WEBVTT 00:00:01.098 --> 00:00:02.640 ROBERT CLARKE: My name is Rob Clarke. 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:05.820 I'm from Michigan State University School of Packaging. 00:00:05.820 --> 00:00:11.370 And I've been doing RFID research since 1999. 00:00:11.370 --> 00:00:15.690 We just are in the process of finalizing purchase of a 10,000 00:00:15.690 --> 00:00:20.250 square foot facility to move a new lab that'll look 00:00:20.250 --> 00:00:22.710 at both active and passive. 00:00:22.710 --> 00:00:27.390 But moving forward with this whole session now-- 00:00:27.390 --> 00:00:31.590 a couple of things that kind of bothered me about this. 00:00:31.590 --> 00:00:34.470 I keep walking in and on the bulletin boards 00:00:34.470 --> 00:00:37.680 right outside the door there is a big advertisement 00:00:37.680 --> 00:00:41.400 for Urinetown, and I want to know who leaked information 00:00:41.400 --> 00:00:42.300 about this session. 00:00:45.300 --> 00:00:47.187 OK. 00:00:47.187 --> 00:00:49.020 From a packaging standpoint, how many people 00:00:49.020 --> 00:00:52.560 here are directly involved with packaging? 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:53.060 OK. 00:00:53.060 --> 00:00:54.260 A few. 00:00:54.260 --> 00:00:57.110 You may or may not know Jim Goff-- the name-- 00:00:57.110 --> 00:00:59.930 who founded the packaging discipline 00:00:59.930 --> 00:01:03.560 at Michigan State University-- the first academic packaging 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:05.209 facility in the world. 00:01:05.209 --> 00:01:06.650 He just passed away last week. 00:01:06.650 --> 00:01:11.160 And it's a very unfortunate situation. 00:01:11.160 --> 00:01:14.240 And for those of you that didn't know, on the news this morning, 00:01:14.240 --> 00:01:16.432 Super Value just purchased Albertsons. 00:01:16.432 --> 00:01:18.140 And we don't know what that's going to do 00:01:18.140 --> 00:01:22.070 to their RFID announcements. 00:01:22.070 --> 00:01:23.990 But I also want to thank the sound guy 00:01:23.990 --> 00:01:26.390 up there because he's been working his tail off 00:01:26.390 --> 00:01:29.240 for this entire conference. 00:01:29.240 --> 00:01:30.620 And the rest you'll wait for. 00:01:33.420 --> 00:01:37.800 Special thanks to Steve Miles and the MIT crew, 00:01:37.800 --> 00:01:39.540 the conference committee for all the work 00:01:39.540 --> 00:01:42.120 and phone calls that we had back and forth, 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:45.370 all the speakers, and of course, all the attendees 00:01:45.370 --> 00:01:49.470 because without the interchange of our ideas and your input 00:01:49.470 --> 00:01:51.480 this wouldn't move very far. 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.030 And we can all say that we're part of the soakers club 00:01:54.030 --> 00:01:58.380 now due to our walk yesterday crossing the puddles on the way 00:01:58.380 --> 00:01:59.180 there. 00:01:59.180 --> 00:02:02.130 We're bound for life. 00:02:02.130 --> 00:02:03.630 Why study packaging? 00:02:03.630 --> 00:02:08.100 What does packaging have to do with "riff-id" or "arr-fid" 00:02:08.100 --> 00:02:09.479 or anything else. 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:13.800 Well, Throckmorton P. Ruddygore III, one of my favorite people 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:17.850 once stated, packaging is a center of the universe. 00:02:17.850 --> 00:02:19.830 You might as well accept it now. 00:02:19.830 --> 00:02:24.420 All these other disciplines and fields just support packaging. 00:02:24.420 --> 00:02:26.100 And once you come to that agreement, 00:02:26.100 --> 00:02:30.810 you'll see why packaging is relevant to RFID. 00:02:30.810 --> 00:02:36.570 Our work is a ground-level, hands-on approach. 00:02:36.570 --> 00:02:39.450 A lot of the information that I hear 00:02:39.450 --> 00:02:42.840 is the 30,000 foot overview, which is wonderful. 00:02:42.840 --> 00:02:43.770 It sets direction. 00:02:43.770 --> 00:02:45.030 It sets precedence. 00:02:45.030 --> 00:02:48.310 And it doesn't mean shit if it doesn't work. 00:02:48.310 --> 00:02:51.720 You have to have the ground-level, hands-on approach 00:02:51.720 --> 00:02:53.100 to make sure it works. 00:02:53.100 --> 00:02:55.980 That's what packaging does. 00:02:55.980 --> 00:02:59.820 Now, why is this so? 00:02:59.820 --> 00:03:01.170 What is packaging? 00:03:01.170 --> 00:03:02.040 Real quickly. 00:03:02.040 --> 00:03:05.370 You're all going to be experts in 30 seconds or so. 00:03:05.370 --> 00:03:07.380 There are different levels of packaging. 00:03:07.380 --> 00:03:09.780 Primary, secondary, tertiary, all the way up 00:03:09.780 --> 00:03:13.030 through unitized loads or cargo container loads, 00:03:13.030 --> 00:03:14.400 however you want to look at it. 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.430 Primary physically holds the product. 00:03:17.430 --> 00:03:20.640 A bottle is a primary container. 00:03:20.640 --> 00:03:23.970 Secondary container-- we're really brilliant-- 00:03:23.970 --> 00:03:25.890 holds primary containers. 00:03:25.890 --> 00:03:29.910 So a six pack of your favorite amber beverages 00:03:29.910 --> 00:03:32.010 would be a secondary container. 00:03:32.010 --> 00:03:34.590 Tertiary-- I bet you're getting this now-- 00:03:34.590 --> 00:03:36.090 holds the secondary. 00:03:36.090 --> 00:03:41.730 So a shipping case would be the tertiary, and on and on and on. 00:03:41.730 --> 00:03:47.220 Not all products have the same levels or requirements. 00:03:47.220 --> 00:03:49.350 You also have different requirements 00:03:49.350 --> 00:03:51.420 for different industries. 00:03:51.420 --> 00:03:53.128 You have the consumer sector, which 00:03:53.128 --> 00:03:54.420 we've heard a great deal about. 00:03:54.420 --> 00:03:57.210 Retail outlets, these types of things. 00:03:57.210 --> 00:04:00.480 Industrial sector really hasn't gotten a lot of play 00:04:00.480 --> 00:04:04.620 here except some of the DHL and larger volumes, 00:04:04.620 --> 00:04:06.300 but it's a huge market. 00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:08.790 When you think of all the trucks you see driving down 00:04:08.790 --> 00:04:13.800 the highways with the big boxes of materials or machinery, 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:16.920 that's a sector that is completely ignored. 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:20.790 Military-- think about packaging something 00:04:20.790 --> 00:04:23.260 that you don't know when it's going to be used, 00:04:23.260 --> 00:04:27.540 where it's going to be used, or what the evaluation is for once 00:04:27.540 --> 00:04:31.590 it is in use somewhere between now and 20 years from now. 00:04:31.590 --> 00:04:33.420 How do you package that? 00:04:33.420 --> 00:04:35.335 Real interesting dichotomy. 00:04:35.335 --> 00:04:37.710 And then, of course, medical pharmaceuticals, which we've 00:04:37.710 --> 00:04:39.270 heard a great deal about. 00:04:39.270 --> 00:04:40.830 How many of you want your packaging 00:04:40.830 --> 00:04:45.690 to fail prior to taking your medicine? 00:04:45.690 --> 00:04:47.370 Huge implications. 00:04:47.370 --> 00:04:55.140 And what goes on for powdered soap for Mr. Procter & Gamble, 00:04:55.140 --> 00:04:55.770 Cascade-- 00:04:55.770 --> 00:04:58.350 you brought that up earlier-- 00:04:58.350 --> 00:05:00.450 is a little different than what goes on 00:05:00.450 --> 00:05:03.990 for a life-saving medicine, and there 00:05:03.990 --> 00:05:05.410 are different requirements. 00:05:05.410 --> 00:05:08.040 So packaging has to address those. 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:12.510 It then has to do all of that with an eye towards cost. 00:05:12.510 --> 00:05:19.380 And for 10 seconds, cost and price are not equal, period. 00:05:19.380 --> 00:05:23.130 You don't talk about the aversion to moving 00:05:23.130 --> 00:05:25.380 into RFID because of the cost. 00:05:25.380 --> 00:05:27.510 It's actually the price that most people-- 00:05:27.510 --> 00:05:30.900 if they look at the cost, you have insurance costs, 00:05:30.900 --> 00:05:35.700 liability costs, opportunity costs, goodwill costs. 00:05:35.700 --> 00:05:39.180 And you have to balance the costs, positive and negative, 00:05:39.180 --> 00:05:41.040 before you can make a business case. 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:43.290 And that's more of the business side coming out. 00:05:43.290 --> 00:05:46.020 Price is what you pay for something. 00:05:46.020 --> 00:05:48.960 Environmental issues. 00:05:48.960 --> 00:05:56.160 Simply put, your product plus your package, at worst, 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:59.010 has to equal the environment that you're 00:05:59.010 --> 00:06:02.042 going to ship it through. 00:06:02.042 --> 00:06:03.750 Now, you know everything you need to know 00:06:03.750 --> 00:06:05.520 about packaging, pretty much. 00:06:05.520 --> 00:06:09.420 If a package doesn't do its job in that environment, 00:06:09.420 --> 00:06:11.970 it breaks down, product spills or breaks. 00:06:11.970 --> 00:06:12.905 No good. 00:06:12.905 --> 00:06:16.200 If it's too good and your product all 00:06:16.200 --> 00:06:20.320 gets there in perfect shape, you're losing money. 00:06:20.320 --> 00:06:22.080 So there's a fine balance and trade 00:06:22.080 --> 00:06:24.720 off there that you have to look at. 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:28.290 Four main functions of packaging, any one of which 00:06:28.290 --> 00:06:30.570 can be considered a package by itself, 00:06:30.570 --> 00:06:33.120 but ideally, most of the packages we're talking about 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:34.530 have all four. 00:06:34.530 --> 00:06:35.700 Containment. 00:06:35.700 --> 00:06:37.140 Physical holding. 00:06:37.140 --> 00:06:39.250 You'll see my little no sign up there. 00:06:39.250 --> 00:06:39.930 Why? 00:06:39.930 --> 00:06:43.140 Because the containment function of packaging 00:06:43.140 --> 00:06:45.450 really doesn't mean anything with respect 00:06:45.450 --> 00:06:48.510 to RFID implementation. 00:06:48.510 --> 00:06:50.490 Convenience and utility. 00:06:50.490 --> 00:06:52.620 Easy opening features. 00:06:52.620 --> 00:06:54.060 Reclosability. 00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:55.710 Secondary uses. 00:06:55.710 --> 00:06:57.930 These types of things in packages. 00:06:57.930 --> 00:07:04.050 Maybe, maybe not have an opportunity with RF. 00:07:04.050 --> 00:07:07.770 If you're looking at material sorting in a recycling center, 00:07:07.770 --> 00:07:08.550 maybe. 00:07:08.550 --> 00:07:10.290 That's a possibility. 00:07:10.290 --> 00:07:13.110 Now, communication and protection. 00:07:13.110 --> 00:07:15.510 A package should communicate to the users 00:07:15.510 --> 00:07:18.510 how to open it, how to close it, safety. 00:07:18.510 --> 00:07:21.330 Don't try ripping the damn plastic clam shells apart 00:07:21.330 --> 00:07:23.550 with your hands because you'll cut your fingers up. 00:07:23.550 --> 00:07:26.258 That's the number 1 hated package in the world. 00:07:26.258 --> 00:07:28.050 It doesn't matter what country you're from. 00:07:28.050 --> 00:07:29.520 People hate it. 00:07:29.520 --> 00:07:34.050 But protection is a really key one for almost every package 00:07:34.050 --> 00:07:34.980 system. 00:07:34.980 --> 00:07:38.710 You have to protect the contents from the environment, 00:07:38.710 --> 00:07:41.790 be it a physical environment, shock, vibration, 00:07:41.790 --> 00:07:44.940 compression, during distribution and handling. 00:07:44.940 --> 00:07:49.950 Be it environmental and temperature, humidity. 00:07:49.950 --> 00:07:51.450 Salt spray. 00:07:51.450 --> 00:07:52.860 We had conference, too. 00:07:52.860 --> 00:07:54.480 These types of things. 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.080 You also in many cases need a package 00:07:58.080 --> 00:08:02.250 to protect the environment from the product. 00:08:02.250 --> 00:08:03.930 Nuclear waste. 00:08:03.930 --> 00:08:05.880 How many of you want those packages 00:08:05.880 --> 00:08:09.630 to fall apart and leak, say, any time within the next 20,000 00:08:09.630 --> 00:08:11.260 years? 00:08:11.260 --> 00:08:13.290 So these are functions of packaging that you 00:08:13.290 --> 00:08:15.000 need to take into account. 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:16.680 The impact of this? 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:17.370 It's cool. 00:08:17.370 --> 00:08:19.620 Everything has to be packaged. 00:08:19.620 --> 00:08:21.400 It's the center of the universe. 00:08:21.400 --> 00:08:26.260 You can go into any field you want through packaging, 00:08:26.260 --> 00:08:28.300 and students like that. 00:08:28.300 --> 00:08:34.210 All companies and industry use it at some level. 00:08:34.210 --> 00:08:38.500 And it should withstand the rigors of distribution, manual 00:08:38.500 --> 00:08:41.440 and mechanical handlings, warehousing and storage, 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:45.340 not create any problems, and give the ultimate user 00:08:45.340 --> 00:08:46.930 a sense of value. 