WEBVTT 00:00:00.070 --> 00:00:02.500 The following content is provided under a Creative 00:00:02.500 --> 00:00:04.019 Commons license. 00:00:04.019 --> 00:00:06.360 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:06.360 --> 00:00:10.730 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 00:00:10.730 --> 00:00:13.330 To make a donation or view additional materials 00:00:13.330 --> 00:00:17.215 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:17.215 --> 00:00:17.840 at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:21.250 --> 00:00:24.366 PROFESSOR: All right, so today is the last of our guest 00:00:24.366 --> 00:00:27.136 lectures before we go into, what else? 00:00:27.136 --> 00:00:27.636 Sorry. 00:00:27.636 --> 00:00:29.100 Not the last day. 00:00:29.100 --> 00:00:31.052 This is Monday, right? 00:00:31.052 --> 00:00:32.028 AUDIENCE: It's Monday. 00:00:32.028 --> 00:00:33.778 PROFESSOR: I'm already feeling the crunch. 00:00:33.778 --> 00:00:36.420 So we've got-- this is the last week of guest lectures. 00:00:36.420 --> 00:00:39.836 Today, we've got Michael Carrier and Jenna 00:00:39.836 --> 00:00:44.270 Hostein talking to us about the business of Indie development. 00:00:44.270 --> 00:00:47.080 They are representatives from PD Game Collective. 00:00:47.080 --> 00:00:50.940 That happens-- they are a group of people who make games 00:00:50.940 --> 00:00:54.008 together over in Intrepid Labs? 00:00:54.008 --> 00:00:55.984 And that's over which [INAUDIBLE] building? 00:00:55.984 --> 00:00:58.460 AUDIENCE: The American Fine Building. 00:00:58.460 --> 00:00:58.725 PROFESSOR: The American Fine Building. 00:00:58.725 --> 00:00:59.933 They'll talk more about that. 00:00:59.933 --> 00:01:02.487 They often have open lunch days and things 00:01:02.487 --> 00:01:03.813 like that for students to come. 00:01:03.813 --> 00:01:06.150 So I'm sure they'll talk a little bit about that as well. 00:01:06.150 --> 00:01:08.316 They will also be available after the guest lecture. 00:01:08.316 --> 00:01:09.960 If you want them to play your game 00:01:09.960 --> 00:01:11.655 and get some feedback on your game 00:01:11.655 --> 00:01:13.800 if your game is ready to get more feedback, 00:01:13.800 --> 00:01:15.590 they can do that. 00:01:15.590 --> 00:01:17.542 It's again entirely optional. 00:01:17.542 --> 00:01:19.236 If you have a build-- hopefully you 00:01:19.236 --> 00:01:21.436 do-- I'll allow you to play briefly and get 00:01:21.436 --> 00:01:22.915 some feedback from them. 00:01:22.915 --> 00:01:23.901 That's it. 00:01:23.901 --> 00:01:26.220 So I'm going to hand the stage over to them. 00:01:29.070 --> 00:01:30.681 JENNA HOSTEIN: Is my audio working? 00:01:30.681 --> 00:01:31.180 We're good? 00:01:31.180 --> 00:01:32.090 All right. 00:01:32.090 --> 00:01:32.590 Hello. 00:01:32.590 --> 00:01:33.631 My name is Jenna Hostein. 00:01:33.631 --> 00:01:35.564 I'm the founder of Little World Interactive, 00:01:35.564 --> 00:01:37.980 and I'm a part of the Indie Game Collective, as Rick said. 00:01:37.980 --> 00:01:40.990 We're about six or seven blocks north, 00:01:40.990 --> 00:01:44.100 so we'd love to see you guys either in the evenings, 00:01:44.100 --> 00:01:47.080 or we do Friday lunch get-togethers. 00:01:47.080 --> 00:01:48.630 Michael can fill you in on that. 00:01:48.630 --> 00:01:51.004 He is more familiar with the details than I am. 00:01:51.004 --> 00:01:52.420 But I am here to talk to you today 00:01:52.420 --> 00:01:55.006 about the business of Indie development. 00:01:55.006 --> 00:01:56.380 If you're an Indie developer, you 00:01:56.380 --> 00:01:58.270 can't get away from business. 00:01:58.270 --> 00:02:01.810 When I first started, I-- I am a designer by trade 00:02:01.810 --> 00:02:07.400 and a developer by necessity, and a business person dragged 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:08.699 kicking and screaming into it. 00:02:08.699 --> 00:02:10.532 It was really something I was interested in. 00:02:10.532 --> 00:02:13.370 It remains something that I'm not super passionate about, 00:02:13.370 --> 00:02:16.345 but it's absolutely crucial to have any level of success. 00:02:16.345 --> 00:02:18.470 So I'm going to talk to you a little bit about what 00:02:18.470 --> 00:02:20.560 the past couple years have been like. 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:23.420 So first, let's talk about the realities of time 00:02:23.420 --> 00:02:25.710 as an Indie developer. 00:02:25.710 --> 00:02:28.060 When I worked at a larger studio, 00:02:28.060 --> 00:02:31.100 I used to daydream about what it would be like to work 00:02:31.100 --> 00:02:32.280 as an Indie developer. 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:34.970 In those dreams, it was me by myself 00:02:34.970 --> 00:02:38.170 sitting at my desk just working, and that, to me, 00:02:38.170 --> 00:02:41.760 was like this beautiful, glorious manna from heaven. 00:02:41.760 --> 00:02:44.090 I just wanted to sit and work on my game. 00:02:44.090 --> 00:02:47.160 So this was, naively, my expectation 00:02:47.160 --> 00:02:48.740 going into Indie game development-- 00:02:48.740 --> 00:02:51.090 that this was going to my life. 00:02:51.090 --> 00:02:53.500 I actually found out, that was not the truth. 00:02:53.500 --> 00:02:58.860 So there are events all of the time in the game world. 00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:03.450 There's PAX east, PAX south, PAX prime, PAX Australia. 00:03:03.450 --> 00:03:06.810 GEC, Indie K, Games for Change. 00:03:06.810 --> 00:03:09.462 I could probably list five or ten more events 00:03:09.462 --> 00:03:10.420 off the top of my head. 00:03:10.420 --> 00:03:13.130 It's absolutely crucial that you attend these 00:03:13.130 --> 00:03:15.620 both as an attendee just to network 00:03:15.620 --> 00:03:17.400 and to exhibit your game. 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:18.880 For example, PAX prime this year, 00:03:18.880 --> 00:03:23.380 it took probably two, three, maybe even four weeks 00:03:23.380 --> 00:03:26.630 full time prepping for that, attending that, 00:03:26.630 --> 00:03:29.540 and then coming down from that and tying up 00:03:29.540 --> 00:03:30.910 all the loose ends. 00:03:30.910 --> 00:03:33.120 So do not underestimate the amount of time 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:37.980 that it takes to actually attend a lot of these events. 00:03:37.980 --> 00:03:39.320 Marketing. 00:03:39.320 --> 00:03:42.220 Another thing that is really not my favorite, 00:03:42.220 --> 00:03:43.850 but I think a lot of Indie developers 00:03:43.850 --> 00:03:45.680 have a tendency to make their game 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:47.840 their beautiful precious baby, and then 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:50.310 they throw it over the fence and they say, 00:03:50.310 --> 00:03:52.380 am I a millionaire yet? 00:03:52.380 --> 00:03:53.890 And that's just not how it works. 00:03:53.890 --> 00:03:56.730 It's a constant ongoing effort to make people aware 00:03:56.730 --> 00:03:59.239 of your game, to make people care at all about your game. 00:03:59.239 --> 00:04:00.030 Because guess what? 00:04:00.030 --> 00:04:02.680 You're one of thousands and thousands 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:05.920 of developers who are doing exactly the same thing. 00:04:05.920 --> 00:04:08.730 So this has to be a constant ongoing effort 00:04:08.730 --> 00:04:09.990 to rise above the noise. 00:04:11.860 --> 00:04:13.360 Communication internal. 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:17.399 So I discovered very quickly that I am terrible at art, 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:21.220 I am terrible at sound, I am terrible at marketing. 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:23.501 So I brought in other people to do these things. 00:04:23.501 --> 00:04:25.000 And when you work with other people, 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:28.290 you have to talk to those other people, so that takes time. 00:04:28.290 --> 00:04:29.530 Communication external. 00:04:29.530 --> 00:04:32.500 There is a huge Indie game dev community, 00:04:32.500 --> 00:04:35.140 and if you're not taking advantage of those folks 00:04:35.140 --> 00:04:38.020 and really learning as much as you can from them, 00:04:38.020 --> 00:04:39.930 then you are doomed to fail. 00:04:39.930 --> 00:04:42.892 I saw somebody recently who has been at Indie 00:04:42.892 --> 00:04:44.480 for about a year and a half, and he 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:51.150 was doing this-- where he was sitting in his house very, very 00:04:51.150 --> 00:04:54.490 insulated and he had created a game that 00:04:54.490 --> 00:04:57.610 didn't look wildly interesting and clearly had not gotten 00:04:57.610 --> 00:04:59.730 input from almost anybody. 00:04:59.730 --> 00:05:04.170 He was working on his own engine and it looked like something we 00:05:04.170 --> 00:05:07.070 could have built in Unity in probably a couple of weeks. 00:05:07.070 --> 00:05:10.140 So that, to me, was clearly a failure 00:05:10.140 --> 00:05:12.410 of just talking to other Indies and learning 00:05:12.410 --> 00:05:15.304 from them what they're doing and their successes 00:05:15.304 --> 00:05:16.095 and their failures. 00:05:18.050 --> 00:05:19.970 QA and deployment. 00:05:19.970 --> 00:05:21.970 Learning how to do QA and learning how to deploy 00:05:21.970 --> 00:05:25.580 was another huge hurdle for me, and this just takes time. 00:05:25.580 --> 00:05:28.890 I have released very, very broken builds before, 00:05:28.890 --> 00:05:30.150 and you don't want to do that. 00:05:30.150 --> 00:05:32.337 So QA is a necessity. 00:05:32.337 --> 00:05:34.170 So this chart, to me, is really interesting, 00:05:34.170 --> 00:05:37.190 because if you look at how squashed that bottom bar has 00:05:37.190 --> 00:05:37.980 gotten. 00:05:37.980 --> 00:05:41.800 I spend less than half of my time actually making the game. 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.100 And that's why I got into this in the first place-- 00:05:44.100 --> 00:05:46.540 I just wanted to make my own games. 00:05:46.540 --> 00:05:49.360 So this is the reality of the situation. 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:50.590 This is not a bad thing. 00:05:50.590 --> 00:05:53.070 This is just how it has to be to have really 00:05:53.070 --> 00:05:55.370 any level of success. 