WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.984 align:middle line:84% [SQUEAKING] [RUSTLING] [CLICKING] 00:00:07.984 --> 00:00:11.765 align:middle line:90% 00:00:11.765 --> 00:00:13.140 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So thank you very 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:18.270 align:middle line:84% much for sharing so generously with our esteemed, 00:00:18.270 --> 00:00:20.820 align:middle line:90% distinguished, dear guest. 00:00:20.820 --> 00:00:23.940 align:middle line:84% It was very-- I learnt a lot through the back and forth 00:00:23.940 --> 00:00:26.730 align:middle line:84% between you and Professor Casimir's questions 00:00:26.730 --> 00:00:27.450 align:middle line:90% and comments. 00:00:27.450 --> 00:00:30.870 align:middle line:84% I Thank you for sharing so much knowledge. 00:00:30.870 --> 00:00:32.455 align:middle line:90% It's just amazing. 00:00:32.455 --> 00:00:34.080 align:middle line:84% And I'm so glad-- thank you, Tom, thank 00:00:34.080 --> 00:00:37.140 align:middle line:84% you, MIT OpenCourseWare, for recording this. 00:00:37.140 --> 00:00:37.960 align:middle line:90% This is historical. 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:39.450 align:middle line:90% This is historical. 00:00:39.450 --> 00:00:41.700 align:middle line:84% And it does have the potential, I 00:00:41.700 --> 00:00:46.990 align:middle line:84% think, to reach out to folks on both ends of the spectrum, 00:00:46.990 --> 00:00:50.820 align:middle line:84% both the "Lakou" end and the "Lagrandyab" end, 00:00:50.820 --> 00:00:53.850 align:middle line:84% both the colonized and the colonizer, in many ways, 00:00:53.850 --> 00:00:55.870 align:middle line:84% in a way that can enrich all of us. 00:00:55.870 --> 00:00:57.370 align:middle line:90% So thank you for that. 00:00:57.370 --> 00:01:02.430 align:middle line:84% So now we're going to hear Ti Jan Bosal introduce 00:01:02.430 --> 00:01:05.940 align:middle line:84% this beautiful chapter, a powerful chapter on the power 00:01:05.940 --> 00:01:07.710 align:middle line:84% and beauty of the sovereign people. 00:01:07.710 --> 00:01:09.950 align:middle line:84% And then we go around the room and ask questions. 00:01:09.950 --> 00:01:10.950 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Thank you. 00:01:10.950 --> 00:01:11.910 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: And discuss. 00:01:11.910 --> 00:01:13.827 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: And I'm really happy to be here, 00:01:13.827 --> 00:01:18.800 align:middle line:84% because I'm in a real context where 00:01:18.800 --> 00:01:21.950 align:middle line:84% you feel at home, because everything you have said up 00:01:21.950 --> 00:01:25.780 align:middle line:84% till now, even from the very beginning, 00:01:25.780 --> 00:01:29.290 align:middle line:84% gives you the sense what is "decolonial reading," 00:01:29.290 --> 00:01:32.770 align:middle line:84% "decolonial study," because it's something that starts 00:01:32.770 --> 00:01:34.120 align:middle line:90% with your personal position. 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:35.650 align:middle line:90% You must know where you are. 00:01:35.650 --> 00:01:37.700 align:middle line:84% You must be aware of where you are. 00:01:37.700 --> 00:01:41.230 align:middle line:84% And from that, you see the world, you know what I mean? 00:01:41.230 --> 00:01:48.370 align:middle line:84% Because in fact, this is what is your power, the possibility 00:01:48.370 --> 00:01:51.550 align:middle line:84% of seeing the world from your position, not from the position 00:01:51.550 --> 00:01:52.630 align:middle line:90% they have given you. 00:01:52.630 --> 00:01:54.520 align:middle line:90% You find your position. 00:01:54.520 --> 00:01:55.630 align:middle line:90% You define your position. 00:01:55.630 --> 00:01:59.380 align:middle line:84% And from your position you are seeing the world. 00:01:59.380 --> 00:02:03.350 align:middle line:84% And something I have written and in my mind is fundamental, 00:02:03.350 --> 00:02:08.470 align:middle line:84% the use of social sciences, the raison d'être of social 00:02:08.470 --> 00:02:11.020 align:middle line:90% sciences is to regain-- 00:02:11.020 --> 00:02:13.390 align:middle line:84% to give to those who have been dispossessed, 00:02:13.390 --> 00:02:15.100 align:middle line:90% to re-empower them. 00:02:15.100 --> 00:02:16.750 align:middle line:84% If not, I don't know why they study-- 00:02:16.750 --> 00:02:20.290 align:middle line:84% I am not there to empower those who are empowered. 00:02:20.290 --> 00:02:22.210 align:middle line:90% I have been disempowered. 00:02:22.210 --> 00:02:30.580 align:middle line:84% And my aim is to study, to work so I can regain 00:02:30.580 --> 00:02:33.070 align:middle line:84% my position over myself, over my people, 00:02:33.070 --> 00:02:35.200 align:middle line:84% and for my people to move forward. 00:02:35.200 --> 00:02:38.500 align:middle line:84% Now, this implies understanding myself, 00:02:38.500 --> 00:02:41.110 align:middle line:84% understanding my people, and understanding the other. 00:02:41.110 --> 00:02:43.970 align:middle line:90% And then I move from there. 00:02:43.970 --> 00:02:49.930 align:middle line:84% So the beauty and power of the sovereign people 00:02:49.930 --> 00:02:56.860 align:middle line:84% is that we come from a set of individuals, 00:02:56.860 --> 00:03:00.880 align:middle line:84% because capitalism and European capitalism, modern time 00:03:00.880 --> 00:03:05.320 align:middle line:84% capitalism is based on the desegregation 00:03:05.320 --> 00:03:06.730 align:middle line:90% of the communities. 00:03:06.730 --> 00:03:08.320 align:middle line:90% You take the communities. 00:03:08.320 --> 00:03:12.380 align:middle line:84% You make of them naked individuals. 00:03:12.380 --> 00:03:14.630 align:middle line:84% And then you give them the possibility 00:03:14.630 --> 00:03:18.050 align:middle line:84% of rejoining within your own norms-- 00:03:18.050 --> 00:03:19.790 align:middle line:84% now called the "syndicate," called 00:03:19.790 --> 00:03:21.620 align:middle line:84% the trade union, whatever you want, 00:03:21.620 --> 00:03:26.520 align:middle line:84% but after you make of them naked individuals. 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:32.480 align:middle line:84% We are taken from Africa, in the case of Saint-Domingue, Haiti, 00:03:32.480 --> 00:03:35.270 align:middle line:90% at least 24 different nations. 00:03:35.270 --> 00:03:36.830 align:middle line:90% Now they mix them all. 00:03:36.830 --> 00:03:39.920 align:middle line:90% They mix us up in the country. 00:03:39.920 --> 00:03:43.220 align:middle line:84% And we are going to recreate ourselves. 00:03:43.220 --> 00:03:45.900 align:middle line:90% How do we do that? 00:03:45.900 --> 00:03:49.740 align:middle line:84% First of all, we create with nothing, 00:03:49.740 --> 00:03:53.040 align:middle line:84% eh, a group, a social group just to protect us, 00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:57.840 align:middle line:84% because when you reach there as an enslaved person, now 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:02.070 align:middle line:84% they are going to beat you, to-- well, to destroy you, no? 00:04:02.070 --> 00:04:06.570 align:middle line:84% When you finish working, the few times they give you to rest, 00:04:06.570 --> 00:04:08.640 align:middle line:90% you will find consolation. 00:04:08.640 --> 00:04:09.840 align:middle line:90% You will find affection. 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:10.740 align:middle line:90% You will find love. 00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:12.900 align:middle line:90% You will find reciprocity. 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:14.430 align:middle line:90% You will find solidarity. 00:04:14.430 --> 00:04:15.780 align:middle line:90% You give and take. 00:04:15.780 --> 00:04:18.209 align:middle line:90% You will find human relations. 00:04:18.209 --> 00:04:21.779 align:middle line:84% So you will create, you recreate a social group. 00:04:21.779 --> 00:04:25.110 align:middle line:84% I mean, this social group you create 00:04:25.110 --> 00:04:29.250 align:middle line:84% is going to have a set of principles, a set of norms, no? 00:04:29.250 --> 00:04:34.560 align:middle line:84% And these norms are going to give way to new individuals. 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:37.320 align:middle line:84% You're going to create a new individual according 00:04:37.320 --> 00:04:41.080 align:middle line:84% to your own norms, to your own principles. 00:04:41.080 --> 00:04:45.240 align:middle line:84% And these new individuals will be power 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:47.100 align:middle line:90% in front of the other power. 00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:49.290 align:middle line:84% So that gives you the possibility 00:04:49.290 --> 00:04:52.110 align:middle line:90% of discovering out of nothing. 00:04:52.110 --> 00:04:54.960 align:middle line:84% Now you're going to imagine another power. 00:04:54.960 --> 00:05:01.940 align:middle line:84% And it is so important that the one who brought you 00:05:01.940 --> 00:05:04.640 align:middle line:84% in the Caribbean or in the plantation system 00:05:04.640 --> 00:05:07.880 align:middle line:84% to exploit you is willing to spend 00:05:07.880 --> 00:05:11.390 align:middle line:84% all his efforts to destroy you because you are something. 00:05:11.390 --> 00:05:14.870 align:middle line:84% And you're going to be aware of that something. 00:05:14.870 --> 00:05:19.240 align:middle line:84% For instance, they will say Vodou or whatever we do 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:22.230 align:middle line:84% or be whatever it is is superstition. 00:05:22.230 --> 00:05:23.820 align:middle line:84% If it is superstition, it is useless. 00:05:23.820 --> 00:05:24.500 align:middle line:90% Let me use it. 00:05:24.500 --> 00:05:25.500 align:middle line:90% It's not doing anything. 00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:26.700 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:05:26.700 --> 00:05:29.610 align:middle line:84% If it has no solution, why do you make so much effort 00:05:29.610 --> 00:05:31.140 align:middle line:90% to destroy it? 00:05:31.140 --> 00:05:34.080 align:middle line:84% I mean-- so therefore you are acknowledging that, no? 00:05:34.080 --> 00:05:37.360 align:middle line:84% Another element that is important also-- 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:41.900 align:middle line:84% granted, you want me to do that, I don't do it, you beat me up. 00:05:41.900 --> 00:05:44.890 align:middle line:84% You can even kill me so I can do it. 00:05:44.890 --> 00:05:47.080 align:middle line:84% But I never see you killing a donkey 00:05:47.080 --> 00:05:50.440 align:middle line:84% because it doesn't want to drink water, 00:05:50.440 --> 00:05:53.320 align:middle line:84% because you know the donkey is an animal. 00:05:53.320 --> 00:05:55.300 align:middle line:90% I mean, so they know-- 00:05:55.300 --> 00:05:57.760 align:middle line:84% but me you're going to beat me until I'm dead. 00:05:57.760 --> 00:06:01.720 align:middle line:84% Therefore, you acknowledge that I'm equal to you. 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.090 align:middle line:84% If I was not equal to you, you would not 00:06:04.090 --> 00:06:05.110 align:middle line:90% beat me until I am dead. 00:06:05.110 --> 00:06:06.318 align:middle line:90% You would do like the donkey. 00:06:06.318 --> 00:06:07.970 align:middle line:90% I'd let you beat me [INAUDIBLE]. 00:06:07.970 --> 00:06:10.630 align:middle line:84% No, you beat me, because you know I have a will. 00:06:10.630 --> 00:06:13.660 align:middle line:90% And this will escapes to you-- 00:06:13.660 --> 00:06:14.500 align:middle line:90% escapes you. 00:06:14.500 --> 00:06:16.270 align:middle line:90% And this is my power. 00:06:16.270 --> 00:06:19.420 align:middle line:84% OK, with that power in front of you, might-- 00:06:19.420 --> 00:06:21.940 align:middle line:84% because you really have a might-- 00:06:21.940 --> 00:06:27.790 align:middle line:84% I am going now to create myself, a being, 00:06:27.790 --> 00:06:30.580 align:middle line:90% my sovereignty with nothing. 00:06:30.580 --> 00:06:32.320 align:middle line:84% I'm going to recreate a new society. 00:06:32.320 --> 00:06:33.680 align:middle line:90% That is the beauty of it. 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:36.550 align:middle line:84% And this is what we have to be aware of. 00:06:36.550 --> 00:06:39.910 align:middle line:84% Now, it is not that I feel strong. 00:06:39.910 --> 00:06:46.040 align:middle line:84% No, no, no, I'm going to create a whole set of institutions. 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:46.880 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:06:46.880 --> 00:06:53.225 align:middle line:84% A language, a religion, villages, 00:06:53.225 --> 00:06:58.460 align:middle line:84% a set of institutions that I create to take care of myself 00:06:58.460 --> 00:07:03.350 align:middle line:84% and to reproduce myself and also to have accountability 00:07:03.350 --> 00:07:05.967 align:middle line:90% for the members of the group. 00:07:05.967 --> 00:07:06.800 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:11.090 align:middle line:84% So I create another universe in front of your universe, no? 00:07:11.090 --> 00:07:16.743 align:middle line:84% And your universe, since you despise me, cannot see me. 00:07:16.743 --> 00:07:18.410 align:middle line:84% I mean, even when they see me, they say, 00:07:18.410 --> 00:07:20.437 align:middle line:84% "Oh, these are stupid things niggers are doing," 00:07:20.437 --> 00:07:21.270 align:middle line:90% you see what I mean? 00:07:21.270 --> 00:07:23.420 align:middle line:84% Even when they see, they cannot adjust. 00:07:23.420 --> 00:07:26.810 align:middle line:84% So therefore, myself, to survive, 00:07:26.810 --> 00:07:29.840 align:middle line:84% I first learn what you have in mind. 00:07:29.840 --> 00:07:32.270 align:middle line:90% And I, in group-- 00:07:32.270 --> 00:07:34.970 align:middle line:84% no, I'm going to imagine how to bypass 00:07:34.970 --> 00:07:38.090 align:middle line:84% what you have in mind to the small possibility. 00:07:38.090 --> 00:07:38.900 align:middle line:90% Sometimes I can't. 00:07:38.900 --> 00:07:39.710 align:middle line:90% Sometime I can. 00:07:39.710 --> 00:07:42.540 align:middle line:84% But I will never lose the opportunity of doing that. 00:07:42.540 --> 00:07:47.480 align:middle line:84% This is-- therefore, some people coming down here 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:50.120 align:middle line:84% or brought down here against their will 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.630 align:middle line:84% after much suffering, because you do not 00:07:53.630 --> 00:07:57.320 align:middle line:84% leave Africa as a tourist, no, you are beaten. 00:07:57.320 --> 00:08:01.290 align:middle line:84% And you have to walk sometime hundreds and hundreds of miles. 00:08:01.290 --> 00:08:03.540 align:middle line:84% They put you in circumstances you have never imagined. 00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:05.498 align:middle line:84% They put you on the boat, et cetera, et cetera. 00:08:05.498 --> 00:08:06.110 align:middle line:90% You come here. 00:08:06.110 --> 00:08:09.860 align:middle line:84% And when you come here, now they start humiliating you, 00:08:09.860 --> 00:08:13.370 align:middle line:84% doing things that are beyond imagination, no? 00:08:13.370 --> 00:08:14.150 align:middle line:90% They sell you. 00:08:14.150 --> 00:08:15.770 align:middle line:84% The stamp you, et cetera, et cetera. 00:08:15.770 --> 00:08:17.460 align:middle line:84% I will not describe all the things. 00:08:17.460 --> 00:08:25.220 align:middle line:84% But in that, I would say, infinite poverty 00:08:25.220 --> 00:08:29.240 align:middle line:84% and destruction, you're going to reborn. 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:32.330 align:middle line:84% This is the beauty of the sovereign people. 00:08:32.330 --> 00:08:34.370 align:middle line:90% Now, how do you do that? 00:08:34.370 --> 00:08:36.630 align:middle line:90% I say you create a community. 00:08:36.630 --> 00:08:41.159 align:middle line:84% But the community you created in the plantation itself-- 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:45.030 align:middle line:84% I mean, while you're working on the plantation, 00:08:45.030 --> 00:08:47.880 align:middle line:84% you're creating social groups, in spite 00:08:47.880 --> 00:08:50.100 align:middle line:84% of the intention of the person to call you Black. 00:08:50.100 --> 00:08:52.080 align:middle line:90% "Black" is a colonial world. 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:53.490 align:middle line:90% In Africa, you're not Black. 00:08:53.490 --> 00:08:54.570 align:middle line:90% You can be Ashanti. 00:08:54.570 --> 00:08:55.470 align:middle line:90% You can be Negro. 00:08:55.470 --> 00:08:56.400 align:middle line:90% You can be Igbo. 00:08:56.400 --> 00:08:58.980 align:middle line:84% You can be anything but Black, because everybody is Black. 00:08:58.980 --> 00:09:01.740 align:middle line:84% So Black does not distinguish one to another. 00:09:01.740 --> 00:09:07.110 align:middle line:84% I mean, so you come here, and you create a little group 00:09:07.110 --> 00:09:08.850 align:middle line:90% on the plantation. 00:09:08.850 --> 00:09:12.360 align:middle line:84% Now in that group, there are others who really cannot 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:14.190 align:middle line:90% survive in the plantation. 00:09:14.190 --> 00:09:15.180 align:middle line:90% They will run away. 00:09:15.180 --> 00:09:18.810 align:middle line:84% And you'll have a set of bandits and people 00:09:18.810 --> 00:09:23.460 align:middle line:84% stole, living out of stealing goods, coming in and out, 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:25.350 align:middle line:84% looking for weapons, et cetera, et cetera. 00:09:25.350 --> 00:09:29.160 align:middle line:84% They are set of generally male maroons, no? 00:09:29.160 --> 00:09:32.970 align:middle line:84% Those male maroons and you are in contact. 00:09:32.970 --> 00:09:36.000 align:middle line:84% And at some point in time, they will with their ladies 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:38.670 align:middle line:84% go and create the free village system. 00:09:38.670 --> 00:09:39.990 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:09:39.990 --> 00:09:43.410 align:middle line:84% Now, from the people on the plantation, 00:09:43.410 --> 00:09:46.410 align:middle line:84% the independent fighters or brigands 00:09:46.410 --> 00:09:49.350 align:middle line:84% or whatever they call them to the village system, 00:09:49.350 --> 00:09:53.790 align:middle line:84% you have a constant movement of ideas [INAUDIBLE].. 00:09:53.790 --> 00:09:58.280 align:middle line:84% And this is done through the language, through the language. 00:09:58.280 --> 00:10:01.300 align:middle line:90% So you have now a whole-- 00:10:01.300 --> 00:10:04.240 align:middle line:84% in the plantation system before independence, 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:10.240 align:middle line:84% you have a whole movement of concept, of habits, 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:14.110 align:middle line:84% of conducts that teach you the possibility of bypassing 00:10:14.110 --> 00:10:17.320 align:middle line:84% the system and defending yourself against the system. 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:20.950 align:middle line:84% This is possible, particularly in the larger Antilles 00:10:20.950 --> 00:10:25.510 align:middle line:84% or in Suriname or in the Guyanas, no? 00:10:25.510 --> 00:10:32.240 align:middle line:84% And this gives what I call the "counter-plantation system," 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:37.870 align:middle line:84% which is the basis for the nation. 00:10:37.870 --> 00:10:40.480 align:middle line:84% Not yet, the nation is being born, 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:43.510 align:middle line:84% but I mean the Haitians or the Jamaicans, 00:10:43.510 --> 00:10:44.440 align:middle line:90% et cetera, et cetera. 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:48.730 align:middle line:84% This is one line of the development. 00:10:48.730 --> 00:10:51.310 align:middle line:84% In the case for instance of the smaller island like Saint 00:10:51.310 --> 00:10:53.860 align:middle line:84% Vincent, Barbados, Martinique, they 00:10:53.860 --> 00:10:57.350 align:middle line:84% have to negotiate within the system. 00:10:57.350 --> 00:10:58.960 align:middle line:84% Take Barbados as the best example, 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:04.360 align:middle line:84% because they were the seat of the Royal Navy. 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:08.470 align:middle line:84% So you better behave yourself or they kill you, that's all. 00:11:08.470 --> 00:11:11.920 align:middle line:84% I mean, so you have to learn to negotiate within their system. 00:11:11.920 --> 00:11:17.050 align:middle line:84% But this is the same basic position. 00:11:17.050 --> 00:11:20.110 align:middle line:84% They are different, because the condition in which they 00:11:20.110 --> 00:11:21.700 align:middle line:84% are negotiating are not the condition 00:11:21.700 --> 00:11:25.310 align:middle line:84% in which, for instance, Surinamese is negotiating. 00:11:25.310 --> 00:11:27.100 align:middle line:84% And the Surinamese have the Amerindians 00:11:27.100 --> 00:11:31.900 align:middle line:84% who will show them how the Amazonian et cetera, et cetera. 00:11:31.900 --> 00:11:35.780 align:middle line:84% In any event, this is what we are doing. 00:11:35.780 --> 00:11:38.170 align:middle line:84% We prepare ourselves in the negotiation 00:11:38.170 --> 00:11:45.010 align:middle line:84% to create the group of people who can see another reality, 00:11:45.010 --> 00:11:49.540 align:middle line:84% create another universe, and a universe that the "powerful," 00:11:49.540 --> 00:11:52.990 align:middle line:90% so-called, tend to erase, no? 00:11:52.990 --> 00:11:55.900 align:middle line:84% And we confront those two universes. 00:11:55.900 --> 00:12:04.300 align:middle line:84% Now when the imperial colonial countries enter in conflicts, 00:12:04.300 --> 00:12:07.510 align:middle line:84% now they create a possibility for you to break in, 00:12:07.510 --> 00:12:08.380 align:middle line:90% you see what I mean? 00:12:08.380 --> 00:12:10.390 align:middle line:84% So there is no difference between the Haitian 00:12:10.390 --> 00:12:13.830 align:middle line:84% and the Jamaican except what I told you what happened outside. 00:12:13.830 --> 00:12:15.580 align:middle line:84% There is no difference between the Haitian 00:12:15.580 --> 00:12:18.610 align:middle line:84% or Jamaican and the Barbadian, except that one is 00:12:18.610 --> 00:12:19.960 align:middle line:90% in the small island, which is-- 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:22.600 align:middle line:84% Barbados is something like 300 times 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:25.360 align:middle line:84% smaller than the whole island there in Haiti, 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:28.090 align:middle line:84% because we have an island in front of Port-au-Prince, La 00:12:28.090 --> 00:12:34.000 align:middle line:84% Gonave, which is twice bigger than Barbados, an island only. 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:37.550 align:middle line:84% The country is something 70 times, if you put the D.R.-- 00:12:37.550 --> 00:12:40.450 align:middle line:84% So you can imagine the possibility of negotiation 00:12:40.450 --> 00:12:43.330 align:middle line:84% in this island and of the Barbadians 00:12:43.330 --> 00:12:44.980 align:middle line:90% are quite different, no? 00:12:44.980 --> 00:12:46.750 align:middle line:84% Not to speak of the condition in which 00:12:46.750 --> 00:12:50.410 align:middle line:90% Barbados was settled, no-- 00:12:50.410 --> 00:12:53.440 align:middle line:84% Barbados was settled by couples, by British 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:57.220 align:middle line:84% who came with their wives, so that one thing, 00:12:57.220 --> 00:13:00.280 align:middle line:84% they do not have a lot of people of color. 00:13:00.280 --> 00:13:01.612 align:middle line:90% They use-- no, no. 00:13:01.612 --> 00:13:04.240 align:middle line:84% They have, but they do not have a lot. 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:07.670 align:middle line:84% That's one condition that we are all, 00:13:07.670 --> 00:13:16.000 align:middle line:84% in fact, the basic set of position of self-respect, 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:22.490 align:middle line:84% sovereignty, group autonomy-- this is what is our base. 00:13:22.490 --> 00:13:28.180 align:middle line:84% So beauty-- the beauty is that in the worse condition 00:13:28.180 --> 00:13:31.990 align:middle line:84% of living, thing we could not possibly imagine that is 00:13:31.990 --> 00:13:32.590 align:middle line:90% happening-- 00:13:32.590 --> 00:13:34.630 align:middle line:84% I do not want to enter in the relation 00:13:34.630 --> 00:13:38.200 align:middle line:84% between the white males and their enslaved 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:39.950 align:middle line:84% and their kids and their daughters, 00:13:39.950 --> 00:13:45.010 align:middle line:84% what they have-- no, we can just imagine that they 00:13:45.010 --> 00:13:46.645 align:middle line:90% think they are all-powerful. 00:13:46.645 --> 00:13:47.770 align:middle line:90% They do whatever they want. 00:13:47.770 --> 00:13:50.530 align:middle line:84% They destroy themselves, but that's another problem. 00:13:50.530 --> 00:13:52.580 align:middle line:90% But forget about that. 00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:56.800 align:middle line:84% We simply create our world out of nothing. 00:13:56.800 --> 00:13:59.620 align:middle line:84% And it's the Caribbean world, no? 00:13:59.620 --> 00:14:06.130 align:middle line:84% When I say out of nothing, we do have resources 00:14:06.130 --> 00:14:07.550 align:middle line:90% we remember from Africa. 00:14:07.550 --> 00:14:11.980 align:middle line:84% But they are individuals who remember that. 00:14:11.980 --> 00:14:16.720 align:middle line:84% We have an advantage though over the First Nations in America. 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:19.810 align:middle line:84% The First Nations-- all the Jews, also-- 00:14:19.810 --> 00:14:23.320 align:middle line:84% they are people that were exploited. 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:28.030 align:middle line:84% But they were a nation that were exploited. 00:14:28.030 --> 00:14:32.620 align:middle line:84% They have been forced to witness the destruction 00:14:32.620 --> 00:14:34.170 align:middle line:90% of their nation. 00:14:34.170 --> 00:14:37.200 align:middle line:84% You see the Mayas, the Aztec, or the Incas-- 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.790 align:middle line:84% they could see the Spaniards coming. 00:14:38.790 --> 00:14:40.650 align:middle line:90% And they have lived that. 00:14:40.650 --> 00:14:42.930 align:middle line:84% In our case, no, for instance, assuming 00:14:42.930 --> 00:14:46.410 align:middle line:84% that they get into Yoruba country or Igbo country, 00:14:46.410 --> 00:14:49.770 align:middle line:84% they beat them, and they take you, and they bring you here. 00:14:49.770 --> 00:14:52.600 align:middle line:90% You would say, oh OK, I lost. 