WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.040 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.470 align:middle line:84% The following content is provided under a Creative 00:00:02.470 --> 00:00:03.890 align:middle line:90% Commons license. 00:00:03.890 --> 00:00:06.920 align:middle line:84% Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare continue to 00:00:06.920 --> 00:00:10.570 align:middle line:84% offer high quality educational resources for free. 00:00:10.570 --> 00:00:13.470 align:middle line:84% To make a donation, or view additional materials from 00:00:13.470 --> 00:00:18.816 align:middle line:84% hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare at 00:00:18.816 --> 00:00:20.790 align:middle line:90% ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:20.790 --> 00:00:24.290 align:middle line:84% Some content in this audio is not covered under a Creative 00:00:24.290 --> 00:00:25.775 align:middle line:90% Commons license. 00:00:25.775 --> 00:00:29.790 align:middle line:84% For more information, see the course materials on the MIT 00:00:29.790 --> 00:00:33.040 align:middle line:90% OpenCourseWare website. 00:00:33.040 --> 00:00:33.990 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: OK. 00:00:33.990 --> 00:00:38.390 align:middle line:84% So today we're going to, I guess, kind of 00:00:38.390 --> 00:00:39.640 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:41.512 align:middle line:90% 00:00:41.512 --> 00:00:45.886 align:middle line:90% folks from [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:00:45.886 --> 00:00:48.990 align:middle line:84% which is actually very closely related. 00:00:48.990 --> 00:00:51.650 align:middle line:84% These are folks that, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] the 00:00:51.650 --> 00:00:55.550 align:middle line:84% Comparative Media Studies Research Group, based in the 00:00:55.550 --> 00:00:58.295 align:middle line:84% old Media Lab building right now. 00:00:58.295 --> 00:01:02.210 align:middle line:84% And you work with the shared education program. 00:01:02.210 --> 00:01:05.555 align:middle line:84% For folks who're unaware of this, MIT actually has a 00:01:05.555 --> 00:01:06.025 align:middle line:90% teacher education program. 00:01:06.025 --> 00:01:09.804 align:middle line:84% So if you want to be a certified teacher to teach-- 00:01:09.804 --> 00:01:12.516 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Middle school math and science. 00:01:12.516 --> 00:01:14.930 align:middle line:90% Secondary math and science. 00:01:14.930 --> 00:01:16.140 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Then you can take classes and basically get your 00:01:16.140 --> 00:01:17.680 align:middle line:84% certification of [UNINTELLIGIBLE] certification 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:20.720 align:middle line:90% at the end of those classes. 00:01:20.720 --> 00:01:21.970 align:middle line:90% But they also make games. 00:01:21.970 --> 00:01:25.609 align:middle line:90% 00:01:25.609 --> 00:01:30.740 align:middle line:84% Games using portable devices like iPhones and PocketPC 00:01:30.740 --> 00:01:35.860 align:middle line:84% games that run on Flash to go and prototype stuff before. 00:01:35.860 --> 00:01:38.920 align:middle line:84% And focusing a lot on games for learning. 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:39.770 align:middle line:84% So the education [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:01:39.770 --> 00:01:41.020 align:middle line:90% the research group. 00:01:41.020 --> 00:01:43.996 align:middle line:84% The Learning Games Network is kind of like a spinoff company 00:01:43.996 --> 00:01:45.100 align:middle line:90% of the [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:01:45.100 --> 00:01:50.797 align:middle line:84% It basically sort of works on projects that will be too 00:01:50.797 --> 00:01:54.080 align:middle line:84% expensive to do inside the university. 00:01:54.080 --> 00:01:55.390 align:middle line:84% Because the university is really inefficient. 00:01:55.390 --> 00:01:56.926 align:middle line:90% Anyway. 00:01:56.926 --> 00:02:00.870 align:middle line:84% Maybe you can start by introducing yourself? 00:02:00.870 --> 00:02:05.307 align:middle line:90% 00:02:05.307 --> 00:02:08.250 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I'm the latest in the group, so OK. 00:02:08.250 --> 00:02:09.280 align:middle line:90% I am Constantine. 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:10.110 align:middle line:90% I come from Austria. 00:02:10.110 --> 00:02:11.910 align:middle line:84% I'm at the moment a visiting researcher at 00:02:11.910 --> 00:02:14.952 align:middle line:90% the Education Arcade. 00:02:14.952 --> 00:02:20.230 align:middle line:84% And so I'd say I come from an educational background. 00:02:20.230 --> 00:02:22.140 align:middle line:84% So I did my Ph.D on learning from failure. 00:02:22.140 --> 00:02:24.890 align:middle line:90% 00:02:24.890 --> 00:02:29.400 align:middle line:84% And I worked on theories that explain why we use, why we 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:32.060 align:middle line:84% learn through mistakes and why most of them don't want to 00:02:32.060 --> 00:02:32.980 align:middle line:90% learn from failure. 00:02:32.980 --> 00:02:36.150 align:middle line:84% But in games we think it's really funny, or entertaining, 00:02:36.150 --> 00:02:37.205 align:middle line:90% or challenging. 00:02:37.205 --> 00:02:42.560 align:middle line:84% So I was really interested in how games can be tools to 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:45.340 align:middle line:84% understand learning and also, is it possible-- 00:02:45.340 --> 00:02:47.770 align:middle line:84% this is one of my research questions-- is it possible 00:02:47.770 --> 00:02:51.220 align:middle line:84% that people may learn, through playing games, how to cope 00:02:51.220 --> 00:02:52.580 align:middle line:90% with failure better? 00:02:52.580 --> 00:02:55.256 align:middle line:84% Like, being more open to realizing that sometimes in 00:02:55.256 --> 00:02:59.760 align:middle line:84% life we make failure and our expectations are not true, or 00:02:59.760 --> 00:03:01.850 align:middle line:90% sometimes maybe wrong. 00:03:01.850 --> 00:03:06.370 align:middle line:84% So I do research on the theoretical level with that, 00:03:06.370 --> 00:03:08.820 align:middle line:84% and I do interviews with players on learning 00:03:08.820 --> 00:03:12.070 align:middle line:84% biographies and on how learning experiences through 00:03:12.070 --> 00:03:14.684 align:middle line:84% games were important in their lives. 00:03:14.684 --> 00:03:20.230 align:middle line:84% And in the summer I was happy to work for Gambit and design 00:03:20.230 --> 00:03:22.470 align:middle line:84% a game in the summer production. 00:03:22.470 --> 00:03:23.980 align:middle line:84% Maybe you heard about that anyway, or-- 00:03:23.980 --> 00:03:25.420 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:03:25.420 --> 00:03:26.494 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: So it's just like 8 weeks. 00:03:26.494 --> 00:03:32.920 align:middle line:84% I was on a team and my theory was used as the basis to 00:03:32.920 --> 00:03:37.610 align:middle line:84% develop a learning game called Afterland. 00:03:37.610 --> 00:03:42.230 align:middle line:84% And of course it's free online. 00:03:42.230 --> 00:03:45.050 align:middle line:84% And I think our students did a really good job on this game. 00:03:45.050 --> 00:03:48.560 align:middle line:90% And it's a platformer where-- 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:52.008 align:middle line:84% I will not tell you what it's about because then I would 00:03:52.008 --> 00:03:54.960 align:middle line:90% ruin it, but there is a twist. 00:03:54.960 --> 00:04:00.480 align:middle line:84% And what I'm going to do now in the next year is, it looks 00:04:00.480 --> 00:04:03.450 align:middle line:84% like I will try for a few months and do research on how 00:04:03.450 --> 00:04:05.580 align:middle line:90% the game is used by players. 00:04:05.580 --> 00:04:08.420 align:middle line:84% How they learn in the game, how they reflect on the game 00:04:08.420 --> 00:04:09.870 align:middle line:84% and I will work with [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:04:09.870 --> 00:04:13.844 align:middle line:84% Johnson and hopefully even [UNINTELLIGIBLE] in that. 00:04:13.844 --> 00:04:16.670 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:04:16.670 --> 00:04:19.025 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:04:19.025 --> 00:04:20.490 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Hi, I'm Dan Reilly. 00:04:20.490 --> 00:04:21.347 align:middle line:90% I'm a CMS alum. 00:04:21.347 --> 00:04:24.780 align:middle line:84% I did a masters in, finished in 07. 00:04:24.780 --> 00:04:27.610 align:middle line:84% Worked with Philip a little bit here and there. 00:04:27.610 --> 00:04:31.444 align:middle line:84% Mostly I worked with the Education Arcade during my 00:04:31.444 --> 00:04:35.316 align:middle line:90% time at CMS and with Scott. 00:04:35.316 --> 00:04:38.740 align:middle line:84% And we worked on a project called Lunar the Labyrinth 00:04:38.740 --> 00:04:40.920 align:middle line:90% which you may have heard of. 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:44.338 align:middle line:84% It teaches middle school math and literacy skills, 00:04:44.338 --> 00:04:48.306 align:middle line:84% particularly to the at-risk population that I believe 00:04:48.306 --> 00:04:50.290 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:04:50.290 --> 00:04:51.740 align:middle line:90% It's free and online. 00:04:51.740 --> 00:04:52.235 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:04:52.235 --> 00:04:54.215 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Better than after me. 00:04:54.215 --> 00:04:58.670 align:middle line:90% 00:04:58.670 --> 00:05:00.650 align:middle line:90% Got to keep it interesting. 00:05:00.650 --> 00:05:02.630 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: Is there a twist? 00:05:02.630 --> 00:05:04.115 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Is there a twist? 00:05:04.115 --> 00:05:06.590 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: Yes, well-- 00:05:06.590 --> 00:05:08.460 align:middle line:84% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] twist that you originally wanted. 00:05:08.460 --> 00:05:09.710 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:05:09.710 --> 00:05:12.900 align:middle line:90% 00:05:12.900 --> 00:05:13.300 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: There was a twist in 00:05:13.300 --> 00:05:14.550 align:middle line:90% the development process. 00:05:14.550 --> 00:05:17.330 align:middle line:90% 00:05:17.330 --> 00:05:23.412 align:middle line:84% So, that one was feted by the Department of Education. 00:05:23.412 --> 00:05:27.645 align:middle line:84% And it was a larger scale project, but the grant didn't 00:05:27.645 --> 00:05:30.615 align:middle line:84% go to MIT, it went to Maryland Public Television. 00:05:30.615 --> 00:05:35.565 align:middle line:84% So that was part of the, I believe, impetus, for the 00:05:35.565 --> 00:05:39.975 align:middle line:84% spinoff of the Learning Games Network, is to house a 00:05:39.975 --> 00:05:45.990 align:middle line:84% structure that can accomodate the sorts of larger scale 00:05:45.990 --> 00:05:50.380 align:middle line:84% projects and think about them in more sustainable ways. 00:05:50.380 --> 00:05:54.020 align:middle line:84% I'll let Scott talk about that. 00:05:54.020 --> 00:05:59.750 align:middle line:90% So, how did I get into this? 00:05:59.750 --> 00:06:06.470 align:middle line:84% My interest in learning games is mostly around engagement. 00:06:06.470 --> 00:06:11.380 align:middle line:84% I feel like people who are extremely motivated and 00:06:11.380 --> 00:06:14.200 align:middle line:84% enthralled with a particular subject will find a 00:06:14.200 --> 00:06:15.100 align:middle line:90% way to learn it. 00:06:15.100 --> 00:06:19.440 align:middle line:84% And that a game may or may not be the best way to learn 00:06:19.440 --> 00:06:21.450 align:middle line:90% anything in particular. 00:06:21.450 --> 00:06:26.200 align:middle line:84% But that there are many people out there who struggle to get 00:06:26.200 --> 00:06:29.500 align:middle line:84% interested in a topic they're even trying. 00:06:29.500 --> 00:06:31.370 align:middle line:84% And so a game can be useful there. 00:06:31.370 --> 00:06:37.680 align:middle line:84% So that's an exploratory tool to say, well, I never really 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:42.050 align:middle line:84% thought about history, but I like this game and I want to 00:06:42.050 --> 00:06:44.125 align:middle line:84% spend some time with it and I want to be good at it, and 00:06:44.125 --> 00:06:48.224 align:middle line:84% it's social, so now I'm finding myself asking the 00:06:48.224 --> 00:06:50.970 align:middle line:84% kinds of questions that other people are telling me 00:06:50.970 --> 00:06:51.960 align:middle line:90% historians ask. 00:06:51.960 --> 00:06:56.154 align:middle line:84% And I don't know what label they want to put on it, but I 00:06:56.154 --> 00:06:59.430 align:middle line:84% think it's interesting, and just sort of having that 00:06:59.430 --> 00:07:01.780 align:middle line:90% introduction to a topic. 00:07:01.780 --> 00:07:06.900 align:middle line:84% Also I think games are helpful for-- 00:07:06.900 --> 00:07:09.900 align:middle line:84% I guess I'd call it identity exploration. 00:07:09.900 --> 00:07:14.190 align:middle line:84% So for people, or particular learners, who may not think of 00:07:14.190 --> 00:07:18.670 align:middle line:84% themselves as learners or as confident learners, that they 00:07:18.670 --> 00:07:22.780 align:middle line:84% can put that enemy behind them when they enter the game 00:07:22.780 --> 00:07:24.590 align:middle line:90% because, it's a game. 00:07:24.590 --> 00:07:25.960 align:middle line:90% And anyone can play it. 00:07:25.960 --> 00:07:28.610 align:middle line:84% Or, maybe I'm particularly good at games, 00:07:28.610 --> 00:07:30.380 align:middle line:90% so I can play games. 00:07:30.380 --> 00:07:35.023 align:middle line:84% And then I can suddenly realize that I might be good 00:07:35.023 --> 00:07:37.130 align:middle line:84% at other things as well, or I might be interested in other 00:07:37.130 --> 00:07:41.510 align:middle line:84% things that I wouldn't allow myself to discover whether or 00:07:41.510 --> 00:07:45.229 align:middle line:84% not I was interested, because it was a 00:07:45.229 --> 00:07:48.211 align:middle line:90% risky sphere to enter. 00:07:48.211 --> 00:07:49.760 align:middle line:90% So, current projects. 00:07:49.760 --> 00:07:51.840 align:middle line:84% We're doing a language learning game. 00:07:51.840 --> 00:07:56.320 align:middle line:84% It's attached to a massively multiplayer online game, with 00:07:56.320 --> 00:08:00.596 align:middle line:84% a grant targeting a population of Spanish-speaking high 00:08:00.596 --> 00:08:04.185 align:middle line:90% school students in the US. 00:08:04.185 --> 00:08:06.940 align:middle line:84% And that grant is from the Hewlett Foundation. 00:08:06.940 --> 00:08:10.796 align:middle line:84% And then we have a couple of other projects going as well. 00:08:10.796 --> 00:08:14.170 align:middle line:84% We've got science and some other stuff. 00:08:14.170 --> 00:08:16.110 align:middle line:90% That's about it. 00:08:16.110 --> 00:08:17.230 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: So I'm Scott Osterweil. 00:08:17.230 --> 00:08:20.794 align:middle line:84% I'm the research director of the Education Arcade. 00:08:20.794 --> 00:08:25.150 align:middle line:84% I have two titles, research director and creative director 00:08:25.150 --> 00:08:25.866 align:middle line:90% of the Education Arcade. 00:08:25.866 --> 00:08:28.934 align:middle line:84% But also one of the co-founders of the Learning 00:08:28.934 --> 00:08:31.300 align:middle line:90% Games Network. 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:35.380 align:middle line:84% And I don't want to repeat too much of what's been said. 00:08:35.380 --> 00:08:39.270 align:middle line:84% Except that at the same time as I do this for a living, I 00:08:39.270 --> 00:08:42.008 align:middle line:84% still struggle with the term educational game. 00:08:42.008 --> 00:08:44.175 align:middle line:84% Because it's not the way I think of what I do, primarily. 00:08:44.175 --> 00:08:46.050 align:middle line:84% The first game I designed, before 00:08:46.050 --> 00:08:49.370 align:middle line:90% working in this setting-- 00:08:49.370 --> 00:08:51.989 align:middle line:84% the first game I did was a commercial game. 00:08:51.989 --> 00:08:54.743 align:middle line:84% It wasn't designed as an educational game, it was 00:08:54.743 --> 00:08:56.120 align:middle line:84% designed just as a puzzle adventure game. 00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:57.350 align:middle line:84% It happened to be about math and logic, but that was just 00:08:57.350 --> 00:08:59.793 align:middle line:84% because that's what we thought was interesting. 00:08:59.793 --> 00:09:04.580 align:middle line:84% It got marketed because of the changes in the marketplace as 00:09:04.580 --> 00:09:04.850 align:middle line:90% edutainment. 00:09:04.850 --> 00:09:07.335 align:middle line:84% But when I started in the business there was no such 00:09:07.335 --> 00:09:08.790 align:middle line:90% word as edutainment. 00:09:08.790 --> 00:09:12.360 align:middle line:84% Most games, if you go back to the early 90s, were sort of 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:14.170 align:middle line:90% exploratory environments. 00:09:14.170 --> 00:09:18.400 align:middle line:84% Either they were twitch games or they were exploratory 00:09:18.400 --> 00:09:18.870 align:middle line:90% environments. 00:09:18.870 --> 00:09:20.950 align:middle line:84% And I have nothing against twitch games, but the 00:09:20.950 --> 00:09:21.260 align:middle line:84% exploratory environments were all about 00:09:21.260 --> 00:09:22.160 align:middle line:90% thinking and problem solving. 00:09:22.160 --> 00:09:24.455 align:middle line:84% And to me that's what's interesting. 00:09:24.455 --> 00:09:27.650 align:middle line:84% No matter what domain you're working in, whether it's 00:09:27.650 --> 00:09:29.500 align:middle line:84% mathematical or whether it's historical, the 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:31.230 align:middle line:90% processes are the same. 00:09:31.230 --> 00:09:35.130 align:middle line:84% And one slight twist I want to put on what Dan said, I think 00:09:35.130 --> 00:09:39.046 align:middle line:84% we're on the same page, but because he led with the idea 00:09:39.046 --> 00:09:39.920 align:middle line:84% of engagement, it's possible to think that I'm talking 00:09:39.920 --> 00:09:43.632 align:middle line:84% about games as an inducement to do something you 00:09:43.632 --> 00:09:43.990 align:middle line:90% don't want to do. 00:09:43.990 --> 00:09:46.880 align:middle line:84% And I think that games are an opportunity to discover how 00:09:46.880 --> 00:09:48.299 align:middle line:90% much fun something is. 00:09:48.299 --> 00:09:52.556 align:middle line:84% Which is very different from sort of, ah, we tricked you . 00:09:52.556 --> 00:09:56.886 align:middle line:84% But rather, this is really interesting, don't you like 00:09:56.886 --> 00:09:58.850 align:middle line:84% doing this and you can do more. 00:09:58.850 --> 00:10:01.470 align:middle line:84% And if that's all you can get out of it, that's fine. 00:10:01.470 --> 00:10:05.234 align:middle line:84% If you later realize, oh, I like doing that and that's 00:10:05.234 --> 00:10:07.669 align:middle line:84% math, and you do more of that, that's awesome. 00:10:07.669 --> 00:10:08.643 align:middle line:90% That's even better. 00:10:08.643 --> 00:10:11.018 align:middle line:84% And I think it's not so much because I just said it's fun, 00:10:11.018 --> 00:10:17.572 align:middle line:84% it's because I think the very process of thinking and 00:10:17.572 --> 00:10:18.822 align:middle line:90% problem-solving [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:10:18.822 --> 00:10:21.420 align:middle line:90% 00:10:21.420 --> 00:10:23.940 align:middle line:84% People do get that out of games, and I 00:10:23.940 --> 00:10:25.180 align:middle line:90% just think it's important. 00:10:25.180 --> 00:10:28.255 align:middle line:84% It's how people realize, if you enjoyed it in a game, you 00:10:28.255 --> 00:10:29.148 align:middle line:90% can enjoy it in life. 00:10:29.148 --> 00:10:31.380 align:middle line:84% And maybe this comes from my own realization . 00:10:31.380 --> 00:10:33.364 align:middle line:84% But when I was in sixth grade, instead of them saying the 00:10:33.364 --> 00:10:37.908 align:middle line:84% scientific method, and writing this list of dull steps on the 00:10:37.908 --> 00:10:41.366 align:middle line:84% blackboard, they said, play this puzzle. 00:10:41.366 --> 00:10:43.259 align:middle line:84% Now let's talk about how you solved the puzzle. 00:10:43.259 --> 00:10:44.330 align:middle line:90% That's science. 00:10:44.330 --> 00:10:49.770 align:middle line:84% I think that I might have ended up working at MIT. 00:10:49.770 --> 00:10:51.286 align:middle line:90% So anyway, that's my spiel. 00:10:51.286 --> 00:10:53.920 align:middle line:90% 00:10:53.920 --> 00:10:58.034 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: So talking a little bit about identifying how 00:10:58.034 --> 00:11:04.965 align:middle line:84% you're going to locate what's enjoyable about the thing that 00:11:04.965 --> 00:11:07.875 align:middle line:84% you want the people to engage with. 00:11:07.875 --> 00:11:11.755 align:middle line:84% Can you talk a little bit about, maybe in a recent 00:11:11.755 --> 00:11:14.665 align:middle line:84% project or in a past project, how you 00:11:14.665 --> 00:11:16.560 align:middle line:90% went about that process. 