WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.090 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.090 --> 00:00:02.490 align:middle line:84% The following content is provided under a Creative 00:00:02.490 --> 00:00:04.030 align:middle line:90% Commons license. 00:00:04.030 --> 00:00:06.330 align:middle line:84% Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:06.330 --> 00:00:10.720 align:middle line:84% continue to offer high-quality, educational resources for free. 00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:13.320 align:middle line:84% To make a donation or view additional materials 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:17.280 align:middle line:84% from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:18.450 align:middle line:90% at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:18.450 --> 00:00:21.128 align:middle line:90% 00:00:21.128 --> 00:00:23.860 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: OK, So let's get started. 00:00:23.860 --> 00:00:26.680 align:middle line:84% Today we have got the pleasure of two local game builders. 00:00:26.680 --> 00:00:30.040 align:middle line:84% So they're here to talk to us about some of their work. 00:00:30.040 --> 00:00:33.989 align:middle line:84% We've got Glenn, and I don't have your last name 00:00:33.989 --> 00:00:35.030 align:middle line:90% in front of me right now. 00:00:35.030 --> 00:00:35.530 align:middle line:90% Given. 00:00:35.530 --> 00:00:36.250 align:middle line:90% Glenn Given. 00:00:36.250 --> 00:00:38.336 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Glenn Given from Games by Play Date. 00:00:38.336 --> 00:00:40.775 align:middle line:84% And you're located in New Hampshire? 00:00:40.775 --> 00:00:41.640 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yes. 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:43.340 align:middle line:90% Well, 2/3 of us are. 00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:46.920 align:middle line:90% It's like a three-person studio. 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:50.732 align:middle line:84% Two of us in Andrew and one of us who's in [INAUDIBLE]. 00:00:50.732 --> 00:00:51.440 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: Great. 00:00:51.440 --> 00:00:53.247 align:middle line:84% And then you do board games and card games? 00:00:53.247 --> 00:00:54.580 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yes, a lot of them. 00:00:54.580 --> 00:00:55.780 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: And then Mack. 00:00:55.780 --> 00:00:57.120 align:middle line:90% How do you spell your last name? 00:00:57.120 --> 00:00:58.661 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Mackenzie Cameron. 00:00:58.661 --> 00:01:01.830 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: And he is one of the co-organizers from the Game 00:01:01.830 --> 00:01:04.350 align:middle line:84% Makers Guild, a local meet up, meets 00:01:04.350 --> 00:01:08.810 align:middle line:84% up at various places around the Cambridge area 00:01:08.810 --> 00:01:12.350 align:middle line:84% for people who are interested in developing board games and card 00:01:12.350 --> 00:01:14.432 align:middle line:84% games and meet with each other and learn more 00:01:14.432 --> 00:01:15.390 align:middle line:90% about how to make them. 00:01:15.390 --> 00:01:20.044 align:middle line:84% So each here, we're going to go just Glenn then Mack. 00:01:20.044 --> 00:01:23.350 align:middle line:84% Talk a little bit about what you do, about the kind of work 00:01:23.350 --> 00:01:24.898 align:middle line:84% you do, and then afterwards, we're 00:01:24.898 --> 00:01:26.200 align:middle line:90% going to open up for questions. 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:27.810 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Sure. 00:01:27.810 --> 00:01:30.739 align:middle line:90% So make games. 00:01:30.739 --> 00:01:31.530 align:middle line:90% I make board games. 00:01:31.530 --> 00:01:33.276 align:middle line:90% I make card games. 00:01:33.276 --> 00:01:36.480 align:middle line:84% And I try and never stop doing them. 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:39.990 align:middle line:90% I don't have a particular-- 00:01:39.990 --> 00:01:45.660 align:middle line:84% anything that I can play that I can make happen, I'll do it. 00:01:45.660 --> 00:01:48.480 align:middle line:90% We do Targi games. 00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:53.100 align:middle line:84% So I just got 2,500 copies of my first party game delivered 00:01:53.100 --> 00:01:55.920 align:middle line:84% to my house three hours ago, which is interesting, 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.040 align:middle line:84% moving those myself and then getting here. 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:04.020 align:middle line:84% But I also am developing a gigantic, stupid board 00:02:04.020 --> 00:02:06.750 align:middle line:84% game that's just called a Big Dumb Wargame, which 00:02:06.750 --> 00:02:09.870 align:middle line:84% is like these guys play Axis & Allies or any of those old. 00:02:09.870 --> 00:02:13.380 align:middle line:84% So I used to play that when I was in high school 00:02:13.380 --> 00:02:16.730 align:middle line:84% because I liked being lonely and then 00:02:16.730 --> 00:02:19.230 align:middle line:84% I decided I wanted to make a version of that that's actually 00:02:19.230 --> 00:02:19.860 align:middle line:90% fun. 00:02:19.860 --> 00:02:22.650 align:middle line:84% We're also working on a game called 00:02:22.650 --> 00:02:25.610 align:middle line:90% Pack the Pack, which is-- 00:02:25.610 --> 00:02:27.197 align:middle line:84% you guys know Cards Against Humanity? 00:02:27.197 --> 00:02:28.780 align:middle line:84% So they're running this contest called 00:02:28.780 --> 00:02:31.520 align:middle line:84% the Cards Against Humanity Tabletop Deathmatch, 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:35.040 align:middle line:84% and they got indie developers from all over the country 00:02:35.040 --> 00:02:35.980 align:middle line:90% to submit stuff. 00:02:35.980 --> 00:02:39.840 align:middle line:84% And so one of our games is in that. 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:42.960 align:middle line:84% It's like if you've ever played Old Diablo, 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:44.460 align:middle line:84% remember when you would collect loot 00:02:44.460 --> 00:02:45.710 align:middle line:84% and you would have to fit it in your bag 00:02:45.710 --> 00:02:47.010 align:middle line:90% and it was all weird shaped? 00:02:47.010 --> 00:02:50.010 align:middle line:84% So it's been inventory Tetris games 00:02:50.010 --> 00:02:54.370 align:middle line:84% where everyone is pulling tiles, which are effectively dominoes 00:02:54.370 --> 00:02:57.120 align:middle line:84% with different images on them, and then you're 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.250 align:middle line:90% aligning them to make gems. 00:02:59.250 --> 00:03:03.680 align:middle line:84% So it's like an analog version of Super Puzzle Fighter. 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:05.400 align:middle line:84% But the moral to the point, everything 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:06.780 align:middle line:84% I've just described to you doesn't tell you 00:03:06.780 --> 00:03:09.240 align:middle line:84% anything about the games except in reference to other games 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:10.910 align:middle line:90% that I talked about. 00:03:10.910 --> 00:03:14.740 align:middle line:90% But that's how I do design. 00:03:14.740 --> 00:03:16.650 align:middle line:84% I look at games that I like and then 00:03:16.650 --> 00:03:20.240 align:middle line:84% I dissect them and take the parts that I want 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:22.470 align:middle line:84% and then put them back together with other parts 00:03:22.470 --> 00:03:24.690 align:middle line:84% and see if there's a theme that goes with it. 00:03:24.690 --> 00:03:25.470 align:middle line:90% But yeah. 00:03:25.470 --> 00:03:31.350 align:middle line:84% Also, I did printing and publishing for 10 years, 00:03:31.350 --> 00:03:33.970 align:middle line:84% and then that drove me madder than normal. 00:03:33.970 --> 00:03:37.050 align:middle line:90% So I left that to do this. 00:03:37.050 --> 00:03:42.040 align:middle line:84% So me and my team very rapidly design games. 00:03:42.040 --> 00:03:48.690 align:middle line:84% We bring a design all the way to a publishing level 00:03:48.690 --> 00:03:53.700 align:middle line:84% in about a month, from conception to execution. 00:03:53.700 --> 00:03:58.380 align:middle line:84% They're not big, huge endeavors, but it's 00:03:58.380 --> 00:04:01.392 align:middle line:84% good to stay really busy with it and exercise with it 00:04:01.392 --> 00:04:03.600 align:middle line:84% and realize that sometimes a project is going to fail 00:04:03.600 --> 00:04:05.558 align:middle line:84% and you can back away from it and go, ah, well, 00:04:05.558 --> 00:04:06.770 align:middle line:90% that month is kind of a bust. 00:04:06.770 --> 00:04:09.300 align:middle line:84% And so we're actually also exploring 00:04:09.300 --> 00:04:10.770 align:middle line:84% different kind of business models 00:04:10.770 --> 00:04:14.620 align:middle line:84% for board games because this isn't really a huge leap. 00:04:14.620 --> 00:04:18.029 align:middle line:84% There's very few people who are going to be very wealthy on it 00:04:18.029 --> 00:04:21.132 align:middle line:90% or even do good on it. 00:04:21.132 --> 00:04:22.840 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Scare them off, right? 00:04:22.840 --> 00:04:24.048 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah, seriously. 00:04:24.048 --> 00:04:26.700 align:middle line:84% So maybe you make the next Settlers of Catan 00:04:26.700 --> 00:04:31.280 align:middle line:84% and then you're selling a steady 5,000 copies a year, 00:04:31.280 --> 00:04:34.650 align:middle line:84% which is really not that much when you think of it. 00:04:34.650 --> 00:04:37.290 align:middle line:84% Depending on the way your business is set up, 00:04:37.290 --> 00:04:39.210 align:middle line:84% you may see a fraction of that money. 00:04:39.210 --> 00:04:43.320 align:middle line:84% So that's why a lot of very, very good designers, 00:04:43.320 --> 00:04:46.500 align:middle line:84% like I'm a big fan of Bruno Faidutti who just came out 00:04:46.500 --> 00:04:48.910 align:middle line:90% with Mascarade. 00:04:48.910 --> 00:04:50.309 align:middle line:90% Mascarade is a really cool game. 00:04:50.309 --> 00:04:51.600 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: [INAUDIBLE]? 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:52.950 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 00:04:52.950 --> 00:04:56.940 align:middle line:84% So he'll put out a couple of games, 00:04:56.940 --> 00:05:00.750 align:middle line:84% and then he just gets a cut from each of them. 00:05:00.750 --> 00:05:06.270 align:middle line:84% But using short-run printing, we directly 00:05:06.270 --> 00:05:13.800 align:middle line:84% manufacture our monthly games, and then people subscribe to us 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:15.690 align:middle line:90% through stuff like Patreon. 00:05:15.690 --> 00:05:19.979 align:middle line:84% And then we send them physical copies of the games 00:05:19.979 --> 00:05:20.520 align:middle line:90% that we make. 00:05:20.520 --> 00:05:24.090 align:middle line:84% And I brought nine different games 00:05:24.090 --> 00:05:26.827 align:middle line:84% that I've made in the past six months. 00:05:26.827 --> 00:05:28.410 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: I didn't bring any. 00:05:28.410 --> 00:05:29.160 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:30.840 align:middle line:84% Well, you can borrow some of mine. 00:05:30.840 --> 00:05:34.020 align:middle line:84% And then you can borrow the bad ones. 00:05:34.020 --> 00:05:36.450 align:middle line:84% And then also we go to Kickstarter 00:05:36.450 --> 00:05:40.560 align:middle line:84% for larger games, ones where we want to make 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.670 align:middle line:90% multi-thousand copies of it. 00:05:43.670 --> 00:05:47.970 align:middle line:84% But yeah, I will never stop talking. 00:05:47.970 --> 00:05:48.628 align:middle line:90% OK, cool. 00:05:48.628 --> 00:05:54.030 align:middle line:90% 00:05:54.030 --> 00:05:55.280 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:05:55.280 --> 00:05:56.860 align:middle line:90% Board games are really awesome. 00:05:56.860 --> 00:05:58.620 align:middle line:90% I think that you guys know that. 00:05:58.620 --> 00:06:00.750 align:middle line:84% And they're more awesome now than they used to be, 00:06:00.750 --> 00:06:03.690 align:middle line:84% not just because they're more complicated because complexity 00:06:03.690 --> 00:06:05.497 align:middle line:84% isn't what makes a game really good. 00:06:05.497 --> 00:06:07.080 align:middle line:84% In fact, usually a really complex game 00:06:07.080 --> 00:06:09.000 align:middle line:84% is really bad because it's a sign 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:11.430 align:middle line:84% that there was a huge problem and that the designer said, 00:06:11.430 --> 00:06:12.554 align:middle line:90% oh, I know how to fix this. 00:06:12.554 --> 00:06:15.310 align:middle line:84% I'll add another page to the rule book. 00:06:15.310 --> 00:06:18.070 align:middle line:90% That's poor planning. 00:06:18.070 --> 00:06:21.660 align:middle line:84% But games are better now because people want them more. 00:06:21.660 --> 00:06:24.480 align:middle line:84% I mean, what I think the reason people want them more 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:33.130 align:middle line:84% is because we crave physical, analog time with other people 00:06:33.130 --> 00:06:39.750 align:middle line:84% now more so than when I was a kid because we're 00:06:39.750 --> 00:06:42.000 align:middle line:84% super interconnected with smartphones and all 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.270 align:middle line:84% that stuff that we can't live our life without. 00:06:45.270 --> 00:06:48.090 align:middle line:84% I'm twittering all the way down here doing 80 on the highway 00:06:48.090 --> 00:06:50.280 align:middle line:90% because I'm a bad person. 00:06:50.280 --> 00:06:53.790 align:middle line:84% But the ability to say, OK, I've been 00:06:53.790 --> 00:06:55.500 align:middle line:84% staring at these screens all day long, 00:06:55.500 --> 00:06:58.260 align:middle line:90% and my entire life is scheduled. 00:06:58.260 --> 00:07:00.180 align:middle line:84% I need to schedule my relaxing time 00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:02.850 align:middle line:84% and it needs to not be me staring at the screen. 00:07:02.850 --> 00:07:07.290 align:middle line:84% So I think there's something in the zeitgeist 00:07:07.290 --> 00:07:09.330 align:middle line:84% of that personal feeling that people 00:07:09.330 --> 00:07:12.720 align:middle line:84% had that has caused a resurgence in face-to-face gaming. 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:14.510 align:middle line:90% 00:07:14.510 --> 00:07:15.510 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah. 00:07:15.510 --> 00:07:17.100 align:middle line:84% Because Even like apps and stuff, 00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:18.930 align:middle line:84% I will straight up just hands down beat 00:07:18.930 --> 00:07:20.915 align:middle line:84% anyone that plays the Race for the Galaxy app 00:07:20.915 --> 00:07:23.690 align:middle line:84% than playing them face to face because the skills that you 00:07:23.690 --> 00:07:24.940 align:middle line:90% need are completely different. 00:07:24.940 --> 00:07:26.930 align:middle line:84% Just like this board games do really 00:07:26.930 --> 00:07:28.830 align:middle line:84% well that you don't find in other mediums. 00:07:28.830 --> 00:07:30.840 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: So I play a ton of Netrunner, 00:07:30.840 --> 00:07:32.132 align:middle line:90% which is a really awesome game. 00:07:32.132 --> 00:07:34.215 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: The rule book on that is awful. 00:07:34.215 --> 00:07:35.960 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: The rulebook is the worst. 00:07:35.960 --> 00:07:38.226 align:middle line:84% But some people have hacked together. 00:07:38.226 --> 00:07:39.600 align:middle line:84% There's a program called Octagon, 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:42.210 align:middle line:84% which is like a virtual tabletop where you can basically 00:07:42.210 --> 00:07:44.664 align:middle line:84% simulate any game that's been made. 00:07:44.664 --> 00:07:46.830 align:middle line:84% I mean, there's a whole interesting other discussion 00:07:46.830 --> 00:07:52.980 align:middle line:84% of how do you do internet piracy of board games. 00:07:52.980 --> 00:07:54.880 align:middle line:90% That could be a class. 00:07:54.880 --> 00:07:56.220 align:middle line:90% It's a good idea for a class. 00:07:56.220 --> 00:07:57.690 align:middle line:84% Anyway, so Octagon is really neat 00:07:57.690 --> 00:08:00.720 align:middle line:84% except one of the things about Netrunner is that-- 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.490 align:middle line:84% if you played it, raise your hands so I know-- 00:08:03.490 --> 00:08:05.340 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Does the original version count? 00:08:05.340 --> 00:08:05.620 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yes. 00:08:05.620 --> 00:08:06.121 align:middle line:90% Sure. 00:08:06.121 --> 00:08:07.578 align:middle line:84% Although the new version is better. 00:08:07.578 --> 00:08:09.630 align:middle line:84% You should totally get back into the new version. 00:08:09.630 --> 00:08:11.520 align:middle line:90% It's amazing. 00:08:11.520 --> 00:08:16.500 align:middle line:84% So it's by the same guy who designed Magic, the Gathering. 00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:19.860 align:middle line:84% It has some sort of similarities to that. 00:08:19.860 --> 00:08:22.860 align:middle line:84% But what makes it really neat is that it's an asymmetrical game. 00:08:22.860 --> 00:08:26.070 align:middle line:84% Like I'll be an evil corporation, for instance, 00:08:26.070 --> 00:08:29.430 align:middle line:84% and you might be a scrappy computer hacker. 