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:54.420 align:middle line:90% I had just bad luck. 00:14:54.420 --> 00:14:55.290 align:middle line:90% They got me. 00:14:55.290 --> 00:14:57.840 align:middle line:84% But the country, nobody can beat the Igbos. 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:01.500 align:middle line:84% Even if it is not true, but you will imagine that you have not 00:15:01.500 --> 00:15:04.110 align:middle line:84% witnessed your society being humiliated, 00:15:04.110 --> 00:15:07.840 align:middle line:90% your kings being a-- 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:09.570 align:middle line:84% yes, humiliated, et cetera, et cetera. 00:15:09.570 --> 00:15:11.010 align:middle line:90% So we have at least that. 00:15:11.010 --> 00:15:14.670 align:middle line:84% We start with local experience from the day 00:15:14.670 --> 00:15:17.400 align:middle line:90% we came here in America. 00:15:17.400 --> 00:15:20.170 align:middle line:84% And from that local events, we move forward 00:15:20.170 --> 00:15:25.920 align:middle line:84% so we can create a new society, a new world 00:15:25.920 --> 00:15:29.100 align:middle line:90% with our experience, not with-- 00:15:29.100 --> 00:15:34.590 align:middle line:84% we do not carry all the tradition of our society. 00:15:34.590 --> 00:15:39.530 align:middle line:84% And we do not carry the "deuil," the sorrow. 00:15:39.530 --> 00:15:42.680 align:middle line:84% Or for instance, there are some wonderful scene 00:15:42.680 --> 00:15:44.870 align:middle line:84% in the-- among the first nations. 00:15:44.870 --> 00:15:46.730 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE] going all over Bolivia, 00:15:46.730 --> 00:15:50.840 align:middle line:84% where they are playing the conquest. 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:53.157 align:middle line:84% I mean, the Amerindians are playing the conquest. 00:15:53.157 --> 00:15:53.990 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:15:53.990 --> 00:16:00.080 align:middle line:84% You can see all the sadness in the winning of the alien 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.840 align:middle line:84% over-- we don't have that possibility. 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:07.670 align:middle line:84% And in general, our musical production 00:16:07.670 --> 00:16:09.170 align:middle line:90% is quite different from theirs. 00:16:09.170 --> 00:16:13.340 align:middle line:84% So this is what I call the beauty 00:16:13.340 --> 00:16:20.630 align:middle line:84% of our nation, what we have witnessed, 00:16:20.630 --> 00:16:21.650 align:middle line:90% what we have created. 00:16:21.650 --> 00:16:25.310 align:middle line:84% The problem is that we have to make our people aware of that. 00:16:25.310 --> 00:16:28.210 align:middle line:84% And this is what the system and what 00:16:28.210 --> 00:16:34.730 align:middle line:84% Professor DeGraff was showing, wants you not to see, you see? 00:16:34.730 --> 00:16:36.980 align:middle line:84% For instance, the beauty of Kreyòl-- 00:16:36.980 --> 00:16:42.680 align:middle line:84% Kreyòl is switching the meaning of key function. 00:16:42.680 --> 00:16:47.060 align:middle line:84% One of my great friends and Professor Guillermo Bonfil 00:16:47.060 --> 00:16:51.740 align:middle line:84% from Mexico, he said, "Indian," "Negroes" are colonial concept. 00:16:51.740 --> 00:16:55.700 align:middle line:84% There were no Indians in America before Christopher Columbus 00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:57.500 align:middle line:90% made his mistakes. 00:16:57.500 --> 00:16:59.630 align:middle line:90% Negroes, that you call Negroes-- 00:16:59.630 --> 00:17:01.130 align:middle line:84% I mean, I don't know if I'm a Negro. 00:17:01.130 --> 00:17:03.890 align:middle line:84% I mean, that's meaningless that I am a Negro, 00:17:03.890 --> 00:17:05.210 align:middle line:90% et cetera, et cetera. 00:17:05.210 --> 00:17:08.750 align:middle line:84% Those are key concepts of colonialism. 00:17:08.750 --> 00:17:09.785 align:middle line:90% They create race. 00:17:09.785 --> 00:17:13.579 align:middle line:84% A set of languages in Africa has no word for race. 00:17:13.579 --> 00:17:16.579 align:middle line:84% And in Haiti, "race" means "family" 00:17:16.579 --> 00:17:21.740 align:middle line:84% according to Old French, as in "the race of DeGraff," 00:17:21.740 --> 00:17:23.150 align:middle line:90% "the race of Casimir." 00:17:23.150 --> 00:17:25.220 align:middle line:84% They say, "Watch out with the race of Rodriguez. 00:17:25.220 --> 00:17:27.290 align:middle line:84% They are really bad people, all of them. 00:17:27.290 --> 00:17:29.390 align:middle line:90% They are witches." 00:17:29.390 --> 00:17:34.870 align:middle line:84% But they mean the family, not the race what the West covers. 00:17:34.870 --> 00:17:36.380 align:middle line:90% So we came. 00:17:36.380 --> 00:17:38.300 align:middle line:90% And we create another concept. 00:17:38.300 --> 00:17:41.630 align:middle line:84% And I don't know if you know, but as everybody knows and I 00:17:41.630 --> 00:17:44.300 align:middle line:84% give the example so many times, "whites" 00:17:44.300 --> 00:17:47.810 align:middle line:84% do not mean what it means in French or in English. 00:17:47.810 --> 00:17:53.410 align:middle line:84% Whites-- for instance, I have a very good friend of mine from 00:17:53.410 --> 00:17:54.460 align:middle line:90% Jamaica I say-- 00:17:54.460 --> 00:17:56.200 align:middle line:84% when I do something in my company, 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:57.850 align:middle line:90% I say I trick the white man. 00:17:57.850 --> 00:18:00.980 align:middle line:84% But I don't mean white men, the man who is white. 00:18:00.980 --> 00:18:04.000 align:middle line:84% I mean, I trick the technology, the dominant one, 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:08.060 align:middle line:84% the one who want the algorithm to work that way. 00:18:08.060 --> 00:18:09.433 align:middle line:90% I make it work another way. 00:18:09.433 --> 00:18:11.350 align:middle line:84% I mean, this is why I call it "the white man." 00:18:11.350 --> 00:18:15.730 align:middle line:84% And in fact, in my proposition, "white" means in Haiti 00:18:15.730 --> 00:18:19.630 align:middle line:84% the responsible of the primitive accumulation of capital. 00:18:19.630 --> 00:18:21.850 align:middle line:84% We need to be the dominant capitalist fellow, who 00:18:21.850 --> 00:18:24.760 align:middle line:84% comes in, takes whatever he sees, that he is and he take it 00:18:24.760 --> 00:18:26.140 align:middle line:90% if he wants it, period. 00:18:26.140 --> 00:18:28.360 align:middle line:90% No, he has been-- that's why. 00:18:28.360 --> 00:18:31.210 align:middle line:84% So for instance, if he comes home they will say, 00:18:31.210 --> 00:18:32.662 align:middle line:84% "there is a Negro asking for you." 00:18:32.662 --> 00:18:34.120 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yeah, that's right. 00:18:34.120 --> 00:18:34.370 align:middle line:90% That's right. 00:18:34.370 --> 00:18:34.830 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Period. 00:18:34.830 --> 00:18:36.910 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So if Tom goes to Haiti, Tom becomes a Negro. 00:18:36.910 --> 00:18:37.300 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: A Negro. 00:18:37.300 --> 00:18:39.758 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Because "Negro" means human being in Haiti. 00:18:39.758 --> 00:18:43.270 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Period, and the reverse is true, too. 00:18:43.270 --> 00:18:45.910 align:middle line:84% My daughter is like you all, my son, also. 00:18:45.910 --> 00:18:49.300 align:middle line:84% And they are all "white" because they are strangers. 00:18:49.300 --> 00:18:50.740 align:middle line:90% They can't speak Kreyòl. 00:18:50.740 --> 00:18:53.350 align:middle line:90% They don't know the habits. 00:18:53.350 --> 00:18:54.310 align:middle line:90% They are too-- 00:18:54.310 --> 00:18:56.680 align:middle line:90% I mean, it's not discriminatory. 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:59.440 align:middle line:84% It's just simply they do not know what's going on. 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.560 align:middle line:84% They do not know the rules of the game. 00:19:02.560 --> 00:19:03.380 align:middle line:90% That's it. 00:19:03.380 --> 00:19:08.560 align:middle line:84% So you have changed the key concept of the dominant system. 00:19:08.560 --> 00:19:12.773 align:middle line:84% And you have create your world where "tout moun se moun," 00:19:12.773 --> 00:19:13.690 align:middle line:90% everybody is a person. 00:19:13.690 --> 00:19:16.420 align:middle line:90% You have create the word "moun." 00:19:16.420 --> 00:19:17.920 align:middle line:84% I mean, the word "moun" has nothing 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:20.830 align:middle line:84% to do with white, black, male, female. 00:19:20.830 --> 00:19:21.940 align:middle line:90% It just mean person. 00:19:21.940 --> 00:19:26.200 align:middle line:84% Every person is a person, and should be respected as such. 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.912 align:middle line:84% This is something you have done when you are in the "très 00:19:29.912 --> 00:19:34.210 align:middle line:90% fond," in the depth of misery. 00:19:34.210 --> 00:19:37.840 align:middle line:84% To get out and to create that group that 00:19:37.840 --> 00:19:41.290 align:middle line:84% can survive oppression, you had to erase that. 00:19:41.290 --> 00:19:43.810 align:middle line:84% This is why the Igbo disappeared, 00:19:43.810 --> 00:19:46.600 align:middle line:84% the Congo disappeared, the Hausa disappeared. 00:19:46.600 --> 00:19:48.430 align:middle line:90% You become a moun. 00:19:48.430 --> 00:19:51.880 align:middle line:84% And you have to be-- and as far as I know in Haiti, 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:55.390 align:middle line:84% the worst of all sin is to destroy life. 00:19:55.390 --> 00:19:57.310 align:middle line:84% You have to respect life, period. 00:19:57.310 --> 00:19:59.830 align:middle line:90% You're not cut tree for nothing. 00:19:59.830 --> 00:20:03.430 align:middle line:84% You don't kill an insect for nothing. 00:20:03.430 --> 00:20:05.710 align:middle line:90% No, no, no, no, that is a sin. 00:20:05.710 --> 00:20:07.270 align:middle line:90% This is what is a sin. 00:20:07.270 --> 00:20:12.100 align:middle line:84% So the beauty of the sovereign people 00:20:12.100 --> 00:20:17.020 align:middle line:84% is that it has been able to invent its sovereignty 00:20:17.020 --> 00:20:19.870 align:middle line:84% and invent itself as distinct from. 00:20:19.870 --> 00:20:21.850 align:middle line:84% And this is where also it has been 00:20:21.850 --> 00:20:27.040 align:middle line:84% able to show you, make you see what power means in fact. 00:20:27.040 --> 00:20:29.350 align:middle line:84% Power doesn't mean that you're stronger, 00:20:29.350 --> 00:20:30.880 align:middle line:90% you have more strength. 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:32.560 align:middle line:84% No, no, that is not really power. 00:20:32.560 --> 00:20:36.260 align:middle line:84% This is appearance of power because your strengths, 00:20:36.260 --> 00:20:38.950 align:middle line:84% you have it because I'm powerful. 00:20:38.950 --> 00:20:42.270 align:middle line:84% You see, I like to tell my friend-- 00:20:42.270 --> 00:20:44.020 align:middle line:84% well, in fact, that's an idea that is in-- 00:20:44.020 --> 00:20:46.810 align:middle line:90% Eric Williams developed, no? 00:20:46.810 --> 00:20:49.900 align:middle line:84% Let's see, the Haitians-- to beat the Haitians, 00:20:49.900 --> 00:20:52.510 align:middle line:90% Napoleon sent 40,000 persons. 00:20:52.510 --> 00:20:53.650 align:middle line:90% And they lost. 00:20:53.650 --> 00:20:56.620 align:middle line:84% So we are stronger 40,000 plus 1, 00:20:56.620 --> 00:20:59.530 align:middle line:84% at least [LAUGHS] because they lost. 00:20:59.530 --> 00:21:02.020 align:middle line:84% So if you want to know what power is, 00:21:02.020 --> 00:21:03.580 align:middle line:90% ask us, because we beat him. 00:21:03.580 --> 00:21:05.410 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:21:05.410 --> 00:21:07.300 align:middle line:84% You must understand what power is. 00:21:07.300 --> 00:21:12.430 align:middle line:84% Obviously, in Haiti, they are destroying the use of Kreyòl. 00:21:12.430 --> 00:21:15.370 align:middle line:84% They do not want Kreyòl, as you have seen, 00:21:15.370 --> 00:21:18.420 align:middle line:90% because Kreyòl is powerful. 00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:23.220 align:middle line:84% You must be aware of this power that you control, you manage. 00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:24.870 align:middle line:84% And you are the one who invented. 00:21:24.870 --> 00:21:28.860 align:middle line:84% When I say something in French, the French Academy will decide 00:21:28.860 --> 00:21:31.500 align:middle line:84% or in Spanish, the Royal Academy, 00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:34.470 align:middle line:84% the Académie Royale will decide if it is correct, 00:21:34.470 --> 00:21:37.080 align:middle line:84% if you can say it or if you cannot say it. 00:21:37.080 --> 00:21:39.900 align:middle line:84% If I'm talking Jamaican, that the shanty town 00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:42.060 align:middle line:84% that will decide if this can be said or not. 00:21:42.060 --> 00:21:44.130 align:middle line:84% It's not the government, not even the government. 00:21:44.130 --> 00:21:51.150 align:middle line:84% It is us, us in our most inner existence without authority. 00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:56.880 align:middle line:84% It is the agreement between us that we decide that what is, 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:02.280 align:middle line:84% for instance, shack up, shacking up, if this is acceptable 00:22:02.280 --> 00:22:02.790 align:middle line:90% or not. 00:22:02.790 --> 00:22:04.410 align:middle line:90% It is not an authority. 00:22:04.410 --> 00:22:07.020 align:middle line:84% It is the consensus between the few people. 00:22:07.020 --> 00:22:08.670 align:middle line:90% This is what sovereignty is. 00:22:08.670 --> 00:22:11.380 align:middle line:90% So I will stop there. 00:22:11.380 --> 00:22:12.107 align:middle line:90% [CLAPPING] 00:22:12.107 --> 00:22:12.690 align:middle line:90% Oh boy, merci. 00:22:12.690 --> 00:22:15.990 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:22:15.990 --> 00:22:18.540 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: What you said about white reminds 00:22:18.540 --> 00:22:20.070 align:middle line:90% me of James Baldwin. 00:22:20.070 --> 00:22:21.010 align:middle line:90% He has a statement-- 00:22:21.010 --> 00:22:22.420 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Oh yeah, exactly. 00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:24.870 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: --that "white" is a metaphor for power. 00:22:24.870 --> 00:22:26.820 align:middle line:84% There's no such thing as whiteness. 00:22:26.820 --> 00:22:28.233 align:middle line:90% "White" is Chase Manhattan Bank. 00:22:28.233 --> 00:22:29.400 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Yeah, exactly. 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:31.260 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yeah, yeah, so thank you 00:22:31.260 --> 00:22:34.980 align:middle line:84% for this amazing summary of your entire approach 00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:37.420 align:middle line:90% really to Haitian history. 00:22:37.420 --> 00:22:39.840 align:middle line:90% So all right, so-- 00:22:39.840 --> 00:22:42.810 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It's a lot like the white thing-- 00:22:42.810 --> 00:22:46.770 align:middle line:90% for me, I hear it as-- 00:22:46.770 --> 00:22:51.690 align:middle line:84% it's a political position sort of of your relationality 00:22:51.690 --> 00:22:57.630 align:middle line:84% to the world, to things, to land, to food, to people, 00:22:57.630 --> 00:22:59.427 align:middle line:84% rather than the color of your skin-- 00:22:59.427 --> 00:23:00.510 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Yes, indeed. 00:23:00.510 --> 00:23:04.708 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: --your mental state of how you see the world. 00:23:04.708 --> 00:23:06.750 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK, so you can go around the room 00:23:06.750 --> 00:23:07.830 align:middle line:90% and ask questions. 00:23:07.830 --> 00:23:10.440 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE],, actually Gaby had her hand up very quickly. 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:11.025 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:23:11.025 --> 00:23:12.150 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] I think I can-- 00:23:12.150 --> 00:23:13.703 align:middle line:90% Merelin, you-- OK, all right. 00:23:13.703 --> 00:23:15.120 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: What was interesting that 00:23:15.120 --> 00:23:18.750 align:middle line:84% stood out to me in the reading was cultural homogenization 00:23:18.750 --> 00:23:19.410 align:middle line:90% and how-- 00:23:19.410 --> 00:23:20.160 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Come again. 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:21.690 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Cultural homogenization-- 00:23:21.690 --> 00:23:23.190 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Cultural imagination? 00:23:23.190 --> 00:23:25.620 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Homogenization, homogenization, 00:23:25.620 --> 00:23:28.020 align:middle line:90% cultural homogenization. 00:23:28.020 --> 00:23:31.650 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: --of how customs, habits, and aspirations were 00:23:31.650 --> 00:23:35.820 align:middle line:84% not pursued by the racist and Eurocentric public authorities 00:23:35.820 --> 00:23:40.410 align:middle line:84% but rather productions carried out by the sufferers, 00:23:40.410 --> 00:23:41.970 align:middle line:90% by the sufferers. 00:23:41.970 --> 00:23:45.150 align:middle line:84% And I thought that it was super interesting to think 00:23:45.150 --> 00:23:47.820 align:middle line:84% of it that way, because I'd personally always thought 00:23:47.820 --> 00:23:50.190 align:middle line:90% of like, oh, they classify us-- 00:23:50.190 --> 00:23:53.580 align:middle line:84% like, we're classified as Black, because there's 00:23:53.580 --> 00:23:58.020 align:middle line:84% a racist system that sees us all as like just one person 00:23:58.020 --> 00:23:59.760 align:middle line:84% and not like different ambitions. 00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:03.180 align:middle line:84% But I never thought of it as like a positive light 00:24:03.180 --> 00:24:04.500 align:middle line:90% like how you spun it. 00:24:04.500 --> 00:24:09.450 align:middle line:84% How it wasn't-- it was an aspect of our survival. 00:24:09.450 --> 00:24:14.880 align:middle line:84% We had to unify under this one form of culture. 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.130 align:middle line:84% And I actually thought that was interesting. 00:24:17.130 --> 00:24:20.370 align:middle line:84% And I was wondering, how did you get 00:24:20.370 --> 00:24:25.290 align:middle line:84% to that point of realizing that we formed this one 00:24:25.290 --> 00:24:29.400 align:middle line:90% homogenized culture not out of-- 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:32.610 align:middle line:84% just simply out of spite, in some cases, 00:24:32.610 --> 00:24:34.980 align:middle line:84% out of survival and out of spite. 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:36.480 align:middle line:90% How did you get to this point? 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:37.140 align:middle line:90% That's what I-- 00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:38.432 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: I see your point. 00:24:38.432 --> 00:24:42.330 align:middle line:84% To be-- I think now you make me see 00:24:42.330 --> 00:24:46.920 align:middle line:84% that, I think I should go back to my friend I just mentioned, 00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:48.090 align:middle line:90% Guillermo Bonfil. 00:24:48.090 --> 00:24:53.310 align:middle line:90% Guillermo is an anthropologist. 00:24:53.310 --> 00:24:58.100 align:middle line:84% He said, "Indian is an invention of the Spaniards." 00:24:58.100 --> 00:25:00.960 align:middle line:90% When you take an Inuit-- 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:02.520 align:middle line:84% you know Inuit, no, from Eskimo-- 00:25:02.520 --> 00:25:08.160 align:middle line:84% and you take a Tupi, or Mapuche, or Maya, or an Inca, 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:09.700 align:middle line:84% and you call all of them "Indian." 00:25:09.700 --> 00:25:10.200 align:middle line:90% "Indian"? 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:11.230 align:middle line:90% What do you mean? 00:25:11.230 --> 00:25:13.560 align:middle line:84% Why do you want them to be Indians? 00:25:13.560 --> 00:25:18.420 align:middle line:84% I mean, what does somebody who live his life in snow 00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:25.020 align:middle line:84% has to do with Tupi or Seminole or whatever it is? 00:25:25.020 --> 00:25:27.000 align:middle line:90% Because you want them to work. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.150 align:middle line:84% And you homogenize them in your imagination 00:25:30.150 --> 00:25:32.670 align:middle line:84% to make to work and to exploit them the way you 00:25:32.670 --> 00:25:34.950 align:middle line:90% want to invent that lie, OK? 00:25:34.950 --> 00:25:37.260 align:middle line:90% So this is one thing he put. 00:25:37.260 --> 00:25:40.600 align:middle line:84% And I start saying that therefore 00:25:40.600 --> 00:25:42.250 align:middle line:90% is a colonial concept. 00:25:42.250 --> 00:25:44.440 align:middle line:90% "White" is a colonial concept. 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:48.700 align:middle line:84% How does the Haitian call himself? 00:25:48.700 --> 00:25:52.360 align:middle line:84% And I found in that book of de Vastey, our first Haitian 00:25:52.360 --> 00:25:57.400 align:middle line:84% historian, he called the book The Colonial System Unveiled. 00:25:57.400 --> 00:25:58.600 align:middle line:90% It is in English. 00:25:58.600 --> 00:26:01.630 align:middle line:90% It's 90 pages the book has. 00:26:01.630 --> 00:26:04.870 align:middle line:84% And I realize in these 90 pages, de Vastey 00:26:04.870 --> 00:26:08.950 align:middle line:84% used 100 times the word "malere yo" so "malere." 00:26:08.950 --> 00:26:11.440 align:middle line:90% And we call ourselves "malere." 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:14.500 align:middle line:84% And "malere" can be a rich man or poor man. 00:26:14.500 --> 00:26:16.820 align:middle line:90% It means you're fragile. 00:26:16.820 --> 00:26:18.700 align:middle line:90% You are alone. 00:26:18.700 --> 00:26:20.950 align:middle line:90% You are vulnerable. 00:26:20.950 --> 00:26:23.350 align:middle line:84% So even if you reach that way, "malere" now, 00:26:23.350 --> 00:26:27.500 align:middle line:84% because you can come, fell down, and break your leg. 00:26:27.500 --> 00:26:29.710 align:middle line:84% Not only that, the importance of the "malere" 00:26:29.710 --> 00:26:34.060 align:middle line:84% is that I was in Africa going to a picnic with my girlfriend. 00:26:34.060 --> 00:26:36.670 align:middle line:84% And all of a sudden came from bandits for no reason 00:26:36.670 --> 00:26:37.300 align:middle line:90% to pick me up. 00:26:37.300 --> 00:26:41.650 align:middle line:84% And here I am, my girlfriend in Saint Vincent as a slave, 00:26:41.650 --> 00:26:44.350 align:middle line:90% me in Cuba as another slave. 00:26:44.350 --> 00:26:51.880 align:middle line:84% We have done nothing to deserve that "sort", that destiny, no? 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:53.950 align:middle line:90% We are the "malere" no? 00:26:53.950 --> 00:26:58.210 align:middle line:84% And up to now today, the Haitian defined himself as "malere." 00:26:58.210 --> 00:27:02.890 align:middle line:84% And this is why my great friend and translator, Laurent DuBois, 00:27:02.890 --> 00:27:06.070 align:middle line:84% takes from Bob Marley the word "sufferer." 00:27:06.070 --> 00:27:07.210 align:middle line:90% We are sufferers. 00:27:07.210 --> 00:27:10.330 align:middle line:84% It is not that we are a proletarian who came from 00:27:10.330 --> 00:27:15.250 align:middle line:84% and we could move through social mobility 00:27:15.250 --> 00:27:16.840 align:middle line:90% outside of the proletariat. 00:27:16.840 --> 00:27:19.900 align:middle line:84% We do not have a common history with the bourgeoisie. 00:27:19.900 --> 00:27:22.570 align:middle line:84% The bourgeois and the proletariat in Europe 00:27:22.570 --> 00:27:24.910 align:middle line:84% come from the "bourg," from the city. 00:27:24.910 --> 00:27:27.910 align:middle line:84% And they fought together, for instance, 00:27:27.910 --> 00:27:29.770 align:middle line:84% against the nobility and the clergy. 00:27:29.770 --> 00:27:31.690 align:middle line:84% And after the French Revolution, they 00:27:31.690 --> 00:27:34.010 align:middle line:84% split when capitalism started moving. 00:27:34.010 --> 00:27:35.350 align:middle line:90% But they have the same history. 00:27:35.350 --> 00:27:36.520 align:middle line:90% They have the same language. 00:27:36.520 --> 00:27:37.687 align:middle line:90% They have the same religion. 00:27:37.687 --> 00:27:41.840 align:middle line:84% They have a whole hundreds of-- no, that's not my case. 00:27:41.840 --> 00:27:42.940 align:middle line:90% I just-- Boop! 00:27:42.940 --> 00:27:45.028 align:middle line:84% They put me together in front of that "planteur" 00:27:45.028 --> 00:27:45.820 align:middle line:90% [plantation owner]. 00:27:45.820 --> 00:27:47.860 align:middle line:84% And I'm a "malere" because I've done nothing 00:27:47.860 --> 00:27:52.700 align:middle line:84% to deserve that suffering thing that happened. 00:27:52.700 --> 00:27:54.520 align:middle line:84% So when I find the word "sufferer," 00:27:54.520 --> 00:27:55.940 align:middle line:90% I say, oh boy, that's it. 00:27:55.940 --> 00:28:00.340 align:middle line:84% And this is the Kreyòl who gave it to me, "malere." 00:28:00.340 --> 00:28:04.600 align:middle line:84% A Haitian do not say I'm poor or I'm-- no, I'm "malere." 00:28:04.600 --> 00:28:06.520 align:middle line:84% And you can call anybody "malere." 00:28:06.520 --> 00:28:08.440 align:middle line:90% "Gade figi malereèz sa a, non"-- 00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:10.765 align:middle line:90% look at that poor lady. 00:28:10.765 --> 00:28:11.890 align:middle line:90% You know what I mean? 00:28:11.890 --> 00:28:12.570 align:middle line:90% Full stop. 00:28:12.570 --> 00:28:14.080 align:middle line:90% But that has nothing to do. 00:28:14.080 --> 00:28:18.280 align:middle line:84% OK, that means also that if I get out of the "malheur"-- 00:28:18.280 --> 00:28:22.630 align:middle line:84% of that misery, which is not something that came from 00:28:22.630 --> 00:28:25.300 align:middle line:84% my will or from my effort, it's an accident-- 00:28:25.300 --> 00:28:26.680 align:middle line:90% an accident put me in it. 