00:11:16.560 --> 00:11:20.362 align:middle line:84% Let's talk about the things that you worked out. 00:11:20.362 --> 00:11:24.306 align:middle line:84% And maybe sometimes it was more difficult and you had 00:11:24.306 --> 00:11:24.799 align:middle line:90% challenges. 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:30.715 align:middle line:84% Maybe sometimes it was just pretty obvious. 00:11:30.715 --> 00:11:32.687 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: I'll take it. 00:11:32.687 --> 00:11:33.180 align:middle line:90% So-- 00:11:33.180 --> 00:11:36.138 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:11:36.138 --> 00:11:39.096 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I'd like to congratulate Scott on his 00:11:39.096 --> 00:11:41.590 align:middle line:90% personal growth. 00:11:41.590 --> 00:11:45.774 align:middle line:84% So, with the language learning game that we're working on at 00:11:45.774 --> 00:11:48.470 align:middle line:84% the moment, there are approaches to language 00:11:48.470 --> 00:11:52.727 align:middle line:84% learning out there in the world that emphasize 00:11:52.727 --> 00:11:57.920 align:middle line:84% vocabulary memorization or grammar. 00:11:57.920 --> 00:12:05.410 align:middle line:84% Grammar, meaning, memorizing tables of conjugations and 00:12:05.410 --> 00:12:07.905 align:middle line:84% it's pretty much stripped of any sort 00:12:07.905 --> 00:12:09.610 align:middle line:90% of meaningful context. 00:12:09.610 --> 00:12:15.215 align:middle line:84% So, and a meaningful context could either be a text, and I 00:12:15.215 --> 00:12:18.898 align:middle line:84% use that word loosely, that is engaging. 00:12:18.898 --> 00:12:22.441 align:middle line:84% It could be a film that you want to see, that happens to 00:12:22.441 --> 00:12:25.280 align:middle line:84% be in a language that you are trying to learn. 00:12:25.280 --> 00:12:29.216 align:middle line:84% Or it could be a means of communication. 00:12:29.216 --> 00:12:31.696 align:middle line:84% After all, that's what language is. 00:12:31.696 --> 00:12:37.152 align:middle line:84% So, if you're thinking about using language as a means of 00:12:37.152 --> 00:12:39.136 align:middle line:84% communication, then of course you need to think about, well, 00:12:39.136 --> 00:12:40.128 align:middle line:90% what are you communicating? 00:12:40.128 --> 00:12:42.942 align:middle line:84% And, fortunately, games are full of communication. 00:12:42.942 --> 00:12:45.158 align:middle line:84% Between the game and the player, and the 00:12:45.158 --> 00:12:46.096 align:middle line:90% player and the game. 00:12:46.096 --> 00:12:48.675 align:middle line:84% And if it's a multiplayer game, between the 00:12:48.675 --> 00:12:49.450 align:middle line:90% players in the game. 00:12:49.450 --> 00:12:51.630 align:middle line:90% So it was almost-- 00:12:51.630 --> 00:12:54.070 align:middle line:84% if you start from that philosophy, it's almost a 00:12:54.070 --> 00:12:57.402 align:middle line:84% trivial exercise to say, OK, well, what's something 00:12:57.402 --> 00:13:00.270 align:middle line:84% interesting for people to talk about in a game? 00:13:00.270 --> 00:13:01.970 align:middle line:84% And so you come up with an interesting game. 00:13:01.970 --> 00:13:06.770 align:middle line:84% And instead of having the mechanic be, click this button 00:13:06.770 --> 00:13:13.500 align:middle line:84% to activate whatever the nuclear missile, you have to, 00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:14.530 align:middle line:90% you build in collaboration. 00:13:14.530 --> 00:13:17.783 align:middle line:84% So, I have part of the piece and you have part of the 00:13:17.783 --> 00:13:21.185 align:middle line:84% piece, and we need to talk about when to use what and in 00:13:21.185 --> 00:13:23.897 align:middle line:90% which context, and on whom. 00:13:23.897 --> 00:13:29.813 align:middle line:84% And so, suddenly we're talking and it doesn't even feel like 00:13:29.813 --> 00:13:32.771 align:middle line:84% we're learning a language, it just feels like 00:13:32.771 --> 00:13:34.743 align:middle line:90% we're playing a game. 00:13:34.743 --> 00:13:38.391 align:middle line:84% And then, if you're doing it in a language that you're 00:13:38.391 --> 00:13:40.690 align:middle line:84% attempting to learn, then there's the barrier there 00:13:40.690 --> 00:13:44.108 align:middle line:84% where you might want to say something that you just don't 00:13:44.108 --> 00:13:45.570 align:middle line:90% have the skill yet to say. 00:13:45.570 --> 00:13:49.318 align:middle line:84% So it's not quite as simple as just saying, hey, go talk. 00:13:49.318 --> 00:13:54.870 align:middle line:84% But there's slightly innovative ways that you can 00:13:54.870 --> 00:13:58.839 align:middle line:84% give people tools to allow themselves to express 00:13:58.839 --> 00:14:01.740 align:middle line:84% themselves in a fairly constrained context. 00:14:01.740 --> 00:14:02.840 align:middle line:84% So, because you've designed the game, you 00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:03.720 align:middle line:90% sort of rig the system. 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:06.684 align:middle line:84% You know that people aren't going to talk 00:14:06.684 --> 00:14:07.854 align:middle line:90% about absolutely anything. 00:14:07.854 --> 00:14:11.440 align:middle line:84% Maybe they will, in the chat, but primarily in the game 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.520 align:middle line:84% you're incentivizing their discussion around 00:14:13.520 --> 00:14:14.960 align:middle line:90% a particular topic. 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:19.280 align:middle line:84% So if you give them tools to discuss that particular topic, 00:14:19.280 --> 00:14:21.670 align:middle line:84% not only does it make the gameplay more efficient, but 00:14:21.670 --> 00:14:24.406 align:middle line:84% that's also how the learning can happen. 00:14:24.406 --> 00:14:27.020 align:middle line:84% Because there can be some sort of selection mechanism, 00:14:27.020 --> 00:14:31.512 align:middle line:84% whereby I am able to say something that I want to say, 00:14:31.512 --> 00:14:34.954 align:middle line:84% but without needing to bring all of the knowledge of how to 00:14:34.954 --> 00:14:35.810 align:middle line:90% construct that on my own. 00:14:35.810 --> 00:14:38.327 align:middle line:84% There's some amount of, oh, I can just recognize that that's 00:14:38.327 --> 00:14:41.810 align:middle line:90% more or less what I want. 00:14:41.810 --> 00:14:44.300 align:middle line:84% And then, by seeing it repeatedly and by seeing other 00:14:44.300 --> 00:14:48.687 align:middle line:84% players use the same tools to communicate, and knowing that 00:14:48.687 --> 00:14:52.655 align:middle line:84% the communication in a certain context is valid, that I can 00:14:52.655 --> 00:14:55.512 align:middle line:84% pay close attention to that, and start to become 00:14:55.512 --> 00:14:56.240 align:middle line:90% familiar and learn. 00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:00.220 align:middle line:84% But it's not, I have to memorize it so 00:15:00.220 --> 00:15:01.810 align:middle line:90% that I can use it. 00:15:01.810 --> 00:15:06.088 align:middle line:84% It's, I'm using it and I'm using it so much that I just 00:15:06.088 --> 00:15:07.576 align:middle line:90% can actually learn it. 00:15:07.576 --> 00:15:09.064 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Question on that. 00:15:09.064 --> 00:15:13.280 align:middle line:84% So, if you're trying to encourage me to talk Spanish 00:15:13.280 --> 00:15:14.817 align:middle line:84% and you talk Spanish and we're trying to work something out, 00:15:14.817 --> 00:15:16.008 align:middle line:84% what prevents you from just typing something in English 00:15:16.008 --> 00:15:17.000 align:middle line:84% and having you read it in English? 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:18.883 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Right, so it depends on the game. 00:15:18.883 --> 00:15:21.670 align:middle line:84% And in some games that's totally fine. 00:15:21.670 --> 00:15:25.700 align:middle line:84% In other games we have teams moderate other teams. 00:15:25.700 --> 00:15:29.280 align:middle line:84% In other games, we have some sort of communication tool 00:15:29.280 --> 00:15:31.400 align:middle line:90% that's not free text entry. 00:15:31.400 --> 00:15:37.910 align:middle line:84% So it's not-- so one extreme is, here's a list of 10 00:15:37.910 --> 00:15:39.240 align:middle line:90% sentences that you could say. 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:40.420 align:middle line:90% Click one of them. 00:15:40.420 --> 00:15:43.960 align:middle line:84% And that's not the direction we tend to go in. 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:47.390 align:middle line:84% But that's an example of how to communicate something 00:15:47.390 --> 00:15:49.170 align:middle line:90% without free text entry. 00:15:49.170 --> 00:15:51.340 align:middle line:84% So there could be some sort of sentence 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:53.450 align:middle line:90% construction kit, let's say. 00:15:53.450 --> 00:15:57.370 align:middle line:84% Where you have a pool of different words that you can 00:15:57.370 --> 00:16:02.160 align:middle line:84% assemble and a variety of orders to express a small set 00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:04.460 align:middle line:90% of meanings. 00:16:04.460 --> 00:16:07.080 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And if you think about it, games like 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:12.220 align:middle line:84% Charades or Pictionary, the need to communicate with 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:14.112 align:middle line:84% constraints doesn't stop us from necessarily 00:16:14.112 --> 00:16:15.058 align:middle line:90% enjoying the game. 00:16:15.058 --> 00:16:16.950 align:middle line:90% It could make it interesting. 00:16:16.950 --> 00:16:20.870 align:middle line:90% So, that's part of the game. 00:16:20.870 --> 00:16:23.740 align:middle line:84% Part of our insight was thinking about our own 00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:28.810 align:middle line:84% experiences learning language in terms of the game of say, 00:16:28.810 --> 00:16:31.720 align:middle line:84% and this gets at my core idea, which is to find the game 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:33.301 align:middle line:90% that's already there. 00:16:33.301 --> 00:16:36.035 align:middle line:84% So, a game that I always play when I'm traveling with 00:16:36.035 --> 00:16:40.168 align:middle line:84% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] when I travel to France, where I speak the 00:16:40.168 --> 00:16:43.134 align:middle line:84% language sort of, is how far can I get into a conversation 00:16:43.134 --> 00:16:44.510 align:middle line:84% before they figure out I'm American. 00:16:44.510 --> 00:16:46.460 align:middle line:90% So that becomes a game. 00:16:46.460 --> 00:16:52.283 align:middle line:84% And so the whole, and how can I have or if I notice someone 00:16:52.283 --> 00:16:56.540 align:middle line:84% who's French, how much of a conversation 00:16:56.540 --> 00:16:57.486 align:middle line:90% can we have in French? 00:16:57.486 --> 00:16:58.432 align:middle line:90% That's a game for me. 00:16:58.432 --> 00:16:59.380 align:middle line:84% At that point it becomes kind of fun. 00:16:59.380 --> 00:17:01.100 align:middle line:84% So I think we were just really trying to access that. 00:17:01.100 --> 00:17:03.640 align:middle line:84% And I think that really gets back to your larger question. 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:06.540 align:middle line:84% When you take on something new, I want to know where's 00:17:06.540 --> 00:17:08.280 align:middle line:90% the game already in this? 00:17:08.280 --> 00:17:09.829 align:middle line:90% And I [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:17:09.829 --> 00:17:13.468 align:middle line:84% the first game I think, it was math, and the colleague with 00:17:13.468 --> 00:17:16.349 align:middle line:84% whom I co-designed the game, we both spent a lot of time 00:17:16.349 --> 00:17:18.863 align:middle line:84% saying, when we were kids, how did we play with numbers, what 00:17:18.863 --> 00:17:20.181 align:middle line:84% kind of things did we do, what was 00:17:20.181 --> 00:17:21.139 align:middle line:90% interesting us with numbers? 00:17:21.139 --> 00:17:24.500 align:middle line:84% We really try to access our own play. 00:17:24.500 --> 00:17:31.540 align:middle line:84% And similarly, now, if I can try to read practitioners in 00:17:31.540 --> 00:17:33.992 align:middle line:84% the field and say, what do you think about the shower, when 00:17:33.992 --> 00:17:37.278 align:middle line:84% you run it-- where's the-- because that's where the play 00:17:37.278 --> 00:17:39.407 align:middle line:84% is actually happening in the field. 00:17:39.407 --> 00:17:43.040 align:middle line:84% And I think that's where people love their jobs, it's 00:17:43.040 --> 00:17:44.880 align:middle line:84% the play in it that they love about it. 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.993 align:middle line:84% And that's what I think you're trying to access in any 00:17:47.993 --> 00:17:48.712 align:middle line:90% simulation. 00:17:48.712 --> 00:17:53.280 align:middle line:84% So Dan, talking about the language one, we're doing a 00:17:53.280 --> 00:17:56.684 align:middle line:84% game with the Royal Shakespeare Company, if we can 00:17:56.684 --> 00:17:58.840 align:middle line:84% get funding, around The Tempest. 00:17:58.840 --> 00:18:02.820 align:middle line:84% And we're trying to figure out how to make a game of it. 00:18:02.820 --> 00:18:06.890 align:middle line:84% And I realized that part of the change with Shakespeare 00:18:06.890 --> 00:18:11.434 align:middle line:84% is, to some degree, the language, too, and sort of 00:18:11.434 --> 00:18:12.980 align:middle line:84% making sense out of the language which is now somewhat 00:18:12.980 --> 00:18:14.796 align:middle line:84% archaic but really interesting. 00:18:14.796 --> 00:18:21.020 align:middle line:84% And so we tried to make a game that's sort of a puzzle that 00:18:21.020 --> 00:18:22.970 align:middle line:84% you assemble by finding the pieces of the play and 00:18:22.970 --> 00:18:24.340 align:middle line:90% associative things. 00:18:24.340 --> 00:18:29.428 align:middle line:84% So you find a hedgehog and you find some text that makes a 00:18:29.428 --> 00:18:32.003 align:middle line:84% reference, that somehow makes you think of the hedgehog and 00:18:32.003 --> 00:18:32.635 align:middle line:84% you put them together and you actually start building a 00:18:32.635 --> 00:18:33.320 align:middle line:90% visual puzzle. 00:18:33.320 --> 00:18:36.095 align:middle line:84% So it's really a challenge of making sense of the 00:18:36.095 --> 00:18:37.580 align:middle line:90% significance of text. 00:18:37.580 --> 00:18:42.530 align:middle line:84% It [UNINTELLIGIBLE] you and your picture of Shakespeare's 00:18:42.530 --> 00:18:45.030 align:middle line:84% play, The Tempest, starts to emerge through the gameplay. 00:18:45.030 --> 00:18:48.810 align:middle line:84% So a story sort of appears that way, the way a picture 00:18:48.810 --> 00:18:50.630 align:middle line:90% appears in a jigsaw puzzle. 00:18:50.630 --> 00:18:53.964 align:middle line:84% So it's a game you play without knowing, without ever 00:18:53.964 --> 00:18:55.530 align:middle line:90% having seen it. 00:18:55.530 --> 00:18:59.320 align:middle line:84% But part of the experience of theater is the way stories 00:18:59.320 --> 00:19:03.040 align:middle line:84% emerge from different patterns in the game. 00:19:03.040 --> 00:19:04.624 align:middle line:84% We're still trying to make a story [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] 00:19:04.624 --> 00:19:05.874 align:middle line:90% through exploration. 00:19:05.874 --> 00:19:10.050 align:middle line:90% 00:19:10.050 --> 00:19:13.100 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Maybe if I talk about my career as coming-- 00:19:13.100 --> 00:19:14.960 align:middle line:84% I think I come from an area where we 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:17.120 align:middle line:90% make really bad games. 00:19:17.120 --> 00:19:21.266 align:middle line:84% There's a saying that education games are like 00:19:21.266 --> 00:19:22.210 align:middle line:90% chocolate-covered broccoli. 00:19:22.210 --> 00:19:23.630 align:middle line:84% It's not healthy and not sweet. 00:19:23.630 --> 00:19:26.680 align:middle line:84% And I actually come from a background where teachers or 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:30.070 align:middle line:84% educators are asked to build games for somebody. 00:19:30.070 --> 00:19:31.430 align:middle line:90% And what you have is contents. 00:19:31.430 --> 00:19:35.490 align:middle line:84% And I can say that, because I think most of my colleagues 00:19:35.490 --> 00:19:36.080 align:middle line:90% seem to know better. 00:19:36.080 --> 00:19:37.770 align:middle line:84% They thought, OK, I have content. 00:19:37.770 --> 00:19:40.052 align:middle line:84% That content is good, and now I just make do with a song and 00:19:40.052 --> 00:19:42.293 align:middle line:90% the kids are going to love it. 00:19:42.293 --> 00:19:46.660 align:middle line:84% And I think, as you all see, Jeremy, we all know how quick 00:19:46.660 --> 00:19:49.918 align:middle line:90% kids realize it is not fun. 00:19:49.918 --> 00:19:55.468 align:middle line:84% And I think there are tons of bad games out there that ruin 00:19:55.468 --> 00:19:58.947 align:middle line:84% the reputation of educational games in a sense. 00:19:58.947 --> 00:20:02.080 align:middle line:84% And coming here to MIT and working with Scott and people 00:20:02.080 --> 00:20:05.520 align:middle line:84% like Dan, that I realized more, the question is more, 00:20:05.520 --> 00:20:09.498 align:middle line:84% what makes us curious about the problem, about the 00:20:09.498 --> 00:20:10.680 align:middle line:90% learning content. 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:11.540 align:middle line:84% Of course, we can have the content of the game, something 00:20:11.540 --> 00:20:12.850 align:middle line:90% we don't even have to call it. 00:20:12.850 --> 00:20:14.090 align:middle line:90% It's more abstract. 00:20:14.090 --> 00:20:17.650 align:middle line:84% We look for metaphors that are kind of like, if you can 00:20:17.650 --> 00:20:20.780 align:middle line:84% understand how to be interested in history without 00:20:20.780 --> 00:20:24.260 align:middle line:84% really learning all the real data maybe you learn in other 00:20:24.260 --> 00:20:26.130 align:middle line:90% history, but you get interested 00:20:26.130 --> 00:20:27.700 align:middle line:90% in how history works. 00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:31.240 align:middle line:84% And I think that's kind of like what I learned here and I 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:36.630 align:middle line:84% realize now that it's really useful, that we don't use the 00:20:36.630 --> 00:20:38.860 align:middle line:84% chocolate covered broccoli any more. 00:20:38.860 --> 00:20:42.070 align:middle line:84% We ask more about, what do we really want? 00:20:42.070 --> 00:20:44.890 align:middle line:84% Do we want to have something that is healthy or sweet, or 00:20:44.890 --> 00:20:47.340 align:middle line:84% something different, let's cook it. 00:20:47.340 --> 00:20:49.500 align:middle line:84% Let's not just combine two things. 00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:53.930 align:middle line:84% And I think there's something that also-- the good 00:20:53.930 --> 00:20:55.820 align:middle line:84% educational games that are out there are 00:20:55.820 --> 00:20:59.180 align:middle line:90% heading in that direction. 00:20:59.180 --> 00:21:03.530 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Do you have counter-examples from your 00:21:03.530 --> 00:21:09.199 align:middle line:84% work, of something that seemed fruitful but then kind of 00:21:09.199 --> 00:21:13.095 align:middle line:84% maybe you were trying to address some subject area and 00:21:13.095 --> 00:21:16.922 align:middle line:84% then were trying to marry some specific game mechanics you 00:21:16.922 --> 00:21:19.180 align:middle line:84% thought might work, but were disappointed? 00:21:19.180 --> 00:21:21.710 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I could talk about one that's not resolved 00:21:21.710 --> 00:21:24.480 align:middle line:90% yet, that I'm struggling with. 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.350 align:middle line:90% 00:21:27.350 --> 00:21:31.081 align:middle line:84% We're doing a game with a professor here at Ocean, in 00:21:31.081 --> 00:21:34.810 align:middle line:84% environmental engineering, about microbes. 00:21:34.810 --> 00:21:38.714 align:middle line:84% He does all his work study on microbes in the ocean. 00:21:38.714 --> 00:21:40.178 align:middle line:90% Which I've learned about. 00:21:40.178 --> 00:21:42.630 align:middle line:84% Half the biomass of the ocean are microbes. 00:21:42.630 --> 00:21:44.954 align:middle line:84% And we know almost nothing about them, because until 00:21:44.954 --> 00:21:48.745 align:middle line:84% people like him, he's one of a few, built apparatus to study 00:21:48.745 --> 00:21:51.520 align:middle line:84% ocean-like conditions in the laboratory, we had no way of 00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:53.050 align:middle line:84% knowing what was going on with them. 00:21:53.050 --> 00:21:56.140 align:middle line:84% So that's interesting if you get into it. 00:21:56.140 --> 00:21:58.703 align:middle line:84% It's not something that middle school kids are 00:21:58.703 --> 00:22:02.030 align:middle line:90% dying to know about. 00:22:02.030 --> 00:22:07.343 align:middle line:84% So we're doing a simulation where the premise is that 00:22:07.343 --> 00:22:11.584 align:middle line:84% you've got a part of the ocean that's dead and you're trying 00:22:11.584 --> 00:22:14.828 align:middle line:84% to re-engineer it by introducing nano-bots, which 00:22:14.828 --> 00:22:15.826 align:middle line:90% you can build. 