WEBVTT 00:00:00.090 --> 00:00:02.490 The following content is provided under a Creative 00:00:02.490 --> 00:00:04.030 Commons license. 00:00:04.030 --> 00:00:06.330 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:06.330 --> 00:00:10.690 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 00:00:10.690 --> 00:00:13.320 To make a donation or view additional materials 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:17.250 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:17.250 --> 00:00:18.420 at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:20.700 --> 00:00:25.860 PROFESSOR: All right, so this weekend's reading 00:00:25.860 --> 00:00:30.319 was met because be giving a YouTube presentation. 00:00:30.319 --> 00:00:31.860 Actually it was a Google presentation 00:00:31.860 --> 00:00:34.110 that was recorded onto YouTube. 00:00:34.110 --> 00:00:36.465 And he's the designer of Pandemic, 00:00:36.465 --> 00:00:39.250 he also made the game Forbidden Island, 00:00:39.250 --> 00:00:40.346 and I think he also did-- 00:00:40.346 --> 00:00:40.846 Desert. 00:00:40.846 --> 00:00:44.580 I'm assuming that he did Forbidden Desert. 00:00:44.580 --> 00:00:47.687 That's my guess because they're not that different of games. 00:00:50.250 --> 00:00:54.630 I mean, these are cooperative games, for the most part. 00:00:54.630 --> 00:00:57.030 How many of you have played one of these games? 00:00:57.030 --> 00:00:59.121 Forbidden Island, Pandemic-- 00:00:59.121 --> 00:01:00.940 Pandemic the board game, specifically. 00:01:00.940 --> 00:01:03.360 Yeah, OK. 00:01:03.360 --> 00:01:06.810 Pandemic the computer game is a completely different game. 00:01:06.810 --> 00:01:07.310 Huh? 00:01:10.372 --> 00:01:14.088 AUDIENCE: Pandemic Two, the online game? 00:01:14.088 --> 00:01:15.064 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 00:01:15.064 --> 00:01:17.500 The one where you shut off Madagascar. 00:01:17.500 --> 00:01:18.820 AUDIENCE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:01:18.820 --> 00:01:22.000 PROFESSOR: OK, that one is a different game. 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.640 It's same title, same concept, right. 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:27.105 I mean, it sort of made sense that they would have 00:01:27.105 --> 00:01:28.290 [INAUDIBLE]. 00:01:28.290 --> 00:01:30.344 I mean, there's probably more of a similarity 00:01:30.344 --> 00:01:32.302 of civilization of board game than civilization 00:01:32.302 --> 00:01:34.340 of computer games. 00:01:34.340 --> 00:01:37.770 Although the civilization that you play as a board game 00:01:37.770 --> 00:01:39.750 nowadays was not the same civilization 00:01:39.750 --> 00:01:43.356 the board game that existed when the computer game [INAUDIBLE]. 00:01:43.356 --> 00:01:55.410 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:01:55.410 --> 00:01:59.120 PROFESSOR: The computer game aside, you can play the-- 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:01.590 how many of you basically played a game 00:02:01.590 --> 00:02:03.380 where it just turned into one person 00:02:03.380 --> 00:02:05.430 telling you to do everything? 00:02:05.430 --> 00:02:08.030 That's my [INAUDIBLE]. 00:02:08.030 --> 00:02:09.720 How many of you had the same thing 00:02:09.720 --> 00:02:15.092 happen with either Forbidden Island or Forbidden Desert? 00:02:15.092 --> 00:02:16.870 It happened with you two? 00:02:16.870 --> 00:02:18.860 Or were you the one telling people [INAUDIBLE]? 00:02:18.860 --> 00:02:21.740 [LAUGHER] 00:02:22.515 --> 00:02:23.850 PROFESSOR: So it seems-- 00:02:23.850 --> 00:02:26.530 actually, how many people play Forbidden Island or Desert? 00:02:26.530 --> 00:02:27.210 OK, only one. 00:02:27.210 --> 00:02:28.280 OK. 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:29.200 AUDIENCE: So 100%. 00:02:29.200 --> 00:02:31.670 PROFESSOR: So maybe it happens a lot more often. 00:02:31.670 --> 00:02:32.420 I don't know. 00:02:32.420 --> 00:02:34.770 If find it happens a little bit less often with Island, 00:02:34.770 --> 00:02:40.200 but it happens to me every time I play Pandemic. 00:02:40.200 --> 00:02:42.900 On one hand I'm usually the one receiving orders, 00:02:42.900 --> 00:02:46.920 and I don't mind because I'm not that invested in it. 00:02:46.920 --> 00:02:49.570 But on the other hand, I'm not that invested in it. 00:02:49.570 --> 00:02:50.890 It kind of like takes me out. 00:02:50.890 --> 00:02:53.356 When someone starts telling me, this is what you should do, 00:02:53.356 --> 00:02:54.730 clearly this is the optimal move. 00:02:54.730 --> 00:02:56.271 This is the thing that you should do. 00:02:56.271 --> 00:02:57.430 It's like, that's fine. 00:02:57.430 --> 00:02:58.954 I'll do it. 00:02:58.954 --> 00:03:00.870 I don't care about this game anymore because I 00:03:00.870 --> 00:03:02.622 don't have any [INAUDIBLE]. 00:03:02.622 --> 00:03:03.330 But I don't know. 00:03:03.330 --> 00:03:03.982 Yeah? 00:03:03.982 --> 00:03:06.392 AUDIENCE: So in my experience it's always 00:03:06.392 --> 00:03:11.046 been each of the players is doing that. 00:03:11.046 --> 00:03:13.420 PROFESSOR: Everybody else is telling you to do something? 00:03:13.420 --> 00:03:15.086 AUDIENCE: Every single person is telling 00:03:15.086 --> 00:03:18.325 every single other person exactly what to do, 00:03:18.325 --> 00:03:21.210 and every person ends up making a decision for themselves. 00:03:21.210 --> 00:03:23.554 Just at the end being like, OK guys, here's 00:03:23.554 --> 00:03:26.440 what I'm actually doing because I think that [INAUDIBLE]. 00:03:26.440 --> 00:03:28.605 PROFESSOR: That sounds reasonably interactive 00:03:28.605 --> 00:03:31.332 and you still have a decision to make anyway. 00:03:31.332 --> 00:03:34.710 AUDIENCE: It's fun because you actually get to like-- 00:03:34.710 --> 00:03:35.854 people actually listen-- 00:03:35.854 --> 00:03:36.520 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:40.220 AUDIENCE: --on one hand because when you bring up a good point 00:03:40.220 --> 00:03:43.230 they'll be like, oh yeah, that's a good point. 00:03:43.230 --> 00:03:45.990 But on the other hand, no one-- it's 00:03:45.990 --> 00:03:47.961 not one person playing the game. 00:03:47.961 --> 00:03:50.460 PROFESSOR: It's like a board of directors giving you advice, 00:03:50.460 --> 00:03:51.270 and then you've got to figure out 00:03:51.270 --> 00:03:52.817 what's the right thing to do. 00:03:52.817 --> 00:03:55.150 AUDIENCE: Except as you're done you start giving advice. 00:03:55.150 --> 00:03:56.774 PROFESSOR: And everyone switches roles. 00:03:56.774 --> 00:04:00.140 AUDIENCE: I don't know if you're saying 00:04:00.140 --> 00:04:01.350 it's a negative, necessarily. 00:04:01.350 --> 00:04:02.530 PROFESSOR: I'm not necessarily saying that. 00:04:02.530 --> 00:04:04.150 AUDIENCE: But I feel like that might have very well been 00:04:04.150 --> 00:04:05.073 what he was going for. 00:04:05.073 --> 00:04:06.780 Like in the video he was all talking about his wife, 00:04:06.780 --> 00:04:09.650 and like, he wanted to be able to play with his wife, right? 00:04:09.650 --> 00:04:11.275 So this is kind of a serious gamer 00:04:11.275 --> 00:04:13.510 can play it with someone that's not as invested 00:04:13.510 --> 00:04:15.786 is kind of what you're saying a little bit. 00:04:15.786 --> 00:04:17.620 PROFESSOR: Yeah, I mean, as a result 00:04:17.620 --> 00:04:19.329 I've played many games of Pandemic, 00:04:19.329 --> 00:04:21.667 which is a good thing. 00:04:21.667 --> 00:04:22.167 Yeah? 00:04:22.167 --> 00:04:27.680 AUDIENCE: Sometimes I think, like, [INAUDIBLE] 00:04:37.290 --> 00:04:38.912 PROFESSOR: Right. 00:04:38.912 --> 00:04:40.870 Like deliberately sabotaging. 00:04:40.870 --> 00:04:41.870 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:04:41.870 --> 00:04:49.750 Also, there's a game that [INAUDIBLE] being play 00:04:49.750 --> 00:04:50.800 tested basically. 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:56.090 Called [INAUDIBLE], it's like, really pretty tactical. 00:04:56.090 --> 00:04:58.873 There's like a [INAUDIBLE] strategic components and you 00:04:58.873 --> 00:05:01.860 have teams of players [INAUDIBLE], but there's huge-- 00:05:01.860 --> 00:05:03.548 there are large player [INAUDIBLE], 00:05:03.548 --> 00:05:06.930 but at the same time it's really hard for one player 00:05:06.930 --> 00:05:08.720 to go help someone else on their team 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:10.720 and do everything else components 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:13.220 of two minutes for your turn. 00:05:13.220 --> 00:05:18.780 And so it happens [INAUDIBLE] someone is, where like, 00:05:18.780 --> 00:05:20.820 someone steps in and tries to help someone else, 00:05:20.820 --> 00:05:23.040 and they end up screwing it up even worse 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.026 because they didn't realize that they [INAUDIBLE] everything 00:05:26.026 --> 00:05:27.776 that was going on and didn't have the time 00:05:27.776 --> 00:05:28.830 to analyze it properly. 