WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.487 align:middle line:90% 00:00:02.487 --> 00:00:04.279 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: There's benefit in honoring 00:00:04.279 --> 00:00:06.440 align:middle line:84% your native language and also your native culture 00:00:06.440 --> 00:00:08.605 align:middle line:84% and then you become a more joyful learner 00:00:08.605 --> 00:00:11.500 align:middle line:84% and then you have a better chance to succeed. 00:00:11.500 --> 00:00:13.496 align:middle line:90% SARAH HANSEN I'm Sarah Hansen. 00:00:13.496 --> 00:00:16.691 align:middle line:84% In this episode, our guest is Michel DeGraff. 00:00:16.691 --> 00:00:18.620 align:middle line:84% He's the co-founder and co-director 00:00:18.620 --> 00:00:20.812 align:middle line:84% of the MIT Haiti Initiative, which 00:00:20.812 --> 00:00:24.423 align:middle line:84% promotes the use of Haitian Creole in Haitian schools. 00:00:24.423 --> 00:00:29.168 align:middle line:84% He's also the instructor of the newly revised course 00:00:29.168 --> 00:00:33.790 align:middle line:84% on OCW, 24.908, Creole Languages and Caribbean Identities. 00:00:33.790 --> 00:00:36.543 align:middle line:84% We actually spoke with Michel back in season one 00:00:36.543 --> 00:00:38.379 align:middle line:84% and he talked about connecting language 00:00:38.379 --> 00:00:41.160 align:middle line:84% to issues of culture, identity, and power. 00:00:41.160 --> 00:00:44.340 align:middle line:84% In this episode, we're taking a deeper look 00:00:44.340 --> 00:00:47.398 align:middle line:84% at some of these themes and how he navigates them 00:00:47.398 --> 00:00:48.316 align:middle line:90% with his students. 00:00:48.316 --> 00:00:51.463 align:middle line:84% But for those unfamiliar with Michel's work and presence, 00:00:51.463 --> 00:00:54.155 align:middle line:84% let's start at the beginning: the origins 00:00:54.155 --> 00:00:56.309 align:middle line:90% of a linguistics professor. 00:00:56.309 --> 00:00:59.144 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: I really became a linguist by accident. 00:00:59.144 --> 00:01:01.777 align:middle line:84% My first career was as a computer scientist. 00:01:01.777 --> 00:01:06.047 align:middle line:84% And I got a wonderful job, which I'll never forget, 00:01:06.047 --> 00:01:09.850 align:middle line:84% at AT&T Bell Labs as an intern, as an undergraduate. 00:01:09.850 --> 00:01:12.330 align:middle line:84% And this is where for the first time 00:01:12.330 --> 00:01:15.374 align:middle line:84% I got to understand that language is really 00:01:15.374 --> 00:01:19.359 align:middle line:84% a system of computation where you connect sounds, 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:22.745 align:middle line:84% or in the case of sign languages, 00:01:22.745 --> 00:01:26.325 align:middle line:84% where you connect gestures with information, with meanings. 00:01:26.325 --> 00:01:30.539 align:middle line:84% And before I had no clue that that's what defined language. 00:01:30.539 --> 00:01:34.512 align:middle line:84% And before that, for the first 20 years of my life, 00:01:34.512 --> 00:01:38.134 align:middle line:84% I had never considered my native language Haitian Creole, which 00:01:38.134 --> 00:01:41.769 align:middle line:84% we call Kreyòl in Haiti, I never thought of it 00:01:41.769 --> 00:01:43.303 align:middle line:90% as a real language. 00:01:43.303 --> 00:01:46.852 align:middle line:84% I always thought that Kreyòl was broken French, 00:01:46.852 --> 00:01:49.382 align:middle line:84% was corrupted French, was bad French. 00:01:49.382 --> 00:01:51.880 align:middle line:84% That's what I was told as a child. 00:01:51.880 --> 00:01:54.494 align:middle line:84% So that moment at AT&T Bell Labs, 00:01:54.494 --> 00:01:59.350 align:middle line:84% it dawned on me that for the first 18 years of my education, 00:01:59.350 --> 00:02:00.578 align:middle line:90% I had been lied to. 00:02:00.578 --> 00:02:03.282 align:middle line:84% I had been lied to at home by my parents, who 00:02:03.282 --> 00:02:04.816 align:middle line:90% actually loved me very much. 00:02:04.816 --> 00:02:08.004 align:middle line:90% So it was a lie rooted in love. 00:02:08.004 --> 00:02:12.747 align:middle line:84% Then I was lied to by my teachers from age 3, 4 00:02:12.747 --> 00:02:13.886 align:middle line:90% to age 18. 00:02:13.886 --> 00:02:16.921 align:middle line:84% In fact, back in school, I wasn't allowed 00:02:16.921 --> 00:02:18.819 align:middle line:90% to speak my native language. 00:02:18.819 --> 00:02:21.540 align:middle line:90% I was punished for speaking it. 00:02:21.540 --> 00:02:25.644 align:middle line:84% So then at Bell Labs, it was a moment of epiphany. 00:02:25.644 --> 00:02:29.363 align:middle line:84% I actually remember when I realized that physically it was 00:02:29.363 --> 00:02:31.935 align:middle line:84% a disturbance to think, oh gosh, why 00:02:31.935 --> 00:02:35.610 align:middle line:84% is it that for all these years I never thought 00:02:35.610 --> 00:02:38.174 align:middle line:84% of my native language as a full language? 00:02:38.174 --> 00:02:41.441 align:middle line:84% And that's when I decided to learn more about linguistics, 00:02:41.441 --> 00:02:44.870 align:middle line:84% learn more about what makes a language a language. 00:02:44.870 --> 00:02:48.617 align:middle line:84% So back then at Bell Labs, I was actually writing programs 00:02:48.617 --> 00:02:50.754 align:middle line:84% for computer scientists and for linguists 00:02:50.754 --> 00:02:54.624 align:middle line:84% trying to create the first versions of things like Siri 00:02:54.624 --> 00:02:57.486 align:middle line:84% or Alexa, doing text to speech synthesis, 00:02:57.486 --> 00:03:01.190 align:middle line:84% and trying to understand natural language with computers. 00:03:01.190 --> 00:03:05.046 align:middle line:84% So it turned out it's the computers that taught me 00:03:05.046 --> 00:03:06.129 align:middle line:90% about language eventually. 