WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.570 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.570 --> 00:00:02.370 align:middle line:84% The following content is provided 00:00:02.370 --> 00:00:06.330 align:middle line:84% by MIT OpenCourseWare under a Creative Commons license. 00:00:06.330 --> 00:00:08.430 align:middle line:84% Additional information about our license 00:00:08.430 --> 00:00:10.800 align:middle line:84% and MIT OpenCourseWare in general 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:12.740 align:middle line:90% is available at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:12.740 --> 00:00:16.350 align:middle line:90% 00:00:16.350 --> 00:00:22.860 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: This setup, where a person could 00:00:22.860 --> 00:00:28.220 align:middle line:84% get a contract from the city to put a plow 00:00:28.220 --> 00:00:30.980 align:middle line:90% on the front of their SUV-- 00:00:30.980 --> 00:00:32.030 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Oh. 00:00:32.030 --> 00:00:34.345 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: --and plow people out of their driveways-- 00:00:34.345 --> 00:00:34.970 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:00:34.970 --> 00:00:37.100 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: --and that was free for [INAUDIBLE].. 00:00:37.100 --> 00:00:38.060 align:middle line:90% And they would get paid for it. 00:00:38.060 --> 00:00:39.935 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: They would get paid for doing that. 00:00:39.935 --> 00:00:40.460 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:43.100 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So nobody was ever late for work 00:00:43.100 --> 00:00:44.410 align:middle line:90% by reason of the-- 00:00:44.410 --> 00:00:46.285 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because you could just call someone 00:00:46.285 --> 00:00:48.380 align:middle line:90% who had an SUV with a plow. 00:00:48.380 --> 00:00:50.270 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, even better than that, 00:00:50.270 --> 00:00:53.030 align:middle line:84% you'd just go down, knock on the person's door, 00:00:53.030 --> 00:00:55.795 align:middle line:84% tell them when you want to go, and they would just 00:00:55.795 --> 00:00:56.420 align:middle line:90% automatically-- 00:00:56.420 --> 00:00:57.045 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:00:57.045 --> 00:00:59.248 align:middle line:90% 00:00:59.248 --> 00:01:00.290 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: --come and-- 00:01:00.290 --> 00:01:14.650 align:middle line:90% 00:01:14.650 --> 00:01:16.390 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:01:16.390 --> 00:01:25.825 align:middle line:84% Why don't we get started with some housekeeping issues. 00:01:25.825 --> 00:01:32.810 align:middle line:90% 00:01:32.810 --> 00:01:41.010 align:middle line:84% And first of these will be your reactions 00:01:41.010 --> 00:01:43.110 align:middle line:90% to the updated syllabus. 00:01:43.110 --> 00:01:45.860 align:middle line:90% 00:01:45.860 --> 00:01:46.670 align:middle line:90% I had that. 00:01:46.670 --> 00:01:47.510 align:middle line:90% Sorry, go ahead. 00:01:47.510 --> 00:01:48.500 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Oh, no. 00:01:48.500 --> 00:01:50.250 align:middle line:84% With the grading scheme at the end? 00:01:50.250 --> 00:01:52.250 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: With the grading scheme at the end, 00:01:52.250 --> 00:01:55.562 align:middle line:90% and took off the midterm. 00:01:55.562 --> 00:01:57.020 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Oh, I didn't notice that. 00:01:57.020 --> 00:01:57.380 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:01:57.380 --> 00:01:58.100 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I noticed that. 00:01:58.100 --> 00:01:59.267 align:middle line:90% I don't have any objections. 00:01:59.267 --> 00:02:02.750 align:middle line:84% I thought it was pretty fair, the grading. 00:02:02.750 --> 00:02:05.390 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: There's a lot of weight at the very end. 00:02:05.390 --> 00:02:07.211 align:middle line:90% I mean, that's my-- 00:02:07.211 --> 00:02:09.169 align:middle line:84% I'm not saying that's a bad thing, necessarily. 00:02:09.169 --> 00:02:13.040 align:middle line:84% But 65% is the project, which I guess just 00:02:13.040 --> 00:02:16.428 align:middle line:84% reflects the importance that you place on our independent work 00:02:16.428 --> 00:02:17.355 align:middle line:90% on that project. 00:02:17.355 --> 00:02:18.105 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:02:18.105 --> 00:02:19.860 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:02:19.860 --> 00:02:22.050 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:02:22.050 --> 00:02:25.758 align:middle line:84% For a graduate class, for graduate students, 00:02:25.758 --> 00:02:27.300 align:middle line:84% I just don't see a whole lot of point 00:02:27.300 --> 00:02:29.850 align:middle line:84% in asking you all to memorize a whole lot of terms 00:02:29.850 --> 00:02:32.400 align:middle line:84% for a midterm because anybody can do that. 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:33.750 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:02:33.750 --> 00:02:35.580 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: It'll come out, and you'll-- 00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:39.000 align:middle line:90% it'll come out in this paper. 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:40.920 align:middle line:84% What I want for you to do is to walk away 00:02:40.920 --> 00:02:46.500 align:middle line:84% from this class with as much of what we put into the class 00:02:46.500 --> 00:02:51.180 align:middle line:84% into one coherent whole that is your choice of topic. 00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:53.690 align:middle line:90% 00:02:53.690 --> 00:02:58.220 align:middle line:90% And we're going to work-- 00:02:58.220 --> 00:03:00.080 align:middle line:84% if I say work with you, that is not right. 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:01.247 align:middle line:90% We're going to work on you-- 00:03:01.247 --> 00:03:01.901 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:03:01.901 --> 00:03:04.550 align:middle line:90% --to get that thing right. 00:03:04.550 --> 00:03:12.150 align:middle line:84% So that is the importance that I put on that. 00:03:12.150 --> 00:03:12.780 align:middle line:90% Keep talking. 00:03:12.780 --> 00:03:13.780 align:middle line:90% You still got the floor. 00:03:13.780 --> 00:03:15.530 align:middle line:84% We're still doing some housekeeping issues 00:03:15.530 --> 00:03:17.880 align:middle line:90% on the syllabus. 00:03:17.880 --> 00:03:22.750 align:middle line:90% 00:03:22.750 --> 00:03:24.270 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:03:24.270 --> 00:03:25.740 align:middle line:90% This is not exactly yours. 00:03:25.740 --> 00:03:27.300 align:middle line:90% Yours is hardback. 00:03:27.300 --> 00:03:29.040 align:middle line:90% I couldn't buy a hardback. 00:03:29.040 --> 00:03:33.060 align:middle line:84% But I want to keep the one that is property of-- 00:03:33.060 --> 00:03:34.230 align:middle line:90% is that OK? 00:03:34.230 --> 00:03:36.538 align:middle line:90% Can I give this one back to you? 00:03:36.538 --> 00:03:37.580 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, I see. 00:03:37.580 --> 00:03:38.930 align:middle line:90% Because you wrote stuff in it? 00:03:38.930 --> 00:03:40.160 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: No, you wrote stuff in it. 00:03:40.160 --> 00:03:41.055 align:middle line:90% And I want to keep it. 00:03:41.055 --> 00:03:41.450 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, I see. 00:03:41.450 --> 00:03:41.950 align:middle line:90% I see. 00:03:41.950 --> 00:03:42.830 align:middle line:90% Stolen from me. 00:03:42.830 --> 00:03:43.325 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Stolen from you. 00:03:43.325 --> 00:03:44.270 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Right. 00:03:44.270 --> 00:03:45.020 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:03:45.020 --> 00:03:48.890 align:middle line:84% But when I ordered it, they didn't 00:03:48.890 --> 00:03:51.065 align:middle line:84% order-- they didn't give me the hardback. 00:03:51.065 --> 00:03:51.630 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: That's fine. 00:03:51.630 --> 00:03:52.505 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: It's OK? 00:03:52.505 --> 00:03:54.930 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: [INAUDIBLE] Thank you. 00:03:54.930 --> 00:03:56.070 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: OK. 00:03:56.070 --> 00:03:59.740 align:middle line:84% So the percentage that we're going to-- 00:03:59.740 --> 00:04:00.820 align:middle line:90% and let's see. 00:04:00.820 --> 00:04:02.638 align:middle line:90% Open up again to-- 00:04:02.638 --> 00:04:05.270 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:04:05.270 --> 00:04:07.940 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: You have it in front of you? 00:04:07.940 --> 00:04:10.660 align:middle line:90% The part where-- yeah-- 00:04:10.660 --> 00:04:13.420 align:middle line:90% 00:04:13.420 --> 00:04:16.120 align:middle line:84% the early presentation and the final presentation. 