00:08:29.430 --> 00:08:33.539 align:middle line:84% And you're trying to infiltrate my servers, which 00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:36.809 align:middle line:84% are represented by my deck of cards, my hand of cards, 00:08:36.809 --> 00:08:39.360 align:middle line:84% my discard pile of cards, or like other things that I 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:42.929 align:middle line:84% have installed and find what my nefarious plans are. 00:08:42.929 --> 00:08:44.760 align:middle line:84% And you get all these crazy programs that 00:08:44.760 --> 00:08:48.126 align:middle line:84% allow you to circumnavigate my defenses, 00:08:48.126 --> 00:08:49.500 align:middle line:84% and I get all these programs that 00:08:49.500 --> 00:08:51.480 align:middle line:84% allow me to put down defenses, or maybe I 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:53.250 align:middle line:84% get a card that says, I orbitally 00:08:53.250 --> 00:08:57.690 align:middle line:84% bombard your apartment building, which is always fun. 00:08:57.690 --> 00:09:00.870 align:middle line:84% But a huge part of that game, although you can play it 00:09:00.870 --> 00:09:04.960 align:middle line:84% on Octagon, a tremendous part of that game 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:09.800 align:middle line:84% is it's bluffing because what makes the game really rich 00:09:09.800 --> 00:09:13.470 align:middle line:84% is not that it's asymmetrical, but there's a huge component 00:09:13.470 --> 00:09:14.500 align:middle line:90% of hidden information. 00:09:14.500 --> 00:09:16.500 align:middle line:84% As a corporation in that game, everything 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:18.900 align:middle line:84% I do I do by placing my cards face down. 00:09:18.900 --> 00:09:20.790 align:middle line:84% So I know what they are, but you don't. 00:09:20.790 --> 00:09:24.707 align:middle line:84% And you have to start to count cards a little bit 00:09:24.707 --> 00:09:26.790 align:middle line:84% or start to make educated guesses about what you-- 00:09:26.790 --> 00:09:30.430 align:middle line:90% 00:09:30.430 --> 00:09:34.320 align:middle line:84% can I attack his hand even though I have 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:37.380 align:middle line:90% no offensive capabilities here? 00:09:37.380 --> 00:09:39.870 align:middle line:84% Is that going to mean that he explodes 00:09:39.870 --> 00:09:43.890 align:middle line:84% like a thing in my brain and my computer hacker dies? 00:09:43.890 --> 00:09:45.430 align:middle line:90% There's all that. 00:09:45.430 --> 00:09:48.170 align:middle line:84% So a lot of that game is about managing 00:09:48.170 --> 00:09:54.390 align:middle line:84% what's called pilt, which is something you get in poker. 00:09:54.390 --> 00:09:57.550 align:middle line:84% If you play poker, when you start losing poker, 00:09:57.550 --> 00:10:00.850 align:middle line:84% if you forget that poker is kind of a long game 00:10:00.850 --> 00:10:02.850 align:middle line:84% and that you should really be playing it 00:10:02.850 --> 00:10:05.100 align:middle line:84% with an eye on what the rest of your weak looks 00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:06.930 align:middle line:84% like as opposed to this hand, you'll 00:10:06.930 --> 00:10:09.720 align:middle line:84% start to play worse because you're doing worse 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.300 align:middle line:90% and you'll just pilt. 00:10:12.300 --> 00:10:16.770 align:middle line:84% So it's kind of like a tell, but it's more than just saying 00:10:16.770 --> 00:10:18.840 align:middle line:90% I've got a bad card in my hand. 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:23.060 align:middle line:84% It's going, I'm losing so I need to play harder, which 00:10:23.060 --> 00:10:25.470 align:middle line:84% would be great if it was handball 00:10:25.470 --> 00:10:29.460 align:middle line:84% or something, but in a card, that doesn't work 00:10:29.460 --> 00:10:31.710 align:middle line:84% because really what you want to do 00:10:31.710 --> 00:10:35.730 align:middle line:84% is establish regularity in what you're doing, 00:10:35.730 --> 00:10:38.615 align:middle line:84% especially in a game that's that mathematically perfect. 00:10:38.615 --> 00:10:39.900 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: I think I'm going to go ahead and introduce 00:10:39.900 --> 00:10:40.399 align:middle line:90% myself. 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:42.054 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Please do. 00:10:42.054 --> 00:10:43.955 align:middle line:90% I don't even know where I am. 00:10:43.955 --> 00:10:46.080 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: So my name is Mackenzie Cameron. 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:50.220 align:middle line:84% I'm an event coordinator for the Game Makers Guild. 00:10:50.220 --> 00:10:52.500 align:middle line:84% So we host a lot of events, which 00:10:52.500 --> 00:10:55.130 align:middle line:84% you guys have had any games at any level of prototype, 00:10:55.130 --> 00:10:59.454 align:middle line:84% whether it's nearly finished or you just scrapped down 00:10:59.454 --> 00:11:01.620 align:middle line:84% something on a napkin and you're like it might play. 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:05.340 align:middle line:84% Let me go grab some dice or whatever, we accept that. 00:11:05.340 --> 00:11:07.470 align:middle line:90% Check out our site. 00:11:07.470 --> 00:11:09.530 align:middle line:90% meetup/gamemakersguild. 00:11:09.530 --> 00:11:12.025 align:middle line:84% Actually, we just recently got gamemakersguild.com. 00:11:12.025 --> 00:11:13.275 align:middle line:90% So you can go to that website. 00:11:13.275 --> 00:11:14.399 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: That's a coup. 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:16.800 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: --which I'm a little [INAUDIBLE]. 00:11:16.800 --> 00:11:17.880 align:middle line:90% It's sweet. 00:11:17.880 --> 00:11:21.176 align:middle line:84% I'm slowly trying to make sure that we build copies for that. 00:11:21.176 --> 00:11:23.026 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: [INAUDIBLE]. 00:11:23.026 --> 00:11:24.780 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: gamemakersguild.com, 00:11:24.780 --> 00:11:26.090 align:middle line:90% which is awesome. 00:11:26.090 --> 00:11:28.423 align:middle line:84% I don't know how we managed to get that without somebody 00:11:28.423 --> 00:11:30.190 align:middle line:90% else already having it. 00:11:30.190 --> 00:11:33.420 align:middle line:84% But I host some of other events that we hose. 00:11:33.420 --> 00:11:35.040 align:middle line:84% We have your standard play testing, 00:11:35.040 --> 00:11:39.330 align:middle line:84% but we also do indie board games showcases, actually. 00:11:39.330 --> 00:11:43.200 align:middle line:84% I've hosted that in Brookline three times now, 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:45.487 align:middle line:84% where we just get anyone that has a cool design. 00:11:45.487 --> 00:11:47.570 align:middle line:84% So make your designs, and then we try and bring it 00:11:47.570 --> 00:11:48.990 align:middle line:90% out to the public. 00:11:48.990 --> 00:11:50.791 align:middle line:84% And then what's the other stuff that I do? 00:11:50.791 --> 00:11:53.040 align:middle line:84% I try to get my hands in everything board game related 00:11:53.040 --> 00:11:54.492 align:middle line:90% in Boston. 00:11:54.492 --> 00:11:56.910 align:middle line:84% I help out at Knight Moves, the board game 00:11:56.910 --> 00:11:59.740 align:middle line:84% cafe out in Brookline, which is a lot of fun. 00:11:59.740 --> 00:12:03.330 align:middle line:84% If you guys don't know about it, you pay $10, you get in. 00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:05.490 align:middle line:84% They have a library of something like 700 games. 00:12:05.490 --> 00:12:07.260 align:middle line:84% You can play for as long as you like 00:12:07.260 --> 00:12:08.892 align:middle line:90% with anybody that's around. 00:12:08.892 --> 00:12:12.840 align:middle line:84% I also do a board game seen to web comic, overboard-comic.com. 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:15.385 align:middle line:90% 00:12:15.385 --> 00:12:17.845 align:middle line:90% And then there's one more thing. 00:12:17.845 --> 00:12:21.410 align:middle line:84% I'm going to be doing a panel of techs this year. 00:12:21.410 --> 00:12:22.890 align:middle line:84% Me and five other folks are going 00:12:22.890 --> 00:12:26.530 align:middle line:84% to be talking about board game language, which 00:12:26.530 --> 00:12:27.950 align:middle line:90% should be pretty interesting. 00:12:27.950 --> 00:12:29.470 align:middle line:84% It's talk like a board game geek, 00:12:29.470 --> 00:12:30.553 align:middle line:90% if anyone is going to PAX. 00:12:30.553 --> 00:12:33.074 align:middle line:90% Who's going to PAX? 00:12:33.074 --> 00:12:33.740 align:middle line:90% Not many of you. 00:12:33.740 --> 00:12:34.730 align:middle line:90% You should totally go. 00:12:34.730 --> 00:12:35.670 align:middle line:90% It's the best thing. 00:12:35.670 --> 00:12:38.820 align:middle line:84% It's The reason I moved to Boston. 00:12:38.820 --> 00:12:42.060 align:middle line:84% And then in the sort of a distant future, 00:12:42.060 --> 00:12:46.940 align:middle line:84% I've got plans for my maiden voyage into Kickstarter 00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:51.390 align:middle line:84% called Killer Croquet, which is the croquet-based murder 00:12:51.390 --> 00:12:52.000 align:middle line:90% simulator. 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:54.030 align:middle line:90% That will be a board game. 00:12:54.030 --> 00:12:56.540 align:middle line:90% And it's amazing. 00:12:56.540 --> 00:12:58.700 align:middle line:84% Not to say that Glenn is wrong about everything, 00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:03.160 align:middle line:84% but I'm doing the one idea, build it up, 00:13:03.160 --> 00:13:04.590 align:middle line:84% do the kickstarter sort of thing. 00:13:04.590 --> 00:13:07.654 align:middle line:84% The rapid iteration is really important, 00:13:07.654 --> 00:13:09.570 align:middle line:84% but there's definitely lots of different paths 00:13:09.570 --> 00:13:11.585 align:middle line:84% towards making a board game and having it be successful. 00:13:11.585 --> 00:13:12.750 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: I think the main difference 00:13:12.750 --> 00:13:14.210 align:middle line:90% is that he has another job. 00:13:14.210 --> 00:13:14.980 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Oh, yeah. 00:13:14.980 --> 00:13:15.380 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: And I don't. 00:13:15.380 --> 00:13:17.000 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: That's true. 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:18.900 align:middle line:90% I do this for no money at all. 00:13:18.900 --> 00:13:19.650 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 00:13:19.650 --> 00:13:22.600 align:middle line:84% I did this for no money too, except that's a problem. 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:25.120 align:middle line:90% 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.170 align:middle line:90% So rapid iteration. 00:13:27.170 --> 00:13:32.850 align:middle line:84% But do you want to talk about how you went from game idea 00:13:32.850 --> 00:13:34.230 align:middle line:90% to the prototype? 00:13:34.230 --> 00:13:35.230 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Sure. 00:13:35.230 --> 00:13:38.162 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: I mean, do you want to let them ask questions? 00:13:38.162 --> 00:13:39.971 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: [INAUDIBLE]. 00:13:39.971 --> 00:13:40.470 align:middle line:90% Process. 00:13:40.470 --> 00:13:41.219 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 00:13:41.219 --> 00:13:43.210 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: And then the next question. 00:13:43.210 --> 00:13:45.460 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: So process. 00:13:45.460 --> 00:13:47.460 align:middle line:84% Mine is definitely rapid iteration, 00:13:47.460 --> 00:13:49.890 align:middle line:84% but I've finally settled on one idea 00:13:49.890 --> 00:13:53.450 align:middle line:84% that I actually watch you push forward rather than trying 00:13:53.450 --> 00:13:57.202 align:middle line:84% to bundle them up in small ideas, get the one big one. 00:13:57.202 --> 00:13:58.660 align:middle line:84% I think the main difference of that 00:13:58.660 --> 00:14:00.930 align:middle line:84% is that I'm hoping that with that one idea, 00:14:00.930 --> 00:14:07.120 align:middle line:84% I'll be able to use momentum to generally generate 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:12.210 align:middle line:84% more funding for the general brand name of my design studio. 00:14:12.210 --> 00:14:14.455 align:middle line:84% But coming up of that idea is definitely 00:14:14.455 --> 00:14:16.720 align:middle line:84% a rapid iteration process where you come up 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:19.450 align:middle line:90% with the very sketchy idea. 00:14:19.450 --> 00:14:21.336 align:middle line:84% Some designers start with a mechanic, 00:14:21.336 --> 00:14:23.210 align:middle line:84% so they're like I want to do something that's 00:14:23.210 --> 00:14:25.017 align:middle line:84% deck building where you build decks 00:14:25.017 --> 00:14:27.100 align:middle line:84% over the course of the game, which makes an engine 00:14:27.100 --> 00:14:29.700 align:middle line:84% that you then draw to then do other cool things. 00:14:29.700 --> 00:14:33.580 align:middle line:84% And then other designers, myself, I'm usually like this. 00:14:33.580 --> 00:14:36.290 align:middle line:84% Start with some sort of system or some sort of theme, 00:14:36.290 --> 00:14:40.030 align:middle line:84% like a croquet, and see if you can turn that into a board game 00:14:40.030 --> 00:14:42.190 align:middle line:84% by adding different mechanics and seeing what works 00:14:42.190 --> 00:14:45.877 align:middle line:84% and what doesn't, which the Game Makers Guild is 00:14:45.877 --> 00:14:46.960 align:middle line:90% pretty fantastic for that. 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:48.834 align:middle line:84% Because when you get a game and you design it 00:14:48.834 --> 00:14:50.959 align:middle line:84% and on your first [INAUDIBLE] you look at your game 00:14:50.959 --> 00:14:52.084 align:middle line:90% and you go this is amazing. 00:14:52.084 --> 00:14:53.290 align:middle line:90% This is going to work. 00:14:53.290 --> 00:14:55.040 align:middle line:84% And you try and tell someone about it, 00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:56.800 align:middle line:84% and you try and have them play it. 00:14:56.800 --> 00:14:59.428 align:middle line:84% And that doesn't always work so well. 00:14:59.428 --> 00:15:00.594 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: It never works. 00:15:00.594 --> 00:15:01.570 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: It never works, actually. 00:15:01.570 --> 00:15:03.486 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: The first time you put your thing 00:15:03.486 --> 00:15:07.950 align:middle line:84% down on the table, it's going to maybe burst into flames. 00:15:07.950 --> 00:15:09.550 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah. 00:15:09.550 --> 00:15:12.460 align:middle line:84% A best case scenario is that it bursts into flames 00:15:12.460 --> 00:15:13.850 align:middle line:90% and you've made some mistakes. 00:15:13.850 --> 00:15:17.617 align:middle line:84% And it's basically unplayable because you need dice. 00:15:17.617 --> 00:15:19.450 align:middle line:84% And you realize that when you roll the dice, 00:15:19.450 --> 00:15:22.135 align:middle line:84% the numbers always add up to some combination of factors 00:15:22.135 --> 00:15:24.280 align:middle line:84% that when you apply that to system, 00:15:24.280 --> 00:15:26.557 align:middle line:84% it's like oh, well, you're supposed to move one space, 00:15:26.557 --> 00:15:29.140 align:middle line:84% but every time you do this, you actually just die immediately. 00:15:29.140 --> 00:15:29.848 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yes. 00:15:29.848 --> 00:15:32.040 align:middle line:84% So people can break it in mechanically. 00:15:32.040 --> 00:15:36.340 align:middle line:84% You find a tautology element in it and just repeatedly-- 00:15:36.340 --> 00:15:39.400 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: But one of the worst thing that you can 00:15:39.400 --> 00:15:42.160 align:middle line:84% do, I had a game that I was developing for a while. 00:15:42.160 --> 00:15:44.250 align:middle line:90% I pitched it to Game Salute. 00:15:44.250 --> 00:15:45.720 align:middle line:84% And it was a semi-cooperative game. 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.490 align:middle line:84% So the idea was that all players have 00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:50.490 align:middle line:84% to work together so that everybody doesn't lose, 00:15:50.490 --> 00:15:52.823 align:middle line:84% but then once you're going to reach a certain threshold, 00:15:52.823 --> 00:15:54.550 align:middle line:90% only one player can win. 00:15:54.550 --> 00:15:57.431 align:middle line:84% And kind of a difficult concept to really balance well, 00:15:57.431 --> 00:15:59.180 align:middle line:84% but I'm eventually going to really finagle 00:15:59.180 --> 00:16:00.520 align:middle line:90% it and get it working. 00:16:00.520 --> 00:16:02.374 align:middle line:84% And a bunch of my play testers played it, 00:16:02.374 --> 00:16:04.290 align:middle line:84% and it worked out exactly the way I wanted to. 00:16:04.290 --> 00:16:05.500 align:middle line:84% They'd play it to a certain point 00:16:05.500 --> 00:16:06.740 align:middle line:84% and then they turned on each other 00:16:06.740 --> 00:16:08.710 align:middle line:84% and then there's this big, climactic battle, 00:16:08.710 --> 00:16:09.585 align:middle line:90% and it was fantastic. 00:16:09.585 --> 00:16:12.180 align:middle line:84% I was Watching just the mechanics of how it works. 00:16:12.180 --> 00:16:15.467 align:middle line:84% And then I asked them, it seemed to work out really well. 00:16:15.467 --> 00:16:16.550 align:middle line:90% How did you guys enjoy it? 00:16:16.550 --> 00:16:17.920 align:middle line:90% They said, it was awful. 00:16:17.920 --> 00:16:19.390 align:middle line:90% I said but it works. 00:16:19.390 --> 00:16:22.050 align:middle line:84% You guys functioned in the way that was really functional. 