00:03:06.129 --> 00:03:08.853 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Many of these themes 00:03:08.853 --> 00:03:10.669 align:middle line:84% of re-examining childhood experiences 00:03:10.669 --> 00:03:14.762 align:middle line:84% and the ways we learn about identity are woven 00:03:14.762 --> 00:03:18.407 align:middle line:84% into the course material of 24.908, Creole Languages 00:03:18.407 --> 00:03:19.681 align:middle line:90% and Caribbean Identities. 00:03:19.681 --> 00:03:23.303 align:middle line:84% In the course, Michel asks the students to examine themselves 00:03:23.303 --> 00:03:27.349 align:middle line:84% in the world around them in profound and meaningful ways. 00:03:27.349 --> 00:03:31.677 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: The key part that they learn to learn 00:03:31.677 --> 00:03:36.824 align:middle line:84% or they learn to uncover is the basic, fundamental role that 00:03:36.824 --> 00:03:41.876 align:middle line:84% language plays in how they form their own identity 00:03:41.876 --> 00:03:45.777 align:middle line:84% and how language structures social relations, the way 00:03:45.777 --> 00:03:49.769 align:middle line:84% they view others, and the way others view them. 00:03:49.769 --> 00:03:53.386 align:middle line:84% And what they learn really that I find to be fundamental 00:03:53.386 --> 00:03:57.381 align:middle line:84% is the hidden role that language often plays in the creation 00:03:57.381 --> 00:03:58.997 align:middle line:90% and transmission of power. 00:03:58.997 --> 00:04:03.240 align:middle line:84% Power in terms of opportunities to become successful students, 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:06.572 align:middle line:84% opportunities to get good jobs, opportunities 00:04:06.572 --> 00:04:09.160 align:middle line:90% to even find a mate. 00:04:09.160 --> 00:04:11.924 align:middle line:84% In all these relations, language plays 00:04:11.924 --> 00:04:15.610 align:middle line:84% such a key fundamental role that's often hidden. 00:04:15.610 --> 00:04:20.889 align:middle line:84% So what they learn to do is to make the hidden visible, 00:04:20.889 --> 00:04:21.769 align:middle line:90% you see? 00:04:21.769 --> 00:04:25.227 align:middle line:84% And for them to do that, they have 00:04:25.227 --> 00:04:28.253 align:middle line:84% to dig deep in their own biographies, 00:04:28.253 --> 00:04:30.617 align:middle line:84% in their own attitudes about people. 00:04:30.617 --> 00:04:33.107 align:middle line:84% Because whatever attitudes we have about language, 00:04:33.107 --> 00:04:35.110 align:middle line:90% it's not just about language. 00:04:35.110 --> 00:04:40.338 align:middle line:84% It's really about other human beings, other social groupings, 00:04:40.338 --> 00:04:43.880 align:middle line:84% other ethnicities, other even religions, other countries. 00:04:43.880 --> 00:04:46.619 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Michel asks his students 00:04:46.619 --> 00:04:50.271 align:middle line:84% to use language as a historical artifact, one 00:04:50.271 --> 00:04:52.716 align:middle line:84% that can challenge histories that have been told 00:04:52.716 --> 00:04:54.904 align:middle line:84% through colonial lenses and that can also 00:04:54.904 --> 00:04:58.800 align:middle line:84% reveal so much about the human beings held in that history. 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:02.511 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: In the case of colonized nations like Haiti, 00:05:02.511 --> 00:05:06.332 align:middle line:84% and the same is true for most of the Caribbean, 00:05:06.332 --> 00:05:09.592 align:middle line:84% it's true for Native Americans in the US, 00:05:09.592 --> 00:05:12.824 align:middle line:84% it's true for Palestinians, it's true for Africans 00:05:12.824 --> 00:05:16.805 align:middle line:84% in many parts of Africa, the way history is written, 00:05:16.805 --> 00:05:20.009 align:middle line:84% it's often written from the perspective of the colonizers. 00:05:20.009 --> 00:05:23.548 align:middle line:84% Even in a country like Haiti, we've 00:05:23.548 --> 00:05:27.593 align:middle line:84% been independent since 1804, but my history book 00:05:27.593 --> 00:05:29.110 align:middle line:90% was so colonial. 00:05:29.110 --> 00:05:31.345 align:middle line:84% So our independence was bragged about, 00:05:31.345 --> 00:05:35.177 align:middle line:84% was honored, but if you read between the lines even 00:05:35.177 --> 00:05:38.528 align:middle line:84% from the very preface, a Haitian child 00:05:38.528 --> 00:05:41.880 align:middle line:84% is taught to despise their own ancestors. 00:05:41.880 --> 00:05:45.334 align:middle line:84% Our history book teaches us to revere, 00:05:45.334 --> 00:05:48.295 align:middle line:84% to adore the colonizers, including someone 00:05:48.295 --> 00:05:51.489 align:middle line:84% like Bartolomé de las Casas, who was 00:05:51.489 --> 00:05:55.990 align:middle line:84% one of the very early architects of the slave trade. 00:05:55.990 --> 00:05:58.354 align:middle line:84% Our history book right in the preface 00:05:58.354 --> 00:06:02.069 align:middle line:84% teaches that las Casas is to be revered as a hero. 00:06:02.069 --> 00:06:04.979 align:middle line:84% I think this is perhaps the most striking example 00:06:04.979 --> 00:06:09.203 align:middle line:84% of how even an independent country like Haiti, our history 00:06:09.203 --> 00:06:12.060 align:middle line:84% books are so thoroughly colonial. 00:06:12.060 --> 00:06:16.271 align:middle line:84% But one way to get out of it is to look at language, 00:06:16.271 --> 00:06:18.539 align:middle line:84% in the case of Haiti, Haitian Creole, 00:06:18.539 --> 00:06:22.116 align:middle line:84% to understand how from the very beginning of Haiti's history, 00:06:22.116 --> 00:06:24.979 align:middle line:84% the Africans resisted this dehumanization. 