00:22:15.826 --> 00:22:19.818 align:middle line:84% And these nano-bots would in effect simulate the functions 00:22:19.818 --> 00:22:28.301 align:middle line:84% of what looked like processing oxygen. 00:22:28.301 --> 00:22:35.786 align:middle line:84% Or rather, plants processing either oxygen and producing 00:22:35.786 --> 00:22:38.090 align:middle line:84% CO2 and energy, or the reverse. 00:22:38.090 --> 00:22:40.090 align:middle line:90% Taking CO2 and sunlight and-- 00:22:40.090 --> 00:22:41.240 align:middle line:90% Anyway. 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:45.506 align:middle line:84% So, the challenge, we made a sort of interesting playable 00:22:45.506 --> 00:22:47.530 align:middle line:84% simulation where you build the stuff. 00:22:47.530 --> 00:22:56.810 align:middle line:84% But I haven't figured out yet I'm struggling with, have we 00:22:56.810 --> 00:23:00.369 align:middle line:84% found a way to entice you to do this, though, without 00:23:00.369 --> 00:23:01.770 align:middle line:84% having to give you too much information? 00:23:01.770 --> 00:23:05.380 align:middle line:84% And I'm a big believer that a game-- this game does not 00:23:05.380 --> 00:23:09.420 align:middle line:84% start with instructions, because I don't believe games 00:23:09.420 --> 00:23:10.875 align:middle line:84% should ever start with instructions. 00:23:10.875 --> 00:23:13.020 align:middle line:84% But I'm still struggling with the information we're 00:23:13.020 --> 00:23:13.380 align:middle line:90% providing along the way. 00:23:13.380 --> 00:23:17.620 align:middle line:84% There's too much read this now, as opposed to-- and I 00:23:17.620 --> 00:23:20.530 align:middle line:84% think the problem is, because simulations are very wide open 00:23:20.530 --> 00:23:23.390 align:middle line:84% environments, and it's very hard to constrain a simulation 00:23:23.390 --> 00:23:26.640 align:middle line:84% enough that the player goes, ah, now I understand what 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:28.764 align:middle line:90% variable I just used. 00:23:28.764 --> 00:23:33.246 align:middle line:84% And particularly because kids have a tendency to see 00:23:33.246 --> 00:23:35.238 align:middle line:90% simulations as black boxes. 00:23:35.238 --> 00:23:38.475 align:middle line:84% So they'll change three variables at once and not 00:23:38.475 --> 00:23:41.089 align:middle line:84% notice they've changed three variables, and not think about 00:23:41.089 --> 00:23:41.712 align:middle line:90% what each variable was. 00:23:41.712 --> 00:23:45.480 align:middle line:84% They just don't have the practice of changing-- 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:47.105 align:middle line:84% really, controlling three variables. 00:23:47.105 --> 00:23:49.750 align:middle line:84% And if you don't do that, simulations do become black 00:23:49.750 --> 00:23:52.530 align:middle line:84% boxes, and I'm still struggling with how to-- not 00:23:52.530 --> 00:23:56.941 align:middle line:84% to, say, mark the kid down the road and say, OK, now make 00:23:56.941 --> 00:23:58.578 align:middle line:84% this choice, now make that choice. 00:23:58.578 --> 00:24:02.506 align:middle line:84% Because that's too constrained and not fun. 00:24:02.506 --> 00:24:06.311 align:middle line:84% I want to have them have a lot of choices but also have them 00:24:06.311 --> 00:24:08.398 align:middle line:84% understand the effect of the choices that they've made. 00:24:08.398 --> 00:24:10.362 align:middle line:84% Maybe that's the best way to sum it. 00:24:10.362 --> 00:24:12.817 align:middle line:84% So just processing the [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] 00:24:12.817 --> 00:24:16.745 align:middle line:90% 00:24:16.745 --> 00:24:19.200 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I can give a better example. 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:20.875 align:middle line:84% So, I was working on this game. 00:24:20.875 --> 00:24:23.480 align:middle line:84% I wasn't even working on that, to my excuse. 00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:25.663 align:middle line:84% I was beginning to work with these people, then realized 00:24:25.663 --> 00:24:28.200 align:middle line:90% it's not the way I want to go. 00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:30.600 align:middle line:90% And then I stepped out of it. 00:24:30.600 --> 00:24:31.930 align:middle line:84% And I think it's a good example of what 00:24:31.930 --> 00:24:32.770 align:middle line:90% you shouldn't do. 00:24:32.770 --> 00:24:37.530 align:middle line:84% So this small town in Austria is using their waste to 00:24:37.530 --> 00:24:40.620 align:middle line:90% produce renewable energy. 00:24:40.620 --> 00:24:41.435 align:middle line:90% It's really interesting. 00:24:41.435 --> 00:24:45.030 align:middle line:84% The town is somewhere in the countryside and nobody was 00:24:45.030 --> 00:24:45.170 align:middle line:90% interested. 00:24:45.170 --> 00:24:48.570 align:middle line:84% It makes so much power now that they can give power for 00:24:48.570 --> 00:24:52.350 align:middle line:84% free in their town to companies and the neighboring 00:24:52.350 --> 00:24:54.690 align:middle line:84% companies in neighboring towns. 00:24:54.690 --> 00:24:56.370 align:middle line:84% So a lot of people are interested 00:24:56.370 --> 00:24:57.970 align:middle line:90% in how they do that. 00:24:57.970 --> 00:25:00.260 align:middle line:84% And we thought, well, we want to be a cool town, what if we 00:25:00.260 --> 00:25:03.870 align:middle line:84% make a game instead of just providing the content. 00:25:03.870 --> 00:25:07.630 align:middle line:84% But what they did, they gave us all the content and said, 00:25:07.630 --> 00:25:08.830 align:middle line:84% this is what you should teach the people. 00:25:08.830 --> 00:25:11.950 align:middle line:90% And make it fun. 00:25:11.950 --> 00:25:15.400 align:middle line:84% And in the end, these people were sitting together, OK, 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:16.670 align:middle line:90% what do people like? 00:25:16.670 --> 00:25:17.230 align:middle line:90% Comics? 00:25:17.230 --> 00:25:20.110 align:middle line:84% And you have to a character that is moving around. 00:25:20.110 --> 00:25:22.780 align:middle line:84% And they would make small multiple choice tests. 00:25:22.780 --> 00:25:27.860 align:middle line:84% And afterwards they get their rewards, and it says your name 00:25:27.860 --> 00:25:30.390 align:middle line:84% and it says you're trained in that discipline. 00:25:30.390 --> 00:25:34.150 align:middle line:84% And what was interesting for me, they built the game. 00:25:34.150 --> 00:25:35.600 align:middle line:90% And the game's been bashed. 00:25:35.600 --> 00:25:37.690 align:middle line:84% And it's very sad and it's horrible. 00:25:37.690 --> 00:25:41.030 align:middle line:84% But the funniest thing for me was, who was the target group? 00:25:41.030 --> 00:25:42.770 align:middle line:84% And they never talked about that. 00:25:42.770 --> 00:25:45.150 align:middle line:84% They always thought who cares about target groups, we make 00:25:45.150 --> 00:25:47.545 align:middle line:84% this game, everybody's going to love it, everybody's so 00:25:47.545 --> 00:25:47.670 align:middle line:90% interested. 00:25:47.670 --> 00:25:51.987 align:middle line:84% The idea was who decides if you can do that in 00:25:51.987 --> 00:25:53.420 align:middle line:90% the majors of towns. 00:25:53.420 --> 00:25:57.175 align:middle line:84% They say, well, we want to have a company like that. 00:25:57.175 --> 00:25:59.460 align:middle line:84% And so now we're talking about Austrian, 00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:00.800 align:middle line:90% European, majors of towns. 00:26:00.800 --> 00:26:03.640 align:middle line:84% And they are normally fat and like to drink wine. 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.250 align:middle line:84% Normally they sit with another mayor and have lunch and then 00:26:06.250 --> 00:26:07.620 align:middle line:90% they say, wow, this works. 00:26:07.620 --> 00:26:09.432 align:middle line:84% And then they decide to do it or not. 00:26:09.432 --> 00:26:12.190 align:middle line:84% But now they were sending these games to majors who did 00:26:12.190 --> 00:26:14.910 align:middle line:84% not know at all what to do with this. 00:26:14.910 --> 00:26:16.940 align:middle line:84% They couldn't get into the game. 00:26:16.940 --> 00:26:19.500 align:middle line:84% And so, not that the game was bad. 00:26:19.500 --> 00:26:21.670 align:middle line:84% They didn't even think about their target group. 00:26:21.670 --> 00:26:27.260 align:middle line:84% And I think that one aspect that interested me the most 00:26:27.260 --> 00:26:32.253 align:middle line:84% is, you have to have the context of the game as a 00:26:32.253 --> 00:26:32.505 align:middle line:90% learning experience. 00:26:32.505 --> 00:26:33.830 align:middle line:90% It has to be suitable. 00:26:33.830 --> 00:26:35.270 align:middle line:84% If this is not happening, you can play the 00:26:35.270 --> 00:26:37.030 align:middle line:90% most interesting game. 00:26:37.030 --> 00:26:40.870 align:middle line:84% If someone doesn't get the problem, doesn't get engaged 00:26:40.870 --> 00:26:45.130 align:middle line:84% to the problem, it's just something happening. 00:26:45.130 --> 00:26:46.800 align:middle line:90% It's not really interesting. 00:26:46.800 --> 00:26:49.790 align:middle line:84% And I think that's a major problem that this 00:26:49.790 --> 00:26:55.200 align:middle line:90% example was totally . 00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:59.610 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: So, know who you're designing your game for. 00:26:59.610 --> 00:27:02.870 align:middle line:84% And how do you think they get engaged in the games. 00:27:02.870 --> 00:27:04.120 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Yes. 00:27:04.120 --> 00:27:09.010 align:middle line:90% 00:27:09.010 --> 00:27:12.082 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Just to do a simplistic example, but it's 00:27:12.082 --> 00:27:13.510 align:middle line:90% one [UNINTELLIGIBLE] example. 00:27:13.510 --> 00:27:16.740 align:middle line:84% If I wanted a game for my mother, who occasionally would 00:27:16.740 --> 00:27:18.080 align:middle line:90% play a casual game. 00:27:18.080 --> 00:27:21.682 align:middle line:84% I wouldn't do a massively multiplayer game with lots of 00:27:21.682 --> 00:27:22.630 align:middle line:90% stuff going around. 00:27:22.630 --> 00:27:24.350 align:middle line:84% All these senior citizens are going to get into this 00:27:24.350 --> 00:27:25.130 align:middle line:90% massively multiplayer game. 00:27:25.130 --> 00:27:28.463 align:middle line:84% I mean, it sounds like it would be really great, to come 00:27:28.463 --> 00:27:29.005 align:middle line:84% up with a massively multiplayer game for senior 00:27:29.005 --> 00:27:29.890 align:middle line:84% citizens, because of their eyesight. 00:27:29.890 --> 00:27:34.370 align:middle line:84% But you also know that they didn't grow up with computers, 00:27:34.370 --> 00:27:37.810 align:middle line:84% and they're not going to be able to navigate a 3D space. 00:27:37.810 --> 00:27:42.726 align:middle line:84% So, that's a simplified example of why it's important 00:27:42.726 --> 00:27:43.714 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE]. 00:27:43.714 --> 00:27:46.925 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: And what is really good about it is that game 00:27:46.925 --> 00:27:49.148 align:middle line:84% like [? Revish ?] the cancer game, maybe 00:27:49.148 --> 00:27:51.124 align:middle line:90% some of you know about. 00:27:51.124 --> 00:27:53.594 align:middle line:84% It's a cancer game [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:27:53.594 --> 00:27:55.470 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: It was actually mentioned in the reading 00:27:55.470 --> 00:27:55.820 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:27:55.820 --> 00:27:58.164 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: But it's hopefully one of the best 00:27:58.164 --> 00:27:59.130 align:middle line:84% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] learning games out there. 00:27:59.130 --> 00:28:02.295 align:middle line:84% But the good thing about them is, people that play that game 00:28:02.295 --> 00:28:03.870 align:middle line:90% have cancer. 00:28:03.870 --> 00:28:07.970 align:middle line:84% So you have the problem to the game is so close that people 00:28:07.970 --> 00:28:12.110 align:middle line:84% who do not play the game say oh, I don't care about cancer. 00:28:12.110 --> 00:28:13.645 align:middle line:84% They care about cancer because they have cancer. 00:28:13.645 --> 00:28:17.120 align:middle line:84% The game is about cancer, and the way chemotherapy works. 00:28:17.120 --> 00:28:21.700 align:middle line:84% So the context of the engagement is automatically, 00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:23.220 align:middle line:90% the problem is solved. 00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:25.912 align:middle line:90% But what about this cancer. 00:28:25.912 --> 00:28:28.090 align:middle line:84% What about a learning game where it's 00:28:28.090 --> 00:28:28.816 align:middle line:90% about language learning? 00:28:28.816 --> 00:28:30.053 align:middle line:84% Are these people already interested 00:28:30.053 --> 00:28:31.000 align:middle line:90% to learn the language? 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:33.510 align:middle line:84% Do they come there with their language problem, or do we 00:28:33.510 --> 00:28:37.210 align:middle line:84% want to introduce them to the problem or show them maybe you 00:28:37.210 --> 00:28:40.120 align:middle line:84% don't have to be afraid to learn a language or whatever. 00:28:40.120 --> 00:28:41.508 align:middle line:84% This question has to be addressed at 00:28:41.508 --> 00:28:42.670 align:middle line:90% a very early stage. 00:28:42.670 --> 00:28:46.443 align:middle line:84% Otherwise, if you start designing and then address the 00:28:46.443 --> 00:28:47.856 align:middle line:90% question, it's late. 00:28:47.856 --> 00:28:50.860 align:middle line:90% 00:28:50.860 --> 00:28:55.036 align:middle line:84% The question is sort of about the explicit versus the 00:28:55.036 --> 00:28:55.964 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:28:55.964 --> 00:28:59.140 align:middle line:84% So if you play [UNINTELLIGIBLE], that was 00:28:59.140 --> 00:29:04.556 align:middle line:84% really designed to introduce, basically, an idea that people 00:29:04.556 --> 00:29:07.780 align:middle line:84% have struggled with, which are what position and velocity 00:29:07.780 --> 00:29:09.380 align:middle line:90% graphs actually mean. 00:29:09.380 --> 00:29:12.810 align:middle line:84% But the game doesn't mention velocity and it doesn't 00:29:12.810 --> 00:29:13.550 align:middle line:90% mention graphs. 00:29:13.550 --> 00:29:17.924 align:middle line:84% And in fact in the same reviews that it got lots of 00:29:17.924 --> 00:29:20.053 align:middle line:84% good reviews when it came out, a lot of them said, I had no 00:29:20.053 --> 00:29:21.303 align:middle line:90% idea this was educational. 00:29:21.303 --> 00:29:24.000 align:middle line:90% 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:27.200 align:middle line:84% I wouldn't argue that that's fine, that people don't 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:30.728 align:middle line:84% necessarily know that as they're playing the game, that 00:29:30.728 --> 00:29:32.660 align:middle line:84% they are still building up some conceptual knowledge. 00:29:32.660 --> 00:29:36.050 align:middle line:84% I think that some large percentage of the people who 00:29:36.050 --> 00:29:37.560 align:middle line:84% play a game in that setting will probably play the game 00:29:37.560 --> 00:29:40.962 align:middle line:84% and do nothing else but then three months later 00:29:40.962 --> 00:29:41.001 align:middle line:90% they'll have gone. 00:29:41.001 --> 00:29:42.251 align:middle line:84% That experience for most people will not be resilient. 00:29:42.251 --> 00:29:43.878 align:middle line:90% 00:29:43.878 --> 00:29:46.994 align:middle line:84% Not because they didn't enjoy it, but because they have lots 00:29:46.994 --> 00:29:49.610 align:middle line:84% of things going on in life and there's more information 00:29:49.610 --> 00:29:51.384 align:middle line:90% coming out of [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:29:51.384 --> 00:29:53.986 align:middle line:84% On the other hand, the kid plays that game and then you 00:29:53.986 --> 00:29:55.900 align:middle line:84% sit down and have a conversation about velocity 00:29:55.900 --> 00:29:58.220 align:middle line:84% and position graphs, there might be some real meaningful 00:29:58.220 --> 00:29:59.192 align:middle line:90% learning that occurs. 00:29:59.192 --> 00:30:01.740 align:middle line:84% And so I think it's really important to not overreach in 00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:03.620 align:middle line:90% that sense. 00:30:03.620 --> 00:30:06.508 align:middle line:84% I try to avoid, although we still do the saying that our 00:30:06.508 --> 00:30:07.496 align:middle line:90% games teach. 00:30:07.496 --> 00:30:10.954 align:middle line:84% Because I think teaching is a much more active and explicit 00:30:10.954 --> 00:30:12.436 align:middle line:90% activity to learn games too. 00:30:12.436 --> 00:30:16.060 align:middle line:84% I think our games let people play with them, let people 00:30:16.060 --> 00:30:16.380 align:middle line:90% learn from them. 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:20.010 align:middle line:84% And then just like if you read a book, the book 00:30:20.010 --> 00:30:20.632 align:middle line:90% doesn't teach anything. 00:30:20.632 --> 00:30:22.998 align:middle line:84% The book puts information [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:30:22.998 --> 00:30:27.853 align:middle line:84% And I think that's really part of, I think, we have to be 00:30:27.853 --> 00:30:31.464 align:middle line:84% modest and humble about it as we do this stuff. 00:30:31.464 --> 00:30:32.740 align:middle line:84% But that was [UNINTELLIGIBLE] as the challenge 00:30:32.740 --> 00:30:33.340 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:30:33.340 --> 00:30:36.500 align:middle line:84% of thinking about, if you do want some learning to occur, 00:30:36.500 --> 00:30:38.240 align:middle line:84% where do you want the learning to occur. 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:41.560 align:middle line:84% Is this for peoples' personal lives, is it a mediated 00:30:41.560 --> 00:30:42.606 align:middle line:90% setting like a hospital? 00:30:42.606 --> 00:30:46.890 align:middle line:84% Or is it in a school-- those are really 00:30:46.890 --> 00:30:49.760 align:middle line:90% critical questions . 00:30:49.760 --> 00:30:52.876 align:middle line:84% It's not just the learning but the setting. 00:30:52.876 --> 00:30:55.834 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: And who's introducing a game to them, 00:30:55.834 --> 00:30:56.820 align:middle line:90% for instance. 00:30:56.820 --> 00:30:59.090 align:middle line:90% Is it a teacher, a doctor. 00:30:59.090 --> 00:30:59.840 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And were they playing. 00:30:59.840 --> 00:31:02.504 align:middle line:84% Like with Labyrinth, which is this middle school math game 00:31:02.504 --> 00:31:04.870 align:middle line:84% that Dan and I were working on. 00:31:04.870 --> 00:31:09.790 align:middle line:84% We knew that if we didn't push in another direction, the 00:31:09.790 --> 00:31:12.440 align:middle line:84% implementation was going to be, well print this game and 00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:14.074 align:middle line:90% it gets played in classrooms. 00:31:14.074 --> 00:31:16.720 align:middle line:90% If you've ever seen-- 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:20.342 align:middle line:84% if you remember your own computer labs in school, that 00:31:20.342 --> 00:31:23.057 align:middle line:84% that was [UNINTELLIGIBLE], which is true actually for a 00:31:23.057 --> 00:31:23.890 align:middle line:90% lot of [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:31:23.890 --> 00:31:26.530 align:middle line:84% It meant every now and then you had to line up and walk 00:31:26.530 --> 00:31:29.165 align:middle line:84% down the hall to this other place, that you would only get 00:31:29.165 --> 00:31:30.150 align:middle line:90% to occasionally. 00:31:30.150 --> 00:31:32.734 align:middle line:84% And by the time you settled into your chairs and booted it 00:31:32.734 --> 00:31:34.942 align:middle line:84% up, you had maybe 20 minutes on the computer and then it 00:31:34.942 --> 00:31:35.200 align:middle line:90% was time to go. 00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:38.242 align:middle line:84% So if you design something for schools, you're talking about 00:31:38.242 --> 00:31:42.037 align:middle line:84% a 20 minute experience once every two or three weeks. 00:31:42.037 --> 00:31:44.370 align:middle line:84% I'm not sure that was worth thinking about 00:31:44.370 --> 00:31:45.970 align:middle line:90% anything for that. 00:31:45.970 --> 00:31:49.555 align:middle line:84% So we design the game, we play it online at home. 00:31:49.555 --> 00:31:54.106 align:middle line:84% And encourage teachers to let the kids just play it. 00:31:54.106 --> 00:31:56.606 align:middle line:84% And there was another advantage of that, which was 00:31:56.606 --> 00:31:57.190 align:middle line:84% to go back to who introduces it. 00:31:57.190 --> 00:31:59.680 align:middle line:84% If you play that-- even if we have the perfect 20 minute 00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:02.970 align:middle line:84% game for the computer lab, if the teacher's walking around-- 00:32:02.970 --> 00:32:03.840 align:middle line:90% I shouldn't say. 00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:05.560 align:middle line:84% I've seen good uses of that space. 