00:16:22.050 --> 00:16:25.350 align:middle line:84% Yeah, but it wasn't fun, which is something 00:16:25.350 --> 00:16:29.410 align:middle line:84% that you realize as a designer, you're putting stuff together 00:16:29.410 --> 00:16:30.940 align:middle line:84% that the things that you necessarily 00:16:30.940 --> 00:16:34.060 align:middle line:84% think are really interesting or even if they're working 00:16:34.060 --> 00:16:36.225 align:middle line:84% don't necessarily come across as fun. 00:16:36.225 --> 00:16:37.932 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But that's really interesting. 00:16:37.932 --> 00:16:38.890 align:middle line:90% They finished the game. 00:16:38.890 --> 00:16:40.595 align:middle line:84% They didn't like playing the game, 00:16:40.595 --> 00:16:41.990 align:middle line:90% yet they both played the game. 00:16:41.990 --> 00:16:43.440 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yes. 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:45.626 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Is that common when you do play tests? 00:16:45.626 --> 00:16:46.126 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:16:46.126 --> 00:16:48.470 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: They're involved in the game. 00:16:48.470 --> 00:16:50.040 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Usually like, especially 00:16:50.040 --> 00:16:51.540 align:middle line:84% if it's in a dedicated play testing group 00:16:51.540 --> 00:16:53.415 align:middle line:84% and especially in the Game Makers Guild where 00:16:53.415 --> 00:17:00.400 align:middle line:84% it's primarily designers, that has its own downsides to it. 00:17:00.400 --> 00:17:03.070 align:middle line:84% But yeah, they'll see it through. 00:17:03.070 --> 00:17:05.650 align:middle line:84% I mean, they'll go [INAUDIBLE] on it, 00:17:05.650 --> 00:17:09.970 align:middle line:84% push that boulder all the way up just to see-- 00:17:09.970 --> 00:17:12.550 align:middle line:84% I mean, even when we found stuff that 00:17:12.550 --> 00:17:14.710 align:middle line:90% is completely broken in a game. 00:17:14.710 --> 00:17:17.890 align:middle line:84% I was playing a game where it was robots rising up 00:17:17.890 --> 00:17:20.829 align:middle line:84% against humans or something and there's this whole propaganda 00:17:20.829 --> 00:17:21.390 align:middle line:90% element. 00:17:21.390 --> 00:17:22.848 align:middle line:84% And then in the first few turns, we 00:17:22.848 --> 00:17:25.990 align:middle line:84% had identified that if you just went to this one space 00:17:25.990 --> 00:17:29.260 align:middle line:84% on the board and continued to buy propaganda posters, 00:17:29.260 --> 00:17:31.860 align:middle line:84% you could shut every other player out of the game. 00:17:31.860 --> 00:17:33.820 align:middle line:84% And so it's just I'm going to go there. 00:17:33.820 --> 00:17:34.737 align:middle line:90% I'm not going to move. 00:17:34.737 --> 00:17:36.945 align:middle line:84% I'm just going to keep doing this for the entire game 00:17:36.945 --> 00:17:37.570 align:middle line:90% until I win. 00:17:37.570 --> 00:17:39.130 align:middle line:84% And at that point, you could be like, OK, 00:17:39.130 --> 00:17:40.480 align:middle line:84% I don't want to play this game anymore. 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:42.730 align:middle line:84% This is dumb, but we just did it for a half hour 00:17:42.730 --> 00:17:45.250 align:middle line:84% and different people tried different things 00:17:45.250 --> 00:17:48.580 align:middle line:84% using the rule set to unseat that bad decision. 00:17:48.580 --> 00:17:51.550 align:middle line:84% So sometimes even when you identity something that's 00:17:51.550 --> 00:17:57.810 align:middle line:84% broken, it just gives you a new wound to start poking at to see 00:17:57.810 --> 00:17:59.505 align:middle line:90% does this hurt? 00:17:59.505 --> 00:18:00.570 align:middle line:90% It's like a doctor. 00:18:00.570 --> 00:18:03.400 align:middle line:90% That's how doctors work. 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:04.440 align:middle line:90% Stab you. 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:07.340 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Well, that's that doctor's game. 00:18:07.340 --> 00:18:08.770 align:middle line:90% Solve them. 00:18:08.770 --> 00:18:11.080 align:middle line:90% That's great. 00:18:11.080 --> 00:18:12.970 align:middle line:84% Encouraging play testers to finish a game 00:18:12.970 --> 00:18:15.214 align:middle line:90% can be an art in and of itself. 00:18:15.214 --> 00:18:16.630 align:middle line:84% Oftentimes, when you get designers 00:18:16.630 --> 00:18:19.361 align:middle line:84% that think that they can fix your game for you, 00:18:19.361 --> 00:18:21.610 align:middle line:84% it will be hard pressed to get them to finish the game 00:18:21.610 --> 00:18:22.420 align:middle line:90% because they're like no, no. 00:18:22.420 --> 00:18:24.360 align:middle line:84% This is where you should do it like this. 00:18:24.360 --> 00:18:26.200 align:middle line:84% But in trying to urge your play testers, 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:28.440 align:middle line:84% we actually had an event where we brought somebody 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:32.249 align:middle line:84% in who was an expert on generating play tests feedback, 00:18:32.249 --> 00:18:33.790 align:middle line:84% actually, for video games, which need 00:18:33.790 --> 00:18:36.772 align:middle line:84% a lot of paper prototyping, so it was a carry over. 00:18:36.772 --> 00:18:38.980 align:middle line:84% And often times it's just trying to encourage players 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:41.440 align:middle line:84% to go all the way through because sometimes even 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:44.140 align:middle line:84% as players, even with published games, 00:18:44.140 --> 00:18:46.540 align:middle line:84% you'll play a game like in the first playthrough you'll 00:18:46.540 --> 00:18:49.400 align:middle line:84% be like, oh, this one strategy is completely broken. 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:51.880 align:middle line:84% I don't know if anyone is familiar with the card game 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:54.340 align:middle line:90% Race for the Galaxy. 00:18:54.340 --> 00:18:56.170 align:middle line:90% Maybe a couple. 00:18:56.170 --> 00:18:59.030 align:middle line:84% But there's one particular strategy where the first time 00:18:59.030 --> 00:19:01.270 align:middle line:84% you play through, there's a military strategy 00:19:01.270 --> 00:19:03.330 align:middle line:84% where if you have a certain level of military, 00:19:03.330 --> 00:19:05.620 align:middle line:84% you can play a lot of cards roughly 00:19:05.620 --> 00:19:07.560 align:middle line:84% for free, which is based on the mechanics. 00:19:07.560 --> 00:19:10.018 align:middle line:84% And almost everybody that plays the game for the first time 00:19:10.018 --> 00:19:12.790 align:middle line:84% realizes, oh, man, military is such great strategy. 00:19:12.790 --> 00:19:14.625 align:middle line:90% How did they make this game? 00:19:14.625 --> 00:19:16.000 align:middle line:84% And then the second time you play 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:17.835 align:middle line:84% through, two players try and use that strategy, 00:19:17.835 --> 00:19:19.793 align:middle line:84% and the third player does a different strategy. 00:19:19.793 --> 00:19:22.730 align:middle line:84% And all of a sudden that's the strategy that's overpowered. 00:19:22.730 --> 00:19:25.980 align:middle line:84% And oftentimes, because the game doesn't completely 00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:29.050 align:middle line:84% lay itself out in front of all the players in the first play 00:19:29.050 --> 00:19:33.890 align:middle line:84% test, the perception that it's broken 00:19:33.890 --> 00:19:35.182 align:middle line:90% is not always necessarily true. 00:19:35.182 --> 00:19:37.265 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: And you can't find that kind of stuff 00:19:37.265 --> 00:19:38.305 align:middle line:90% until you play test it. 00:19:38.305 --> 00:19:39.610 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:19:39.610 --> 00:19:40.840 align:middle line:90% Questions? 00:19:40.840 --> 00:19:43.390 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Essentially, I think [INAUDIBLE] example of that 00:19:43.390 --> 00:19:46.170 align:middle line:84% is [INAUDIBLE], where how many people [INAUDIBLE], 00:19:46.170 --> 00:19:47.115 align:middle line:90% like oh, man. 00:19:47.115 --> 00:19:48.490 align:middle line:84% This strategy is so overpowering. 00:19:48.490 --> 00:19:52.372 align:middle line:84% This person scored 70 points with it, and none of us 00:19:52.372 --> 00:19:54.000 align:middle line:90% were above 40 or so. 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.380 align:middle line:90% And then you respond like 70. 00:19:56.380 --> 00:19:57.905 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:19:57.905 --> 00:20:00.030 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Well, there is always stuff like that. 00:20:00.030 --> 00:20:03.130 align:middle line:84% I think that illuminates another interesting thing 00:20:03.130 --> 00:20:05.584 align:middle line:90% about play testing. 00:20:05.584 --> 00:20:07.000 align:middle line:84% The group that you're play testing 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:09.790 align:middle line:84% with really can make a huge difference, 00:20:09.790 --> 00:20:11.520 align:middle line:84% not just is this person a designer 00:20:11.520 --> 00:20:13.070 align:middle line:84% or is this person not a designer, 00:20:13.070 --> 00:20:19.690 align:middle line:84% but how deeply they want to get into mastering that system 00:20:19.690 --> 00:20:22.082 align:middle line:84% or how much they care about mastering that system. 00:20:22.082 --> 00:20:23.540 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah, because we 00:20:23.540 --> 00:20:25.079 align:middle line:84% offer multiple tiers of play testing 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:26.120 align:middle line:90% at the Game Makers Guild. 00:20:26.120 --> 00:20:27.790 align:middle line:84% We have like just the standard where you come and you 00:20:27.790 --> 00:20:30.310 align:middle line:84% play with a bunch of designers, and they tell you it's crap. 00:20:30.310 --> 00:20:31.750 align:middle line:84% And you go home and you cry, and then 00:20:31.750 --> 00:20:33.570 align:middle line:84% you make it a little bit better and you feel a little better. 00:20:33.570 --> 00:20:35.835 align:middle line:84% But then also we have intensive play testing, 00:20:35.835 --> 00:20:38.875 align:middle line:84% which is phase two after you get a certain number. 00:20:38.875 --> 00:20:40.870 align:middle line:84% We have a nomination and serration system. 00:20:40.870 --> 00:20:44.590 align:middle line:84% We're trying to set up a game maker's seal of approval 00:20:44.590 --> 00:20:47.830 align:middle line:84% so we can hopefully better pitch our games to designers 00:20:47.830 --> 00:20:49.632 align:middle line:90% and the general public. 00:20:49.632 --> 00:20:52.209 align:middle line:84% But the phase two intensive was the chance for you 00:20:52.209 --> 00:20:54.250 align:middle line:84% to get the same group of people together and play 00:20:54.250 --> 00:20:56.200 align:middle line:90% your game a bunch of times. 00:20:56.200 --> 00:21:00.670 align:middle line:84% And I mean, again, part of the fun of that 00:21:00.670 --> 00:21:02.500 align:middle line:84% for Play Chesters, for a designer, 00:21:02.500 --> 00:21:04.780 align:middle line:84% it helps to iterate that even if the game is broken so 00:21:04.780 --> 00:21:07.200 align:middle line:84% you can find those little bits and pieces where 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:09.965 align:middle line:84% the games completely falls apart. 00:21:09.965 --> 00:21:13.755 align:middle line:84% But at Play Chester, it can kind of fun to just find-- 00:21:13.755 --> 00:21:16.360 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's like when you play a video game 00:21:16.360 --> 00:21:19.060 align:middle line:84% and find some element of the game 00:21:19.060 --> 00:21:20.980 align:middle line:84% where the graphics are screwed up 00:21:20.980 --> 00:21:24.132 align:middle line:84% or you fall through the world or almost 00:21:24.132 --> 00:21:25.340 align:middle line:90% just the exploration of that. 00:21:25.340 --> 00:21:26.714 align:middle line:84% And I have a lot of play testers. 00:21:26.714 --> 00:21:31.640 align:middle line:84% They enjoy finding the chinks in the armor, so to speak 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:33.390 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Well, I think the other thing 00:21:33.390 --> 00:21:35.880 align:middle line:84% about do repeat a play test especially 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:39.430 align:middle line:84% if it's the same group, has anybody played the Vlambeer 00:21:39.430 --> 00:21:42.700 align:middle line:84% game, Luftrausers, that just came out? 00:21:42.700 --> 00:21:43.214 align:middle line:90% It's great. 00:21:43.214 --> 00:21:44.005 align:middle line:90% You should play it. 00:21:44.005 --> 00:21:45.290 align:middle line:90% It's Totally worth the money. 00:21:45.290 --> 00:21:51.520 align:middle line:84% It's kind of like a Lunar Lander meets Asteroids game. 00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:56.410 align:middle line:84% So you're kind of drifting, but you can customize your airplane 00:21:56.410 --> 00:21:58.630 align:middle line:84% with different engines and different bodies 00:21:58.630 --> 00:21:59.770 align:middle line:90% and different weapons. 00:21:59.770 --> 00:22:02.090 align:middle line:84% And they all make the game play-- 00:22:02.090 --> 00:22:06.760 align:middle line:84% they all screw with the physics of the game in different ways. 00:22:06.760 --> 00:22:08.650 align:middle line:84% Well, unless you put three or four 00:22:08.650 --> 00:22:10.990 align:middle line:84% hours into playing that game, which 00:22:10.990 --> 00:22:15.590 align:middle line:84% is a lot of time for a very arcady-style game, 00:22:15.590 --> 00:22:18.375 align:middle line:84% you won't really know how do I get past this certain threshold 00:22:18.375 --> 00:22:19.850 align:middle line:90% of points. 00:22:19.850 --> 00:22:23.860 align:middle line:84% And what is my sweet spot in controlling this airplane 00:22:23.860 --> 00:22:28.170 align:middle line:84% that I can maximize how powerful I am with it. 00:22:28.170 --> 00:22:29.980 align:middle line:90% The same thing in boardgames. 00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:32.920 align:middle line:84% Often, it doesn't happen in that time frame. 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:36.040 align:middle line:84% But for instance, with Netrunner or Magical or whatever, 00:22:36.040 --> 00:22:38.080 align:middle line:84% you play and play and play and play. 00:22:38.080 --> 00:22:41.410 align:middle line:84% And you start to realize that some of the things in this game 00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:43.560 align:middle line:90% are just red herrings. 00:22:43.560 --> 00:22:49.810 align:middle line:84% They're just included to dilute the power of other things, 00:22:49.810 --> 00:22:53.230 align:middle line:84% or they're included to counterbalance 00:22:53.230 --> 00:22:54.790 align:middle line:90% very specific scenarios. 00:22:54.790 --> 00:22:57.250 align:middle line:84% And things that seem like total waste 00:22:57.250 --> 00:23:00.750 align:middle line:84% are actually really important later on in the game 00:23:00.750 --> 00:23:02.807 align:middle line:84% and you just can't get that up front. 00:23:02.807 --> 00:23:04.390 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: So just real quick. 00:23:04.390 --> 00:23:06.100 align:middle line:84% Going back to Sulkeen really quick 00:23:06.100 --> 00:23:08.980 align:middle line:84% is that there is a certain difficulty 00:23:08.980 --> 00:23:10.229 align:middle line:90% with the length of games. 00:23:10.229 --> 00:23:12.520 align:middle line:84% So if you have a game and you're trying to play test it 00:23:12.520 --> 00:23:16.240 align:middle line:84% and you hit 30 minutes and it's not fun, 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:18.430 align:middle line:84% and then you tell your players, don't worry. 00:23:18.430 --> 00:23:21.910 align:middle line:84% There's two and a half hours more to it and we'll get it 00:23:21.910 --> 00:23:26.500 align:middle line:84% figured out, you've got a much harder row to tow on that, 00:23:26.500 --> 00:23:29.110 align:middle line:84% which actually, you'll find I think, 00:23:29.110 --> 00:23:31.420 align:middle line:84% in part you'll see a lot more games that are designed 00:23:31.420 --> 00:23:34.810 align:middle line:84% for the 45-minute mark because that's usually-- 00:23:34.810 --> 00:23:37.210 align:middle line:84% I mean, that's the easiest way to iterate a game. 00:23:37.210 --> 00:23:38.050 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: It's also about the time. 00:23:38.050 --> 00:23:39.841 align:middle line:84% I mean, think about the amount of free time 00:23:39.841 --> 00:23:41.050 align:middle line:90% you really have in your life. 00:23:41.050 --> 00:23:43.174 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Well, they certainly have a lot. 00:23:43.174 --> 00:23:44.085 align:middle line:90% They're students. 00:23:44.085 --> 00:23:45.876 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: But even that, I mean, there's 00:23:45.876 --> 00:23:48.216 align:middle line:84% kegs to stand on and all that stuff. 00:23:48.216 --> 00:23:50.460 align:middle line:84% I don't know what they do at MIT. 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:52.950 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: It's some sort of giant-like robot. 00:23:52.950 --> 00:23:53.700 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:55.270 align:middle line:90% You build a robot. 00:23:55.270 --> 00:23:56.380 align:middle line:90% I'm sorry. 00:23:56.380 --> 00:24:00.880 align:middle line:84% I have a dime in my time because I'm a professional. 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:02.834 align:middle line:90% It's just driving me mad. 00:24:02.834 --> 00:24:05.250 align:middle line:84% Otherwise, another important thing about being a designer, 00:24:05.250 --> 00:24:06.750 align:middle line:90% develop a mental disorder. 