00:05:28.830 --> 00:05:30.871 PROFESSOR: I think that's like an example of what 00:05:30.871 --> 00:05:33.190 you're describing as well as like here. 00:05:33.190 --> 00:05:37.300 In the realm of [INAUDIBLE] co-op games or games with 00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:42.660 a very strong [INAUDIBLE] component, you got-- 00:05:42.660 --> 00:05:47.790 there is an assumption, at least in games like Pandemic, 00:05:47.790 --> 00:05:51.200 that it's not so much that something 00:05:51.200 --> 00:05:54.072 is out there strategizing to beat you 00:05:54.072 --> 00:05:57.340 and you're trying to over come it-- like a different player, 00:05:57.340 --> 00:06:01.150 for instance, who is trying to achieve victory at your cost. 00:06:01.150 --> 00:06:04.800 It's more about, can you get your affairs 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:08.920 and your communication and your decision making lined up 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:12.330 [INAUDIBLE] so that you can actually 00:06:12.330 --> 00:06:15.190 overcome the odds that the designer has set up for you? 00:06:15.190 --> 00:06:18.410 So I think in the case of the [INAUDIBLE] games, there's 00:06:18.410 --> 00:06:20.430 actually somebody out there who's actively 00:06:20.430 --> 00:06:23.240 playing the game who's actively trying to win 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:29.010 at the expense of your victory. 00:06:29.010 --> 00:06:32.810 So one way that I certainly see is the [? timing, ?] right 00:06:32.810 --> 00:06:37.970 is it's OK to cooperate as much as you want in a minute. 00:06:37.970 --> 00:06:42.360 And that just leads to, like, confusion and bad judgment 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:48.180 calls and sometimes hilarity and [INAUDIBLE] Space Alert, 00:06:48.180 --> 00:06:52.410 which is maybe a game which you should [INAUDIBLE] 00:06:52.410 --> 00:06:54.780 because it's-- 00:06:54.780 --> 00:06:57.600 for those people who don't remember me describing it 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:02.370 in previous classes, you're all members of a starship. 00:07:02.370 --> 00:07:04.140 You all pretty much aren't sure what 00:07:04.140 --> 00:07:05.640 you're supposed to be doing. 00:07:05.640 --> 00:07:08.040 You're playing the game in real time 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:12.210 because events happen as you play an audio track that 00:07:12.210 --> 00:07:14.780 just runs nonstop. 00:07:14.780 --> 00:07:17.460 It never pauses until the game is over. 00:07:17.460 --> 00:07:19.830 And you all have to be very, very coordinated 00:07:19.830 --> 00:07:21.780 to get anything done. 00:07:21.780 --> 00:07:24.660 Just like firing a single gun requires you to charge up 00:07:24.660 --> 00:07:31.560 that gun, turning on a shield so that you can block enemy fire 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:34.910 needs to be on at the moment the enemy fire is about to hit you, 00:07:34.910 --> 00:07:36.586 I think-- as I recall [INAUDIBLE]. 00:07:36.586 --> 00:07:38.886 But [INAUDIBLE] it just [INAUDIBLE]. 00:07:38.886 --> 00:07:42.599 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] and also because there's so 00:07:42.599 --> 00:07:44.390 many threats [INAUDIBLE] it's very easy to, 00:07:44.390 --> 00:07:47.260 like, accidentally run out of energy or to do things 00:07:47.260 --> 00:07:51.937 where they [INAUDIBLE] or miss if you don't [INAUDIBLE] one 00:07:51.937 --> 00:07:53.680 of the [INAUDIBLE] things is obviously, 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:55.929 like, [INAUDIBLE] fires their gun at like some threat, 00:07:55.929 --> 00:07:58.610 but they fired it a turn before it appears [INAUDIBLE]. 00:07:58.610 --> 00:07:58.840 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 00:07:58.840 --> 00:07:59.550 AUDIENCE: Which is like [INAUDIBLE]. 00:07:59.550 --> 00:08:01.591 PROFESSOR: Yeah, because [INAUDIBLE] has a range, 00:08:01.591 --> 00:08:04.105 if I recall, right? 00:08:04.105 --> 00:08:06.480 An effective range. 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:10.160 So, you're all trying to achieve simultaneous victory. 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:12.650 You're all trying to not die in that game. 00:08:12.650 --> 00:08:14.490 But because you have so little time 00:08:14.490 --> 00:08:16.490 to be able to figure out what the right thing is 00:08:16.490 --> 00:08:18.150 to do, you just [INAUDIBLE]. 00:08:18.150 --> 00:08:25.404 That's not the case, I believe, in Desert Island and Pandemic. 00:08:25.404 --> 00:08:26.820 You have about as much time as you 00:08:26.820 --> 00:08:31.830 like to make a group decision. 00:08:31.830 --> 00:08:34.110 But it's fairly [INAUDIBLE] these sort 00:08:34.110 --> 00:08:38.080 of competing cooperative games, where your only opponent 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:41.760 is the game system the designers really created for you. 00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:45.012 You can of course set difficulty levels in a lot of these games. 00:08:45.012 --> 00:08:46.720 If you're learning it for the first time, 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:48.750 you play it on kind of the easy set up. 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:52.045 And if you're [INAUDIBLE] with all the mechanics of the game, 00:08:52.045 --> 00:08:53.670 you can sort of crank up the difficulty 00:08:53.670 --> 00:08:58.910 by starting the game at a point of [INAUDIBLE]. 00:08:58.910 --> 00:09:02.040 But I think-- anything else that anyone 00:09:02.040 --> 00:09:04.080 noticed from his thoughts about the design 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:04.960 of cooperative games? 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:09.960 AUDIENCE: You mentioned-- 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:13.460 I think it might have been in the video or something else 00:09:13.460 --> 00:09:17.350 [INAUDIBLE] the rule that said that you couldn't show anybody 00:09:17.350 --> 00:09:17.860 else-- 00:09:17.860 --> 00:09:18.660 PROFESSOR: Your hand? 00:09:18.660 --> 00:09:18.950 AUDIENCE: Your hand. 00:09:18.950 --> 00:09:19.300 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 00:09:19.300 --> 00:09:21.633 AUDIENCE: Because that was a very important component of 00:09:21.633 --> 00:09:23.010 [INAUDIBLE]. 00:09:23.010 --> 00:09:24.954 PROFESSOR: Yeah, yeah. 00:09:24.954 --> 00:09:26.870 AUDIENCE: I didn't understand the [INAUDIBLE]. 00:09:26.870 --> 00:09:31.110 PROFESSOR: It's kind of giving you still something to do. 00:09:31.110 --> 00:09:34.490 Because you have information that no one else has until you 00:09:34.490 --> 00:09:36.150 share it, there's still the thing 00:09:36.150 --> 00:09:40.110 that you can do, which is share the information that you got, 00:09:40.110 --> 00:09:46.180 even though it's not necessarily information that you probably-- 00:09:46.180 --> 00:09:47.700 in a game like "Pandemic," it's not 00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:49.100 information you want to hide. 00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:51.670 You want everyone else to know this information 00:09:51.670 --> 00:09:54.360 So there's still a decision to be made even though there's 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:57.750 activity to be done. 00:09:57.750 --> 00:10:00.050 But in a game where time is limited, 00:10:00.050 --> 00:10:02.160 then yes, there becomes a decision of, 00:10:02.160 --> 00:10:04.189 do I want to share this piece of information? 00:10:04.189 --> 00:10:06.522 Because it's taking away time from doing something else. 00:10:09.075 --> 00:10:12.000 I worked on a game with the Education Arcade, 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:16.900 which is a research group here based in [INAUDIBLE]. 00:10:16.900 --> 00:10:19.980 And a long time ago, we made a game 00:10:19.980 --> 00:10:22.170 where it was a location based game. 00:10:22.170 --> 00:10:24.220 So everyone's walking around with GPS 00:10:24.220 --> 00:10:28.340 [INAUDIBLE] smart devices. 00:10:28.340 --> 00:10:33.150 And everyone is trying to investigate the ground water 00:10:33.150 --> 00:10:36.800 contamination, basically, but everyone also 00:10:36.800 --> 00:10:38.900 was one of three different classes 00:10:38.900 --> 00:10:39.730 and they would get different information 00:10:39.730 --> 00:10:41.110 based on which class they were. 00:10:41.110 --> 00:10:46.590 Some of them were, like, [INAUDIBLE] some of them were 00:10:46.590 --> 00:10:47.090 more-- 00:10:47.090 --> 00:10:49.705 I'm trying to remember what-- some of them were biologists. 00:10:49.705 --> 00:10:51.893 Some of them were geologists. 00:10:51.893 --> 00:10:54.017 I think one of one was, like, construction engineer 00:10:54.017 --> 00:10:55.150 or something like that. 00:10:55.150 --> 00:10:58.560 So you knew things about how things 00:10:58.560 --> 00:11:00.200 were built but you didn't necessarily 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:05.030 know much about what type of animals 00:11:05.030 --> 00:11:09.170 will be affected by [INAUDIBLE] 00:11:11.270 --> 00:11:15.230 And so in the game, information that you got were private, 00:11:15.230 --> 00:11:18.750 but it was the kind of thing that you want to share. 00:11:18.750 --> 00:11:21.920 Now, in a location based game, sharing information 00:11:21.920 --> 00:11:24.770 becomes tough because everyone is physically 00:11:24.770 --> 00:11:26.110 spread out over an area. 00:11:26.110 --> 00:11:29.570 This was a game that was played over the entire MIT campus. 00:11:29.570 --> 00:11:31.190 Everyone had walkie talkies. 00:11:31.190 --> 00:11:32.815 But the nice thing about walkie talkies 00:11:32.815 --> 00:11:34.940 is that only one person can talk at a time. 00:11:34.940 --> 00:11:38.360 Otherwise, no one really can make sense of everything. 