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:29.030 align:middle line:84% An accident will take me out of it. 00:28:29.030 --> 00:28:31.780 align:middle line:84% My mother and my father could work their life. 00:28:31.780 --> 00:28:34.390 align:middle line:84% They will not make of me a professor. 00:28:34.390 --> 00:28:37.360 align:middle line:84% Is one day an accident, a friend of mine was minister-- 00:28:37.360 --> 00:28:39.190 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] minister of what? 00:28:39.190 --> 00:28:40.360 align:middle line:90% They found a scholarship. 00:28:40.360 --> 00:28:42.550 align:middle line:90% And I get out of it. 00:28:42.550 --> 00:28:44.110 align:middle line:84% Obviously I'm not going to lose-- 00:28:44.110 --> 00:28:47.470 align:middle line:84% But the fact of the matter is, you don't get out of it. 00:28:47.470 --> 00:28:50.440 align:middle line:84% You don't get into it because you're poor. 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:54.040 align:middle line:84% You don't get out of it because you work. 00:28:54.040 --> 00:28:58.390 align:middle line:84% Therefore, you should respect all other "malere." 00:28:58.390 --> 00:29:02.530 align:middle line:84% So the respect is basic all over. 00:29:02.530 --> 00:29:07.720 align:middle line:84% In Jamaica when I was there, they greet you, "respect." 00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:10.840 align:middle line:90% That's the greeting, "respect." 00:29:10.840 --> 00:29:13.900 align:middle line:84% That's the greeting, because I may be very rich, 00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:18.250 align:middle line:84% I may be very poor, but I earned the same respect. 00:29:18.250 --> 00:29:20.500 align:middle line:84% So this is how I would say, I think-- 00:29:20.500 --> 00:29:26.980 align:middle line:84% I get to the word "malere," "sufferer," because it's just 00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:27.950 align:middle line:90% in our language. 00:29:27.950 --> 00:29:32.200 align:middle line:84% So to my mind for social scientists, 00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:35.950 align:middle line:84% you should be aware and know and study your language. 00:29:35.950 --> 00:29:39.700 align:middle line:84% If you have a hypothesis, you cannot put it in your own local 00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:42.520 align:middle line:84% language, those of us who have two languages, 00:29:42.520 --> 00:29:43.600 align:middle line:90% you see what I mean? 00:29:43.600 --> 00:29:45.850 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] He's not working. 00:29:45.850 --> 00:29:49.540 align:middle line:84% It has to be translatable to our language, 00:29:49.540 --> 00:29:51.130 align:middle line:90% because we're working in-- 00:29:51.130 --> 00:29:53.830 align:middle line:84% if we work directly in our language, 00:29:53.830 --> 00:29:56.392 align:middle line:90% obviously that come out like-- 00:29:56.392 --> 00:29:58.100 align:middle line:84% I don't know if I answered your question. 00:29:58.100 --> 00:29:59.710 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: No, you're good, thank you. 00:29:59.710 --> 00:30:03.710 align:middle line:90% 00:30:03.710 --> 00:30:06.080 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So are you going to speak to-- piggyback 00:30:06.080 --> 00:30:06.530 align:middle line:90% on the [INAUDIBLE]? 00:30:06.530 --> 00:30:06.830 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:30:06.830 --> 00:30:07.780 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Well, I would just-- yeah, something if it's not-- 00:30:07.780 --> 00:30:08.822 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Continue... 00:30:08.822 --> 00:30:09.545 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: Yeah. 00:30:09.545 --> 00:30:14.032 align:middle line:84% No, just the concept of being a "malla-gree." 00:30:14.032 --> 00:30:14.990 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: "Malere." 00:30:14.990 --> 00:30:16.954 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: "Malla-- malere"-- it was-- 00:30:16.954 --> 00:30:18.920 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: "Malere." 00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:22.460 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: "Malere," yeah. 00:30:22.460 --> 00:30:27.590 align:middle line:84% It brings me to think about the wider idea of even 00:30:27.590 --> 00:30:35.130 align:middle line:84% like the rational movement of thinking that we are powerful, 00:30:35.130 --> 00:30:37.010 align:middle line:84% which is the concept of capitalism, 00:30:37.010 --> 00:30:38.450 align:middle line:90% that we are so powerful. 00:30:38.450 --> 00:30:40.010 align:middle line:90% You work hard. 00:30:40.010 --> 00:30:40.825 align:middle line:90% You get somewhere. 00:30:40.825 --> 00:30:41.575 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Yes. 00:30:41.575 --> 00:30:44.000 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: But most people who work really, really hard 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:45.020 align:middle line:90% are still-- 00:30:45.020 --> 00:30:45.290 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: "Malere"? 00:30:45.290 --> 00:30:45.790 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:30:45.790 --> 00:30:48.950 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Yeah, so but it kind of for me 00:30:48.950 --> 00:30:53.420 align:middle line:84% brings a question that I like to maybe hear your thoughts on 00:30:53.420 --> 00:30:55.770 align:middle line:90% is the idea of poverty. 00:30:55.770 --> 00:30:56.900 align:middle line:90% What is poverty? 00:30:56.900 --> 00:31:03.500 align:middle line:84% If poverty is still a definition based on acquiring property, 00:31:03.500 --> 00:31:06.080 align:middle line:84% it's even like the relationship to-- 00:31:06.080 --> 00:31:08.060 align:middle line:90% also relation to land. 00:31:08.060 --> 00:31:10.910 align:middle line:84% If-- You're rich if you own land, 00:31:10.910 --> 00:31:13.190 align:middle line:84% rather than if you have relationship 00:31:13.190 --> 00:31:17.260 align:middle line:84% to land, and also the idea that we come 00:31:17.260 --> 00:31:23.110 align:middle line:84% in and out of circumstances often by influences 00:31:23.110 --> 00:31:25.420 align:middle line:84% that are outside of our own doing. 00:31:25.420 --> 00:31:27.850 align:middle line:84% Like, I was going on a picnic with my girlfriend. 00:31:27.850 --> 00:31:31.870 align:middle line:84% And suddenly I am an enslaved person in Cuba. 00:31:31.870 --> 00:31:39.110 align:middle line:84% This was not my own doing, which is specifically 00:31:39.110 --> 00:31:42.723 align:middle line:84% antithesis of the whole capitalist approach of-- 00:31:42.723 --> 00:31:43.640 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Exactly. 00:31:43.640 --> 00:31:45.720 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: --everything is your own doing, 00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:50.030 align:middle line:84% which doesn't humble itself to other-- 00:31:50.030 --> 00:31:54.920 align:middle line:84% I'm just bringing it up to say, how do we 00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:57.530 align:middle line:84% provide a different paradigm or perspective 00:31:57.530 --> 00:32:00.470 align:middle line:84% to look at what is poverty and what 00:32:00.470 --> 00:32:03.590 align:middle line:84% is the human condition, really, in terms 00:32:03.590 --> 00:32:07.490 align:middle line:84% of the arrogance of capitalism, which continues 00:32:07.490 --> 00:32:09.470 align:middle line:90% to destroy our countries today. 00:32:09.470 --> 00:32:14.112 align:middle line:84% Like it is-- like Haiti today is destroyed by neoliberal-- 00:32:14.112 --> 00:32:16.320 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Being the poorest country in the world, 00:32:16.320 --> 00:32:20.720 align:middle line:84% I think this is where I find the importance 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:23.360 align:middle line:84% of the decolonial studies, because you should 00:32:23.360 --> 00:32:27.240 align:middle line:90% see capitalism from your angle. 00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:29.190 align:middle line:84% With all due respect for the capitalists, 00:32:29.190 --> 00:32:30.843 align:middle line:90% they are a set of liars. 00:32:30.843 --> 00:32:32.010 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: Why'd you say that? 00:32:32.010 --> 00:32:33.677 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: I'm going to tell you why. 00:32:33.677 --> 00:32:38.100 align:middle line:84% They declared private property is sacred. 00:32:38.100 --> 00:32:39.780 align:middle line:90% They came here in America. 00:32:39.780 --> 00:32:43.140 align:middle line:84% They took everything that they can see. 00:32:43.140 --> 00:32:44.580 align:middle line:90% They took it, literally. 00:32:44.580 --> 00:32:47.970 align:middle line:84% Now in Haiti, they took Saint-Domingue. 00:32:47.970 --> 00:32:50.970 align:middle line:84% And the King of Saint-Domingue, of Spain, 00:32:50.970 --> 00:32:55.410 align:middle line:84% will give a third of Saint-Domingue to the French. 00:32:55.410 --> 00:32:58.410 align:middle line:84% And they declare to me private property is sacred. 00:32:58.410 --> 00:33:01.320 align:middle line:84% Why is it-- who gave them Saint-Domingue? 00:33:01.320 --> 00:33:03.517 align:middle line:84% How could they take it for themselves, 00:33:03.517 --> 00:33:04.350 align:middle line:90% you see what I mean? 00:33:04.350 --> 00:33:13.320 align:middle line:84% Use the Seminole and this thing presented by Peck, no? 00:33:13.320 --> 00:33:16.680 align:middle line:84% You come there, you take my land, and you take that man 00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:17.850 align:middle line:90% and you tell him he's yours? 00:33:17.850 --> 00:33:19.020 align:middle line:90% How do you manage? 00:33:19.020 --> 00:33:21.150 align:middle line:84% I don't know if you see that the documentary 00:33:21.150 --> 00:33:22.428 align:middle line:90% of Raoul Peck on the-- 00:33:22.428 --> 00:33:24.720 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: It's called Exterminate all the Brutes. 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:27.450 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Exterminate all the Brutes. 00:33:27.450 --> 00:33:28.440 align:middle line:90% The brutes come. 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:30.145 align:middle line:90% They take the country. 00:33:30.145 --> 00:33:31.270 align:middle line:90% They take over the country. 00:33:31.270 --> 00:33:32.100 align:middle line:90% They take all the wealth. 00:33:32.100 --> 00:33:33.870 align:middle line:84% When they finish with the wealth in the Caribbean, 00:33:33.870 --> 00:33:35.370 align:middle line:84% they go in Mexico, they go in Peru. 00:33:35.370 --> 00:33:37.470 align:middle line:84% They take everything they had, no? 00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:42.150 align:middle line:84% And they start their capitalism, I mean, they start developing. 00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:45.450 align:middle line:84% And they're telling me private property is sacred, 00:33:45.450 --> 00:33:48.190 align:middle line:90% that we have to respect that. 00:33:48.190 --> 00:33:48.820 align:middle line:90% How come? 00:33:48.820 --> 00:33:52.960 align:middle line:84% If you start lying, you seize what is not yours. 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.450 align:middle line:84% No, but you declare that God gave me half of-- 00:33:55.450 --> 00:33:58.130 align:middle line:90% whose God, yours or mine? 00:33:58.130 --> 00:34:00.260 align:middle line:84% What do we have to see with that? 00:34:00.260 --> 00:34:04.040 align:middle line:84% So the question of poverty, you impoverish me, 00:34:04.040 --> 00:34:07.370 align:middle line:84% because you define wealth the way you want. 00:34:07.370 --> 00:34:08.570 align:middle line:90% You take it. 00:34:08.570 --> 00:34:11.389 align:middle line:84% And you say I have to respect it. 00:34:11.389 --> 00:34:14.150 align:middle line:84% And you have a set of institutions-- school, 00:34:14.150 --> 00:34:16.190 align:middle line:84% et cetera, et cetera-- to prove to me 00:34:16.190 --> 00:34:19.850 align:middle line:84% that I deserve to be poor, for instance, I am Black, 00:34:19.850 --> 00:34:26.550 align:middle line:84% I'm the son of Ham, and all sort of really, lies. 00:34:26.550 --> 00:34:31.800 align:middle line:84% Not only that, this question of Ham-- there is a verse. 00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:34.290 align:middle line:84% I don't have it in mind, but that is good. 00:34:34.290 --> 00:34:38.639 align:middle line:84% Well, in the Exodus, it's said if you take a person, 00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:42.630 align:middle line:84% you sell the person, you deserve a death. 00:34:42.630 --> 00:34:44.130 align:middle line:84% But on the other hand, they're going 00:34:44.130 --> 00:34:46.350 align:middle line:90% to say the son of Ham's will-- 00:34:46.350 --> 00:34:48.120 align:middle line:90% So they are a set of liars. 00:34:48.120 --> 00:34:50.040 align:middle line:84% And I do not have to believe that. 00:34:50.040 --> 00:34:52.409 align:middle line:84% And I do not have to respect that. 00:34:52.409 --> 00:34:55.840 align:middle line:84% And studies made will show that-- 00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:00.990 align:middle line:84% I mean, I'm talking about Madiou, another historian who 00:35:00.990 --> 00:35:04.470 align:middle line:84% was a member of the oligarchy for the whole 19th century. 00:35:04.470 --> 00:35:08.430 align:middle line:84% He said the system is corrupt, because corruption 00:35:08.430 --> 00:35:11.530 align:middle line:90% made the colonial system. 00:35:11.530 --> 00:35:17.730 align:middle line:84% So you cannot expect today the authorities of Haiti not to be 00:35:17.730 --> 00:35:18.900 align:middle line:90% corrupt. 00:35:18.900 --> 00:35:22.650 align:middle line:84% Same thing in the US, the system is based on corruption. 00:35:22.650 --> 00:35:24.900 align:middle line:84% How could you take the land of the Indians? 00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:28.290 align:middle line:84% You go and kill Indians, and now you make them poor. 00:35:28.290 --> 00:35:29.130 align:middle line:90% You create them. 00:35:29.130 --> 00:35:30.750 align:middle line:90% You create their poverty. 00:35:30.750 --> 00:35:32.310 align:middle line:84% Not only you create the poverty, you 00:35:32.310 --> 00:35:36.780 align:middle line:84% start ruling them with English when they were being ruled. 00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:38.940 align:middle line:84% They are-- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:41.160 align:middle line:90% So I think poverty and wealth-- 00:35:41.160 --> 00:35:45.180 align:middle line:84% and this is why also we must be aware of what we call wealth. 00:35:45.180 --> 00:35:49.380 align:middle line:84% Wealth is what allows us to survive, to be, to exist. 00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:51.510 align:middle line:84% This is where imagination comes, invention comes, 00:35:51.510 --> 00:35:58.000 align:middle line:84% all non-material knowledge will come. 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:03.630 align:middle line:84% I'm not belittling technology, because you have done something 00:36:03.630 --> 00:36:04.920 align:middle line:90% with the ways you have taken. 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:06.720 align:middle line:90% And I want to-- 00:36:06.720 --> 00:36:08.220 align:middle line:90% I respect that, no? 00:36:08.220 --> 00:36:09.780 align:middle line:90% But this is your interest. 00:36:09.780 --> 00:36:13.440 align:middle line:84% Now my job is with my imagination 00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:20.790 align:middle line:84% to try to use your technology to foster, to empower my people. 00:36:20.790 --> 00:36:23.520 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:36:23.520 --> 00:36:26.100 align:middle line:84% I mean, this is how more or less I see. 00:36:26.100 --> 00:36:29.250 align:middle line:84% Haiti is the poorest country in the world, 00:36:29.250 --> 00:36:34.920 align:middle line:84% according to the establishment's views. 00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:38.760 align:middle line:84% But as I told you, Lloyd Best, this famous economist 00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:42.810 align:middle line:84% from Trinidad, said Haiti is the richest country in America 00:36:42.810 --> 00:36:44.220 align:middle line:90% according to Lloyd Best. 00:36:44.220 --> 00:36:48.420 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] And he wrote a long article on that-- 00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:49.740 align:middle line:90% I could look for it-- 00:36:49.740 --> 00:36:52.945 align:middle line:84% but to show you that you have a voice 00:36:52.945 --> 00:36:58.770 align:middle line:84% It's not that we like poverty, we like-- 00:36:58.770 --> 00:37:00.220 align:middle line:90% no, no, that's not the point. 00:37:00.220 --> 00:37:02.850 align:middle line:84% The point is that you respect yourself. 00:37:02.850 --> 00:37:04.020 align:middle line:90% You like yourself. 00:37:04.020 --> 00:37:05.250 align:middle line:90% You protect yourself. 00:37:05.250 --> 00:37:08.535 align:middle line:84% And these things are quite clear also on that. 00:37:08.535 --> 00:37:09.460 align:middle line:90% You know what I mean? 00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:11.970 align:middle line:84% This is the-- and you must be aware of that. 00:37:11.970 --> 00:37:13.080 align:middle line:90% This is a problem. 00:37:13.080 --> 00:37:15.690 align:middle line:84% Don't let people divert your attention 00:37:15.690 --> 00:37:18.120 align:middle line:90% towards those material things. 00:37:18.120 --> 00:37:18.997 align:middle line:90% It is important. 00:37:18.997 --> 00:37:20.580 align:middle line:84% I have to drink water and clean water. 00:37:20.580 --> 00:37:23.490 align:middle line:90% I cannot do without it, no? 00:37:23.490 --> 00:37:25.650 align:middle line:90% But it is not that that made me. 00:37:25.650 --> 00:37:28.860 align:middle line:84% As we say in Haiti, you are not going 00:37:28.860 --> 00:37:32.580 align:middle line:84% to have that to the graveyard with you. 00:37:32.580 --> 00:37:35.737 align:middle line:84% You're going to go to the graveyard naked. 00:37:35.737 --> 00:37:38.070 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Let's go around to it with [INAUDIBLE].. 00:37:38.070 --> 00:37:39.930 align:middle line:84% Write down your question and then-- 00:37:39.930 --> 00:37:42.388 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: And it's not-- it was just going a [? long way. ?] 00:37:42.388 --> 00:37:44.302 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: I have four questions into one. 00:37:44.302 --> 00:37:45.510 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Lift your mask. 00:37:45.510 --> 00:37:48.060 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Oh, I have like four questions into one. 00:37:48.060 --> 00:37:51.460 align:middle line:84% But they all center around the counter-plantation system. 00:37:51.460 --> 00:37:53.700 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Around the counter-plantation system? 00:37:53.700 --> 00:37:56.070 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Yeah, so do you think that the fact that France 00:37:56.070 --> 00:37:58.920 align:middle line:84% was "a master away from home" helped cultivate 00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:00.390 align:middle line:90% the counter-plantation system? 00:38:00.390 --> 00:38:03.155 align:middle line:84% And coming from a Dominican person, 00:38:03.155 --> 00:38:04.780 align:middle line:84% like someone who was governed by Spain, 00:38:04.780 --> 00:38:07.020 align:middle line:84% do you think that is also why Haiti was able to be 00:38:07.020 --> 00:38:08.560 align:middle line:90% successful in this system? 00:38:08.560 --> 00:38:11.490 align:middle line:84% Meanwhile, the DR, we still have haciendas 00:38:11.490 --> 00:38:13.530 align:middle line:90% and "modern plantations." 00:38:13.530 --> 00:38:16.170 align:middle line:84% And thinking about success, how successful 00:38:16.170 --> 00:38:17.670 align:middle line:84% was the counter-plantation system? 00:38:17.670 --> 00:38:20.370 align:middle line:84% And are we measuring success on the basis 00:38:20.370 --> 00:38:23.700 align:middle line:84% of do our people remember or are our people knowledgeable, 00:38:23.700 --> 00:38:27.060 align:middle line:84% or we're measuring on a-- have we managed to dismantle 00:38:27.060 --> 00:38:29.520 align:middle line:84% the capitalist society that the Pearl of the Antilles 00:38:29.520 --> 00:38:30.840 align:middle line:90% was built upon? 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:33.570 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: I'm going to answer the first half 00:38:33.570 --> 00:38:37.290 align:middle line:84% and then you reformulate the second half. 00:38:37.290 --> 00:38:41.910 align:middle line:84% The hacienda could be the proper translation 00:38:41.910 --> 00:38:43.770 align:middle line:90% for the word plantation. 00:38:43.770 --> 00:38:47.670 align:middle line:84% So the French never had the counter-plantation system. 00:38:47.670 --> 00:38:50.550 align:middle line:90% The French has an "hacienda." 00:38:50.550 --> 00:38:53.670 align:middle line:84% It organized the hacienda properly 00:38:53.670 --> 00:38:57.330 align:middle line:84% as a capitalist system, a rational system where 00:38:57.330 --> 00:39:02.100 align:middle line:84% every single input oriented toward an output 00:39:02.100 --> 00:39:04.290 align:middle line:84% called a merchandise or commodity 00:39:04.290 --> 00:39:06.060 align:middle line:90% to produce more commodities. 00:39:06.060 --> 00:39:08.550 align:middle line:84% That is the plantation, the hacienda. 00:39:08.550 --> 00:39:12.840 align:middle line:84% Now to save some money, the owner 00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:14.790 align:middle line:84% of the hacienda or the plantation 00:39:14.790 --> 00:39:21.570 align:middle line:84% have some what we call provision grounds, some "konoko." 00:39:21.570 --> 00:39:25.020 align:middle line:84% Where they won't pay you, they have you working on the konoko. 00:39:25.020 --> 00:39:28.650 align:middle line:84% OK, now you're on the konoko, on the provision grounds. 00:39:28.650 --> 00:39:32.340 align:middle line:84% You're going to organize the lakou, the yard. 00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:35.550 align:middle line:84% You're going to organize a system of solidarity 00:39:35.550 --> 00:39:38.190 align:middle line:84% and reciprocity where you protect your people. 00:39:38.190 --> 00:39:43.620 align:middle line:84% So you're making use of one move of the dominant system 00:39:43.620 --> 00:39:45.480 align:middle line:90% for your own ends. 00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:50.730 align:middle line:84% We call that you serve, you utilize the dominant system 00:39:50.730 --> 00:39:52.140 align:middle line:90% to serve your own ends. 00:39:52.140 --> 00:39:57.120 align:middle line:84% So therefore, the counter-plantation system 00:39:57.120 --> 00:40:00.570 align:middle line:84% is born within the plantation system, within the hacienda. 00:40:00.570 --> 00:40:05.730 align:middle line:84% And when 1791-- let's say, 117, [INAUDIBLE]---- 00:40:05.730 --> 00:40:08.460 align:middle line:90% 17-- [INAUDIBLE] '89. 00:40:08.460 --> 00:40:10.410 align:middle line:84% When the French Revolution started 00:40:10.410 --> 00:40:12.930 align:middle line:84% and the planters, the "hacenderos," 00:40:12.930 --> 00:40:18.720 align:middle line:84% start fighting each other, you start developing your konokos. 00:40:18.720 --> 00:40:21.060 align:middle line:84% And this is when the nation is going, really, 00:40:21.060 --> 00:40:25.620 align:middle line:84% to take a structure but on a national level. 00:40:25.620 --> 00:40:31.020 align:middle line:84% And since I'm there, what is important is that 00:40:31.020 --> 00:40:34.470 align:middle line:84% the counter-plantation system, the villages-- 00:40:34.470 --> 00:40:36.960 align:middle line:90% it's a village system. 00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:40.030 align:middle line:90% The villages are isolated. 00:40:40.030 --> 00:40:41.650 align:middle line:90% They are microclimates. 00:40:41.650 --> 00:40:42.850 align:middle line:90% They produce certain goods. 00:40:42.850 --> 00:40:45.100 align:middle line:84% If you are in the mountain, you can have spices, 00:40:45.100 --> 00:40:47.040 align:middle line:90% you can have fruits, et cetera. 00:40:47.040 --> 00:40:48.790 align:middle line:84% If you're in the flatland, you have mango, 00:40:48.790 --> 00:40:49.960 align:middle line:90% you have banana, et cetera. 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:51.860 align:middle line:84% In the mountain, you have coffee. 00:40:51.860 --> 00:40:54.640 align:middle line:90% So you have to exchange, no? 00:40:54.640 --> 00:40:56.770 align:middle line:84% And you are going to create, this 00:40:56.770 --> 00:40:58.660 align:middle line:84% is our case, the internal market, 00:40:58.660 --> 00:41:00.890 align:middle line:84% because there was no internal market in term 00:41:00.890 --> 00:41:02.230 align:middle line:90% of colonial time. 00:41:02.230 --> 00:41:06.190 align:middle line:84% What was important was only the export of the commodity. 00:41:06.190 --> 00:41:08.350 align:middle line:84% So you create the counter-plantation 00:41:08.350 --> 00:41:10.240 align:middle line:90% you create the internal market. 00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:13.830 align:middle line:90% And who manage internal market? 00:41:13.830 --> 00:41:15.930 align:middle line:90% The female higglers. 00:41:15.930 --> 00:41:19.410 align:middle line:84% The woman was going to tide of the nation, the women 00:41:19.410 --> 00:41:20.910 align:middle line:84% the tide of the nation, not the men. 00:41:20.910 --> 00:41:22.285 align:middle line:84% The men can work, whatever it is. 00:41:22.285 --> 00:41:26.490 align:middle line:84% But those who are responsible to moving goods and moving money 00:41:26.490 --> 00:41:29.490 align:middle line:90% are female up to now. 00:41:29.490 --> 00:41:32.340 align:middle line:84% Your parents when they send money home, 00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:34.080 align:middle line:90% they didn't send it to any man. 00:41:34.080 --> 00:41:37.650 align:middle line:84% They send it to a woman, because she manage money. 00:41:37.650 --> 00:41:39.210 align:middle line:90% She manage resources. 00:41:39.210 --> 00:41:42.810 align:middle line:84% So she will be the one who will-- 00:41:42.810 --> 00:41:44.910 align:middle line:84% tied up-- what I call the "twa wòch dife"-- 00:41:44.910 --> 00:41:47.820 align:middle line:84% the three pillars of the nation-- community, 00:41:47.820 --> 00:41:50.010 align:middle line:90% internal market, and women. 