00:24:06.750 --> 00:24:09.370 align:middle line:84% That will really, really help you get the tiny problems 00:24:09.370 --> 00:24:11.036 align:middle line:90% like dimes in your tie out. 00:24:11.036 --> 00:24:14.830 align:middle line:90% 00:24:14.830 --> 00:24:16.330 align:middle line:90% So yeah. 00:24:16.330 --> 00:24:20.020 align:middle line:84% Half hour, 45-minute games are becoming the thing. 00:24:20.020 --> 00:24:23.320 align:middle line:84% As board games become more and more popular in America, 00:24:23.320 --> 00:24:24.640 align:middle line:90% because they were always-- 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:27.550 align:middle line:84% well, for the past 25, 30 years they 00:24:27.550 --> 00:24:30.589 align:middle line:90% were very popular in Europe. 00:24:30.589 --> 00:24:32.380 align:middle line:84% And when we were talking about board games, 00:24:32.380 --> 00:24:36.010 align:middle line:84% I think we're not talking about traditional games 00:24:36.010 --> 00:24:42.490 align:middle line:84% like Monopoly, Scrabble, that kind of early American family 00:24:42.490 --> 00:24:43.560 align:middle line:90% board game, I think. 00:24:43.560 --> 00:24:45.809 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Because they're still a great game. 00:24:45.809 --> 00:24:46.530 align:middle line:90% There's so much. 00:24:46.530 --> 00:24:47.620 align:middle line:84% When we talk about board games, we 00:24:47.620 --> 00:24:50.410 align:middle line:84% talk about they're roughly this big because the designer's name 00:24:50.410 --> 00:24:54.840 align:middle line:84% on the box, they take between 45 to 3 hours. 00:24:54.840 --> 00:24:58.340 align:middle line:84% Produce some things like War Hammer and different war games. 00:24:58.340 --> 00:25:00.620 align:middle line:84% Because there's whole other cultures out there, 00:25:00.620 --> 00:25:02.120 align:middle line:90% which is really cool. 00:25:02.120 --> 00:25:04.620 align:middle line:84% But when we say board games, we're talking about that again. 00:25:04.620 --> 00:25:07.390 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: And that's different from say, 00:25:07.390 --> 00:25:09.800 align:middle line:84% I like to use the term tabletop games, 00:25:09.800 --> 00:25:12.430 align:middle line:90% but I'll expand that really far. 00:25:12.430 --> 00:25:15.015 align:middle line:84% I did a tabletop producing for the Boston Festival Indie 00:25:15.015 --> 00:25:16.640 align:middle line:84% Games, which is coming up in September. 00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:18.514 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: We should talk about that. 00:25:18.514 --> 00:25:21.340 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: The game is like a hockey rink filled up 00:25:21.340 --> 00:25:23.085 align:middle line:90% with indie games. 00:25:23.085 --> 00:25:24.460 align:middle line:84% I don't know much more than that. 00:25:24.460 --> 00:25:26.560 align:middle line:84% We just opened the submissions yesterday. 00:25:26.560 --> 00:25:27.750 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 00:25:27.750 --> 00:25:31.090 align:middle line:90% 00:25:31.090 --> 00:25:33.790 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Well, one of the differences from last year 00:25:33.790 --> 00:25:37.150 align:middle line:84% that when I came onboard because it was my first year doing it, 00:25:37.150 --> 00:25:39.700 align:middle line:84% I really wanted the stress was that a tabletop 00:25:39.700 --> 00:25:45.880 align:middle line:84% game or an analog game is a different term than a board 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:46.450 align:middle line:90% game. 00:25:46.450 --> 00:25:49.180 align:middle line:84% A board game is literally something with a board. 00:25:49.180 --> 00:25:52.240 align:middle line:84% But a tabletop game, I'll stretch that and say card games 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:53.080 align:middle line:90% are tabletop games. 00:25:53.080 --> 00:25:54.910 align:middle line:84% Roll-playing games are tabletop games. 00:25:54.910 --> 00:25:59.130 align:middle line:84% You can be playing the clunkiest most grognard DMD-- 00:25:59.130 --> 00:26:05.657 align:middle line:84% "grognard" is a French term for curmudgeonly old guys. 00:26:05.657 --> 00:26:06.490 align:middle line:90% That's basically it. 00:26:06.490 --> 00:26:08.966 align:middle line:84% I think it actually is for generals or something. 00:26:08.966 --> 00:26:12.170 align:middle line:90% They're the worst. 00:26:12.170 --> 00:26:16.434 align:middle line:84% So Apples to Apples is a tabletop game. 00:26:16.434 --> 00:26:18.100 align:middle line:84% What's the game where you're pulling out 00:26:18.100 --> 00:26:19.641 align:middle line:84% the sticks and the marbles fall down? 00:26:19.641 --> 00:26:20.270 align:middle line:90% Ker-Plunk. 00:26:20.270 --> 00:26:21.580 align:middle line:90% God, I love that game. 00:26:21.580 --> 00:26:22.900 align:middle line:90% Ker-Plunk is a tabletop game. 00:26:22.900 --> 00:26:25.880 align:middle line:90% Dominoes is a tabletop game. 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:28.650 align:middle line:84% Bocce Ball is not a tabletop game, but it's great. 00:26:28.650 --> 00:26:32.700 align:middle line:84% But also if roll-playing games or tabletop games, 00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:34.510 align:middle line:84% does that mean a LARP is a tabletop game? 00:26:34.510 --> 00:26:38.080 align:middle line:84% Because a LARP is just the roll-playing game without dice. 00:26:38.080 --> 00:26:40.280 align:middle line:84% And if LARPs are tabletop games, then how about-- 00:26:40.280 --> 00:26:40.965 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: I think they're 00:26:40.965 --> 00:26:42.131 align:middle line:90% technically dexterity games. 00:26:42.131 --> 00:26:44.860 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Well, if you're doing proper LARPs. 00:26:44.860 --> 00:26:47.290 align:middle line:84% But if you're doing something like a Nordic LARP, 00:26:47.290 --> 00:26:51.730 align:middle line:84% which is the brand of live-action roll playing from 00:26:51.730 --> 00:26:53.365 align:middle line:90% Norway, Sweden, and Finland-- 00:26:53.365 --> 00:26:55.770 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: God, those folks leave me nuts. 00:26:55.770 --> 00:26:58.270 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: I was invited to a convention with those people 00:26:58.270 --> 00:27:00.557 align:middle line:84% last week, and they are hilarious. 00:27:00.557 --> 00:27:02.140 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: The only one that I 00:27:02.140 --> 00:27:05.410 align:middle line:84% know that they do there's a Battlestar Galactica, where 00:27:05.410 --> 00:27:07.760 align:middle line:84% they actually they rent out an old-- 00:27:07.760 --> 00:27:08.892 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Battleship. 00:27:08.892 --> 00:27:10.225 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: --battleship. 00:27:10.225 --> 00:27:11.425 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: For a weekend. 00:27:11.425 --> 00:27:12.925 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: [INAUDIBLE] on it 00:27:12.925 --> 00:27:15.760 align:middle line:84% for a weekend, and yeah, they go and they play this game 00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:18.980 align:middle line:84% on right on a frigid waters and military bunkers 00:27:18.980 --> 00:27:21.700 align:middle line:84% playing Battlestar Galactica-themed live action 00:27:21.700 --> 00:27:22.450 align:middle line:90% role playing game. 00:27:22.450 --> 00:27:24.199 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: So it is a roll-playing game, 00:27:24.199 --> 00:27:26.860 align:middle line:84% but it's also like an interactive theater 00:27:26.860 --> 00:27:28.390 align:middle line:90% performance. 00:27:28.390 --> 00:27:32.530 align:middle line:90% That game was crazy, apparently. 00:27:32.530 --> 00:27:34.780 align:middle line:84% So is everybody familiar with Battlestar Galactica? 00:27:34.780 --> 00:27:35.280 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:27:35.280 --> 00:27:37.960 align:middle line:84% So there's robots, and they look like people. 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.120 align:middle line:84% So it was a Battlestar Galactica, 00:27:40.120 --> 00:27:44.410 align:middle line:84% and then they had people who were cylons who were agents. 00:27:44.410 --> 00:27:47.500 align:middle line:84% And then anyone who was wearing red was a hallucination. 00:27:47.500 --> 00:27:50.452 align:middle line:84% It could only be seen by specific characters. 00:27:50.452 --> 00:27:52.206 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: It gets better. 00:27:52.206 --> 00:27:54.080 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: From the second day of the LARP, 00:27:54.080 --> 00:27:55.538 align:middle line:84% and this is like a three-day thing. 00:27:55.538 --> 00:27:57.160 align:middle line:84% You frigging sleep on this battleship 00:27:57.160 --> 00:27:59.200 align:middle line:84% and everybody is in character the whole time. 00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:02.020 align:middle line:84% On the second day of the LARP, one of the guys 00:28:02.020 --> 00:28:05.830 align:middle line:84% who has red who was part of the plot as a hallucination, 00:28:05.830 --> 00:28:10.140 align:middle line:84% they brought his twin brother in who nobody else knew 00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:12.040 align:middle line:90% that he had a twin brother. 00:28:12.040 --> 00:28:14.332 align:middle line:84% So all of a sudden there's two identical hallucinations 00:28:14.332 --> 00:28:15.998 align:middle line:84% wandering around the ship, and everybody 00:28:15.998 --> 00:28:17.360 align:middle line:90% is flipping their fucking wig. 00:28:17.360 --> 00:28:19.974 align:middle line:90% 00:28:19.974 --> 00:28:22.390 align:middle line:84% So I guess what I'm saying is, if we can rent a battleship 00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:23.432 align:middle line:90% for [INAUDIBLE]. 00:28:23.432 --> 00:28:26.470 align:middle line:90% 00:28:26.470 --> 00:28:28.990 align:middle line:84% And then like games like Johann Sebastian 00:28:28.990 --> 00:28:32.560 align:middle line:84% Joust, which is a digital game, but is it really 00:28:32.560 --> 00:28:33.340 align:middle line:90% a digital game? 00:28:33.340 --> 00:28:34.810 align:middle line:90% It's really kind of like tag. 00:28:34.810 --> 00:28:35.726 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: No. 00:28:35.726 --> 00:28:38.170 align:middle line:90% I wouldn't say-- what is it? 00:28:38.170 --> 00:28:38.810 align:middle line:90% Spaceteam. 00:28:38.810 --> 00:28:41.580 align:middle line:84% I don't know if you guys know Spaceteam at all. iOS game. 00:28:41.580 --> 00:28:44.110 align:middle line:84% You play it by basically you have a user interface. 00:28:44.110 --> 00:28:46.770 align:middle line:84% And you press buttons before a timer runs out. 00:28:46.770 --> 00:28:48.610 align:middle line:84% Unfortunately, what button you have to press 00:28:48.610 --> 00:28:51.290 align:middle line:84% is not on your screen, but on someone else's screen. 00:28:51.290 --> 00:28:53.320 align:middle line:84% So they'll tell you to flash the paper screw, 00:28:53.320 --> 00:28:54.945 align:middle line:84% and you look on your thing and do 00:28:54.945 --> 00:28:56.410 align:middle line:90% I have the paper screw flash? 00:28:56.410 --> 00:28:59.230 align:middle line:84% But at the same that is that a video game because there's not 00:28:59.230 --> 00:29:01.930 align:middle line:84% really much to it in terms of the digital aspect 00:29:01.930 --> 00:29:03.928 align:middle line:84% so much as that it's a timer and you 00:29:03.928 --> 00:29:04.660 align:middle line:84% have to press buttons at the right time. 00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:06.368 align:middle line:84% You could make an analog version of that. 00:29:06.368 --> 00:29:08.762 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: You can make an analog version of that. 00:29:08.762 --> 00:29:12.150 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So that brings us into the funding aspects of things. 00:29:12.150 --> 00:29:14.650 align:middle line:84% All these different categories, all these different markets, 00:29:14.650 --> 00:29:16.346 align:middle line:90% you can think of. 00:29:16.346 --> 00:29:17.340 align:middle line:90% How are you exploring? 00:29:17.340 --> 00:29:18.990 align:middle line:84% How are you marketing your games? 00:29:18.990 --> 00:29:21.580 align:middle line:84% What are you marketing your games as? 00:29:21.580 --> 00:29:22.580 align:middle line:90% What's your [INAUDIBLE]? 00:29:22.580 --> 00:29:24.080 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Well, certainly-- 00:29:24.080 --> 00:29:25.370 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: I have no idea. 00:29:25.370 --> 00:29:27.620 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Certainly, when we say board games, 00:29:27.620 --> 00:29:31.440 align:middle line:84% we mean like against the box about yeah big, which is, 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.840 align:middle line:84% in this instance, I call it the hobby industry, 00:29:34.840 --> 00:29:38.670 align:middle line:84% though there's a lot of very nebulous terms of what 00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:39.630 align:middle line:90% that falls under. 00:29:39.630 --> 00:29:44.020 align:middle line:84% But the hobby industry is separate from the toy industry, 00:29:44.020 --> 00:29:49.220 align:middle line:84% which I was actually at Toy Fair in New York. 00:29:49.220 --> 00:29:53.792 align:middle line:84% Mostly, I actually just wrote an article on my blog 00:29:53.792 --> 00:29:56.250 align:middle line:84% about there is a difference between a game inventor, a game 00:29:56.250 --> 00:29:57.750 align:middle line:84% designer, and a game writer, and how 00:29:57.750 --> 00:30:02.220 align:middle line:84% it separates out the different industries that are out there. 00:30:02.220 --> 00:30:05.814 align:middle line:84% But for myself personally, our kind 00:30:05.814 --> 00:30:07.230 align:middle line:84% of industry and where we're hoping 00:30:07.230 --> 00:30:09.330 align:middle line:84% that we're seeing the most growth 00:30:09.330 --> 00:30:11.860 align:middle line:84% is the feeling that people that are mostly 00:30:11.860 --> 00:30:13.860 align:middle line:84% on social media, a lot of people that are really 00:30:13.860 --> 00:30:17.790 align:middle line:84% into Kickstarter, and very into thematic games 00:30:17.790 --> 00:30:22.299 align:middle line:84% that are both themselves semantically interesting 00:30:22.299 --> 00:30:24.090 align:middle line:84% as well as the systems that are within them 00:30:24.090 --> 00:30:29.250 align:middle line:84% are fair and balanced and are worthwhile to do. 00:30:29.250 --> 00:30:32.100 align:middle line:84% So my strategy is actually to initiate. 00:30:32.100 --> 00:30:34.716 align:middle line:84% My Kickstarter is in about six months. 00:30:34.716 --> 00:30:36.090 align:middle line:84% And in that time, I'm going to be 00:30:36.090 --> 00:30:40.860 align:middle line:84% creating a trans-media storytelling ad campaign that 00:30:40.860 --> 00:30:44.760 align:middle line:84% will take the theme of the game, turn it into sort of a story, 00:30:44.760 --> 00:30:47.700 align:middle line:84% and then promote that as well as talking 00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:51.010 align:middle line:84% about just the general design as a result hoping 00:30:51.010 --> 00:30:56.430 align:middle line:84% to engage social media networks that will then generate 00:30:56.430 --> 00:30:59.220 align:middle line:84% the needed buzz for when the Kickstarter campaign actually 00:30:59.220 --> 00:31:00.450 align:middle line:90% launches. 00:31:00.450 --> 00:31:02.160 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: A lot of fundraising 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:06.180 align:middle line:84% has less to do with what you're making and more 00:31:06.180 --> 00:31:09.090 align:middle line:84% to do with what you can conceivably 00:31:09.090 --> 00:31:10.550 align:middle line:90% accomplish in marketing. 00:31:10.550 --> 00:31:12.750 align:middle line:84% So if you have no budget, you have 00:31:12.750 --> 00:31:14.850 align:middle line:84% to rely on certain marketing techniques as opposed 00:31:14.850 --> 00:31:16.014 align:middle line:90% to others. 00:31:16.014 --> 00:31:17.430 align:middle line:84% A lot of people who have no budget 00:31:17.430 --> 00:31:19.490 align:middle line:84% like to think that commercials don't work. 00:31:19.490 --> 00:31:20.274 align:middle line:90% That's stupid. 00:31:20.274 --> 00:31:21.690 align:middle line:84% Why would anybody do that as a way 00:31:21.690 --> 00:31:23.564 align:middle line:84% of kind of convincing themselves that they've 00:31:23.564 --> 00:31:24.530 align:middle line:90% made a noble choice? 00:31:24.530 --> 00:31:25.080 align:middle line:90% No. 00:31:25.080 --> 00:31:26.413 align:middle line:90% They just didn't have the money. 00:31:26.413 --> 00:31:27.930 align:middle line:84% Sometimes commercials really work. 00:31:27.930 --> 00:31:32.550 align:middle line:84% For instance, as I was touring on my way down here, 00:31:32.550 --> 00:31:36.440 align:middle line:84% I relaunched a Google AdWords campaign for our game 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:40.640 align:middle line:84% Slash because now I can fulfill orders for it. 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:44.160 align:middle line:84% Using multiple marketing vectors in order 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.740 align:middle line:84% to get people interested in your project is really, really 00:31:46.740 --> 00:31:52.170 align:middle line:84% important, especially because the means-- 00:31:52.170 --> 00:31:55.410 align:middle line:90% it's a very competitive space. 00:31:55.410 --> 00:32:01.230 align:middle line:84% It is an industry that is like a hobby and toy industry was 00:32:01.230 --> 00:32:04.965 align:middle line:84% like $6.1 billion last year, which is not insignificant, 00:32:04.965 --> 00:32:06.780 align:middle line:90% but it isn't video games. 00:32:06.780 --> 00:32:09.600 align:middle line:84% But unlike video games, it is an industry 00:32:09.600 --> 00:32:15.060 align:middle line:84% that has grown 11% on average, for the year over year 00:32:15.060 --> 00:32:17.121 align:middle line:90% for the past five years. 