:middle line:84% And I'm just going to read the bottom part of it. 00:03:28.820 --> 00:03:33.590 align:middle line:84% So here it says: "The mean people will teach you 00:03:33.590 --> 00:03:40.520 align:middle line:84% how to detest evil and the good people 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:43.310 align:middle line:90% will teach you to honor virtue. 00:03:43.310 --> 00:03:48.710 align:middle line:84% And then our heroes will teach you patriotic pride 00:03:48.710 --> 00:03:51.350 align:middle line:90% and the price of liberty." 00:03:51.350 --> 00:03:56.840 align:middle line:84% And we have to admire the efforts of Las Casas, Boutin, 00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:04.620 align:middle line:84% Alexis-Jean-Marie Guilloux, the value of souls for eternity. 00:04:04.620 --> 00:04:07.680 align:middle line:84% Now does anyone know about Las Casas? 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:10.140 align:middle line:84% So tell me, Merelin, what do you know about Las Casas? 00:04:10.140 --> 00:04:11.610 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I know he mostly resided 00:04:11.610 --> 00:04:13.590 align:middle line:84% in the Dominican side of the island. 00:04:13.590 --> 00:04:15.840 align:middle line:84% He was basically a priest, kind of, 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:18.839 align:middle line:84% but he was also a history person, a historian. 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:19.560 align:middle line:90% He was an author. 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:21.600 align:middle line:84% He kept track of every single thing. 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:23.550 align:middle line:90% He was very much pro-Indigenous. 00:04:23.550 --> 00:04:26.790 align:middle line:84% And he tried to defend them, but just basically recording 00:04:26.790 --> 00:04:27.300 align:middle line:90% history. 00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:28.720 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yes, actually that's a good point. 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.780 align:middle line:84% So Las Casas, he was very much pro-Indigenous. 00:04:30.780 --> 00:04:32.695 align:middle line:84% And he was so pro-Indigenous that what 00:04:32.695 --> 00:04:35.070 align:middle line:84% he did when he knew that the Indigenous people were dying 00:04:35.070 --> 00:04:39.870 align:middle line:84% off, they were dying of yellow fever, of various abuses, 00:04:39.870 --> 00:04:41.260 align:middle line:90% of genocide. 00:04:41.260 --> 00:04:45.510 align:middle line:84% He thought that the best way to save the so-called Indians is 00:04:45.510 --> 00:04:49.950 align:middle line:84% to bring in the Africans, because he had this theory that 00:04:49.950 --> 00:04:51.911 align:middle line:90% Black people are-- 00:04:51.911 --> 00:04:53.536 align:middle line:84% in fact, he invented the notion-- well, 00:04:53.536 --> 00:04:55.230 align:middle line:84% they invented the notion of Blackness, 00:04:55.230 --> 00:04:58.530 align:middle line:84% that Blacks are destined for slavery. 00:04:58.530 --> 00:05:01.560 align:middle line:84% Therefore let's bring the Africans in 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.440 align:middle line:90% to save the Indigenous people. 00:05:04.440 --> 00:05:07.800 align:middle line:84% He said that was the deal he made with the powers of Europe. 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:11.050 align:middle line:84% So he was a major promoter of the slave trade. 00:05:11.050 --> 00:05:13.260 align:middle line:84% And this is who, we're being asked, 00:05:13.260 --> 00:05:17.850 align:middle line:84% in the name of virtue to honor and to adore Las Casas. 00:05:17.850 --> 00:05:20.280 align:middle line:84% And the others, Boutin, Guilloux, they 00:05:20.280 --> 00:05:21.600 align:middle line:90% are missionaries, basically. 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:22.320 align:middle line:90% You see? 00:05:22.320 --> 00:05:25.770 align:middle line:84% Do you see any name of a Haitian freedom fighter? 00:05:25.770 --> 00:05:27.240 align:middle line:90% There is no Dessalines here. 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:28.650 align:middle line:90% There is no Toussaint here. 00:05:28.650 --> 00:05:30.490 align:middle line:90% There is no Boukman here. 00:05:30.490 --> 00:05:30.990 align:middle line:90% You see? 00:05:30.990 --> 00:05:32.407 align:middle line:84% And this is what we have to adore. 00:05:32.407 --> 00:05:35.640 align:middle line:84% And then it says at the end, "Love this little book 00:05:35.640 --> 00:05:38.355 align:middle line:90% and be docile to its lessons." 00:05:38.355 --> 00:05:39.450 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHING] 00:05:39.450 --> 00:05:42.180 align:middle line:84% Yeah, be docile to the lessons of the book. 00:05:42.180 --> 00:05:43.680 align:middle line:84% You see, so that's our history book. 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.650 align:middle line:84% Now this is a literature book, a literature book 00:05:46.650 --> 00:05:51.150 align:middle line:84% written by a French brother called-- 00:05:51.150 --> 00:05:53.460 align:middle line:84% Catholic brother called Raphaël Berrou, 00:05:53.460 --> 00:05:58.410 align:middle line:84% and a Haitian linguist called Pradel Pompilus, 00:05:58.410 --> 00:06:00.660 align:middle line:90% a well-known Haitian linguist. 00:06:00.660 --> 00:06:06.360 align:middle line:84% And one of the favorite authors in this book 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:09.780 align:middle line:90% is Carl Brouard, who wrote-- 00:06:09.780 --> 00:06:11.460 align:middle line:84% this is something that the priest 00:06:11.460 --> 00:06:13.470 align:middle line:90% would have us recite by heart-- 00:06:13.470 --> 00:06:17.550 align:middle line:84% that the question of Kreyòl is ridiculous. 00:06:17.550 --> 00:06:21.840 align:middle line:84% What development can Haiti expect from its Kreyòl? 00:06:21.840 --> 00:06:25.560 align:middle line:84% Kreyòl will be nothing but a patois. 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:27.060 align:middle line:84% There is nothing to do about this. 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:29.460 align:middle line:84% And then it goes on to say, parents, 00:06:29.460 --> 00:06:31.260 align:middle line:84% never speak Kreyòl to your children. 00:06:31.260 --> 00:06:33.870 align:middle line:84% French is a habit that you are to develop. 00:06:33.870 --> 00:06:38.700 align:middle line:84% Therefore, be pitiless in correcting your children 00:06:38.700 --> 00:06:42.060 align:middle line:90% when they use Creolisms. 00:06:42.060 --> 00:06:43.140 align:middle line:90% You see? 00:06:43.140 --> 00:06:47.910 align:middle line:84% So do you imagine a country where most parents speak only 00:06:47.910 --> 00:06:48.570 align:middle line:90% Kreyòl? 00:06:48.570 --> 00:06:51.600 align:middle line:84% That book asks that parents never speak Kreyòl 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:52.535 align:middle line:90% to your children. 00:06:52.535 --> 00:06:53.160 align:middle line:90% Do you imagine? 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:55.020 align:middle line:84% So it means really that if they were to follow this, 00:06:55.020 --> 00:06:55.950 align:middle line:90% they would just-- 00:06:55.950 --> 00:06:57.575 align:middle line:84% they would never speak to the children. 00:06:57.575 --> 00:06:59.130 align:middle line:90% They have to-- this is-- 00:06:59.130 --> 00:07:02.697 align:middle line:84% So this is just as background to tell you why. 00:07:02.697 --> 00:07:04.780 align:middle line:84% And actually, this is more, actually, of the same. 00:07:04.780 --> 00:07:07.587 align:middle line:84% So this is my report card from Saint Louis de Gonzague. 00:07:07.587 --> 00:07:09.920 align:middle line:84% Actually you went-- were you at Saint Louis de Gonzague? 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:10.830 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: I studied at Saint Louis de Gonzague. 00:07:10.830 --> 00:07:13.020 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So we share that same school. 00:07:13.020 --> 00:07:16.680 align:middle line:84% So Jean Casimir went to Saint Louis de Gonzague. 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:18.240 align:middle line:90% Maybe 50 years apart? 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:19.260 align:middle line:90% Maybe, I don't-- 00:07:19.260 --> 00:07:21.780 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: No, no, yes, but I spent three years 00:07:21.780 --> 00:07:22.440 align:middle line:90% in Saint Louis de Gonzague. 00:07:22.440 --> 00:07:23.280 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK, OK. 00:07:23.280 --> 00:07:24.970 align:middle line:84% So do you remember these report cards? 00:07:24.970 --> 00:07:26.260 align:middle line:90% They had colors. 00:07:26.260 --> 00:07:27.510 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Oh, yeah, yeah-- 00:07:27.510 --> 00:07:28.410 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: They were color coded. 00:07:28.410 --> 00:07:30.360 align:middle line:84% They were-- let me try to remember. 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:31.990 align:middle line:90% Pink for very well-- 00:07:31.990 --> 00:07:32.490 align:middle line:90% Oh, green? 00:07:32.490 --> 00:07:33.270 align:middle line:90% I don't remember the color. 00:07:33.270 --> 00:07:34.228 align:middle line:90% But it was color coded. 00:07:34.228 --> 00:07:34.830 align:middle line:90% So this was-- 00:07:34.830 --> 00:07:36.730 align:middle line:90% I was a good student, right? 00:07:36.730 --> 00:07:38.250 align:middle line:90% "Très bien," very well. 00:07:38.250 --> 00:07:40.950 align:middle line:84% But this is the cost of this "très bien." 00:07:40.950 --> 00:07:44.280 align:middle line:84% You have to adhere to these directives. 00:07:44.280 --> 00:07:48.180 align:middle line:84% So basically, students have to be present. 00:07:48.180 --> 00:07:50.790 align:middle line:84% You cannot bring weapons to class. 00:07:50.790 --> 00:07:53.040 align:middle line:90% Knives are forbidden. 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:54.630 align:middle line:90% You cannot loiter. 00:07:54.630 --> 00:07:59.538 align:middle line:84% And then rule number four, the use of Kreyòl is prohibited. 00:07:59.538 --> 00:08:00.080 align:middle line:90% You see that? 00:08:00.080 --> 00:08:03.050 align:middle line:84% So to be "tres bien," you better not speak Kreyòl. 00:08:03.050 --> 00:08:07.550 align:middle line:90% So now to move on to today-- 00:08:07.550 --> 00:08:11.450 align:middle line:84% so that's why I've been so, so happy to bring in Casimir-- 00:08:11.450 --> 00:08:15.920 align:middle line:84% and here, I want to give thanks to the history unit at MIT. 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.500 align:middle line:84% I want to give thanks to MIT Global Languages. 00:08:18.500 --> 00:08:23.150 align:middle line:84% And also Global France is also sponsoring Jean's visit, 00:08:23.150 --> 00:08:26.630 align:middle line:84% and MIT Haiti also is sponsoring Jean's visit. 