WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.570 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.570 --> 00:00:02.370 align:middle line:84% The following content is provided 00:00:02.370 --> 00:00:06.330 align:middle line:84% by MIT OpenCourseWare under a Creative Commons license. 00:00:06.330 --> 00:00:08.430 align:middle line:84% Additional information about our license, 00:00:08.430 --> 00:00:10.800 align:middle line:84% and MIT OpenCourseWare in general, 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:12.740 align:middle line:90% is available at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:12.740 --> 00:00:15.420 align:middle line:90% 00:00:15.420 --> 00:00:17.010 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Let's see-- 00:00:17.010 --> 00:00:21.120 align:middle line:84% I've got two issues that came to my attention 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:24.060 align:middle line:84% since the last class that I want to go over. 00:00:24.060 --> 00:00:26.482 align:middle line:84% I want to give your papers back, but I don't 00:00:26.482 --> 00:00:27.690 align:middle line:90% want to give them back today. 00:00:27.690 --> 00:00:31.730 align:middle line:90% 00:00:31.730 --> 00:00:35.270 align:middle line:84% Also, do can Thursday wait or do you want comments on it 00:00:35.270 --> 00:00:36.680 align:middle line:90% tonight? 00:00:36.680 --> 00:00:39.500 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I can work with Thursday, yeah. 00:00:39.500 --> 00:00:41.730 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Thursday-- 00:00:41.730 --> 00:00:43.375 align:middle line:84% I have some thoughts on your papers, 00:00:43.375 --> 00:00:46.791 align:middle line:84% and I just could not come to one conclusion [INAUDIBLE].. 00:00:46.791 --> 00:00:50.228 align:middle line:90% 00:00:50.228 --> 00:00:53.320 align:middle line:84% That's what happens with this business. 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.410 align:middle line:90% Then, I want to-- 00:00:56.410 --> 00:01:01.343 align:middle line:84% did you get my news article and what I discussed there? 00:01:01.343 --> 00:01:02.260 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 00:01:02.260 --> 00:01:07.760 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Then we have a couple of cases outstanding. 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:10.665 align:middle line:90% How many, two? 00:01:10.665 --> 00:01:12.916 align:middle line:90% Ford Pinto-- 00:01:12.916 --> 00:01:14.130 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: And Challenger. 00:01:14.130 --> 00:01:15.790 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: And Challenger-- 00:01:15.790 --> 00:01:17.443 align:middle line:90% no, no, Challenger? 00:01:17.443 --> 00:01:18.610 align:middle line:90% I thought we were going to-- 00:01:18.610 --> 00:01:18.790 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, you said we would 00:01:18.790 --> 00:01:22.090 align:middle line:84% finish talking about that, and then talk about Pinto. 00:01:22.090 --> 00:01:23.560 align:middle line:90% So it's like one and a half. 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:28.470 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: All right, and then we'll assign some more, 00:01:28.470 --> 00:01:35.190 align:middle line:90% and then we'll be ready to go. 00:01:35.190 --> 00:01:37.340 align:middle line:84% Let's deal with the two issues first. 00:01:37.340 --> 00:01:38.660 align:middle line:90% Dr. [INAUDIBLE] brought up one. 00:01:38.660 --> 00:01:44.340 align:middle line:90% 00:01:44.340 --> 00:01:47.880 align:middle line:84% And I'll tell you my thoughts on the matter, 00:01:47.880 --> 00:01:51.240 align:middle line:84% but I'd like for it to be a class discussion. 00:01:51.240 --> 00:01:56.462 align:middle line:84% Now, the way I understand the problem is, 00:01:56.462 --> 00:01:57.420 align:middle line:90% let's see if we can't-- 00:01:57.420 --> 00:02:00.330 align:middle line:90% 00:02:00.330 --> 00:02:03.380 align:middle line:90% well, I was going to act it out. 00:02:03.380 --> 00:02:03.990 align:middle line:90% I'll try. 00:02:03.990 --> 00:02:06.860 align:middle line:90% So I'll act two parts. 00:02:06.860 --> 00:02:07.490 align:middle line:90% I'll try that. 00:02:07.490 --> 00:02:08.970 align:middle line:84% I don't know if it's going to work. 00:02:08.970 --> 00:02:16.680 align:middle line:84% But the situation is a job interview 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:26.050 align:middle line:84% And I am just graduated from MIT, 00:02:26.050 --> 00:02:27.460 align:middle line:84% and you're going to interview me. 00:02:27.460 --> 00:02:28.810 align:middle line:90% You're this big boss on the job. 00:02:28.810 --> 00:02:31.450 align:middle line:90% 00:02:31.450 --> 00:02:38.210 align:middle line:84% And you are my friend, my personal friend from years. 00:02:38.210 --> 00:02:42.273 align:middle line:84% So the job is one in which I'm going to be an engineer, 00:02:42.273 --> 00:02:43.690 align:middle line:84% but I'm going to have to interface 00:02:43.690 --> 00:02:44.920 align:middle line:90% the general public a lot. 00:02:44.920 --> 00:02:47.896 align:middle line:90% 00:02:47.896 --> 00:02:52.520 align:middle line:84% You know me as a person who is not exactly 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:54.770 align:middle line:90% the nicest person in the world-- 00:02:54.770 --> 00:03:00.560 align:middle line:84% a little bit moody, and can generally 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:03.860 align:middle line:90% irritate people occasionally. 00:03:03.860 --> 00:03:05.540 align:middle line:90% But I want this job. 00:03:05.540 --> 00:03:07.250 align:middle line:90% So the situation is this-- 00:03:07.250 --> 00:03:11.330 align:middle line:90% I go in, and I'm all happy. 00:03:11.330 --> 00:03:14.630 align:middle line:84% And you tell me, well, sit down, Mr. So-and-so. 00:03:14.630 --> 00:03:18.350 align:middle line:84% And this is company X, and this is what we do. 00:03:18.350 --> 00:03:19.370 align:middle line:90% How can you help us out? 00:03:19.370 --> 00:03:22.670 align:middle line:84% And I'm going to say, I'm going to meet with these people. 00:03:22.670 --> 00:03:25.160 align:middle line:84% I'm going to make them love company X. 00:03:25.160 --> 00:03:27.395 align:middle line:84% And we are going to make a lot of money together. 00:03:27.395 --> 00:03:30.580 align:middle line:90% 00:03:30.580 --> 00:03:33.940 align:middle line:90% End of situation. 00:03:33.940 --> 00:03:35.510 align:middle line:90% Have I lied? 00:03:35.510 --> 00:03:39.830 align:middle line:84% Have I misrepresented myself to this potential employer just 00:03:39.830 --> 00:03:42.370 align:middle line:90% to get a job? 00:03:42.370 --> 00:03:44.350 align:middle line:84% Should I have portrayed myself more 00:03:44.350 --> 00:03:46.300 align:middle line:90% like quote unquote "myself"? 00:03:46.300 --> 00:03:53.752 align:middle line:90% 00:03:53.752 --> 00:03:55.960 align:middle line:84% Is this an ethical situation, or just some other kind 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:56.920 align:middle line:90% of situation? 00:03:56.920 --> 00:03:57.480 align:middle line:90% Is it legal? 00:03:57.480 --> 00:03:58.105 align:middle line:90% Is it business? 00:03:58.105 --> 00:04:03.120 align:middle line:90% 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.390 align:middle line:84% Now, I have the unfair advantage of having 00:04:06.390 --> 00:04:09.855 align:middle line:84% thought about this thing for about six days, five days. 00:04:09.855 --> 00:04:12.910 align:middle line:90% 00:04:12.910 --> 00:04:16.110 align:middle line:84% So if you want me to give you my reaction first, I will do it. 00:04:16.110 --> 00:04:18.445 align:middle line:84% But I'd prefer if you gave me yours. 00:04:18.445 --> 00:04:20.070 align:middle line:84% Let me give you a few minutes to think. 00:04:20.070 --> 00:04:20.778 align:middle line:90% Talk if you want. 00:04:20.778 --> 00:04:28.720 align:middle line:90% 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:31.052 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So did you pose this question? 00:04:31.052 --> 00:04:34.524 align:middle line:90% [SIDE CONVERSATION] 00:04:34.524 --> 00:05:17.225 align:middle line:90% 00:05:17.225 --> 00:05:19.600 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, that-- your background helps a little bit 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:23.753 align:middle line:84% because as you were explaining the situation, 00:05:23.753 --> 00:05:25.420 align:middle line:84% I was thinking about, well, he's talking 00:05:25.420 --> 00:05:30.280 align:middle line:84% about the representation of personality traits. 00:05:30.280 --> 00:05:33.790 align:middle line:84% Because you said you're moody, you tend to irritate people. 00:05:33.790 --> 00:05:36.580 align:middle line:84% But what you're talking about is skills-- 00:05:36.580 --> 00:05:38.950 align:middle line:84% what you talk about first, anyway, is skill sets. 00:05:38.950 --> 00:05:42.610 align:middle line:84% And misrepresenting skill sets in a job interview 00:05:42.610 --> 00:05:45.700 align:middle line:84% is different than portraying yourself 00:05:45.700 --> 00:05:47.830 align:middle line:90% to have a certain personality. 00:05:47.830 --> 00:05:50.956 align:middle line:84% Both things are important for job [INAUDIBLE],, I guess, 00:05:50.956 --> 00:05:53.660 align:middle line:90% personality and skill set, but-- 00:05:53.660 --> 00:05:56.048 align:middle line:90% 00:05:56.048 --> 00:05:58.090 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, would you say that interacting 00:05:58.090 --> 00:06:02.200 align:middle line:84% with the general public requires a certain skill set, also? 00:06:02.200 --> 00:06:04.940 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Mm-hmm. 00:06:04.940 --> 00:06:10.130 align:middle line:84% I feel like if you're hiring someone whose job will involve 00:06:10.130 --> 00:06:13.280 align:middle line:84% a lot of public relations, the burden perhaps 00:06:13.280 --> 00:06:16.520 align:middle line:84% falls on you to really find out what 00:06:16.520 --> 00:06:21.500 align:middle line:84% that person is like interacting with the public. 00:06:21.500 --> 00:06:22.600 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:24.517 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Can you do it in a job interview? 00:06:24.517 --> 00:06:26.050 align:middle line:90% Is there enough time? 00:06:26.050 --> 00:06:27.790 align:middle line:90% Do you have a test case? 00:06:27.790 --> 00:06:31.240 align:middle line:84% Do you have a random person in the room that you could-- 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:32.635 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Maybe, yeah. 00:06:32.635 --> 00:06:35.530 align:middle line:84% Or do a panel of interviewers or something. 00:06:35.530 --> 00:06:38.320 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, I'm trying to make it as simple as possible, 00:06:38.320 --> 00:06:39.510 align:middle line:90% just one, just two persons. 00:06:39.510 --> 00:06:42.561 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Well, [INAUDIBLE] 00:06:42.561 --> 00:06:47.380 align:middle line:90% 00:06:47.380 --> 00:06:49.147 align:middle line:84% Great, they just haven't seen you-- 00:06:49.147 --> 00:06:50.730 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Be that way all the time. 00:06:50.730 --> 00:06:52.865 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: --that way at the job. 00:06:52.865 --> 00:06:54.240 align:middle line:84% But maybe I make the distinction. 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.930 align:middle line:84% I think it's possible to be a certain way on the job and not 00:06:57.930 --> 00:07:00.370 align:middle line:84% really that way, because I just know a lot of people who 00:07:00.370 --> 00:07:02.102 align:middle line:90% have a different work persona. 00:07:02.102 --> 00:07:04.060 align:middle line:84% And when they get home, that's really not them, 00:07:04.060 --> 00:07:08.400 align:middle line:84% but they make it work for the job. 00:07:08.400 --> 00:07:13.830 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Now, can we put any of this in the language 00:07:13.830 --> 00:07:15.810 align:middle line:90% of ethics, any of these views? 00:07:15.810 --> 00:07:23.940 align:middle line:84% Can we defend it, if we had to, among scholars? 00:07:23.940 --> 00:07:28.080 align:middle line:84% Does the literature help in any way with this? 00:07:28.080 --> 00:07:32.270 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So one moral rule, you're suggesting, 00:07:32.270 --> 00:07:38.830 align:middle line:84% is that one should always reveal their personality 00:07:38.830 --> 00:07:44.350 align:middle line:84% flaws in setting up a new relationship. 00:07:44.350 --> 00:07:46.180 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: I'm not suggesting that. 00:07:46.180 --> 00:07:47.110 align:middle line:90% Take that part away. 00:07:47.110 --> 00:07:49.620 align:middle line:90% I'm not suggesting that. 00:07:49.620 --> 00:07:51.427 align:middle line:84% That is really the question, isn't it? 00:07:51.427 --> 00:07:52.760 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I mean, that's-- 00:07:52.760 --> 00:07:54.343 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Or maybe it isn't imperative 00:07:54.343 --> 00:07:57.580 align:middle line:84% that you present yourself as you truly are at a job interview. 00:07:57.580 --> 00:07:59.680 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:03.090 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: The interviewer didn't say, are you moody? 00:08:03.090 --> 00:08:05.890 align:middle line:84% They just said, how can you help? 00:08:05.890 --> 00:08:07.760 align:middle line:90% How can you help our company? 00:08:07.760 --> 00:08:12.340 align:middle line:90% So we're thinking about ethics-- 00:08:12.340 --> 00:08:14.725 align:middle line:84% the applicant didn't directly lie. 00:08:14.725 --> 00:08:18.777 align:middle line:90% 00:08:18.777 --> 00:08:21.110 align:middle line:84% Unless we know more about what went on in the interview, 00:08:21.110 --> 00:08:23.970 align:middle line:90% we can't say that he lied. 00:08:23.970 --> 00:08:27.570 align:middle line:84% He just talked about the skills that he 00:08:27.570 --> 00:08:31.320 align:middle line:84% thought would be helpful to the question that was asked. 00:08:31.320 --> 00:08:34.860 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, the person that I was portraying, 00:08:34.860 --> 00:08:38.340 align:middle line:84% and the way I understood from your email, 00:08:38.340 --> 00:08:44.790 align:middle line:84% was a person that was worried that he or she might 00:08:44.790 --> 00:08:50.340 align:middle line:84% be using another person as a means to his own ends. 00:08:50.340 --> 00:08:53.370 align:middle line:84% And Kant says-- another formulation of the Kantian rule 00:08:53.370 --> 00:08:56.370 align:middle line:84% is that you don't use another person 00:08:56.370 --> 00:08:59.880 align:middle line:90% to advance your own ends. 00:08:59.880 --> 00:09:02.260 align:middle line:90% And the question is can it-- 00:09:02.260 --> 00:09:06.150 align:middle line:84% so the question for me is whether or not 00:09:06.150 --> 00:09:11.530 align:middle line:84% all I'm interested in is using this person. 00:09:11.530 --> 00:09:13.540 align:middle line:90% The second question is-- 00:09:13.540 --> 00:09:15.550 align:middle line:90% there's another question. 00:09:15.550 --> 00:09:19.960 align:middle line:84% And that's a question that has a legal term, 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:21.820 align:middle line:90% but which is also a moral term. 00:09:21.820 --> 00:09:25.390 align:middle line:84% I want to use this word from the moral point of view. 00:09:25.390 --> 00:09:28.060 align:middle line:90% The word is contract. 