00:05:55.370 --> 00:05:58.360 So when I first-- I developed The Counting Kingdom-- sorry, 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:00.220 I totally forgot to introduce myself. 00:06:00.220 --> 00:06:01.715 I made an educational game for kids 00:06:01.715 --> 00:06:03.420 called the Counting Kingdom. 00:06:03.420 --> 00:06:06.479 Just released for iOS recently, also on Steam. 00:06:06.479 --> 00:06:09.020 When I first budgeted out how long I thought that would take, 00:06:09.020 --> 00:06:11.190 it was about six months. 00:06:11.190 --> 00:06:13.770 It ended up taking about a year. 00:06:13.770 --> 00:06:16.440 And if you take into consideration this chart, 00:06:16.440 --> 00:06:20.165 I was right on, because given I was only 00:06:20.165 --> 00:06:22.165 spending about half my time working on the game, 00:06:22.165 --> 00:06:24.740 it took twice as long as I thought it was going to make. 00:06:24.740 --> 00:06:27.410 So now, whenever I try to estimate how long something 00:06:27.410 --> 00:06:30.200 will take, I take my gut check and then I double it, 00:06:30.200 --> 00:06:32.267 and that's usually pretty accurate. 00:06:32.267 --> 00:06:33.346 OK. 00:06:33.346 --> 00:06:35.220 So let's talk about working with other folks. 00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:36.820 So I discovered very, very quickly, 00:06:36.820 --> 00:06:38.270 I'm not particularly good at art. 00:06:38.270 --> 00:06:40.270 I'm not particularly good at sound. 00:06:40.270 --> 00:06:41.860 So I needed to bring in other people 00:06:41.860 --> 00:06:44.990 to compensate in these areas that I was failing. 00:06:44.990 --> 00:06:49.880 So I work with six people very, very part time. 00:06:49.880 --> 00:06:53.490 Luigi does art, Will does PR, Sam does animation, 00:06:53.490 --> 00:06:55.080 Jonas does sound effects. 00:06:55.080 --> 00:06:58.030 Brendan does music and Emma does community management. 00:06:58.030 --> 00:07:01.510 And all of these people were not just random people. 00:07:01.510 --> 00:07:03.570 At no point did I put out something 00:07:03.570 --> 00:07:06.120 into the world saying, I'm looking for a community 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:07.990 manager-- get in touch. 00:07:07.990 --> 00:07:09.410 I would never do that. 00:07:09.410 --> 00:07:12.170 That sounds like a lot of work and just a terrible way 00:07:12.170 --> 00:07:14.200 to actually find somebody. 00:07:14.200 --> 00:07:15.980 So both Luigi and Will are folks that I 00:07:15.980 --> 00:07:18.080 met through the local games community. 00:07:18.080 --> 00:07:20.530 Luigi did the art for Girls Like Robots, 00:07:20.530 --> 00:07:23.010 and I basically stalked him and tracked him down. 00:07:23.010 --> 00:07:26.850 I was like, whoever did this, I need them to make my game. 00:07:26.850 --> 00:07:28.265 Fortunately, he was a local guys, 00:07:28.265 --> 00:07:30.110 and so I got to meet him, talk to him 00:07:30.110 --> 00:07:33.566 and discover that he was a great for the team. 00:07:33.566 --> 00:07:35.190 Both Sam and Jonas were folks that were 00:07:35.190 --> 00:07:37.780 recommended by people I trust. 00:07:37.780 --> 00:07:43.570 Sam was an intern that I brought into a local university 00:07:43.570 --> 00:07:50.180 and Jonas was somebody that had sent in a great portfolio piece 00:07:50.180 --> 00:07:51.015 to another company. 00:07:51.015 --> 00:07:53.640 They were not able to hire him, but they basically put the word 00:07:53.640 --> 00:07:55.880 out saying, this audio guy looks amazing. 00:07:55.880 --> 00:07:58.212 If anybody is looking for an audio person, 00:07:58.212 --> 00:07:59.170 you should snap him up. 00:07:59.170 --> 00:08:01.090 So that's exactly what I did. 00:08:01.090 --> 00:08:04.360 Then Brendan and Emma are people that I previously worked with. 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:09.310 So the lesson to take away here is, you have to be networking. 00:08:09.310 --> 00:08:12.100 All of these folks were either people that I knew directly 00:08:12.100 --> 00:08:14.690 or people that knew somebody that I knew. 00:08:14.690 --> 00:08:17.450 As an Indie developer, I have no time. 00:08:17.450 --> 00:08:19.730 We've discussed this at length. 00:08:19.730 --> 00:08:22.810 I literally have no time. 00:08:22.810 --> 00:08:24.480 I am working more than full time, 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:27.280 and so I cannot micromanage somebody, 00:08:27.280 --> 00:08:29.770 I cannot be on somebody's ass to make sure they're getting 00:08:29.770 --> 00:08:30.836 their work done. 00:08:30.836 --> 00:08:32.669 And so, when I bring somebody into the team, 00:08:32.669 --> 00:08:36.850 it has to be somebody that I trust to not only do work, 00:08:36.850 --> 00:08:40.062 but to do amazing work and to be able to do that independently. 00:08:40.062 --> 00:08:42.645 So, for me, that means working with folks that I already know, 00:08:42.645 --> 00:08:44.730 that I already trust, and with folks 00:08:44.730 --> 00:08:47.480 that are highly recommended to me by people that I trust. 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:48.910 And nobody else. 00:08:48.910 --> 00:08:52.240 So if you're interested in working with an Indie company, 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:56.100 don't sit around waiting for them to put out job requests. 00:08:56.100 --> 00:09:00.600 You need to be actively trying to meet these folks. 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:02.610 Network. 00:09:02.610 --> 00:09:04.360 So I want to talk a little bit in detail 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:08.180 about what it means for me to hire somebody. 00:09:08.180 --> 00:09:09.930 This is how I do it-- it's not necessarily 00:09:09.930 --> 00:09:11.799 how everybody does it. 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:13.340 When I bring somebody in, I have them 00:09:13.340 --> 00:09:15.080 sign a work for hire contract. 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:17.910 That basically just means that they do work, I pay them, 00:09:17.910 --> 00:09:20.730 and my company owns the work that they do. 00:09:20.730 --> 00:09:22.520 I then create separate schedules, 00:09:22.520 --> 00:09:24.430 and that's a tiny one page document 00:09:24.430 --> 00:09:28.290 that says, reference all that other stuff in the contract. 00:09:28.290 --> 00:09:31.870 Here is what needs to be done by the contractor. 00:09:31.870 --> 00:09:33.599 It needs to be done by this date, 00:09:33.599 --> 00:09:35.140 and here's what they're getting paid. 00:09:35.140 --> 00:09:38.850 So it's a very, very simple document. 00:09:38.850 --> 00:09:42.050 You can do the payment in a couple of different ways. 00:09:42.050 --> 00:09:45.720 So when I first worked with Luigi, who's our artist, 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:46.960 we worked by bundles. 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:50.670 So I would say, I need this list of art assets. 00:09:50.670 --> 00:09:52.400 When do you think you can get them to me, 00:09:52.400 --> 00:09:53.920 and what would be a reasonable price? 00:09:53.920 --> 00:09:56.128 And we would negotiate both of those last two things. 00:09:56.128 --> 00:09:59.210 It was usually three or four weeks, 00:09:59.210 --> 00:10:01.100 and we would put that up in the schedule 00:10:01.100 --> 00:10:04.190 and then he would go off and do that work. 00:10:04.190 --> 00:10:05.810 Right now we've switched to hourly, 00:10:05.810 --> 00:10:08.226 just because it made sense towards the end of the project, 00:10:08.226 --> 00:10:11.029 because I would be like, oh, I need this one particular 00:10:11.029 --> 00:10:13.070 tiny little thing that I completely forgot about, 00:10:13.070 --> 00:10:14.986 and that didn't make sense to do entire bundle 00:10:14.986 --> 00:10:16.890 for like $20 worth of work. 00:10:16.890 --> 00:10:18.640 So we switched to hourly. 00:10:18.640 --> 00:10:20.660 It's also common to do revenue share. 00:10:20.660 --> 00:10:22.680 That could be the entirety of the payment, 00:10:22.680 --> 00:10:26.210 or that can be on top of hourly payment. 00:10:26.210 --> 00:10:27.990 Really depends on who you're working with 00:10:27.990 --> 00:10:30.200 and what make sense for you. 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:33.102 So this is just an example-- oh my gosh, sorry. 00:10:33.102 --> 00:10:34.185 This set up automatically. 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:39.090 Oops, there we go. 00:10:39.090 --> 00:10:39.680 OK. 00:10:39.680 --> 00:10:44.520 So this is an example of a bundle that I did with Luigi. 00:10:44.520 --> 00:10:46.620 You can see it just lists in detail 00:10:46.620 --> 00:10:49.660 all of the tiny little things that I needed at that point. 00:10:49.660 --> 00:10:51.980 So we ended up doing four or five big bundles 00:10:51.980 --> 00:10:53.590 and then swapped to hourly. 00:10:53.590 --> 00:10:55.620 This was about halfway through the project, 00:10:55.620 --> 00:10:58.750 so you can see some things are on the first strap, 00:10:58.750 --> 00:10:59.640 like the world map. 00:10:59.640 --> 00:11:02.610 Some things are getting a lot more detailed, 00:11:02.610 --> 00:11:04.230 like the level backgrounds. 00:11:04.230 --> 00:11:06.000 But this is it. 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:07.500 A schedule is not super complicated. 00:11:07.500 --> 00:11:09.710 It's just a list of what needs to be done, 00:11:09.710 --> 00:11:12.280 when it needs to be done by, and how 00:11:12.280 --> 00:11:14.865 a person's getting paid for it. 00:11:14.865 --> 00:11:17.730 The last thing I want to talk about is the long tail. 00:11:17.730 --> 00:11:21.010 We have this idea, I think, in Indie development 00:11:21.010 --> 00:11:25.120 that you're launch day needs to be your big day. 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:28.020 Especially in mobile, you see these graphs where it's like, 00:11:28.020 --> 00:11:30.550 launch day the rest of the time. 00:11:30.550 --> 00:11:33.320 Those graphs are super scary, because it means if you're not 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:37.700 making a huge amount of money on your launch day, 00:11:37.700 --> 00:11:39.440 you have absolutely no income. 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:43.060 I think this is 100% the wrong way to think about it. 00:11:43.060 --> 00:11:45.390 When I launched The Counting Kingdom on Steam, 00:11:45.390 --> 00:11:49.650 it sold 35 copies on launch day. 00:11:49.650 --> 00:11:50.840 35 copies. 