00:08:26.630 --> 00:08:29.257 align:middle line:84% And so Jean gave this talk on Monday [5/2/22]. 00:08:29.257 --> 00:08:31.340 align:middle line:84% Vivian [Sansour] was there and it was an amazing-- 00:08:31.340 --> 00:08:32.870 align:middle line:84% really an amazing talk, which you 00:08:32.870 --> 00:08:34.880 align:middle line:84% might get to hear more about today [5/4/22]. 00:08:34.880 --> 00:08:37.190 align:middle line:84% But really what Jean is teaching us to do 00:08:37.190 --> 00:08:40.370 align:middle line:84% is how to reread Haitian history, not 00:08:40.370 --> 00:08:43.370 align:middle line:84% from the perspective of the Las Casas, the Boutin, 00:08:43.370 --> 00:08:46.700 align:middle line:84% the Guilloux, the brothers of the colonial instruction. 00:08:46.700 --> 00:08:49.220 align:middle line:84% He's asking us to reread Haitian history 00:08:49.220 --> 00:08:51.860 align:middle line:84% from the perspective of the formerly colonized, 00:08:51.860 --> 00:08:53.810 align:middle line:90% from that of the captives. 00:08:53.810 --> 00:08:56.450 align:middle line:90% And he's doing-- and Jean is-- 00:08:56.450 --> 00:08:59.000 align:middle line:84% I like to say that Jean is one of the rare, 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:02.600 align:middle line:84% very rare Haitian intellectuals who've been producing texts 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:04.220 align:middle line:90% in Kreyòl for-- 00:09:04.220 --> 00:09:07.250 align:middle line:84% Jean, actually when was the first text you produced 00:09:07.250 --> 00:09:09.560 align:middle line:84% in Kreyòl on history and sociology? 00:09:09.560 --> 00:09:10.250 align:middle line:90% When was that? 00:09:10.250 --> 00:09:11.750 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: I'm going to tell you, 00:09:11.750 --> 00:09:19.750 align:middle line:84% in the '70s, in the journal "Sèl with the fathers and the-- 00:09:19.750 --> 00:09:20.860 align:middle line:90% I don't remember the-- 00:09:20.860 --> 00:09:22.120 align:middle line:90% I have it at home, actually. 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:22.870 align:middle line:90% I found it now. 00:09:22.870 --> 00:09:24.790 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yeah, that's avant garde. 00:09:24.790 --> 00:09:26.248 align:middle line:84% That's really forward thinking that 00:09:26.248 --> 00:09:28.720 align:middle line:84% in the '70s, that was before the famous Reform Bernard. 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:29.500 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Oh, yes indeed. 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:31.042 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: That was before that. 00:09:31.042 --> 00:09:33.370 align:middle line:84% We had this reform in '82 that basically said, look, 00:09:33.370 --> 00:09:35.380 align:middle line:84% the schools are failing Haitian children. 00:09:35.380 --> 00:09:38.020 align:middle line:84% We have to use Kreyòl as a tool of instruction. 00:09:38.020 --> 00:09:41.170 align:middle line:84% And before that, Jean was producing text in Kreyòl 00:09:41.170 --> 00:09:41.800 align:middle line:90% on history. 00:09:41.800 --> 00:09:45.370 align:middle line:84% And we're very pleased that Jean has so happily agreed 00:09:45.370 --> 00:09:48.730 align:middle line:84% to translate some of his work in Kreyòl that we're putting 00:09:48.730 --> 00:09:50.390 align:middle line:90% on Platform MIT Haiti. 00:09:50.390 --> 00:09:53.170 align:middle line:84% And so actually we spent time today 00:09:53.170 --> 00:09:55.090 align:middle line:84% discussing the next article that will 00:09:55.090 --> 00:09:58.900 align:middle line:84% go with that very topic, "decolonial versus colonial." 00:09:58.900 --> 00:10:01.420 align:middle line:84% So that's why I feel really honored. 00:10:01.420 --> 00:10:04.190 align:middle line:84% And we should all be pleased to have Jean with us today. 00:10:04.190 --> 00:10:05.380 align:middle line:90% So this is actually-- 00:10:05.380 --> 00:10:12.110 align:middle line:84% And I love this, it says technology in the lakou-- 00:10:12.110 --> 00:10:14.920 align:middle line:84% the lakou is this communal unit where we Haitians live. 00:10:14.920 --> 00:10:18.070 align:middle line:84% That's where we get our sovereignty-- 00:10:18.070 --> 00:10:20.980 align:middle line:84% where we trigger protest, the kind of protest 00:10:20.980 --> 00:10:22.780 align:middle line:84% that can actually lock down a country. 00:10:22.780 --> 00:10:25.150 align:middle line:84% "Peyi lok" is the term that's used in Haiti when there's 00:10:25.150 --> 00:10:27.625 align:middle line:84% a protest, you basically shut down 00:10:27.625 --> 00:10:28.750 align:middle line:90% the country out of protest. 00:10:28.750 --> 00:10:31.870 align:middle line:84% And that twokèt, what Jean does, which is actually very relevant 00:10:31.870 --> 00:10:35.500 align:middle line:84% to our work here-- and I can think of what Gabby is doing 00:10:35.500 --> 00:10:36.760 align:middle line:90% for her project-- 00:10:36.760 --> 00:10:40.870 align:middle line:84% is how to use technology to be able to move 00:10:40.870 --> 00:10:42.170 align:middle line:90% social change forward. 00:10:42.170 --> 00:10:44.500 align:middle line:84% And in this twokèt, he talks about how Haitians, 00:10:44.500 --> 00:10:47.320 align:middle line:84% even very poor Haitians-- or very impoverished Haitians, 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:48.490 align:middle line:90% I should say-- 00:10:48.490 --> 00:10:50.740 align:middle line:84% managed to use the phones, WhatsApp, 00:10:50.740 --> 00:10:52.458 align:middle line:90% to be able to create protest. 00:10:52.458 --> 00:10:54.250 align:middle line:84% So in a way, that's a bit what we're doing: 00:10:54.250 --> 00:10:58.120 align:middle line:84% using technology like in the platform to push forward 00:10:58.120 --> 00:10:59.770 align:middle line:90% the Kreyòl movement. 00:10:59.770 --> 00:11:03.910 align:middle line:84% And I wanted to-- because Jean used to work for United 00:11:03.910 --> 00:11:04.588 align:middle line:90% Nations-- 00:11:04.588 --> 00:11:06.880 align:middle line:84% how many years did you spend, Jean, working for the UN? 00:11:06.880 --> 00:11:09.070 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: I spent 15 years working there. 00:11:09.070 --> 00:11:11.508 align:middle line:84% But I was the representative of Haiti at UNESCO. 00:11:11.508 --> 00:11:12.550 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: You were? 00:11:12.550 --> 00:11:14.050 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Yes, but I never went. 00:11:14.050 --> 00:11:16.900 align:middle line:90% I resigned before going. 00:11:16.900 --> 00:11:18.310 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK, OK. 00:11:18.310 --> 00:11:19.310 align:middle line:90% This is great. 00:11:19.310 --> 00:11:21.880 align:middle line:84% This is great, Jean, because I'm going to show you what 00:11:21.880 --> 00:11:23.590 align:middle line:90% your successor is doing now. 00:11:23.590 --> 00:11:24.340 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Yes. 00:11:24.340 --> 00:11:25.720 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Dominique Dupuy. 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:27.304 align:middle line:84% I call her "Anbasadèz pa m" [i.e., 00:11:27.304 --> 00:11:27.880 align:middle line:84% "my favorite ambassador"], you know, 00:11:27.880 --> 00:11:29.255 align:middle line:84% because she's doing amazing work. 00:11:29.255 --> 00:11:31.150 align:middle line:84% But UNESCO, what I want to show you 00:11:31.150 --> 00:11:34.240 align:middle line:84% is to show you the power of hegemony, 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:36.860 align:middle line:84% and how hegemony even affects science, 00:11:36.860 --> 00:11:41.500 align:middle line:84% because UNESCO is the unit for education, science, 00:11:41.500 --> 00:11:43.360 align:middle line:90% and culture at the UN. 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:47.830 align:middle line:84% And UNESCO's basic mission is to promote linguistic diversity 00:11:47.830 --> 00:11:49.990 align:middle line:90% and equity and human rights. 00:11:49.990 --> 00:11:54.940 align:middle line:84% Yet in UNESCO's recent survey for the Atlas 00:11:54.940 --> 00:11:57.400 align:middle line:84% of World Languages, look at this table here. 00:11:57.400 --> 00:12:03.490 align:middle line:84% They ask each country to check the box here 00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:04.660 align:middle line:90% based on their language. 00:12:04.660 --> 00:12:07.840 align:middle line:84% And so here are the choices: Either you 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:11.770 align:middle line:84% speak a linguistic isolate, or you speak a language, "langue," 00:12:11.770 --> 00:12:14.568 align:middle line:84% or you speak a mixed language, or you speak a Creole language, 00:12:14.568 --> 00:12:15.860 align:middle line:90% or you speak a Pidgin language. 00:12:15.860 --> 00:12:17.830 align:middle line:84% So there is a concept of language 00:12:17.830 --> 00:12:21.520 align:middle line:84% without any adjective, that's the unmarked category. 00:12:21.520 --> 00:12:24.220 align:middle line:84% And then if you speak Creole, then you're 00:12:24.220 --> 00:12:25.810 align:middle line:84% basically in a separate category. 00:12:25.810 --> 00:12:28.690 align:middle line:84% And when you look at the guide for the atlas, 00:12:28.690 --> 00:12:31.990 align:middle line:84% it tells you that a Creole language is not 00:12:31.990 --> 00:12:33.640 align:middle line:90% on par with a language. 00:12:33.640 --> 00:12:34.180 align:middle line:90% Why? 00:12:34.180 --> 00:12:35.800 align:middle line:90% Because it comes from a Pidgin. 00:12:35.800 --> 00:12:39.010 align:middle line:84% That's the argument, that because Creoles 00:12:39.010 --> 00:12:40.930 align:middle line:84% come from Pidgins, therefore they 00:12:40.930 --> 00:12:42.760 align:middle line:90% don't belong to that category. 00:12:42.760 --> 00:12:44.710 align:middle line:84% You see and something which I see there's 00:12:44.710 --> 00:12:48.580 align:middle line:84% loads of evidence, data analysis, against that. 00:12:48.580 --> 00:12:53.320 align:middle line:84% So I want to close by showing Jean's successor, 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:55.450 align:middle line:90% many years after Jean-- 00:12:55.450 --> 00:12:57.650 align:middle line:90% This happened in early April. 00:12:57.650 --> 00:13:00.260 align:middle line:84% So basically what she did was amazing. 00:13:00.260 --> 00:13:02.980 align:middle line:84% She challenged UNESCO's categorization 00:13:02.980 --> 00:13:04.030 align:middle line:90% of Creole languages. 00:13:04.030 --> 00:13:05.650 align:middle line:90% And let's just listen to this. 00:13:05.650 --> 00:13:07.570 align:middle line:84% And then it's going to be your turn 00:13:07.570 --> 00:13:13.650 align:middle line:84% to tell us more about your work in this class. 