00:32:05.560 --> 00:32:07.610 align:middle line:84% But there's some greater probability you're going to 00:32:07.610 --> 00:32:09.290 align:middle line:84% feel like this is just a lesson. 00:32:09.290 --> 00:32:11.430 align:middle line:84% Whereas if the teacher says, go play this at home, there's 00:32:11.430 --> 00:32:13.876 align:middle line:84% some greater probability that you will sort of forget about 00:32:13.876 --> 00:32:15.656 align:middle line:84% the school and get [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:32:15.656 --> 00:32:17.130 align:middle line:84% And again, it's not that we want to trick 00:32:17.130 --> 00:32:18.225 align:middle line:90% you into doing math. 00:32:18.225 --> 00:32:20.930 align:middle line:84% It's that we want to engage with the math in the most 00:32:20.930 --> 00:32:22.880 align:middle line:90% pleasant spirit possible. 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:27.836 align:middle line:84% And the less we give the wrapper of school to it, the 00:32:27.836 --> 00:32:29.808 align:middle line:84% more playful you're likely to be. 00:32:29.808 --> 00:32:32.766 align:middle line:84% Even if you're not denying that it's math or science or 00:32:32.766 --> 00:32:33.752 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:32:33.752 --> 00:32:37.696 align:middle line:84% So that was [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE]. 00:32:37.696 --> 00:32:41.311 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: So Constantine, you had said the cancer game 00:32:41.311 --> 00:32:42.626 align:middle line:90% is really well evaluated. 00:32:42.626 --> 00:32:45.816 align:middle line:84% So did any of you have stories or experiences from seeing 00:32:45.816 --> 00:32:48.714 align:middle line:84% your games out in the world that way. 00:32:48.714 --> 00:32:51.023 align:middle line:84% You've gotten feedback from teachers who have tried this 00:32:51.023 --> 00:32:52.273 align:middle line:90% in the classrooms. 00:32:52.273 --> 00:32:57.910 align:middle line:90% 00:32:57.910 --> 00:32:59.890 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah. 00:32:59.890 --> 00:33:01.140 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:33:01.140 --> 00:33:05.100 align:middle line:90% 00:33:05.100 --> 00:33:10.340 align:middle line:84% so from the game I just talked about, about renewable 00:33:10.340 --> 00:33:12.720 align:middle line:90% energies that totally failed. 00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:16.780 align:middle line:84% People played it but didn't understand it, hated it, or 00:33:16.780 --> 00:33:17.030 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:33:17.030 --> 00:33:20.290 align:middle line:90% So I think, total failure. 00:33:20.290 --> 00:33:27.550 align:middle line:84% And I think just to start with this conversation is, this is 00:33:27.550 --> 00:33:30.190 align:middle line:90% a problematic thing. 00:33:30.190 --> 00:33:36.350 align:middle line:84% Because there is very little research going on on the 00:33:36.350 --> 00:33:39.380 align:middle line:84% iteration of games, because it's also very hard. 00:33:39.380 --> 00:33:42.510 align:middle line:84% It takes lot of effort and it also could take a lot of money 00:33:42.510 --> 00:33:48.898 align:middle line:84% to evaluate the research, that the success of the game for 00:33:48.898 --> 00:33:51.343 align:middle line:90% learning purposes. 00:33:51.343 --> 00:33:54.562 align:middle line:84% And I just know very few studies that do 00:33:54.562 --> 00:33:56.458 align:middle line:90% that, in the end. 00:33:56.458 --> 00:34:00.490 align:middle line:84% And I think we've just reached that moment where people start 00:34:00.490 --> 00:34:02.210 align:middle line:84% to think that this is an interesting way to do it. 00:34:02.210 --> 00:34:07.020 align:middle line:84% And Remission, as I said, is probably-- 00:34:07.020 --> 00:34:09.000 align:middle line:84% maybe you'll correct me in a second, but I think it's the 00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:12.300 align:middle line:84% only game I would put my hand into the fire for it. 00:34:12.300 --> 00:34:16.397 align:middle line:84% But the question is, what did they learn in the game? 00:34:16.397 --> 00:34:17.891 align:middle line:84% They learned about [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:34:17.891 --> 00:34:21.875 align:middle line:84% They learned that there is something they can do. 00:34:21.875 --> 00:34:25.361 align:middle line:84% They learned a more positive perspective, a more positive 00:34:25.361 --> 00:34:26.855 align:middle line:90% relation to medicine. 00:34:26.855 --> 00:34:30.839 align:middle line:84% They didn't learn anything else. 00:34:30.839 --> 00:34:31.835 align:middle line:90% In the research-- 00:34:31.835 --> 00:34:33.827 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: It doesn't really change their illness. 00:34:33.827 --> 00:34:35.422 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: And they didn't get happier. 00:34:35.422 --> 00:34:39.120 align:middle line:84% It's not that they said, wow, now, I couldn't cope better 00:34:39.120 --> 00:34:40.389 align:middle line:90% with their illness. 00:34:40.389 --> 00:34:44.584 align:middle line:84% They just took the medicine and so the doctors were really 00:34:44.584 --> 00:34:44.960 align:middle line:90% happy with that. 00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.961 align:middle line:90% But-- 00:34:46.961 --> 00:34:48.284 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: That's the stated goal 00:34:48.284 --> 00:34:50.224 align:middle line:90% of Remission, actually. 00:34:50.224 --> 00:34:55.151 align:middle line:84% It's, this is a 3D game where you play a 00:34:55.151 --> 00:34:57.541 align:middle line:90% woman in space or something. 00:34:57.541 --> 00:35:01.050 align:middle line:90% Shot down and [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:35:01.050 --> 00:35:04.200 align:middle line:84% but the stated goal of the game, at least of the people 00:35:04.200 --> 00:35:07.942 align:middle line:84% who were making it, was to try to encourage people who are 00:35:07.942 --> 00:35:12.566 align:middle line:84% suffering from cancer to keep up with their medication. 00:35:12.566 --> 00:35:18.960 align:middle line:84% Don't fail keeping up the schedule of taking your 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.320 align:middle line:90% chemotherapy drugs, basically. 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.617 align:middle line:84% And the game was designed to show what happens, what these 00:35:25.617 --> 00:35:30.487 align:middle line:84% drugs actually try to do in some sort of fictional-- or 00:35:30.487 --> 00:35:33.896 align:middle line:84% fantastical, I'm not going to say fictional -- 00:35:33.896 --> 00:35:36.818 align:middle line:90% so that's Remission. 00:35:36.818 --> 00:35:38.766 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Is this a free play game as well? 00:35:38.766 --> 00:35:39.155 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah. 00:35:39.155 --> 00:35:39.253 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:35:39.253 --> 00:35:41.201 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:35:41.201 --> 00:35:43.675 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: So, on Labyrinth the original grant 00:35:43.675 --> 00:35:47.575 align:middle line:84% include an excess of one year evaluation on the game use. 00:35:47.575 --> 00:35:50.910 align:middle line:84% And then when Congress cut back the funding of the larger 00:35:50.910 --> 00:35:55.362 align:middle line:84% program, of which Labyrinth was just one small piece, that 00:35:55.362 --> 00:35:55.605 align:middle line:90% got cut off. 00:35:55.605 --> 00:35:57.306 align:middle line:84% And so the research didn't happen. 00:35:57.306 --> 00:36:00.222 align:middle line:84% We're now looking for a grant, because Labyrinth has been 00:36:00.222 --> 00:36:04.620 align:middle line:84% used aggressively in Maryland schools [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:36:04.620 --> 00:36:05.560 align:middle line:84% So we are going to look for funding. 00:36:05.560 --> 00:36:07.690 align:middle line:84% But generally, there's less money. 00:36:07.690 --> 00:36:09.280 align:middle line:84% As little money as there is you're developing this 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:12.619 align:middle line:84% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] there's even less for researching them. 00:36:12.619 --> 00:36:18.448 align:middle line:84% And I think some of what I think our work is designed 00:36:18.448 --> 00:36:20.547 align:middle line:84% [UNINTELLIGIBLE], we figure out what we can learn by 00:36:20.547 --> 00:36:20.918 align:middle line:90% making the game. 00:36:20.918 --> 00:36:22.760 align:middle line:84% And we publish what we've learned in the hope that other 00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:25.550 align:middle line:84% people will pick up the ball, people who have more of a 00:36:25.550 --> 00:36:29.935 align:middle line:84% research bent in the traditional sense. 00:36:29.935 --> 00:36:32.266 align:middle line:84% Will start to do the research about it. 00:36:32.266 --> 00:36:32.960 align:middle line:84% I think we're on the brink of that. 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:37.270 align:middle line:84% I think with stuff like the Quest to Learn School. 00:36:37.270 --> 00:36:39.220 align:middle line:84% Increasing numbers of educators are using 00:36:39.220 --> 00:36:40.390 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:36:40.390 --> 00:36:44.568 align:middle line:84% I do have only anecdotal evidence, but the very first 00:36:44.568 --> 00:36:50.513 align:middle line:84% game that I did, which was this massive logic oriented 00:36:50.513 --> 00:36:54.490 align:middle line:84% game, ended up being not particularly well marketed. 00:36:54.490 --> 00:36:57.870 align:middle line:84% It nevertheless sold a million copies. 00:36:57.870 --> 00:37:02.508 align:middle line:84% And the anecdotal evidence I got was that it was one of the 00:37:02.508 --> 00:37:04.240 align:middle line:84% rare cases where parents would bring it in and recommend it 00:37:04.240 --> 00:37:06.430 align:middle line:84% to teachers, and teachers would recommend it to parents. 00:37:06.430 --> 00:37:09.092 align:middle line:84% Or kids would come home from school recommending it. 00:37:09.092 --> 00:37:12.627 align:middle line:84% And there seemed to be this fairly broad acceptance by 00:37:12.627 --> 00:37:16.175 align:middle line:84% both parents and teachers and kids, without kids having the 00:37:16.175 --> 00:37:18.815 align:middle line:84% sense that, oh, my teacher's making me do this. 00:37:18.815 --> 00:37:20.265 align:middle line:84% And I hear that now that everybody's rich and famous in 00:37:20.265 --> 00:37:22.790 align:middle line:84% their 20s, I occasionally hear from them. 00:37:22.790 --> 00:37:25.774 align:middle line:84% And some of them say it's what interested 00:37:25.774 --> 00:37:26.590 align:middle line:90% them in math and stuff. 00:37:26.590 --> 00:37:29.478 align:middle line:84% So that's all anecdotal, and maybe [UNINTELLIGIBLE] has 00:37:29.478 --> 00:37:30.728 align:middle line:90% some [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:37:30.728 --> 00:37:33.220 align:middle line:90% 00:37:33.220 --> 00:37:36.131 align:middle line:84% But I think the million copies is beating towards the-- 00:37:36.131 --> 00:37:37.381 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] 00:37:37.381 --> 00:37:46.280 align:middle line:90% 00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:46.600 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Sure. 00:37:46.600 --> 00:37:48.405 align:middle line:84% I'll just add a little bit to that. 00:37:48.405 --> 00:37:51.830 align:middle line:84% I also have some anecdotal stuff I want to bring in. 00:37:51.830 --> 00:37:54.481 align:middle line:90% 00:37:54.481 --> 00:37:57.420 align:middle line:84% But the most interesting thing that I've discovered was with 00:37:57.420 --> 00:38:01.660 align:middle line:84% Labyrinth and a target audience that I've seen play 00:38:01.660 --> 00:38:05.053 align:middle line:84% it, that it was not specifically designed for. 00:38:05.053 --> 00:38:11.040 align:middle line:84% Which is kids with some sort of attention disorder. 00:38:11.040 --> 00:38:16.284 align:middle line:84% Whether it's ADD, or autism or something. 00:38:16.284 --> 00:38:19.845 align:middle line:84% And seeing these kids engage with the game, even engage 00:38:19.845 --> 00:38:25.148 align:middle line:84% with the game in a social way, and be 00:38:25.148 --> 00:38:27.608 align:middle line:90% hyperfocused on the game. 00:38:27.608 --> 00:38:34.870 align:middle line:84% And be highly competent with the game, and to really calm 00:38:34.870 --> 00:38:40.978 align:middle line:84% down and adopt pro-social behaviors that were not 00:38:40.978 --> 00:38:43.816 align:middle line:90% characteristic of them. 00:38:43.816 --> 00:38:46.912 align:middle line:84% Or that their peers or families hadn't 00:38:46.912 --> 00:38:48.265 align:middle line:90% seen with them before. 00:38:48.265 --> 00:38:51.211 align:middle line:84% I think there's a lot of power there. 00:38:51.211 --> 00:38:54.036 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: The first two teachers I've met who have 00:38:54.036 --> 00:38:57.308 align:middle line:84% used Labyrinth said they were seeing performance with kids 00:38:57.308 --> 00:39:01.204 align:middle line:84% they didn't expect to see before. 00:39:01.204 --> 00:39:04.249 align:middle line:84% Because our sense was that lots of kids have competencies 00:39:04.249 --> 00:39:05.398 align:middle line:84% and skills that they don't show off in 00:39:05.398 --> 00:39:07.020 align:middle line:90% the format of school. 00:39:07.020 --> 00:39:10.780 align:middle line:84% School being its own kind of game which only certain people 00:39:10.780 --> 00:39:11.680 align:middle line:90% are good at. 00:39:11.680 --> 00:39:15.713 align:middle line:84% And so having a kid be able to demonstrate a competency at a 00:39:15.713 --> 00:39:18.096 align:middle line:84% different kind of game, and let the teacher see it. 00:39:18.096 --> 00:39:21.634 align:middle line:84% Because part of the design of Labyrinth is that teachers can 00:39:21.634 --> 00:39:22.980 align:middle line:90% track progress online. 00:39:22.980 --> 00:39:24.483 align:middle line:90% That was one of our goals. 00:39:24.483 --> 00:39:26.948 align:middle line:90% And that was [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:39:26.948 --> 00:39:28.427 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: This is a very good laptop actually. 00:39:28.427 --> 00:39:30.892 align:middle line:84% So is it possible to look it up and show some of Labyrinth? 00:39:30.892 --> 00:39:33.850 align:middle line:84% Because we've been talking about it in this aspect. 00:39:33.850 --> 00:39:34.343 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, sure. 00:39:34.343 --> 00:39:34.836 align:middle line:90% Absolutely. 00:39:34.836 --> 00:39:36.808 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:39:36.808 --> 00:39:40.259 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: It's just a notion of a game. 00:39:40.259 --> 00:39:42.231 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: But other people can [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:39:42.231 --> 00:39:43.481 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:39:43.481 --> 00:39:48.500 align:middle line:90% 00:39:48.500 --> 00:39:51.780 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: While we're setting that up, I'd like to ask a bit 00:39:51.780 --> 00:39:53.218 align:middle line:90% about prototyping. 00:39:53.218 --> 00:39:54.468 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:39:54.468 --> 00:40:11.182 align:middle line:90% 00:40:11.182 --> 00:40:15.500 align:middle line:84% So, in the process of designing-- these are mostly 00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:17.875 align:middle line:84% digital games that we've been talking about all the time. 00:40:17.875 --> 00:40:21.130 align:middle line:84% But I'd like to talk about the early stage, when you're 00:40:21.130 --> 00:40:24.686 align:middle line:84% working with paper or simple digital prototypes. 00:40:24.686 --> 00:40:28.910 align:middle line:90% 00:40:28.910 --> 00:40:32.600 align:middle line:84% Maybe you can talk a little bit about how that might be 00:40:32.600 --> 00:40:37.375 align:middle line:84% similar or different from designing other kinds of 00:40:37.375 --> 00:40:40.504 align:middle line:84% computer games, or even board games? 00:40:40.504 --> 00:40:43.303 align:middle line:84% Do you test it differently because you're designing it 00:40:43.303 --> 00:40:45.938 align:middle line:84% explicitly for a specific audience? 00:40:45.938 --> 00:40:49.643 align:middle line:84% Do you test it with instructors as well as 00:40:49.643 --> 00:40:50.890 align:middle line:90% players, or [UNINTELLIGIBLE]? 00:40:50.890 --> 00:40:52.960 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I think it's always best to try to test 00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:54.660 align:middle line:90% with your target audience. 00:40:54.660 --> 00:40:57.230 align:middle line:84% The things you'd learn from [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:40:57.230 --> 00:41:00.810 align:middle line:90% 00:41:00.810 --> 00:41:03.230 align:middle line:84% there's thing you learn, you can learn from any audience. 00:41:03.230 --> 00:41:06.610 align:middle line:84% Particularly usability, which is important. 00:41:06.610 --> 00:41:11.004 align:middle line:84% Frequently the flaw in a game is not the core mechanic, but 00:41:11.004 --> 00:41:14.665 align:middle line:84% the ease with which the player can understand what they're 00:41:14.665 --> 00:41:14.950 align:middle line:90% supposed to do. 00:41:14.950 --> 00:41:18.070 align:middle line:84% But you can test that with any wide range of people. 00:41:18.070 --> 00:41:20.660 align:middle line:84% Anyone who you think is roughly as computer game 00:41:20.660 --> 00:41:23.090 align:middle line:84% literate as your target audience. 00:41:23.090 --> 00:41:27.500 align:middle line:84% But I think if your goal is to interest middle-school kids 00:41:27.500 --> 00:41:31.324 align:middle line:84% like we do with this game-- let me just turn this on-- 00:41:31.324 --> 00:41:35.640 align:middle line:90% 00:41:35.640 --> 00:41:37.640 align:middle line:84% then you do want to, because there are questions about age 00:41:37.640 --> 00:41:40.230 align:middle line:90% appropriateness. 00:41:40.230 --> 00:41:42.598 align:middle line:90% Or [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] 00:41:42.598 --> 00:41:51.030 align:middle line:90% 00:41:51.030 --> 00:41:51.526 align:middle line:90% All right. 00:41:51.526 --> 00:41:53.900 align:middle line:84% So we're about to get this screen here. 00:41:53.900 --> 00:41:55.640 align:middle line:90% So this is a login screen. 00:41:55.640 --> 00:41:59.610 align:middle line:84% This is not the first screen you would come to if you'd 00:41:59.610 --> 00:42:03.530 align:middle line:84% started the game from scratch, you get some more information. 00:42:03.530 --> 00:42:04.090 align:middle line:90% But I've already logged in. 00:42:04.090 --> 00:42:08.010 align:middle line:90% So what you'll notice-- 00:42:08.010 --> 00:42:11.810 align:middle line:90% let me just log in. 00:42:11.810 --> 00:42:12.780 align:middle line:90% So it's online. 00:42:12.780 --> 00:42:14.080 align:middle line:84% You can play from any computer. 00:42:14.080 --> 00:42:15.472 align:middle line:84% That was important because we were concerned about 00:42:15.472 --> 00:42:18.820 align:middle line:84% underserved populations who either don't have computers at 00:42:18.820 --> 00:42:24.120 align:middle line:84% home or who have less control over their time, don't have a 00:42:24.120 --> 00:42:25.510 align:middle line:84% computer in their room, certainly. 00:42:25.510 --> 00:42:27.590 align:middle line:84% Or might do all their work in an after-school 00:42:27.590 --> 00:42:29.310 align:middle line:90% setting or a library. 00:42:29.310 --> 00:42:33.565 align:middle line:84% So basically, once you have an identity you 00:42:33.565 --> 00:42:35.002 align:middle line:90% can log in from anywhere. 00:42:35.002 --> 00:42:37.397 align:middle line:84% I'm going to briefly enter the game space but 00:42:37.397 --> 00:42:38.647 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:42:38.647 --> 00:42:41.720 align:middle line:90% 00:42:41.720 --> 00:42:43.666 align:middle line:84% So here we're already in the middle of the game. 00:42:43.666 --> 00:42:45.840 align:middle line:84% This is a puzzle adventure game. 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:48.660 align:middle line:84% And the plot is, someone's stolen my pet. 00:42:48.660 --> 00:42:51.110 align:middle line:84% I've tracked it down to this underground factory that's 00:42:51.110 --> 00:42:52.790 align:middle line:90% being run by monsters-- 00:42:52.790 --> 00:42:55.170 align:middle line:90% and there's middle schoolers-- 00:42:55.170 --> 00:42:58.912 align:middle line:84% with the help of a mysterious woman with 00:42:58.912 --> 00:43:01.620 align:middle line:90% bluish skin and wings. 00:43:01.620 --> 00:43:04.275 align:middle line:84% I've been given a monster costume, so in the guise of a 00:43:04.275 --> 00:43:10.070 align:middle line:84% monster myself I can go around and do jobs in the factory. 00:43:10.070 --> 00:43:12.838 align:middle line:84% Find my pet, figure out what the monsters are up to, which 00:43:12.838 --> 00:43:15.720 align:middle line:90% is indeed no good. 00:43:15.720 --> 00:43:18.800 align:middle line:84% And I'm in the middle of this game, so I've 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:19.090 align:middle line:90% already advanced some. 00:43:19.090 --> 00:43:22.275 align:middle line:84% There is a sequence of rooms, which, part of the game is 00:43:22.275 --> 00:43:24.750 align:middle line:84% just finding the rooms where the puzzles are. 00:43:24.750 --> 00:43:29.700 align:middle line:84% For example, we've got it here. 00:43:29.700 --> 00:43:33.165 align:middle line:84% This is one of the wings of the factory. 