WEBVTT 00:00:05.660 --> 00:00:08.090 SARAH HANSEN: So how did you become interested 00:00:08.090 --> 00:00:10.228 in computation structures? 00:00:10.228 --> 00:00:12.020 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Well, in the early '70s 00:00:12.020 --> 00:00:15.470 I was a college student trying to earn my way through college. 00:00:15.470 --> 00:00:19.550 And so I was the computer operator on the third shift 00:00:19.550 --> 00:00:21.200 for the campus computer. 00:00:21.200 --> 00:00:24.150 That was in the era in which you could only afford one. 00:00:24.150 --> 00:00:26.960 And since watching the blinking lights was boring, 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:30.530 I pulled out the schematics for the computer I 00:00:30.530 --> 00:00:34.010 was running for the university. 00:00:34.010 --> 00:00:37.880 And I started trying to figure out how the computer worked. 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:41.370 Ever since then, it's been sort of a lifelong interest 00:00:41.370 --> 00:00:43.820 in figuring out, how do they actually 00:00:43.820 --> 00:00:46.220 put together these components to make a machine that 00:00:46.220 --> 00:00:48.620 can do computation? 00:00:48.620 --> 00:00:50.060 SARAH HANSEN: And that interest is 00:00:50.060 --> 00:00:52.730 coupled with your interest in teaching and learning, 00:00:52.730 --> 00:00:56.145 and especially online education. 00:00:56.145 --> 00:00:57.770 Could you talk a little bit about where 00:00:57.770 --> 00:01:00.020 that interest comes from? 00:01:00.020 --> 00:01:04.970 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Well, I was always fascinated 00:01:04.970 --> 00:01:09.650 and very motivated by the great teachers I could listen to. 00:01:09.650 --> 00:01:12.440 And so everybody picks a model when they're 00:01:12.440 --> 00:01:14.150 a teenager or a young adult. They say, 00:01:14.150 --> 00:01:15.710 I want to be like so-and-so. 00:01:15.710 --> 00:01:17.270 Well, the so-and-sos I liked to pick 00:01:17.270 --> 00:01:19.280 were the excellent teachers I had. 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:22.820 So I said, I'm going to try to be the best teacher I can. 00:01:22.820 --> 00:01:25.670 There's something very satisfying about teaching 00:01:25.670 --> 00:01:28.160 students and having them nod and suddenly get it. 00:01:28.160 --> 00:01:35.940 So it's been sort of a very fulfilling experience to teach. 00:01:35.940 --> 00:01:38.270 And so that's sort of a virtuous cycle, right? 00:01:38.270 --> 00:01:40.580 You get good vibes from teaching. 00:01:40.580 --> 00:01:42.290 And then you do it better next year. 00:01:42.290 --> 00:01:43.340 And you get better vibes. 00:01:43.340 --> 00:01:46.370 And so for 40 years, that's been a great-- 00:01:46.370 --> 00:01:48.078 it's been great. 00:01:48.078 --> 00:01:50.120 SARAH HANSEN: What kind of background experiences 00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:52.700 do the students bring related to computation structures? 00:01:52.700 --> 00:01:53.920 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: It's all over the map. 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:54.890 It's all over the map. 00:01:54.890 --> 00:01:59.390 So some of them will come having programmed computers 00:01:59.390 --> 00:02:01.730 for a long time, and maybe even know a little bit 00:02:01.730 --> 00:02:05.030 about how the computers are structured on the insides. 00:02:05.030 --> 00:02:07.220 Other people have not done beans. 00:02:07.220 --> 00:02:10.070 They're just-- I wanted to take a course. 00:02:10.070 --> 00:02:13.130 I've used computers, sort of browsers, 00:02:13.130 --> 00:02:14.750 laptops, email, sort of thing. 00:02:14.750 --> 00:02:20.960 But they have no idea about the OS or the actual hardware 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:21.950 inside. 00:02:21.950 --> 00:02:25.670 And so they come with interest, but no background at all. 00:02:25.670 --> 00:02:29.120 SARAH HANSEN: So how do you structure a course 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:32.300 to meet the needs of people with diverse backgrounds like that? 00:02:32.300 --> 00:02:33.383 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Right. 00:02:33.383 --> 00:02:40.100 So to handle really diverse backgrounds, 00:02:40.100 --> 00:02:42.830 you have to have a huge range of materials. 00:02:42.830 --> 00:02:44.800 So you need something that somebody who just-- 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:46.370 I need to start at the beginning. 00:02:46.370 --> 00:02:48.410 You need a beginning for them to start at. 00:02:48.410 --> 00:02:50.823 And for somebody who's sort of past the first half 00:02:50.823 --> 00:02:52.740 of your material, you need a second half which 00:02:52.740 --> 00:02:54.590 will engage their interests. 00:02:54.590 --> 00:02:56.760 So I create a huge-- 00:02:56.760 --> 00:02:58.040 I think of it as a buffet. 00:02:58.040 --> 00:02:59.590 There's lots of dishes. 00:02:59.590 --> 00:03:01.700 And you can start at the beginning of the buffet 00:03:01.700 --> 00:03:04.910 and sort of pick it up from scratch. 00:03:04.910 --> 00:03:08.300 Or you can say, I'll skip the first couple courses, 00:03:08.300 --> 00:03:11.000 and I'm ready to dive in sort of in the middle 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:12.650 of the conversation somewhere. 00:03:12.650 --> 00:03:15.680 So I think the real key is having a huge selection 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:17.060 of materials to draw from. 00:03:17.060 --> 00:03:20.810 And that's, I think, one of the hallmarks of 6.004 00:03:20.810 --> 00:03:24.958 has been that we have every possible way 00:03:24.958 --> 00:03:26.000 of learning the material. 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:28.490 So not only for different backgrounds, 00:03:28.490 --> 00:03:30.300 but for different learning styles. 00:03:30.300 --> 00:03:33.770 So some students want to talk or listen. 00:03:33.770 --> 00:03:35.240 Some students want to read. 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:37.460 Some students just want to work on P-sets 00:03:37.460 --> 00:03:41.675 and do just-in-time learning, where they sort of say, 00:03:41.675 --> 00:03:42.800 here's what I need to know. 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:44.220 Now I'll go look at the material, 00:03:44.220 --> 00:03:46.760 just find the worked example, and if I 00:03:46.760 --> 00:03:48.380 don't understand the worked example, 00:03:48.380 --> 00:03:51.230 I'll go actually read the text. 00:03:51.230 --> 00:03:55.480 So they actually only get to the beginning of, if you will, 00:03:55.480 --> 00:03:58.850 the introductory or the explanatory material only, 00:03:58.850 --> 00:04:01.070 and as a last resort if they somehow 00:04:01.070 --> 00:04:02.990 didn't pick it up from before. 00:04:02.990 --> 00:04:03.110 SARAH HANSEN: That's interesting. 00:04:03.110 --> 00:04:05.690 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: So many different learning styles, 00:04:05.690 --> 00:04:07.580 many different backgrounds. 00:04:07.580 --> 00:04:13.850 SARAH HANSEN: How has the MITx Residential platform enabled 00:04:13.850 --> 00:04:17.131 you to provide this buffet? 00:04:17.131 --> 00:04:18.589 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Well, one, it's 00:04:18.589 --> 00:04:21.920 a one-stop shop for all the different sorts of materials. 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:25.310 And the other is there's sort of an emerging best practice 00:04:25.310 --> 00:04:30.260 about how to explain material to people for the first time. 00:04:30.260 --> 00:04:34.760 So you want to do short bites; sound bites, video bites. 00:04:34.760 --> 00:04:36.800 You know, those short segments of learning 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:40.280 where you introduce a single skill or a single concept. 00:04:40.280 --> 00:04:43.580 And then you take a moment to actually give them 00:04:43.580 --> 00:04:46.370 some check yourself questions. 