00:13:13.650 --> 00:13:14.583 align:middle line:90% Let's play this. 00:13:14.583 --> 00:13:15.250 align:middle line:90% [VIDEO PLAYBACK] 00:13:15.250 --> 00:13:17.530 align:middle line:90% - [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] 00:13:17.530 --> 00:14:14.770 align:middle line:90% 00:14:14.770 --> 00:14:15.580 align:middle line:90% [END PLAYBACK] 00:14:15.580 --> 00:14:19.090 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So as we speak, as we speak, 00:14:19.090 --> 00:14:24.490 align:middle line:84% I'm looking forward to hearing from Ambassador Dupuy about how 00:14:24.490 --> 00:14:26.620 align:middle line:90% UNESCO at last is responding. 00:14:26.620 --> 00:14:28.040 align:middle line:84% Because at first they said, "Well, 00:14:28.040 --> 00:14:30.130 align:middle line:84% our experts tell us this is what Creoles are. 00:14:30.130 --> 00:14:31.700 align:middle line:90% We have to trust our experts." 00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:32.950 align:middle line:90% But she's been pushing back. 00:14:32.950 --> 00:14:34.117 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Which experts? 00:14:34.117 --> 00:14:35.000 align:middle line:90% Which experts? 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:36.500 align:middle line:90% Tell us which experts? 00:14:36.500 --> 00:14:37.720 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Exactly. 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:40.640 align:middle line:84% So but now actually, in the past couple of days, 00:14:40.640 --> 00:14:42.220 align:middle line:84% there's been some back and forth. 00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:45.070 align:middle line:84% And I'm hoping maybe before the meeting ends-- 00:14:45.070 --> 00:14:47.620 align:middle line:84% in fact, I just sent her a picture of this now-- 00:14:47.620 --> 00:14:52.150 align:middle line:84% to remind her that we are here waiting for some result of what 00:14:52.150 --> 00:14:54.640 align:middle line:90% she's doing. 00:14:54.640 --> 00:14:56.500 align:middle line:84% So I think that should give enough context 00:14:56.500 --> 00:15:01.580 align:middle line:84% as to why this person that we have here is so, so important, 00:15:01.580 --> 00:15:05.350 align:middle line:84% both for me personally, but also for us, fighting 00:15:05.350 --> 00:15:09.190 align:middle line:90% for emancipation really. 00:15:09.190 --> 00:15:14.230 align:middle line:84% So let's go around the room and introduce ourselves 00:15:14.230 --> 00:15:15.970 align:middle line:90% to Professor Jean Casimir. 00:15:15.970 --> 00:15:21.680 align:middle line:90% 00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:23.880 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Hi, I'm Jazhara-- 00:15:23.880 --> 00:15:25.530 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Actually, I think 00:15:25.530 --> 00:15:26.850 align:middle line:90% we're told that with the-- 00:15:26.850 --> 00:15:29.880 align:middle line:84% with the mask, it might be a bit-- so as you speak, 00:15:29.880 --> 00:15:32.390 align:middle line:84% if you could just remove it, and put it back, 00:15:32.390 --> 00:15:33.390 align:middle line:90% but just when you speak. 00:15:33.390 --> 00:15:34.470 align:middle line:84% And you can put it back afterwards. 00:15:34.470 --> 00:15:34.970 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:15:34.970 --> 00:15:37.230 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Hi, I'm Jazhara Solan. 00:15:37.230 --> 00:15:39.420 align:middle line:84% I'm from Jamaica, and that's the reason 00:15:39.420 --> 00:15:41.715 align:middle line:84% why I was so interested in taking this class. 00:15:41.715 --> 00:15:45.570 align:middle line:90% 00:15:45.570 --> 00:15:49.500 align:middle line:84% My project is on the role economics 00:15:49.500 --> 00:15:56.170 align:middle line:84% can play in forming the opinions on different languages. 00:15:56.170 --> 00:15:58.560 align:middle line:84% So it usually tends to be-- the rich 00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:03.010 align:middle line:84% tend to determine what language is acceptable in society. 00:16:03.010 --> 00:16:04.320 align:middle line:90% And so I'm researching that. 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:06.787 align:middle line:90% 00:16:06.787 --> 00:16:07.870 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: All right. 00:16:07.870 --> 00:16:10.960 align:middle line:90% Any questions for Jazhara? 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:13.750 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: No, I mean the only question I can see 00:16:13.750 --> 00:16:16.105 align:middle line:90% is that-- 00:16:16.105 --> 00:16:18.230 align:middle line:84% well, I don't know if this is a compliment for you. 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:21.190 align:middle line:84% But as far as I'm concerned, Jamaica and Haiti 00:16:21.190 --> 00:16:25.720 align:middle line:84% are so similar, they look like twins, you know? 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:28.210 align:middle line:84% And I say the only difference is that Jamaica 00:16:28.210 --> 00:16:32.830 align:middle line:84% was under the British, who were coming up with their empire. 00:16:32.830 --> 00:16:34.690 align:middle line:84% And we were with the French going down, 00:16:34.690 --> 00:16:37.780 align:middle line:90% so we've got independence. 00:16:37.780 --> 00:16:40.960 align:middle line:84% The only difference is they, not us, no? 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:43.210 align:middle line:84% And what is important for Jamaica 00:16:43.210 --> 00:16:47.410 align:middle line:84% and for myself also is that we have a language. 00:16:47.410 --> 00:16:50.110 align:middle line:84% Now I had a Jamaican professor, friend of mine, 00:16:50.110 --> 00:16:51.880 align:middle line:90% good friend of mine, historian. 00:16:51.880 --> 00:16:54.340 align:middle line:84% He said Jean, when I am in Jamaica, 00:16:54.340 --> 00:16:57.880 align:middle line:84% people speaking Jamaican, I don't understand them. 00:16:57.880 --> 00:17:02.410 align:middle line:90% He was genuinely Anglophone. 00:17:02.410 --> 00:17:05.050 align:middle line:90% He can't speak Jamaican Creole. 00:17:05.050 --> 00:17:06.250 align:middle line:90% And I will give-- 00:17:06.250 --> 00:17:09.099 align:middle line:84% I could give you endless example now 00:17:09.099 --> 00:17:16.359 align:middle line:84% of this Creole giving the note of a different country. 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:18.190 align:middle line:84% And Jamaica is certainly the country 00:17:18.190 --> 00:17:21.430 align:middle line:84% where you have the free village system established 00:17:21.430 --> 00:17:24.520 align:middle line:90% and acknowledged by the empire. 00:17:24.520 --> 00:17:26.344 align:middle line:84% That's quite important, that's what I call 00:17:26.344 --> 00:17:27.594 align:middle line:90% the counter plantation system. 00:17:27.594 --> 00:17:30.410 align:middle line:90% 00:17:30.410 --> 00:17:32.170 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So my name is Rachel Robinson. 00:17:32.170 --> 00:17:33.760 align:middle line:90% I'm also Jamaican. 00:17:33.760 --> 00:17:36.520 align:middle line:90% Oh, the mask-- 00:17:36.520 --> 00:17:39.310 align:middle line:84% And so I was interested in taking this class 00:17:39.310 --> 00:17:41.380 align:middle line:84% because I've never really had the opportunity 00:17:41.380 --> 00:17:45.550 align:middle line:84% to take a class like this about Caribbean identities and Creole 00:17:45.550 --> 00:17:46.120 align:middle line:90% languages. 00:17:46.120 --> 00:17:48.493 align:middle line:84% And I didn't really know too much about it. 00:17:48.493 --> 00:17:50.410 align:middle line:84% And I thought this would be such a great space 00:17:50.410 --> 00:17:52.720 align:middle line:90% to learn more about it. 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:54.670 align:middle line:84% Throughout like my life I guess I 00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:56.710 align:middle line:84% would say I've had some struggles 00:17:56.710 --> 00:18:00.460 align:middle line:84% with my Jamaican identity, and knowing my history, my culture, 00:18:00.460 --> 00:18:02.770 align:middle line:84% and like really claiming it as my own, 00:18:02.770 --> 00:18:05.110 align:middle line:90% given that I wasn't born there. 00:18:05.110 --> 00:18:08.358 align:middle line:84% And I just-- I just don't know as much. 00:18:08.358 --> 00:18:10.150 align:middle line:84% So this class has helped me a lot in growth 00:18:10.150 --> 00:18:13.540 align:middle line:84% in really claiming it, and getting 00:18:13.540 --> 00:18:15.370 align:middle line:84% more excited to learn more, to reach out 00:18:15.370 --> 00:18:18.460 align:middle line:84% to my parents, my grandparents, my family members, and things 00:18:18.460 --> 00:18:19.340 align:middle line:90% like that. 00:18:19.340 --> 00:18:21.910 align:middle line:84% So one of the projects I did in this class 00:18:21.910 --> 00:18:24.280 align:middle line:90% was about our identities. 00:18:24.280 --> 00:18:29.230 align:middle line:84% And I kind of talked about my struggle. 00:18:29.230 --> 00:18:32.800 align:middle line:84% And this was earlier on, so I hadn't 00:18:32.800 --> 00:18:36.100 align:middle line:84% made as much growth I think as I have now. 00:18:36.100 --> 00:18:38.440 align:middle line:84% But I just talked about different things 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:40.480 align:middle line:84% that I struggled with, and ways that I want 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:44.020 align:middle line:90% to try to fix that and grow. 00:18:44.020 --> 00:18:47.770 align:middle line:84% And yeah, that was probably like my favorite thing 00:18:47.770 --> 00:18:51.160 align:middle line:84% that I've done, because it just was so almost healing 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:53.320 align:middle line:90% to talk about myself. 00:18:53.320 --> 00:18:55.570 align:middle line:84% And I put a lot of pictures of my family. 00:18:55.570 --> 00:18:58.320 align:middle line:84% And that was just really nice to see. 00:18:58.320 --> 00:18:58.937 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:18:58.937 --> 00:19:00.520 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: I don't have much to add 00:19:00.520 --> 00:19:05.770 align:middle line:84% except that, for instance, the production of music in Jamaica 00:19:05.770 --> 00:19:08.050 align:middle line:90% and in the Caribbean-- 00:19:08.050 --> 00:19:10.400 align:middle line:84% I don't have to add, I just mention that. 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:12.790 align:middle line:84% And you can imagine the rest, to tell you 00:19:12.790 --> 00:19:15.550 align:middle line:84% the beauty of the sovereign people, because it's not 00:19:15.550 --> 00:19:19.570 align:middle line:84% music from the high classes that make Jamaica-- 00:19:19.570 --> 00:19:22.720 align:middle line:90% that put Jamaica on the map. 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:25.520 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: That's right. 00:19:25.520 --> 00:19:27.050 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Hello, I'm Iana Ferguson. 