WEBVTT 00:00:00.060 --> 00:00:02.500 The following content is provided under a Creative 00:00:02.500 --> 00:00:04.019 Commons license. 00:00:04.019 --> 00:00:06.360 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:06.360 --> 00:00:10.730 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 00:00:10.730 --> 00:00:13.330 To make a donation or view additional materials 00:00:13.330 --> 00:00:17.215 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:17.215 --> 00:00:17.840 at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:21.980 --> 00:00:23.130 PROFESSOR 1: OK. 00:00:23.130 --> 00:00:27.450 Just a few announcements before we get into the lecture today. 00:00:27.450 --> 00:00:30.680 So the structure for today-- our lecture, two hours' 00:00:30.680 --> 00:00:33.630 work in your groups. 00:00:33.630 --> 00:00:37.825 We have, unfortunately, Elle, the grad student 00:00:37.825 --> 00:00:39.570 who's working with the heat wave, who 00:00:39.570 --> 00:00:42.050 would be using the heat wave game, is sick today. 00:00:42.050 --> 00:00:43.930 So she won't be able to come in. 00:00:43.930 --> 00:00:47.430 But I'm working on rescheduling a time for her to come in. 00:00:47.430 --> 00:00:51.370 What I'd love to do is if we can get her a web link of the heat 00:00:51.370 --> 00:00:54.020 wave game that she could then give you feedback on, 00:00:54.020 --> 00:00:57.160 that might be good for you all. 00:00:57.160 --> 00:00:59.800 For the rest of the class, we've got Pablo in today. 00:00:59.800 --> 00:01:02.375 He talked to the snap team already. 00:01:02.375 --> 00:01:04.000 Is he going to talk to you again today? 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:06.600 Or are you guys all on the right page with him? 00:01:06.600 --> 00:01:08.520 STUDENT: It'd be nice to show him the game. 00:01:08.520 --> 00:01:09.240 PROFESSOR 1: OK. 00:01:09.240 --> 00:01:10.823 Oh, you didn't show him the game then? 00:01:10.823 --> 00:01:12.857 OK, cool, cool. 00:01:12.857 --> 00:01:14.440 What I'd like him to do is take a look 00:01:14.440 --> 00:01:18.780 at the forecast-based future game 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:20.685 today if he can at 2 o'clock. 00:01:20.685 --> 00:01:22.310 I'm going to just show him a build, get 00:01:22.310 --> 00:01:24.240 some feedback from him. 00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:26.210 And then he'll take a look at the snap game. 00:01:26.210 --> 00:01:28.800 And then if he's got time, the two cholera games. 00:01:28.800 --> 00:01:31.130 He can take a look at those. 00:01:31.130 --> 00:01:32.960 And again, if you want to give him 00:01:32.960 --> 00:01:35.360 web links to playable versions of the games, 00:01:35.360 --> 00:01:37.360 just send them to the Video Game Bosses list. 00:01:37.360 --> 00:01:40.170 And I'll forward along. 00:01:40.170 --> 00:01:45.690 Other announcements-- I'm going to email this 00:01:45.690 --> 00:01:47.620 to the announcements list later today. 00:01:47.620 --> 00:01:52.230 This Friday there is a free conference workshop thing 00:01:52.230 --> 00:01:57.310 going on at a hotel, I think, in Boston. 00:01:57.310 --> 00:01:59.372 But it's being run by Epic Games, about Unreal. 00:01:59.372 --> 00:02:01.580 So they're going to do a bunch of different workshops 00:02:01.580 --> 00:02:04.400 from about 2:00 to 5:00 and end the day with a networking 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:05.520 party. 00:02:05.520 --> 00:02:08.119 So if you're interested in using the Unreal engine and all 00:02:08.119 --> 00:02:09.910 the different new things about that engine, 00:02:09.910 --> 00:02:10.979 they'll be running that. 00:02:10.979 --> 00:02:14.390 They're also going to be on campus Tuesday at 5:00 PM, 00:02:14.390 --> 00:02:15.710 so Tuesday, November 18. 00:02:15.710 --> 00:02:19.280 That can be found at the GameLab website. 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:23.980 And they'll be talking about Blueprint, a way 00:02:23.980 --> 00:02:28.690 to do scripting in Unreal that's kind of similar to some things 00:02:28.690 --> 00:02:31.067 I've seen for Unity, but it's baked into Unreal. 00:02:31.067 --> 00:02:32.900 And if you used previous versions of Unreal, 00:02:32.900 --> 00:02:37.980 I think it's related to Akismet, if you used that tool before. 00:02:37.980 --> 00:02:41.470 Otherwise, upcoming guests we have at the class that are 00:02:41.470 --> 00:02:45.950 different from the syllabus-- on Monday we're going to have two 00:02:45.950 --> 00:02:49.265 writers and talking with Drew, doing a little panel and then 00:02:49.265 --> 00:02:52.810 a Q&A with y'all talking about different ways of looking 00:02:52.810 --> 00:02:55.760 at writing for games that I think would be very directly 00:02:55.760 --> 00:02:58.940 related to at least two of the games that I've seen. 00:02:58.940 --> 00:03:01.820 Because yours was a very dialogue-driven game, yeah? 00:03:01.820 --> 00:03:05.310 And then the Animal Crossing kind of game, I imagine, 00:03:05.310 --> 00:03:06.809 would be really useful for you all. 00:03:06.809 --> 00:03:08.600 Probably useful for the other two, as well, 00:03:08.600 --> 00:03:11.120 but those are the ones that first came to my mind 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:13.960 when I was scheduling that one. 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.194 And then on the 19th, we have Blizzard coming in, right? 00:03:17.194 --> 00:03:18.610 PROFESSOR 2: I think that's right. 00:03:18.610 --> 00:03:19.790 PROFESSOR 1: Yeah. 00:03:19.790 --> 00:03:22.470 So Wednesday night, Blizzard's going to come in. 00:03:22.470 --> 00:03:26.093 And it's teams from Heroes of the Storm? 00:03:26.093 --> 00:03:27.092 PROFESSOR 2: I think so. 00:03:27.092 --> 00:03:27.592 But-- 00:03:27.592 --> 00:03:29.967 PROFESSOR 1: But yeah, we're not quite sure exactly who's 00:03:29.967 --> 00:03:31.290 going to be there for that. 00:03:31.290 --> 00:03:32.206 But we talked to them. 00:03:32.206 --> 00:03:36.010 And we requested either Heroes of the Storm or Hearthstone. 00:03:36.010 --> 00:03:38.110 So one of those groups, we'll begin 00:03:38.110 --> 00:03:39.790 to talk about their production process. 00:03:39.790 --> 00:03:41.600 And you can ask them things about what 00:03:41.600 --> 00:03:42.850 it's like to work at Blizzard. 00:03:45.350 --> 00:03:48.380 That's everything I've got. 00:03:48.380 --> 00:03:51.410 Yeah, so I'm going to bring it over to-- you're wired? 00:03:51.410 --> 00:03:51.920 Cool. 00:03:51.920 --> 00:03:53.420 Great. 00:03:53.420 --> 00:03:58.800 PROFESSOR 2: So when I went over to GDC Next just last week, 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:00.210 I met Richard. 00:04:00.210 --> 00:04:02.060 Actually, he's been to all that before. 00:04:02.060 --> 00:04:04.310 And he gave this talk on game audio. 00:04:04.310 --> 00:04:05.869 And then I remembered, wait a minute, 00:04:05.869 --> 00:04:08.160 there's a talk on game audio that's coming up in class. 00:04:08.160 --> 00:04:09.920 And I was just going to fake it. 00:04:09.920 --> 00:04:12.566 And then I heard his talk and realized maybe 00:04:12.566 --> 00:04:14.440 he should be the one talking to you, instead. 00:04:14.440 --> 00:04:16.790 So I invited him and Andy Forsberg, 00:04:16.790 --> 00:04:18.940 who's his partner at Hexany Audio. 00:04:18.940 --> 00:04:19.670 Let's see. 00:04:19.670 --> 00:04:22.220 You'll see the name of the company come up 00:04:22.220 --> 00:04:23.990 in the next slide. 00:04:23.990 --> 00:04:26.390 And they do professional sound design 00:04:26.390 --> 00:04:28.200 and audio design and music. 00:04:28.200 --> 00:04:31.170 That includes things like sound effects, 00:04:31.170 --> 00:04:33.740 as well as scoring and also advising companies 00:04:33.740 --> 00:04:35.790 on things like the technology that they're using. 00:04:35.790 --> 00:04:37.248 And he's going to talk a little bit 00:04:37.248 --> 00:04:41.830 about how to do good audio on a budget, as well as just things 00:04:41.830 --> 00:04:44.310 to think about in your audio design of your own game. 00:04:44.310 --> 00:04:45.900 So I'm going to hand it over to you. 00:04:45.900 --> 00:04:48.140 And thank you very much for speaking today. 00:04:48.140 --> 00:04:48.470 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:04:48.470 --> 00:04:49.180 Well, thanks so much. 00:04:49.180 --> 00:04:49.888 Happy to be here. 00:04:49.888 --> 00:04:52.480 Just curious-- so the class, I'm wondering, what level is it? 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.130 Is it more introductory, advanced? 00:04:55.130 --> 00:04:56.860 What's the focus? 00:04:56.860 --> 00:04:58.130 PROFESSOR 2: Intermediate. 00:04:58.130 --> 00:04:59.960 So they're making video games. 00:04:59.960 --> 00:05:02.309 But it's a class that actually has prerequisites. 00:05:02.309 --> 00:05:04.850 So they needed to take another classes, either in game design 00:05:04.850 --> 00:05:06.180 or in programming, before they came here. 00:05:06.180 --> 00:05:06.971 RICHARD LUDLOW: OK. 00:05:06.971 --> 00:05:07.590 Cool, cool. 00:05:07.590 --> 00:05:10.240 So I'm just curious-- show of hands, how many people 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:12.090 are planning to go out into the world 00:05:12.090 --> 00:05:14.040 after you graduate and become game designers, 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:16.060 game developers? 00:05:16.060 --> 00:05:16.560 Anyone? 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:17.059 Anyone? 00:05:17.059 --> 00:05:18.115 OK, cool, cool. 00:05:18.115 --> 00:05:20.080 Nice. 00:05:20.080 --> 00:05:20.580 That's cool. 00:05:20.580 --> 00:05:21.454 ANDY FORSBERG: Sweet. 00:05:21.454 --> 00:05:22.174 No, very nice. 00:05:22.174 --> 00:05:23.090 RICHARD LUDLOW: Great. 00:05:23.090 --> 00:05:26.210 So yeah, we're going to talk to you about music 00:05:26.210 --> 00:05:30.950 and sound in games and then give a little bit of very practical 00:05:30.950 --> 00:05:32.916 advice about working with composers 00:05:32.916 --> 00:05:34.290 and working with sound designers. 00:05:34.290 --> 00:05:38.371 And so that's the situation most of you will probably be in. 00:05:38.371 --> 00:05:40.370 So we'll give you a little overview of ourselves 00:05:40.370 --> 00:05:41.110 in a second. 00:05:41.110 --> 00:05:42.901 But if you want to go on to the next slide, 00:05:42.901 --> 00:05:47.280 we're going to talk about three key areas. 00:05:47.280 --> 00:05:51.050 Yeah, we're just going to tag team this. 00:05:51.050 --> 00:05:53.130 So the three things we're going to talk about 00:05:53.130 --> 00:05:55.694 are, number one, Interactivity. 00:05:55.694 --> 00:05:57.360 So we're going to talk to you about what 00:05:57.360 --> 00:05:59.860 makes game audio different than film audio 00:05:59.860 --> 00:06:01.740 and why you should care about it. 00:06:01.740 --> 00:06:03.790 And then in Agreements, we're going 00:06:03.790 --> 00:06:07.880 to talk about contracts and what that looks like for you hiring 00:06:07.880 --> 00:06:10.330 a composer or a sound designer, which is really most often 00:06:10.330 --> 00:06:11.770 the case with an indy game. 00:06:11.770 --> 00:06:14.130 And then lastly, we'll talk about money and budgets 00:06:14.130 --> 00:06:19.030 and how much hiring one of us audio guys takes. 00:06:19.030 --> 00:06:23.910 So a little bit about us-- I'm Richard Ludlow, again. 00:06:23.910 --> 00:06:26.090 And I'm the audio director of our company. 