WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.570 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.570 --> 00:00:02.370 align:middle line:84% The following content is provided 00:00:02.370 --> 00:00:06.330 align:middle line:84% by MIT OpenCourseWare under a Creative Commons license. 00:00:06.330 --> 00:00:08.430 align:middle line:84% Additional information about our license 00:00:08.430 --> 00:00:10.800 align:middle line:84% and MIT OpenCourseWare in general 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:12.730 align:middle line:90% is available at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:12.730 --> 00:00:17.035 align:middle line:90% 00:00:17.035 --> 00:00:18.910 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Miss Ratliff is going to give us 00:00:18.910 --> 00:00:26.010 align:middle line:90% a review of the safety seminar. 00:00:26.010 --> 00:00:29.790 align:middle line:84% And then, I want to carry on a discussion about safety. 00:00:29.790 --> 00:00:37.290 align:middle line:84% And then, I want to start introducing more 00:00:37.290 --> 00:00:42.710 align:middle line:84% about the narrative approach at the end of class. 00:00:42.710 --> 00:00:44.480 align:middle line:90% And I'm going to talk about-- 00:00:44.480 --> 00:00:47.350 align:middle line:90% 00:00:47.350 --> 00:00:49.600 align:middle line:84% I'm going to give a short narrative of a film 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:51.010 align:middle line:90% that I saw this past weekend. 00:00:51.010 --> 00:00:55.830 align:middle line:90% 00:00:55.830 --> 00:00:56.401 align:middle line:90% All right? 00:00:56.401 --> 00:00:58.276 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Found to be adequate, but they just 00:00:58.276 --> 00:01:03.080 align:middle line:84% went ahead anyway with testing and just approved it. 00:01:03.080 --> 00:01:05.455 align:middle line:84% So what they think happened is the joints of the engine 00:01:05.455 --> 00:01:06.305 align:middle line:90% gave way. 00:01:06.305 --> 00:01:07.162 align:middle line:90% The engine flooded. 00:01:07.162 --> 00:01:08.620 align:middle line:84% There was spray on the switchboard. 00:01:08.620 --> 00:01:12.490 align:middle line:84% And a lot of electrical problems occurred 00:01:12.490 --> 00:01:14.560 align:middle line:84% which resulted in the loss of propulsion. 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:16.810 align:middle line:84% They were unable to blow the balance tanks 00:01:16.810 --> 00:01:21.470 align:middle line:90% and the submarine was lost. 00:01:21.470 --> 00:01:23.980 align:middle line:84% So one of the conclusions they came to, 00:01:23.980 --> 00:01:28.030 align:middle line:84% or that there were many deficiencies. 00:01:28.030 --> 00:01:30.647 align:middle line:84% There were deficiencies in the shipbuilding 00:01:30.647 --> 00:01:31.480 align:middle line:90% and the maintenance. 00:01:31.480 --> 00:01:32.860 align:middle line:90% There were not enough records. 00:01:32.860 --> 00:01:35.390 align:middle line:84% No one really knew what had been done to the sub. 00:01:35.390 --> 00:01:37.890 align:middle line:84% No one knew what test had been done because the records were 00:01:37.890 --> 00:01:38.880 align:middle line:90% really poor. 00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:40.380 align:middle line:84% And there were also problems with 00:01:40.380 --> 00:01:43.390 align:middle line:90% the operational procedures. 00:01:43.390 --> 00:01:44.850 align:middle line:90% So SUBSAFE was created. 00:01:44.850 --> 00:01:48.730 align:middle line:84% And his goal, I thought of our code of ethics discussion, 00:01:48.730 --> 00:01:51.630 align:middle line:84% the goal of SUBSAFE is to provide, and I quote, 00:01:51.630 --> 00:01:57.630 align:middle line:84% "Maximum reasonable assurance of two things, hull integrity 00:01:57.630 --> 00:02:01.300 align:middle line:84% and operability and integrity of critical systems." 00:02:01.300 --> 00:02:03.030 align:middle line:90% So that is the goal. 00:02:03.030 --> 00:02:06.510 align:middle line:84% And it's very-- it's almost very rigid. 00:02:06.510 --> 00:02:08.850 align:middle line:84% going back to what we're talking about in the hall. 00:02:08.850 --> 00:02:11.430 align:middle line:84% But that is the purpose of SUBSAFE. 00:02:11.430 --> 00:02:12.990 align:middle line:90% They don't worry about weapons. 00:02:12.990 --> 00:02:15.360 align:middle line:84% They don't worry about the training of the crew. 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:18.180 align:middle line:84% All they're concerned about is keeping the hull intact 00:02:18.180 --> 00:02:22.010 align:middle line:84% and the critical operation of things on the sub intact. 00:02:22.010 --> 00:02:24.940 align:middle line:90% And that's where they're going. 00:02:24.940 --> 00:02:27.700 align:middle line:84% He started out, this first slide was actually the quote from 00:02:27.700 --> 00:02:30.460 align:middle line:84% George Santayana, "Those who cannot remember the past are 00:02:30.460 --> 00:02:31.783 align:middle line:90% condemned to repeat it." 00:02:31.783 --> 00:02:33.700 align:middle line:84% And one of the first things he talked about is 00:02:33.700 --> 00:02:35.290 align:middle line:90% a big part of safety is boring. 00:02:35.290 --> 00:02:37.480 align:middle line:84% It's doing the same thing over and over. 00:02:37.480 --> 00:02:39.130 align:middle line:90% It's checking twice. 00:02:39.130 --> 00:02:40.840 align:middle line:90% A lot of it's really dry. 00:02:40.840 --> 00:02:42.910 align:middle line:90% And that's the culture there. 00:02:42.910 --> 00:02:45.700 align:middle line:84% And he talked about the difference between NASA culture 00:02:45.700 --> 00:02:47.890 align:middle line:90% and what they had at SUBSAFE. 00:02:47.890 --> 00:02:51.423 align:middle line:84% He was saying how they have this massive benchmark exchange. 00:02:51.423 --> 00:02:53.590 align:middle line:84% And one of the differences that people from NASA say 00:02:53.590 --> 00:02:56.320 align:middle line:84% is you guys at SUBSAFE emphasize your failures. 00:02:56.320 --> 00:02:58.057 align:middle line:84% We don't feel the need to do that. 00:02:58.057 --> 00:03:00.640 align:middle line:84% He was saying that's a really, really important part of safety 00:03:00.640 --> 00:03:03.970 align:middle line:84% at SUBSAFE, looking back at past failures, going over it again, 00:03:03.970 --> 00:03:05.860 align:middle line:84% and again, and again, double-checking, 00:03:05.860 --> 00:03:11.580 align:middle line:84% and it was just really something that's embedded in the culture. 00:03:11.580 --> 00:03:15.630 align:middle line:84% So another thing that he talks about is 00:03:15.630 --> 00:03:18.190 align:middle line:84% you have this goal in mind is to provide this assurance 00:03:18.190 --> 00:03:21.890 align:middle line:84% to the hull integrity and the critical systems. 00:03:21.890 --> 00:03:25.940 align:middle line:84% He drew what he called the SUBSAFE certification boundary. 00:03:25.940 --> 00:03:29.780 align:middle line:84% And so again, along the same lines, it was interesting. 00:03:29.780 --> 00:03:32.332 align:middle line:84% I think they have probably some analogies to ethics 00:03:32.332 --> 00:03:33.040 align:middle line:90% that we can make. 00:03:33.040 --> 00:03:37.270 align:middle line:84% But he definitely drew a clear boundary around this area 00:03:37.270 --> 00:03:40.420 align:middle line:84% that he is only concerned about everything else is not 00:03:40.420 --> 00:03:42.230 align:middle line:90% his problem. 00:03:42.230 --> 00:03:44.253 align:middle line:90% I thought that was interesting. 00:03:44.253 --> 00:03:46.420 align:middle line:84% He also talked a little bit about the organizational 00:03:46.420 --> 00:03:51.100 align:middle line:84% relationships, how their program managers who are only 00:03:51.100 --> 00:03:52.990 align:middle line:84% concerned with cost and schedule, 00:03:52.990 --> 00:03:56.200 align:middle line:84% and how there's an independent technical authority that 00:03:56.200 --> 00:03:59.630 align:middle line:84% is not really part of the managerial process. 00:03:59.630 --> 00:04:03.358 align:middle line:84% They have to OK and they are completely separate. 00:04:03.358 --> 00:04:05.560 align:middle line:84% Maybe I'll draw a diagram if you guys want to see. 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:09.680 align:middle line:84% But just in terms of the way the organization is structured, 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:11.326 align:middle line:90% that's something that is unique. 00:04:11.326 --> 00:04:13.616 align:middle line:84% When you compare it to especially something like NASA, 00:04:13.616 --> 00:04:16.442 align:middle line:84% the technical leaders have a certain amount of independence 00:04:16.442 --> 00:04:18.620 align:middle line:84% because they know, they'll go and set 00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:22.773 align:middle line:84% the standards independent of what the managers say. 00:04:22.773 --> 00:04:25.190 align:middle line:84% Everything that they do, this is another interesting point 00:04:25.190 --> 00:04:30.020 align:middle line:84% I want to bring up, is based on objective quality evidence. 00:04:30.020 --> 00:04:31.907 align:middle line:90% I think OQEs have-- 00:04:31.907 --> 00:04:33.740 align:middle line:84% I don't know if they refer to them that way, 00:04:33.740 --> 00:04:36.710 align:middle line:84% but that was the abbreviation he used. 00:04:36.710 --> 00:04:40.310 align:middle line:84% And all of their observations can be tested 00:04:40.310 --> 00:04:41.960 align:middle line:90% and have to be verified. 00:04:41.960 --> 00:04:44.240 align:middle line:84% And so, this has direct, I thought, 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:48.515 align:middle line:84% linkage to what we were talking about when 00:04:48.515 --> 00:04:50.890 align:middle line:84% we were talking about knowledge and how you get to truth. 00:04:50.890 --> 00:04:53.540 align:middle line:84% But for them, it has to be able to be tested. 00:04:53.540 --> 00:04:55.810 align:middle line:84% It has to be able to be verified. 00:04:55.810 --> 00:04:58.790 align:middle line:84% He made the point that honest mistakes will kill you just 00:04:58.790 --> 00:05:00.200 align:middle line:90% as fast as any other mistakes. 00:05:00.200 --> 00:05:02.060 align:middle line:84% It doesn't matter if you think you did it. 00:05:02.060 --> 00:05:03.320 align:middle line:90% You can be a great person. 00:05:03.320 --> 00:05:06.080 align:middle line:84% But unless you work-- and if I can double-check, and test it, 00:05:06.080 --> 00:05:09.120 align:middle line:84% and verify, he's not going to go with it, which I thought 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:12.303 align:middle line:90% was a really interesting point. 00:05:12.303 --> 00:05:14.220 align:middle line:84% Another interesting point I want to bring up-- 00:05:14.220 --> 00:05:15.120 align:middle line:90% I'm really summarizing. 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:16.560 align:middle line:84% Because this lecture was 2 and 1/2 hours. 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:17.060 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:05:17.060 --> 00:05:18.048 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:05:18.048 --> 00:05:20.590 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I forgot to mention that part to you, [? Krista. ?] 00:05:20.590 --> 00:05:23.167 align:middle line:84% So I'm not going to go through all the nitty gritty details. 00:05:23.167 --> 00:05:24.500 align:middle line:90% I'm just picking out the parts-- 00:05:24.500 --> 00:05:25.417 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Doing great. 00:05:25.417 --> 00:05:28.260 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: --that I thought were interesting. 00:05:28.260 --> 00:05:31.590 align:middle line:84% He said something at the end that organizations 00:05:31.590 --> 00:05:33.600 align:middle line:84% such as SUBSAFE have to guard against three 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:37.410 align:middle line:84% things, ignorance, arrogance, and complacency. 00:05:37.410 --> 00:05:41.810 align:middle line:84% And we saw a few videos, one from a challenger, one-- 00:05:41.810 --> 00:05:43.460 align:middle line:84% I don't know where that oil rig was. 00:05:43.460 --> 00:05:44.050 align:middle line:90% Do you know what-- 00:05:44.050 --> 00:05:45.100 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: No, I don't know. 00:05:45.100 --> 00:05:45.600 align:middle line:90% Mm-mm. 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:47.690 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: --that actually, I guess, 00:05:47.690 --> 00:05:49.280 align:middle line:84% tipped over and sunk into the Atlantic 00:05:49.280 --> 00:05:50.420 align:middle line:90% I think is what it was. 00:05:50.420 --> 00:05:52.140 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:05:52.140 --> 00:05:54.630 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But according to this report, 00:05:54.630 --> 00:05:56.960 align:middle line:84% those were the three things that we need to-- 00:05:56.960 --> 00:05:57.680 align:middle line:90% 00:05:57.680 --> 00:05:58.610 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Ignorance-- 00:05:58.610 --> 00:05:59.490 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Arrogance-- 00:05:59.490 --> 00:06:00.530 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Arrogance. 00:06:00.530 --> 00:06:01.820 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: --and complacency. 00:06:01.820 --> 00:06:05.860 align:middle line:90% 00:06:05.860 --> 00:06:08.560 align:middle line:84% And I guess people ask questions as 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:11.313 align:middle line:84% to how SUBSAFE is able to navigate around those three 00:06:11.313 --> 00:06:14.890 align:middle line:84% things, and how it is that they haven't become complacent 00:06:14.890 --> 00:06:15.390 align:middle line:90% after-- 00:06:15.390 --> 00:06:18.235 align:middle line:84% I mean, I think it's been, well, since 1963, 00:06:18.235 --> 00:06:19.610 align:middle line:84% since the program was instituted, 00:06:19.610 --> 00:06:23.810 align:middle line:84% they never lost a SUBSAFE certified submarine ever. 00:06:23.810 --> 00:06:27.743 align:middle line:84% And so, somehow they've managed not to become arrogant, 00:06:27.743 --> 00:06:29.205 align:middle line:90% complacent, and stay-- 00:06:29.205 --> 00:06:29.465 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: [LAUGHS] 00:06:29.465 --> 00:06:30.595 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, I don't know about the arrogant part. 00:06:30.595 --> 00:06:31.770 align:middle line:84% What do you think about it, Professor Broome? 00:06:31.770 --> 00:06:32.620 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Keep going. 00:06:32.620 --> 00:06:33.370 align:middle line:90% You're doing fine. 00:06:33.370 --> 00:06:34.450 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:06:34.450 --> 00:06:38.770 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So and it was just interesting. 00:06:38.770 --> 00:06:41.230 align:middle line:84% And for him, I think the key really 00:06:41.230 --> 00:06:43.175 align:middle line:84% was just to reemphasize these past failures, 00:06:43.175 --> 00:06:44.800 align:middle line:84% to go over again, and again, and again, 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:46.550 align:middle line:84% so you don't get complacent, and to really 00:06:46.550 --> 00:06:50.370 align:middle line:84% understand why SUBSAFE was formed, and what it was about. 00:06:50.370 --> 00:06:53.390 align:middle line:90% 00:06:53.390 --> 00:06:57.890 align:middle line:84% Doctor, I guess, Dr. [? Levison, ?] I think, 00:06:57.890 --> 00:06:59.870 align:middle line:84% he made a point about accountability 00:06:59.870 --> 00:07:01.520 align:middle line:84% and responsibility that might have 00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:03.800 align:middle line:84% to do with the military, which is another reason why 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:07.580 align:middle line:84% this program might be so successful. 00:07:07.580 --> 00:07:11.440 align:middle line:84% She talked about-- was it the Challenger disaster 00:07:11.440 --> 00:07:14.887 align:middle line:84% she brought up that no one really was demoted. 00:07:14.887 --> 00:07:16.720 align:middle line:84% There was one person who got a lateral move. 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:17.000 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Oh, right. 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:19.090 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But everybody, actually, pretty much involved 00:07:19.090 --> 00:07:20.590 align:middle line:90% was promoted at a certain point? 00:07:20.590 --> 00:07:22.340 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: I think that was-- excuse me, 00:07:22.340 --> 00:07:24.952 align:middle line:90% I think that was the Columbia. 00:07:24.952 --> 00:07:26.035 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Was it Columbia? 