00:19:27.050 --> 00:19:29.300 align:middle line:84% I'm from St. Vincent and the Grenadines. 00:19:29.300 --> 00:19:32.630 align:middle line:84% I took this class because I grew up in St. Vincent, 00:19:32.630 --> 00:19:34.820 align:middle line:84% so I've always had knowledge of Caribbean history 00:19:34.820 --> 00:19:36.870 align:middle line:84% from a Caribbean person's perspective. 00:19:36.870 --> 00:19:38.450 align:middle line:84% So I was interested to see how it 00:19:38.450 --> 00:19:42.480 align:middle line:84% would look from an American's perspective in this class. 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.530 align:middle line:84% And so that's why I took the class. 00:19:45.530 --> 00:19:49.730 align:middle line:84% My main project in the class is examining the linguistic chains 00:19:49.730 --> 00:19:50.750 align:middle line:90% in the Caribbean. 00:19:50.750 --> 00:19:53.810 align:middle line:84% And the running theme was the song "Redemption Song" 00:19:53.810 --> 00:19:55.460 align:middle line:90% by Bob Marley. 00:19:55.460 --> 00:19:57.575 align:middle line:84% So I used the lines, "Emancipate yourself 00:19:57.575 --> 00:20:00.320 align:middle line:84% from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds." 00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:03.210 align:middle line:84% And that was my main idea for my project. 00:20:03.210 --> 00:20:06.080 align:middle line:84% So I'm investigating why people in the Caribbean 00:20:06.080 --> 00:20:08.480 align:middle line:90% speak the way that they do. 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:12.200 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: St. Vincent is a very, very special country. 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:14.450 align:middle line:84% Actually, St. Vincent is the link 00:20:14.450 --> 00:20:19.070 align:middle line:84% between the Amerindians and the African-born people, 00:20:19.070 --> 00:20:20.900 align:middle line:90% with the Garifunas in Belize. 00:20:20.900 --> 00:20:22.610 align:middle line:90% You can imagine St. Vincent. 00:20:22.610 --> 00:20:25.550 align:middle line:84% And the Garifunas in Belize, which are Belizeans, 00:20:25.550 --> 00:20:30.350 align:middle line:84% their lost paradise is St. Vincent, it's not Africa. 00:20:30.350 --> 00:20:34.172 align:middle line:84% And if they call us Creoles, the Black 00:20:34.172 --> 00:20:36.380 align:middle line:84% coming from the Caribbean, because they are distinct. 00:20:36.380 --> 00:20:38.630 align:middle line:84% They are from St. Vincent and they are Garifunas 00:20:38.630 --> 00:20:43.850 align:middle line:84% and they are the living presence of the Caribbean-- 00:20:43.850 --> 00:20:46.040 align:middle line:90% of the Caribs, sorry. 00:20:46.040 --> 00:20:50.900 align:middle line:84% And St. Vincent has some other interesting aspects 00:20:50.900 --> 00:20:53.240 align:middle line:90% also with regard to Creole. 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:56.090 align:middle line:84% When the British took over Trinidad, 00:20:56.090 --> 00:21:00.920 align:middle line:84% I mean when the Spaniards gave Trinidad to the British, 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:02.990 align:middle line:84% the British could not put order in Trinidad 00:21:02.990 --> 00:21:06.920 align:middle line:84% because the police and the population speak Creole. 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:09.350 align:middle line:84% And the British always thought that the police 00:21:09.350 --> 00:21:12.042 align:middle line:84% and the population were "de connivence"-- what 00:21:12.042 --> 00:21:13.283 align:middle line:90% is that in English? 00:21:13.283 --> 00:21:14.450 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Conspiring-- 00:21:14.450 --> 00:21:16.408 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: --conspiring against the British. 00:21:16.408 --> 00:21:20.360 align:middle line:84% So they did, they had a set of Bajans and Vincentians 00:21:20.360 --> 00:21:24.140 align:middle line:84% come at policemen because they were monolingual. 00:21:24.140 --> 00:21:25.850 align:middle line:90% So that helped the British. 00:21:25.850 --> 00:21:28.040 align:middle line:90% No, but-- that is another-- 00:21:28.040 --> 00:21:29.473 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHING] 00:21:29.473 --> 00:21:31.640 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Language can be used as a tool for-- 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:32.540 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Oh, yes. 00:21:32.540 --> 00:21:33.373 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:21:33.373 --> 00:21:36.590 align:middle line:84% And also now they feel at ease because the Bajans 00:21:36.590 --> 00:21:39.650 align:middle line:84% and the Vincentian do not speak Creole. 00:21:39.650 --> 00:21:41.210 align:middle line:84% That gives them another opportunity. 00:21:41.210 --> 00:21:44.570 align:middle line:84% But St. Vincent is very important for this. 00:21:44.570 --> 00:21:52.230 align:middle line:84% It also, ah, the co-presence of Black Caribs and Red Caribs. 00:21:52.230 --> 00:21:57.200 align:middle line:84% And this is in itself also very, very, very important. 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:00.440 align:middle line:84% They have a way of calling the Caribbean plantation America. 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:02.360 align:middle line:84% So what do we have to do with plantation? 00:22:02.360 --> 00:22:05.090 align:middle line:84% Plantation is a European institution. 00:22:05.090 --> 00:22:08.780 align:middle line:84% I mean, so let's see the diversity within our countries. 00:22:08.780 --> 00:22:12.990 align:middle line:84% You see, and that's a very, very, very diverse country. 00:22:12.990 --> 00:22:14.750 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So my name is Merelin Maldonado. 00:22:14.750 --> 00:22:17.630 align:middle line:84% I was born in the Dominican Republic. 00:22:17.630 --> 00:22:20.610 align:middle line:84% I've lived in New York for about 12 years now. 00:22:20.610 --> 00:22:23.000 align:middle line:84% And I think my main reason behind taking 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:24.573 align:middle line:84% this class is that I have grown up 00:22:24.573 --> 00:22:26.240 align:middle line:84% in a very Dominican neighborhood, a very 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:27.480 align:middle line:90% Dominican household. 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:31.370 align:middle line:84% So I had very, I wouldn't say negative, but more tolerant 00:22:31.370 --> 00:22:32.300 align:middle line:90% ideas about Haiti. 00:22:32.300 --> 00:22:35.280 align:middle line:84% And I wasn't really that knowledgeable about Haiti. 00:22:35.280 --> 00:22:37.550 align:middle line:84% But I wanted to learn more, you know, 00:22:37.550 --> 00:22:41.420 align:middle line:84% sort of like de-indoctrinate myself from what 00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:43.620 align:middle line:90% I had known before. 00:22:43.620 --> 00:22:45.230 align:middle line:84% And because of that, in this class, 00:22:45.230 --> 00:22:48.410 align:middle line:84% I've gotten the chance to learn more about Dominican Spanish 00:22:48.410 --> 00:22:49.620 align:middle line:90% through my own research. 00:22:49.620 --> 00:22:52.340 align:middle line:84% But also we were able to read The Farming of Bones 00:22:52.340 --> 00:22:53.570 align:middle line:90% by Edwidge Danticat. 00:22:53.570 --> 00:22:57.290 align:middle line:84% And I really like getting to interview the people around me 00:22:57.290 --> 00:22:58.910 align:middle line:84% and seeing, what they actually know 00:22:58.910 --> 00:23:01.040 align:middle line:84% about the history between DR and Haiti, 00:23:01.040 --> 00:23:02.940 align:middle line:90% because I barely knew anything. 00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:06.770 align:middle line:84% And I just wanted to look more into that, 00:23:06.770 --> 00:23:09.410 align:middle line:84% and just seeing how much we don't know 00:23:09.410 --> 00:23:11.630 align:middle line:84% and how much more work we have to do 00:23:11.630 --> 00:23:13.820 align:middle line:90% is just so surprising to me. 00:23:13.820 --> 00:23:16.430 align:middle line:84% And yeah, I think that's why I took this class. 00:23:16.430 --> 00:23:19.310 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Well, as I was telling you before we started, 00:23:19.310 --> 00:23:21.620 align:middle line:90% the DR and us-- 00:23:21.620 --> 00:23:25.790 align:middle line:84% well, I still would say we are two wings of the same bird, 00:23:25.790 --> 00:23:29.930 align:middle line:84% even though this sentence was used for Cuba and Puerto Rico. 00:23:29.930 --> 00:23:31.550 align:middle line:84% But that's the fact, we live together. 00:23:31.550 --> 00:23:32.450 align:middle line:90% We are the-- 00:23:32.450 --> 00:23:36.170 align:middle line:84% I think the only case of two countries in the same island. 00:23:36.170 --> 00:23:40.100 align:middle line:84% If they are two cases in the world, we are one of them, no? 00:23:40.100 --> 00:23:45.590 align:middle line:84% But what is interesting is how we have increased 00:23:45.590 --> 00:23:47.810 align:middle line:90% the diversity of the Caribbean. 00:23:47.810 --> 00:23:51.950 align:middle line:84% When I spent 10 years in Trinidad working with the UN, 00:23:51.950 --> 00:23:56.510 align:middle line:84% and my friends in the academic community 00:23:56.510 --> 00:23:59.540 align:middle line:84% think of in terms of plantation America. 00:23:59.540 --> 00:24:03.140 align:middle line:84% And they would say free village societies and Bush Negros 00:24:03.140 --> 00:24:05.630 align:middle line:84% and counter plantation, this is marginal. 00:24:05.630 --> 00:24:13.130 align:middle line:84% The core of development is-- no, I mean if you take that line, 00:24:13.130 --> 00:24:15.140 align:middle line:84% you have equality at the end of time. 00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:17.600 align:middle line:84% You will never reach-- because plantation 00:24:17.600 --> 00:24:20.210 align:middle line:84% is what plantation is, a capitalist institution, 00:24:20.210 --> 00:24:21.830 align:middle line:90% economic institution. 00:24:21.830 --> 00:24:26.300 align:middle line:84% While, to face that institution, we 00:24:26.300 --> 00:24:29.540 align:middle line:84% had created all the things like the bush societies, 00:24:29.540 --> 00:24:31.190 align:middle line:90% like the free village system. 00:24:31.190 --> 00:24:33.740 align:middle line:84% And the place where you can see that 00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:36.620 align:middle line:84% is the DR, because, when you see the DR, 00:24:36.620 --> 00:24:39.980 align:middle line:84% this is what Columbus started, washing away 00:24:39.980 --> 00:24:45.140 align:middle line:84% all the old Tainos and all, ah, vestiges of pre-Columbian, 00:24:45.140 --> 00:24:49.970 align:middle line:84% what you imagine as pre-Columbian civilization. 