00:08:46.930 --> 00:08:48.700 What is value in this case? 00:08:48.700 --> 00:08:51.950 You ask somebody, what is it that you want? 00:08:51.950 --> 00:08:54.140 And then you give it to them. 00:08:54.140 --> 00:08:57.460 And if you really want customer satisfaction, 00:08:57.460 --> 00:08:59.500 give them something extra. 00:08:59.500 --> 00:09:00.460 What a bargain. 00:09:00.460 --> 00:09:02.290 What a value. 00:09:02.290 --> 00:09:05.260 Package and can do this. 00:09:05.260 --> 00:09:08.530 Now, at the MSU School of Packaging, 00:09:08.530 --> 00:09:12.880 we focus on RFID applications for the supply chain 00:09:12.880 --> 00:09:16.750 because the item level is a great marketing thing, 00:09:16.750 --> 00:09:19.780 but it's a ways off. 00:09:19.780 --> 00:09:22.300 Supply chain has some real applications. 00:09:22.300 --> 00:09:25.090 You're using bulk quantities. 00:09:25.090 --> 00:09:26.770 You have fixed points that you're 00:09:26.770 --> 00:09:28.600 using, although they're nebulous depending 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:30.490 on the company and everything else. 00:09:30.490 --> 00:09:35.050 And you want to ultimately define the perfect purchase 00:09:35.050 --> 00:09:39.460 order so when a store or customer orders a product 00:09:39.460 --> 00:09:44.050 or a truckload of products, they get exactly what they want, 00:09:44.050 --> 00:09:46.510 when they want it, in the right count. 00:09:46.510 --> 00:09:51.760 And that's one of the things RFID can do. 00:09:51.760 --> 00:09:55.450 Little aside-- MSU School of Packaging, 00:09:55.450 --> 00:09:57.760 we have 600 undergraduates. 00:09:57.760 --> 00:10:03.400 We have just about 100 master students and 20 PhDs. 00:10:03.400 --> 00:10:05.080 Who'd have thunk packaging would be 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:08.990 that big all in our own school? 00:10:08.990 --> 00:10:11.590 Now, we haven't spent a lot of time talking 00:10:11.590 --> 00:10:14.810 about active packaging a little bit yesterday, 00:10:14.810 --> 00:10:19.900 but there is a real opportunity for complementary 00:10:19.900 --> 00:10:22.300 active and passive application. 00:10:22.300 --> 00:10:25.870 If you start down here with item levels, going into a case, 00:10:25.870 --> 00:10:29.470 going into a pallet, ultimately going into a container, 00:10:29.470 --> 00:10:31.070 you can track those. 00:10:31.070 --> 00:10:34.360 And if you note, some of those require passive tags, 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:38.230 meaning the tags don't have any internal energy source. 00:10:38.230 --> 00:10:40.660 They collect it from the readers at read points. 00:10:40.660 --> 00:10:43.810 Versus an active tag, which may go on the container. 00:10:43.810 --> 00:10:45.820 And you'll see if you look in the bottom corner, 00:10:45.820 --> 00:10:48.700 I stole this from the Department of Defense 00:10:48.700 --> 00:10:50.500 because this is how they ship things over 00:10:50.500 --> 00:10:56.140 to the Middle East for the Iraqi and Afghanistan 00:10:56.140 --> 00:10:58.990 or wherever the hell they are over there. 00:10:58.990 --> 00:11:02.020 Pakistan having problems. 00:11:02.020 --> 00:11:04.480 And I like it because it shows that you 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:07.690 have different responsibilities at different parts 00:11:07.690 --> 00:11:08.830 of the supply chain. 00:11:08.830 --> 00:11:10.450 And there's a lot more to this, but I 00:11:10.450 --> 00:11:13.960 want you to realize that because here's the key. 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:17.500 There's nothing that says some of those applications 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:20.050 have to be RFID. 00:11:20.050 --> 00:11:21.460 I love RFID. 00:11:21.460 --> 00:11:23.560 I live and breathe RFID. 00:11:23.560 --> 00:11:26.330 But it's just a technology. 00:11:26.330 --> 00:11:30.380 And there are a lot of different frequencies and applications, 00:11:30.380 --> 00:11:34.060 some of which are better suited by other technologies. 00:11:34.060 --> 00:11:37.360 There are different frequencies than 9:15. 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:42.070 I think the opportunities presented by EPC 00:11:42.070 --> 00:11:45.580 for bringing a lot of positive things to the world 00:11:45.580 --> 00:11:52.690 is a strong, well-defined, forward-thinking process. 00:11:52.690 --> 00:11:56.680 But it's not the only RFID process out there. 00:11:56.680 --> 00:11:58.990 They cover 13.56, 9.15. 00:11:58.990 --> 00:12:01.120 Those are key elements. 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.190 But there's a lot of other applications 00:12:03.190 --> 00:12:05.140 that don't use those frequencies, that 00:12:05.140 --> 00:12:07.600 don't use the same type of applications, 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:12.490 and we will have to be careful not to exclude those and focus 00:12:12.490 --> 00:12:15.160 only on certain areas. 00:12:15.160 --> 00:12:17.800 Now, why look to a university? 00:12:17.800 --> 00:12:21.430 Well, I made this one up because it looks cool. 00:12:21.430 --> 00:12:24.550 And of course, packaging's in the center of that universe, 00:12:24.550 --> 00:12:26.860 as we all know it should be by now. 00:12:26.860 --> 00:12:29.590 But we interact with users, we interact 00:12:29.590 --> 00:12:33.770 with institutional players, and we interact with suppliers. 00:12:33.770 --> 00:12:38.210 We have nothing to sell except our work and our research. 00:12:38.210 --> 00:12:41.810 And if we don't do a good job, we don't sell it very well. 00:12:41.810 --> 00:12:44.350 So these are some of the areas that I would encourage 00:12:44.350 --> 00:12:48.010 you to look at, think about, and if it makes sense for you 00:12:48.010 --> 00:12:52.150 to develop some of the work with the university, hey. 00:12:52.150 --> 00:12:54.190 We encourage it. 00:12:54.190 --> 00:12:55.612 Packaging materials. 00:12:55.612 --> 00:12:57.070 This is where I was afraid you were 00:12:57.070 --> 00:13:00.520 going to fall asleep so I put in a moving picture for you. 00:13:00.520 --> 00:13:04.930 What are the materials, major materials of packaging? 00:13:04.930 --> 00:13:09.160 Well, in somewhat of an order here, wood. 00:13:09.160 --> 00:13:11.050 Huge area. 00:13:11.050 --> 00:13:12.580 Very few people talk about it. 00:13:12.580 --> 00:13:13.780 They think wood pallets. 00:13:13.780 --> 00:13:14.870 That's it. 00:13:14.870 --> 00:13:18.850 But there are so many wooden packages out there 00:13:18.850 --> 00:13:21.470 that you lose sight of them because they're 00:13:21.470 --> 00:13:23.410 a tree in the forest. 00:13:23.410 --> 00:13:27.950 Paper, which is slightly different than that. 00:13:27.950 --> 00:13:31.660 And there are a lot of different types of paper. 00:13:31.660 --> 00:13:33.920 There is not one type of paper, so you 00:13:33.920 --> 00:13:35.293 say it reads through paper. 00:13:35.293 --> 00:13:37.460 If you say that, you don't know what the hell you're 00:13:37.460 --> 00:13:40.490 talking about because papers are treated, 00:13:40.490 --> 00:13:45.260 coated, laminated, different processing issues that go on. 00:13:45.260 --> 00:13:48.350 And all of those can affect their characteristics 00:13:48.350 --> 00:13:50.690 and either lend themselves to benefit 00:13:50.690 --> 00:13:55.160 RFID or, on the other side, block it. 00:13:55.160 --> 00:13:57.170 Then we have problems. 00:13:57.170 --> 00:13:58.010 Plastics. 00:13:58.010 --> 00:14:01.250 And these are things that I'll spend a little more time with. 00:14:01.250 --> 00:14:04.220 Name me the plastic. 00:14:04.220 --> 00:14:04.820 You can't. 00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:06.210 There's, like, a billion of them. 00:14:06.210 --> 00:14:07.670 That's the beauty of plastics. 00:14:07.670 --> 00:14:10.825 You can build in the requirements that you want. 00:14:10.825 --> 00:14:12.950 You add a little bit of this, a little bit of that, 00:14:12.950 --> 00:14:16.850 and you have a gas barrier, a light barrier, a moisture 00:14:16.850 --> 00:14:18.440 barrier, all these things. 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:20.360 And you can mix and match so you can 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:23.540 design any plastic you want. 00:14:23.540 --> 00:14:25.100 Metals. 00:14:25.100 --> 00:14:26.330 Huge opportunity. 00:14:26.330 --> 00:14:29.510 A lot of metal packaging still available. 00:14:29.510 --> 00:14:31.907 And glass, of course. 00:14:31.907 --> 00:14:34.490 Now, the interesting thing about glass-- well, I'll skip that. 00:14:34.490 --> 00:14:38.210 Now, from a packaging standpoint, 00:14:38.210 --> 00:14:40.565 there is no cardboard. 00:14:40.565 --> 00:14:42.440 And I've heard several people make reference, 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:46.520 and it's OK because you hadn't had this class before. 00:14:46.520 --> 00:14:49.880 But cardboard is not a technical term. 00:14:49.880 --> 00:14:52.760 And if you'll notice, in some of the presentations, 00:14:52.760 --> 00:14:57.230 cardboard in one presentation referred to rolled paper. 00:14:57.230 --> 00:15:00.050 Cardboard in another referred to corrugated. 00:15:00.050 --> 00:15:03.200 And then another referred to paperboard, 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.880 which is like what's on the back of your writing tablets. 00:15:07.880 --> 00:15:11.510 And so from that standpoint, they're different terms. 00:15:11.510 --> 00:15:16.430 Solid, fibreboard would be your cardboard 00:15:16.430 --> 00:15:18.830 if you'll use that on the back of your writing. 00:15:18.830 --> 00:15:20.330 Corrugated board. 00:15:20.330 --> 00:15:22.700 Your cardboard box. 00:15:22.700 --> 00:15:26.328 And I'm going to put this up not because you're idiots, 00:15:26.328 --> 00:15:27.620 but I just like to draw on the. 00:15:27.620 --> 00:15:31.840 Board OK? 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:34.410 That's a cross section of a corrugated box. 00:15:34.410 --> 00:15:36.160 And I have it there for a reason that I'll 00:15:36.160 --> 00:15:38.200 get to in a little bit. 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:43.420 Now, the impact of these materials on RFID. 00:15:43.420 --> 00:15:46.450 Different frequencies exhibit different behaviors 00:15:46.450 --> 00:15:51.008 around different materials and applications, period. 00:15:51.008 --> 00:15:52.300 That's the nature of the world. 00:15:52.300 --> 00:15:53.930 Can't change it. 00:15:53.930 --> 00:15:56.800 You need to find the one that works. 00:15:56.800 --> 00:16:02.440 Metal has a large effect on most RF systems, 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.100 and particularly true at the UHF. 00:16:06.100 --> 00:16:07.330 It blocks it. 00:16:07.330 --> 00:16:09.850 It re-radiates it. 00:16:09.850 --> 00:16:12.410 It sends it off elsewhere. 00:16:12.410 --> 00:16:15.280 Now, interestingly, if you know that, 00:16:15.280 --> 00:16:17.530 you can use that to your benefit. 00:16:17.530 --> 00:16:20.490 And in our facility, we've been able to double our read 00:16:20.490 --> 00:16:23.710 range by directing things at an angle 00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:26.680 off of large metal structures. 00:16:26.680 --> 00:16:29.840 And it works wonderfully if you can control the environment. 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:32.780 Now, in the supply chain, good luck. 00:16:32.780 --> 00:16:35.800 But in certain situations, you can do that. 00:16:35.800 --> 00:16:36.670 Plastics. 00:16:36.670 --> 00:16:39.850 Now, plastics, because there are so many different ones, 00:16:39.850 --> 00:16:42.160 they vary all over the map. 00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:44.320 Some plastics are RF friendly. 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:46.090 Some hate it. 00:16:46.090 --> 00:16:49.360 Common ones, your PETs, your Polyethylene Terephthalates, 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.870 your Coke bottles, your polyethylene, 00:16:52.870 --> 00:16:57.100 or polypropylene, all of those are pretty RF friendly 00:16:57.100 --> 00:16:58.810 and can be utilized. 00:16:58.810 --> 00:17:02.200 But not all plastics react the same. 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:07.480 Now, interestingly, glass can be claimed to have little 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:09.520 to no effect on RF. 00:17:09.520 --> 00:17:13.150 That can be true, but you keep in mind 00:17:13.150 --> 00:17:15.460 that glass is not glass. 00:17:15.460 --> 00:17:17.020 Whoa. 00:17:17.020 --> 00:17:17.589 All right. 00:17:17.589 --> 00:17:19.960 This is metaphysical already. 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.240 Glass is like plastics. 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:23.740 It's like paper. 