00:43:33.165 --> 00:43:35.640 align:middle line:90% There's a hundred doors here. 00:43:35.640 --> 00:43:38.115 align:middle line:84% And I can click on every door if I have to. 00:43:38.115 --> 00:43:40.598 align:middle line:84% But I have a map, which is itself a mathematical tool, to 00:43:40.598 --> 00:43:44.930 align:middle line:90% find where I want to go. 00:43:44.930 --> 00:43:48.750 align:middle line:84% And as I go through, each room represents a different puzzle. 00:43:48.750 --> 00:43:50.480 align:middle line:84% Anyway, having said that, we're going 00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:51.260 align:middle line:90% to actually go back-- 00:43:51.260 --> 00:43:52.610 align:middle line:90% And oh. 00:43:52.610 --> 00:44:00.135 align:middle line:84% The other big feature in the game is that if you play on 00:44:00.135 --> 00:44:02.350 align:middle line:84% teams, then you can communicate with your 00:44:02.350 --> 00:44:04.590 align:middle line:84% teammates through this communicator. 00:44:04.590 --> 00:44:07.730 align:middle line:90% 00:44:07.730 --> 00:44:09.933 align:middle line:84% And the reason there is to actually get kids reading and 00:44:09.933 --> 00:44:12.380 align:middle line:84% writing about what they're doing with math. 00:44:12.380 --> 00:44:14.300 align:middle line:84% Because if you want to help your teammmates, you can't 00:44:14.300 --> 00:44:16.690 align:middle line:84% feed each other the answers [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:44:16.690 --> 00:44:17.940 align:middle line:90% puzzle. 00:44:17.940 --> 00:44:20.310 align:middle line:90% 00:44:20.310 --> 00:44:21.596 align:middle line:84% Every puzzle, every time you play, 00:44:21.596 --> 00:44:22.730 align:middle line:90% it's a different solution. 00:44:22.730 --> 00:44:25.474 align:middle line:84% So you can't tell each other the answer, all you can do is 00:44:25.474 --> 00:44:28.180 align:middle line:90% talk about your strategies. 00:44:28.180 --> 00:44:30.116 align:middle line:84% We're going to leave the game and go to puzzle mode 00:44:30.116 --> 00:44:31.366 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:44:31.366 --> 00:44:40.540 align:middle line:90% 00:44:40.540 --> 00:44:42.140 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: This is a shortcut? 00:44:42.140 --> 00:44:44.068 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, shortcut to puzzles, right. 00:44:44.068 --> 00:44:45.556 align:middle line:84% You don't have to play it in the context of the game. 00:44:45.556 --> 00:44:46.806 align:middle line:84% You can play any puzzle that you want. 00:44:46.806 --> 00:44:50.870 align:middle line:90% 00:44:50.870 --> 00:44:53.248 align:middle line:84% I'm going to try one that I've never played 00:44:53.248 --> 00:44:54.220 align:middle line:90% with a group before. 00:44:54.220 --> 00:44:57.862 align:middle line:84% So usually I pick the same game, play it, and get used to 00:44:57.862 --> 00:44:58.594 align:middle line:90% playing it with people. 00:44:58.594 --> 00:45:01.024 align:middle line:90% But let's just try this one. 00:45:01.024 --> 00:45:02.968 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:45:02.968 --> 00:45:07.360 align:middle line:90% I think I've tried level one. 00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:09.858 align:middle line:84% So I'm trying to remember what you know here. 00:45:09.858 --> 00:45:13.826 align:middle line:84% You're in the back in the shipping area. 00:45:13.826 --> 00:45:17.720 align:middle line:84% And you've got to come up with a manifest to ship the number 00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:19.234 align:middle line:90% of objects that you've got. 00:45:19.234 --> 00:45:21.720 align:middle line:90% That's all you know. 00:45:21.720 --> 00:45:22.980 align:middle line:84% You've basically got to give them the right 00:45:22.980 --> 00:45:25.325 align:middle line:90% instructions to ship it. 00:45:25.325 --> 00:45:31.100 align:middle line:84% And so now, just tell me what to do here. 00:45:31.100 --> 00:45:33.950 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Click something. 00:45:33.950 --> 00:45:34.750 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Of course. 00:45:34.750 --> 00:45:37.620 align:middle line:90% And that's [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:45:37.620 --> 00:45:38.300 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:45:38.300 --> 00:45:39.550 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:45:39.550 --> 00:45:42.020 align:middle line:90% 00:45:42.020 --> 00:45:43.890 align:middle line:90% Up into the slots up there. 00:45:43.890 --> 00:45:46.720 align:middle line:90% There's ones and zeroes. 00:45:46.720 --> 00:45:49.578 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Can we put that crazy fish head second to the 00:45:49.578 --> 00:45:52.566 align:middle line:84% right on every one in the equals spot? 00:45:52.566 --> 00:45:53.064 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Yes. 00:45:53.064 --> 00:45:54.558 align:middle line:90% You can. 00:45:54.558 --> 00:45:56.550 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:45:56.550 --> 00:45:59.040 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Want to try it in the equals spot. 00:45:59.040 --> 00:46:03.540 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And go to the equals on this one. 00:46:03.540 --> 00:46:04.110 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:46:04.110 --> 00:46:05.735 align:middle line:84% Just tell us what your thinking was. 00:46:05.735 --> 00:46:07.116 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, it looks like we're trying 00:46:07.116 --> 00:46:08.970 align:middle line:90% to build math equations. 00:46:08.970 --> 00:46:13.896 align:middle line:84% And usually they end with equals something. 00:46:13.896 --> 00:46:14.380 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Right. 00:46:14.380 --> 00:46:15.230 align:middle line:90% And you saw that. 00:46:15.230 --> 00:46:17.100 align:middle line:84% Now, just so you know, the equation we're going to 00:46:17.100 --> 00:46:21.190 align:middle line:84% build-- you're right, and just as a shortcut-- is not about 00:46:21.190 --> 00:46:21.348 align:middle line:90% arithmetic. 00:46:21.348 --> 00:46:22.056 align:middle line:90% The equations are simple. 00:46:22.056 --> 00:46:23.708 align:middle line:84% I'm not interested in drilling kids on arithmetic. 00:46:23.708 --> 00:46:28.730 align:middle line:84% This is really about number systems, and number systems 00:46:28.730 --> 00:46:29.910 align:middle line:90% are just simple systems. 00:46:29.910 --> 00:46:32.285 align:middle line:84% But there's also some algebra that's going to go on this, we 00:46:32.285 --> 00:46:34.030 align:middle line:90% start to do this too. 00:46:34.030 --> 00:46:35.968 align:middle line:84% And then in higher levels of the puzzle, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:46:35.968 --> 00:46:39.160 align:middle line:84% you start doing stuff in base two and base six. 00:46:39.160 --> 00:46:43.100 align:middle line:84% We sort of dovetailed with the notion that our 00:46:43.100 --> 00:46:45.110 align:middle line:84% representations of numbers are just symbolic. 00:46:45.110 --> 00:46:49.595 align:middle line:84% So zero, or one, or one zero, doesn't have 00:46:49.595 --> 00:46:51.040 align:middle line:90% to always mean 10. 00:46:51.040 --> 00:46:52.810 align:middle line:90% It's just a symbol. 00:46:52.810 --> 00:46:53.303 align:middle line:90% Anyway. 00:46:53.303 --> 00:46:53.796 align:middle line:90% So now what should we do? 00:46:53.796 --> 00:46:56.261 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Pac-Man should be minus. 00:46:56.261 --> 00:47:01.191 align:middle line:84% Because the only ones with six digits have Pac-Man as the 00:47:01.191 --> 00:47:01.684 align:middle line:90% third digit. 00:47:01.684 --> 00:47:03.163 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: Sounds good. 00:47:03.163 --> 00:47:04.220 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I'm not sure which one is Pac-Man. 00:47:04.220 --> 00:47:05.670 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Bottom right. 00:47:05.670 --> 00:47:06.150 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: This guy? 00:47:06.150 --> 00:47:07.590 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: That guy's Pac-Man. 00:47:07.590 --> 00:47:10.950 align:middle line:90% Pac-Man with an underline. 00:47:10.950 --> 00:47:13.350 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I'm not sure if we can actually 00:47:13.350 --> 00:47:16.230 align:middle line:90% put that one there. 00:47:16.230 --> 00:47:17.480 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:19.310 align:middle line:90% 00:47:19.310 --> 00:47:22.730 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: If you look at the top left, then what is the 00:47:22.730 --> 00:47:24.650 align:middle line:84% number two digit number that, minus the last digit, gives a 00:47:24.650 --> 00:47:26.119 align:middle line:90% single-digit number. 00:47:26.119 --> 00:47:27.995 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:47:27.995 --> 00:47:30.340 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:47:30.340 --> 00:47:32.340 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, that's a good point, yeah. 00:47:32.340 --> 00:47:34.220 align:middle line:84% It has to be divided by [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:47:34.220 --> 00:47:35.420 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: But now what you're really doing is 00:47:35.420 --> 00:47:38.480 align:middle line:84% thinking about the structure of math. 00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:40.160 align:middle line:90% Which is exactly what-- 00:47:40.160 --> 00:47:44.710 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So when you say that's divided-- 00:47:44.710 --> 00:47:48.610 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So, I'm going to guess the banana is four? 00:47:48.610 --> 00:47:50.530 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:47:50.530 --> 00:47:52.420 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: You want to say why? 00:47:52.420 --> 00:47:55.940 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because using that same logic, that first 00:47:55.940 --> 00:48:01.152 align:middle line:84% version, that something, n x divided by x equals some 00:48:01.152 --> 00:48:02.598 align:middle line:90% single digit number. 00:48:02.598 --> 00:48:05.490 align:middle line:90% And I'm guessing x is 4. 00:48:05.490 --> 00:48:05.980 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:48:05.980 --> 00:48:10.830 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: By the way, you guys have avoided, and not 00:48:10.830 --> 00:48:13.213 align:middle line:84% noticed a piece of information which would make your work 00:48:13.213 --> 00:48:16.010 align:middle line:90% even more-- 00:48:16.010 --> 00:48:18.010 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Oh, the thing at the top. 00:48:18.010 --> 00:48:20.820 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: What's the thing at the top? 00:48:20.820 --> 00:48:23.050 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: The thing at the bottom. 00:48:23.050 --> 00:48:24.640 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It could be two, actually, as well. 00:48:24.640 --> 00:48:25.830 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: What are all the green things? 00:48:25.830 --> 00:48:28.506 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Those are the things you're shipping. 00:48:28.506 --> 00:48:29.850 align:middle line:84% Those are jars of stuff, of pepper. 00:48:29.850 --> 00:48:30.860 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Oh, those make sense. 00:48:30.860 --> 00:48:33.570 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Banana something banana. 00:48:33.570 --> 00:48:34.892 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Banana something-- 00:48:34.892 --> 00:48:38.510 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Equals something banana. 00:48:38.510 --> 00:48:38.870 align:middle line:90% So-- 00:48:38.870 --> 00:48:40.120 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:48:40.120 --> 00:48:44.300 align:middle line:90% 00:48:44.300 --> 00:48:45.670 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Banana could actually be two. 00:48:45.670 --> 00:48:47.500 align:middle line:84% Because 12 divided by two is equal to six. six. 00:48:47.500 --> 00:48:48.750 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:48:48.750 --> 00:48:57.330 align:middle line:90% 00:48:57.330 --> 00:49:00.580 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, and in that respect, that means a little-- 00:49:00.580 --> 00:49:02.610 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, the four squares are signs. 00:49:02.610 --> 00:49:03.580 align:middle line:90% You try that? 00:49:03.580 --> 00:49:04.420 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:49:04.420 --> 00:49:06.980 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It has to be zero on-- 00:49:06.980 --> 00:49:08.070 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Every time you play the game 00:49:08.070 --> 00:49:08.530 align:middle line:90% the symbols are different. 00:49:08.530 --> 00:49:10.270 align:middle line:84% They're the same symbols but they're a different-- 00:49:10.270 --> 00:49:11.640 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Triple backlash should be-- oh. 00:49:11.640 --> 00:49:12.890 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:49:12.890 --> 00:49:15.200 align:middle line:90% 00:49:15.200 --> 00:49:16.180 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: By the way, you're still missing a piece 00:49:16.180 --> 00:49:16.545 align:middle line:90% of information. 00:49:16.545 --> 00:49:17.295 align:middle line:90% But that's OK. 00:49:17.295 --> 00:49:19.050 align:middle line:84% That's what games are all about. 00:49:19.050 --> 00:49:19.440 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:20.850 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So what's this thing in the top left? 00:49:20.850 --> 00:49:24.902 align:middle line:84% Can we put things in there and press enter, and will it 00:49:24.902 --> 00:49:26.878 align:middle line:90% evaluate them for us? 00:49:26.878 --> 00:49:30.555 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, but right now-- you're not done yet . 00:49:30.555 --> 00:49:31.805 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:49:31.805 --> 00:49:33.670 align:middle line:90% 00:49:33.670 --> 00:49:36.730 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, triple dash is definitely one. 00:49:36.730 --> 00:49:39.530 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Triple dash is-- 00:49:39.530 --> 00:49:41.510 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Oh, triple dash is one, because one 00:49:41.510 --> 00:49:44.660 align:middle line:90% times banana is banana. 00:49:44.660 --> 00:49:46.490 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Unless banana's zero. 00:49:46.490 --> 00:49:47.740 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:49:47.740 --> 00:49:54.210 align:middle line:90% 00:49:54.210 --> 00:49:56.050 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Banana's six, I think. 00:49:56.050 --> 00:49:56.300 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: It could be five. 00:49:56.300 --> 00:49:57.400 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I've never done this game before-- 00:49:57.400 --> 00:49:58.240 align:middle line:90% no. 00:49:58.240 --> 00:50:00.315 align:middle line:84% The fact that you're naming all these symbols, because 00:50:00.315 --> 00:50:02.080 align:middle line:90% they were just symbols. 00:50:02.080 --> 00:50:03.330 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:50:03.330 --> 00:50:09.900 align:middle line:90% 00:50:09.900 --> 00:50:10.430 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I think banana's 00:50:10.430 --> 00:50:11.670 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE], because banana-- 00:50:11.670 --> 00:50:13.090 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:50:13.090 --> 00:50:15.260 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] banana squared is equal to 00:50:15.260 --> 00:50:16.735 align:middle line:90% something times banana. 00:50:16.735 --> 00:50:18.320 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Not something times-- 00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:19.750 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So, yeah, it could be 25 actually. 00:50:19.750 --> 00:50:21.440 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:23.260 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Remember, I didn't know the solution to 00:50:23.260 --> 00:50:25.951 align:middle line:84% this when it came in, but I actually have enough data to 00:50:25.951 --> 00:50:27.600 align:middle line:90% know that you're wrong. 00:50:27.600 --> 00:50:28.810 align:middle line:90% It's on the screen. 00:50:28.810 --> 00:50:30.030 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Banana definitely is-- 00:50:30.030 --> 00:50:31.280 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:33.490 align:middle line:90% 00:50:33.490 --> 00:50:38.980 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Five because banana squared is anchor banana. 00:50:38.980 --> 00:50:45.450 align:middle line:84% But flower banana divided by banana is also an integer. 00:50:45.450 --> 00:50:49.930 align:middle line:84% So if flower banana and anchor banana are local banana, then 00:50:49.930 --> 00:50:52.540 align:middle line:84% banana should be five and not six. 00:50:52.540 --> 00:50:56.530 align:middle line:84% because flower minus anchor times banana. 00:50:56.530 --> 00:50:58.910 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I love your mental calculation. 00:50:58.910 --> 00:51:01.110 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:51:01.110 --> 00:51:02.805 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: So you're saying it's what? 00:51:02.805 --> 00:51:04.460 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Five. 00:51:04.460 --> 00:51:05.930 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Well, that could work, but you could have 00:51:05.930 --> 00:51:07.550 align:middle line:90% done it in a simpler way. 00:51:07.550 --> 00:51:10.270 align:middle line:84% Or you could have surmised it, not known it, but-- 00:51:10.270 --> 00:51:12.230 align:middle line:84% remember, this is only the first time you played, 00:51:12.230 --> 00:51:14.140 align:middle line:84% subsequent times you'd have other information. 00:51:14.140 --> 00:51:15.390 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:51:15.390 --> 00:51:25.320 align:middle line:90% 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:27.379 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: You're a member of the group, so don't give 00:51:27.379 --> 00:51:28.730 align:middle line:90% away [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:51:28.730 --> 00:51:31.100 align:middle line:90% but in fact you're making-- 00:51:31.100 --> 00:51:32.350 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:51:32.350 --> 00:51:35.370 align:middle line:90% 00:51:35.370 --> 00:51:36.678 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Anchor is 20. 00:51:36.678 --> 00:51:37.902 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Anchor is two. 00:51:37.902 --> 00:51:38.680 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Sorry, two. 00:51:38.680 --> 00:51:41.100 align:middle line:90% Not 20. 00:51:41.100 --> 00:51:42.970 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Anchor's two. 00:51:42.970 --> 00:51:46.920 align:middle line:90% Claw is zero. 00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:47.660 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Where's claw? 00:51:47.660 --> 00:51:50.940 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Claw's the one on the top left. 00:51:50.940 --> 00:51:52.140 align:middle line:90% Of the squares that are left. 00:51:52.140 --> 00:51:52.840 align:middle line:90% Left. 00:51:52.840 --> 00:51:53.700 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, you mean brass circles. 00:51:53.700 --> 00:51:54.950 align:middle line:90% That makes sense. 00:51:54.950 --> 00:51:58.150 align:middle line:90% 00:51:58.150 --> 00:51:58.995 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, that one. 00:51:58.995 --> 00:51:59.670 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: That's zero. 00:51:59.670 --> 00:52:01.870 align:middle line:90% Has to be zero. 00:52:01.870 --> 00:52:02.990 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Wait, why is it zero? 00:52:02.990 --> 00:52:04.480 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because if you look at the 00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:05.320 align:middle line:90% equation at the bottom-- 00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:06.630 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, I'm looking at the wrong spot. 00:52:06.630 --> 00:52:07.880 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:24.710 align:middle line:90% 00:52:24.710 --> 00:52:26.250 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah, sigma's nine. 00:52:26.250 --> 00:52:27.500 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:52:27.500 --> 00:52:33.610 align:middle line:90% 00:52:33.610 --> 00:52:36.050 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: OK, so [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:52:36.050 --> 00:52:40.070 align:middle line:90% scythe is plus. 00:52:40.070 --> 00:52:42.340 align:middle line:90% Scythe is plus. 00:52:42.340 --> 00:52:44.550 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: No, it has to be minus. 