00:07:26.035 --> 00:07:26.535 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:07:26.535 --> 00:07:29.120 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Because we've not had a whole lot to say that. 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:30.662 align:middle line:84% [? Sheila ?] [? Widnall ?] was there. 00:07:30.662 --> 00:07:31.640 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Uh-huh. 00:07:31.640 --> 00:07:36.550 align:middle line:84% And that was another interesting point that in the military 00:07:36.550 --> 00:07:39.520 align:middle line:84% and within SUBSAFE, and maybe there's 00:07:39.520 --> 00:07:42.270 align:middle line:84% a direct link between the accountability and responsible. 00:07:42.270 --> 00:07:44.270 align:middle line:84% You are held responsible for everything. 00:07:44.270 --> 00:07:45.310 align:middle line:84% If you do something wrong, there's 00:07:45.310 --> 00:07:46.690 align:middle line:84% no way that you're going to be promoted. 00:07:46.690 --> 00:07:48.280 align:middle line:84% They're not going to overlook it. 00:07:48.280 --> 00:07:56.358 align:middle line:84% And that might be one of the reasons they're so successful. 00:07:56.358 --> 00:07:58.650 align:middle line:84% Professor Broome, that's all I was going to talk about. 00:07:58.650 --> 00:08:00.473 align:middle line:84% I have a couple more pages of notes. 00:08:00.473 --> 00:08:02.640 align:middle line:84% Again, I could go on and on for a couple more hours. 00:08:02.640 --> 00:08:03.070 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:08:03.070 --> 00:08:05.100 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, let me see if I can't keep this off. 00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:06.750 align:middle line:84% They go on-- not for 2 and 1/2 hours, 00:08:06.750 --> 00:08:07.650 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:08:07.650 --> 00:08:08.790 align:middle line:90% That was 2 and 1/2 hours. 00:08:08.790 --> 00:08:12.450 align:middle line:90% That was 2 and 1/2 hours. 00:08:12.450 --> 00:08:14.770 align:middle line:90% He entertained all questions. 00:08:14.770 --> 00:08:18.474 align:middle line:90% But there was not a Q&A period. 00:08:18.474 --> 00:08:19.908 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I see. 00:08:19.908 --> 00:08:22.115 align:middle line:84% So who would stop asking a lot of questions. 00:08:22.115 --> 00:08:23.750 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So he just continued on. 00:08:23.750 --> 00:08:27.680 align:middle line:84% And I'm not suggesting he was terse 00:08:27.680 --> 00:08:29.390 align:middle line:90% with any of the questions. 00:08:29.390 --> 00:08:33.062 align:middle line:90% But the lecture was not-- 00:08:33.062 --> 00:08:34.520 align:middle line:84% in other words, the 2 and 1/2 hours 00:08:34.520 --> 00:08:39.429 align:middle line:90% was primarily his presentation. 00:08:39.429 --> 00:08:43.919 align:middle line:84% And tell you what, let me make some observations. 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:51.450 align:middle line:84% But I still want Miss Ratliff to be in charge of the discussion. 00:08:51.450 --> 00:08:57.800 align:middle line:84% One observation is that welding-- 00:08:57.800 --> 00:09:01.860 align:middle line:90% 00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:06.380 align:middle line:84% when I knew welding 30 years ago and welding today, 00:09:06.380 --> 00:09:10.350 align:middle line:90% it's still primarily an art. 00:09:10.350 --> 00:09:12.870 align:middle line:84% And as much as you-- all four of us 00:09:12.870 --> 00:09:15.960 align:middle line:84% can take the same welding course, all four of us 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:17.868 align:middle line:90% can get the same grade. 00:09:17.868 --> 00:09:19.410 align:middle line:84% But one of us is going to be a better 00:09:19.410 --> 00:09:21.370 align:middle line:90% welder than the rest of us. 00:09:21.370 --> 00:09:25.230 align:middle line:84% And the only way you can know if the weld-- if my weld 00:09:25.230 --> 00:09:30.450 align:middle line:84% or if your weld is better than ours is to check it afterwards, 00:09:30.450 --> 00:09:31.980 align:middle line:90% which is expensive. 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:34.140 align:middle line:84% Either tear it down and look at it, 00:09:34.140 --> 00:09:37.092 align:middle line:84% or they have these X-ray and other kinds-- 00:09:37.092 --> 00:09:38.550 align:middle line:84% I think it's X-ray, but other kinds 00:09:38.550 --> 00:09:41.180 align:middle line:84% of methods and sophisticated methods of telling 00:09:41.180 --> 00:09:42.430 align:middle line:90% whether or not a weld is good. 00:09:42.430 --> 00:09:46.560 align:middle line:84% So the only way that makes sense to check welding 00:09:46.560 --> 00:09:49.050 align:middle line:84% is, number one, is to make sure the people who 00:09:49.050 --> 00:09:54.000 align:middle line:84% do the welding are certified to do it-- highly certified. 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:58.410 align:middle line:84% And the second thing is to make some spot checks. 00:09:58.410 --> 00:10:02.130 align:middle line:84% And so far as I am concerned, the most important thing 00:10:02.130 --> 00:10:07.170 align:middle line:84% about spot checking is not the percentage spots that you take, 00:10:07.170 --> 00:10:09.925 align:middle line:84% just the percentage of your welds, 00:10:09.925 --> 00:10:11.300 align:middle line:84% and the percentage of your welds, 00:10:11.300 --> 00:10:12.710 align:middle line:90% and the percentage of my welds. 00:10:12.710 --> 00:10:14.790 align:middle line:84% It varies with the individual and it 00:10:14.790 --> 00:10:18.660 align:middle line:84% varies with the weather and other things in terms-- 00:10:18.660 --> 00:10:23.250 align:middle line:84% but welding is still an art form. 00:10:23.250 --> 00:10:24.930 align:middle line:84% Concrete pouring is still an art form. 00:10:24.930 --> 00:10:28.530 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] Depends on-- now, that really depends 00:10:28.530 --> 00:10:33.270 align:middle line:84% on the weather and other things, a lot of other anomalies 00:10:33.270 --> 00:10:34.920 align:middle line:90% that you can't control. 00:10:34.920 --> 00:10:37.440 align:middle line:84% And there's usually one person on a big job 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:40.710 align:middle line:90% that goes over and tests. 00:10:40.710 --> 00:10:43.260 align:middle line:84% Well, there are these people who go 00:10:43.260 --> 00:10:46.650 align:middle line:84% and get these samples of concrete 00:10:46.650 --> 00:10:49.540 align:middle line:84% and they test them after the fact. 00:10:49.540 --> 00:10:51.790 align:middle line:84% There's usually some old person who's 00:10:51.790 --> 00:10:55.420 align:middle line:84% been on hundreds of jobs that goes around and checks 00:10:55.420 --> 00:10:57.440 align:middle line:90% as the concrete is going in. 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:02.330 align:middle line:84% So this issue of the welding of the joints 00:11:02.330 --> 00:11:05.960 align:middle line:84% is not simply a matter of a technical matter. 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:10.880 align:middle line:84% It's a personal skill level, art form. 00:11:10.880 --> 00:11:12.590 align:middle line:90% And few people that think-- 00:11:12.590 --> 00:11:14.930 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: How did that come into the [INAUDIBLE]?? 00:11:14.930 --> 00:11:16.305 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Because the Thresher 00:11:16.305 --> 00:11:17.900 align:middle line:90% failed at welding joints. 00:11:17.900 --> 00:11:18.920 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: OK. 00:11:18.920 --> 00:11:19.940 align:middle line:90% I didn't hear that. 00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:25.550 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And they had to set up standards for welding. 00:11:25.550 --> 00:11:27.510 align:middle line:84% And the main standards were too-- 00:11:27.510 --> 00:11:30.500 align:middle line:84% as I think Miss Ratliff said, it's 00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:33.687 align:middle line:84% the certification of the welder and the spot checks. 00:11:33.687 --> 00:11:35.270 align:middle line:84% You didn't use the word spot, I think, 00:11:35.270 --> 00:11:37.070 align:middle line:84% but you knew something about that you check 00:11:37.070 --> 00:11:38.410 align:middle line:90% a certain amount of the welds. 00:11:38.410 --> 00:11:40.285 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I was imagining bolts or something, 00:11:40.285 --> 00:11:41.690 align:middle line:90% I don't know, welding joints. 00:11:41.690 --> 00:11:43.040 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Welding joints. 00:11:43.040 --> 00:11:43.780 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:11:43.780 --> 00:11:44.780 align:middle line:90% And there is something-- 00:11:44.780 --> 00:11:46.155 align:middle line:84% I don't know if I mentioned that. 00:11:46.155 --> 00:11:49.050 align:middle line:84% But you're right, the welders and people who work on the sub 00:11:49.050 --> 00:11:51.900 align:middle line:84% have to go through the certification process also. 00:11:51.900 --> 00:11:54.230 align:middle line:84% So not anyone-- any welder off the street 00:11:54.230 --> 00:11:56.000 align:middle line:90% can get on and build a sub. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:59.338 align:middle line:84% There are only-- I think he said only two civilian-- 00:11:59.338 --> 00:12:01.282 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:12:01.282 --> 00:12:03.064 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Ya'll understand it would 00:12:03.064 --> 00:12:07.007 align:middle line:84% need to be taken to [INAUDIBLE] certification. 00:12:07.007 --> 00:12:08.465 align:middle line:84% The materials have to be certified. 00:12:08.465 --> 00:12:08.965 align:middle line:90% And-- 00:12:08.965 --> 00:12:11.650 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Mm-hmm. 00:12:11.650 --> 00:12:13.040 align:middle line:90% And welding is dangerous. 00:12:13.040 --> 00:12:15.383 align:middle line:90% 00:12:15.383 --> 00:12:16.800 align:middle line:84% The most dangerous part of welding 00:12:16.800 --> 00:12:18.747 align:middle line:90% is not the obvious part. 00:12:18.747 --> 00:12:20.580 align:middle line:84% You think the most dangerous part of welding 00:12:20.580 --> 00:12:26.340 align:middle line:84% is handling heat and starting a fire or burning the operator. 00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:30.450 align:middle line:84% When I was an engineer, one of the first things 00:12:30.450 --> 00:12:31.950 align:middle line:84% they do with a construction engineer 00:12:31.950 --> 00:12:34.620 align:middle line:84% is put them in charge of welding. 00:12:34.620 --> 00:12:36.420 align:middle line:84% And you don't know anything about welding, 00:12:36.420 --> 00:12:37.270 align:middle line:90% but you're in charge of welding. 00:12:37.270 --> 00:12:38.778 align:middle line:84% You're the engineer in charge of it. 00:12:38.778 --> 00:12:40.320 align:middle line:84% One thing that you have to do is make 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:42.030 align:middle line:90% sure the welder wears his mask. 00:12:42.030 --> 00:12:44.730 align:middle line:90% Because sometimes it'll be hot. 00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:45.480 align:middle line:90% They get arrogant. 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:46.980 align:middle line:84% They think they can know everything. 00:12:46.980 --> 00:12:47.760 align:middle line:90% They take it off. 00:12:47.760 --> 00:12:54.090 align:middle line:84% And it'll burn the inside of their eyes from the inside. 00:12:54.090 --> 00:12:55.965 align:middle line:84% And I don't understand how that happens. 00:12:55.965 --> 00:12:59.760 align:middle line:84% But it's got something to do with something 00:12:59.760 --> 00:13:05.000 align:middle line:84% that's coming off of that weld other than heat and light. 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:08.690 align:middle line:84% Some other rays or something that's coming out. 00:13:08.690 --> 00:13:12.990 align:middle line:90% So it's dangerous. 00:13:12.990 --> 00:13:16.190 align:middle line:84% It's also dangerous in closed environments 00:13:16.190 --> 00:13:20.490 align:middle line:84% because you don't know what the oxygen levels are. 00:13:20.490 --> 00:13:23.100 align:middle line:84% The oxygen levels can be too high, 00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:25.598 align:middle line:84% or there could be some other chemicals in that air that 00:13:25.598 --> 00:13:26.390 align:middle line:90% could be dangerous. 00:13:26.390 --> 00:13:28.690 align:middle line:90% So that's interesting. 00:13:28.690 --> 00:13:31.110 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So and that is the root cause. 00:13:31.110 --> 00:13:33.360 align:middle line:84% And they talk a little about that 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:36.219 align:middle line:84% when you investigate an accident, such as what 00:13:36.219 --> 00:13:38.200 align:middle line:90% happened with the USS Thresher. 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.570 align:middle line:84% The Navy must get to the root cause. 00:13:40.570 --> 00:13:44.460 align:middle line:90% Where NASA does not necessarily. 00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:46.210 align:middle line:84% For example, everyone knows about the foam 00:13:46.210 --> 00:13:48.640 align:middle line:90% hitting the tiles on the wing. 00:13:48.640 --> 00:13:50.720 align:middle line:84% They still have not gotten to the root cause. 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:52.480 align:middle line:84% And Dr. [? Levison ?] was saying, 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:55.120 align:middle line:84% it would be interesting to see if they will in fact launch 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:56.620 align:middle line:84% in July because they're supposed to, 00:13:56.620 --> 00:13:58.910 align:middle line:84% and they still haven't gotten to the root cause. 00:13:58.910 --> 00:14:02.627 align:middle line:84% And that was a really important point, I mean, the joints. 00:14:02.627 --> 00:14:06.050 align:middle line:84% And they really are fairly sure that that 00:14:06.050 --> 00:14:08.060 align:middle line:90% is the cause that got to it. 00:14:08.060 --> 00:14:10.520 align:middle line:84% And it happened fairly quickly too. 00:14:10.520 --> 00:14:12.530 align:middle line:84% I mean, I thought it was interesting. 00:14:12.530 --> 00:14:15.745 align:middle line:84% One of the immediate responses from the USS Thresher being 00:14:15.745 --> 00:14:19.520 align:middle line:84% lost was all Navy submarines-- this is during the Cold War-- 00:14:19.520 --> 00:14:21.617 align:middle line:84% were prohibited to go below a certain depth. 00:14:21.617 --> 00:14:23.450 align:middle line:84% And they did that without thinking about it. 00:14:23.450 --> 00:14:26.850 align:middle line:84% Because they really place such an important part 00:14:26.850 --> 00:14:28.850 align:middle line:84% in getting to this root cause, and understanding 00:14:28.850 --> 00:14:35.820 align:middle line:84% until they do, nobody was allowed to go below this level. 00:14:35.820 --> 00:14:37.740 align:middle line:90% They set up a court of inquiry. 00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:39.690 align:middle line:84% They had to testify in front of Congress. 00:14:39.690 --> 00:14:42.120 align:middle line:84% And this was all, I think, just a couple of months 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:43.050 align:middle line:90% after the disaster. 00:14:43.050 --> 00:14:49.100 align:middle line:84% So very quickly, they moved to figure out what went wrong. 00:14:49.100 --> 00:14:50.860 align:middle line:90% So that's another interesting-- 00:14:50.860 --> 00:14:52.402 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Oh, that's another point 00:14:52.402 --> 00:14:54.040 align:middle line:84% that I'd like for you to mention. 00:14:54.040 --> 00:14:57.340 align:middle line:84% The one where this nuclear sub ran into this mountain? 00:14:57.340 --> 00:14:58.090 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Oh, yes. 00:14:58.090 --> 00:14:59.570 align:middle line:84% And I guess, I think that was in January. 00:14:59.570 --> 00:15:00.030 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: A mountain? 00:15:00.030 --> 00:15:01.947 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I don't know, I think it was January 00:15:01.947 --> 00:15:05.740 align:middle line:84% of last year, 2005, there was a sub that 00:15:05.740 --> 00:15:08.830 align:middle line:84% was, I think, off the cost of Guam somewhere 00:15:08.830 --> 00:15:11.400 align:middle line:84% and ran into an uncharted mountain. 00:15:11.400 --> 00:15:14.830 align:middle line:84% And apparently it was going at a pretty good speed 00:15:14.830 --> 00:15:16.440 align:middle line:90% and just hit head-on. 