00:17:23.740 --> 00:17:26.750 You order the type of glass you want to use. 00:17:26.750 --> 00:17:28.600 There are different classes of glass. 00:17:28.600 --> 00:17:30.700 Those of you in the pharmaceutical industry 00:17:30.700 --> 00:17:31.450 know that. 00:17:31.450 --> 00:17:34.870 You can have class 1, class 2, class 3, class 4. 00:17:34.870 --> 00:17:38.590 And in changing that, when you're making your glass, 00:17:38.590 --> 00:17:40.810 you add a little bit of this, a little bit of that, 00:17:40.810 --> 00:17:42.400 to get different properties. 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.580 Think about in your kitchen, those of you that have Pyrex. 00:17:45.580 --> 00:17:46.450 Cookware. 00:17:46.450 --> 00:17:49.540 If you drop it, it bounces. 00:17:49.540 --> 00:17:52.360 That's not the same as your light bulb. 00:17:52.360 --> 00:17:54.100 Glass is not always glass. 00:17:54.100 --> 00:17:58.287 And the composition of glass can impact the properties. 00:17:58.287 --> 00:18:00.370 Now, I didn't have time to put in a slide of this, 00:18:00.370 --> 00:18:01.990 but here's some testing we did. 00:18:01.990 --> 00:18:05.990 We took panes of glass, and it was class 2. 00:18:05.990 --> 00:18:09.430 If anybody cares, like your window pane. 00:18:09.430 --> 00:18:13.870 Clear, amber, and green. 00:18:13.870 --> 00:18:18.710 We took an RF tag read, got a read range, 00:18:18.710 --> 00:18:22.150 and then we put the tag behind glass. 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:24.010 Our read range dropped. 00:18:24.010 --> 00:18:26.800 We sandwiched the tag between glass. 00:18:26.800 --> 00:18:30.080 Our read range dropped. 00:18:30.080 --> 00:18:31.320 Huh? 00:18:31.320 --> 00:18:32.820 Shouldn't happen that way. 00:18:32.820 --> 00:18:35.070 But it depends on what's added. 00:18:35.070 --> 00:18:36.960 You need to think about that. 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:38.920 Paper, little to no effect. 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:40.800 And for the reasons I stated earlier, 00:18:40.800 --> 00:18:42.930 that's not always the case. 00:18:42.930 --> 00:18:45.150 Paper has some real unique properties 00:18:45.150 --> 00:18:47.280 even if it's just plain, brown paper 00:18:47.280 --> 00:18:49.790 like you get in grocery bags. 00:18:49.790 --> 00:18:51.480 We're going to look at that. 00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:54.570 Composites-- they're all over the map. 00:18:54.570 --> 00:18:56.220 The only real composite I saw here 00:18:56.220 --> 00:19:01.620 was the bubble pack with Mylar, so it was a foilized plastic. 00:19:01.620 --> 00:19:05.220 And I'll tell you right now, that one doesn't read. 00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:09.150 It's a good insulator for RF energy. 00:19:09.150 --> 00:19:12.480 Problematic matching has come up because sometimes, you 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:16.950 have packaging and water-based products. 00:19:16.950 --> 00:19:21.210 Water is particularly problematic with UHF. 00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:23.280 If you move to a different frequency, 00:19:23.280 --> 00:19:29.220 the water issue can decrease so that it becomes more friendly. 00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:32.370 They use energy through the Earth 00:19:32.370 --> 00:19:34.770 to communicate with submarines. 00:19:34.770 --> 00:19:37.920 We got a 500-mile-long antenna buried in the upper peninsula 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:42.088 of Michigan so that they can use frequencies through water 00:19:42.088 --> 00:19:43.380 to communicate with submarines. 00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:45.540 You can use it, but it has to be really 00:19:45.540 --> 00:19:47.250 low in that particular case. 00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:49.350 The lower you go, the better it works. 00:19:49.350 --> 00:19:53.660 But not all liquids are water. 00:19:53.660 --> 00:19:58.410 If you think about it, how many of you put water in your car? 00:19:58.410 --> 00:20:03.090 I hope it goes into your washers rather than your fuel tank 00:20:03.090 --> 00:20:04.380 because there's a difference. 00:20:04.380 --> 00:20:06.270 Gasoline doesn't have water in it. 00:20:06.270 --> 00:20:08.760 Your gas engine doesn't like it. 00:20:08.760 --> 00:20:12.160 Motor oil does not have water in it. 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.460 And so if you take those liquids, 00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:17.600 RF can go through those. 00:20:17.600 --> 00:20:19.270 So water-based problems is. 00:20:19.270 --> 00:20:21.400 Any product put in metal packaging. 00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:24.070 So your product can be perfectly read, 00:20:24.070 --> 00:20:26.740 and if it goes into a package that doesn't work, 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:28.400 you have problems. 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:32.210 Now, the Cascade powdered soap that I mentioned earlier 00:20:32.210 --> 00:20:37.480 is a good example of a dry, granular product. 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:39.790 Let's put it in a standard corrugated box. 00:20:39.790 --> 00:20:40.990 Will it read or not read? 00:20:40.990 --> 00:20:42.070 What do you think? 00:20:42.070 --> 00:20:44.040 Read? 00:20:44.040 --> 00:20:46.060 Not read? 00:20:46.060 --> 00:20:47.700 Doesn't read. 00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:48.930 Why? 00:20:48.930 --> 00:20:50.923 It's not the water. 00:20:50.923 --> 00:20:52.590 One of the things you don't think about. 00:20:52.590 --> 00:20:56.100 Heavy iron content in the soap. 00:20:56.100 --> 00:20:59.590 And hence, it scatters the RF all over the place. 00:20:59.590 --> 00:21:03.810 So you can't generally read through a powdered soap. 00:21:03.810 --> 00:21:05.220 Who'd have thunk? 00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:06.780 Just looking up here, we have meats. 00:21:06.780 --> 00:21:09.030 We've been testing meats. 00:21:09.030 --> 00:21:09.660 Silly thing. 00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:11.400 Water-based I talked about? 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.100 This is a TI. 00:21:14.100 --> 00:21:16.110 That's a 13.56 tag. 00:21:16.110 --> 00:21:18.360 We also tested it with 9.15. 00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:19.688 Single cut of beef. 00:21:19.688 --> 00:21:21.480 And by the way, it was steak, and damn good 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:24.660 when we were done testing. 00:21:24.660 --> 00:21:26.610 We ran them at chilled temperatures 00:21:26.610 --> 00:21:28.860 and we ran them at frozen temperatures 00:21:28.860 --> 00:21:34.830 13.56, six you could read two or three stacked in a column 00:21:34.830 --> 00:21:36.990 and still be able to read through. 00:21:36.990 --> 00:21:39.720 UHF, you could read the top one, and that was it. 00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:41.910 Wouldn't penetrate to the bottom. 00:21:41.910 --> 00:21:45.510 When we froze those same cuts from each with the same tags, 00:21:45.510 --> 00:21:51.990 we could read five and six deep because the water molecules get 00:21:51.990 --> 00:21:54.900 bound up as ice crystals, and they leave gaps for RF 00:21:54.900 --> 00:21:55.920 to go through. 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.440 So you can read frozen a lot of times with water. 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:02.400 And for those of you that care, it's dielectric constant. 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.620 If you look at dielectric constant of water, 00:22:04.620 --> 00:22:07.420 it's 70 to 80 depending on the properties involved. 00:22:07.420 --> 00:22:12.210 If you look at the dielectric constant of ice, 3.5. 00:22:12.210 --> 00:22:13.290 Right through it. 00:22:13.290 --> 00:22:14.250 So pretty good stuff. 00:22:17.305 --> 00:22:18.180 Some of the research. 00:22:18.180 --> 00:22:20.970 I just want to touch on these real briefly. 00:22:20.970 --> 00:22:25.110 Somebody give me a five minute sign when it's five minutes. 00:22:25.110 --> 00:22:26.130 Warehouse environment. 00:22:26.130 --> 00:22:28.440 This was starting way back when we first-- 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:30.160 where in the heck do you use this stuff? 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:32.242 And so back in '99, we started this research. 00:22:32.242 --> 00:22:34.200 Well, let's see if we can use it in a warehouse 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.510 in developing a model for it. 00:22:36.510 --> 00:22:38.520 Transponder effects on bloom time. 00:22:38.520 --> 00:22:40.650 That meat study, the first one we looked at, 00:22:40.650 --> 00:22:45.630 because the inlay was printed on PET, 00:22:45.630 --> 00:22:49.680 if you put that on the surface over the meat, 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:51.960 even though it was on the plastic over the meat, 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:53.610 it created a double barrier. 00:22:53.610 --> 00:22:56.370 And when you peeled the plastic off of the meat, 00:22:56.370 --> 00:22:59.490 you had a big purple spot there because meat 00:22:59.490 --> 00:23:02.730 turns red during oxygenation. 00:23:02.730 --> 00:23:04.530 And so when you peel the tag off, 00:23:04.530 --> 00:23:06.570 because you have an oxygen barrier on top, 00:23:06.570 --> 00:23:08.460 you left a big purple splotch. 00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:11.280 And people were returning meats to the store saying, 00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:12.960 this crap is spoiled. 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:15.390 And yet, if they waited 20 minutes, 00:23:15.390 --> 00:23:20.890 it would disappear because the meat becomes oxygenated. 00:23:20.890 --> 00:23:22.815 Frozen and refrigerated temperatures. 00:23:22.815 --> 00:23:23.690 I just gave you that. 00:23:23.690 --> 00:23:24.700 That's John [INAUDIBLE]. 00:23:24.700 --> 00:23:28.600 He's now at Kimberly-Clark, an EPC member 00:23:28.600 --> 00:23:32.530 and a task group on something. 00:23:32.530 --> 00:23:37.240 Jeff Taslar, now with Simon, wherever Simon went. 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:40.510 Effects of tag orientation and package content on readability. 00:23:40.510 --> 00:23:44.140 I have a slide on this that I'll share with you shortly. 00:23:44.140 --> 00:23:46.690 Failure modes of class 0 in the lab. 00:23:46.690 --> 00:23:53.830 When you look at ISTA, the Institute of-- 00:23:53.830 --> 00:23:56.590 International Safe Transit Association. 00:23:56.590 --> 00:23:57.640 Excuse me. 00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:01.860 Mental burp. 00:24:01.860 --> 00:24:07.290 They run a series of dynamic tests that UPS, FedEx, DHL, 00:24:07.290 --> 00:24:10.380 may use for liability issues if something 00:24:10.380 --> 00:24:11.610 goes wrong with your package. 00:24:11.610 --> 00:24:14.880 They beat the hell out of it, and the product has to survive. 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.710 That's their test in a nutshell. 00:24:17.710 --> 00:24:21.060 Now, American Society of Testing Materials, ASTM, 00:24:21.060 --> 00:24:22.920 also has a series of tests. 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:24.430 Shock, vibration, compression. 00:24:24.430 --> 00:24:27.210 And you can build your own distribution to fine tune 00:24:27.210 --> 00:24:28.650 so you don't over package. 00:24:28.650 --> 00:24:32.880 We did both test side by side with the same tags. 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.100 And one of the interesting things we found 00:24:35.100 --> 00:24:37.560 was that it was really hard to kill them 00:24:37.560 --> 00:24:43.710 in transit, unless there is a direct impact to the chip. 00:24:43.710 --> 00:24:47.100 The chips were not affected by vibration, which surprised me. 00:24:47.100 --> 00:24:49.110 They were not affected by shock. 00:24:49.110 --> 00:24:51.210 And also, the shock was directly over the chip. 00:24:51.210 --> 00:24:54.570 And it's a brittle piece of silicon, glass, so it breaks. 00:24:54.570 --> 00:24:56.385 And here's why I did this earlier. 00:24:56.385 --> 00:24:59.910 A little trivia for you. 00:24:59.910 --> 00:25:04.590 It makes a difference for survivability 00:25:04.590 --> 00:25:14.660 whether the chip on a tag is over the peak, over the slope, 00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:15.860 or over the valley. 00:25:21.260 --> 00:25:24.935 Try and plan that into your automated system. 00:25:28.190 --> 00:25:29.596 Yes. 00:25:29.596 --> 00:25:32.554 [LAUGHING] 00:25:33.540 --> 00:25:36.630 I'll tell you later. 00:25:36.630 --> 00:25:40.320 And we just finished one antenna configurations 00:25:40.320 --> 00:25:42.540 looking at product and tag types. 00:25:42.540 --> 00:25:45.600 And we evaluated with the same readers, 00:25:45.600 --> 00:25:47.040 and we looked at multiple readers. 