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:19.079 align:middle line:90% 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:22.910 align:middle line:84% Do you have any questions about that? 00:04:22.910 --> 00:04:25.270 align:middle line:84% So the early presentation is on the same-- 00:04:25.270 --> 00:04:27.220 align:middle line:84% it was draft one of the same thing. 00:04:27.220 --> 00:04:32.950 align:middle line:90% 00:04:32.950 --> 00:04:36.880 align:middle line:90% And there are two prep classes. 00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:41.080 align:middle line:84% So I want to have a class that pretty much gives you 00:04:41.080 --> 00:04:45.420 align:middle line:84% a higher order explanation of how 00:04:45.420 --> 00:04:48.017 align:middle line:90% to give a verbal presentation. 00:04:48.017 --> 00:04:50.100 align:middle line:84% Now, what's going to be very helpful with the prep 00:04:50.100 --> 00:04:53.010 align:middle line:84% classes are the other two faculty or any other faculty 00:04:53.010 --> 00:04:53.935 align:middle line:90% that are here. 00:04:53.935 --> 00:04:55.560 align:middle line:84% They're going to have different styles. 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:58.780 align:middle line:84% You may want to use one of these instead of one of mine. 00:04:58.780 --> 00:05:01.120 align:middle line:84% Or instead of-- yeah, I have several styles. 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:06.020 align:middle line:84% But please take advantage of that opportunity 00:05:06.020 --> 00:05:06.770 align:middle line:90% to work with them. 00:05:06.770 --> 00:05:12.950 align:middle line:90% 00:05:12.950 --> 00:05:16.040 align:middle line:84% We're going to be able to do, at some classes, more than one 00:05:16.040 --> 00:05:19.360 align:middle line:90% case study in one period. 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:21.480 align:middle line:90% So that would be ad hoc. 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:23.045 align:middle line:90% Some of them we'll get stuck on. 00:05:23.045 --> 00:05:24.420 align:middle line:84% Some we'll move straight through. 00:05:24.420 --> 00:05:26.420 align:middle line:84% But you're ready to do two of them today, right? 00:05:26.420 --> 00:05:27.610 align:middle line:90% Three of them-- 00:05:27.610 --> 00:05:29.930 align:middle line:90% A7D, Challenger. 00:05:29.930 --> 00:05:31.410 align:middle line:90% And what was the other one? 00:05:31.410 --> 00:05:33.850 align:middle line:90% Pinto. 00:05:33.850 --> 00:05:34.350 align:middle line:90% Let's see. 00:05:34.350 --> 00:05:35.850 align:middle line:84% There's another housekeeping issue. 00:05:35.850 --> 00:05:40.790 align:middle line:90% 00:05:40.790 --> 00:05:46.740 align:middle line:84% I was not able to consummate a person who-- 00:05:46.740 --> 00:05:49.080 align:middle line:90% to take over class on Thursday. 00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:52.060 align:middle line:90% I'm going to be out of town. 00:05:52.060 --> 00:05:53.960 align:middle line:90% Now, we have some options. 00:05:53.960 --> 00:05:57.820 align:middle line:84% We can get a volunteer to take the class. 00:05:57.820 --> 00:06:02.350 align:middle line:84% We can schedule a makeup class, which 00:06:02.350 --> 00:06:04.100 align:middle line:84% is what I'm accustomed to doing at Howard. 00:06:04.100 --> 00:06:07.970 align:middle line:84% We scheduled makeup classes on some time that's convenient. 00:06:07.970 --> 00:06:12.150 align:middle line:90% 00:06:12.150 --> 00:06:12.705 align:middle line:90% Any ideas? 00:06:12.705 --> 00:06:15.945 align:middle line:90% 00:06:15.945 --> 00:06:17.320 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So there's a few of us, 00:06:17.320 --> 00:06:20.190 align:middle line:84% we can probably find a time to do it. 00:06:20.190 --> 00:06:23.730 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Like for example, a Friday, or for example, 00:06:23.730 --> 00:06:25.290 align:middle line:90% during the final week. 00:06:25.290 --> 00:06:28.440 align:middle line:90% 00:06:28.440 --> 00:06:29.010 align:middle line:90% Either one? 00:06:29.010 --> 00:06:34.490 align:middle line:90% 00:06:34.490 --> 00:06:38.260 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I probably prefer a Friday earlier in the semester, 00:06:38.260 --> 00:06:40.410 align:middle line:90% if that makes-- 00:06:40.410 --> 00:06:42.155 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: OK, why don't we do this? 00:06:42.155 --> 00:06:44.280 align:middle line:84% You all are talking to each other outside of class. 00:06:44.280 --> 00:06:45.530 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: She emails me, yeah. 00:06:45.530 --> 00:06:47.447 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Come up with a couple of options. 00:06:47.447 --> 00:06:48.300 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: OK. 00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:50.835 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And then, when we get together the next time, 00:06:50.835 --> 00:06:53.460 align:middle line:84% we'll explore those options, see how many people we can get in. 00:06:53.460 --> 00:06:57.030 align:middle line:90% 00:06:57.030 --> 00:07:00.870 align:middle line:84% There's one other day when I'm going to be on travel. 00:07:00.870 --> 00:07:03.780 align:middle line:84% But that day I will promise to have somebody 00:07:03.780 --> 00:07:06.025 align:middle line:90% come in take the class. 00:07:06.025 --> 00:07:09.303 align:middle line:90% 00:07:09.303 --> 00:07:10.220 align:middle line:90% And that's all for me. 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:13.220 align:middle line:84% I won't-- I have no other plans to miss any other classes. 00:07:13.220 --> 00:07:15.368 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: So this Thursday? 00:07:15.368 --> 00:07:17.285 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: This Thursday, there is no class. 00:07:17.285 --> 00:07:22.510 align:middle line:90% 00:07:22.510 --> 00:07:23.010 align:middle line:90% Let's see. 00:07:23.010 --> 00:07:24.885 align:middle line:84% Are there any other housekeeping issues? 00:07:24.885 --> 00:07:28.420 align:middle line:90% 00:07:28.420 --> 00:07:33.520 align:middle line:84% A couple of-- before we get involved in the case studies, 00:07:33.520 --> 00:07:40.022 align:middle line:84% let's have a revisit of the last class. 00:07:40.022 --> 00:07:43.580 align:middle line:84% Let's have a revisitation to the last class. 00:07:43.580 --> 00:07:47.350 align:middle line:84% And revisit means several things. 00:07:47.350 --> 00:07:49.980 align:middle line:84% One, are there any questions you want to bring up? 00:07:49.980 --> 00:07:53.155 align:middle line:84% And second, are there any corrections 00:07:53.155 --> 00:07:54.030 align:middle line:90% that need to be made? 00:07:54.030 --> 00:07:56.670 align:middle line:84% There's one correction I want to make in something that I said. 00:07:56.670 --> 00:07:59.490 align:middle line:90% 00:07:59.490 --> 00:08:03.015 align:middle line:84% Remember, there was a question asked about is it really-- 00:08:03.015 --> 00:08:07.368 align:middle line:90% 00:08:07.368 --> 00:08:13.590 align:middle line:84% is it an end that you feel for somebody else? 00:08:13.590 --> 00:08:18.620 align:middle line:84% Or is the end really that you're feeling for yourself? 00:08:18.620 --> 00:08:23.690 align:middle line:84% And I had said, Schopenhauer gave this example of how 00:08:23.690 --> 00:08:25.070 align:middle line:90% a person cannot-- 00:08:25.070 --> 00:08:29.770 align:middle line:84% sometimes does not separate oneself from someone else. 00:08:29.770 --> 00:08:35.210 align:middle line:84% And that has-- there is a slight amendment 00:08:35.210 --> 00:08:36.740 align:middle line:84% that I would like to make to that. 00:08:36.740 --> 00:08:39.520 align:middle line:90% 00:08:39.520 --> 00:08:40.740 align:middle line:90% And it's very slight. 00:08:40.740 --> 00:08:47.150 align:middle line:84% And that is that Schopenhauer set down the theory. 00:08:47.150 --> 00:08:49.640 align:middle line:84% But it was Joseph Campbell that gave the experience. 00:08:49.640 --> 00:08:53.060 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:08:53.060 --> 00:08:56.110 align:middle line:84% And Schopenhauer did it-- hold on just a second here. 00:08:56.110 --> 00:08:57.215 align:middle line:90% I'll tell you what-- 00:08:57.215 --> 00:08:57.715 align:middle line:90% yes. 00:08:57.715 --> 00:09:00.290 align:middle line:90% 00:09:00.290 --> 00:09:07.230 align:middle line:84% Schopenhauer's book called The World As Will and Idea 00:09:07.230 --> 00:09:10.500 align:middle line:84% is full of this kind of discussion. 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:12.720 align:middle line:84% Here we go again, the will again. 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:14.303 align:middle line:90% Did you take note of that? 00:09:14.303 --> 00:09:15.720 align:middle line:84% Told you in German authors, you're 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:18.420 align:middle line:84% going to find a lot of this issue about the will. 00:09:18.420 --> 00:09:22.140 align:middle line:84% The book is a symphony of rapture 00:09:22.140 --> 00:09:24.030 align:middle line:90% dealing with this matter. 00:09:24.030 --> 00:09:26.640 align:middle line:84% He uses an image that I like to bring up 00:09:26.640 --> 00:09:31.590 align:middle line:84% in relation to this and his foundations of morality. 