00:04:46.370 --> 00:04:49.370 So the idea is in theory you just listened to this 00:04:49.370 --> 00:04:50.760 or watched it. 00:04:50.760 --> 00:04:53.310 I'm going to ask you some simple questions, not puzzlers. 00:04:53.310 --> 00:04:55.460 They're just if you understood what I just 00:04:55.460 --> 00:04:58.310 told you on the video, then you can answer them. 00:04:58.310 --> 00:05:00.620 And so that gives those students a chance 00:05:00.620 --> 00:05:03.440 to start the process of retrieval learning, 00:05:03.440 --> 00:05:05.920 where you keep coming back again and again. 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:08.950 And I'll ask you a similar sort of question two segments later. 00:05:08.950 --> 00:05:11.128 And pretty soon, you're pulling it out 00:05:11.128 --> 00:05:13.420 of your short-term, and then medium-term, and long-term 00:05:13.420 --> 00:05:15.490 memories. 00:05:15.490 --> 00:05:20.620 So the MITx platform works really 00:05:20.620 --> 00:05:23.680 well at letting you construct those sort of learning 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:24.850 sequences. 00:05:24.850 --> 00:05:26.680 And I think the students appreciate it. 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:28.900 Everything is more and more bite-sized. 00:05:28.900 --> 00:05:31.000 We both know, as you can imagine, 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:35.080 pushing play on a 50-minute video and along about minute-- 00:05:35.080 --> 00:05:37.870 well, I'm going to say 37, but along about minute six, 00:05:37.870 --> 00:05:40.007 you're going to be, all right, maybe I 00:05:40.007 --> 00:05:42.090 should check my email while I'm listening to this. 00:05:42.090 --> 00:05:42.600 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:45.250 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: It's keeping things short and sweet. 00:05:45.250 --> 00:05:46.890 So you have a huge-- 00:05:46.890 --> 00:05:49.510 because now you have a bunch of short bites. 00:05:49.510 --> 00:05:52.210 Now, the MITx platform lets you organize 00:05:52.210 --> 00:05:55.390 those with questions that let you sort of continue 00:05:55.390 --> 00:05:56.750 to test your learning. 00:05:56.750 --> 00:06:02.140 So it's actually worked out to be a very nice way of making 00:06:02.140 --> 00:06:05.290 a fairly organized tour through the material 00:06:05.290 --> 00:06:09.400 that the students can start, and stop, and come back to. 00:06:09.400 --> 00:06:10.570 Plus it's asynchronous. 00:06:10.570 --> 00:06:14.770 In other words, they get to choose their time and place. 00:06:14.770 --> 00:06:17.710 And us teachers always have a fantasy, well, 00:06:17.710 --> 00:06:19.775 they didn't come to lecture, so I'm sure at 3:00 00:06:19.775 --> 00:06:21.400 in the morning when they're wide awake, 00:06:21.400 --> 00:06:22.420 they're actually watching it. 00:06:22.420 --> 00:06:23.590 SARAH HANSEN: Of course. 00:06:23.590 --> 00:06:24.130 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: If you actually 00:06:24.130 --> 00:06:26.080 look at the statistics for the viewing, 00:06:26.080 --> 00:06:29.560 there's a lot of viewing that happens in quiz weeks. 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:32.120 So a lot of people may be using it as sort of a, 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:37.030 OK, I want the intense, immersive introduction 00:06:37.030 --> 00:06:37.970 to the material. 00:06:37.970 --> 00:06:39.115 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:06:39.115 --> 00:06:41.320 This must be just such an exciting time for you 00:06:41.320 --> 00:06:43.750 as someone who's really interested in the scholarship 00:06:43.750 --> 00:06:45.167 of teaching and learning, and then 00:06:45.167 --> 00:06:47.650 the emergence of these digital tools 00:06:47.650 --> 00:06:51.160 to enable that learning through best practices. 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:54.978 I can feel your enthusiasm for kind of the era that we're in. 00:06:54.978 --> 00:06:56.020 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Yeah. 00:06:56.020 --> 00:07:01.030 Well, so much of how us people-- or those of us who 00:07:01.030 --> 00:07:05.830 teach at the university level, we get handed a piece of chalk 00:07:05.830 --> 00:07:08.883 and be told to teach, unlike the teachers 00:07:08.883 --> 00:07:10.300 for your kids in elementary school 00:07:10.300 --> 00:07:12.940 who've actually gone through a program that teaches them 00:07:12.940 --> 00:07:13.590 how to teach. 00:07:13.590 --> 00:07:16.340 We're just said, here teach. 00:07:16.340 --> 00:07:18.070 And so it's all anecdotal. 00:07:18.070 --> 00:07:22.090 It's all trying to remember how people taught you. 00:07:22.090 --> 00:07:25.060 Finally, we have the online courses providing 00:07:25.060 --> 00:07:26.950 a real educational laboratory. 00:07:26.950 --> 00:07:29.020 We're able to try out different techniques. 00:07:29.020 --> 00:07:32.350 We're able to make fairly accurate assessments 00:07:32.350 --> 00:07:35.380 of how well did that just work, whether it 00:07:35.380 --> 00:07:39.430 was an exercise, or a video segment, or a design problem. 00:07:39.430 --> 00:07:44.080 And so we can actually do A/B tests in the same cadre. 00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:47.020 So it's pretty neat having a lab. 00:07:47.020 --> 00:07:49.450 I mean, as a scientist and engineer, you can say, look, 00:07:49.450 --> 00:07:52.670 I know about the hypothesis. 00:07:52.670 --> 00:07:55.300 Test it through a bunch of experiments. 00:07:55.300 --> 00:07:57.918 We can really do the experiments with the MITx platform. 00:07:57.918 --> 00:07:58.960 And so that's been great. 00:07:58.960 --> 00:08:00.430 SARAH HANSEN: Yeah, it's really exciting. 00:08:00.430 --> 00:08:01.630 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: It is. 00:08:01.630 --> 00:08:04.870 SARAH HANSEN: Let's talk about learning in the classroom 00:08:04.870 --> 00:08:09.310 and teaching large lecture classes. 00:08:09.310 --> 00:08:13.855 What strategies do you have for keeping students engaged? 00:08:13.855 --> 00:08:15.730 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Well, that's interesting. 00:08:15.730 --> 00:08:20.360 Because we have so many different materials, 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.360 really the only students who come to lecture 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:25.740 are the ones for whom lecture is how they learn. 00:08:25.740 --> 00:08:27.010 And I was such a student. 00:08:27.010 --> 00:08:27.940 SARAH HANSEN: I see. 00:08:27.940 --> 00:08:30.820 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: So the people 00:08:30.820 --> 00:08:34.480 who are there are not a draft army. 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:35.534 They're all volunteers. 00:08:35.534 --> 00:08:37.380 SARAH HANSEN: Self-selected. 00:08:37.380 --> 00:08:40.600 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: So they're prepared to be somewhat engaged 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:41.867 by a vocal presentation. 00:08:41.867 --> 00:08:42.700 SARAH HANSEN: I see. 00:08:42.700 --> 00:08:47.290 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: So I have a well-developed set of materials 00:08:47.290 --> 00:08:49.240 that I present in class that have 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:53.140 sort of been debugged for having not too much or too little. 00:08:53.140 --> 00:08:56.680 A progression that most people can follow. 00:08:56.680 --> 00:09:00.340 And then happily, when you teach for a while, 00:09:00.340 --> 00:09:01.960 you start to get more relaxed. 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:05.260 And so it's a very relaxed sort of experience. 00:09:05.260 --> 00:09:05.980 I tell jokes. 00:09:05.980 --> 00:09:07.960 I tell stories from my career. 