00:06:26.090 --> 00:06:28.690 And Andy is the music director. 00:06:28.690 --> 00:06:31.580 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah we both went to school in Boston, actually. 00:06:31.580 --> 00:06:33.371 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, just across the river 00:06:33.371 --> 00:06:36.610 over at Berkeley and did their game audio thing. 00:06:36.610 --> 00:06:39.420 And now we started the company Hexany Audio. 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:42.830 And basically, music, sound, and dialogue, as well as 00:06:42.830 --> 00:06:46.265 implementation services are what we do with our clients. 00:06:46.265 --> 00:06:48.640 ANDY FORSBERG: And we're based in Los Angeles, obviously. 00:06:48.640 --> 00:06:50.330 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, based in LA. 00:06:50.330 --> 00:06:56.360 And we have experience working on larger AAA console 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:00.750 games, lots of mobile indie things, so a really wide range. 00:07:00.750 --> 00:07:02.680 And we do film and commercial media, as well. 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:06.200 But our focus really is on games and interactivity 00:07:06.200 --> 00:07:08.580 and the technology that drives that. 00:07:08.580 --> 00:07:11.740 So yeah, without further ado, if you want 00:07:11.740 --> 00:07:15.567 to jump ahead to The Basics. 00:07:15.567 --> 00:07:16.900 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:16.900 --> 00:07:23.240 So music in games is all about the dynamic experience 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:26.660 and player input in the game and how the music and sound 00:07:26.660 --> 00:07:27.850 effects adapt around that. 00:07:27.850 --> 00:07:30.370 Obviously, it's much different than linear media, 00:07:30.370 --> 00:07:32.410 such as film, TV, et cetera. 00:07:32.410 --> 00:07:34.225 When you watch a film, that same explosion 00:07:34.225 --> 00:07:36.400 is going to happen in the same point every time. 00:07:36.400 --> 00:07:39.040 So obviously, with games we have to change that. 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:40.390 Because games are different. 00:07:40.390 --> 00:07:42.950 We have to make it adaptive to what's going on. 00:07:42.950 --> 00:07:47.190 So there's four major parts to audio in a game usually. 00:07:47.190 --> 00:07:48.030 There's the music. 00:07:48.030 --> 00:07:49.890 There's the sound and the dialogue. 00:07:49.890 --> 00:07:51.520 But the major part of this, again, 00:07:51.520 --> 00:07:53.600 is the implementation into the game. 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:55.890 If we write amazing music or sound effects 00:07:55.890 --> 00:07:58.690 or we have the coolest voiceover artists in the world 00:07:58.690 --> 00:08:00.940 and we get them to do that stuff for our game-- 00:08:00.940 --> 00:08:03.884 if we implement it incorrectly or the developer doesn't 00:08:03.884 --> 00:08:05.550 do such a great job because there wasn't 00:08:05.550 --> 00:08:08.360 a dialogue between us, then all the stuff 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:10.140 on the left side, those three things, 00:08:10.140 --> 00:08:11.570 almost don't even matter. 00:08:11.570 --> 00:08:14.320 So it's all about how it gets put in the game, 00:08:14.320 --> 00:08:15.515 as well as how it's crafted. 00:08:15.515 --> 00:08:17.140 RICHARD LUDLOW: And we're going to talk 00:08:17.140 --> 00:08:18.764 about that in the Interactivity section 00:08:18.764 --> 00:08:20.700 if you're like, what is this implementation 00:08:20.700 --> 00:08:22.240 witchcraft we speak of? 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:23.270 ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly. 00:08:23.270 --> 00:08:23.780 RICHARD LUDLOW: Anyway. 00:08:23.780 --> 00:08:24.420 ANDY FORSBERG: Next slide? 00:08:24.420 --> 00:08:25.295 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:08:25.295 --> 00:08:27.559 So The Importance of Audio-- really talking 00:08:27.559 --> 00:08:29.350 about why you guys should care about audio. 00:08:29.350 --> 00:08:32.287 Because so often you think, OK, I've got this mobile game. 00:08:32.287 --> 00:08:33.620 I'm going to shut off the audio. 00:08:33.620 --> 00:08:34.500 Who cares about it? 00:08:34.500 --> 00:08:37.880 But the depth that it adds is really important. 00:08:37.880 --> 00:08:41.574 And we'd just like to touch on three key areas of why 00:08:41.574 --> 00:08:43.990 music and sound is so important in games, if you want to-- 00:08:43.990 --> 00:08:44.823 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah. 00:08:44.823 --> 00:08:48.020 The first thing, obviously, the emotional factor. 00:08:48.020 --> 00:08:51.440 And you can't get around that. 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:54.340 With everything else, basically, audio 00:08:54.340 --> 00:08:56.710 goes straight to the center of your brain 00:08:56.710 --> 00:08:58.830 that controls that stuff. 00:08:58.830 --> 00:09:01.730 It just skips everything else and stimulates that. 00:09:01.730 --> 00:09:05.920 So obviously, when we were kids we 00:09:05.920 --> 00:09:09.150 turned the music off of a game or turned the music off 00:09:09.150 --> 00:09:10.650 of a film, and we'd realize that we 00:09:10.650 --> 00:09:12.650 weren't having those emotional responses that we 00:09:12.650 --> 00:09:14.320 did when it was on. 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:17.295 So obviously, emotion is a huge part of what we do. 00:09:17.295 --> 00:09:18.170 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:09:18.170 --> 00:09:20.470 And that's a chemical response. 00:09:20.470 --> 00:09:24.570 Like Andy said, it's actually eliciting-- just 00:09:24.570 --> 00:09:26.860 emphasize again-- a chemical response. 00:09:26.860 --> 00:09:30.570 Visuals do not trigger these emotional processing centers. 00:09:30.570 --> 00:09:32.280 It's sound and music. 00:09:32.280 --> 00:09:36.040 That's stimulating parts of your brain that are different 00:09:36.040 --> 00:09:37.920 and actually creating the emotion. 00:09:37.920 --> 00:09:39.440 It's pretty amazing. 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:42.930 At least we like to think so. [LAUGHS] Anyway, cool. 00:09:42.930 --> 00:09:45.050 So the next one is Function. 00:09:45.050 --> 00:09:46.630 And this isn't a great term. 00:09:46.630 --> 00:09:52.100 But audio, it supports the ability 00:09:52.100 --> 00:09:55.570 for the player to really absorb a lot of the game information. 00:09:55.570 --> 00:09:59.330 So when I say "function," it has the function 00:09:59.330 --> 00:10:00.950 of giving you information and also 00:10:00.950 --> 00:10:03.134 the function of telling you what's going on 00:10:03.134 --> 00:10:04.300 with regards to your action. 00:10:04.300 --> 00:10:06.460 So for example, you're walking down a hallway. 00:10:06.460 --> 00:10:12.329 And there's a guy up ahead that you hear maybe walking. 00:10:12.329 --> 00:10:14.120 And you know, OK, there's a guard up ahead. 00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:16.240 And then maybe your oxygen tank is running low. 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:17.531 And you've got a little "beep." 00:10:17.531 --> 00:10:19.739 And your health is maybe at 50%. 00:10:19.739 --> 00:10:21.780 Maybe there's an alarm going off in the building. 00:10:21.780 --> 00:10:23.370 You hear a guy in the next room. 00:10:26.301 --> 00:10:27.800 You hear all these different things. 00:10:27.800 --> 00:10:31.191 And all of that is information that's being processed and sent 00:10:31.191 --> 00:10:31.690 to you. 00:10:31.690 --> 00:10:33.640 And you're able to absorb it all instantly 00:10:33.640 --> 00:10:36.550 without needing to think and see text on the screen that says, 00:10:36.550 --> 00:10:40.720 oh, OK, I'm at 50% oxygen. There's three enemies nearby. 00:10:40.720 --> 00:10:43.770 It's getting dark out because I hear the crickets. 00:10:43.770 --> 00:10:47.580 This is just stuff that your brain subconsciously absorbs. 00:10:47.580 --> 00:10:49.800 So it's functional in that it provides 00:10:49.800 --> 00:10:54.410 that information for players in an entirely new dimension that 00:10:54.410 --> 00:10:55.480 is subconscious to them. 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.452 So you can convey lots of subconscious information. 00:10:58.452 --> 00:10:59.410 ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly. 00:10:59.410 --> 00:11:00.020 RICHARD LUDLOW: And then also, it's 00:11:00.020 --> 00:11:01.640 that feel-good factor for games. 00:11:01.640 --> 00:11:04.690 So you punch a guy. 00:11:04.690 --> 00:11:06.640 Oh, well, hold up on that maybe. 00:11:06.640 --> 00:11:08.400 But yeah, you punch a guy. 00:11:08.400 --> 00:11:13.430 And it feels good in the game. 00:11:13.430 --> 00:11:18.680 And that is because of that trigger, the sound meshing 00:11:18.680 --> 00:11:20.860 with the psychological. 00:11:20.860 --> 00:11:22.530 Anyway, so the sounds we were talking 00:11:22.530 --> 00:11:24.613 about that are memorable-- I know you just played, 00:11:24.613 --> 00:11:26.570 what was that, the Zelda sound or something? 00:11:26.570 --> 00:11:27.430 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah. 00:11:27.430 --> 00:11:29.280 RICHARD LUDLOW: I couldn't quite hear. 00:11:29.280 --> 00:11:30.010 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, it obviously 00:11:30.010 --> 00:11:32.240 has to be memorable with game audio, as well. 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:34.760 And yeah, you played the Zelda one. 00:11:34.760 --> 00:11:37.947 Think of the countdown for Mario Kart 00:11:37.947 --> 00:11:40.530 where it makes you want to hit A really fast and get everyone, 00:11:40.530 --> 00:11:44.666 obviously-- but there's countless examples. 00:11:44.666 --> 00:11:45.290 We might have-- 00:11:45.290 --> 00:11:47.775 [VIDEO GAME SOUND] 00:11:50.055 --> 00:11:51.930 RICHARD LUDLOW: You could just play them all. 00:11:51.930 --> 00:11:54.320 Just play them all. 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:56.048 ANDY FORSBERG: Let's see. 00:11:56.048 --> 00:11:58.172 RICHARD LUDLOW: I'm not sure if you've played them. 00:11:58.172 --> 00:11:59.255 But I'll just talk about-- 00:11:59.255 --> 00:12:01.410 [COUNTDOWN SOUNDS] 00:12:03.920 --> 00:12:06.720 So these are really iconic sounds. 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:08.770 And I think the Mario coin sound is next. 00:12:08.770 --> 00:12:10.243 Let's see. 00:12:10.243 --> 00:12:11.720 [COIN SOUND] 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:15.930 So that sound has been in an entire generation of games. 00:12:15.930 --> 00:12:18.650 And the Zelda sound, when you hear that, 00:12:18.650 --> 00:12:20.890 that's extremely rewarding for the player. 00:12:20.890 --> 00:12:22.560 It's extremely memorable. 00:12:22.560 --> 00:12:25.710 Sound is burned into a player's conscience 00:12:25.710 --> 00:12:28.180 in a way that doesn't necessarily 00:12:28.180 --> 00:12:29.357 happen with visuals. 00:12:29.357 --> 00:12:31.940 You hear that. [SNAPS] And then you hear the achievement sound 00:12:31.940 --> 00:12:32.470 that we played. 00:12:32.470 --> 00:12:34.053 And it's like, oh, I've unlocked that. 00:12:34.053 --> 00:12:37.870 There's this stimulating reward response. 00:12:37.870 --> 00:12:40.066 And so good sound and bad sound is going 00:12:40.066 --> 00:12:41.190 to stick with your players. 