00:41:50.010 --> 00:41:51.660 align:middle line:90% But what tied them up? 00:41:51.660 --> 00:41:53.160 align:middle line:90% Creole language. 00:41:53.160 --> 00:41:54.060 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 00:41:54.060 --> 00:41:56.370 align:middle line:84% You don't see a higgler speaking standard English. 00:41:56.370 --> 00:41:57.040 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] No. 00:41:57.040 --> 00:41:57.540 align:middle line:90% No. 00:41:57.540 --> 00:42:00.030 align:middle line:84% Higglers speak rough Jamaican English. 00:42:00.030 --> 00:42:03.000 align:middle line:84% And this is what is sustaining the nation. 00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:05.503 align:middle line:84% On top of that, an oligarchy is going to-- 00:42:05.503 --> 00:42:07.545 align:middle line:84% OK, now give me the second part of your question. 00:42:07.545 --> 00:42:08.180 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:42:08.180 --> 00:42:09.300 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: So my second question is just like-- 00:42:09.300 --> 00:42:10.967 align:middle line:84% I mean, you kind of answered it already. 00:42:10.967 --> 00:42:13.530 align:middle line:84% But how successful is the counter-plantation system? 00:42:13.530 --> 00:42:16.500 align:middle line:84% And are we measuring success on the basis 00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:19.352 align:middle line:84% of do our people remember our history, 00:42:19.352 --> 00:42:20.310 align:middle line:90% are they knowledgeable? 00:42:20.310 --> 00:42:22.260 align:middle line:84% Or are we measuring on how we manage 00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:24.780 align:middle line:84% to dismantle the capitalistic society that 00:42:24.780 --> 00:42:27.180 align:middle line:84% was established in the Pearl of the Antilles or Haiti? 00:42:27.180 --> 00:42:28.260 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Wonderful. 00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:35.560 align:middle line:84% The counter-plantation system explains the whole 19th century 00:42:35.560 --> 00:42:37.700 align:middle line:90% Haiti, no? 00:42:37.700 --> 00:42:41.960 align:middle line:90% How we can measure his success? 00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:47.310 align:middle line:84% We started independence with maximum 350,000 people. 00:42:47.310 --> 00:42:51.970 align:middle line:84% We ended up the 19th century with 2 million people. 00:42:51.970 --> 00:42:53.080 align:middle line:90% We multiplied. 00:42:53.080 --> 00:42:55.975 align:middle line:84% But this is not codified by the government. 00:42:55.975 --> 00:42:58.450 align:middle line:84% Government want to recreate the plantation, 00:42:58.450 --> 00:43:00.310 align:middle line:90% want to recreate haciendas. 00:43:00.310 --> 00:43:01.730 align:middle line:90% They will not talk about that. 00:43:01.730 --> 00:43:04.000 align:middle line:84% But the fact of the matter is we did that. 00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:08.590 align:middle line:84% Not only did we-- did we do that, we-- 00:43:08.590 --> 00:43:11.110 align:middle line:90% I mean, the Haitians, real-- 00:43:11.110 --> 00:43:13.660 align:middle line:84% I call them Guinean Haitians, no. 00:43:13.660 --> 00:43:21.600 align:middle line:84% The Haitian, real Haitians start absorbing the oligarchy, 00:43:21.600 --> 00:43:24.150 align:middle line:84% because the oligarchy has no use for French, 00:43:24.150 --> 00:43:26.460 align:middle line:84% because they had no relation, nor religion. 00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:28.440 align:middle line:90% So they started speaking Kreyòl. 00:43:28.440 --> 00:43:29.490 align:middle line:90% And they had no-- 00:43:29.490 --> 00:43:34.680 align:middle line:84% it isn't until 1860 that the Catholic Church 00:43:34.680 --> 00:43:36.360 align:middle line:84% acknowledged the existence of Haiti 00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:39.370 align:middle line:84% and started sending priests and 12 or 15, whatever it is. 00:43:39.370 --> 00:43:44.490 align:middle line:84% So the people have to use in the spirituality of Obeah or Vodou. 00:43:44.490 --> 00:43:46.920 align:middle line:90% So they start being absorbed by. 00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:48.930 align:middle line:90% Now what makes that possible? 00:43:48.930 --> 00:43:51.360 align:middle line:84% It's not that we are so special, no. 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.870 align:middle line:84% At that time, the big empires of the West 00:43:54.870 --> 00:43:57.960 align:middle line:84% were entering in the imperial colonial time. 00:43:57.960 --> 00:43:59.815 align:middle line:84% They are conquering Africa, conquering 00:43:59.815 --> 00:44:00.940 align:middle line:90% the [INAUDIBLE], et cetera. 00:44:00.940 --> 00:44:03.600 align:middle line:84% So they could do-- the Caribbean economy 00:44:03.600 --> 00:44:05.880 align:middle line:90% becomes totally secondary. 00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:08.970 align:middle line:84% And you had beet sugar, et cetera, et cetera, 00:44:08.970 --> 00:44:10.980 align:middle line:84% so they forget about us, thanks God! 00:44:10.980 --> 00:44:13.500 align:middle line:90% So we could develop. 00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:16.860 align:middle line:84% So for instance, if you take the case of, let's say, 00:44:16.860 --> 00:44:19.487 align:middle line:84% to come back to Barbados-- boy, a good thing there is no 00:44:19.487 --> 00:44:20.070 align:middle line:90% [Bajan?] here. 00:44:20.070 --> 00:44:23.340 align:middle line:84% You will challenge me, stop thinking about Barbados. 00:44:23.340 --> 00:44:27.060 align:middle line:84% But in Barbados for instance, the planters 00:44:27.060 --> 00:44:29.010 align:middle line:90% had a hold on the land. 00:44:29.010 --> 00:44:33.720 align:middle line:84% And the production of sugarcane after emancipation 00:44:33.720 --> 00:44:36.060 align:middle line:90% was higher than before. 00:44:36.060 --> 00:44:39.510 align:middle line:84% To tell you the level of exploitation of the Bajans, 00:44:39.510 --> 00:44:45.210 align:middle line:84% to such an extent they were so attacked by hunger that they 00:44:45.210 --> 00:44:50.190 align:middle line:84% start migrate to Guyana and then to build the Panama Canal, 00:44:50.190 --> 00:44:53.910 align:middle line:84% same thing with Martinique where the planters could 00:44:53.910 --> 00:44:55.440 align:middle line:90% have a hold on the land. 00:44:55.440 --> 00:45:00.300 align:middle line:84% So they had to migrate outside, no? 00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:03.600 align:middle line:84% Not only that, the migration to the Panama Canal, 00:45:03.600 --> 00:45:07.170 align:middle line:84% to the oil field of Venezuela, et cetera, 00:45:07.170 --> 00:45:11.280 align:middle line:84% was such that some countries in the Caribbean had no more men. 00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:15.600 align:middle line:84% You have only male, old male, kids. 00:45:15.600 --> 00:45:17.290 align:middle line:90% And a set of-- 00:45:17.290 --> 00:45:19.830 align:middle line:84% Eric WIlliams even points that out, homosexuality started 00:45:19.830 --> 00:45:23.310 align:middle line:84% developing to such an extent for instance, 00:45:23.310 --> 00:45:26.130 align:middle line:84% in the St Lucia, the word "zanmi," 00:45:26.130 --> 00:45:28.380 align:middle line:90% "friend," means "lesbian." 00:45:28.380 --> 00:45:32.550 align:middle line:84% I was making studies in Creole, no, in Creole Trinidadian. 00:45:32.550 --> 00:45:35.820 align:middle line:84% And I said, oh, and so and so is my zanmi, my friend. 00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:38.220 align:middle line:84% And the St. Lucian said, you can't say that. 00:45:38.220 --> 00:45:40.230 align:middle line:84% You can't say-- he can't be your friend. 00:45:40.230 --> 00:45:41.100 align:middle line:90% And I say, why? 00:45:41.100 --> 00:45:44.670 align:middle line:84% Friend means lesbian, because the word become normal. 00:45:44.670 --> 00:45:46.470 align:middle line:84% And it's not that lesbian [INAUDIBLE] 00:45:46.470 --> 00:45:51.420 align:middle line:90% you to deface or to diminish. 00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:53.040 align:middle line:90% No, no, no, no, that's normal. 00:45:53.040 --> 00:45:54.450 align:middle line:90% The two ladies live together. 00:45:54.450 --> 00:45:56.340 align:middle line:90% They are zanmi. 00:45:56.340 --> 00:46:00.450 align:middle line:84% That was normal, because there was no male figure, adult male. 00:46:00.450 --> 00:46:03.180 align:middle line:84% In several islands-- Eric Williams even mentioned that 00:46:03.180 --> 00:46:06.270 align:middle line:84% in some Caribbean islands that regret-- 00:46:06.270 --> 00:46:09.800 align:middle line:84% I mean, their populations started diminishing. 00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:11.640 align:middle line:84% I mean, in the case of Jamaica, this 00:46:11.640 --> 00:46:14.370 align:middle line:84% is the moment of the migration toward Costa Rica, 00:46:14.370 --> 00:46:17.010 align:middle line:84% toward the movement of Marcus Garvey, 00:46:17.010 --> 00:46:21.030 align:middle line:84% because there is no way you can attack 00:46:21.030 --> 00:46:25.470 align:middle line:90% the land of the British owners. 00:46:25.470 --> 00:46:28.230 align:middle line:84% In the case, of Haiti we didn't go frontally 00:46:28.230 --> 00:46:32.070 align:middle line:90% toward the land property. 00:46:32.070 --> 00:46:34.500 align:middle line:90% We start occupying it. 00:46:34.500 --> 00:46:37.320 align:middle line:84% And the state didn't have strength enough 00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:40.020 align:middle line:90% to kick us out of the land. 00:46:40.020 --> 00:46:44.640 align:middle line:84% There are several elements there I could-- well, in the DR, 00:46:44.640 --> 00:46:46.860 align:middle line:84% I think something like that happened, 00:46:46.860 --> 00:46:50.920 align:middle line:84% because plantation really started with Trujillo. 00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:51.720 align:middle line:90% The Americans came. 00:46:51.720 --> 00:46:55.680 align:middle line:84% And they needed to heal-- to help them. 00:46:55.680 --> 00:46:58.080 align:middle line:90% And you had land. 00:46:58.080 --> 00:47:02.550 align:middle line:84% Not only that, the Dominican Republic I think 00:47:02.550 --> 00:47:09.570 align:middle line:84% developed a set of cattle raising to complete, 00:47:09.570 --> 00:47:15.600 align:middle line:84% to serve the part of colonial French plantation system. 00:47:15.600 --> 00:47:17.970 align:middle line:90% They will sell cattle, no? 00:47:17.970 --> 00:47:20.640 align:middle line:84% So there is a whole tradition of cattle raising. 00:47:20.640 --> 00:47:23.790 align:middle line:84% And when Haitians start their migration, 00:47:23.790 --> 00:47:27.660 align:middle line:84% they start since they were basically agriculturalists, 00:47:27.660 --> 00:47:29.700 align:middle line:84% you see, peasants, they start planting. 00:47:29.700 --> 00:47:33.480 align:middle line:84% And this annoyed Trujillo, because anything he 00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:35.400 align:middle line:90% made to occupy this land-- 00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:38.430 align:middle line:84% if he gave land, the Dominicans go toward cattle raising. 00:47:38.430 --> 00:47:41.820 align:middle line:84% And the one who was taking profit of the land given 00:47:41.820 --> 00:47:43.980 align:middle line:90% was Haitian origin people. 00:47:43.980 --> 00:47:45.720 align:middle line:84% That was their tradition, et cetera, 00:47:45.720 --> 00:47:48.900 align:middle line:84% that created certain conflicts with the state, 00:47:48.900 --> 00:47:52.950 align:middle line:84% because the capital of the [INAUDIBLE] Eastern 00:47:52.950 --> 00:47:56.430 align:middle line:84% part of the country, not the central part of the country. 00:47:56.430 --> 00:47:58.440 align:middle line:84% And incidentally, I don't know if you 00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:05.540 align:middle line:84% know that most of our heroes of this period were from-- 00:48:05.540 --> 00:48:07.530 align:middle line:84% if not from the Dominican, from the border-- 00:48:07.530 --> 00:48:10.070 align:middle line:90% Hinche, these-- Lascahobas-- 00:48:10.070 --> 00:48:12.890 align:middle line:84% This part in-between the two countries, and this 00:48:12.890 --> 00:48:19.550 align:middle line:84% is where we had most strongest opponent to US occupation. 00:48:19.550 --> 00:48:22.940 align:middle line:84% Yes, indeed, Charlemagne Péralte, the name is "Peralta," 00:48:22.940 --> 00:48:23.940 align:middle line:90% in fact, not "Péralte." 00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:25.190 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] You know what I mean? 00:48:25.190 --> 00:48:26.240 align:middle line:90% We say "Péralte." 00:48:26.240 --> 00:48:31.400 align:middle line:84% But he's "Peralta," et cetera, et cetera. 00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:33.750 align:middle line:84% Did I answer your second question? 00:48:33.750 --> 00:48:35.040 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: Yeah, thank you. 00:48:35.040 --> 00:48:36.600 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: I had two questions. 00:48:36.600 --> 00:48:39.080 align:middle line:84% One of them is based on the counter-plantation system. 00:48:39.080 --> 00:48:41.150 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: No, no, remove your mask. 00:48:41.150 --> 00:48:42.660 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: I had two questions. 00:48:42.660 --> 00:48:45.230 align:middle line:84% One of them is based on the counter-plantation system. 00:48:45.230 --> 00:48:49.460 align:middle line:84% But my question was, would you say that the counter-plantation 00:48:49.460 --> 00:48:56.600 align:middle line:84% system was an idea given to the enslaved by the colonizers 00:48:56.600 --> 00:48:57.590 align:middle line:90% given that-- 00:48:57.590 --> 00:49:00.140 align:middle line:84% because I know in history books, they 00:49:00.140 --> 00:49:01.850 align:middle line:84% tell you that the colonizers made 00:49:01.850 --> 00:49:04.950 align:middle line:84% the enslaved find their own food to sustain themselves. 00:49:04.950 --> 00:49:06.410 align:middle line:84% So I was wondering is that, do you 00:49:06.410 --> 00:49:09.140 align:middle line:84% think that's an idea that they were given in a sense? 00:49:09.140 --> 00:49:12.788 align:middle line:90% Or was that just a byproduct? 00:49:12.788 --> 00:49:13.830 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: That's one? 00:49:13.830 --> 00:49:15.038 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: That's one question. 00:49:15.038 --> 00:49:16.860 align:middle line:84% And the second question is, while I 00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:18.780 align:middle line:84% was reading the chapter I remember 00:49:18.780 --> 00:49:20.520 align:middle line:90% the podcast I was listening to. 00:49:20.520 --> 00:49:24.720 align:middle line:84% And one of the guests was saying that they believe 00:49:24.720 --> 00:49:28.080 align:middle line:84% that Haiti should have waited before, 00:49:28.080 --> 00:49:30.840 align:middle line:84% that Haiti should not have done the revolution when 00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:31.380 align:middle line:90% they did it. 00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:31.935 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: They were too early. 00:49:31.935 --> 00:49:32.435 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:49:32.435 --> 00:49:34.990 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Right, so my question is, 00:49:34.990 --> 00:49:36.310 align:middle line:90% what do you think about that? 00:49:36.310 --> 00:49:39.540 align:middle line:84% Because in my opinion, I could see if they had waited, 00:49:39.540 --> 00:49:44.580 align:middle line:84% it would change the trajectory of the slave revolutions 00:49:44.580 --> 00:49:45.880 align:middle line:90% that came after. 00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:48.408 align:middle line:84% But I just wanted to know what you thought about that. 00:49:48.408 --> 00:49:49.575 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: OK, too early. 00:49:49.575 --> 00:49:50.075 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:49:50.075 --> 00:49:55.230 align:middle line:84% Listen, first of all, the counter-plantation system, 00:49:55.230 --> 00:49:58.140 align:middle line:84% I call it counter-plantation system 00:49:58.140 --> 00:50:03.360 align:middle line:84% because it's not the classical peasantry, simply for that, 00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:07.260 align:middle line:84% because the classical peasantry is self-sufficient. 00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:09.810 align:middle line:84% If you take, for instance, Mesoamerica or even 00:50:09.810 --> 00:50:13.740 align:middle line:84% Central Europe, the peasants produce even their instrument 00:50:13.740 --> 00:50:16.200 align:middle line:84% of production, of the-- yes, instrument of production, 00:50:16.200 --> 00:50:18.480 align:middle line:90% like Cuba, no? 00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:20.700 align:middle line:84% Not only that, they have even the textile. 00:50:20.700 --> 00:50:23.400 align:middle line:84% There is no more sophisticated textile 00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:25.470 align:middle line:90% than the Guatemalan textile. 00:50:25.470 --> 00:50:28.410 align:middle line:84% They weave their thing into something great. 00:50:28.410 --> 00:50:31.770 align:middle line:84% But if you are an enslaved, there is a certain number 00:50:31.770 --> 00:50:35.940 align:middle line:84% of things you cannot produce yourself, like button, 00:50:35.940 --> 00:50:42.070 align:middle line:84% an instrument, machete, because you don't have any-- 00:50:42.070 --> 00:50:46.300 align:middle line:84% while the Africans were very skillful in dealing 00:50:46.300 --> 00:50:49.660 align:middle line:84% with iron, but in the Caribbean, where 00:50:49.660 --> 00:50:50.860 align:middle line:90% are you going to find iron? 00:50:50.860 --> 00:50:53.740 align:middle line:84% So you have a "peasantry," in quote, 00:50:53.740 --> 00:50:58.450 align:middle line:84% that must produce an excess to exchange for the other good. 00:50:58.450 --> 00:51:00.100 align:middle line:90% So it's not exactly a peasant. 00:51:00.100 --> 00:51:02.540 align:middle line:84% It's why I call it the counter-plantation system. 00:51:02.540 --> 00:51:05.860 align:middle line:84% Now, I don't think the system comes from the-- that has 00:51:05.860 --> 00:51:08.770 align:middle line:84% nothing to do with the planters, because the planter cannot 00:51:08.770 --> 00:51:15.880 align:middle line:84% imagine a type of relation, family relation like we have. 00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:18.470 align:middle line:84% First of all, to understand really our family, 00:51:18.470 --> 00:51:20.440 align:middle line:84% we must take into account the fact 00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:23.710 align:middle line:90% that the slave has no gender. 00:51:23.710 --> 00:51:28.390 align:middle line:84% They have sex but no gender, like cattle have no gender. 00:51:28.390 --> 00:51:32.050 align:middle line:84% So the first creation of the counter-plantation system 00:51:32.050 --> 00:51:34.030 align:middle line:90% will be the invention of women. 00:51:34.030 --> 00:51:35.410 align:middle line:90% We create our women. 00:51:35.410 --> 00:51:36.640 align:middle line:90% We create our agenda. 00:51:36.640 --> 00:51:37.810 align:middle line:90% We create our men. 00:51:37.810 --> 00:51:41.590 align:middle line:84% We have to imagine a form of structure 00:51:41.590 --> 00:51:44.590 align:middle line:84% where that female and that male can function. 00:51:44.590 --> 00:51:47.020 align:middle line:84% It did not function under slavery. 00:51:47.020 --> 00:51:49.700 align:middle line:84% It function in the counter-plantation system. 00:51:49.700 --> 00:51:55.480 align:middle line:84% Now, we create also the form of a pairing--"mariage," no?-- 00:51:55.480 --> 00:52:02.020 align:middle line:84% the formal-- because do we have the mono-- 00:52:02.020 --> 00:52:02.800 align:middle line:90% bi-- I don't know. 00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:03.342 align:middle line:90% Mono parent-- 00:52:03.342 --> 00:52:04.175 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: Monogamous? 00:52:04.175 --> 00:52:05.260 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Monogamy? 00:52:05.260 --> 00:52:06.730 align:middle line:90% Do we have polygamy? 00:52:06.730 --> 00:52:08.140 align:middle line:90% Do we have-- 00:52:08.140 --> 00:52:12.130 align:middle line:84% I mean, that's-- up to now, we cannot solve that question. 00:52:12.130 --> 00:52:14.110 align:middle line:90% Let me tell you an anecdote. 00:52:14.110 --> 00:52:15.730 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: Nobody can. 00:52:15.730 --> 00:52:17.563 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Particularly in our countries. 00:52:17.563 --> 00:52:22.600 align:middle line:84% For instance, I was telling my wife, my companion 00:52:22.600 --> 00:52:25.780 align:middle line:84% that the young lady walking by me 00:52:25.780 --> 00:52:28.990 align:middle line:84% is telling that so-and-so of his friend 00:52:28.990 --> 00:52:32.950 align:middle line:84% is not there, because the husband went 00:52:32.950 --> 00:52:37.550 align:middle line:90% to visit his married woman. 00:52:37.550 --> 00:52:41.990 align:middle line:84% And also, her friend is available. 00:52:41.990 --> 00:52:44.480 align:middle line:84% She can visit her friend, because the husband 00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:46.850 align:middle line:84% of her friend go to see her married woman. 00:52:46.850 --> 00:52:49.257 align:middle line:84% So I tell my wife, "If I say you my married woman, 00:52:49.257 --> 00:52:50.090 align:middle line:90% what would you say?" 00:52:50.090 --> 00:52:50.965 align:middle line:90% She say, [INAUDIBLE]. 00:52:50.965 --> 00:52:55.550 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] because the fact of assuming 00:52:55.550 --> 00:52:58.250 align:middle line:84% that the companion has a married woman 00:52:58.250 --> 00:53:00.530 align:middle line:90% means that they are polygamous. 00:53:00.530 --> 00:53:03.770 align:middle line:84% And she is not-- she doesn't feel any bad about that. 00:53:03.770 --> 00:53:05.270 align:middle line:90% She's living in polygamy. 00:53:05.270 --> 00:53:09.110 align:middle line:84% And the first lady who married the man is a married woman. 00:53:09.110 --> 00:53:10.850 align:middle line:90% And she is also the woman. 00:53:10.850 --> 00:53:15.500 align:middle line:84% And for the married woman, don't you believe that this means-- 00:53:15.500 --> 00:53:17.750 align:middle line:84% for the ladies, that means-- no, no, that 00:53:17.750 --> 00:53:19.610 align:middle line:84% means the fellow is not there all the time 00:53:19.610 --> 00:53:21.350 align:middle line:90% to bother them, period. 00:53:21.350 --> 00:53:22.640 align:middle line:90% They can do their thing. 00:53:22.640 --> 00:53:24.860 align:middle line:90% They organize their life. 00:53:24.860 --> 00:53:29.570 align:middle line:84% Simply in the house, some sexual partner when they need 00:53:29.570 --> 00:53:31.400 align:middle line:84% or where they arrange themselves. 00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:36.720 align:middle line:84% It's a different set, conception of family. 00:53:36.720 --> 00:53:39.410 align:middle line:84% Not only that, when you have a quarrel, 00:53:39.410 --> 00:53:41.900 align:middle line:84% you have conflicts, the lady, who 00:53:41.900 --> 00:53:45.020 align:middle line:84% is the weakest person in the couple, 00:53:45.020 --> 00:53:47.810 align:middle line:84% she is not going toward the husband to help her. 00:53:47.810 --> 00:53:51.660 align:middle line:84% She going to the eldest brother, she 00:53:51.660 --> 00:53:53.970 align:middle line:84% look in her family who will protect her, not 00:53:53.970 --> 00:53:57.330 align:middle line:90% in the family of the husband. 00:53:57.330 --> 00:54:01.170 align:middle line:84% She may, but that's not necessary. 00:54:01.170 --> 00:54:03.470 align:middle line:84% What is it say is that the husband-- 00:54:03.470 --> 00:54:05.040 align:middle line:84% I mean, sorry, the husband-- the head 00:54:05.040 --> 00:54:06.930 align:middle line:90% of the fam-- of her family. 00:54:06.930 --> 00:54:11.130 align:middle line:84% The eldest brother or whoever is the head must come out. 00:54:11.130 --> 00:54:13.170 align:middle line:84% If the husband come, that will help. 00:54:13.170 --> 00:54:14.340 align:middle line:90% But that's not the point. 00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:15.240 align:middle line:90% She goes to-- 00:54:15.240 --> 00:54:18.840 align:middle line:84% So we have another concept, organization, 00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:21.150 align:middle line:84% which is not codified, because we 00:54:21.150 --> 00:54:24.600 align:middle line:84% are so brainwashed by the Catholic Church. 00:54:24.600 --> 00:54:27.180 align:middle line:90% We're looking for a-- 00:54:27.180 --> 00:54:28.890 align:middle line:90% couples all over. 00:54:28.890 --> 00:54:31.182 align:middle line:84% And we're saying, the men are so promiscuous. 00:54:31.182 --> 00:54:32.640 align:middle line:84% They don't take care of their kids. 00:54:32.640 --> 00:54:34.980 align:middle line:90% It's not the father. 00:54:34.980 --> 00:54:37.780 align:middle line:84% Well, I won't give more anecdote. 00:54:37.780 --> 00:54:40.070 align:middle line:84% I was going to give you another one, but-- 00:54:40.070 --> 00:54:41.820 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:54:41.820 --> 00:54:43.320 align:middle line:90% The other one is the following. 00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:47.400 align:middle line:84% I was teaching in Congo with my wife. 00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:49.470 align:middle line:90% We were both teachers. 00:54:49.470 --> 00:54:53.760 align:middle line:84% And one of the essays that my wife received 00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:58.300 align:middle line:84% said, my eldest father was sleeping under the tree. 00:54:58.300 --> 00:54:59.500 align:middle line:90% My wife say, what's that? 00:54:59.500 --> 00:55:01.460 align:middle line:84% So we had the Congolese living with us. 00:55:01.460 --> 00:55:04.060 align:middle line:84% He said, listen, what is an eldest father? 00:55:04.060 --> 00:55:06.040 align:middle line:90% He has a younger one? 00:55:06.040 --> 00:55:08.590 align:middle line:84% And the Congolese start laughing, like hell, 00:55:08.590 --> 00:55:10.720 align:middle line:84% he takes five minutes before he answered. 00:55:10.720 --> 00:55:12.855 align:middle line:84% He says, yes, because the word for "father" 00:55:12.855 --> 00:55:13.855 align:middle line:90% is the same for "uncle." 