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:11.260 And it's interesting to me how when the students are making 00:09:11.260 --> 00:09:14.320 comments at the end of the semester on the evaluations, 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:16.840 many of them say, I really liked the stories. 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:17.923 SARAH HANSEN: Interesting. 00:09:17.923 --> 00:09:19.750 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: So after boring you 00:09:19.750 --> 00:09:21.580 with technical details, it's fun to say, 00:09:21.580 --> 00:09:23.410 and then when I tried to use that, 00:09:23.410 --> 00:09:25.650 this following thing happened. 00:09:25.650 --> 00:09:28.390 And all of a sudden, they're sort of perking up, saying, oh. 00:09:28.390 --> 00:09:30.580 SARAH HANSEN: And I think it helps them remember the related 00:09:30.580 --> 00:09:30.970 content, too. 00:09:30.970 --> 00:09:31.600 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: It does. 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:32.100 It does. 00:09:32.100 --> 00:09:34.690 When you think about what you remember from lectures, 00:09:34.690 --> 00:09:36.790 it's almost never a technical nugget. 00:09:36.790 --> 00:09:40.480 It's a joke they told, or an accident that happened, 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:41.700 or a mistake that was made. 00:09:41.700 --> 00:09:41.990 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:09:41.990 --> 00:09:43.750 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And so it's-- 00:09:43.750 --> 00:09:47.090 there's this concept called fluency, 00:09:47.090 --> 00:09:50.640 which is basically how smoothly things are going, 00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:53.190 and everybody's nodding. 00:09:53.190 --> 00:09:56.080 So your mind is starting to drift, because it's all-- 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.140 so it's actually good to try to put a little disfluency 00:09:59.140 --> 00:10:02.232 into your lecture, to actually have a-- you stop, 00:10:02.232 --> 00:10:03.407 and you tell a joke. 00:10:03.407 --> 00:10:04.240 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:05.990 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Or you make a mistake, 00:10:05.990 --> 00:10:08.020 or you drop the chalk, and say, darn, 00:10:08.020 --> 00:10:09.190 and you look at the floor. 00:10:09.190 --> 00:10:10.600 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:12.058 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And here's what 00:10:12.058 --> 00:10:14.320 I like to do is you walk out from behind the lecture 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:17.880 table or lectern, and you approach the audience. 00:10:17.880 --> 00:10:22.340 And you can see them sort of going, wait, he's escaped. 00:10:22.340 --> 00:10:26.530 So just anything that sort of switches up the sort of I'm 00:10:26.530 --> 00:10:28.300 just going along with the flow here. 00:10:28.300 --> 00:10:33.160 So making little flows that have things that change 00:10:33.160 --> 00:10:36.700 make a lot of difference in keeping people sort of engaged. 00:10:36.700 --> 00:10:39.280 SARAH HANSEN: That's a great tip. 00:10:39.280 --> 00:10:42.640 Let's talk for a second about the teaching team. 00:10:42.640 --> 00:10:44.530 I understand there are a fair number 00:10:44.530 --> 00:10:48.040 of people involved in developing and teaching this course. 00:10:48.040 --> 00:10:49.240 Could you talk about that? 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.240 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Well, we have a little cadre 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:53.650 of people who are instructors. 00:10:53.650 --> 00:10:56.440 I've been sort of part of that cadre every semester 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:58.120 for a very long time. 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.180 But we have other people who come in from the outside. 00:11:01.180 --> 00:11:05.710 In recent years, the department has added lecturer resources. 00:11:05.710 --> 00:11:08.770 So there's another lecturer associated with it. 00:11:08.770 --> 00:11:10.780 And then faculty come in. 00:11:10.780 --> 00:11:12.898 And they provide a little depth to the gene pool. 00:11:12.898 --> 00:11:13.690 SARAH HANSEN: Sure. 00:11:13.690 --> 00:11:15.880 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: But then we have graduate TAs 00:11:15.880 --> 00:11:17.350 who teach recitations. 00:11:17.350 --> 00:11:23.170 And we have student undergraduate TAs, and then 00:11:23.170 --> 00:11:23.920 lab assistants. 00:11:23.920 --> 00:11:25.930 So sort of we have this whole hierarchy. 00:11:25.930 --> 00:11:27.790 They've all taken the course. 00:11:27.790 --> 00:11:29.860 Almost, they've all loved it. 00:11:29.860 --> 00:11:32.770 So I mean, it's sort of the material that people say, 00:11:32.770 --> 00:11:34.330 oh, this is really pretty neat. 00:11:34.330 --> 00:11:36.400 I can't wait to tell the next person about how this works. 00:11:36.400 --> 00:11:37.233 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:11:37.233 --> 00:11:40.900 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And so as they sit there and work 00:11:40.900 --> 00:11:43.990 with the students, sort of like me, 00:11:43.990 --> 00:11:46.000 there's an enthusiasm that sort of bubbles out. 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:47.330 SARAH HANSEN: It's contagious. 00:11:47.330 --> 00:11:48.460 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Yeah. 00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:50.470 And the students actually-- 00:11:50.470 --> 00:11:52.900 I sort of listed things sort of-- 00:11:52.900 --> 00:11:54.360 well, I was going to say top down. 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:57.290 I'm not sure lecturers are at the top 00:11:57.290 --> 00:11:59.288 or instructors are at the top. 00:11:59.288 --> 00:12:01.330 But the students actually prefer the other thing, 00:12:01.330 --> 00:12:06.590 which is actually asking an LA is not very intimidating. 00:12:06.590 --> 00:12:09.250 The students, maybe they just took it last semester. 00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:11.170 And so they have it fresh in their minds 00:12:11.170 --> 00:12:15.100 what it is they needed to do in order to get whatever 00:12:15.100 --> 00:12:17.410 it is they're trying to get. 00:12:17.410 --> 00:12:19.720 And then you sort of work the chain up, 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:25.930 work up the hierarchy to get an answer of people below. 00:12:25.930 --> 00:12:27.940 And that way you're only asking questions 00:12:27.940 --> 00:12:30.700 of the more intimidating people when 00:12:30.700 --> 00:12:33.140 you're pretty sure that no one else has the answer. 00:12:33.140 --> 00:12:36.340 So it's really-- by the time the questions sort of get to me, 00:12:36.340 --> 00:12:40.690 mostly no one is worried that they're a dumb question. 00:12:40.690 --> 00:12:43.093 Now, I don't really believe in dumb questions. 00:12:43.093 --> 00:12:45.010 I think all questions are sort of interesting. 00:12:45.010 --> 00:12:49.000 But I think the students are, look, I asked 10 people. 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:51.250 None of us knew, so now we can ask you. 00:12:51.250 --> 00:12:54.970 And I'm pretty confident that it wasn't an obvious thing 00:12:54.970 --> 00:12:59.410 that if I only read the assignment I would have known. 00:12:59.410 --> 00:13:04.120 So that sort of range of sort of experience level and age, 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:06.310 at the high end of the experience level, 00:13:06.310 --> 00:13:07.900 you can get an answer to any question. 00:13:07.900 --> 00:13:09.880 At the beginning end of the experience level, 00:13:09.880 --> 00:13:11.220 you're talking to somebody who-- 00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:12.660 SARAH HANSEN: Just had that experience 00:13:12.660 --> 00:13:15.077 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Just months ago did what you're doing. 