00:12:41.190 --> 00:12:43.540 And it can really help set that game 00:12:43.540 --> 00:12:47.070 apart so that later on the players 00:12:47.070 --> 00:12:51.500 are remembering your game in a very unique way. 00:12:51.500 --> 00:12:52.180 Anyway-- 00:12:52.180 --> 00:12:52.670 ANDY FORSBERG: Next slide. 00:12:52.670 --> 00:12:53.970 RICHARD LUDLOW: We'll move on to the real stuff now. 00:12:53.970 --> 00:12:55.360 So Interactivity. 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:56.630 That was kind of the preface. 00:12:56.630 --> 00:12:58.370 So the first section that we talk about 00:12:58.370 --> 00:13:02.030 is it that implementation and how that works in games. 00:13:02.030 --> 00:13:04.460 And that interactivity is a huge part of that. 00:13:04.460 --> 00:13:07.030 So if you want to jump ahead to the next slide-- 00:13:07.030 --> 00:13:08.010 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah. 00:13:08.010 --> 00:13:11.005 So on the music side of things, obviously, if you want music 00:13:11.005 --> 00:13:14.270 that changes dynamically based on what the player is doing, 00:13:14.270 --> 00:13:15.820 whether he's walking into a field 00:13:15.820 --> 00:13:18.650 and staying there for five hours because he left it on 00:13:18.650 --> 00:13:21.550 to go make a sandwich or because he's walking in to buy 00:13:21.550 --> 00:13:23.190 something from a shopkeeper. 00:13:23.190 --> 00:13:24.130 So how do we do that? 00:13:24.130 --> 00:13:25.546 There are several different things 00:13:25.546 --> 00:13:29.120 we can do, whether a player's going into battle, et cetera. 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:31.640 We can use one system called layering, which Richard's going 00:13:31.640 --> 00:13:33.910 to talk about in another slide. 00:13:33.910 --> 00:13:35.955 We're going to talk about crossfading. 00:13:35.955 --> 00:13:38.330 And then we're going to give you an example of branching, 00:13:38.330 --> 00:13:39.265 as well. 00:13:39.265 --> 00:13:40.640 And then there's also generative. 00:13:40.640 --> 00:13:41.681 And these are just a few. 00:13:41.681 --> 00:13:46.620 There are so many options that we can use to implement music 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:48.005 in a cool, interactive way. 00:13:48.005 --> 00:13:48.880 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:13:48.880 --> 00:13:50.809 So let's jump over to one of the examples. 00:13:50.809 --> 00:13:52.100 And go ahead and throw that up. 00:13:52.100 --> 00:13:53.900 Don't hit the Play button quite yet. 00:13:53.900 --> 00:13:57.390 So you can hit the next slide. 00:13:57.390 --> 00:13:58.621 And it'll pop up the graph. 00:13:58.621 --> 00:13:59.120 All right. 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:04.830 So what you're seeing here is the idea of a layered score. 00:14:04.830 --> 00:14:08.140 So in this one, this is a piece of music I wrote for a game 00:14:08.140 --> 00:14:10.820 where there's three different intensity layers. 00:14:10.820 --> 00:14:14.337 And you're going to hear a first one that's very low intensity. 00:14:14.337 --> 00:14:16.670 And then you're going to hear these other layers come in 00:14:16.670 --> 00:14:21.010 on top as maybe the player starts to go 00:14:21.010 --> 00:14:22.210 into an area with enemies. 00:14:22.210 --> 00:14:25.010 And then they go into an area where they're in battle. 00:14:25.010 --> 00:14:28.031 And you'll hear the music stack in a very dynamic way. 00:14:28.031 --> 00:14:29.280 Anyway, go ahead and hit play. 00:14:29.280 --> 00:14:30.289 Let's see. 00:14:30.289 --> 00:14:34.201 [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:14:34.201 --> 00:14:35.668 So that low intensity. 00:14:41.550 --> 00:14:43.778 Players done some [INAUDIBLE]. 00:14:50.280 --> 00:14:52.490 The second layer's going to come in on top. 00:14:56.945 --> 00:15:00.410 [MUSIC INTENSIFIES] 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:11.300 You hear all three layers, though, I think. 00:15:15.770 --> 00:15:19.164 Back to just the first two. 00:15:19.164 --> 00:15:20.330 And then just the first one. 00:15:20.330 --> 00:15:21.670 So you can see this as well. 00:15:21.670 --> 00:15:24.510 You could hear the layers fading out in and between one another. 00:15:24.510 --> 00:15:26.340 But it was a very dynamic experience. 00:15:26.340 --> 00:15:28.150 So this is where we'd take the music, 00:15:28.150 --> 00:15:30.540 and we'd specifically craft it and write it 00:15:30.540 --> 00:15:33.940 so that these things could stack and be triggered dynamically 00:15:33.940 --> 00:15:35.690 based on whatever the player is doing. 00:15:35.690 --> 00:15:39.517 So let's jump ahead to the next slide. 00:15:39.517 --> 00:15:41.100 So this is one more example-- and this 00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:44.030 is the last one we'll show you for music-- 00:15:44.030 --> 00:15:48.130 that deals with the way that music can move dynamically 00:15:48.130 --> 00:15:49.170 between states again. 00:15:49.170 --> 00:15:51.610 So yeah, so we've got the low, medium, high. 00:15:51.610 --> 00:15:53.580 But this time, we've broken it out 00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:55.580 into smaller, little chunks. 00:15:55.580 --> 00:15:57.220 So the player will do something. 00:15:57.220 --> 00:15:59.820 And the musical will actually wait until the musical point, 00:15:59.820 --> 00:16:01.720 like the next bar or beat. 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:05.100 And then it will begin a transitional segment 00:16:05.100 --> 00:16:06.862 into the next level intensities. 00:16:06.862 --> 00:16:09.070 And this is going to be a much more dynamic and fluid 00:16:09.070 --> 00:16:10.520 experience than the layering. 00:16:10.520 --> 00:16:14.730 So go ahead and hit Play. 00:16:14.730 --> 00:16:16.940 [AMBIENT MUSIC] 00:16:16.940 --> 00:16:18.090 Low intensity, again. 00:16:27.414 --> 00:16:29.020 So a player's going to do something. 00:16:29.020 --> 00:16:31.406 And it's going to come in with the transition. 00:16:31.406 --> 00:16:32.720 [MUSIC INTENSIFIES] 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:34.324 Transition. 00:16:34.324 --> 00:16:37.803 [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:16:41.282 --> 00:16:44.264 Now we're going to go into medium. 00:16:44.264 --> 00:16:45.258 We're in medium. 00:16:56.225 --> 00:16:57.683 The player's going to do something. 00:16:57.683 --> 00:16:59.808 And the music's going to wait to do the transition. 00:17:02.653 --> 00:17:04.144 Transition. 00:17:04.144 --> 00:17:07.126 [MUSIC CHANGES] 00:17:10.108 --> 00:17:14.084 Now it's running the high. 00:17:14.084 --> 00:17:17.563 [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:17:24.590 --> 00:17:27.006 The music's going to wait and then go into the transition. 00:17:38.965 --> 00:17:40.950 And back to low. 00:17:40.950 --> 00:17:41.450 Cool. 00:17:41.450 --> 00:17:44.210 So you saw the music move through-- one, two, three, 00:17:44.210 --> 00:17:46.695 four-- six different pieces there. 00:17:46.695 --> 00:17:49.180 But it sounded like the experience was being scored. 00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:51.870 So again, the idea here is we're trying to-- again, 00:17:51.870 --> 00:17:53.200 with the film, you watch it. 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:53.700 It goes by. 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:54.600 You know what's going to happen. 00:17:54.600 --> 00:17:56.725 We don't know what's going to happen with the game. 00:17:56.725 --> 00:17:59.380 So we write music that can change and adapt 00:17:59.380 --> 00:18:02.530 like that, in a very film-like way 00:18:02.530 --> 00:18:04.090 to score the player experience. 00:18:04.090 --> 00:18:06.407 So why do we do this? 00:18:06.407 --> 00:18:08.740 ANDY FORSBERG: So obviously, it creates a more immersive 00:18:08.740 --> 00:18:10.400 and dynamic player experience. 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:13.010 Any time we are taking you guys out 00:18:13.010 --> 00:18:17.240 of that escapist experience, we're not doing our job. 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:19.630 It extends track longevity, which 00:18:19.630 --> 00:18:23.840 we'll explain later with budgets why that's nice, as well. 00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:26.190 But you get better replay value out of it. 00:18:26.190 --> 00:18:29.280 And it's the greatest value from each individual minute 00:18:29.280 --> 00:18:30.125 of music. 00:18:30.125 --> 00:18:32.682 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, instead of having to hire someone 00:18:32.682 --> 00:18:34.390 to write three different pieces of music, 00:18:34.390 --> 00:18:36.034 if you're on a budget, you can say, 00:18:36.034 --> 00:18:37.200 we'll do one piece of music. 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:38.335 And we'll make it layered. 00:18:38.335 --> 00:18:39.960 And it'll be one better piece of music. 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:40.918 ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly. 00:18:40.918 --> 00:18:44.674 Because if a movie is 90 minutes long 00:18:44.674 --> 00:18:46.090 and they want 60 minutes of music, 00:18:46.090 --> 00:18:47.690 you write 60 minutes of music. 00:18:47.690 --> 00:18:50.840 One small mobile game could have 15 minutes of music. 00:18:50.840 --> 00:18:53.430 Or it could have one minute of music or three minutes. 00:18:53.430 --> 00:18:54.180 So it all depends. 00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:55.055 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:18:55.055 --> 00:18:57.190 And that goes into-- we'll talk about with budgets 00:18:57.190 --> 00:18:58.910 how that affects that. 00:18:58.910 --> 00:19:00.980 But so yeah, jumping onto the next slide, 00:19:00.980 --> 00:19:03.500 how do we do these interactive systems? 00:19:03.500 --> 00:19:05.930 We build them with what we call audio middleware. 00:19:05.930 --> 00:19:09.410 And two of the commercial ones are FMOD, that you see here. 00:19:09.410 --> 00:19:11.810 And if you want to jump ahead to the next one-- Wwise. 00:19:11.810 --> 00:19:13.610 And these are just screenshots. 00:19:13.610 --> 00:19:18.010 And essentially, these allow us to interface with programmers 00:19:18.010 --> 00:19:21.050 and set up these musical triggers and these points 00:19:21.050 --> 00:19:24.500 of musical change based on different parameters, 00:19:24.500 --> 00:19:27.870 like number of enemies around or game state or health, 00:19:27.870 --> 00:19:30.340 and let us set up these musical transitions 00:19:30.340 --> 00:19:31.730 and things like that. 00:19:31.730 --> 00:19:35.650 So yeah, we can jump onto the next section. 00:19:35.650 --> 00:19:36.425 Agreements. 00:19:36.425 --> 00:19:39.337 So you've learned all about interactivity. 00:19:39.337 --> 00:19:40.920 And you're like, yes, this is awesome. 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:42.339 I'm going to hire a game composer 00:19:42.339 --> 00:19:43.630 so that they can do this stuff. 00:19:43.630 --> 00:19:48.560 And then with music, though, it's 00:19:48.560 --> 00:19:50.870 obviously a creative piece of content. 00:19:50.870 --> 00:19:52.750 So the agreements look a little different 00:19:52.750 --> 00:19:54.100 sometimes than other agreements. 00:19:54.100 --> 00:19:56.700 And so we're going to show you three different kinds. 