00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:49.320 We looked at multiple classes of tags. 00:25:49.320 --> 00:25:53.100 Whether one antenna, two antennae, three antennae, 00:25:53.100 --> 00:25:56.370 or four antennae gave better results. 00:25:56.370 --> 00:25:59.190 And we looked at both linear and circular 00:25:59.190 --> 00:26:01.440 for different product mixes. 00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:03.408 So real interesting. 00:26:03.408 --> 00:26:05.700 We hope to have that one published shortly because it's 00:26:05.700 --> 00:26:07.860 a fascinating study. 00:26:07.860 --> 00:26:09.600 One that's going on right now. 00:26:09.600 --> 00:26:14.220 And Richard-- he disappeared. 00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:16.020 This is what I wanted to talk to him about. 00:26:16.020 --> 00:26:18.840 Electromagnetic property measurement and RF signal 00:26:18.840 --> 00:26:22.470 absorption, evaluation for product stimulant. 00:26:22.470 --> 00:26:24.850 I love these titles because they don't mean anything. 00:26:24.850 --> 00:26:34.590 But we are evaluating how much the materials downgrade moving 00:26:34.590 --> 00:26:37.200 through various materials because they all 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.417 have a different-- if you look at a freeze equation, 00:26:39.417 --> 00:26:41.500 for those of you that know what I'm talking about, 00:26:41.500 --> 00:26:43.030 you have a signal strength. 00:26:43.030 --> 00:26:46.110 And when it reaches a barrier, if it's a packaging material, 00:26:46.110 --> 00:26:49.440 you'll get a lessening as it crosses that barrier. 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:51.510 And you can actually measure these. 00:26:51.510 --> 00:26:53.580 And we developed some new equipment to do that. 00:26:53.580 --> 00:26:56.530 And that's coming up pretty interesting. 00:26:56.530 --> 00:26:59.160 And then we did one on Department 00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:01.110 of Defense's RFID mandates. 00:27:01.110 --> 00:27:02.190 Blah, blah, blah. 00:27:02.190 --> 00:27:05.440 This is the chart that's kind of interesting. 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:09.220 On the one side here with the product, 00:27:09.220 --> 00:27:12.510 you'll see that I have empty foam, empty bottles, rice, 00:27:12.510 --> 00:27:13.620 and water bottles. 00:27:13.620 --> 00:27:19.170 Those are 12 by 12 by 12-inch cases, cubic foot, 00:27:19.170 --> 00:27:22.680 with nothing in them, foam in them 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:26.490 only because we are looking at some of the shipping uses. 00:27:26.490 --> 00:27:31.560 Empty PET bottles, rice in PET bottles, 00:27:31.560 --> 00:27:34.890 and filled water bottles, the same PET. 00:27:34.890 --> 00:27:38.190 And if you start going across, the tag orientation at the top 00:27:38.190 --> 00:27:41.070 says outward-facing tags, where we had as many tags 00:27:41.070 --> 00:27:42.750 facing outward as we could. 00:27:42.750 --> 00:27:44.340 Inward-facing tags. 00:27:44.340 --> 00:27:46.350 You'll see problems there. 00:27:46.350 --> 00:27:48.810 Forward-facing tags on the pallet. 00:27:48.810 --> 00:27:52.290 Upward-facing tags on the pallet, and bottom-based tags 00:27:52.290 --> 00:27:53.730 on the pallet. 00:27:53.730 --> 00:27:56.730 One of the DHL movies which I thought 00:27:56.730 --> 00:28:00.030 was interesting, when they left the tag on the product 00:28:00.030 --> 00:28:02.460 in the loading dock and the guy had to stop and run 00:28:02.460 --> 00:28:05.700 back and get it, the tag was sitting on the side 00:28:05.700 --> 00:28:07.410 so the reader could pick it up. 00:28:07.410 --> 00:28:09.870 If you took that same package and turn that tag down 00:28:09.870 --> 00:28:13.290 on the floor, chances are the reader wouldn't get it. 00:28:13.290 --> 00:28:14.880 Why? 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:16.703 There's metal in the floor. 00:28:16.703 --> 00:28:18.120 Because when you build facilities, 00:28:18.120 --> 00:28:19.350 you put rebar down there. 00:28:19.350 --> 00:28:21.750 It scatters waves all over hell. 00:28:21.750 --> 00:28:25.770 So anyway, this just shows that the wait are good reads. 00:28:25.770 --> 00:28:29.970 This is 1,200 reads for each test. 00:28:29.970 --> 00:28:32.790 Each box is 1,200 reads. 00:28:32.790 --> 00:28:33.870 Percentages of reads. 00:28:33.870 --> 00:28:35.820 And you can see that the white to the red, 00:28:35.820 --> 00:28:38.190 you had orientation issues. 00:28:38.190 --> 00:28:41.070 Not a lot, but statistically significant. 00:28:41.070 --> 00:28:45.180 And in the product categories, as you moved across, 00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:47.460 you had certain orientations of the tags 00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:49.830 on cases that were problematic. 00:28:49.830 --> 00:28:51.810 And when you looked at both of those areas, 00:28:51.810 --> 00:28:55.960 the orange squares up there did come out orange. 00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:57.640 Real problems. 00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:00.430 Packaging and product issues that affect 00:29:00.430 --> 00:29:03.640 RFID readability, transmission, any number 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:05.530 of words you want to put in there. 00:29:05.530 --> 00:29:07.858 Now, again, this is Richards, and I won't-- 00:29:07.858 --> 00:29:09.400 this is some of the stuff we're doing 00:29:09.400 --> 00:29:11.110 on the electromagnetic properties 00:29:11.110 --> 00:29:13.180 and being able to measure energy that 00:29:13.180 --> 00:29:17.140 gets through packaging to a tag and being 00:29:17.140 --> 00:29:18.940 able to measure how much energy it takes 00:29:18.940 --> 00:29:20.980 to breach the threshold for a passive tag 00:29:20.980 --> 00:29:22.510 to send a signal back. 00:29:22.510 --> 00:29:25.510 And it's neat. 00:29:25.510 --> 00:29:28.220 We can talk about that later. 00:29:28.220 --> 00:29:31.690 Now, corrugated board. 00:29:31.690 --> 00:29:37.630 When you add humidity to paper, so hydroscopic paper, 00:29:37.630 --> 00:29:39.790 it absorbs moisture to some level. 00:29:39.790 --> 00:29:41.800 It changes the moisture content. 00:29:41.800 --> 00:29:44.452 And if you see here, we have storage conditions. 00:29:44.452 --> 00:29:45.910 Three different storage conditions, 00:29:45.910 --> 00:29:49.400 three different moisture content associated with that. 00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:50.740 And guess what happens? 00:29:50.740 --> 00:29:53.710 As you go up in moisture content, . 00:29:53.710 --> 00:29:58.010 You start having an effect on the paper. 00:29:58.010 --> 00:30:02.470 Now, it doesn't look like much, but what it boils down 00:30:02.470 --> 00:30:10.570 to is corrugated board or any other paper can affect RFID. 00:30:10.570 --> 00:30:11.845 It does not say it will. 00:30:11.845 --> 00:30:13.450 It does not say it has to. 00:30:13.450 --> 00:30:18.110 It can when you have high humidity. 00:30:18.110 --> 00:30:21.790 If you have low to medium humidity but the paper 00:30:21.790 --> 00:30:24.550 has already been exposed to high humidity. 00:30:24.550 --> 00:30:26.050 Hysteresis is this thing-- 00:30:26.050 --> 00:30:28.330 Mark and I had a conference in Tokyo 00:30:28.330 --> 00:30:30.640 where we discussed this very topic. 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:36.190 When you change a paper's chemistry by adding moisture 00:30:36.190 --> 00:30:38.350 and then dry it out, it never goes back 00:30:38.350 --> 00:30:40.000 to the same static condition. 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:41.590 There's always a residual there. 00:30:41.590 --> 00:30:43.990 So it's easier to pick up moisture the second time 00:30:43.990 --> 00:30:45.500 around. 00:30:45.500 --> 00:30:48.310 So with leakage or condensation, that's an issue. 00:30:48.310 --> 00:30:49.900 If you guys are trying to ship down 00:30:49.900 --> 00:30:54.520 to help Katrina in the southern coast 00:30:54.520 --> 00:30:58.750 where it literally rains inside of warehouses in the summer, 00:30:58.750 --> 00:31:01.010 this could be an issue. 00:31:01.010 --> 00:31:03.190 However-- and here's an interesting point. 00:31:03.190 --> 00:31:05.170 I hear this a lot in my presentations. 00:31:05.170 --> 00:31:06.820 That means we should go to RPCs. 00:31:06.820 --> 00:31:08.290 Returnable Plastic Containers. 00:31:08.290 --> 00:31:10.720 Or actually, there's about five acronyms for RPCs 00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:13.360 depending on the industry you're talking to. 00:31:13.360 --> 00:31:16.300 And here's one of the things that I find with that. 00:31:16.300 --> 00:31:18.010 If you do-- and you can. 00:31:18.010 --> 00:31:20.050 They'll go, you can embed the tank. 00:31:20.050 --> 00:31:21.370 Absolutely right. 00:31:21.370 --> 00:31:21.990 No question. 00:31:21.990 --> 00:31:23.740 You can embed the tag, and it's protected. 00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:24.820 Those are good things. 00:31:24.820 --> 00:31:28.060 You can embed the tag in corrugated, too. 00:31:28.060 --> 00:31:28.955 I don't know. 00:31:28.955 --> 00:31:29.830 I have to look ahead. 00:31:29.830 --> 00:31:30.970 Don't look. 00:31:30.970 --> 00:31:33.820 OK, good. 00:31:33.820 --> 00:31:36.130 If you embed the tag in corrugated, 00:31:36.130 --> 00:31:39.050 there's a problem with that inherently from an operations 00:31:39.050 --> 00:31:42.070 standpoint because you embed it, and those of you that 00:31:42.070 --> 00:31:43.570 have been in a corrugated plant, you 00:31:43.570 --> 00:31:45.430 see this stuff whipping off. 00:31:45.430 --> 00:31:47.470 And you place tags every so often. 00:31:47.470 --> 00:31:51.830 You then have to die cut to get that box plank. 00:31:51.830 --> 00:31:55.820 And if you're changing the dye, you 00:31:55.820 --> 00:31:58.350 don't know what's going to happen to that tag. 00:31:58.350 --> 00:32:00.110 So that's really problematic. 00:32:00.110 --> 00:32:04.130 That means you end up having to inventory 8 foot 00:32:04.130 --> 00:32:10.040 sheets of board rather than dye cute blanks or dye cut boxes. 00:32:10.040 --> 00:32:13.400 That's a huge amount of space increase. 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:15.630 Now, the other thing that-- 00:32:15.630 --> 00:32:16.130 OK. 00:32:16.130 --> 00:32:18.710 With RPCs, I'll cover that in a second. 00:32:18.710 --> 00:32:19.918 Don't let me forget. 00:32:19.918 --> 00:32:21.710 These are just some of our test conditions. 00:32:21.710 --> 00:32:24.290 We have loading docks at the school. 00:32:24.290 --> 00:32:25.790 And in the bottom corner over here, 00:32:25.790 --> 00:32:27.590 you'll see one of my labs. 00:32:27.590 --> 00:32:29.060 And I run that-- 00:32:29.060 --> 00:32:31.550 I just put the corrugated up to make it look clean 00:32:31.550 --> 00:32:33.620 because it's a dirty lab, if you will, 00:32:33.620 --> 00:32:36.300 literally and figuratively. 00:32:36.300 --> 00:32:38.240 But we'll turn on all the equipment 00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:41.810 and see what electromagnetic interference does with respect 00:32:41.810 --> 00:32:45.050 to different tag and reader combinations. 00:32:45.050 --> 00:32:46.730 We did shock testing. 00:32:46.730 --> 00:32:48.920 So we're doing drops on here. 00:32:48.920 --> 00:32:51.693 Here's a vibration test unit load, as well as 00:32:51.693 --> 00:32:54.110 column stack where we're trying to get the columns rubbing 00:32:54.110 --> 00:32:56.420 against each other to see if we could braid through 00:32:56.420 --> 00:32:58.160 to destroy the chip. 00:32:58.160 --> 00:32:59.600 Compression tests. 00:32:59.600 --> 00:33:01.460 You can do these all day long. 00:33:01.460 --> 00:33:04.970 Nothing ever happens, but they're cool to look at. 00:33:04.970 --> 00:33:06.980 Now, here's some issues that we also 00:33:06.980 --> 00:33:10.770 found in looking at a lot of product package combinations. 00:33:10.770 --> 00:33:13.160 This is a seven-down footprint. 00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:15.290 Four and three cases. 00:33:15.290 --> 00:33:21.380 And the white means you got 100% reads in 25 trials 00:33:21.380 --> 00:33:22.850 going through a portal. 00:33:22.850 --> 00:33:26.540 And you have the red with various percentages up there. 00:33:26.540 --> 00:33:29.720 Those tags didn't read, but they're all perimeter tags, 00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:34.510 and they didn't read because metal forklift blocked 00:33:34.510 --> 00:33:35.910 the RF from getting to them. 00:33:35.910 --> 00:33:36.910 I don't have it in here. 00:33:36.910 --> 00:33:38.368 We did a lot of studies on how much 00:33:38.368 --> 00:33:41.308 room do you need to measure in that gap and reflect off, 00:33:41.308 --> 00:33:42.100 but it's different. 