00:09:31.590 --> 00:09:36.120 align:middle line:84% He asks quote, "How is it that a human being can so participate 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:39.810 align:middle line:84% in the danger and peril of another, that forgetting 00:09:39.810 --> 00:09:43.200 align:middle line:84% his own self-protection, he moves spontaneously 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:47.420 align:middle line:84% to that person's rescue," end quote. 00:09:47.420 --> 00:09:51.920 align:middle line:84% "How is it that what we take to be the first law of nature, 00:09:51.920 --> 00:09:55.730 align:middle line:84% preserving this separate entity, this ego, 00:09:55.730 --> 00:09:58.670 align:middle line:90% is suddenly dissolved? 00:09:58.670 --> 00:10:04.300 align:middle line:84% And as though one were at where that other--" I'll repeat that. 00:10:04.300 --> 00:10:12.800 align:middle line:84% "As though one were that other, one acts spontaneously 00:10:12.800 --> 00:10:15.380 align:middle line:90% in the interests of that other. 00:10:15.380 --> 00:10:18.440 align:middle line:84% Even at the risk of one's own life, 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:21.890 align:middle line:84% one acts spontaneously to save a child that's 00:10:21.890 --> 00:10:24.250 align:middle line:90% about to be run over." 00:10:24.250 --> 00:10:26.560 align:middle line:84% Schopenhauer answers by saying, "This 00:10:26.560 --> 00:10:29.380 align:middle line:84% is a metaphysical realization that 00:10:29.380 --> 00:10:34.240 align:middle line:84% has broken through which is usually not there," end quote. 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:37.750 align:middle line:84% It's the realization of the universal consciousness 00:10:37.750 --> 00:10:41.290 align:middle line:84% of which we are all manifestations. 00:10:41.290 --> 00:10:47.470 align:middle line:84% Now, notice that, universal consciousness. 00:10:47.470 --> 00:10:52.690 align:middle line:84% This business of there being a oneness to the universe 00:10:52.690 --> 00:10:54.320 align:middle line:90% is going to come up. 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:55.550 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:10:55.550 --> 00:10:56.703 align:middle line:90% It's going to come up-- 00:10:56.703 --> 00:10:59.190 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: It's basically the [? mystical ?] condition 00:10:59.190 --> 00:11:02.076 align:middle line:84% that where abundance plays such a big role. 00:11:02.076 --> 00:11:04.770 align:middle line:90% And it's very German. 00:11:04.770 --> 00:11:06.570 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Very German. 00:11:06.570 --> 00:11:10.640 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: I mean, nowadays, it's much more popular. 00:11:10.640 --> 00:11:12.470 align:middle line:90% It's also very defined. 00:11:12.470 --> 00:11:15.820 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yes, it's also very defined. 00:11:15.820 --> 00:11:18.070 align:middle line:90% I just bought a book on oneness. 00:11:18.070 --> 00:11:20.620 align:middle line:90% 00:11:20.620 --> 00:11:22.960 align:middle line:84% It's-- I'll get it in the mail at some point. 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.360 align:middle line:90% I'll bring it to class. 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:26.590 align:middle line:90% It's a relatively new book. 00:11:26.590 --> 00:11:29.320 align:middle line:84% And the person who wrote it is a physicist. 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:34.920 align:middle line:84% I was out at the AAAS meeting last weekend. 00:11:34.920 --> 00:11:40.780 align:middle line:84% And they had a book sale, the display. 00:11:40.780 --> 00:11:42.370 align:middle line:90% And I bought it there. 00:11:42.370 --> 00:11:45.373 align:middle line:84% Seemed to be going quite popularly. 00:11:45.373 --> 00:11:46.540 align:middle line:90% So I'll bring that to class. 00:11:46.540 --> 00:11:49.120 align:middle line:84% But it's a physicist point of view 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:54.910 align:middle line:84% that there's a leap you can make, even in physics, that I 00:11:54.910 --> 00:11:56.985 align:middle line:84% think what he's really saying is, 00:11:56.985 --> 00:11:58.360 align:middle line:84% that some of the great physicists 00:11:58.360 --> 00:11:59.530 align:middle line:90% have already made that leap. 00:11:59.530 --> 00:12:01.780 align:middle line:84% They really think that there's something out 00:12:01.780 --> 00:12:08.060 align:middle line:84% there that's a oneness of the whole universe. 00:12:08.060 --> 00:12:11.540 align:middle line:84% And there is this discussion that I don't understand 00:12:11.540 --> 00:12:12.873 align:middle line:90% very well, and I hope you do. 00:12:12.873 --> 00:12:14.540 align:middle line:84% And if you don't, it'll be in this book. 00:12:14.540 --> 00:12:15.590 align:middle line:90% And we'll discuss it. 00:12:15.590 --> 00:12:18.380 align:middle line:84% There is this discussion out there 00:12:18.380 --> 00:12:23.550 align:middle line:84% that there are forces between every two 00:12:23.550 --> 00:12:25.110 align:middle line:90% particles in the universe. 00:12:25.110 --> 00:12:29.110 align:middle line:84% But those forces, the magnitude of those forces 00:12:29.110 --> 00:12:34.500 align:middle line:84% is independent of the distance between the particles. 00:12:34.500 --> 00:12:36.975 align:middle line:90% That's very hard to accept. 00:12:36.975 --> 00:12:41.040 align:middle line:90% 00:12:41.040 --> 00:12:42.790 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE] has something to do with that. 00:12:42.790 --> 00:12:45.700 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 00:12:45.700 --> 00:12:47.440 align:middle line:84% But nevertheless, so the correction 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:49.930 align:middle line:84% is that the actual experience of the bridge-- 00:12:49.930 --> 00:12:52.120 align:middle line:84% of the person falling over the bridge-- 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:55.000 align:middle line:84% was Joseph Campbell's experience when he was a young man. 00:12:55.000 --> 00:13:03.280 align:middle line:84% But he puts it in the context of Schopenhauer's works 00:13:03.280 --> 00:13:04.750 align:middle line:90% and justifies it there. 00:13:04.750 --> 00:13:08.660 align:middle line:90% 00:13:08.660 --> 00:13:10.370 align:middle line:90% Anything else? 00:13:10.370 --> 00:13:12.770 align:middle line:84% Doctor Ng had an issue that I don't think 00:13:12.770 --> 00:13:16.430 align:middle line:90% that I responded to thoroughly. 00:13:16.430 --> 00:13:18.803 align:middle line:84% And I would like to make it a class responsibility 00:13:18.803 --> 00:13:19.970 align:middle line:90% to respond to it thoroughly. 00:13:19.970 --> 00:13:21.470 align:middle line:84% You want to put that question again? 00:13:21.470 --> 00:13:23.850 align:middle line:90% 00:13:23.850 --> 00:13:29.320 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: We talked about Kant and how in his philosophy, 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:34.120 align:middle line:84% there were these things that were considered to be always-- 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:35.200 align:middle line:90% that held all the time. 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:37.098 align:middle line:90% I forgot what they're called. 00:13:37.098 --> 00:13:39.640 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: The imperatives, the categories and imperatives. 00:13:39.640 --> 00:13:41.880 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So if you have an imperative, 00:13:41.880 --> 00:13:45.830 align:middle line:84% then you operate by means of the imperative all the time. 00:13:45.830 --> 00:13:48.390 align:middle line:84% And I think the example we talked about had to do with, 00:13:48.390 --> 00:13:51.000 align:middle line:84% if the imperative is I will always steal, 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:55.410 align:middle line:84% then we'll reach a point where there's no more to steal. 00:13:55.410 --> 00:13:57.210 align:middle line:84% And then, therefore, the imperative-- 00:13:57.210 --> 00:14:00.290 align:middle line:84% that cannot be an imperative because destiny can't fulfill 00:14:00.290 --> 00:14:00.830 align:middle line:90% it. 00:14:00.830 --> 00:14:02.205 align:middle line:84% But then my question was, can you 00:14:02.205 --> 00:14:07.953 align:middle line:84% have an imperative, basically, I will always steal, and yet not 00:14:07.953 --> 00:14:08.870 align:middle line:90% be able to fulfill it? 00:14:08.870 --> 00:14:10.340 align:middle line:90% So is that consistent? 00:14:10.340 --> 00:14:13.450 align:middle line:84% As opposed to saying that because you can't fulfill it, 00:14:13.450 --> 00:14:14.700 align:middle line:90% you can't have the imperative? 00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:16.520 align:middle line:84% Maybe can you have the imperative, 00:14:16.520 --> 00:14:19.740 align:middle line:84% just there's no opportunity to enforce the imperative 00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:22.680 align:middle line:90% or to carry it out? 00:14:22.680 --> 00:14:26.760 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Maybe would it be fair to say that you 00:14:26.760 --> 00:14:29.490 align:middle line:90% were saying that it's logic-- 00:14:29.490 --> 00:14:33.510 align:middle line:84% it still remains logically possible, but physically, 00:14:33.510 --> 00:14:35.300 align:middle line:90% it doesn't remain possible. 