00:32:17.121 --> 00:32:18.870 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Before that it was even 00:32:18.870 --> 00:32:20.510 align:middle line:90% growing more so than that. 00:32:20.510 --> 00:32:21.180 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: No. 00:32:21.180 --> 00:32:24.810 align:middle line:84% It's actually gone up, but it's predicted in 2018, 00:32:24.810 --> 00:32:28.340 align:middle line:84% I just got the University of Texas research. 00:32:28.340 --> 00:32:30.690 align:middle line:90% I take it real serious. 00:32:30.690 --> 00:32:32.430 align:middle line:84% So it's a very fast growing industry 00:32:32.430 --> 00:32:34.486 align:middle line:84% because there's space in America for it. 00:32:34.486 --> 00:32:36.860 align:middle line:84% It's not as fast growing in Europe because that's already 00:32:36.860 --> 00:32:39.150 align:middle line:90% a supersaturated market. 00:32:39.150 --> 00:32:44.220 align:middle line:84% But stuff like Kickstarter, Patreon, and Indiegogo, 00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:49.590 align:middle line:84% even just going to shows and selling your wares, 00:32:49.590 --> 00:32:53.760 align:middle line:84% which is actually really the best way to do it. 00:32:53.760 --> 00:32:56.070 align:middle line:84% The way that you get people to come to them 00:32:56.070 --> 00:33:01.440 align:middle line:84% is to find the audiences that are already keyed into that. 00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:04.290 align:middle line:84% They like the idea of I'm helping a person make a thing. 00:33:04.290 --> 00:33:07.560 align:middle line:84% I'm not investing, but I'm kind of 00:33:07.560 --> 00:33:09.240 align:middle line:90% like pre-ordering this thing. 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:11.760 align:middle line:84% So you've got to identify what those markets are 00:33:11.760 --> 00:33:13.940 align:middle line:84% and find the best ways to get them and convince 00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:16.770 align:middle line:84% them to throw money down a hole called Kickstarter. 00:33:16.770 --> 00:33:18.870 align:middle line:84% Because not everything on Kickstarter gets 00:33:18.870 --> 00:33:21.900 align:middle line:84% funded, and not everything that gets funded on Kickstarter 00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:22.600 align:middle line:90% gets done. 00:33:22.600 --> 00:33:23.135 align:middle line:90% And then-- 00:33:23.135 --> 00:33:23.970 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: There's some horror stories. 00:33:23.970 --> 00:33:25.345 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: --many of the things 00:33:25.345 --> 00:33:28.066 align:middle line:84% that get funded and get done are crap. 00:33:28.066 --> 00:33:32.337 align:middle line:90% 00:33:32.337 --> 00:33:34.170 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: [INAUDIBLE] a little bit. 00:33:34.170 --> 00:33:36.330 align:middle line:84% Like you said, it's a growing industry. 00:33:36.330 --> 00:33:40.620 align:middle line:84% So the hobby end of the growing industry as 00:33:40.620 --> 00:33:42.360 align:middle line:90% opposed to the toy industry. 00:33:42.360 --> 00:33:44.880 align:middle line:84% So if you're trying to get your games to Hasbro 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:48.030 align:middle line:84% or I guess Parker Brothers, but anything 00:33:48.030 --> 00:33:50.220 align:middle line:84% else that ultimately leads back to Hasbro. 00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:52.482 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah, because Hasbro, [INAUDIBLE]. 00:33:52.482 --> 00:33:53.940 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: But anything you 00:33:53.940 --> 00:33:56.540 align:middle line:84% want to get you game into Toys R Us, at that point, 00:33:56.540 --> 00:33:59.250 align:middle line:90% that industry is pretty static. 00:33:59.250 --> 00:34:04.170 align:middle line:84% So as a result, it's very hard to get known or mentioned 00:34:04.170 --> 00:34:05.400 align:middle line:90% at all in that. 00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:08.259 align:middle line:84% But because the hobby games industry is growing, 00:34:08.259 --> 00:34:09.800 align:middle line:84% there's more and more people that are 00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:11.940 align:middle line:90% looking for the ground floor. 00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:14.590 align:middle line:84% And as a result, if you can get your foot in, make 00:34:14.590 --> 00:34:18.026 align:middle line:84% a little brand for yourself, get your name out there, then when 00:34:18.026 --> 00:34:19.650 align:middle line:84% you actually do you start making games, 00:34:19.650 --> 00:34:21.630 align:middle line:84% people will recognize you, and you'll 00:34:21.630 --> 00:34:24.690 align:middle line:84% be able to kind of market yourself as a brand. 00:34:24.690 --> 00:34:28.350 align:middle line:84% Again, that's probably one of the most important things. 00:34:28.350 --> 00:34:29.850 align:middle line:84% And the only reason this is possible 00:34:29.850 --> 00:34:33.726 align:middle line:84% is because game designers start putting their names on the box. 00:34:33.726 --> 00:34:36.090 align:middle line:84% When we talk about designers, let's 00:34:36.090 --> 00:34:40.530 align:middle line:84% talk about Reiner Knizia, one of the most prolific game 00:34:40.530 --> 00:34:41.170 align:middle line:90% designers. 00:34:41.170 --> 00:34:43.469 align:middle line:84% And all of his brands are great, but his name 00:34:43.469 --> 00:34:45.540 align:middle line:84% is known in the hobby game industry 00:34:45.540 --> 00:34:50.042 align:middle line:84% because the dude designed like 300 games and actually has them 00:34:50.042 --> 00:34:52.080 align:middle line:90% all published. 00:34:52.080 --> 00:34:55.770 align:middle line:84% And as a result, when you see Reiner Knizia's name on a box, 00:34:55.770 --> 00:34:58.010 align:middle line:84% you're going to start to recognize that a little bit. 00:34:58.010 --> 00:34:59.260 align:middle line:90% When you're able to generate-- 00:34:59.260 --> 00:35:00.120 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: I mean, they're not that all good. 00:35:00.120 --> 00:35:02.080 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: They're not all good. 00:35:02.080 --> 00:35:03.554 align:middle line:90% But Reiner Knizia. 00:35:03.554 --> 00:35:04.720 align:middle line:90% I've heard that name before. 00:35:04.720 --> 00:35:05.080 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: I agree. 00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:06.810 align:middle line:84% I mean, he created a brand for himself 00:35:06.810 --> 00:35:13.927 align:middle line:84% just like video game companies d, or labels in music. 00:35:13.927 --> 00:35:16.260 align:middle line:84% The music industry, you guys weren't around in the '90s, 00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:19.034 align:middle line:90% so you don't know it exists. 00:35:19.034 --> 00:35:21.520 align:middle line:90% For you, still exists. 00:35:21.520 --> 00:35:22.140 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:35:22.140 --> 00:35:25.110 align:middle line:84% So I think the interesting thing about the market 00:35:25.110 --> 00:35:30.510 align:middle line:84% and being able to have that personal brand as a designer is 00:35:30.510 --> 00:35:33.780 align:middle line:84% really important because the people who are playing board 00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:37.500 align:middle line:84% games right now and the growing market are, 00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:39.800 align:middle line:84% I guess, they're iconoclastic people. 00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:43.320 align:middle line:84% They're hey, we're all individual types, 00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:46.140 align:middle line:84% but they're all we're really big on geek culture. 00:35:46.140 --> 00:35:50.970 align:middle line:84% And then geek culture is bringing 75,000 people here 00:35:50.970 --> 00:35:53.496 align:middle line:84% this weekend, so maybe it's not as marginal 00:35:53.496 --> 00:35:54.870 align:middle line:84% as we'd like to think that it is. 00:35:54.870 --> 00:35:59.610 align:middle line:84% But it is a market that values individuality 00:35:59.610 --> 00:36:02.190 align:middle line:90% and individual productivity. 00:36:02.190 --> 00:36:06.450 align:middle line:84% So finding the ways to market to those people directly 00:36:06.450 --> 00:36:09.540 align:middle line:84% can often be really rewarding, especially if you're putting 00:36:09.540 --> 00:36:11.809 align:middle line:90% your face on what you're doing. 00:36:11.809 --> 00:36:13.350 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Another example is 00:36:13.350 --> 00:36:16.294 align:middle line:90% Daniel Solis, who's down in-- 00:36:16.294 --> 00:36:17.460 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: North Carolina. 00:36:17.460 --> 00:36:19.800 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: North Carolina. 00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.630 align:middle line:84% For the longest time, I mean, he was a graphic designer, 00:36:22.630 --> 00:36:25.230 align:middle line:84% but he started a board game blog. 00:36:25.230 --> 00:36:27.930 align:middle line:90% 00:36:27.930 --> 00:36:30.120 align:middle line:84% He just talked about his expertise 00:36:30.120 --> 00:36:31.530 align:middle line:90% in designing a lot of games. 00:36:31.530 --> 00:36:34.830 align:middle line:84% He's a very prolific guy, and he does a lot of stuff 00:36:34.830 --> 00:36:39.300 align:middle line:84% that's just completely open source, print-and-play games. 00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:43.710 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Actually, he works out of his house like I do, 00:36:43.710 --> 00:36:46.127 align:middle line:84% and we actually do a conference call every morning 00:36:46.127 --> 00:36:47.502 align:middle line:84% with a number of other designers. 00:36:47.502 --> 00:36:49.320 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: I was wondering how you knew him. 00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:50.955 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: He's just released-- you 00:36:50.955 --> 00:36:51.954 align:middle line:90% guys ever watch Firefly? 00:36:51.954 --> 00:36:53.070 align:middle line:90% That show? 00:36:53.070 --> 00:36:55.090 align:middle line:90% So he just did the layout for-- 00:36:55.090 --> 00:36:59.497 align:middle line:84% like his normal job is doing graphic design layout. 00:36:59.497 --> 00:37:01.330 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Where's your other stuff? 00:37:01.330 --> 00:37:04.200 align:middle line:90% 00:37:04.200 --> 00:37:06.580 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: So he just laid out the Firefly BG, which 00:37:06.580 --> 00:37:10.800 align:middle line:84% is available for download now as PDF 00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:13.080 align:middle line:84% and then they're provisioning it later. 00:37:13.080 --> 00:37:15.600 align:middle line:84% So he does that, and then he has this whole 00:37:15.600 --> 00:37:17.620 align:middle line:84% I'm going to make games a lot and put them up 00:37:17.620 --> 00:37:21.420 align:middle line:84% on DriveThruCards, which is an online service that allows you 00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:24.290 align:middle line:84% to do print on demand, which is another one of the things that 00:37:24.290 --> 00:37:29.980 align:middle line:84% in the past year has really shaken up the board game 00:37:29.980 --> 00:37:32.060 align:middle line:90% industry. 00:37:32.060 --> 00:37:35.217 align:middle line:84% You used to not be able to get anything done unless you're are 00:37:35.217 --> 00:37:37.915 align:middle line:84% ready to do 3,000 copies of it, but now I can make a game, 00:37:37.915 --> 00:37:39.290 align:middle line:84% put it up through DriveThruCards, 00:37:39.290 --> 00:37:41.880 align:middle line:84% and you can go send $10 and download it. 00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:46.030 align:middle line:84% Or they would actually send you individual print in seconds. 00:37:46.030 --> 00:37:49.400 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: But again, some of [INAUDIBLE]. 00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:51.480 align:middle line:84% So Daniel Solis has been doing all this stuff, 00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:55.815 align:middle line:84% just presenting himself as an expert creating 00:37:55.815 --> 00:37:57.740 align:middle line:90% a brand of himself. 00:37:57.740 --> 00:38:02.730 align:middle line:84% Actually, I brought him up to Hacks last year as an expert. 00:38:02.730 --> 00:38:07.290 align:middle line:84% He, about six months ago, ran a Kickstarter 00:38:07.290 --> 00:38:09.450 align:middle line:90% for Bell of the Ball. 00:38:09.450 --> 00:38:12.400 align:middle line:84% And he leveraged some of his connections. 00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:14.460 align:middle line:84% And the game itself is very good, 00:38:14.460 --> 00:38:17.020 align:middle line:84% but the Kickstarter was wildly successful. 00:38:17.020 --> 00:38:20.340 align:middle line:84% I think he got something like three times what 00:38:20.340 --> 00:38:24.490 align:middle line:84% he asked for just in terms of kick starting the game. 00:38:24.490 --> 00:38:28.170 align:middle line:84% And as a result, I believe, a lot of his connections 00:38:28.170 --> 00:38:30.560 align:middle line:84% and leveraging his brand as an expert. 00:38:30.560 --> 00:38:34.990 align:middle line:84% I think at some point, he's got 5,000 Twitter followers 00:38:34.990 --> 00:38:38.500 align:middle line:90% and decent blog presence. 00:38:38.500 --> 00:38:41.130 align:middle line:84% And as a result of having that before he 00:38:41.130 --> 00:38:46.390 align:middle line:84% launches a Kickstarter of starts to generate pre-sales 00:38:46.390 --> 00:38:50.230 align:middle line:84% for a board game, that he's going to do much better. 00:38:50.230 --> 00:38:52.300 align:middle line:84% And the effort that he puts into it 00:38:52.300 --> 00:38:55.260 align:middle line:84% is really just talking about board games, 00:38:55.260 --> 00:38:58.000 align:middle line:84% putting information for free online 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:00.590 align:middle line:84% and establishing himself as someone who's an expert. 00:39:00.590 --> 00:39:03.470 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So all of these crowd funding models, 00:39:03.470 --> 00:39:06.480 align:middle line:84% there is a little bit of precedence in a publisher 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.040 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] groups like GMP. 00:39:09.040 --> 00:39:12.474 align:middle line:84% But for the most part, they're fairly recent developments. 00:39:12.474 --> 00:39:15.690 align:middle line:84% because we'll be willing to give money online. 00:39:15.690 --> 00:39:18.255 align:middle line:84% I'm assuming that your interactions [INAUDIBLE]. 00:39:18.255 --> 00:39:20.920 align:middle line:90% 00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:28.166 align:middle line:84% But what is this role of stores, especially hobby stores? 00:39:28.166 --> 00:39:32.200 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: I do you also work at a games store Eureka! 00:39:32.200 --> 00:39:35.380 align:middle line:90% Puzzles down Brookline. 00:39:35.380 --> 00:39:39.230 align:middle line:84% And that's an interesting function as well. 00:39:39.230 --> 00:39:41.240 align:middle line:84% I do a little a little bit of research 00:39:41.240 --> 00:39:44.200 align:middle line:84% in general on retail stores, not just board game stores, 00:39:44.200 --> 00:39:46.830 align:middle line:90% but anywhere that sells things. 00:39:46.830 --> 00:39:50.330 align:middle line:84% It's taking a nosedive as an industry, which 00:39:50.330 --> 00:39:55.420 align:middle line:84% is hard to imagine just stores selling things as an industry. 00:39:55.420 --> 00:39:58.210 align:middle line:84% But idea is with the internet and [INAUDIBLE] 00:39:58.210 --> 00:40:00.980 align:middle line:84% like with Amazon Prime, oftentimes, 00:40:00.980 --> 00:40:02.890 align:middle line:84% you can find the same product online. 00:40:02.890 --> 00:40:07.420 align:middle line:84% And even with shipping, they can beat 00:40:07.420 --> 00:40:12.220 align:middle line:84% the price of any retail store, which is board games, 00:40:12.220 --> 00:40:14.870 align:middle line:84% war game retail outlets are pretty hard. 00:40:14.870 --> 00:40:17.411 align:middle line:84% Because you can go and hell, I work at Eureka! 00:40:17.411 --> 00:40:17.910 align:middle line:90% Puzzles. 00:40:17.910 --> 00:40:20.800 align:middle line:84% I get in and play discount, and it's still cheaper for me 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:26.086 align:middle line:84% to go on Funagain Games and buy a game on that end. 00:40:26.086 --> 00:40:27.460 align:middle line:84% With shipping, it's still cheaper 00:40:27.460 --> 00:40:29.204 align:middle line:90% than what I pay at Eureka! 00:40:29.204 --> 00:40:31.840 align:middle line:90% Puzzles for a board game. 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:33.880 align:middle line:84% As a result, a lot of retail outlets 00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:37.570 align:middle line:84% are starting to realize that if they're going to survive, 00:40:37.570 --> 00:40:42.370 align:middle line:84% they can't do it by trying to beat prices with online stores. 00:40:42.370 --> 00:40:43.780 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: I turned it down. 00:40:43.780 --> 00:40:45.560 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: As a result, they're 00:40:45.560 --> 00:40:48.280 align:middle line:84% realizing that they're strength is that they 00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:51.322 align:middle line:90% have a physical presence. 00:40:51.322 --> 00:40:53.530 align:middle line:84% So their idea is that if they're going to charge more 00:40:53.530 --> 00:40:55.600 align:middle line:84% for board games that you can get online, 00:40:55.600 --> 00:40:58.187 align:middle line:90% they need to add value to that. 00:40:58.187 --> 00:40:59.770 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: They'll probably do stuff 00:40:59.770 --> 00:41:03.580 align:middle line:84% like the Knight Moves Cafe, where they're taking that. 00:41:03.580 --> 00:41:06.340 align:middle line:84% So the interesting thing about this-- 00:41:06.340 --> 00:41:09.250 align:middle line:84% well, one of the interesting things about this 00:41:09.250 --> 00:41:11.860 align:middle line:90% is comic books, right? 