00:33:42.100 --> 00:33:45.160 Now, on the bottom is the exact same product, 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:47.530 the exact same cases and tags, but I 00:33:47.530 --> 00:33:50.890 changed the stacking pattern. 00:33:50.890 --> 00:33:56.140 I agree it is a stacking pattern that rhymes with shit. 00:33:56.140 --> 00:33:57.430 It's a terrible pattern. 00:33:57.430 --> 00:33:59.080 You'd never use this. 00:33:59.080 --> 00:34:01.960 However, my point was to demonstrate 00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:04.180 that if you change stacking patterns, 00:34:04.180 --> 00:34:07.060 it can impact readability. 00:34:07.060 --> 00:34:09.610 That's all I wanted to prove. 00:34:09.610 --> 00:34:13.780 Now, here's one where the green is the tag 00:34:13.780 --> 00:34:15.620 location on these cases. 00:34:15.620 --> 00:34:19.719 And we have the same orientation, the same patterns. 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:23.139 And I just turned the tags inward rather than leaving them 00:34:23.139 --> 00:34:24.280 at the perimeter. 00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:28.510 And those red reads, 25 trials, not a single time 00:34:28.510 --> 00:34:29.230 that case read. 00:34:29.230 --> 00:34:33.670 These are individual tiers stacked on top of each other. 00:34:33.670 --> 00:34:36.969 Same with the bottom ones, even though you have the channels 00:34:36.969 --> 00:34:40.570 into the tags. 00:34:40.570 --> 00:34:42.639 Now, here's just kind of a reversed. 00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:45.010 All perimeter tags on the top one. 00:34:45.010 --> 00:34:47.380 Good readability, like no failures. 00:34:47.380 --> 00:34:48.940 That's real handy. 00:34:48.940 --> 00:34:52.750 Inward-facing tags-- death, except on the top where there 00:34:52.750 --> 00:34:54.280 was no case surrounding it. 00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:57.820 Now, what this means, and we've done a lot 00:34:57.820 --> 00:35:00.220 of talking on processes here. 00:35:00.220 --> 00:35:02.500 One of the processes that may have 00:35:02.500 --> 00:35:07.180 to occur before RFID enables all the benefits we're talking 00:35:07.180 --> 00:35:09.490 about in the supply chain is to look 00:35:09.490 --> 00:35:14.320 at changing the pallet patterns or case counts 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:17.550 to maximize perimeter tagging. 00:35:17.550 --> 00:35:20.430 In the video that DHL showed, did anybody 00:35:20.430 --> 00:35:23.070 noticed that that pallet was a half pallet? 00:35:23.070 --> 00:35:26.670 It wasn't a typical GMA pallet like we use here 00:35:26.670 --> 00:35:27.600 in the United States. 00:35:27.600 --> 00:35:29.370 Grocery Manufacturers Association. 00:35:29.370 --> 00:35:31.320 A 40 by 48-inch pallet. 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:32.310 It was a half pellet. 00:35:32.310 --> 00:35:33.810 And if you go through Europe, you'll 00:35:33.810 --> 00:35:35.670 also see quarter pallets. 00:35:35.670 --> 00:35:39.150 And one of the benefits of that system is you always-- 00:35:39.150 --> 00:35:40.140 almost always. 00:35:40.140 --> 00:35:43.740 Pretty much always get that perimeter tagging opportunity, 00:35:43.740 --> 00:35:47.480 and therefore, better readability. 00:35:47.480 --> 00:35:49.820 Now, product impact. 00:35:49.820 --> 00:35:53.240 Water, we tested some, and we found 00:35:53.240 --> 00:35:55.760 a case that would be readable, non-readable. 00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:57.080 Readable, non-readable. 00:35:57.080 --> 00:35:58.580 Nothing changed. 00:35:58.580 --> 00:35:59.690 What the hell's going on? 00:35:59.690 --> 00:36:01.460 I'm going crazy here, all right? 00:36:01.460 --> 00:36:04.490 What we found was we had heads of lettuce. 00:36:04.490 --> 00:36:08.120 And a head of lettuce would rotate and put 00:36:08.120 --> 00:36:13.220 a flat portion of the head on the back side of the case 00:36:13.220 --> 00:36:14.450 where the tag was. 00:36:14.450 --> 00:36:16.970 And if that hunk of water in a lettuce 00:36:16.970 --> 00:36:19.700 was up against the corrugated behind the tag, 00:36:19.700 --> 00:36:21.110 you can't read the tag. 00:36:21.110 --> 00:36:23.720 And that was demonstrated last night 00:36:23.720 --> 00:36:27.380 with the different thicknesses on the water with Dan. 00:36:27.380 --> 00:36:31.010 When you rotated the tray full of water, 00:36:31.010 --> 00:36:32.720 you needed additional thicknesses 00:36:32.720 --> 00:36:35.480 because you need to separate the tag from the water 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:39.680 to allow the signal to get in and energize the antennae. 00:36:39.680 --> 00:36:41.522 And here's a perfect example. 00:36:41.522 --> 00:36:42.480 We found it in lettuce. 00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:43.550 We found it in peaches. 00:36:43.550 --> 00:36:46.700 We found it in a couple of different products. 00:36:46.700 --> 00:36:52.890 We started looking at reading on shrinkwrap situation. 00:36:52.890 --> 00:36:54.410 Stretch wrap, excuse me. 00:36:54.410 --> 00:36:57.170 And this is a portal that has four antennae. 00:36:57.170 --> 00:37:01.430 This is part of the antennae configuration and readability. 00:37:01.430 --> 00:37:03.890 And reading, wow, it's because it's 00:37:03.890 --> 00:37:09.440 on there for roughly 30 seconds while the stretch 00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:11.630 wrap is being put on. 00:37:11.630 --> 00:37:17.630 And we found some fun results, but that'll be out shortly, 00:37:17.630 --> 00:37:19.138 and I'll teach all of that. 00:37:19.138 --> 00:37:20.930 One of the things we're currently doing now 00:37:20.930 --> 00:37:22.760 is looking at water on corrugated. 00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:27.560 Corrugated has huge markets and opportunities within produce. 00:37:27.560 --> 00:37:29.070 No question about it. 00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:32.330 And here, we've started a series of tests on these. 00:37:32.330 --> 00:37:36.410 We have produce trays, and in the top, 00:37:36.410 --> 00:37:38.230 we just have a squeeze bottle. 00:37:38.230 --> 00:37:39.530 Real scientific. 00:37:39.530 --> 00:37:43.020 Cost me, I think, $0.89 to empty and fill up with water. 00:37:43.020 --> 00:37:46.130 And we spray on the tag. 00:37:46.130 --> 00:37:48.260 The one below that, we got a squeeze bottle. 00:37:48.260 --> 00:37:49.040 That was cheaper. 00:37:49.040 --> 00:37:52.880 That was, like, $0.39, and we just squeeze a stream on it. 00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:57.440 Now, on the top, we run the tap, and we have a calibrated hand 00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.740 splashing water across the tag, looking at different levels 00:38:00.740 --> 00:38:02.043 of moisture on the tag. 00:38:02.043 --> 00:38:03.710 And here's one of the interesting things 00:38:03.710 --> 00:38:04.670 that we found. 00:38:04.670 --> 00:38:11.160 If you have untreated board, any water on the tag, the tag 00:38:11.160 --> 00:38:11.940 disappears. 00:38:11.940 --> 00:38:14.130 You can't read it. 00:38:14.130 --> 00:38:15.900 And in the bottom picture, you see 00:38:15.900 --> 00:38:17.880 how the water has worked its way into some 00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:20.920 of the holes of the case. 00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:22.180 It holds moisture. 00:38:22.180 --> 00:38:23.460 You still have problems. 00:38:23.460 --> 00:38:26.790 And you can't always read those after the water application 00:38:26.790 --> 00:38:27.970 stops. 00:38:27.970 --> 00:38:31.560 However, if you have treated board 00:38:31.560 --> 00:38:36.040 and you do this exact test, as soon as you stop the water, 00:38:36.040 --> 00:38:40.690 whether it's a spray, a squeeze bottle, or a flood of water, 00:38:40.690 --> 00:38:43.530 the second you stop that water that drains, 00:38:43.530 --> 00:38:45.330 that tag reads again. 00:38:45.330 --> 00:38:48.810 That is no different than a tag embedded 00:38:48.810 --> 00:38:51.090 in a returnable plastic container. 00:38:51.090 --> 00:38:56.070 If you run water over those, the tags still disappears. 00:38:56.070 --> 00:38:59.250 There's no magic that if you bury a tag in plastic, 00:38:59.250 --> 00:39:02.460 you can still spray it with water and get the tag to read. 00:39:02.460 --> 00:39:04.223 You can spray it with water for cleaning. 00:39:04.223 --> 00:39:05.640 But here was an interesting thing. 00:39:05.640 --> 00:39:06.810 My wife is here with me. 00:39:06.810 --> 00:39:09.960 And I was talking to her about returnable containers, 00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:13.020 and she worked for a company in Dallas. 00:39:13.020 --> 00:39:16.320 We made a one-way container for a company, 00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:18.630 and it was electronic company in Dallas. 00:39:18.630 --> 00:39:21.210 They came back a year later and wanted 00:39:21.210 --> 00:39:23.640 us to rebuild this corrugated box, 00:39:23.640 --> 00:39:26.310 and it was about the length and width this table. 00:39:26.310 --> 00:39:27.630 About this deep. 00:39:27.630 --> 00:39:32.020 They had used it every week for a shipment to a plant 00:39:32.020 --> 00:39:34.350 and back for a year, and then they 00:39:34.350 --> 00:39:36.960 asked them to rebuild it rather than a new one. 00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:38.520 Out of corrugated. 00:39:38.520 --> 00:39:42.930 Now, it was triple wall, but there is a good reusable. 00:39:42.930 --> 00:39:47.040 Frito-Lay uses returnable corrugated boxes 00:39:47.040 --> 00:39:49.387 for all of their chips because they control 00:39:49.387 --> 00:39:50.970 the placement on the shelves, and then 00:39:50.970 --> 00:39:52.887 they tick the boxes back, and they reuse them, 00:39:52.887 --> 00:39:54.870 and they can reuse them for months at a time 00:39:54.870 --> 00:39:56.190 because they don't get beat up. 00:39:56.190 --> 00:39:57.640 Some good opportunities. 00:39:57.640 --> 00:40:00.780 Now, There's what we talked about. 00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:02.220 Read stopped during water. 00:40:02.220 --> 00:40:05.280 They'll continue to fail if it becomes saturated, 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:08.190 but they resume failing if it's treated. 00:40:08.190 --> 00:40:14.580 And with that, I'm going to sit down and start drinking, 00:40:14.580 --> 00:40:17.565 and I'm going to turn this over to Dr. [INAUDIBLE] 00:40:17.565 --> 00:40:19.050 from Florida. 00:40:19.050 --> 00:40:22.880 Appreciate your time and attention. 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:26.268 [APPLAUSE] 00:40:34.020 --> 00:40:38.010 [INAUDIBLE] 00:40:38.010 --> 00:40:40.010 PROFESSOR 2: I'm very sorry for some of you that 00:40:40.010 --> 00:40:42.420 were done with me yesterday. 00:40:42.420 --> 00:40:43.200 I'm always back. 00:40:43.200 --> 00:40:44.220 It's like a bad cold. 00:40:44.220 --> 00:40:46.740 I always come back. 00:40:46.740 --> 00:40:48.750 I'm going to go fast because we have lunch, 00:40:48.750 --> 00:40:53.770 and so I'm sorry [INAUDIBLE] listening. 00:40:53.770 --> 00:40:54.270 OK. 00:40:54.270 --> 00:40:55.260 Well, thank you again. 00:40:55.260 --> 00:40:57.780 And we are going to talk about packaging 00:40:57.780 --> 00:41:02.010 and a few of the thing that Rob discussed a little bit earlier, 00:41:02.010 --> 00:41:03.150 I'm going to dressed them. 00:41:03.150 --> 00:41:04.770 That's very interesting. 00:41:04.770 --> 00:41:06.660 Very quick, it's-- 00:41:06.660 --> 00:41:09.450 I explained about the Center for Production Retailing yesterday. 00:41:09.450 --> 00:41:11.580 And we are trying to develop smart packaging 00:41:11.580 --> 00:41:14.100 for the food industry and the pharmaceutical industry. 00:41:14.100 --> 00:41:16.500 And the one thing that we started 00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:19.110 is well in this area of RFID. 00:41:19.110 --> 00:41:22.830 This is what happened in 2003, when Fretwell, a company based 00:41:22.830 --> 00:41:24.730 in Plant City, Florida, came to us and said, 00:41:24.730 --> 00:41:26.188 we're going to give you an RFID lab 00:41:26.188 --> 00:41:27.640 and start to play with this thing. 00:41:27.640 --> 00:41:29.700 And the reason why it was a good mass for the food industry 00:41:29.700 --> 00:41:31.450 is because we have already infrastructure. 00:41:31.450 --> 00:41:33.610 We have 14 cold rooms, temperature, 00:41:33.610 --> 00:41:34.830 humidity programmable. 00:41:34.830 --> 00:41:36.220 And we have two freezers. 00:41:36.220 --> 00:41:38.340 We have two [INAUDIBLE] container. 00:41:38.340 --> 00:41:41.430 One refrigerated trailer, and even a 727 freighter 00:41:41.430 --> 00:41:44.700 that they don't allow me to fly, luckily for everybody. 00:41:44.700 --> 00:41:47.940 But the goal was, at that time, is 00:41:47.940 --> 00:41:51.330 that to get all the RFID hardware and software 00:41:51.330 --> 00:41:53.310 manufacturer to have a start there. 