00:06:24.979 --> 00:06:27.838 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: As you might expect, 00:06:27.838 --> 00:06:31.650 align:middle line:84% sometimes these conversations can be intense for students. 00:06:31.650 --> 00:06:35.249 align:middle line:84% I asked Michel about how we approach the subjects that 00:06:35.249 --> 00:06:38.204 align:middle line:84% directly deal with the cascading effects and trauma 00:06:38.204 --> 00:06:39.000 align:middle line:90% of colonialism. 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:43.064 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Each class, each session is really... 00:06:43.064 --> 00:06:48.128 align:middle line:84% is both reaffirming but it can make us feel so fragile. 00:06:48.128 --> 00:06:50.390 align:middle line:84% Because I went through this experience 00:06:50.390 --> 00:06:53.684 align:middle line:84% when I was in my early 20's realizing 00:06:53.684 --> 00:06:58.264 align:middle line:84% that how history, colonialism, actually even slavery 00:06:58.264 --> 00:07:04.183 align:middle line:84% have played such a major role in the way I look at myself. 00:07:04.183 --> 00:07:06.460 align:middle line:84% It's a very challenging position to be in. 00:07:06.460 --> 00:07:13.120 align:middle line:84% And I can tell you that in our class, there's been tears shed. 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:17.255 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Michel explained that one commonly difficult 00:07:17.255 --> 00:07:19.840 align:middle line:84% subject for students is examining 00:07:19.840 --> 00:07:21.560 align:middle line:90% the processes of assimilation. 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:25.860 align:middle line:84% So many of the stories students confront in this class 00:07:25.860 --> 00:07:28.925 align:middle line:84% involve exploring the trauma of assimilation, especially 00:07:28.925 --> 00:07:32.492 align:middle line:84% when it leads to devaluing or even abandoning 00:07:32.492 --> 00:07:34.000 align:middle line:90% their cultural heritage. 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:35.757 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Children of immigrants 00:07:35.757 --> 00:07:38.218 align:middle line:84% in the US because of social pressure, 00:07:38.218 --> 00:07:41.238 align:middle line:84% because of this push to assimilate, 00:07:41.238 --> 00:07:46.042 align:middle line:84% the parents really give up on the ancestral languages 00:07:46.042 --> 00:07:47.014 align:middle line:90% and cultures. 00:07:47.014 --> 00:07:48.514 align:middle line:84% And then when the students when they 00:07:48.514 --> 00:07:51.389 align:middle line:84% go to college, like in this case, when they take my course 00:07:51.389 --> 00:07:55.301 align:middle line:84% and then they understand the roots of this pressure 00:07:55.301 --> 00:07:58.382 align:middle line:84% to assimilate, then really see themselves as victims 00:07:58.382 --> 00:08:02.074 align:middle line:84% and they realize the loss, because there is so much loss 00:08:02.074 --> 00:08:06.729 align:middle line:84% in not having kept your ancestral language. 00:08:06.729 --> 00:08:09.262 align:middle line:84% And I myself as a parent, I know it 00:08:09.262 --> 00:08:11.233 align:middle line:84% because I know how difficult it is 00:08:11.233 --> 00:08:14.475 align:middle line:84% in the case of my own children to keep Haitian 00:08:14.475 --> 00:08:16.237 align:middle line:90% Creole alive in the household. 00:08:16.237 --> 00:08:18.283 align:middle line:84% Because again, even as a linguist, 00:08:18.283 --> 00:08:20.267 align:middle line:84% there is so much pressure that you 00:08:20.267 --> 00:08:23.439 align:middle line:84% have to struggle to make sure that your children can keep 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:25.919 align:middle line:84% speaking Kreyòl in a world where it's not 00:08:25.919 --> 00:08:27.159 align:middle line:90% viewed as being useful. 00:08:27.159 --> 00:08:31.615 align:middle line:84% So it takes lots of effort, and I'm a linguist. 00:08:31.615 --> 00:08:38.558 align:middle line:84% I know that speaking, honoring your native language in no way 00:08:38.558 --> 00:08:41.425 align:middle line:84% would prevent you from learning a second language 00:08:41.425 --> 00:08:43.980 align:middle line:84% or a third language or a fourth language. 00:08:43.980 --> 00:08:45.387 align:middle line:90% It's not either or. 00:08:45.387 --> 00:08:48.906 align:middle line:84% What's key is to recognize that your native language, because 00:08:48.906 --> 00:08:52.201 align:middle line:84% of Haiti, Haitian Creole, is a basic tool 00:08:52.201 --> 00:08:54.792 align:middle line:84% to build strong foundations to learn 00:08:54.792 --> 00:08:58.053 align:middle line:84% science and math and other types of knowledge, 00:08:58.053 --> 00:08:59.202 align:middle line:90% including second languages. 00:08:59.202 --> 00:09:04.076 align:middle line:84% So you can have it all once you realize that there is no need 00:09:04.076 --> 00:09:05.884 align:middle line:84% to exclude, on the contrary, there 00:09:05.884 --> 00:09:09.112 align:middle line:84% is benefit in honoring your native language to use it 00:09:09.112 --> 00:09:12.820 align:middle line:84% as a tool to learn other things like French, for example, 00:09:12.820 --> 00:09:13.950 align:middle line:90% you see? 00:09:13.950 --> 00:09:17.423 align:middle line:84% And we have data that confirm it, not just in Haiti, but also 00:09:17.423 --> 00:09:18.492 align:middle line:90% in Hawaii, in Africa. 00:09:18.492 --> 00:09:20.743 align:middle line:84% In fact, there are very robust data 00:09:20.743 --> 00:09:23.388 align:middle line:84% that show, for example, in Hawaii children who 00:09:23.388 --> 00:09:25.381 align:middle line:84% are immersed in Hawaiian actually 00:09:25.381 --> 00:09:28.489 align:middle line:84% succeed in becoming better speakers of English. 