00:14:35.300 --> 00:14:37.770 align:middle line:90% Is that what-- elaborate. 00:14:37.770 --> 00:14:40.660 align:middle line:90% Elaborate. 00:14:40.660 --> 00:14:41.660 align:middle line:90% Let's get some response. 00:14:41.660 --> 00:14:42.100 align:middle line:90% Anybody. 00:14:42.100 --> 00:14:42.470 align:middle line:90% Jump in. 00:14:42.470 --> 00:14:43.090 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I feel-- 00:14:43.090 --> 00:14:44.048 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Excuse me. 00:14:44.048 --> 00:14:44.710 align:middle line:90% Excuse me. 00:14:44.710 --> 00:14:45.303 align:middle line:90% Excuse me. 00:14:45.303 --> 00:14:47.470 align:middle line:84% Remember, class participation is part of your grade. 00:14:47.470 --> 00:14:51.940 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] Get in. 00:14:51.940 --> 00:14:54.130 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So my reaction to what you're saying 00:14:54.130 --> 00:14:56.230 align:middle line:84% is that the way Professor Broome presented 00:14:56.230 --> 00:14:59.980 align:middle line:84% a categorical imperative was that by definition it 00:14:59.980 --> 00:15:02.450 align:middle line:90% can always be able to be done. 00:15:02.450 --> 00:15:05.350 align:middle line:84% So the question you're posing has already 00:15:05.350 --> 00:15:08.170 align:middle line:84% been answered by defining an imperative as something 00:15:08.170 --> 00:15:10.020 align:middle line:90% that physically can be done. 00:15:10.020 --> 00:15:12.250 align:middle line:84% But now if we bring in the differentiation 00:15:12.250 --> 00:15:13.843 align:middle line:90% between logical and-- 00:15:13.843 --> 00:15:15.760 align:middle line:84% logically being able to be done and physically 00:15:15.760 --> 00:15:19.720 align:middle line:84% being able to be done, then maybe my response doesn't hold. 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:23.410 align:middle line:84% But if the definition is that a categorical imperative can 00:15:23.410 --> 00:15:26.311 align:middle line:84% always physically be done, then it 00:15:26.311 --> 00:15:32.210 align:middle line:84% seems like we can't have a categorical imperative that you 00:15:32.210 --> 00:15:34.010 align:middle line:84% just want to do but can't at that moment. 00:15:34.010 --> 00:15:38.870 align:middle line:90% 00:15:38.870 --> 00:15:40.890 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Let's keep on-- let's 00:15:40.890 --> 00:15:45.008 align:middle line:90% keep with this a little bit 00:15:45.008 --> 00:15:47.222 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Actually, I happen to like Kant. 00:15:47.222 --> 00:15:49.180 align:middle line:84% He's viewed by many as the greatest philosopher 00:15:49.180 --> 00:15:51.280 align:middle line:90% in the last 400 years. 00:15:51.280 --> 00:15:53.878 align:middle line:84% Let me give you another view of Kant. 00:15:53.878 --> 00:15:54.670 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:15:54.670 --> 00:15:57.200 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: It's in the modern era 00:15:57.200 --> 00:15:59.455 align:middle line:84% that we have a field called cognitive science-- 00:15:59.455 --> 00:16:00.205 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:16:00.205 --> 00:16:02.163 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: --trying to figure out something 00:16:02.163 --> 00:16:04.510 align:middle line:90% about how people behave. 00:16:04.510 --> 00:16:07.090 align:middle line:84% If you were to restate categorical imperatives 00:16:07.090 --> 00:16:11.440 align:middle line:84% in the following way, that people are genetically 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:13.930 align:middle line:84% predisposed to do certain things, 00:16:13.930 --> 00:16:17.065 align:middle line:84% different people are predisposed to do different things 00:16:17.065 --> 00:16:18.850 align:middle line:84% than other people, rather than make 00:16:18.850 --> 00:16:22.270 align:middle line:84% it axiomatic in the logical sense, 00:16:22.270 --> 00:16:26.620 align:middle line:84% then Kant is really the first one to actually say that. 00:16:26.620 --> 00:16:29.173 align:middle line:90% Anything like that. 00:16:29.173 --> 00:16:31.340 align:middle line:84% Of course, then genetics didn't exist in those days. 00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:34.540 align:middle line:84% It wasn't in Darwin, et cetera, et cetera, just so 00:16:34.540 --> 00:16:37.275 align:middle line:84% to say that people are predisposed-- 00:16:37.275 --> 00:16:40.410 align:middle line:84% this is not what he said, but what I [INAUDIBLE]---- 00:16:40.410 --> 00:16:46.420 align:middle line:84% to do certain things is a real significant discovery. 00:16:46.420 --> 00:16:47.990 align:middle line:90% That's my point. 00:16:47.990 --> 00:16:49.810 align:middle line:84% The other point I wanted to make is 00:16:49.810 --> 00:16:53.080 align:middle line:84% that if you look at the title of his famous book, which 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:59.750 align:middle line:84% was Critique of Pure Reason, where he's criticizing Hume. 00:16:59.750 --> 00:17:04.490 align:middle line:84% So it's how do you say that this guy is a logician when 00:17:04.490 --> 00:17:07.775 align:middle line:84% the title of this major book is a Critique of Pure Reason? 00:17:07.775 --> 00:17:11.562 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] All right, I'll just leave that one open. 00:17:11.562 --> 00:17:12.520 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: That was-- 00:17:12.520 --> 00:17:13.020 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:17:13.020 --> 00:17:15.640 align:middle line:90% 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:16.210 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:17:16.210 --> 00:17:19.210 align:middle line:84% Was he remaining-- as I say, was he 00:17:19.210 --> 00:17:21.579 align:middle line:84% remaining faithful to his discipline when he wrote that? 00:17:21.579 --> 00:17:24.438 align:middle line:90% 00:17:24.438 --> 00:17:25.480 align:middle line:90% Being a logician, anyway? 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:31.560 align:middle line:90% 00:17:31.560 --> 00:17:34.490 align:middle line:90% I don't know. 00:17:34.490 --> 00:17:36.170 align:middle line:90% I tell you what I get-- 00:17:36.170 --> 00:17:37.612 align:middle line:90% what I really think now-- 00:17:37.612 --> 00:17:38.570 align:middle line:90% listen to me carefully. 00:17:38.570 --> 00:17:42.350 align:middle line:84% I'm saying what I really think, when I get my own opinions. 00:17:42.350 --> 00:17:46.690 align:middle line:84% What I really think that Kant was after 00:17:46.690 --> 00:17:51.500 align:middle line:84% was a set of Ten Commandments for ethics. 00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:56.180 align:middle line:84% Not everything, not a long list of imperatives, 00:17:56.180 --> 00:18:00.620 align:middle line:84% but a short list, from which you could reason out 00:18:00.620 --> 00:18:05.540 align:middle line:90% your ethical choices. 00:18:05.540 --> 00:18:10.430 align:middle line:84% I really think he was looking for a short list of very snap-- 00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:11.510 align:middle line:90% short snappy statements. 00:18:11.510 --> 00:18:14.370 align:middle line:90% Do this, don't do that. 00:18:14.370 --> 00:18:16.830 align:middle line:84% When I was in army, that's the way it was. 00:18:16.830 --> 00:18:19.500 align:middle line:84% Believe it or not, there were 10 rules-- 00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:22.530 align:middle line:84% not 11, not nine, there were 10 rules 00:18:22.530 --> 00:18:28.100 align:middle line:90% of how to survive in combat. 00:18:28.100 --> 00:18:30.110 align:middle line:84% One was-- I only remember one of them-- 00:18:30.110 --> 00:18:32.960 align:middle line:84% never let the enemy encircle you. 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.760 align:middle line:84% Well, you see, the enemy might encircle you 00:18:35.760 --> 00:18:36.980 align:middle line:90% no matter what you do. 00:18:36.980 --> 00:18:39.620 align:middle line:84% It goes back to what Dr. Ng was saying. 00:18:39.620 --> 00:18:42.320 align:middle line:84% Nevertheless, there is this compulsion, 00:18:42.320 --> 00:18:46.370 align:middle line:84% there's something that really works for us when you can just 00:18:46.370 --> 00:18:53.280 align:middle line:84% lay out that magic number, 10 do's and don'ts. 00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:54.750 align:middle line:90% Everybody can remember them. 00:18:54.750 --> 00:18:56.820 align:middle line:90% And they try to live by them. 00:18:56.820 --> 00:18:58.530 align:middle line:84% Now, let me make a few comments on that. 00:18:58.530 --> 00:19:01.560 align:middle line:90% 00:19:01.560 --> 00:19:04.600 align:middle line:84% I was reading someplace where even 00:19:04.600 --> 00:19:12.800 align:middle line:84% Kant said that you want to set up a life pattern using 00:19:12.800 --> 00:19:16.050 align:middle line:90% these categories. 