00:55:13.855 --> 00:55:22.990 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] That means the eldest brother of his mother 00:55:22.990 --> 00:55:24.070 align:middle line:90% as a "father." 00:55:24.070 --> 00:55:27.610 align:middle line:84% And in Haiti, everybody calls me "father." 00:55:27.610 --> 00:55:32.110 align:middle line:84% When I go Southern Mexico, they call me "abuelo," grandfather. 00:55:32.110 --> 00:55:33.520 align:middle line:90% Everybody calls me "abuelo"-- 00:55:33.520 --> 00:55:37.150 align:middle line:84% and "mi abuelo" let me do that, in Haiti, father-- 00:55:37.150 --> 00:55:39.070 align:middle line:84% to such an extent the police stop me 00:55:39.070 --> 00:55:42.730 align:middle line:84% and say, "Father, give me your license." 00:55:42.730 --> 00:55:45.640 align:middle line:90% I say, "Just a minute, my son." 00:55:45.640 --> 00:55:46.805 align:middle line:90% "How come you call me son?" 00:55:46.805 --> 00:55:48.430 align:middle line:84% I say, "But you just called me father." 00:55:48.430 --> 00:55:50.020 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:55:50.020 --> 00:55:52.290 align:middle line:90% 00:55:52.290 --> 00:55:56.620 align:middle line:84% You see, I mean, these are definitions 00:55:56.620 --> 00:55:58.510 align:middle line:90% that are contextual. 00:55:58.510 --> 00:56:00.130 align:middle line:90% And we use it. 00:56:00.130 --> 00:56:01.635 align:middle line:90% But this is not codified. 00:56:01.635 --> 00:56:03.010 align:middle line:84% And the state do not want to hear 00:56:03.010 --> 00:56:04.385 align:middle line:84% from that, because the state have 00:56:04.385 --> 00:56:08.390 align:middle line:84% to be at par with the international community. 00:56:08.390 --> 00:56:10.720 align:middle line:84% And there is no way you make them respect that. 00:56:10.720 --> 00:56:13.660 align:middle line:84% And I give this story to Professor DeGraff 00:56:13.660 --> 00:56:18.100 align:middle line:84% of that friend of mine who is a member of the great commission 00:56:18.100 --> 00:56:19.450 align:middle line:90% of human rights. 00:56:19.450 --> 00:56:23.200 align:middle line:84% Now, when we say they should make laws for the people who 00:56:23.200 --> 00:56:28.000 align:middle line:84% shack up, he told me shacking up cannot be object of law 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:30.544 align:middle line:90% because it is a crime. 00:56:30.544 --> 00:56:31.460 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:56:31.460 --> 00:56:35.537 align:middle line:84% I mean, you can imagine a lawyer saying that. 00:56:35.537 --> 00:56:37.120 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: A human-rights lawyer? 00:56:37.120 --> 00:56:38.245 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Human rights. 00:56:38.245 --> 00:56:40.780 align:middle line:84% Somebody of my age, a little bit younger than me-- 00:56:40.780 --> 00:56:44.010 align:middle line:84% I mean, but this is what he received at school. 00:56:44.010 --> 00:56:46.810 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: But are we also talking about the difference 00:56:46.810 --> 00:56:49.810 align:middle line:84% between citizenship, being a citizen, which 00:56:49.810 --> 00:56:51.610 align:middle line:84% is what the state wants us to be, 00:56:51.610 --> 00:56:55.645 align:middle line:84% "citizens," and then being a people of the lakou 00:56:55.645 --> 00:56:56.350 align:middle line:90% or community-- 00:56:56.350 --> 00:56:57.670 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Yes, exactly. 00:56:57.670 --> 00:57:00.910 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Of like calling you "father," not calling you 00:57:00.910 --> 00:57:01.880 align:middle line:90% "citizen." 00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:05.230 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: "Citizen," in our case, in our tradition, 00:57:05.230 --> 00:57:10.450 align:middle line:84% is the land owner who has a certain number of enslaved. 00:57:10.450 --> 00:57:12.640 align:middle line:90% Those are "active citizens." 00:57:12.640 --> 00:57:14.856 align:middle line:84% And the others are "passive citizens." 00:57:14.856 --> 00:57:15.690 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:57:15.690 --> 00:57:17.230 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: That's what we're all being 00:57:17.230 --> 00:57:20.590 align:middle line:84% pushed to become, less of community people 00:57:20.590 --> 00:57:21.715 align:middle line:90% and more of citizens than-- 00:57:21.715 --> 00:57:23.340 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: No, but the people do not 00:57:23.340 --> 00:57:24.600 align:middle line:90% want to be "citizens" either. 00:57:24.600 --> 00:57:25.870 align:middle line:90% They do not want the state. 00:57:25.870 --> 00:57:27.850 align:middle line:84% The state never did anything for them 00:57:27.850 --> 00:57:30.520 align:middle line:84% since they exist, they start existing. 00:57:30.520 --> 00:57:32.600 align:middle line:84% I mean, they don't want to participate. 00:57:32.600 --> 00:57:34.420 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: I hope so, but I mean, more people 00:57:34.420 --> 00:57:37.825 align:middle line:84% want to be citizens is a problem in the world. 00:57:37.825 --> 00:57:38.700 align:middle line:90% I think the concept-- 00:57:38.700 --> 00:57:41.710 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: No, I'm talking about local history. 00:57:41.710 --> 00:57:43.200 align:middle line:90% For in the world, I don't know. 00:57:43.200 --> 00:57:45.492 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: It is a question that Iana asked about. 00:57:45.492 --> 00:57:46.860 align:middle line:90% Was it too early? 00:57:46.860 --> 00:57:49.330 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Oh yeah, that's a really important question. 00:57:49.330 --> 00:57:52.830 align:middle line:84% OK, first of all, at least in sociology, 00:57:52.830 --> 00:57:54.780 align:middle line:84% you don't decide what's going to happen. 00:57:54.780 --> 00:57:56.790 align:middle line:90% Society moves. 00:57:56.790 --> 00:57:59.380 align:middle line:84% And we had an opportunity we went through. 00:57:59.380 --> 00:58:01.500 align:middle line:90% We were not asked to do. 00:58:01.500 --> 00:58:06.150 align:middle line:84% For instance, De Vastey speak of the "Haitians in spite of"-- 00:58:06.150 --> 00:58:08.100 align:middle line:90% the "forced Haitian." 00:58:08.100 --> 00:58:12.330 align:middle line:84% Not talking about the set of the freed men, 00:58:12.330 --> 00:58:16.290 align:middle line:84% emancipated persons who wanted to move and to be French 00:58:16.290 --> 00:58:19.860 align:middle line:84% and who actually maintained France or French up to now 00:58:19.860 --> 00:58:21.870 align:middle line:90% as the key of Haiti. 00:58:21.870 --> 00:58:26.370 align:middle line:84% But Napoleon had decided to kill them and to deport them. 00:58:26.370 --> 00:58:30.630 align:middle line:84% So they had to fight with the Maroons for independence. 00:58:30.630 --> 00:58:35.182 align:middle line:84% So he called them "Les Haïtiens"-- 00:58:35.182 --> 00:58:38.250 align:middle line:84% Haitians in spite of themselves, forced Haitians. 00:58:38.250 --> 00:58:42.330 align:middle line:84% And those Haitians were very important in the fight 00:58:42.330 --> 00:58:44.730 align:middle line:84% for independence together with the Maroons. 00:58:44.730 --> 00:58:47.070 align:middle line:84% If not, we will have a modern society and Bush Negroes 00:58:47.070 --> 00:58:48.000 align:middle line:90% like in Suriname. 00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:51.000 align:middle line:84% And then they would conquer us again. 00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:52.170 align:middle line:90% So they were important. 00:58:52.170 --> 00:58:56.670 align:middle line:84% Nonetheless, they didn't choose to fight France. 00:58:56.670 --> 00:58:58.290 align:middle line:84% France forced them to fight them. 00:58:58.290 --> 00:58:59.310 align:middle line:90% That's one aspect. 00:58:59.310 --> 00:59:03.090 align:middle line:84% Second aspect, which is very, very, very important, when 00:59:03.090 --> 00:59:05.790 align:middle line:84% most people are saying Haiti is independent, 00:59:05.790 --> 00:59:09.210 align:middle line:84% was independent too soon-- and not anybody said that. 00:59:09.210 --> 00:59:13.080 align:middle line:84% I'm talking about Aimé Césaire I'm talking about Derek 00:59:13.080 --> 00:59:14.400 align:middle line:90% Walcott. 00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:17.740 align:middle line:84% I mean, people who say, how could Haiti so rich is so poor 00:59:17.740 --> 00:59:18.240 align:middle line:90% now? 00:59:18.240 --> 00:59:19.290 align:middle line:90% That's not possible. 00:59:19.290 --> 00:59:21.090 align:middle line:84% They have been independent too much. 00:59:21.090 --> 00:59:23.730 align:middle line:84% No, well, OK, I'm not saying what 00:59:23.730 --> 00:59:26.487 align:middle line:84% is the level of living in the other countries 00:59:26.487 --> 00:59:29.070 align:middle line:84% of the Caribbean, because I can say the same thing for the US. 00:59:29.070 --> 00:59:31.590 align:middle line:84% I don't think the US is that good either. 00:59:31.590 --> 00:59:33.480 align:middle line:90% But OK, I grant-- 00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:35.190 align:middle line:84% whatever they want, I grant them that. 00:59:35.190 --> 00:59:38.520 align:middle line:84% But what they do not take into account 00:59:38.520 --> 00:59:43.560 align:middle line:84% is the fact that the Haitians, by being independent in 1804, 00:59:43.560 --> 00:59:46.410 align:middle line:84% protected the Haitian from death. 00:59:46.410 --> 00:59:49.100 align:middle line:84% Let me tell you the circumstances. 00:59:49.100 --> 00:59:54.380 align:middle line:84% By 1803 or 1802 or 1801-- but anyway, 00:59:54.380 --> 00:59:57.200 align:middle line:84% before Haiti become independent, Napoleon 00:59:57.200 --> 01:00:00.110 align:middle line:84% gave the order to kill all the Blacks who were rebel 01:00:00.110 --> 01:00:01.910 align:middle line:90% and to re-people the islands. 01:00:01.910 --> 01:00:03.530 align:middle line:90% But he didn't give the order. 01:00:03.530 --> 01:00:08.480 align:middle line:84% He started implementing this order in Guadeloupe 01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:10.370 align:middle line:90% by General Richepanse. 01:00:10.370 --> 01:00:13.400 align:middle line:84% He started killing Blacks, killing them. 01:00:13.400 --> 01:00:17.270 align:middle line:84% And the Guadeloupeans who had started the revolution, when 01:00:17.270 --> 01:00:20.670 align:middle line:84% they realized they are dying, they decided, 01:00:20.670 --> 01:00:24.470 align:middle line:84% OK, let's try to live another day, so we will fight tomorrow. 01:00:24.470 --> 01:00:26.018 align:middle line:90% And they stop fighting. 01:00:26.018 --> 01:00:26.810 align:middle line:90% And they surrender. 01:00:26.810 --> 01:00:29.690 align:middle line:84% And they were re-enslaved because they were fighting 01:00:29.690 --> 01:00:31.880 align:middle line:90% against re-enslavement. 01:00:31.880 --> 01:00:35.330 align:middle line:84% When they stopped fighting, they found that 10% of them 01:00:35.330 --> 01:00:37.340 align:middle line:90% were already killed. 01:00:37.340 --> 01:00:39.020 align:middle line:90% So they were about to kill them. 01:00:39.020 --> 01:00:42.320 align:middle line:84% In the case of Haiti, they start the same thing 01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:48.920 align:middle line:84% at such a point that the Poles who he had sent to fight us-- 01:00:48.920 --> 01:00:51.230 align:middle line:84% they were Pol-- they were peasants-- 01:00:51.230 --> 01:00:54.050 align:middle line:84% realizing that they say, no, we are not participating 01:00:54.050 --> 01:00:55.760 align:middle line:90% in killing civilians and kids. 01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:57.320 align:middle line:90% We didn't come here for that. 01:00:57.320 --> 01:00:59.960 align:middle line:84% And they move and fight with the Haitians. 01:00:59.960 --> 01:01:02.810 align:middle line:84% And this is also another reason why Dessalines declared 01:01:02.810 --> 01:01:05.013 align:middle line:84% that the Poles were Black, because this 01:01:05.013 --> 01:01:05.930 align:middle line:90% is what we call Black. 01:01:05.930 --> 01:01:08.810 align:middle line:90% It's not being Black tinted. 01:01:08.810 --> 01:01:12.000 align:middle line:90% OK, so Haiti became independent. 01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:16.655 align:middle line:84% And Napoleon could not kill those Haitians to have-- 01:01:16.655 --> 01:01:18.260 align:middle line:90% too many people, they say. 01:01:18.260 --> 01:01:23.630 align:middle line:84% In the countries that remain colonies that were not 01:01:23.630 --> 01:01:26.315 align:middle line:84% independent so soon, as I just told you, 01:01:26.315 --> 01:01:28.670 align:middle line:84% you had to let a set of out migration, 01:01:28.670 --> 01:01:30.800 align:middle line:84% because you had hungers in Martinique, 01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:33.650 align:middle line:84% hungers in Barbados, hungers in-- great hungers, 01:01:33.650 --> 01:01:36.050 align:middle line:90% because the white people-- 01:01:36.050 --> 01:01:42.050 align:middle line:84% Barbados is a typical case-- intensified the exploitation 01:01:42.050 --> 01:01:45.050 align:middle line:84% of their former enslaved and produce 01:01:45.050 --> 01:01:49.280 align:middle line:84% much more without introducing new technology. 01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:52.850 align:middle line:84% You see, Barbados was producing more than Cuba 01:01:52.850 --> 01:01:56.490 align:middle line:84% when Cuba had production with new technology. 01:01:56.490 --> 01:02:00.980 align:middle line:84% So they increased the exploitation of the Bajans. 01:02:00.980 --> 01:02:03.140 align:middle line:90% And more Bajans die in Barbados. 01:02:03.140 --> 01:02:04.940 align:middle line:84% And more Bajans had to leave the country 01:02:04.940 --> 01:02:09.240 align:middle line:84% in conditions that were very similar to the slave trade. 01:02:09.240 --> 01:02:12.320 align:middle line:84% So it is-- you didn't choose to be independent. 01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:13.370 align:middle line:90% The opportunity comes. 01:02:13.370 --> 01:02:14.730 align:middle line:90% There is a crack in the system. 01:02:14.730 --> 01:02:16.130 align:middle line:90% And you move. 01:02:16.130 --> 01:02:18.620 align:middle line:90% And you establish yourself. 01:02:18.620 --> 01:02:20.480 align:middle line:90% But how did you done that? 01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:22.430 align:middle line:90% What would happen? 01:02:22.430 --> 01:02:28.310 align:middle line:84% Because now that gives us one way out. 01:02:28.310 --> 01:02:30.560 align:middle line:90% Haitians become independent. 01:02:30.560 --> 01:02:33.620 align:middle line:84% We multiply the population, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 01:02:33.620 --> 01:02:38.510 align:middle line:84% But our development is based on inner management 01:02:38.510 --> 01:02:42.140 align:middle line:90% of our inner system. 01:02:42.140 --> 01:02:45.530 align:middle line:84% While we do not have one thing the Bajans have 01:02:45.530 --> 01:02:47.570 align:middle line:84% or the Jamaicans also, they know how 01:02:47.570 --> 01:02:49.370 align:middle line:84% to negotiate with the other person. 01:02:49.370 --> 01:02:52.160 align:middle line:90% We don't know that up to now. 01:02:52.160 --> 01:02:57.740 align:middle line:84% It is now that we are learning what happened with the West. 01:02:57.740 --> 01:03:00.170 align:middle line:84% When the Americans occupied Haiti, 01:03:00.170 --> 01:03:02.960 align:middle line:84% the president of Haiti, Dartiguenave, 01:03:02.960 --> 01:03:05.900 align:middle line:84% had no idea of what the Americans were up to. 01:03:05.900 --> 01:03:07.430 align:middle line:90% He thought they came to help us. 01:03:07.430 --> 01:03:09.860 align:middle line:84% He could not imagine they came to exploit us. 01:03:09.860 --> 01:03:12.950 align:middle line:84% You can imagine the fellow president of the Republic 01:03:12.950 --> 01:03:15.050 align:middle line:90% has no idea of the occupant. 01:03:15.050 --> 01:03:19.670 align:middle line:84% Not only that, the other day when the US, no, 01:03:19.670 --> 01:03:28.160 align:middle line:84% the UN head of mission visited the general headquarters 01:03:28.160 --> 01:03:31.250 align:middle line:84% of the army, in the general headquarters 01:03:31.250 --> 01:03:34.580 align:middle line:84% of the army, all the big chiefs of the US occupation 01:03:34.580 --> 01:03:37.520 align:middle line:84% were there as founder of the Haitian army. 01:03:37.520 --> 01:03:41.090 align:middle line:84% He said, where you have found an independent country where 01:03:41.090 --> 01:03:45.020 align:middle line:84% the occupant is put as the creator of the army, 01:03:45.020 --> 01:03:46.640 align:middle line:90% of the national army? 01:03:46.640 --> 01:03:52.130 align:middle line:84% You can imagine Jamaica's headquarters 01:03:52.130 --> 01:03:55.220 align:middle line:84% of the army with all the British there who created the army. 01:03:55.220 --> 01:03:58.610 align:middle line:84% For God's sake, at least take them off. 01:03:58.610 --> 01:04:01.100 align:middle line:84% But in Haiti up to now, and they had that-- no, not 01:04:01.100 --> 01:04:04.070 align:middle line:84% up to now, because Aristide ended this army, 01:04:04.070 --> 01:04:07.130 align:middle line:90% but to tell you the situation. 01:04:07.130 --> 01:04:09.950 align:middle line:84% So is Haiti independent too early or not? 01:04:09.950 --> 01:04:11.990 align:middle line:90% OK, I don't know. 01:04:11.990 --> 01:04:13.970 align:middle line:84% Ask-- as Vastey would say, as those 01:04:13.970 --> 01:04:19.580 align:middle line:84% who died on the boat going-- and the life 01:04:19.580 --> 01:04:22.190 align:middle line:84% of the Caribbean people in Panama 01:04:22.190 --> 01:04:24.230 align:middle line:84% during the construction of the, like-- there's 01:04:24.230 --> 01:04:29.030 align:middle line:84% a wonderful documentary made here in the US 01:04:29.030 --> 01:04:34.070 align:middle line:84% on the Caribbean people building the Panama Canal. 01:04:34.070 --> 01:04:36.835 align:middle line:90% Oh boy, you are to cry. 01:04:36.835 --> 01:04:37.460 align:middle line:90% You are to cry. 01:04:37.460 --> 01:04:40.350 align:middle line:84% And up to now they are protesting 01:04:40.350 --> 01:04:42.350 align:middle line:84% the way they beat them, the way they treat them, 01:04:42.350 --> 01:04:47.240 align:middle line:84% how they died, I mean, in Culebra, building the Panama 01:04:47.240 --> 01:04:52.070 align:middle line:84% Canal, because you should not forget that the 19th century is 01:04:52.070 --> 01:04:54.530 align:middle line:90% the time of Jim Crow laws here. 01:04:54.530 --> 01:04:57.330 align:middle line:84% And those who are building the canal, 01:04:57.330 --> 01:05:00.200 align:middle line:90% they are the Jim Crow fellows. 01:05:00.200 --> 01:05:01.490 align:middle line:90% I mean, they are-- 01:05:01.490 --> 01:05:04.310 align:middle line:84% just have when the Black North American, 01:05:04.310 --> 01:05:06.350 align:middle line:84% when African-Americans start voting, 01:05:06.350 --> 01:05:09.140 align:middle line:84% to give you an idea of what happened 50 years earlier 01:05:09.140 --> 01:05:12.290 align:middle line:84% in countries that were not even America-- 01:05:12.290 --> 01:05:14.210 align:middle line:84% this is how-- you know, you can imagine 01:05:14.210 --> 01:05:15.240 align:middle line:90% what was going on there. 01:05:15.240 --> 01:05:19.340 align:middle line:84% Now, so was Haiti independent too early? 01:05:19.340 --> 01:05:23.660 align:middle line:84% I mean, are we comparing what is left of Barbados, 01:05:23.660 --> 01:05:25.550 align:middle line:84% because we let a set of Barbadian 01:05:25.550 --> 01:05:27.740 align:middle line:84% die, because this is what happened. 01:05:27.740 --> 01:05:31.460 align:middle line:84% Barbados is the country, at least compared to Haiti, 01:05:31.460 --> 01:05:32.780 align:middle line:90% where even-- 01:05:32.780 --> 01:05:38.510 align:middle line:84% everybody has secondary school diploma, everybody, everybody. 01:05:38.510 --> 01:05:42.170 align:middle line:84% In Haiti, oh, I think we can count them with your hand. 01:05:42.170 --> 01:05:43.850 align:middle line:84% And those who have it, we don't know 01:05:43.850 --> 01:05:49.670 align:middle line:84% how bad is that instruction-- in education-- schooling is. 01:05:49.670 --> 01:05:54.950 align:middle line:84% So obviously, this allows certain regions to go forward. 01:05:54.950 --> 01:05:57.200 align:middle line:90% But how many of them died? 01:05:57.200 --> 01:06:00.560 align:middle line:90% How many of them are not there? 01:06:00.560 --> 01:06:03.530 align:middle line:84% Obviously, I'm sure that the state will not speak 01:06:03.530 --> 01:06:06.290 align:middle line:90% too much about the suffering. 01:06:06.290 --> 01:06:12.950 align:middle line:84% Martinique knew hunger, while Haiti was at the time in what 01:06:12.950 --> 01:06:16.350 align:middle line:84% Manigat called-- one of our historians called ""le bonheur 01:06:16.350 --> 01:06:18.860 align:middle line:90% vivrier," the village happiness. 01:06:18.860 --> 01:06:22.820 align:middle line:84% I mean, we had full-fledged village happiness. 01:06:22.820 --> 01:06:25.520 align:middle line:84% And the knowledge-- we allowed the state 01:06:25.520 --> 01:06:27.530 align:middle line:90% building one hospital. 01:06:27.530 --> 01:06:30.470 align:middle line:84% Just the knowledge of the people, which was not too much, 01:06:30.470 --> 01:06:31.380 align:middle line:90% you could go-- 01:06:31.380 --> 01:06:34.730 align:middle line:84% But anyway, that was enough to multiply the population 01:06:34.730 --> 01:06:35.570 align:middle line:90% by five. 01:06:35.570 --> 01:06:40.550 align:middle line:84% And not only that, there is no country in the whole America 01:06:40.550 --> 01:06:43.220 align:middle line:84% where you have a normal increase of the population 01:06:43.220 --> 01:06:44.910 align:middle line:84% naturally because of the population. 01:06:44.910 --> 01:06:46.490 align:middle line:84% All of them increased the population 01:06:46.490 --> 01:06:48.860 align:middle line:84% through migration coming from Europe. 01:06:48.860 --> 01:06:52.520 align:middle line:84% And at this 19th century when they were migrating 01:06:52.520 --> 01:06:56.810 align:middle line:84% toward the Latin America or South Africa, 01:06:56.810 --> 01:06:58.502 align:middle line:84% et cetera, et cetera, I want to know 01:06:58.502 --> 01:07:00.710 align:middle line:84% why they were leaving their country, not because they 01:07:00.710 --> 01:07:02.210 align:middle line:90% have too much. 01:07:02.210 --> 01:07:04.160 align:middle line:90% Why the Italians left Italy? 01:07:04.160 --> 01:07:08.210 align:middle line:84% Why the Spaniard left Spain, the Vatican City? 01:07:08.210 --> 01:07:13.160 align:middle line:84% Why the Dutch and the British left in the 19th century 01:07:13.160 --> 01:07:16.040 align:middle line:84% when the Industrial Revolution is 01:07:16.040 --> 01:07:19.640 align:middle line:84% taking place, when you have capitalism developing itself 01:07:19.640 --> 01:07:21.500 align:middle line:90% and conquering the whole world? 01:07:21.500 --> 01:07:25.100 align:middle line:84% What was the level of living, the number of Swedish people 01:07:25.100 --> 01:07:28.390 align:middle line:90% who went from Sweden to the US? 01:07:28.390 --> 01:07:30.100 align:middle line:84% And you can see their photo and they're 01:07:30.100 --> 01:07:31.900 align:middle line:90% showing they are migrants. 01:07:31.900 --> 01:07:36.290 align:middle line:84% Killing Indians, OK, but listen, if you are so well-fed 01:07:36.290 --> 01:07:42.910 align:middle line:84% in Swede, you are not coming here to kill-- in Sweden-- 01:07:42.910 --> 01:07:43.780 align:middle line:90% to kill Indians. 01:07:43.780 --> 01:07:45.800 align:middle line:90% Stay home. 01:07:45.800 --> 01:07:48.910 align:middle line:84% So all the things, they are not spoken, this is not spoken. 01:07:48.910 --> 01:07:52.600 align:middle line:84% And in that time, the Haitian will multiply. 01:07:52.600 --> 01:07:56.180 align:middle line:84% This is another idea of wealth, to answer. 01:07:56.180 --> 01:07:57.590 align:middle line:90% You see the wealth? 01:07:57.590 --> 01:07:59.840 align:middle line:90% What is wealth? 01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:00.990 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: My question? 01:08:00.990 --> 01:08:04.910 align:middle line:84% So I'll say my general question and then 01:08:04.910 --> 01:08:07.260 align:middle line:84% give a little bit of background for how I got there. 01:08:07.260 --> 01:08:09.650 align:middle line:90% But it seems very general. 01:08:09.650 --> 01:08:12.260 align:middle line:84% But my question is like, what is your why. 01:08:12.260 --> 01:08:14.548 align:middle line:84% And the way I got to that was I think-- 01:08:14.548 --> 01:08:16.340 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Do you say, what is your why? 01:08:16.340 --> 01:08:18.649 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Your why, like why you're 01:08:18.649 --> 01:08:22.640 align:middle line:84% doing this, why you have this power, and things like this. 01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:24.109 align:middle line:84% The way I got to this question is 01:08:24.109 --> 01:08:26.240 align:middle line:84% I think every week we do readings. 01:08:26.240 --> 01:08:27.500 align:middle line:90% We come, someone presents. 01:08:27.500 --> 01:08:29.300 align:middle line:84% And while it is based on the readings, 01:08:29.300 --> 01:08:31.080 align:middle line:84% it's so based on themselves as well. 01:08:31.080 --> 01:08:32.810 align:middle line:84% And like I said, I've learned so much 01:08:32.810 --> 01:08:35.660 align:middle line:84% about all the people in this class and what is their why, 01:08:35.660 --> 01:08:37.910 align:middle line:84% and like why they're here, what they 01:08:37.910 --> 01:08:39.960 align:middle line:84% take from like every reading and stuff like that. 01:08:39.960 --> 01:08:43.880 align:middle line:84% So I wanted to know like specifically and personally 01:08:43.880 --> 01:08:44.835 align:middle line:90% what is your why. 01:08:44.835 --> 01:08:45.710 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: My why? 01:08:45.710 --> 01:08:46.293 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: Yeah. 01:08:46.293 --> 01:08:48.622 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:08:48.622 --> 01:08:49.580 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: You mean. 01:08:49.580 --> 01:08:50.450 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: I love your question. 01:08:50.450 --> 01:08:52.160 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: You mean, you are mean. 01:08:52.160 --> 01:08:53.060 align:middle line:90% Let me tell you. 01:08:53.060 --> 01:08:53.720 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: That's a good question. 