00:09:28.060 --> 00:09:29.455 align:middle line:90% So we're here. 00:09:29.455 --> 00:09:33.220 align:middle line:84% You may wish to establish a contract. 00:09:33.220 --> 00:09:38.830 align:middle line:84% And the contract is not going to be to act out my real, 00:09:38.830 --> 00:09:41.200 align:middle line:84% or whatever I think my personality is 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:42.010 align:middle line:90% with this public. 00:09:42.010 --> 00:09:46.150 align:middle line:84% The contract is to act personable with these people. 00:09:46.150 --> 00:09:48.610 align:middle line:84% And the question is, from a psychological point of view, 00:09:48.610 --> 00:09:55.690 align:middle line:84% can I play this game for the duration of my employment? 00:09:55.690 --> 00:09:59.350 align:middle line:90% Or will the real me set in? 00:09:59.350 --> 00:10:04.910 align:middle line:84% And I think you said something that I see the point to, 00:10:04.910 --> 00:10:11.780 align:middle line:84% and that is that we do have multiple personas. 00:10:11.780 --> 00:10:14.170 align:middle line:90% One of them is our personality. 00:10:14.170 --> 00:10:17.740 align:middle line:84% But we can put on a persona from 9:00 to 5:00, 00:10:17.740 --> 00:10:22.110 align:middle line:84% Monday through Friday, for 20 years. 00:10:22.110 --> 00:10:25.170 align:middle line:84% And the contract is you don't care what my personality is. 00:10:25.170 --> 00:10:28.080 align:middle line:84% You want to if I can do this particular job, 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:31.770 align:middle line:84% and if I can really be the nice person. 00:10:31.770 --> 00:10:34.470 align:middle line:84% Let's put one more little piece in the game. 00:10:34.470 --> 00:10:39.240 align:middle line:90% 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:39.990 align:middle line:90% There's a book-- 00:10:39.990 --> 00:10:45.260 align:middle line:90% 00:10:45.260 --> 00:10:51.600 align:middle line:84% I forget the author's name, but if you find the book 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:54.440 align:middle line:84% and you have any questions, the author is a faculty member 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:56.030 align:middle line:90% right up the street at Harvard. 00:10:56.030 --> 00:11:16.793 align:middle line:84% And the book is called Pygmalion in the Classroom. 00:11:16.793 --> 00:11:21.230 align:middle line:90% 00:11:21.230 --> 00:11:27.935 align:middle line:84% Now, this word Pygmalion, have you heard of that word before? 00:11:27.935 --> 00:11:28.435 align:middle line:90% It's a name. 00:11:28.435 --> 00:11:31.408 align:middle line:90% 00:11:31.408 --> 00:11:33.868 align:middle line:90% What have you heard? 00:11:33.868 --> 00:11:35.350 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: A play. 00:11:35.350 --> 00:11:37.330 align:middle line:90% It's a play. 00:11:37.330 --> 00:11:39.550 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Oh, George Bernard Shaw 00:11:39.550 --> 00:11:41.820 align:middle line:90% wrote a play called Pygmalion. 00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:44.620 align:middle line:90% 00:11:44.620 --> 00:11:50.410 align:middle line:84% You may know it better as a musical that 00:11:50.410 --> 00:11:52.970 align:middle line:90% was made for movies. 00:11:52.970 --> 00:11:54.647 align:middle line:90% It's called My Fair Lady. 00:11:54.647 --> 00:11:58.060 align:middle line:90% 00:11:58.060 --> 00:12:03.060 align:middle line:84% Actually, Pygmalion goes back to, 00:12:03.060 --> 00:12:05.270 align:middle line:84% I think, second or third century BC. 00:12:05.270 --> 00:12:08.120 align:middle line:90% It's a myth. 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:10.400 align:middle line:84% But let's deal with My Fair Lady. 00:12:10.400 --> 00:12:13.514 align:middle line:84% Do you remember the theme in My Fair Lady? 00:12:13.514 --> 00:12:15.506 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I think there's a [INAUDIBLE] 00:12:15.506 --> 00:12:18.992 align:middle line:84% and he takes a lady some flowers [INAUDIBLE].. 00:12:18.992 --> 00:12:24.980 align:middle line:90% 00:12:24.980 --> 00:12:26.720 align:middle line:84% I think he's in bed with someone. 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:28.100 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: That's what the key is, yeah. 00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:30.350 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And they can't tell that she was just a lady 00:12:30.350 --> 00:12:32.210 align:middle line:84% selling flowers a few months ago. 00:12:32.210 --> 00:12:35.540 align:middle line:84% They thought she came from even royalty 00:12:35.540 --> 00:12:37.046 align:middle line:84% just because she changed her manners 00:12:37.046 --> 00:12:39.310 align:middle line:90% and she spoke [INAUDIBLE]. 00:12:39.310 --> 00:12:44.590 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yes, the issue was whether or not 00:12:44.590 --> 00:12:49.630 align:middle line:84% gentility and nobility was inborn 00:12:49.630 --> 00:12:52.210 align:middle line:90% or whether it could be taught. 00:12:52.210 --> 00:12:55.550 align:middle line:84% And these young guys had this bet. 00:12:55.550 --> 00:12:57.220 align:middle line:84% And this one guy said, well, I'll 00:12:57.220 --> 00:13:01.360 align:middle line:84% take that flower lady selling the flowers here on the street, 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:03.730 align:middle line:84% and a year from now she'll be a lady. 00:13:03.730 --> 00:13:06.910 align:middle line:90% And they made this money bet. 00:13:06.910 --> 00:13:11.410 align:middle line:84% And so at the end of the year, he has this coming-out party 00:13:11.410 --> 00:13:13.510 align:middle line:90% for her after training her. 00:13:13.510 --> 00:13:18.795 align:middle line:84% And all three of the guys fall in love with her, all three 00:13:18.795 --> 00:13:22.240 align:middle line:84% of these these aristocrats or whatever. 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:27.100 align:middle line:84% Pygmalion in the Classroom actually 00:13:27.100 --> 00:13:36.160 align:middle line:84% is an empirical science study that asks whether or not 00:13:36.160 --> 00:13:41.080 align:middle line:84% a person, a teacher, can have a preconceived notion 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:46.230 align:middle line:84% about a student consciously and unconsciously, 00:13:46.230 --> 00:13:48.870 align:middle line:84% but mainly unconsciously, and whether or not 00:13:48.870 --> 00:13:52.980 align:middle line:84% that predisposition will have an effect 00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:54.270 align:middle line:90% on the student's performance. 00:13:54.270 --> 00:13:57.350 align:middle line:90% 00:13:57.350 --> 00:14:02.090 align:middle line:84% So he deals with gender and race issues. 00:14:02.090 --> 00:14:05.780 align:middle line:84% And he says if the teacher has a predisposition that women 00:14:05.780 --> 00:14:09.470 align:middle line:84% cannot learn math, and this is a math class, 00:14:09.470 --> 00:14:12.890 align:middle line:90% then no matter how he-- 00:14:12.890 --> 00:14:14.880 align:middle line:84% I'm going to say he in this case-- 00:14:14.880 --> 00:14:17.720 align:middle line:84% no matter how he tries to be fair, 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:22.550 align:middle line:84% chances are the women will not perform as well as they 00:14:22.550 --> 00:14:24.950 align:middle line:90% would ordinarily. 00:14:24.950 --> 00:14:28.940 align:middle line:84% Now let's see if they can get a real case like that. 00:14:28.940 --> 00:14:33.530 align:middle line:84% When I was in graduate school, that 00:14:33.530 --> 00:14:37.880 align:middle line:84% was actually my first educational experience that 00:14:37.880 --> 00:14:39.365 align:middle line:90% was not dominated by Blacks. 00:14:39.365 --> 00:14:42.700 align:middle line:90% 00:14:42.700 --> 00:14:45.760 align:middle line:84% So I go into the classroom, and the teacher 00:14:45.760 --> 00:14:50.680 align:middle line:84% would ask particularly deep questions that have 00:14:50.680 --> 00:14:54.250 align:middle line:90% a particularly deep answer. 00:14:54.250 --> 00:14:58.330 align:middle line:84% And I'd raise my hand and give that particularly deep answer. 00:14:58.330 --> 00:15:02.260 align:middle line:84% Decent person, 20 minutes later, he 00:15:02.260 --> 00:15:05.170 align:middle line:84% would attribute that answer to another student. 00:15:05.170 --> 00:15:06.670 align:middle line:84% I raised my hand, and said, hold it. 00:15:06.670 --> 00:15:09.220 align:middle line:90% 00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:13.030 align:middle line:84% Kowalski didn't say that, I was the one who said that. 00:15:13.030 --> 00:15:15.250 align:middle line:84% And I'd take my chances with irritating the person 00:15:15.250 --> 00:15:18.370 align:middle line:84% and getting a bad grade for personality conflict. 00:15:18.370 --> 00:15:20.830 align:middle line:84% The good news is, this is a decent person. 00:15:20.830 --> 00:15:24.220 align:middle line:84% And person said, oh, how could I have made that mistake? 00:15:24.220 --> 00:15:28.690 align:middle line:84% This person's research says that the brain operates off 00:15:28.690 --> 00:15:31.210 align:middle line:90% of preconceived notions-- 00:15:31.210 --> 00:15:32.500 align:middle line:90% that you are set up. 00:15:32.500 --> 00:15:35.020 align:middle line:84% Your brain is set up to see or hear 00:15:35.020 --> 00:15:36.988 align:middle line:90% a certain thing a certain way. 00:15:36.988 --> 00:15:38.530 align:middle line:84% You really have to go out of your way 00:15:38.530 --> 00:15:40.960 align:middle line:84% to retrain your brain in certain cases. 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:43.877 align:middle line:90% 00:15:43.877 --> 00:15:45.460 align:middle line:84% Now we see why we're talking about why 00:15:45.460 --> 00:15:46.750 align:middle line:90% he calls it Pygmalion. 00:15:46.750 --> 00:15:48.490 align:middle line:84% There's another term that came out, 00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:52.460 align:middle line:84% I think he did not invent, was called Pygmalion effect. 00:15:52.460 --> 00:15:57.270 align:middle line:84% So it's more broadly than in the classroom. 00:15:57.270 --> 00:16:03.660 align:middle line:84% So the question is, if I am a moody person-- 00:16:03.660 --> 00:16:05.820 align:middle line:90% going back to our situation-- 00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:12.810 align:middle line:84% a moody, mean-spirited person, can I 00:16:12.810 --> 00:16:18.310 align:middle line:90% deliver my term of the contract? 00:16:18.310 --> 00:16:20.893 align:middle line:84% Let's go a little bit further, just in case you're interested. 00:16:20.893 --> 00:16:23.600 align:middle line:90% 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.980 align:middle line:84% A big literature on this same subject, and I'll 00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:29.570 align:middle line:84% give you one name that I remember. 00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:34.310 align:middle line:90% 00:16:34.310 --> 00:16:36.140 align:middle line:90% I call this one, call this two. 00:16:36.140 --> 00:16:41.300 align:middle line:84% This is an author's name, Nel Noddings. 00:16:41.300 --> 00:16:43.730 align:middle line:84% Nel Noddings has written some books, 00:16:43.730 --> 00:16:52.140 align:middle line:84% but she mainly has collaborated with professors of nursing. 00:16:52.140 --> 00:16:55.730 align:middle line:90% 00:16:55.730 --> 00:16:57.530 align:middle line:84% The professors of nursing want to make 00:16:57.530 --> 00:17:04.250 align:middle line:84% a distinction between caring and care-giving, 00:17:04.250 --> 00:17:10.280 align:middle line:84% and the nurses want to say that a doctor can give care 00:17:10.280 --> 00:17:14.000 align:middle line:84% without caring, strictly business, 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:17.745 align:middle line:84% but that a nurse can't give nursing care without actually 00:17:17.745 --> 00:17:18.245 align:middle line:90% caring. 00:17:18.245 --> 00:17:21.930 align:middle line:90% 00:17:21.930 --> 00:17:24.803 align:middle line:90% Because of these effects-- 00:17:24.803 --> 00:17:26.220 align:middle line:84% that the patient will look at you, 00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:31.350 align:middle line:84% and say, you really don't care about me, and then suffer, 00:17:31.350 --> 00:17:33.000 align:middle line:90% maybe die. 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:34.990 align:middle line:84% But we don't ask that question with the doctor. 00:17:34.990 --> 00:17:36.407 align:middle line:84% The doctor comes in there, we want 00:17:36.407 --> 00:17:39.000 align:middle line:84% the doctor to do the surgery or whatever and do it right. 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.340 align:middle line:84% We don't care if the person cares about us. 00:17:41.340 --> 00:17:43.120 align:middle line:90% So they make that statement. 00:17:43.120 --> 00:17:46.500 align:middle line:90% So the question then is, can-- 00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:50.760 align:middle line:84% another question is, can we actually do these things? 00:17:50.760 --> 00:17:54.000 align:middle line:84% Well, I want to say that my thought about the whole matter 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:58.710 align:middle line:84% is that you have to assume that you can do it when you come 00:17:58.710 --> 00:18:02.070 align:middle line:84% into an interview, and portray yourself in this particular way 00:18:02.070 --> 00:18:04.830 align:middle line:90% to get this job, and to keep it. 00:18:04.830 --> 00:18:07.970 align:middle line:84% You have to assume that you can do it, 00:18:07.970 --> 00:18:11.250 align:middle line:84% that you can put on that business persona, 00:18:11.250 --> 00:18:13.410 align:middle line:84% and that you are sincere about it. 00:18:13.410 --> 00:18:17.260 align:middle line:84% And if you are, then I think that you can portray yourself 00:18:17.260 --> 00:18:21.480 align:middle line:84% in that persona that has nothing to do with the way you see it 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.670 align:middle line:84% yourself or the way others, your best friend, 00:18:23.670 --> 00:18:26.280 align:middle line:90% sees you, and just do that job. 00:18:26.280 --> 00:18:29.200 align:middle line:90% 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.710 align:middle line:84% I think that those are the issues. 00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:35.830 align:middle line:84% And they work themselves around ethically 00:18:35.830 --> 00:18:41.200 align:middle line:84% in the mind of the person who is taking the interview, 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:44.260 align:middle line:84% whether or not they are really using somebody else-- 00:18:44.260 --> 00:18:46.712 align:middle line:84% you don't know-- and whether or not 00:18:46.712 --> 00:18:47.920 align:middle line:90% they can keep up the persona. 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.940 align:middle line:90% 00:18:50.940 --> 00:18:56.460 align:middle line:84% And the two issues then are-- the last one is the contract, 00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:59.575 align:middle line:84% and the first one is respect for persons. 