00:19:16.050 --> 00:19:18.630 align:middle line:84% And that guide you when you're walking down the street, 00:19:18.630 --> 00:19:21.300 align:middle line:84% if a kid jumps across the street, 00:19:21.300 --> 00:19:23.490 align:middle line:84% you know automatically what to do. 00:19:23.490 --> 00:19:26.043 align:middle line:84% But a lot of your problems are going 00:19:26.043 --> 00:19:27.710 align:middle line:84% to be the ones that you're going to have 00:19:27.710 --> 00:19:31.100 align:middle line:84% to sit down and look at as particular cases, 00:19:31.100 --> 00:19:34.640 align:middle line:90% particular physical cases. 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.360 align:middle line:84% So he did give that away, that both of-- there's 00:19:37.360 --> 00:19:39.400 align:middle line:84% a place for both of them in a person's life. 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:44.132 align:middle line:90% 00:19:44.132 --> 00:19:46.700 align:middle line:84% So I think that a good life is one that can 00:19:46.700 --> 00:19:48.250 align:middle line:90% find a way to use both of them. 00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:56.930 align:middle line:90% 00:19:56.930 --> 00:19:58.737 align:middle line:90% Let's see. 00:19:58.737 --> 00:20:00.570 align:middle line:84% There was something else I was going to say. 00:20:00.570 --> 00:20:02.645 align:middle line:84% But when I get the spirit, I'll just say it. 00:20:02.645 --> 00:20:04.110 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] It'll come later. 00:20:04.110 --> 00:20:07.200 align:middle line:84% How about we get back into some of these cases? 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.550 align:middle line:90% 00:20:10.550 --> 00:20:12.470 align:middle line:84% Let's make a few remarks to end up. 00:20:12.470 --> 00:20:14.345 align:middle line:84% And then you all want to give me some-- 00:20:14.345 --> 00:20:16.795 align:middle line:90% a homework, don't you? 00:20:16.795 --> 00:20:18.170 align:middle line:84% How do you want to give it to me? 00:20:18.170 --> 00:20:19.660 align:middle line:90% Your hard copy? 00:20:19.660 --> 00:20:20.160 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:21.440 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:22.340 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:20:22.340 --> 00:20:24.200 align:middle line:90% Let me have them. 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:27.980 align:middle line:90% And I'll work on these. 00:20:27.980 --> 00:20:30.640 align:middle line:90% 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:31.750 align:middle line:90% Let's see. 00:20:31.750 --> 00:20:36.870 align:middle line:84% Since we don't have class Thursday, 00:20:36.870 --> 00:20:42.510 align:middle line:84% I can probably send comments back over the weekend on email. 00:20:42.510 --> 00:20:49.650 align:middle line:84% And let me see if we can't make a few comments on this 00:20:49.650 --> 00:20:50.770 align:middle line:90% while we're at it. 00:20:50.770 --> 00:20:56.420 align:middle line:84% One is that how did you treat the point that if you 00:20:56.420 --> 00:21:01.530 align:middle line:84% use a utilitarian approach on A7D, 00:21:01.530 --> 00:21:06.900 align:middle line:84% the fact remains that nobody actually got hurt. 00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:09.840 align:middle line:84% How do you treat the issue that if I 00:21:09.840 --> 00:21:19.540 align:middle line:84% am Kermit Vandivier, and my boss tells me to falsify this data, 00:21:19.540 --> 00:21:21.670 align:middle line:84% and I say, but that's telling a lie. 00:21:21.670 --> 00:21:25.600 align:middle line:84% And then, he comes back and says, well, 00:21:25.600 --> 00:21:30.010 align:middle line:84% no matter what, the military rules are, 00:21:30.010 --> 00:21:31.990 align:middle line:84% nobody's going to get hurt in this. 00:21:31.990 --> 00:21:33.760 align:middle line:90% Comes close enough. 00:21:33.760 --> 00:21:34.960 align:middle line:90% Nobody's going to get hurt. 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:36.170 align:middle line:90% How do you react to that? 00:21:36.170 --> 00:21:37.930 align:middle line:84% How did you react to it and how do you-- 00:21:37.930 --> 00:21:41.950 align:middle line:84% and how would you recommend that the rest of us act to that? 00:21:41.950 --> 00:21:46.295 align:middle line:84% Does utilitarianism fail us here? 00:21:46.295 --> 00:21:51.265 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I-- never having done ethical analysis 00:21:51.265 --> 00:21:54.720 align:middle line:84% before, I didn't know what to do with the fact 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:56.730 align:middle line:84% that we already knew the results. 00:21:56.730 --> 00:21:57.490 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:21:57.490 --> 00:22:00.030 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And we knew insider information 00:22:00.030 --> 00:22:02.178 align:middle line:84% that the main character in the case didn't know. 00:22:02.178 --> 00:22:02.970 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:05.910 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So what I decided to do was to narrow the scope 00:22:05.910 --> 00:22:12.150 align:middle line:84% and just do the ethical analysis as if Lawson or Vandivier were 00:22:12.150 --> 00:22:13.750 align:middle line:90% making that decision. 00:22:13.750 --> 00:22:17.923 align:middle line:84% And so they didn't have knowledge-- 00:22:17.923 --> 00:22:19.340 align:middle line:84% at that point in time, they didn't 00:22:19.340 --> 00:22:22.790 align:middle line:84% know that the brakes wouldn't be installed 00:22:22.790 --> 00:22:25.348 align:middle line:84% or that they wouldn't [INAUDIBLE].. 00:22:25.348 --> 00:22:26.640 align:middle line:90% So that's how I chose to do it. 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:28.630 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Fine. 00:22:28.630 --> 00:22:30.630 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But then, that was one of the problems 00:22:30.630 --> 00:22:35.130 align:middle line:84% because after the fact, we do know that no one was hurt. 00:22:35.130 --> 00:22:38.090 align:middle line:90% So the greatest utility-- 00:22:38.090 --> 00:22:40.465 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I actually did the same thing personally. 00:22:40.465 --> 00:22:40.730 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Really? 00:22:40.730 --> 00:22:43.160 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I assumed that we didn't know the outcome. 00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:46.330 align:middle line:84% And it was just more about that one decision they had to make. 00:22:46.330 --> 00:22:49.800 align:middle line:84% And I really felt like utilitarianism kind 00:22:49.800 --> 00:22:51.850 align:middle line:90% of failed in that sense. 00:22:51.850 --> 00:22:56.310 align:middle line:84% I mean, I think for probably many engineering cases, 00:22:56.310 --> 00:23:01.415 align:middle line:84% it's probably not the best approach to take, I felt, 00:23:01.415 --> 00:23:03.540 align:middle line:84% number one, because there are so many uncertainties 00:23:03.540 --> 00:23:04.350 align:middle line:90% to the outcomes. 00:23:04.350 --> 00:23:06.220 align:middle line:84% I mean, so there are probably not 00:23:06.220 --> 00:23:08.377 align:middle line:84% too many engineering projects when you can say, 00:23:08.377 --> 00:23:10.210 align:middle line:84% these are the costs, these are the benefits. 00:23:10.210 --> 00:23:11.270 align:middle line:90% This is what will happen. 00:23:11.270 --> 00:23:13.838 align:middle line:84% There's so many things that you don't really know. 00:23:13.838 --> 00:23:15.130 align:middle line:90% And in retrospect, it was nice. 00:23:15.130 --> 00:23:16.963 align:middle line:84% We can say, OK, it didn't turn out that bad. 00:23:16.963 --> 00:23:19.570 align:middle line:84% But if they're making that decision then had a problem, 00:23:19.570 --> 00:23:21.283 align:middle line:84% we don't really know what could happen, 00:23:21.283 --> 00:23:22.700 align:middle line:84% what could happen to these brakes. 00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:25.230 align:middle line:84% They could skid off the runway, people could be killed. 00:23:25.230 --> 00:23:27.453 align:middle line:90% We don't really know. 00:23:27.453 --> 00:23:28.120 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:23:28.120 --> 00:23:29.890 align:middle line:90% There's costs and benefits. 00:23:29.890 --> 00:23:32.412 align:middle line:84% But each of those costs are met by a sense of probability-- 00:23:32.412 --> 00:23:32.790 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Exactly. 00:23:32.790 --> 00:23:34.748 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: --whether or not it actually happens. 00:23:34.748 --> 00:23:37.650 align:middle line:90% 00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:41.040 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So therefore, it seems that utilitarianism 00:23:41.040 --> 00:23:46.530 align:middle line:84% is going to be a way of looking at the world where you 00:23:46.530 --> 00:23:50.470 align:middle line:90% can resort to probabilities. 