00:13:15.077 --> 00:13:16.660 And so we can be-- 00:13:16.660 --> 00:13:19.120 I can ask you, and we won't be embarrassed. 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:20.890 SARAH HANSEN: Right, right. 00:13:20.890 --> 00:13:23.490 What's the role of the online fora 00:13:23.490 --> 00:13:25.570 in the course for helping students feel 00:13:25.570 --> 00:13:27.220 comfortable asking questions? 00:13:27.220 --> 00:13:29.320 And how do you monitor it? 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:30.930 How do you run it productively? 00:13:30.930 --> 00:13:34.990 This is something that educators sometimes struggle with. 00:13:34.990 --> 00:13:38.050 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Well, I mean, to me, 00:13:38.050 --> 00:13:39.400 it's a wonderful asset. 00:13:39.400 --> 00:13:42.670 For the first time I'm able to make a thoughtful answer 00:13:42.670 --> 00:13:45.370 to a question and have 180 people look 00:13:45.370 --> 00:13:46.770 at the answer instead of one. 00:13:46.770 --> 00:13:49.270 And then the next person who has the same question, you say, 00:13:49.270 --> 00:13:52.270 well, I just spent 10 minutes. 00:13:52.270 --> 00:13:55.120 And with a large class, you can't spend 10 minutes 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:57.930 for each of 300 people. 00:13:57.930 --> 00:14:00.670 So it's a great place to ask questions. 00:14:00.670 --> 00:14:03.610 I try to always give a thoughtful and respectful 00:14:03.610 --> 00:14:06.400 answer to each question. 00:14:06.400 --> 00:14:08.200 So even if the question is sort of like, 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:10.900 well, if you had done the reading, you would known, 00:14:10.900 --> 00:14:13.570 I say, well, if you look back at the material, 00:14:13.570 --> 00:14:16.510 you'll see it explains the following. 00:14:16.510 --> 00:14:18.070 Try to make it not-- 00:14:18.070 --> 00:14:22.010 a little hint that maybe a little bit more preparation. 00:14:22.010 --> 00:14:24.498 But many of the questions are, look, I read the material. 00:14:24.498 --> 00:14:25.540 I'm still not getting it. 00:14:25.540 --> 00:14:28.430 I need an example. 00:14:28.430 --> 00:14:30.430 And so the students, I try to make students 00:14:30.430 --> 00:14:31.802 feel very comfortable asking. 00:14:31.802 --> 00:14:33.010 It's never-- there's nothing. 00:14:33.010 --> 00:14:33.760 No cost. 00:14:33.760 --> 00:14:35.410 They can ask anonymously, so that 00:14:35.410 --> 00:14:36.730 removes some of the barrier. 00:14:36.730 --> 00:14:37.900 SARAH HANSEN: OK. 00:14:37.900 --> 00:14:40.555 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And then I think-- let's see. 00:14:40.555 --> 00:14:45.340 In the fall of 2017, we had about 2,500 contributions 00:14:45.340 --> 00:14:46.050 to the forum. 00:14:46.050 --> 00:14:46.445 SARAH HANSEN: Wow. 00:14:46.445 --> 00:14:46.840 OK. 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:48.715 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: The average response time 00:14:48.715 --> 00:14:50.800 is about 20 minutes. 00:14:50.800 --> 00:14:54.160 And so you say, wait, but students are asking questions 00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:56.200 at 3:00 AM. 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:57.280 How does that work? 00:14:57.280 --> 00:15:01.090 And it turns out that we have TAs. 00:15:01.090 --> 00:15:03.053 We particularly have some really good-- 00:15:03.053 --> 00:15:04.220 SARAH HANSEN: Nocturnal TAs. 00:15:04.220 --> 00:15:05.800 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Yes, exactly. 00:15:05.800 --> 00:15:08.610 At 3:00 AM they're just hitting their stride. 00:15:08.610 --> 00:15:10.360 A lot of us who are involved in the course 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:13.090 sort of have-- we put the notification 00:15:13.090 --> 00:15:15.010 of postings on real time. 00:15:15.010 --> 00:15:17.170 And so we get an email right away. 00:15:17.170 --> 00:15:21.490 And so often we can just type in an answer. 00:15:21.490 --> 00:15:22.270 And it's-- 00:15:22.270 --> 00:15:23.170 SARAH HANSEN: OK. 00:15:23.170 --> 00:15:25.120 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And I'm really-- 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:28.463 I think the fast response time really reduces the frustration 00:15:28.463 --> 00:15:29.380 level of the students. 00:15:29.380 --> 00:15:29.800 SARAH HANSEN: Ah. 00:15:29.800 --> 00:15:30.310 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: There's nothing 00:15:30.310 --> 00:15:31.717 like being stuck on something. 00:15:31.717 --> 00:15:32.550 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:15:32.550 --> 00:15:35.320 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And say, I wish I could ask somebody. 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:38.800 Well, for the first time, it's 3:12 in the morning. 00:15:38.800 --> 00:15:43.130 And you can say, wait, I can ask, and I can get an answer. 00:15:43.130 --> 00:15:46.300 And the students really, really appreciate that. 00:15:46.300 --> 00:15:48.760 So the forum has really, I think, 00:15:48.760 --> 00:15:54.700 changed students' level of frustration 00:15:54.700 --> 00:15:56.860 when they get stuck. 00:15:56.860 --> 00:16:00.977 Being stuck is just a 10-minute process, not a two-day process. 00:16:00.977 --> 00:16:01.810 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:16:01.810 --> 00:16:03.220 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: My god, the next office hours 00:16:03.220 --> 00:16:04.137 are after the weekend. 00:16:04.137 --> 00:16:05.610 What do I do? 00:16:05.610 --> 00:16:08.770 And of course, a lot of students are doing work outside 00:16:08.770 --> 00:16:10.960 of sort of 9:00 to 5:00 hours. 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:15.460 So it's a way for the staff to be a 24/7 staff instead of just 00:16:15.460 --> 00:16:18.730 a 9:00 to 5:00, five days a week staff. 00:16:18.730 --> 00:16:22.120 The staff like-- and then the students work like that, too. 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.270 Most of the people who are helping on the forum 00:16:25.270 --> 00:16:27.940 are keeping the same schedule as the users of the forum. 00:16:27.940 --> 00:16:30.120 So it's a good match. 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:31.630 SARAH HANSEN: OK. 00:16:31.630 --> 00:16:33.760 Let's talk for a minute about the lab 00:16:33.760 --> 00:16:36.520 experiences in the course. 00:16:36.520 --> 00:16:39.100 So students get hands-on experience 00:16:39.100 --> 00:16:40.620 doing digital design. 00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:41.620 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Yes. 00:16:41.620 --> 00:16:43.330 SARAH HANSEN: Could you talk about a few 00:16:43.330 --> 00:16:44.410 of those experiences? 00:16:44.410 --> 00:16:47.770 And also, does that take place here where we are right now? 00:16:47.770 --> 00:16:48.800 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Well, you can do it anywhere. 00:16:48.800 --> 00:16:49.640 It's browser-based. 00:16:49.640 --> 00:16:51.140 So there's no software to download. 00:16:51.140 --> 00:16:51.880 It's just on the web. 00:16:51.880 --> 00:16:52.380 You go. 00:16:52.380 --> 00:16:53.810 SARAH HANSEN: I see. 00:16:53.810 --> 00:16:55.643 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And so one of the things 00:16:55.643 --> 00:16:58.600 I enjoy doing is to build browser-based computer-aided 00:16:58.600 --> 00:16:59.570 design tools. 00:16:59.570 --> 00:17:02.260 It turns out that they actually work really well. 00:17:02.260 --> 00:17:03.850 The modern browser environments are 00:17:03.850 --> 00:17:07.470 quite capable as a programming environment. 00:17:07.470 --> 00:17:10.300 You have to learn a few tricks, but once you do, it works well. 00:17:10.300 --> 00:17:13.450 So they're reasonably high-performing tools. 