00:09:28.489 --> 00:09:29.377 align:middle line:90% You see? 00:09:29.377 --> 00:09:31.321 align:middle line:90% So it's not either or. 00:09:31.321 --> 00:09:33.157 align:middle line:84% On the contrary, there is benefit 00:09:33.157 --> 00:09:36.180 align:middle line:84% in honoring your native language and also your native culture, 00:09:36.180 --> 00:09:38.528 align:middle line:84% and then you become a more joyful learner 00:09:38.528 --> 00:09:41.290 align:middle line:84% and then you have a better chance to succeed. 00:09:41.290 --> 00:09:44.213 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: One of the unique aspects of this class 00:09:44.213 --> 00:09:46.779 align:middle line:84% is how it draws on students' personal experiences 00:09:46.779 --> 00:09:49.379 align:middle line:84% to teach about cultural phenomena 00:09:49.379 --> 00:09:53.019 align:middle line:84% like the origins of linguistic power structures. 00:09:53.019 --> 00:09:55.646 align:middle line:84% So to get some deeper insight about the class, 00:09:55.646 --> 00:09:57.690 align:middle line:84% we spoke with two of Michel's students. 00:09:57.690 --> 00:10:00.253 align:middle line:84% IANÁ FERGUSON: My name is Ianá Ferguson. 00:10:00.253 --> 00:10:03.183 align:middle line:84% I am currently a rising junior at MIT 00:10:03.183 --> 00:10:06.629 align:middle line:84% with an intended major in the physical sciences. 00:10:06.629 --> 00:10:13.590 align:middle line:84% And I was a student of 24.908 in the spring 2022 semester. 00:10:13.590 --> 00:10:17.453 align:middle line:84% Presently in my homeland, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, 00:10:17.453 --> 00:10:22.219 align:middle line:84% it is a 33 island nation in the Southern Caribbean. 00:10:22.219 --> 00:10:27.499 align:middle line:84% I enrolled in 24.908 as being a Caribbean national 00:10:27.499 --> 00:10:31.811 align:middle line:84% and having lived in the Caribbean all my life. 00:10:31.811 --> 00:10:35.214 align:middle line:84% I was very interested in an outside perspective 00:10:35.214 --> 00:10:38.278 align:middle line:84% of the Caribbean in terms of its identities 00:10:38.278 --> 00:10:39.710 align:middle line:90% and its Creole languages. 00:10:39.710 --> 00:10:42.990 align:middle line:84% The class really made me think very differently 00:10:42.990 --> 00:10:44.220 align:middle line:90% about the world. 00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:47.132 align:middle line:84% Every week someone in the class is 00:10:47.132 --> 00:10:50.151 align:middle line:84% in charge of leading a discussion based 00:10:50.151 --> 00:10:53.170 align:middle line:84% on the assigned reading for that week. 00:10:53.170 --> 00:10:57.588 align:middle line:84% And you had to connect your reading to your experience 00:10:57.588 --> 00:11:00.240 align:middle line:84% and expand on something that resonated 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:01.906 align:middle line:90% with you in the reading. 00:11:01.906 --> 00:11:04.906 align:middle line:84% So I like to say that we were presenting 00:11:04.906 --> 00:11:07.240 align:middle line:90% our world to each other. 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:12.149 align:middle line:84% So my difficulty was that I had to share my world with persons 00:11:12.149 --> 00:11:13.968 align:middle line:90% who have not experienced it. 00:11:13.968 --> 00:11:15.821 align:middle line:84% And rightly so, because each person 00:11:15.821 --> 00:11:17.983 align:middle line:84% has a different outlook on the world. 00:11:17.983 --> 00:11:20.660 align:middle line:84% So my running theme was always to make 00:11:20.660 --> 00:11:24.160 align:middle line:84% my classmates understand my world so that when we discuss 00:11:24.160 --> 00:11:26.273 align:middle line:84% things, they would be able to see 00:11:26.273 --> 00:11:29.382 align:middle line:84% why and how I said things or understood things the way 00:11:29.382 --> 00:11:30.230 align:middle line:90% that I did. 00:11:30.230 --> 00:11:33.939 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: So you wrote this really great article, 00:11:33.939 --> 00:11:36.409 align:middle line:84% "Linguistics and Economics in the Caribbean. 00:11:36.409 --> 00:11:37.637 align:middle line:90% Who Speaks Creole?" 00:11:37.637 --> 00:11:42.140 align:middle line:84% I'm wondering could you tell us what your article was about? 00:11:42.140 --> 00:11:44.863 align:middle line:84% IANÁ FERGUSON: The article entitled "Linguistics 00:11:44.863 --> 00:11:47.132 align:middle line:90% and Economics in the Caribbean. 00:11:47.132 --> 00:11:50.100 align:middle line:84% Who Speaks Creole?" examines the reasons 00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:53.190 align:middle line:84% why Creole languages have been devalued. 00:11:53.190 --> 00:11:57.610 align:middle line:84% And it investigates this from a socioeconomic perspective 00:11:57.610 --> 00:12:00.560 align:middle line:84% where persons who view themselves 00:12:00.560 --> 00:12:06.652 align:middle line:84% as upper class or wealthy tend to speak an acrolect, which 00:12:06.652 --> 00:12:11.889 align:middle line:84% is a variety of Creole closer to the colonizing nation's 00:12:11.889 --> 00:12:16.148 align:middle line:84% language, while those of lower socioeconomic status 00:12:16.148 --> 00:12:20.945 align:middle line:84% speak basilect, which is a variety of Creole 00:12:20.945 --> 00:12:24.380 align:middle line:84% furthest from the colonizing nation's language. 00:12:24.380 --> 00:12:28.278 align:middle line:84% Caribbean nationals perpetuate the disuse of Creole 00:12:28.278 --> 00:12:31.620 align:middle line:84% as we have been conditioned really 00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:34.468 align:middle line:84% since the period of slavery and taught 00:12:34.468 --> 00:12:37.723 align:middle line:84% that being able to speak a standard language 00:12:37.723 --> 00:12:41.390 align:middle line:84% affords or guarantees success and proves intelligence. 00:12:41.390 --> 00:12:45.242 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Not everyone goes from a course assignment 00:12:45.242 --> 00:12:47.382 align:middle line:90% to publishing for the public. 