00:18:59.575 --> 00:19:02.310 align:middle line:90% 00:19:02.310 --> 00:19:08.445 align:middle line:84% So therefore, if I had to make this argument in a situation 00:19:08.445 --> 00:19:09.195 align:middle line:90% where it counted-- 00:19:09.195 --> 00:19:11.940 align:middle line:90% 00:19:11.940 --> 00:19:16.110 align:middle line:84% let's say, for example, I'm being interviewed 00:19:16.110 --> 00:19:21.840 align:middle line:90% by a judge in the Enron case. 00:19:21.840 --> 00:19:24.090 align:middle line:90% That's a good one. 00:19:24.090 --> 00:19:27.930 align:middle line:84% And the judge wants to know my opinions about this matter. 00:19:27.930 --> 00:19:30.450 align:middle line:84% Well, the judge is not going to be very impressed if I'm 00:19:30.450 --> 00:19:32.730 align:middle line:90% giving my personal opinions. 00:19:32.730 --> 00:19:34.200 align:middle line:84% The judge is going to be impressed 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:40.233 align:middle line:84% if I start grounding my opinions in good ethical theory. 00:19:40.233 --> 00:19:41.400 align:middle line:90% And I've just done it twice. 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.690 align:middle line:90% We have just done it twice. 00:19:44.690 --> 00:19:47.680 align:middle line:84% So that's the way I thought about that one. 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:51.770 align:middle line:90% My wife gave me approval. 00:19:51.770 --> 00:19:56.540 align:middle line:84% Another one is Joel wrote me this note, 00:19:56.540 --> 00:19:59.720 align:middle line:84% and it picked up from the last class. 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:01.160 align:middle line:90% Oh, are we done with this one? 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:05.040 align:middle line:90% 00:20:05.040 --> 00:20:10.772 align:middle line:84% I really apologize if I switch subjects too fast. 00:20:10.772 --> 00:20:12.230 align:middle line:84% Somebody else has something to say. 00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:15.770 align:middle line:90% 00:20:15.770 --> 00:20:20.210 align:middle line:84% And that had to do with the discussion 00:20:20.210 --> 00:20:27.470 align:middle line:84% we had last time, where I made a statement that engineering was 00:20:27.470 --> 00:20:30.446 align:middle line:90% a regal [INAUDIBLE] discipline. 00:20:30.446 --> 00:20:33.080 align:middle line:90% 00:20:33.080 --> 00:20:37.400 align:middle line:84% And Joel wanted to make a remark that it's really 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:43.820 align:middle line:90% aristocratic in its nature. 00:20:43.820 --> 00:20:45.710 align:middle line:84% And he and I've discussed this before. 00:20:45.710 --> 00:20:55.130 align:middle line:84% And where we agree is that engineering has never been 00:20:55.130 --> 00:21:00.800 align:middle line:84% done, and cannot be done, outside of the context 00:21:00.800 --> 00:21:02.282 align:middle line:90% of authority and power. 00:21:02.282 --> 00:21:03.740 align:middle line:84% You don't go out and build a bridge 00:21:03.740 --> 00:21:05.603 align:middle line:90% because you think it's cute. 00:21:05.603 --> 00:21:06.770 align:middle line:90% I think I'll build a bridge. 00:21:06.770 --> 00:21:10.790 align:middle line:90% 00:21:10.790 --> 00:21:16.790 align:middle line:84% Engineering has always been done under the auspices, 00:21:16.790 --> 00:21:23.110 align:middle line:84% or under the control, to some extent, of kings 00:21:23.110 --> 00:21:25.960 align:middle line:84% and high priests, local populations getting 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:30.490 align:middle line:84% involved as a brand new issue for us, as we 00:21:30.490 --> 00:21:31.900 align:middle line:90% went through last time. 00:21:31.900 --> 00:21:35.680 align:middle line:84% And I remember the name out of Denmark-- 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:41.940 align:middle line:84% they call it technology shops, where a local citizen group can 00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:47.730 align:middle line:84% go to a place and get technological advice about how 00:21:47.730 --> 00:21:51.590 align:middle line:84% to participate effectively in public decision making. 00:21:51.590 --> 00:21:54.370 align:middle line:90% 00:21:54.370 --> 00:21:56.760 align:middle line:84% So the city wants to build a nuclear waste 00:21:56.760 --> 00:22:01.830 align:middle line:84% dump in your backyard, not in mine, 00:22:01.830 --> 00:22:03.570 align:middle line:84% and the city has-- the city engineer 00:22:03.570 --> 00:22:06.840 align:middle line:84% comes up with all of these explanations as to why 00:22:06.840 --> 00:22:09.930 align:middle line:84% we want to put it behind yours and not behind mine. 00:22:09.930 --> 00:22:12.210 align:middle line:84% Then you can go to these technology shops 00:22:12.210 --> 00:22:15.420 align:middle line:84% and get an engineer to help you build your case. 00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:19.110 align:middle line:90% 00:22:19.110 --> 00:22:20.520 align:middle line:90% But that's brand new. 00:22:20.520 --> 00:22:21.700 align:middle line:90% We want to think about that. 00:22:21.700 --> 00:22:24.690 align:middle line:84% And so here's the way I thought about responding to that. 00:22:24.690 --> 00:22:28.560 align:middle line:84% I need to give him some email, but it really didn't come to me 00:22:28.560 --> 00:22:31.790 align:middle line:90% until last night about 10:00. 00:22:31.790 --> 00:22:34.720 align:middle line:84% I stayed up until 1:00 until I thought it through. 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:39.370 align:middle line:84% And thinking it through really meant finding a concise way 00:22:39.370 --> 00:22:40.480 align:middle line:90% to put it to the class. 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.147 align:middle line:84% Because it's in my book and I've already 00:22:42.147 --> 00:22:45.742 align:middle line:90% written 200 pages on this. 00:22:45.742 --> 00:22:47.700 align:middle line:84% So I'm going to see how it works, if I can just 00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:50.710 align:middle line:90% do it with a few bullets. 00:22:50.710 --> 00:22:51.340 align:middle line:90% Ready? 00:22:51.340 --> 00:22:52.430 align:middle line:90% Let's try. 00:22:52.430 --> 00:22:52.930 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:22:52.930 --> 00:22:55.060 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Can I ask a clarifying question first? 00:22:55.060 --> 00:22:56.560 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:22:56.560 --> 00:23:00.910 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So the dispute or the conflict, you're saying 00:23:00.910 --> 00:23:03.748 align:middle line:84% is regal, and Joel is saying it's aristocratic. 00:23:03.748 --> 00:23:04.540 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:23:04.540 --> 00:23:08.360 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And can you put that in other terms? 00:23:08.360 --> 00:23:10.720 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Let me put it in my terms first, 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:11.710 align:middle line:90% and lay out a logic. 00:23:11.710 --> 00:23:14.488 align:middle line:84% And then we'll put it in Joel's terms if he doesn't come-- 00:23:14.488 --> 00:23:16.030 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I just wanted to understand 00:23:16.030 --> 00:23:17.710 align:middle line:90% where the concept was. 00:23:17.710 --> 00:23:19.900 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Let's see it after I lay one out 00:23:19.900 --> 00:23:24.220 align:middle line:84% because this is kind of thinking that you 00:23:24.220 --> 00:23:26.982 align:middle line:90% won't see in any textbooks yet. 00:23:26.982 --> 00:23:28.690 align:middle line:84% But I think that's what a class like this 00:23:28.690 --> 00:23:31.315 align:middle line:84% is about, particularly when you have faculty members sitting in 00:23:31.315 --> 00:23:32.560 align:middle line:90% on the class. 00:23:32.560 --> 00:23:37.110 align:middle line:84% You get more out of it this way, I think. 00:23:37.110 --> 00:23:42.490 align:middle line:84% My starting point for answering this question 00:23:42.490 --> 00:23:47.620 align:middle line:84% was one of the biggest problems I had in writing this book. 00:23:47.620 --> 00:23:50.140 align:middle line:84% Actually, it was in how to set up the book, 00:23:50.140 --> 00:23:55.300 align:middle line:84% how to organize it, how to organize 14 chapters. 00:23:55.300 --> 00:24:01.770 align:middle line:84% And what I had to do was do what Jacob Bronowski said to do. 00:24:01.770 --> 00:24:04.330 align:middle line:84% I don't know if you all know him, but you don't have to. 00:24:04.330 --> 00:24:06.400 align:middle line:84% He worked in the Manhattan Project. 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:09.280 align:middle line:84% He had a good TV program and a book 00:24:09.280 --> 00:24:16.650 align:middle line:84% called The Ascent of Man, which if you recall, 00:24:16.650 --> 00:24:19.010 align:middle line:90% is a mirror image of-- 00:24:19.010 --> 00:24:24.610 align:middle line:90% 00:24:24.610 --> 00:24:26.270 align:middle line:90% I'll tell you the book's name-- 00:24:26.270 --> 00:24:28.366 align:middle line:90% The Descent of Man. 00:24:28.366 --> 00:24:29.330 align:middle line:90% Remember who wrote it? 00:24:29.330 --> 00:24:32.205 align:middle line:90% 00:24:32.205 --> 00:24:32.830 align:middle line:90% Charles Darwin. 00:24:32.830 --> 00:24:35.400 align:middle line:90% 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:41.220 align:middle line:84% And what he said was that all the people 00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:44.580 align:middle line:84% he knew that made really important contributions 00:24:44.580 --> 00:24:46.980 align:middle line:84% to science started off by asking what he 00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:48.495 align:middle line:90% called an impertinent question. 00:24:48.495 --> 00:24:51.150 align:middle line:90% 00:24:51.150 --> 00:24:54.530 align:middle line:84% So I'm going to ask an impertinent question. 00:24:54.530 --> 00:25:00.710 align:middle line:84% And the impertinent question is, is engineering, 00:25:00.710 --> 00:25:05.810 align:middle line:84% the learned discipline, independent of engineers 00:25:05.810 --> 00:25:08.788 align:middle line:90% and what engineers think and do? 00:25:08.788 --> 00:25:11.690 align:middle line:84% And you know that can't be true, right? 00:25:11.690 --> 00:25:12.690 align:middle line:90% I called it impertinent. 00:25:12.690 --> 00:25:13.523 align:middle line:90% Let's start with it. 00:25:13.523 --> 00:25:15.990 align:middle line:84% Is there something about engineering 00:25:15.990 --> 00:25:25.570 align:middle line:84% that is distinct from what engineers think and do? 00:25:25.570 --> 00:25:29.020 align:middle line:84% Now, let me bring up one point, maybe two. 00:25:29.020 --> 00:25:33.240 align:middle line:90% 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:38.400 align:middle line:84% Scientists in the Manhattan Project were not doing science. 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:40.054 align:middle line:90% They were doing engineering. 00:25:40.054 --> 00:25:43.690 align:middle line:90% 00:25:43.690 --> 00:25:45.440 align:middle line:84% So therefore, there's a difference. 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.690 align:middle line:84% So the scientists, one could say-- 00:25:49.690 --> 00:25:52.143 align:middle line:84% what scientists were thinking about and doing 00:25:52.143 --> 00:25:52.810 align:middle line:90% was not science. 00:25:52.810 --> 00:25:57.470 align:middle line:90% 00:25:57.470 --> 00:26:01.220 align:middle line:90% Do engineers ever do science? 00:26:01.220 --> 00:26:09.980 align:middle line:84% But I think the invention of thermodynamics was done 00:26:09.980 --> 00:26:14.870 align:middle line:84% by engineers, but they really weren't-- 00:26:14.870 --> 00:26:18.860 align:middle line:84% they started out doing herky jerky engineering 00:26:18.860 --> 00:26:19.820 align:middle line:90% on thermodynamics. 00:26:19.820 --> 00:26:24.680 align:middle line:84% But at the end, they were doing science. 00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:29.900 align:middle line:84% So what I want to say to Joel and to you all is that you 00:26:29.900 --> 00:26:34.250 align:middle line:84% cannot deduce what engineering is by observing and talking 00:26:34.250 --> 00:26:36.900 align:middle line:90% to engineers. 00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:39.005 align:middle line:90% There's something else. 00:26:39.005 --> 00:26:40.380 align:middle line:84% Now, why is there something else? 00:26:40.380 --> 00:26:41.460 align:middle line:90% Why is there this gap? 00:26:41.460 --> 00:26:44.350 align:middle line:84% Can I make sense out of what I just said? 00:26:44.350 --> 00:26:48.400 align:middle line:84% Yes, because what engineers think about 00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:50.200 align:middle line:84% is divided between their conscious minds 00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:51.400 align:middle line:90% and their unconscious minds. 00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:54.620 align:middle line:90% 00:26:54.620 --> 00:26:57.650 align:middle line:84% And so to find out what engineering really is, 00:26:57.650 --> 00:27:02.480 align:middle line:84% you have to somehow get it out of both what they say and do. 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:07.670 align:middle line:84% And some things that they don't say and don't do, 00:27:07.670 --> 00:27:10.972 align:middle line:84% you have to look down and get the unconscious dimension. 00:27:10.972 --> 00:27:12.680 align:middle line:84% Now, that sounds like an impossible thing 00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:17.810 align:middle line:84% for anybody other than a clinical psychologist. 00:27:17.810 --> 00:27:19.620 align:middle line:84% No, there are other ways to do it. 00:27:19.620 --> 00:27:22.160 align:middle line:84% And here's one way to do it, and I'm 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:26.000 align:middle line:84% going to have some special lectures from some faculty come 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:27.290 align:middle line:90% in and talk about this. 00:27:27.290 --> 00:27:30.170 align:middle line:84% Already got this arranged, just have to settle on the date. 00:27:30.170 --> 00:27:33.830 align:middle line:84% And that is that you can get the unconscious dimension out 00:27:33.830 --> 00:27:36.890 align:middle line:84% of what somebody thinks by having them write it 00:27:36.890 --> 00:27:40.230 align:middle line:90% down in a story. 00:27:40.230 --> 00:27:43.440 align:middle line:84% Because the story won't make sense unless their unconscious 00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:44.070 align:middle line:90% plays a role. 00:27:44.070 --> 00:27:47.380 align:middle line:90% 00:27:47.380 --> 00:27:54.690 align:middle line:84% And so what you can do is take a learned work of engineering-- 00:27:54.690 --> 00:28:03.270 align:middle line:84% a book, a research paper, a laboratory demonstration-- 00:28:03.270 --> 00:28:06.660 align:middle line:84% what you can do is look at that book or that research paper, 00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:10.890 align:middle line:90% and organize it in story terms. 00:28:10.890 --> 00:28:15.280 align:middle line:84% And that's one of the things we had talked about already. 00:28:15.280 --> 00:28:20.430 align:middle line:84% And so what I want to do is to talk about engineering 00:28:20.430 --> 00:28:22.830 align:middle line:90% in story terms. 00:28:22.830 --> 00:28:27.360 align:middle line:84% And what makes one discipline different from another 00:28:27.360 --> 00:28:28.590 align:middle line:90% is chiefly-- 00:28:28.590 --> 00:28:30.720 align:middle line:90% this is my argument in my book-- 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:36.240 align:middle line:84% is chiefly the story term that we call the point of view. 