WEBVTT 00:00:06.070 --> 00:00:08.600 JOSE: A lot of the assumptions, like the emergence of Creole, 00:00:08.608 --> 00:00:11.177 have been in the last 200, 300-- 00:00:11.177 --> 00:00:12.112 I don't know how long. 00:00:17.480 --> 00:00:20.180 MICHEL DEGRAFF: 17th century, roughly, in Haiti. 00:00:20.186 --> 00:00:22.422 JOSE: Is there any other language 00:00:22.422 --> 00:00:29.396 that are not Creoles that we know developed in the last 500 00:00:29.396 --> 00:00:30.163 years? 00:00:30.163 --> 00:00:32.298 MICHEL DEGRAFF: Well, if what I'm saying is right-- 00:00:37.330 --> 00:00:39.130 English itself-- modern English-- 00:00:39.139 --> 00:00:41.174 has developed not that long ago. 00:00:41.174 --> 00:00:45.945 Because middle English was up to 14th, 15th, 16th century. 00:00:45.945 --> 00:00:49.616 English was developing in the 16th century, 17th century-- 00:00:49.616 --> 00:00:51.351 English the way we know it. 00:00:51.351 --> 00:00:55.955 So that variety of English is relatively much younger 00:00:55.955 --> 00:00:59.492 than what Chaucer spoke. 00:00:59.492 --> 00:01:04.096 So there is a notion of that fact 00:01:04.096 --> 00:01:07.233 that we call English, English, can be an illusion. 00:01:07.233 --> 00:01:09.936 Because there has been many English 00:01:09.936 --> 00:01:11.538 throughout the centuries. 00:01:11.538 --> 00:01:15.475 If you focus on English as a broader umbrella, then, 00:01:15.475 --> 00:01:16.342 of course, it's old. 00:01:16.342 --> 00:01:19.279 But if you focus on English as we speak it now, 00:01:19.279 --> 00:01:21.881 it's relatively recent. 00:01:21.881 --> 00:01:26.152 So even back might not make the right cut between, say-- 00:01:26.152 --> 00:01:28.788 and, actually, sign languages-- did you mention sign languages? 00:01:28.788 --> 00:01:29.756 JOSE: Yes. 00:01:29.756 --> 00:01:36.062 Because in some sense, maybe part of the bayous 00:01:36.062 --> 00:01:44.938 could be that even the first Haitian-- 00:01:44.938 --> 00:01:46.940 at some point, we are saying that Haitian Creole 00:01:46.940 --> 00:01:48.708 is a separate language from French. 00:01:48.708 --> 00:01:50.410 so at some point, there was a-- 00:01:50.410 --> 00:01:51.811 MICHEL DEGRAFF: There was a break. 00:01:51.811 --> 00:01:54.146 JOSE: Yeah, like the first instance 00:01:54.146 --> 00:01:56.049 that we consider this a different language 00:01:56.049 --> 00:01:57.517 happened fairly recently. 00:01:57.517 --> 00:01:59.185 MICHEL DEGRAFF: That's right. 00:01:59.185 --> 00:02:03.189 JOSE: So I was wondering if could that give more evidence 00:02:03.189 --> 00:02:06.559 that this bias could be racial? 00:02:06.559 --> 00:02:08.061 Is there any other language that we 00:02:08.061 --> 00:02:09.996 know has emerged fairly recently and we 00:02:09.996 --> 00:02:12.365 see how they treat that differently compared to Creole? 00:02:12.365 --> 00:02:14.300 MICHEL DEGRAFF: You mentioned Spanglish, right? 00:02:14.300 --> 00:02:16.870 One could say that Spanglish might be even younger, right? 00:02:16.870 --> 00:02:24.043 SPEAKER 1: It's a lot younger, maybe 30, 40 years. 00:02:27.040 --> 00:02:29.079 But the thing is, it's not considered a language. 00:02:29.082 --> 00:02:31.017 MICHEL DEGRAFF: Well, actually, it's changing. 00:02:31.017 --> 00:02:34.988 I heard recently that, at some universities 00:02:34.988 --> 00:02:36.156 on the west coast-- 00:02:36.156 --> 00:02:38.057 I was told that by Professor Spadofa. 