01:08:53.720 --> 01:08:54.350 align:middle line:90% I love it. 01:08:54.350 --> 01:08:57.229 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Yeah, because the colonial study implies 01:08:57.229 --> 01:08:59.300 align:middle line:90% that you position yourself. 01:08:59.300 --> 01:09:01.508 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: That's right, absolutely, absolutely. 01:09:01.508 --> 01:09:02.842 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: It's a long story. 01:09:02.842 --> 01:09:03.830 align:middle line:90% You know, I'm very old. 01:09:03.830 --> 01:09:04.819 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:09:04.819 --> 01:09:06.816 align:middle line:90% My why is long. 01:09:06.816 --> 01:09:08.149 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: How old are you? 01:09:08.149 --> 01:09:08.840 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: 84. 01:09:08.840 --> 01:09:10.010 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: 84, that's what I thought. 01:09:10.010 --> 01:09:10.510 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:09:10.510 --> 01:09:11.450 align:middle line:90% 1938? 01:09:11.450 --> 01:09:13.174 align:middle line:84% In one of the interviews, you say 01:09:13.174 --> 01:09:16.340 align:middle line:84% that it's important to look when you were born, 1938. 01:09:16.340 --> 01:09:23.460 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: First, so I belong to a generation that 01:09:23.460 --> 01:09:25.140 align:middle line:90% come exactly after the war. 01:09:25.140 --> 01:09:26.399 align:middle line:90% I'm born in '38. 01:09:26.399 --> 01:09:29.189 align:middle line:84% The war, the Second World War is starting. 01:09:29.189 --> 01:09:34.649 align:middle line:84% And I start seeing, discovering reality 01:09:34.649 --> 01:09:39.000 align:middle line:84% after the war in 1946, which is the time exactly when we have 01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:42.479 align:middle line:84% what we call the 1946 revolution. 01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:47.220 align:middle line:84% This 1946 revolution is the consequence 01:09:47.220 --> 01:09:50.370 align:middle line:90% of the 1915 US occupation. 01:09:50.370 --> 01:09:53.580 align:middle line:84% When the US occupied Haiti, they occupied Haiti 01:09:53.580 --> 01:09:56.730 align:middle line:84% with two things-- the big stick in one hand, 01:09:56.730 --> 01:09:59.820 align:middle line:84% and on the other hand, the Jim Crow policy. 01:09:59.820 --> 01:10:03.600 align:middle line:84% So you can imagine they reintroduced in Haiti 01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:06.480 align:middle line:90% the whole color problem. 01:10:06.480 --> 01:10:09.812 align:middle line:84% This is when Price-Mars come with the "Ainsi parla 01:10:09.812 --> 01:10:14.160 align:middle line:84% l'oncle" on Vodou, et cetera, and when you have the Négritude 01:10:14.160 --> 01:10:18.150 align:middle line:84% issue being brewed in Europe and in Haiti. 01:10:18.150 --> 01:10:23.550 align:middle line:84% And you have Duvalier and what we call Négrisme, 01:10:23.550 --> 01:10:28.710 align:middle line:84% going on to answer the opposition in the country where 01:10:28.710 --> 01:10:33.000 align:middle line:84% the Americans were putting in light-skinned people all over, 01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:33.960 align:middle line:90% et cetera. 01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:35.418 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So Jean Price-Mars, 01:10:35.418 --> 01:10:37.550 align:middle line:84% to give some background, was a scholar 01:10:37.550 --> 01:10:40.758 align:middle line:84% who gave the idea that, look, we have to go back to Africa 01:10:40.758 --> 01:10:42.300 align:middle line:84% to understand who we are as Haitians. 01:10:42.300 --> 01:10:43.620 align:middle line:90% So Africa is beautiful. 01:10:43.620 --> 01:10:44.550 align:middle line:90% Black is beautiful. 01:10:44.550 --> 01:10:47.790 align:middle line:84% And that was in opposition to the Americans that came in 01:10:47.790 --> 01:10:49.050 align:middle line:90% and that were very racist. 01:10:49.050 --> 01:10:51.195 align:middle line:84% So that's what he's referring to as Négritude. 01:10:51.195 --> 01:10:53.070 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Yeah, and interestingly enough, 01:10:53.070 --> 01:10:58.350 align:middle line:84% Jean Price-Mars is the big, son of big landowners 01:10:58.350 --> 01:11:01.290 align:middle line:84% in the countryside, like Péralte, I mean, 01:11:01.290 --> 01:11:05.820 align:middle line:84% because it is good not to put everybody in one bag. 01:11:05.820 --> 01:11:09.690 align:middle line:84% He's a "latifundista," a big landowner. 01:11:09.690 --> 01:11:14.790 align:middle line:84% But he is proud of his position, of what he is. 01:11:14.790 --> 01:11:15.930 align:middle line:90% And he's a doctor. 01:11:15.930 --> 01:11:16.680 align:middle line:90% He's a diplomat. 01:11:16.680 --> 01:11:17.490 align:middle line:90% So anyway... 01:11:17.490 --> 01:11:22.332 align:middle line:84% So in 1946, end of the war, who was-- well, 01:11:22.332 --> 01:11:23.790 align:middle line:84% the war ended a little bit earlier. 01:11:23.790 --> 01:11:27.160 align:middle line:84% Who is president is light-skinned Élie Lescot. 01:11:27.160 --> 01:11:29.790 align:middle line:90% And therefore, the students-- 01:11:29.790 --> 01:11:32.230 align:middle line:90% oh boy, OK. 01:11:32.230 --> 01:11:36.220 align:middle line:84% The students made a so-called "revolution." 01:11:36.220 --> 01:11:38.590 align:middle line:84% And we said, Haiti is a Black country. 01:11:38.590 --> 01:11:40.690 align:middle line:90% The president has to be Black. 01:11:40.690 --> 01:11:42.640 align:middle line:84% It cannot be whatever is the idea. 01:11:42.640 --> 01:11:47.860 align:middle line:84% But they use the term "Black," which is a colonial concept. 01:11:47.860 --> 01:11:52.000 align:middle line:84% And you had as president a Black fellow, Dumarsais Estimé, 01:11:52.000 --> 01:11:53.800 align:middle line:90% who is a big landowner also. 01:11:53.800 --> 01:11:55.150 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 01:11:55.150 --> 01:11:59.500 align:middle line:84% So you are going to have a possibility of development, 01:11:59.500 --> 01:12:01.390 align:middle line:84% because that's the epoch when the US come 01:12:01.390 --> 01:12:03.490 align:middle line:90% with the idea of development. 01:12:03.490 --> 01:12:04.170 align:middle line:90% Eisenhower, etc. 01:12:04.170 --> 01:12:08.140 align:middle line:84% Truman, when development-- so they 01:12:08.140 --> 01:12:12.310 align:middle line:84% are going to take a whole set of policies toward development. 01:12:12.310 --> 01:12:15.670 align:middle line:84% We have to develop the country to make the country capitalist, 01:12:15.670 --> 01:12:18.010 align:middle line:84% modernize the country, et cetera, et cetera. 01:12:18.010 --> 01:12:21.040 align:middle line:84% So that's the period when I am going to school. 01:12:21.040 --> 01:12:22.600 align:middle line:90% I mean, during that period. 01:12:22.600 --> 01:12:29.170 align:middle line:84% OK, so to-- jumping over plenty many things, here I come. 01:12:29.170 --> 01:12:30.820 align:middle line:90% I found a scholarship. 01:12:30.820 --> 01:12:32.620 align:middle line:90% And I'm studying in Mexico. 01:12:32.620 --> 01:12:35.620 align:middle line:84% So I want to know why is it that we are so poor. 01:12:35.620 --> 01:12:39.370 align:middle line:84% After such a wonderful economy, a wonderful revolution, 01:12:39.370 --> 01:12:42.250 align:middle line:84% after such a wonderful independence, how 01:12:42.250 --> 01:12:43.780 align:middle line:90% come we are poor? 01:12:43.780 --> 01:12:45.520 align:middle line:90% And I start studying that. 01:12:45.520 --> 01:12:50.530 align:middle line:90% And I wrote my license, my-- 01:12:50.530 --> 01:12:51.430 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: Thesis? 01:12:51.430 --> 01:12:52.020 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: [INAUDIBLE]? 01:12:52.020 --> 01:12:52.853 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: [INAUDIBLE] 01:12:52.853 --> 01:12:55.870 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: A [INAUDIBLE] my first level, 01:12:55.870 --> 01:12:56.673 align:middle line:90% my-- before master. 01:12:56.673 --> 01:12:58.090 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Bachelor's thesis. 01:12:58.090 --> 01:13:01.000 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: My bachelor's thesis on the Republic 01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:04.180 align:middle line:84% of Haiti, where I went through the history trying 01:13:04.180 --> 01:13:07.990 align:middle line:84% to explain why we are the way we are, "poor," quote unquote, 01:13:07.990 --> 01:13:12.360 align:middle line:84% because I am searching for development. 01:13:12.360 --> 01:13:18.390 align:middle line:84% At the same time, at the end of this period, I entered the UN. 01:13:18.390 --> 01:13:20.760 align:middle line:84% And I ended up also in the Economic Commission 01:13:20.760 --> 01:13:24.180 align:middle line:84% for Latin America, always after prohibition is run, 01:13:24.180 --> 01:13:25.200 align:middle line:90% after development. 01:13:25.200 --> 01:13:26.730 align:middle line:90% Let's develop the country. 01:13:26.730 --> 01:13:31.890 align:middle line:84% So I'm working on development to find out that this is the law. 01:13:31.890 --> 01:13:34.840 align:middle line:84% It's like the carrot you put in front of the donkey. 01:13:34.840 --> 01:13:35.910 align:middle line:90% I mean, you can run. 01:13:35.910 --> 01:13:37.285 align:middle line:84% You can run, you never get there. 01:13:37.285 --> 01:13:40.740 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] et cetera, et cetera. 01:13:40.740 --> 01:13:45.660 align:middle line:84% In the process, I discover "culture." 01:13:45.660 --> 01:13:49.050 align:middle line:84% I realized that Haitians from the very beginning 01:13:49.050 --> 01:13:50.410 align:middle line:90% have two cultures. 01:13:50.410 --> 01:13:54.810 align:middle line:84% And I wrote my PhD thesis with the title "The Oppressed 01:13:54.810 --> 01:13:57.150 align:middle line:90% Culture." 01:13:57.150 --> 01:13:59.010 align:middle line:90% I was studying in Mexico. 01:13:59.010 --> 01:14:02.595 align:middle line:84% I was very much influenced by their conception 01:14:02.595 --> 01:14:04.590 align:middle line:90% of the "Creole." 01:14:04.590 --> 01:14:07.080 align:middle line:84% So I call it "the dominant culture." 01:14:07.080 --> 01:14:10.110 align:middle line:84% Well, at that time, Mexico was in the process 01:14:10.110 --> 01:14:18.240 align:middle line:84% of "Castellanización," to teach Spanish to the First Nations, 01:14:18.240 --> 01:14:21.360 align:middle line:84% not because-- as far as the ideology was, 01:14:21.360 --> 01:14:23.490 align:middle line:90% that would help them to develop. 01:14:23.490 --> 01:14:26.550 align:middle line:84% Now they will modernize, speaking Spanish, 01:14:26.550 --> 01:14:28.410 align:middle line:84% because their language is not the language. 01:14:28.410 --> 01:14:30.210 align:middle line:84% It's kind of dialogue they are speaking, 01:14:30.210 --> 01:14:32.760 align:middle line:84% things that are older than French and Spanish. 01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:35.580 align:middle line:84% But anyway, so they want to erase 01:14:35.580 --> 01:14:37.480 align:middle line:90% that to teach them to speak. 01:14:37.480 --> 01:14:47.500 align:middle line:84% So the Creole Mexicans, they were the dominant class. 01:14:47.500 --> 01:14:49.710 align:middle line:84% So the dominant culture in Haiti I 01:14:49.710 --> 01:14:52.380 align:middle line:84% call it the "Creole culture" as opposed 01:14:52.380 --> 01:14:58.000 align:middle line:84% to an "oppressed culture," which is the culture of the peasants. 01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:03.610 align:middle line:84% And I entered in dichotomy between "Creole" and "Bosal." 01:15:03.610 --> 01:15:07.960 align:middle line:84% The Haitian creolized and the Bosal just fresh from Africa. 01:15:07.960 --> 01:15:12.320 align:middle line:84% And that gives a false idea of the process. 01:15:12.320 --> 01:15:13.390 align:middle line:90% But that's not the point. 01:15:13.390 --> 01:15:19.420 align:middle line:84% That gives the basis for my study on oppressed culture. 01:15:19.420 --> 01:15:24.370 align:middle line:84% And I show how Africa was erased from the history of Haiti 01:15:24.370 --> 01:15:27.640 align:middle line:84% because of the dominance of the Creoles. 01:15:27.640 --> 01:15:28.720 align:middle line:90% OK, so-- 01:15:28.720 --> 01:15:30.512 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Is it "Creole" in the sense 01:15:30.512 --> 01:15:32.200 align:middle line:84% of those who were born in the Caribbean 01:15:32.200 --> 01:15:34.120 align:middle line:84% and who basically were assimilated? 01:15:34.120 --> 01:15:36.580 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Out of mixed-- with the assimilated, too, no? 01:15:36.580 --> 01:15:46.070 align:middle line:84% And also-- well, I proposed acculturation. 01:15:46.070 --> 01:15:48.860 align:middle line:84% So the Creoles were those who were acculturated, 01:15:48.860 --> 01:15:55.070 align:middle line:84% who had learned the Western culture who 01:15:55.070 --> 01:15:58.190 align:middle line:84% were ruling the country, who were the elite, et cetera, 01:15:58.190 --> 01:15:58.770 align:middle line:90% et cetera. 01:15:58.770 --> 01:16:00.920 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean. 01:16:00.920 --> 01:16:04.700 align:middle line:84% While the other one was speaking Creole [Kreyòl] the language, 01:16:04.700 --> 01:16:06.350 align:middle line:84% and they were the oppressed culture, 01:16:06.350 --> 01:16:08.305 align:middle line:84% they have all sort of other institutions, 01:16:08.305 --> 01:16:14.000 align:middle line:84% all sort of other systems who were "traditional, backward." 01:16:14.000 --> 01:16:15.900 align:middle line:84% I would probably not use "backward," 01:16:15.900 --> 01:16:17.180 align:middle line:90% but they were traditional. 01:16:17.180 --> 01:16:18.920 align:middle line:90% They are not modern. 01:16:18.920 --> 01:16:23.750 align:middle line:84% And you had to pull them out of their traditionalism 01:16:23.750 --> 01:16:27.940 align:middle line:90% to modernize them, more or less. 01:16:27.940 --> 01:16:34.180 align:middle line:84% Well, that was a, let's see, one stage. 01:16:34.180 --> 01:16:36.070 align:middle line:84% And at the same time, I'm discovering 01:16:36.070 --> 01:16:39.055 align:middle line:84% that the UN has five or six decades 01:16:39.055 --> 01:16:42.100 align:middle line:84% of investing in development, always 01:16:42.100 --> 01:16:43.435 align:middle line:90% coming back to square one. 01:16:43.435 --> 01:16:45.657 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] There was no development. 01:16:45.657 --> 01:16:47.740 align:middle line:84% But they were investing in decades of development. 01:16:47.740 --> 01:16:50.710 align:middle line:84% And I was working in that, following privilege. 01:16:50.710 --> 01:16:57.130 align:middle line:84% At the same time, I had used-- and since the theory 01:16:57.130 --> 01:16:58.540 align:middle line:90% of dependency-- 01:16:58.540 --> 01:17:00.610 align:middle line:84% I mean, the problem of development 01:17:00.610 --> 01:17:02.230 align:middle line:84% in Latin America and the Caribbean 01:17:02.230 --> 01:17:06.250 align:middle line:84% is that we are dependent of the large countries, 01:17:06.250 --> 01:17:07.480 align:middle line:90% the rich countries. 01:17:07.480 --> 01:17:11.170 align:middle line:84% And we should try to have a set of-- 01:17:11.170 --> 01:17:14.950 align:middle line:84% a sector of our economy that will pull the other sector. 01:17:14.950 --> 01:17:17.100 align:middle line:84% And this sector will control it through 01:17:17.100 --> 01:17:18.887 align:middle line:90% the national bourgeoisie. 01:17:18.887 --> 01:17:19.720 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 01:17:19.720 --> 01:17:23.810 align:middle line:84% This was very common in the '60s to explain the situation. 01:17:23.810 --> 01:17:26.440 align:middle line:84% Then you try to have an independent sector who 01:17:26.440 --> 01:17:34.120 align:middle line:84% will be the locomotive to pull the train, et cetera, 01:17:34.120 --> 01:17:34.630 align:middle line:90% et cetera. 01:17:34.630 --> 01:17:36.250 align:middle line:84% But obviously nobody never had it. 01:17:36.250 --> 01:17:38.710 align:middle line:84% Or those who had it were co-opted. 01:17:38.710 --> 01:17:42.370 align:middle line:90% But this is what we were using. 01:17:42.370 --> 01:17:46.270 align:middle line:84% But I still was quite dissatisfied, 01:17:46.270 --> 01:17:50.380 align:middle line:84% because that will not take Haiti out of poverty. 01:17:50.380 --> 01:17:56.830 align:middle line:84% And not only that, that implies Duvalier as a dictator, 01:17:56.830 --> 01:18:00.790 align:middle line:84% the son of Duvalier, et cetera, et cetera, an effort by the US 01:18:00.790 --> 01:18:07.990 align:middle line:84% to industrialize the country, et cetera, et cetera, all coming 01:18:07.990 --> 01:18:11.680 align:middle line:90% always back to this poverty. 01:18:11.680 --> 01:18:13.870 align:middle line:90% So this is when I start-- 01:18:13.870 --> 01:18:16.900 align:middle line:84% first of all, I move out of the idea 01:18:16.900 --> 01:18:19.690 align:middle line:84% of "development," realizing that "development" is not 01:18:19.690 --> 01:18:21.880 align:middle line:90% bringing us anywhere. 01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:24.610 align:middle line:90% 01:18:24.610 --> 01:18:28.240 align:middle line:90% And therefore, what? 01:18:28.240 --> 01:18:32.470 align:middle line:84% In the process of studying the oppressed culture, 01:18:32.470 --> 01:18:36.470 align:middle line:84% I found the counter-plantation system. 01:18:36.470 --> 01:18:38.860 align:middle line:90% I found the village society. 01:18:38.860 --> 01:18:42.130 align:middle line:84% And I was, by that time, working in Trinidad 01:18:42.130 --> 01:18:43.870 align:middle line:90% with my Caribbean friends. 01:18:43.870 --> 01:18:46.930 align:middle line:84% I started realizing that plantation-- 01:18:46.930 --> 01:18:48.640 align:middle line:84% because we are talking development-- 01:18:48.640 --> 01:18:54.505 align:middle line:84% is the locomotive, no, the key part of the train. 01:18:54.505 --> 01:18:55.630 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: The engine? 01:18:55.630 --> 01:18:57.670 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: The engine of development, 01:18:57.670 --> 01:18:58.630 align:middle line:90% et cetera, et cetera. 01:18:58.630 --> 01:19:04.380 align:middle line:84% And I accept with them that the bush society is 01:19:04.380 --> 01:19:08.780 align:middle line:90% a ...metayage... land tenure? 01:19:08.780 --> 01:19:10.740 align:middle line:90% Not land tenure... metayage? 01:19:10.740 --> 01:19:15.710 align:middle line:90% 01:19:15.710 --> 01:19:18.200 align:middle line:90% You say that in Saint Lucia. 01:19:18.200 --> 01:19:18.830 align:middle line:90% Oh, boy-- 01:19:18.830 --> 01:19:20.480 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: I was about to say that, actually. 01:19:20.480 --> 01:19:21.230 align:middle line:90% Let me look it up. 01:19:21.230 --> 01:19:23.710 align:middle line:90% 01:19:23.710 --> 01:19:27.100 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: When you rent the land to somebody, 01:19:27.100 --> 01:19:28.480 align:middle line:90% [NON-ENGLISH]. 01:19:28.480 --> 01:19:31.630 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Oh, I have an Arabic word for it. 01:19:31.630 --> 01:19:32.800 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:19:32.800 --> 01:19:35.800 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Anyway, so I start thinking 01:19:35.800 --> 01:19:42.010 align:middle line:84% of this form of production, sharecropping, where 01:19:42.010 --> 01:19:47.170 align:middle line:84% traditional, because you should go into a plantation, 01:19:47.170 --> 01:19:50.140 align:middle line:84% into a trade union, et cetera, et cetera. 01:19:50.140 --> 01:19:52.690 align:middle line:84% I must tell you also that the same time with Cuba 01:19:52.690 --> 01:19:54.160 align:middle line:90% is making is revolution. 01:19:54.160 --> 01:19:56.020 align:middle line:90% Cuba is nationalizing. 01:19:56.020 --> 01:19:57.670 align:middle line:90% Cuba is moving forward. 01:19:57.670 --> 01:20:00.237 align:middle line:84% And we were all obviously pro-Cuban, 01:20:00.237 --> 01:20:01.570 align:middle line:90% et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 01:20:01.570 --> 01:20:03.710 align:middle line:90% So we are seeing that. 01:20:03.710 --> 01:20:06.250 align:middle line:84% But this is not working in Haiti. 01:20:06.250 --> 01:20:09.280 align:middle line:84% I mean, this is not work-- not only this is not working, 01:20:09.280 --> 01:20:13.390 align:middle line:84% the Cubans in their efforts are helping Angola. 01:20:13.390 --> 01:20:16.690 align:middle line:90% They are helping Bolivia. 01:20:16.690 --> 01:20:22.060 align:middle line:84% Haiti is just around the corner, [LAUGHS] et cetera, et cetera. 01:20:22.060 --> 01:20:25.570 align:middle line:84% So people start to have doubts, no? 01:20:25.570 --> 01:20:29.740 align:middle line:84% And I start seeing that the economic development is not 01:20:29.740 --> 01:20:33.190 align:middle line:84% giving us a result. And we have to think in terms of culture. 01:20:33.190 --> 01:20:36.850 align:middle line:84% And I start moving with the counter-plantation system, 01:20:36.850 --> 01:20:38.860 align:middle line:90% looking at it at its importance. 01:20:38.860 --> 01:20:43.300 align:middle line:84% And I start discovering the need for working with Kreyòl, 01:20:43.300 --> 01:20:49.540 align:middle line:84% for participation of the people in the development system. 01:20:49.540 --> 01:20:55.240 align:middle line:84% OK, so reaching that point, I wrote a series of article 01:20:55.240 --> 01:21:00.580 align:middle line:84% and publish a book called "Haiti and Its Elites..."-- 01:21:00.580 --> 01:21:01.810 align:middle line:90% no? 01:21:01.810 --> 01:21:03.100 align:middle line:90% "...Dialogue of Death." 01:21:03.100 --> 01:21:04.090 align:middle line:90% Of "deaf"? 01:21:04.090 --> 01:21:05.620 align:middle line:90% People who can't hear. 01:21:05.620 --> 01:21:06.340 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: Deaf. 01:21:06.340 --> 01:21:07.240 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Deaf? 01:21:07.240 --> 01:21:09.040 align:middle line:90% OK, no? 01:21:09.040 --> 01:21:16.940 align:middle line:84% And this is the-- let's see, the book announcing Haiti 01:21:16.940 --> 01:21:21.230 align:middle line:84% and the decolonial history, because it is at that time that 01:21:21.230 --> 01:21:27.200 align:middle line:84% I met my friends of the colonial thinking who thought that 01:21:27.200 --> 01:21:31.810 align:middle line:84% my book on oppressed culture, in fact, 01:21:31.810 --> 01:21:35.290 align:middle line:84% announces the whole decolonial thinking, 01:21:35.290 --> 01:21:37.060 align:middle line:90% because I was trying to see-- 01:21:37.060 --> 01:21:39.460 align:middle line:84% and this is the question I was asking myself, 01:21:39.460 --> 01:21:43.810 align:middle line:84% since my book on oppressed culture is my PhD thesis. 01:21:43.810 --> 01:21:48.460 align:middle line:84% So my PhD thesis is saying, is asking, what is it 01:21:48.460 --> 01:21:50.505 align:middle line:90% that we have done for ourselves? 01:21:50.505 --> 01:21:52.630 align:middle line:84% I mean, plantation, planting, all sorts of things-- 01:21:52.630 --> 01:21:54.760 align:middle line:84% but we have nothing to do in plantation. 01:21:54.760 --> 01:21:56.500 align:middle line:90% That was imposed on us, no? 01:21:56.500 --> 01:21:58.400 align:middle line:84% I didn't raise the question like that. 01:21:58.400 --> 01:22:01.000 align:middle line:84% But I could have done it in that book, 01:22:01.000 --> 01:22:08.660 align:middle line:84% saying that a plantation is not a Caribbean institution. 01:22:08.660 --> 01:22:12.850 align:middle line:84% It is the time when Caribbean is called "plantation America." 01:22:12.850 --> 01:22:15.430 align:middle line:84% I said, no, no, we have something else. 01:22:15.430 --> 01:22:18.972 align:middle line:84% Caribbean cannot be English Caribbean, Dutch Caribbean, 01:22:18.972 --> 01:22:19.680 align:middle line:90% French Caribbean. 01:22:19.680 --> 01:22:21.650 align:middle line:90% Caribbean is Caribbean, period. 01:22:21.650 --> 01:22:23.960 align:middle line:84% I mean, there is something we have done, 01:22:23.960 --> 01:22:26.680 align:middle line:84% which is not English, French, British, or Dutch, 01:22:26.680 --> 01:22:29.770 align:middle line:90% what have you, or Spanish. 01:22:29.770 --> 01:22:33.520 align:middle line:84% So I start looking for what we have learned. 01:22:33.520 --> 01:22:37.080 align:middle line:84% This is what I call "a dialogue of deaf," 01:22:37.080 --> 01:22:44.100 align:middle line:84% because the elite is French, the elite speak French, 01:22:44.100 --> 01:22:46.500 align:middle line:84% the laws are French, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 01:22:46.500 --> 01:22:52.110 align:middle line:84% And in one discussion in Aquin, I was presenting the book. 01:22:52.110 --> 01:22:54.270 align:middle line:84% And somebody said, but what you're saying 01:22:54.270 --> 01:22:55.350 align:middle line:90% there is not an elite. 01:22:55.350 --> 01:22:57.600 align:middle line:90% It is an oligarchy. 01:22:57.600 --> 01:23:01.050 align:middle line:84% I say, oh God, I should have thought of that, 01:23:01.050 --> 01:23:02.740 align:middle line:90% because elite is very simple. 01:23:02.740 --> 01:23:05.790 align:middle line:84% If we are 10 shoemakers, the best 01:23:05.790 --> 01:23:07.710 align:middle line:90% are the elite of the shoemakers. 01:23:07.710 --> 01:23:11.820 align:middle line:84% But if the best does not behave as giving best shoes, 01:23:11.820 --> 01:23:14.610 align:middle line:84% they will go down among the others. 01:23:14.610 --> 01:23:17.250 align:middle line:84% And other people will come as elite. 01:23:17.250 --> 01:23:19.380 align:middle line:84% This is not the case in our societies. 01:23:19.380 --> 01:23:21.090 align:middle line:84% These elite of French speaking people 01:23:21.090 --> 01:23:27.420 align:middle line:84% never go down, because they are an oligarchy. 01:23:27.420 --> 01:23:29.670 align:middle line:84% So I realized that we do not have an elite. 01:23:29.670 --> 01:23:32.100 align:middle line:84% We have an elite, the Vodou priests, the manbo. 01:23:32.100 --> 01:23:34.410 align:middle line:90% And those are elites. 01:23:34.410 --> 01:23:37.050 align:middle line:84% But those who govern the country-- our French speakers-- 01:23:37.050 --> 01:23:38.313 align:middle line:90% are not necessarily elite. 01:23:38.313 --> 01:23:39.480 align:middle line:90% In fact, they are not elite. 01:23:39.480 --> 01:23:42.450 align:middle line:84% They are those who are holding us down. 01:23:42.450 --> 01:23:46.020 align:middle line:84% And therefore, I start now discovering 01:23:46.020 --> 01:23:49.260 align:middle line:90% the decolonial thought. 01:23:49.260 --> 01:23:52.290 align:middle line:84% Let me study what we have done, how we have done that. 01:23:52.290 --> 01:23:55.260 align:middle line:84% How did the Haitian came to be Haitian? 