00:41:11.860 --> 00:41:14.629 align:middle line:84% So comic books, in the '90s were huge, 00:41:14.629 --> 00:41:16.170 align:middle line:84% and then they went through this bust, 00:41:16.170 --> 00:41:19.770 align:middle line:84% and the people who owned comic book stores started 00:41:19.770 --> 00:41:22.120 align:middle line:84% to see the margins on their products 00:41:22.120 --> 00:41:24.400 align:middle line:84% get shorter and shorter and shorter and less and less 00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:25.650 align:middle line:90% and less people buying comics. 00:41:25.650 --> 00:41:28.270 align:middle line:90% So it's a really dire situation. 00:41:28.270 --> 00:41:30.760 align:middle line:84% And in the past 10 years, it's become 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:34.870 align:middle line:84% really easy to pirate comics online, but more so than that, 00:41:34.870 --> 00:41:38.650 align:middle line:84% there are apps for your phone or your iPad like comiXology 00:41:38.650 --> 00:41:41.290 align:middle line:84% or the Marvel app that actually do a really, really good job 00:41:41.290 --> 00:41:44.020 align:middle line:90% of presenting comics to you. 00:41:44.020 --> 00:41:45.760 align:middle line:84% My wife wouldn't read comics at all 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:47.687 align:middle line:84% before just because sometimes people 00:41:47.687 --> 00:41:49.270 align:middle line:84% who don't really know how to do layout 00:41:49.270 --> 00:41:50.561 align:middle line:90% end up doing layout for comics. 00:41:50.561 --> 00:41:53.860 align:middle line:84% And so literally, it can be confusing to read 00:41:53.860 --> 00:41:56.620 align:middle line:84% just because they don't have artistic mastery of how 00:41:56.620 --> 00:41:59.840 align:middle line:84% to make someone's eye flow across the page. 00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:01.879 align:middle line:84% One of the things that comiXology app does 00:42:01.879 --> 00:42:03.670 align:middle line:84% is that you can just zoom in panel to panel 00:42:03.670 --> 00:42:06.735 align:middle line:84% to panel to panel to panel, and it's a surprising shift 00:42:06.735 --> 00:42:07.860 align:middle line:90% in the way you can read it. 00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:10.390 align:middle line:84% Anyway, the important thing is that comic stores were getting 00:42:10.390 --> 00:42:11.806 align:middle line:84% a lot less money, and so what they 00:42:11.806 --> 00:42:13.750 align:middle line:84% did is they took all their floor space 00:42:13.750 --> 00:42:16.600 align:middle line:84% and started to dive heavier into the parts of their business 00:42:16.600 --> 00:42:19.720 align:middle line:84% that were generating the money, which was board games and hobby 00:42:19.720 --> 00:42:20.860 align:middle line:90% games. 00:42:20.860 --> 00:42:23.620 align:middle line:84% And the ones that survived-- because a lot of them 00:42:23.620 --> 00:42:24.820 align:middle line:90% have gone out of business. 00:42:24.820 --> 00:42:28.322 align:middle line:84% The ones that survived tend to be really, really good. 00:42:28.322 --> 00:42:30.280 align:middle line:84% And the reason that they're really, really good 00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:31.988 align:middle line:84% is because they realized that they're not 00:42:31.988 --> 00:42:34.000 align:middle line:84% in the business of selling you comics. 00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:36.190 align:middle line:84% They're in the business of creating a community. 00:42:36.190 --> 00:42:38.940 align:middle line:90% 00:42:38.940 --> 00:42:42.520 align:middle line:84% I drive an hour to my comic store because I'm an idiot. 00:42:42.520 --> 00:42:45.550 align:middle line:90% 00:42:45.550 --> 00:42:47.930 align:middle line:84% I could just be buying them online. 00:42:47.930 --> 00:42:49.640 align:middle line:84% I drive an hour to my comic store 00:42:49.640 --> 00:42:53.720 align:middle line:84% because they have their good operators creating 00:42:53.720 --> 00:42:57.470 align:middle line:84% a good community for people to come together and talk 00:42:57.470 --> 00:42:58.730 align:middle line:90% about different projects. 00:42:58.730 --> 00:43:00.320 align:middle line:90% They're always running events. 00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:01.340 align:middle line:90% It's barely a store. 00:43:01.340 --> 00:43:03.048 align:middle line:84% It's like a little mini convention that's 00:43:03.048 --> 00:43:05.510 align:middle line:90% always slightly happening. 00:43:05.510 --> 00:43:09.680 align:middle line:84% And so a large part of that is realizing we 00:43:09.680 --> 00:43:12.230 align:middle line:84% can get people in this store for a longer period of time 00:43:12.230 --> 00:43:14.310 align:middle line:84% if we're all playing games together, 00:43:14.310 --> 00:43:16.836 align:middle line:84% if we're running card game tournaments and board game 00:43:16.836 --> 00:43:17.336 align:middle line:90% tournaments. 00:43:17.336 --> 00:43:18.961 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: The interesting part 00:43:18.961 --> 00:43:22.020 align:middle line:84% is how do we as designers take that? 00:43:22.020 --> 00:43:23.680 align:middle line:90% What's their role to us? 00:43:23.680 --> 00:43:25.880 align:middle line:84% And I mean, before it was definitely, 00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:29.767 align:middle line:84% you could your game picked up by distributors or to a publisher 00:43:29.767 --> 00:43:31.850 align:middle line:84% and a publisher gets picked up by his distributor. 00:43:31.850 --> 00:43:34.640 align:middle line:84% And all of a sudden, you're not selling to a direct audience 00:43:34.640 --> 00:43:35.140 align:middle line:90% online. 00:43:35.140 --> 00:43:38.837 align:middle line:84% You're selling to hundreds of thousands 00:43:38.837 --> 00:43:40.795 align:middle line:84% of little mom and pop stores across the nation, 00:43:40.795 --> 00:43:42.205 align:middle line:90% the numbers are huge. 00:43:42.205 --> 00:43:44.120 align:middle line:90% But now-- 00:43:44.120 --> 00:43:46.810 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: You can still wind up making a lot less. 00:43:46.810 --> 00:43:47.070 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: True. 00:43:47.070 --> 00:43:48.310 align:middle line:84% Because your margins are going to be-- 00:43:48.310 --> 00:43:50.143 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Because your margins are worse. 00:43:50.143 --> 00:43:53.210 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: But the part of the thing you can do now 00:43:53.210 --> 00:43:55.940 align:middle line:84% is that board games can really help with the promotion 00:43:55.940 --> 00:43:57.400 align:middle line:90% of your game. 00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:58.190 align:middle line:90% I know Eureka! 00:43:58.190 --> 00:44:00.950 align:middle line:84% Puzzles, Knight Moves are huge online. 00:44:00.950 --> 00:44:03.366 align:middle line:84% If you've got a game that you want to show people 00:44:03.366 --> 00:44:05.990 align:middle line:84% that you come and teach it to a bunch of people at their store, 00:44:05.990 --> 00:44:10.550 align:middle line:84% they're happy to do that because on the one hand, 00:44:10.550 --> 00:44:15.290 align:middle line:84% you're adding value to their store which they love and need. 00:44:15.290 --> 00:44:17.480 align:middle line:84% So people will, like oh, your new puzzle. 00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:19.840 align:middle line:84% They had one guy come in and that was really cool. 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:21.890 align:middle line:90% I learned how he made this game. 00:44:21.890 --> 00:44:23.730 align:middle line:84% But then you're getting value out that, 00:44:23.730 --> 00:44:25.990 align:middle line:84% and now people know about your game. 00:44:25.990 --> 00:44:29.237 align:middle line:84% And then when a store buys games from you, 00:44:29.237 --> 00:44:31.740 align:middle line:84% you still get maybe not necessarily 00:44:31.740 --> 00:44:32.910 align:middle line:90% the margins you need, but-- 00:44:32.910 --> 00:44:35.100 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: They're still a lot better. 00:44:35.100 --> 00:44:39.140 align:middle line:84% So normally in traditional publishing, 00:44:39.140 --> 00:44:42.300 align:middle line:84% if I was going to put out a board game 20 years ago, 00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:44.780 align:middle line:84% 15 years ago, I would have to find a distributor 00:44:44.780 --> 00:44:47.210 align:middle line:84% like Alliance or Diamond or something, 00:44:47.210 --> 00:44:51.590 align:middle line:84% and then I would sell my game to them for 20% of the MSRP, 00:44:51.590 --> 00:44:54.260 align:middle line:84% which is the manufacturer's suggested retail price. 00:44:54.260 --> 00:44:57.440 align:middle line:84% So if I had a game that was $25, I would sell it 00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:03.800 align:middle line:84% to the distributor for $5, and then 00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:06.595 align:middle line:84% he would turn around and sell it to a store for somewhere 00:45:06.595 --> 00:45:11.604 align:middle line:84% in between that $5 and half the MSRP, and that's his cut. 00:45:11.604 --> 00:45:13.520 align:middle line:84% And in between, there's all these other people 00:45:13.520 --> 00:45:14.938 align:middle line:84% who are taking their cut and taking their cut 00:45:14.938 --> 00:45:15.290 align:middle line:90% and taking their cut. 00:45:15.290 --> 00:45:18.200 align:middle line:84% And the reason I've made jokes about the music industry model 00:45:18.200 --> 00:45:20.650 align:middle line:84% from the '90s is because it's the same fucking model. 00:45:20.650 --> 00:45:21.620 align:middle line:90% It's The same thing. 00:45:21.620 --> 00:45:23.450 align:middle line:84% There are people who are creating stuff, 00:45:23.450 --> 00:45:26.120 align:middle line:84% but because there is no really awesome way for them 00:45:26.120 --> 00:45:28.667 align:middle line:84% to get it directly to the people who care about it, 00:45:28.667 --> 00:45:30.500 align:middle line:84% they have to go through all these weird side 00:45:30.500 --> 00:45:34.200 align:middle line:84% projects, side industries or middleman industries. 00:45:34.200 --> 00:45:39.380 align:middle line:84% Only a few people who are tapped by very, very 00:45:39.380 --> 00:45:44.000 align:middle line:84% powerful companies got to be famous in the '90s. 00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:47.825 align:middle line:84% And then the internet came and destroyed all music, 00:45:47.825 --> 00:45:49.700 align:middle line:84% even though music is making more than it ever 00:45:49.700 --> 00:45:51.200 align:middle line:90% has and all these other things. 00:45:51.200 --> 00:45:54.152 align:middle line:84% But what was rediscovered in that shift, 00:45:54.152 --> 00:45:56.360 align:middle line:84% and this is something that's happening in board games 00:45:56.360 --> 00:46:03.080 align:middle line:84% right now, is that people want the direct audience 00:46:03.080 --> 00:46:05.150 align:middle line:90% to create a connection. 00:46:05.150 --> 00:46:08.540 align:middle line:84% If you could spend $20 on a CD because they 00:46:08.540 --> 00:46:14.570 align:middle line:84% used to be $20 or $20 on a ticket to go see a show, 00:46:14.570 --> 00:46:16.700 align:middle line:84% of a band that you enjoy, even though you don't get 00:46:16.700 --> 00:46:20.060 align:middle line:84% to keep that show forever, come on, 00:46:20.060 --> 00:46:22.380 align:middle line:90% it's so much more enjoyable. 00:46:22.380 --> 00:46:26.955 align:middle line:84% Because you could get that CD in a million different ways 00:46:26.955 --> 00:46:29.360 align:middle line:84% from a million different locations. 00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:31.640 align:middle line:84% It's really easy, but you're getting an experience 00:46:31.640 --> 00:46:33.770 align:middle line:90% with the other thing. 00:46:33.770 --> 00:46:36.917 align:middle line:84% And you're getting to know that you're directly supporting 00:46:36.917 --> 00:46:39.500 align:middle line:84% the creator, which is something that a lot of audience members 00:46:39.500 --> 00:46:40.820 align:middle line:90% are really invested in. 00:46:40.820 --> 00:46:44.720 align:middle line:84% And as someone who is a creator, I'm very invested in that. 00:46:44.720 --> 00:46:46.790 align:middle line:84% But also it's financially beneficial. 00:46:46.790 --> 00:46:53.840 align:middle line:84% So for me, for instance, I can make a short-run print product 00:46:53.840 --> 00:47:00.260 align:middle line:84% for $3 and sell it for $20 and then cook the mailing price 00:47:00.260 --> 00:47:01.460 align:middle line:90% into that and get some-- 00:47:01.460 --> 00:47:04.130 align:middle line:84% I've actually made a reasonably good profit on it. 00:47:04.130 --> 00:47:06.860 align:middle line:84% But if I make it for $3 and want to sell for $20, 00:47:06.860 --> 00:47:10.760 align:middle line:84% I end up having to sell it to a distributor still 00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:12.560 align:middle line:90% for like $4 or $5. 00:47:12.560 --> 00:47:15.050 align:middle line:84% And then in order for it to be worth my time, 00:47:15.050 --> 00:47:16.800 align:middle line:84% I really need to make a whole lot of them. 00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:19.520 align:middle line:84% And the distributors probably only want it 00:47:19.520 --> 00:47:21.060 align:middle line:84% if I can make a whole lot of them. 00:47:21.060 --> 00:47:22.476 align:middle line:84% So now I've got find a way to make 00:47:22.476 --> 00:47:25.430 align:middle line:84% 1,000 of this thing, which, in board games, 00:47:25.430 --> 00:47:27.870 align:middle line:84% is a ridiculous number of game to have. 00:47:27.870 --> 00:47:30.740 align:middle line:90% 00:47:30.740 --> 00:47:32.034 align:middle line:90% Unbelievably large number. 00:47:32.034 --> 00:47:33.950 align:middle line:84% But unfortunately, you can't get it affordable 00:47:33.950 --> 00:47:35.260 align:middle line:90% unless it's above that number. 00:47:35.260 --> 00:47:35.660 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Right. 00:47:35.660 --> 00:47:37.570 align:middle line:84% And that's the front end of financing too. 00:47:37.570 --> 00:47:40.480 align:middle line:84% But if you think about Bell Publishing and stuff, OK, 00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:42.052 align:middle line:84% to make it, I'll need 1,000 copies. 00:47:42.052 --> 00:47:43.760 align:middle line:84% And you'll be able to get a decent budget 00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:44.771 align:middle line:90% and figure out how to use it. 00:47:44.771 --> 00:47:44.852 align:middle line:90% All right. 00:47:44.852 --> 00:47:45.675 align:middle line:90% That's fine. 00:47:45.675 --> 00:47:47.383 align:middle line:84% But then when you do things like, OK, I'm 00:47:47.383 --> 00:47:50.780 align:middle line:84% just going to keep these in my house until I sell them all, 00:47:50.780 --> 00:47:54.570 align:middle line:84% you don't realize how much space 1,000 board games takes up 00:47:54.570 --> 00:47:55.690 align:middle line:90% until you see it. 00:47:55.690 --> 00:47:57.065 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Oh, actually, I have 00:47:57.065 --> 00:48:01.780 align:middle line:84% a video because I have 2,500 in my garage right now. 00:48:01.780 --> 00:48:04.130 align:middle line:84% And it takes up exactly a car's worth. 00:48:04.130 --> 00:48:06.974 align:middle line:90% 00:48:06.974 --> 00:48:08.870 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: You have $2,500? 00:48:08.870 --> 00:48:10.250 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: 2,500 copies-- 00:48:10.250 --> 00:48:11.490 align:middle line:90% 25,000. 00:48:11.490 --> 00:48:12.570 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:48:12.570 --> 00:48:14.410 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: It's a card game? 00:48:14.410 --> 00:48:15.800 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: It's a card game. 00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:20.555 align:middle line:90% It is this card game. 00:48:20.555 --> 00:48:24.300 align:middle line:84% And I've got 2,500 of them in my garage 00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:26.720 align:middle line:84% and then some more of them down at the port [INAUDIBLE]. 00:48:26.720 --> 00:48:28.549 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: We should bring up-- 00:48:28.549 --> 00:48:29.840 align:middle line:90% I don't think you ever said it. 00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:33.754 align:middle line:84% There is some benefit to going through traditional publishing. 00:48:33.754 --> 00:48:35.420 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: It's right for some people. 00:48:35.420 --> 00:48:36.420 align:middle line:90% It's not right for-- 00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:37.878 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: And the reason I 00:48:37.878 --> 00:48:40.570 align:middle line:84% would suggest that is if you get a really good game idea 00:48:40.570 --> 00:48:44.720 align:middle line:84% and you pitch it to a publisher and they really like it, 00:48:44.720 --> 00:48:46.430 align:middle line:84% there's so much more to that than just 00:48:46.430 --> 00:48:47.580 align:middle line:90% being like take this game. 00:48:47.580 --> 00:48:48.530 align:middle line:90% You love your game. 00:48:48.530 --> 00:48:49.370 align:middle line:90% Well, take it. 00:48:49.370 --> 00:48:50.708 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: And here's money. 00:48:50.708 --> 00:48:51.604 align:middle line:90% Forever. 00:48:51.604 --> 00:48:53.290 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: If you create an idea 00:48:53.290 --> 00:48:56.587 align:middle line:84% and you sell it to a publisher, you're done. 00:48:56.587 --> 00:48:58.420 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: And it's not your idea anymore. 00:48:58.420 --> 00:49:00.503 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: And it's not your idea anymore. 