00:41:53.310 --> 00:41:54.900 And since then, every three months, 00:41:54.900 --> 00:41:58.750 they come and they upgrade our equipment, software, hardware. 00:41:58.750 --> 00:42:00.270 So that's pretty neat for that. 00:42:00.270 --> 00:42:04.710 We always get the new stuff pretty ahead. 00:42:04.710 --> 00:42:07.020 So our lab is designed like Rob. 00:42:07.020 --> 00:42:11.063 We have everything to measure all the impact of packaging 00:42:11.063 --> 00:42:11.730 and things like. 00:42:11.730 --> 00:42:12.750 That you see, Rob? 00:42:12.750 --> 00:42:17.010 I use a drawing so I don't have to put the boards to hide 00:42:17.010 --> 00:42:18.780 my dirt under this thing. 00:42:18.780 --> 00:42:21.130 OK, so very quick. 00:42:21.130 --> 00:42:23.130 The first thing that we did was with [INAUDIBLE] 00:42:23.130 --> 00:42:26.190 and Fresh Express, prepared salad and a head of lettuce. 00:42:26.190 --> 00:42:27.900 And we did shipping from coast to coast. 00:42:27.900 --> 00:42:30.812 Studied the tag location, and then the speed of the load. 00:42:30.812 --> 00:42:32.020 I'm going to go fast on that. 00:42:32.020 --> 00:42:35.790 The idea was to map a pallet and see where are the good place 00:42:35.790 --> 00:42:38.250 to put a tag and the other place that were critical not put 00:42:38.250 --> 00:42:39.667 a tag because you couldn't read it 00:42:39.667 --> 00:42:41.192 because the effective of the pallet. 00:42:41.192 --> 00:42:42.900 So we played for it with that for a while 00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:46.323 until we decided that we have to go further with that. 00:42:46.323 --> 00:42:48.240 So we started to compare different materials-- 00:42:48.240 --> 00:42:53.760 plastic, wire bound, wooden crate, and corrugated boxes. 00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:56.850 And I apologize for the wood crate. 00:42:56.850 --> 00:42:59.850 I was still learning how to drive the Publix forklift. 00:42:59.850 --> 00:43:02.590 And the corners were pretty stiff on this thing. 00:43:02.590 --> 00:43:05.453 But the idea was to compare what was the effective if you're 00:43:05.453 --> 00:43:07.620 using because these are coming from the same grower, 00:43:07.620 --> 00:43:10.245 and they have different kind of packaging and things like that. 00:43:10.245 --> 00:43:11.520 So we wanted to study that. 00:43:11.520 --> 00:43:13.450 And we came with a different thing. 00:43:13.450 --> 00:43:15.540 But the problem that we discovered 00:43:15.540 --> 00:43:19.800 is that when people were looking for readability, read rate, 00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:21.660 we were having pretty low number. 00:43:21.660 --> 00:43:23.068 And they were like, oh, man. 00:43:23.068 --> 00:43:23.610 That's awful. 00:43:23.610 --> 00:43:26.160 But I said, welll, it's because we were losing the tag. 00:43:26.160 --> 00:43:28.630 You cannot read them if they are not there anymore. 00:43:28.630 --> 00:43:32.280 And we started to discover a lot of falling tags everywhere. 00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:34.600 And that was a big issue. 00:43:34.600 --> 00:43:36.930 One thing that we decided is that, why 00:43:36.930 --> 00:43:39.240 we don't look a little bit further and see 00:43:39.240 --> 00:43:41.490 when you pack something in a package, 00:43:41.490 --> 00:43:45.180 it should stay with the package, the RFID tag all the time, 00:43:45.180 --> 00:43:46.890 at least identification. 00:43:46.890 --> 00:43:50.310 And this is where it started to trigger that we should always 00:43:50.310 --> 00:43:54.390 try to improve the way of mixing tag, 00:43:54.390 --> 00:43:57.450 RFID tag with packaging by trying to know if we cannot, 00:43:57.450 --> 00:43:59.160 in the process of making the package, 00:43:59.160 --> 00:44:03.420 just get the RFID tags inside and make it one step rather 00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:04.720 than many steps. 00:44:04.720 --> 00:44:06.290 So we started to investigate that. 00:44:06.290 --> 00:44:07.950 So what we did is that we started 00:44:07.950 --> 00:44:11.610 to embed RFID tag on reusable plastic container. 00:44:11.610 --> 00:44:14.100 Of course, we reduced the use, the cost per use. 00:44:14.100 --> 00:44:15.600 So this tag is there. 00:44:15.600 --> 00:44:17.940 You cannot see it, but it's there. 00:44:17.940 --> 00:44:21.750 And that was doing with the injection molding plastic 00:44:21.750 --> 00:44:22.530 that we did that. 00:44:22.530 --> 00:44:25.297 So we can always track the base because the wall, 00:44:25.297 --> 00:44:26.130 you can change them. 00:44:26.130 --> 00:44:28.457 Because if you break one wall, you can change it. 00:44:28.457 --> 00:44:29.790 But the base is always the base. 00:44:29.790 --> 00:44:32.670 And so we can always track the life of these RPC 00:44:32.670 --> 00:44:34.920 because sometimes, they are used in different industry 00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:37.630 where you're trying to use them for different use. 00:44:37.630 --> 00:44:42.240 And so what we did during injection molding process, 00:44:42.240 --> 00:44:44.320 and it cannot be removed. 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:46.200 But the interesting is that we were always 00:44:46.200 --> 00:44:48.120 wondering, when you inject plastic, 00:44:48.120 --> 00:44:51.150 it's very high temperature, and a lot of friction in the mold. 00:44:51.150 --> 00:44:54.450 And is a tag can survive that, and can we locate the tag 00:44:54.450 --> 00:44:55.410 at the right place. 00:44:55.410 --> 00:44:58.920 And if that happened, it was easier than we expected. 00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:00.090 They were very tough. 00:45:00.090 --> 00:45:01.950 And what is interesting is that I 00:45:01.950 --> 00:45:05.980 can cut pretty much the price of that by skipping a few steps. 00:45:05.980 --> 00:45:09.615 So I don't need a fancy RFID tag in this thing, 00:45:09.615 --> 00:45:10.740 and I don't need very much. 00:45:10.740 --> 00:45:12.780 In fact, we're going to see later, 00:45:12.780 --> 00:45:14.830 I only need the chips once in a while. 00:45:14.830 --> 00:45:16.890 So the price of the whole process is made. 00:45:16.890 --> 00:45:19.320 And this thing doesn't require any new equipment 00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:21.510 for the injection molding company. 00:45:21.510 --> 00:45:23.500 Any company can do that. 00:45:23.500 --> 00:45:25.800 So what we did was so we started to invest 00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:28.500 on smaller container, which was more 00:45:28.500 --> 00:45:31.470 challenging because the thickness of the chip 00:45:31.470 --> 00:45:34.240 is what is limit the thickness of my wall. 00:45:34.240 --> 00:45:36.380 But you can always find a place to put it. 00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:40.150 So as I said, we don't need these fancy labels. 00:45:40.150 --> 00:45:42.640 We need a chip, and that's it. 00:45:42.640 --> 00:45:44.180 And everybody can do it. 00:45:44.180 --> 00:45:46.660 So that's pretty cheap at what point, OK? 00:45:46.660 --> 00:45:49.990 So injection molding company can run 00:45:49.990 --> 00:45:53.470 a batch of regular container and just switch 00:45:53.470 --> 00:45:55.870 in a matter of a few seconds to with one 00:45:55.870 --> 00:45:57.563 with embedded RFID tag. 00:45:57.563 --> 00:45:59.230 And this is what we are doing right now. 00:45:59.230 --> 00:46:01.510 Of course, everybody's like, oh, item level. 00:46:01.510 --> 00:46:03.220 It's way too ahead, you know? 00:46:03.220 --> 00:46:07.810 But it just proved that I can take RFID tag container 00:46:07.810 --> 00:46:10.690 and put that in this container and drive the price 00:46:10.690 --> 00:46:14.020 to very, very cheap to the price on most of the chip only. 00:46:14.020 --> 00:46:16.480 So that's very interesting on that. 00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:19.905 Well, and also, we started to do with project 00:46:19.905 --> 00:46:21.280 with different nature of product. 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:25.360 And of course, because of the water and what we said, 00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:28.660 one of the big issues that if I have my tag and with water, 00:46:28.660 --> 00:46:29.680 I cannot read it. 00:46:29.680 --> 00:46:31.960 So we sometimes, we have to redesign the package. 00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:36.700 Not very much, but slight chance that I can position my RFID tag 00:46:36.700 --> 00:46:38.770 to a location that it will not interfere 00:46:38.770 --> 00:46:41.770 with being interpreted by the food that I put inside. 00:46:41.770 --> 00:46:45.160 So we're able to pinpoint location and redesign 00:46:45.160 --> 00:46:48.182 slightly some of these container and get these good read. 00:46:48.182 --> 00:46:50.390 In fact, I'm going to tell you something interesting. 00:46:50.390 --> 00:46:55.990 We did 1,000 container with tags embedded, and only one of them 00:46:55.990 --> 00:46:56.980 failed. 00:46:56.980 --> 00:46:58.570 All of them were good. 00:46:58.570 --> 00:47:01.060 So that was pretty interesting on that. 00:47:01.060 --> 00:47:04.090 What we are doing also in 2000, right now, 00:47:04.090 --> 00:47:08.240 is that we are looking for smaller and thinner design. 00:47:08.240 --> 00:47:10.820 Some of them, we just want to read 6 to 12 inches. 00:47:10.820 --> 00:47:15.400 So we're going to need some help on the design, antenna 00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:16.430 design on this thing. 00:47:16.430 --> 00:47:20.500 So I'm just asking everybody to help. 00:47:20.500 --> 00:47:22.270 On the pharma industry, well, this 00:47:22.270 --> 00:47:25.930 is something interesting because your container, 00:47:25.930 --> 00:47:27.610 if you put pills in it and you want 00:47:27.610 --> 00:47:30.760 to follow that, I can remove a label. 00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:32.710 But if it's inside the container, 00:47:32.710 --> 00:47:34.120 I cannot remove the label. 00:47:34.120 --> 00:47:35.500 It's inside the container. 00:47:35.500 --> 00:47:38.050 I can stack it up with tons of label. 00:47:38.050 --> 00:47:40.060 Well, it's still part of the container. 00:47:40.060 --> 00:47:41.080 And we did that. 00:47:41.080 --> 00:47:43.990 And sort of the thing is that prescription drug, using 00:47:43.990 --> 00:47:46.990 [INAUDIBLE] container has been something 00:47:46.990 --> 00:47:48.410 that we're working in pretty close 00:47:48.410 --> 00:47:51.160 to be successful on this one. 00:47:51.160 --> 00:47:53.710 And also, we work on the blood product 00:47:53.710 --> 00:47:55.630 right now and packaging company that you 00:47:55.630 --> 00:47:59.170 put in when you ship the pharmaceutical product 00:47:59.170 --> 00:48:00.040 on this thing. 00:48:00.040 --> 00:48:02.860 That was a fast presentation, but I'm 00:48:02.860 --> 00:48:04.960 going to let you, after that, just doing 00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:08.920 that, we're working very much, but we need some cooperation 00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:09.480 also. 00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:10.897 So thank you very much. 00:48:10.897 --> 00:48:14.713 [APPLAUSE] 00:48:18.060 --> 00:48:18.930 Once it's fast. 00:48:25.070 --> 00:48:25.570 Thank you. 00:48:28.490 --> 00:48:29.510 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:48:29.510 --> 00:48:33.850 PROFESSOR 3: We'll do the Laurel, Hardy thing. 00:48:33.850 --> 00:48:35.460 Jean-Pierre and I were talking. 00:48:35.460 --> 00:48:37.460 We were going to have a race to see who could do 00:48:37.460 --> 00:48:38.810 the presentation the fastest. 00:48:38.810 --> 00:48:40.670 So I'm going to win on this one. 00:48:40.670 --> 00:48:41.930 But all right. 00:48:41.930 --> 00:48:44.720 I'm first going to tell you guys who we are 00:48:44.720 --> 00:48:46.478 and why you should care. 00:48:46.478 --> 00:48:48.020 Then I'm going to tell you about what 00:48:48.020 --> 00:48:50.720 we're looking for out there as far as technology 00:48:50.720 --> 00:48:52.400 and why we want that. 00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:54.890 So we'll flip through. 00:48:54.890 --> 00:48:57.590 Or once I figure out how to work this. 00:48:57.590 --> 00:48:58.520 Ah. 00:48:58.520 --> 00:48:59.810 MeadWestvaco. 00:48:59.810 --> 00:49:03.290 We're into consumer packaging. 00:49:03.290 --> 00:49:06.300 We're into three principal areas. 00:49:06.300 --> 00:49:09.470 And if you look at these three principal areas 00:49:09.470 --> 00:49:14.450 and you think about RFID and ubiquitous tagging, 00:49:14.450 --> 00:49:17.240 these are three areas where they're 00:49:17.240 --> 00:49:20.060 prime candidates for RFID. 00:49:20.060 --> 00:49:22.070 The media and entertainment here, 00:49:22.070 --> 00:49:25.910 you have these high-value items in small packages. 00:49:25.910 --> 00:49:27.980 You're ending up with high shrinkage. 