01:23:55.260 --> 01:23:58.230 align:middle line:84% And what makes a Haitian different from a Jamaican, 01:23:58.230 --> 01:24:01.230 align:middle line:84% from a Vincentian, or from a Trinidadian? 01:24:01.230 --> 01:24:04.230 align:middle line:84% Because their local history's different. 01:24:04.230 --> 01:24:05.890 align:middle line:84% You see, when you take-- for instance, 01:24:05.890 --> 01:24:08.310 align:middle line:84% I had the good fortune through the Economic Commission 01:24:08.310 --> 01:24:10.140 align:middle line:90% to work 10 years in Trinidad. 01:24:10.140 --> 01:24:13.050 align:middle line:84% And I tell the Trinidadians that you never knew slavery. 01:24:13.050 --> 01:24:14.830 align:middle line:90% You were a happy people. 01:24:14.830 --> 01:24:16.620 align:middle line:84% And when you think of it, that's true. 01:24:16.620 --> 01:24:21.060 align:middle line:84% The Trinidadians, Trinidad was Spaniard, Spanish, Spaniard, 01:24:21.060 --> 01:24:22.440 align:middle line:90% no? 01:24:22.440 --> 01:24:30.300 align:middle line:84% When Haiti started its revolution beginning of 1790s, 01:24:30.300 --> 01:24:33.390 align:middle line:84% Spain starts receiving the planters running away 01:24:33.390 --> 01:24:35.940 align:middle line:84% from Saint-Domingue to such an extent 01:24:35.940 --> 01:24:38.310 align:middle line:84% that Trinidadians speak the same Creole that we speak. 01:24:38.310 --> 01:24:41.100 align:middle line:84% And we understand each other, because they will come 01:24:41.100 --> 01:24:44.070 align:middle line:90% to Trinidad with their slaves. 01:24:44.070 --> 01:24:46.740 align:middle line:84% And there are several examples like that. 01:24:46.740 --> 01:24:52.080 align:middle line:84% And then the Spaniards and the French planters, 01:24:52.080 --> 01:24:55.830 align:middle line:84% which Trinidadians called French Creoles, the French planter 01:24:55.830 --> 01:24:57.750 align:middle line:84% and the slave will establish Creole 01:24:57.750 --> 01:25:02.040 align:middle line:84% as the basic language of the land together with Spanish, 01:25:02.040 --> 01:25:06.540 align:middle line:84% in certain pockets speak Spanish, French, [? but-- ?] 01:25:06.540 --> 01:25:10.200 align:middle line:84% so the Spanish and Creole, above all, Spanish and Creole. 01:25:10.200 --> 01:25:14.850 align:middle line:90% So soon after, the British-- 01:25:14.850 --> 01:25:18.540 align:middle line:84% Spain cedes the island to the British. 01:25:18.540 --> 01:25:22.470 align:middle line:84% And in the ceded island, the British has to recognize, 01:25:22.470 --> 01:25:25.870 align:middle line:84% it acknowledges the internal laws of this land. 01:25:25.870 --> 01:25:27.900 align:middle line:90% So the British were governing. 01:25:27.900 --> 01:25:31.410 align:middle line:84% And the Trinidadians were speaking Creole and French. 01:25:31.410 --> 01:25:34.080 align:middle line:90% The British was the owner. 01:25:34.080 --> 01:25:40.110 align:middle line:84% So I realized at that point in time, by 1817, 01:25:40.110 --> 01:25:45.510 align:middle line:84% we are 1803, 1804 when the French start 01:25:45.510 --> 01:25:47.100 align:middle line:90% flowing in the country. 01:25:47.100 --> 01:25:50.100 align:middle line:84% By 10 years or 20 years after, the British 01:25:50.100 --> 01:25:52.140 align:middle line:90% stopped the slave trade. 01:25:52.140 --> 01:25:57.355 align:middle line:84% And every time they catch a slave boat in the Atlantic, 01:25:57.355 --> 01:25:58.980 align:middle line:84% they come with the slaves and drop them 01:25:58.980 --> 01:26:01.020 align:middle line:84% in-- the so-called slave captives, 01:26:01.020 --> 01:26:02.680 align:middle line:90% dropped them in Trinidad. 01:26:02.680 --> 01:26:06.000 align:middle line:84% So the population of Blacks in Trinidad 01:26:06.000 --> 01:26:09.270 align:middle line:84% are created without slave trades. 01:26:09.270 --> 01:26:13.920 align:middle line:84% So the slave masters had to take care of the slaves, 01:26:13.920 --> 01:26:17.160 align:middle line:84% because they cannot produce and buy all the slaves. 01:26:17.160 --> 01:26:20.220 align:middle line:84% They must make sure that they reproduce themselves locally. 01:26:20.220 --> 01:26:27.517 align:middle line:84% Not only that, soon after 1838, the British stop slavery. 01:26:27.517 --> 01:26:28.350 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 01:26:28.350 --> 01:26:31.200 align:middle line:84% So the slavery Haitians have known 01:26:31.200 --> 01:26:34.740 align:middle line:84% for 100 centuries with a slave trade 01:26:34.740 --> 01:26:37.290 align:middle line:84% is not what the Trinidadian has known, no? 01:26:37.290 --> 01:26:38.730 align:middle line:84% And when you go to Trinidad, they 01:26:38.730 --> 01:26:41.520 align:middle line:84% are happy, happy going, happy looking people. 01:26:41.520 --> 01:26:42.930 align:middle line:90% They have never have problems. 01:26:42.930 --> 01:26:43.710 align:middle line:90% They never fight. 01:26:43.710 --> 01:26:45.300 align:middle line:84% They do not even know how to fight, 01:26:45.300 --> 01:26:48.520 align:middle line:90% because they never had to fight. 01:26:48.520 --> 01:26:50.670 align:middle line:84% From the very beginning, the masters 01:26:50.670 --> 01:26:54.360 align:middle line:84% has to make sure that they have a slave for tomorrow 01:26:54.360 --> 01:26:55.170 align:middle line:90% at the beginning. 01:26:55.170 --> 01:26:59.190 align:middle line:90% Then slavery become abolished. 01:26:59.190 --> 01:27:01.680 align:middle line:84% So I tell them, you don't know what slavery is. 01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:02.700 align:middle line:90% You can imagine that. 01:27:02.700 --> 01:27:07.920 align:middle line:84% Not only that, they start with the indentured and flooding 01:27:07.920 --> 01:27:11.790 align:middle line:84% the country with indentured, so a whole other dynamic 01:27:11.790 --> 01:27:15.075 align:middle line:84% and a-- whole different sets of-- 01:27:15.075 --> 01:27:18.540 align:middle line:84% OK, this experience in Trinidad now 01:27:18.540 --> 01:27:21.210 align:middle line:84% then come and give me the possibility 01:27:21.210 --> 01:27:25.260 align:middle line:84% of seeing local history developing 01:27:25.260 --> 01:27:29.520 align:middle line:84% and how we are in our local history 01:27:29.520 --> 01:27:34.680 align:middle line:84% producing a way out of quote unquote "our misery." 01:27:34.680 --> 01:27:38.340 align:middle line:84% This is how I went and see the importance of the language, 01:27:38.340 --> 01:27:41.640 align:middle line:84% the importance of the community, the importance of the higglers 01:27:41.640 --> 01:27:44.400 align:middle line:84% because [INAUDIBLE],, and I must say also, 01:27:44.400 --> 01:27:45.910 align:middle line:90% the importance of the yard. 01:27:45.910 --> 01:27:48.370 align:middle line:84% I have some strong friends, Jamaican friends, 01:27:48.370 --> 01:27:53.700 align:middle line:84% particularly Erna Brodber, who wrote on yards. 01:27:53.700 --> 01:27:59.900 align:middle line:84% That is-- and the way the yard is important in Jamaica-- 01:27:59.900 --> 01:28:01.430 align:middle line:90% in Kingston she wrote that. 01:28:01.430 --> 01:28:03.600 align:middle line:84% Me, I'm seeing the world in the countryside. 01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:05.150 align:middle line:90% Then you go to Dominica. 01:28:05.150 --> 01:28:07.370 align:middle line:84% There are several studies in Dominica 01:28:07.370 --> 01:28:10.760 align:middle line:84% and Saint Lucia on the family property system. 01:28:10.760 --> 01:28:14.000 align:middle line:84% All of those are institutions that are Caribbean. 01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:15.890 align:middle line:84% It's not that you don't have family property 01:28:15.890 --> 01:28:16.850 align:middle line:90% system in France. 01:28:16.850 --> 01:28:20.240 align:middle line:84% But it doesn't characterize the land tenure system, 01:28:20.240 --> 01:28:23.300 align:middle line:84% while in other countries it is the basis 01:28:23.300 --> 01:28:24.740 align:middle line:90% of land-tenure system. 01:28:24.740 --> 01:28:27.860 align:middle line:84% And the work I have used in Dominica 01:28:27.860 --> 01:28:31.910 align:middle line:84% shows that those who put-- who has land in the land tenure 01:28:31.910 --> 01:28:33.890 align:middle line:84% system produce more than those who have land 01:28:33.890 --> 01:28:35.360 align:middle line:90% in the et cetera, et cetera. 01:28:35.360 --> 01:28:39.710 align:middle line:84% So this is how I end up in my why. 01:28:39.710 --> 01:28:43.010 align:middle line:84% That's my why, because I reach a point where 01:28:43.010 --> 01:28:47.390 align:middle line:84% I can explain to myself what they call poverty 01:28:47.390 --> 01:28:50.000 align:middle line:84% and why we are quite happy in that poverty, 01:28:50.000 --> 01:28:51.890 align:middle line:90% if you want to see it that way. 01:28:51.890 --> 01:28:56.420 align:middle line:84% We will be unhappy in the city, because in the city, 01:28:56.420 --> 01:28:59.930 align:middle line:84% we are not able to reproduce the yard, properly, 01:28:59.930 --> 01:29:04.090 align:middle line:84% to have our resources to reproduce it. 01:29:04.090 --> 01:29:06.070 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK, that's a good question. 01:29:06.070 --> 01:29:06.668 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:29:06.668 --> 01:29:07.960 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: My why, [LAUGHS]. 01:29:07.960 --> 01:29:09.370 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yeah. that's a good one. 01:29:09.370 --> 01:29:10.600 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: And I had to answer it. 01:29:10.600 --> 01:29:11.023 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 01:29:11.023 --> 01:29:12.356 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yes, you had to. 01:29:12.356 --> 01:29:14.660 align:middle line:90% And you gave a beautiful answer. 01:29:14.660 --> 01:29:16.570 align:middle line:90% So Jezhara? 01:29:16.570 --> 01:29:18.190 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: So I guess my question is-- 01:29:18.190 --> 01:29:19.482 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Remove your mask. 01:29:19.482 --> 01:29:21.610 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Oh, so Creole languages are 01:29:21.610 --> 01:29:24.580 align:middle line:84% very important to the Caribbean community. 01:29:24.580 --> 01:29:28.000 align:middle line:84% But we refer to English Creole as broken English. 01:29:28.000 --> 01:29:31.870 align:middle line:84% Or you promote French over Haitian Creole. 01:29:31.870 --> 01:29:34.060 align:middle line:84% So my question is, what do you think 01:29:34.060 --> 01:29:35.620 align:middle line:84% will happen to our communities if we 01:29:35.620 --> 01:29:38.200 align:middle line:90% keep rejecting that Creole? 01:29:38.200 --> 01:29:39.640 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: I love this question. 01:29:39.640 --> 01:29:41.165 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: If you keep projecting our Creole? 01:29:41.165 --> 01:29:42.020 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Rejecting, rejecting-- 01:29:42.020 --> 01:29:44.830 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Rejecting, oh, it's that's suicidal. 01:29:44.830 --> 01:29:46.540 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: If the state apparatus-- 01:29:46.540 --> 01:29:49.420 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: But first of all, let 01:29:49.420 --> 01:29:52.750 align:middle line:84% me say that I have an unproven theory. 01:29:52.750 --> 01:29:56.440 align:middle line:84% And I'm trying to convince some linguists to work on it 01:29:56.440 --> 01:29:57.220 align:middle line:90% because I cannot. 01:29:57.220 --> 01:30:00.820 align:middle line:84% But they do "la sourde oreille," they don't pay attention. 01:30:00.820 --> 01:30:03.370 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:30:03.370 --> 01:30:07.000 align:middle line:84% Forget about the English Creole and French Creole, 01:30:07.000 --> 01:30:09.200 align:middle line:90% because they are identified. 01:30:09.200 --> 01:30:10.150 align:middle line:90% They exist. 01:30:10.150 --> 01:30:11.050 align:middle line:90% They are bodies. 01:30:11.050 --> 01:30:13.405 align:middle line:84% They have their syntaxes, they have their vocabulary. 01:30:13.405 --> 01:30:14.560 align:middle line:90% They have their words. 01:30:14.560 --> 01:30:16.090 align:middle line:90% For instance, I don't go. 01:30:16.090 --> 01:30:16.895 align:middle line:90% Mick, I see you. 01:30:16.895 --> 01:30:17.770 align:middle line:90% You know what I mean? 01:30:17.770 --> 01:30:18.760 align:middle line:90% These exist. 01:30:18.760 --> 01:30:20.410 align:middle line:90% They are there to see. 01:30:20.410 --> 01:30:23.920 align:middle line:84% My problems start when I speak with the Puerto 01:30:23.920 --> 01:30:25.510 align:middle line:90% Ricans and the Dominicans. 01:30:25.510 --> 01:30:26.425 align:middle line:90% They speak Spanish. 01:30:26.425 --> 01:30:28.090 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:30:28.090 --> 01:30:31.360 align:middle line:90% They speak an imperial language. 01:30:31.360 --> 01:30:35.000 align:middle line:84% Yet I'm pretty sure that this imperial language carries 01:30:35.000 --> 01:30:39.820 align:middle line:84% a historical tradition that departs from the Castilian-- 01:30:39.820 --> 01:30:43.247 align:middle line:84% native Spanish from the Castilian tradition, 01:30:43.247 --> 01:30:44.080 align:middle line:90% you see what I mean? 01:30:44.080 --> 01:30:45.940 align:middle line:84% And they must have concept like we 01:30:45.940 --> 01:30:48.700 align:middle line:84% have "whites," which is not white, 01:30:48.700 --> 01:30:51.520 align:middle line:90% like "black" which is not black. 01:30:51.520 --> 01:30:54.880 align:middle line:84% And this is what I call a linguistic archaeology. 01:30:54.880 --> 01:30:57.520 align:middle line:84% I want somebody to tell me what the Puerto 01:30:57.520 --> 01:31:00.550 align:middle line:84% Rican or the Dominican or the Cuban 01:31:00.550 --> 01:31:05.320 align:middle line:84% are producing that define them and make them 01:31:05.320 --> 01:31:08.770 align:middle line:90% different from the imperial-- 01:31:08.770 --> 01:31:09.755 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: Castilian-- 01:31:09.755 --> 01:31:11.380 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Going from the Castilian. 01:31:11.380 --> 01:31:12.220 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 01:31:12.220 --> 01:31:18.310 align:middle line:84% OK, now in our case, the problem, basic problem-- 01:31:18.310 --> 01:31:23.980 align:middle line:84% and this is a problem with France and the French UNESCO 01:31:23.980 --> 01:31:29.350 align:middle line:84% and so on, they have to justify their existence. 01:31:29.350 --> 01:31:33.760 align:middle line:84% They come with the idea of "universality," 01:31:33.760 --> 01:31:37.840 align:middle line:84% the "universal" civilization, "universal" God knows what. 01:31:37.840 --> 01:31:41.890 align:middle line:84% And they want to destroy all diversity. 01:31:41.890 --> 01:31:47.530 align:middle line:84% And our elite buy into that "universal" thing. 01:31:47.530 --> 01:31:49.790 align:middle line:84% And they will tell you, for instance, 01:31:49.790 --> 01:31:53.140 align:middle line:84% if the Haitians speak Kreyòl, they will be isolated. 01:31:53.140 --> 01:31:54.910 align:middle line:90% I say, let's go quiet. 01:31:54.910 --> 01:31:58.360 align:middle line:90% Haiti has now 8 to 12 million. 01:31:58.360 --> 01:32:01.647 align:middle line:84% When I visited Curaçao, they had 90 million, 90-- 01:32:01.647 --> 01:32:02.980 align:middle line:90% yeah, "quatre-vingt dix mille"-- 01:32:02.980 --> 01:32:04.042 align:middle line:90% 90,000. 01:32:04.042 --> 01:32:05.000 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: 90,000. 01:32:05.000 --> 01:32:05.875 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: 90,000. 01:32:05.875 --> 01:32:07.538 align:middle line:84% One day, I was living in Trinidad. 01:32:07.538 --> 01:32:09.580 align:middle line:84% And I wanted-- you know, Trinidad is very strict, 01:32:09.580 --> 01:32:10.330 align:middle line:90% quite British. 01:32:10.330 --> 01:32:11.740 align:middle line:90% And you cannot buy everything. 01:32:11.740 --> 01:32:13.240 align:middle line:90% IBM, everything is controlled. 01:32:13.240 --> 01:32:15.760 align:middle line:84% So I'm going to Curaçao, which is a commercial place. 01:32:15.760 --> 01:32:18.310 align:middle line:84% I have to buy something from IBM. 01:32:18.310 --> 01:32:20.230 align:middle line:90% But I don't know where IBM is. 01:32:20.230 --> 01:32:21.850 align:middle line:90% So I come on the street. 01:32:21.850 --> 01:32:23.140 align:middle line:90% I saw a fellow well dressed. 01:32:23.140 --> 01:32:23.800 align:middle line:90% He should know. 01:32:23.800 --> 01:32:24.722 align:middle line:90% I ask, where is IBM? 01:32:24.722 --> 01:32:25.930 align:middle line:90% He say, no, no, I don't know. 01:32:25.930 --> 01:32:26.890 align:middle line:90% Ask that lady. 01:32:26.890 --> 01:32:29.200 align:middle line:90% And the lady is selling fruits. 01:32:29.200 --> 01:32:34.350 align:middle line:84% So I tell the lady, sorry, excuse me, where is IBM? 01:32:34.350 --> 01:32:36.100 align:middle line:84% In what language you want the information? 01:32:36.100 --> 01:32:39.280 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] The [INAUDIBLE] from Curaçao, 01:32:39.280 --> 01:32:41.440 align:middle line:90% she speaks to us a Papiamento. 01:32:41.440 --> 01:32:42.358 align:middle line:90% But she speaks Dutch. 01:32:42.358 --> 01:32:43.150 align:middle line:90% She speaks English. 01:32:43.150 --> 01:32:43.840 align:middle line:90% She speaks French. 01:32:43.840 --> 01:32:45.215 align:middle line:84% She speaks all sorts of language. 01:32:45.215 --> 01:32:49.010 align:middle line:84% I could choose the language to receive my information. 01:32:49.010 --> 01:32:51.880 align:middle line:84% Because in Curaçao, as you would say, 01:32:51.880 --> 01:32:53.500 align:middle line:90% Papiamento is taught by school. 01:32:53.500 --> 01:32:56.960 align:middle line:84% They teach Papiamento in the schools. 01:32:56.960 --> 01:32:59.710 align:middle line:84% And the people speaking Papiamento can speak-- 01:32:59.710 --> 01:33:02.800 align:middle line:84% learn and speak, because of the commercial, any language 01:33:02.800 --> 01:33:03.880 align:middle line:90% you want. 01:33:03.880 --> 01:33:06.610 align:middle line:84% I mean, they are not isolated by Papiamento. 01:33:06.610 --> 01:33:12.130 align:middle line:84% Papiamento helps them to be linked with the others. 01:33:12.130 --> 01:33:18.160 align:middle line:84% So if we manage and control our local languages, no?-- 01:33:18.160 --> 01:33:22.360 align:middle line:84% Jamaican, Haitians, Vincentians, et cetera, et cetera, and we 01:33:22.360 --> 01:33:26.770 align:middle line:84% can find out what is the specificity of our language 01:33:26.770 --> 01:33:29.950 align:middle line:84% together with other, we learn to appreciate our language, 01:33:29.950 --> 01:33:33.310 align:middle line:84% to appreciate their language, and to appreciate us, 01:33:33.310 --> 01:33:38.230 align:middle line:84% who have invented a way of respecting everybody. 01:33:38.230 --> 01:33:40.300 align:middle line:84% So to my mind, this is the point. 01:33:40.300 --> 01:33:43.820 align:middle line:90% And this is not a theory. 01:33:43.820 --> 01:33:45.530 align:middle line:90% But I don't know how to call it. 01:33:45.530 --> 01:33:48.170 align:middle line:84% They are when they are putting down. 01:33:48.170 --> 01:33:50.480 align:middle line:84% Or if Haiti speaks Kreyòl, they will be isolated. 01:33:50.480 --> 01:33:53.000 align:middle line:90% Aren't we isolated now? 01:33:53.000 --> 01:33:56.000 align:middle line:84% And since when do we speak French? 01:33:56.000 --> 01:33:59.420 align:middle line:84% If France just learn how to speak French-- 01:33:59.420 --> 01:34:00.320 align:middle line:90% they just learn. 01:34:00.320 --> 01:34:01.700 align:middle line:90% It's 100 year. 01:34:01.700 --> 01:34:03.860 align:middle line:90% I mean, French is--- 01:34:03.860 --> 01:34:06.650 align:middle line:84% I don't know, English is worse, they told me. 01:34:06.650 --> 01:34:09.740 align:middle line:84% And French is the language of the administration 01:34:09.740 --> 01:34:10.730 align:middle line:90% and of Paris. 01:34:10.730 --> 01:34:14.930 align:middle line:84% And French was imposed on the provinces of France 01:34:14.930 --> 01:34:18.950 align:middle line:90% to strengthen the central power. 01:34:18.950 --> 01:34:21.630 align:middle line:90% And it remains. 01:34:21.630 --> 01:34:30.110 align:middle line:84% I mean, Eugen Weber present that in his book, 01:34:30.110 --> 01:34:32.190 align:middle line:90% "Le parler de terroirs"--. 01:34:32.190 --> 01:34:36.110 align:middle line:84% It's really important, because French is not 01:34:36.110 --> 01:34:39.650 align:middle line:84% a country that come from all French people, 01:34:39.650 --> 01:34:42.680 align:middle line:84% because French was a country of peasants. 01:34:42.680 --> 01:34:51.650 align:middle line:84% And the plantation is the first capitalist, rational economic 01:34:51.650 --> 01:34:52.520 align:middle line:90% concern. 01:34:52.520 --> 01:34:55.167 align:middle line:84% Now this is why when you have English in Jamaica, 01:34:55.167 --> 01:34:57.500 align:middle line:84% you have Creole English, Jamaicans speak Creole English, 01:34:57.500 --> 01:35:01.220 align:middle line:84% period, all Jamaicans, while in France, you leave one village, 01:35:01.220 --> 01:35:03.710 align:middle line:84% you go to another, and you cannot understand what they are 01:35:03.710 --> 01:35:07.550 align:middle line:84% saying, because they have a small microclimate, 01:35:07.550 --> 01:35:12.200 align:middle line:84% microvillage without this connection that would give you 01:35:12.200 --> 01:35:15.050 align:middle line:90% an internal comprehension. 01:35:15.050 --> 01:35:16.040 align:middle line:90% This is a fact. 01:35:16.040 --> 01:35:18.560 align:middle line:90% And when they say Haiti-- 01:35:18.560 --> 01:35:21.960 align:middle line:84% and then, well, let's say Haiti speaks French. 01:35:21.960 --> 01:35:23.760 align:middle line:90% From colonial times up to now. 01:35:23.760 --> 01:35:26.580 align:middle line:90% Please, please. 01:35:26.580 --> 01:35:32.010 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] Now it's-- they find that insolent and insulting 01:35:32.010 --> 01:35:35.580 align:middle line:84% that in some Canadian and French University, 01:35:35.580 --> 01:35:38.760 align:middle line:84% they request the Haitian to present a kind of TOEFL 01:35:38.760 --> 01:35:42.270 align:middle line:84% examination to prove that this French. 01:35:42.270 --> 01:35:43.830 align:middle line:90% And this is the fact. 01:35:43.830 --> 01:35:45.210 align:middle line:90% I teach at university. 01:35:45.210 --> 01:35:50.190 align:middle line:84% And there is university student who really cannot express-- 01:35:50.190 --> 01:35:52.440 align:middle line:84% cannot present an essay in proper French. 01:35:52.440 --> 01:35:53.868 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yep, yep. 01:35:53.868 --> 01:35:55.410 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: It's also interesting on top 01:35:55.410 --> 01:36:01.230 align:middle line:84% of that about how they keep that structure in French Canada, 01:36:01.230 --> 01:36:05.430 align:middle line:84% despite even French Canadians being treated as lesser 01:36:05.430 --> 01:36:11.310 align:middle line:84% in the French eyes, because they call Canadian French disgusting 01:36:11.310 --> 01:36:13.380 align:middle line:84% French, like they call it lesser French. 01:36:13.380 --> 01:36:16.150 align:middle line:84% So it's funny how even in Canada, 01:36:16.150 --> 01:36:18.600 align:middle line:84% where it's like their French is deemed lesser, 01:36:18.600 --> 01:36:19.950 align:middle line:90% they still keep [INAUDIBLE]. 01:36:19.950 --> 01:36:22.242 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Yeah, because they have the English also, 01:36:22.242 --> 01:36:24.930 align:middle line:84% because they have the English they think is better. 01:36:24.930 --> 01:36:26.788 align:middle line:90% I mean-- 01:36:26.788 --> 01:36:29.080 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So this is really, really, really good. 01:36:29.080 --> 01:36:31.590 align:middle line:84% So we've had an amazing set of questions. 01:36:31.590 --> 01:36:34.850 align:middle line:84% And I wanted to follow up on Jazhara's question. 01:36:34.850 --> 01:36:38.840 align:middle line:84% And here I want to go back to the UNESCO issue, 01:36:38.840 --> 01:36:41.870 align:middle line:84% because we heard this very eloquent plea 01:36:41.870 --> 01:36:46.040 align:middle line:84% from Ambassadeur Dominique Dupuy asking UNESCO 01:36:46.040 --> 01:36:48.770 align:middle line:84% on what grounds are you classifying Creole 01:36:48.770 --> 01:36:50.138 align:middle line:90% languages as lesser languages? 01:36:50.138 --> 01:36:50.930 align:middle line:90% They are languages. 01:36:50.930 --> 01:36:52.310 align:middle line:90% That's it. 01:36:52.310 --> 01:36:55.100 align:middle line:84% But your work-- and one thing which I love about your work 01:36:55.100 --> 01:36:58.850 align:middle line:84% is that you show the beauty and power of Haitian Creole. 01:36:58.850 --> 01:37:02.450 align:middle line:84% You show the richness of the vocabulary 01:37:02.450 --> 01:37:05.180 align:middle line:84% and how the vocabulary can tell us so much about our history. 01:37:05.180 --> 01:37:08.473 align:middle line:84% And the fact that you put out so beautifully words like "ras," 01:37:08.473 --> 01:37:10.640 align:middle line:84% "abitan," "moun," "nèg," "blan," "blanch," "milat"-- 01:37:10.640 --> 01:37:16.570 align:middle line:90% 01:37:16.570 --> 01:37:20.230 align:middle line:84% that all these words, for them to have evolved 01:37:20.230 --> 01:37:22.070 align:middle line:84% that semantics-- in fact, that's yet 01:37:22.070 --> 01:37:23.870 align:middle line:84% another argument against the idea 01:37:23.870 --> 01:37:25.700 align:middle line:84% that Creoles evolved from Pidgin, 01:37:25.700 --> 01:37:29.600 align:middle line:84% because you see if Pidgin's supposed to be like a tabula 01:37:29.600 --> 01:37:33.950 align:middle line:84% rasa, like an empty void of language 01:37:33.950 --> 01:37:35.948 align:middle line:84% from which you create a new language. 01:37:35.948 --> 01:37:38.240 align:middle line:84% And your argument is that no, look at all this richness 01:37:38.240 --> 01:37:39.230 align:middle line:90% in the language. 01:37:39.230 --> 01:37:43.580 align:middle line:84% So I want to stress that, because often we still find 01:37:43.580 --> 01:37:45.885 align:middle line:84% in various circles the notion that Creoles 01:37:45.885 --> 01:37:46.760 align:middle line:90% evolved from Pidgins. 01:37:46.760 --> 01:37:50.510 align:middle line:84% And yet you've given us through history yet another set 01:37:50.510 --> 01:37:52.850 align:middle line:90% of arguments against that view. 01:37:52.850 --> 01:37:55.840 align:middle line:84% And one thing I wanted to ask you as well is-- 01:37:55.840 --> 01:38:00.850 align:middle line:84% so in your introduction to your lecture on Monday, 01:38:00.850 --> 01:38:05.890 align:middle line:84% you were introduced as a historical sociologist, right? 