00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:55.133 align:middle line:84% Where as the categorical imperative is either A or B. 00:23:55.133 --> 00:23:55.800 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:23:55.800 --> 00:23:58.960 align:middle line:90% 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.950 align:middle line:84% That's why the categorical-- the [INAUDIBLE] approach 00:24:02.950 --> 00:24:07.420 align:middle line:84% or the principle-based approach for me in this analysis seemed 00:24:07.420 --> 00:24:10.270 align:middle line:84% less shaky in terms of coming to a conclusion because I could 00:24:10.270 --> 00:24:10.780 align:middle line:90% just say-- 00:24:10.780 --> 00:24:11.050 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Don't lie. 00:24:11.050 --> 00:24:11.740 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:12.580 align:middle line:90% Don't lie. 00:24:12.580 --> 00:24:16.572 align:middle line:84% Or in my case, yeah, don't endanger-- 00:24:16.572 --> 00:24:18.780 align:middle line:84% don't infringe on the right of someone to their life. 00:24:18.780 --> 00:24:21.420 align:middle line:90% 00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:23.270 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: There is an-- 00:24:23.270 --> 00:24:25.700 align:middle line:84% have we satisfied or satisfactory 00:24:25.700 --> 00:24:32.170 align:middle line:84% treated your question, Dr. Ng, because I'm jumping around 00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:33.160 align:middle line:90% here a little bit? 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:35.696 align:middle line:90% 00:24:35.696 --> 00:24:41.650 align:middle line:84% I want to play one more game with the A7D case. 00:24:41.650 --> 00:24:46.040 align:middle line:90% 00:24:46.040 --> 00:24:47.600 align:middle line:84% And let's play-- and this is a game 00:24:47.600 --> 00:24:53.300 align:middle line:84% that comes up a lot with utilitarianism in engineering. 00:24:53.300 --> 00:24:55.790 align:middle line:84% You don't find it so much in science. 00:24:55.790 --> 00:25:00.020 align:middle line:84% And that is that the person who's making the decision 00:25:00.020 --> 00:25:05.480 align:middle line:84% is making the decision in a very large, powerful, hierarchical 00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:12.340 align:middle line:84% environment, where he or she is somewhere down in the middle 00:25:12.340 --> 00:25:15.140 align:middle line:90% towards the end bottom. 00:25:15.140 --> 00:25:19.068 align:middle line:84% And so the question then becomes, is the decision-maker 00:25:19.068 --> 00:25:20.860 align:middle line:84% and I'm going to put this question to you-- 00:25:20.860 --> 00:25:23.290 align:middle line:84% is the decision-maker one of the affected 00:25:23.290 --> 00:25:26.360 align:middle line:90% parties to his or her decision? 00:25:26.360 --> 00:25:29.690 align:middle line:84% I will tell you how that gets to be a big issue. 00:25:29.690 --> 00:25:34.300 align:middle line:84% This is what they call whistle blowing case. 00:25:34.300 --> 00:25:38.440 align:middle line:84% In engineering ethics, I think we will not 00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:42.260 align:middle line:84% find any category of problems that 00:25:42.260 --> 00:25:49.850 align:middle line:84% is as great of an issue in terms of hostility 00:25:49.850 --> 00:25:54.560 align:middle line:84% that engineers can have for one another than whistle blowing. 00:25:54.560 --> 00:25:56.840 align:middle line:84% This business of loyalty to the corporation, 00:25:56.840 --> 00:26:03.530 align:middle line:84% or to your employer, or to your client, it's a big deal. 00:26:03.530 --> 00:26:05.390 align:middle line:90% So the question then-- 00:26:05.390 --> 00:26:10.287 align:middle line:84% the issue comes up called blackballing. 00:26:10.287 --> 00:26:12.370 align:middle line:84% That's a formal term and it's one word, blackball. 00:26:12.370 --> 00:26:15.370 align:middle line:90% 00:26:15.370 --> 00:26:22.560 align:middle line:84% What that means is that this invisible power 00:26:22.560 --> 00:26:26.690 align:middle line:84% structure in engineering practice that 00:26:26.690 --> 00:26:31.770 align:middle line:84% runs from this employer, to that client, to that employer, 00:26:31.770 --> 00:26:38.370 align:middle line:84% is one in which it can punish a whistleblower by saying, 00:26:38.370 --> 00:26:42.160 align:middle line:84% you'll never get another job after you've blown the whistle. 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:44.220 align:middle line:90% There is some structure to that. 00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:46.810 align:middle line:90% And it's called the resume. 00:26:46.810 --> 00:26:49.370 align:middle line:84% That when you go from one job to another, 00:26:49.370 --> 00:26:50.600 align:middle line:90% you have to send your resume. 00:26:50.600 --> 00:26:54.520 align:middle line:84% And you have to have some persons from your other job 00:26:54.520 --> 00:26:58.880 align:middle line:84% to make some-- have to give some references. 00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:00.590 align:middle line:84% So they called back to that person. 00:27:00.590 --> 00:27:05.580 align:middle line:84% That person says, oh, she blew the whistle on us. 00:27:05.580 --> 00:27:09.570 align:middle line:84% And they say, well, we looked at your application. 00:27:09.570 --> 00:27:12.592 align:middle line:84% It looks very good, but we decided on someone else. 00:27:12.592 --> 00:27:15.050 align:middle line:84% And then, after a while, you'll see a pattern in your life. 00:27:15.050 --> 00:27:19.020 align:middle line:84% And that turns out to be a very stressful pattern. 00:27:19.020 --> 00:27:20.660 align:middle line:90% So is it fair? 00:27:20.660 --> 00:27:25.090 align:middle line:84% Is it right for the decision-maker 00:27:25.090 --> 00:27:28.660 align:middle line:84% if that person wants to use utilitarianism 00:27:28.660 --> 00:27:33.400 align:middle line:84% to consider him or herself as an affected party? 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:35.710 align:middle line:84% Is that a legitimate thing to do in utilitarianism? 00:27:35.710 --> 00:27:43.060 align:middle line:90% 00:27:43.060 --> 00:27:45.520 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: My understanding of utilitarianism 00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:50.200 align:middle line:84% is that it includes the person making the decision, that when 00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:55.544 align:middle line:84% you talk about the greatest utility from affected parties, 00:27:55.544 --> 00:27:59.610 align:middle line:84% nothing in that seems to me that it rules out yourself as being 00:27:59.610 --> 00:28:02.020 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE]. 00:28:02.020 --> 00:28:03.935 align:middle line:84% And maybe the problem is utilitarianism 00:28:03.935 --> 00:28:07.327 align:middle line:84% is supposed to just focus on this general audience. 00:28:07.327 --> 00:28:09.785 align:middle line:84% It's just that most people place more value on themselves-- 00:28:09.785 --> 00:28:10.363 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:28:10.363 --> 00:28:12.405 align:middle line:84% --than probably the other people in the audience. 00:28:12.405 --> 00:28:15.208 align:middle line:84% So maybe think about it the same way. 00:28:15.208 --> 00:28:15.958 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:28:15.958 --> 00:28:18.570 align:middle line:90% 00:28:18.570 --> 00:28:20.380 align:middle line:84% Well, let me ask you to do something. 00:28:20.380 --> 00:28:20.880 align:middle line:90% Let's see. 00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:21.990 align:middle line:90% How can we do this? 00:28:21.990 --> 00:28:25.080 align:middle line:90% 00:28:25.080 --> 00:28:29.540 align:middle line:90% Suppose I am Vandivier. 00:28:29.540 --> 00:28:37.140 align:middle line:90% 00:28:37.140 --> 00:28:42.240 align:middle line:84% And suppose one of the pilots out there is your son. 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:46.030 align:middle line:90% 00:28:46.030 --> 00:28:47.470 align:middle line:84% And I say that, well, if I make-- 00:28:47.470 --> 00:28:52.325 align:middle line:84% if I don't tell this lie, I will get blackballed. 00:28:52.325 --> 00:28:53.450 align:middle line:90% How do you feel about that? 00:28:53.450 --> 00:28:54.825 align:middle line:84% Do you think that I have a claim? 00:28:54.825 --> 00:29:01.842 align:middle line:90% 00:29:01.842 --> 00:29:03.300 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think if it's my child, 00:29:03.300 --> 00:29:04.680 align:middle line:90% I don't think you have a claim. 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:05.472 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:29:05.472 --> 00:29:07.630 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And maybe that's the problem 00:29:07.630 --> 00:29:10.420 align:middle line:84% because everybody has certain biases. 00:29:10.420 --> 00:29:13.660 align:middle line:84% And everyone has a way of saying general overall good 00:29:13.660 --> 00:29:16.570 align:middle line:84% because if my son dies, the overall good in the world 00:29:16.570 --> 00:29:19.450 align:middle line:90% has dropped. 00:29:19.450 --> 00:29:21.200 align:middle line:84% And then for you, you still have your job. 