00:24:49.970 --> 00:24:54.620 align:middle line:84% And then starts a set of coexistence 00:24:54.620 --> 00:24:57.020 align:middle line:84% of remnants of the Spanish group, 00:24:57.020 --> 00:25:01.040 align:middle line:84% the poor Spaniards who could not follow with Cortez toward Cuba, 00:25:01.040 --> 00:25:02.420 align:middle line:90% et cetera, no? 00:25:02.420 --> 00:25:05.420 align:middle line:84% Then the Spanish Blacks, Latinos, 00:25:05.420 --> 00:25:09.590 align:middle line:84% who were enslaved in Spain and came to the Dominican Republic. 00:25:09.590 --> 00:25:13.070 align:middle line:84% Then a set of enslaved they imported from Africa, 00:25:13.070 --> 00:25:15.530 align:middle line:84% then a set of runaways from Jamaica 00:25:15.530 --> 00:25:19.880 align:middle line:84% who went and established themself in Santo Domingo, all 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:22.010 align:middle line:84% these before even the French took over 00:25:22.010 --> 00:25:25.227 align:middle line:84% in the western part of the country. 00:25:25.227 --> 00:25:26.060 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:25:26.060 --> 00:25:29.430 align:middle line:84% And this will give you a type of society. 00:25:29.430 --> 00:25:32.720 align:middle line:84% What is also very important and interesting in Dominican 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.930 align:middle line:84% Republic is that they have that Spanish tradition 00:25:35.930 --> 00:25:37.280 align:middle line:90% of the ejidos. 00:25:37.280 --> 00:25:41.390 align:middle line:84% Ejidos is a form of communal ownership 00:25:41.390 --> 00:25:44.150 align:middle line:84% of the land, which the Amerindian had 00:25:44.150 --> 00:25:47.810 align:middle line:90% and the Spaniards conserved it. 00:25:47.810 --> 00:25:51.470 align:middle line:84% And this gave a certain freedom of the population 00:25:51.470 --> 00:25:55.490 align:middle line:84% and an element to negotiate the plantation system. 00:25:55.490 --> 00:25:59.480 align:middle line:84% Well, and the DR brings something back 00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:01.580 align:middle line:84% to the diversity of the Caribbean. 00:26:01.580 --> 00:26:03.740 align:middle line:90% The Spaniards came back. 00:26:03.740 --> 00:26:08.090 align:middle line:84% I mean they recolonized the country, not during long, 00:26:08.090 --> 00:26:14.060 align:middle line:84% but enough to do much harm and to establish white supremacy, 00:26:14.060 --> 00:26:18.140 align:middle line:84% not only in the country, but in the head of the oligarchy 00:26:18.140 --> 00:26:19.310 align:middle line:90% of Saint-Domingue. 00:26:19.310 --> 00:26:24.960 align:middle line:84% And this reconquest will be done against the Haitian position, 00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:27.440 align:middle line:84% which had abolished obviously slavery, 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:32.870 align:middle line:84% et cetera, et cetera, at a time when Cuba and Puerto Rico still 00:26:32.870 --> 00:26:34.090 align:middle line:90% had slaves. 00:26:34.090 --> 00:26:36.170 align:middle line:84% And one of the problems of the Spaniards 00:26:36.170 --> 00:26:38.180 align:middle line:84% is that they said, "You want to enslave us? 00:26:38.180 --> 00:26:39.200 align:middle line:90% No way!" 00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:40.913 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:26:40.913 --> 00:26:42.205 align:middle line:90% This is very, very interesting. 00:26:42.205 --> 00:26:43.590 align:middle line:90% And it's very important. 00:26:43.590 --> 00:26:48.157 align:middle line:84% It's not to such an extent that in the DR and in Haiti, 00:26:48.157 --> 00:26:50.490 align:middle line:84% they are brothers and sisters and they have no problems. 00:26:50.490 --> 00:26:54.560 align:middle line:84% But the two oligarchies, they are like cat and dog. 00:26:54.560 --> 00:26:57.440 align:middle line:90% They can't stand each other. 00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:59.750 align:middle line:84% But underneath they are very friendly. 00:26:59.750 --> 00:27:01.670 align:middle line:84% And they are making their money quietly. 00:27:01.670 --> 00:27:03.120 align:middle line:90% But you should hear them. 00:27:03.120 --> 00:27:06.510 align:middle line:84% So they prepare the population to hate each other. 00:27:06.510 --> 00:27:09.950 align:middle line:84% This is their job, to make us fight, et cetera. 00:27:09.950 --> 00:27:11.930 align:middle line:84% I think that you have a very good position 00:27:11.930 --> 00:27:14.330 align:middle line:84% to observe the diversity of the Caribbean 00:27:14.330 --> 00:27:17.600 align:middle line:84% and the importance of the non-plantation system, 00:27:17.600 --> 00:27:20.240 align:middle line:84% even though you have probably one of the best 00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:24.140 align:middle line:90% actual systems of plantation. 00:27:24.140 --> 00:27:27.338 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: There's a book called Why the Cocks Fight. 00:27:27.338 --> 00:27:28.130 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Yeah? 00:27:28.130 --> 00:27:30.547 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So it's a book about the history of the DR 00:27:30.547 --> 00:27:31.180 align:middle line:90% and Haiti. 00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:34.850 align:middle line:84% As you mentioned, they make sure that they fight. 00:27:34.850 --> 00:27:36.197 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Oh, yeah, yeah. 00:27:36.197 --> 00:27:37.030 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Why? 00:27:37.030 --> 00:27:42.050 align:middle line:84% Because when you go to the cockfighting, 00:27:42.050 --> 00:27:45.200 align:middle line:84% the humans are the ones making the cocks fight. 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:46.655 align:middle line:90% The cocks don't want to fight. 00:27:46.655 --> 00:27:49.940 align:middle line:84% The cocks are not meant to fight so much. 00:27:49.940 --> 00:27:52.910 align:middle line:84% So it's such a powerful metaphor, 00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:55.220 align:middle line:84% that the DR and Haiti, why do they fight? 00:27:55.220 --> 00:27:56.870 align:middle line:84% Why they fight, basically like why 00:27:56.870 --> 00:27:59.162 align:middle line:84% the cocks fight, because they have other people pushing 00:27:59.162 --> 00:28:02.750 align:middle line:90% them to fight Yeah. 00:28:02.750 --> 00:28:05.750 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Hi, I'm Gabrielle. 00:28:05.750 --> 00:28:07.370 align:middle line:90% And I'm Jamaican. 00:28:07.370 --> 00:28:10.490 align:middle line:84% And I took this class because I really 00:28:10.490 --> 00:28:13.710 align:middle line:84% don't know much about my people's history like that. 00:28:13.710 --> 00:28:17.570 align:middle line:84% So anything that says Caribbean culture lessons or something, 00:28:17.570 --> 00:28:20.840 align:middle line:84% I was always interested in because I 00:28:20.840 --> 00:28:22.250 align:middle line:90% was raised by my mother. 00:28:22.250 --> 00:28:26.630 align:middle line:84% And although she has fun stories about school life in Jamaica 00:28:26.630 --> 00:28:30.020 align:middle line:84% and stuff like that, she never really told me much 00:28:30.020 --> 00:28:32.420 align:middle line:90% about the history of Jamaica. 00:28:32.420 --> 00:28:35.730 align:middle line:84% So I only knew surface level stuff. 00:28:35.730 --> 00:28:37.730 align:middle line:90% And I wanted to go in more. 00:28:37.730 --> 00:28:43.460 align:middle line:84% And my project was on how European nations to this day 00:28:43.460 --> 00:28:47.690 align:middle line:84% have some type of economic power in the Caribbean, 00:28:47.690 --> 00:28:51.080 align:middle line:84% despite them trying to form their own economic power, 00:28:51.080 --> 00:28:56.790 align:middle line:84% and how Europe kind of uses hegemony to build off of that. 00:28:56.790 --> 00:28:58.745 align:middle line:84% And I thought that was pretty interesting. 00:28:58.745 --> 00:28:59.870 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: It is indeed. 00:28:59.870 --> 00:29:03.416 align:middle line:90% 00:29:03.416 --> 00:29:08.090 align:middle line:84% I must say that Jamaica has probably the best 00:29:08.090 --> 00:29:10.100 align:middle line:90% historians of the Caribbean. 00:29:10.100 --> 00:29:11.690 align:middle line:84% Yesterday I was privileged enough 00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:13.280 align:middle line:84% to have dinner with one of them, which 00:29:13.280 --> 00:29:18.950 align:middle line:84% is Vince Brown, Vincent Brown, who just came out 00:29:18.950 --> 00:29:21.440 align:middle line:84% with a tremendous book you certainly 00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.430 align:middle line:90% have all read now, Tacky-- 00:29:24.430 --> 00:29:25.870 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Tacky's Revolt. 00:29:25.870 --> 00:29:27.190 align:middle line:90% 00:29:27.190 --> 00:29:31.870 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: I mean one of the best stories of how 00:29:31.870 --> 00:29:35.467 align:middle line:84% the Africans in the Caribbean fought for themselves 00:29:35.467 --> 00:29:36.550 align:middle line:90% and maintained themselves. 00:29:36.550 --> 00:29:41.320 align:middle line:84% Jamaica has this peculiarity of having forced the British 00:29:41.320 --> 00:29:44.200 align:middle line:90% to recognize this difference. 00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:52.200 align:middle line:84% And this is to my mind very important 00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:56.400 align:middle line:84% how we have been able to defend ourselves 00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:03.130 align:middle line:84% to keep our differences and to reproduce it. 00:30:03.130 --> 00:30:06.000 align:middle line:84% So what you have is that, for instance, one of the reasons 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:10.680 align:middle line:84% why Haiti was independent, I mentioned the fact 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:12.000 align:middle line:90% that the British was going up. 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.870 align:middle line:84% But the other reason is that when in 1804 and the French 00:30:15.870 --> 00:30:16.380 align:middle line:90% was-- 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:20.670 align:middle line:84% before in 1791, when the French were in crisis, 00:30:20.670 --> 00:30:23.370 align:middle line:84% 60% of the Haitians came from Africa, 00:30:23.370 --> 00:30:25.500 align:middle line:90% was African-born people. 00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:28.860 align:middle line:84% And it is those people "Tacky's revolution" 00:30:28.860 --> 00:30:31.537 align:middle line:84% is describing, a set of people coming straight from Africa. 00:30:31.537 --> 00:30:32.370 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:30:32.370 --> 00:30:39.450 align:middle line:84% So this gives you an idea of the conservation of an identity you 00:30:39.450 --> 00:30:41.760 align:middle line:90% have received in your village. 