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:39.540 align:middle line:84% Because I can take one document and put it here, and look at it 00:28:39.540 --> 00:28:42.520 align:middle line:84% from an engineering point of view, 00:28:42.520 --> 00:28:46.140 align:middle line:84% and get a whole different interpretation, 00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:49.560 align:middle line:84% or another point from looking at it 00:28:49.560 --> 00:28:55.440 align:middle line:84% from a scientific and ethical, or a musician's point. 00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:58.350 align:middle line:90% 00:28:58.350 --> 00:29:02.650 align:middle line:84% Now this is the last piece of the argument-- 00:29:02.650 --> 00:29:07.310 align:middle line:84% remember, I'm distilling out of 200 pages-- 00:29:07.310 --> 00:29:08.960 align:middle line:84% the last piece of the argument is 00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:18.050 align:middle line:84% that I claim, I stand on this point, 00:29:18.050 --> 00:29:21.350 align:middle line:84% that the learned disciplines don't 00:29:21.350 --> 00:29:23.240 align:middle line:90% have but three points of view. 00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:26.640 align:middle line:90% 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.370 align:middle line:84% They are the points of view of social order. 00:29:29.370 --> 00:29:32.540 align:middle line:90% 00:29:32.540 --> 00:29:38.120 align:middle line:84% That if you want to read ethics from the standpoint 00:29:38.120 --> 00:29:42.590 align:middle line:84% of Greek philosophy, if you want to read science the way 00:29:42.590 --> 00:29:49.050 align:middle line:84% Aristotle would read it and the way most Westerners read it, 00:29:49.050 --> 00:29:54.150 align:middle line:84% then the point of view is a person like Socrates who's 00:29:54.150 --> 00:29:58.410 align:middle line:90% looking at doing two things-- 00:29:58.410 --> 00:30:05.100 align:middle line:84% number one, he is accommodating the individual to Nature. 00:30:05.100 --> 00:30:08.430 align:middle line:84% What you're saying there is that Nature is what it is. 00:30:08.430 --> 00:30:14.250 align:middle line:84% And I want to find out how I fit with it, that is, find truth. 00:30:14.250 --> 00:30:17.490 align:middle line:84% And the second thing is to accommodate society 00:30:17.490 --> 00:30:19.530 align:middle line:90% to the individual. 00:30:19.530 --> 00:30:22.830 align:middle line:84% Society is no better, can be no better, 00:30:22.830 --> 00:30:27.690 align:middle line:84% than its worst treatment of the individual. 00:30:27.690 --> 00:30:32.130 align:middle line:84% The individual is the unit of analysis. 00:30:32.130 --> 00:30:36.270 align:middle line:84% The Greek concept of ethics is that there's 00:30:36.270 --> 00:30:40.710 align:middle line:84% only one moral agent, only one being that 00:30:40.710 --> 00:30:45.570 align:middle line:84% can make an ethical choice, and that's an individual, not 00:30:45.570 --> 00:30:47.910 align:middle line:90% a corporation. 00:30:47.910 --> 00:30:53.160 align:middle line:84% The notion of a corporation having personhood in law 00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:56.070 align:middle line:84% comes out of the Latin tradition, not out 00:30:56.070 --> 00:30:56.670 align:middle line:90% of the Greek. 00:30:56.670 --> 00:30:59.240 align:middle line:90% 00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:05.180 align:middle line:84% So it comes out of looking at society from a regal point 00:31:05.180 --> 00:31:09.410 align:middle line:84% of view, which is a point of view where you do not 00:31:09.410 --> 00:31:12.950 align:middle line:84% accommodate society to the individual, 00:31:12.950 --> 00:31:17.905 align:middle line:84% you accommodate the individual and Nature to society. 00:31:17.905 --> 00:31:19.280 align:middle line:84% And when I say accommodate Nature 00:31:19.280 --> 00:31:21.590 align:middle line:84% to society, what I'm talking about 00:31:21.590 --> 00:31:30.310 align:middle line:84% is if you want to cross that river, 00:31:30.310 --> 00:31:33.310 align:middle line:84% and Nature does not have a bridge for you, 00:31:33.310 --> 00:31:36.070 align:middle line:84% then you accommodate Nature to the will of society. 00:31:36.070 --> 00:31:36.940 align:middle line:90% You build a bridge. 00:31:36.940 --> 00:31:41.810 align:middle line:90% 00:31:41.810 --> 00:31:46.160 align:middle line:84% And the third point of view when you look at something, 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:49.310 align:middle line:84% a learned document-- you'll catch up-- 00:31:49.310 --> 00:31:56.660 align:middle line:84% is to look at it in a way where you accommodate the individual 00:31:56.660 --> 00:32:02.960 align:middle line:84% and society to Nature, to a higher cause. 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:06.990 align:middle line:90% 00:32:06.990 --> 00:32:10.770 align:middle line:84% So when I say that engineering is regal, 00:32:10.770 --> 00:32:13.770 align:middle line:84% what I'm really saying is that if you pick up 00:32:13.770 --> 00:32:16.230 align:middle line:84% a learned document and you want to look 00:32:16.230 --> 00:32:19.860 align:middle line:84% at it from an engineering point of view, one of the things-- 00:32:19.860 --> 00:32:24.870 align:middle line:84% I haven't gone through all of the other story terms. 00:32:24.870 --> 00:32:28.470 align:middle line:84% I'm looking at only one right now, the main one. 00:32:28.470 --> 00:32:32.190 align:middle line:84% If you look at it from a regal point of view, 00:32:32.190 --> 00:32:35.432 align:middle line:84% then I claim that you will look at it the way 00:32:35.432 --> 00:32:37.890 align:middle line:84% that engineers look at it on both conscious and unconscious 00:32:37.890 --> 00:32:38.390 align:middle line:90% levels. 00:32:38.390 --> 00:32:41.930 align:middle line:90% 00:32:41.930 --> 00:32:43.920 align:middle line:84% Now, how does that work out with aristocratic? 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:49.850 align:middle line:84% Well, if you look at societies over time from the beginning, 00:32:49.850 --> 00:32:58.580 align:middle line:84% I think we're talking when human beings settled, began 00:32:58.580 --> 00:33:03.230 align:middle line:84% living a settled life in the Fertile Crescent, 00:33:03.230 --> 00:33:08.300 align:middle line:84% even from that point of view, that what you'll see 00:33:08.300 --> 00:33:12.450 align:middle line:84% is all three of these principles at work, 00:33:12.450 --> 00:33:18.045 align:middle line:84% and that when they started building irrigation systems, 00:33:18.045 --> 00:33:21.440 align:middle line:84% you'll see that they've built them from point 00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:22.860 align:middle line:90% of view of authority. 00:33:22.860 --> 00:33:26.290 align:middle line:90% 00:33:26.290 --> 00:33:34.630 align:middle line:84% And if for no other reason than you cannot build a bridge four 00:33:34.630 --> 00:33:36.850 align:middle line:90% different correct ways. 00:33:36.850 --> 00:33:40.010 align:middle line:90% 00:33:40.010 --> 00:33:42.950 align:middle line:84% If all of us have correct ways of building 00:33:42.950 --> 00:33:46.730 align:middle line:84% a bridge across that river, and those correct ways 00:33:46.730 --> 00:33:49.933 align:middle line:84% are different, we'll never get it built. 00:33:49.933 --> 00:33:51.350 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: There has to be someone. 00:33:51.350 --> 00:33:53.690 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: There has to be an authority, that's right, 00:33:53.690 --> 00:33:57.860 align:middle line:84% a higher authority than any of the four of us, 00:33:57.860 --> 00:34:03.380 align:middle line:84% that says we'll build it his way and not yours, mine, or his. 00:34:03.380 --> 00:34:08.110 align:middle line:84% You don't operate like that, with a [INAUDIBLE].. 00:34:08.110 --> 00:34:13.489 align:middle line:90% 00:34:13.489 --> 00:34:16.159 align:middle line:84% Let's clean up any loose ends that we 00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:18.590 align:middle line:90% have with the Challenger. 00:34:18.590 --> 00:34:24.199 align:middle line:84% Ta-da-- Washington Post, Wednesday, August 27, 2003. 00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:27.320 align:middle line:84% The headline is "Report blames flawed NASA culture 00:34:27.320 --> 00:34:30.050 align:middle line:90% for tragedy." 00:34:30.050 --> 00:34:31.239 align:middle line:90% So I'll pass this around. 00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:34.710 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: That's from the [INAUDIBLE],, right? 00:34:34.710 --> 00:34:37.150 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:34:37.150 --> 00:34:40.772 align:middle line:84% So you can write down that reference. 00:34:40.772 --> 00:34:43.230 align:middle line:84% Well, I tell you what-- you can hold onto that if you want. 00:34:43.230 --> 00:34:45.210 align:middle line:90% Just bring it back. 00:34:45.210 --> 00:34:45.866 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:34:45.866 --> 00:34:46.699 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: That's OK. 00:34:46.699 --> 00:34:50.340 align:middle line:90% We can find it online and then-- 00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:52.760 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah, download it. 00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:55.618 align:middle line:84% So any loose ends with the Challenger discussion? 00:34:55.618 --> 00:35:01.845 align:middle line:90% 00:35:01.845 --> 00:35:04.580 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think part of thing we do-- 00:35:04.580 --> 00:35:06.670 align:middle line:84% maybe there's no answer, but we talked about-- 00:35:06.670 --> 00:35:09.272 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: There will be an answer. 00:35:09.272 --> 00:35:11.150 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Are there differences, and is 00:35:11.150 --> 00:35:14.190 align:middle line:84% the problem with behaviors of management 00:35:14.190 --> 00:35:16.190 align:middle line:90% as opposed to the engineers? 00:35:16.190 --> 00:35:18.037 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:35:18.037 --> 00:35:20.370 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I was doing a little more reading in the book, 00:35:20.370 --> 00:35:23.158 align:middle line:84% and it discussed [INAUDIBLE] interesting. 00:35:23.158 --> 00:35:25.200 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, did you come up with anything? 00:35:25.200 --> 00:35:30.780 align:middle line:90% 00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:33.390 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: We went-- what the reading talks about 00:35:33.390 --> 00:35:38.925 align:middle line:84% is dividing decisions between managers and engineers, 00:35:38.925 --> 00:35:43.200 align:middle line:84% such that managers are responsible for thinking 00:35:43.200 --> 00:35:45.920 align:middle line:84% about the well-being of the company, the organization. 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:48.670 align:middle line:84% So that involves costs and profits. 00:35:48.670 --> 00:35:53.770 align:middle line:84% And engineers are responsible for the technical expertise 00:35:53.770 --> 00:35:56.890 align:middle line:84% and the well-being of the clients and the public. 00:35:56.890 --> 00:36:01.760 align:middle line:84% And it's debatable whether it's clients, or public, or both. 00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:07.780 align:middle line:84% And so there's always pushback between those two 00:36:07.780 --> 00:36:09.920 align:middle line:84% kinds of decision making, which is a good thing. 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:13.630 align:middle line:84% So the managers are expecting the engineers will always 00:36:13.630 --> 00:36:15.200 align:middle line:90% err on the side of safety. 00:36:15.200 --> 00:36:18.250 align:middle line:84% So when they propose cuts in safety, 00:36:18.250 --> 00:36:20.590 align:middle line:84% the engineers will push back on them, 00:36:20.590 --> 00:36:24.460 align:middle line:84% and the engineers are supposing that the managers will always 00:36:24.460 --> 00:36:25.420 align:middle line:90% want to cut costs. 00:36:25.420 --> 00:36:30.590 align:middle line:84% So they'll make sure that they think about safety. 00:36:30.590 --> 00:36:32.302 align:middle line:90% Is that what you were thinking? 00:36:32.302 --> 00:36:33.510 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: That's what I read. 00:36:33.510 --> 00:36:34.552 align:middle line:90% That's what I understand. 00:36:34.552 --> 00:36:36.660 align:middle line:84% I'm not sure that I necessarily disagree. 00:36:36.660 --> 00:36:38.670 align:middle line:84% But from someone who doesn't have 00:36:38.670 --> 00:36:41.160 align:middle line:84% a very extensive background in ethics, 00:36:41.160 --> 00:36:45.190 align:middle line:84% is that OK to have two different groups operating 00:36:45.190 --> 00:36:47.230 align:middle line:84% on such different ethical principles like that? 00:36:47.230 --> 00:36:51.010 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, yeah, I mean, that's unavoidable. 00:36:51.010 --> 00:36:53.650 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Even if it's within an organization [INAUDIBLE]?? 00:36:53.650 --> 00:36:54.730 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:36:54.730 --> 00:36:57.340 align:middle line:84% Now here's where you get what I was talking about, 00:36:57.340 --> 00:36:59.740 align:middle line:84% this question about the unconscious. 00:36:59.740 --> 00:37:03.725 align:middle line:84% Because you're going to get some conflict in what people 00:37:03.725 --> 00:37:04.225 align:middle line:90% will say. 00:37:04.225 --> 00:37:09.840 align:middle line:90% 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:13.860 align:middle line:84% I think it's right for me to say that 100% of the engineering 00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:19.600 align:middle line:84% managers that I have known and read about 00:37:19.600 --> 00:37:21.710 align:middle line:90% do not make a distinction. 00:37:21.710 --> 00:37:23.420 align:middle line:90% All call themselves engineers. 00:37:23.420 --> 00:37:26.860 align:middle line:90% 00:37:26.860 --> 00:37:31.810 align:middle line:84% I will say something around 50% of the engineers 00:37:31.810 --> 00:37:34.420 align:middle line:84% will say that they are engineers, 00:37:34.420 --> 00:37:40.000 align:middle line:84% and 50% say that they are not engineers. 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:50.470 align:middle line:84% This debate came to a head about 10 or 12 years ago with 00:37:50.470 --> 00:37:55.810 align:middle line:84% accreditation, with A-B-E-T, ABET. 00:37:55.810 --> 00:38:04.830 align:middle line:84% Because there was this argument that engineers 00:38:04.830 --> 00:38:10.170 align:middle line:84% become engineering managers, and the argument was based on data. 00:38:10.170 --> 00:38:14.130 align:middle line:84% Two out of three persons who are engineers 00:38:14.130 --> 00:38:17.703 align:middle line:84% will become or wind up in a job description that 00:38:17.703 --> 00:38:18.870 align:middle line:90% says engineering management. 00:38:18.870 --> 00:38:21.730 align:middle line:84% That's what you do when you call going up. 00:38:21.730 --> 00:38:25.170 align:middle line:84% There is this other line, which they call line engineer, which 00:38:25.170 --> 00:38:32.130 align:middle line:84% remains a hard-core engineer for all of his or her career. 