00:19:56.700 --> 00:19:57.533 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah. 00:19:57.533 --> 00:19:59.050 So the purposes of these contracts 00:19:59.050 --> 00:20:02.210 are, obviously, to see who owns it, obviously, 00:20:02.210 --> 00:20:03.650 first and foremost. 00:20:03.650 --> 00:20:06.236 What we're going to be delivering to you. 00:20:06.236 --> 00:20:09.120 What the delivery milestones are in a game just as 00:20:09.120 --> 00:20:11.012 there's development milestones. 00:20:11.012 --> 00:20:12.470 How much you guys are paying, which 00:20:12.470 --> 00:20:14.670 is super important for you and us. 00:20:14.670 --> 00:20:18.140 And what's your rights as a developer? 00:20:18.140 --> 00:20:19.210 Where can you use it? 00:20:19.210 --> 00:20:21.350 Can you go around and license it to use it 00:20:21.350 --> 00:20:24.500 in all the things involved with your project or no? 00:20:24.500 --> 00:20:26.360 And what are our usage rights? 00:20:26.360 --> 00:20:29.420 Can we use it in our portfolio, on our Facebook page? 00:20:29.420 --> 00:20:31.214 Can we do that sort of thing? 00:20:31.214 --> 00:20:33.505 So we're just going to go through a few of the contract 00:20:33.505 --> 00:20:34.550 types here. 00:20:34.550 --> 00:20:34.740 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:37.150 And it's really important to spell out all those things. 00:20:37.150 --> 00:20:38.720 So yeah, let's look at the first one. 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:40.030 Work for Hire. 00:20:40.030 --> 00:20:41.890 This is the most common type of agreement 00:20:41.890 --> 00:20:43.380 that you run into with composers. 00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:45.690 And it's essentially where I'm the composer, 00:20:45.690 --> 00:20:49.530 I've written music, and I am selling you my music or sound. 00:20:49.530 --> 00:20:50.720 You're buying it from me. 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:53.910 And you're taking all the rights for it as a developer. 00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:59.050 You become the owners of the music and sound. 00:20:59.050 --> 00:21:01.520 And so you've got the rights associated with it. 00:21:01.520 --> 00:21:03.740 And because you have the rights, the developer then 00:21:03.740 --> 00:21:05.180 can usually use the audio however 00:21:05.180 --> 00:21:06.250 they want in the project. 00:21:06.250 --> 00:21:08.740 Because you own it. 00:21:08.740 --> 00:21:11.410 You've also got the exclusive right to use the audio, 00:21:11.410 --> 00:21:13.506 meaning you're the only ones that can use it. 00:21:13.506 --> 00:21:15.380 I can't go around and turn around and sell it 00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:16.940 to Bob or Joe over there. 00:21:16.940 --> 00:21:17.880 You've bought it. 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:18.900 It's yours. 00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:21.910 And then lastly-- this is the disadvantage 00:21:21.910 --> 00:21:24.860 for developers-- is that this is a more expensive agreement. 00:21:24.860 --> 00:21:27.860 Because you are buying out all of our rights. 00:21:27.860 --> 00:21:30.720 And I'm going to show in detail in a few slides 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:34.460 some important clauses to be aware of in these contracts. 00:21:34.460 --> 00:21:37.710 But yeah, so let's talk about on the other end of the spectrum. 00:21:37.710 --> 00:21:41.430 We've got work for hire, where you and me-- the composer 00:21:41.430 --> 00:21:42.850 selling the developer my rights. 00:21:42.850 --> 00:21:45.434 And then on the other end of the spectrum, we've got licenses. 00:21:45.434 --> 00:21:46.308 ANDY FORSBERG: Right. 00:21:46.308 --> 00:21:47.870 So we have two sorts of licenses. 00:21:47.870 --> 00:21:50.370 The first we'll talk about is the non-exclusive. 00:21:50.370 --> 00:21:52.500 So this means that we are retaining 00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:54.500 the rights of the music, sound effects, anything 00:21:54.500 --> 00:21:55.480 we do for your project. 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:57.950 We could go around and turn it to another game, et cetera. 00:21:57.950 --> 00:21:59.900 However, don't be afraid of these. 00:21:59.900 --> 00:22:01.900 We're writing the same custom music 00:22:01.900 --> 00:22:04.690 for your game, which is super important to remember. 00:22:04.690 --> 00:22:07.230 You're getting the same exact product. 00:22:07.230 --> 00:22:08.900 It's obviously a lot cheaper. 00:22:08.900 --> 00:22:12.870 And it's a great way to save yourself some money when 00:22:12.870 --> 00:22:15.290 working with people like us. 00:22:15.290 --> 00:22:17.210 And again, you can still have unrestricted 00:22:17.210 --> 00:22:19.730 use of the audio in your project and things involved 00:22:19.730 --> 00:22:20.740 with that usually. 00:22:20.740 --> 00:22:24.650 But again, we could turn around and use this for whatever we 00:22:24.650 --> 00:22:26.940 would like to use it for. 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:28.540 So yeah, those are the main reasons-- 00:22:28.540 --> 00:22:30.680 RICHARD LUDLOW: And we use this negotiating with developers 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:31.267 all the time. 00:22:31.267 --> 00:22:33.350 So if they don't want to buy out all of our rights 00:22:33.350 --> 00:22:35.225 and pay that full price, we'll say, OK, well, 00:22:35.225 --> 00:22:37.634 we'll retain the right to go sell it to Bob and Joe 00:22:37.634 --> 00:22:39.050 and still give you the same music. 00:22:41.019 --> 00:22:42.810 ANDY FORSBERG: And then we have, obviously, 00:22:42.810 --> 00:22:48.480 the exclusive license, which is you're going 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:50.370 to retain all of the rights. 00:22:50.370 --> 00:22:52.850 But it's usually for a certain amount of time. 00:22:52.850 --> 00:22:55.280 And then those rights transfer back to us. 00:22:55.280 --> 00:22:57.430 And sometimes it's industry-specific. 00:22:57.430 --> 00:23:02.609 So we might be able to use that audio in a trailer or a film 00:23:02.609 --> 00:23:03.150 or something. 00:23:03.150 --> 00:23:06.000 However, pertaining to the game or anything in the game world, 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.114 we're not going to turn around and license that 00:23:08.114 --> 00:23:08.780 to someone else. 00:23:08.780 --> 00:23:12.460 Usually this lasts about one to five years. 00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:14.320 We like to call this the happy medium 00:23:14.320 --> 00:23:18.940 between the work for hire and the non-exclusive license. 00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:22.650 And it really is a healthy balance of price and control. 00:23:22.650 --> 00:23:25.440 Because it's right in the middle as far as price is concerned. 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.020 And everyone's happy. 00:23:27.020 --> 00:23:29.170 You guys could use it for what you need. 00:23:29.170 --> 00:23:31.335 But then we also get those rights back. eventually. 00:23:31.335 --> 00:23:32.210 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:23:32.210 --> 00:23:34.540 So work for hire-- I make the music. 00:23:34.540 --> 00:23:35.260 I'm the composer. 00:23:35.260 --> 00:23:36.180 I sell it to you. 00:23:36.180 --> 00:23:37.220 You get all the rights. 00:23:37.220 --> 00:23:38.960 Non-exclusive-- I'm the composer. 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:40.040 I make the music. 00:23:40.040 --> 00:23:41.040 I retain all the rights. 00:23:41.040 --> 00:23:42.456 And I can sell it to other people. 00:23:42.456 --> 00:23:44.420 With exclusive, I'm the composer. 00:23:44.420 --> 00:23:45.277 I make the music. 00:23:45.277 --> 00:23:46.110 I retain the rights. 00:23:46.110 --> 00:23:49.370 But I give you the exclusive right to it. 00:23:49.370 --> 00:23:51.010 So I can't sell it to anyone else. 00:23:51.010 --> 00:23:52.630 And then it usually reverts back to us 00:23:52.630 --> 00:23:55.750 after a brief time, as discussed. 00:23:55.750 --> 00:23:58.211 So most common, though, is the work for hire. 00:23:58.211 --> 00:24:00.710 And you're seeing that contract, and you're like, oh my god. 00:24:00.710 --> 00:24:01.293 This is awful. 00:24:01.293 --> 00:24:02.770 I don't want to see this. 00:24:02.770 --> 00:24:05.680 But anyway, let's jump through that really quick 00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:10.250 and just a few key points that really go to developers 00:24:10.250 --> 00:24:12.200 helping protect themselves. 00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:15.437 And I've got to hit Play over here on my key notes 00:24:15.437 --> 00:24:17.520 so that I can see all the different slide changes. 00:24:17.520 --> 00:24:20.330 One second. 00:24:20.330 --> 00:24:21.090 OK, cool. 00:24:21.090 --> 00:24:22.610 So the first thing is services. 00:24:22.610 --> 00:24:26.460 It's like, what are you paying for music, sound, dialogue? 00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:27.570 What are you buying? 00:24:27.570 --> 00:24:28.653 This will be really quick. 00:24:28.653 --> 00:24:31.630 Jumping onto the next one, so payment for services-- 00:24:31.630 --> 00:24:32.800 what are you getting paid? 00:24:32.800 --> 00:24:36.140 You want to spell out exactly how much you're going to charge 00:24:36.140 --> 00:24:41.116 and how much you're going to pay for the music and sound. 00:24:41.116 --> 00:24:43.490 Next point, and this is the independent contractor point. 00:24:43.490 --> 00:24:45.530 That's important for you as a developer. 00:24:45.530 --> 00:24:49.620 Because this essentially says that the composer or sound 00:24:49.620 --> 00:24:53.570 designer you're hiring is not on salary 00:24:53.570 --> 00:24:55.390 and does not need benefits. 00:24:55.390 --> 00:24:57.510 They have to take care of their own taxes. 00:24:57.510 --> 00:24:59.030 It just protects the developers. 00:24:59.030 --> 00:25:03.100 So they make everything clear there. 00:25:03.100 --> 00:25:05.310 Next, warranties. 00:25:05.310 --> 00:25:07.890 These are things, again, that protect you, as the developer. 00:25:07.890 --> 00:25:10.700 So this says, OK, the music we're writing, its original. 00:25:10.700 --> 00:25:12.870 We're not stealing John Williams' music, as I always 00:25:12.870 --> 00:25:13.130 say. 00:25:13.130 --> 00:25:14.780 ANDY FORSBERG: [HUMMING] score game. 00:25:14.780 --> 00:25:16.740 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yes, right. [CHUCKLES] 00:25:16.740 --> 00:25:20.536 But then if we do steal it-- and we're not going to steal it. 00:25:20.536 --> 00:25:22.410 And there are some other warranties, as well. 00:25:22.410 --> 00:25:24.970 But we'll jump onto the indemnification. 00:25:24.970 --> 00:25:27.940 So then it usually says, if we do steal John Williams' music, 00:25:27.940 --> 00:25:29.050 you guys are protected. 00:25:29.050 --> 00:25:31.280 And there's different levels of indemnification. 00:25:31.280 --> 00:25:33.170 But the indemnification just says 00:25:33.170 --> 00:25:37.180 it falls on us if we screw things up. 00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:39.800 Next, there's usually a little confidential information 00:25:39.800 --> 00:25:44.930 clause, a little NDA clause about not disclosing things 00:25:44.930 --> 00:25:48.760 and then some specific legal language about the ownership 00:25:48.760 --> 00:25:51.981 and assignment of rights specific to work-for-hire, 00:25:51.981 --> 00:25:52.730 legal mumbo-jumbo. 