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:19.990 align:middle line:84% And the sub-- the hull remained intact. 00:15:19.990 --> 00:15:22.920 align:middle line:84% There was one person who died I think later from injuries 00:15:22.920 --> 00:15:24.870 align:middle line:90% that were sustained. 00:15:24.870 --> 00:15:27.370 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, the front of it looked like an accordion. 00:15:27.370 --> 00:15:28.057 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah, it did. 00:15:28.057 --> 00:15:28.652 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Really? 00:15:28.652 --> 00:15:29.250 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: [LAUGHS] 00:15:29.250 --> 00:15:29.820 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Oh yeah. 00:15:29.820 --> 00:15:31.570 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: It was an uncharted mountain. 00:15:31.570 --> 00:15:32.310 align:middle line:90% They ran into it. 00:15:32.310 --> 00:15:34.200 align:middle line:84% I guess, I don't know how fast they were running. 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:34.740 align:middle line:90% But-- 00:15:34.740 --> 00:15:35.610 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: They had to be going-- 00:15:35.610 --> 00:15:37.187 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: 30, 40, 50 knots maybe. 00:15:37.187 --> 00:15:37.770 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yes. 00:15:37.770 --> 00:15:39.300 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: That's about 20-- 00:15:39.300 --> 00:15:40.560 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:15:40.560 --> 00:15:41.430 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Sending-- 00:15:41.430 --> 00:15:42.370 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, some kind of like-- 00:15:42.370 --> 00:15:43.940 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: --beams out into the water-- sonar? 00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:44.340 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:15:44.340 --> 00:15:45.750 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Just standing there-- 00:15:45.750 --> 00:15:46.830 align:middle line:84% I mean, suppose you're standing there 00:15:46.830 --> 00:15:48.540 align:middle line:84% with a hot cup of coffee talking to somebody. 00:15:48.540 --> 00:15:48.870 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:15:48.870 --> 00:15:49.890 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: That's true. 00:15:49.890 --> 00:15:52.140 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: The thing is running at 40 miles an hour. 00:15:52.140 --> 00:15:54.060 align:middle line:90% That's 30 miles an hour. 00:15:54.060 --> 00:15:55.710 align:middle line:84% And all of a sudden it hits a mountain. 00:15:55.710 --> 00:15:56.410 align:middle line:90% What does that mean? 00:15:56.410 --> 00:15:56.760 align:middle line:90% It stops. 00:15:56.760 --> 00:15:57.090 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:15:57.090 --> 00:15:58.140 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I know. 00:15:58.140 --> 00:16:00.660 align:middle line:84% I can't believe there weren't more deaths, or-- 00:16:00.660 --> 00:16:01.285 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:16:01.285 --> 00:16:02.120 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] survive. 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:02.570 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:16:02.570 --> 00:16:02.790 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:16:02.790 --> 00:16:04.620 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But I can't believe it didn't 00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:06.720 align:middle line:90% like detect the mountain. 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:07.870 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I kind of think they would be sending sonar. 00:16:07.870 --> 00:16:08.620 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:16:08.620 --> 00:16:10.500 align:middle line:84% When you think that the satellites 00:16:10.500 --> 00:16:13.440 align:middle line:84% would have had all of that worked out, all of the-- 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:18.900 align:middle line:84% I've got a map on my wall at my office. 00:16:18.900 --> 00:16:20.310 align:middle line:90% So big. 00:16:20.310 --> 00:16:26.890 align:middle line:84% And it has-- of course, it's two-dimensional, 00:16:26.890 --> 00:16:33.330 align:middle line:84% but it's a three-dimensional relief of the whole Earth 00:16:33.330 --> 00:16:36.160 align:middle line:90% spread out on a plane. 00:16:36.160 --> 00:16:39.260 align:middle line:84% And you can see the mountains and all of that. 00:16:39.260 --> 00:16:42.880 align:middle line:84% And so, it was done by satellite. 00:16:42.880 --> 00:16:49.070 align:middle line:84% Well, each mountain, each mountain range is long. 00:16:49.070 --> 00:16:55.620 align:middle line:84% But each mountain looks like a little inverted V. 00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:57.650 align:middle line:90% And you can see-- 00:16:57.650 --> 00:16:59.360 align:middle line:84% I was thinking back when he said that. 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:00.860 align:middle line:84% I could see how they might miss one. 00:17:00.860 --> 00:17:01.360 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:02.730 align:middle line:90% 00:17:02.730 --> 00:17:04.087 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:17:04.087 --> 00:17:04.754 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Ah! 00:17:04.754 --> 00:17:05.730 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So it survived though, because it was-- 00:17:05.730 --> 00:17:07.230 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And they really saw-- yes, 00:17:07.230 --> 00:17:12.970 align:middle line:84% as a success because the sub was not only-- 00:17:12.970 --> 00:17:15.760 align:middle line:84% the hull was intact, but it was able to make it back 00:17:15.760 --> 00:17:17.380 align:middle line:90% to land on its own and power. 00:17:17.380 --> 00:17:19.280 align:middle line:90% And then we had to come get it. 00:17:19.280 --> 00:17:24.400 align:middle line:84% And again, the full front, right before it was smashed in, 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:25.599 align:middle line:90% significant damage. 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:28.534 align:middle line:90% But it was OK. 00:17:28.534 --> 00:17:32.670 align:middle line:84% So they resolved it as a success story. 00:17:32.670 --> 00:17:35.270 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And that was in '73? 00:17:35.270 --> 00:17:35.990 align:middle line:90% 19 what? 00:17:35.990 --> 00:17:37.140 align:middle line:90% I mean, the Thresher? 00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:38.780 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Thresher was in '63. 00:17:38.780 --> 00:17:39.640 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: The Thresher was '63. 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:40.348 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Mm-hmm. 00:17:40.348 --> 00:17:41.352 align:middle line:90% April 10, '63. 00:17:41.352 --> 00:17:44.740 align:middle line:90% 00:17:44.740 --> 00:18:03.590 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So let's see, Thresher, 00:18:03.590 --> 00:18:05.040 align:middle line:90% I remember the Thresher. 00:18:05.040 --> 00:18:09.365 align:middle line:90% 00:18:09.365 --> 00:18:21.380 align:middle line:84% The Thresher terrified people, because it was the first time 00:18:21.380 --> 00:18:24.590 align:middle line:84% that there was a nuclear accident with a sub. 00:18:24.590 --> 00:18:29.390 align:middle line:84% It was a nuclear accident in the military 00:18:29.390 --> 00:18:33.110 align:middle line:84% that we knew about, I mean, that people generally knew about. 00:18:33.110 --> 00:18:42.860 align:middle line:84% It was clouded in a lot of uncertainty. 00:18:42.860 --> 00:18:48.140 align:middle line:84% There were a lot of things that were kept secret 00:18:48.140 --> 00:18:49.703 align:middle line:90% about that sub. 00:18:49.703 --> 00:18:51.620 align:middle line:84% There were a lot of things that the newspapers 00:18:51.620 --> 00:18:54.080 align:middle line:84% said were kept secret that might not 00:18:54.080 --> 00:18:56.760 align:middle line:84% have been kept secret that there's just nobody knew about. 00:18:56.760 --> 00:19:03.240 align:middle line:84% So it was this cloud of distrust about that thing. 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:06.140 align:middle line:90% 00:19:06.140 --> 00:19:21.510 align:middle line:84% When I asked Mr. Ford about his opinion that on the one hand, 00:19:21.510 --> 00:19:27.020 align:middle line:84% the mission for SUBSAFE was a military mission. 00:19:27.020 --> 00:19:30.980 align:middle line:84% But the affected part is a particular-- 00:19:30.980 --> 00:19:33.530 align:middle line:84% potentially not just the environment, which he said 00:19:33.530 --> 00:19:34.040 align:middle line:90% was true. 00:19:34.040 --> 00:19:35.720 align:middle line:84% But all it told the general public, 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:37.880 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's not just a case where 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:40.340 align:middle line:84% there's a military accident that goes wrong 00:19:40.340 --> 00:19:42.230 align:middle line:90% and military people get hurt. 00:19:42.230 --> 00:19:44.950 align:middle line:90% It could be anybody. 00:19:44.950 --> 00:19:47.160 align:middle line:84% And my understanding of his answer 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:51.900 align:middle line:84% was that containment of the accident 00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:55.980 align:middle line:84% inside of the submarine was one of their missions. 00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:57.990 align:middle line:84% And that if-- that no matter how bad 00:19:57.990 --> 00:20:01.440 align:middle line:84% it gets, if it doesn't get out into the environment, 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:04.020 align:middle line:90% then it can't hurt other people. 00:20:04.020 --> 00:20:06.900 align:middle line:90% So he did answer that question. 00:20:06.900 --> 00:20:10.752 align:middle line:84% Now, that has a moral dimension, because you're 00:20:10.752 --> 00:20:12.585 align:middle line:84% talking about the range of affected parties. 00:20:12.585 --> 00:20:16.800 align:middle line:90% 00:20:16.800 --> 00:20:22.280 align:middle line:84% It also has this big possible question about affected parties 00:20:22.280 --> 00:20:29.320 align:middle line:84% that on the one hand, we can say that as citizens we 00:20:29.320 --> 00:20:31.500 align:middle line:84% take some responsibility for the Thresher. 00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:34.080 align:middle line:90% 00:20:34.080 --> 00:20:37.750 align:middle line:84% But if it's outside the 12 mile limit, 00:20:37.750 --> 00:20:40.610 align:middle line:84% and there are a lot of people who are not citizens, 00:20:40.610 --> 00:20:43.730 align:middle line:84% fishermen, and a lot of people, not 00:20:43.730 --> 00:20:46.760 align:middle line:84% to mention the environment, who were not parties 00:20:46.760 --> 00:20:51.890 align:middle line:84% to the decision but are affected parties or parties 00:20:51.890 --> 00:20:53.810 align:middle line:90% affected by what we do. 00:20:53.810 --> 00:20:56.930 align:middle line:84% And that becomes very international issue now. 00:20:56.930 --> 00:21:00.200 align:middle line:90% 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:12.130 align:middle line:84% In 1973-- '72, I finished my doctorate. 00:21:12.130 --> 00:21:14.380 align:middle line:84% And my dissertation was, guess what, on submarines. 00:21:14.380 --> 00:21:18.660 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] It was funded by the Navy. 00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:21.340 align:middle line:90% 00:21:21.340 --> 00:21:28.240 align:middle line:84% And my dissertation was on what you call a prolate spheroid. 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:36.000 align:middle line:84% So you've got an ellipse that you rotate in its minor axis. 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.210 align:middle line:90% And you get this football shape. 00:21:39.210 --> 00:21:45.690 align:middle line:84% And one of the issues was hull failure. 00:21:45.690 --> 00:21:58.870 align:middle line:84% And we were looking at hull failure under pressure 00:21:58.870 --> 00:22:01.860 align:middle line:84% because you're talking about a thin shell. 00:22:01.860 --> 00:22:06.360 align:middle line:84% And a term of art for my area of the study 00:22:06.360 --> 00:22:09.520 align:middle line:90% was called shell theory. 00:22:09.520 --> 00:22:16.990 align:middle line:84% And the issue was buckling of this hull. 00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:22.360 align:middle line:84% And before the hull would reach a pressure that 00:22:22.360 --> 00:22:29.570 align:middle line:84% would crack it or bend it totally out of shape, 00:22:29.570 --> 00:22:33.390 align:middle line:84% there was a failure mode that was much lower 00:22:33.390 --> 00:22:41.340 align:middle line:84% than that pressure in which part of the shell would buckle 00:22:41.340 --> 00:22:43.450 align:middle line:84% and was called snap-through buckling. 00:22:43.450 --> 00:22:49.070 align:middle line:90% That was another term of art. 00:22:49.070 --> 00:22:59.637 align:middle line:84% And if what I mean when I say oil can, that you've got a can, 00:22:59.637 --> 00:23:04.520 align:middle line:84% it usually has a long spout like this. 00:23:04.520 --> 00:23:06.820 align:middle line:84% And you put that spout down in a machine where 00:23:06.820 --> 00:23:08.440 align:middle line:90% you want the oil to come out. 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:13.300 align:middle line:84% And to get the oil to come out, this part back here 00:23:13.300 --> 00:23:14.200 align:middle line:90% is not flat. 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:15.910 align:middle line:90% It's slightly arced. 00:23:15.910 --> 00:23:20.360 align:middle line:84% And you press it, and then it clicks. 00:23:20.360 --> 00:23:21.800 align:middle line:90% You get click through. 00:23:21.800 --> 00:23:25.130 align:middle line:84% Well, you get the same thing with an empty beer can. 00:23:25.130 --> 00:23:28.700 align:middle line:84% You press it, and after a while you get it-- feel that click. 00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:31.840 align:middle line:84% If you let it go, it'll click back. 00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:33.640 align:middle line:84% That's called snap-through buckling. 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:38.560 align:middle line:84% And we were looking at means of finding the critical load 00:23:38.560 --> 00:23:40.120 align:middle line:90% for that snap-through buckling. 00:23:40.120 --> 00:23:42.000 align:middle line:90% And we found that it would-- 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:45.440 align:middle line:84% the buckling would actually occur 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:51.370 align:middle line:84% in small little elliptical sections 00:23:51.370 --> 00:23:54.760 align:middle line:90% around the middle of the shell. 00:23:54.760 --> 00:24:00.460 align:middle line:84% So we were interested in deep submersibles. 00:24:00.460 --> 00:24:15.380 align:middle line:84% And the Thresher was still alive in our conversations in 1972. 00:24:15.380 --> 00:24:19.940 align:middle line:84% So some of these issues bring back old memories 00:24:19.940 --> 00:24:21.110 align:middle line:90% that he was talking about. 00:24:21.110 --> 00:24:24.390 align:middle line:90% 00:24:24.390 --> 00:24:28.480 align:middle line:90% And let's see. 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:32.480 align:middle line:90% 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:36.800 align:middle line:84% Could you read again, please, Miss Ratliff, this mission, 00:24:36.800 --> 00:24:42.805 align:middle line:84% maximum reasonable assurance, blank, blank, blank? 00:24:42.805 --> 00:24:46.660 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Maximal reasonable assurance of hull integrity 00:24:46.660 --> 00:24:51.087 align:middle line:84% and operability and integrity of the systems. 00:24:51.087 --> 00:24:53.720 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So hull integrity has 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:58.070 align:middle line:84% to do with containing any accident-- 00:24:58.070 --> 00:25:03.780 align:middle line:84% nuclear accident within the hull as well as other things. 00:25:03.780 --> 00:25:08.750 align:middle line:84% So far as ethics is concerned, that containment 00:25:08.750 --> 00:25:13.045 align:middle line:84% means that the affected parties are only the soldiers. 