00:17:13.450 --> 00:17:15.819 They can sit down and do. 00:17:15.819 --> 00:17:20.140 Much of the design work we do is sort of design-driven learning, 00:17:20.140 --> 00:17:22.599 where we're actually trying to get them to build something 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:23.474 that we've described. 00:17:23.474 --> 00:17:24.550 SARAH HANSEN: I see. 00:17:24.550 --> 00:17:26.633 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And we may have even told them 00:17:26.633 --> 00:17:28.630 in quite some detail how it fits together, 00:17:28.630 --> 00:17:31.270 but there's something about the old muscle memory bit 00:17:31.270 --> 00:17:33.970 about if you actually build it yourself, drag 00:17:33.970 --> 00:17:36.860 the components on and wire them up, 00:17:36.860 --> 00:17:38.620 you'll remember it much better. 00:17:38.620 --> 00:17:41.897 Or you'll ask yourself, wait, does this go here or here? 00:17:41.897 --> 00:17:43.480 And then you say-- then you look back, 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:45.580 and you're starting to say, I'm looking 00:17:45.580 --> 00:17:47.680 at this diagram, the instructions, 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:50.860 for the first time with enough care to appreciate that, 00:17:50.860 --> 00:17:53.860 oh, I have to put it this way in order for it to work. 00:17:53.860 --> 00:17:57.460 And so we're sort of-- 00:17:57.460 --> 00:18:00.220 hand and eye are engaged. 00:18:00.220 --> 00:18:03.890 It's not just a listening experience. 00:18:03.890 --> 00:18:06.160 We are able to-- if you assemble something, 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:09.400 we build tests to see if it functions correctly. 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:13.033 And so you can tell right away whether you've screwed it up. 00:18:13.033 --> 00:18:16.170 It's not like, well, I turn it in, and a week later-- 00:18:16.170 --> 00:18:18.740 long past when I've ceased to care-- 00:18:18.740 --> 00:18:22.560 I get back a red X. And I say, OK, well, dang. 00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:26.130 So here they have to get it right in order to complete it, 00:18:26.130 --> 00:18:28.503 but we tell them right away that it's not right. 00:18:28.503 --> 00:18:29.670 And they keep working on it. 00:18:29.670 --> 00:18:31.900 Or they post on Piazza. 00:18:31.900 --> 00:18:33.510 My circuit doesn't work. 00:18:33.510 --> 00:18:36.030 The staff can pull it up remotely from the server, 00:18:36.030 --> 00:18:39.900 and say, oh, here's where-- here's your mistake. 00:18:39.900 --> 00:18:43.800 So the idea is that the students are actually being engineers. 00:18:43.800 --> 00:18:48.360 This may be one of the first actual build-it experiences 00:18:48.360 --> 00:18:49.590 they have. 00:18:49.590 --> 00:18:52.760 Again, these are sophomores, right? 00:18:52.760 --> 00:18:55.295 So it's a little bit of fun to say, well, 00:18:55.295 --> 00:18:56.170 this is sort of neat. 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.610 I've actually put together the circuit and debugged it. 00:19:02.610 --> 00:19:04.230 So I had to say, well, what was wrong? 00:19:04.230 --> 00:19:05.130 I got a wrong thing. 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:06.330 What did I do wrong? 00:19:06.330 --> 00:19:07.630 And then fix it. 00:19:07.630 --> 00:19:10.080 So that's a very valuable experience. 00:19:10.080 --> 00:19:11.940 So it's one thing. 00:19:11.940 --> 00:19:14.320 It's like the late night TV salesman. 00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:15.600 When you watch them, use it. 00:19:15.600 --> 00:19:16.560 It's so easy. 00:19:16.560 --> 00:19:17.440 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.440 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: But you get the widget home. 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:20.677 And it doesn't work. 00:19:20.677 --> 00:19:22.510 And so that's-- they've seen it in lectures. 00:19:22.510 --> 00:19:23.880 They've seen it on the videos. 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.640 They've seen it the worked examples. 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.180 And it's all extremely obvious that this is straightforward 00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:31.410 until you do it yourself. 00:19:31.410 --> 00:19:33.030 And then you fill in all the pieces, 00:19:33.030 --> 00:19:37.110 that you were just being, oh, how hard could that be? 00:19:37.110 --> 00:19:38.207 Oh, now I know. 00:19:38.207 --> 00:19:39.040 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:19:39.040 --> 00:19:41.540 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: So they work hard at trying to fix that. 00:19:41.540 --> 00:19:43.980 And I think the whole idea of these virtual lab benches 00:19:43.980 --> 00:19:46.740 is great. 00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:49.290 As I said, the execution environment 00:19:49.290 --> 00:19:52.890 and the graphics environment on the browser is first rate. 00:19:52.890 --> 00:19:56.250 It's very easy to build sophisticated tools that 00:19:56.250 --> 00:20:00.340 use reasonably complex calculations in the background 00:20:00.340 --> 00:20:03.810 and have a really great user interface. 00:20:03.810 --> 00:20:06.920 And the browser is portable. 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:09.270 So 20 years ago I gave you software 00:20:09.270 --> 00:20:12.760 to download on your computer to do this stuff. 00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:13.890 The landmine that was. 00:20:13.890 --> 00:20:15.580 Everybody's environment was a little different. 00:20:15.580 --> 00:20:17.540 Oh, you don't have the latest version of that library? 00:20:17.540 --> 00:20:18.582 Well, you can't run this. 00:20:18.582 --> 00:20:22.080 But if you update your library, you can't run that. 00:20:22.080 --> 00:20:23.920 It was really a nightmare. 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:29.280 So packaging things-- packaging up these lab 00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:31.320 experiences in a way that they can be used 00:20:31.320 --> 00:20:34.590 by people around the world. 00:20:34.590 --> 00:20:35.370 So here I was. 00:20:35.370 --> 00:20:38.940 I was riding on the Hong Kong subway. 00:20:38.940 --> 00:20:43.510 And some young adult comes up to me and says, 00:20:43.510 --> 00:20:44.575 I took your MITx course. 00:20:44.575 --> 00:20:45.450 SARAH HANSEN: Really? 00:20:45.450 --> 00:20:47.490 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And I really loved doing the circuit stuff. 00:20:47.490 --> 00:20:49.115 And I didn't have to download anything. 00:20:49.115 --> 00:20:50.700 And I'm sort of going, wow. 00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:51.510 I mean, this is-- 00:20:51.510 --> 00:20:52.760 SARAH HANSEN: It's incredible. 00:20:52.760 --> 00:20:53.843 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: It is. 00:20:53.843 --> 00:20:55.960 It's interesting to be stopped by people. 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:56.793 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:20:56.793 --> 00:20:58.210 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And they start 00:20:58.210 --> 00:21:00.900 talking about how this was more than just a listening 00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:01.440 experience. 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:07.320 So these virtual labs actually go from being something that-- 00:21:07.320 --> 00:21:09.510 I mean, it takes courses from being a listening 00:21:09.510 --> 00:21:15.030 experience with maybe some pencil P-sets to your hands 00:21:15.030 --> 00:21:16.200 are active. 00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:18.780 So hands-on, brain on, right? 