00:49:00.503 --> 00:49:05.090 align:middle line:84% But all of a sudden, with self-publishing, I mean, 00:49:05.090 --> 00:49:08.540 align:middle line:84% the amount of effort to make a game fly is huge. 00:49:08.540 --> 00:49:11.060 align:middle line:84% It's massive, especially if you're doing it on your own. 00:49:11.060 --> 00:49:13.830 align:middle line:84% But if you sell it to a publisher, 00:49:13.830 --> 00:49:15.560 align:middle line:84% you're not going to make as much money, 00:49:15.560 --> 00:49:18.626 align:middle line:84% but there comes a point where you're not doing anything 00:49:18.626 --> 00:49:20.000 align:middle line:84% and you're still getting paid it. 00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:20.750 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 00:49:20.750 --> 00:49:22.850 align:middle line:84% 100% of a small number or 5% of a big number. 00:49:22.850 --> 00:49:23.910 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah. 00:49:23.910 --> 00:49:30.120 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: And it's a question of what are you in it for? 00:49:30.120 --> 00:49:33.500 align:middle line:84% And what does your time look like? 00:49:33.500 --> 00:49:37.610 align:middle line:84% For me, I make games and I chose to leave 00:49:37.610 --> 00:49:39.800 align:middle line:84% a life that was not making me happy 00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:43.280 align:middle line:84% but was making me lots of money for a life that is making me 00:49:43.280 --> 00:49:47.652 align:middle line:84% significantly less money but is making me really happy, 00:49:47.652 --> 00:49:49.610 align:middle line:84% because I get to create things and they're fun. 00:49:49.610 --> 00:49:51.901 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: You seem like a really happy person. 00:49:51.901 --> 00:49:53.330 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: It's the medication. 00:49:53.330 --> 00:49:56.200 align:middle line:90% 00:49:56.200 --> 00:49:59.810 align:middle line:84% Also, I don't work in an office so well. 00:49:59.810 --> 00:50:06.890 align:middle line:84% So it fulfills that artistic or productive drive. 00:50:06.890 --> 00:50:11.390 align:middle line:84% And that's not something to be ignored. 00:50:11.390 --> 00:50:11.890 align:middle line:90% Total up. 00:50:11.890 --> 00:50:14.054 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:50:14.054 --> 00:50:15.470 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: The major point 00:50:15.470 --> 00:50:18.200 align:middle line:84% is that it is you want to make your career making games, 00:50:18.200 --> 00:50:20.390 align:middle line:84% do yourself and you're really big. 00:50:20.390 --> 00:50:24.230 align:middle line:84% If you want to put a few games out there and do 00:50:24.230 --> 00:50:27.800 align:middle line:84% a lot of other things with your life, 00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:29.930 align:middle line:84% like once a month sending out all of your games 00:50:29.930 --> 00:50:34.265 align:middle line:84% to every publisher you've got email for, 00:50:34.265 --> 00:50:35.765 align:middle line:84% you don't have to make it your life. 00:50:35.765 --> 00:50:36.470 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 00:50:36.470 --> 00:50:38.303 align:middle line:84% It's like if you were going to start a band, 00:50:38.303 --> 00:50:43.220 align:middle line:84% is the band your life, or is it what you do for fun 00:50:43.220 --> 00:50:45.590 align:middle line:90% with some of your friends? 00:50:45.590 --> 00:50:48.139 align:middle line:84% Neither is an illegitimate way of doing it. 00:50:48.139 --> 00:50:49.805 align:middle line:84% They're just right for different people. 00:50:49.805 --> 00:50:51.554 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: We have more than five minutes. 00:50:51.554 --> 00:50:52.400 align:middle line:90% So one question. 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.354 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Really? 00:50:54.354 --> 00:50:56.340 align:middle line:90% We've have time for two hours? 00:50:56.340 --> 00:50:57.627 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: I can do that. 00:50:57.627 --> 00:50:58.760 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:04.890 align:middle line:90% 00:51:04.890 --> 00:51:08.470 align:middle line:84% Self publishing is undertaking that [INAUDIBLE]. 00:51:08.470 --> 00:51:12.410 align:middle line:90% 00:51:12.410 --> 00:51:14.540 align:middle line:90% Learning curve, so to speak. 00:51:14.540 --> 00:51:17.850 align:middle line:84% And you guys have your fingers on the pulse of the community, 00:51:17.850 --> 00:51:20.052 align:middle line:84% and you know what uP and coming designers 00:51:20.052 --> 00:51:23.796 align:middle line:90% have and the skill sets. 00:51:23.796 --> 00:51:29.146 align:middle line:84% Have you considered publishing other people's games? 00:51:29.146 --> 00:51:31.530 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: I have considered it, 00:51:31.530 --> 00:51:35.280 align:middle line:84% and I've been approached to do it, but I've said no to it. 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:38.520 align:middle line:84% Because I worked in publishing for a long time, 00:51:38.520 --> 00:51:42.780 align:middle line:84% and I am ideologically opposed to that model. 00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:44.310 align:middle line:84% That being said, one of the things 00:51:44.310 --> 00:51:48.060 align:middle line:84% that I do I do this on a consulting basis 00:51:48.060 --> 00:51:53.550 align:middle line:84% and I also do this just through our website and the fact 00:51:53.550 --> 00:51:55.610 align:middle line:84% that all games are Creative Commons licensed 00:51:55.610 --> 00:51:56.990 align:middle line:90% and the whole process-- 00:51:56.990 --> 00:51:58.370 align:middle line:90% Frank, can you turn that down? 00:51:58.370 --> 00:51:59.970 align:middle line:90% --is teach people how to do it. 00:51:59.970 --> 00:52:02.160 align:middle line:84% Because it is an undertaking but it's 00:52:02.160 --> 00:52:03.910 align:middle line:84% nowhere near as hard as you would think. 00:52:03.910 --> 00:52:07.200 align:middle line:90% 00:52:07.200 --> 00:52:10.170 align:middle line:84% The kind of effort you would put into studying for a class 00:52:10.170 --> 00:52:13.680 align:middle line:84% is the kind of effort you need to put into figure out how 00:52:13.680 --> 00:52:18.810 align:middle line:84% to deal with Amazon fulfillment services, 00:52:18.810 --> 00:52:24.690 align:middle line:84% or what does it take to, oh, god, figuring out shipping. 00:52:24.690 --> 00:52:27.840 align:middle line:84% If you ever start at Kickstarter for anything, 00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:29.700 align:middle line:90% figure out the damn shipping. 00:52:29.700 --> 00:52:31.140 align:middle line:90% That will kill you. 00:52:31.140 --> 00:52:35.580 align:middle line:84% I had a friend of mine who made this really cool game called 00:52:35.580 --> 00:52:37.800 align:middle line:84% Mobile Frame Zero, Rapid Attack, which 00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:42.394 align:middle line:84% is a robot fighting game where you make LEGO robots. 00:52:42.394 --> 00:52:43.650 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Oh, yeah. 00:52:43.650 --> 00:52:44.610 align:middle line:90% It's on [INAUDIBLE]. 00:52:44.610 --> 00:52:45.360 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:46.890 align:middle line:84% So they're doing-- and some of it's 00:52:46.890 --> 00:52:48.860 align:middle line:84% new on this weekend, which is like a rockets 00:52:48.860 --> 00:52:49.776 align:middle line:90% in space or something. 00:52:49.776 --> 00:52:54.150 align:middle line:84% Anyway, he raised $85,000 on Kickstarter 00:52:54.150 --> 00:52:57.190 align:middle line:84% to publish what was just a book and mail it to people. 00:52:57.190 --> 00:52:59.437 align:middle line:84% But because he had not-- and he's a smart person-- 00:52:59.437 --> 00:53:01.520 align:middle line:84% because he had not figured out the shipping costs, 00:53:01.520 --> 00:53:05.419 align:middle line:90% he ended up $25,000 in the hole. 00:53:05.419 --> 00:53:07.710 align:middle line:84% Yeah, because you didn't go to the United States Postal 00:53:07.710 --> 00:53:10.950 align:middle line:84% Service and go, what are your rates? 00:53:10.950 --> 00:53:14.160 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: So $85,000 and it cost him 00:53:14.160 --> 00:53:15.810 align:middle line:84% roughly $100,000 just to make it. 00:53:15.810 --> 00:53:21.610 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: So that is what a publisher does for you. 00:53:21.610 --> 00:53:24.180 align:middle line:84% They figure don't even frigging worry about it. 00:53:24.180 --> 00:53:26.970 align:middle line:84% We're take 90% of whatever this game makes, 00:53:26.970 --> 00:53:29.590 align:middle line:84% 95% of whatever this game makes, but you 00:53:29.590 --> 00:53:31.650 align:middle line:84% don't have to worry about any of that crap. 00:53:31.650 --> 00:53:33.234 align:middle line:84% And so for some people that's really-- 00:53:33.234 --> 00:53:34.858 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: What you're actually 00:53:34.858 --> 00:53:37.425 align:middle line:84% finding a lot is that there's tons of small publishers 00:53:37.425 --> 00:53:38.800 align:middle line:84% and these are actually starting-- 00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:41.580 align:middle line:84% I mean, Game Salute is one, Mayday Game, 00:53:41.580 --> 00:53:42.830 align:middle line:90% I don't like that one as much. 00:53:42.830 --> 00:53:43.910 align:middle line:90% Anyway, Mayday, they do-- 00:53:43.910 --> 00:53:45.160 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Like my neighbor. 00:53:45.160 --> 00:53:46.110 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: [INAUDIBLE], which 00:53:46.110 --> 00:53:47.640 align:middle line:90% you might have seen on TV Cops. 00:53:47.640 --> 00:53:48.830 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah, that's Dave Chalker. 00:53:48.830 --> 00:53:49.420 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah. 00:53:49.420 --> 00:53:50.560 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah, he's a really good guy. 00:53:50.560 --> 00:53:52.476 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: But lots of small companies 00:53:52.476 --> 00:53:53.550 align:middle line:90% that-- it was a designer. 00:53:53.550 --> 00:53:54.390 align:middle line:90% He had one games. 00:53:54.390 --> 00:53:56.620 align:middle line:84% He's like I'm going to do it myself and try and make 00:53:56.620 --> 00:53:57.140 align:middle line:90% this work. 00:53:57.140 --> 00:53:58.409 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] was another one. 00:53:58.409 --> 00:53:59.700 align:middle line:90% There's a lot of these little-- 00:53:59.700 --> 00:54:02.010 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: [INAUDIBLE] Games just started like that. 00:54:02.010 --> 00:54:04.659 align:middle line:84% Now they have whole conventions [INAUDIBLE]. 00:54:04.659 --> 00:54:06.450 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: They start with an idea, 00:54:06.450 --> 00:54:08.940 align:middle line:84% they do it themselves, and hey, it works out. 00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:10.380 align:middle line:84% And then from there, they realize, 00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:11.820 align:middle line:84% hey, we should do a lot more of these 00:54:11.820 --> 00:54:14.319 align:middle line:84% because that was successful, and if we're successfuyl at it, 00:54:14.319 --> 00:54:15.440 align:middle line:90% we can make it work. 00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:19.305 align:middle line:84% And after the one designer takes and build the company. 00:54:19.305 --> 00:54:21.720 align:middle line:84% It becomes three or four people, and it 00:54:21.720 --> 00:54:25.110 align:middle line:84% becomes mildly successful, and they push out all the games 00:54:25.110 --> 00:54:26.801 align:middle line:90% that they've felt they can. 00:54:26.801 --> 00:54:28.800 align:middle line:84% I made all the games that I want to setting out. 00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:30.890 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Or they've used all their hours in the day 00:54:30.890 --> 00:54:32.310 align:middle line:84% and they just can't do it anymore. 00:54:32.310 --> 00:54:36.282 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Well then once that happens, 00:54:36.282 --> 00:54:37.740 align:middle line:84% a lot of publishers will then start 00:54:37.740 --> 00:54:40.190 align:middle line:84% to look for other designers and publish their games. 00:54:40.190 --> 00:54:43.720 align:middle line:84% Because you're designing your games, 00:54:43.720 --> 00:54:46.920 align:middle line:84% you've got your A idea, your B idea, and your C idea. 00:54:46.920 --> 00:54:48.204 align:middle line:90% these are all great. 00:54:48.204 --> 00:54:49.620 align:middle line:84% And once you publish all of those, 00:54:49.620 --> 00:54:51.480 align:middle line:84% you start to realize maybe those other ideas 00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:54.290 align:middle line:84% that you have are good, but maybe you'd 00:54:54.290 --> 00:54:58.440 align:middle line:84% be more successful if you could pick out some other ideas 00:54:58.440 --> 00:54:59.960 align:middle line:84% that other people submitted to you. 00:54:59.960 --> 00:55:02.085 align:middle line:84% Really, that's actually better than what I would do myself. 00:55:02.085 --> 00:55:04.293 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Or maybe a lot of times what will happen 00:55:04.293 --> 00:55:07.134 align:middle line:84% is as a designer you do have a lot of ideas 00:55:07.134 --> 00:55:08.550 align:middle line:84% and if you're a smart [INAUDIBLE], 00:55:08.550 --> 00:55:11.990 align:middle line:84% you realize that most of them are probably not good. 00:55:11.990 --> 00:55:13.950 align:middle line:90% But that's fine. 00:55:13.950 --> 00:55:15.900 align:middle line:90% That's absolutely fine. 00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:18.240 align:middle line:84% Nothing springs forth from someone's head 00:55:18.240 --> 00:55:20.310 align:middle line:90% like Athena perfectly formed. 00:55:20.310 --> 00:55:22.170 align:middle line:90% That is not how things are made. 00:55:22.170 --> 00:55:24.730 align:middle line:90% 00:55:24.730 --> 00:55:27.890 align:middle line:84% All of your favorite musicians practiced forever 00:55:27.890 --> 00:55:29.910 align:middle line:90% to get really good. 00:55:29.910 --> 00:55:31.125 align:middle line:90% It's just the way it is. 00:55:31.125 --> 00:55:32.625 align:middle line:84% In game design, it's the same thing. 00:55:32.625 --> 00:55:33.940 align:middle line:84% You have to make a lot of really crap. 00:55:33.940 --> 00:55:35.730 align:middle line:84% There's a really good phrase about writing 00:55:35.730 --> 00:55:39.139 align:middle line:84% which is that every writer has 2,000 bad pages in them, 00:55:39.139 --> 00:55:41.430 align:middle line:84% and the good writers are the ones who got the 2,000 out 00:55:41.430 --> 00:55:42.910 align:middle line:90% somewhere else. 00:55:42.910 --> 00:55:45.190 align:middle line:84% So you've got to keep that in mind. 00:55:45.190 --> 00:55:53.010 align:middle line:84% But I think that the ability to find publishers is not 00:55:53.010 --> 00:55:55.230 align:middle line:84% diminishing, but the ability to self-publish 00:55:55.230 --> 00:55:57.360 align:middle line:84% is rising, especially, although we have 00:55:57.360 --> 00:56:02.190 align:middle line:84% great self-publishing tools now and the internet is really 00:56:02.190 --> 00:56:05.970 align:middle line:84% good for sharing things, the biggest thing that's 00:56:05.970 --> 00:56:08.070 align:middle line:84% happened in the past year and going into this year 00:56:08.070 --> 00:56:10.950 align:middle line:90% is 3D printing. 00:56:10.950 --> 00:56:16.230 align:middle line:84% So while we've hit the head into what self-publishing is, 00:56:16.230 --> 00:56:20.370 align:middle line:84% we're just beginning to see what desktop manufacturing is, 00:56:20.370 --> 00:56:25.410 align:middle line:84% like people who are just running their own little factories 00:56:25.410 --> 00:56:27.295 align:middle line:84% in their houses, which is super cool. 00:56:27.295 --> 00:56:29.420 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Actually doing that for my game. 00:56:29.420 --> 00:56:30.340 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 00:56:30.340 --> 00:56:31.340 align:middle line:90% That's so cool. 00:56:31.340 --> 00:56:33.790 align:middle line:84% I really want to do that so much. 00:56:33.790 --> 00:56:36.170 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: I think we have time for a question. 00:56:36.170 --> 00:56:37.164 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]? 00:56:37.164 --> 00:56:39.995 align:middle line:90% 00:56:39.995 --> 00:56:42.124 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: It depends on the scale. 00:56:42.124 --> 00:56:43.040 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]? 00:56:43.040 --> 00:56:43.748 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yes. 00:56:43.748 --> 00:56:44.960 align:middle line:90% This was printed in China. 00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:46.418 align:middle line:84% Like I said, just got off the boat. 00:56:46.418 --> 00:56:48.830 align:middle line:90% 00:56:48.830 --> 00:56:54.792 align:middle line:84% So I worked with a printer on this 00:56:54.792 --> 00:56:56.750 align:middle line:84% because I've been doing printing and publishing 00:56:56.750 --> 00:57:00.339 align:middle line:84% for so long, I know the jargon and know the lingo. 00:57:00.339 --> 00:57:01.880 align:middle line:84% Again, another thing that a publisher 00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:04.790 align:middle line:84% can be really good for is that you 00:57:04.790 --> 00:57:08.340 align:middle line:84% don't need to study to figure out all of the things. 00:57:08.340 --> 00:57:10.615 align:middle line:84% They have made all those mistakes in the past for you. 00:57:10.615 --> 00:57:11.990 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: You don't need 00:57:11.990 --> 00:57:14.750 align:middle line:84% to screw up your bleed lines, your print cards 00:57:14.750 --> 00:57:16.385 align:middle line:84% and all of the-- they're all offset. 