00:38:32.130 --> 00:38:36.450 align:middle line:84% But that, they say, is about one-third, 00:38:36.450 --> 00:38:39.660 align:middle line:84% and even that's debatable because most of them 00:38:39.660 --> 00:38:41.850 align:middle line:84% have somebody, engineer working under them. 00:38:41.850 --> 00:38:44.500 align:middle line:90% 00:38:44.500 --> 00:38:49.510 align:middle line:84% There's an analogy in universities between faculty 00:38:49.510 --> 00:38:52.030 align:middle line:90% and administration. 00:38:52.030 --> 00:38:54.710 align:middle line:90% And there's this book-- 00:38:54.710 --> 00:38:56.980 align:middle line:84% I can't remember the name of it right now. 00:38:56.980 --> 00:38:58.360 align:middle line:90% I will figure it out. 00:38:58.360 --> 00:38:59.665 align:middle line:90% I think it's the book called-- 00:38:59.665 --> 00:39:06.850 align:middle line:90% 00:39:06.850 --> 00:39:13.000 align:middle line:84% well, I'll get it out before the end of this discussion-- 00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:17.210 align:middle line:84% where the author point says, what 00:39:17.210 --> 00:39:19.610 align:middle line:90% is everybody talking about? 00:39:19.610 --> 00:39:22.940 align:middle line:84% The administration president versus the faculty-- 00:39:22.940 --> 00:39:24.170 align:middle line:90% what are you talking about? 00:39:24.170 --> 00:39:26.030 align:middle line:84% I don't know what people are talking about. 00:39:26.030 --> 00:39:27.860 align:middle line:90% They are all professors. 00:39:27.860 --> 00:39:29.720 align:middle line:90% They've all got PhDs. 00:39:29.720 --> 00:39:31.040 align:middle line:90% They all taught at one time. 00:39:31.040 --> 00:39:33.680 align:middle line:84% They all did research at one time. 00:39:33.680 --> 00:39:37.160 align:middle line:90% You're splitting a hair. 00:39:37.160 --> 00:39:40.670 align:middle line:84% So there is this issue that goes on, not just in engineering, 00:39:40.670 --> 00:39:42.480 align:middle line:90% but other places. 00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:45.650 align:middle line:84% And it comes out in the end, I think, 00:39:45.650 --> 00:39:52.010 align:middle line:84% that in organizations there is a line that's drawn. 00:39:52.010 --> 00:39:55.820 align:middle line:84% And the line is drawn between persons 00:39:55.820 --> 00:39:57.560 align:middle line:84% who are in engineering or management 00:39:57.560 --> 00:40:02.930 align:middle line:84% and persons who are in the line profession. 00:40:02.930 --> 00:40:07.840 align:middle line:84% And it varies from institution to institution. 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:11.470 align:middle line:84% In the universities, my university-- well, 00:40:11.470 --> 00:40:15.250 align:middle line:84% my other university, Howard University-- 00:40:15.250 --> 00:40:17.260 align:middle line:90% is pretty much typical. 00:40:17.260 --> 00:40:22.780 align:middle line:84% The department chairs will be categorized pretty much 00:40:22.780 --> 00:40:26.600 align:middle line:84% as faculty because in most institutions, 00:40:26.600 --> 00:40:29.060 align:middle line:84% the department chair can be fired by either administration 00:40:29.060 --> 00:40:29.560 align:middle line:90% or faculty. 00:40:29.560 --> 00:40:32.990 align:middle line:90% 00:40:32.990 --> 00:40:38.040 align:middle line:84% But deans are on the side of the administration. 00:40:38.040 --> 00:40:40.160 align:middle line:84% And so I think the ethical issue comes 00:40:40.160 --> 00:40:45.750 align:middle line:84% in with this question, again, of contract. 00:40:45.750 --> 00:40:48.030 align:middle line:90% What am I contracted to do? 00:40:48.030 --> 00:40:50.400 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Who am I primarily responsible for? 00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:51.810 align:middle line:90% Who or what? 00:40:51.810 --> 00:40:54.589 align:middle line:84% The student or the health department. 00:40:54.589 --> 00:40:56.381 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: You know what bothered me though? 00:40:56.381 --> 00:40:57.930 align:middle line:84% This has bothered me-- the problem. 00:40:57.930 --> 00:41:02.430 align:middle line:84% If you said that engineering is this regal discipline, 00:41:02.430 --> 00:41:04.770 align:middle line:84% and [INAUDIBLE] come from some authority, 00:41:04.770 --> 00:41:06.943 align:middle line:84% it seems like the authority's ethics. 00:41:06.943 --> 00:41:08.610 align:middle line:84% They're the ones who really, at the end, 00:41:08.610 --> 00:41:10.320 align:middle line:84% say this is going to go, this isn't going to go. 00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:11.040 align:middle line:90% You do this. 00:41:11.040 --> 00:41:12.550 align:middle line:84% But it bothers me that their ethics 00:41:12.550 --> 00:41:15.325 align:middle line:84% aren't grounded in something somewhat tied 00:41:15.325 --> 00:41:16.950 align:middle line:84% to what the engineers are doing, namely 00:41:16.950 --> 00:41:18.900 align:middle line:90% safety and things like that. 00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:21.150 align:middle line:84% It seems like they need to have some component of that 00:41:21.150 --> 00:41:22.452 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE]. 00:41:22.452 --> 00:41:24.410 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Wait, why are you saying their ethics 00:41:24.410 --> 00:41:26.128 align:middle line:90% aren't grounded in-- 00:41:26.128 --> 00:41:28.670 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because we just say people in management positions, 00:41:28.670 --> 00:41:29.810 align:middle line:90% and I'm assuming. 00:41:29.810 --> 00:41:32.090 align:middle line:84% I put authority in that category. 00:41:32.090 --> 00:41:34.430 align:middle line:84% I'm pretty much concerned-- they are the bottom line. 00:41:34.430 --> 00:41:35.513 align:middle line:90% They don't care. 00:41:35.513 --> 00:41:36.930 align:middle line:84% They just want this project to go. 00:41:36.930 --> 00:41:38.600 align:middle line:84% They want this thing to make money. 00:41:38.600 --> 00:41:43.710 align:middle line:84% But I just think [INAUDIBLE] you need to be as safe as-- 00:41:43.710 --> 00:41:45.178 align:middle line:90% I guess you can't [INAUDIBLE]. 00:41:45.178 --> 00:41:46.470 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Well, no, you can. 00:41:46.470 --> 00:41:52.500 align:middle line:84% I think the times have changed-- let me put it this way. 00:41:52.500 --> 00:41:54.855 align:middle line:84% I think that there was a time when-- 00:41:54.855 --> 00:41:58.080 align:middle line:90% 00:41:58.080 --> 00:42:00.060 align:middle line:90% let me back up just a minute. 00:42:00.060 --> 00:42:03.180 align:middle line:84% I don't want my book and my theories 00:42:03.180 --> 00:42:05.310 align:middle line:84% about engineering to be the dominant position 00:42:05.310 --> 00:42:06.000 align:middle line:90% in this class. 00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:09.100 align:middle line:90% 00:42:09.100 --> 00:42:11.550 align:middle line:84% I don't want that to happen because I've got 00:42:11.550 --> 00:42:12.990 align:middle line:90% to assign some other readings. 00:42:12.990 --> 00:42:15.720 align:middle line:84% Point about it when it comes to it, philosophy of engineering, 00:42:15.720 --> 00:42:17.220 align:middle line:84% is there are only a couple of places 00:42:17.220 --> 00:42:19.570 align:middle line:90% you have to do that at all. 00:42:19.570 --> 00:42:24.420 align:middle line:84% So that's where you're getting a unique experience 00:42:24.420 --> 00:42:30.250 align:middle line:84% because nobody else is really talking about this yet. 00:42:30.250 --> 00:42:32.020 align:middle line:84% But I do have one reference down there, 00:42:32.020 --> 00:42:37.750 align:middle line:84% Billy Vaughn Koen's book called Discussion of the Method. 00:42:37.750 --> 00:42:41.375 align:middle line:84% There's probably-- and another one, one other one. 00:42:41.375 --> 00:42:43.000 align:middle line:84% It's called What Engineers Know and How 00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:45.460 align:middle line:84% They Know It, written by a man named 00:42:45.460 --> 00:42:47.320 align:middle line:90% Walter Vincenti from Stanford. 00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:49.750 align:middle line:90% He retired several years ago. 00:42:49.750 --> 00:42:52.270 align:middle line:84% Those are about the only two that are out that I really 00:42:52.270 --> 00:42:55.210 align:middle line:84% think go into depth in the philosophical thought 00:42:55.210 --> 00:42:57.610 align:middle line:84% about what engineering is as a learned discipline. 00:42:57.610 --> 00:43:01.222 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Do you consider Florman's work, The Existential 00:43:01.222 --> 00:43:04.265 align:middle line:84% Pleasures of Engineering, as in the category 00:43:04.265 --> 00:43:05.140 align:middle line:90% with those other two? 00:43:05.140 --> 00:43:06.473 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: A lot of people do. 00:43:06.473 --> 00:43:08.260 align:middle line:90% I don't. 00:43:08.260 --> 00:43:12.280 align:middle line:84% Because when you look at Florman's work 00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:16.600 align:middle line:84% and you look to see what he thinks engineering 00:43:16.600 --> 00:43:20.410 align:middle line:84% is as a learned discipline, he's got a short paragraph in there 00:43:20.410 --> 00:43:22.960 align:middle line:90% about two sentences long. 00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:25.360 align:middle line:84% He's going to talk about the nature of the profession. 00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:28.610 align:middle line:90% 00:43:28.610 --> 00:43:30.920 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So the other two books are engineering 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:31.970 align:middle line:90% as a learned discipline. 00:43:31.970 --> 00:43:33.902 align:middle line:84% This one is observations of the professionals. 00:43:33.902 --> 00:43:36.110 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Did you ever read Existential Pleasures? 00:43:36.110 --> 00:43:36.260 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:43:36.260 --> 00:43:38.390 align:middle line:84% That's the only one I've read of all the books 00:43:38.390 --> 00:43:40.900 align:middle line:84% that you've mentioned, so that's why I asked. 00:43:40.900 --> 00:43:43.580 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: What do you think of it? 00:43:43.580 --> 00:43:46.160 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: For me, it mostly served 00:43:46.160 --> 00:43:48.590 align:middle line:84% to be an inspirational book about the engineering 00:43:48.590 --> 00:43:53.410 align:middle line:84% profession, and also informative on the history of engineering. 00:43:53.410 --> 00:43:56.010 align:middle line:90% 00:43:56.010 --> 00:44:02.020 align:middle line:84% It's enjoyable reading and puts forth a vision, a lofty vision, 00:44:02.020 --> 00:44:04.798 align:middle line:90% of engineering, I think. 00:44:04.798 --> 00:44:06.840 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: I think his undergraduate degree was 00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:10.590 align:middle line:84% engineering, but his graduate degree was literature. 00:44:10.590 --> 00:44:15.450 align:middle line:84% And he writes, uses his talents in literature well. 00:44:15.450 --> 00:44:18.660 align:middle line:84% So he talks about Greece, ancient Greece, 00:44:18.660 --> 00:44:20.560 align:middle line:90% and all these things. 00:44:20.560 --> 00:44:27.390 align:middle line:84% And I would say that any engineer of the engineers who 00:44:27.390 --> 00:44:31.260 align:middle line:84% are in the generation older than me, and hardly any are still 00:44:31.260 --> 00:44:39.660 align:middle line:84% around working, but in Sam Florman's generation, 00:44:39.660 --> 00:44:43.740 align:middle line:84% I would say offhand 85% to 95% of engineers 00:44:43.740 --> 00:44:47.030 align:middle line:90% think that he has got it right. 00:44:47.030 --> 00:44:49.360 align:middle line:84% My generation is a little bit different. 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:54.240 align:middle line:84% We were freedom fighters and all of that other stuff, anti-war. 00:44:54.240 --> 00:44:55.740 align:middle line:90% So we're a different generation. 00:44:55.740 --> 00:45:00.600 align:middle line:84% But I was on a panel with Sam Florman once. 00:45:00.600 --> 00:45:08.500 align:middle line:84% And actually, here's what it was-- it was a panel, 00:45:08.500 --> 00:45:11.420 align:middle line:90% but he gave the keynote address. 00:45:11.420 --> 00:45:12.730 align:middle line:90% So he gave the keynote address. 00:45:12.730 --> 00:45:14.920 align:middle line:84% I really wasn't on the panel with him, 00:45:14.920 --> 00:45:16.690 align:middle line:90% but we were there together. 00:45:16.690 --> 00:45:18.473 align:middle line:90% And he got up-- 00:45:18.473 --> 00:45:20.140 align:middle line:84% this was right after he wrote his book-- 00:45:20.140 --> 00:45:23.980 align:middle line:84% and he said that his motivation for writing the book 00:45:23.980 --> 00:45:26.080 align:middle line:90% was his sons. 00:45:26.080 --> 00:45:30.040 align:middle line:84% Said one day his sons told him-- and I don't remember 00:45:30.040 --> 00:45:32.218 align:middle line:84% his exact words, but they were very harsh, 00:45:32.218 --> 00:45:33.760 align:middle line:84% that he and the rest of the engineers 00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:36.280 align:middle line:84% out here were just murdering people. 00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:40.190 align:middle line:84% So he sat down and wrote that book for them. 00:45:40.190 --> 00:45:44.218 align:middle line:84% And so it was an answer of a father to his sons. 00:45:44.218 --> 00:45:45.760 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: That was interesting for me 00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:50.390 align:middle line:84% to learn that in the 1960s and 1970s, 00:45:50.390 --> 00:45:52.900 align:middle line:90% society was anti-technological. 00:45:52.900 --> 00:45:56.560 align:middle line:84% They were out to get engineers that they accused 00:45:56.560 --> 00:45:58.660 align:middle line:90% of polluting the waterways. 00:45:58.660 --> 00:46:01.960 align:middle line:84% I mean, just because we don't hear that message, 00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:03.910 align:middle line:84% or I hadn't heard it before, anyway. 00:46:03.910 --> 00:46:05.560 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, if you're interested in the history 00:46:05.560 --> 00:46:07.893 align:middle line:84% of engineering, I'll tell you what I think is definitely 00:46:07.893 --> 00:46:09.460 align:middle line:90% a most interesting book. 00:46:09.460 --> 00:46:14.500 align:middle line:84% Now, let's not rule out Henry Petroski and David Billington. 00:46:14.500 --> 00:46:16.660 align:middle line:84% But I tell you where I think we should start-- 00:46:16.660 --> 00:46:19.645 align:middle line:84% it's a book called The Revolt of the Engineers. 00:46:19.645 --> 00:46:24.760 align:middle line:90% 00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:27.820 align:middle line:84% And I'll think of this man's name. 00:46:27.820 --> 00:46:31.930 align:middle line:84% I haven't talked to him in 15 years. 00:46:31.930 --> 00:46:33.470 align:middle line:84% It's called Revolt of the Engineers, 00:46:33.470 --> 00:46:37.100 align:middle line:84% and when you get the book, let me suggest the first thing you 00:46:37.100 --> 00:46:42.491 align:middle line:84% do is look in the index for the word technocracy, 00:46:42.491 --> 00:46:43.760 align:middle line:90% the Technocracy Movement. 