00:25:13.045 --> 00:25:13.670 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:25:13.670 --> 00:25:17.750 align:middle line:84% And I should emphasize what you probably imply, 00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:19.912 align:middle line:84% the nuclear safety people and the SUBSAFE people 00:25:19.912 --> 00:25:20.870 align:middle line:90% were actually separate. 00:25:20.870 --> 00:25:24.694 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's not the same, meaning that [INAUDIBLE] 00:25:24.694 --> 00:25:27.562 align:middle line:90% no responsibility [INAUDIBLE]. 00:25:27.562 --> 00:25:28.137 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:25:28.137 --> 00:25:28.637 align:middle line:90% 00:25:28.637 --> 00:25:31.237 align:middle line:84% They have a healthy kind of something 00:25:31.237 --> 00:25:32.320 align:middle line:90% that goes on between them. 00:25:32.320 --> 00:25:34.486 align:middle line:84% But they're actually separate [INAUDIBLE].. 00:25:34.486 --> 00:25:35.102 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: The nuclear safety people 00:25:35.102 --> 00:25:37.096 align:middle line:84% are responsible for preventing accidents 00:25:37.096 --> 00:25:38.983 align:middle line:90% of the nuclear component? 00:25:38.983 --> 00:25:40.400 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Exactly, anything having 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:43.940 align:middle line:84% to do with the nuclear technology that's involved. 00:25:43.940 --> 00:25:46.672 align:middle line:84% And that really is [INAUDIBLE] about hull integrity 00:25:46.672 --> 00:25:47.628 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE]. 00:25:47.628 --> 00:25:52.410 align:middle line:90% 00:25:52.410 --> 00:25:54.030 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: One of the motivations 00:25:54.030 --> 00:25:55.680 align:middle line:84% for the research we were doing was 00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:57.540 align:middle line:84% that they were talking at the time 00:25:57.540 --> 00:26:02.340 align:middle line:84% about making the hull one solid section, no welding. 00:26:02.340 --> 00:26:07.670 align:middle line:90% 00:26:07.670 --> 00:26:08.960 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:13.220 align:middle line:84% Secondly, when it comes to military personnel 00:26:13.220 --> 00:26:16.560 align:middle line:84% on a nuclear sub, the only way you 00:26:16.560 --> 00:26:19.838 align:middle line:84% can get there, no matter what your rank, is first of all, 00:26:19.838 --> 00:26:20.380 align:middle line:90% to volunteer. 00:26:20.380 --> 00:26:22.290 align:middle line:90% You cannot be drafted. 00:26:22.290 --> 00:26:25.410 align:middle line:90% 00:26:25.410 --> 00:26:28.920 align:middle line:84% The second thing is that all of the officers in the United 00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:35.110 align:middle line:84% States submarine-- nuclear submarine service until Admiral 00:26:35.110 --> 00:26:39.947 align:middle line:84% Rickover's death were personally interviewed 00:26:39.947 --> 00:26:40.780 align:middle line:90% by Admiral Rickover. 00:26:40.780 --> 00:26:44.030 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] Personally. 00:26:44.030 --> 00:26:45.450 align:middle line:90% So you can say what you want. 00:26:45.450 --> 00:26:47.180 align:middle line:84% But in the end, I think that says 00:26:47.180 --> 00:26:50.620 align:middle line:90% something about selectivity. 00:26:50.620 --> 00:26:52.450 align:middle line:90% Because that was a-- 00:26:52.450 --> 00:26:54.880 align:middle line:90% he had a reputation for-- 00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:57.772 align:middle line:84% well, his reputation is best described by words 00:26:57.772 --> 00:26:59.230 align:middle line:84% that I would not use in this class. 00:26:59.230 --> 00:27:01.090 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:27:01.090 --> 00:27:03.670 align:middle line:84% But words that if he were alive, he would not object to. 00:27:03.670 --> 00:27:09.400 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] But so it was very selective. 00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:13.570 align:middle line:84% So the point is that a moral issue 00:27:13.570 --> 00:27:18.475 align:middle line:84% is that all of the people serving on a nuclear sub 00:27:18.475 --> 00:27:27.490 align:middle line:84% are volunteers and are people who are well-equipped 00:27:27.490 --> 00:27:29.614 align:middle line:90% with the technology. 00:27:29.614 --> 00:27:33.060 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think another interesting ethical issue is, 00:27:33.060 --> 00:27:40.730 align:middle line:84% I just thought of [INAUDIBLE] Professor [? Widnall ?] made 00:27:40.730 --> 00:27:43.510 align:middle line:90% the point that astronauts are-- 00:27:43.510 --> 00:27:46.830 align:middle line:84% there are people who have this mentality of let's go 00:27:46.830 --> 00:27:47.840 align:middle line:90% where danger is. 00:27:47.840 --> 00:27:50.178 align:middle line:84% And you're saying, these are not risk averse people. 00:27:50.178 --> 00:27:50.970 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:52.310 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: These are people who are adventurers, 00:27:52.310 --> 00:27:53.870 align:middle line:90% and they want to go to space. 00:27:53.870 --> 00:27:55.550 align:middle line:90% They train their whole lives. 00:27:55.550 --> 00:27:56.300 align:middle line:90% It's so hard. 00:27:56.300 --> 00:27:57.230 align:middle line:90% It's so competitive. 00:27:57.230 --> 00:28:00.090 align:middle line:84% Most astronauts don't even get the chance to fly. 00:28:00.090 --> 00:28:02.950 align:middle line:84% And so, safety standards are different. 00:28:02.950 --> 00:28:07.186 align:middle line:84% And you don't maybe expect [INAUDIBLE].. 00:28:07.186 --> 00:28:08.668 align:middle line:84% Instead, these are people, they're 00:28:08.668 --> 00:28:10.376 align:middle line:84% not under [INAUDIBLE] necessarily either. 00:28:10.376 --> 00:28:12.725 align:middle line:90% These are people who just-- 00:28:12.725 --> 00:28:15.100 align:middle line:84% they're not like military trained, they don't have this-- 00:28:15.100 --> 00:28:17.433 align:middle line:84% they have a different mentality and want to go to space, 00:28:17.433 --> 00:28:20.570 align:middle line:84% and want to fly, that they're-- and it's OK to relax 00:28:20.570 --> 00:28:22.413 align:middle line:84% the standards a little bit for them. 00:28:22.413 --> 00:28:24.288 align:middle line:84% And it's just something that I thought about. 00:28:24.288 --> 00:28:25.752 align:middle line:90% I thought it was interesting. 00:28:25.752 --> 00:28:27.220 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:28:27.220 --> 00:28:28.240 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Oh yeah. 00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:30.160 align:middle line:90% Because what this does is it-- 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.570 align:middle line:90% 00:28:33.570 --> 00:28:37.890 align:middle line:84% you all probably this movie by some of this repeats 00:28:37.890 --> 00:28:40.680 align:middle line:84% and some of it's Alien Two, Alien Three, 00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:41.935 align:middle line:90% how many do they have? 00:28:41.935 --> 00:28:42.810 align:middle line:90% Six or seven of them? 00:28:42.810 --> 00:28:43.248 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I've never seen it. 00:28:43.248 --> 00:28:43.748 align:middle line:90% But, like-- 00:28:43.748 --> 00:28:44.781 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:28:44.781 --> 00:28:45.990 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: You've never seen any of them? 00:28:45.990 --> 00:28:46.532 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: No. 00:28:46.532 --> 00:28:47.513 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Oh, come on. 00:28:47.513 --> 00:28:48.930 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Count yourself lucky. 00:28:48.930 --> 00:28:53.520 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] Alien, I'll never forget. 00:28:53.520 --> 00:28:56.730 align:middle line:84% The first time I saw Alien was in a movie theater in New York 00:28:56.730 --> 00:28:58.310 align:middle line:90% City. 00:28:58.310 --> 00:29:00.890 align:middle line:84% One of the things that I'll never forget about Alien 00:29:00.890 --> 00:29:02.630 align:middle line:84% was that I was standing in line to go in. 00:29:02.630 --> 00:29:04.493 align:middle line:84% As the people were coming out, I'll 00:29:04.493 --> 00:29:06.410 align:middle line:84% never forget the looks on those people's faces 00:29:06.410 --> 00:29:07.580 align:middle line:84% when they came out of that movie. 00:29:07.580 --> 00:29:07.750 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:29:07.750 --> 00:29:09.870 align:middle line:84% I wasn't too sure if I wanted to go in there. 00:29:09.870 --> 00:29:15.710 align:middle line:84% But the thing about Alien that makes 00:29:15.710 --> 00:29:21.680 align:middle line:84% a big moral issue for a class in engineering ethics 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:27.140 align:middle line:84% is that it was the first, I think it's fair to say, 00:29:27.140 --> 00:29:31.160 align:middle line:84% the first popular scientific-- science fiction movie 00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:33.920 align:middle line:84% made where the expedition was not 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.182 align:middle line:84% done under the auspices of somebody's government. 00:29:37.182 --> 00:29:38.390 align:middle line:90% It was a private corporation. 00:29:38.390 --> 00:29:43.740 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:45.210 align:middle line:90% So that changes everything. 00:29:45.210 --> 00:29:47.730 align:middle line:84% Because how much have the rest of us 00:29:47.730 --> 00:29:55.430 align:middle line:84% participated in their ethical and their safety 00:29:55.430 --> 00:29:56.270 align:middle line:90% standards and all? 00:29:56.270 --> 00:29:58.610 align:middle line:84% Well, we can say they have to pass government standards. 00:29:58.610 --> 00:30:03.240 align:middle line:84% But 100 million miles out, bringing stuff 00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:05.257 align:middle line:84% back that nobody ever has seen before, 00:30:05.257 --> 00:30:06.340 align:middle line:90% what are they going to do? 00:30:06.340 --> 00:30:09.010 align:middle line:84% They're going to-- well, the point I'm trying to make 00:30:09.010 --> 00:30:13.360 align:middle line:84% is that this movie Alien I think is 00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:17.770 align:middle line:84% a real contrast in ethical stances 00:30:17.770 --> 00:30:22.420 align:middle line:84% with what we see here in the Navy. 00:30:22.420 --> 00:30:25.810 align:middle line:84% Star Trek, if you remember, that was military. 00:30:25.810 --> 00:30:29.020 align:middle line:84% All of these others somehow government 00:30:29.020 --> 00:30:32.290 align:middle line:84% slash public-sponsored trips if not 00:30:32.290 --> 00:30:39.250 align:middle line:84% military trips or expeditions, even by the aliens. 00:30:39.250 --> 00:30:40.240 align:middle line:90% Even by the aliens. 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:43.890 align:middle line:84% Alien came out and it was business. 00:30:43.890 --> 00:30:47.230 align:middle line:90% 00:30:47.230 --> 00:30:50.800 align:middle line:84% If you ever see this movie called-- 00:30:50.800 --> 00:30:52.925 align:middle line:84% or the first one called Predator. 00:30:52.925 --> 00:30:59.100 align:middle line:90% 00:30:59.100 --> 00:31:00.060 align:middle line:90% You saw Predator? 00:31:00.060 --> 00:31:00.768 align:middle line:90% How many of them? 00:31:00.768 --> 00:31:01.560 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Just one. 00:31:01.560 --> 00:31:02.190 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:31:02.190 --> 00:31:02.640 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Which one? 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:03.428 align:middle line:90% The first one? 00:31:03.428 --> 00:31:04.428 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: The first one. 00:31:04.428 --> 00:31:07.100 align:middle line:90% 00:31:07.100 --> 00:31:11.170 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: I haven't seen it enough times yet, Predator. 00:31:11.170 --> 00:31:13.780 align:middle line:84% But Predator introduces another dimension 00:31:13.780 --> 00:31:16.870 align:middle line:90% that follows up from Alien. 00:31:16.870 --> 00:31:21.090 align:middle line:84% And that is, this was a private expedition. 00:31:21.090 --> 00:31:24.660 align:middle line:84% People out on a hunting trip from another planet. 00:31:24.660 --> 00:31:26.230 align:middle line:90% But it's not government. 00:31:26.230 --> 00:31:28.020 align:middle line:90% It's not business. 00:31:28.020 --> 00:31:29.270 align:middle line:90% They're out on a hunting trip. 00:31:29.270 --> 00:31:34.260 align:middle line:90% 00:31:34.260 --> 00:31:39.470 align:middle line:84% And so, who controls their potentials 00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:44.040 align:middle line:84% for unleashing lethality on the rest of us just by merely 00:31:44.040 --> 00:31:45.335 align:middle line:90% exploring space. 00:31:45.335 --> 00:31:47.085 align:middle line:84% Who knows what you're going to bring back. 00:31:47.085 --> 00:31:48.362 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:31:48.362 --> 00:31:50.807 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, now we have those questions in America, 00:31:50.807 --> 00:31:56.274 align:middle line:84% because there are private space exploration companies. 00:31:56.274 --> 00:31:59.260 align:middle line:84% There are several entrepreneurs who are-- 00:31:59.260 --> 00:32:00.850 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: What are they-- 00:32:00.850 --> 00:32:01.750 align:middle line:90% a space trip? 00:32:01.750 --> 00:32:03.163 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Mm-hmm. 00:32:03.163 --> 00:32:04.763 align:middle line:90% Now it's sub-orbital. 00:32:04.763 --> 00:32:05.430 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: OK. 00:32:05.430 --> 00:32:06.876 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: You go and-- 00:32:06.876 --> 00:32:09.768 align:middle line:84% but there are several companies that are working on 00:32:09.768 --> 00:32:10.732 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE]. 00:32:10.732 --> 00:32:13.624 align:middle line:90% 00:32:13.624 --> 00:32:15.070 align:middle line:90% You pay for it. 00:32:15.070 --> 00:32:16.390 align:middle line:90% That's-- 00:32:16.390 --> 00:32:17.640 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: How soon are we-- 00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:21.487 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Their safety standards are of question [INAUDIBLE].. 00:32:21.487 --> 00:32:21.987 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:32:21.987 --> 00:32:23.920 align:middle line:90% Don't have to-- 00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:26.200 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Have they started-- 00:32:26.200 --> 00:32:30.211 align:middle line:84% have they had any tours yet, or are they-- 00:32:30.211 --> 00:32:31.530 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I should know this. 00:32:31.530 --> 00:32:35.480 align:middle line:90% Has anyone gone sub-orbital? 00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:38.900 align:middle line:84% I don't think anything has gone up yet. 00:32:38.900 --> 00:32:41.040 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: But it's microgravity though, 00:32:41.040 --> 00:32:42.020 align:middle line:90% is that true? 00:32:42.020 --> 00:32:42.800 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Mm-hmm. 00:32:42.800 --> 00:32:44.770 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: All right. 00:32:44.770 --> 00:32:47.740 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And then there's microgravity flights 00:32:47.740 --> 00:32:52.482 align:middle line:84% on planes that fly [INAUDIBLE] started too. 00:32:52.482 --> 00:32:55.320 align:middle line:90% 00:32:55.320 --> 00:32:58.330 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: There was a company I know about. 00:32:58.330 --> 00:33:01.020 align:middle line:84% And I only know it-- let's put it this way. 00:33:01.020 --> 00:33:06.878 align:middle line:84% I know about it from I guess, I wouldn't call it gossip. 00:33:06.878 --> 00:33:08.420 align:middle line:84% It was common knowledge, let's put it 00:33:08.420 --> 00:33:14.630 align:middle line:84% that way, among NASA employees where this company presumably 00:33:14.630 --> 00:33:20.905 align:middle line:84% had gotten licensed to bury you in space. 00:33:20.905 --> 00:33:22.280 align:middle line:84% And if you wanted to be cremated, 00:33:22.280 --> 00:33:23.960 align:middle line:90% they put your ashes in orbit. 00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:25.400 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] They claim. 