00:57:16.385 --> 00:57:17.720 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: If you've got the expertise 00:57:17.720 --> 00:57:19.204 align:middle line:84% or you can organize the expertise 00:57:19.204 --> 00:57:21.620 align:middle line:84% amongst the people you know, you can get past a lot of it. 00:57:21.620 --> 00:57:24.830 align:middle line:84% But think about it, everyone who's 00:57:24.830 --> 00:57:27.320 align:middle line:84% printing stuff or making things, they 00:57:27.320 --> 00:57:30.740 align:middle line:90% want you to use their services. 00:57:30.740 --> 00:57:32.540 align:middle line:84% Because they are a service industry, 00:57:32.540 --> 00:57:34.635 align:middle line:84% they're going to make it as easy as possible. 00:57:34.635 --> 00:57:36.260 align:middle line:84% And if they don't make it easy, there's 00:57:36.260 --> 00:57:39.260 align:middle line:84% someone like four blocks down that 00:57:39.260 --> 00:57:43.350 align:middle line:84% is probably going to do it because yay, capitalism. 00:57:43.350 --> 00:57:45.890 align:middle line:84% There is, I think, god, one [INAUDIBLE]. 00:57:45.890 --> 00:57:48.550 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] like buy a printer? 00:57:48.550 --> 00:57:49.720 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: No, it is. 00:57:49.720 --> 00:57:52.010 align:middle line:84% It's actually a huge expense to buy a printer. 00:57:52.010 --> 00:57:54.140 align:middle line:84% The problem with printers is that they're super 00:57:54.140 --> 00:57:56.770 align:middle line:90% expensive to have and not use. 00:57:56.770 --> 00:57:59.314 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It's better to have a team run it. 00:57:59.314 --> 00:58:00.230 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Oh, yeah. 00:58:00.230 --> 00:58:03.380 align:middle line:84% You want that machine running losing money 00:58:03.380 --> 00:58:05.900 align:middle line:84% because you'll lose less money than if it 00:58:05.900 --> 00:58:08.340 align:middle line:90% wasn't running at all. 00:58:08.340 --> 00:58:10.280 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: There are a decent number 00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:12.500 align:middle line:84% of American manufacturers, certainly 00:58:12.500 --> 00:58:14.606 align:middle line:90% for prototype-level materials. 00:58:14.606 --> 00:58:16.730 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: And in Massachusetts, like [INAUDIBLE] 00:58:16.730 --> 00:58:17.702 align:middle line:90% of Massachusetts. 00:58:17.702 --> 00:58:19.660 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Specifically, Massachusetts, 00:58:19.660 --> 00:58:22.910 align:middle line:90% there's a lot of stuff. 00:58:22.910 --> 00:58:24.950 align:middle line:84% I would say from what effort, nothing 00:58:24.950 --> 00:58:28.005 align:middle line:84% will beat China in terms of cost. 00:58:28.005 --> 00:58:32.510 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: It depends on the exact scope of your project 00:58:32.510 --> 00:58:35.360 align:middle line:84% and the number of units that you're doing. 00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:40.220 align:middle line:84% So if you're doing a few units of a very complicated thing, 00:58:40.220 --> 00:58:43.460 align:middle line:84% you could actually probably get good prices in America. 00:58:43.460 --> 00:58:46.680 align:middle line:84% If you're doing a lot of units of something relatively simple, 00:58:46.680 --> 00:58:47.270 align:middle line:90% you're right. 00:58:47.270 --> 00:58:48.020 align:middle line:90% You can't beat it. 00:58:48.020 --> 00:58:49.061 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Right. 00:58:49.061 --> 00:58:51.490 align:middle line:84% And then oftentimes, some people will do piece mail 00:58:51.490 --> 00:58:53.323 align:middle line:84% so they'll get some printers for some things 00:58:53.323 --> 00:58:54.630 align:middle line:90% like the boxes, the rule books. 00:58:54.630 --> 00:58:57.230 align:middle line:84% And you can pull that together, and that can be a nightmare. 00:58:57.230 --> 00:58:58.960 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: It can be. 00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:02.510 align:middle line:84% But there are specifically services that you can hire. 00:59:02.510 --> 00:59:05.240 align:middle line:84% They're called pick and pack warehouses 00:59:05.240 --> 00:59:06.680 align:middle line:84% where let's say I had a board game 00:59:06.680 --> 00:59:09.260 align:middle line:84% and it had components coming from the four 00:59:09.260 --> 00:59:10.702 align:middle line:90% corners of the earth. 00:59:10.702 --> 00:59:12.410 align:middle line:84% I could get them all shipped to one place 00:59:12.410 --> 00:59:15.140 align:middle line:84% and then pay a person a quarter per unit to pack it 00:59:15.140 --> 00:59:17.210 align:middle line:90% all together and whatever. 00:59:17.210 --> 00:59:20.600 align:middle line:84% And if I filled out my spreadsheet correctly, 00:59:20.600 --> 00:59:24.691 align:middle line:84% I will realize whether that is a financially viable thing 00:59:24.691 --> 00:59:25.190 align:middle line:90% or not. 00:59:25.190 --> 00:59:27.870 align:middle line:90% 00:59:27.870 --> 00:59:31.100 align:middle line:84% So one of the things that I like about self-manufacturing 00:59:31.100 --> 00:59:33.680 align:middle line:84% is that I can figure that stuff out as I'm doing it. 00:59:33.680 --> 00:59:37.388 align:middle line:84% So for instance, on early prototypes of Slash, 00:59:37.388 --> 00:59:40.490 align:middle line:84% I was printing all the cards and cutting all the cards 00:59:40.490 --> 00:59:44.020 align:middle line:84% and killing myself because it's a lot of cards to cut. 00:59:44.020 --> 00:59:46.816 align:middle line:84% And so it digs back into the design. 00:59:46.816 --> 00:59:48.440 align:middle line:84% Well, if I change the size of the card, 00:59:48.440 --> 00:59:49.940 align:middle line:84% I can use this machine to cut it, 00:59:49.940 --> 00:59:53.109 align:middle line:84% and it's going to save me a half hour on every single unit. 00:59:53.109 --> 00:59:55.150 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: And that's a whole other thing 00:59:55.150 --> 00:59:56.585 align:middle line:90% is design around like-- 00:59:56.585 --> 00:59:58.210 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: Your typical capabilities. 00:59:58.210 --> 01:00:00.043 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Which you'll actually see 01:00:00.043 --> 01:00:02.636 align:middle line:90% the rise of super small games. 01:00:02.636 --> 01:00:03.969 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Micro games. 01:00:03.969 --> 01:00:05.510 align:middle line:84% Because they take a lot less to make. 01:00:05.510 --> 01:00:06.510 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah. 01:00:06.510 --> 01:00:09.270 align:middle line:84% The biggest game you can create using 10 wooden chips 01:00:09.270 --> 01:00:12.430 align:middle line:84% and miniature dice and fit into a package about this big. 01:00:12.430 --> 01:00:16.209 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: So there's that threshold. 01:00:16.209 --> 01:00:17.750 align:middle line:84% So one of the things I have with this 01:00:17.750 --> 01:00:21.560 align:middle line:84% is that when you do printing, you usually have one big, 01:00:21.560 --> 01:00:23.480 align:middle line:84% let's say for cards, one big piece of paper 01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:26.063 align:middle line:84% with a bunch of different cards on it then you cut it all out. 01:00:26.063 --> 01:00:28.820 align:middle line:84% Now, if I'm making 24 copies of the game, 01:00:28.820 --> 01:00:31.190 align:middle line:84% it just so happens that I can fit 24 cards 01:00:31.190 --> 01:00:37.089 align:middle line:84% on one sheet of paper, which means instead of printing card 01:00:37.089 --> 01:00:39.380 align:middle line:84% A, B, C, D, E F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, 01:00:39.380 --> 01:00:41.796 align:middle line:84% whatever on that one page and then cutting it out and then 01:00:41.796 --> 01:00:45.710 align:middle line:84% sorting it, I can print A 24 times 01:00:45.710 --> 01:00:48.980 align:middle line:84% and then do that 400 times in a row, stack them all together, 01:00:48.980 --> 01:00:51.396 align:middle line:84% chop it, chop it, chop it, chop it, chop it, chop it, chop 01:00:51.396 --> 01:00:52.850 align:middle line:84% it, chop it, chop it, and I don't 01:00:52.850 --> 01:00:55.010 align:middle line:90% have to sort me thing anymore. 01:00:55.010 --> 01:00:58.970 align:middle line:84% I have cut hours off of that pick and pack time. 01:00:58.970 --> 01:01:01.490 align:middle line:84% And now multiply by the number that I just got out of it. 01:01:01.490 --> 01:01:04.790 align:middle line:84% Instead of making one game every half hour, 01:01:04.790 --> 01:01:08.022 align:middle line:84% I'm making 12 games every 15 minutes or something. 01:01:08.022 --> 01:01:09.980 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: I just want to go back again 01:01:09.980 --> 01:01:13.000 align:middle line:84% to the China versus the States as well as I'm 01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:15.130 align:middle line:90% finding a lot of kickstarters. 01:01:15.130 --> 01:01:19.850 align:middle line:84% Realize that the margins they need for small amounts, 01:01:19.850 --> 01:01:23.992 align:middle line:84% they have to go to China if they're going to break even. 01:01:23.992 --> 01:01:26.720 align:middle line:84% But if they exceed goals or go much 01:01:26.720 --> 01:01:28.980 align:middle line:84% and they can do larger quantities produced 01:01:28.980 --> 01:01:31.230 align:middle line:84% in the States, then they use the same margins. 01:01:31.230 --> 01:01:35.020 align:middle line:84% So a lot of people will, if they can get a game big enough, 01:01:35.020 --> 01:01:38.950 align:middle line:84% will try and have a stretch goal, 01:01:38.950 --> 01:01:41.220 align:middle line:84% bring games to the United States if they 01:01:41.220 --> 01:01:43.030 align:middle line:90% can sell enough of them. 01:01:43.030 --> 01:01:47.460 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: This is a challenge that is unique to analog games, 01:01:47.460 --> 01:01:48.099 align:middle line:90% obviously. 01:01:48.099 --> 01:01:50.640 align:middle line:84% You don't need to worry about where you're getting your cards 01:01:50.640 --> 01:01:53.340 align:middle line:84% cut, I guess unless you're making 01:01:53.340 --> 01:01:54.620 align:middle line:90% some kind of Pokemon AR game. 01:01:54.620 --> 01:01:55.860 align:middle line:90% That would be super cool. 01:01:55.860 --> 01:01:58.354 align:middle line:90% 01:01:58.354 --> 01:01:59.270 align:middle line:90% How do they have that? 01:01:59.270 --> 01:02:02.850 align:middle line:90% They've got to have that, right? 01:02:02.850 --> 01:02:04.860 align:middle line:84% Do they actually interact with each other? 01:02:04.860 --> 01:02:05.360 align:middle line:90% They should. 01:02:05.360 --> 01:02:07.440 align:middle line:84% Because last year they did a kickstarter 01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:11.400 align:middle line:84% for Goal Marcana, which is like an app and a miniatures war 01:02:11.400 --> 01:02:14.220 align:middle line:84% games where your dude has a QR code on it, 01:02:14.220 --> 01:02:17.473 align:middle line:84% and then it uses the app to do all the combat. 01:02:17.473 --> 01:02:20.310 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: There's a [INAUDIBLE] tradition of Japanese arcade 01:02:20.310 --> 01:02:22.126 align:middle line:84% games that reads cards probability. 01:02:22.126 --> 01:02:23.000 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Oh, god. 01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:23.790 align:middle line:90% I remember that. 01:02:23.790 --> 01:02:27.076 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Mario Kart of our games, I've got one. 01:02:27.076 --> 01:02:28.024 align:middle line:90% That's great. 01:02:28.024 --> 01:02:32.290 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: [INAUDIBLE] 01:02:32.290 --> 01:02:33.712 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]? 01:02:33.712 --> 01:02:34.510 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: Yeah. 01:02:34.510 --> 01:02:35.009 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 01:02:35.009 --> 01:02:36.137 align:middle line:90% We're going to play until. 01:02:36.137 --> 01:02:38.999 align:middle line:90% Thanks for coming. 01:02:38.999 --> 01:02:40.430 align:middle line:90% One second. 01:02:40.430 --> 01:02:42.815 align:middle line:90% Thanks again for everybody. 01:02:42.815 --> 01:02:45.690 align:middle line:90% 01:02:45.690 --> 01:02:47.960 align:middle line:84% So we're going to spend the last two hours of class. 01:02:47.960 --> 01:02:49.959 align:middle line:84% Well, first we're going to have to take a break, 01:02:49.959 --> 01:02:51.502 align:middle line:90% check in with y'all. 01:02:51.502 --> 01:02:53.000 align:middle line:84% Did you do that already with games? 01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:56.290 align:middle line:84% We'll check in with y'all to see how you've formed into teams 01:02:56.290 --> 01:02:57.730 align:middle line:90% yet for that project. 01:02:57.730 --> 01:02:59.825 align:middle line:84% And then we're going to be playing-- 01:02:59.825 --> 01:03:01.810 align:middle line:84% do you have a couple of your games? 01:03:01.810 --> 01:03:04.076 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: I brought I think eight different games 01:03:04.076 --> 01:03:04.700 align:middle line:90% that I've made. 01:03:04.700 --> 01:03:05.706 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: Well, great. 01:03:05.706 --> 01:03:06.880 align:middle line:84% So we're going to play some of those games, 01:03:06.880 --> 01:03:08.830 align:middle line:84% and we're all going to play, we've 01:03:08.830 --> 01:03:12.146 align:middle line:84% got three games that are related to the assignment 01:03:12.146 --> 01:03:13.370 align:middle line:90% that we've talked about. 01:03:13.370 --> 01:03:15.370 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Also if anyone is interested, 01:03:15.370 --> 01:03:17.995 align:middle line:84% I'm going to go ahead and leave some of business cards up here. 01:03:17.995 --> 01:03:20.226 align:middle line:84% As I go through the process of making 01:03:20.226 --> 01:03:22.400 align:middle line:84% my game through Kickstarter, I'm basically 01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:25.300 align:middle line:84% going to be posting my experiences every step 01:03:25.300 --> 01:03:28.270 align:middle line:84% of the way from design to manufacturer. 01:03:28.270 --> 01:03:30.740 align:middle line:84% So if you want to watch someone struggle immensely 01:03:30.740 --> 01:03:33.829 align:middle line:84% through the process and watch the mistakes that I've 01:03:33.829 --> 01:03:34.870 align:middle line:90% made and laugh immensely. 01:03:34.870 --> 01:03:37.180 align:middle line:90% It's going to be hilarious. 01:03:37.180 --> 01:03:39.720 align:middle line:90% Just grab a business card. 01:03:39.720 --> 01:03:43.080 align:middle line:84% If you're interested in playing Croquet and also murdering 01:03:43.080 --> 01:03:48.688 align:middle line:84% each other, this is definitely the game for that. 01:03:48.688 --> 01:03:51.850 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: And so just to show you guys, 01:03:51.850 --> 01:03:54.547 align:middle line:84% these are the three phases of prototypes. 01:03:54.547 --> 01:03:56.380 align:middle line:84% Well, these are the two phases of prototypes 01:03:56.380 --> 01:03:57.410 align:middle line:90% that I went through. 01:03:57.410 --> 01:03:59.110 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: They each have VHS cassettes. 01:03:59.110 --> 01:03:59.860 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 01:03:59.860 --> 01:04:00.940 align:middle line:90% And so here's the trick. 01:04:00.940 --> 01:04:02.800 align:middle line:84% The reason that it's in a VHS cassette 01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:09.000 align:middle line:84% is because this will fit into the smallest flat rate priority 01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:09.640 align:middle line:90% mailer. 01:04:09.640 --> 01:04:10.890 align:middle line:90% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Oh, really? 01:04:10.890 --> 01:04:13.780 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: I can get any game that fits in this size anywhere 01:04:13.780 --> 01:04:16.750 align:middle line:90% in America for $5 in two days. 01:04:16.750 --> 01:04:19.040 align:middle line:90% And you can't beat that. 01:04:19.040 --> 01:04:21.340 align:middle line:84% And so if I wanted to get a lot of these games 01:04:21.340 --> 01:04:23.790 align:middle line:84% out and not get a second mortgage on my house 01:04:23.790 --> 01:04:26.770 align:middle line:84% because I'm not an idiot, I designed that. 01:04:26.770 --> 01:04:31.142 align:middle line:84% So I actually do that with all of my monthly games. 01:04:31.142 --> 01:04:33.100 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: And the cases are probably-- 01:04:33.100 --> 01:04:34.400 align:middle line:84% GLENN GIVEN: The case are dirt cheap. 01:04:34.400 --> 01:04:35.640 align:middle line:90% They're like $0.08 each. 01:04:35.640 --> 01:04:36.520 align:middle line:84% MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah, because nobody uses them anymore. 01:04:36.520 --> 01:04:37.580 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 01:04:37.580 --> 01:04:38.680 align:middle line:90% No one needs it. 01:04:38.680 --> 01:04:41.530 align:middle line:84% So I found a place that is still selling them. 01:04:41.530 --> 01:04:45.600 align:middle line:90% So supply chain stuff. 01:04:45.600 --> 01:04:58.541 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: So [INAUDIBLE] 01:04:58.541 --> 01:05:01.660 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: No, I did not. 01:05:01.660 --> 01:05:04.220 align:middle line:90% I don't know Maybe I did. 01:05:04.220 --> 01:05:07.532 align:middle line:84% My artist is supposed to be getting it to me today. 01:05:07.532 --> 01:05:13.108 align:middle line:90% 01:05:13.108 --> 01:05:14.566 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Thanks for coming, guys. 01:05:14.566 --> 01:05:15.280 align:middle line:90% What are you guys doing? 01:05:15.280 --> 01:05:16.382 align:middle line:90% GLENN GIVEN: Oh, thanks. 01:05:16.382 --> 01:05:17.510 align:middle line:90% That was great. 01:05:17.510 --> 01:05:19.060 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 01:05:19.060 --> 01:05:25.411 align:middle line:90%