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:24.980 align:middle line:84% Maybe you experience some kind of financial gain. 00:29:24.980 --> 00:29:29.490 align:middle line:90% So maybe our perception-- 00:29:29.490 --> 00:29:31.680 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: What I'm going to do at this point 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:37.950 align:middle line:84% is tell you that this is where John Stuart Mill fits in 00:29:37.950 --> 00:29:39.960 align:middle line:84% and why he-- and my judgment is why 00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:42.720 align:middle line:84% he gets more credit for utilitarianism than Bentham. 00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:46.890 align:middle line:84% And even all the way back to Plato, why it is. 00:29:46.890 --> 00:29:50.085 align:middle line:84% And that is John Stuart Mill goes 00:29:50.085 --> 00:29:51.210 align:middle line:90% into that kind of question. 00:29:51.210 --> 00:29:55.680 align:middle line:84% What really counts as the maximum good? 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:59.760 align:middle line:84% Is good really a matter of feeling good or is there 00:29:59.760 --> 00:30:03.580 align:middle line:90% something that's different? 00:30:03.580 --> 00:30:06.630 align:middle line:84% Is there something about worth feeling 00:30:06.630 --> 00:30:09.990 align:middle line:84% that you've done something of worth that doesn't necessarily 00:30:09.990 --> 00:30:14.320 align:middle line:84% make you feel happy, but what does it make you feel? 00:30:14.320 --> 00:30:20.430 align:middle line:84% So try to pick up something that John Stuart Mill has written 00:30:20.430 --> 00:30:23.160 align:middle line:84% or that somebody comments on John Stuart Mill 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:26.960 align:middle line:84% and go into some detail about the happiness principle 00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:28.960 align:middle line:84% because he takes into account all of these kinds 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:30.310 align:middle line:90% of ramifications. 00:30:30.310 --> 00:30:33.450 align:middle line:90% 00:30:33.450 --> 00:30:39.610 align:middle line:84% How about-- let's look at another case. 00:30:39.610 --> 00:30:42.080 align:middle line:90% Want to do the Challenger? 00:30:42.080 --> 00:30:45.130 align:middle line:90% Let's do the Challenger. 00:30:45.130 --> 00:30:45.930 align:middle line:90% Let's see. 00:30:45.930 --> 00:30:52.620 align:middle line:84% Give us a recapitulation of the case, someone, some two 00:30:52.620 --> 00:30:53.120 align:middle line:90% persons. 00:30:53.120 --> 00:30:56.970 align:middle line:90% 00:30:56.970 --> 00:30:58.680 align:middle line:84% What-- give us the time of the day, 00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:00.742 align:middle line:90% what happened in that case. 00:31:00.742 --> 00:31:02.700 align:middle line:84% Act as though the rest of us really don't know. 00:31:02.700 --> 00:31:18.138 align:middle line:90% 00:31:18.138 --> 00:31:20.628 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:31:20.628 --> 00:31:28.600 align:middle line:90% 00:31:28.600 --> 00:31:30.520 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Go ahead. 00:31:30.520 --> 00:31:37.030 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So my-- what I recall is that an employee 00:31:37.030 --> 00:31:39.855 align:middle line:84% for the company Morton Thiokol maybe-- 00:31:39.855 --> 00:31:40.730 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Thiokol. 00:31:40.730 --> 00:31:41.372 align:middle line:90% Thiokol. 00:31:41.372 --> 00:31:45.260 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: --Thiokol that manufactured 00:31:45.260 --> 00:31:51.140 align:middle line:84% the O-rings, that seal in between the fuel sections, 00:31:51.140 --> 00:31:54.680 align:middle line:84% knew that they did not have any evidence 00:31:54.680 --> 00:31:59.000 align:middle line:84% to prove that the O-rings were safe at low temperatures. 00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:04.870 align:middle line:84% And the launch was to take place very early 00:32:04.870 --> 00:32:08.680 align:middle line:84% in the morning in January in Florida. 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:12.030 align:middle line:84% And it was unseasonably cold, like in the 20s. 00:32:12.030 --> 00:32:13.610 align:middle line:84% And he knew that there was a chance 00:32:13.610 --> 00:32:17.430 align:middle line:90% that the rings would fail. 00:32:17.430 --> 00:32:24.970 align:middle line:84% And so he urged his managers to prevent NASA 00:32:24.970 --> 00:32:28.410 align:middle line:84% from launching-- from doing the launch. 00:32:28.410 --> 00:32:33.565 align:middle line:84% But NASA really wanted the success of the launch. 00:32:33.565 --> 00:32:36.760 align:middle line:84% So they needed it to go ahead on time. 00:32:36.760 --> 00:32:40.330 align:middle line:84% And the managers wanted to continue their relationship 00:32:40.330 --> 00:32:42.440 align:middle line:84% with NASA and the lab for that success to happen. 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.890 align:middle line:84% And also, they overruled this engineer. 00:32:44.890 --> 00:32:47.830 align:middle line:90% 00:32:47.830 --> 00:32:52.016 align:middle line:84% And the launch happened, the O-ring failed, 00:32:52.016 --> 00:32:53.952 align:middle line:90% and the explosion occurred. 00:32:53.952 --> 00:32:56.856 align:middle line:90% 00:32:56.856 --> 00:32:59.760 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:32:59.760 --> 00:33:01.970 align:middle line:84% Miss Ratliff, do you want to add something to that, 00:33:01.970 --> 00:33:04.182 align:middle line:84% or correct-- or not correct, but change 00:33:04.182 --> 00:33:05.390 align:middle line:90% your view on something there? 00:33:05.390 --> 00:33:07.610 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: No, I think Krista stated it very well. 00:33:07.610 --> 00:33:09.907 align:middle line:84% But I think there's a well-known quote. 00:33:09.907 --> 00:33:10.990 align:middle line:90% I'm going to get it wrong. 00:33:10.990 --> 00:33:13.970 align:middle line:84% But I think the management tells the engineer 00:33:13.970 --> 00:33:15.236 align:middle line:90% to put on his management hat. 00:33:15.236 --> 00:33:15.690 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: There. 00:33:15.690 --> 00:33:16.190 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:33:16.190 --> 00:33:17.885 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Ah, the famous line. 00:33:17.885 --> 00:33:18.635 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:33:18.635 --> 00:33:20.200 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And so it really kind of-- 00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:24.550 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Go into some detail on that, please. 00:33:24.550 --> 00:33:27.980 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Right, because he goes in saying, don't launch. 00:33:27.980 --> 00:33:29.210 align:middle line:90% We don't need to do this. 00:33:29.210 --> 00:33:30.880 align:middle line:90% We don't have sufficient data. 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:32.035 align:middle line:90% And then he-- 00:33:32.035 --> 00:33:33.490 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Excuse me. 00:33:33.490 --> 00:33:37.490 align:middle line:84% We're talking about the vice president for engineering. 00:33:37.490 --> 00:33:40.970 align:middle line:84% And he's sitting at a table with some of the other vice 00:33:40.970 --> 00:33:44.050 align:middle line:90% presidents and the president. 00:33:44.050 --> 00:33:46.000 align:middle line:84% And he gives his opinion that says, don't fly. 00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:47.791 align:middle line:90% And keep going. 00:33:47.791 --> 00:33:50.897 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And I guess these various reasons. 00:33:50.897 --> 00:33:52.230 align:middle line:90% And then, that's their response. 00:33:52.230 --> 00:33:53.600 align:middle line:90% Put on your management hat. 00:33:53.600 --> 00:33:56.694 align:middle line:84% If you are a manager, see it from our point of view. 00:33:56.694 --> 00:33:57.486 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:33:57.486 --> 00:33:59.310 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: We have to do this. 00:33:59.310 --> 00:34:01.172 align:middle line:90% And eventually, he says, OK. 00:34:01.172 --> 00:34:02.130 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: All right. 00:34:02.130 --> 00:34:03.420 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:08.100 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Now, remember when we talked about story terms, 00:34:08.100 --> 00:34:15.260 align:middle line:84% I said, the causative sequence, the point, the point of view? 00:34:15.260 --> 00:34:15.860 align:middle line:90% You see? 00:34:15.860 --> 00:34:21.710 align:middle line:84% And we talked a little bit about Moby Dick and how it starts-- 00:34:21.710 --> 00:34:24.230 align:middle line:84% the first words establish the point of view. 00:34:24.230 --> 00:34:25.429 align:middle line:90% Call me Ishmael. 