00:21:18.780 --> 00:21:22.720 And when people's brains turn on, it's amazing what-- 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:23.970 they remember it. 00:21:23.970 --> 00:21:26.600 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:21:26.600 --> 00:21:29.300 So what kind of challenges do students 00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:33.050 encounter when they're trying their hand at being engineers 00:21:33.050 --> 00:21:35.240 for the first time? 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:38.030 Is there anything that tends to pop up again and again? 00:21:41.800 --> 00:21:44.300 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: So I think a lot of this 00:21:44.300 --> 00:21:46.980 is sort of competence. 00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:52.988 So people sometimes-- the students come to me, and say, 00:21:52.988 --> 00:21:54.030 I want to make this work. 00:21:54.030 --> 00:21:56.180 And I say, OK, let me look at your design. 00:21:56.180 --> 00:21:57.230 Let's fix it. 00:21:57.230 --> 00:21:58.010 And I go through. 00:21:58.010 --> 00:22:01.490 And I try to keep my hands in my pockets 00:22:01.490 --> 00:22:02.930 and let them do the fixing. 00:22:02.930 --> 00:22:05.100 But I say, have you thought about this? 00:22:05.100 --> 00:22:07.790 If this works and that doesn't, what does that tell you? 00:22:07.790 --> 00:22:11.090 So a lot of students aren't very good at taking 00:22:11.090 --> 00:22:13.460 the information they do know and using 00:22:13.460 --> 00:22:15.720 it to deduce the next thing to try 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.080 or the next thing to test and to narrow down 00:22:18.080 --> 00:22:19.310 where the problem is. 00:22:19.310 --> 00:22:21.140 So there's a real-- there's a learning-- 00:22:21.140 --> 00:22:24.050 something you have to learn how to do is to be organized about 00:22:24.050 --> 00:22:28.710 how taking something that isn't working-- 00:22:28.710 --> 00:22:30.860 or complicated things, so parts of it are working, 00:22:30.860 --> 00:22:32.150 but something isn't. 00:22:32.150 --> 00:22:34.190 And trying to work back from both 00:22:34.190 --> 00:22:36.830 ends to somewhere in the middle that doesn't work. 00:22:36.830 --> 00:22:40.460 And so that's a skill that you have to practice for a while. 00:22:40.460 --> 00:22:43.940 And we try to help with that skill. 00:22:43.940 --> 00:22:46.070 I have a lot of confidence that will work. 00:22:46.070 --> 00:22:48.920 Most students are pretty convinced that either 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.075 the simulator is broken or is hopeless. 00:22:52.075 --> 00:22:53.450 And so they're somewhat surprised 00:22:53.450 --> 00:22:56.450 to realize that there is a systematic way 00:22:56.450 --> 00:22:58.100 to make something that works. 00:22:58.100 --> 00:23:03.950 And once they are convinced that that's actually true, 00:23:03.950 --> 00:23:06.740 they are getting more confident that, oh, it doesn't work now, 00:23:06.740 --> 00:23:09.890 but I'll just work on it for 10 minutes, and I'm sure it will. 00:23:09.890 --> 00:23:12.620 As opposed to just saying, oh, the only thing I can do 00:23:12.620 --> 00:23:14.660 is to raise my hand and say, could you help me? 00:23:14.660 --> 00:23:16.160 Because it isn't working. 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:17.720 So we try to get the students out 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:20.840 of, look, your job is to actually make it work, 00:23:20.840 --> 00:23:24.877 not to merely ask us to come over and watch us make it work. 00:23:24.877 --> 00:23:25.710 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:23:25.710 --> 00:23:28.628 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And so students make that transition 00:23:28.628 --> 00:23:29.420 through the course. 00:23:29.420 --> 00:23:30.230 SARAH HANSEN: So it seems-- 00:23:30.230 --> 00:23:31.500 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: The course of the course. 00:23:31.500 --> 00:23:32.333 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:23:32.333 --> 00:23:34.310 So it seems like a learning goal in the course 00:23:34.310 --> 00:23:37.050 is not only learning the architecture 00:23:37.050 --> 00:23:40.100 of digital systems, but also developing 00:23:40.100 --> 00:23:43.520 professional competencies in the sense of attitudes 00:23:43.520 --> 00:23:44.487 that engineers embrace. 00:23:44.487 --> 00:23:45.570 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Right. 00:23:45.570 --> 00:23:47.840 There's a bunch of processes that you have to go through. 00:23:47.840 --> 00:23:48.100 SARAH HANSEN: Processes. 00:23:48.100 --> 00:23:50.450 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And the same thing is true of all learning. 00:23:50.450 --> 00:23:51.980 Learning how to learn is something 00:23:51.980 --> 00:23:54.290 that sophomores are still doing. 00:23:54.290 --> 00:23:57.860 And so this is probably the first time 00:23:57.860 --> 00:24:01.520 that they've been sort of thrown into the deep end. 00:24:01.520 --> 00:24:04.940 We try to have lots of lifeguards standing by. 00:24:04.940 --> 00:24:07.040 But we're prepared to do more than just 00:24:07.040 --> 00:24:09.630 check off on our clipboard, sink or swim. 00:24:09.630 --> 00:24:13.380 I mean, we're ready to dive in, and say, OK, try this. 00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:14.900 Try that. 00:24:14.900 --> 00:24:19.760 It's actually pretty helpful to have an experience like this 00:24:19.760 --> 00:24:22.610 after your freshman year, which has a lot of training wheels, 00:24:22.610 --> 00:24:24.530 but before your upper level classes 00:24:24.530 --> 00:24:29.020 where help is a little thin. 00:24:29.020 --> 00:24:30.830 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:24:30.830 --> 00:24:33.590 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: One of the great things about 004 is that 00:24:33.590 --> 00:24:37.170 half the people on your hall have taken this course. 00:24:37.170 --> 00:24:40.250 And so even though we have our core staff, 00:24:40.250 --> 00:24:42.560 you can go down your hall, and as I say, 00:24:42.560 --> 00:24:45.230 every other person will say, oh, I took the course. 00:24:45.230 --> 00:24:48.050 So there's actually an enormous body 00:24:48.050 --> 00:24:51.050 of knowledge about the material and things like that. 00:24:51.050 --> 00:24:56.720 So not many courses have that opportunity, 00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:58.630 but we take great advantage of it. 00:24:58.630 --> 00:25:01.820 So there's a lot of sort of hallway learning, 00:25:01.820 --> 00:25:03.830 peer learning that happens outside 00:25:03.830 --> 00:25:05.270 of the sort of structured learning 00:25:05.270 --> 00:25:06.565 that we do in the class. 00:25:06.565 --> 00:25:07.940 SARAH HANSEN: That's fascinating. 00:25:07.940 --> 00:25:09.560 It kind of speaks to the importance 00:25:09.560 --> 00:25:12.140 of having common learning experiences 00:25:12.140 --> 00:25:14.750 at the undergraduate level just to facilitate 00:25:14.750 --> 00:25:17.120 that sort of, like you said, hallway learning. 00:25:17.120 --> 00:25:18.200 It's really interesting. 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:20.158 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Well, plus students often-- 00:25:20.158 --> 00:25:21.660 during the day, it's hectic. 00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:21.920 SARAH HANSEN: Yes. 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:23.300 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: They're distracted. 00:25:23.300 --> 00:25:24.410 They come to lecture. 00:25:24.410 --> 00:25:27.050 They have lots of things on their minds. 00:25:27.050 --> 00:25:30.110 So mostly it's being in the quiet of their room 00:25:30.110 --> 00:25:32.750 that they probably intellectually really 00:25:32.750 --> 00:25:34.190 grapple with the material. 