00:30:41.760 --> 00:30:46.140 align:middle line:84% And here, the opposition you have 00:30:46.140 --> 00:30:49.270 align:middle line:84% against the system that is-- and how are you finding that. 00:30:49.270 --> 00:30:52.680 align:middle line:84% But in between, what is important, and this 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:56.940 align:middle line:84% is where the Caribbean appeals, is that you come from Congo, 00:30:56.940 --> 00:30:58.020 align:middle line:90% you come from-- 00:30:58.020 --> 00:31:01.825 align:middle line:84% you are Ashanti, you are Wolof, you are Zulu, 00:31:01.825 --> 00:31:02.700 align:middle line:90% you know what I mean? 00:31:02.700 --> 00:31:06.420 align:middle line:84% And we all are coming to becoming Jamaicans. 00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:09.900 align:middle line:84% So the process of unification is where 00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:13.980 align:middle line:84% we are going to create a new identity, which is Caribbean. 00:31:13.980 --> 00:31:16.780 align:middle line:90% While, to follow your-- 00:31:16.780 --> 00:31:20.200 align:middle line:84% the institution created by Europe 00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:25.160 align:middle line:84% wants you to be homogenized individuals 00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:27.740 align:middle line:84% without a community, without an identity proper. 00:31:27.740 --> 00:31:29.630 align:middle line:84% So you are supposed to be British. 00:31:29.630 --> 00:31:34.700 align:middle line:84% For instance, I was one day with two of my great friends, 00:31:34.700 --> 00:31:35.510 align:middle line:90% both of them. 00:31:35.510 --> 00:31:40.750 align:middle line:84% But one of them is from the DR, the other one from St. Lucia, 00:31:40.750 --> 00:31:43.750 align:middle line:90% and really high-level persons. 00:31:43.750 --> 00:31:51.030 align:middle line:84% And the friend from the DR say, oh, we are Afro-Latin. 00:31:51.030 --> 00:31:54.883 align:middle line:84% I say, I beg your pardon, because 00:31:54.883 --> 00:31:56.300 align:middle line:84% in the English-speaking countries, 00:31:56.300 --> 00:31:59.090 align:middle line:84% it's nearly an offense to tell somebody they're Afro-Saxon. 00:31:59.090 --> 00:32:02.120 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:32:02.120 --> 00:32:04.580 align:middle line:84% And she defined herself as Afro-Latin. 00:32:04.580 --> 00:32:06.980 align:middle line:84% And I say, well, me, I'm no Afro-Latin. 00:32:06.980 --> 00:32:08.120 align:middle line:90% What are you, then? 00:32:08.120 --> 00:32:10.860 align:middle line:84% Well, I happen to be Caribbean, Caribbean, and Caribbean, 00:32:10.860 --> 00:32:11.360 align:middle line:90% full stop. 00:32:11.360 --> 00:32:15.170 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] There is no Afro-Saxon, no Afro-Latin. 00:32:15.170 --> 00:32:16.310 align:middle line:90% We are Caribbean. 00:32:16.310 --> 00:32:18.710 align:middle line:84% In our diversity-- and this is what 00:32:18.710 --> 00:32:23.660 align:middle line:84% makes us really peculiar and different from any other form 00:32:23.660 --> 00:32:27.710 align:middle line:84% of Blackness, you know what I mean, no matter where you go. 00:32:27.710 --> 00:32:30.200 align:middle line:84% Well, I will not expand on that because-- 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:30.770 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: It's fascinating. 00:32:30.770 --> 00:32:32.020 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Yes, yes indeed. 00:32:32.020 --> 00:32:33.960 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So Gabby made a TikTok-- 00:32:33.960 --> 00:32:36.470 align:middle line:84% talking about the technology and peyi lòk. 00:32:36.470 --> 00:32:38.863 align:middle line:84% So should we watch Gabby's TikTok together? 00:32:38.863 --> 00:32:39.530 align:middle line:90% [VIDEO PLAYBACK] 00:32:39.530 --> 00:32:42.770 align:middle line:90% OK, so what is CARICOM? 00:32:42.770 --> 00:32:45.050 align:middle line:84% CARICOM, shorthand for the Caribbean community 00:32:45.050 --> 00:32:47.330 align:middle line:84% and common market, is an organization made up 00:32:47.330 --> 00:32:48.890 align:middle line:84% of the Caribbean and Latin Americas 00:32:48.890 --> 00:32:51.560 align:middle line:84% to promote economic growth and integration 00:32:51.560 --> 00:32:53.690 align:middle line:90% with the rest of the market. 00:32:53.690 --> 00:32:56.000 align:middle line:84% On their own website, they describe themselves 00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:58.850 align:middle line:84% as developing countries who have connections 00:32:58.850 --> 00:33:02.090 align:middle line:84% to markets in both North and South America. 00:33:02.090 --> 00:33:06.380 align:middle line:84% So their goal? basically, to be taken seriously and get 00:33:06.380 --> 00:33:09.120 align:middle line:84% Caribbean economies on the market. 00:33:09.120 --> 00:33:12.523 align:middle line:84% However their plan of execution is essentially 00:33:12.523 --> 00:33:13.940 align:middle line:84% to sell themselves to the ones who 00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:17.390 align:middle line:84% matter the most in the game, European nations. 00:33:17.390 --> 00:33:19.640 align:middle line:84% Their "Who we are" statement on their website 00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:22.460 align:middle line:84% kind of seems to confirm this, as they 00:33:22.460 --> 00:33:25.070 align:middle line:84% describe their community as multilingual, 00:33:25.070 --> 00:33:28.610 align:middle line:84% and go on to include English, French, and Dutch 00:33:28.610 --> 00:33:30.860 align:middle line:90% as their main languages. 00:33:30.860 --> 00:33:34.070 align:middle line:84% Now the language portion of this is really important 00:33:34.070 --> 00:33:36.680 align:middle line:84% because it is very symbolic when it 00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:40.730 align:middle line:84% comes to colonized-and-colonizer relationships. 00:33:40.730 --> 00:33:42.620 align:middle line:84% In the Caribbean, for example, most people 00:33:42.620 --> 00:33:45.080 align:middle line:84% speak some Creole or Patois derived 00:33:45.080 --> 00:33:47.810 align:middle line:84% from a blend of Indigenous and African languages, 00:33:47.810 --> 00:33:50.240 align:middle line:84% as well as the language of their colonizer. 00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.330 align:middle line:84% These languages, despite being common tongues, 00:33:53.330 --> 00:33:55.340 align:middle line:90% are often treated as lesser. 00:33:55.340 --> 00:33:59.000 align:middle line:84% And the most prevalent example of this is Haiti's relationship 00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:01.220 align:middle line:84% with the French, who-- surprise, surprise!-- 00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:04.610 align:middle line:84% has had a stake in keeping Haiti a country. 00:34:04.610 --> 00:34:07.380 align:middle line:90% [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] 00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:31.310 align:middle line:90% 00:34:31.310 --> 00:34:34.010 align:middle line:84% Haiti's government has had a history of disregarding 00:34:34.010 --> 00:34:36.679 align:middle line:84% their mother tongue of Kreyòl, despite it being one 00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:37.865 align:middle line:84% of their two national languages [ed. note: 00:34:37.865 --> 00:34:38.948 align:middle line:90% "two official languages"]. 00:34:38.948 --> 00:34:41.179 align:middle line:84% The second one, take a wild guess. 00:34:41.179 --> 00:34:44.659 align:middle line:84% Funnily enough, roughly 5% to 10% of Haitians 00:34:44.659 --> 00:34:46.699 align:middle line:84% can actually speak French fluently, 00:34:46.699 --> 00:34:49.010 align:middle line:90% and those are usually the elite. 00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:52.940 align:middle line:84% Considering the active push in schools to speak French 00:34:52.940 --> 00:34:55.639 align:middle line:84% by literally only teaching in French, 00:34:55.639 --> 00:34:59.420 align:middle line:84% you can see why schools in Haiti aren't exactly thriving, 00:34:59.420 --> 00:35:03.960 align:middle line:84% and why they needed to join CARICOM in the first place. 00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:06.110 align:middle line:84% So Haiti, like the rest of CARICOM, 00:35:06.110 --> 00:35:07.790 align:middle line:84% wants better economic opportunities 00:35:07.790 --> 00:35:10.100 align:middle line:84% for their country and their people. 00:35:10.100 --> 00:35:13.610 align:middle line:84% Yet the French seem to be getting in the way, 00:35:13.610 --> 00:35:17.480 align:middle line:84% as they have historically always done. 00:35:17.480 --> 00:35:20.780 align:middle line:84% So Haiti needs out of the disparities 00:35:20.780 --> 00:35:22.010 align:middle line:90% the French have put them in. 00:35:22.010 --> 00:35:26.910 align:middle line:84% Yet French rely on Francophone countries to keep them relevant 00:35:26.910 --> 00:35:28.130 align:middle line:90% and in power. 00:35:28.130 --> 00:35:30.500 align:middle line:90% So what do they do? 00:35:30.500 --> 00:35:31.880 align:middle line:90% Money. 00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:34.610 align:middle line:84% They throw money at the situation, 00:35:34.610 --> 00:35:36.590 align:middle line:84% and then declare that they know best. 00:35:36.590 --> 00:35:39.770 align:middle line:90% 00:35:39.770 --> 00:35:41.450 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: That's impressive. 00:35:41.450 --> 00:35:42.170 align:middle line:90% Wonderful. 00:35:42.170 --> 00:35:45.297 align:middle line:90% 00:35:45.297 --> 00:35:46.380 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: It's funny, too. 00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:47.730 align:middle line:90% That's what's so good about it. 00:35:47.730 --> 00:35:49.710 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Well done, well done. 00:35:49.710 --> 00:35:51.276 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: "Have a wild guess"! 00:35:51.276 --> 00:35:52.734 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:35:52.734 --> 00:35:54.330 align:middle line:90% 00:35:54.330 --> 00:35:55.830 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Vivien, you're last. 00:35:55.830 --> 00:35:56.880 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I'm Vivien. 00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:59.610 align:middle line:90% Hi, I'm Vivien. 00:35:59.610 --> 00:36:03.090 align:middle line:90% And I'm in this class-- 00:36:03.090 --> 00:36:04.290 align:middle line:90% I'm from Palestine. 00:36:04.290 --> 00:36:11.730 align:middle line:84% And I have been over the last decade and a half of my life 00:36:11.730 --> 00:36:18.540 align:middle line:84% working with peasant communities in recovering ourselves 00:36:18.540 --> 00:36:21.150 align:middle line:84% through recovering our seed heritage. 