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:40.970 And it's still kind of the case as you 00:11:40.970 --> 00:11:42.880 try to play the game with cell phones 00:11:42.880 --> 00:11:45.243 because you can only talk to one person at a time 00:11:45.243 --> 00:11:48.260 unless you, like, set up some crazy network. 00:11:48.260 --> 00:11:51.512 Even if you try to do text messaging, that's [INAUDIBLE], 00:11:51.512 --> 00:11:52.012 right? 00:11:54.760 --> 00:11:58.100 So that's one way that you can get people involved 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:00.950 and feel like they're contributing, which is just, 00:12:00.950 --> 00:12:04.900 give everybody little fragments of information that they need 00:12:04.900 --> 00:12:06.522 and then get them to-- 00:12:06.522 --> 00:12:08.480 and then the game becomes more about how do you 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:11.430 go about sharing this information rather than what 00:12:11.430 --> 00:12:15.500 decision you make with the information. 00:12:15.500 --> 00:12:17.570 [INAUDIBLE] once you got all the information, 00:12:17.570 --> 00:12:19.186 there is a decision to be made. 00:12:19.186 --> 00:12:21.060 And in some cases, it feels like a board room 00:12:21.060 --> 00:12:23.660 where everyone's got different ideas 00:12:23.660 --> 00:12:26.120 and trying to encourage you to do it in certain ways. 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:28.520 And that's great, because [INAUDIBLE] 00:12:28.520 --> 00:12:32.290 is weighing the pros and cons of every possible option. 00:12:32.290 --> 00:12:34.880 But in some cases, it's just, like, one person just 00:12:34.880 --> 00:12:37.560 decides to be the decider and is going 00:12:37.560 --> 00:12:41.120 to tell everybody else the decisions and then everyone 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:44.840 else [INAUDIBLE]. 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:48.860 Has anyone played, like, sort of cooperative live action-type 00:12:48.860 --> 00:12:49.900 games? 00:12:49.900 --> 00:12:51.640 [INAUDIBLE]? 00:12:51.640 --> 00:12:54.016 AUDIENCE: Oh, cooperative live action type games. 00:12:54.016 --> 00:13:02.320 I played [INAUDIBLE] where there was, like-- 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:08.210 I mean, a lot of [INAUDIBLE] to do when you're [INAUDIBLE] make 00:13:08.210 --> 00:13:08.963 sure that-- 00:13:08.963 --> 00:13:11.040 you need to get everyone's [INAUDIBLE] 00:13:11.040 --> 00:13:13.890 because that will make people communicate and work 00:13:13.890 --> 00:13:15.120 [INAUDIBLE]. 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:20.372 And oftentimes-- so, for [INAUDIBLE] like, 00:13:20.372 --> 00:13:22.078 I remember [INAUDIBLE] in particular, 00:13:22.078 --> 00:13:26.260 there was [INAUDIBLE] 00:13:26.260 --> 00:13:29.157 You would need, like, [INAUDIBLE] components, which 00:13:29.157 --> 00:13:30.490 you can [INAUDIBLE] on your own. 00:13:30.490 --> 00:13:32.760 You can gather the resources and stuff. 00:13:32.760 --> 00:13:36.420 And then you needed to successfully [INAUDIBLE] 00:13:36.420 --> 00:13:39.140 in the blank, Hangman or Pictionary or something 00:13:39.140 --> 00:13:42.080 that's describing [INAUDIBLE] 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:45.700 And it was nice to have this cooperation [INAUDIBLE] 00:13:45.700 --> 00:13:47.412 cooperation is like, did someone want 00:13:47.412 --> 00:13:50.810 to, like, [INAUDIBLE] trying to describe [INAUDIBLE] 00:13:50.810 --> 00:13:51.620 face to someone. 00:13:51.620 --> 00:13:53.960 And it was also [INAUDIBLE] like, 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:55.300 share a little bit about them. 00:13:55.300 --> 00:13:57.425 It also was interesting is that oftentimes, someone 00:13:57.425 --> 00:13:59.340 says, does anyone want to, like, when 00:13:59.340 --> 00:14:02.220 you're doing Pictionary, trying to describe the word 00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:02.720 destruction. 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:09.520 It's like [INAUDIBLE] people talk about your research 00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:10.020 after that. 00:14:10.020 --> 00:14:11.020 PROFESSOR: Right, right. 00:14:11.020 --> 00:14:12.740 Of course, yeah. 00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:13.770 Yeah. 00:14:13.770 --> 00:14:16.400 So I think what you're describing 00:14:16.400 --> 00:14:19.080 is, like, the live action role playing [INAUDIBLE]. 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:20.788 PROFESSOR: Yeah, live action [INAUDIBLE]. 00:14:20.788 --> 00:14:21.727 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 00:14:21.727 --> 00:14:23.560 But a lot of live action role playing games, 00:14:23.560 --> 00:14:25.476 even though you may be cooperative on that one 00:14:25.476 --> 00:14:28.340 activity, you don't know what the motive 00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:31.460 of every single person in that room is. 00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:38.010 Whereas in non-LARP type games but that are played out in live 00:14:38.010 --> 00:14:38.510 action-- 00:14:38.510 --> 00:14:41.510 say, training simulations, for instance-- 00:14:41.510 --> 00:14:43.844 often, everyone's actually on the same team. 00:14:43.844 --> 00:14:45.510 Everyone is very, very clear [INAUDIBLE] 00:14:45.510 --> 00:14:49.550 working toward a common goal, just given different roles. 00:14:49.550 --> 00:14:54.250 So, [INAUDIBLE] I trained a couple of years in the Army 00:14:54.250 --> 00:14:57.650 and we had a lot of live action training simulations 00:14:57.650 --> 00:15:00.040 where, yeah, everyone's on the same team 00:15:00.040 --> 00:15:02.690 and there are instructors out there 00:15:02.690 --> 00:15:04.540 trying to make your life difficult, sure. 00:15:04.540 --> 00:15:07.310 But everybody that you're actually working with 00:15:07.310 --> 00:15:12.140 is communicating and trying to do the best job that they 00:15:12.140 --> 00:15:13.450 can towards the common goal. 00:15:16.150 --> 00:15:19.470 Has anyone gone through anything like a sort 00:15:19.470 --> 00:15:21.100 of simulated exercise or anything-- 00:15:21.100 --> 00:15:25.010 either an evaluation or-- you know, like an emergency 00:15:25.010 --> 00:15:26.970 evacuation? 00:15:26.970 --> 00:15:28.879 AUDIENCE: Yeah, [INAUDIBLE] fire drills. 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:30.170 PROFESSOR: We have fire drills. 00:15:30.170 --> 00:15:31.660 All right, that's a great insight. 00:15:31.660 --> 00:15:33.409 Everybody wants to get out of the building 00:15:33.409 --> 00:15:36.420 alive without falling all over, sure. 00:15:36.420 --> 00:15:39.854 And that's a great example, yes. 00:15:39.854 --> 00:15:45.678 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] in a lot of the, like, scenarios 00:15:45.678 --> 00:15:49.380 that [INAUDIBLE] you and your team [INAUDIBLE] even a company 00:15:49.380 --> 00:15:51.270 trying to design this product and you 00:15:51.270 --> 00:15:52.641 had all these challenges. 00:15:52.641 --> 00:15:59.866 And it was primarily intended to be cooperative [INAUDIBLE] 00:15:59.866 --> 00:16:05.350 an element of, like, [INAUDIBLE] other team [INAUDIBLE] 00:16:05.350 --> 00:16:08.750 PROFESSOR: Do you-- so you compete with the other teams 00:16:08.750 --> 00:16:09.620 for the-- 00:16:09.620 --> 00:16:11.220 do you feel like you're in competition 00:16:11.220 --> 00:16:15.470 with the other teams while you are basing your decisions? 00:16:15.470 --> 00:16:17.220 Or is it really just like right at the end 00:16:17.220 --> 00:16:19.861 when you present everything? 00:16:19.861 --> 00:16:21.277 AUDIENCE: Mostly right at the end, 00:16:21.277 --> 00:16:24.118 but there were certaion ones where, you know, 00:16:24.118 --> 00:16:27.090 you had like a shop and there were 00:16:27.090 --> 00:16:29.601 pieces you could get while you were waiting in line to get 00:16:29.601 --> 00:16:30.523 different pieces. 00:16:30.523 --> 00:16:32.909 Like, you were kind of looking at what 00:16:32.909 --> 00:16:34.200 all the other groups are doing. 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:35.362 PROFESSOR: OK 00:16:35.362 --> 00:16:37.820 AUDIENCE: And part of it was because it was the same groups 00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:38.820 all semester. 00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:46.050 Even if there wasn't any [INAUDIBLE] competition 00:16:46.050 --> 00:16:48.520 between groups at first, but because 00:16:48.520 --> 00:16:50.530 over the entire semester, you were 00:16:50.530 --> 00:16:51.654 working with the same team. 00:16:51.654 --> 00:16:55.744 You kind of develop a [INAUDIBLE] 00:16:55.744 --> 00:16:57.910 PROFESSOR: Yes, yes, I've been in similar exercises, 00:16:57.910 --> 00:16:59.960 mostly in school as well. 00:16:59.960 --> 00:17:02.270 AUDIENCE: Could this go as simple as just playing 00:17:02.270 --> 00:17:04.210 Lava when you're, like, three years old 00:17:04.210 --> 00:17:05.935 and you can't thouch the ground, and you 00:17:05.935 --> 00:17:07.150 get from one end of the room to the other 00:17:07.150 --> 00:17:08.733 without ever touching the ground, jump 00:17:08.733 --> 00:17:10.854 pillar to pillar or something? 