00:25:34.190 --> 00:25:38.630 So first of all, giving them things to grapple with is good, 00:25:38.630 --> 00:25:41.600 but then making sure they're supported, either through peers 00:25:41.600 --> 00:25:43.970 or through the Piazza forum. 00:25:43.970 --> 00:25:47.566 When they're outside of the sort of structured help we provide. 00:25:47.566 --> 00:25:48.520 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:25:48.520 --> 00:25:49.937 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: It's really, I 00:25:49.937 --> 00:25:52.370 think, changed how the students consume the course. 00:25:52.370 --> 00:25:59.030 And so the lecture attendance is modest. 00:25:59.030 --> 00:26:04.100 But a lot of people do very well on learning the material 00:26:04.100 --> 00:26:04.892 on the assessments. 00:26:04.892 --> 00:26:05.725 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:26:05.725 --> 00:26:07.250 I mean, I think that speaks to what 00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:10.520 you talked about earlier in that you offer a buffet of ways 00:26:10.520 --> 00:26:11.240 to learn. 00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:13.240 And so people who come to the lectures 00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:16.967 are the people who learn best through that format. 00:26:16.967 --> 00:26:18.050 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Right. 00:26:18.050 --> 00:26:20.720 And some people I never see except occasionally they'll 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:22.150 come when I have lab hours. 00:26:22.150 --> 00:26:24.650 They'll come by, because they just want to chit chat, right? 00:26:24.650 --> 00:26:25.483 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:26:25.483 --> 00:26:27.260 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: We have-- 00:26:27.260 --> 00:26:29.600 one of the activities you do after you do the design, 00:26:29.600 --> 00:26:30.650 we have a check-off. 00:26:30.650 --> 00:26:34.850 So you have to come and sort of explain your design. 00:26:34.850 --> 00:26:37.940 Partly that's just to make sure that maybe you actually 00:26:37.940 --> 00:26:40.947 did the design instead of your friend down the hall. 00:26:40.947 --> 00:26:41.780 SARAH HANSEN: I see. 00:26:41.780 --> 00:26:43.613 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And so at the very least 00:26:43.613 --> 00:26:45.280 we want them to understand the design 00:26:45.280 --> 00:26:46.572 that they claim they have done. 00:26:46.572 --> 00:26:47.763 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:26:47.763 --> 00:26:49.180 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: But for people 00:26:49.180 --> 00:26:51.010 who have worked hard on it, it's an opp-- 00:26:51.010 --> 00:26:53.380 they love to come by and show it off. 00:26:53.380 --> 00:26:55.900 And so they're proud of their baby, right? 00:26:55.900 --> 00:26:57.670 I mean, particularly towards the end 00:26:57.670 --> 00:27:01.240 of the course when we have a fairly complex design 00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:05.260 project, which is actually very hard to get very high marks on. 00:27:05.260 --> 00:27:07.280 I mean, you have to be really good to get it. 00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:11.050 And so it's an amazing number of people who tackle that. 00:27:11.050 --> 00:27:12.160 And they come in. 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:14.120 And they say, OK, I'm stuck here. 00:27:14.120 --> 00:27:16.210 Give me some ideas what to try next. 00:27:16.210 --> 00:27:20.460 And if you dare try to say, well, just do this. 00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:22.030 I don't want the answer. 00:27:22.030 --> 00:27:23.650 I want you to-- 00:27:23.650 --> 00:27:24.870 I'm having fun here. 00:27:24.870 --> 00:27:26.288 So don't take away the fun part. 00:27:26.288 --> 00:27:27.580 I want to puzzle it out myself. 00:27:27.580 --> 00:27:29.020 I just need some hints as to where 00:27:29.020 --> 00:27:31.445 my puzzler should be focusing. 00:27:31.445 --> 00:27:33.070 SARAH HANSEN: The fun is in the puzzle. 00:27:33.070 --> 00:27:34.153 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: It is. 00:27:34.153 --> 00:27:35.410 It is, and the doing of it. 00:27:35.410 --> 00:27:37.755 SARAH HANSEN: And the doing of it. 00:27:37.755 --> 00:27:39.630 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And I think that's great, 00:27:39.630 --> 00:27:42.180 because when students first come, 00:27:42.180 --> 00:27:44.250 they tend to be focusing on the answers. 00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:47.220 Here you gave me a bunch of-- a worksheet full of questions. 00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:49.082 So I looked at the answers. 00:27:49.082 --> 00:27:50.040 I think I'm good to go. 00:27:50.040 --> 00:27:53.190 I say, no, the worksheets aren't because we want you to know 00:27:53.190 --> 00:27:54.510 the answers to those questions. 00:27:54.510 --> 00:27:57.840 The worksheets are to help you diagnose 00:27:57.840 --> 00:27:59.933 whether you understand things. 00:27:59.933 --> 00:28:02.100 So the best thing that can happen with the worksheet 00:28:02.100 --> 00:28:04.620 is I don't know how to do this problem. 00:28:04.620 --> 00:28:06.720 And so I should go figure out how to do it. 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:12.210 So if you're doing this self-paced mastery learning 00:28:12.210 --> 00:28:17.730 shtick, which is sort of how we try to help students 00:28:17.730 --> 00:28:23.850 master the material at their own pace, whenever they want to. 00:28:23.850 --> 00:28:26.370 So we have to provide a lot of self-assessments. 00:28:26.370 --> 00:28:28.580 They have to use them as assessments, though. 00:28:28.580 --> 00:28:28.920 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:29.580 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: They don't use them 00:28:29.580 --> 00:28:30.840 as assessments if they're just saying, 00:28:30.840 --> 00:28:32.507 oh, the answer's three to this question, 00:28:32.507 --> 00:28:34.590 and I hope they ask this one on the quiz. 00:28:34.590 --> 00:28:35.797 They're not getting it. 00:28:35.797 --> 00:28:36.630 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:28:36.630 --> 00:28:37.290 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Getting students 00:28:37.290 --> 00:28:39.660 to stop focusing on the answers and really 00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:43.177 focus on, how do I tackle this sort of problem? 00:28:43.177 --> 00:28:44.010 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:28:44.010 --> 00:28:45.210 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Of all the things I know how to do, 00:28:45.210 --> 00:28:48.540 I first have to select the appropriate concept or skill, 00:28:48.540 --> 00:28:50.580 and then I have to know how to apply it. 00:28:50.580 --> 00:28:54.300 It's sort of neat to watch them make the transition from coming 00:28:54.300 --> 00:28:58.770 in as sort of answer focused to leaving sort of like, OK, you 00:28:58.770 --> 00:29:00.960 can ask me anything, because I actually 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:02.940 know how to do things from scratch, 00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:08.610 not because I just could pick something. 00:29:08.610 --> 00:29:11.490 I can not only recognize the right answer when I see it. 00:29:11.490 --> 00:29:13.470 I can actually make right answers. 00:29:13.470 --> 00:29:15.810 That's a very-- people feel empowered 00:29:15.810 --> 00:29:19.020 when they can do that. 00:29:19.020 --> 00:29:21.330 SARAH HANSEN: Let's talk a bit about the future. 00:29:21.330 --> 00:29:24.030 It seems like the courses is finely tuned already. 00:29:24.030 --> 00:29:26.010 But do you have ideas for how you 00:29:26.010 --> 00:29:28.413 might tweak it in the future? 00:29:28.413 --> 00:29:30.580 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Well, I'm retiring in two weeks. 