00:52:44.550 --> 00:52:45.800 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:52:45.800 --> 00:53:27.069 align:middle line:90% 00:53:27.069 --> 00:53:29.110 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Anyone who is having trouble, and this 00:53:29.110 --> 00:53:32.310 align:middle line:90% happens in a group. 00:53:32.310 --> 00:53:33.210 align:middle line:84% So, anyone having trouble following it as people were 00:53:33.210 --> 00:53:35.270 align:middle line:84% making stuff up or finding stuff. 00:53:35.270 --> 00:53:36.205 align:middle line:90% Because if you did it's OK. 00:53:36.205 --> 00:53:40.070 align:middle line:84% In fact, sometimes you've got to play the game yourself for 00:53:40.070 --> 00:53:40.970 align:middle line:90% it to make sense. 00:53:40.970 --> 00:53:41.970 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:53:41.970 --> 00:53:43.210 align:middle line:90% I could have told you-- 00:53:43.210 --> 00:53:46.937 align:middle line:84% I actually think I could have told you a lot about the game 00:53:46.937 --> 00:53:47.080 align:middle line:90% going into it. 00:53:47.080 --> 00:53:48.590 align:middle line:84% And there would still be a high probability that when you 00:53:48.590 --> 00:53:51.030 align:middle line:84% started playing it you would have not absorbed 00:53:51.030 --> 00:53:52.530 align:middle line:90% anything I'd said. 00:53:52.530 --> 00:53:53.440 align:middle line:90% That's my experience. 00:53:53.440 --> 00:53:55.893 align:middle line:84% I could almost give it all away but you still don't get 00:53:55.893 --> 00:53:56.310 align:middle line:90% it until they play it. 00:53:56.310 --> 00:53:58.260 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: So they didn't know-- 00:53:58.260 --> 00:53:59.410 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:53:59.410 --> 00:54:01.194 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Beta delta upside down is eight. 00:54:01.194 --> 00:54:02.444 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:54:02.444 --> 00:54:08.906 align:middle line:90% 00:54:08.906 --> 00:54:12.690 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Can we enter that now? 00:54:12.690 --> 00:54:14.500 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Oh, so now you have to type in one times 00:54:14.500 --> 00:54:15.010 align:middle line:90% whatever-- equals-- 00:54:15.010 --> 00:54:16.570 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: You've got to type in what this is. 00:54:16.570 --> 00:54:18.430 align:middle line:84% So and this is actually getting at another 00:54:18.430 --> 00:54:19.680 align:middle line:90% representation. 00:54:19.680 --> 00:54:23.590 align:middle line:90% 00:54:23.590 --> 00:54:24.820 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Eight plus nine. 00:54:24.820 --> 00:54:27.468 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Eight plus nine is 17. 00:54:27.468 --> 00:54:28.884 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: How, here you don't have to actually 00:54:28.884 --> 00:54:30.300 align:middle line:90% remember the [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:34.920 align:middle line:90% 00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:36.170 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Just divide it by six. 00:54:36.170 --> 00:54:50.588 align:middle line:90% 00:54:50.588 --> 00:54:51.838 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:54:51.838 --> 00:54:55.100 align:middle line:90% 00:54:55.100 --> 00:54:56.550 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: It's puzzle mode. 00:54:56.550 --> 00:54:58.686 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And by the way, it could take 00:54:58.686 --> 00:55:00.001 align:middle line:90% it in either order. 00:55:00.001 --> 00:55:04.438 align:middle line:90% 00:55:04.438 --> 00:55:05.917 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I agree. 00:55:05.917 --> 00:55:07.167 align:middle line:90% Equals [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:55:07.167 --> 00:55:10.354 align:middle line:90% 00:55:10.354 --> 00:55:12.819 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I think this level's only addition 00:55:12.819 --> 00:55:14.069 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:55:14.069 --> 00:55:17.290 align:middle line:90% 00:55:17.290 --> 00:55:18.540 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:55:18.540 --> 00:55:21.750 align:middle line:90% 00:55:21.750 --> 00:55:25.470 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Or we could do 10 minus two. 00:55:25.470 --> 00:55:26.090 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Anyway. 00:55:26.090 --> 00:55:27.730 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:55:27.730 --> 00:55:29.630 align:middle line:90% you were doing algebra. 00:55:29.630 --> 00:55:31.160 align:middle line:84% When you were solving for those numbers, 00:55:31.160 --> 00:55:32.456 align:middle line:90% you were doing algebra. 00:55:32.456 --> 00:55:35.916 align:middle line:84% You were really thinking about x and the structure of the 00:55:35.916 --> 00:55:39.800 align:middle line:84% math and the numerical quality of it. 00:55:39.800 --> 00:55:43.109 align:middle line:84% This is simpler, but it's still getting at the fact that 00:55:43.109 --> 00:55:45.001 align:middle line:84% there are multiple ways of representing numbers 00:55:45.001 --> 00:55:45.474 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:55:45.474 --> 00:55:46.970 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Is there any mechanic to 00:55:46.970 --> 00:55:47.770 align:middle line:90% prevent brute force? 00:55:47.770 --> 00:55:50.850 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Yes, those lights go out. 00:55:50.850 --> 00:55:53.500 align:middle line:84% But, you do earn points along the way in the game if you 00:55:53.500 --> 00:55:54.970 align:middle line:90% make some progress. 00:55:54.970 --> 00:55:58.715 align:middle line:84% And so, none of these puzzles are brick walls. 00:55:58.715 --> 00:55:59.940 align:middle line:84% Because you can always play multiple puzzles at once. 00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:03.750 align:middle line:84% You can leave this puzzle, go to another puzzle. 00:56:03.750 --> 00:56:06.140 align:middle line:84% And, if you make any progress at all, you're accumulating 00:56:06.140 --> 00:56:07.014 align:middle line:84% points for the end of the game. 00:56:07.014 --> 00:56:08.762 align:middle line:84% You could actually get to the end of the game story without 00:56:08.762 --> 00:56:09.900 align:middle line:90% having solved any puzzles. 00:56:09.900 --> 00:56:11.490 align:middle line:90% Takes a long time. 00:56:11.490 --> 00:56:13.280 align:middle line:84% The rewards are there for doing well. 00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:16.255 align:middle line:84% And there are rewards for doing well, but there isn't 00:56:16.255 --> 00:56:18.195 align:middle line:90% punishment for not doing well. 00:56:18.195 --> 00:56:21.110 align:middle line:90% At least in sort of a-- 00:56:21.110 --> 00:56:24.347 align:middle line:84% we don't say you can't, we don't make you 00:56:24.347 --> 00:56:25.305 align:middle line:90% stop in your tracks. 00:56:25.305 --> 00:56:26.742 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] you can do it again. 00:56:26.742 --> 00:56:27.221 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Yes, that's right. 00:56:27.221 --> 00:56:28.025 align:middle line:84% You can do it again instantaneously. 00:56:28.025 --> 00:56:32.760 align:middle line:84% And there is no cost in the game to having failed 00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:34.770 align:middle line:90% repeatedly. 00:56:34.770 --> 00:56:37.845 align:middle line:84% If you eventually solve it, you end up with the same score 00:56:37.845 --> 00:56:42.045 align:middle line:84% whether you solved it on the 20th time or the first time. 00:56:42.045 --> 00:56:43.590 align:middle line:84% That's really what problem solving is about. 00:56:43.590 --> 00:56:45.800 align:middle line:84% It's not about being the fastest. 00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:49.600 align:middle line:84% It's just about learning how to solve things. 00:56:49.600 --> 00:56:52.435 align:middle line:84% Speed is overrated [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:56:52.435 --> 00:56:54.742 align:middle line:84% And in math it's very overrated. 00:56:54.742 --> 00:56:56.598 align:middle line:90% Kids [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:56:56.598 --> 00:56:59.640 align:middle line:90% calculations in their head. 00:56:59.640 --> 00:57:00.370 align:middle line:90% It's just more of this. 00:57:00.370 --> 00:57:02.050 align:middle line:90% And the entire level's-- 00:57:02.050 --> 00:57:04.250 align:middle line:84% we came up with representations of 00:57:04.250 --> 00:57:08.340 align:middle line:84% subtraction, which is that you have a large number, you have 00:57:08.340 --> 00:57:10.958 align:middle line:84% 10 jars and five of them are empty. 00:57:10.958 --> 00:57:14.227 align:middle line:90% So it's 10 minus five. 00:57:14.227 --> 00:57:14.700 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:57:14.700 --> 00:57:16.890 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: How is division? 00:57:16.890 --> 00:57:19.542 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Are they 10 rows of jars? 00:57:19.542 --> 00:57:20.940 align:middle line:90% And the rows are empty? 00:57:20.940 --> 00:57:22.995 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, I think it's the same-- 00:57:22.995 --> 00:57:24.975 align:middle line:90% I think that's it. 00:57:24.975 --> 00:57:27.950 align:middle line:90% I think that's the same. 00:57:27.950 --> 00:57:32.914 align:middle line:84% It's in a grid pattern with some [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 00:57:32.914 --> 00:57:36.395 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And I guess there's [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:57:36.395 --> 00:57:41.130 align:middle line:84% but do you have any algebra as such in this format? 00:57:41.130 --> 00:57:41.780 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: No. 00:57:41.780 --> 00:57:44.040 align:middle line:84% But what we encourage is that-- 00:57:44.040 --> 00:57:45.700 align:middle line:84% so what comes with this is material for teachers to 00:57:45.700 --> 00:57:47.394 align:middle line:90% relate this to the curriculum. 00:57:47.394 --> 00:57:50.787 align:middle line:84% And what we really want to happen is that kids have 00:57:50.787 --> 00:57:52.388 align:middle line:84% played the game before they get the subject. 00:57:52.388 --> 00:57:55.184 align:middle line:84% And when the teacher introduces symbol systems in 00:57:55.184 --> 00:57:58.770 align:middle line:84% base six or whatever relates to this, instead of saying, 00:57:58.770 --> 00:58:01.100 align:middle line:84% all right, we're starting a new unit, you again know 00:58:01.100 --> 00:58:04.090 align:middle line:84% nothing, you're starting again at square one and have to 00:58:04.090 --> 00:58:05.990 align:middle line:84% start all over again with something new. 00:58:05.990 --> 00:58:08.690 align:middle line:84% Instead, the teacher comes in and says, I want to introduce 00:58:08.690 --> 00:58:11.580 align:middle line:84% a new concept, but it's one that you've really already 00:58:11.580 --> 00:58:13.550 align:middle line:90% begun to master. 00:58:13.550 --> 00:58:16.740 align:middle line:90% And it's called bases. 00:58:16.740 --> 00:58:18.290 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:58:18.290 --> 00:58:19.443 align:middle line:90% so how did you solve this? 00:58:19.443 --> 00:58:22.680 align:middle line:84% What was going on in this game? 00:58:22.680 --> 00:58:25.470 align:middle line:84% And they have a conversation about what they already know, 00:58:25.470 --> 00:58:29.082 align:middle line:90% as a way of leveraging into-- 00:58:29.082 --> 00:58:33.276 align:middle line:84% I mean, things that I arguably don't know. 00:58:33.276 --> 00:58:36.080 align:middle line:84% Again, I would argue that [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:58:36.080 --> 00:58:37.240 align:middle line:90% you have things in cartons. 00:58:37.240 --> 00:58:42.420 align:middle line:84% So a carton of six jars plus some left over would be-- 00:58:42.420 --> 00:58:45.170 align:middle line:84% a carton of six jars plus three left over would be one, 00:58:45.170 --> 00:58:47.000 align:middle line:90% three, basically. 00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:50.340 align:middle line:90% So anyway. 00:58:50.340 --> 00:58:53.190 align:middle line:84% The point is that the kids begin to build this robust 00:58:53.190 --> 00:58:54.500 align:middle line:90% conceptual understanding. 00:58:54.500 --> 00:58:57.327 align:middle line:84% And hopefully there's a playfulness so that when the 00:58:57.327 --> 00:59:00.990 align:middle line:84% teacher talks about it, that some of them may actually feel 00:59:00.990 --> 00:59:01.320 align:middle line:90% good about it. 00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:05.265 align:middle line:84% Instead of, here's one more reading --you'll never be a 00:59:05.265 --> 00:59:06.660 align:middle line:90% mathematician. 00:59:06.660 --> 00:59:09.170 align:middle line:84% I think math education is largely designed to gate 00:59:09.170 --> 00:59:12.390 align:middle line:84% everybody so that at the end of high school, 00:59:12.390 --> 00:59:13.984 align:middle line:84% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] population is good at math. 00:59:13.984 --> 00:59:17.721 align:middle line:84% Which means that we're taking 12 years teaching 93% of the 00:59:17.721 --> 00:59:19.017 align:middle line:84% population that's no good at math and they should stop 00:59:19.017 --> 00:59:19.266 align:middle line:90% doing that. 00:59:19.266 --> 00:59:22.382 align:middle line:84% I don't know why we'd waste 12 years if you could just tell 00:59:22.382 --> 00:59:23.968 align:middle line:90% them to go to kindergarten. 00:59:23.968 --> 00:59:26.060 align:middle line:84% But that's what what we end up doing. 00:59:26.060 --> 00:59:27.310 align:middle line:84% Anyway, I think that's true of every subject. 00:59:27.310 --> 00:59:30.680 align:middle line:90% 00:59:30.680 --> 00:59:31.830 align:middle line:90% I'd like to turn it around. 00:59:31.830 --> 00:59:33.934 align:middle line:84% Everyone says there's things about math I can do. 00:59:33.934 --> 00:59:36.339 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 00:59:36.339 --> 00:59:42.780 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Can you tell us a little bit more about how that 00:59:42.780 --> 00:59:43.910 align:middle line:90% process went? 00:59:43.910 --> 00:59:44.880 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Sure. 00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:47.660 align:middle line:84% And I also wanted to provide a little extra nuance to one of 00:59:47.660 --> 00:59:51.540 align:middle line:84% the questions about what if you just brute-force your way 00:59:51.540 --> 00:59:51.780 align:middle line:90% through it. 00:59:51.780 --> 00:59:56.878 align:middle line:84% In the higher levels, it won't tell you when you put a symbol 00:59:56.878 --> 00:59:58.324 align:middle line:84% in a slot, whether it's correct or not. 00:59:58.324 --> 00:59:59.770 align:middle line:90% So-- 00:59:59.770 --> 01:00:02.180 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Which actually, you could learn something 01:00:02.180 --> 01:00:02.662 align:middle line:90% interesting. 01:00:02.662 --> 01:00:05.554 align:middle line:84% Because you could start doing something and [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:00:05.554 --> 01:00:07.480 align:middle line:84% something that doesn't add up, that's actually new. 01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:10.340 align:middle line:90% You're learning something. 01:00:10.340 --> 01:00:14.720 align:middle line:84% So, there's 10 puzzles or-- how many? 01:00:14.720 --> 01:00:15.045 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Nine. 01:00:15.045 --> 01:00:22.980 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Nine puzzles, and we came up with nine plus x, and 01:00:22.980 --> 01:00:29.390 align:middle line:84% some of that was slated for school admission and 01:00:29.390 --> 01:00:31.350 align:middle line:90% we never got there. 01:00:31.350 --> 01:00:36.413 align:middle line:84% And some of that x was puzzles or activities that we decided 01:00:36.413 --> 01:00:38.210 align:middle line:84% were not as compelling as the others. 01:00:38.210 --> 01:00:41.528 align:middle line:84% In our process for that, we did a hybrid approach with 01:00:41.528 --> 01:00:43.750 align:middle line:84% paper and computer prototyping. 01:00:43.750 --> 01:00:48.076 align:middle line:84% In general the rule is, if there can be paper prototypes, 01:00:48.076 --> 01:00:48.801 align:middle line:90% paper prototype it. 01:00:48.801 --> 01:00:49.767 align:middle line:90% Because it's so much faster. 01:00:49.767 --> 01:00:53.148 align:middle line:84% But there are certain kinds of activities that really can't. 01:00:53.148 --> 01:00:56.529 align:middle line:84% So for instance, this one is perfect for paper prototyping. 01:00:56.529 --> 01:00:58.501 align:middle line:84% You just take out a piece of paper and 01:00:58.501 --> 01:00:59.745 align:middle line:90% a pen and you create-- 01:00:59.745 --> 01:01:02.756 align:middle line:84% I mean, you have to create some of these equations so 01:01:02.756 --> 01:01:05.310 align:middle line:84% that you then have a system of equations to solve. 01:01:05.310 --> 01:01:08.500 align:middle line:84% But once you've created some of those is, as would need to 01:01:08.500 --> 01:01:12.710 align:middle line:84% be done whether it's a paper or a computer prototype, then 01:01:12.710 --> 01:01:15.137 align:middle line:84% it's trivial to put it in front of someone with paper. 01:01:15.137 --> 01:01:19.220 align:middle line:84% So this is an example of something where we would, for 01:01:19.220 --> 01:01:23.960 align:middle line:84% the first round, test internally with just symbols 01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:25.030 align:middle line:90% and numbers. 01:01:25.030 --> 01:01:28.175 align:middle line:84% And then probably we would do-- 01:01:28.175 --> 01:01:31.110 align:middle line:84% we might even test that version with people in our 01:01:31.110 --> 01:01:31.950 align:middle line:90% target audience. 01:01:31.950 --> 01:01:35.180 align:middle line:84% But probably we would try to do some rudimentary art 01:01:35.180 --> 01:01:38.530 align:middle line:84% treatment before we put it in front of people, just so 01:01:38.530 --> 01:01:40.785 align:middle line:84% there's a little bit of context and it looks a little 01:01:40.785 --> 01:01:41.990 align:middle line:90% bit more like a game. 01:01:41.990 --> 01:01:43.450 align:middle line:90% And then-- 01:01:43.450 --> 01:01:44.370 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: So that we try to-- 01:01:44.370 --> 01:01:48.483 align:middle line:84% if there's story, this one has less story about it, but if 01:01:48.483 --> 01:01:51.205 align:middle line:84% there's story, as there are in some puzzles, we actually try 01:01:51.205 --> 01:01:51.635 align:middle line:90% to act it out. 01:01:51.635 --> 01:01:52.922 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:01:52.922 --> 01:01:54.410 align:middle line:90% resistance to doing it. 01:01:54.410 --> 01:01:56.890 align:middle line:90% So act out the character. 01:01:56.890 --> 01:01:59.635 align:middle line:84% You're the computer, when [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:01:59.635 --> 01:02:01.806 align:middle line:84% and so even if it's just a character giving a response to 01:02:01.806 --> 01:02:03.391 align:middle line:84% something that the player does. 01:02:03.391 --> 01:02:06.255 align:middle line:84% You try to do it in character, you try to get a sense of 01:02:06.255 --> 01:02:08.870 align:middle line:84% what-- because I think, even in that kind of rudimentary 01:02:08.870 --> 01:02:12.050 align:middle line:84% form you're engaging the player's imagination so you 01:02:12.050 --> 01:02:14.930 align:middle line:84% know whether or not they're interested in this character 01:02:14.930 --> 01:02:17.355 align:middle line:90% or the idea [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:02:17.355 --> 01:02:20.265 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Because I do master [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:02:20.265 --> 01:02:23.660 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And like a dungeon master you need to 01:02:23.660 --> 01:02:26.610 align:middle line:84% prepare, because it's hard to be the computer without also 01:02:26.610 --> 01:02:29.635 align:middle line:84% being the bottleneck if you're a human. 01:02:29.635 --> 01:02:33.660 align:middle line:84% And in fact we've done some games, not represented here, 01:02:33.660 --> 01:02:36.480 align:middle line:84% we've done some games that are real time, that if you want to 01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:40.508 align:middle line:84% prototype with people, then especially on paper, and you 01:02:40.508 --> 01:02:42.640 align:middle line:84% want to keep things moving, then you need to have more 01:02:42.640 --> 01:02:45.278 align:middle line:84% than one person be the computer, because there's just 01:02:45.278 --> 01:02:48.710 align:middle line:84% too much to track for one person to do it all. 01:02:48.710 --> 01:02:49.570 align:middle line:90% Or if you want to do-- 01:02:49.570 --> 01:02:53.566 align:middle line:84% sometimes we do hybrids, where we'll do a computer prototype 01:02:53.566 --> 01:02:56.440 align:middle line:84% but there's aspects of the game that are not represented 01:02:56.440 --> 01:02:58.070 align:middle line:84% through the interface or that logically we have a model, so 01:02:58.070 --> 01:03:02.180 align:middle line:84% we'll do players directing human 01:03:02.180 --> 01:03:06.190 align:middle line:90% interactions with the computer. 