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:54.290 I didn't think that was possible for a Steam game 00:11:54.290 --> 00:11:57.780 to sell that few copies on launch day. 00:11:57.780 --> 00:12:01.020 So that blew my mind, and I was kind of like, OK, 00:12:01.020 --> 00:12:03.570 I need to really rethink what I'm doing here. 00:12:03.570 --> 00:12:04.880 And since then, it's sold well. 00:12:04.880 --> 00:12:06.860 It's sold steadily. 00:12:06.860 --> 00:12:10.050 I've sold a lot more than 35 copies since then. 00:12:10.050 --> 00:12:13.910 But I've had to really flip my thinking about where 00:12:13.910 --> 00:12:15.620 the money is being made. 00:12:15.620 --> 00:12:19.420 So the point here is, this is not a business plan. 00:12:19.420 --> 00:12:21.860 Bullet point two has to be a lot of different things 00:12:21.860 --> 00:12:24.716 and it has to be over a large span of time. 00:12:24.716 --> 00:12:26.340 So for The Counting Kingdom, we started 00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:28.120 on Steam and the Humble Store. 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:29.890 We got into a Humble Weekly bundle, which 00:12:29.890 --> 00:12:31.900 was absolutely phenomenal, and so far, 00:12:31.900 --> 00:12:35.800 has been where the biggest chunk of our money has come from. 00:12:35.800 --> 00:12:39.116 Just launched on iOS, and I'm looking towards the future. 00:12:39.116 --> 00:12:40.990 There's a lot of different things I could do. 00:12:40.990 --> 00:12:42.448 I'm considering porting to Android, 00:12:42.448 --> 00:12:44.610 I'm considering trying to get into schools. 00:12:44.610 --> 00:12:46.160 I'm also talking with other companies 00:12:46.160 --> 00:12:48.850 about potentially licensing The Counting Kingdom 00:12:48.850 --> 00:12:51.580 for various opportunities. 00:12:51.580 --> 00:12:53.810 This has to be ongoing. 00:12:53.810 --> 00:12:55.310 There's the work of making the game, 00:12:55.310 --> 00:12:58.570 and then there's the work of making money from the game, 00:12:58.570 --> 00:13:00.500 and those are two separate things. 00:13:00.500 --> 00:13:03.550 That kind of sucks, but it takes that much work 00:13:03.550 --> 00:13:05.960 to actually make money from something that you've already 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:08.310 poured your heart and soul into. 00:13:08.310 --> 00:13:12.340 But that's just the reality of the business of making games. 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:15.900 So this is frustrating, but that's just 00:13:15.900 --> 00:13:18.575 something that, again, is a reality of being any developer. 00:13:18.575 --> 00:13:20.970 It's something you have to be aware of. 00:13:20.970 --> 00:13:23.640 So that is all I have for you. 00:13:23.640 --> 00:13:27.300 And Michael, come on down. 00:13:27.300 --> 00:13:29.630 MICHAEL CARRIER: So my name is Michael Carrier. 00:13:29.630 --> 00:13:33.690 I'm the founder of Zap Dot, Inc. I also 00:13:33.690 --> 00:13:36.200 am one of the co-leaders of Boston Indies 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:39.130 and the founder of the Indie Game Collective. 00:13:39.130 --> 00:13:42.790 It's a, as Rick mentioned, a small group of studios 00:13:42.790 --> 00:13:46.570 in the Cambridge area that work together, 00:13:46.570 --> 00:13:49.800 and we do a lot of things to try to help ensure that everybody 00:13:49.800 --> 00:13:53.950 is doing some awesome work and that our products are 00:13:53.950 --> 00:13:58.429 coming out really pretty. 00:13:58.429 --> 00:13:59.970 Some of the projects that I've worked 00:13:59.970 --> 00:14:03.700 on-- so I started off at Harmonics 00:14:03.700 --> 00:14:07.470 and I worked on a bunch of titles there. 00:14:07.470 --> 00:14:10.170 From there, I did an apprenticeship 00:14:10.170 --> 00:14:14.460 with an MIT alum, [INAUDIBLE] on the game Fallen Frontier 00:14:14.460 --> 00:14:16.430 after he left Bungee. 00:14:16.430 --> 00:14:21.400 I worked with the BBC and a company out in west coast 00:14:21.400 --> 00:14:23.780 called Pipeworks for Dancing With The Stars 00:14:23.780 --> 00:14:27.490 free to play online web game. 00:14:27.490 --> 00:14:31.124 I worked with some local Indies, Alchemy Labs on Jack Lumber, 00:14:31.124 --> 00:14:33.290 and Dejobaan Studios in a game called Drop That Beat 00:14:33.290 --> 00:14:35.660 Like An Ugly Baby. 00:14:35.660 --> 00:14:38.530 Another contract gig for me was, the bottom left, 00:14:38.530 --> 00:14:41.840 it's called Culture Shock, which was 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:43.310 a game that taught people who are 00:14:43.310 --> 00:14:47.740 being deployed to the Middle East cultural awareness. 00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:50.350 This is really a cool game for a group of neuroscientists 00:14:50.350 --> 00:14:51.830 to try to prove that games can help 00:14:51.830 --> 00:14:54.830 people recover from concussions effectively and efficiently. 00:14:54.830 --> 00:14:57.720 And my two current projects, [INAUDIBLE], 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:00.200 which is some contract work and Pleasant Dreams, 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:09.760 which is a digital reboot of a physical table top game. 00:15:09.760 --> 00:15:21.300 Out of these-- one second-- out of these, 00:15:21.300 --> 00:15:24.470 the top four were employment, and then 00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:27.650 Dancing With The Stars, Culture Shock, [INAUDIBLE] 00:15:27.650 --> 00:15:34.620 and this neurologist game were contract work. 00:15:34.620 --> 00:15:36.699 So what I'd like to do is give everybody 00:15:36.699 --> 00:15:38.490 a little bit of context for the information 00:15:38.490 --> 00:15:41.660 that we'll be talking about today. 00:15:41.660 --> 00:15:48.320 There is a differentiation between AAA and Indie. 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:50.730 I would prefer not to use that terminology. 00:15:50.730 --> 00:15:54.180 I want to talk about big company versus small company. 00:15:54.180 --> 00:15:58.200 Main reason being, with the tools that are out there today, 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:01.280 AAA and Indie used to be a description of quality 00:16:01.280 --> 00:16:04.650 or subject matter, and I really think those lines 00:16:04.650 --> 00:16:06.010 are becoming blurred. 00:16:06.010 --> 00:16:08.800 So talking about largest to small company really 00:16:08.800 --> 00:16:11.370 can encompass the type of work that you 00:16:11.370 --> 00:16:16.230 will be doing at those small companies or big companies. 00:16:16.230 --> 00:16:19.440 Either way, the direction that you take 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:20.870 is going to be really challenging 00:16:20.870 --> 00:16:22.760 for one reason or another. 00:16:22.760 --> 00:16:24.840 So if you work at a larger company, 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:27.790 it's really important for you to have a vast amount 00:16:27.790 --> 00:16:29.712 of domain knowledge. 00:16:29.712 --> 00:16:31.920 It's going to be challenging, because you're not only 00:16:31.920 --> 00:16:34.366 competing with local talent, but global talent. 00:16:34.366 --> 00:16:36.240 There are people from all over the world that 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.020 want to work at these companies, and these 00:16:38.020 --> 00:16:40.100 are some of the larger companies that 00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:43.820 do hire and have hired in the Boston area. 00:16:43.820 --> 00:16:46.990 But if you know the story behind some of these companies, 00:16:46.990 --> 00:16:49.330 there is a lot of overturn as well. 00:16:49.330 --> 00:16:52.620 You end up having people that come and go 00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:55.280 and are laid off from project to project just because 00:16:55.280 --> 00:16:56.760 of the state of the industry being 00:16:56.760 --> 00:17:05.450 more of a project-based industry that a long-term employment 00:17:05.450 --> 00:17:06.589 type of industry. 00:17:06.589 --> 00:17:09.420 So not only are you competing with people all over the world, 00:17:09.420 --> 00:17:11.711 but you're also competing with really bright people who 00:17:11.711 --> 00:17:13.349 have had years and years of experience 00:17:13.349 --> 00:17:16.460 at companies like these. 00:17:16.460 --> 00:17:19.520 Smaller companies are slightly different. 00:17:19.520 --> 00:17:22.220 You have smaller teams, you have smaller budgets, 00:17:22.220 --> 00:17:24.810 and you have to do more with less. 00:17:24.810 --> 00:17:27.920 Typically, what you do is you find people doing multiple jobs 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:31.017 to serve a lot of roles and share the load 00:17:31.017 --> 00:17:31.850 as much as they can. 00:17:34.690 --> 00:17:37.650 With both of these, both small and big companies, 00:17:37.650 --> 00:17:39.210 the hours are long. 00:17:39.210 --> 00:17:41.930 People don't always respect you for your work, 00:17:41.930 --> 00:17:44.669 and unfortunately, the pay isn't always great. 00:17:44.669 --> 00:17:46.710 Typically, you will make a fraction of the salary 00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:51.950 that you'd make with the same skill set outside the industry. 00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:53.480 But you know what? 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:56.150 That doesn't faze me. 00:17:56.150 --> 00:17:58.140 I love the challenge. 00:17:58.140 --> 00:18:01.310 Games are a really crazy field. 00:18:01.310 --> 00:18:04.860 Video games haven't been around in the public for 50 years, 00:18:04.860 --> 00:18:07.410 and it's an incredible medium already. 00:18:07.410 --> 00:18:09.460 You want to think about this-- the printing 00:18:09.460 --> 00:18:15.160 press was released or invented or became into mass use 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:16.190 in 1450. 00:18:16.190 --> 00:18:21.550 It's 564 years later, and now we have global information 00:18:21.550 --> 00:18:25.420 networks and we're complaining about these e ink displays, 00:18:25.420 --> 00:18:28.640 at how bad they are or good they are at displaying information 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:29.150 to us. 00:18:29.150 --> 00:18:32.150 The medium constantly changes on how that is distributed. 