00:25:56.450 --> 00:26:00.000 We'll skip the subcontract. 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:02.580 And then there are some rights that are specific to us, 00:26:02.580 --> 00:26:03.790 as the content creators. 00:26:03.790 --> 00:26:07.160 So if you remember, we talked about composer-specific rights, 00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:09.730 things like the ability for us to post our work 00:26:09.730 --> 00:26:12.360 on our website, something that we like in our contract 00:26:12.360 --> 00:26:16.310 so that we can advertise music to other people [INAUDIBLE] 00:26:16.310 --> 00:26:17.360 them to hire us. 00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:20.140 Similarly, we often spell out how we're going to be credited. 00:26:20.140 --> 00:26:22.720 And the credit is a great way, as well, 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:24.740 to negotiate with your composer. 00:26:24.740 --> 00:26:26.860 If you're on a budget, maybe you say, OK, I'll 00:26:26.860 --> 00:26:29.360 put your name at the opening cinematic 00:26:29.360 --> 00:26:32.980 instead of just in the back to help compensate 00:26:32.980 --> 00:26:35.220 for our lack of budget, get you a little more 00:26:35.220 --> 00:26:36.820 exposure, things like that. 00:26:36.820 --> 00:26:40.280 So you spell out how you want to be credited. 00:26:40.280 --> 00:26:42.857 That's really it for the contract. 00:26:42.857 --> 00:26:44.440 I don't want to go too detailed there. 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:46.846 But some key points to be thinking about 00:26:46.846 --> 00:26:51.450 if you guys ever hire a composer or a sound designer. 00:26:51.450 --> 00:26:53.090 Let's talk about money. 00:26:53.090 --> 00:26:56.360 This is the question most people have. 00:26:56.360 --> 00:26:59.890 And whenever I meet a developer, without fail, 00:26:59.890 --> 00:27:02.280 within like 10 minutes of the conversation, they're like, 00:27:02.280 --> 00:27:03.900 ah, what do you charge? 00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:06.630 ANDY FORSBERG: What's generally what you charge for any game? 00:27:06.630 --> 00:27:07.910 RICHARD LUDLOW: It's funny. 00:27:07.910 --> 00:27:09.942 And I gave this talk at GDC Next. 00:27:09.942 --> 00:27:11.400 And you'll see by the end of it why 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.430 I'm like, that's not a question I can just answer. 00:27:14.430 --> 00:27:16.420 And then I got like three emails from people 00:27:16.420 --> 00:27:18.490 who attended the talk after and who were like, 00:27:18.490 --> 00:27:21.074 can you just give me a range for an indie budget? 00:27:21.074 --> 00:27:23.240 Anyway, but you'll see why that's funny in a minute. 00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:25.542 Because my response is always to them when they ask, 00:27:25.542 --> 00:27:26.500 how much do you charge? 00:27:26.500 --> 00:27:28.820 My response is always, what's your budget? 00:27:28.820 --> 00:27:33.642 And the reason being because are so many factors, 00:27:33.642 --> 00:27:37.430 like what the deadline is, musical style, 00:27:37.430 --> 00:27:39.880 whether or not we're talking about a solo piano piece 00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:41.280 versus epic orchestral piece. 00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:43.238 ANDY FORSBERG: Are we going to get live players 00:27:43.238 --> 00:27:45.967 to play those orchestral pieces or a piano player 00:27:45.967 --> 00:27:47.160 to play that song, maybe. 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:47.820 RICHARD LUDLOW: You can throw out the bullet points 00:27:47.820 --> 00:27:49.020 if you want, just FYI. 00:27:49.020 --> 00:27:52.410 We're just going through them. 00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:54.500 Anyway, and what's the release platform? 00:27:54.500 --> 00:27:55.700 Is this the AAA console? 00:27:55.700 --> 00:27:58.620 Or is it a Facebook game for the American Cancer Society? 00:27:58.620 --> 00:27:59.465 ANDY FORSBERG: Again, are we going 00:27:59.465 --> 00:28:01.750 to use a work-for-hire or what one of the license deals? 00:28:01.750 --> 00:28:02.666 RICHARD LUDLOW: Right. 00:28:02.666 --> 00:28:05.079 Like we just talked about, buying out the rights or us 00:28:05.079 --> 00:28:05.870 keeping the rights? 00:28:05.870 --> 00:28:08.770 Really big effect on the price there. 00:28:08.770 --> 00:28:09.770 How much are you buying? 00:28:09.770 --> 00:28:11.210 We're like Costco. 00:28:11.210 --> 00:28:11.950 [INAUDIBLE] 00:28:11.950 --> 00:28:14.450 ANDY FORSBERG: But if you're going to buy 100 sound effects, 00:28:14.450 --> 00:28:16.533 that's obviously going to be different than if you 00:28:16.533 --> 00:28:18.395 need five sound effects or 50 sound effects. 00:28:18.395 --> 00:28:20.090 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, we give bulk discounts all the time. 00:28:20.090 --> 00:28:20.480 ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly. 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:22.230 And that goes into, obviously, the depth 00:28:22.230 --> 00:28:23.890 of the audio experience, as well, 00:28:23.890 --> 00:28:27.505 which is how crazy we're going to get with interactivity, 00:28:27.505 --> 00:28:29.904 if we're going to be using middleware. 00:28:29.904 --> 00:28:32.070 RICHARD LUDLOW: Like Andy said with the mobile game, 00:28:32.070 --> 00:28:35.220 you could put one minute, three minutes, 10 minutes, 20 00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:37.320 minutes, all in the same game. 00:28:37.320 --> 00:28:39.740 It's going to be a better game if you've got-- maybe 00:28:39.740 --> 00:28:40.490 you don't need 20. 00:28:40.490 --> 00:28:42.739 But if you've got more than one looping track, 00:28:42.739 --> 00:28:44.030 it's going to be a better game. 00:28:44.030 --> 00:28:47.180 But the game still exists with a single piece of music. 00:28:47.180 --> 00:28:49.620 So saying, how much do you charge, 00:28:49.620 --> 00:28:52.080 is a very, very difficult question 00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:53.270 to answer without knowing-- 00:28:53.270 --> 00:28:53.780 ANDY FORSBERG: Any stipulations. 00:28:53.780 --> 00:28:55.404 RICHARD LUDLOW: --more about your game. 00:28:55.404 --> 00:28:56.090 Yeah. 00:28:56.090 --> 00:28:58.370 ANDY FORSBERG: One of our clients 00:28:58.370 --> 00:29:01.830 that we work with, on their page where you go to contact them, 00:29:01.830 --> 00:29:04.210 it says, when do you need your project done by? 00:29:04.210 --> 00:29:06.046 And one of the options is, Yesterday. 00:29:06.046 --> 00:29:06.920 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:09.660 And deadlines are a huge part of that. 00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:11.410 Sometimes we get calls where it's 00:29:11.410 --> 00:29:14.180 like, we need this in two days or in a day. 00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:15.860 And we'll do it. 00:29:15.860 --> 00:29:18.790 But it's going to cost more than if you need it in a year. 00:29:18.790 --> 00:29:23.550 So contacting, guys, early is important. 00:29:23.550 --> 00:29:25.529 Anyway, let's jump on to payment models. 00:29:25.529 --> 00:29:28.070 ANDY FORSBERG: And you can hit all these bullet points again. 00:29:28.070 --> 00:29:29.220 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, I mean, we were just 00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:31.660 basically talking about how composers and sound 00:29:31.660 --> 00:29:34.970 designers charge. 00:29:34.970 --> 00:29:38.280 Typically with music, it's a per-minute music, so not 00:29:38.280 --> 00:29:39.975 per minute that we're working. 00:29:39.975 --> 00:29:41.600 ANDY FORSBERG: And then sound effects-- 00:29:41.600 --> 00:29:44.410 yeah, that we're working-- and then sound effects are usually 00:29:44.410 --> 00:29:46.394 per-asset. 00:29:46.394 --> 00:29:48.060 RICHARD LUDLOW: Or sometimes a flat fee. 00:29:48.060 --> 00:29:50.240 That's also common [INAUDIBLE] quote a project 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:51.970 and say, OK, I'll do your whole project 00:29:51.970 --> 00:29:55.302 regardless of how many sound effects for, you know, $20,000. 00:29:55.302 --> 00:29:56.260 I don't know, whatever. 00:29:56.260 --> 00:29:56.990 ANDY FORSBERG: Sometimes hourly rate. 00:29:56.990 --> 00:29:58.260 We usually don't do this. 00:29:58.260 --> 00:30:00.242 This is a really hard one to engage. 00:30:00.242 --> 00:30:01.700 RICHARD LUDLOW: It's a valid thing. 00:30:01.700 --> 00:30:02.240 People do it. 00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:02.730 We don't. 00:30:02.730 --> 00:30:03.280 ANDY FORSBERG: We don't. 00:30:03.280 --> 00:30:04.490 RICHARD LUDLOW: But yeah. 00:30:04.490 --> 00:30:06.140 [KNOCKING SOUNDS] 00:30:06.140 --> 00:30:08.450 There's some weird thing happening below us. 00:30:08.450 --> 00:30:09.910 ANDY FORSBERG: Sorry. 00:30:09.910 --> 00:30:16.020 And then usually, we really like to get back-end profit sharing. 00:30:16.020 --> 00:30:17.770 RICHARD LUDLOW: If the budget isn't there. 00:30:17.770 --> 00:30:19.930 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, that's a big thing with audio 00:30:19.930 --> 00:30:21.000 to think about. 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.570 At the end of the day, is it really 00:30:23.570 --> 00:30:27.840 going to cost you that much to give 0.5% of back-end when you 00:30:27.840 --> 00:30:29.270 can't give anything up front? 00:30:29.270 --> 00:30:30.967 Because we always have passion projects. 00:30:30.967 --> 00:30:32.550 We make money on some of our projects. 00:30:32.550 --> 00:30:35.420 But we really like to believe in games that are really cool. 00:30:35.420 --> 00:30:38.120 And sometimes the best to do that is just to share the game. 00:30:38.120 --> 00:30:40.360 RICHARD LUDLOW: The indie scene, they often 00:30:40.360 --> 00:30:43.180 can't afford because they don't have that upfront money. 00:30:43.180 --> 00:30:45.290 And so we'll talk about a back-end profit sharing 00:30:45.290 --> 00:30:46.110 percentage. 00:30:46.110 --> 00:30:48.950 And if you talk to people who have been doing this 30 years, 00:30:48.950 --> 00:30:52.130 that didn't exist 10, 20, 30 years ago. 00:30:52.130 --> 00:30:54.620 Audio guys did not get back-end profit sharing usually. 00:30:54.620 --> 00:30:56.520 Because they were just paid upfront. 00:30:56.520 --> 00:30:58.820 But that's kind of gone away. 00:30:58.820 --> 00:31:02.740 I guess that is probably true of all industries. 00:31:02.740 --> 00:31:07.610 But so thinking about that is a very valid thing. 00:31:07.610 --> 00:31:12.200 And it's usually accompanied by some upfront fee. 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:13.780 It's usually a reduced amount. 00:31:13.780 --> 00:31:16.590 But the back-end thing is definitely valid. 00:31:16.590 --> 00:31:19.950 We want new developers to be less afraid of that 00:31:19.950 --> 00:31:21.160 and more open to it. 00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:22.832 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, absolutely. 00:31:22.832 --> 00:31:25.290 RICHARD LUDLOW: And then any combination of the above, too. 00:31:25.290 --> 00:31:25.790 Cool. 00:31:25.790 --> 00:31:28.960 Anyway, so how does this break down? 