01:03:06.190 --> 01:03:09.092 align:middle line:84% Not players, designers, influencing those 01:03:09.092 --> 01:03:10.342 align:middle line:90% interactions. 01:03:10.342 --> 01:03:12.459 align:middle line:90% 01:03:12.459 --> 01:03:16.905 align:middle line:84% So anyway, this is a game that moved pretty much all the way 01:03:16.905 --> 01:03:20.175 align:middle line:84% to final design on paper, and then went straight to 01:03:20.175 --> 01:03:20.730 align:middle line:90% implementation. 01:03:20.730 --> 01:03:25.436 align:middle line:84% Some of the other games-- for instance, there's a game-- 01:03:25.436 --> 01:03:28.412 align:middle line:84% do you want to show [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:03:28.412 --> 01:03:29.900 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE], yeah. 01:03:29.900 --> 01:03:33.868 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: That's an example of a game that's a 01:03:33.868 --> 01:03:37.990 align:middle line:84% little bit harder to think about playing just on paper. 01:03:37.990 --> 01:03:38.520 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] we 01:03:38.520 --> 01:03:39.567 align:middle line:90% implemented this early. 01:03:39.567 --> 01:03:41.058 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, we did. 01:03:41.058 --> 01:03:48.520 align:middle line:90% 01:03:48.520 --> 01:03:54.740 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: So this is a game about modular arithmetic 01:03:54.740 --> 01:03:59.690 align:middle line:84% and common multiples and that sort of thing. 01:03:59.690 --> 01:04:01.230 align:middle line:84% So it's very hard to see on the screen. 01:04:01.230 --> 01:04:03.403 align:middle line:84% In the upper left there is an avatar. 01:04:03.403 --> 01:04:05.318 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: That's you. 01:04:05.318 --> 01:04:06.568 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:04:06.568 --> 01:04:08.570 align:middle line:90% 01:04:08.570 --> 01:04:11.320 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And you know from the story that your goal 01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:14.052 align:middle line:84% is to get to the golden eggs and avoid the 01:04:14.052 --> 01:04:14.534 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:04:14.534 --> 01:04:15.980 align:middle line:90% That much you know. 01:04:15.980 --> 01:04:21.790 align:middle line:84% And that you're in a factory where they make stuff. 01:04:21.790 --> 01:04:24.100 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Do you move your avatar? 01:04:24.100 --> 01:04:25.350 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:04:25.350 --> 01:04:40.440 align:middle line:90% 01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:41.690 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 01:04:41.690 --> 01:04:50.390 align:middle line:90% 01:04:50.390 --> 01:04:53.770 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: There is one flaw, by the way, in the 01:04:53.770 --> 01:04:56.420 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:04:56.420 --> 01:04:58.426 align:middle line:84% interface, because people don't realize they have to 01:04:58.426 --> 01:05:00.580 align:middle line:84% click to get their guy onto that thing. 01:05:00.580 --> 01:05:04.190 align:middle line:84% And it was supposed to start with the [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:05:04.190 --> 01:05:07.470 align:middle line:84% right where he was, that people would [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:05:07.470 --> 01:05:07.623 align:middle line:90% click. 01:05:07.623 --> 01:05:10.410 align:middle line:84% Because now by-- what should I try now. 01:05:10.410 --> 01:05:10.906 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Four. 01:05:10.906 --> 01:05:12.394 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: We're going to go-- 01:05:12.394 --> 01:05:16.362 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Four or nine. 01:05:16.362 --> 01:05:18.346 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Six. 01:05:18.346 --> 01:05:18.842 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Four. 01:05:18.842 --> 01:05:19.834 align:middle line:90% Four. 01:05:19.834 --> 01:05:20.826 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Six. 01:05:20.826 --> 01:05:23.306 align:middle line:84% Then you can let him get the [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:05:23.306 --> 01:05:25.290 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I'll go for six. 01:05:25.290 --> 01:05:29.490 align:middle line:90% 01:05:29.490 --> 01:05:31.280 align:middle line:90% Bam. 01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:32.400 align:middle line:90% Four is a subject that-- 01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:33.880 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, can we move [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:05:33.880 --> 01:05:34.870 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: But you'll notice that that's all in 01:05:34.870 --> 01:05:35.510 align:middle line:90% different amounts. 01:05:35.510 --> 01:05:38.930 align:middle line:84% And so it's really that modular arithmetic. 01:05:38.930 --> 01:05:43.480 align:middle line:84% So 12 will take me once around on one of them, but 01:05:43.480 --> 01:05:45.736 align:middle line:84% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] on another one. 01:05:45.736 --> 01:05:48.582 align:middle line:84% And you start doing simultaneous equations to 01:05:48.582 --> 01:05:50.270 align:middle line:90% solve this. 01:05:50.270 --> 01:05:51.960 align:middle line:90% This level's hard. 01:05:51.960 --> 01:05:53.870 align:middle line:84% I think maybe the hardest puzzle we designed in the 01:05:53.870 --> 01:05:57.870 align:middle line:84% whole game is level three of this, where every step you've 01:05:57.870 --> 01:06:01.460 align:middle line:90% got to align two bridges. 01:06:01.460 --> 01:06:02.850 align:middle line:90% It's serious work. 01:06:02.850 --> 01:06:05.602 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Are you trying to avoid that monster? 01:06:05.602 --> 01:06:06.250 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, you've got to avoid the monster. 01:06:06.250 --> 01:06:06.690 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Which isn't always hard. 01:06:06.690 --> 01:06:09.890 align:middle line:84% But you have to keep in mind, sometimes it needs, instead of 01:06:09.890 --> 01:06:12.630 align:middle line:84% going around once, particularly one on the nine 01:06:12.630 --> 01:06:20.030 align:middle line:84% thing, maybe you go 10 and he'll always go on 01:06:20.030 --> 01:06:20.665 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:06:20.665 --> 01:06:22.214 align:middle line:84% shows up, to make [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:06:22.214 --> 01:06:23.660 align:middle line:90% to show up and [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:06:23.660 --> 01:06:26.070 align:middle line:84% So this is really the [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:06:26.070 --> 01:06:27.034 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: As of what? 01:06:27.034 --> 01:06:28.284 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Yes. 01:06:28.284 --> 01:06:30.408 align:middle line:90% 01:06:30.408 --> 01:06:31.960 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Anyway, again [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:06:31.960 --> 01:06:34.100 align:middle line:84% you can say, hey, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:06:34.100 --> 01:06:35.530 align:middle line:90% math, school math at all. 01:06:35.530 --> 01:06:39.230 align:middle line:84% There's no school math in this game. 01:06:39.230 --> 01:06:40.740 align:middle line:84% But I think there are really interesting 01:06:40.740 --> 01:06:43.030 align:middle line:90% things to think about. 01:06:43.030 --> 01:06:43.980 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:06:43.980 --> 01:06:45.550 align:middle line:90% said with that character. 01:06:45.550 --> 01:06:46.870 align:middle line:90% If he walks or not. 01:06:46.870 --> 01:06:49.445 align:middle line:90% I think we [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:06:49.445 --> 01:06:49.780 align:middle line:90% anyway. 01:06:49.780 --> 01:06:51.680 align:middle line:84% But you have to keep in mind, there are 01:06:51.680 --> 01:06:52.160 align:middle line:90% two forms of learning. 01:06:52.160 --> 01:06:54.470 align:middle line:84% One is learning the game, how to play the game. 01:06:54.470 --> 01:06:56.940 align:middle line:84% And the other one is learning-- there's a problem 01:06:56.940 --> 01:06:58.580 align:middle line:84% solving, you've got a puzzle in the game. 01:06:58.580 --> 01:07:02.010 align:middle line:84% And I think it's sometimes like special education games. 01:07:02.010 --> 01:07:04.440 align:middle line:90% It's so easy to mix this. 01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:07.190 align:middle line:84% Because sometimes you make the coolest educational game and 01:07:07.190 --> 01:07:08.260 align:middle line:90% it's really interesting. 01:07:08.260 --> 01:07:10.000 align:middle line:90% But [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:07:10.000 --> 01:07:13.180 align:middle line:84% character wouldn't move if you don't press the mouse button. 01:07:13.180 --> 01:07:16.885 align:middle line:84% So he would always stand there in the beginning and he would 01:07:16.885 --> 01:07:17.650 align:middle line:90% get attacked. 01:07:17.650 --> 01:07:20.770 align:middle line:84% And I think the mixture of both forms of learning is 01:07:20.770 --> 01:07:23.030 align:middle line:84% quite interesting to keep in mind when you're prototyping. 01:07:23.030 --> 01:07:25.310 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, there's two answers to that. 01:07:25.310 --> 01:07:27.000 align:middle line:90% One is, I never think. 01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:29.880 align:middle line:84% just because we want people to think hard, I don't think the 01:07:29.880 --> 01:07:31.080 align:middle line:84% interface should be the thing that they're 01:07:31.080 --> 01:07:31.560 align:middle line:90% thinking hard about. 01:07:31.560 --> 01:07:35.350 align:middle line:84% It's always tempting to say, oh, that's a really 01:07:35.350 --> 01:07:36.480 align:middle line:90% hard thing to solve. 01:07:36.480 --> 01:07:38.240 align:middle line:90% How do I make him jump? 01:07:38.240 --> 01:07:42.364 align:middle line:84% But no, I think generally it should not be hard to figure 01:07:42.364 --> 01:07:42.830 align:middle line:90% out how to make him jump. 01:07:42.830 --> 01:07:46.560 align:middle line:84% Or walk left or right, or how to open a door. 01:07:46.560 --> 01:07:50.040 align:middle line:84% Unless that's a puzzle, and it's easy to delude yourself 01:07:50.040 --> 01:07:51.552 align:middle line:84% that by making the interface hard... 01:07:51.552 --> 01:07:54.793 align:middle line:84% On the other hand, there is this other challenge, which is 01:07:54.793 --> 01:07:56.800 align:middle line:84% that kids do have different degrees of 01:07:56.800 --> 01:07:58.125 align:middle line:90% literacy around games. 01:07:58.125 --> 01:08:00.722 align:middle line:84% And it's hard to figure out where the sweet spot is. 01:08:00.722 --> 01:08:02.935 align:middle line:84% That's one I don't have an easy answer for. 01:08:02.935 --> 01:08:04.570 align:middle line:84% Because some large percentage of the audience naturally 01:08:04.570 --> 01:08:07.572 align:middle line:90% knows, try and get to the end. 01:08:07.572 --> 01:08:09.130 align:middle line:90% Knows what winning means. 01:08:09.130 --> 01:08:10.870 align:middle line:84% But there's some kids who don't. 01:08:10.870 --> 01:08:13.330 align:middle line:84% And the question is, if you make the game, if you bend 01:08:13.330 --> 01:08:15.870 align:middle line:90% over backwards-- 01:08:15.870 --> 01:08:19.819 align:middle line:84% I watched my mother play this, and it was horrible. 01:08:19.819 --> 01:08:24.484 align:middle line:84% Because she just was totally clueless about where to go. 01:08:24.484 --> 01:08:27.690 align:middle line:84% But I think if I try to set up the game to work for my 01:08:27.690 --> 01:08:31.660 align:middle line:84% mother, you can only work with all this explicit instruction. 01:08:31.660 --> 01:08:36.330 align:middle line:84% So hopefully with kids it's less of an issue. 01:08:36.330 --> 01:08:38.370 align:middle line:84% There's more, I think, uniform game literacy. 01:08:38.370 --> 01:08:39.419 align:middle line:90% But it's always a challenge. 01:08:39.419 --> 01:08:41.000 align:middle line:90% No game appeals to everybody. 01:08:41.000 --> 01:08:43.880 align:middle line:90% And you do want-- 01:08:43.880 --> 01:08:45.365 align:middle line:84% I don't think those of us who make learning games have a 01:08:45.365 --> 01:08:46.399 align:middle line:90% good answer to that. 01:08:46.399 --> 01:08:48.390 align:middle line:84% I don't think we can ever make a game that every kid would 01:08:48.390 --> 01:08:52.397 align:middle line:90% play with equal-- 01:08:52.397 --> 01:08:55.430 align:middle line:84% we should never claim that we're going 01:08:55.430 --> 01:08:59.103 align:middle line:90% to get 100% on that. 01:08:59.103 --> 01:09:02.825 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: One thing that I know that you've noticed is 01:09:02.825 --> 01:09:08.044 align:middle line:84% the amount of tolerance that kids and adults have for 01:09:08.044 --> 01:09:10.580 align:middle line:90% frustration, when-- 01:09:10.580 --> 01:09:14.200 align:middle line:84% I've seen kids say, I hate this game. 01:09:14.200 --> 01:09:20.232 align:middle line:84% This game is too hard and they'll just keep going at it. 01:09:20.232 --> 01:09:24.624 align:middle line:84% Whereas the adults have this tendency to get really 01:09:24.624 --> 01:09:27.552 align:middle line:84% embarrassed when they can't solve it first time. 01:09:27.552 --> 01:09:30.689 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: It happens when you're 26. 01:09:30.689 --> 01:09:33.060 align:middle line:84% You suddenly sit down and say, well, I'm not 01:09:33.060 --> 01:09:34.080 align:middle line:90% very good at this. 01:09:34.080 --> 01:09:38.223 align:middle line:84% You may be a gamer all your life, but it's having another 01:09:38.223 --> 01:09:40.211 align:middle line:90% adult watching you. 01:09:40.211 --> 01:09:43.855 align:middle line:84% There's some point or another where you suddenly say, I'm 01:09:43.855 --> 01:09:44.187 align:middle line:90% not good at this. 01:09:44.187 --> 01:09:46.175 align:middle line:90% I don't know why it happens. 01:09:46.175 --> 01:09:48.660 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:09:48.660 --> 01:09:49.910 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:09:49.910 --> 01:09:53.630 align:middle line:90% 01:09:53.630 --> 01:09:55.650 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Can you do negative numbers? 01:09:55.650 --> 01:09:56.983 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Not in this one, no. 01:09:56.983 --> 01:09:59.298 align:middle line:90% That's a good idea, though. 01:09:59.298 --> 01:10:00.690 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:10:00.690 --> 01:10:02.090 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: In much of the arithmetic you could always do 01:10:02.090 --> 01:10:04.312 align:middle line:84% it as put in a larger number and [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:10:04.312 --> 01:10:05.764 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: That's right. 01:10:05.764 --> 01:10:08.184 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: I have a question for [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:10:08.184 --> 01:10:11.572 align:middle line:84% Because in some of them we were hearing from you guys 01:10:11.572 --> 01:10:15.626 align:middle line:84% about coming, more or less from a game design angle into 01:10:15.626 --> 01:10:19.618 align:middle line:84% designing games as a learning purpose. 01:10:19.618 --> 01:10:21.614 align:middle line:90% And you kind of [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:10:21.614 --> 01:10:22.612 align:middle line:90% the other way around. 01:10:22.612 --> 01:10:24.608 align:middle line:84% You came in from the [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:10:24.608 --> 01:10:28.766 align:middle line:84% Are there things to keep in mind when you're working 01:10:28.766 --> 01:10:31.095 align:middle line:84% across disciplines, that game designers know? 01:10:31.095 --> 01:10:34.610 align:middle line:90% 01:10:34.610 --> 01:10:38.450 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: So, I think one more difference that I still 01:10:38.450 --> 01:10:42.330 align:middle line:84% have, or see between the way I approach games and the way 01:10:42.330 --> 01:10:46.170 align:middle line:84% educational games approach games design, I'm more focused 01:10:46.170 --> 01:10:49.030 align:middle line:84% on learning as an experience, more in abstract form. 01:10:49.030 --> 01:10:51.030 align:middle line:84% That doesn't mean that I wouldn't be invested in that, 01:10:51.030 --> 01:10:54.285 align:middle line:84% but that's not what I've been working on yet here. 01:10:54.285 --> 01:10:56.530 align:middle line:84% So for instance, after that it was-- 01:10:56.530 --> 01:11:00.780 align:middle line:84% so the research question was how, how can players overcome 01:11:00.780 --> 01:11:04.550 align:middle line:90% expectations that are wrong. 01:11:04.550 --> 01:11:09.620 align:middle line:84% And so the idea was not to use educational stuff like numbers 01:11:09.620 --> 01:11:14.130 align:middle line:84% or whatever, but more, can we develop patterns in games that 01:11:14.130 --> 01:11:17.700 align:middle line:84% players who realize very quickly, and are they ready to 01:11:17.700 --> 01:11:20.360 align:middle line:84% give them up if they realize that they think what they've 01:11:20.360 --> 01:11:21.600 align:middle line:90% seen is wrong. 01:11:21.600 --> 01:11:24.856 align:middle line:84% So, for me it was very interesting because I come at 01:11:24.856 --> 01:11:26.890 align:middle line:90% an abstract theory inside. 01:11:26.890 --> 01:11:29.210 align:middle line:84% And so we were developing prototypes. 01:11:29.210 --> 01:11:31.450 align:middle line:84% And it's very interesting when you come from the abstract 01:11:31.450 --> 01:11:33.910 align:middle line:90% idea to prototypes. 01:11:33.910 --> 01:11:37.520 align:middle line:84% But paper prototyping is perfect because it really made 01:11:37.520 --> 01:11:40.150 align:middle line:84% me as a scientist come to the ground. 01:11:40.150 --> 01:11:42.150 align:middle line:84% Because of course I can read [UNINTELLIGIBLE] and all these 01:11:42.150 --> 01:11:45.700 align:middle line:84% people and say, wow, experiences this and that. 01:11:45.700 --> 01:11:48.720 align:middle line:84% And then you suddenly have pen and paper and sit there and 01:11:48.720 --> 01:11:54.780 align:middle line:84% think about a game that, is it a metaphor for your theory. 01:11:54.780 --> 01:12:00.230 align:middle line:84% And so I think my takeaway was that paper prototyping was 01:12:00.230 --> 01:12:02.020 align:middle line:90% very healthy for me. 01:12:02.020 --> 01:12:04.790 align:middle line:84% And with the team to come down to the fact, what is really 01:12:04.790 --> 01:12:06.180 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] in the game. 01:12:06.180 --> 01:12:06.670 align:middle line:90% What can we really-- 01:12:06.670 --> 01:12:09.890 align:middle line:84% I think at the beginning I was a bit inexperienced in 01:12:09.890 --> 01:12:11.610 align:middle line:90% prototyping. 01:12:11.610 --> 01:12:13.080 align:middle line:90% Wow, we can all do that later. 01:12:13.080 --> 01:12:16.370 align:middle line:84% We can do the cool stuff when we get to programming. 01:12:16.370 --> 01:12:18.270 align:middle line:84% But then I realized, no, we can't. 01:12:18.270 --> 01:12:21.960 align:middle line:84% We cannot do it as a paper prototype, how should we do it 01:12:21.960 --> 01:12:23.100 align:middle line:90% in programming. 01:12:23.100 --> 01:12:25.290 align:middle line:90% But what is changing? 01:12:25.290 --> 01:12:29.390 align:middle line:84% And I think for us it was very interesting. 01:12:29.390 --> 01:12:32.910 align:middle line:84% So I think one experience we had is, we had them develop 01:12:32.910 --> 01:12:34.460 align:middle line:90% different prototypes. 01:12:34.460 --> 01:12:37.390 align:middle line:84% And so I think that was healthy for us not to make one 01:12:37.390 --> 01:12:40.250 align:middle line:84% paper prototype but then think how we can do it better. 01:12:40.250 --> 01:12:42.770 align:middle line:90% But that's what [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:12:42.770 --> 01:12:45.650 align:middle line:90% a lot of prototypes. 01:12:45.650 --> 01:12:46.895 align:middle line:90% And to stay open. 01:12:46.895 --> 01:12:50.280 align:middle line:84% And even if you spend three or four days on a prototype, if 01:12:50.280 --> 01:12:52.440 align:middle line:84% it doesn't work with others the moment you show them. 01:12:52.440 --> 01:12:54.040 align:middle line:84% And they go like, what, these are the rules. 01:12:54.040 --> 01:12:55.260 align:middle line:90% Are you sure? 01:12:55.260 --> 01:12:57.132 align:middle line:90% I don't get it. 01:12:57.132 --> 01:13:00.865 align:middle line:84% If you explain the tenth time, maybe-- maybe it was a cool 01:13:00.865 --> 01:13:03.540 align:middle line:84% idea back home or with your friend, maybe, but it just 01:13:03.540 --> 01:13:04.680 align:middle line:90% doesn't work. 01:13:04.680 --> 01:13:07.900 align:middle line:84% And so this experience in the prototypes was 01:13:07.900 --> 01:13:09.310 align:middle line:90% very healthy for us. 01:13:09.310 --> 01:13:10.580 align:middle line:90% And then coming to the point. 