00:18:32.150 --> 00:18:33.650 Just imagine where games can go when 00:18:33.650 --> 00:18:34.960 we are so young in this medium. 00:18:38.030 --> 00:18:41.810 So I'm really here to talk to you today about contracting. 00:18:41.810 --> 00:18:47.130 It has served as my company's primary method of revenue 00:18:47.130 --> 00:18:49.880 over the past four years. 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:52.330 So there are some really great benefits of it. 00:18:52.330 --> 00:18:54.710 You get to work on a ton of projects. 00:18:54.710 --> 00:18:57.470 You meet a lot of people, and you learn 00:18:57.470 --> 00:18:58.869 a lot about different things. 00:18:58.869 --> 00:19:01.160 If you're going to go back and think about the projects 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:03.280 that I've worked on, I got to work 00:19:03.280 --> 00:19:06.090 on a free to play property with a really big company who 00:19:06.090 --> 00:19:09.762 had a huge marketing budget, and it was really well-known name-- 00:19:09.762 --> 00:19:10.720 Dancing With The Stars. 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:14.420 A lot of people know that TV show, or that property. 00:19:14.420 --> 00:19:17.810 In terms of brand recognition, it's great. 00:19:17.810 --> 00:19:19.880 I got to work on a game with some neurologists 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:21.920 and try to help show that games have 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:24.790 positive impact in the world, and that there are hopefully 00:19:24.790 --> 00:19:27.900 ways, if the study does come through positively, 00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:31.300 that we can help people recover from concussions more 00:19:31.300 --> 00:19:32.780 effectively. 00:19:32.780 --> 00:19:35.479 I got to work on a game with the army. 00:19:35.479 --> 00:19:37.520 Despite what you may think about our involvement, 00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:40.580 if we can help people learn how to work with each other better, 00:19:40.580 --> 00:19:44.639 I think that's a really awesome thing to be a part of. 00:19:44.639 --> 00:19:46.930 Now I'm getting to a point where people are approaching 00:19:46.930 --> 00:19:49.280 me to consult them for the experience and knowledge 00:19:49.280 --> 00:19:52.367 that I've gained over the course of the past four to six years 00:19:52.367 --> 00:19:53.950 that I've been in the industry so far. 00:19:56.890 --> 00:19:59.936 So one thing to keep in mind, is that the great thing 00:19:59.936 --> 00:20:02.560 about consulting and contracting is that there is a ton of work 00:20:02.560 --> 00:20:03.470 out there. 00:20:03.470 --> 00:20:06.469 There are plenty of people with ideas and money, 00:20:06.469 --> 00:20:08.760 but they don't necessarily have the skill or experience 00:20:08.760 --> 00:20:12.000 to be able to bring that to fruition. 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.170 Or their ideas were a bit too large, 00:20:14.170 --> 00:20:15.670 and they need some more people to be 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:19.790 able to make those ideas come to life. 00:20:19.790 --> 00:20:22.406 Sometimes, they just decided they want to bring someone in 00:20:22.406 --> 00:20:23.780 to help them out with the project 00:20:23.780 --> 00:20:24.780 that they're working on. 00:20:27.140 --> 00:20:28.910 I would also argue that contracting, 00:20:28.910 --> 00:20:30.380 once you get into the rhythm of it, 00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:33.610 is a very stable way to make a long-term living 00:20:33.610 --> 00:20:36.230 in this industry. 00:20:36.230 --> 00:20:38.850 From what I've been doing by contracting, 00:20:38.850 --> 00:20:41.130 I'm expecting and anticipating the project 00:20:41.130 --> 00:20:45.220 to project work that the industry typically creates. 00:20:45.220 --> 00:20:49.260 With the network that I've been able to create for myself, 00:20:49.260 --> 00:20:50.710 I actually feel very stable that I 00:20:50.710 --> 00:20:52.820 will be able to find something that someone will 00:20:52.820 --> 00:20:57.270 be able to recommend me for whenever a project ends if I 00:20:57.270 --> 00:20:59.270 decide to keep contracting. 00:20:59.270 --> 00:21:03.170 Ultimately, though, my goal is not to do contracting forever. 00:21:03.170 --> 00:21:04.800 The reason why I created Zap Dot was 00:21:04.800 --> 00:21:08.939 because I wanted to make and release my own games. 00:21:08.939 --> 00:21:10.730 When I started off, it was important for me 00:21:10.730 --> 00:21:12.730 to start generating some revenue for the company 00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:15.010 so that I could hire people who were 00:21:15.010 --> 00:21:18.470 worth the-- to bring people because they were worth it. 00:21:18.470 --> 00:21:20.970 I wanted to be able to pay them. 00:21:20.970 --> 00:21:22.820 So after the past four or five years, 00:21:22.820 --> 00:21:25.426 I've been able to gain enough capital for the company 00:21:25.426 --> 00:21:26.800 where Zap Dot will actually start 00:21:26.800 --> 00:21:27.883 working on its own titles. 00:21:30.195 --> 00:21:32.570 So I figured I would talk a little bit about the contract 00:21:32.570 --> 00:21:33.810 life cycle. 00:21:33.810 --> 00:21:35.730 Very much like Jenna said, events 00:21:35.730 --> 00:21:37.650 are super, super important. 00:21:37.650 --> 00:21:40.880 So you'll go to industry events or you'll go to local meetups, 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:42.860 and there are a ton of options, especially just 00:21:42.860 --> 00:21:46.040 in the Boston area alone. 00:21:46.040 --> 00:21:48.770 And you network and you get to meet people. 00:21:48.770 --> 00:21:51.610 The best advice that I can offer you when you're networking 00:21:51.610 --> 00:21:54.530 is, to not network for yourself, but network for others. 00:21:54.530 --> 00:21:57.290 Find ways to make introductions between different people. 00:21:57.290 --> 00:21:59.454 Find ways to get jobs for other people. 00:21:59.454 --> 00:22:01.870 The way that I've been able to get such an awesome network 00:22:01.870 --> 00:22:05.180 that I have right now is by getting other people jobs. 00:22:05.180 --> 00:22:07.990 In doing so, everybody comes-- a lot of people 00:22:07.990 --> 00:22:10.400 will come to me now for advice or when 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:12.150 they have a project that needs to be done. 00:22:12.150 --> 00:22:14.280 So I become a holder of information 00:22:14.280 --> 00:22:16.790 in terms of the projects that are available, 00:22:16.790 --> 00:22:20.090 which, when my company wants to pick one of those, I have, 00:22:20.090 --> 00:22:23.220 essentially, the pick of the litter for it. 00:22:23.220 --> 00:22:27.289 Also, it's really good to continually help people also 00:22:27.289 --> 00:22:28.580 find stability in the industry. 00:22:31.180 --> 00:22:33.860 To illustrate that, the first job I got 00:22:33.860 --> 00:22:36.340 was because I had a conversation in a floral shop when 00:22:36.340 --> 00:22:39.350 I was buying some flowers for my girlfriend. 00:22:39.350 --> 00:22:41.880 The second job was based of a recommendation, 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:44.920 and the third job was also based on a recommendation. 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:48.184 Another job was checking the Boston Indies email list. 00:22:48.184 --> 00:22:50.100 And the most recent job, someone approached me 00:22:50.100 --> 00:22:51.475 about doing the work because they 00:22:51.475 --> 00:22:56.250 had heard that I deliver on time and my work 00:22:56.250 --> 00:22:57.895 is pretty high quality. 00:23:00.555 --> 00:23:01.930 So let's say you do find someone. 00:23:01.930 --> 00:23:04.590 You find someone and you want to do work with them, 00:23:04.590 --> 00:23:06.850 or they want work being done. 00:23:06.850 --> 00:23:09.250 So what you do is, you do this really weird dance 00:23:09.250 --> 00:23:12.090 with the client and you talk to them for a bit 00:23:12.090 --> 00:23:13.814 about what kind of work they want to do 00:23:13.814 --> 00:23:15.230 and what kind of project they want 00:23:15.230 --> 00:23:17.480 to work on, why they want to involve you in it, 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:21.620 and why you should be involved in their project. 00:23:21.620 --> 00:23:25.310 You either become really scared about the expectations 00:23:25.310 --> 00:23:28.280 that they have or the money that they have to be able to spend, 00:23:28.280 --> 00:23:29.910 or you'll fall in love with them, 00:23:29.910 --> 00:23:32.240 or there'll be some in-between where 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.130 this is a good calculated decision for you 00:23:34.130 --> 00:23:37.925 or your company, and it makes sense to do it. 00:23:37.925 --> 00:23:39.550 From there, you take those expectations 00:23:39.550 --> 00:23:41.580 and you put them down to paper. 00:23:41.580 --> 00:23:43.870 Contracts are really, really important. 00:23:43.870 --> 00:23:47.320 Never do any work or have anybody do any work for you 00:23:47.320 --> 00:23:49.330 unless you have them sign some sort of contract. 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:54.060 Essentially, what these contracts you do is, 00:23:54.060 --> 00:23:57.450 they should manage expectations for both you and the person 00:23:57.450 --> 00:23:58.390 doing work. 00:23:58.390 --> 00:24:02.390 What happens when something goes wrong on either end? 00:24:02.390 --> 00:24:05.320 Be very careful with things like non-disclosure agreements 00:24:05.320 --> 00:24:07.040 or non-competes. 00:24:07.040 --> 00:24:09.260 I prefer to have all non-competes written out 00:24:09.260 --> 00:24:11.530 of contracts that I have signed. 00:24:11.530 --> 00:24:14.800 I've heard of other people asking for multiples 00:24:14.800 --> 00:24:21.410 of their time because the customer wanted the non-compete 00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:22.907 to stick. 