00:17:10.854 --> 00:17:12.020 PROFESSOR: Well, let me see. 00:17:12.020 --> 00:17:14.060 I guess [INAUDIBLE] cooperative, I guess. 00:17:14.060 --> 00:17:17.578 There's player versus gravity, pretty much. 00:17:21.040 --> 00:17:24.250 And yeah, I mean, it depends on whether your goal 00:17:24.250 --> 00:17:26.319 is to be the last person standing, in which it 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:27.720 does become a competitive game. 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:29.720 AUDIENCE: Sure, but it was one where you're just 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:30.681 trying to get from one side of the room 00:17:30.681 --> 00:17:32.170 to the other, something like that. 00:17:32.170 --> 00:17:32.526 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 00:17:32.526 --> 00:17:34.109 AUDIENCE: And you're working together. 00:17:34.109 --> 00:17:36.190 PROFESSOR: Yeah, if you're all working together, 00:17:36.190 --> 00:17:39.490 I would say that is a fairly cooperative game 00:17:39.490 --> 00:17:41.110 and the rules are fairly simple. 00:17:41.110 --> 00:17:45.970 Just don't fall off pillows which are unstable. 00:17:45.970 --> 00:17:49.514 And that's very different from having different roles. 00:17:49.514 --> 00:17:50.680 Everybody has the same role. 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.440 Everybody is just put in a situation where 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:55.700 they can't accomplish much on their own 00:17:55.700 --> 00:17:57.564 but you can do quite a lot if they pull-- 00:17:57.564 --> 00:17:59.272 AUDIENCE: I always played with my sister, 00:17:59.272 --> 00:18:01.789 and we kind of had different roles, because I 00:18:01.789 --> 00:18:03.080 was three years older than her. 00:18:03.080 --> 00:18:05.180 When we were five years old, I could jump [INAUDIBLE] 00:18:05.180 --> 00:18:06.050 further than her, right? 00:18:06.050 --> 00:18:06.473 PROFESSOR: OK. 00:18:06.473 --> 00:18:08.230 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] put up different roles 00:18:08.230 --> 00:18:09.022 there a little bit. 00:18:09.022 --> 00:18:11.438 PROFESSOR: I mean, she also has a lower center of gravity, 00:18:11.438 --> 00:18:12.280 I'm suggesting then? 00:18:12.280 --> 00:18:15.325 AUDIENCE: Sure, she could also barely walk. 00:18:19.530 --> 00:18:21.970 PROFESSOR: So you're playing with your sister. 00:18:24.770 --> 00:18:29.150 So, it's kind of interesting. 00:18:29.150 --> 00:18:31.960 I don't actually like a lot of creativity competitions 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:35.350 where they put teams against each other. 00:18:35.350 --> 00:18:39.200 I understand that it does get people enthusiastic and engaged 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.370 and [INAUDIBLE] they want to be able to do the best. 00:18:42.370 --> 00:18:44.980 But it discourages a lot of information sharing, 00:18:44.980 --> 00:18:48.220 which could actually be better for learning in the process. 00:18:48.220 --> 00:18:52.180 So when we were [INAUDIBLE], for instance, 00:18:52.180 --> 00:18:57.620 a lot of [INAUDIBLE] run by colleges will give out awards. 00:18:57.620 --> 00:19:01.150 They'll quite simply have prizes for people 00:19:01.150 --> 00:19:04.310 who win maximum applause or something like that. 00:19:04.310 --> 00:19:09.055 I think we do give verbal [INAUDIBLE]. 00:19:09.055 --> 00:19:11.790 Has anybody ever done, like, [INAUDIBLE] awards? 00:19:11.790 --> 00:19:13.946 AUDIENCE: No, I've never done any awards. 00:19:13.946 --> 00:19:18.235 When We're doing [INAUDIBLE] the joy of engagement 00:19:18.235 --> 00:19:19.830 is being able to share [INAUDIBLE] 00:19:19.830 --> 00:19:23.005 and making sure people share throughout [INAUDIBLE] 00:19:23.005 --> 00:19:25.380 PROFESSOR: And those are usually the shout outs that give 00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:26.250 [INAUDIBLE]. 00:19:26.250 --> 00:19:28.090 These are the people who really helped 00:19:28.090 --> 00:19:32.490 as a team, the people who were clearly a benefit to more 00:19:32.490 --> 00:19:34.202 than just one project. 00:19:34.202 --> 00:19:35.860 We will do those kind of shout outs 00:19:35.860 --> 00:19:40.040 because in learning situations [INAUDIBLE] 00:19:40.040 --> 00:19:42.210 For competitive situations where you 00:19:42.210 --> 00:19:46.000 don't expect to have a lot of information sharing-- 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:50.720 say, a school versus a school competition. 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:51.439 It could be math. 00:19:51.439 --> 00:19:52.230 It could be sports. 00:19:52.230 --> 00:19:56.070 It could be-- we're working on one right now, which 00:19:56.070 --> 00:19:59.850 is a [INAUDIBLE] competition, a satellite programming thing. 00:19:59.850 --> 00:20:02.054 Some of you might have seen the email 00:20:02.054 --> 00:20:04.390 about that, where a lot of the schools that 00:20:04.390 --> 00:20:06.510 are working together are geographically 00:20:06.510 --> 00:20:08.460 separated by different countries, 00:20:08.460 --> 00:20:10.450 probably speaking different languages. 00:20:10.450 --> 00:20:13.790 So there may not be terribly much information 00:20:13.790 --> 00:20:14.850 sharing to begin with. 00:20:14.850 --> 00:20:17.700 So it makes sense that they won't be sharing information 00:20:17.700 --> 00:20:21.180 with people that are geographically close to them. 00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:24.570 So it's OK to sort of put them in competition 00:20:24.570 --> 00:20:27.090 with each other while expecting they're going to cooperate 00:20:27.090 --> 00:20:29.690 entirely within their own team. 00:20:29.690 --> 00:20:32.000 But there's a deep wrinkle to that one, which 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.260 is when it gets to the final rounds, 00:20:35.260 --> 00:20:37.620 three schools are put together and one school 00:20:37.620 --> 00:20:40.890 is always geographically separated from the other one. 00:20:40.890 --> 00:20:43.680 And that gives students an experience 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:46.900 of what it's like to actually work on the state, right? 00:20:46.900 --> 00:20:50.730 Because you are working with different companies which 00:20:50.730 --> 00:20:55.242 are writing code to all run on the same machine. 00:20:55.242 --> 00:20:58.080 But-- and all trying to accomplish different 00:20:58.080 --> 00:21:00.570 [INAUDIBLE] problems that they're given [INAUDIBLE] 00:21:00.570 --> 00:21:03.288 so difficult that one school-- 00:21:03.288 --> 00:21:06.180 one school could probably do a mediocre job on it, 00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:08.455 but you need the resources of three schools 00:21:08.455 --> 00:21:09.830 and all the kids in three schools 00:21:09.830 --> 00:21:13.530 to be able to solve this particular space problem. 00:21:13.530 --> 00:21:16.710 So you need to communicate and you need to share. 00:21:16.710 --> 00:21:21.780 And that's an interesting [INAUDIBLE] of the game 00:21:21.780 --> 00:21:23.670 where, again, it's all about what are 00:21:23.670 --> 00:21:25.320 the limits of communication? 00:21:25.320 --> 00:21:27.000 We talk about time. 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.490 We talk about physical distance being a limit of communication. 00:21:30.490 --> 00:21:32.100 What about things like language? 00:21:32.100 --> 00:21:34.340 About things like time zones? 00:21:37.320 --> 00:21:41.660 All right, so any of the games that you are making, 00:21:41.660 --> 00:21:46.150 cooperative games, I think are also competitive in a way? 00:21:46.150 --> 00:21:52.106 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] the end goal is [INAUDIBLE] I mean-- 00:21:52.106 --> 00:21:53.064 PROFESSOR: Yeah, it's-- 00:21:53.064 --> 00:21:56.070 AUDIENCE: In the end, it's like a competitive thing, 00:21:56.070 --> 00:21:59.952 but to achieve the most you can, it would be be cooperative. 00:21:59.952 --> 00:22:01.995 PROFESSOR: OK, is this the base [INAUDIBLE] one? 00:22:01.995 --> 00:22:02.494 No. 00:22:02.494 --> 00:22:04.540 [INAUDIBLE] 00:22:04.540 --> 00:22:05.372 AUDIENCE: No. 00:22:05.372 --> 00:22:05.872 Well, yes. 00:22:05.872 --> 00:22:07.913 I was going to say, we're definitely cooperative. 00:22:07.913 --> 00:22:10.249 [INAUDIBLE] well, two teams, I guess. 00:22:10.249 --> 00:22:11.790 AUDIENCE: Two versus one [INAUDIBLE]. 00:22:11.790 --> 00:22:12.415 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:22:12.415 --> 00:22:14.340 PROFESSOR: Oh, it's two competitive teams. 00:22:14.340 --> 00:22:15.324 AUDIENCE: Yes. 00:22:15.324 --> 00:22:16.740 PROFESSOR: So you have cooperation 00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:19.220 within the team and competition between teams. 00:22:19.220 --> 00:22:21.642 And which game was the one that [INAUDIBLE] 00:22:21.642 --> 00:22:23.530 AUDIENCE: The ship captain one. 00:22:23.530 --> 00:22:24.360 PROFESSOR: The ship captain one, right, right, 00:22:24.360 --> 00:22:25.984 where [INAUDIBLE] trying to [INAUDIBLE] 00:22:25.984 --> 00:22:29.440 put all of this information together, right. 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:33.330 So, is there anything from Matt's presentation 00:22:33.330 --> 00:22:43.350 that you might want to try out in a game? 00:22:43.350 --> 00:22:48.924 AUDIENCE: I really like the idea small leveling, kind of. 00:22:48.924 --> 00:22:51.960 So you said he had three-- he gave the flow chart, 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:53.315 which I really like. 00:22:53.315 --> 00:22:53.800 PROFESSOR: Right, right, right. 