00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:27.545 align:middle line:84% I don't know if they're doing it. 00:33:27.545 --> 00:33:31.490 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] But yeah. 00:33:31.490 --> 00:33:35.000 align:middle line:90% 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.500 align:middle line:90% So but that was-- 00:33:36.500 --> 00:33:38.510 align:middle line:90% I'll call it common knowledge. 00:33:38.510 --> 00:33:41.990 align:middle line:84% I call it common knowledge because everybody said so. 00:33:41.990 --> 00:33:43.220 align:middle line:90% I mean, this wasn't-- 00:33:43.220 --> 00:33:45.380 align:middle line:84% I mean, you'd get up to a presentation given 00:33:45.380 --> 00:33:47.688 align:middle line:84% by the NASA assistant director, they'd mention it. 00:33:47.688 --> 00:33:48.480 align:middle line:90% That kind of stuff. 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:50.030 align:middle line:84% But I never saw actually the proof. 00:33:50.030 --> 00:33:58.090 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:33:58.090 --> 00:33:58.600 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:33:58.600 --> 00:34:02.080 align:middle line:84% Let's go back a second to what [? Widnall ?] said and what 00:34:02.080 --> 00:34:03.010 align:middle line:90% [? Levison ?] said. 00:34:03.010 --> 00:34:06.230 align:middle line:84% And that is especially with these astronauts. 00:34:06.230 --> 00:34:10.150 align:middle line:90% 00:34:10.150 --> 00:34:22.090 align:middle line:84% I don't know if what they said applied to [? McAuliffe. ?] I 00:34:22.090 --> 00:34:26.110 align:middle line:84% believe without question what they said about all 00:34:26.110 --> 00:34:29.830 align:middle line:84% of the rest of the astronauts, that if it was left to them, 00:34:29.830 --> 00:34:32.830 align:middle line:84% there would be no safety standards for themselves. 00:34:32.830 --> 00:34:38.627 align:middle line:90% 00:34:38.627 --> 00:34:39.960 align:middle line:90% And I can see the point to that. 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:43.260 align:middle line:84% If I was an astronaut, I would feel pretty much-- 00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:46.960 align:middle line:84% I would be what they call-- what the Marines called gung ho. 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:48.460 align:middle line:90% I'd want to go. 00:34:48.460 --> 00:34:52.500 align:middle line:84% Stop me from going with all of these rules. 00:34:52.500 --> 00:34:55.320 align:middle line:84% But [? McAuliffe ?] brings in a whole new factor because she 00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:59.020 align:middle line:84% was not a military-- was ordered-- 00:34:59.020 --> 00:35:02.460 align:middle line:84% and then she was picked out of a pool 00:35:02.460 --> 00:35:05.134 align:middle line:90% of people of ordinary people. 00:35:05.134 --> 00:35:08.120 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But she did choose to go. 00:35:08.120 --> 00:35:09.380 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: She chose to go. 00:35:09.380 --> 00:35:12.350 align:middle line:84% But she was still not trained to die for this stuff. 00:35:12.350 --> 00:35:16.650 align:middle line:90% 00:35:16.650 --> 00:35:18.608 align:middle line:90% She might have been willing. 00:35:18.608 --> 00:35:20.618 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But she wasn't part of the culture. 00:35:20.618 --> 00:35:21.285 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: No. 00:35:21.285 --> 00:35:23.820 align:middle line:90% 00:35:23.820 --> 00:35:27.390 align:middle line:84% And the whole point of NASA taking her on board 00:35:27.390 --> 00:35:29.430 align:middle line:84% was to sell NASA to the rest of us. 00:35:29.430 --> 00:35:30.160 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:35:30.160 --> 00:35:32.310 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So it would have been 00:35:32.310 --> 00:35:34.440 align:middle line:84% counterproductive to get somebody who was 00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:37.107 align:middle line:90% as gung ho as the rest of them. 00:35:37.107 --> 00:35:38.940 align:middle line:84% Because the rest of us are not that gung ho. 00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:42.090 align:middle line:90% 00:35:42.090 --> 00:35:43.230 align:middle line:90% Let's see. 00:35:43.230 --> 00:35:45.480 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: There's another point about-- 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:46.890 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: We're not going to go on for 2 and 1/2 hours. 00:35:46.890 --> 00:35:47.390 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:35:47.390 --> 00:35:49.298 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: No. 00:35:49.298 --> 00:35:50.840 align:middle line:84% Just one thing I thought was interest 00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:53.890 align:middle line:90% that if the world [INAUDIBLE]. 00:35:53.890 --> 00:35:57.210 align:middle line:84% He did make a point about cultural differences. 00:35:57.210 --> 00:35:58.890 align:middle line:84% And how when he went to Asia, there's 00:35:58.890 --> 00:36:01.500 align:middle line:84% this whole attitude of don't shout, don't challenge. 00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:04.560 align:middle line:84% And part of what he does is he double-checks on what you do. 00:36:04.560 --> 00:36:05.880 align:middle line:90% OK, you said you did that. 00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:07.505 align:middle line:84% Well, you know he'd be right behind you 00:36:07.505 --> 00:36:10.230 align:middle line:84% checking to make sure that we can test this, we can verify. 00:36:10.230 --> 00:36:12.000 align:middle line:84% And in Asia, it's a different culture. 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.240 align:middle line:84% People know how to respect and say, oh, did you do that? 00:36:15.240 --> 00:36:16.340 align:middle line:90% And they take your word. 00:36:16.340 --> 00:36:18.840 align:middle line:84% And it's considered disrespectful to go 00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:21.150 align:middle line:84% back and double-check and say, are you sure you did it? 00:36:21.150 --> 00:36:22.410 align:middle line:84% And again, he just made the point, 00:36:22.410 --> 00:36:23.660 align:middle line:90% it could be an honest mistake. 00:36:23.660 --> 00:36:25.090 align:middle line:90% But it can still be a mistake. 00:36:25.090 --> 00:36:28.657 align:middle line:84% So that was interesting, saying that maybe it 00:36:28.657 --> 00:36:33.530 align:middle line:84% was cultural differences make it different. 00:36:33.530 --> 00:36:34.280 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:36.260 align:middle line:84% Cultural differences, one thing is for sure 00:36:36.260 --> 00:36:39.830 align:middle line:84% that I've experienced myself, and that is I've 00:36:39.830 --> 00:36:43.818 align:middle line:84% been in other cultures where people would defer to my age. 00:36:43.818 --> 00:36:45.110 align:middle line:90% You don't get that around here. 00:36:45.110 --> 00:36:45.610 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:36:45.610 --> 00:36:49.102 align:middle line:90% Well, now they do. 00:36:49.102 --> 00:36:50.870 align:middle line:84% It was about a year ago I noticed 00:36:50.870 --> 00:36:53.510 align:middle line:84% that young ladies would hold the door for me went 00:36:53.510 --> 00:36:54.635 align:middle line:90% I would go into a building. 00:36:54.635 --> 00:37:00.620 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] But now there was a big change in America. 00:37:00.620 --> 00:37:04.745 align:middle line:84% I remember going to a lecture, going to a conference. 00:37:04.745 --> 00:37:06.860 align:middle line:90% I went to this conference. 00:37:06.860 --> 00:37:10.130 align:middle line:84% I went to two conferences where I was pretty much 00:37:10.130 --> 00:37:11.120 align:middle line:90% the only male in there. 00:37:11.120 --> 00:37:14.360 align:middle line:90% 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:15.678 align:middle line:90% One of them was called-- 00:37:15.678 --> 00:37:17.970 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Must not have been an engineering conference. 00:37:17.970 --> 00:37:18.970 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:37:18.970 --> 00:37:21.280 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Actually, it was. 00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:21.912 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:37:21.912 --> 00:37:23.870 align:middle line:84% One of the, yeah, I'll tell you about this one. 00:37:23.870 --> 00:37:27.108 align:middle line:84% It was called breaking the glass ceiling. 00:37:27.108 --> 00:37:27.650 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Oh. 00:37:27.650 --> 00:37:28.660 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:37:28.660 --> 00:37:33.610 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And all of the speakers save one, maybe two, 00:37:33.610 --> 00:37:34.930 align:middle line:90% but definitely-- 00:37:34.930 --> 00:37:39.880 align:middle line:84% were women who had made it in engineering. 00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:42.010 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:37:42.010 --> 00:37:43.930 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And all of the rest of them 00:37:43.930 --> 00:37:46.810 align:middle line:84% were not so much women who were trying to make it 00:37:46.810 --> 00:37:50.200 align:middle line:84% but women who wanted to write about making it. 00:37:50.200 --> 00:37:52.990 align:middle line:84% And a lot-- and it was sponsored by people-- 00:37:52.990 --> 00:37:57.910 align:middle line:84% it was sponsored by what they called the National Engineering 00:37:57.910 --> 00:38:00.670 align:middle line:90% Foundation. 00:38:00.670 --> 00:38:05.860 align:middle line:84% And the proposal was written by women, many of them who 00:38:05.860 --> 00:38:07.690 align:middle line:84% were involved in engineering ethics 00:38:07.690 --> 00:38:12.710 align:middle line:84% and this kind of thing, engineering public policy, STS 00:38:12.710 --> 00:38:13.210 align:middle line:90% people. 00:38:13.210 --> 00:38:15.980 align:middle line:90% 00:38:15.980 --> 00:38:23.680 align:middle line:84% And as a matter of fact, they had this conference 00:38:23.680 --> 00:38:27.190 align:middle line:90% up in Canada at a ski lodge. 00:38:27.190 --> 00:38:30.350 align:middle line:90% But it was in the summer. 00:38:30.350 --> 00:38:33.760 align:middle line:90% And so, I went in to register. 00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:37.300 align:middle line:84% And it was-- they had plenty of money. 00:38:37.300 --> 00:38:42.160 align:middle line:84% They were putting everybody up in condos. 00:38:42.160 --> 00:38:43.760 align:middle line:84% And it was only two people to a condo. 00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:45.635 align:middle line:84% And you're talking about two floors of condo. 00:38:45.635 --> 00:38:47.313 align:middle line:90% Really nice places. 00:38:47.313 --> 00:38:48.230 align:middle line:90% Let's put it this way. 00:38:48.230 --> 00:38:51.340 align:middle line:90% Much better than the Hyatt. 00:38:51.340 --> 00:38:55.930 align:middle line:90% And they put me in this condo. 00:38:55.930 --> 00:38:59.780 align:middle line:84% And they said, you'll have one housemate. 00:38:59.780 --> 00:39:01.420 align:middle line:90% I said fine. 00:39:01.420 --> 00:39:03.640 align:middle line:84% I said, oh, by the way, do you who my housemate is? 00:39:03.640 --> 00:39:05.110 align:middle line:90% They said, we'll look it up. 00:39:05.110 --> 00:39:08.207 align:middle line:84% And they looked it up and they said, oh, yes, I 00:39:08.207 --> 00:39:10.540 align:middle line:84% don't know what her name was, Sheila McGee or something. 00:39:10.540 --> 00:39:11.457 align:middle line:90% I said, wait a minute. 00:39:11.457 --> 00:39:16.150 align:middle line:84% I said, [LAUGHS] I can't go in there with this lady? 00:39:16.150 --> 00:39:18.797 align:middle line:84% And the people who were at the registration desk 00:39:18.797 --> 00:39:21.130 align:middle line:84% stood up, put their hands on their hips said, how do you 00:39:21.130 --> 00:39:22.145 align:middle line:90% get to be so special? 00:39:22.145 --> 00:39:25.906 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:39:25.906 --> 00:39:29.980 align:middle line:90% So, they went on up there. 00:39:29.980 --> 00:39:34.150 align:middle line:84% So I stayed on the phone with my wife. 00:39:34.150 --> 00:39:34.900 align:middle line:90% Anyway. 00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:39.513 align:middle line:84% But at that conference-- what'd I bring that up for. 00:39:39.513 --> 00:39:41.920 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Reference to age, I think? 00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:42.730 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:39:42.730 --> 00:39:45.700 align:middle line:84% The speaker got up, the main speaker 00:39:45.700 --> 00:39:49.990 align:middle line:90% got up and made a comment that-- 00:39:49.990 --> 00:39:54.400 align:middle line:84% the last session, the last presentation she had made 00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:56.110 align:middle line:90% was at a university. 00:39:56.110 --> 00:39:59.470 align:middle line:84% And she had to go through these revolving doors. 00:39:59.470 --> 00:40:03.970 align:middle line:84% And she said, only three students tried to run her down. 00:40:03.970 --> 00:40:08.740 align:middle line:90% And they hit a turnstile. 00:40:08.740 --> 00:40:12.070 align:middle line:90% Well, the revolving door. 00:40:12.070 --> 00:40:12.740 align:middle line:90% People laughed. 00:40:12.740 --> 00:40:15.610 align:middle line:84% But they weren't-- but in other cultures, 00:40:15.610 --> 00:40:19.450 align:middle line:84% there is still a respect for age. 00:40:19.450 --> 00:40:24.745 align:middle line:84% And in some other cultures there is a respect for-- 00:40:24.745 --> 00:40:28.260 align:middle line:90% 00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:31.630 align:middle line:90% well, let me put it this way. 00:40:31.630 --> 00:40:36.810 align:middle line:84% There is a respect for position of authority. 00:40:36.810 --> 00:40:40.170 align:middle line:84% But not because you have power, it's 00:40:40.170 --> 00:40:43.460 align:middle line:84% because you have the responsibility 00:40:43.460 --> 00:40:45.140 align:middle line:90% and people expect that. 00:40:45.140 --> 00:40:46.640 align:middle line:84% And they don't like to overrule it. 00:40:46.640 --> 00:40:49.400 align:middle line:84% And I think that's what he discovered. 00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:50.030 align:middle line:90% Where was that? 00:40:50.030 --> 00:40:54.440 align:middle line:90% In Guam? 00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:55.790 align:middle line:90% It was in Southeast Asia. 00:40:55.790 --> 00:41:00.020 align:middle line:84% And he was saying that people in different levels of authority 00:41:00.020 --> 00:41:03.590 align:middle line:84% would not challenge a person at a higher level of authority. 00:41:03.590 --> 00:41:05.750 align:middle line:84% But he gave the impression to me that 00:41:05.750 --> 00:41:10.760 align:middle line:84% corresponded with my experience, that it wasn't fear so much. 00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:13.910 align:middle line:84% It wasn't power-- an issue of power differential. 00:41:13.910 --> 00:41:17.660 align:middle line:84% It was expected if you have all of this responsibility, 00:41:17.660 --> 00:41:22.190 align:middle line:84% then I should respect you for that responsibility. 00:41:22.190 --> 00:41:26.575 align:middle line:84% So whereas his job was really not to respect anybody. 00:41:26.575 --> 00:41:29.590 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] His job was to go in there 00:41:29.590 --> 00:41:32.950 align:middle line:84% and check everything, behind everybody, and find people 00:41:32.950 --> 00:41:43.610 align:middle line:84% at fault. So it was different-- difficult. 00:41:43.610 --> 00:41:47.570 align:middle line:84% He used-- I just want to make two other comments. 00:41:47.570 --> 00:41:48.950 align:middle line:90% He used the word arrogance. 00:41:48.950 --> 00:41:55.580 align:middle line:90% 00:41:55.580 --> 00:41:59.900 align:middle line:84% My experience in these matters is that arrogance is, first 00:41:59.900 --> 00:42:01.020 align:middle line:90% of all, a very good word. 00:42:01.020 --> 00:42:02.990 align:middle line:84% But I think it's best understood as pride. 00:42:02.990 --> 00:42:07.010 align:middle line:84% Too much pride at being associated 00:42:07.010 --> 00:42:11.340 align:middle line:84% with the organization of the people that you're with. 00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:16.592 align:middle line:84% And it turns out to be arrogance also. 00:42:16.592 --> 00:42:18.050 align:middle line:84% But there's a collective arrogance. 