00:24:22.907 --> 00:24:25.240 One other really important thing to remember, especially 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:26.615 when you're doing contracting is, 00:24:26.615 --> 00:24:29.410 you have the opportunity to fire a client as much as they have 00:24:29.410 --> 00:24:32.650 the opportunity to fire you. 00:24:32.650 --> 00:24:34.067 If people start going off contract 00:24:34.067 --> 00:24:36.316 and they start requesting things that they didn't have 00:24:36.316 --> 00:24:38.820 and they're not following the rules that you've established 00:24:38.820 --> 00:24:42.200 between your relationship, then understand that you do 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:47.080 have the right to get out of it if it goes sour. 00:24:47.080 --> 00:24:48.740 So you've signed the contract. 00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:50.830 Now you just need to make the game. 00:24:50.830 --> 00:24:53.770 Then after you make the game, you get paid. 00:24:53.770 --> 00:24:56.570 Jenna mentioned a bunch of different types of payment. 00:24:56.570 --> 00:24:59.440 You can do hourly rates-- I've done that. 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:02.330 You can do milestone payments where you agree, typically, 00:25:02.330 --> 00:25:04.604 on two to four weeks of work. 00:25:04.604 --> 00:25:06.020 You deliver that work, and as long 00:25:06.020 --> 00:25:09.780 as it is of acceptable quality, the client 00:25:09.780 --> 00:25:11.760 will accept it and then you the amount of money 00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:13.930 that you've worked on. 00:25:13.930 --> 00:25:16.150 Or you can do a full fee for a project. 00:25:16.150 --> 00:25:17.659 I've done all three. 00:25:17.659 --> 00:25:19.700 I would definitely caution against doing full fee 00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:21.860 for projects, just because-- especially if you're 00:25:21.860 --> 00:25:24.370 a perfectionist or the client starts trying 00:25:24.370 --> 00:25:28.130 to add more things-- scope can creep up over time 00:25:28.130 --> 00:25:30.640 and you-- well, typically for a full project fee, 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.330 unless you're very, very good about your time management, 00:25:34.330 --> 00:25:37.580 you'll end up doing more work than what you charged for. 00:25:37.580 --> 00:25:39.500 Sometimes you'll find out that you need help. 00:25:39.500 --> 00:25:41.540 Well, the cycle kind of starts again. 00:25:41.540 --> 00:25:44.170 You've gone to these events that you people. 00:25:44.170 --> 00:25:46.320 You do a little dance with them to make sure 00:25:46.320 --> 00:25:49.320 that they kind of fit the situation for them. 00:25:49.320 --> 00:25:53.300 If you find someone that you want to be able to work with, 00:25:53.300 --> 00:25:55.621 you write up a contract. 00:25:55.621 --> 00:25:57.120 You set up expectations for the work 00:25:57.120 --> 00:25:59.280 that they will be coming on to help you with. 00:25:59.280 --> 00:26:01.870 And now, as an employer of some sort, 00:26:01.870 --> 00:26:03.780 you have to worry about managing two people. 00:26:03.780 --> 00:26:05.070 Not only are you managing yourself 00:26:05.070 --> 00:26:06.480 and the work that you are delivering to a client, 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:09.120 you're making sure that your contractor or employee 00:26:09.120 --> 00:26:11.460 is doing the same thing, that the client's happy. 00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:13.340 Depending on how many people you add, 00:26:13.340 --> 00:26:16.326 it can take a lot of your time. 00:26:16.326 --> 00:26:17.700 Over the past couple of projects, 00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:22.400 I have hired help or outsourced some work for the projects 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:23.150 that I've done. 00:26:23.150 --> 00:26:24.660 I've been able to hire about five 00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:28.590 to six people-- not all at once, and not all for the same thing. 00:26:28.590 --> 00:26:31.760 But some of the work that I've had people come in for 00:26:31.760 --> 00:26:36.315 has branched from a couple hours to a monthly milestones 00:26:36.315 --> 00:26:38.043 that I've paid people to work on. 00:26:42.030 --> 00:26:45.644 One really important thing is that, with contracting, 00:26:45.644 --> 00:26:47.560 especially if you're running your own company, 00:26:47.560 --> 00:26:50.140 there are a lot of other responsibilities that you have. 00:26:50.140 --> 00:26:53.950 There are taxes that you need to worry about paying. 00:26:53.950 --> 00:26:57.610 Stuff that normally would be done if you were an employee 00:26:57.610 --> 00:27:00.126 is not your responsibility. 00:27:00.126 --> 00:27:02.000 There are definitely a lot of different laws, 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:04.041 especially in Massachusetts, about hiring people. 00:27:04.041 --> 00:27:06.094 You need to be very careful that you 00:27:06.094 --> 00:27:08.010 are treating your contractors like contractors 00:27:08.010 --> 00:27:08.800 and not employees. 00:27:08.800 --> 00:27:10.560 Otherwise, you should be providing those employees 00:27:10.560 --> 00:27:11.059 benefits. 00:27:14.121 --> 00:27:15.620 And then that's also the same thing, 00:27:15.620 --> 00:27:17.235 to make sure that the people that are hiring you 00:27:17.235 --> 00:27:18.609 are treating you like an employee 00:27:18.609 --> 00:27:21.610 or expecting you to act like an employee. 00:27:21.610 --> 00:27:24.010 So make sure that you pay attention to the work 00:27:24.010 --> 00:27:26.520 that you're doing and really round yourself out 00:27:26.520 --> 00:27:29.140 on the rules and regulations around work. 00:27:32.451 --> 00:27:32.950 That's it. 00:27:32.950 --> 00:27:37.040 So I wanted to open the floor for Jenna and I 00:27:37.040 --> 00:27:41.180 to let you jump in and talk about any questions. 00:27:41.180 --> 00:27:46.080 [APPLAUSE] 00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:47.415 MICHAEL CARRIER: Yes? 00:27:47.415 --> 00:27:48.040 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:27:48.040 --> 00:27:51.470 So do you have any advice for marketing new games? 00:27:51.470 --> 00:27:54.165 Because I think that's a thing that a lot of [INAUDIBLE] how 00:27:54.165 --> 00:27:58.195 do you promote your product and where do you do it? 00:27:58.195 --> 00:27:59.570 JENNA HOSTEIN: So I've been doing 00:27:59.570 --> 00:28:01.227 a lot of ongoing social media. 00:28:01.227 --> 00:28:03.310 We have a Little World Interactive Twitter account 00:28:03.310 --> 00:28:04.620 and Facebook page. 00:28:04.620 --> 00:28:10.450 A lot of it depends very much on the type of game you're making. 00:28:10.450 --> 00:28:13.434 The best approach to it is a slow drip type of thing. 00:28:13.434 --> 00:28:14.975 You don't get a week away from launch 00:28:14.975 --> 00:28:18.640 and go, OK, time to market this. 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:21.550 One thing that I've seen work very successfully is, 00:28:21.550 --> 00:28:24.480 we have somebody else working in the IGC who's 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:27.300 creating a first person dodge ball game, 00:28:27.300 --> 00:28:29.130 and it's just wacky and fun. 00:28:29.130 --> 00:28:32.520 So he's had huge success on Reddit and with Live Streamer. 00:28:32.520 --> 00:28:34.310 So he's an early access, but he's already 00:28:34.310 --> 00:28:36.630 been very, very successful because he's 00:28:36.630 --> 00:28:38.980 been able to tap into those communities. 00:28:38.980 --> 00:28:41.970 It's a lot of, what companies can you tap into? 00:28:41.970 --> 00:28:44.650 How do you reach those folks? 00:28:44.650 --> 00:28:48.330 Then going to as many events as you can afford slash 00:28:48.330 --> 00:28:49.570 have time to. 00:28:49.570 --> 00:28:54.000 In the past year, I've exhibited at probably 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:58.440 a dozen different events-- some really big, some really small. 00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:02.510 But that has been crucial to meeting players in person 00:29:02.510 --> 00:29:04.530 and also to meeting the journalists 00:29:04.530 --> 00:29:06.200 that attend those events as well. 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:08.750 So definitely approach it as a very 00:29:08.750 --> 00:29:11.390 ongoing got to put in a little bit of effort every week 00:29:11.390 --> 00:29:12.280 type thing. 00:29:12.280 --> 00:29:14.050 MICHAEL CARRIER: Yeah. 00:29:14.050 --> 00:29:17.320 Marketing should be a role on itself on your project. 00:29:17.320 --> 00:29:19.360 So very many people will leave it 00:29:19.360 --> 00:29:21.640 towards the end, like Jenna mentioned in her talk, 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:24.020 or not do it all and just kind of expect people 00:29:24.020 --> 00:29:26.147 to flock to your game after you've released it. 00:29:29.280 --> 00:29:32.242 The other thing is, also as Jenna mentioned in her talk, 00:29:32.242 --> 00:29:33.700 is that marketing is something that 00:29:33.700 --> 00:29:36.990 needs to start before your project has launched 00:29:36.990 --> 00:29:38.930 and continue after it has launched. 00:29:41.570 --> 00:29:45.780 The more you can kind of interweave it 00:29:45.780 --> 00:29:50.210 into your game and the entire development process, 00:29:50.210 --> 00:29:52.669 the better it will be, the more people will know about. 00:29:52.669 --> 00:29:54.710 The objective is just to get the most people know 00:29:54.710 --> 00:29:56.080 about your title as possible. 00:29:56.080 --> 00:29:57.690 JENNA HOSTEIN: And to add one last thing to that-- the way 00:29:57.690 --> 00:29:59.390 that I try to approach social media 00:29:59.390 --> 00:30:02.130 is to give people something that they're excited to share. 00:30:02.130 --> 00:30:05.817 So if you're just like, the game's still on the store-- 00:30:05.817 --> 00:30:08.150 nobody's going to care about that tweet or that Facebook 00:30:08.150 --> 00:30:09.030 post. 00:30:09.030 --> 00:30:11.450 But we do a lot of cute little cartoons 00:30:11.450 --> 00:30:14.260 of the characters from the game, share a lot 00:30:14.260 --> 00:30:16.020 of reviews, a lot of testimonials 00:30:16.020 --> 00:30:18.730 from parents and teachers. 00:30:18.730 --> 00:30:22.600 The NASA online presence is phenomenal. 00:30:22.600 --> 00:30:25.000 If you want to see how to do social media well, 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:27.200 follow the NASA Twitter feed. 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:29.849 It's seriously astonishingly good. 00:30:29.849 --> 00:30:31.390 They just did something the other day 00:30:31.390 --> 00:30:35.250 where they have a new upcoming mission called Orion, I think. 