00:22:53.800 --> 00:22:54.466 AUDIENCE: Right? 00:22:54.466 --> 00:22:56.950 So you want to make it balanced between players' 00:22:56.950 --> 00:22:59.280 skill and [INAUDIBLE]. 00:22:59.280 --> 00:23:02.247 And if there's too much [INAUDIBLE] players' skills, 00:23:02.247 --> 00:23:03.221 you have anxiety. 00:23:03.221 --> 00:23:05.060 And if there's too much player skill 00:23:05.060 --> 00:23:07.830 and too little [INAUDIBLE], you get boredom. 00:23:07.830 --> 00:23:11.090 So we have like a basic version that you can just start with. 00:23:11.090 --> 00:23:12.847 And then if you're a really good gamer, 00:23:12.847 --> 00:23:15.430 you might move onto the normal version or the advanced version 00:23:15.430 --> 00:23:17.039 really quickly. 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:19.580 And first, I was like, oh, this is really complicated, right? 00:23:19.580 --> 00:23:20.130 Three versions of the game. 00:23:20.130 --> 00:23:22.751 Then, you play [INAUDIBLE] and you just add one [INAUDIBLE] 00:23:22.751 --> 00:23:23.250 to that. 00:23:23.250 --> 00:23:25.900 And that's [INAUDIBLE] changes [INAUDIBLE]. 00:23:25.900 --> 00:23:28.180 PROFESSOR: And that's another-- 00:23:28.180 --> 00:23:32.470 in Forbidden Island, I believe the only change in difficulty 00:23:32.470 --> 00:23:35.000 is that you start-- 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.120 the way [INAUDIBLE] works is that you 00:23:37.120 --> 00:23:39.760 are on an island that's slowly sinking into the water. 00:23:39.760 --> 00:23:41.590 And [? there's a ?] water level marker. 00:23:41.590 --> 00:23:45.310 So by increasing difficulty, I believe 00:23:45.310 --> 00:23:47.830 you just start at a higher level of water. 00:23:47.830 --> 00:23:50.530 And more stuff is submerged at the beginning of the game. 00:23:50.530 --> 00:23:52.480 But the rules don't change. 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:54.490 And if you're going to try to do something 00:23:54.490 --> 00:23:56.500 like that in your game, I would certainly 00:23:56.500 --> 00:23:59.500 encourage you to think of difficulty levels in that way. 00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:02.770 Don't give us, like, here are the simple set 00:24:02.770 --> 00:24:06.250 of rules for simple players and the advanced 00:24:06.250 --> 00:24:08.190 set of rules for players. 00:24:08.190 --> 00:24:14.470 Those don't change things like just the starting conditions 00:24:14.470 --> 00:24:17.930 so that I-- 00:24:17.930 --> 00:24:20.460 I wouldn't encourage you to change, like, 00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:22.360 individual variables in your game 00:24:22.360 --> 00:24:25.140 because that might be too complicated to get across. 00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:26.670 But things like setup-- 00:24:26.670 --> 00:24:27.170 that's, OK. 00:24:27.170 --> 00:24:29.020 Once you've got the whole game set up 00:24:29.020 --> 00:24:30.539 at the correct difficult level. 00:24:30.539 --> 00:24:32.830 Don't have to worry about the differences between setup 00:24:32.830 --> 00:24:35.470 for easy or setup for hard. 00:24:35.470 --> 00:24:37.420 Giving people extra options, for instance, 00:24:37.420 --> 00:24:39.700 by giving them extra cards or something like that 00:24:39.700 --> 00:24:42.670 could also be a good way to be able to [INAUDIBLE] 00:24:42.670 --> 00:24:45.900 change the level of difficulty throughout the game. 00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:46.702 That's a good idea. 00:24:50.995 --> 00:24:55.470 [INAUDIBLE] there's something I was 00:24:55.470 --> 00:24:57.220 talking about cooperative and competitive. 00:24:57.220 --> 00:24:59.850 He just talks a lot about what it 00:24:59.850 --> 00:25:02.810 was like to design his first board game. 00:25:02.810 --> 00:25:06.780 I believe he said that that was his first board game. 00:25:06.780 --> 00:25:09.540 [INAUDIBLE] his first published board game [INAUDIBLE]. 00:25:09.540 --> 00:25:11.830 AUDIENCE: First one was [INAUDIBLE] Fish and Chips. 00:25:11.830 --> 00:25:12.370 PROFESSOR: Oh, yeah. 00:25:12.370 --> 00:25:13.411 Oh right, Fish and Chips. 00:25:13.411 --> 00:25:14.719 That's right. 00:25:14.719 --> 00:25:15.510 AUDIENCE: Oh, wait. 00:25:15.510 --> 00:25:16.730 I just got that joke. 00:25:16.730 --> 00:25:17.230 Wow. 00:25:20.170 --> 00:25:26.370 PROFESSOR: So-- but anyone observe or hear 00:25:26.370 --> 00:25:28.250 anything interesting from that one? 00:25:28.250 --> 00:25:29.960 From the [INAUDIBLE] talking outside 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:32.490 of the cooperative and competitive [INAUDIBLE] 00:25:32.490 --> 00:25:33.490 cooperative game design? 00:25:38.693 --> 00:25:42.680 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] do you just mean something 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:43.830 interesting about the talk? 00:25:43.830 --> 00:25:45.999 PROFESSOR: Yeah, anything else that was interesting. 00:25:45.999 --> 00:25:47.790 I've been asking you questions specifically 00:25:47.790 --> 00:25:51.222 on his thoughts on cooperative games like [INAUDIBLE]. 00:25:51.222 --> 00:25:53.770 But that's only part of the talk. 00:25:53.770 --> 00:25:54.910 That's not his whole talk. 00:25:54.910 --> 00:25:57.800 So I was just wondering if anyone 00:25:57.800 --> 00:25:59.084 noticed anything interesting. 00:25:59.084 --> 00:26:02.408 AUDIENCE: I think [INAUDIBLE] he mentioned 00:26:02.408 --> 00:26:04.557 Ameritrash [INAUDIBLE] games. 00:26:04.557 --> 00:26:05.390 PROFESSOR: Ah, yeah. 00:26:05.390 --> 00:26:07.014 AUDIENCE: Something I haven't herad of. 00:26:07.014 --> 00:26:08.620 And then when I looked online, it 00:26:08.620 --> 00:26:13.342 seems to be either something that has made it [INAUDIBLE], 00:26:13.342 --> 00:26:13.850 sort of? 00:26:13.850 --> 00:26:19.220 PROFESSOR: It's one of those almost invented internet forum 00:26:19.220 --> 00:26:20.720 arguments. 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:22.184 But it's one that-- 00:26:22.184 --> 00:26:24.350 I mean, it's like the [INAUDIBLE] of the [INAUDIBLE] 00:26:24.350 --> 00:26:26.570 in game design. 00:26:26.570 --> 00:26:28.270 That's another one where-- 00:26:28.270 --> 00:26:30.870 that's the sort of thing that you see now just 00:26:30.870 --> 00:26:33.510 to make people roll [INAUDIBLE] 00:26:33.510 --> 00:26:37.560 But back in the '90s, I guess, it was a bigger thing. 00:26:37.560 --> 00:26:40.530 It was like, are games about the systems 00:26:40.530 --> 00:26:42.390 or are games about the stories? 00:26:42.390 --> 00:26:44.230 The whole thing was just that and it 00:26:44.230 --> 00:26:48.240 was people sort of arguing past each other-- not actually 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:50.930 waiting to talk to each other, just wanted to shout 00:26:50.930 --> 00:26:52.310 at each other about it. 00:26:52.310 --> 00:26:56.820 And Ameritrash and Euro games are one of those things purely, 00:26:56.820 --> 00:26:59.770 from the description of Ameritrash, 00:26:59.770 --> 00:27:03.236 you can sort of expect that the people who like Euro games 00:27:03.236 --> 00:27:05.930 gave it that term. 00:27:05.930 --> 00:27:08.920 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] argument, because the Ameritrash games 00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:11.450 were-- 00:27:11.450 --> 00:27:13.950 the big problem with the Ameritrash games 00:27:13.950 --> 00:27:15.716 were the Milton-Bradley Gamemakers games. 00:27:15.716 --> 00:27:18.090 I think they were called Gamemakers or Game Masters 00:27:18.090 --> 00:27:19.790 series in the mid '80s. 00:27:19.790 --> 00:27:23.380 Like [INAUDIBLE] 00:27:23.380 --> 00:27:25.300 There's another [INAUDIBLE] one. 00:27:25.300 --> 00:27:28.330 But games with a board and lots of little plastic pieces 00:27:28.330 --> 00:27:31.440 where there's a lot of, like, details 00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:35.110 given to the [INAUDIBLE] molding on the pieces rather 00:27:35.110 --> 00:27:37.356 than the system. 00:27:37.356 --> 00:27:40.590 Like, that's where it was thought the money was spent. 00:27:40.590 --> 00:27:45.500 Where a Euro game is, well, it's little wooden cubes, and not 00:27:45.500 --> 00:27:46.980 much theme going on. 00:27:46.980 --> 00:27:51.550 And so the system has more the amount 00:27:51.550 --> 00:27:54.080 of attention and detail [INAUDIBLE] 00:27:54.080 --> 00:27:56.240 PROFESSOR: There is a lower cost version 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:59.095 that is along those same lines, because Ameritrash 00:27:59.095 --> 00:28:01.490 is a lot about presentation, right? 00:28:01.490 --> 00:28:07.160 This is just-- so, a lot of-- 00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:08.510 I tried to think. 00:28:08.510 --> 00:28:09.330 Munchkin? 00:28:09.330 --> 00:28:10.670 Anyone play Munchkin? 00:28:10.670 --> 00:28:11.240 Yeah, OK. 00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:13.440 So, you know, this card game about sort 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:18.040 of dungeon crawling, being really bad role playing gamers. 