00:49:27.980 --> 00:49:32.690 You have the area where an out of stock is a big issue 00:49:32.690 --> 00:49:34.250 because if somebody walks in there 00:49:34.250 --> 00:49:36.170 and they don't find the title they want, 00:49:36.170 --> 00:49:38.600 they're not going to buy some other title. 00:49:38.600 --> 00:49:40.520 They're going to go to some other store 00:49:40.520 --> 00:49:42.170 with all the money in their pocket, 00:49:42.170 --> 00:49:44.337 and they're going to buy everything else they needed 00:49:44.337 --> 00:49:45.920 at that other store also. 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:47.930 Or to the consumer products. 00:49:47.930 --> 00:49:53.750 We heard about simply white earlier on here. 00:49:53.750 --> 00:49:58.910 That's another interesting thing for tracking out of stocks. 00:49:58.910 --> 00:50:01.230 And then we have the health care industry, 00:50:01.230 --> 00:50:04.550 where you have to be the huge issue of counterfeits. 00:50:04.550 --> 00:50:07.730 The FDA's basically just come down 00:50:07.730 --> 00:50:16.410 that basically strongly suggests RFID in the packaging there. 00:50:16.410 --> 00:50:18.690 The other area that you're probably 00:50:18.690 --> 00:50:21.600 more familiar with MeadWestvaco, or at least the Mead name, 00:50:21.600 --> 00:50:24.330 is in the consumer and office products area. 00:50:24.330 --> 00:50:28.890 And we're into RFID in that area thanks to Walmart. 00:50:28.890 --> 00:50:34.050 We're at the pallet level in shipping our goods on that, 00:50:34.050 --> 00:50:36.030 in that product line. 00:50:36.030 --> 00:50:40.560 Now, we've been looking at the RFID, 00:50:40.560 --> 00:50:44.980 participating in this area for about six years now. 00:50:44.980 --> 00:50:49.170 We were one of the early members of the auto ID center 00:50:49.170 --> 00:50:50.790 up here at MIT. 00:50:50.790 --> 00:50:53.940 We also founded a group in our company 00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:55.740 called intelligent systems. 00:50:55.740 --> 00:50:59.320 And I'm not sure if any of you had read about them. 00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:04.290 They were in the news for quite some time now here. 00:51:04.290 --> 00:51:10.290 Basically, that group came up with an intelligent shelf 00:51:10.290 --> 00:51:13.410 system where, unlike some of the other ones that 00:51:13.410 --> 00:51:17.280 were out there where people had sent multiple wires to each 00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:20.370 of the antennas trying to reduce the cost, 00:51:20.370 --> 00:51:23.130 we found a way of taking one reader 00:51:23.130 --> 00:51:27.810 and basically using that reader to read 100 antennas 00:51:27.810 --> 00:51:32.820 and having a single wire running down the line of 100 antennas 00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:36.270 and bringing it back. 00:51:36.270 --> 00:51:38.550 This, as you can think about this, 00:51:38.550 --> 00:51:41.190 is a really unique way of reducing 00:51:41.190 --> 00:51:45.190 the cost of the infrastructure by several orders of magnitude. 00:51:45.190 --> 00:51:48.430 And that was essentially our goal here as we got into this. 00:51:48.430 --> 00:51:50.850 We looked at the field and realized 00:51:50.850 --> 00:51:54.150 that for tags to be ubiquitous, the tags 00:51:54.150 --> 00:51:56.520 were going to have to be commodity-type items. 00:51:56.520 --> 00:51:58.290 And there were plenty of players out there 00:51:58.290 --> 00:52:00.840 like Alien-- we were in discussions with them-- who 00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:02.650 were doing a very good job of that. 00:52:02.650 --> 00:52:05.910 But people weren't really addressing the infrastructure 00:52:05.910 --> 00:52:07.390 successfully. 00:52:07.390 --> 00:52:12.930 So now, this last year, we sold the intelligent systems 00:52:12.930 --> 00:52:16.170 or most of the Intelligent systems to an outside group 00:52:16.170 --> 00:52:21.240 so that they could really concentrate on it full force. 00:52:21.240 --> 00:52:23.490 We still have a residual interest 00:52:23.490 --> 00:52:25.350 and are following it because we do 00:52:25.350 --> 00:52:28.020 think that it's very important for success 00:52:28.020 --> 00:52:33.340 in this field for that company to be successful. 00:52:33.340 --> 00:52:35.500 Our capabilities at this point in time, 00:52:35.500 --> 00:52:37.290 we do have production capabilities 00:52:37.290 --> 00:52:42.930 for doing item-level coding of tags, of testing those tags 00:52:42.930 --> 00:52:46.290 in line and tagging boxes. 00:52:46.290 --> 00:52:50.590 We have not seen the pool from the customer base, 00:52:50.590 --> 00:52:52.590 but we're positioned, and we're trying 00:52:52.590 --> 00:52:57.250 to improve that position daily so that we're ready when 00:52:57.250 --> 00:52:59.670 the market pull comes along. 00:52:59.670 --> 00:53:02.040 But basically, our ability to tag 00:53:02.040 --> 00:53:05.280 is anything we can put an EAS tag on today, 00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:09.250 we can switch over and do an RFID tag. 00:53:09.250 --> 00:53:12.815 Now, what we need as far as technology. 00:53:12.815 --> 00:53:14.190 We're looking for the things that 00:53:14.190 --> 00:53:17.640 are going to make our customers successful. 00:53:17.640 --> 00:53:21.690 And probably the primary thing there 00:53:21.690 --> 00:53:25.140 would be item-level tracking at low cost. 00:53:25.140 --> 00:53:29.370 And we've been hearing discussions yesterday and today 00:53:29.370 --> 00:53:32.520 on some of the things that would go into reducing 00:53:32.520 --> 00:53:34.480 the cost of the tag and such. 00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:36.930 But I also want to remind everyone 00:53:36.930 --> 00:53:42.030 that this doesn't necessarily mean 96-bit RFID. 00:53:42.030 --> 00:53:46.080 There's a lot of attention out there to chip lists, tags, 00:53:46.080 --> 00:53:49.470 to organic RFID. 00:53:49.470 --> 00:53:52.650 And these are areas that we're exploring 00:53:52.650 --> 00:53:55.860 and discussions with various companies on. 00:53:55.860 --> 00:53:59.190 But if you were going forward looking into the field, 00:53:59.190 --> 00:54:03.900 one of the things that I want to caution everyone on is that 00:54:03.900 --> 00:54:08.130 these things cannot sit there and expect to come 00:54:08.130 --> 00:54:11.340 in and require a whole new infrastructure through 00:54:11.340 --> 00:54:12.870 the whole supply chain. 00:54:12.870 --> 00:54:16.800 I mean, the 96 bit is a juggernaut 00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:18.720 going down that road there. 00:54:18.720 --> 00:54:22.425 We're going to see that infrastructure go in there. 00:54:22.425 --> 00:54:32.520 Or if the organic RFID can only read at 125 k megahertz 00:54:32.520 --> 00:54:34.530 and you don't have an agile reader that 00:54:34.530 --> 00:54:36.870 can read at both points, you're going 00:54:36.870 --> 00:54:38.560 to have a hard time selling those, 00:54:38.560 --> 00:54:40.890 that organic RFID in there. 00:54:40.890 --> 00:54:44.160 The same with the chipless tags. 00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:46.900 If you've looked at the various chipless technologies, 00:54:46.900 --> 00:54:49.140 it's very interesting, and it's very appealing to us 00:54:49.140 --> 00:54:52.020 because our desire is to be able to just print 00:54:52.020 --> 00:54:53.250 the RFID on there. 00:54:53.250 --> 00:54:55.920 That's the way we're going to reduce the cost down 00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:57.330 for our customers. 00:54:57.330 --> 00:55:01.410 But again, what are you looking at when you get a chipless tag? 00:55:01.410 --> 00:55:04.170 You're probably not looking at 96 bits, 00:55:04.170 --> 00:55:06.930 and you're definitely not looking at the same reader 00:55:06.930 --> 00:55:12.270 that you're using for reading your silicon-based tag. 00:55:12.270 --> 00:55:15.990 Now, there are value propositions out there 00:55:15.990 --> 00:55:20.040 that would draw towards things, these technologies. 00:55:20.040 --> 00:55:25.530 If you can identify the niche market that you're going after, 00:55:25.530 --> 00:55:27.030 we may have something to talk about. 00:55:30.150 --> 00:55:30.820 All right. 00:55:30.820 --> 00:55:33.150 The other thing is we have to look 00:55:33.150 --> 00:55:37.410 at the total cost of the tag over the lifetime. 00:55:37.410 --> 00:55:39.300 It's not just the cost of the chip, 00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:40.810 and I think we've heard that before. 00:55:40.810 --> 00:55:42.090 It's the cost of-- 00:55:42.090 --> 00:55:44.790 how much does it cost to actually put it on the package? 00:55:44.790 --> 00:55:46.150 What's the antenna cost? 00:55:46.150 --> 00:55:49.410 What's the crossover cost there? 00:55:49.410 --> 00:55:52.480 What's going to happen as far as testing. 00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:54.660 How do you handle the rejects when 00:55:54.660 --> 00:55:57.068 you get failed reads in the supply chain? 00:55:57.068 --> 00:55:58.485 How are you going to handle those? 00:55:58.485 --> 00:56:00.510 Those represent costs. 00:56:00.510 --> 00:56:03.960 And then finally, and we've heard that alerted to before, 00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:06.870 this disposal issue is going to come and catch up to us 00:56:06.870 --> 00:56:08.430 at some point in time here. 00:56:08.430 --> 00:56:09.685 What is in your antenna? 00:56:12.240 --> 00:56:13.380 Look at Europe. 00:56:13.380 --> 00:56:15.150 Look at-- there's places in New England 00:56:15.150 --> 00:56:21.390 that are starting to look at the metals and the landfills. 00:56:21.390 --> 00:56:23.190 And then the last area is one that's 00:56:23.190 --> 00:56:25.680 gotten a lot of attention here, and I'm glad to see it, 00:56:25.680 --> 00:56:29.160 and that's in the whole area of track and trace. 00:56:29.160 --> 00:56:33.930 Track and trace is a very, very valuable thing 00:56:33.930 --> 00:56:35.580 to look at, especially when you're 00:56:35.580 --> 00:56:38.370 looking at the pharmaceutical industries. 00:56:38.370 --> 00:56:42.180 But what's going to be out there in the data management 00:56:42.180 --> 00:56:43.535 infrastructure? 00:56:43.535 --> 00:56:44.910 Who's going to come up with that? 00:56:44.910 --> 00:56:47.760 How are we going to handle this data 00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:52.930 asset from various entities in the supply chain? 00:56:52.930 --> 00:56:53.560 That's it. 00:56:53.560 --> 00:56:55.280 I beat John Pierre. 00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:58.710 [APPLAUSE] 00:57:12.748 --> 00:57:15.040 PROFESSOR 1: I guess we're going to run this ourselves, 00:57:15.040 --> 00:57:18.560 so if you have any questions, come on down. 00:57:18.560 --> 00:57:20.750 Sorry, we felt like Miles Davis there with our back 00:57:20.750 --> 00:57:21.830 to the audience. 00:57:21.830 --> 00:57:24.440 But we wanted to learn something new at the same time, 00:57:24.440 --> 00:57:26.360 and it's hard to do it that way. 00:57:26.360 --> 00:57:28.010 So excuse us. 00:57:28.010 --> 00:57:29.110 Yeah. 00:57:29.110 --> 00:57:29.710 AUDIENCE: OK. 00:57:29.710 --> 00:57:31.660 Just one question. 00:57:31.660 --> 00:57:35.710 Again, for what changes are you seeing 00:57:35.710 --> 00:57:41.080 to the metrics as you experiment with this technology 00:57:41.080 --> 00:57:42.542 in your packaging design? 00:57:42.542 --> 00:57:44.500 What do you measure to measure the performance? 00:57:44.500 --> 00:57:45.880 Is that measure changing? 00:57:45.880 --> 00:57:49.180 Units that you measure may be changing. 00:57:49.180 --> 00:57:51.520 What have you experienced with all your testing 00:57:51.520 --> 00:57:55.047 or what you might see in the future? 00:57:55.047 --> 00:57:57.130 PROFESSOR 1: I'm not sure this is the same answer, 00:57:57.130 --> 00:57:59.990 but I don't see much new at all. 00:57:59.990 --> 00:58:05.800 Honestly, units are the same that I used in my graduate work 00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:09.190 studying random vibration as an energy source. 00:58:11.860 --> 00:58:19.750 RF is a great area, and I'm not here to disavow it in any way. 00:58:19.750 --> 00:58:21.910 But it's a technology. 00:58:21.910 --> 00:58:25.090 It's not a panacea. 00:58:25.090 --> 00:58:28.660 With all due deference to previous speakers, 00:58:28.660 --> 00:58:31.480 I don't think it's worthy of a discipline. 00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:36.400 I did get caught short here briefly by asking the gentleman 00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:40.150 from IBM if they still had bar code specialists on staff, 00:58:40.150 --> 00:58:42.700 and he said, yes, we do, although he might not 00:58:42.700 --> 00:58:44.260 have been sure what they did. 00:58:44.260 --> 00:58:46.360 But I know in Michigan, we've gotten rid 00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:48.610 of bar code specialists. 