00:30:35.250 --> 00:30:37.270 And they did the ABCs of Orion. 00:30:37.270 --> 00:30:40.660 So they did 26 tweets-- one for each letter-- and each tweet 00:30:40.660 --> 00:30:46.630 had this beautiful graphic image of like, A for-- I 00:30:46.630 --> 00:30:49.400 don't remember, I didn't look it at all of them. 00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:51.220 But it was very, very clever. 00:30:51.220 --> 00:30:54.860 I ended up re-tweeting the letters, S-P-A-C-E, 00:30:54.860 --> 00:30:57.140 just because that made me feel clever. 00:30:57.140 --> 00:30:59.620 But they got me to re-tweet five of their tweets. 00:30:59.620 --> 00:31:01.600 That's a win for them. 00:31:01.600 --> 00:31:04.470 So little things like that, you have to think about, 00:31:04.470 --> 00:31:06.790 what content can you make that other people 00:31:06.790 --> 00:31:10.830 are going to be really excited to share with their networks? 00:31:10.830 --> 00:31:11.630 Yes? 00:31:11.630 --> 00:31:13.650 AUDIENCE: What's the street off of [INAUDIBLE] 00:31:13.650 --> 00:31:16.820 and Massachusetts right now? 00:31:16.820 --> 00:31:21.910 I know that there was some stuff going to state legislature 00:31:21.910 --> 00:31:24.580 about whether that's actually enforceable. 00:31:24.580 --> 00:31:25.730 MICHAEL CARRIER: Sure. 00:31:25.730 --> 00:31:26.880 I've heard about that. 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.950 I don't think it's completely unenforceable yet. 00:31:30.950 --> 00:31:33.425 I don't think that that's passed to make 00:31:33.425 --> 00:31:34.550 non-competes unenforceable. 00:31:34.550 --> 00:31:35.946 AUDIENCE: So there's debate? 00:31:35.946 --> 00:31:36.863 MICHAEL CARRIER: Yeah. 00:31:36.863 --> 00:31:39.196 JENNA HOSTEIN: Yeah, that's a really good point, though. 00:31:39.196 --> 00:31:42.170 You have to look very carefully at any contracts that you sign. 00:31:42.170 --> 00:31:45.040 A lot of companies will put wording in there-- well, 00:31:45.040 --> 00:31:46.710 studios will put wording in there 00:31:46.710 --> 00:31:49.650 that they own anything you make regardless of whether you 00:31:49.650 --> 00:31:51.682 make it at work or at home. 00:31:51.682 --> 00:31:53.140 So especially if you're someone who 00:31:53.140 --> 00:31:57.850 likes working on side projects, that can be very dangerous. 00:31:57.850 --> 00:31:59.226 So just something to be aware of. 00:31:59.226 --> 00:32:00.600 MICHAEL CARRIER: Especially ideas 00:32:00.600 --> 00:32:03.076 that you've come up with during working on their project. 00:32:06.080 --> 00:32:11.770 There can be a large-- the more vague they are, 00:32:11.770 --> 00:32:13.882 the more dangerous it is to you. 00:32:18.256 --> 00:32:20.686 AUDIENCE: We have another question. 00:32:20.686 --> 00:32:23.620 AUDIENCE: Have either of you worked with either state grants 00:32:23.620 --> 00:32:26.720 or small business grants-- organizations 00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:33.040 that basically give money for help for new companies? 00:32:33.040 --> 00:32:36.484 What's the experience like working some projects 00:32:36.484 --> 00:32:37.781 if you have? 00:32:37.781 --> 00:32:39.030 JENNA HOSTEIN: I have not yet. 00:32:39.030 --> 00:32:42.490 That's something I'm actively looking into for the next game. 00:32:42.490 --> 00:32:43.990 The thing that's holding me back is, 00:32:43.990 --> 00:32:47.024 it looks like a lot of work in a subject area I don't know. 00:32:47.024 --> 00:32:48.440 I don't know how to write a grant, 00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:52.310 so that's something I would have to learn for a shot at money. 00:32:52.310 --> 00:32:58.880 So that's what's had we not pursue that so far. 00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.530 I'm going to be looking into education-specific grants, 00:33:01.530 --> 00:33:04.113 which I think I would just have a better shot at, because it's 00:33:04.113 --> 00:33:05.510 a more narrow field. 00:33:05.510 --> 00:33:09.420 But-- not yet, but maybe. 00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:11.120 MICHAEL CARRIER: The neuroscientist game 00:33:11.120 --> 00:33:14.350 that I worked on was funded in part, 00:33:14.350 --> 00:33:18.140 I think, by a grant of the National 00:33:18.140 --> 00:33:19.530 Institute of Health-- NIH. 00:33:19.530 --> 00:33:20.363 AUDIENCE: I got you. 00:33:22.152 --> 00:33:23.610 JENNA HOSTEIN: Yeah, and I've heard 00:33:23.610 --> 00:33:26.320 of a few Indies who are working with institutions 00:33:26.320 --> 00:33:28.150 who have gotten grant money. 00:33:28.150 --> 00:33:29.780 But I don't know of too many Indies 00:33:29.780 --> 00:33:32.650 who have gotten grant money on their own in the United States. 00:33:32.650 --> 00:33:35.850 So other countries like Canada and Australia-- 00:33:35.850 --> 00:33:37.850 though, I think, Australia-- maybe not anymore-- 00:33:37.850 --> 00:33:40.840 how government-funded grants for the arts, 00:33:40.840 --> 00:33:42.816 so they include games in that. 00:33:42.816 --> 00:33:45.510 But we do not, unfortunately. 00:33:45.510 --> 00:33:47.411 I would love some government money. 00:33:47.411 --> 00:33:49.660 AUDIENCE: How common is it for studios to be acquired, 00:33:49.660 --> 00:33:52.500 and is that something they target? 00:33:52.500 --> 00:33:56.400 MICHAEL CARRIER: So I would say, it's 00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.065 uncommon at a smaller level. 00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:03.690 Definitely, the way that you're going to make money as a studio 00:34:03.690 --> 00:34:05.400 is not from an exit strategy of being 00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:07.630 purchased by a larger company. 00:34:07.630 --> 00:34:10.560 It's more along the lines of the revenue 00:34:10.560 --> 00:34:12.560 that you'll be making from either your contracts 00:34:12.560 --> 00:34:15.993 or the profits from your game. 00:34:15.993 --> 00:34:18.159 That being said, some companies have been purchased. 00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:21.440 I know one of the other subcontractors 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.989 I worked with Dancing With The Stars was purchased by a larger 00:34:24.989 --> 00:34:26.070 company. 00:34:26.070 --> 00:34:29.570 I know that Amazon has purchased a few game companies when 00:34:29.570 --> 00:34:33.960 they were launching the Kindle to try to bring games 00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:37.460 in for their platform. 00:34:37.460 --> 00:34:42.059 So it's not impossible, but it's definitely not an exit strategy 00:34:42.059 --> 00:34:43.600 that most people would start a studio 00:34:43.600 --> 00:34:44.969 with the expectation of having. 00:34:44.969 --> 00:34:46.760 JENNA HOSTEIN: Yeah, and there's definitely 00:34:46.760 --> 00:34:51.870 a group of Indie studios who are generally 00:34:51.870 --> 00:34:55.409 between 6 to 12 people and they have an actual CEO 00:34:55.409 --> 00:34:58.350 who can go out and raise money. 00:34:58.350 --> 00:35:00.520 Those are Indie in the sense that they're 00:35:00.520 --> 00:35:04.140 small and self-owned and independently publishing, 00:35:04.140 --> 00:35:06.690 but it's kind of a different class of Indie, 00:35:06.690 --> 00:35:09.420 because they can be raising potentially millions of dollars 00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:10.380 to fund their games. 00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:12.296 So those are the types of companies that would 00:35:12.296 --> 00:35:14.310 be most likely to be purchased. 00:35:14.310 --> 00:35:17.360 Little Worlds Interactive is just me and my games, 00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:21.360 and so if somebody were to purchase my company, 00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:24.820 they would just be hiring me, basically, 00:35:24.820 --> 00:35:27.450 and like, purchasing my games. 00:35:27.450 --> 00:35:30.620 So that's probably not something that's going to happen, 00:35:30.620 --> 00:35:33.837 though it's not unheard of entirely. 00:35:33.837 --> 00:35:35.920 MICHAEL CARRIER: And I guess a tangential approach 00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:37.710 that you could have-- that is, actually taking your games 00:35:37.710 --> 00:35:39.650 and licensing them out for other properties. 00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:44.452 Yes? 00:35:44.452 --> 00:35:47.100 AUDIENCE: How long were you guys in the industry 00:35:47.100 --> 00:35:49.910 before starting to do your own thing? 00:35:49.910 --> 00:35:52.290 JENNA HOSTEIN: So I was in the industry 00:35:52.290 --> 00:35:53.850 for-- it depends on what you count. 00:35:53.850 --> 00:35:57.370 So, grad school for two years and working for four years, 00:35:57.370 --> 00:35:59.717 and then I've been an Indie for two. 00:35:59.717 --> 00:36:01.300 MICHAEL CARRIER: I worked at Harmonics 00:36:01.300 --> 00:36:06.170 for just under two years before I started doing consulting. 00:36:06.170 --> 00:36:12.190 The Culture Shock game was my first project out of it. 00:36:12.190 --> 00:36:14.440 JENNA HOSTEIN: A lot of people-- just to add onto that 00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:17.710 and then look at you up there-- a lot of people 00:36:17.710 --> 00:36:20.090 go straight from undergrad to Indie, 00:36:20.090 --> 00:36:22.090 and that's a totally valid approach. 00:36:22.090 --> 00:36:25.090 But there is also so much to be learned in a studio. 00:36:25.090 --> 00:36:27.760 Even if that is not your ideal environment-- 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:31.470 it certainly wasn't for me-- but I regularly 00:36:31.470 --> 00:36:35.010 use things that I learned in my time working at a studio. 00:36:35.010 --> 00:36:39.040 So I wouldn't necessarily recommend just 00:36:39.040 --> 00:36:41.180 going directly Indie straight from undergrad. 00:36:41.180 --> 00:36:43.430 MICHAEL CARRIER: And this is part of a different talk, 00:36:43.430 --> 00:36:48.550 but-- I didn't go into that. 00:36:48.550 --> 00:36:50.387 But it's a bad idea, just because there 00:36:50.387 --> 00:36:52.470 are a lot of mistakes that you'll make on your own 00:36:52.470 --> 00:36:54.761 that you could have learned from a larger company who's 00:36:54.761 --> 00:36:57.600 already made those mistakes and can teach you better ways. 00:36:57.600 --> 00:36:59.433 Not that they'll have all the right answers, 00:36:59.433 --> 00:37:04.180 but-- and it's not to say that you won't be successful 00:37:04.180 --> 00:37:07.030 if you were to do it right out of school. 