00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:46.470 align:middle line:90% 00:46:46.470 --> 00:46:48.850 align:middle line:84% And you read that, and you will be compelled 00:46:48.850 --> 00:46:50.940 align:middle line:90% to read rest of that book. 00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:54.510 align:middle line:84% Layton, L-A-Y-T-O-N, Edwin Layton. 00:46:54.510 --> 00:46:58.080 align:middle line:90% 00:46:58.080 --> 00:47:02.497 align:middle line:84% And so if you remember basically what people said was, 00:47:02.497 --> 00:47:04.080 align:middle line:84% well, we live in a technological world 00:47:04.080 --> 00:47:08.048 align:middle line:84% now, so the world ought to be run by engineers. 00:47:08.048 --> 00:47:10.860 align:middle line:90% 00:47:10.860 --> 00:47:14.910 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So what you argue in the editorial, 00:47:14.910 --> 00:47:18.850 align:middle line:84% perhaps, is that engineers need to inform the public, 00:47:18.850 --> 00:47:20.520 align:middle line:90% so the shared running. 00:47:20.520 --> 00:47:22.350 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Shared running, yeah. 00:47:22.350 --> 00:47:26.690 align:middle line:84% I argue straight out in my office preface 00:47:26.690 --> 00:47:32.212 align:middle line:84% that everybody should learn engineering. 00:47:32.212 --> 00:47:33.920 align:middle line:84% But on the other hand-- that's on the one 00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:35.378 align:middle line:84% hand-- on the other hand, engineers 00:47:35.378 --> 00:47:39.383 align:middle line:84% have not proven to be better citizens than anybody else. 00:47:39.383 --> 00:47:41.300 align:middle line:84% So there's something that falls in the middle, 00:47:41.300 --> 00:47:44.090 align:middle line:84% and I call it generalist expertise as opposed 00:47:44.090 --> 00:47:45.620 align:middle line:90% to specialist. 00:47:45.620 --> 00:47:51.890 align:middle line:84% So a specialist expert does not necessarily 00:47:51.890 --> 00:47:53.894 align:middle line:84% possess what I call generalist expertise. 00:47:53.894 --> 00:47:56.760 align:middle line:90% 00:47:56.760 --> 00:47:58.950 align:middle line:84% So that's where I'm going with it. 00:47:58.950 --> 00:48:02.730 align:middle line:84% But you'll find other people who have other points of view. 00:48:02.730 --> 00:48:05.850 align:middle line:84% But a lot of this discussion is quite new. 00:48:05.850 --> 00:48:10.060 align:middle line:90% 00:48:10.060 --> 00:48:12.735 align:middle line:84% OK, can I shift gears and start talking about Ford Pinto? 00:48:12.735 --> 00:48:13.360 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:14.500 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: All right, then I said 00:48:14.500 --> 00:48:16.030 align:middle line:90% something I really didn't mean. 00:48:16.030 --> 00:48:17.090 align:middle line:90% I want to shift gears. 00:48:17.090 --> 00:48:19.330 align:middle line:84% But you're going to talk about Ford Pinto. 00:48:19.330 --> 00:48:20.140 align:middle line:90% OK, start. 00:48:20.140 --> 00:48:22.380 align:middle line:90% Just start talking. 00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:23.432 align:middle line:90% Ford Pinto. 00:48:23.432 --> 00:48:26.110 align:middle line:90% 00:48:26.110 --> 00:48:29.090 align:middle line:90% Let's talk about facts. 00:48:29.090 --> 00:48:32.620 align:middle line:84% Did you get the chance to read this case? 00:48:32.620 --> 00:48:35.220 align:middle line:84% Then I think we can go through and get a lot of the facts 00:48:35.220 --> 00:48:38.620 align:middle line:84% without spending a whole lot of time. 00:48:38.620 --> 00:48:39.750 align:middle line:90% Anybody want to go first? 00:48:39.750 --> 00:48:43.500 align:middle line:90% 00:48:43.500 --> 00:48:45.330 align:middle line:90% Start with the year. 00:48:45.330 --> 00:48:48.690 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: What year-- so we're in the late 1960s, 00:48:48.690 --> 00:48:53.700 align:middle line:84% and Ford deciding that they want to design a car that 00:48:53.700 --> 00:48:56.070 align:middle line:84% will sell for less than $2,000 and weigh 00:48:56.070 --> 00:48:57.870 align:middle line:90% less than 2,000 pounds. 00:48:57.870 --> 00:49:02.220 align:middle line:84% And they to compete, rush the production 00:49:02.220 --> 00:49:04.440 align:middle line:84% to happen a little more than two years 00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:08.680 align:middle line:84% compared to the usual three and a half years. 00:49:08.680 --> 00:49:12.310 align:middle line:84% And the book says so this means that a lot of the design 00:49:12.310 --> 00:49:17.330 align:middle line:84% and styling happened before the mechanical engineering, 00:49:17.330 --> 00:49:19.520 align:middle line:84% so some engineering decisions were 00:49:19.520 --> 00:49:21.585 align:middle line:84% based on design rather than design 00:49:21.585 --> 00:49:23.590 align:middle line:90% coming after engineering. 00:49:23.590 --> 00:49:27.700 align:middle line:84% So they decided that the best place for the gas tank 00:49:27.700 --> 00:49:31.690 align:middle line:84% was between the rear axle and the bumper, 00:49:31.690 --> 00:49:33.250 align:middle line:84% between the gas tank and the bumper. 00:49:33.250 --> 00:49:36.350 align:middle line:90% 00:49:36.350 --> 00:49:39.320 align:middle line:84% No, they decided the best place for the gas tank 00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:41.450 align:middle line:84% is between the axle and the bumper. 00:49:41.450 --> 00:49:44.900 align:middle line:84% And there were bolt heads on the-- 00:49:44.900 --> 00:49:48.692 align:middle line:90% 00:49:48.692 --> 00:49:51.000 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Did they use the term sheet metal? 00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:54.300 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: No, just says there were exposed bolt heads that 00:49:54.300 --> 00:49:58.500 align:middle line:84% could puncture the gas tank if the tank were driven forward 00:49:58.500 --> 00:50:01.080 align:middle line:90% towards the axle upon impact. 00:50:01.080 --> 00:50:02.680 align:middle line:90% What's the sheet metal? 00:50:02.680 --> 00:50:09.370 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: There was a code that 00:50:09.370 --> 00:50:11.110 align:middle line:84% said a certain amount of sheet metal 00:50:11.110 --> 00:50:14.830 align:middle line:84% should exist between the gas tank and passengers. 00:50:14.830 --> 00:50:18.280 align:middle line:90% 00:50:18.280 --> 00:50:19.930 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It doesn't talk about that. 00:50:19.930 --> 00:50:21.763 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: By taking that sheet metal out, 00:50:21.763 --> 00:50:24.349 align:middle line:84% it can reduce some of the weight of the car. 00:50:24.349 --> 00:50:28.750 align:middle line:90% 00:50:28.750 --> 00:50:31.720 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So anyway, we have this gas tank 00:50:31.720 --> 00:50:32.920 align:middle line:90% in a precarious position. 00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:36.730 align:middle line:84% And they did crash tests to see how often the bolt 00:50:36.730 --> 00:50:40.770 align:middle line:84% heads were driven into the gas tank, causing the explosions. 00:50:40.770 --> 00:50:49.400 align:middle line:84% And the results were that at 21 miles per hour is enough, 00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:53.900 align:middle line:84% was high enough speed for the gas tank to be puncture. 00:50:53.900 --> 00:50:58.350 align:middle line:84% Then they made adjustments, just of putting the tank 00:50:58.350 --> 00:51:01.560 align:middle line:84% above the rear axle rather than behind it, 00:51:01.560 --> 00:51:06.000 align:middle line:84% or adding rubber bumpers on the gas tank itself. 00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:07.680 align:middle line:84% Those minor adjustments, that would 00:51:07.680 --> 00:51:11.130 align:middle line:84% have cost like $11 per car, prevented the tank 00:51:11.130 --> 00:51:12.932 align:middle line:84% from being punctured in a crash test. 00:51:12.932 --> 00:51:18.420 align:middle line:90% 00:51:18.420 --> 00:51:23.770 align:middle line:84% But the manager's decision was that the cost 00:51:23.770 --> 00:51:27.030 align:middle line:84% of those adjustments, the $11 a vehicle, 00:51:27.030 --> 00:51:31.290 align:middle line:90% didn't outweigh the benefits. 00:51:31.290 --> 00:51:32.550 align:middle line:90% Those costs were too great. 00:51:32.550 --> 00:51:40.140 align:middle line:84% So the cost of the deaths and destroyed vehicles 00:51:40.140 --> 00:51:46.368 align:middle line:84% were less than the cost of $11 per car. 00:51:46.368 --> 00:51:48.352 align:middle line:90% Does that make sense? 00:51:48.352 --> 00:51:49.840 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: You put a monetary value 00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:53.312 align:middle line:90% on a person's life [INAUDIBLE] 00:51:53.312 --> 00:51:57.776 align:middle line:90% 00:51:57.776 --> 00:52:02.017 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] $11 so [INAUDIBLE] 00:52:02.017 --> 00:52:03.600 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Say that part again, now. 00:52:03.600 --> 00:52:07.020 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Based on a monetary value of the lives that 00:52:07.020 --> 00:52:08.499 align:middle line:90% would be lost. 00:52:08.499 --> 00:52:11.930 align:middle line:90% 00:52:11.930 --> 00:52:15.990 align:middle line:84% They issued a report after the crash tests to-- 00:52:15.990 --> 00:52:17.240 align:middle line:90% I can't believe it. 00:52:17.240 --> 00:52:19.340 align:middle line:90% It's in writing. 00:52:19.340 --> 00:52:23.220 align:middle line:84% A memo attached to the report had those cost and benefits. 00:52:23.220 --> 00:52:26.500 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: That's the technical term, 00:52:26.500 --> 00:52:28.030 align:middle line:90% cost-benefit analysis. 00:52:28.030 --> 00:52:31.027 align:middle line:90% 00:52:31.027 --> 00:52:33.110 align:middle line:84% I don't think the word required is the right word, 00:52:33.110 --> 00:52:41.500 align:middle line:84% but in that method, it is useful to put a monetary value 00:52:41.500 --> 00:52:43.450 align:middle line:90% on a human life. 00:52:43.450 --> 00:52:47.420 align:middle line:84% I mean, that's what engineers used to do all of the time. 00:52:47.420 --> 00:52:51.910 align:middle line:84% I don't if they do it now, but we used to do it all the time, 00:52:51.910 --> 00:52:58.710 align:middle line:84% and include that in as the cost as opposed 00:52:58.710 --> 00:53:02.530 align:middle line:84% to how much you think you could get in profit. 00:53:02.530 --> 00:53:04.932 align:middle line:90% So keep talking. 00:53:04.932 --> 00:53:06.810 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 00:53:06.810 --> 00:53:08.130 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: You're right. 00:53:08.130 --> 00:53:09.023 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I know. 00:53:09.023 --> 00:53:11.040 align:middle line:90% Seems a little cheap. 00:53:11.040 --> 00:53:12.300 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: OK, are we done? 00:53:12.300 --> 00:53:14.145 align:middle line:90% Let me give you some background. 00:53:14.145 --> 00:53:16.062 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Some more background would be great. 00:53:16.062 --> 00:53:20.810 align:middle line:90% 00:53:20.810 --> 00:53:24.080 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Something that you probably-- 00:53:24.080 --> 00:53:26.970 align:middle line:84% something you have certainly never experienced. 00:53:26.970 --> 00:53:28.920 align:middle line:84% I doubt if you've ever heard of-- 00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:29.910 align:middle line:90% it's called a gas line. 00:53:29.910 --> 00:53:33.130 align:middle line:90% 00:53:33.130 --> 00:53:35.350 align:middle line:84% That is driving up to a gas station, 00:53:35.350 --> 00:53:38.600 align:middle line:90% and standing in line to get gas. 00:53:38.600 --> 00:53:43.450 align:middle line:84% And you've got a quota, like being in war in England. 00:53:43.450 --> 00:53:46.540 align:middle line:84% Where I lived in Virginia at the time, 00:53:46.540 --> 00:53:49.240 align:middle line:84% if you wanted to get gasoline at a gas station, 00:53:49.240 --> 00:53:52.270 align:middle line:84% and you had to be at work at 9:00 in the morning, 00:53:52.270 --> 00:53:55.890 align:middle line:84% you had to be in a gas line at 7:00. 00:53:55.890 --> 00:53:58.080 align:middle line:84% And you were taking your chances that by the time 00:53:58.080 --> 00:54:00.030 align:middle line:84% you got up there, they'd have some gas left. 00:54:00.030 --> 00:54:02.950 align:middle line:90% 00:54:02.950 --> 00:54:10.390 align:middle line:84% What had happened was OPEC had increased the cost per barrel, 00:54:10.390 --> 00:54:12.140 align:middle line:90% and et cetera, et cetera. 00:54:12.140 --> 00:54:16.930 align:middle line:84% So it was really a psychological crisis in the US, 00:54:16.930 --> 00:54:19.900 align:middle line:84% given the way we think about cars-- 00:54:19.900 --> 00:54:23.200 align:middle line:84% that you have to stand in line for two or three hours 00:54:23.200 --> 00:54:24.788 align:middle line:90% to get a fill up. 00:54:24.788 --> 00:54:26.080 align:middle line:90% And you couldn't get a fill up. 00:54:26.080 --> 00:54:28.720 align:middle line:84% You could only get so many dollars worth. 00:54:28.720 --> 00:54:32.090 align:middle line:84% And then you might stand in line that morning, and get there, 00:54:32.090 --> 00:54:34.540 align:middle line:90% and they're out. 00:54:34.540 --> 00:54:37.330 align:middle line:90% So that was going on. 00:54:37.330 --> 00:54:46.330 align:middle line:84% The most significant way to increase gas mileage 00:54:46.330 --> 00:54:50.255 align:middle line:84% was to reduce weight, the weight of a car. 00:54:50.255 --> 00:54:52.990 align:middle line:90% 00:54:52.990 --> 00:54:54.790 align:middle line:84% Now we don't think about it in those terms. 00:54:54.790 --> 00:55:01.140 align:middle line:84% We think about it in other terms of how to get more gas mileage. 00:55:01.140 --> 00:55:04.620 align:middle line:84% But then, it hit us for the first time. 00:55:04.620 --> 00:55:07.560 align:middle line:90% We liked heavy cars. 00:55:07.560 --> 00:55:08.310 align:middle line:90% It was a mistake. 00:55:08.310 --> 00:55:12.450 align:middle line:90% 00:55:12.450 --> 00:55:17.056 align:middle line:84% I remember one time my dad had just bought this car. 00:55:17.056 --> 00:55:18.860 align:middle line:90% It was a Chrysler. 00:55:18.860 --> 00:55:20.240 align:middle line:90% And it came out-- 00:55:20.240 --> 00:55:22.430 align:middle line:84% this was called the Push Button Age. 00:55:22.430 --> 00:55:26.840 align:middle line:84% And the first car came out, at least an American car, 00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:30.440 align:middle line:84% came out with push button transmission. 00:55:30.440 --> 00:55:32.810 align:middle line:90% You ever heard of that? 00:55:32.810 --> 00:55:35.090 align:middle line:84% Where you want to go in reverse, you 00:55:35.090 --> 00:55:37.490 align:middle line:84% push R. When you want to go forward, 00:55:37.490 --> 00:55:43.130 align:middle line:84% you push D. It was a push button thing. 00:55:43.130 --> 00:55:47.000 align:middle line:84% And this is back in the late, late '50s. 00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:51.105 align:middle line:90% And I had this date. 00:55:51.105 --> 00:55:51.980 align:middle line:90% I was in high school. 