01:13:10.580 --> 01:13:13.614 align:middle line:84% And I realized for me it was important that somebody coming 01:13:13.614 --> 01:13:16.230 align:middle line:84% in the room, playing a prototype for five minutes, 01:13:16.230 --> 01:13:18.880 align:middle line:84% kind of understands the core mechanic. 01:13:18.880 --> 01:13:21.130 align:middle line:90% If this is not happening-- 01:13:21.130 --> 01:13:24.416 align:middle line:84% who takes the five minutes to understand a core mechanic? 01:13:24.416 --> 01:13:25.620 align:middle line:90% Nobody, today. 01:13:25.620 --> 01:13:27.000 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: That would be, like in this game, just walking 01:13:27.000 --> 01:13:28.176 align:middle line:90% onto a [INAUDIBLE]. 01:13:28.176 --> 01:13:29.112 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Right. 01:13:29.112 --> 01:13:30.520 align:middle line:90% That's right. 01:13:30.520 --> 01:13:32.800 align:middle line:90% And so, yeah. 01:13:32.800 --> 01:13:35.350 align:middle line:84% I think, coming from a different perspective, again, 01:13:35.350 --> 01:13:40.030 align:middle line:84% prototyping is kind of like the way to get in the game. 01:13:40.030 --> 01:13:42.690 align:middle line:90% Even as the designer. 01:13:42.690 --> 01:13:44.770 align:middle line:84% Because from then on, you know what you're talking about. 01:13:44.770 --> 01:13:46.682 align:middle line:84% And so I had to lose a lot of my abstract 01:13:46.682 --> 01:13:48.158 align:middle line:90% thoughts in the process. 01:13:48.158 --> 01:13:49.470 align:middle line:90% And then the playtesting. 01:13:49.470 --> 01:13:52.995 align:middle line:84% So it was interesting sometimes to see, even if the 01:13:52.995 --> 01:13:55.420 align:middle line:84% prototype is cool, then you have a prototype. 01:13:55.420 --> 01:13:57.610 align:middle line:84% And then people come in and say, [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:13:57.610 --> 01:13:58.480 align:middle line:90% again. 01:13:58.480 --> 01:14:00.332 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:14:00.332 --> 01:14:01.260 align:middle line:90% it's so easy. 01:14:01.260 --> 01:14:04.470 align:middle line:84% But then you can start to stick with your idea or say 01:14:04.470 --> 01:14:08.370 align:middle line:84% no, maybe I have to go down with the theoretical aspect 01:14:08.370 --> 01:14:10.780 align:middle line:90% and really look [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:14:10.780 --> 01:14:12.030 align:middle line:90% for the players. 01:14:12.030 --> 01:14:13.890 align:middle line:90% 01:14:13.890 --> 01:14:15.390 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And another thing about prototyping, it's 01:14:15.390 --> 01:14:17.440 align:middle line:90% not focus groups. 01:14:17.440 --> 01:14:21.540 align:middle line:84% So it's not a case of, --sure you want to put it in front of 01:14:21.540 --> 01:14:23.060 align:middle line:90% as many people as possible. 01:14:23.060 --> 01:14:25.980 align:middle line:84% But you really want to, I think, avoid stuff like what 01:14:25.980 --> 01:14:27.852 align:middle line:84% did you like, what didn't you like. 01:14:27.852 --> 01:14:28.710 align:middle line:90% Those kind of questions. 01:14:28.710 --> 01:14:30.110 align:middle line:84% Because people want to be helpful. 01:14:30.110 --> 01:14:34.140 align:middle line:84% And sometimes the piece they didn't like was actually the 01:14:34.140 --> 01:14:35.500 align:middle line:84% part where they were working hardest. 01:14:35.500 --> 01:14:36.810 align:middle line:84% So it's like I didn't like that I had to 01:14:36.810 --> 01:14:37.800 align:middle line:90% jump over the wall. 01:14:37.800 --> 01:14:40.780 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE] jump over the wall. 01:14:40.780 --> 01:14:43.140 align:middle line:84% And it may not really mean that if you took that out, 01:14:43.140 --> 01:14:44.210 align:middle line:84% that they would enjoy the game more. 01:14:44.210 --> 01:14:45.710 align:middle line:84% In fact, they might not enjoy it at all. 01:14:45.710 --> 01:14:47.470 align:middle line:84% So you have to be really careful about that. 01:14:47.470 --> 01:14:49.004 align:middle line:90% And people want to please you. 01:14:49.004 --> 01:14:49.960 align:middle line:84% So they'll say oh, it's good, and stuff like that. 01:14:49.960 --> 01:14:52.690 align:middle line:84% I think it's really important that what you do with 01:14:52.690 --> 01:14:56.236 align:middle line:84% prototyping is watch the player. 01:14:56.236 --> 01:14:59.110 align:middle line:84% And then trust yourself as a designer. 01:14:59.110 --> 01:15:02.160 align:middle line:84% Rather than ask them what you should do, because they will 01:15:02.160 --> 01:15:03.310 align:middle line:84% try and be helpful and they'll come up with wrong 01:15:03.310 --> 01:15:04.640 align:middle line:90% suggestions. 01:15:04.640 --> 01:15:08.160 align:middle line:84% Watch them and use your best judgment as designer as to 01:15:08.160 --> 01:15:10.000 align:middle line:84% what they're reacting to, and why they're reacting 01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:11.360 align:middle line:90% the way they are. 01:15:11.360 --> 01:15:13.350 align:middle line:90% And try to fix it. 01:15:13.350 --> 01:15:16.730 align:middle line:84% And then you try to get some questions, try to maybe get 01:15:16.730 --> 01:15:17.820 align:middle line:90% some access to their thinking. 01:15:17.820 --> 01:15:20.700 align:middle line:84% But don't think that they necessarily know what was 01:15:20.700 --> 01:15:25.150 align:middle line:84% interesting to them, or what would make them happy. 01:15:25.150 --> 01:15:26.060 align:middle line:90% Don't ask those questions. 01:15:26.060 --> 01:15:29.006 align:middle line:84% Those are focus group questions, and you shouldn't 01:15:29.006 --> 01:15:30.601 align:middle line:84% ask them because it's not going to give you 01:15:30.601 --> 01:15:31.461 align:middle line:90% the answers you want. 01:15:31.461 --> 01:15:33.425 align:middle line:84% You've got to trust yourself at some level 01:15:33.425 --> 01:15:34.420 align:middle line:90% as to what's happening. 01:15:34.420 --> 01:15:36.570 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And something that I also had to learn was, 01:15:36.570 --> 01:15:41.120 align:middle line:84% if you have the focus test or the playtest, and then you 01:15:41.120 --> 01:15:42.490 align:middle line:90% realize you have problems. 01:15:42.490 --> 01:15:45.240 align:middle line:84% And it's really healthy to write all the problems. 01:15:45.240 --> 01:15:47.670 align:middle line:84% And then brainstorm different solutions. 01:15:47.670 --> 01:15:50.520 align:middle line:84% Don't ever, when you discuss it, try to come up with a 01:15:50.520 --> 01:15:51.510 align:middle line:90% solution immediately. 01:15:51.510 --> 01:15:55.000 align:middle line:84% Because what happens is, you quickly develop one solution. 01:15:55.000 --> 01:15:56.940 align:middle line:84% And then you go and end up with another problem, but you 01:15:56.940 --> 01:16:00.870 align:middle line:84% don't realize that sometimes, some problems stick together. 01:16:00.870 --> 01:16:02.840 align:middle line:84% Or sometimes you realize, well, we have so many 01:16:02.840 --> 01:16:06.192 align:middle line:84% problems, just because of this little aspect of the game. 01:16:06.192 --> 01:16:07.600 align:middle line:84% Why don't we just let it [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:16:07.600 --> 01:16:10.305 align:middle line:84% If you don't do that, you start to spend two hours in 01:16:10.305 --> 01:16:13.430 align:middle line:84% solving a problem then realize it was wrong. 01:16:13.430 --> 01:16:14.900 align:middle line:90% Or you never realize it again. 01:16:14.900 --> 01:16:15.910 align:middle line:90% So have [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:16:15.910 --> 01:16:18.475 align:middle line:84% problems and quick solutions where you [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:16:18.475 --> 01:16:19.560 align:middle line:90% or not. 01:16:19.560 --> 01:16:22.706 align:middle line:84% Make solution, solution, solution and then with the 01:16:22.706 --> 01:16:26.010 align:middle line:84% same problem a few weeks later again. 01:16:26.010 --> 01:16:28.680 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And I just want to clarify, focus tests and 01:16:28.680 --> 01:16:30.740 align:middle line:84% focus groups are two very different things. 01:16:30.740 --> 01:16:33.360 align:middle line:90% 01:16:33.360 --> 01:16:35.560 align:middle line:84% The kind of resource we're talking about is focus 01:16:35.560 --> 01:16:38.040 align:middle line:84% testing, which is specifically identifying individual 01:16:38.040 --> 01:16:40.200 align:middle line:90% problems in the game. 01:16:40.200 --> 01:16:43.755 align:middle line:84% And a focus group is asking them what they liked, which is 01:16:43.755 --> 01:16:46.980 align:middle line:84% actually very not useful for most product design in fact. 01:16:46.980 --> 01:16:49.230 align:middle line:90% Games in particular. 01:16:49.230 --> 01:16:51.420 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: One piece of advice that [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:16:51.420 --> 01:16:54.154 align:middle line:84% really important if you're a smart college student, like an 01:16:54.154 --> 01:16:57.802 align:middle line:84% MIT student, is that you've probably learned in spite of 01:16:57.802 --> 01:17:00.100 align:middle line:84% your education, by having someone sit in front of a 01:17:00.100 --> 01:17:02.000 align:middle line:84% class and tell you what was going on. 01:17:02.000 --> 01:17:03.860 align:middle line:90% And you somehow absorbed it. 01:17:03.860 --> 01:17:06.650 align:middle line:84% And that's why you've got here. 01:17:06.650 --> 01:17:09.150 align:middle line:84% But lots of people don't learn that. 01:17:09.150 --> 01:17:12.616 align:middle line:84% And it's really hard to avoid the tendency in the game to 01:17:12.616 --> 01:17:14.340 align:middle line:84% just tell people what they should know. 01:17:14.340 --> 01:17:16.770 align:middle line:84% Which is, sort of for my money, like when you meet 01:17:16.770 --> 01:17:18.490 align:middle line:84% someone who speaks a foreign language. 01:17:18.490 --> 01:17:20.755 align:middle line:84% You don't understand each other so you both start 01:17:20.755 --> 01:17:24.450 align:middle line:90% speaking slower and louder. 01:17:24.450 --> 01:17:25.450 align:middle line:84% And I think that's what a lot of education-- 01:17:25.450 --> 01:17:27.850 align:middle line:84% it's all a bad education in general does. 01:17:27.850 --> 01:17:29.540 align:middle line:90% Speaks slower and louder. 01:17:29.540 --> 01:17:30.300 align:middle line:90% And [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:17:30.300 --> 01:17:32.755 align:middle line:90% educational games. 01:17:32.755 --> 01:17:34.360 align:middle line:84% So just remember that just because you got it the first 01:17:34.360 --> 01:17:37.210 align:middle line:84% time someone told you doesn't mean that everybody else-- 01:17:37.210 --> 01:17:39.534 align:middle line:84% it's not just about explaining it better. 01:17:39.534 --> 01:17:43.020 align:middle line:84% It's about giving them a different way of learning. 01:17:43.020 --> 01:17:45.510 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Any questions for our guests? 01:17:45.510 --> 01:17:55.970 align:middle line:90% 01:17:55.970 --> 01:17:56.670 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I just want to say something. 01:17:56.670 --> 01:17:57.420 align:middle line:84% Have you ever heard of firehose games 01:17:57.420 --> 01:17:58.532 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:17:58.532 --> 01:17:59.210 align:middle line:90% forum. 01:17:59.210 --> 01:18:02.010 align:middle line:84% So I told them, I know a guy who works there. 01:18:02.010 --> 01:18:05.250 align:middle line:84% And he said, we've got a focus group tomorrow night. 01:18:05.250 --> 01:18:07.655 align:middle line:84% They're PS3 set to release in a few months. 01:18:07.655 --> 01:18:09.840 align:middle line:84% Does anyone want to go tomorrow night? 01:18:09.840 --> 01:18:12.280 align:middle line:84% Seven o'clock, about an hour to an hour and a half. 01:18:12.280 --> 01:18:14.520 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: That includes [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:18:14.520 --> 01:18:15.640 align:middle line:90% and [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:18:15.640 --> 01:18:17.732 align:middle line:90% are part of Firehose Games. 01:18:17.732 --> 01:18:21.296 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Are they looking for people who haven't played the 01:18:21.296 --> 01:18:21.620 align:middle line:90% game before? 01:18:21.620 --> 01:18:22.106 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Maybe. 01:18:22.106 --> 01:18:23.564 align:middle line:84% We're going to have [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:18:23.564 --> 01:18:28.910 align:middle line:90% 01:18:28.910 --> 01:18:30.615 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Can I ask a question, [UNINTELLIGIBLE]? 01:18:30.615 --> 01:18:35.115 align:middle line:90% 01:18:35.115 --> 01:18:38.890 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: So the question I would have to use is, 01:18:38.890 --> 01:18:40.350 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:18:40.350 --> 01:18:44.750 align:middle line:84% in his play biography, educational games? 01:18:44.750 --> 01:18:47.410 align:middle line:84% Have you played it, would you say it was an important 01:18:47.410 --> 01:18:48.200 align:middle line:90% experience to you? 01:18:48.200 --> 01:18:50.620 align:middle line:84% That even, maybe it's embarrassing now when the 01:18:50.620 --> 01:18:52.070 align:middle line:90% other ones are listening. 01:18:52.070 --> 01:18:54.660 align:middle line:84% But does anybody out there [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:18:54.660 --> 01:18:56.896 align:middle line:84% Zambonis or whatever that game was? 01:18:56.896 --> 01:18:59.340 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Best game of all time. 01:18:59.340 --> 01:19:01.140 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 01:19:01.140 --> 01:19:03.240 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It was similar in that you had a 01:19:03.240 --> 01:19:04.645 align:middle line:84% [UNINTELLIGIBLE] you were taking around and had to solve 01:19:04.645 --> 01:19:05.880 align:middle line:90% little puzzles. 01:19:05.880 --> 01:19:10.240 align:middle line:84% And underlying them was math and simple math equations. 01:19:10.240 --> 01:19:10.670 align:middle line:90% But-- 01:19:10.670 --> 01:19:11.130 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 01:19:11.130 --> 01:19:11.627 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Pizza. 01:19:11.627 --> 01:19:14.609 align:middle line:90% You divide a pizza, it's cool. 01:19:14.609 --> 01:19:18.090 align:middle line:90% 01:19:18.090 --> 01:19:19.520 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: We can't let that slip. 01:19:19.520 --> 01:19:20.610 align:middle line:90% That's Scott's game. 01:19:20.610 --> 01:19:21.860 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 01:19:21.860 --> 01:19:33.100 align:middle line:90% 01:19:33.100 --> 01:19:35.530 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: I think it's interesting to think about, if 01:19:35.530 --> 01:19:37.290 align:middle line:84% you have any experience like that, what would make 01:19:37.290 --> 01:19:39.014 align:middle line:90% you like the game. 01:19:39.014 --> 01:19:42.665 align:middle line:84% I think it's very rich, because of all the people who 01:19:42.665 --> 01:19:44.100 align:middle line:84% have that experience with educational games, and then 01:19:44.100 --> 01:19:45.580 align:middle line:84% think about them when you design it. 01:19:45.580 --> 01:19:47.790 align:middle line:90% Think about the influence. 01:19:47.790 --> 01:19:49.410 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: There's this series of games called 01:19:49.410 --> 01:19:50.250 align:middle line:90% Thinking Things. 01:19:50.250 --> 01:19:55.840 align:middle line:84% And one of them had a mode that basically was kind of 01:19:55.840 --> 01:19:59.950 align:middle line:84% like programming, in that you could place different types of 01:19:59.950 --> 01:20:03.580 align:middle line:84% units on a grid, and then give them instructions in a loop. 01:20:03.580 --> 01:20:05.560 align:middle line:84% So, say, go forward then left then right. 01:20:05.560 --> 01:20:07.950 align:middle line:90% And they could paint a square. 01:20:07.950 --> 01:20:09.710 align:middle line:84% And so what you'd end up doing is, if it's a starting 01:20:09.710 --> 01:20:11.848 align:middle line:84% configuration, a certain set of rules, you could get them 01:20:11.848 --> 01:20:13.525 align:middle line:84% to draw patterns and stuff like that. 01:20:13.525 --> 01:20:17.320 align:middle line:84% And what used to happen is, my dad would say, can you get two 01:20:17.320 --> 01:20:19.390 align:middle line:84% inverted triangles drawn on the screen. 01:20:19.390 --> 01:20:22.060 align:middle line:84% And I would sit there and try to basically program it. 01:20:22.060 --> 01:20:23.200 align:middle line:84% I realized that it was actually a 01:20:23.200 --> 01:20:24.478 align:middle line:90% programming game, so. 01:20:24.478 --> 01:20:27.050 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: LOGO does a lot of that sort of thing too 01:20:27.050 --> 01:20:29.140 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] 01:20:29.140 --> 01:20:30.650 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: There's a bunch of games that have done that. 01:20:30.650 --> 01:20:33.120 align:middle line:90% The last puzzle [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:20:33.120 --> 01:20:35.630 align:middle line:90% some of that stuff too. 01:20:35.630 --> 01:20:38.472 align:middle line:84% And there's a product out just now called, that I'm hooked on 01:20:38.472 --> 01:20:41.376 align:middle line:84% right now, called Train Yard, which is on the 01:20:41.376 --> 01:20:42.344 align:middle line:90% iPad and the iPhone. 01:20:42.344 --> 01:20:42.828 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:20:42.828 --> 01:20:43.312 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: What? 01:20:43.312 --> 01:20:45.260 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: I thought that would be your game. 01:20:45.260 --> 01:20:47.260 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And it really is a 01:20:47.260 --> 01:20:49.060 align:middle line:90% programming game, basically. 01:20:49.060 --> 01:20:51.376 align:middle line:90% It's kind of cool. 01:20:51.376 --> 01:20:52.700 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Robuzzle. 01:20:52.700 --> 01:20:55.248 align:middle line:90% [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:20:55.248 --> 01:20:56.236 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:20:56.236 --> 01:21:01.176 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I was just going to say that [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:21:01.176 --> 01:21:02.980 align:middle line:90% educational context. 01:21:02.980 --> 01:21:03.830 align:middle line:90% Where-- 01:21:03.830 --> 01:21:07.980 align:middle line:84% Dinosaur Discovery, which is an ancient game, I played it 01:21:07.980 --> 01:21:12.050 align:middle line:84% when I was in kindergarten [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:21:12.050 --> 01:21:18.226 align:middle line:84% And it was an adventure text puzzle game. 01:21:18.226 --> 01:21:19.640 align:middle line:90% Which was Band Leader. 01:21:19.640 --> 01:21:20.890 align:middle line:84% And then Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego. 01:21:20.890 --> 01:21:24.170 align:middle line:90% 01:21:24.170 --> 01:21:26.045 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Another classic game that I 01:21:26.045 --> 01:21:29.050 align:middle line:90% played, back when-- 01:21:29.050 --> 01:21:32.125 align:middle line:84% about the time when things started getting popular, is 01:21:32.125 --> 01:21:32.944 align:middle line:90% Midnight East. 01:21:32.944 --> 01:21:37.590 align:middle line:90% It was a math busters game. 01:21:37.590 --> 01:21:38.840 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:21:38.840 --> 01:21:40.396 align:middle line:90% 01:21:40.396 --> 01:21:41.646 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 01:21:41.646 --> 01:21:49.270 align:middle line:90% 01:21:49.270 --> 01:21:50.749 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: The Incredible Machine. 01:21:50.749 --> 01:21:53.214 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: That's like the [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:21:53.214 --> 01:21:55.186 align:middle line:90% It's really [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:21:55.186 --> 01:21:56.436 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I loved that game. 01:21:56.436 --> 01:21:59.630 align:middle line:90% 01:21:59.630 --> 01:22:00.880 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE] 01:22:00.880 --> 01:22:04.220 align:middle line:90% 01:22:04.220 --> 01:22:06.655 align:middle line:90% back in the good days. 01:22:06.655 --> 01:22:10.307 align:middle line:84% I really enjoyed that game that sounds like, I think we 01:22:10.307 --> 01:22:12.012 align:middle line:84% all want to add to the education game. 01:22:12.012 --> 01:22:14.220 align:middle line:84% It's not like, oh my god, I had to play an education game, 01:22:14.220 --> 01:22:16.970 align:middle line:84% but more in, they could be really in [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 01:22:16.970 --> 01:22:17.475 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 01:22:17.475 --> 01:22:18.855 align:middle line:90% and it came with almanac. 01:22:18.855 --> 01:22:23.710 align:middle line:84% They encouraged you to to do research, in fact. 01:22:23.710 --> 01:22:26.990 align:middle line:84% It wasn't cheating to look up the answers. 01:22:26.990 --> 01:22:32.006 align:middle line:90%