00:12:47.382 --> 00:12:50.860 align:middle line:84% So I'm curious how you made that transition. 00:12:50.860 --> 00:12:53.209 align:middle line:84% IANÁ FERGUSON: I think we would have 00:12:53.209 --> 00:12:55.223 align:middle line:84% to thank Professor DeGraff for that, 00:12:55.223 --> 00:12:58.821 align:middle line:84% because I wrote this piece with no intention of publishing it. 00:12:58.821 --> 00:13:02.060 align:middle line:84% For me it was just a subset of a project 00:13:02.060 --> 00:13:04.039 align:middle line:90% that I had been working on. 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:06.349 align:middle line:84% And I was just exploring the ideas 00:13:06.349 --> 00:13:08.859 align:middle line:84% and researching about linguistics and the Caribbean. 00:13:08.859 --> 00:13:12.279 align:middle line:84% But Professor DeGraff spoke to me about publishing it 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:15.320 align:middle line:84% and he gave me some time to think about it. 00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:19.603 align:middle line:84% The deciding factor was that I saw it as a way 00:13:19.603 --> 00:13:23.151 align:middle line:84% that Caribbean persons or even the world in general 00:13:23.151 --> 00:13:26.030 align:middle line:84% could be made more aware of themselves 00:13:26.030 --> 00:13:29.877 align:middle line:84% and this could have an impact for further generations. 00:13:29.877 --> 00:13:34.898 align:middle line:84% Overall, I want the article to encourage Caribbean persons 00:13:34.898 --> 00:13:38.646 align:middle line:84% to be proud of their Creole languages 00:13:38.646 --> 00:13:42.691 align:middle line:84% and I want to encourage them to be 00:13:42.691 --> 00:13:46.640 align:middle line:84% able to speak Creole and the standard language, 00:13:46.640 --> 00:13:49.926 align:middle line:84% as I opined that doing this gives one 00:13:49.926 --> 00:13:52.390 align:middle line:84% different ways of interpreting the world. 00:13:52.390 --> 00:13:56.625 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: The other student we spoke with got just as much 00:13:56.625 --> 00:14:00.070 align:middle line:84% out of Michel's class even though she grew up in a very 00:14:00.070 --> 00:14:01.270 align:middle line:90% different part of the world. 00:14:01.270 --> 00:14:04.016 align:middle line:84% VIVIEN SANSOUR: My name is Vivien Sansour 00:14:04.016 --> 00:14:06.370 align:middle line:90% and I was born in Jerusalem. 00:14:06.370 --> 00:14:09.955 align:middle line:84% I grew up in Palestine and spoke Arabic. 00:14:09.955 --> 00:14:11.970 align:middle line:90% That's my native language. 00:14:11.970 --> 00:14:17.574 align:middle line:84% I grew up in a small little village called Beit Jala. 00:14:17.574 --> 00:14:20.197 align:middle line:90% It's in the Bethlehem district. 00:14:20.197 --> 00:14:26.024 align:middle line:84% And for me, language could mean life or death at times. 00:14:26.024 --> 00:14:29.891 align:middle line:84% I grew up under Israeli military occupation. 00:14:29.891 --> 00:14:34.310 align:middle line:84% So if I was identified at a checkpoint 00:14:34.310 --> 00:14:38.093 align:middle line:84% and I didn't understand what the soldier said in Hebrew, 00:14:38.093 --> 00:14:44.389 align:middle line:84% if he said "come" and I left or if he said "go" and I came, 00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:48.125 align:middle line:84% it could mean literally the death of me. 00:14:48.125 --> 00:14:51.190 align:middle line:84% Many Palestinians have died at checkpoints. 00:14:51.190 --> 00:14:52.922 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Vivien shared how Michel 00:14:52.922 --> 00:14:56.100 align:middle line:84% was able to create a space that was safe for students 00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:58.973 align:middle line:84% to honestly share their personal experiences of their world 00:14:58.973 --> 00:15:03.491 align:middle line:84% and what that did for her as the only student in the class not 00:15:03.491 --> 00:15:04.470 align:middle line:90% of Caribbean heritage. 00:15:04.470 --> 00:15:08.311 align:middle line:84% VIVIEN SANSOUR: The first thing he did was actually 00:15:08.311 --> 00:15:10.446 align:middle line:90% bring himself to the table. 00:15:10.446 --> 00:15:15.150 align:middle line:84% And that in itself opened our hearts to see that, you know, 00:15:15.150 --> 00:15:19.370 align:middle line:84% whatever we bring to the table is going to be safe. 00:15:19.370 --> 00:15:21.270 align:middle line:84% When someone shares their vulnerability, 00:15:21.270 --> 00:15:25.070 align:middle line:84% it allows you to feel safe to do the same. 00:15:25.070 --> 00:15:28.459 align:middle line:84% And he offered that generosity not knowing who's in the class. 00:15:28.459 --> 00:15:35.786 align:middle line:84% And I think he engaged in a very gentle yet gradual process 00:15:35.786 --> 00:15:39.603 align:middle line:84% of us developing slowly trust with each other 00:15:39.603 --> 00:15:42.150 align:middle line:84% to the point where by the end of the class, 00:15:42.150 --> 00:15:46.263 align:middle line:84% like our presentations I feel were deeply personal and quite 00:15:46.263 --> 00:15:46.779 align:middle line:90% profound. 00:15:46.779 --> 00:15:50.388 align:middle line:84% I think we were able to understand 00:15:50.388 --> 00:15:53.332 align:middle line:84% our personal experiences within the context 00:15:53.332 --> 00:15:56.680 align:middle line:84% of a political structure in the world. 00:15:56.680 --> 00:16:00.184 align:middle line:84% I mean, one of Michel's powerful approaches 00:16:00.184 --> 00:16:04.690 align:middle line:84% is that while the class is about the Caribbean, 00:16:04.690 --> 00:16:09.701 align:middle line:84% he does a great job of weaving in how the Caribbean relates 00:16:09.701 --> 00:16:12.841 align:middle line:84% to other things and other places and what 00:16:12.841 --> 00:16:14.594 align:middle line:90% was happening in the world. 