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:30.880 And you can throw all these up here. 00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:34.086 Just showing you music, sound, and dialogue. 00:31:34.086 --> 00:31:35.460 There's a lot of components here. 00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:37.940 So when we're talking about what we're charging, 00:31:37.940 --> 00:31:42.260 we charge different prices for themes in the music. 00:31:42.260 --> 00:31:46.966 So if I write a musical theme that has its setting, 00:31:46.966 --> 00:31:48.340 and we charge one price for that. 00:31:48.340 --> 00:31:50.070 But then we might put an arrangement 00:31:50.070 --> 00:31:53.980 of that in an underwater level, a desert level, a jungle level. 00:31:53.980 --> 00:31:55.740 The same theme, but different arrangements 00:31:55.740 --> 00:31:56.850 for different levels. 00:31:56.850 --> 00:31:59.250 And we charge less for those arrangements. 00:31:59.250 --> 00:32:00.710 Those little transitional segments 00:32:00.710 --> 00:32:03.940 you've heard in that demo I played, those are transitions. 00:32:03.940 --> 00:32:05.650 We charge less for those. 00:32:05.650 --> 00:32:08.430 And any different price for things like stingers, 00:32:08.430 --> 00:32:10.780 like a coin pick-up or an end game, 00:32:10.780 --> 00:32:15.230 like, [HUMMING] sound like that when you die. 00:32:15.230 --> 00:32:18.960 With sound effects, we break things out into primary sound 00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:21.670 effects, like if you've got a creature having an attack 00:32:21.670 --> 00:32:22.910 sound, "ch." 00:32:22.910 --> 00:32:26.450 And then it's like a die sound, idle sound, 00:32:26.450 --> 00:32:28.950 those are all primary sounds. 00:32:28.950 --> 00:32:33.500 Iterations might be like, attack01, attack02, attack03, 00:32:33.500 --> 00:32:34.890 die01, die02. 00:32:34.890 --> 00:32:37.730 And we charge less for iterations. 00:32:37.730 --> 00:32:41.110 UI and ambiences, different prices there. 00:32:41.110 --> 00:32:43.790 And then dialogue, there's just a whole slew of components, 00:32:43.790 --> 00:32:45.640 like casting. 00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:48.350 Usually you have to hire someone to cast all the actors. 00:32:48.350 --> 00:32:50.440 ANDY FORSBERG: Getting Kevin Spacey 00:32:50.440 --> 00:32:51.940 for the next Call of Duty game. 00:32:51.940 --> 00:32:52.910 Or where-- 00:32:52.910 --> 00:32:53.960 RICHARD LUDLOW: Kevin Spacey for the next-- 00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:54.580 ANDY FORSBERG: --we're doing it ourselves. 00:32:54.580 --> 00:32:57.199 RICHARD LUDLOW: Who doesn't want to use Kevin Spacey? 00:32:57.199 --> 00:32:57.740 You're right. 00:32:57.740 --> 00:32:59.630 And then so they charge a few hundred, 00:32:59.630 --> 00:33:02.167 a few thousand an hour, depending on the actor. 00:33:02.167 --> 00:33:03.750 Usually there's someone directing them 00:33:03.750 --> 00:33:05.290 while they're being recorded. 00:33:05.290 --> 00:33:08.566 Someone's recording them, editing them, processing. 00:33:08.566 --> 00:33:09.940 Just throwing this up here so you 00:33:09.940 --> 00:33:12.599 know all the different components of music-sound 00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:13.390 that are out there. 00:33:13.390 --> 00:33:16.420 So again, asking, what do you charge, 00:33:16.420 --> 00:33:18.940 what does your game need, is a very-- 00:33:18.940 --> 00:33:21.977 we need to know what your game needs before we can say. 00:33:21.977 --> 00:33:23.310 ANDY FORSBERG: Cool, next slide. 00:33:23.310 --> 00:33:24.355 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:33:24.355 --> 00:33:25.980 So we're getting close to the end here. 00:33:25.980 --> 00:33:27.230 Then we can do some questions. 00:33:27.230 --> 00:33:30.000 But just talking about a theoretical project-- 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:37.160 say you've got a low budget, $160,000 Kickstarter project. 00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:39.070 So talking about music-sound, we're 00:33:39.070 --> 00:33:42.510 typically looking at like 5% to 15% 00:33:42.510 --> 00:33:44.790 of budget being allocated to audio. 00:33:44.790 --> 00:33:48.622 5% to 15%, usually hovering around 10, 15, 20, 00:33:48.622 --> 00:33:50.470 25-- very good. 00:33:50.470 --> 00:33:52.150 ANDY FORSBERG: 100! [LAUGHS] 00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:53.810 RICHARD LUDLOW: No, but seriously. 00:33:53.810 --> 00:33:56.340 And so a common problem with this, 00:33:56.340 --> 00:34:01.770 though, is that your game, to be awesome, needs this much music. 00:34:01.770 --> 00:34:05.270 But your budget is only going to allow for this much music. 00:34:05.270 --> 00:34:08.639 So let's say we've got a hypothetical game here 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:11.360 where a project might need 18 minutes of music and 300 00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:12.590 sound effects. 00:34:12.590 --> 00:34:15.540 So say we were going to charge like $750 a minute 00:34:15.540 --> 00:34:18.420 for themes and $500 a minute for arrangements, 00:34:18.420 --> 00:34:21.030 which are kind of indie prices. 00:34:21.030 --> 00:34:25.150 We charge up to-- we have a different scale because 00:34:25.150 --> 00:34:26.940 of all the different factors involved-- 00:34:26.940 --> 00:34:31.000 but up to like $1,000 a minute is pretty typical. 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:34.330 The big guys on AAA's will be charging $2,500 a minute. 00:34:34.330 --> 00:34:36.219 But up to $1,000 a minute of music 00:34:36.219 --> 00:34:41.040 is pretty typical, between $500 and $1,000. 00:34:41.040 --> 00:34:42.659 And then maybe sound effects. 00:34:42.659 --> 00:34:46.690 Maybe you use a combination of all those, total $12,500. 00:34:46.690 --> 00:34:49.230 Let's say this game, to be awesome, again, 00:34:49.230 --> 00:34:52.110 needs $23,500 for the audio. 00:34:52.110 --> 00:34:54.930 And you're like, oh my god, that's a lot of money. 00:34:54.930 --> 00:34:56.429 And let's say the developer has only 00:34:56.429 --> 00:34:58.076 allocated $11,000 to audio. 00:34:58.076 --> 00:34:58.950 ANDY FORSBERG: Right. 00:34:58.950 --> 00:35:01.580 So some things we can do to reduce the costs are-- we 00:35:01.580 --> 00:35:03.990 can reduce the original music themes 00:35:03.990 --> 00:35:05.619 and increase the arrangements. 00:35:05.619 --> 00:35:07.160 So we can just do a lot of iterations 00:35:07.160 --> 00:35:10.017 with things, which is actually a very feasible option, 00:35:10.017 --> 00:35:12.842 because those composers were trained to do that. 00:35:12.842 --> 00:35:15.050 We can reduce the number of sound effects iterations, 00:35:15.050 --> 00:35:16.360 just have more of those primaries. 00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:18.590 RICHARD LUDLOW: Only attack01 instead of 02, 03, 04. 00:35:18.590 --> 00:35:19.600 ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly. 00:35:19.600 --> 00:35:21.142 We can do back-end profit sharing, 00:35:21.142 --> 00:35:22.100 as we mentioned before. 00:35:22.100 --> 00:35:23.765 So maybe at 3% on that. 00:35:23.765 --> 00:35:25.390 And then we can use a license agreement 00:35:25.390 --> 00:35:27.600 instead of saying you're using the work-for-hire. 00:35:27.600 --> 00:35:30.280 RICHARD LUDLOW: So just some common things to think about 00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:31.860 in that negotiating process about, 00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:33.860 how can we work with the audio guy 00:35:33.860 --> 00:35:37.800 to reduce the cost to something we're both comfortable with? 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.500 Yeah, so let's just wrap up really quick. 00:35:40.500 --> 00:35:42.190 What did we talk about? 00:35:42.190 --> 00:35:43.600 Interactivity. 00:35:43.600 --> 00:35:44.660 It's music. 00:35:44.660 --> 00:35:45.690 It's sound. 00:35:45.690 --> 00:35:49.460 It's responding dynamically to player input. 00:35:49.460 --> 00:35:50.600 The player does something. 00:35:50.600 --> 00:35:54.450 The music, the sound, it changes, it reacts. 00:35:54.450 --> 00:35:56.480 It's going to create a deeper player experience. 00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:59.510 It's going to reduce the cost if you do it right. 00:35:59.510 --> 00:36:02.740 And we're doing this with FMOD, Wwise, Fabric, 00:36:02.740 --> 00:36:04.730 different audio middleware. 00:36:04.730 --> 00:36:06.480 ANDY FORSBERG: And then for budgets, we're 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:09.590 trying to look at 5% to 15% of the total budget of your game 00:36:09.590 --> 00:36:11.760 allocated to audio. 00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:13.644 Remember to consider back-end payments. 00:36:13.644 --> 00:36:15.060 We really think that's going to be 00:36:15.060 --> 00:36:17.780 part of the future of how audio works within, especially, 00:36:17.780 --> 00:36:18.770 the indie market. 00:36:18.770 --> 00:36:23.400 And just be willing to negotiate and figure things out. 00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:24.680 Your costs fluctuate. 00:36:24.680 --> 00:36:26.110 Our costs fluctuate. 00:36:26.110 --> 00:36:28.030 So it just needs to be a negotiation. 00:36:28.030 --> 00:36:29.530 We can usually figure something out. 00:36:29.530 --> 00:36:30.770 Any audio person can. 00:36:30.770 --> 00:36:31.280 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:32.980 Oh, and then we jumped over Agreements. 00:36:32.980 --> 00:36:33.500 ANDY FORSBERG: Oh, sorry. 00:36:33.500 --> 00:36:34.416 I went right and down. 00:36:34.416 --> 00:36:37.144 RICHARD LUDLOW: No, it's cool It's all good. 00:36:37.144 --> 00:36:38.560 And then, agreements, again, we're 00:36:38.560 --> 00:36:40.352 talking about work-for-hire. 00:36:40.352 --> 00:36:41.060 I'm the composer. 00:36:41.060 --> 00:36:41.976 I'm writing the music. 00:36:41.976 --> 00:36:44.150 You, as the developer, are buying it. 00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:46.360 Licenses-- I'm the composer. 00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:47.170 I write the music. 00:36:47.170 --> 00:36:48.400 I obtain the rights. 00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:51.653 And then I give you some type of license to use the music. 00:36:51.653 --> 00:36:55.150 But that wraps up, I think, the four points 00:36:55.150 --> 00:36:56.960 we were going to talk about. 00:36:56.960 --> 00:36:58.610 If you guys have specific questions, 00:36:58.610 --> 00:36:59.900 we're happy to answer them. 00:36:59.900 --> 00:37:03.180 Or Phil, if you have any additional points 00:37:03.180 --> 00:37:06.765 you want to touch on. 00:37:06.765 --> 00:37:10.132 [APPLAUSE] 00:37:11.181 --> 00:37:12.056 ANDY FORSBERG: Thanks 00:37:12.056 --> 00:37:13.018 RICHARD LUDLOW: Thanks. 00:37:13.018 --> 00:37:14.476 PROFESSOR 2: I think for questions, 00:37:14.476 --> 00:37:16.410 if anyone has any questions, I'll 00:37:16.410 --> 00:37:18.730 repeat it since I'm a little bit closer to the mic. 00:37:18.730 --> 00:37:20.640 Although, maybe the mic might pick you up 00:37:20.640 --> 00:37:22.230 if you're in the back of the room. 00:37:22.230 --> 00:37:23.540 We'll give it a shot. 00:37:23.540 --> 00:37:24.810 RICHARD LUDLOW: It doesn't need to be a question about what 00:37:24.810 --> 00:37:25.920 we talked about, too. 00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:27.970 Any audio related things. 