00:42:18.050 --> 00:42:24.040 align:middle line:84% It's not an individual arrogance. 00:42:24.040 --> 00:42:30.270 align:middle line:84% And proof, if you attack their organization, 00:42:30.270 --> 00:42:31.020 align:middle line:90% they get offended. 00:42:31.020 --> 00:42:38.950 align:middle line:90% 00:42:38.950 --> 00:42:41.560 align:middle line:84% Any questions about what military people 00:42:41.560 --> 00:42:43.630 align:middle line:84% call-- since I was in the military-- 00:42:43.630 --> 00:42:46.120 align:middle line:84% any questions about what people call 00:42:46.120 --> 00:42:47.680 align:middle line:84% lines of authority accountability 00:42:47.680 --> 00:42:51.370 align:middle line:90% and responsibility? 00:42:51.370 --> 00:42:55.868 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think I understand [INAUDIBLE] 00:42:55.868 --> 00:42:57.660 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: I'll give you one example that 00:42:57.660 --> 00:42:58.827 align:middle line:90% doesn't have anything to do. 00:42:58.827 --> 00:43:01.110 align:middle line:84% Well, it's not the military but what I brought-- 00:43:01.110 --> 00:43:03.770 align:middle line:84% when I was a Department Chair, I had an Assistant Department 00:43:03.770 --> 00:43:05.220 align:middle line:90% Chair. 00:43:05.220 --> 00:43:08.550 align:middle line:84% When I was away on travel, my Assistant Department Chair-- 00:43:08.550 --> 00:43:13.152 align:middle line:90% 00:43:13.152 --> 00:43:14.610 align:middle line:84% there was a faculty member that had 00:43:14.610 --> 00:43:17.340 align:middle line:84% a heart attack or something, couldn't show up for class. 00:43:17.340 --> 00:43:20.082 align:middle line:90% I was away for a week. 00:43:20.082 --> 00:43:22.290 align:middle line:84% Students are going to class and there's nobody there. 00:43:22.290 --> 00:43:25.200 align:middle line:84% My Assistant Chair called up a person 00:43:25.200 --> 00:43:29.370 align:middle line:84% that he knew and hired the person to teach the class. 00:43:29.370 --> 00:43:35.550 align:middle line:90% When I got back, I had-- 00:43:35.550 --> 00:43:36.840 align:middle line:90% I knew this individual. 00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:42.120 align:middle line:84% And my attitude was that I had an experience with him 00:43:42.120 --> 00:43:50.410 align:middle line:84% that was potentially illegal if we had done it together. 00:43:50.410 --> 00:43:52.450 align:middle line:90% I told him I wouldn't do it. 00:43:52.450 --> 00:43:54.720 align:middle line:84% And I didn't want this kind of person standing 00:43:54.720 --> 00:43:56.910 align:middle line:84% in front of the students with power. 00:43:56.910 --> 00:43:57.570 align:middle line:90% So I fired him. 00:43:57.570 --> 00:44:00.840 align:middle line:90% 00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:04.830 align:middle line:84% And he sued for defamation of character. 00:44:04.830 --> 00:44:07.890 align:middle line:84% And the University decided that it was in the University's 00:44:07.890 --> 00:44:10.510 align:middle line:90% interest to just settle. 00:44:10.510 --> 00:44:14.390 align:middle line:90% 00:44:14.390 --> 00:44:17.870 align:middle line:84% So and they took it out of my budget. 00:44:17.870 --> 00:44:25.640 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] So then the provost, wasn't called provost at Howard 00:44:25.640 --> 00:44:28.250 align:middle line:84% at the time, but same thing, provost, vice president 00:44:28.250 --> 00:44:30.470 align:middle line:84% for academic affairs called me in 00:44:30.470 --> 00:44:35.160 align:middle line:84% and said, how can we deal with this issue in the future? 00:44:35.160 --> 00:44:36.590 align:middle line:84% And I said, well, in the military, 00:44:36.590 --> 00:44:39.400 align:middle line:84% we have something called authority, accountability, 00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:41.630 align:middle line:90% and responsibility. 00:44:41.630 --> 00:44:47.870 align:middle line:84% And I said, what we should do is precisely what you all 00:44:47.870 --> 00:44:48.390 align:middle line:90% have done. 00:44:48.390 --> 00:44:50.120 align:middle line:90% But you need to make a policy. 00:44:50.120 --> 00:44:52.220 align:middle line:84% And that is that as Department Chair, 00:44:52.220 --> 00:44:54.800 align:middle line:84% I was responsible for what happened. 00:44:54.800 --> 00:45:00.470 align:middle line:84% That means I am subject to punishment for what happens. 00:45:00.470 --> 00:45:04.610 align:middle line:84% But my Department Assistant Chair was only accountable. 00:45:04.610 --> 00:45:08.060 align:middle line:84% That means he had to produce all of the evidence. 00:45:08.060 --> 00:45:12.800 align:middle line:84% But he did not-- but if he had done the wrong thing even, 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:15.522 align:middle line:84% he does not go to jail, I'm the one who goes to jail. 00:45:15.522 --> 00:45:17.802 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So you're responsible, he's accountable. 00:45:17.802 --> 00:45:21.680 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So responsibility means subject to punishment 00:45:21.680 --> 00:45:22.720 align:middle line:90% for the action. 00:45:22.720 --> 00:45:25.100 align:middle line:90% Accountable means-- 00:45:25.100 --> 00:45:28.310 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Ability to explain it with facts. 00:45:28.310 --> 00:45:30.590 align:middle line:84% Explain the situation and to be able to support 00:45:30.590 --> 00:45:31.550 align:middle line:90% your explanation. 00:45:31.550 --> 00:45:41.500 align:middle line:90% 00:45:41.500 --> 00:45:46.600 align:middle line:84% So if you give somebody responsibility, then 00:45:46.600 --> 00:45:48.460 align:middle line:84% you also have to give them the power 00:45:48.460 --> 00:45:50.320 align:middle line:84% to exercise their responsibility, 00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:52.090 align:middle line:90% and that's authority. 00:45:52.090 --> 00:45:55.330 align:middle line:84% So the person with responsibility has authority. 00:45:55.330 --> 00:45:58.930 align:middle line:84% The person with responsibility can delegate authority 00:45:58.930 --> 00:46:06.550 align:middle line:84% to another person but cannot delegate responsibility. 00:46:06.550 --> 00:46:10.040 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And in the Navy, accountability directly 00:46:10.040 --> 00:46:12.120 align:middle line:90% corresponds to responsibility. 00:46:12.120 --> 00:46:14.405 align:middle line:84% So if you're accountable you'd be responsible for it? 00:46:14.405 --> 00:46:15.320 align:middle line:90% I think it was-- 00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:18.080 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: No, you can have a subordinate officer, 00:46:18.080 --> 00:46:20.840 align:middle line:90% a person be accountable. 00:46:20.840 --> 00:46:22.610 align:middle line:90% Many times those are-- 00:46:22.610 --> 00:46:23.990 align:middle line:90% in the Army, they are sergeants. 00:46:23.990 --> 00:46:27.170 align:middle line:84% The sergeant knows more about what's going on in the unit 00:46:27.170 --> 00:46:29.840 align:middle line:90% than the captain does. 00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:33.605 align:middle line:84% So the sergeant is supposed to produce all of the facts. 00:46:33.605 --> 00:46:35.570 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So for SUBSAFE, that was the point 00:46:35.570 --> 00:46:36.945 align:middle line:84% that she was making, that SUBSAFE 00:46:36.945 --> 00:46:39.527 align:middle line:84% is unique in that accountability does go right 00:46:39.527 --> 00:46:40.610 align:middle line:90% along with responsibility. 00:46:40.610 --> 00:46:41.780 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Oh, I see what you're saying. 00:46:41.780 --> 00:46:42.020 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:46:42.020 --> 00:46:43.790 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think that's the point she tried to make. 00:46:43.790 --> 00:46:44.885 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And she said it was unique. 00:46:44.885 --> 00:46:45.510 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:46:45.510 --> 00:46:46.530 align:middle line:90% It was unique. 00:46:46.530 --> 00:46:49.310 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Right, that a person with the authority 00:46:49.310 --> 00:46:51.680 align:middle line:84% and responsibility has accountability also. 00:46:51.680 --> 00:46:56.817 align:middle line:84% That's a-- I doubt if that will work a whole lot 00:46:56.817 --> 00:46:57.650 align:middle line:90% of different places. 00:46:57.650 --> 00:46:59.130 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Places, yeah. 00:46:59.130 --> 00:47:02.070 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Because it's just too big. 00:47:02.070 --> 00:47:05.190 align:middle line:90% It's just too big. 00:47:05.190 --> 00:47:07.490 align:middle line:84% So when I was a company commander, 00:47:07.490 --> 00:47:18.530 align:middle line:84% I had another officer who was a deputy company commander. 00:47:18.530 --> 00:47:20.600 align:middle line:90% But I had a bunch of sergeants. 00:47:20.600 --> 00:47:23.900 align:middle line:84% And so, when stuff-- when I had to ask a question about stuff, 00:47:23.900 --> 00:47:25.470 align:middle line:90% I brought in these sergeants. 00:47:25.470 --> 00:47:27.500 align:middle line:90% Told them to lay down the facts. 00:47:27.500 --> 00:47:30.170 align:middle line:84% Then once they laid them down, I excused them. 00:47:30.170 --> 00:47:33.110 align:middle line:84% The officers would talk about it. 00:47:33.110 --> 00:47:37.702 align:middle line:84% There's a big moral issue about in Vietnam called-- 00:47:37.702 --> 00:47:38.910 align:middle line:90% I think I covered it, My Lai. 00:47:38.910 --> 00:47:41.900 align:middle line:90% 00:47:41.900 --> 00:47:46.430 align:middle line:84% And I compared it to the Nuremberg principle. 00:47:46.430 --> 00:47:50.330 align:middle line:84% And the starting point of the issue for the military 00:47:50.330 --> 00:47:53.210 align:middle line:90% was that this was an officer. 00:47:53.210 --> 00:47:56.180 align:middle line:84% And that the officer was responsible 00:47:56.180 --> 00:47:57.890 align:middle line:84% even though his men did the shooting. 00:47:57.890 --> 00:48:02.637 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] The men were not responsible. 00:48:02.637 --> 00:48:03.720 align:middle line:90% But they were accountable. 00:48:03.720 --> 00:48:05.580 align:middle line:84% They had to come back and say what they did. 00:48:05.580 --> 00:48:09.430 align:middle line:90% 00:48:09.430 --> 00:48:11.820 align:middle line:84% And as a term of art that I still understand 00:48:11.820 --> 00:48:19.500 align:middle line:84% is the case in the Army, check with some friends, 00:48:19.500 --> 00:48:24.300 align:middle line:84% but my last account was that even 00:48:24.300 --> 00:48:28.230 align:middle line:84% if your soldiers are half female, 00:48:28.230 --> 00:48:30.900 align:middle line:90% they're still called the men. 00:48:30.900 --> 00:48:35.880 align:middle line:84% And even if the commander is a female, you say, yes, sir. 00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:40.020 align:middle line:84% They still haven't gotten rid of that. 00:48:40.020 --> 00:48:43.973 align:middle line:84% I think-- any other issues on this? 00:48:43.973 --> 00:48:45.640 align:middle line:84% Well, thank you very much, Miss Ratliff. 00:48:45.640 --> 00:48:48.642 align:middle line:84% If you want to have the last word? 00:48:48.642 --> 00:48:50.600 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I was just going to try to segue over 00:48:50.600 --> 00:48:51.630 align:middle line:90% into codes of ethics. 00:48:51.630 --> 00:48:53.280 align:middle line:90% Are we going back to that now? 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:55.830 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Oh, actually I had-- 00:48:55.830 --> 00:48:59.050 align:middle line:90% I wanted to tell this story. 00:48:59.050 --> 00:49:01.680 align:middle line:84% And there was something else I wanted to do. 00:49:01.680 --> 00:49:03.055 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: The movie that you saw? 00:49:03.055 --> 00:49:03.888 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Pardon? 00:49:03.888 --> 00:49:04.650 align:middle line:90% This movie I saw. 00:49:04.650 --> 00:49:05.670 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah, OK, so-- 00:49:05.670 --> 00:49:06.030 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Wait a minute. 00:49:06.030 --> 00:49:07.810 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I'll save the codes of ethics if you have-- 00:49:07.810 --> 00:49:09.482 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, no, [INAUDIBLE].. 00:49:09.482 --> 00:49:12.350 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, I just thought that what was interesting is-- 00:49:12.350 --> 00:49:13.267 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Go ahead. 00:49:13.267 --> 00:49:15.300 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: --there's such a rigidity. 00:49:15.300 --> 00:49:19.150 align:middle line:84% I just really saw that they definitely have their code, 00:49:19.150 --> 00:49:22.510 align:middle line:84% and they have principles that they adhere to so strictly. 00:49:22.510 --> 00:49:26.960 align:middle line:84% And so, and it just tipped the ice what 00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:28.776 align:middle line:84% we were talking about with codes of ethics. 00:49:28.776 --> 00:49:34.235 align:middle line:84% And I just think to myself, is this good, morally allows 00:49:34.235 --> 00:49:35.354 align:middle line:90% for [INAUDIBLE]. 00:49:35.354 --> 00:49:36.150 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:49:36.150 --> 00:49:36.900 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:39.480 align:middle line:90% 00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:44.680 align:middle line:84% One thing that we didn't discuss in there, 00:49:44.680 --> 00:49:49.950 align:middle line:84% and that was how does all of this discussion of safety 00:49:49.950 --> 00:49:54.510 align:middle line:90% work out in a combat situation? 00:49:54.510 --> 00:49:58.320 align:middle line:84% When clear the mission is now more important than the ship 00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.080 align:middle line:90% and crew. 00:50:01.080 --> 00:50:06.210 align:middle line:84% And all of the cases he discussed 00:50:06.210 --> 00:50:11.660 align:middle line:90% were peacetime failures. 00:50:11.660 --> 00:50:13.160 align:middle line:90% What happens in wartime? 00:50:13.160 --> 00:50:14.753 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:50:14.753 --> 00:50:16.670 align:middle line:84% Because I would think that some of these rules 00:50:16.670 --> 00:50:20.250 align:middle line:84% would just get thrown to the side if they are in a-- 00:50:20.250 --> 00:50:24.420 align:middle line:84% if you're in a combat situation and they're pressed for time, 00:50:24.420 --> 00:50:27.230 align:middle line:84% I'm thinking to myself, how could they possibly do all 00:50:27.230 --> 00:50:28.440 align:middle line:90% these things that we say now. 00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:28.860 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:29.830 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And there's nothing built 00:50:29.830 --> 00:50:31.788 align:middle line:84% into the system that would allow you to deviate 00:50:31.788 --> 00:50:33.010 align:middle line:90% one way or another from it. 00:50:33.010 --> 00:50:35.640 align:middle line:90% So that [INAUDIBLE]. 00:50:35.640 --> 00:50:37.320 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, frankly, I think 00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:38.890 align:middle line:84% the military makes it very clear, 00:50:38.890 --> 00:50:42.802 align:middle line:84% at least to their officers, the mission comes first. 00:50:42.802 --> 00:50:44.260 align:middle line:84% Now, excuse me, I'll tell you where 00:50:44.260 --> 00:50:49.510 align:middle line:84% there's an issue that is sort of in the gray area. 00:50:49.510 --> 00:50:55.420 align:middle line:84% And that's when you're at peace but in a Cold War. 00:50:55.420 --> 00:51:02.200 align:middle line:84% Now, this situation was brought up 00:51:02.200 --> 00:51:04.717 align:middle line:84% in another film, a real situation. 00:51:04.717 --> 00:51:06.550 align:middle line:84% I'm trying to think of the name of the film. 00:51:06.550 --> 00:51:12.130 align:middle line:84% But it had to do with, recently, with this Russian submarine 00:51:12.130 --> 00:51:13.480 align:middle line:90% that went down. 00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:16.780 align:middle line:84% Even the Americans went over to try to save them. 00:51:16.780 --> 00:51:19.900 align:middle line:90% And the crew died in there. 00:51:19.900 --> 00:51:24.550 align:middle line:84% And there was this issue that they really 00:51:24.550 --> 00:51:28.690 align:middle line:84% didn't want the Americans to see their technology. 