00:16:14.594 --> 00:16:18.357 align:middle line:84% And that big vision is I think urgent in our times. 00:16:18.357 --> 00:16:21.449 align:middle line:84% And that's part of why I connected so much to the class. 00:16:21.449 --> 00:16:23.763 align:middle line:84% He didn't think it was super strange 00:16:23.763 --> 00:16:27.294 align:middle line:84% that a Palestinian woman wants to learn about the Haitian 00:16:27.294 --> 00:16:27.849 align:middle line:90% Revolution. 00:16:27.849 --> 00:16:33.396 align:middle line:84% He found ways to weave it into my own experience. 00:16:33.396 --> 00:16:37.801 align:middle line:84% And it allowed him, I think, to learn about me. 00:16:37.801 --> 00:16:42.878 align:middle line:84% So I felt that his curiosity about who we are, not just me, 00:16:42.878 --> 00:16:45.910 align:middle line:84% I mean every single person in the class, 00:16:45.910 --> 00:16:50.531 align:middle line:84% allowed us to feel seen and to feel that who we are 00:16:50.531 --> 00:16:53.442 align:middle line:84% and how we see the world matters. 00:16:53.442 --> 00:16:56.353 align:middle line:84% And that is significant, because then you're 00:16:56.353 --> 00:16:58.712 align:middle line:84% motivated to actually discover and become 00:16:58.712 --> 00:17:02.211 align:middle line:84% more curious about the other rather than just dismiss 00:17:02.211 --> 00:17:04.720 align:middle line:84% other people's experience as something that you 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:05.780 align:middle line:90% can't relate to. 00:17:05.780 --> 00:17:07.943 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Each time you teach 00:17:07.943 --> 00:17:11.188 align:middle line:84% the course, you have a different group of students, 00:17:11.188 --> 00:17:14.580 align:middle line:84% it's almost impossible to predict how to make sure 00:17:14.580 --> 00:17:19.118 align:middle line:84% that each student is going to feel safe enough in the course. 00:17:19.118 --> 00:17:22.502 align:middle line:84% So I start with having the students fill out 00:17:22.502 --> 00:17:25.250 align:middle line:84% a linguistic autobiography for them to learn 00:17:25.250 --> 00:17:29.300 align:middle line:84% to reflect on how they were socialized into certain beliefs 00:17:29.300 --> 00:17:31.509 align:middle line:84% about what they speak, what their parents 00:17:31.509 --> 00:17:33.469 align:middle line:84% speak, what others in the community speak, 00:17:33.469 --> 00:17:36.613 align:middle line:84% for them to start becoming aware of the role 00:17:36.613 --> 00:17:38.917 align:middle line:84% that language plays in their socialization. 00:17:38.917 --> 00:17:41.217 align:middle line:84% And that's a very delicate exercise, 00:17:41.217 --> 00:17:43.895 align:middle line:84% because they have to start asking themselves 00:17:43.895 --> 00:17:46.630 align:middle line:84% questions about what they believe about themselves 00:17:46.630 --> 00:17:47.419 align:middle line:90% through language. 00:17:47.419 --> 00:17:49.616 align:middle line:84% I tell them about my own biography. 00:17:49.616 --> 00:17:53.070 align:middle line:84% I'm very honest about the fact that for a good chunk 00:17:53.070 --> 00:17:57.503 align:middle line:84% of my life, I was really in a state of mental slavery 00:17:57.503 --> 00:18:00.090 align:middle line:84% without being aware of it, you see. 00:18:00.090 --> 00:18:04.664 align:middle line:84% But then once I bring that up, some students feel freer 00:18:04.664 --> 00:18:07.925 align:middle line:84% to also describe their own experience having these 00:18:07.925 --> 00:18:10.990 align:middle line:84% attitudes that are very much prejudicial against certain 00:18:10.990 --> 00:18:13.542 align:middle line:84% varieties of languages, including sometimes their own 00:18:13.542 --> 00:18:14.594 align:middle line:90% or their parents'. 00:18:14.594 --> 00:18:18.369 align:middle line:84% But others I can see that they brace themselves, you know. 00:18:18.369 --> 00:18:21.773 align:middle line:84% Some of them do not feel safe enough to open up 00:18:21.773 --> 00:18:23.940 align:middle line:84% and to share these kind of experiences. 00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:28.260 align:middle line:84% And I tell them, look, when you present in this class, 00:18:28.260 --> 00:18:31.875 align:middle line:84% I don't want you to just summarize the readings. 00:18:31.875 --> 00:18:35.337 align:middle line:84% You have to take the readings and see 00:18:35.337 --> 00:18:38.799 align:middle line:84% how they apply to you, to your community, 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:39.964 align:middle line:90% to sometimes your parents. 00:18:39.964 --> 00:18:42.294 align:middle line:84% If their parents grew up in the Caribbean 00:18:42.294 --> 00:18:46.229 align:middle line:84% or grew up, say, elsewhere where there was strict language 00:18:46.229 --> 00:18:49.460 align:middle line:84% hierarchies, you want to apply those readings 00:18:49.460 --> 00:18:50.880 align:middle line:90% to those familiar cases. 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.785 align:middle line:84% And some of them are comfortable doing it after a bit. 00:18:54.785 --> 00:18:57.299 align:middle line:84% But you can see that others resist it throughout. 00:18:57.299 --> 00:19:01.440 align:middle line:84% And I think it's because it involves certain skills that I 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.632 align:middle line:84% might not have having to do with, say, psychotherapy. 00:19:04.632 --> 00:19:08.049 align:middle line:84% Because some of it is really getting deep into the ways 00:19:08.049 --> 00:19:11.447 align:middle line:84% you are made to think of yourself as human being. 00:19:11.447 --> 00:19:13.505 align:middle line:90% So that can be very challenging. 