00:28:18.040 --> 00:28:19.625 And it's all about the art. 00:28:19.625 --> 00:28:22.060 It's all about funny text that they've written. 00:28:22.060 --> 00:28:24.530 It's not necessarily about cool-looking pieces, 00:28:24.530 --> 00:28:27.800 but it's about cool looking cards that you can laugh with, 00:28:27.800 --> 00:28:29.570 you know, while you're playing the game. 00:28:29.570 --> 00:28:32.540 But a game [INAUDIBLE] itself, [INAUDIBLE] actually 00:28:32.540 --> 00:28:33.777 [INAUDIBLE] 00:28:33.777 --> 00:28:36.699 AUDIENCE: I might call Magic Ameritrash. 00:28:36.699 --> 00:28:38.480 PROFESSOR: And Magic-- the Gathering sort 00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:40.146 of trades [INAUDIBLE] same sort of thing 00:28:40.146 --> 00:28:41.990 as like [INAUDIBLE] layered complexity 00:28:41.990 --> 00:28:44.960 on top of complexity [INAUDIBLE] very little elegance 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:46.190 to the [? system, ?] right? 00:28:46.190 --> 00:28:47.990 But every once in a while, they sort it out 00:28:47.990 --> 00:28:50.156 and then it becomes a pretty elegant system and they 00:28:50.156 --> 00:28:52.490 then keep adding things on top of it. 00:28:52.490 --> 00:28:55.044 That's because that's how their business model works. 00:28:55.044 --> 00:28:57.454 AUDIENCE: So I guess a big question about [INAUDIBLE]. 00:28:57.454 --> 00:29:00.105 How is Ameritrash different from the theme games 00:29:00.105 --> 00:29:02.290 like Monopoly [INAUDIBLE]? 00:29:02.290 --> 00:29:03.610 PROFESSOR: Not that different. 00:29:03.610 --> 00:29:06.550 It's a more derogatory term, but I 00:29:06.550 --> 00:29:08.860 think when it comes to the stuff that's 00:29:08.860 --> 00:29:17.080 really old like "Monopoly," there's 00:29:17.080 --> 00:29:20.860 a limited level of presentation they could possibly achieve 00:29:20.860 --> 00:29:22.810 with traditional manufacturing. 00:29:22.810 --> 00:29:26.410 And by the time the [INAUDIBLE] term Ameritrash had shown up, 00:29:26.410 --> 00:29:29.920 games like Monopoly and Clue and all that 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:33.960 had already been shrunk down into budget versions. 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:36.800 You know, it's like, you're no longer getting metal pieces. 00:29:36.800 --> 00:29:39.810 You're getting little plastic pieces 00:29:39.810 --> 00:29:45.930 that barely look like the dog or the hat they're supposed to be. 00:29:45.930 --> 00:29:47.350 Games like "Battleship" where it's 00:29:47.350 --> 00:29:49.420 like, the whole idea is that it's not really, 00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:51.432 like, the "Battleship" kit looks nice. 00:29:51.432 --> 00:29:53.890 It's just like this small part of [INAUDIBLE] manufacturing 00:29:53.890 --> 00:29:55.780 and people grew up playing Battleship. 00:29:55.780 --> 00:29:58.450 And those games are being sold on a completely different 00:29:58.450 --> 00:29:59.080 premise. 00:29:59.080 --> 00:30:00.830 Those games are primarily nostalgia games. 00:30:00.830 --> 00:30:04.280 Those games are games that you bought because you played them 00:30:04.280 --> 00:30:05.360 at one point in time. 00:30:05.360 --> 00:30:07.720 But I think Ameritrash was mostly 00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:09.450 used to brand a certain kind of game 00:30:09.450 --> 00:30:11.050 that you'll be buying because you want 00:30:11.050 --> 00:30:12.640 to play for the first time-- 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:18.000 like "Munchkin" that you buy to play with a bunch of friends, 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.670 often published by companies that either had a war gaming 00:30:21.670 --> 00:30:25.840 background or a role playing book 00:30:25.840 --> 00:30:29.830 kind of background like Steve Jackson, for instance. 00:30:29.830 --> 00:30:35.450 Because they're used-- actually I believe [INAUDIBLE]. 00:30:35.450 --> 00:30:38.020 Actually, I'm not so sure if this came up in class. 00:30:38.020 --> 00:30:41.980 This is something that I remember hearing recently. 00:30:41.980 --> 00:30:44.831 The idea of the game writer, you know-- 00:30:44.831 --> 00:30:46.214 what is [INAUDIBLE]? 00:30:46.214 --> 00:30:49.910 AUDIENCE: Yeah, Mack was talking about-- 00:30:49.910 --> 00:30:52.410 writer verses inventor versus designer. 00:30:52.410 --> 00:30:55.830 PROFESSOR: Right, so the idea is that games were things 00:30:55.830 --> 00:30:59.640 that you would write comes out from the role playing game 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:04.360 industry, where their primary product was books. 00:31:04.360 --> 00:31:07.120 And sure, books included descriptions of systems, 00:31:07.120 --> 00:31:09.747 but [INAUDIBLE] prose is your tool 00:31:09.747 --> 00:31:11.080 to be able to get things across. 00:31:11.080 --> 00:31:13.330 [INAUDIBLE] to try to use prose on the things that prose is 00:31:13.330 --> 00:31:13.970 good at-- 00:31:13.970 --> 00:31:19.614 on things like creating atmosphere, giving you 00:31:19.614 --> 00:31:21.030 exclusive detail about the setting 00:31:21.030 --> 00:31:26.265 a whole world or characters, and things like that. 00:31:26.265 --> 00:31:31.504 Whereas the Euro games, the Euro games 00:31:31.504 --> 00:31:35.020 were originally designed for quite a different market 00:31:35.020 --> 00:31:37.330 from the role playing. 00:31:37.330 --> 00:31:39.215 Traditionally, role playing games 00:31:39.215 --> 00:31:41.200 are designed for enthusiasts. 00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:43.730 Euro games are designed for Christmas presents. 00:31:43.730 --> 00:31:45.460 Very specifically, they're designed 00:31:45.460 --> 00:31:50.155 to sell lots and lots and lots of copies at Christmas 00:31:50.155 --> 00:31:51.590 to families. 00:31:51.590 --> 00:31:53.500 So, not only had the systems have 00:31:53.500 --> 00:31:56.360 to be simple enough for kids to be able to learn, 00:31:56.360 --> 00:31:58.690 but also advanced enough for adults 00:31:58.690 --> 00:32:01.012 to be able to want to play them and give them away 00:32:01.012 --> 00:32:04.770 as gifts to other people. 00:32:04.770 --> 00:32:09.000 And so that's a lot of attention paid to, like, simple rules, 00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:12.550 very, very complex interactions. 00:32:12.550 --> 00:32:19.200 And I don't know what the push towards the simplicity 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:21.820 of [INAUDIBLE], sort of the abstraction of, like, 00:32:21.820 --> 00:32:25.852 cubes and circles and maybe [INAUDIBLE] like the are, like, 00:32:25.852 --> 00:32:26.352 [INAUDIBLE] 00:32:26.352 --> 00:32:28.760 AUDIENCE: A lot of it is [INAUDIBLE] factory [INAUDIBLE] 00:32:28.760 --> 00:32:30.406 the one factory that makes it all. 00:32:30.406 --> 00:32:31.530 PROFESSOR: [INAUDIBLE] one? 00:32:31.530 --> 00:32:35.690 AUDIENCE: There's one factory in Germany that made most of them. 00:32:35.690 --> 00:32:38.250 They don't make them in China, those games. 00:32:38.250 --> 00:32:39.290 PROFESSOR: OK. 00:32:39.290 --> 00:32:41.230 So that's economy of scale there, I guess. 00:32:41.230 --> 00:32:43.222 [INAUDIBLE] easier to make than anything else? 00:32:43.222 --> 00:32:45.097 AUDIENCE: So, when it comes to-- like I said, 00:32:45.097 --> 00:32:47.795 Euro games are for families and Christmas presents and stuff? 00:32:47.795 --> 00:32:49.876 That feels kind of weird to me because I'd 00:32:49.876 --> 00:32:52.970 expect for children to care a lot about the presentation 00:32:52.970 --> 00:32:55.360 of the game. 00:32:55.360 --> 00:33:00.640 So, how would you reconcile that, I guess? 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.060 PROFESSOR: I don't know much about that social dynamics 00:33:04.060 --> 00:33:05.520 of the Euro game family. 00:33:05.520 --> 00:33:08.150 Who makes the call of what game they're going to play, right? 00:33:08.150 --> 00:33:12.080 Is it the kids or is it the parents? 00:33:12.080 --> 00:33:15.269 I certainly grew up in a family where the parents would say, 00:33:15.269 --> 00:33:16.560 this is what we're playing now. 00:33:16.560 --> 00:33:18.480 We are playing "Scrabble" because mom 00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.168 likes "Scrabble" and mom will destroy all of us 00:33:21.168 --> 00:33:22.632 at "Scrabble". 00:33:25.504 --> 00:33:27.170 So I don't know if that's the same thing 00:33:27.170 --> 00:33:28.970 in European families. 00:33:28.970 --> 00:33:31.476 AUDIENCE: And so we had a professor 00:33:31.476 --> 00:33:34.535 come in who talked about this a couple years ago 00:33:34.535 --> 00:33:36.660 where one thing that happened, at least in Germany, 00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:41.005 is there is a conference called [INAUDIBLE] Fair? 00:33:41.005 --> 00:33:41.947 PROFESSOR: Trade Fair. 00:33:41.947 --> 00:33:43.670 AUDIENCE: Trade Fair. 00:33:43.670 --> 00:33:46.100 [INAUDIBLE] fair happened in Germany. 00:33:46.100 --> 00:33:48.420 Thousands upon thousands of people in Germany 00:33:48.420 --> 00:33:53.410 go to that fair to play the new games before they're published. 00:33:53.410 --> 00:33:55.740 And [INAUDIBLE] fairs, they give this spiel [INAUDIBLE] 00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:57.310 awards, the game of the year awards, 00:33:57.310 --> 00:33:58.990 which then if you get that award, 00:33:58.990 --> 00:34:01.559 they'll sell a [INAUDIBLE] 00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:03.600 PROFESSOR: Because every newspaper will cover it. 00:34:03.600 --> 00:34:05.280 AUDIENCE: All the newspapers are going to cover it. 00:34:05.280 --> 00:34:07.280 But those families were going to go there, play those games. 