00:55:51.980 --> 00:55:54.290 align:middle line:84% I just gotten my license, and I was 00:55:54.290 --> 00:55:57.140 align:middle line:84% going to take this little girl to this dance in my daddy's 00:55:57.140 --> 00:56:00.950 align:middle line:84% new car with the push-button drive. 00:56:00.950 --> 00:56:02.480 align:middle line:90% And I took her to this dance. 00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:04.940 align:middle line:84% And when we came out of the dance, 00:56:04.940 --> 00:56:07.550 align:middle line:84% people were crowded around the car. 00:56:07.550 --> 00:56:11.030 align:middle line:84% How can you have push-button drive? 00:56:11.030 --> 00:56:14.850 align:middle line:84% And so this was the first and the last time I showed off, 00:56:14.850 --> 00:56:18.350 align:middle line:84% or what we used to call showing out in a car. 00:56:18.350 --> 00:56:23.750 align:middle line:84% We got in the car, and I wanted to demonstrate 00:56:23.750 --> 00:56:27.410 align:middle line:84% that now that I have push-button drive, 00:56:27.410 --> 00:56:32.330 align:middle line:84% I didn't have to pay attention to putting the car in gear 00:56:32.330 --> 00:56:33.830 align:middle line:90% like everybody else had to. 00:56:33.830 --> 00:56:35.960 align:middle line:90% Most cars had four gears-- 00:56:35.960 --> 00:56:37.770 align:middle line:90% a lot of them, not most of them. 00:56:37.770 --> 00:56:45.170 align:middle line:84% And so I was looking at my date and putting the car in gear, 00:56:45.170 --> 00:56:50.730 align:middle line:84% but I made a mistake and put it in reverse and hit the gas. 00:56:50.730 --> 00:56:57.860 align:middle line:84% And instead of going forward, I went back and hit a brick wall. 00:56:57.860 --> 00:57:00.050 align:middle line:84% Now, the point that I'm making is the damage 00:57:00.050 --> 00:57:01.010 align:middle line:90% was done to the wall. 00:57:01.010 --> 00:57:02.570 align:middle line:90% It wasn't done to the car. 00:57:02.570 --> 00:57:07.550 align:middle line:90% That car had a fender that-- 00:57:07.550 --> 00:57:10.550 align:middle line:84% we used to call it 1/4-inch armor plate. 00:57:10.550 --> 00:57:11.870 align:middle line:90% But it wasn't 1/4 of an inch. 00:57:11.870 --> 00:57:15.365 align:middle line:84% But I mean, the fender of that car-- 00:57:15.365 --> 00:57:20.090 align:middle line:84% was something like they don't make at all today. 00:57:20.090 --> 00:57:22.640 align:middle line:84% A whole new concept about fenders today. 00:57:22.640 --> 00:57:24.260 align:middle line:90% They want it to dent. 00:57:24.260 --> 00:57:27.660 align:middle line:84% Back then, you wanted to break up anything that it hit. 00:57:27.660 --> 00:57:32.910 align:middle line:84% So there was this heavy aesthetic back in those days. 00:57:32.910 --> 00:57:38.750 align:middle line:84% And so it was very competitive to get a car out and get it out 00:57:38.750 --> 00:57:40.370 align:middle line:90% with high gas mileage. 00:57:40.370 --> 00:57:42.770 align:middle line:90% So that was a compulsion. 00:57:42.770 --> 00:57:45.650 align:middle line:84% There's a formal term that people 00:57:45.650 --> 00:57:47.840 align:middle line:84% use when they talk about engineering, 00:57:47.840 --> 00:57:52.090 align:middle line:84% and they call it the engineering imperatives. 00:57:52.090 --> 00:57:55.150 align:middle line:90% Cost is 1. 00:57:55.150 --> 00:58:01.030 align:middle line:84% So now, when a gas crisis came out, 00:58:01.030 --> 00:58:04.900 align:middle line:84% there's another thing to be said about that-- 00:58:04.900 --> 00:58:09.160 align:middle line:84% food prices went up dramatically because the food 00:58:09.160 --> 00:58:11.830 align:middle line:84% that was brought into the grocery stores 00:58:11.830 --> 00:58:14.050 align:middle line:90% was brought by trucks. 00:58:14.050 --> 00:58:18.410 align:middle line:84% And if the trucks had to pay more money for the diesel fuel, 00:58:18.410 --> 00:58:20.440 align:middle line:84% then they raised the price of food. 00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:23.170 align:middle line:90% So a can of beans went up. 00:58:23.170 --> 00:58:26.200 align:middle line:84% So everything started going up, everything. 00:58:26.200 --> 00:58:28.720 align:middle line:84% So there's this big compulsion to get cars 00:58:28.720 --> 00:58:31.920 align:middle line:90% with a lot of high gas mileage. 00:58:31.920 --> 00:58:34.946 align:middle line:84% Back in those days, I drove a diesel. 00:58:34.946 --> 00:58:37.702 align:middle line:84% So I'd go out to the truck stops and get my fuel. 00:58:37.702 --> 00:58:38.660 align:middle line:90% I didn't stand in line. 00:58:38.660 --> 00:58:42.240 align:middle line:90% 00:58:42.240 --> 00:58:47.000 align:middle line:90% So there was this other issue. 00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:53.030 align:middle line:84% And the newspapers made a big issue out of it. 00:58:53.030 --> 00:58:56.120 align:middle line:84% I don't know how it wound up in the courts, 00:58:56.120 --> 00:59:01.070 align:middle line:84% but it became a big issue for people in engineering ethics. 00:59:01.070 --> 00:59:10.430 align:middle line:84% And that was that the newspapers put the spin on the story, 00:59:10.430 --> 00:59:17.120 align:middle line:84% that the engineers had not only calculated how much profit they 00:59:17.120 --> 00:59:23.170 align:middle line:84% would get, but they had calculated 00:59:23.170 --> 00:59:27.220 align:middle line:84% how many lawsuits they would get and how many lawsuits they 00:59:27.220 --> 00:59:27.730 align:middle line:90% would lose. 00:59:27.730 --> 00:59:32.480 align:middle line:90% 00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:38.540 align:middle line:84% And that irritated the American public to the n-th degree. 00:59:38.540 --> 00:59:41.360 align:middle line:84% And the newspapers had it out where this one 00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:44.330 align:middle line:90% lady got hit, got rear-ended. 00:59:44.330 --> 00:59:47.540 align:middle line:84% She was sitting still at a red light and the car that 00:59:47.540 --> 00:59:50.730 align:middle line:84% hit her was only going 20 miles an hour or something like that. 00:59:50.730 --> 00:59:52.280 align:middle line:90% And the car exploded. . 00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:54.290 align:middle line:84% And they had pictures of her with all 00:59:54.290 --> 00:59:55.880 align:middle line:90% of her skin burned off. 00:59:55.880 --> 01:00:00.800 align:middle line:90% Oh, it was just a big to-do. 01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:08.470 align:middle line:84% And so that part, the ethical part that was being discussed 01:00:08.470 --> 01:00:13.190 align:middle line:84% had a lot to do with putting a monetary value on human life, 01:00:13.190 --> 01:00:15.620 align:middle line:84% and whether or not it is right to just calculate 01:00:15.620 --> 01:00:19.520 align:middle line:84% how many lawsuits will they be able-- will you lose. 01:00:19.520 --> 01:00:21.770 align:middle line:84% Because technicalities-- you've got the better lawyers 01:00:21.770 --> 01:00:25.340 align:middle line:84% than the individual person who is driving the car. 01:00:25.340 --> 01:00:27.860 align:middle line:84% The companies have these big lawyers. 01:00:27.860 --> 01:00:30.755 align:middle line:84% And they just said that they'll just pay the cost. 01:00:30.755 --> 01:00:36.250 align:middle line:90% 01:00:36.250 --> 01:00:41.890 align:middle line:84% So what were some of the issues that the authors here 01:00:41.890 --> 01:00:50.550 align:middle line:84% point out as legitimate points of view on this thing? 01:00:50.550 --> 01:00:51.630 align:middle line:90% You remember? 01:00:51.630 --> 01:00:56.530 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, it's a legitimate cost-benefit 01:00:56.530 --> 01:00:59.350 align:middle line:84% analysis from a utilitarian point of view. 01:00:59.350 --> 01:01:05.440 align:middle line:84% I mean, the method of analysis, at least, is legitimate. 01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:10.380 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE] utilitarian ethics gone wrong. 01:01:10.380 --> 01:01:13.070 align:middle line:84% I mean, maybe that is a perfectly valid 01:01:13.070 --> 01:01:15.350 align:middle line:84% cost-benefit analysis, but I think their point of view 01:01:15.350 --> 01:01:18.920 align:middle line:84% is skewed somewhat, that it doesn't really 01:01:18.920 --> 01:01:21.380 align:middle line:84% get at the essence of what a cost-benefit analysis 01:01:21.380 --> 01:01:27.610 align:middle line:84% and what a utilitarian approach would kind of force you to do. 01:01:27.610 --> 01:01:30.262 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting-- 01:01:30.262 --> 01:01:32.470 align:middle line:84% yeah, I feel like this is a utilitarian approach that 01:01:32.470 --> 01:01:34.270 align:middle line:90% came to the wrong conclusion. 01:01:34.270 --> 01:01:36.528 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: That's what I want to conclude. 01:01:36.528 --> 01:01:38.320 align:middle line:84% I want to say that what Ford did was wrong. 01:01:38.320 --> 01:01:40.212 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Did they get the numbers wrong? 01:01:40.212 --> 01:01:41.920 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Did they get the numbers wrong? 01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:42.970 align:middle line:90% Is that what you're saying? 01:01:42.970 --> 01:01:44.410 align:middle line:84% Yeah, so that's what I want to say 01:01:44.410 --> 01:01:48.310 align:middle line:84% is, well they just didn't put a high enough cost on human life. 01:01:48.310 --> 01:01:52.090 align:middle line:84% If they had put a higher cost, then the conclusion 01:01:52.090 --> 01:01:55.570 align:middle line:84% would have been to put the safety features into the car 01:01:55.570 --> 01:01:58.000 align:middle line:84% because they wouldn't have been saving. 01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:00.405 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But I think their audience is off, too. 01:02:00.405 --> 01:02:01.780 align:middle line:84% I mean, from their point of view, 01:02:01.780 --> 01:02:04.000 align:middle line:84% if you just consider their corporation, yes, it 01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:05.320 align:middle line:90% makes sense to not do it. 01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:06.670 align:middle line:90% But they're not considering. 01:02:06.670 --> 01:02:09.117 align:middle line:90% 01:02:09.117 --> 01:02:11.450 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think they are, when they assign their value 01:02:11.450 --> 01:02:12.600 align:middle line:90% to this person's life. 01:02:12.600 --> 01:02:15.110 align:middle line:84% But I think they're looking at it a little too narrowly. 01:02:15.110 --> 01:02:17.970 align:middle line:84% Something went wrong, I think, in that analysis. 01:02:17.970 --> 01:02:20.895 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But there must have been society [INAUDIBLE].. 01:02:20.895 --> 01:02:23.740 align:middle line:90% 01:02:23.740 --> 01:02:26.950 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: But is a company supposed to serve society? 01:02:26.950 --> 01:02:29.732 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, you were talking about management, strictly 01:02:29.732 --> 01:02:30.998 align:middle line:90% the company and shareholders. 01:02:30.998 --> 01:02:32.890 align:middle line:84% And then the engineers are supposed 01:02:32.890 --> 01:02:38.500 align:middle line:84% to do some of that, so some of the safety of the public. 01:02:38.500 --> 01:02:42.982 align:middle line:84% Doesn't sound like they put any weight at all 01:02:42.982 --> 01:02:44.750 align:middle line:90% in the safety [INAUDIBLE]. 01:02:44.750 --> 01:02:47.060 align:middle line:84% Because even the cost on the life 01:02:47.060 --> 01:02:52.612 align:middle line:84% was from a management point of view in terms of [INAUDIBLE].. 01:02:52.612 --> 01:02:55.900 align:middle line:90% 01:02:55.900 --> 01:03:00.090 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, how would you have done 01:03:00.090 --> 01:03:03.900 align:middle line:90% if you were an engineer there? 01:03:03.900 --> 01:03:04.950 align:middle line:90% Make me the bad guy. 01:03:04.950 --> 01:03:06.367 align:middle line:84% I'm the one who told you to do it. 01:03:06.367 --> 01:03:07.050 align:middle line:90% I'm your boss. 01:03:07.050 --> 01:03:09.924 align:middle line:90% 01:03:09.924 --> 01:03:12.800 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: What was the cost [INAUDIBLE] management? 01:03:12.800 --> 01:03:15.198 align:middle line:84% What mandate did management [INAUDIBLE]?? 01:03:15.198 --> 01:03:17.540 align:middle line:90% 01:03:17.540 --> 01:03:20.240 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Sink that cost. 01:03:20.240 --> 01:03:23.660 align:middle line:84% You guys are coming up with too much weight. 01:03:23.660 --> 01:03:29.880 align:middle line:84% I want the weight of this vehicle down another 12 pounds. 01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:32.400 align:middle line:90% Go back and do it. 01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:34.590 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Wait, what about the regulation? 01:03:34.590 --> 01:03:37.790 align:middle line:90% 01:03:37.790 --> 01:03:41.490 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: OK, now we want to talk about regulations. 01:03:41.490 --> 01:03:43.260 align:middle line:90% I want to put a BUT in there. 01:03:43.260 --> 01:03:47.670 align:middle line:84% I don't want the Ethics class to turn into a legal class, 01:03:47.670 --> 01:03:52.170 align:middle line:84% but what I want to do is to say, well, what are the regulations? 01:03:52.170 --> 01:04:00.260 align:middle line:84% And I want to ask, do we have an ethical obligation 01:04:00.260 --> 01:04:01.850 align:middle line:90% to abide by the regulations? 01:04:01.850 --> 01:04:10.790 align:middle line:90% That is, to use, for example-- 01:04:10.790 --> 01:04:11.760 align:middle line:90% here's my example, now. 01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:15.410 align:middle line:84% It goes back to what you've all said. 01:04:15.410 --> 01:04:19.640 align:middle line:84% The regulations allow cost-benefit analysis, 01:04:19.640 --> 01:04:21.890 align:middle line:90% or allowed. 01:04:21.890 --> 01:04:23.930 align:middle line:90% So it was legal to do that. 01:04:23.930 --> 01:04:25.430 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think a regulation maybe 01:04:25.430 --> 01:04:32.460 align:middle line:84% to protect [INAUDIBLE] same way tenure protects [INAUDIBLE] 01:04:32.460 --> 01:04:35.740 align:middle line:84% management tells them cut the costs all the way down 01:04:35.740 --> 01:04:43.480 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE] much, putting some numbers on lives. 01:04:43.480 --> 01:04:45.844 align:middle line:90% Because it doesn't [INAUDIBLE]. 01:04:45.844 --> 01:04:48.807 align:middle line:90% 01:04:48.807 --> 01:04:50.390 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, that's exactly what 01:04:50.390 --> 01:04:52.520 align:middle line:84% all the engineers did, and all the engineers 01:04:52.520 --> 01:04:53.570 align:middle line:90% had a right to do-- 01:04:53.570 --> 01:04:56.660 align:middle line:84% point to the regulations, say, we live within the law. 01:04:56.660 --> 01:04:59.740 align:middle line:90% What are you talking about? 01:04:59.740 --> 01:05:05.400 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] I'm sure more regulations came out 01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:07.040 align:middle line:90% of this case, right? 01:05:07.040 --> 01:05:08.998 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yes, a whole flood of them. 01:05:08.998 --> 01:05:12.902 align:middle line:90% 01:05:12.902 --> 01:05:17.184 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] something was [INAUDIBLE].. 