00:37:27.970 --> 00:37:29.990 ANDY FORSBERG: Favorite color. 00:37:29.990 --> 00:37:31.798 PROFESSOR 2: Yeah, as loud as you can. 00:37:31.798 --> 00:37:32.714 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 00:37:48.390 --> 00:37:50.255 PROFESSOR 2: Did you [INAUDIBLE]? 00:37:50.255 --> 00:37:51.380 RICHARD LUDLOW: I think so. 00:37:51.380 --> 00:37:54.540 So was the gist of it basically being 00:37:54.540 --> 00:37:57.390 folks using music and sound and then getting takedown notices? 00:37:57.390 --> 00:37:58.422 Is that what she said? 00:37:58.422 --> 00:37:59.880 PROFESSOR 2: Yeah, takedown notices 00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:01.380 on some of those by YouTube or Twitch. 00:38:01.380 --> 00:38:02.755 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, absolutely. 00:38:02.755 --> 00:38:04.330 So the whole takedown notice thing 00:38:04.330 --> 00:38:07.620 has really come about because people are just using the music 00:38:07.620 --> 00:38:10.860 or just using the sound without asking for permission for it. 00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:12.890 Now, in an actual gameplay video, 00:38:12.890 --> 00:38:15.510 if you're streaming Twitch, that is really 00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:17.530 a very developer-specific question. 00:38:17.530 --> 00:38:20.510 And that's not something that we, as the composers and sound 00:38:20.510 --> 00:38:23.010 designers, really even have control over. 00:38:23.010 --> 00:38:25.530 If it's for a game and if it's in a game, 00:38:25.530 --> 00:38:28.840 if we're working on a Nintendo game and it goes out to them, 00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:31.340 then that is owned by Nintendo. 00:38:31.340 --> 00:38:33.150 And if it's not owned by Nintendo, 00:38:33.150 --> 00:38:34.540 they've got the license for it. 00:38:34.540 --> 00:38:37.590 So it's all on them with regards to that. 00:38:37.590 --> 00:38:40.660 So some developers are totally cool letting it slide. 00:38:40.660 --> 00:38:42.670 Some developers are not. 00:38:42.670 --> 00:38:46.945 But it's a shifting-- it's all being figured out right now. 00:38:46.945 --> 00:38:49.070 ANDY FORSBERG: And usually that happens, obviously, 00:38:49.070 --> 00:38:52.530 in the bigger game world. 00:38:52.530 --> 00:38:54.030 The biggest game that would probably 00:38:54.030 --> 00:38:55.530 happen with in the indie world would 00:38:55.530 --> 00:38:57.660 be something like Journey, or something like that. 00:38:57.660 --> 00:39:00.450 RICHARD LUDLOW: And most often, at least now, developers 00:39:00.450 --> 00:39:02.660 are pretty cool with it. 00:39:02.660 --> 00:39:05.180 But I know it's all being figured out right now. 00:39:05.180 --> 00:39:06.629 That's a very shifting landscape. 00:39:06.629 --> 00:39:09.170 ANDY FORSBERG: And it has to do with royalties in music and-- 00:39:09.170 --> 00:39:11.832 RICHARD LUDLOW: That's another thing. 00:39:11.832 --> 00:39:14.290 ANDY FORSBERG: Collections have been set up for film and TV 00:39:14.290 --> 00:39:15.945 for eons now. 00:39:15.945 --> 00:39:17.570 And there's a system in place for that. 00:39:17.570 --> 00:39:19.487 But there's really no landscape for games yet. 00:39:19.487 --> 00:39:21.695 RICHARD LUDLOW: It's a little different with YouTube, 00:39:21.695 --> 00:39:23.170 and the Twitch, as well. 00:39:23.170 --> 00:39:26.460 We get paid 0.0001 cents every time someone will 00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:28.060 watch something on YouTube. 00:39:28.060 --> 00:39:30.000 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, it's insulting. 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.040 RICHARD LUDLOW: In five years, hopefully, 00:39:31.040 --> 00:39:32.248 that will all be figured out. 00:39:32.248 --> 00:39:35.070 But sorry I don't have a better answer. 00:39:35.070 --> 00:39:37.227 our fault. It's the developer. 00:39:37.227 --> 00:39:38.810 PROFESSOR 2: Just a follow up question 00:39:38.810 --> 00:39:41.720 on that-- it seems like in order for all these services 00:39:41.720 --> 00:39:44.790 to actually detect that they're using the music, 00:39:44.790 --> 00:39:46.810 they need to cross check it against some sort 00:39:46.810 --> 00:39:48.100 of audio database. 00:39:48.100 --> 00:39:50.970 So is that something that you, as composers, usually 00:39:50.970 --> 00:39:51.720 end up submitting? 00:39:51.720 --> 00:39:53.480 Or is that something that the game companies usually 00:39:53.480 --> 00:39:54.130 end up doing? 00:39:54.130 --> 00:39:56.171 Or does it really depend on the license agreement 00:39:56.171 --> 00:39:59.120 that you have with the company? 00:39:59.120 --> 00:40:01.125 ANDY FORSBERG: It's usually the developer. 00:40:01.125 --> 00:40:02.000 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.750 So there's a couple different ways. 00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:07.210 We have friends who work for PlayStation. 00:40:07.210 --> 00:40:09.160 And they were just talking about how 00:40:09.160 --> 00:40:12.950 they posted things on their PlayStation North America 00:40:12.950 --> 00:40:13.450 account. 00:40:13.450 --> 00:40:17.000 And they got taken down by PlayStation Japan or something. 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:20.680 So their own companies aren't even really 00:40:20.680 --> 00:40:22.590 able to quite mesh this together yet. 00:40:22.590 --> 00:40:27.580 But the databases are sometimes internal to publishers. 00:40:27.580 --> 00:40:31.860 But also sometimes they're scanning surfaces 00:40:31.860 --> 00:40:35.230 that these royalties agencies like BMI and ASCAP 00:40:35.230 --> 00:40:35.934 actually have. 00:40:35.934 --> 00:40:38.350 And they've got these automatic scannings that are set up. 00:40:38.350 --> 00:40:41.660 And that sometimes comes about because we submit our music 00:40:41.660 --> 00:40:45.250 to these royalty agencies like ASCAP and BMI 00:40:45.250 --> 00:40:46.920 in order to be able to get paid. 00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:49.329 But then they use them to find out how many times things 00:40:49.329 --> 00:40:50.120 are getting played. 00:40:50.120 --> 00:40:53.062 They don't use them to figure out what should be taken down. 00:40:53.062 --> 00:40:54.020 ANDY FORSBERG: Exactly. 00:40:54.020 --> 00:40:57.999 Yeah, I think, especially on the indie level, 00:40:57.999 --> 00:41:00.040 the only way we would be able to detect something 00:41:00.040 --> 00:41:02.040 is if we went and watched a YouTube video, 00:41:02.040 --> 00:41:04.010 our music was in it, and we're like, oh, crap! 00:41:04.010 --> 00:41:04.820 That's our music. 00:41:04.820 --> 00:41:08.220 RICHARD LUDLOW: We don't have these engines going. 00:41:08.220 --> 00:41:11.700 The publishers have teams of people doing takedowns 00:41:11.700 --> 00:41:12.739 on their content. 00:41:12.739 --> 00:41:13.780 ANDY FORSBERG: Yay, team. 00:41:13.780 --> 00:41:15.150 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, and I don't know all the details 00:41:15.150 --> 00:41:15.780 behind that. 00:41:21.166 --> 00:41:22.040 ANDY FORSBERG: Sorry? 00:41:22.040 --> 00:41:23.623 RICHARD LUDLOW: The ASCAP stands for-- 00:41:23.623 --> 00:41:28.650 BOTH: American Society of Composers and Publishers? 00:41:28.650 --> 00:41:31.880 RICHARD LUDLOW: I want to say Publishers. 00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:34.730 I think they probably should. 00:41:34.730 --> 00:41:35.530 I don't know, man. 00:41:35.530 --> 00:41:36.905 We just get the checks from them. 00:41:36.905 --> 00:41:40.400 ANDY FORSBERG: BMI is Broadcast Music, Incorporated. 00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:42.150 PROFESSOR 2: So I can take a look at that. 00:41:42.150 --> 00:41:43.270 ANDY FORSBERG: They're called PRO's. 00:41:43.270 --> 00:41:45.650 RICHARD LUDLOW: Composers, Authors, and Publishers. 00:41:45.650 --> 00:41:47.230 PROFESSOR 2: Next one? 00:41:47.230 --> 00:41:48.130 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yes. 00:41:48.130 --> 00:41:48.830 PROFESSOR 2: Other questions? 00:41:48.830 --> 00:41:49.748 Yeah, Liz? 00:41:49.748 --> 00:41:53.880 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] art talk of last class, 00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:57.900 they have done an artist test to see if the particular artists 00:41:57.900 --> 00:41:58.880 are right for the game. 00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:00.782 Is there an equivalent for music? 00:42:00.782 --> 00:42:02.115 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, absolutely. 00:42:02.115 --> 00:42:04.073 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah, we do those all the time. 00:42:04.073 --> 00:42:06.930 And that's a totally legitimate thing if you aren't sure. 00:42:06.930 --> 00:42:12.360 Asking them to do a 30-second demo. 00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:16.921 I'd say a 30-second demo is totally legitimate. 00:42:16.921 --> 00:42:19.420 Yeah, and usually the best way to do that, guys, just so you 00:42:19.420 --> 00:42:22.390 know, take some gameplay, be it from your game, 00:42:22.390 --> 00:42:25.390 a different game, concept art for your game, 00:42:25.390 --> 00:42:29.360 take some visuals as a video, send it to them. 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:31.260 Or just concept art, send it to them. 00:42:31.260 --> 00:42:32.485 And let them work with that. 00:42:32.485 --> 00:42:33.985 ANDY FORSBERG: Because we could even 00:42:33.985 --> 00:42:36.140 do an interactive demo for it at that point. 00:42:36.140 --> 00:42:38.120 The big thing, again, is there's the difference 00:42:38.120 --> 00:42:39.930 between being able to write good music 00:42:39.930 --> 00:42:42.660 and having a core concept for a game from the beginning 00:42:42.660 --> 00:42:46.030 and thinking about interactivity when you're composing and doing 00:42:46.030 --> 00:42:46.880 sound effects. 00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:48.555 Because it's a whole different animal. 00:42:48.555 --> 00:42:49.430 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yeah. 00:42:49.430 --> 00:42:51.820 But the demos are totally legitimate. 00:42:51.820 --> 00:42:52.860 We do them all the time. 00:42:52.860 --> 00:42:56.380 But sending some visuals along is 00:42:56.380 --> 00:42:58.970 very important to making sure you get what you want. 00:42:58.970 --> 00:43:01.652 And then we're able to see what the game is 00:43:01.652 --> 00:43:03.610 going to look like and then make that decision. 00:43:03.610 --> 00:43:05.068 Otherwise, we might write something 00:43:05.068 --> 00:43:08.930 that you might not have the vision for because we 00:43:08.930 --> 00:43:09.860 haven't seen the art. 00:43:09.860 --> 00:43:12.390 And maybe we could easily do what you wanted, 00:43:12.390 --> 00:43:15.320 but we just misinterpreted it and went a different direction. 00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:18.612 But yeah, tests are legitimate, absolutely. 00:43:18.612 --> 00:43:19.570 PROFESSOR 2: Questions? 00:43:19.570 --> 00:43:23.660 AUDIENCE: How much are they paid for the music test? 00:43:23.660 --> 00:43:26.152 PROFESSOR 2: Will you be paid for an audio test? 00:43:26.152 --> 00:43:27.860 RICHARD LUDLOW: What did the art guy say? 00:43:27.860 --> 00:43:28.844 I'm curious. 