00:51:28.690 --> 00:51:31.420 align:middle line:84% And a movie was made out of that, part fact, and part 00:51:31.420 --> 00:51:39.840 align:middle line:84% fiction, but got over the moral question I think very well. 00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:41.590 align:middle line:84% And I'm trying to think of the name of it. 00:51:41.590 --> 00:51:42.640 align:middle line:90% But I'll tell you who-- 00:51:42.640 --> 00:51:45.460 align:middle line:90% Harrison Ford starred in it. 00:51:45.460 --> 00:51:47.613 align:middle line:90% And he starred as a-- 00:51:47.613 --> 00:51:49.780 align:middle line:84% I'm not talking-- don't get it mixed up with the one 00:51:49.780 --> 00:51:54.370 align:middle line:90% that Sean Connery starred in. 00:51:54.370 --> 00:51:58.420 align:middle line:84% But it's the one that Harrison Ford starred in. 00:51:58.420 --> 00:52:01.600 align:middle line:84% He played the part of a Russian submarine commander. 00:52:01.600 --> 00:52:08.500 align:middle line:90% 00:52:08.500 --> 00:52:10.590 align:middle line:84% The one that Connery played in was-- 00:52:10.590 --> 00:52:14.382 align:middle line:90% 00:52:14.382 --> 00:52:17.232 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: One of them is [INAUDIBLE].. 00:52:17.232 --> 00:52:19.190 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But I don't think that's the one he's 00:52:19.190 --> 00:52:19.550 align:middle line:90% talking about. 00:52:19.550 --> 00:52:20.030 align:middle line:84% I know the one you're talking about. 00:52:20.030 --> 00:52:20.300 align:middle line:90% I saw it. 00:52:20.300 --> 00:52:20.570 align:middle line:90% I just saw it. 00:52:20.570 --> 00:52:21.075 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: You know, yeah. 00:52:21.075 --> 00:52:22.490 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:52:22.490 --> 00:52:23.390 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:52:23.390 --> 00:52:27.470 align:middle line:84% It was not as popular as the one that Connery played in. 00:52:27.470 --> 00:52:36.500 align:middle line:84% Connery-- his one was where the Russians had a piece 00:52:36.500 --> 00:52:41.720 align:middle line:84% of technology on this nuclear sub that was so effective that 00:52:41.720 --> 00:52:44.210 align:middle line:90% it could shift the power-- 00:52:44.210 --> 00:52:47.750 align:middle line:84% military power, one way or another in the whole world. 00:52:47.750 --> 00:52:50.600 align:middle line:84% And his basic idea was that no one country 00:52:50.600 --> 00:52:54.050 align:middle line:90% should have that technology. 00:52:54.050 --> 00:52:55.730 align:middle line:84% Now, there's another story that I 00:52:55.730 --> 00:52:57.998 align:middle line:84% don't know if anybody ever made a movie of, 00:52:57.998 --> 00:53:00.290 align:middle line:84% and it doesn't need a movie, because all you have to do 00:53:00.290 --> 00:53:03.080 align:middle line:84% is just deal with the facts per se. 00:53:03.080 --> 00:53:10.070 align:middle line:84% And that is a man by the name of Niels Bohr, B-O-H-R, 00:53:10.070 --> 00:53:11.150 align:middle line:90% Bohr's Adam? 00:53:11.150 --> 00:53:14.000 align:middle line:90% Same name. 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:17.510 align:middle line:84% When the United States was working on the Manhattan 00:53:17.510 --> 00:53:20.300 align:middle line:84% Project, Niels Bohr was a part of it. 00:53:20.300 --> 00:53:23.930 align:middle line:84% Niels Bohr really irritated a whole lot of people, 00:53:23.930 --> 00:53:26.360 align:middle line:84% because he thought that the United States nor any one 00:53:26.360 --> 00:53:28.550 align:middle line:90% country should have the bomb. 00:53:28.550 --> 00:53:30.770 align:middle line:84% And he was making a lot of speeches 00:53:30.770 --> 00:53:33.980 align:middle line:84% saying that the technology ought to be made public. 00:53:33.980 --> 00:53:36.470 align:middle line:84% And he had already had the Nobel Prize. 00:53:36.470 --> 00:53:40.160 align:middle line:84% So it wasn't an easy matter just to shut him up. 00:53:40.160 --> 00:53:44.120 align:middle line:84% But that issue, is there something 00:53:44.120 --> 00:53:50.480 align:middle line:84% that's so powerfully destructive that no one nation should 00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:53.480 align:middle line:84% have custody of it or the knowledge about it. 00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:56.270 align:middle line:90% 00:53:56.270 --> 00:53:58.565 align:middle line:84% It is worthy of discussion in this class. 00:53:58.565 --> 00:54:02.640 align:middle line:90% 00:54:02.640 --> 00:54:05.420 align:middle line:84% So and if you want to deal with it-- start 00:54:05.420 --> 00:54:11.000 align:middle line:84% with either with the fiction, either of these movies, 00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:16.490 align:middle line:84% or start with Niels Bohr and just deal with the facts. 00:54:16.490 --> 00:54:23.030 align:middle line:84% But they all bring up the same issue. 00:54:23.030 --> 00:54:25.040 align:middle line:84% So if you do see a movie like that, 00:54:25.040 --> 00:54:28.640 align:middle line:84% and you've got a five-minute presentation, 00:54:28.640 --> 00:54:32.720 align:middle line:84% five-minute, 10-minute Q&A, time for the class. 00:54:32.720 --> 00:54:36.690 align:middle line:90% 00:54:36.690 --> 00:54:37.635 align:middle line:90% Codes of ethics. 00:54:37.635 --> 00:54:41.580 align:middle line:90% 00:54:41.580 --> 00:54:44.850 align:middle line:84% Now, then I'll make a mention that-- then I 00:54:44.850 --> 00:54:47.640 align:middle line:90% want to talk about this movie. 00:54:47.640 --> 00:54:51.210 align:middle line:84% The last thing I think I'm ready to say about-- actually, let's 00:54:51.210 --> 00:54:54.450 align:middle line:84% count codes of ethics now as a continuing discussion 00:54:54.450 --> 00:54:56.910 align:middle line:84% not as a module that we're going to be through with. 00:54:56.910 --> 00:55:03.500 align:middle line:90% 00:55:03.500 --> 00:55:11.461 align:middle line:84% From the standpoint of this class, 00:55:11.461 --> 00:55:15.230 align:middle line:90% let's see, we got visitors? 00:55:15.230 --> 00:55:18.440 align:middle line:84% We still have five, 10, 15, 20 minutes more. 00:55:18.440 --> 00:55:21.915 align:middle line:90% 00:55:21.915 --> 00:55:23.290 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Put a sign on the door. 00:55:23.290 --> 00:55:26.690 align:middle line:90% 00:55:26.690 --> 00:55:28.670 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: You're going to have to-- 00:55:28.670 --> 00:55:32.450 align:middle line:84% if you think that the term, codes-- 00:55:32.450 --> 00:55:39.860 align:middle line:84% that these codes of ethics are actually ethical rules, 00:55:39.860 --> 00:55:47.940 align:middle line:84% then my charge to you is to be able to justify that 00:55:47.940 --> 00:55:51.440 align:middle line:84% and to justify that on a rule by rule basis. 00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:56.850 align:middle line:84% Because a lot of these codes are not ethical codes. 00:55:56.850 --> 00:55:59.430 align:middle line:84% I think they are best called codes 00:55:59.430 --> 00:56:04.650 align:middle line:84% of practice or professional practice, right, or guidelines. 00:56:04.650 --> 00:56:08.970 align:middle line:84% So one of them is actually called guidelines. 00:56:08.970 --> 00:56:12.216 align:middle line:84% They might even be statements of-- 00:56:12.216 --> 00:56:13.270 align:middle line:90% might be ideals. 00:56:13.270 --> 00:56:16.927 align:middle line:90% 00:56:16.927 --> 00:56:19.560 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Some of them are even contract-- 00:56:19.560 --> 00:56:22.710 align:middle line:84% it sounds like they're treated like contracts. 00:56:22.710 --> 00:56:24.780 align:middle line:84% If you're a member of this organization, 00:56:24.780 --> 00:56:26.480 align:middle line:90% this is what you will do. 00:56:26.480 --> 00:56:29.568 align:middle line:90% 00:56:29.568 --> 00:56:30.485 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: I think-- 00:56:30.485 --> 00:56:30.960 align:middle line:90% go ahead. 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:32.586 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It's OK not to think of these as ethical rules. 00:56:32.586 --> 00:56:35.082 align:middle line:84% I think that's why the topic is bothering me, because I 00:56:35.082 --> 00:56:36.290 align:middle line:90% was trying to think of them-- 00:56:36.290 --> 00:56:36.998 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:56:36.998 --> 00:56:39.540 align:middle line:90% 00:56:39.540 --> 00:56:45.640 align:middle line:84% So I think that the term code of ethics is a misnomer. 00:56:45.640 --> 00:56:47.220 align:middle line:90% But it is a term of art. 00:56:47.220 --> 00:56:50.470 align:middle line:84% So you have to deal with that fact. 00:56:50.470 --> 00:56:57.060 align:middle line:84% It is any good encyclopedia would have that term in it. 00:56:57.060 --> 00:56:58.980 align:middle line:90% But as a scholar, you have to-- 00:56:58.980 --> 00:57:01.230 align:middle line:84% like I said, if you want to differ with what I said, 00:57:01.230 --> 00:57:04.980 align:middle line:84% then you're going to have to find a justification for it. 00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:07.410 align:middle line:84% But you just cannot take it as face value. 00:57:07.410 --> 00:57:08.340 align:middle line:90% That's my main point. 00:57:08.340 --> 00:57:11.110 align:middle line:84% You just cannot take that term as being revealing at face 00:57:11.110 --> 00:57:11.610 align:middle line:90% value. 00:57:11.610 --> 00:57:16.080 align:middle line:90% 00:57:16.080 --> 00:57:20.550 align:middle line:84% I think also from-- and I think they have legal significance. 00:57:20.550 --> 00:57:23.560 align:middle line:90% 00:57:23.560 --> 00:57:26.350 align:middle line:84% But in a code-- in an ethics class, 00:57:26.350 --> 00:57:29.290 align:middle line:84% we need to think about them, I think, 00:57:29.290 --> 00:57:34.270 align:middle line:84% as ideals and/or guidelines for professional practice. 00:57:34.270 --> 00:57:41.750 align:middle line:90% 00:57:41.750 --> 00:57:43.400 align:middle line:90% I want to talk about this film. 00:57:43.400 --> 00:57:44.483 align:middle line:90% Can I go to that now? 00:57:44.483 --> 00:57:45.108 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:57:45.108 --> 00:57:56.900 align:middle line:90% 00:57:56.900 --> 00:57:59.615 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And I give you the bad news first. 00:57:59.615 --> 00:58:02.147 align:middle line:90% 00:58:02.147 --> 00:58:03.730 align:middle line:84% I can't remember the name of the film. 00:58:03.730 --> 00:58:05.650 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:58:05.650 --> 00:58:09.520 align:middle line:90% Well, I tried so hard. 00:58:09.520 --> 00:58:11.980 align:middle line:90% It was a film-- 00:58:11.980 --> 00:58:22.060 align:middle line:84% it was a Tibet film in subtitles-- 00:58:22.060 --> 00:58:23.920 align:middle line:90% English subtitles. 00:58:23.920 --> 00:58:28.540 align:middle line:84% And they had the translation for the film. 00:58:28.540 --> 00:58:31.390 align:middle line:84% And I tried very hard to pronounce that word. 00:58:31.390 --> 00:58:37.576 align:middle line:90% 00:58:37.576 --> 00:58:43.270 align:middle line:84% [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] is the best I can do with it right now. 00:58:43.270 --> 00:58:47.280 align:middle line:84% But I think the film was called Mountain Patrol. 00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:50.230 align:middle line:90% It's in the newspapers. 00:58:50.230 --> 00:58:51.840 align:middle line:90% It's part true. 00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:53.460 align:middle line:84% It's taken from a true story that 00:58:53.460 --> 00:59:00.510 align:middle line:84% occurred in the middle of-- the early '90s, maybe '93 to '95, 00:59:00.510 --> 00:59:02.730 align:middle line:90% something like that. 00:59:02.730 --> 00:59:10.470 align:middle line:84% Where in Tibet, there is this antelope 00:59:10.470 --> 00:59:13.080 align:middle line:90% called the Tibetan antelope. 00:59:13.080 --> 00:59:22.890 align:middle line:84% And the pelt from the antelope is very valuable. 00:59:22.890 --> 00:59:26.760 align:middle line:84% And there were these Tibetans who 00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:36.640 align:middle line:84% were poaching these antelopes down to almost extinction. 00:59:36.640 --> 00:59:41.140 align:middle line:84% And there were these Tibetan police 00:59:41.140 --> 00:59:42.715 align:middle line:90% who were after the poachers. 00:59:42.715 --> 00:59:45.690 align:middle line:90% 00:59:45.690 --> 00:59:50.070 align:middle line:84% And the Tibetan police, though they 00:59:50.070 --> 00:59:54.390 align:middle line:84% were authorized to go after the poachers, 00:59:54.390 --> 00:59:59.510 align:middle line:90% were not paid by the government. 00:59:59.510 --> 01:00:02.195 align:middle line:84% They were authorized but they were not paid. 01:00:02.195 --> 01:00:05.060 align:middle line:90% 01:00:05.060 --> 01:00:06.905 align:middle line:90% And the poachers were-- 01:00:06.905 --> 01:00:10.070 align:middle line:90% 01:00:10.070 --> 01:00:12.500 align:middle line:84% like poachers are today in Africa, 01:00:12.500 --> 01:00:18.380 align:middle line:90% they will kill a policeman. 01:00:18.380 --> 01:00:20.420 align:middle line:84% So it's not just a matter of stealing it, 01:00:20.420 --> 01:00:22.530 align:middle line:90% you go to war with these people. 01:00:22.530 --> 01:00:24.950 align:middle line:84% So they had killed a whole bunch of policemen. 01:00:24.950 --> 01:00:29.900 align:middle line:84% And the policeman had killed some of them, a lot of them. 01:00:29.900 --> 01:00:35.120 align:middle line:84% So but the policemen who were out on this mission 01:00:35.120 --> 01:00:38.300 align:middle line:84% were completely, like the astronauts, 01:00:38.300 --> 01:00:43.940 align:middle line:84% completely dedicated to preserving these antelopes. 01:00:43.940 --> 01:00:47.670 align:middle line:90% 01:00:47.670 --> 01:00:57.070 align:middle line:84% Now, I'll get to this one scene that sets up the moral issue. 01:00:57.070 --> 01:01:01.120 align:middle line:84% The film gets its energy, better stated, 01:01:01.120 --> 01:01:06.940 align:middle line:84% the point of view of the film is provided by a young man who 01:01:06.940 --> 01:01:10.960 align:middle line:84% works for a newspaper who goes up to the mountains 01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:15.500 align:middle line:84% to cover the story from the point of view of the police. 01:01:15.500 --> 01:01:17.480 align:middle line:90% You all might remember my-- 01:01:17.480 --> 01:01:20.265 align:middle line:84% did I tell you the story about Leon Dash, my buddy? 01:01:20.265 --> 01:01:22.731 align:middle line:84% Maybe not, this was another class. 01:01:22.731 --> 01:01:24.679 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think you might have. 01:01:24.679 --> 01:01:28.920 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And he went to Angola? 01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:31.180 align:middle line:84% I'll tell it at the end of class. 01:01:31.180 --> 01:01:35.850 align:middle line:84% But anyway, he goes up there to go with them. 01:01:35.850 --> 01:01:41.940 align:middle line:84% He knows the language because his father was Tibetan. 01:01:41.940 --> 01:01:43.600 align:middle line:84% So that gets over the language issue. 01:01:43.600 --> 01:01:46.740 align:middle line:84% But the rest of us in the film don't know, so it's subtitled. 01:01:46.740 --> 01:01:48.720 align:middle line:84% And he's riding around with them and learning 01:01:48.720 --> 01:01:50.213 align:middle line:90% all of the problems. 01:01:50.213 --> 01:01:51.630 align:middle line:84% Well, there's this one scene where 01:01:51.630 --> 01:01:58.780 align:middle line:84% he's sitting there in this truck interviewing 01:01:58.780 --> 01:02:00.070 align:middle line:90% the captain of the police. 01:02:00.070 --> 01:02:05.130 align:middle line:90% 01:02:05.130 --> 01:02:08.790 align:middle line:84% And he learns from the captain that they had not 01:02:08.790 --> 01:02:12.430 align:middle line:90% been paid for a year. 01:02:12.430 --> 01:02:16.720 align:middle line:84% And so he says, well, how do you keep going? 01:02:16.720 --> 01:02:18.850 align:middle line:90% You've got to pay these men. 01:02:18.850 --> 01:02:21.880 align:middle line:90% You've got to feed them. 01:02:21.880 --> 01:02:24.880 align:middle line:84% Where do you get-- you've got to have your weapons. 01:02:24.880 --> 01:02:26.110 align:middle line:90% You've got to have bullets. 01:02:26.110 --> 01:02:28.540 align:middle line:84% You've got to have gasoline for the trucks. 01:02:28.540 --> 01:02:29.950 align:middle line:90% How do you keep going? 