00:02:40.690 --> 00:02:44.590 Me and Noam Chomsky were at an interview with Noam. 00:02:44.597 --> 00:02:47.100 And she gave us the news that these universities 00:02:47.100 --> 00:02:49.636 were going to start teaching Spanglish as a language. 00:02:49.636 --> 00:02:51.137 SPEAKER 1: You know which one? 00:02:51.137 --> 00:02:53.473 MICHEL DEGRAFF: I have to listen to the interview again. 00:02:53.473 --> 00:02:54.240 She did tell us. 00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:57.010 But I don't remember which one, but it's a first. 00:02:57.010 --> 00:02:59.612 It's the first in the history of Spanglish. 00:02:59.612 --> 00:03:02.482 Finally, there is on university that's 00:03:02.482 --> 00:03:06.920 agreed to teach Spanglish as a language. 00:03:06.920 --> 00:03:08.688 I think that's remarkable, right? 00:03:08.688 --> 00:03:09.956 SPEAKER 1: Yeah, it's awesome. 00:03:09.956 --> 00:03:13.626 But it's not what Jose is talking about, 00:03:13.626 --> 00:03:16.329 just because English and Spanish were 00:03:16.329 --> 00:03:18.498 somewhat prestigious languages in and of themselves, 00:03:18.498 --> 00:03:22.235 and the whole point of Creole is that it's not prestigious. 00:03:25.770 --> 00:03:26.800 JOSE: So I have to think. 00:03:26.806 --> 00:03:31.978 Because at the same time, I know there's 00:03:31.978 --> 00:03:34.079 a lot of people in Haiti who them themselves don't 00:03:34.079 --> 00:03:35.815 think Creole is a language. 00:03:35.815 --> 00:03:38.317 So maybe I'm being like, well, Spanglish is not a language. 00:03:41.579 --> 00:03:49.560 In some sense, it's because you know two languages. 00:03:49.562 --> 00:03:52.599 And you purposely mix them because it's convenient. 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:56.069 But I feel like nobody would say that is a-- 00:03:56.069 --> 00:03:57.670 MICHEL DEGRAFF: But actually, languages 00:03:57.670 --> 00:03:58.771 have emerged like that. 00:03:58.771 --> 00:04:01.975 In Canada, there is a language called Michif. 00:04:01.975 --> 00:04:08.581 Michif is also a mix of French and some Algonquin language. 00:04:08.581 --> 00:04:12.986 There is one in the Indies called Media Lengua. 00:04:12.986 --> 00:04:16.656 In fact, even the name tells you that it's 00:04:16.656 --> 00:04:18.156 a mix of this [INAUDIBLE]. 00:04:18.156 --> 00:04:19.459 It's called Media Lengua. 00:04:19.459 --> 00:04:20.860 What is Media Lengua? 00:04:20.860 --> 00:04:24.130 It's a mix between Spanish and Kichwa. 00:04:24.130 --> 00:04:26.132 You see? 00:04:26.132 --> 00:04:30.903 And Media Lengua is the language of the community. 00:04:30.903 --> 00:04:32.872 and actually, that case is very interesting. 00:04:32.872 --> 00:04:35.742 Because Media Lengua was created really mid-way. 00:04:35.742 --> 00:04:40.413 Because in the valley, you had the rich colonizers, 00:04:40.413 --> 00:04:41.714 the Spanish people. 00:04:41.714 --> 00:04:45.518 And in the top of the mountains, you had the Kichwa speakers. 00:04:45.518 --> 00:04:48.354 And then, in between, you had these people 00:04:48.354 --> 00:04:50.490 who were, in terms of the social class, 00:04:50.490 --> 00:04:54.761 in the midpoint between the rich Spaniards 00:04:54.761 --> 00:04:56.596 and the oppressed Kichwa speakers. 00:04:59.159 --> 00:05:01.730 And they developed Media Lengua as a way 00:05:01.734 --> 00:05:04.037 to show that they were different, 00:05:04.037 --> 00:05:06.706 that they were not exactly like the Kichwa speakers, 00:05:06.706 --> 00:05:10.376 but they were not at the level yet of the Spanish speakers. 