00:29:30.580 --> 00:29:32.175 SARAH HANSEN: Oh, so not you. 00:29:32.175 --> 00:29:34.050 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: So it's being turned over 00:29:34.050 --> 00:29:34.860 to a new team. 00:29:34.860 --> 00:29:37.470 Some of the people who were part of the teaching cadre 00:29:37.470 --> 00:29:40.440 earlier are taking it over. 00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:42.840 They, of course, have their own strong opinions 00:29:42.840 --> 00:29:45.160 about better ways of doing things. 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:47.640 So I think that the basic structure of the course 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:51.270 will be the same, the basic list of topics that will be taught. 00:29:51.270 --> 00:29:54.030 But they have a different sort of design experience in mind. 00:29:54.030 --> 00:29:57.750 So they'll find their own way. 00:29:57.750 --> 00:30:00.240 It's interesting to me because I think 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.640 until you've taught a 300-person course, 00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:06.300 you may not appreciate how things which work really 00:30:06.300 --> 00:30:08.760 well with two students in your office 00:30:08.760 --> 00:30:12.420 or 10 students in a recitation doesn't really 00:30:12.420 --> 00:30:14.073 work for 300 students. 00:30:14.073 --> 00:30:15.990 You suddenly say, well, they'll ask a question 00:30:15.990 --> 00:30:16.698 if they have one. 00:30:16.698 --> 00:30:18.930 So I don't need to be too specific. 00:30:18.930 --> 00:30:22.830 It's sort of interesting to say, whoa, 300 questions. 00:30:22.830 --> 00:30:24.030 That's a lot of questions. 00:30:24.030 --> 00:30:25.770 And three of them from every student. 00:30:25.770 --> 00:30:28.060 So I have 1,000 questions this week. 00:30:28.060 --> 00:30:31.290 And so you start learning how carefully the materials 00:30:31.290 --> 00:30:32.160 have to be prepared. 00:30:34.950 --> 00:30:36.700 In one of the questions you sent me, 00:30:36.700 --> 00:30:40.680 you talked about engineering the materials. 00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:44.460 And a big class has a real issue with engineering materials 00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:49.440 that will help get students to do the things 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:53.400 you want them to do, but you can't leave them adrift, 00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:56.160 because you only have so much capacity 00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.350 to pull them all back to shore. 00:30:58.350 --> 00:31:00.960 And so you really have to put most of what 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:02.740 they need into the materials. 00:31:02.740 --> 00:31:05.220 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:08.700 Can you say more about engineering the materials 00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:10.838 to keep everyone afloat? 00:31:10.838 --> 00:31:13.130 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: Well, so it's an iterative process. 00:31:13.130 --> 00:31:17.570 I mean, people say, oh, 004, it runs like clockwork. 00:31:17.570 --> 00:31:19.700 This is the best organized course I've ever had. 00:31:19.700 --> 00:31:24.500 And I say, well, 20 years ago you wouldn't have said that. 00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:26.875 We've had our share of unfortunate assignments, 00:31:26.875 --> 00:31:29.150 or undoable assignments, or assignments 00:31:29.150 --> 00:31:32.270 that were just too hard for some students, or too easy 00:31:32.270 --> 00:31:33.380 for everybody. 00:31:33.380 --> 00:31:35.540 And so yes, we do that. 00:31:35.540 --> 00:31:38.708 We try to get student feedback. 00:31:38.708 --> 00:31:40.250 The forum is actually great for that. 00:31:40.250 --> 00:31:42.180 You get instant feedback on-- 00:31:42.180 --> 00:31:42.680 this sucked. 00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:45.700 And you're going, OK, OK. 00:31:45.700 --> 00:31:47.630 And so if you're good, you make notes. 00:31:47.630 --> 00:31:48.467 SARAH HANSEN: OK. 00:31:48.467 --> 00:31:50.675 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: I think I've taught this course-- 00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:55.100 I don't know-- 00:31:55.100 --> 00:31:55.880 30 semesters. 00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:56.630 SARAH HANSEN: Wow. 00:31:56.630 --> 00:31:59.047 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: So that gives you a lot of opportunity 00:31:59.047 --> 00:32:00.153 to think-- 00:32:00.153 --> 00:32:02.070 reflect at the end of each semester about what 00:32:02.070 --> 00:32:03.600 went right, what went wrong. 00:32:03.600 --> 00:32:06.300 With a good staff, they're usually on top of it. 00:32:06.300 --> 00:32:09.810 Oh, we've got to change this, or I spent too much time 00:32:09.810 --> 00:32:11.660 helping students with this. 00:32:11.660 --> 00:32:14.490 And even in real-time we'll add a paragraph 00:32:14.490 --> 00:32:18.180 to the assignment saying, oh, a little bit more explanation, 00:32:18.180 --> 00:32:19.027 or a hint. 00:32:19.027 --> 00:32:19.860 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:32:19.860 --> 00:32:24.110 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: So a willingness to sort of-- 00:32:24.110 --> 00:32:26.070 and think of building the materials 00:32:26.070 --> 00:32:28.630 as a continuous process. 00:32:28.630 --> 00:32:32.000 And after a while, most of the potholes are filled in, 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.850 and the drive is pretty smooth. 00:32:33.850 --> 00:32:35.795 SARAH HANSEN: Right. 00:32:35.795 --> 00:32:37.170 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And sometimes 00:32:37.170 --> 00:32:40.830 the unexpected problem is actually a doorway 00:32:40.830 --> 00:32:43.800 actually into a whole new thing. 00:32:43.800 --> 00:32:46.440 We have some students that say, I thought about this, 00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:47.730 and I tried doing it this way. 00:32:47.730 --> 00:32:50.850 And I'm going, whoa, what a great insight that is. 00:32:50.850 --> 00:32:53.710 And so we want all the students to have that opportunity. 00:32:53.710 --> 00:32:55.210 So now we're going to figure out how 00:32:55.210 --> 00:32:57.990 to build that into the design problem 00:32:57.990 --> 00:33:01.820 so that everybody has an opportunity to go aha. 00:33:01.820 --> 00:33:04.170 And it was really neat that the students 00:33:04.170 --> 00:33:06.570 were able to come up with that themselves. 00:33:06.570 --> 00:33:12.070 But that gives you a viewpoint. 00:33:12.070 --> 00:33:15.510 It gives you an opportunity to understand how students 00:33:15.510 --> 00:33:17.670 are seeing what you're asking. 00:33:17.670 --> 00:33:20.170 They misunderstood, so they answered a different question. 00:33:20.170 --> 00:33:23.470 And it turns out that different question was at least 00:33:23.470 --> 00:33:26.170 as interesting, or maybe even better than the one you asked. 00:33:26.170 --> 00:33:30.500 And so then you start one of these virtual cycles. 00:33:30.500 --> 00:33:33.730 Then slowly you build up stuff where 00:33:33.730 --> 00:33:37.480 you end up with questions that are really-- 00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:40.550 they don't look like there's much to them, 00:33:40.550 --> 00:33:42.640 but there's been a lot of evolution 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:45.070 behind asking it just this way. 00:33:45.070 --> 00:33:46.270 SARAH HANSEN: Interesting. 00:33:46.270 --> 00:33:48.640 CHRISTOPHER TERMAN: And just this order. 00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:51.220 So it's been fun to go through that experience, 00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:52.630 and often surprising. 00:33:52.630 --> 00:33:55.773 And we go, oh, I thought it was so clear.