00:34:07.280 --> 00:34:09.405 The kids are going to be interested in those games. 00:34:09.405 --> 00:34:12.780 Then, when Christmas time comes around, the game they get 00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:15.281 is going to be the game that won the [INAUDIBLE] award, 00:34:15.281 --> 00:34:17.572 not necessarily the game they played at the convention. 00:34:17.572 --> 00:34:19.960 But that's the game that got the award. 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:21.409 Everybody bought it that year. 00:34:21.409 --> 00:34:23.574 And the next year at flea markets, 00:34:23.574 --> 00:34:27.900 that game is all over the place [INAUDIBLE] So 00:34:27.900 --> 00:34:29.650 there's a little-- 00:34:29.650 --> 00:34:32.887 it's a very different kind of consumption economy going on 00:34:32.887 --> 00:34:33.387 over there. 00:34:33.387 --> 00:34:35.446 But here, it's a hobby market. 00:34:35.446 --> 00:34:37.323 Here, it's the [INAUDIBLE] stores. 00:34:37.323 --> 00:34:39.370 It's not necessarily family oriented 00:34:39.370 --> 00:34:42.136 at all or family [INAUDIBLE] included in a particular kind 00:34:42.136 --> 00:34:43.760 of family organization. 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:46.084 PROFESSOR: So they're like toy [INAUDIBLE] in the US, 00:34:46.084 --> 00:34:48.270 then, like Tickle Me Elmo and Furby. 00:34:48.270 --> 00:34:50.219 AUDIENCE: Yeah, the toy fairs are-- 00:34:50.219 --> 00:34:54.840 yeah, in the US, they're inventors, products from China 00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:59.800 and again, one thing gets bought and one thing is sold 00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:02.370 and everybody wants that one thing every single year. 00:35:02.370 --> 00:35:04.828 PROFESSOR: But the majority of people who go to [INAUDIBLE] 00:35:04.828 --> 00:35:06.300 are, in fact, families-- 00:35:06.300 --> 00:35:08.076 tourists, you know. 00:35:08.076 --> 00:35:09.700 But a lot of them are probably tourists 00:35:09.700 --> 00:35:11.820 from other parts of Germany [INAUDIBLE], 00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:13.159 but also from Europe as a whole. 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:14.700 But of course, there's a small number 00:35:14.700 --> 00:35:16.450 of people who are going to [INAUDIBLE] who 00:35:16.450 --> 00:35:19.800 are the [INAUDIBLE] the people who are going 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:21.590 to decide what's [INAUDIBLE]. 00:35:21.590 --> 00:35:24.440 And they are looking at the families 00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:26.670 They're trying to figure out what 00:35:26.670 --> 00:35:29.040 is going to be that hot product this year 00:35:29.040 --> 00:35:31.190 so they can get new [? orders ?] in. 00:35:31.190 --> 00:35:31.689 [INAUDIBLE] 00:35:31.689 --> 00:35:32.615 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:35:32.615 --> 00:35:34.220 AUDIENCE: What time of year is it? 00:35:34.220 --> 00:35:35.015 PROFESSOR: I think it's August. 00:35:35.015 --> 00:35:36.320 AUDIENCE: Yeah, it's summer. 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:37.140 [INAUDIBLE] 00:35:37.140 --> 00:35:39.590 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:35:39.590 --> 00:35:42.330 PROFESSOR: Yeah, so-- but I don't 00:35:42.330 --> 00:35:44.810 know the extent to which the manufacturers need 00:35:44.810 --> 00:35:51.420 to have lined up their pipelines before [INAUDIBLE] in order 00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:55.290 to be able to capitalize on the [INAUDIBLE] 00:35:55.290 --> 00:35:58.030 Because if you fail to miss your window-- if you get the award 00:35:58.030 --> 00:36:00.446 and you can't actually put [INAUDIBLE] product down there, 00:36:00.446 --> 00:36:02.670 then you can't make as much money as you [INAUDIBLE]. 00:36:02.670 --> 00:36:04.920 AUDIENCE: And the toy fairs in the US, are they mainly 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:07.566 consumers going to it or the industry, the professionals, 00:36:07.566 --> 00:36:09.440 and they're sort of, like, rubbing shoulders? 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:10.746 PROFESSOR: Press. 00:36:10.746 --> 00:36:12.440 Press go to toy fairs as well. 00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:15.250 AUDIENCE: Yes, press, industry, Walmart, basically. 00:36:15.250 --> 00:36:17.679 [INAUDIBLE] Walmart and a couple others. 00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:19.470 AUDIENCE: So it's like, you're an inventor. 00:36:19.470 --> 00:36:22.020 You're trying to get on Walmart's shelf. 00:36:22.020 --> 00:36:23.544 So that's why you go? 00:36:23.544 --> 00:36:24.210 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 00:36:24.210 --> 00:36:26.876 AUDIENCE: You're trying to find, the next hot toy for Christmas. 00:36:26.876 --> 00:36:28.089 And that's why they-- 00:36:28.089 --> 00:36:30.630 PROFESSOR: Well, I'm not so sure that the toy fairs in the US 00:36:30.630 --> 00:36:32.559 are that inventor friendly. 00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:34.600 AUDIENCE: Yeah, the inventors have already gotten 00:36:34.600 --> 00:36:36.330 things [? off ?] by somebody. 00:36:36.330 --> 00:36:37.780 So it's the publisher. 00:36:37.780 --> 00:36:39.270 It's the maker who has already had 00:36:39.270 --> 00:36:41.632 the stable of inventors they purchased the product form. 00:36:41.632 --> 00:36:43.330 And they're making it to this place 00:36:43.330 --> 00:36:44.652 to test it out, see [INAUDIBLE] 00:36:44.652 --> 00:36:46.360 AUDIENCE: But who are they testing it on? 00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:47.840 AUDIENCE: The press and the people 00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:49.020 who are going to sell it. 00:36:49.020 --> 00:36:50.810 But-- [INAUDIBLE] Exactly. 00:36:50.810 --> 00:36:51.820 AUDIENCE: Isn't [INAUDIBLE] backwards, though? 00:36:51.820 --> 00:36:52.680 Because it's the consumer that's going 00:36:52.680 --> 00:36:54.051 to be buying it, not the-- 00:36:54.051 --> 00:36:55.462 AUDIENCE: The consumer doesn't have a need for it 00:36:55.462 --> 00:36:57.003 until they find out about it, though. 00:36:57.003 --> 00:36:58.400 It's a very different process. 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:00.720 The consumer is like, when you look at toys, 00:37:00.720 --> 00:37:02.760 just look at the US toy industry. 00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:04.230 The customer just isn't involved. 00:37:04.230 --> 00:37:06.680 AUDIENCE: It's just whatever the hype machine builds up? 00:37:06.680 --> 00:37:08.221 AUDIENCE: Yep, whichever hype machine 00:37:08.221 --> 00:37:09.740 has the most money behind it gets 00:37:09.740 --> 00:37:11.330 the product on the shelves. 00:37:11.330 --> 00:37:13.621 And these days, it's [INAUDIBLE] properties [INAUDIBLE] 00:37:13.621 --> 00:37:16.390 trans media, but like, most media properties. 00:37:16.390 --> 00:37:20.270 There's-- the game, the toy, the [INAUDIBLE], the comic, 00:37:20.270 --> 00:37:21.217 everything around it. 00:37:21.217 --> 00:37:22.550 AUDIENCE: Like a multi platform. 00:37:22.550 --> 00:37:23.904 AUDIENCE: Yeah, yeah. 00:37:23.904 --> 00:37:25.320 PROFESSOR: [INAUDIBLE] because you 00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:28.260 have multiple advertising campaigns pushing 00:37:28.260 --> 00:37:29.400 each one of these threads. 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:31.390 But they're also sort of pushing the entire [INAUDIBLE]. 00:37:31.390 --> 00:37:33.473 AUDIENCE: If this is something of interest to you, 00:37:33.473 --> 00:37:34.920 go to a Walgreens or a CVS. 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:38.980 Go to the toy area, and look at the toys that have really 00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:42.010 poorly designed games on the back of them just 00:37:42.010 --> 00:37:44.333 to kind of see, like, these are the things [INAUDIBLE]. 00:37:44.333 --> 00:37:46.074 Somebody made it. 00:37:46.074 --> 00:37:47.648 It didn't get much press. 00:37:47.648 --> 00:37:49.356 It didn't get that [INAUDIBLE] behind it. 00:37:49.356 --> 00:37:52.330 And just, these are [INAUDIBLE] what 00:37:52.330 --> 00:37:54.716 is the effort they put into that thing? 00:37:54.716 --> 00:37:56.340 For the most part, it's just packaging. 00:37:56.340 --> 00:37:57.500 The actual thing [? that's inside ?] of the 00:37:57.500 --> 00:37:57.999 package. 00:38:00.620 --> 00:38:03.124 PROFESSOR: I'm trying to think. 00:38:03.124 --> 00:38:05.070 Where is the big toy fair in the US? 00:38:05.070 --> 00:38:06.260 AUDIENCE: In New York. 00:38:06.260 --> 00:38:09.694 PROFESSOR: In New York f Do you know when it is, ish? 00:38:09.694 --> 00:38:10.610 The summer, I suppose? 00:38:10.610 --> 00:38:13.090 AUDIENCE: I want to say summer because [INAUDIBLE] 00:38:13.090 --> 00:38:14.650 Toys "R" Us. 00:38:14.650 --> 00:38:17.480 Well, I helped [INAUDIBLE] Toys "R" Us [INAUDIBLE] 00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:20.892 do this thing for a toy fair. 00:38:20.892 --> 00:38:23.660 I want to say but I could be wrong. 