00:37:07.030 --> 00:37:08.752 It's just much harder to hit. 00:37:08.752 --> 00:37:10.676 AUDIENCE: I was just wondering, Jenna-- 00:37:10.676 --> 00:37:14.374 what did you work on before you became an Indie? 00:37:14.374 --> 00:37:16.207 What were you doing, or what was grad school 00:37:16.207 --> 00:37:17.900 and then after that experience? 00:37:17.900 --> 00:37:19.316 JENNA HOSTEIN: So after undergrad, 00:37:19.316 --> 00:37:22.180 I worked at a local startup called Hangout Industries 00:37:22.180 --> 00:37:25.930 and we were making one of the original 3D virtual worlds. 00:37:25.930 --> 00:37:31.610 So it was meant to be a social chill place for teen girls. 00:37:31.610 --> 00:37:33.636 It crashed and burned hard. 00:37:33.636 --> 00:37:35.510 Most of the lessons I learned at that company 00:37:35.510 --> 00:37:38.770 were how not to do the things we were trying to do, 00:37:38.770 --> 00:37:39.810 which is valuable. 00:37:39.810 --> 00:37:41.250 Which is a very valuable lesson. 00:37:41.250 --> 00:37:42.985 So then I went to Indiana University 00:37:42.985 --> 00:37:45.900 and got my master's degree in game design, 00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:48.780 and then came back here and worked at Stomp Games, which 00:37:48.780 --> 00:37:50.390 was formerly Tencent Boston. 00:37:50.390 --> 00:37:55.850 We did Robot Rising-- and that was a diablo-esque game 00:37:55.850 --> 00:37:57.580 with robots on Facebook. 00:37:57.580 --> 00:37:59.420 So I've kind of bounced all over the place. 00:37:59.420 --> 00:38:02.350 I've made mobile titles, I've made Facebook titles. 00:38:02.350 --> 00:38:05.830 I had an internship at Turbines where I've worked on MMOs. 00:38:05.830 --> 00:38:08.710 And like I was saying before, that experience really 00:38:08.710 --> 00:38:10.880 has just given me a breadth of knowledge that I've 00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:13.590 been able to apply to Indies. 00:38:13.590 --> 00:38:15.404 AUDIENCE: So a number of the other people 00:38:15.404 --> 00:38:17.172 we brought into class were talking a little bit 00:38:17.172 --> 00:38:18.550 about the internships that they had 00:38:18.550 --> 00:38:19.758 [INAUDIBLE] larger companies. 00:38:19.758 --> 00:38:21.430 Can you talk a little bit about-- so you 00:38:21.430 --> 00:38:24.657 mentioned you used an intern for your process, Jenna. 00:38:24.657 --> 00:38:26.970 I forget if you mentioned [INAUDIBLE]. 00:38:26.970 --> 00:38:29.270 MICHAEL CARRIER: I have not used interns yet, 00:38:29.270 --> 00:38:31.607 but it's something that I am very excited about. 00:38:31.607 --> 00:38:33.190 AUDIENCE: So can you talk a little bit 00:38:33.190 --> 00:38:34.915 about how it works for your small studio 00:38:34.915 --> 00:38:36.290 and what the experiences might be 00:38:36.290 --> 00:38:37.998 for being an intern at one of you studios 00:38:37.998 --> 00:38:39.167 compared to a larger studio? 00:38:39.167 --> 00:38:40.000 JENNA HOSTEIN: Sure. 00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:43.500 So the intern that I worked with was Sam. 00:38:43.500 --> 00:38:48.710 He was an animator, and he went to school at a local animation 00:38:48.710 --> 00:38:50.640 school, I don't remember what it was called-- 00:38:50.640 --> 00:38:52.680 and I knew one of the teachers there. 00:38:52.680 --> 00:38:55.160 As part of their graduate requirements-- 00:38:55.160 --> 00:38:57.370 I think they called it a co-op-- they just 00:38:57.370 --> 00:38:59.240 needed to put in a certain number of hours 00:38:59.240 --> 00:39:00.345 with a local studio. 00:39:00.345 --> 00:39:01.970 The expectation was that it was unpaid, 00:39:01.970 --> 00:39:04.590 because they were basically getting course credit for it. 00:39:04.590 --> 00:39:08.400 So for me, it was a risk-free situation. 00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:11.027 Like, basically, I could get somebody to do art for me 00:39:11.027 --> 00:39:13.360 for free, but they were getting something out of it too, 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:14.901 so I didn't have to feel too horribly 00:39:14.901 --> 00:39:16.670 guilty about not paying them. 00:39:16.670 --> 00:39:18.210 And it worked out phenomenally. 00:39:18.210 --> 00:39:19.960 So one of the big differences with working 00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:22.280 with an Indie versus a large studio 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:24.870 is that, I basically said to him, 00:39:24.870 --> 00:39:27.250 I need animation in my game. 00:39:27.250 --> 00:39:29.640 If you could do that, please, that would be great. 00:39:29.640 --> 00:39:33.320 So he did all of the animation in The Counting Kingdom, 00:39:33.320 --> 00:39:35.630 first as an internship, and then as a paid contractor 00:39:35.630 --> 00:39:37.420 down the road. 00:39:37.420 --> 00:39:40.510 So he got a massive amount of responsibility. 00:39:40.510 --> 00:39:42.680 The only door art direction I gave him was, like, 00:39:42.680 --> 00:39:46.710 make it cute, but also scary a little bit, but not too scary. 00:39:46.710 --> 00:39:50.220 So he had just a huge amount of creative control. 00:39:50.220 --> 00:39:52.820 The downside to that was, we all worked remotely, 00:39:52.820 --> 00:39:56.942 and so I saw him maybe once every couple of weeks. 00:39:56.942 --> 00:39:58.400 But we stayed in touch to make sure 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.160 that he knew what was going on, I was going on. 00:40:01.160 --> 00:40:02.710 So at a larger studio, he would have 00:40:02.710 --> 00:40:04.430 more face-to-face experience, but be 00:40:04.430 --> 00:40:07.860 working on a much smaller slice of the pie. 00:40:07.860 --> 00:40:11.030 Given that Indie budgets are zero, 00:40:11.030 --> 00:40:15.141 basically, I would not be able to bring in a paid internship 00:40:15.141 --> 00:40:15.640 intern. 00:40:15.640 --> 00:40:19.510 As much as I would like to, it's just not a reality. 00:40:19.510 --> 00:40:21.590 If I'm paying somebody money, I have 00:40:21.590 --> 00:40:23.690 to know that they are going to be able to produce 00:40:23.690 --> 00:40:25.390 incredibly high quality work. 00:40:25.390 --> 00:40:27.100 So unless you're very, very cheap 00:40:27.100 --> 00:40:31.160 and you already have an astonishingly good portfolio, 00:40:31.160 --> 00:40:33.312 it's not something I can afford. 00:40:33.312 --> 00:40:35.520 MICHAEL CARRIER: I would say one of the major reasons 00:40:35.520 --> 00:40:37.940 why we haven't brought in-- why Zap Dot hasn't 00:40:37.940 --> 00:40:40.770 brought in any interns right now is for the same reason. 00:40:40.770 --> 00:40:43.890 I would want to try to pay something, 00:40:43.890 --> 00:40:47.760 and I've not been able to be in a position 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:49.730 where I could bring someone in to give them 00:40:49.730 --> 00:40:53.090 a specific set of tasks to be able to work, 00:40:53.090 --> 00:40:56.900 or to have a project that is ready to do research 00:40:56.900 --> 00:40:57.770 and development. 00:40:57.770 --> 00:41:02.990 I think one thing that is great for interns 00:41:02.990 --> 00:41:04.820 that I'm very interested in is actually 00:41:04.820 --> 00:41:09.030 having them do prototypes to test ideas that the company has 00:41:09.030 --> 00:41:12.724 for future plans and to get a good feel for that. 00:41:12.724 --> 00:41:14.140 Because I think it could encompass 00:41:14.140 --> 00:41:16.681 lot of things that are great for interns-- being able to have 00:41:16.681 --> 00:41:18.740 a project, being able to deliver on things, 00:41:18.740 --> 00:41:21.510 and then also being able to have something 00:41:21.510 --> 00:41:24.180 that may have some progress going forward 00:41:24.180 --> 00:41:25.430 in a project that is released. 00:41:25.430 --> 00:41:26.971 JENNA HOSTEIN: That being said, a lot 00:41:26.971 --> 00:41:29.390 of times, we think about internships as kind of an all 00:41:29.390 --> 00:41:30.510 or nothing type thing. 00:41:30.510 --> 00:41:33.070 But a lot of us could use somebody 00:41:33.070 --> 00:41:36.320 a couple of hours a week to help out with things here or there. 00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:39.930 So if you genuinely are looking for the experience-- and again, 00:41:39.930 --> 00:41:42.969 I hate not paying people-- but if you do just 00:41:42.969 --> 00:41:45.010 want some experience working with an Indie studio 00:41:45.010 --> 00:41:48.262 and you're willing to give just a couple hours a week, come 00:41:48.262 --> 00:41:48.970 to Boston Indies. 00:41:48.970 --> 00:41:51.970 Comes to Boston Unity Group where we're all there. 00:41:51.970 --> 00:41:54.090 Come talk about the projects you're interested in 00:41:54.090 --> 00:41:56.030 and where you might be interested in helping. 00:41:56.030 --> 00:41:58.820 MICHAEL CARRIER: And those things can turn into paid work 00:41:58.820 --> 00:42:01.240 as well, as Jenna's intern did. 00:42:04.537 --> 00:42:06.421 PROFESSOR: Any last questions? 00:42:06.421 --> 00:42:07.762 Three or four. 00:42:07.762 --> 00:42:09.762 AUDIENCE: So both of you are located at the IGC, 00:42:09.762 --> 00:42:13.680 but the impression I'm getting is that not all the people 00:42:13.680 --> 00:42:17.718 you work with are physically in the IGC [INAUDIBLE]. 00:42:17.718 --> 00:42:19.972 Can we talk about how you balance that? 00:42:19.972 --> 00:42:22.065 And I guess [INAUDIBLE] the whole communications 00:42:22.065 --> 00:42:28.639 part of it, but what does that work flow look like with some 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:30.347 of your people right next to you and some 00:42:30.347 --> 00:42:31.993 of those people on Skype? 00:42:31.993 --> 00:42:32.993 JENNA HOSTEIN: Go ahead. 00:42:32.993 --> 00:42:34.917 MICHAEL CARRIER: Want me to go for that one? 00:42:34.917 --> 00:42:37.569 JENNA HOSTEIN: Go ahead. 00:42:37.569 --> 00:42:39.110 MICHAEL CARRIER: Many of the projects 00:42:39.110 --> 00:42:41.300 that I've done have been remote work. 00:42:41.300 --> 00:42:43.470 When I was doing Dancing With The Stars, 00:42:43.470 --> 00:42:45.010 that was a bunch of people. 00:42:45.010 --> 00:42:47.270 So New Hampshire, Oregon and Florida. 00:42:50.200 --> 00:42:54.180 Jack Lumber was Manitoba, Canada. 