01:02:29.950 --> 01:02:35.190 align:middle line:90% 01:02:35.190 --> 01:02:42.270 align:middle line:84% When they were able to catch any poachers and get the pelts, 01:02:42.270 --> 01:02:43.680 align:middle line:84% they would take some of the pelts 01:02:43.680 --> 01:02:45.450 align:middle line:84% and sell them back into the black market. 01:02:45.450 --> 01:02:51.716 align:middle line:90% 01:02:51.716 --> 01:02:52.680 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 01:02:52.680 --> 01:02:57.960 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: [LAUGHS] Look at that contradiction? 01:02:57.960 --> 01:03:01.600 align:middle line:84% You're there to stop the black market. 01:03:01.600 --> 01:03:04.405 align:middle line:84% But the only way you can end it, you think-- 01:03:04.405 --> 01:03:05.280 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 01:03:05.280 --> 01:03:08.608 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: --is to participate in it at some level. 01:03:08.608 --> 01:03:10.650 align:middle line:84% They give the rest of it back to the authorities, 01:03:10.650 --> 01:03:11.760 align:middle line:90% the rest of the pelts. 01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:15.940 align:middle line:84% They only keep just enough to keep going. 01:03:15.940 --> 01:03:19.350 align:middle line:90% So the-- I said, my God. 01:03:19.350 --> 01:03:23.453 align:middle line:84% I was sitting there, how are you going to rationalize-- 01:03:23.453 --> 01:03:24.870 align:middle line:84% not rationalize, well, what do you 01:03:24.870 --> 01:03:27.240 align:middle line:90% do about a situation like that? 01:03:27.240 --> 01:03:28.740 align:middle line:84% Because automatically, I could think 01:03:28.740 --> 01:03:30.960 align:middle line:84% a lot of adaptations of that problem 01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:34.130 align:middle line:84% to a lot of other problems in my own life, 01:03:34.130 --> 01:03:39.240 align:middle line:84% in politics today, in the class as a subject for the class. 01:03:39.240 --> 01:03:45.240 align:middle line:84% And but the conversation continued. 01:03:45.240 --> 01:03:48.737 align:middle line:84% Now, before I tell you the last part of the conversation-- 01:03:48.737 --> 01:03:50.820 align:middle line:84% it's almost like cheating, but let's do it anyway. 01:03:50.820 --> 01:03:52.792 align:middle line:84% I'll open the floor for anybody who 01:03:52.792 --> 01:03:54.750 align:middle line:84% might want to make a comment or ask a question. 01:03:54.750 --> 01:04:00.830 align:middle line:90% 01:04:00.830 --> 01:04:01.340 align:middle line:90% The last-- 01:04:01.340 --> 01:04:03.048 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It's a very relevant situation, 01:04:03.048 --> 01:04:06.240 align:middle line:84% having to participate in something that-- 01:04:06.240 --> 01:04:10.860 align:middle line:84% yeah, and at the same time you want to bring a stop to it. 01:04:10.860 --> 01:04:11.610 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 01:04:11.610 --> 01:04:11.950 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 01:04:11.950 --> 01:04:13.325 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: The only way to stop 01:04:13.325 --> 01:04:15.320 align:middle line:90% it is to participate in it. 01:04:15.320 --> 01:04:15.820 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 01:04:15.820 --> 01:04:16.930 align:middle line:84% I mean, when you say the only way, 01:04:16.930 --> 01:04:18.640 align:middle line:84% it's the only way you can think of, all right? 01:04:18.640 --> 01:04:19.210 align:middle line:90% Anybody else? 01:04:19.210 --> 01:04:19.330 align:middle line:90% 01:04:19.330 --> 01:04:20.320 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think this goes back to what we're 01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:22.987 align:middle line:84% saying, because you can't really have that principle-- you can't 01:04:22.987 --> 01:04:25.720 align:middle line:84% go in there with the principle, the black market's bad, 01:04:25.720 --> 01:04:28.065 align:middle line:84% no matter what you do, it's horrible. 01:04:28.065 --> 01:04:30.148 align:middle line:84% And that would be your principle, because then you 01:04:30.148 --> 01:04:31.457 align:middle line:90% go to throw that away. 01:04:31.457 --> 01:04:33.790 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, I haven't thought the matter through. 01:04:33.790 --> 01:04:35.560 align:middle line:84% But my inclinations are the same as yours. 01:04:35.560 --> 01:04:39.010 align:middle line:84% And that is that you probably could not 01:04:39.010 --> 01:04:42.895 align:middle line:84% justify this thing in terms based on principle. 01:04:42.895 --> 01:04:46.120 align:middle line:84% You might be able to justify it in terms of consequences, 01:04:46.120 --> 01:04:47.822 align:middle line:90% that the greater consequence-- 01:04:47.822 --> 01:04:49.780 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Especially because, yeah, the animals 01:04:49.780 --> 01:04:50.863 align:middle line:90% have already been poached. 01:04:50.863 --> 01:04:52.113 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: You can say that. 01:04:52.113 --> 01:04:52.209 align:middle line:90% 01:04:52.209 --> 01:04:52.876 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 01:04:52.876 --> 01:04:54.287 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: All right. 01:04:54.287 --> 01:04:57.910 align:middle line:84% OK, now bring in what I think is a very important part 01:04:57.910 --> 01:05:02.590 align:middle line:90% of this whole thing. 01:05:02.590 --> 01:05:11.960 align:middle line:84% And that is that the young newspaperman-- 01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:13.960 align:middle line:84% and it's important to say to young newspaperman, 01:05:13.960 --> 01:05:16.000 align:middle line:84% because the way that the thing was set up 01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:22.360 align:middle line:84% was that the young man met the captain's daughter. 01:05:22.360 --> 01:05:26.080 align:middle line:84% And you could tell they're falling in love. 01:05:26.080 --> 01:05:30.380 align:middle line:84% So the young man says, well, if I write this article, 01:05:30.380 --> 01:05:34.420 align:middle line:84% you will go to jail for poaching-- 01:05:34.420 --> 01:05:37.570 align:middle line:84% I mean, you're participating in the black market. 01:05:37.570 --> 01:05:42.490 align:middle line:84% And he says, I don't see how I can write this. 01:05:42.490 --> 01:05:45.864 align:middle line:90% 01:05:45.864 --> 01:05:52.140 align:middle line:84% And the captain says, you have to write this article. 01:05:52.140 --> 01:05:56.711 align:middle line:84% And if I have to go to jail, so be it. 01:05:56.711 --> 01:05:59.480 align:middle line:90% 01:05:59.480 --> 01:06:00.843 align:middle line:90% Period. 01:06:00.843 --> 01:06:03.260 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Did the captain want him to write the article so 01:06:03.260 --> 01:06:06.760 align:middle line:84% that it would be made public that they weren't being paid, 01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:10.250 align:middle line:90% or [INAUDIBLE]. 01:06:10.250 --> 01:06:13.300 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, we can speculate. 01:06:13.300 --> 01:06:15.460 align:middle line:84% Now, I have the advantage because they gave me 01:06:15.460 --> 01:06:16.730 align:middle line:90% the character of this man. 01:06:16.730 --> 01:06:19.690 align:middle line:84% So I can extend out his character. 01:06:19.690 --> 01:06:21.790 align:middle line:84% But when it comes to the facts and all 01:06:21.790 --> 01:06:26.730 align:middle line:84% of this or the logic of it, we're equals. 01:06:26.730 --> 01:06:30.030 align:middle line:84% But if I extend out this man's character, 01:06:30.030 --> 01:06:32.520 align:middle line:84% I think what he was saying to the young man is, 01:06:32.520 --> 01:06:35.140 align:middle line:84% you have to do what you have to do in this life. 01:06:35.140 --> 01:06:37.620 align:middle line:90% And I have to do I have to do. 01:06:37.620 --> 01:06:39.120 align:middle line:84% Doesn't mean that they're congruent. 01:06:39.120 --> 01:06:39.940 align:middle line:90% So be it. 01:06:39.940 --> 01:06:42.130 align:middle line:84% That's what I think he was saying. 01:06:42.130 --> 01:06:44.890 align:middle line:84% And I think the movie laid out, at least for me, 01:06:44.890 --> 01:06:49.520 align:middle line:90% a sort of fatherly relationship. 01:06:49.520 --> 01:06:52.782 align:middle line:84% That's what you do with your son of your daughter. 01:06:52.782 --> 01:06:54.240 align:middle line:84% You have to do what you have to do, 01:06:54.240 --> 01:06:58.210 align:middle line:84% and I have to do what I have to do. 01:06:58.210 --> 01:07:02.140 align:middle line:84% So that's the way that-- if it was laid out differently, 01:07:02.140 --> 01:07:06.370 align:middle line:84% if there wasn't an emotional relationship with them through 01:07:06.370 --> 01:07:11.000 align:middle line:84% his daughter, then you could say, well-- 01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:13.150 align:middle line:84% what really happened in real life 01:07:13.150 --> 01:07:18.370 align:middle line:84% was that the coverage by this newspaper man of what they did 01:07:18.370 --> 01:07:20.500 align:middle line:84% changed the whole situation around. 01:07:20.500 --> 01:07:23.410 align:middle line:84% Public opinion got out all over the world 01:07:23.410 --> 01:07:26.620 align:middle line:84% and the government had to pay-- not only pay them, 01:07:26.620 --> 01:07:29.260 align:middle line:84% but had to establish a larger force 01:07:29.260 --> 01:07:30.910 align:middle line:84% and do all of these other things. 01:07:30.910 --> 01:07:34.300 align:middle line:90% 01:07:34.300 --> 01:07:38.790 align:middle line:84% So you could say that, yeah, the solution to the problem 01:07:38.790 --> 01:07:42.060 align:middle line:84% was not so much the black market but the public opinion. 01:07:42.060 --> 01:07:47.280 align:middle line:90% 01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:54.130 align:middle line:84% But the film set up a little bit of an emotional, 01:07:54.130 --> 01:07:55.660 align:middle line:90% and the characters made it work. 01:07:55.660 --> 01:08:03.920 align:middle line:90% 01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:08.460 align:middle line:84% Well, this was significant to me for all sorts of reasons. 01:08:08.460 --> 01:08:10.175 align:middle line:84% But you're going to see this thing again. 01:08:10.175 --> 01:08:11.300 align:middle line:90% You've seen it once before. 01:08:11.300 --> 01:08:14.720 align:middle line:84% You're going to see it again next week. 01:08:14.720 --> 01:08:16.310 align:middle line:90% I talked about-- 01:08:16.310 --> 01:08:18.620 align:middle line:84% I think I talked about my approach 01:08:18.620 --> 01:08:24.140 align:middle line:84% to this narrative ethics, that in an engineering situation 01:08:24.140 --> 01:08:33.435 align:middle line:84% sometimes knowing what the right thing is regarded as really not 01:08:33.435 --> 01:08:34.310 align:middle line:90% possible at the time. 01:08:34.310 --> 01:08:37.310 align:middle line:84% You got to make up [INAUDIBLE] and make a decision right away, 01:08:37.310 --> 01:08:40.279 align:middle line:90% potentially lethal. 01:08:40.279 --> 01:08:44.300 align:middle line:84% And the Western approach to ethics 01:08:44.300 --> 01:08:45.920 align:middle line:84% just will not work, because you're 01:08:45.920 --> 01:08:48.899 align:middle line:84% talking about doing the right thing one way or the other. 01:08:48.899 --> 01:08:52.439 align:middle line:84% And so, I came in with a more or less from left field, 01:08:52.439 --> 01:08:54.859 align:middle line:84% so to speak, with this idea let's 01:08:54.859 --> 01:08:56.550 align:middle line:84% not worry about doing the right thing. 01:08:56.550 --> 01:09:00.109 align:middle line:84% Let's do what we think we have to do, 01:09:00.109 --> 01:09:04.640 align:middle line:84% and after it's done hope that everybody will forgive us, 01:09:04.640 --> 01:09:05.960 align:middle line:90% basically. 01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:10.460 align:middle line:84% Well, it seems to me that I have two metaphors 01:09:10.460 --> 01:09:15.050 align:middle line:90% for that attitude in Western-- 01:09:15.050 --> 01:09:17.330 align:middle line:90% in USA society. 01:09:17.330 --> 01:09:20.689 align:middle line:84% But this one provides another metaphor. 01:09:20.689 --> 01:09:27.260 align:middle line:84% Because it says that when I look into the character 01:09:27.260 --> 01:09:35.180 align:middle line:84% of the captain, then what he thought he had to do 01:09:35.180 --> 01:09:38.689 align:middle line:84% was something that even if he went to jail for, 01:09:38.689 --> 01:09:45.450 align:middle line:84% the Tibetan people would have some kind of understanding 01:09:45.450 --> 01:09:46.830 align:middle line:90% of and appreciation for. 01:09:46.830 --> 01:09:55.000 align:middle line:84% And in American society, I say that Martin Luther King 01:09:55.000 --> 01:09:57.580 align:middle line:90% went to jail. 01:09:57.580 --> 01:10:00.655 align:middle line:84% Nobody ever said he shouldn't have gone to jail. 01:10:00.655 --> 01:10:02.030 align:middle line:84% But when he got out of jail, they 01:10:02.030 --> 01:10:03.738 align:middle line:90% gave him the Nobel Prize for it. 01:10:03.738 --> 01:10:06.670 align:middle line:90% 01:10:06.670 --> 01:10:10.540 align:middle line:84% One that reaches more closely into if you 01:10:10.540 --> 01:10:14.380 align:middle line:84% have to deal with young Americans 01:10:14.380 --> 01:10:17.950 align:middle line:84% is that there's a good metaphor in basketball. 01:10:17.950 --> 01:10:19.210 align:middle line:90% It's called the good foul. 01:10:19.210 --> 01:10:22.840 align:middle line:90% 01:10:22.840 --> 01:10:26.950 align:middle line:84% It's a way of breaking the rules, 01:10:26.950 --> 01:10:32.080 align:middle line:84% making sure that the referee sees you break the rule. 01:10:32.080 --> 01:10:33.850 align:middle line:90% And after you have done-- 01:10:33.850 --> 01:10:37.960 align:middle line:90% broken the rule, the opponent-- 01:10:37.960 --> 01:10:41.560 align:middle line:84% your opponent will congratulate you for it, 01:10:41.560 --> 01:10:42.790 align:middle line:90% give you five, good move. 01:10:42.790 --> 01:10:46.860 align:middle line:90% 01:10:46.860 --> 01:10:49.110 align:middle line:84% So that's what this is all about when 01:10:49.110 --> 01:10:52.390 align:middle line:84% I say that a break away from the Western tradition 01:10:52.390 --> 01:10:54.550 align:middle line:84% and borrow from some other traditions, 01:10:54.550 --> 01:10:59.820 align:middle line:84% you are really doing something that fits in with this captain, 01:10:59.820 --> 01:11:01.980 align:middle line:84% it fits in with Martin Luther King, 01:11:01.980 --> 01:11:05.790 align:middle line:84% it fits in with the good foul and basketball. 01:11:05.790 --> 01:11:14.670 align:middle line:84% And one of the chief features is public knowledge. 01:11:14.670 --> 01:11:18.540 align:middle line:84% The captain did not want to hide what he was doing. 01:11:18.540 --> 01:11:21.540 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] The good foul can only work 01:11:21.540 --> 01:11:24.630 align:middle line:84% if the referee sees you and calls you for the foul. 01:11:24.630 --> 01:11:26.310 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:11:26.310 --> 01:11:28.620 align:middle line:84% Martin Luther King's going to jail 01:11:28.620 --> 01:11:30.702 align:middle line:84% could only work if he went to jail. 01:11:30.702 --> 01:11:32.310 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:11:32.310 --> 01:11:35.460 align:middle line:84% He did what he did and he hid it and went out, it wouldn't work. 01:11:35.460 --> 01:11:38.110 align:middle line:90% He had to be caught. 01:11:38.110 --> 01:11:40.320 align:middle line:84% So a lot of things that people do 01:11:40.320 --> 01:11:43.778 align:middle line:84% that they try to justify as being the morally right thing 01:11:43.778 --> 01:11:45.570 align:middle line:84% is not going to fit in the category of what 01:11:45.570 --> 01:11:47.737 align:middle line:84% I'm talking about because they try to keep a secret. 01:11:47.737 --> 01:11:51.348 align:middle line:90% 01:11:51.348 --> 01:11:52.890 align:middle line:84% And that's where you divide the line. 01:11:52.890 --> 01:11:55.140 align:middle line:84% Do they want everybody to know or do they want to say, 01:11:55.140 --> 01:11:56.820 align:middle line:84% no, we're going to do the right thing 01:11:56.820 --> 01:11:59.670 align:middle line:90% and just not tell anybody. 01:11:59.670 --> 01:12:03.070 align:middle line:84% That does not fit in what I'm talking about. 01:12:03.070 --> 01:12:07.110 align:middle line:84% So that when we do the narrative ethics next week, 01:12:07.110 --> 01:12:12.300 align:middle line:84% I want you all to have an intuitive feel for what 01:12:12.300 --> 01:12:14.550 align:middle line:84% I am trying to say that goes beneath what 01:12:14.550 --> 01:12:17.864 align:middle line:90% might be let out in our-- 01:12:17.864 --> 01:12:21.500 align:middle line:90% at a class, special class.