00:19:13.505 --> 00:19:16.505 align:middle line:84% But what I find is that in many cases, actually 00:19:16.505 --> 00:19:19.110 align:middle line:84% maybe in most cases, there's a sense of liberation. 00:19:19.110 --> 00:19:21.523 align:middle line:84% It's very cathartic to become aware 00:19:21.523 --> 00:19:24.340 align:middle line:84% of these patterns in your own life. 00:19:24.340 --> 00:19:26.817 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Michel shared with me 00:19:26.817 --> 00:19:28.881 align:middle line:84% how cultural conceptions about Haiti 00:19:28.881 --> 00:19:32.310 align:middle line:84% are deeply fraught due in part to the way its history has 00:19:32.310 --> 00:19:32.810 align:middle line:90% been told. 00:19:32.810 --> 00:19:34.781 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: So the New York Times. 00:19:34.781 --> 00:19:36.471 align:middle line:90% I don't know if you've seen it. 00:19:36.471 --> 00:19:39.020 align:middle line:84% They had a recent series that came out, 00:19:39.020 --> 00:19:41.680 align:middle line:84% and the articles were published in English 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:47.230 align:middle line:84% and for the very first time for the New York Times in Haitian 00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:49.638 align:middle line:90% Creole and also in French. 00:19:49.638 --> 00:19:53.010 align:middle line:84% And the article is about the ransom 00:19:53.010 --> 00:19:57.567 align:middle line:84% that the French forced on Haiti for France to recognize 00:19:57.567 --> 00:19:58.478 align:middle line:90% Haiti's independence. 00:19:58.478 --> 00:20:00.759 align:middle line:90% That was back in 1825. 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:04.418 align:middle line:84% The French engineered this really a double debt. 00:20:04.418 --> 00:20:07.941 align:middle line:84% They imposed a ransom of 150 million francs. 00:20:07.941 --> 00:20:11.153 align:middle line:84% So they brought these boats on the coast of Haiti. 00:20:11.153 --> 00:20:14.195 align:middle line:84% They said, we're going to bomb you out 00:20:14.195 --> 00:20:18.500 align:middle line:84% if you don't agree to paying back this amount. 00:20:18.500 --> 00:20:22.379 align:middle line:84% Haiti had to pay to former slave holders 00:20:22.379 --> 00:20:26.919 align:middle line:84% for the loss of their property because of Haiti 00:20:26.919 --> 00:20:27.929 align:middle line:90% becoming independent. 00:20:27.929 --> 00:20:32.303 align:middle line:84% This is the only time in the history of the world 00:20:32.303 --> 00:20:34.690 align:middle line:84% that a nation that became independent 00:20:34.690 --> 00:20:37.190 align:middle line:84% after winning the war for their independence, 00:20:37.190 --> 00:20:39.690 align:middle line:84% after freeing themselves had to pay quote 00:20:39.690 --> 00:20:42.933 align:middle line:84% unquote "reparations" to the slave holders 00:20:42.933 --> 00:20:46.177 align:middle line:90% who were defeated by the war. 00:20:46.177 --> 00:20:49.599 align:middle line:84% And that amount in today's dollars 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.599 align:middle line:90% is worth $21 billion plus. 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:56.200 align:middle line:84% And economists have done various simulations 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.832 align:middle line:84% to show that with that so called "debt" that Haiti had to pay, 00:20:59.832 --> 00:21:05.200 align:middle line:84% Haiti would have never been able to develop as a normal nation. 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:08.731 align:middle line:84% I always teach about that ransom in my course. 00:21:08.731 --> 00:21:11.477 align:middle line:84% I've been teaching it for decades now. 00:21:11.477 --> 00:21:12.716 align:middle line:90% So I knew about this. 00:21:12.716 --> 00:21:15.466 align:middle line:84% But what the New York Times did was to document it very closely 00:21:15.466 --> 00:21:18.455 align:middle line:84% in terms of how much exactly Haiti paid to the French 00:21:18.455 --> 00:21:19.880 align:middle line:90% and where that money goes. 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:23.127 align:middle line:84% And then of course, the US in 1915 00:21:23.127 --> 00:21:27.869 align:middle line:84% also came to Haiti and further ravaged Haitian finances 00:21:27.869 --> 00:21:30.586 align:middle line:84% by basically stealing money from Haitian banks. 00:21:30.586 --> 00:21:32.290 align:middle line:90% So it's a really ugly story. 00:21:32.290 --> 00:21:37.011 align:middle line:84% But one major gap in the New York Times story 00:21:37.011 --> 00:21:41.220 align:middle line:84% is the failure to analyze the cultural and intellectual 00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:42.948 align:middle line:90% aspect of the ransom. 00:21:42.948 --> 00:21:47.700 align:middle line:84% So in fact, there's another ransom that Haiti had to pay. 00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:50.107 align:middle line:84% That's the cultural linguistic ransom. 00:21:50.107 --> 00:21:53.958 align:middle line:84% Because as the French imposed this quote unquote 00:21:53.958 --> 00:21:56.521 align:middle line:84% "debt" on Haiti, they also forced 00:21:56.521 --> 00:21:59.435 align:middle line:84% Haitians to adopt a system of education 00:21:59.435 --> 00:22:01.628 align:middle line:90% based on the French language. 00:22:01.628 --> 00:22:06.380 align:middle line:84% So in 1860, there was a famous contract signed 00:22:06.380 --> 00:22:09.549 align:middle line:84% that forced Haiti to accept teachers 00:22:09.549 --> 00:22:11.146 align:middle line:90% from French Catholic orders. 00:22:11.146 --> 00:22:13.543 align:middle line:84% And those teachers, the mission was 00:22:13.543 --> 00:22:17.540 align:middle line:84% to impose French and French values on the Haitian school 00:22:17.540 --> 00:22:18.040 align:middle line:90% system. 