00:05:10.376 --> 00:05:13.313 And they used that mixing. 00:05:13.313 --> 00:05:15.915 So at first, one could imagine that people would say, well, 00:05:15.915 --> 00:05:16.916 it's another language. 00:05:16.916 --> 00:05:21.921 It's just this random mix of Kichwa words and Spanish words. 00:05:21.921 --> 00:05:24.657 But now, Media Lengua is a language 00:05:24.657 --> 00:05:28.995 spoken by a community of people who, at first, were bilingual. 00:05:28.995 --> 00:05:34.367 But now their main language is Media Lengua. 00:05:34.367 --> 00:05:36.636 JOSE: When you combine languages, that's how it feels. 00:05:43.640 --> 00:05:45.340 I really only combine English and Spanish 00:05:45.345 --> 00:05:48.848 when I know the other person feels most comfortable speaking 00:05:48.848 --> 00:05:51.617 that. 00:05:51.617 --> 00:05:53.386 MICHEL DEGRAFF: I think, Ose, you'll 00:05:53.386 --> 00:05:56.022 be interested to read about the history of Media Lengua. 00:05:56.022 --> 00:05:57.590 Because I think what you're describing 00:05:57.590 --> 00:05:59.792 in terms of that feeling that's you know both, 00:05:59.792 --> 00:06:02.061 and that you're speaking to someone who can understand 00:06:02.061 --> 00:06:03.796 both, that's what's been described 00:06:03.796 --> 00:06:05.998 by people who've looked at-- 00:06:05.998 --> 00:06:08.067 So the key linguist here that you should look at, 00:06:08.067 --> 00:06:14.407 his name is Pieter Muysken. 00:06:18.070 --> 00:06:20.940 So look up Pieter Muysken. 00:06:20.947 --> 00:06:25.385 OK, so it was a beautiful work describing the origins, 00:06:25.385 --> 00:06:29.322 the structure of Media Lengua. 00:06:29.322 --> 00:06:32.125 And then what you have to do as you read that is ask yourself, 00:06:32.125 --> 00:06:36.162 is he describing what I feel now when I speak Spanglish? 00:06:36.162 --> 00:06:37.964 I don't know what the answer is. 00:06:37.964 --> 00:06:41.968 But that's what comes to my mind as you describe Spanglish. 00:06:41.968 --> 00:06:45.304 I think of Media Langua. 00:06:45.304 --> 00:06:47.106 JOSE: Most Mexicans don't identify too much 00:06:47.106 --> 00:06:50.476 with the use of Spanglish. 00:06:50.476 --> 00:06:53.112 MICHEL DEGRAFF: Well, that's exactly 00:06:53.112 --> 00:06:54.147 the way this was created. 00:06:54.147 --> 00:06:55.548 Because Media Langua, the speakers 00:06:55.548 --> 00:07:00.453 wanted to create a new identity for them. 00:07:00.453 --> 00:07:02.688 They didn't want to see themselves as if they 00:07:02.688 --> 00:07:07.527 were purely Kichwa speakers, nor were they Europeans. 00:07:07.527 --> 00:07:11.864 So they wanted to create this compromise between the two 00:07:11.864 --> 00:07:12.899 identities. 00:07:12.899 --> 00:07:20.173 And they use that mix of Kichwa and Spanish 00:07:20.173 --> 00:07:23.209 to create a new badge of identity. 00:07:23.209 --> 00:07:25.745 Now I don't know whether that's the same thing for Spanglish. 00:07:25.745 --> 00:07:29.048 But from what you describe, it sounds interestingly 00:07:29.048 --> 00:07:30.683 reminiscent to that story. 00:07:30.683 --> 00:07:32.452 STUDENT 2: You may have just touched on it, 00:07:32.452 --> 00:07:35.922 but I was going to ask if-- 00:07:35.922 --> 00:07:39.692 he was talking about how Mexican's don't 00:07:39.692 --> 00:07:43.229 identify with Spanglish, and they don't speak it. 00:07:43.229 --> 00:07:49.068 But is that how these speakers of French and Algonquin-- 00:07:49.068 --> 00:07:50.303 MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yeah, Michif. 