00:58:48.610 --> 00:58:52.570 And one of my students is working with Simon Langford 00:58:52.570 --> 00:58:54.310 at Walmart running their lab. 00:58:54.310 --> 00:58:58.240 And when he was hired, the comment Simon made 00:58:58.240 --> 00:59:00.340 was that we hope in three years you don't 00:59:00.340 --> 00:59:03.820 have a job because the intent was to make this 00:59:03.820 --> 00:59:06.820 so broadly based across the company that it becomes 00:59:06.820 --> 00:59:11.060 as common as UPC, and you don't need anything special. 00:59:11.060 --> 00:59:15.067 It's just an adaptive technology that helps. 00:59:15.067 --> 00:59:15.900 AUDIENCE: Thank you. 00:59:20.238 --> 00:59:21.780 AUDIENCE: Hi, I'm Patrick [INAUDIBLE] 00:59:21.780 --> 00:59:22.945 from Georgetown University. 00:59:22.945 --> 00:59:25.320 And I want to thank you guys first for this presentation. 00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:28.890 I think it outlined a lot of the shortcomings 00:59:28.890 --> 00:59:31.380 in this technology set in on-- 00:59:31.380 --> 00:59:32.700 PROFESSOR 1: Opportunities. 00:59:32.700 --> 00:59:33.600 AUDIENCE: Opportunities, yes. 00:59:33.600 --> 00:59:34.140 Absolutely. 00:59:34.140 --> 00:59:36.900 And I've sat in on several government meetings 00:59:36.900 --> 00:59:40.890 on launching RFID for identity management. 00:59:40.890 --> 00:59:43.050 And the shortcomings that I'm seeing time and time 00:59:43.050 --> 00:59:45.113 again are the lack of understanding from, 00:59:45.113 --> 00:59:47.280 and I don't want to name names, but these consulting 00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:49.560 companies that kind of promise RFID in a box 00:59:49.560 --> 00:59:51.690 and passive allowing you to drive through 00:59:51.690 --> 00:59:53.400 at 55 miles an hour and things like that. 00:59:53.400 --> 00:59:55.002 And it's just not being answered. 00:59:55.002 --> 00:59:56.460 So I think research like this would 00:59:56.460 --> 00:59:59.040 be very advantageous to be out there 00:59:59.040 --> 01:00:00.600 in the public for the industry. 01:00:00.600 --> 01:00:04.080 My question is on pharmaceutical. 01:00:04.080 --> 01:00:08.070 The FDA has asked to secure around counterfeiting 01:00:08.070 --> 01:00:10.718 that there's over, covert, and forensic. 01:00:10.718 --> 01:00:12.510 And in the launches that are out there now, 01:00:12.510 --> 01:00:13.860 you're seeing overt and covert. 01:00:13.860 --> 01:00:15.950 You're not seeing forensic. 01:00:15.950 --> 01:00:18.760 And I'm curious if anyone can answer that. 01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:21.510 And then my last as a potential wag of the finger. 01:00:21.510 --> 01:00:24.540 I hope none of you are responsible for those damn huge 01:00:24.540 --> 01:00:28.080 plastic containers for my small microchip that 01:00:28.080 --> 01:00:30.420 are frustratingly impossible to open. 01:00:30.420 --> 01:00:33.270 So thanks again. 01:00:33.270 --> 01:00:35.362 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 01:00:42.522 --> 01:00:44.480 PROFESSOR 1: I don't have a really good answer, 01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:48.410 I guess, on the forensic. 01:00:48.410 --> 01:00:51.350 We have done work with both overt and covert, 01:00:51.350 --> 01:00:55.880 and there are much better experts than at least the three 01:00:55.880 --> 01:00:56.578 of us on that. 01:00:56.578 --> 01:00:57.620 It's kind of interesting. 01:00:57.620 --> 01:01:01.160 If you guys pull out $100 bill and just pass them forward, 01:01:01.160 --> 01:01:03.530 I'll show you how they have all of these security 01:01:03.530 --> 01:01:06.410 or anti-counterfeiting techniques involved. 01:01:06.410 --> 01:01:09.710 And for those of you visiting from different countries, 01:01:09.710 --> 01:01:17.420 our currency now has 20 overt or covert anti-counterfeiting 01:01:17.420 --> 01:01:20.840 detection devices built into it and at least 10 others 01:01:20.840 --> 01:01:23.060 that they won't talk about. 01:01:23.060 --> 01:01:25.850 But there's roughly 30 anti-counterfeiting features 01:01:25.850 --> 01:01:27.830 in an individual bill. 01:01:27.830 --> 01:01:29.570 And those are the people you really 01:01:29.570 --> 01:01:31.910 need to bring into this discussion 01:01:31.910 --> 01:01:34.130 because I'm certainly not a specialist in that. 01:01:34.130 --> 01:01:35.088 PROFESSOR 3: All right. 01:01:35.088 --> 01:01:36.260 Well, I'll answer that. 01:01:36.260 --> 01:01:38.270 I'd like to answer that. 01:01:38.270 --> 01:01:39.670 We're on it. 01:01:39.670 --> 01:01:42.240 We can't tell you what we're doing, but we're on it, 01:01:42.240 --> 01:01:45.350 and we have those three areas covered. 01:01:45.350 --> 01:01:46.350 PROFESSOR 2: Very quick. 01:01:46.350 --> 01:01:48.990 And also, on the area that we never discuss 01:01:48.990 --> 01:01:50.640 is temporary evidence. 01:01:50.640 --> 01:01:54.320 And have you seen something of plastic? 01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:56.870 It said if it's not there, don't use it. 01:01:56.870 --> 01:01:59.390 But if it's out there, you cannot read it anymore. 01:01:59.390 --> 01:02:03.960 And so we're discussing, and the best protection for [INAUDIBLE] 01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:05.540 is that nobody can see it. 01:02:05.540 --> 01:02:08.307 And this is what we're working on. 01:02:08.307 --> 01:02:09.140 AUDIENCE: Thank you. 01:02:09.140 --> 01:02:10.050 Good presentation. 01:02:10.050 --> 01:02:10.760 PROFESSOR 1: Thank you. 01:02:10.760 --> 01:02:12.385 AUDIENCE: Yeah, John Helford from Mars. 01:02:12.385 --> 01:02:14.540 My question is, how is RFID starting 01:02:14.540 --> 01:02:16.582 to work its way into the curriculum, particularly 01:02:16.582 --> 01:02:18.790 undergraduate, because it's important that they know? 01:02:18.790 --> 01:02:20.660 And also, how are you training the guys that 01:02:20.660 --> 01:02:23.390 aren't in school anymore about the utilization of technology 01:02:23.390 --> 01:02:24.332 in a supplier base? 01:02:24.332 --> 01:02:25.790 I'd be interested in that question. 01:02:28.390 --> 01:02:31.660 PROFESSOR 1: From a Michigan State standpoint, at least, 01:02:31.660 --> 01:02:33.820 I started teaching a class on RFID 01:02:33.820 --> 01:02:35.590 and packaging two years ago. 01:02:35.590 --> 01:02:39.130 And it's been an elective class, but I've 01:02:39.130 --> 01:02:42.430 had really good turnouts not only from packaging 01:02:42.430 --> 01:02:46.510 but from engineering, from supply chain 01:02:46.510 --> 01:02:50.320 management, logistics, because all of these cross over, 01:02:50.320 --> 01:02:51.310 these areas. 01:02:51.310 --> 01:02:56.170 And we now have companies coming in 01:02:56.170 --> 01:03:00.100 to hire our undergraduates and even our graduate students that 01:03:00.100 --> 01:03:02.320 will not even interview them if they haven't had 01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:07.228 the class because this is an area that companies are trying 01:03:07.228 --> 01:03:09.520 to find those answers and they're trying to find people 01:03:09.520 --> 01:03:14.380 that have hands-on work and feel so that they come in hitting 01:03:14.380 --> 01:03:19.120 the ground running, as opposed to having to be trained. 01:03:19.120 --> 01:03:21.730 They're also, just like yourself, 01:03:21.730 --> 01:03:23.950 conferences up the wazoo. 01:03:23.950 --> 01:03:26.170 You know, JP and I've talked repeatedly 01:03:26.170 --> 01:03:28.810 about we could be at a conference every week 01:03:28.810 --> 01:03:29.720 of the year. 01:03:29.720 --> 01:03:33.610 And if you could get more of them in Hawaii, we might. 01:03:33.610 --> 01:03:36.640 But that's really what you're almost limited to. 01:03:36.640 --> 01:03:41.650 But we are developing an online, web-based program 01:03:41.650 --> 01:03:46.550 for recent graduates like yourself. 01:03:46.550 --> 01:03:47.800 PROFESSOR 2: Yeah, very quick. 01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:50.890 And [INAUDIBLE] our packaging science program. 01:03:50.890 --> 01:03:54.950 Almost every course is where you can have RFID, a topic in it 01:03:54.950 --> 01:03:56.030 is already there. 01:03:56.030 --> 01:03:58.660 So we have a chapter in transportation, distribution, 01:03:58.660 --> 01:03:59.920 food packaging. 01:03:59.920 --> 01:04:03.040 We have customer product. 01:04:03.040 --> 01:04:05.530 All these packaging courses, they all 01:04:05.530 --> 01:04:10.340 have chapter where it's suitable to put it inside. 01:04:10.340 --> 01:04:12.290 PROFESSOR 3: And well, basically, we've 01:04:12.290 --> 01:04:14.660 been talking to our senior management about it 01:04:14.660 --> 01:04:17.120 for probably six years now. 01:04:17.120 --> 01:04:21.290 And I think they get it now. 01:04:21.290 --> 01:04:23.990 We're way past the early days when 01:04:23.990 --> 01:04:28.070 people thought RFID meant you'd read them from satellites. 01:04:28.070 --> 01:04:31.700 I think if you cornered anyone in our senior management team, 01:04:31.700 --> 01:04:35.950 you'd have a pretty good conversation. 01:04:35.950 --> 01:04:37.148 PROFESSOR 1: Last question. 01:04:37.148 --> 01:04:37.690 AUDIENCE: Hi. 01:04:37.690 --> 01:04:42.860 My name is [INAUDIBLE] from Gillette P&G. 01:04:42.860 --> 01:04:45.740 As part of EPCglobal, there's a strong effort 01:04:45.740 --> 01:04:48.680 to try and standardize on measures and metrics 01:04:48.680 --> 01:04:50.580 and, like you mentioned, John [INAUDIBLE] 01:04:50.580 --> 01:04:54.380 and both Jeff [INAUDIBLE] are co-chairs. 01:04:54.380 --> 01:04:56.600 I'm the third co-chair of that group. 01:04:56.600 --> 01:05:00.365 We'd like to get more academic involvement into that group. 01:05:00.365 --> 01:05:02.240 How do we make that happen so that you're not 01:05:02.240 --> 01:05:05.850 going off and doing these tests that are very interesting, 01:05:05.850 --> 01:05:08.270 but if we can try and synergize on those? 01:05:08.270 --> 01:05:10.148 I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. 01:05:10.148 --> 01:05:11.190 PROFESSOR 1: Great issue. 01:05:11.190 --> 01:05:13.580 I actually had a conversation with some people 01:05:13.580 --> 01:05:18.182 from EPCglobal yesterday to try and synthesize 01:05:18.182 --> 01:05:19.390 some of the work we're doing. 01:05:19.390 --> 01:05:24.440 I'm a co-chair-- actually, a chair 01:05:24.440 --> 01:05:28.250 of a new task group within ASTM, the American Society 01:05:28.250 --> 01:05:34.160 of Testing Materials, where we are developing procedures 01:05:34.160 --> 01:05:38.150 and reporting on how you test. 01:05:38.150 --> 01:05:42.200 Case loads, pallet loads, military applications, 01:05:42.200 --> 01:05:45.110 pharmaceutical applications, et cetera. 01:05:45.110 --> 01:05:48.260 We want to work in conjunction with you on developing these 01:05:48.260 --> 01:05:50.420 and share all the data. 01:05:50.420 --> 01:05:53.690 Where we're different from EPC, because it always comes up, 01:05:53.690 --> 01:05:59.120 is that we are reader tag frequency agnostic. 01:05:59.120 --> 01:06:01.340 We don't care what you use. 01:06:01.340 --> 01:06:04.970 Here is a standard procedure for measuring 01:06:04.970 --> 01:06:08.930 readability of a case, readability of an item. 01:06:08.930 --> 01:06:11.240 Read distance, read fields. 01:06:11.240 --> 01:06:12.390 Military. 01:06:12.390 --> 01:06:14.370 Whatever it is. 01:06:14.370 --> 01:06:18.920 And so if it fits into EPC through 13.56, 9.15, 01:06:18.920 --> 01:06:20.360 they might be identical. 01:06:20.360 --> 01:06:22.040 But if you have a closed loop system 01:06:22.040 --> 01:06:24.920 and are looking at that 134 or 2.4, 01:06:24.920 --> 01:06:28.790 5.8, and even different frequencies from that-- 01:06:28.790 --> 01:06:30.800 there's so much in military at 4.33 01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:35.150 right now that we just want to set up what that is. 01:06:35.150 --> 01:06:39.350 And if anybody contacts me, I'll be happy to respond. 01:06:39.350 --> 01:06:43.340 PROFESSOR 2: Maybe I can do something about it, about EPC 01:06:43.340 --> 01:06:46.440 and the standardization. 01:06:46.440 --> 01:06:49.580 I would say that in our lab, we touch many, many areas. 01:06:49.580 --> 01:06:52.460 Some of them will fall under EPC what you're looking for, 01:06:52.460 --> 01:06:54.320 and that's going to be good. 01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:57.440 But we still are going to keep doing other areas 01:06:57.440 --> 01:07:01.380 because the request of other applications is pretty big. 01:07:01.380 --> 01:07:03.590 And so if some of the things that we do 01:07:03.590 --> 01:07:06.560 will fall under EPC what are you looking for, this is great, OK? 01:07:06.560 --> 01:07:08.720 But we still going to have a lot of things 01:07:08.720 --> 01:07:12.220 that we want to keep running also. 01:07:12.220 --> 01:07:12.790 Thank you. 01:07:12.790 --> 01:07:13.330 [INAUDIBLE] 01:07:13.330 --> 01:07:16.080 [APPLAUSE]