00:22:18.040 --> 00:22:21.866 align:middle line:84% My history book is a result of this agreement with the French, 00:22:21.866 --> 00:22:22.503 align:middle line:90% you see? 00:22:22.503 --> 00:22:26.093 align:middle line:84% So Haiti has also been held ransom through language. 00:22:26.093 --> 00:22:29.334 align:middle line:84% And this is another factor that explains 00:22:29.334 --> 00:22:31.575 align:middle line:84% why Haiti has been so impoverished 00:22:31.575 --> 00:22:33.877 align:middle line:84% from the very beginning of its history. 00:22:33.877 --> 00:22:37.320 align:middle line:84% This role can be so hidden and so invisible 00:22:37.320 --> 00:22:42.710 align:middle line:84% that even a very detailed account of the French in Haiti 00:22:42.710 --> 00:22:47.330 align:middle line:84% still fails to analyze that aspect of neocolonialism. 00:22:47.330 --> 00:22:49.885 align:middle line:84% So let's stop saying that, quote unquote "Haiti 00:22:49.885 --> 00:22:52.440 align:middle line:84% is the poorest country of the Western hemisphere." 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.994 align:middle line:84% Instead let's understand why it's so poor. 00:22:54.994 --> 00:22:57.549 align:middle line:84% Let's understand the roots of Haiti's misery. 00:22:57.549 --> 00:23:01.510 align:middle line:84% And the roots of Haiti's misery is in the ways 00:23:01.510 --> 00:23:05.346 align:middle line:84% that France and the US have ravaged Haiti's finances 00:23:05.346 --> 00:23:07.350 align:middle line:90% in abominable ways. 00:23:07.350 --> 00:23:09.173 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Since recording this, 00:23:09.173 --> 00:23:12.820 align:middle line:84% Michel has published an essay in the New York Times 00:23:12.820 --> 00:23:13.781 align:middle line:90% addressing this gap. 00:23:13.781 --> 00:23:17.307 align:middle line:84% We'll put a link to his essay in the show notes. 00:23:17.307 --> 00:23:19.368 align:middle line:84% Before we end the episode, Michel 00:23:19.368 --> 00:23:22.740 align:middle line:84% had something he wanted to share in Haitian Creole. 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:24.782 align:middle line:84% MICHEL DEGRAFF: Just to give the English speakers 00:23:24.782 --> 00:23:27.172 align:middle line:84% a sense of what I mean to say, I mean 00:23:27.172 --> 00:23:31.738 align:middle line:84% to actually really riff on the theme of Black Lives Matter. 00:23:31.738 --> 00:23:36.239 align:middle line:84% If Black Lives Matter, then our languages as Black people 00:23:36.239 --> 00:23:37.120 align:middle line:90% also matter. 00:23:37.120 --> 00:23:41.412 align:middle line:84% Donk, zanmi konpatriyòt mwen yo, Yon bagay ki vreman vreman 00:23:41.412 --> 00:23:46.775 align:middle line:84% enpòtan pou n konprann: fò n konprann orijin prejije kont 00:23:46.775 --> 00:23:48.373 align:middle line:90% lang kreyòl la. 00:23:48.373 --> 00:23:53.790 align:middle line:84% Men, fòk nou sonje Dessalines te di a klè tout moun se moun. 00:23:53.790 --> 00:23:59.110 align:middle line:84% E li te konnen tou, si tout moun se moun, tout lang se lang. 00:23:59.110 --> 00:24:01.669 align:middle line:90% E lang kreyòl la se lang tou. 00:24:01.669 --> 00:24:04.960 align:middle line:84% Se pou sa li te di, depi anvan 1804, 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:09.726 align:middle line:84% fòk nou pale lang a nou, nou pa bezwen tout tan ap pale 00:24:09.726 --> 00:24:10.460 align:middle line:90% lang lèzòt. 00:24:10.460 --> 00:24:15.944 align:middle line:84% Donk, fòk nou sonje, si pa te gen kreyòl la kòm lang, nou pa 00:24:15.944 --> 00:24:20.342 align:middle line:84% te janm ka reyisi fè revolisyon sa a ki te ban nou 00:24:20.342 --> 00:24:21.805 align:middle line:90% yon Ayiti endepandan. 00:24:21.805 --> 00:24:24.730 align:middle line:84% Se kreyòl la ki te lang revolisyon an. 00:24:24.730 --> 00:24:27.660 align:middle line:84% Ki fè, jounen jodi a, fòk nou sèvi 00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:30.590 align:middle line:84% ak lang kreyòl la tou kòm lang ansèyman. 00:24:30.590 --> 00:24:37.655 align:middle line:84% Se lang sa a k ap pèmèt tout ti moun nan peyi a rive jwenn bon 00:24:37.655 --> 00:24:42.780 align:middle line:90% jan konesans kòm sa dwa. 00:24:42.780 --> 00:24:45.565 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: If you're interested in teaching 00:24:45.565 --> 00:24:50.342 align:middle line:84% or learning with materials from the updated version of 24.908 00:24:50.342 --> 00:24:53.663 align:middle line:84% Creole Languages and Caribbean Identities, 00:24:53.663 --> 00:24:57.649 align:middle line:84% please visit our website at ocw.mit.edu. 00:24:57.649 --> 00:24:59.978 align:middle line:84% You'll find all the materials there. 00:24:59.978 --> 00:25:02.695 align:middle line:84% And as always, they're free and open. 00:25:02.695 --> 00:25:05.533 align:middle line:84% You can help others find the materials too 00:25:05.533 --> 00:25:08.211 align:middle line:84% by subscribing to the podcast and leaving us 00:25:08.211 --> 00:25:09.550 align:middle line:90% a rating & review. 00:25:09.550 --> 00:25:11.507 align:middle line:84% If you enjoyed this episode, you might also 00:25:11.507 --> 00:25:15.067 align:middle line:84% want to check out our season one episode with Michel, Unpacking 00:25:15.067 --> 00:25:18.460 align:middle line:84% Misconceptions About Language and Identities. 00:25:18.460 --> 00:25:21.370 align:middle line:90% Thank you so much for listening. 00:25:21.370 --> 00:25:25.250 align:middle line:84% Until next time, signing off from Cambridge, Massachusetts, 00:25:25.250 --> 00:25:29.832 align:middle line:84% I'm your host Sarah Hansen from MIT OpenCourseWare. 00:25:29.832 --> 00:25:34.088 align:middle line:84% MIT Chalk Radio's producers include myself, Brett Paci, 00:25:34.088 --> 00:25:35.316 align:middle line:90% and Dave Lishansky. 00:25:35.316 --> 00:25:39.820 align:middle line:84% The show notes for this episode were written by Peter Chipman. 00:25:39.820 --> 00:25:43.683 align:middle line:84% Peter also built the updated course on our site.