00:07:50.303 --> 00:07:51.204 STUDENT 2: --is that how they felt when 00:07:51.204 --> 00:07:52.438 they developed that language? 00:07:52.438 --> 00:07:55.575 Because that could be part of the evolutionary process. 00:07:55.575 --> 00:07:58.678 He could be describing that it's [INAUDIBLE] own way of starting 00:07:58.678 --> 00:08:00.580 its own language. 00:08:00.580 --> 00:08:03.382 Eventually, the umbilical cord gets cut. 00:08:03.382 --> 00:08:05.384 MICHEL DEGRAFF: So I think the history of Michif 00:08:05.384 --> 00:08:08.421 has another twist, which is that there was a gender issue. 00:08:08.421 --> 00:08:13.226 I think there was an issue of there were Algonquin women 00:08:13.226 --> 00:08:16.929 meeting with French speakers. 00:08:16.929 --> 00:08:19.365 So there's another aspect that's not 00:08:19.365 --> 00:08:23.636 part of neither Spanglish nor Media Lengua, which 00:08:23.636 --> 00:08:30.042 is the gender part of it and with who spoke Algonquin, 00:08:30.042 --> 00:08:32.078 and who spoke French. 00:08:32.078 --> 00:08:35.014 And it was mostly women who spoke Algonquin. 00:08:37.909 --> 00:08:39.650 go ahead. 00:08:39.652 --> 00:08:42.488 STUDENT 3: I feel like there's certain dialects of Spanish 00:08:42.488 --> 00:08:45.591 that, in some ways, use Spanglish legitimately, 00:08:45.591 --> 00:08:46.993 like maybe that's how it would be. 00:08:46.993 --> 00:08:49.495 Like, "par-kare," which is not how you actually say to park 00:08:49.495 --> 00:08:50.296 the car. 00:08:50.296 --> 00:08:53.099 But that would be considered Spanglish, wouldn't it? 00:08:53.099 --> 00:08:55.935 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:08:57.630 --> 00:09:00.670 JOSE: For example, I'm from the border. 00:09:00.673 --> 00:09:03.142 I'm from [INAUDIBLE]. 00:09:03.142 --> 00:09:06.445 And we definitely use a lot of words that have 00:09:06.445 --> 00:09:10.550 English origin, like "troka." 00:09:10.550 --> 00:09:13.519 We use "troka" instead of [INAUDIBLE].. 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:17.123 I didn't know that was the origin until I was 17, 18. 00:09:17.123 --> 00:09:18.724 MICHEL DEGRAFF: So you were using troka 00:09:18.724 --> 00:09:20.192 without knowing that was was with-- 00:09:20.192 --> 00:09:20.960 JOSE: Yeah, yeah. 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:22.461 Because it doesn't feel like an English-- you're just-- 00:09:22.461 --> 00:09:23.029 MICHEL DEGRAFF: Troka. 00:09:23.029 --> 00:09:23.529 JOSE: Yeah. 00:09:23.529 --> 00:09:24.196 And do, OK. 00:09:24.196 --> 00:09:25.831 Of course it looks like a Spanish word. 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:30.100 It just feels like you're borrowing 00:09:30.102 --> 00:09:36.375 words more than something independent. 00:09:36.375 --> 00:09:38.344 I only really combine English and Spanish 00:09:38.344 --> 00:09:41.447 when I'm speaking with somebody who the bass line is English. 00:09:41.447 --> 00:09:45.151 But I have to alternate. 00:09:45.151 --> 00:09:45.718 I don't know. 00:09:45.718 --> 00:09:46.085 It doesn't feel like-- 00:09:46.085 --> 00:09:46.652 I don't know. 00:09:46.652 --> 00:09:47.053 MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK. 00:09:47.053 --> 00:09:49.055 So that could be an interesting research project 00:09:49.055 --> 00:09:51.824 because in this case, you would be your own subject. 00:09:51.824 --> 00:09:55.528 So I think that's a fascinating question that you could ask.