01:05:17.184 --> 01:05:20.530 align:middle line:90% 01:05:20.530 --> 01:05:25.680 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: I think that one of the things that 01:05:25.680 --> 01:05:32.130 align:middle line:84% made this case what it was, was really 01:05:32.130 --> 01:05:35.490 align:middle line:84% the question that hurt engineers a lot 01:05:35.490 --> 01:05:37.500 align:middle line:90% that came from citizen groups. 01:05:37.500 --> 01:05:40.690 align:middle line:90% How could you all do that? 01:05:40.690 --> 01:05:44.050 align:middle line:84% How could you do-- how could you just sit down, 01:05:44.050 --> 01:05:47.020 align:middle line:84% and just say, well, we we're going to kill so many people, 01:05:47.020 --> 01:05:50.110 align:middle line:84% but we can make a profit off of it because they won't 01:05:50.110 --> 01:05:51.970 align:middle line:90% win a lot of these law cases? 01:05:51.970 --> 01:05:54.940 align:middle line:84% How can you just-- how could you do something like that? 01:05:54.940 --> 01:05:58.150 align:middle line:84% And engineers personally-- I mean, 01:05:58.150 --> 01:06:02.270 align:middle line:84% I was going to conferences roughly once every 01:06:02.270 --> 01:06:05.150 align:middle line:84% four to six weeks back in those days. 01:06:05.150 --> 01:06:10.780 align:middle line:84% And I think that I didn't go to a single conference where 01:06:10.780 --> 01:06:13.690 align:middle line:84% somebody didn't lose it emotionally, 01:06:13.690 --> 01:06:15.835 align:middle line:84% either in the audience or on the panel. 01:06:15.835 --> 01:06:18.160 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because they got attacked for it. 01:06:18.160 --> 01:06:20.077 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Either because they felt attacked 01:06:20.077 --> 01:06:24.610 align:middle line:84% or because they were on the attack. 01:06:24.610 --> 01:06:29.590 align:middle line:84% And some of the people who were on the attack 01:06:29.590 --> 01:06:31.630 align:middle line:84% could point to a relative of somebody who died. 01:06:31.630 --> 01:06:34.410 align:middle line:90% 01:06:34.410 --> 01:06:39.210 align:middle line:84% And the people who were defending themselves 01:06:39.210 --> 01:06:43.170 align:middle line:90% were ordinary, decent people. 01:06:43.170 --> 01:06:47.250 align:middle line:84% Engineers go to work at 9:00, get off at 5:00, 01:06:47.250 --> 01:06:50.620 align:middle line:90% do the best they can do. 01:06:50.620 --> 01:06:52.390 align:middle line:90% And they had engineers-- 01:06:52.390 --> 01:06:54.310 align:middle line:84% there was a whole generation of engineers who 01:06:54.310 --> 01:06:57.030 align:middle line:90% had never been attacked before. 01:06:57.030 --> 01:07:01.440 align:middle line:84% The last ones were in the early, early '40s and late '30s. 01:07:01.440 --> 01:07:06.570 align:middle line:84% So we're talking about late '60s or early '70s. 01:07:06.570 --> 01:07:11.520 align:middle line:84% Engineers always thought of themselves as decent people. 01:07:11.520 --> 01:07:12.480 align:middle line:90% There was an article-- 01:07:12.480 --> 01:07:14.220 align:middle line:90% I'm still trying to find it. 01:07:14.220 --> 01:07:17.340 align:middle line:84% Maybe you all can find it for me. 01:07:17.340 --> 01:07:20.130 align:middle line:90% It came out in a magazine. 01:07:20.130 --> 01:07:26.090 align:middle line:84% It was one of two magazines-- it was either Look or Life. 01:07:26.090 --> 01:07:30.050 align:middle line:84% Those were magazines that were big magazines 01:07:30.050 --> 01:07:36.630 align:middle line:84% back in the '50s and '60s, maybe even the '40s and '30s, '20s. 01:07:36.630 --> 01:07:41.220 align:middle line:84% Everybody read either Look or Life. 01:07:41.220 --> 01:07:45.930 align:middle line:84% And I remember in there, there was an article, 01:07:45.930 --> 01:07:50.340 align:middle line:84% and it had this picture introducing the article. 01:07:50.340 --> 01:07:58.170 align:middle line:84% And the picture was the ideal of American life in the 1950s-- 01:07:58.170 --> 01:08:02.860 align:middle line:84% a husband and wife and two kids living in the suburbs. 01:08:02.860 --> 01:08:05.670 align:middle line:84% The wife stays home, the husband goes to work. 01:08:05.670 --> 01:08:08.010 align:middle line:84% And the kids look up to dad like he's-- 01:08:08.010 --> 01:08:11.070 align:middle line:84% that was the-- it had that picture. 01:08:11.070 --> 01:08:15.270 align:middle line:84% And the wife was standing in the doorway 01:08:15.270 --> 01:08:17.130 align:middle line:84% handing him, handing the husband, 01:08:17.130 --> 01:08:19.200 align:middle line:90% his lunch pail, as I recall it. 01:08:19.200 --> 01:08:21.569 align:middle line:84% And the kids were waving goodbye. 01:08:21.569 --> 01:08:28.740 align:middle line:84% And the title of it were words to the effect, 01:08:28.740 --> 01:08:31.529 align:middle line:84% he's an engineer, and his family doesn't know 01:08:31.529 --> 01:08:34.319 align:middle line:90% what he's going to do today. 01:08:34.319 --> 01:08:36.479 align:middle line:84% And it was based on some national surveys 01:08:36.479 --> 01:08:38.520 align:middle line:84% that the families of engineers had 01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:41.760 align:middle line:84% not a clue as to what their husband or father was 01:08:41.760 --> 01:08:42.279 align:middle line:90% going to do. 01:08:42.279 --> 01:08:43.950 align:middle line:90% They were all men in those days. 01:08:43.950 --> 01:08:46.244 align:middle line:84% When I say all men, I don't mean 100%. 01:08:46.244 --> 01:08:49.170 align:middle line:90% 01:08:49.170 --> 01:08:50.370 align:middle line:90% 98%. 01:08:50.370 --> 01:08:54.337 align:middle line:84% They did not know what their father was going to do all day. 01:08:54.337 --> 01:08:55.920 align:middle line:84% They didn't know what engineering was. 01:08:55.920 --> 01:09:00.132 align:middle line:90% 01:09:00.132 --> 01:09:03.290 align:middle line:84% I'm still trying to find that article. 01:09:03.290 --> 01:09:05.060 align:middle line:84% There was another article that I'm still 01:09:05.060 --> 01:09:08.720 align:middle line:84% trying to find that came out in one of those magazines, 01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:16.520 align:middle line:84% where they had these pictures of graduation at Berkeley. 01:09:16.520 --> 01:09:20.189 align:middle line:90% 01:09:20.189 --> 01:09:25.830 align:middle line:84% And the students, the engineering students, 01:09:25.830 --> 01:09:28.200 align:middle line:84% had these placards, and the liberal arts students 01:09:28.200 --> 01:09:30.090 align:middle line:90% had other placards. 01:09:30.090 --> 01:09:32.880 align:middle line:84% And they were not anti-war placards. 01:09:32.880 --> 01:09:35.560 align:middle line:90% 01:09:35.560 --> 01:09:39.390 align:middle line:84% The liberal arts students had placards that said, 01:09:39.390 --> 01:09:42.180 align:middle line:90% we got an education. 01:09:42.180 --> 01:09:45.390 align:middle line:84% And the engineering placards said, we got jobs. 01:09:45.390 --> 01:09:49.439 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] And they were directed one towards each other. 01:09:49.439 --> 01:09:52.370 align:middle line:90% 01:09:52.370 --> 01:09:54.279 align:middle line:90% So there was this-- 01:09:54.279 --> 01:09:57.580 align:middle line:84% I'm trying to describe the mood of the times that 01:09:57.580 --> 01:09:59.110 align:middle line:90% govern your ethical decisions. 01:09:59.110 --> 01:10:01.510 align:middle line:84% Because I argue that ethical decisions, 01:10:01.510 --> 01:10:03.850 align:middle line:90% no matter what Plato said-- 01:10:03.850 --> 01:10:06.520 align:middle line:84% actually, no matter what Aristotle said-- 01:10:06.520 --> 01:10:08.980 align:middle line:84% have a lot to do with your passions. 01:10:08.980 --> 01:10:11.200 align:middle line:84% You're trying to put your passions and your reason 01:10:11.200 --> 01:10:14.380 align:middle line:84% in some kind of harmony in a lot of them. 01:10:14.380 --> 01:10:17.320 align:middle line:84% But Aristotle said, no, it's all reason. 01:10:17.320 --> 01:10:20.053 align:middle line:84% And Plato said, no, it's all character. 01:10:20.053 --> 01:10:24.600 align:middle line:90% 01:10:24.600 --> 01:10:30.270 align:middle line:84% Well, are you willing to take a stand on the Ford Pinto case? 01:10:30.270 --> 01:10:33.970 align:middle line:84% Can you point to somebody who did something wrong? 01:10:33.970 --> 01:10:38.160 align:middle line:84% Can you point to somebody else who did something right? 01:10:38.160 --> 01:10:43.470 align:middle line:84% Can you tell me what you would do if you were in a situation? 01:10:43.470 --> 01:10:46.470 align:middle line:84% Would you have blown the whistle on your company 01:10:46.470 --> 01:10:49.347 align:middle line:90% when the word came down? 01:10:49.347 --> 01:10:51.180 align:middle line:84% Notice that nobody in Ford blew the whistle. 01:10:51.180 --> 01:10:54.280 align:middle line:90% 01:10:54.280 --> 01:10:59.410 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I mean, I feel like if-- 01:10:59.410 --> 01:11:05.300 align:middle line:90% 01:11:05.300 --> 01:11:07.410 align:middle line:84% I wonder how much the engineers that 01:11:07.410 --> 01:11:11.880 align:middle line:84% were working on the car design knew about the crash test 01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:13.247 align:middle line:90% results. 01:11:13.247 --> 01:11:14.330 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: I don't know. 01:11:14.330 --> 01:11:19.510 align:middle line:90% 01:11:19.510 --> 01:11:23.570 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] they listened to the boss. 01:11:23.570 --> 01:11:26.050 align:middle line:84% Whatever your boss says, [INAUDIBLE] they just 01:11:26.050 --> 01:11:28.130 align:middle line:90% did whatever they could do. 01:11:28.130 --> 01:11:30.970 align:middle line:84% And there was no [INAUDIBLE] back in the day. 01:11:30.970 --> 01:11:34.556 align:middle line:84% If you're talking about the type of [INAUDIBLE],, 01:11:34.556 --> 01:11:35.760 align:middle line:90% they don't question. 01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:41.425 align:middle line:84% They don't-- now people are more likely to think about standing 01:11:41.425 --> 01:11:43.405 align:middle line:90% up for what they think is right. 01:11:43.405 --> 01:11:46.375 align:middle line:90% I think back then, [INAUDIBLE]. 01:11:46.375 --> 01:11:50.470 align:middle line:90% 01:11:50.470 --> 01:11:52.543 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: That's a fair characterization. 01:11:52.543 --> 01:11:55.320 align:middle line:90% 01:11:55.320 --> 01:11:59.690 align:middle line:84% Whistleblowing was not new in those days. 01:11:59.690 --> 01:12:04.770 align:middle line:84% Ed Layton would show the whistleblowing-- 01:12:04.770 --> 01:12:08.280 align:middle line:84% I think he traces it back to the late 19th century, 01:12:08.280 --> 01:12:09.900 align:middle line:90% but you would find it. 01:12:09.900 --> 01:12:12.075 align:middle line:90% But it was so rare and so-- 01:12:12.075 --> 01:12:15.420 align:middle line:90% 01:12:15.420 --> 01:12:19.890 align:middle line:84% it was equivalent to heresy in religion. 01:12:19.890 --> 01:12:23.370 align:middle line:84% I mean, if you did it, you'd get blackballed. 01:12:23.370 --> 01:12:27.606 align:middle line:84% And people thought of you as a terrible person. 01:12:27.606 --> 01:12:29.010 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 01:12:29.010 --> 01:12:31.550 align:middle line:90% 01:12:31.550 --> 01:12:36.065 align:middle line:84% So if the whole city of automobiles [INAUDIBLE].. 01:12:36.065 --> 01:12:38.190 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Right, you couldn't live there anymore 01:12:38.190 --> 01:12:38.940 align:middle line:90% if you blew the whistle. 01:12:38.940 --> 01:12:40.648 align:middle line:84% You couldn't go home with your neighbors, 01:12:40.648 --> 01:12:42.150 align:middle line:90% even if they were not engineers. 01:12:42.150 --> 01:12:44.460 align:middle line:84% They'd say, oh, how could you do a thing like that? 01:12:44.460 --> 01:12:47.343 align:middle line:84% The times were different, but times 01:12:47.343 --> 01:12:48.510 align:middle line:90% were changing in those days. 01:12:48.510 --> 01:12:51.120 align:middle line:90% 01:12:51.120 --> 01:12:56.250 align:middle line:84% Well, let me say that we're not done with the Ford Pinto. 01:12:56.250 --> 01:13:02.790 align:middle line:84% I want, in the next class, to come back and tell me 01:13:02.790 --> 01:13:08.400 align:middle line:84% if you're willing to take a stand on this case. 01:13:08.400 --> 01:13:09.525 align:middle line:90% Let me assign another case. 01:13:09.525 --> 01:13:12.060 align:middle line:90% 01:13:12.060 --> 01:13:14.640 align:middle line:84% On the list in the syllabus, we're at a point 01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:21.150 align:middle line:84% now where we can start picking and choosing. 01:13:21.150 --> 01:13:24.430 align:middle line:90% Do you have any preferences? 01:13:24.430 --> 01:13:29.500 align:middle line:84% We don't have to go in the order that I presented, but the Pinto 01:13:29.500 --> 01:13:31.570 align:middle line:90% is a little more-- 01:13:31.570 --> 01:13:35.770 align:middle line:84% you can see why I picked this one after A7-D. A7-D was 01:13:35.770 --> 01:13:37.570 align:middle line:90% pretty straightforward. 01:13:37.570 --> 01:13:39.670 align:middle line:90% Pinto is a little hard. 01:13:39.670 --> 01:13:43.825 align:middle line:90% 01:13:43.825 --> 01:13:46.450 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And I want to be able to say that a company shouldn't 01:13:46.450 --> 01:13:50.830 align:middle line:84% sell a car that they know is going to kill someone, but-- 01:13:50.830 --> 01:13:53.464 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: All cars. 01:13:53.464 --> 01:13:55.440 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So where's the threshold? 01:13:55.440 --> 01:14:00.080 align:middle line:84% How many deaths are allowable [INAUDIBLE]?? 01:14:00.080 --> 01:14:02.780 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And I'll tell you where 01:14:02.780 --> 01:14:07.860 align:middle line:90% I'm willing to stand on this. 01:14:07.860 --> 01:14:12.620 align:middle line:84% And I think that there are contrary stands 01:14:12.620 --> 01:14:13.460 align:middle line:90% you can take, too. 01:14:13.460 --> 01:14:16.520 align:middle line:84% I tell you what-- let's play a game. 01:14:16.520 --> 01:14:20.540 align:middle line:84% Let's start playing a game, and that is whenever I ask you 01:14:20.540 --> 01:14:24.160 align:middle line:84% or whenever you decide to take a stand, 01:14:24.160 --> 01:14:28.210 align:middle line:84% it could be a stand that you will defend because you believe 01:14:28.210 --> 01:14:32.840 align:middle line:84% in it, or you can tell us you're going to be devil's advocate. 01:14:32.840 --> 01:14:34.490 align:middle line:84% Take a stand that you don't believe in. 01:14:34.490 --> 01:14:36.717 align:middle line:90% See how far you can defend it. 01:14:36.717 --> 01:14:41.490 align:middle line:90% 01:14:41.490 --> 01:15:03.660 align:middle line:84% Well, let me see the list and let's do Chernobyl. 01:15:03.660 --> 01:15:08.110 align:middle line:84% And now, I'll tell you what, let's do two together. 01:15:08.110 --> 01:15:12.680 align:middle line:84% Let's do Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. 01:15:12.680 --> 01:15:15.080 align:middle line:84% Now, the reason for doing them together 01:15:15.080 --> 01:15:18.820 align:middle line:84% is that we can make a cultural comparison. 01:15:18.820 --> 01:15:20.000 align:middle line:90%