01:38:05.890 --> 01:38:09.040 align:middle line:84% But when I speak to you, I often speak to you as a linguist, 01:38:09.040 --> 01:38:09.730 align:middle line:90% you see? 01:38:09.730 --> 01:38:16.240 align:middle line:84% What you tell me about Kreyòl, about our national language, 01:38:16.240 --> 01:38:19.870 align:middle line:84% you share all this data that I as a linguist can so deeply 01:38:19.870 --> 01:38:21.880 align:middle line:90% appreciate, you see? 01:38:21.880 --> 01:38:24.070 align:middle line:84% So I want to ask you, so why are you 01:38:24.070 --> 01:38:27.340 align:middle line:84% being called a historical sociologist when 01:38:27.340 --> 01:38:31.120 align:middle line:84% in fact, so much of your work is linguistic? 01:38:31.120 --> 01:38:33.827 align:middle line:84% And here actually I'm playing devil's advocate, right? 01:38:33.827 --> 01:38:36.160 align:middle line:84% I don't want to say that you should be one or the other. 01:38:36.160 --> 01:38:40.870 align:middle line:84% I just I just want to hear you talk about the role 01:38:40.870 --> 01:38:44.500 align:middle line:84% that linguistics and language make it even more explicit how 01:38:44.500 --> 01:38:48.370 align:middle line:84% it plays into your work as a sociologist and as a historian, 01:38:48.370 --> 01:38:49.210 align:middle line:90% because I love it. 01:38:49.210 --> 01:38:51.700 align:middle line:84% And I think that in a way you give us 01:38:51.700 --> 01:38:54.850 align:middle line:84% a model of how the human sciences can really 01:38:54.850 --> 01:38:58.448 align:middle line:84% operate together to discover our humanity, our common humanity. 01:38:58.448 --> 01:39:00.490 align:middle line:84% So that's-- and so I want to praise you for that. 01:39:00.490 --> 01:39:03.700 align:middle line:84% But I want you to say something more about it. 01:39:03.700 --> 01:39:10.010 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Let me say that this idea come 01:39:10.010 --> 01:39:17.090 align:middle line:84% from the group of friends with whom I unite every year. 01:39:17.090 --> 01:39:20.810 align:middle line:84% The Maria Lugones Decolonial School, no? 01:39:20.810 --> 01:39:27.810 align:middle line:84% It's a summer school we have every year 01:39:27.810 --> 01:39:30.510 align:middle line:90% during three weeks of-- 01:39:30.510 --> 01:39:32.790 align:middle line:84% three weeks, no-- in Holland organized 01:39:32.790 --> 01:39:35.640 align:middle line:84% by the University of Utrecht and Duke 01:39:35.640 --> 01:39:40.560 align:middle line:84% University's Center with Walter Mignolo. 01:39:40.560 --> 01:39:43.350 align:middle line:84% And they do not believe in disciplines. 01:39:43.350 --> 01:39:46.470 align:middle line:84% This group is formed by philosophers, historians, 01:39:46.470 --> 01:39:51.330 align:middle line:84% economists, sociologists, artists, of performers, 01:39:51.330 --> 01:39:53.910 align:middle line:84% and all sorts of artists and we are thinking. 01:39:53.910 --> 01:39:57.110 align:middle line:90% And oh, I forget Catherine. 01:39:57.110 --> 01:40:00.900 align:middle line:84% She's a sociologist and activist. 01:40:00.900 --> 01:40:05.640 align:middle line:84% But anyway, and this group, no, they do not even 01:40:05.640 --> 01:40:06.990 align:middle line:90% speak of "university." 01:40:06.990 --> 01:40:09.330 align:middle line:90% They speak of "pluriversity." 01:40:09.330 --> 01:40:10.470 align:middle line:90% You know what I mean? 01:40:10.470 --> 01:40:14.250 align:middle line:84% I mean, this is-- we have to save our plurality. 01:40:14.250 --> 01:40:17.040 align:middle line:84% We have to save our diversity, because this 01:40:17.040 --> 01:40:20.130 align:middle line:84% is what I was saying, the "universality" 01:40:20.130 --> 01:40:22.890 align:middle line:84% that French and the capitalist system want, 01:40:22.890 --> 01:40:26.400 align:middle line:84% because they want one "universal" civilization, 01:40:26.400 --> 01:40:27.030 align:middle line:90% God knows what. 01:40:27.030 --> 01:40:30.570 align:middle line:84% No, no, no, no, we will probably have that "universal" thing. 01:40:30.570 --> 01:40:31.950 align:middle line:90% I won't be there to look at it. 01:40:31.950 --> 01:40:35.310 align:middle line:84% But when we all in our diversity we contribute, 01:40:35.310 --> 01:40:38.220 align:middle line:84% now we are negotiating maybe a "university." 01:40:38.220 --> 01:40:40.300 align:middle line:84% For the time being, it's "pluriversity." 01:40:40.300 --> 01:40:44.610 align:middle line:84% So therefore, you raise the question, 01:40:44.610 --> 01:40:48.270 align:middle line:84% how is Haiti so quote unquote "poor?" 01:40:48.270 --> 01:40:51.780 align:middle line:90% So I say, what is Haiti? 01:40:51.780 --> 01:40:55.270 align:middle line:84% Well, the Haitians-- what is a Haitian? 01:40:55.270 --> 01:40:56.940 align:middle line:84% For instance, De Vastey says a Haitian 01:40:56.940 --> 01:40:59.860 align:middle line:84% is anybody living in the country having no other place to live. 01:40:59.860 --> 01:41:03.570 align:middle line:84% So the Tainos are as Haitian as all of those are Haitians. 01:41:03.570 --> 01:41:06.180 align:middle line:84% OK, but if they came from Africa one 01:41:06.180 --> 01:41:09.720 align:middle line:84% by one, how come they become Haitians 01:41:09.720 --> 01:41:11.970 align:middle line:84% or whatever other countries you have, no? 01:41:11.970 --> 01:41:15.360 align:middle line:84% And you see what are the institutions and the process. 01:41:15.360 --> 01:41:17.940 align:middle line:84% And local history become the heart 01:41:17.940 --> 01:41:20.520 align:middle line:84% of the reflection, local history. 01:41:20.520 --> 01:41:22.830 align:middle line:84% I mean, by local history, it's not 01:41:22.830 --> 01:41:25.050 align:middle line:84% the local history you find in the archives, 01:41:25.050 --> 01:41:27.780 align:middle line:84% because in the archives you will find the local history of those 01:41:27.780 --> 01:41:29.700 align:middle line:90% who won the war. 01:41:29.700 --> 01:41:34.500 align:middle line:84% So you have to see you people, who is speaking, because you-- 01:41:34.500 --> 01:41:36.120 align:middle line:90% and to whom are you speaking? 01:41:36.120 --> 01:41:37.770 align:middle line:90% You are speaking to your people. 01:41:37.770 --> 01:41:39.810 align:middle line:84% You have to explain to them what is it 01:41:39.810 --> 01:41:41.470 align:middle line:90% that they have done themselves. 01:41:41.470 --> 01:41:46.320 align:middle line:84% This is why I cannot accept that the Caribbean will be British 01:41:46.320 --> 01:41:48.870 align:middle line:84% Caribbean, French Caribbean, Spanish Caribbean. 01:41:48.870 --> 01:41:51.360 align:middle line:84% Come on, who are in the Caribbean, therefore? 01:41:51.360 --> 01:41:53.340 align:middle line:90% I mean, are we British? 01:41:53.340 --> 01:41:54.270 align:middle line:90% Are we French? 01:41:54.270 --> 01:41:55.980 align:middle line:90% No, no, we are Caribbean. 01:41:55.980 --> 01:41:58.360 align:middle line:84% And we have made certain number of things. 01:41:58.360 --> 01:42:01.500 align:middle line:84% But not because we are Caribbean we are all similar. 01:42:01.500 --> 01:42:03.240 align:middle line:90% We have also a variety in that. 01:42:03.240 --> 01:42:06.360 align:middle line:84% And this is for instance, the real problem 01:42:06.360 --> 01:42:08.010 align:middle line:90% when they say we are Blacks. 01:42:08.010 --> 01:42:08.820 align:middle line:90% We are Blacks. 01:42:08.820 --> 01:42:12.030 align:middle line:84% OK, "Black" is an invention of the colonial world, 01:42:12.030 --> 01:42:13.500 align:middle line:90% of the modern colonial world. 01:42:13.500 --> 01:42:17.500 align:middle line:84% The modern colonial world wants all of us to be the same, 01:42:17.500 --> 01:42:19.660 align:middle line:90% so we can do whatever they want. 01:42:19.660 --> 01:42:24.360 align:middle line:84% So for instance, the richest Blacks among Blacks 01:42:24.360 --> 01:42:26.280 align:middle line:90% will teach the other Blacks. 01:42:26.280 --> 01:42:30.130 align:middle line:84% No, no, we all of us have our values. 01:42:30.130 --> 01:42:31.440 align:middle line:90% We all respect ourselves. 01:42:31.440 --> 01:42:33.075 align:middle line:90% And we want to listen to you. 01:42:33.075 --> 01:42:35.160 align:middle line:90% We want you to listen to us, no? 01:42:35.160 --> 01:42:37.877 align:middle line:84% And out of this variety of Blacks, 01:42:37.877 --> 01:42:39.210 align:middle line:90% if you are to call them Blacks-- 01:42:39.210 --> 01:42:41.700 align:middle line:84% I don't call them Black, but that's OK, 01:42:41.700 --> 01:42:42.870 align:middle line:90% et cetera, et cetera. 01:42:42.870 --> 01:42:48.470 align:middle line:84% And I think this is something you have while you conquering 01:42:48.470 --> 01:42:49.550 align:middle line:90% your sovereignty. 01:42:49.550 --> 01:42:53.060 align:middle line:84% For instance, as far as I'm concerned, Haiti's 1970-- 01:42:53.060 --> 01:42:58.310 align:middle line:84% 1791 was able to join together people 01:42:58.310 --> 01:43:02.780 align:middle line:84% from different nations of Africa and create Haiti. 01:43:02.780 --> 01:43:10.350 align:middle line:84% But when you reach for instance 2010, 2011 in the US, 01:43:10.350 --> 01:43:13.260 align:middle line:84% you see all the oppressed of the US come and say 01:43:13.260 --> 01:43:16.050 align:middle line:90% "Black lives matter." 01:43:16.050 --> 01:43:18.480 align:middle line:84% And when you look at those who are saying that, 01:43:18.480 --> 01:43:20.580 align:middle line:84% you have to make an effort to find all the Blacks. 01:43:20.580 --> 01:43:24.060 align:middle line:84% You find all the people that are the most exploited 01:43:24.060 --> 01:43:24.870 align:middle line:90% is the Black. 01:43:24.870 --> 01:43:26.820 align:middle line:84% But you find all sorts of Latins, 01:43:26.820 --> 01:43:29.760 align:middle line:84% all sorts of Amerindians, all sorts of whites 01:43:29.760 --> 01:43:30.930 align:middle line:90% who have been exploited. 01:43:30.930 --> 01:43:33.480 align:middle line:84% And they are "Black lives matter." 01:43:33.480 --> 01:43:38.580 align:middle line:84% And if this respect for the life of the oppressed 01:43:38.580 --> 01:43:40.980 align:middle line:84% become effective, if you can impose 01:43:40.980 --> 01:43:44.550 align:middle line:84% that on the dominant system, I think many things 01:43:44.550 --> 01:43:45.730 align:middle line:90% are going to change. 01:43:45.730 --> 01:43:47.580 align:middle line:84% In fact, what you have is the end 01:43:47.580 --> 01:43:53.810 align:middle line:84% of an era, an era that is the era where life does not matter, 01:43:53.810 --> 01:43:54.680 align:middle line:90% period. 01:43:54.680 --> 01:43:59.870 align:middle line:84% I mean, there is a wonderful movie that just come out, 01:43:59.870 --> 01:44:00.950 align:middle line:90% "Don't Look Up." 01:44:00.950 --> 01:44:03.380 align:middle line:84% I don't [INAUDIBLE]---- that's a wonderful-- 01:44:03.380 --> 01:44:06.620 align:middle line:84% life does not matter, simply not. 01:44:06.620 --> 01:44:08.310 align:middle line:90% They have to make more money. 01:44:08.310 --> 01:44:09.260 align:middle line:90% It's a nice movie. 01:44:09.260 --> 01:44:12.560 align:middle line:90% It's sad, really. 01:44:12.560 --> 01:44:14.850 align:middle line:90% It's sad, but it's comical. 01:44:14.850 --> 01:44:16.310 align:middle line:90% I mean, it's cynic-- 01:44:16.310 --> 01:44:19.527 align:middle line:84% I don't know more than sad, it's cynical, no more than-- 01:44:19.527 --> 01:44:20.360 align:middle line:90% you see what I mean? 01:44:20.360 --> 01:44:21.450 align:middle line:90% This is the point. 01:44:21.450 --> 01:44:23.540 align:middle line:84% We are saying "Black lives matter." 01:44:23.540 --> 01:44:27.290 align:middle line:84% We are saying life matters, period, the life of the Earth, 01:44:27.290 --> 01:44:28.430 align:middle line:90% the life of-- 01:44:28.430 --> 01:44:30.360 align:middle line:90% every life matters. 01:44:30.360 --> 01:44:32.720 align:middle line:84% And if you can reach that point, you 01:44:32.720 --> 01:44:38.300 align:middle line:84% stop that system defined as the producer of inequality. 01:44:38.300 --> 01:44:42.170 align:middle line:84% I mean, this is the point, because "Black" is simply 01:44:42.170 --> 01:44:43.580 align:middle line:90% an element of inequality. 01:44:43.580 --> 01:44:45.590 align:middle line:84% You can imagine that fellow made a mistake. 01:44:45.590 --> 01:44:47.690 align:middle line:84% And he called all those Indigenous people 01:44:47.690 --> 01:44:48.830 align:middle line:90% "all those Indians." 01:44:48.830 --> 01:44:50.750 align:middle line:90% But that's his mistake. 01:44:50.750 --> 01:44:52.730 align:middle line:84% Why should I carry that mistake today 01:44:52.730 --> 01:44:54.500 align:middle line:90% when I know it's a mistake? 01:44:54.500 --> 01:44:56.090 align:middle line:90% This is worse. 01:44:56.090 --> 01:44:58.160 align:middle line:90% This is the problem. 01:44:58.160 --> 01:45:00.980 align:middle line:84% In Trinidad we call East Indian etc. etc. 01:45:00.980 --> 01:45:03.290 align:middle line:84% Well, why should I say East Indian? 01:45:03.290 --> 01:45:06.200 align:middle line:84% And we are supposed to be West Indians, instead of mistakes, 01:45:06.200 --> 01:45:08.360 align:middle line:84% eh, because West Indian originally-- you 01:45:08.360 --> 01:45:14.180 align:middle line:84% know it ends, no, in the Philippines. 01:45:14.180 --> 01:45:17.630 align:middle line:84% Everything that was from the West was West Indians. 01:45:17.630 --> 01:45:20.570 align:middle line:84% From us, America, way down to Philippines, 01:45:20.570 --> 01:45:22.010 align:middle line:90% that was the West Indian. 01:45:22.010 --> 01:45:24.380 align:middle line:84% I mean, this mistake I don't have to carry it 01:45:24.380 --> 01:45:28.160 align:middle line:90% in the 21st century. 01:45:28.160 --> 01:45:31.640 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK, so it's 2:57. 01:45:31.640 --> 01:45:33.000 align:middle line:90% So we should think of closing. 01:45:33.000 --> 01:45:36.170 align:middle line:84% I see that Merelin-- so can you make it-- 01:45:36.170 --> 01:45:37.668 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: You have a question? 01:45:37.668 --> 01:45:38.210 align:middle line:90% STUDENT: Yes. 01:45:38.210 --> 01:45:40.220 align:middle line:84% So like this whole idea, it's like, how 01:45:40.220 --> 01:45:41.853 align:middle line:90% do we have this conversation-- 01:45:41.853 --> 01:45:44.270 align:middle line:84% how do we have this conversation outside of the classroom? 01:45:44.270 --> 01:45:46.650 align:middle line:84% And if Black and race is a social construct-- 01:45:46.650 --> 01:45:47.900 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: I don't get you. 01:45:47.900 --> 01:45:48.410 align:middle line:90% Come again. 01:45:48.410 --> 01:45:51.110 align:middle line:84% STUDENT: Oh, like how do we have these types of conversations 01:45:51.110 --> 01:45:53.670 align:middle line:84% outside of the classroom, because we are having it. 01:45:53.670 --> 01:45:55.790 align:middle line:84% And it's a difficult conversation. 01:45:55.790 --> 01:45:59.038 align:middle line:84% And also, like if "Black" and "race" are a social construct, 01:45:59.038 --> 01:46:00.830 align:middle line:84% then what are we supposed to identify with, 01:46:00.830 --> 01:46:03.830 align:middle line:84% especially like in a country where Americans, we 01:46:03.830 --> 01:46:05.220 align:middle line:90% like to categorize things? 01:46:05.220 --> 01:46:06.700 align:middle line:90% So it's like, what do we do? 01:46:06.700 --> 01:46:08.360 align:middle line:90% Like for me, I struggle. 01:46:08.360 --> 01:46:10.460 align:middle line:84% I struggle a lot to say what I am. 01:46:10.460 --> 01:46:11.480 align:middle line:90% Like, I am Dominican. 01:46:11.480 --> 01:46:12.380 align:middle line:90% I am Caribbean. 01:46:12.380 --> 01:46:15.410 align:middle line:84% But like in the US, they do focus a lot on race. 01:46:15.410 --> 01:46:17.600 align:middle line:84% So it's like, what are we supposed to-- 01:46:17.600 --> 01:46:19.250 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: No, I cannot tell you. 01:46:19.250 --> 01:46:23.120 align:middle line:84% What I can tell you is that it's a matter of local history. 01:46:23.120 --> 01:46:26.570 align:middle line:84% In Haiti, we end up creating the Haitians. 01:46:26.570 --> 01:46:29.360 align:middle line:84% In Jamaica, we end up creating the Jamaicans. 01:46:29.360 --> 01:46:32.600 align:middle line:84% In Haiti or in Jamaica or in any country of the Caribbean, 01:46:32.600 --> 01:46:36.230 align:middle line:90% Blacks are the majority, no? 01:46:36.230 --> 01:46:38.510 align:middle line:84% Then I will tell you about the Dominican [INAUDIBLE] 01:46:38.510 --> 01:46:40.370 align:middle line:84% is something that I am the only one 01:46:40.370 --> 01:46:42.980 align:middle line:84% to accept, not the Dominicans, not the Haitians. 01:46:42.980 --> 01:46:44.480 align:middle line:90% Make me remember that. 01:46:44.480 --> 01:46:48.170 align:middle line:90% The problem is local history. 01:46:48.170 --> 01:46:53.300 align:middle line:84% Blacks in the US are 1 out of 10. 01:46:53.300 --> 01:46:58.590 align:middle line:84% In Haiti we are 99 out of 100 or in most Caribbean countries. 01:46:58.590 --> 01:46:59.780 align:middle line:90% So Black is what exists. 01:46:59.780 --> 01:47:01.580 align:middle line:90% So you cannot say-- 01:47:01.580 --> 01:47:03.647 align:middle line:84% one day I told a friend in Haiti, you say, 01:47:03.647 --> 01:47:06.230 align:middle line:84% "Black is beautiful," you know what they're going to tell you? 01:47:06.230 --> 01:47:07.550 align:middle line:90% "Is there anything else?" 01:47:07.550 --> 01:47:10.070 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:47:10.070 --> 01:47:11.480 align:middle line:90% Because we are all Black. 01:47:11.480 --> 01:47:13.040 align:middle line:84% How do I need not to be beautiful? 01:47:13.040 --> 01:47:15.310 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] [LAUGHTER] 01:47:15.310 --> 01:47:17.427 align:middle line:90% 01:47:17.427 --> 01:47:19.760 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: It's to-- end of that term you have to-- 01:47:19.760 --> 01:47:21.135 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: You have to finish? 01:47:21.135 --> 01:47:23.010 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: --has to close, right, Tom? 01:47:23.010 --> 01:47:23.510 align:middle line:90% Yes. 01:47:23.510 --> 01:47:27.550 align:middle line:90% 01:47:27.550 --> 01:47:28.240 align:middle line:90% So-- 01:47:28.240 --> 01:47:30.100 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: No, I haven't finished me. 01:47:30.100 --> 01:47:31.540 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:47:31.540 --> 01:47:32.040 align:middle line:90% But 01:47:32.040 --> 01:47:33.240 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 01:47:33.240 --> 01:47:34.573 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK, so, so good. 01:47:34.573 --> 01:47:36.630 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: Let me try to do me. 01:47:36.630 --> 01:47:38.600 align:middle line:84% So I think this is where the local history. 01:47:38.600 --> 01:47:43.760 align:middle line:84% I can understand the US African-American ending up 01:47:43.760 --> 01:47:46.310 align:middle line:84% identifying himself as "Black," because this 01:47:46.310 --> 01:47:51.200 align:middle line:84% is what unites them, that held their local history. 01:47:51.200 --> 01:47:54.380 align:middle line:90% That is not our local history. 01:47:54.380 --> 01:47:56.430 align:middle line:84% And I can tell you, I suffer for that. 01:47:56.430 --> 01:48:00.170 align:middle line:84% But because I went one day and say something about Blacks. 01:48:00.170 --> 01:48:04.460 align:middle line:84% I say, well, in Haiti, Blacks, that's not an issue. 01:48:04.460 --> 01:48:06.440 align:middle line:90% Oh boy, imagine. 01:48:06.440 --> 01:48:08.120 align:middle line:90% OK, that's one thing. 01:48:08.120 --> 01:48:10.220 align:middle line:84% So the problem is to see how "Black" 01:48:10.220 --> 01:48:12.380 align:middle line:90% appears in a given context. 01:48:12.380 --> 01:48:17.450 align:middle line:84% Now, for my Dominican Republic problems-- 01:48:17.450 --> 01:48:19.790 align:middle line:84% the Dominican Republic say "Black-- that's in Haiti. 01:48:19.790 --> 01:48:20.780 align:middle line:90% I'm not Black. 01:48:20.780 --> 01:48:24.260 align:middle line:90% I'm a dark Indian, not a Black." 01:48:24.260 --> 01:48:27.920 align:middle line:84% Obviously this is scandalous for those 01:48:27.920 --> 01:48:31.310 align:middle line:84% who are not Dominican Republic, except Jean Casimir, because I 01:48:31.310 --> 01:48:35.840 align:middle line:84% say, listen, go to Dominica, the island of Dominica, 01:48:35.840 --> 01:48:41.240 align:middle line:84% an island which has received a large part of land as a reserve 01:48:41.240 --> 01:48:46.520 align:middle line:84% where the Amerindians or the Dominicans lives 01:48:46.520 --> 01:48:48.170 align:middle line:90% and they reproduce themselves. 01:48:48.170 --> 01:48:56.600 align:middle line:84% In their society since colonial time, men who make a kid with-- 01:48:56.600 --> 01:48:57.770 align:middle line:90% I mean, they are Indians. 01:48:57.770 --> 01:48:59.720 align:middle line:84% They are-- ah, not Tainos, Carib. 01:48:59.720 --> 01:49:09.550 align:middle line:84% Men who have an offspring with a Black woman, the kid 01:49:09.550 --> 01:49:12.910 align:middle line:90% is Amerindian he's carrying. 01:49:12.910 --> 01:49:19.040 align:middle line:84% Women of the Caribs who make a kid with a Black outside, 01:49:19.040 --> 01:49:21.510 align:middle line:90% the kid is Black. 01:49:21.510 --> 01:49:25.890 align:middle line:84% So you can imagine you cannot distinguish between Black and-- 01:49:25.890 --> 01:49:29.070 align:middle line:84% because if you living in the Carib among the Caribs, 01:49:29.070 --> 01:49:32.700 align:middle line:84% you're a Carib, and et cetera, et cetera. 01:49:32.700 --> 01:49:36.060 align:middle line:84% If you are in Dominican Republic, you are Ladino, 01:49:36.060 --> 01:49:39.600 align:middle line:84% or you are a slave bought by Christopher Columbus, 01:49:39.600 --> 01:49:42.600 align:middle line:84% and you get in marronage, you go and you 01:49:42.600 --> 01:49:46.116 align:middle line:90% are received in an Indian-- 01:49:46.116 --> 01:49:51.930 align:middle line:84% an Indian, ha, Taino community, you have a kid, 01:49:51.930 --> 01:49:54.060 align:middle line:90% the kid is going to be Black. 01:49:54.060 --> 01:49:55.710 align:middle line:90% He's to be Taino, period. 01:49:55.710 --> 01:49:58.630 align:middle line:84% He's not Black, no matter how the color is, 01:49:58.630 --> 01:49:59.830 align:middle line:90% and so on and so forth. 01:49:59.830 --> 01:50:04.140 align:middle line:84% Now if you are receiving Blacks in Haiti 01:50:04.140 --> 01:50:06.240 align:middle line:84% and they will come in the DR, they 01:50:06.240 --> 01:50:11.980 align:middle line:84% are Blacks, because they are not born in an Indian society. 01:50:11.980 --> 01:50:12.890 align:middle line:90% You see what I mean? 01:50:12.890 --> 01:50:14.665 align:middle line:84% So I find normal that the Indians 01:50:14.665 --> 01:50:15.790 align:middle line:90% say the Haitians are Black. 01:50:15.790 --> 01:50:18.280 align:middle line:90% They are not Black. 01:50:18.280 --> 01:50:21.640 align:middle line:84% They are Indians, dark Indian, but they are Indians, 01:50:21.640 --> 01:50:23.620 align:middle line:90% because this is the population. 01:50:23.620 --> 01:50:26.360 align:middle line:84% Now Christopher-- not Christopher Columbus. 01:50:26.360 --> 01:50:28.480 align:middle line:90% Ha, yeah, that's a good slip. 01:50:28.480 --> 01:50:32.200 align:middle line:84% Rafael Leonidas Trujillo-- now we'll use [LAUGHS] that 01:50:32.200 --> 01:50:37.090 align:middle line:84% as the slip-- will use that to make of the Black something 01:50:37.090 --> 01:50:40.480 align:middle line:84% different and to discriminate against the Haitians and also 01:50:40.480 --> 01:50:42.400 align:middle line:84% to discriminate against the Black-- 01:50:42.400 --> 01:50:42.790 align:middle line:90% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Dominicans. 01:50:42.790 --> 01:50:45.165 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: --Dominicans, because et cetera, et cetera. 01:50:45.165 --> 01:50:48.250 align:middle line:84% But I am not supposed to carry the sin of Chris-- 01:50:48.250 --> 01:50:50.710 align:middle line:84% Mr. Rafael Leonidas Trujillo, the same way 01:50:50.710 --> 01:50:56.500 align:middle line:84% I don't want to carry the sin of Columbus, no? 01:50:56.500 --> 01:51:00.370 align:middle line:84% So I have to acknowledge the normal Dominican is right. 01:51:00.370 --> 01:51:02.350 align:middle line:90% "Black" is Haitian. 01:51:02.350 --> 01:51:03.790 align:middle line:90% He is not that... well-- 01:51:03.790 --> 01:51:05.170 align:middle line:90% But nobody accept that. 01:51:05.170 --> 01:51:05.770 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 01:51:05.770 --> 01:51:07.270 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: But didn't you say-- 01:51:07.270 --> 01:51:09.400 align:middle line:84% was that you also may have mentioned, 01:51:09.400 --> 01:51:12.460 align:middle line:84% but it's a whole discussion that there's no time to get into, 01:51:12.460 --> 01:51:16.120 align:middle line:84% that in Haiti, there is colorism, right? 01:51:16.120 --> 01:51:17.560 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Obviously. 01:51:17.560 --> 01:51:18.490 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: That's mixed with class. 01:51:18.490 --> 01:51:20.615 align:middle line:84% So there's that famous saying of Jean-Jacques Accau 01:51:20.615 --> 01:51:24.790 align:middle line:84% that a rich black is a mulatto and a poor mulatto 01:51:24.790 --> 01:51:25.465 align:middle line:90% is black, right? 01:51:25.465 --> 01:51:28.090 align:middle line:84% JEAN CASIMIR: No, no, providing he knows how to read and write. 01:51:28.090 --> 01:51:29.980 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Exactly, exactly, 01:51:29.980 --> 01:51:31.060 align:middle line:90% so anyway, so that's a-- 01:51:31.060 --> 01:51:32.530 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: Whole other story. 01:51:32.530 --> 01:51:34.238 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: We have no time for that. 01:51:34.238 --> 01:51:37.180 align:middle line:84% So let's be extremely, extremely thankful 01:51:37.180 --> 01:51:39.640 align:middle line:84% and I'd like to give a big round of applause 01:51:39.640 --> 01:51:40.840 align:middle line:90% to Professor Jean Casimir. 01:51:40.840 --> 01:51:41.050 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 01:51:41.050 --> 01:51:41.670 align:middle line:90% JEAN CASIMIR: That was nice. 01:51:41.670 --> 01:51:42.290 align:middle line:90% That was nice. 01:51:42.290 --> 01:51:44.950 align:middle line:84% I applaud to you for your questions. 01:51:44.950 --> 01:51:47.650 align:middle line:90% It was nice to meet you. 01:51:47.650 --> 01:51:49.500 align:middle line:90% Thank you very much. 01:51:49.500 --> 01:51:55.000 align:middle line:90%