00:38:23.660 --> 00:38:25.159 PROFESSOR: Did you [INAUDIBLE]? 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:26.450 AUDIENCE: I didn't actually go. 00:38:26.450 --> 00:38:27.574 I just shipped the product. 00:38:27.574 --> 00:38:32.896 PROFESSOR: OK, so, my [INAUDIBLE] 00:38:32.896 --> 00:38:37.730 You may see a [INAUDIBLE] collectors, in particular. 00:38:37.730 --> 00:38:40.140 AUDIENCE: My customer was, like, they made 00:38:40.140 --> 00:38:42.300 point of purchase displays. 00:38:42.300 --> 00:38:44.930 They made point of purchase displays for retail outlets 00:38:44.930 --> 00:38:47.080 and it was like a huge deal for them. 00:38:47.080 --> 00:38:49.330 PROFESSOR: OK, so this is where they're selling things 00:38:49.330 --> 00:38:53.260 to stores to sell things, not the actual product that 00:38:53.260 --> 00:38:54.730 [INAUDIBLE]. 00:38:54.730 --> 00:38:56.060 Be caring sure. 00:38:56.060 --> 00:38:57.089 [INAUDIBLE] 00:38:57.089 --> 00:38:57.880 AUDIENCE: February. 00:38:57.880 --> 00:38:59.550 PROFESSOR: February? 00:38:59.550 --> 00:39:00.050 Gee. 00:39:00.050 --> 00:39:02.220 AUDIENCE: Toy fair in New York-- 00:39:02.220 --> 00:39:04.280 2015, February 14 [INAUDIBLE]. 00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:05.540 PROFESSOR: Oh good lord. 00:39:05.540 --> 00:39:08.517 February-- OK. 00:39:08.517 --> 00:39:10.600 I have a lot more to learn about the toy industry. 00:39:10.600 --> 00:39:12.370 AUDIENCE: So I guess it's Valentine's Day, 00:39:12.370 --> 00:39:13.876 after cards, then toys. 00:39:17.245 --> 00:39:18.620 PROFESSOR: The other thing that I 00:39:18.620 --> 00:39:21.036 thought was actually kind of interesting in the video that 00:39:21.036 --> 00:39:25.280 was how he was talking with the folks at [INAUDIBLE]. 00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:28.760 And he was describing about embodying the player, 00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:32.270 giving the player something that he can identify with either 00:39:32.270 --> 00:39:35.810 on the board or if all else fails, somewhere 00:39:35.810 --> 00:39:41.210 in the packaging, something that he can project himself into. 00:39:41.210 --> 00:39:45.590 I'm not entirely sure if that is sort of universally accepted 00:39:45.590 --> 00:39:47.990 across all publishers or even conventional wisdom 00:39:47.990 --> 00:39:50.927 across the board game industry, but it's certainly 00:39:50.927 --> 00:39:52.760 interesting to see it from the point of view 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:54.880 of one publisher saying, this is something 00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:58.280 important about the games that we want to publish. 00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:02.460 And we got a little bit of this from the [INAUDIBLE] gaming 00:40:02.460 --> 00:40:03.860 [INAUDIBLE] the other day. 00:40:03.860 --> 00:40:07.190 But it's [INAUDIBLE] I tend to go to the publisher 00:40:07.190 --> 00:40:09.545 and try to say, this is a game that [? could be ?] 00:40:09.545 --> 00:40:13.562 interesting, definitely try to do some research on not just 00:40:13.562 --> 00:40:16.020 the kind of games that they make, but also how they present 00:40:16.020 --> 00:40:17.228 those games to people, right? 00:40:17.228 --> 00:40:21.639 You know, you can probably make a good game. 00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:23.430 Like, the people who are at those companies 00:40:23.430 --> 00:40:25.130 have seen enough good games to be 00:40:25.130 --> 00:40:30.150 able to see past anything you may have missed. 00:40:30.150 --> 00:40:32.990 But it might improve your pitch a little bit and say, 00:40:32.990 --> 00:40:35.930 we've taken into account that you like-- 00:40:35.930 --> 00:40:39.270 I've taken into account that you like to position your games, 00:40:39.270 --> 00:40:41.580 present your games a certain way. 00:40:41.580 --> 00:40:44.301 And this is how you could do it with the game 00:40:44.301 --> 00:40:46.550 that I'm pitching to you, even though what I'm showing 00:40:46.550 --> 00:40:47.591 right now, the prototype. 00:40:47.591 --> 00:40:48.530 They didn't have that. 00:40:48.530 --> 00:40:51.430 Just being able to be able to speak to that means [INAUDIBLE] 00:40:51.430 --> 00:40:56.340 you're aware of the company's strategy and how [INAUDIBLE]. 00:40:56.340 --> 00:41:00.215 So if you are talking to a publisher, which generally does 00:41:00.215 --> 00:41:04.000 [INAUDIBLE] you know, I don't know 00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:08.080 who publishes [INAUDIBLE] but someone does, 00:41:08.080 --> 00:41:11.310 because I [INAUDIBLE]. 00:41:11.310 --> 00:41:14.630 But to say that this particular set of game mechanics 00:41:14.630 --> 00:41:17.840 would be a great tie in for this particular property 00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:19.610 or something that you already have. 00:41:19.610 --> 00:41:22.026 Even though that may not be something that you want to do, 00:41:22.026 --> 00:41:23.907 it's probably good for a publisher 00:41:23.907 --> 00:41:25.615 to be able to realize that you understand 00:41:25.615 --> 00:41:29.070 [INAUDIBLE] particular section of the business that you're in. 00:41:29.070 --> 00:41:31.030 AUDIENCE: It's also some so Fantasy Flight, 00:41:31.030 --> 00:41:33.455 don't want you to have IP attached to your games. 00:41:33.455 --> 00:41:35.330 They're going to bring their IP to the games. 00:41:35.330 --> 00:41:36.288 So they want mechanics. 00:41:36.288 --> 00:41:37.270 They want rules. 00:41:37.270 --> 00:41:39.860 They want how it's going to play, 00:41:39.860 --> 00:41:43.185 but they don't care about--- the space travel game. 00:41:43.185 --> 00:41:44.655 You might sell for them. 00:41:44.655 --> 00:41:46.780 And they say, all right, it's a [INAUDIBLE] fantasy 00:41:46.780 --> 00:41:49.042 game, the IP [INAUDIBLE] with us here. 00:41:49.042 --> 00:41:50.500 PROFESSOR: Also, probably gives you 00:41:50.500 --> 00:41:52.270 an idea of the kind of deal and contract 00:41:52.270 --> 00:41:53.919 you can get out of them. 00:41:53.919 --> 00:41:55.460 Because if you say you want to retain 00:41:55.460 --> 00:42:00.570 absolute creative control on it and determine the art that's 00:42:00.570 --> 00:42:03.127 going to go on the box or something like that, 00:42:03.127 --> 00:42:05.460 you might even be able to get that contract from someone 00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:07.160 like Fantasy Flight, but it's something 00:42:07.160 --> 00:42:08.460 that might be negotiable for-- 00:42:08.460 --> 00:42:11.864 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] there you would talk to them 00:42:11.864 --> 00:42:14.030 about what Kickstarter campaign you're going to run. 00:42:14.030 --> 00:42:15.660 That's what they're going to do-- a Kickstarter 00:42:15.660 --> 00:42:18.072 campaign with the game that they're publishing with you. 00:42:20.394 --> 00:42:22.810 PROFESSOR: So in other words, before you go and do a pitch 00:42:22.810 --> 00:42:25.730 at the publisher, just don't go in with a [? generic ?] pitch. 00:42:25.730 --> 00:42:30.417 [INAUDIBLE] go into something like a convention. 00:42:30.417 --> 00:42:32.500 You know, there are games that just have different 00:42:32.500 --> 00:42:34.840 [INAUDIBLE], for instance. 00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:36.530 [INAUDIBLE] of EB Games. 00:42:36.530 --> 00:42:38.790 There's one that's going to be right here on campus. 00:42:38.790 --> 00:42:40.460 If you've got a prototype that you 00:42:40.460 --> 00:42:44.020 want to let people know about and make-- 00:42:44.020 --> 00:42:45.770 I guess we don't get many publishers here, 00:42:45.770 --> 00:42:46.562 but you might get-- 00:42:46.562 --> 00:42:48.519 AUDIENCE: That's probably going to change soon. 00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:50.360 PROFESSOR: Yeah, Gathering of Friends 00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:56.690 is one such group where you have inventors and publishers all 00:42:56.690 --> 00:42:57.904 sitting at a big table. 00:42:57.904 --> 00:43:00.195 You don't need to [INAUDIBLE] prepare something special 00:43:00.195 --> 00:43:02.622 for publishers [INAUDIBLE] because they show you 00:43:02.622 --> 00:43:04.150 to multiple publishers at once. 00:43:04.150 --> 00:43:05.774 [INAUDIBLE] actually going to submit it 00:43:05.774 --> 00:43:07.160 to Hasbro or something that. 00:43:07.160 --> 00:43:12.710 You might just want to say this might make a great Transformers 00:43:12.710 --> 00:43:19.132 game because parts connect to each other or object 00:43:19.132 --> 00:43:20.840 [INAUDIBLE] mode, or something with that. 00:43:23.570 --> 00:43:25.640 Yeah, that's what I want to say about that. 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.030 So, today is [INAUDIBLE] play test day. 00:43:31.030 --> 00:43:33.320 It's almost 2:00. 00:43:33.320 --> 00:43:35.650 We had all our parts up here. 00:43:35.650 --> 00:43:39.771 So, how about we start play test at 3 o'clock? 00:43:39.771 --> 00:43:41.560 That should probably give you enough time 00:43:41.560 --> 00:43:46.420 to be able to get something playable by then, I'm hoping. 00:43:46.420 --> 00:43:48.750 Figure out what you want to test, 00:43:48.750 --> 00:43:50.680 how you're going to present it to people, 00:43:50.680 --> 00:43:56.600 and what questions you need answered to [INAUDIBLE]