00:36:21.150 --> 00:36:24.840 align:middle line:84% And so I'm very interested in imagination 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:29.430 align:middle line:84% and how our imagination can help us 00:36:29.430 --> 00:36:31.080 align:middle line:90% in the journey of liberation. 00:36:31.080 --> 00:36:37.020 align:middle line:84% So for me, the Caribbean is such a rich place to learn from 00:36:37.020 --> 00:36:42.153 align:middle line:84% and to understand from other people's experiences 00:36:42.153 --> 00:36:44.070 align:middle line:84% that have a lot of similarities, and obviously 00:36:44.070 --> 00:36:46.450 align:middle line:90% a lot of uniqueness to it. 00:36:46.450 --> 00:36:51.750 align:middle line:84% How do we find our power and our beauty in them? 00:36:51.750 --> 00:36:55.440 align:middle line:84% And how can our beauty, as we uncover it-- 00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:56.970 align:middle line:90% we've been told it's ugly-- 00:36:56.970 --> 00:37:01.500 align:middle line:84% how can we really accentuate our beauty, 00:37:01.500 --> 00:37:06.400 align:middle line:84% if you can extract it again to regain power in ourselves. 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:14.370 align:middle line:84% So I find a lot in the Caribbean for me, and the beauty of it, 00:37:14.370 --> 00:37:19.620 align:middle line:84% and the beauty of also finding power inside the wounds 00:37:19.620 --> 00:37:22.160 align:middle line:90% that we have. 00:37:22.160 --> 00:37:23.997 align:middle line:90% That's why I'm in this class. 00:37:23.997 --> 00:37:25.330 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Thank you, Vivien. 00:37:25.330 --> 00:37:29.150 align:middle line:90% I will not comment on that. 00:37:29.150 --> 00:37:29.840 align:middle line:90% No, no, no, no. 00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:34.130 align:middle line:84% I mean, this is very important because in fact, I 00:37:34.130 --> 00:37:39.170 align:middle line:84% think the results of the work I've done in the book we have 00:37:39.170 --> 00:37:45.250 align:middle line:84% in front of us is that our sole wealth is our imagination, 00:37:45.250 --> 00:37:47.860 align:middle line:84% because if you take the people coming 00:37:47.860 --> 00:37:52.630 align:middle line:84% from Africa in the Caribbean, we are the majority. 00:37:52.630 --> 00:37:55.060 align:middle line:90% Now we came like worms. 00:37:55.060 --> 00:37:56.650 align:middle line:90% We had just nothing. 00:37:56.650 --> 00:38:00.460 align:middle line:84% And we are individuals, naked, naked individuals 00:38:00.460 --> 00:38:01.870 align:middle line:90% with no contact, nothing. 00:38:01.870 --> 00:38:03.610 align:middle line:84% There doesn't exist an individual 00:38:03.610 --> 00:38:06.140 align:middle line:90% in the world who is alone. 00:38:06.140 --> 00:38:09.020 align:middle line:84% I mean an individual is-- comes from a community. 00:38:09.020 --> 00:38:12.280 align:middle line:84% So the first thing we built was a community. 00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.310 align:middle line:84% But building a community was exactly 00:38:15.310 --> 00:38:19.570 align:middle line:84% opposing the power of the plantation system, no? 00:38:19.570 --> 00:38:21.760 align:middle line:84% With what did we build the community? 00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:24.040 align:middle line:84% With our mind, with our imagination. 00:38:24.040 --> 00:38:31.610 align:middle line:84% To give you only one example, the European family 00:38:31.610 --> 00:38:34.510 align:middle line:84% is based on private property, no? 00:38:34.510 --> 00:38:39.460 align:middle line:84% The definition of an enslaving [INAUDIBLE] is he or she who 00:38:39.460 --> 00:38:43.120 align:middle line:84% cannot possess anything that does not belong to his master. 00:38:43.120 --> 00:38:46.150 align:middle line:90% So obviously we had nothing, no? 00:38:46.150 --> 00:38:48.610 align:middle line:90% Yet we create family. 00:38:48.610 --> 00:38:51.850 align:middle line:84% We find a way of bypassing this element. 00:38:51.850 --> 00:38:56.200 align:middle line:84% Obviously our families will be called non-family, promiscuous, 00:38:56.200 --> 00:38:57.940 align:middle line:90% or all sorts of things. 00:38:57.940 --> 00:39:03.070 align:middle line:84% They try to deface the product of our imagination. 00:39:03.070 --> 00:39:08.470 align:middle line:84% And up to now, up to now, they cannot cope with our family 00:39:08.470 --> 00:39:09.970 align:middle line:90% system. 00:39:09.970 --> 00:39:15.220 align:middle line:84% If there are two institutions, products of our imagination 00:39:15.220 --> 00:39:22.390 align:middle line:84% that are defaced, vilipended, that we despise, 00:39:22.390 --> 00:39:24.340 align:middle line:90% it's voodoo and family. 00:39:24.340 --> 00:39:27.430 align:middle line:84% And they are the less understood institutions. 00:39:27.430 --> 00:39:29.875 align:middle line:84% All over the Caribbean, we call it the "Shango Baptist," 00:39:29.875 --> 00:39:31.000 align:middle line:90% call it "Obeah," no matter. 00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:34.030 align:middle line:90% 00:39:34.030 --> 00:39:37.330 align:middle line:84% They don't even know what they are talking about. 00:39:37.330 --> 00:39:41.980 align:middle line:84% And family, they don't understand family, our family. 00:39:41.980 --> 00:39:45.300 align:middle line:84% For instance, in Haiti, family is 00:39:45.300 --> 00:39:49.030 align:middle line:84% supposed to be, ah, patriarchal, matrifocal-- 00:39:49.030 --> 00:39:52.240 align:middle line:84% God knows what, all sort of names. 00:39:52.240 --> 00:39:53.540 align:middle line:90% They don't know what it is. 00:39:53.540 --> 00:39:57.325 align:middle line:84% They just don't know what it is, because, let's see, you 00:39:57.325 --> 00:40:01.270 align:middle line:84% know what happened-- just to finish this comment. 00:40:01.270 --> 00:40:06.370 align:middle line:84% Two persons in any countryside of Haiti, old people, 00:40:06.370 --> 00:40:08.590 align:middle line:84% they go to church, they get married 00:40:08.590 --> 00:40:11.170 align:middle line:84% because they are celebrating their 50 00:40:11.170 --> 00:40:13.030 align:middle line:90% years of living together. 00:40:13.030 --> 00:40:14.920 align:middle line:90% This is when they get married. 00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:17.050 align:middle line:84% They don't get married to have the right 00:40:17.050 --> 00:40:18.820 align:middle line:90% to go to bed with one another. 00:40:18.820 --> 00:40:19.720 align:middle line:90% No, no, no, no. 00:40:19.720 --> 00:40:23.740 align:middle line:84% After being to bed, after having their kids, their grandkids, 00:40:23.740 --> 00:40:26.500 align:middle line:84% et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, now the whole village 00:40:26.500 --> 00:40:28.870 align:middle line:84% is going to celebrate their marriage. 00:40:28.870 --> 00:40:31.930 align:middle line:84% I mean you see our conception of wedding 00:40:31.930 --> 00:40:33.910 align:middle line:84% is not the western conception of wedding. 00:40:33.910 --> 00:40:38.290 align:middle line:84% How could we have that if not imagining another institution, 00:40:38.290 --> 00:40:40.620 align:middle line:84% working in another setting, creating a story? 00:40:40.620 --> 00:40:43.330 align:middle line:84% Or this is that wealth that bothered them 00:40:43.330 --> 00:40:44.830 align:middle line:90% because we are different. 00:40:44.830 --> 00:40:48.630 align:middle line:90% And a friend of mine in-- 00:40:48.630 --> 00:40:52.470 align:middle line:84% not a friend, but a professor in a Zoom of the Catholic Church 00:40:52.470 --> 00:40:55.420 align:middle line:84% said, listen, what my problem is the following. 00:40:55.420 --> 00:41:00.150 align:middle line:84% If you are a people that is being exploited 00:41:00.150 --> 00:41:04.770 align:middle line:84% by some big master, you will tend to look like the master, 00:41:04.770 --> 00:41:06.270 align:middle line:90% so you can defend yourself. 00:41:06.270 --> 00:41:07.320 align:middle line:90% He's saying that. 00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:11.010 align:middle line:84% But you people, from the beginning you say no. 00:41:11.010 --> 00:41:12.630 align:middle line:90% So how did that happen? 00:41:12.630 --> 00:41:13.470 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:41:13.470 --> 00:41:15.095 align:middle line:84% Obviously this is what I'm telling you. 00:41:15.095 --> 00:41:19.650 align:middle line:84% We were-- from the beginning, we were not 00:41:19.650 --> 00:41:22.860 align:middle line:90% from this line of thought. 00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:25.290 align:middle line:84% The problem is how are we going to maintain 00:41:25.290 --> 00:41:28.260 align:middle line:90% that identity we had, no? 00:41:28.260 --> 00:41:30.840 align:middle line:84% Well, the difference is that we could not 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:33.160 align:middle line:84% because we came like individuals. 00:41:33.160 --> 00:41:35.620 align:middle line:84% So we have to create another community. 00:41:35.620 --> 00:41:38.130 align:middle line:84% And this community is Caribbean made. 00:41:38.130 --> 00:41:39.580 align:middle line:90% It is not from Africa. 00:41:39.580 --> 00:41:40.650 align:middle line:90% It is not from Europe. 00:41:40.650 --> 00:41:42.030 align:middle line:90% It is local. 00:41:42.030 --> 00:41:42.880 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:45.660 align:middle line:84% We create something in difficult condition, 00:41:45.660 --> 00:41:48.990 align:middle line:90% and we are still there. 00:41:48.990 --> 00:41:50.340 align:middle line:90% We do have problems. 00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:53.717 align:middle line:84% I cannot prove to anybody there that Haiti is not the poorest 00:41:53.717 --> 00:41:55.300 align:middle line:84% country in the world, put it that way. 00:41:55.300 --> 00:41:56.610 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Most impoverished, I like to say. 00:41:56.610 --> 00:41:58.318 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: But like some of the people 00:41:58.318 --> 00:42:00.960 align:middle line:84% said-- and by the way, a great Caribbean man, Lloyd Best, 00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:04.140 align:middle line:84% said this is the most developed country of America. 00:42:04.140 --> 00:42:06.040 align:middle line:84% As far as Lloyd Best is concerned, 00:42:06.040 --> 00:42:10.320 align:middle line:84% as far as imagination, as far as self-confidence, as far 00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:15.030 align:middle line:84% as identity, as far as fighting to stay, 00:42:15.030 --> 00:42:19.390 align:middle line:84% because we could disappear, other nations have disappeared, 00:42:19.390 --> 00:42:21.010 align:middle line:90% the Taino disappeared. 00:42:21.010 --> 00:42:21.950 align:middle line:90% We could disappear. 