00:43:28.844 --> 00:43:30.177 AUDIENCE: They said [INAUDIBLE]. 00:43:40.202 --> 00:43:42.410 ANDY FORSBERG: We have not found that to be extremely 00:43:42.410 --> 00:43:43.430 common with what we do. 00:43:43.430 --> 00:43:44.620 We'd like it to be more common. 00:43:44.620 --> 00:43:45.950 RICHARD LUDLOW: It used to be a thing. 00:43:45.950 --> 00:43:47.990 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, it used to be a huge thing. 00:43:47.990 --> 00:43:49.700 RICHARD LUDLOW: For commercials, it was a big thing. 00:43:49.700 --> 00:43:51.180 You'd get paid for doing a demo. 00:43:51.180 --> 00:43:51.860 ANDY FORSBERG: I think it's definitely 00:43:51.860 --> 00:43:53.110 more common in the game world. 00:43:53.110 --> 00:43:54.950 In the film and TV world, it's so saturated 00:43:54.950 --> 00:43:56.570 with composers and sound designers 00:43:56.570 --> 00:43:58.380 right now that they don't need to. 00:43:58.380 --> 00:44:00.360 Because so many people want the work. 00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:04.390 But it is a respectful thing to do, 00:44:04.390 --> 00:44:06.195 I think if it's a longer demo. 00:44:06.195 --> 00:44:07.820 If it's a shorter demo, then it's like, 00:44:07.820 --> 00:44:09.550 we're happy to get the gig. 00:44:09.550 --> 00:44:10.740 RICHARD LUDLOW: We're going to keep the rights to that, 00:44:10.740 --> 00:44:11.240 anyway. 00:44:11.240 --> 00:44:13.840 So you could say a couple hundred bucks maybe. 00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:17.030 But it's not a required thing. 00:44:17.030 --> 00:44:20.160 If we want the gig, we're happy to do a 30-second demo 00:44:20.160 --> 00:44:21.471 to try and get it often. 00:44:21.471 --> 00:44:23.220 It's nice to throw a couple hundred bucks. 00:44:23.220 --> 00:44:25.550 But at that point, it's a couple hundred bucks. 00:44:25.550 --> 00:44:32.700 It's not like-- it's pennies in the grand scheme of things 00:44:32.700 --> 00:44:34.070 if the project is larger. 00:44:34.070 --> 00:44:38.842 So yeah, anyway, hopefully that solves it. 00:44:38.842 --> 00:44:39.550 PROFESSOR 2: Yes. 00:44:39.550 --> 00:44:40.043 RICHARD LUDLOW: Any more? 00:44:40.043 --> 00:44:40.905 AUDIENCE: Do you find that part of your job 00:44:40.905 --> 00:44:43.512 is convincing people that audio is important? 00:44:43.512 --> 00:44:44.470 ANDY FORSBERG: Oh yeah. 00:44:47.550 --> 00:44:50.660 RICHARD LUDLOW: That's a big part of it. 00:44:50.660 --> 00:44:53.426 We use the three things-- emotion, function-- no. 00:44:53.426 --> 00:44:55.800 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah, I think the biggest argument in that 00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:58.960 is probably a mobile scene. 00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:00.543 Like in class, someone was probably 00:45:00.543 --> 00:45:03.043 playing a mobile game during our talk today and-- (LAUGHING) 00:45:03.043 --> 00:45:04.450 just kidding. 00:45:04.450 --> 00:45:07.235 But it's a big thing, is like well, do they just mute that? 00:45:07.235 --> 00:45:09.110 And then it's like, yeah, you could say that. 00:45:09.110 --> 00:45:10.862 But some people do listen to it. 00:45:10.862 --> 00:45:13.070 When they do listen to it, they listen on headphones. 00:45:13.070 --> 00:45:15.550 And we were at a talk at a conference this year 00:45:15.550 --> 00:45:18.240 called GameSoundCon with a composer 00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:20.970 named Guy Whitmore, who did the music for Peggle and Peggle 2. 00:45:20.970 --> 00:45:22.640 And he was talking about, there's 00:45:22.640 --> 00:45:26.470 not a more intimate experience for audio than in headphones 00:45:26.470 --> 00:45:27.970 or in that arena. 00:45:27.970 --> 00:45:33.270 But I think in general, it is undeniably important. 00:45:33.270 --> 00:45:35.950 RICHARD LUDLOW: You can put out a game. 00:45:35.950 --> 00:45:39.010 A mobile game can do OK with bad audio. 00:45:39.010 --> 00:45:40.110 We're not going to lie. 00:45:40.110 --> 00:45:44.390 That's a thing, like Flappy Bird. 00:45:44.390 --> 00:45:46.280 Believe me, I love Flappy Bird. 00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:50.490 I have triple-digits score on Flappy Bird. 00:45:50.490 --> 00:45:54.640 But if you want to set your game apart, 00:45:54.640 --> 00:45:57.802 people look at that polished experience. 00:45:57.802 --> 00:45:59.260 If we're talking about indie games, 00:45:59.260 --> 00:46:00.320 they look at something like Journey 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.970 or mobile games, something like Peggel 2, they look at that, 00:46:02.970 --> 00:46:05.290 and they're like, wow, this entire experience 00:46:05.290 --> 00:46:08.030 is super polished. 00:46:08.030 --> 00:46:09.405 ANDY FORSBERG: It's a great game. 00:46:09.405 --> 00:46:11.200 RICHARD LUDLOW: And it's broken down into the three parts, 00:46:11.200 --> 00:46:11.890 really. 00:46:11.890 --> 00:46:15.800 It's the functional, it's the mechanic of the game, 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:18.740 it's the visual, and it's the audio. 00:46:18.740 --> 00:46:21.660 And those are all a third of the game. 00:46:21.660 --> 00:46:25.220 And if you take out one of those, you can sell the game. 00:46:25.220 --> 00:46:26.989 If you don't have great art, that's fine. 00:46:26.989 --> 00:46:29.280 There's a lot of great games that don't have great art. 00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:30.700 If you don't have great mechanics, 00:46:30.700 --> 00:46:32.740 OK, maybe it's pretty and sounds nice. 00:46:32.740 --> 00:46:33.640 That'll still sell. 00:46:33.640 --> 00:46:35.765 ANDY FORSBERG: If that was a pie and you had people 00:46:35.765 --> 00:46:38.304 over for a party, would you hand them only 2/3 of the pie? 00:46:38.304 --> 00:46:38.970 They'd be like-- 00:46:38.970 --> 00:46:39.886 RICHARD LUDLOW: Crazy. 00:46:39.886 --> 00:46:41.490 ANDY FORSBERG: --this dude is selfish. 00:46:41.490 --> 00:46:43.700 [LAUGHING] 00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:46.890 RICHARD LUDLOW: He says that because I eat like a pie-- 00:46:46.890 --> 00:46:48.556 I have a thing where I eat a pie a week. 00:46:48.556 --> 00:46:50.634 ANDY FORSBERG: That's a whole other-- 00:46:50.634 --> 00:46:52.050 RICHARD LUDLOW: But no, seriously, 00:46:52.050 --> 00:46:54.700 so your game can function without one of these things 00:46:54.700 --> 00:46:55.510 being great. 00:46:55.510 --> 00:46:57.930 But it's not going to be as great of an experience. 00:47:00.550 --> 00:47:01.050 [INAUDIBLE] 00:47:05.034 --> 00:47:05.700 PROFESSOR 2: No? 00:47:05.700 --> 00:47:07.640 Then I want to thank you again very much 00:47:07.640 --> 00:47:10.034 for speaking to our students. 00:47:10.034 --> 00:47:11.700 RICHARD LUDLOW: Thank you for having us. 00:47:11.700 --> 00:47:14.200 [APPLAUSE] 00:47:14.200 --> 00:47:17.990 Yeah, and feel free to put up our email addresses. 00:47:17.990 --> 00:47:20.785 Mine is rludlow his is aforsberg if you want to-- Oh, OK. 00:47:20.785 --> 00:47:22.660 ANDY FORSBERG: --@hexany-- oh, yeah, perfect. 00:47:22.660 --> 00:47:23.360 OK, cool. 00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:26.380 RICHARD LUDLOW: And yeah, feel free to shoot us an email. 00:47:26.380 --> 00:47:31.910 If you have any questions, we're happy to support audio 00:47:31.910 --> 00:47:36.110 with the new generation of developers. 00:47:36.110 --> 00:47:38.430 There's a lot of great people over at Berkeley, too. 00:47:38.430 --> 00:47:40.300 If you're looking for composers and sound designers 00:47:40.300 --> 00:47:41.820 to collaborate with, other students, 00:47:41.820 --> 00:47:43.160 there's a lot of great people over there. 00:47:43.160 --> 00:47:44.620 There's the Video Game Music Club. 00:47:44.620 --> 00:47:46.760 ANDY FORSBERG: Don't be afraid to cross the bridge. 00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:48.090 RICHARD LUDLOW: Yes. 00:47:48.090 --> 00:47:52.970 The Video Game Music Club, if you shoot them an email, 00:47:52.970 --> 00:47:54.700 you'll get like 10 responses from people 00:47:54.700 --> 00:47:56.991 who are like, yes, let me help you work on this game. 00:47:56.991 --> 00:47:57.990 You're not getting paid. 00:47:57.990 --> 00:47:58.865 I'm not getting paid. 00:47:58.865 --> 00:48:00.890 They might be OK with that. 00:48:00.890 --> 00:48:01.760 ANDY FORSBERG: Yeah. 00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:03.490 You guys have the facilities for what you do. 00:48:03.490 --> 00:48:05.454 And Berkeley has the facilities for what they do. 00:48:05.454 --> 00:48:06.953 RICHARD LUDLOW: Anyway, but then you 00:48:06.953 --> 00:48:08.630 can call us when you've got paid gigs. 00:48:08.630 --> 00:48:09.390 [TSKS] 00:48:09.390 --> 00:48:10.240 ANDY FORSBERG: (WHISPERING) Just saying. 00:48:10.240 --> 00:48:11.323 RICHARD LUDLOW: All right. 00:48:11.323 --> 00:48:12.570 Anyway, well, thanks so much. 00:48:12.570 --> 00:48:15.720 I really appreciate you guys caring about audio, really, 00:48:15.720 --> 00:48:16.430 honestly. 00:48:16.430 --> 00:48:18.702 We really appreciate people caring about music 00:48:18.702 --> 00:48:19.660 and sound a little bit. 00:48:19.660 --> 00:48:20.760 So thanks so much. 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:22.160 ANDY FORSBERG: And good luck with the rest of your semester. 00:48:22.160 --> 00:48:22.660 RICHARD LUDLOW: Absolutely. 00:48:22.660 --> 00:48:23.380 Thanks. 00:48:23.380 --> 00:48:24.300 See you guys around. 00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:25.340 ANDY FORSBERG: Cheers, guys. 00:48:25.340 --> 00:48:26.256 RICHARD LUDLOW: Adios. 00:48:26.256 --> 00:48:28.692 [APPLAUSE] 00:48:33.630 --> 00:48:35.050 PROFESSOR 1: All right. 00:48:35.050 --> 00:48:37.260 So yeah, on that note, if you are 00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:43.660 taking CMS617 next semester, the advanced game studio, CMS610, 00:48:43.660 --> 00:48:49.090 the media arts industries law class, both of those 00:48:49.090 --> 00:48:51.320 are making a good polished experience 00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:54.950 for the end of the semester, with the idea 00:48:54.950 --> 00:48:56.760 of either showing it to publishers 00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:58.110 or submitting it to a festival. 00:48:58.110 --> 00:49:01.240 So audio is really, really important in those two classes. 00:49:01.240 --> 00:49:03.720 And going to Berkeley for that kind of support 00:49:03.720 --> 00:49:05.014 is highly recommended. 00:49:05.014 --> 00:49:06.680 Also recommend them this class if you've 00:49:06.680 --> 00:49:08.290 got the time, as well. 00:49:08.290 --> 00:49:09.819 And let us know if you'd like more 00:49:09.819 --> 00:49:11.860 information about connecting with Berkeley folks. 00:49:11.860 --> 00:49:13.985 PROFESSOR 2: Yeah, we actually know the instructors 00:49:13.985 --> 00:49:16.200 and even some alums. 00:49:16.200 --> 00:49:18.936 But the alums know the people who are still in college. 00:49:18.936 --> 00:49:20.852 PROFESSOR 1: Yep, just email Video Game Bosses 00:49:20.852 --> 00:49:22.983 if you'd like that contact info. 00:49:22.983 --> 00:49:25.822 Otherwise, you've got five minutes to take a break, 00:49:25.822 --> 00:49:27.030 meet back up with your teams. 00:49:27.030 --> 00:49:31.189 And Pablo will be in at 2 o'clock to play three games.