00:42:54.180 --> 00:42:57.470 Then my apartment, and then Alex's 00:42:57.470 --> 00:42:59.470 apartment as well, before we had the opportunity 00:42:59.470 --> 00:43:00.717 to work together. 00:43:00.717 --> 00:43:03.050 Typically what you need when you're working remotely is, 00:43:03.050 --> 00:43:05.990 you need a couple of things that are set in stone, essentially. 00:43:05.990 --> 00:43:08.534 You need a schedule, you need deadlines that people actually 00:43:08.534 --> 00:43:11.075 make, and you need to make sure that you have the people that 00:43:11.075 --> 00:43:13.470 are working on those projects be very, very good at time 00:43:13.470 --> 00:43:17.010 management in the sense that they know they have work to do. 00:43:17.010 --> 00:43:20.110 They don't necessarily need to have co-workers working around 00:43:20.110 --> 00:43:22.090 them. 00:43:22.090 --> 00:43:25.960 So what you find is, you find a lot of tools being reused. 00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:28.910 So Google Docs for shared collaboration, 00:43:28.910 --> 00:43:35.010 Trello for task management, and then Skype for group chats, 00:43:35.010 --> 00:43:35.530 I think. 00:43:35.530 --> 00:43:38.030 Or Google-- we've done Google Hangouts as well 00:43:38.030 --> 00:43:39.906 for different projects. 00:43:39.906 --> 00:43:41.280 But essentially, having something 00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:43.910 that allows the team to communicate with each other 00:43:43.910 --> 00:43:45.490 and knowing what the expectations 00:43:45.490 --> 00:43:48.260 are throughout the project. 00:43:48.260 --> 00:43:50.300 Especially when the contracting work is remote. 00:43:50.300 --> 00:43:54.360 Like, I'm going to do the work because I want to get paid. 00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:55.860 I guess it's just a matter of making 00:43:55.860 --> 00:43:58.980 sure you have really good work ethic and a schedule that you 00:43:58.980 --> 00:44:01.654 stick to or update as things change. 00:44:01.654 --> 00:44:03.070 JENNA HOSTEIN: Yeah, it definitely 00:44:03.070 --> 00:44:04.720 varies from person to person. 00:44:04.720 --> 00:44:06.990 But having the right tools to make your life easier 00:44:06.990 --> 00:44:07.570 is crucial. 00:44:07.570 --> 00:44:11.280 So I'm on Skype all the time, and I also use BitTorrent Sync, 00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:13.280 I think is what it's called-- where basically, I 00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:16.550 have a shared folder with my contractors. 00:44:16.550 --> 00:44:18.907 Any time they update a file on their computer, 00:44:18.907 --> 00:44:20.240 it'll be updated on my computer. 00:44:20.240 --> 00:44:21.820 So it's just a very, very easy way 00:44:21.820 --> 00:44:24.549 make sure we have the most recently updated files, 00:44:24.549 --> 00:44:26.090 and don't have to keep renaming them, 00:44:26.090 --> 00:44:29.266 like, final-- final two-- final, really final. 00:44:29.266 --> 00:44:30.640 It just keeps all nice and clear. 00:44:30.640 --> 00:44:33.534 So having the right tools-- just as a few examples, 00:44:33.534 --> 00:44:34.950 because that'll probably be easier 00:44:34.950 --> 00:44:37.860 talk about with Luigi, who is the artist-- we would 00:44:37.860 --> 00:44:40.530 sit down and talk either in person or on Skype 00:44:40.530 --> 00:44:43.265 before every new big major task. 00:44:43.265 --> 00:44:45.390 That made sure that we were both on the right page. 00:44:45.390 --> 00:44:47.410 We both had a similar thing in our heads, 00:44:47.410 --> 00:44:50.880 and any design requirements, I was able to specify. 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.090 He was able to ask questions about some of the things 00:44:53.090 --> 00:44:54.660 I would forget about. 00:44:54.660 --> 00:44:57.990 So making sure you have those regular face-to-face check-ins 00:44:57.990 --> 00:45:01.450 every time you're starting something new is crucial. 00:45:01.450 --> 00:45:06.470 Emma, who is my social media guru, works four hours a week 00:45:06.470 --> 00:45:08.720 and she basically keeps our Twitter and Facebook pages 00:45:08.720 --> 00:45:10.300 updated. 00:45:10.300 --> 00:45:13.660 We check in regularly, if there are any sort of campaigns 00:45:13.660 --> 00:45:14.660 that I want to kick off. 00:45:14.660 --> 00:45:16.652 But part of the reason I brought her on board 00:45:16.652 --> 00:45:18.860 is because every time I would sit down with a Twitter 00:45:18.860 --> 00:45:21.950 account, I'd be like, I have no idea what I'm supposed to say. 00:45:21.950 --> 00:45:23.950 Like, still working on the game. 00:45:23.950 --> 00:45:26.450 And so her job is to come up with creative ways 00:45:26.450 --> 00:45:29.200 to be like, just a reminder, the game is still out there 00:45:29.200 --> 00:45:30.470 and you should purchase it! 00:45:30.470 --> 00:45:32.930 In a way, it sounds like something people 00:45:32.930 --> 00:45:34.760 should be excited about. 00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:36.890 So her job really is to work a little bit more 00:45:36.890 --> 00:45:39.174 independently and come up with that stuff on her own, 00:45:39.174 --> 00:45:41.090 but then there are some times, like, I totally 00:45:41.090 --> 00:45:43.864 want to steal this NASA ABCs thing-- 00:45:43.864 --> 00:45:45.530 and so I'm going to talk to her about it 00:45:45.530 --> 00:45:47.470 and plan that out and put that together. 00:45:47.470 --> 00:45:49.197 So she does a lot of independent work, 00:45:49.197 --> 00:45:51.280 but then any major projects, we check in for that. 00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:53.124 MICHAEL CARRIER: Not steal-- appropriate. 00:45:53.124 --> 00:45:54.040 JENNA HOSTEIN: Borrow. 00:45:54.040 --> 00:45:54.540 Borrow. 00:45:58.549 --> 00:46:00.340 PROFESSOR: Thank you so much for your time. 00:46:00.340 --> 00:46:01.381 JENNA HOSTEIN: All right. 00:46:01.381 --> 00:46:02.204 Thank you. 00:46:02.204 --> 00:46:05.225 [APPLAUSE] 00:46:05.225 --> 00:46:07.725 PROFESSOR: You can go ahead and keep the microphone on, just 00:46:07.725 --> 00:46:08.800 in case. 00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:11.577 So we've got a five minute break. 00:46:11.577 --> 00:46:13.910 Come back down here and sign in if you haven't signed in 00:46:13.910 --> 00:46:15.780 for class yet. 00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:18.030 They're available to play your games if you are 00:46:18.030 --> 00:46:19.260 ready for that sort of thing. 00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:23.950 So if you are, find them, bring them to your computer, 00:46:23.950 --> 00:46:25.094 and have them play. 00:46:25.094 --> 00:46:27.510 MICHAEL CARRIER: We'll leave a bunch of our business cards 00:46:27.510 --> 00:46:28.490 up here. 00:46:28.490 --> 00:46:30.390 If you want to send a portfolio, a resume, 00:46:30.390 --> 00:46:32.134 just get some feedback, please feel free. 00:46:32.134 --> 00:46:33.800 I'll answer any email that comes my way. 00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:35.070 PROFESSOR: And I'm going to email this out to them, 00:46:35.070 --> 00:46:35.970 I haven't done it yet, but there's 00:46:35.970 --> 00:46:37.390 a party coming up, right? 00:46:37.390 --> 00:46:37.820 MICHAEL CARRIER: Yes. 00:46:37.820 --> 00:46:38.570 PROFESSOR: Can you mention that? 00:46:38.570 --> 00:46:39.486 MICHAEL CARRIER: Yeah. 00:46:39.486 --> 00:46:41.090 The Indie Game Collective-- there's 00:46:41.090 --> 00:46:42.381 actually two parties coming up. 00:46:42.381 --> 00:46:43.990 PROFESSOR: Mention both. 00:46:43.990 --> 00:46:45.740 MICHAEL CARRIER: The Indie Game Collective 00:46:45.740 --> 00:46:50.280 is having a party at the Aeronaut Brewery in Somerville. 00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:54.030 It's in between Porter and Union. 00:46:54.030 --> 00:46:57.660 It is on December 11, starts at 5:30, goes until 11:30. 00:46:57.660 --> 00:46:59.457 It's Thursday, so you'll probably 00:46:59.457 --> 00:47:01.082 have to leave a little early so you can 00:47:01.082 --> 00:47:03.550 get to class early on Friday. 00:47:03.550 --> 00:47:07.282 But the-- ah, no one laughed, even politely. 00:47:07.282 --> 00:47:09.490 AUDIENCE: I think that's after the last day of class. 00:47:09.490 --> 00:47:10.490 MICHAEL CARRIER: Oh, OK. 00:47:10.490 --> 00:47:11.800 Cool. 00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:15.220 So the collective is doing a bunch of art 00:47:15.220 --> 00:47:16.910 and interactive installations. 00:47:16.910 --> 00:47:19.950 It's games that are not our own games, 00:47:19.950 --> 00:47:21.450 but they're just fun things that we 00:47:21.450 --> 00:47:25.090 wanted to make for the sake of art, 00:47:25.090 --> 00:47:27.070 not necessarily making money. 00:47:27.070 --> 00:47:32.390 Bit Fest Boston will also have 20 old school arcade cabinets 00:47:32.390 --> 00:47:34.660 there. 00:47:34.660 --> 00:47:39.640 We will have a funk band and a food truck 00:47:39.640 --> 00:47:45.660 that has gluten-free, vegan, and non-alcoholic options as well. 00:47:45.660 --> 00:47:49.930 On the Monday following, which I think is December 15th, 00:47:49.930 --> 00:47:54.260 Boston Indies is having their holiday festivus 00:47:54.260 --> 00:47:57.070 where people will be just playing games. 00:47:57.070 --> 00:47:58.714 It'll be some local Indies who'll 00:47:58.714 --> 00:48:00.380 be demoing some games that they've made, 00:48:00.380 --> 00:48:02.470 but we'll also just be playing really fun games 00:48:02.470 --> 00:48:05.800 like JS Joust or Hokra. 00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:07.700 Jenna did an Artemis game last year. 00:48:07.700 --> 00:48:10.577 So who knows what type of table top or digital games 00:48:10.577 --> 00:48:11.160 will be there? 00:48:11.160 --> 00:48:12.410 But it'll be a lot of fun too. 00:48:12.410 --> 00:48:18.240 And that's going to be-- that is in the new Bocoup office. 00:48:18.240 --> 00:48:20.260 Go to bostonindies.com and join the community 00:48:20.260 --> 00:48:23.180 in terms of finding out more information about that. 00:48:23.180 --> 00:48:24.550 I'll be sending it out shortly. 00:48:24.550 --> 00:48:26.470 PROFESSOR: Thanks. 00:48:26.470 --> 00:48:27.860 So take five minutes. 00:48:27.860 --> 00:48:32.526 2:05, 2:10 we're going to take that thing away. 00:48:32.526 --> 00:48:34.005 All right? 00:48:34.005 --> 00:48:35.748 [CHATTER]