00:42:21.950 --> 00:42:23.680 align:middle line:84% The Haitian probably will disappear. 00:42:23.680 --> 00:42:26.830 align:middle line:84% But the day we forget our basic values, 00:42:26.830 --> 00:42:29.960 align:middle line:84% it is when day when we disappear, not before. 00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:33.520 align:middle line:84% I will not speak of my friends from Palestine. 00:42:33.520 --> 00:42:37.090 align:middle line:84% They are on the verge of, and we are on the verge of. 00:42:37.090 --> 00:42:39.720 align:middle line:84% I mean we are on the verge of, but we will disappear. 00:42:39.720 --> 00:42:44.515 align:middle line:84% But you have in the Caribbean, for instance, in Dominica, cave 00:42:44.515 --> 00:42:49.530 align:middle line:84% called "La Cave des Indiens," the cave of the Indians, where 00:42:49.530 --> 00:42:52.770 align:middle line:84% they found together the bones of 200 Indians who 00:42:52.770 --> 00:42:53.527 align:middle line:90% killed themselves. 00:42:53.527 --> 00:42:54.360 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Wow. 00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:57.362 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Yeah, with the manioc, with the-- 00:42:57.362 --> 00:42:58.320 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Poison? 00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:00.237 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Poison, they poisoned themselves 00:43:00.237 --> 00:43:03.660 align:middle line:84% because they do not want and cannot live under the Spanish, 00:43:03.660 --> 00:43:05.190 align:middle line:90% the Spaniards. 00:43:05.190 --> 00:43:10.650 align:middle line:84% In Mexico, there is also a wonderful example of El Cañón 00:43:10.650 --> 00:43:11.385 align:middle line:90% del Sumidero. 00:43:11.385 --> 00:43:15.900 align:middle line:84% El Cañón, the canyon, Sumidero is well. 00:43:15.900 --> 00:43:20.250 align:middle line:84% Well, what happened is that this group of the First Nation 00:43:20.250 --> 00:43:22.260 align:middle line:84% is fighting against the Spaniards. 00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:25.260 align:middle line:84% And the Spaniards' army is coming and they just cannot 00:43:25.260 --> 00:43:26.530 align:middle line:90% win. 00:43:26.530 --> 00:43:30.390 align:middle line:84% So they put the kids, the ladies, and the warriors. 00:43:30.390 --> 00:43:32.100 align:middle line:84% And they are fighting and they all-- 00:43:32.100 --> 00:43:36.210 align:middle line:90% 00:43:36.210 --> 00:43:37.770 align:middle line:90% they retreat, they retreat. 00:43:37.770 --> 00:43:40.020 align:middle line:90% Everybody fell into the Canyon. 00:43:40.020 --> 00:43:42.180 align:middle line:84% And up to now, you can visit Mexico. 00:43:42.180 --> 00:43:44.520 align:middle line:84% You will visit the Canyon del Sumidero. 00:43:44.520 --> 00:43:47.010 align:middle line:84% I mean certainly there has been genocide. 00:43:47.010 --> 00:43:53.220 align:middle line:84% But the point is that we have chosen a collective suicide. 00:43:53.220 --> 00:43:54.757 align:middle line:90% I mean this is how we lived. 00:43:54.757 --> 00:43:55.590 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:43:55.590 --> 00:44:00.030 align:middle line:84% We prefer to live like that instead of bending our head. 00:44:00.030 --> 00:44:01.800 align:middle line:90% We have done that already. 00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:03.600 align:middle line:90% So OK, we are fighting. 00:44:03.600 --> 00:44:04.170 align:middle line:90% We are poor. 00:44:04.170 --> 00:44:05.160 align:middle line:90% We are weak. 00:44:05.160 --> 00:44:08.100 align:middle line:84% But we ain't going to lower our head. 00:44:08.100 --> 00:44:09.720 align:middle line:90% And this is-- 00:44:09.720 --> 00:44:12.220 align:middle line:84% I say Caribbean because I'm talking about the Caribbean. 00:44:12.220 --> 00:44:15.150 align:middle line:84% But I'll give you an example of Mexico. 00:44:15.150 --> 00:44:17.910 align:middle line:84% And I'm sure you will find that all over, Mexico 00:44:17.910 --> 00:44:19.830 align:middle line:90% with the arrival of. 00:44:19.830 --> 00:44:26.700 align:middle line:84% So one of the points that, in fact, unite us here it 00:44:26.700 --> 00:44:33.250 align:middle line:84% is that we have never thought we were second to nobody, never, 00:44:33.250 --> 00:44:34.540 align:middle line:90% never. 00:44:34.540 --> 00:44:36.670 align:middle line:90% And we cannot think that. 00:44:36.670 --> 00:44:43.660 align:middle line:84% This is why we say equality is the starting point. 00:44:43.660 --> 00:44:46.720 align:middle line:90% It is not the goal. 00:44:46.720 --> 00:44:51.590 align:middle line:84% We have to plan on the basis that we are equal. 00:44:51.590 --> 00:44:58.730 align:middle line:84% So I mean, we have in Haiti a long tradition of contact 00:44:58.730 --> 00:44:59.750 align:middle line:90% with the Palestinians. 00:44:59.750 --> 00:45:06.740 align:middle line:84% In fact, the right arm of Aristide at some point in time, 00:45:06.740 --> 00:45:08.092 align:middle line:90% may he rest in peace. 00:45:08.092 --> 00:45:09.050 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Izmery? 00:45:09.050 --> 00:45:12.200 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Izmery, he was Palestinian. 00:45:12.200 --> 00:45:14.210 align:middle line:90% And oh, yes, indeed. 00:45:14.210 --> 00:45:19.220 align:middle line:84% And well, he was with us in the fight. 00:45:19.220 --> 00:45:21.380 align:middle line:90% And he died for that also. 00:45:21.380 --> 00:45:23.735 align:middle line:90% 00:45:23.735 --> 00:45:25.610 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So what's your project about? 00:45:25.610 --> 00:45:27.615 align:middle line:84% Can you tell us about your project? 00:45:27.615 --> 00:45:28.490 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: My project? 00:45:28.490 --> 00:45:30.690 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yes, for the class. 00:45:30.690 --> 00:45:32.110 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Which one? 00:45:32.110 --> 00:45:33.860 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: The one you want to share, 00:45:33.860 --> 00:45:34.860 align:middle line:90% the one you want to say. 00:45:34.860 --> 00:45:41.900 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I have been extremely interested in Vodou. 00:45:41.900 --> 00:45:48.140 align:middle line:84% And actually, I'm learning a lot about Vodou 00:45:48.140 --> 00:45:52.280 align:middle line:84% in terms of spiritual practice, but also finding 00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:55.160 align:middle line:84% a lot of parallels that I'm finding 00:45:55.160 --> 00:46:01.250 align:middle line:84% with practices in Palestinian heritage that are being-- 00:46:01.250 --> 00:46:07.590 align:middle line:84% we're being told are not right to think in that way. 00:46:07.590 --> 00:46:10.820 align:middle line:84% Like our imagination and our spirituality, 00:46:10.820 --> 00:46:13.490 align:middle line:84% whether it's through people who dream 00:46:13.490 --> 00:46:17.690 align:middle line:84% or people who relate to nature as 00:46:17.690 --> 00:46:23.510 align:middle line:84% also a source of information, through also being taught 00:46:23.510 --> 00:46:28.670 align:middle line:84% by the Catholic schools and all the religious institutions, 00:46:28.670 --> 00:46:30.950 align:middle line:84% that this is not the way we should think. 00:46:30.950 --> 00:46:34.050 align:middle line:84% And that this is primitive and we should throw it away. 00:46:34.050 --> 00:46:36.440 align:middle line:84% And so I'm interested so much in Vodou 00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:39.650 align:middle line:84% because it's also another way of knowing the world 00:46:39.650 --> 00:46:45.440 align:middle line:84% and being in the world that is very liberatory. 00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:48.200 align:middle line:84% And I think there's so much wisdom there 00:46:48.200 --> 00:46:53.100 align:middle line:84% that can really improve our ability to live, 00:46:53.100 --> 00:46:56.630 align:middle line:84% not just in dignity, but also with other beings 00:46:56.630 --> 00:47:00.460 align:middle line:84% that we are equal to other beings. 00:47:00.460 --> 00:47:05.310 align:middle line:84% And I feel like this is an urgent learning for today. 00:47:05.310 --> 00:47:06.830 align:middle line:90% So I am-- 00:47:06.830 --> 00:47:15.020 align:middle line:84% I've interviewed a priestess, a manbo, who is wonderful. 00:47:15.020 --> 00:47:16.700 align:middle line:90% And she's a great storyteller. 00:47:16.700 --> 00:47:20.360 align:middle line:84% So it also shows how telling stories 00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:24.660 align:middle line:84% and how stories are so important in knowing ourselves. 00:47:24.660 --> 00:47:27.170 align:middle line:84% What is the story we tell ourselves, and the ability 00:47:27.170 --> 00:47:29.670 align:middle line:84% to create a new story like the lakou and, you know-- 00:47:29.670 --> 00:47:37.610 align:middle line:84% And so I am exploring that also with myself 00:47:37.610 --> 00:47:39.560 align:middle line:90% and my own dreaming. 00:47:39.560 --> 00:47:41.790 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Yes indeed. 00:47:41.790 --> 00:47:43.490 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yes, thank you. 00:47:43.490 --> 00:47:44.370 align:middle line:90% That was great. 00:47:44.370 --> 00:47:48.440 align:middle line:84% So thanks to all of you for sharing such personal aspects 00:47:48.440 --> 00:47:51.200 align:middle line:90% of yourselves. 00:47:51.200 --> 00:47:53.990 align:middle line:90% So now it's 1:00. 00:47:53.990 --> 00:47:59.160 align:middle line:84% So technically we're supposed to enter the second part of this, 00:47:59.160 --> 00:48:02.490 align:middle line:84% which is Jean, you will introduce, 00:48:02.490 --> 00:48:05.750 align:middle line:84% say a few words about the chapter 8 that we all read. 00:48:05.750 --> 00:48:09.950 align:middle line:84% Then we go around the room and we each ask a question. 00:48:09.950 --> 00:48:13.250 align:middle line:84% But I wonder whether it's a good time for a break 00:48:13.250 --> 00:48:14.382 align:middle line:90% before, because-- 00:48:14.382 --> 00:48:15.340 align:middle line:90% what do you think, Tom? 00:48:15.340 --> 00:48:16.392 align:middle line:90% What do you say? 00:48:16.392 --> 00:48:18.600 align:middle line:84% CAMERA OPERATOR: That's how you usually do it, right? 00:48:18.600 --> 00:48:20.780 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yeah, so let's take a break. 00:48:20.780 --> 00:48:23.960 align:middle line:84% Let's see, it's 1:00, so let's come back at 10 after 1:00. 00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:25.940 align:middle line:90% It's 12:58, 10 after 1:00. 00:48:25.940 --> 00:48:29.000 align:middle line:84% And then, OK, so get some coffee, stretch your legs, 00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.120 align:middle line:90% and come-- 00:48:31.120 --> 00:48:54.144 align:middle line:90%