00:34:25.429 --> 00:34:28.760 align:middle line:84% Now you know the whole story unfolds 00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:31.100 align:middle line:90% through that person's eyes. 00:34:31.100 --> 00:34:34.580 align:middle line:84% I can't think of a better case where a point of view 00:34:34.580 --> 00:34:37.328 align:middle line:84% can really change how you look at something that just 00:34:37.328 --> 00:34:38.870 align:middle line:84% change-- put on your mind management, 00:34:38.870 --> 00:34:41.929 align:middle line:84% take off your management, put on the other hat. 00:34:41.929 --> 00:34:43.830 align:middle line:90% There's a point of view in it. 00:34:43.830 --> 00:34:45.620 align:middle line:90% So now, the question then-- 00:34:45.620 --> 00:34:47.360 align:middle line:84% another question comes up about this 00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:50.239 align:middle line:84% is, that before we get into it, and I want you to address this, 00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:57.500 align:middle line:84% is whether or not a practicing engineer should 00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:01.200 align:middle line:84% obey a different moral code from the manager. 00:35:01.200 --> 00:35:07.710 align:middle line:90% 00:35:07.710 --> 00:35:09.460 align:middle line:84% Better stated, of the engineering manager. 00:35:09.460 --> 00:35:12.040 align:middle line:84% Is there something different about their ethical 00:35:12.040 --> 00:35:16.300 align:middle line:84% responsibilities or do they have the same responsibilities? 00:35:16.300 --> 00:35:18.655 align:middle line:90% Let's see. 00:35:18.655 --> 00:35:22.990 align:middle line:84% Let's put some flesh around those bones. 00:35:22.990 --> 00:35:26.230 align:middle line:90% 00:35:26.230 --> 00:35:27.180 align:middle line:90% Let me see. 00:35:27.180 --> 00:35:29.190 align:middle line:90% Do you all remember that day? 00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:32.560 align:middle line:84% What were you all doing that day? 00:35:32.560 --> 00:35:34.450 align:middle line:84% Some of us old people can remember that day 00:35:34.450 --> 00:35:35.575 align:middle line:90% just like it was yesterday. 00:35:35.575 --> 00:35:38.218 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I remember coming home from school. 00:35:38.218 --> 00:35:39.760 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Coming home from school? 00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:41.950 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [LAUGHS] Yeah. 00:35:41.950 --> 00:35:43.840 align:middle line:84% I just remember the scene on the TV. 00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:46.810 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Now, that's another thing that you all can-- 00:35:46.810 --> 00:35:49.000 align:middle line:84% they played it on television again. 00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:49.662 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:35:49.662 --> 00:35:51.370 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Again, and again, and again. 00:35:51.370 --> 00:35:54.490 align:middle line:90% 00:35:54.490 --> 00:35:58.960 align:middle line:84% Did it numb your senses at all to see it over, and over, 00:35:58.960 --> 00:35:59.560 align:middle line:90% and over? 00:35:59.560 --> 00:36:02.080 align:middle line:90% 00:36:02.080 --> 00:36:04.480 align:middle line:90% Or did it do something else? 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:07.545 align:middle line:90% How do you feel about it? 00:36:07.545 --> 00:36:08.420 align:middle line:90% Do you remember this? 00:36:08.420 --> 00:36:10.090 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: No, I was just five years old, 00:36:10.090 --> 00:36:11.700 align:middle line:90% so I didn't have that-- 00:36:11.700 --> 00:36:12.867 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Five years old. 00:36:12.867 --> 00:36:14.160 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:36:14.160 --> 00:36:15.810 align:middle line:84% Well, I remember that day very well. 00:36:15.810 --> 00:36:20.336 align:middle line:90% 00:36:20.336 --> 00:36:22.747 align:middle line:84% When it happened, I was in the library. 00:36:22.747 --> 00:36:23.741 align:middle line:90% [KNOCKING] 00:36:23.741 --> 00:36:26.150 align:middle line:84% Is there somebody over there at the door? 00:36:26.150 --> 00:36:26.720 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:36:26.720 --> 00:36:27.820 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah, come in. 00:36:27.820 --> 00:36:29.945 align:middle line:84% When it happened, I was at the Library of Congress. 00:36:29.945 --> 00:36:32.580 align:middle line:90% 00:36:32.580 --> 00:36:35.460 align:middle line:84% And I was sitting in the reading room 00:36:35.460 --> 00:36:42.200 align:middle line:84% in the technology building, the Jefferson Building. 00:36:42.200 --> 00:36:45.030 align:middle line:84% Not exactly a large reading room as the Library of Congress 00:36:45.030 --> 00:36:49.290 align:middle line:84% goes, but maybe the second or third largest. 00:36:49.290 --> 00:36:52.500 align:middle line:84% And I'm just sitting there reading. 00:36:52.500 --> 00:37:00.610 align:middle line:84% And librarians in the Library of Congress 00:37:00.610 --> 00:37:03.520 align:middle line:84% tried to be as unhelpful to a reader as they can be. 00:37:03.520 --> 00:37:09.080 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] Can be very-- 00:37:09.080 --> 00:37:10.850 align:middle line:84% unless you've come there to use-- 00:37:10.850 --> 00:37:13.670 align:middle line:84% unless you're going there to use a rare book division, 00:37:13.670 --> 00:37:17.890 align:middle line:84% or unless you were there from a Congress person, 00:37:17.890 --> 00:37:19.400 align:middle line:90% just sitting on the floor. 00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:22.720 align:middle line:84% But this day, this librarian yells out 00:37:22.720 --> 00:37:26.150 align:middle line:84% in front of everybody, and says, Dr. Broome. 00:37:26.150 --> 00:37:28.000 align:middle line:84% I don't know how they knew my name. 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:29.620 align:middle line:90% They said-- I think I know. 00:37:29.620 --> 00:37:31.600 align:middle line:90% They described me. 00:37:31.600 --> 00:37:33.320 align:middle line:84% They said, they want you on television. 00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:36.942 align:middle line:84% And I'm thinking-- well, Howard has a TV station. 00:37:36.942 --> 00:37:39.660 align:middle line:90% 00:37:39.660 --> 00:37:41.760 align:middle line:90% So I run down there. 00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:44.880 align:middle line:84% And they're putting on the microphones. 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:46.380 align:middle line:90% And it was a live show. 00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:49.160 align:middle line:90% 00:37:49.160 --> 00:37:51.980 align:middle line:84% And I said, well, what am I-- they said, 00:37:51.980 --> 00:37:56.780 align:middle line:84% the Dean had given them my name because I had a NASA grant. 00:37:56.780 --> 00:37:58.750 align:middle line:90% I said, OK, what's going on? 00:37:58.750 --> 00:38:00.550 align:middle line:90% They said, we'll show you. 00:38:00.550 --> 00:38:02.140 align:middle line:90% I saw the-- 00:38:02.140 --> 00:38:05.260 align:middle line:84% I saw the film two minutes before I 00:38:05.260 --> 00:38:07.975 align:middle line:84% was supposed to comment on it and take phone calls. 00:38:07.975 --> 00:38:11.050 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] And I sat there. 00:38:11.050 --> 00:38:13.930 align:middle line:84% And they played it one more time for me. 00:38:13.930 --> 00:38:16.000 align:middle line:84% What I got fixated on when they showed 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:24.130 align:middle line:84% it was the pictures of the people in the audience, 00:38:24.130 --> 00:38:28.000 align:middle line:84% the parents, as they saw the thing 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.400 align:middle line:84% explode because they showed it twice. 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:34.360 align:middle line:84% They showed it once where the focus was all on the shuttle. 00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:36.670 align:middle line:84% And then the second time, they showed it 00:38:36.670 --> 00:38:40.270 align:middle line:84% where the focus was all on the people in the crowd. 00:38:40.270 --> 00:38:42.820 align:middle line:84% And you just had to know what was going on with the shuttle 00:38:42.820 --> 00:38:44.500 align:middle line:90% when they-- 00:38:44.500 --> 00:38:48.070 align:middle line:84% and if you'll remember, I remember distinctly, 00:38:48.070 --> 00:38:52.665 align:middle line:84% there was very little immediate shaking response. 00:38:52.665 --> 00:38:54.790 align:middle line:84% It was like they couldn't believe that it happened. 00:38:54.790 --> 00:38:58.630 align:middle line:84% I mean, it was like, it was still going up. 00:38:58.630 --> 00:39:04.810 align:middle line:84% And the realization that their sons and daughters had died 00:39:04.810 --> 00:39:06.190 align:middle line:90% had just not settled in. 00:39:06.190 --> 00:39:07.690 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Well, it wasn't clear 00:39:07.690 --> 00:39:10.120 align:middle line:90% initially that the people died. 00:39:10.120 --> 00:39:11.453 align:middle line:90% That was-- that took some wile-- 00:39:11.453 --> 00:39:12.412 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Some time. 00:39:12.412 --> 00:39:14.200 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: --some time to establish. 00:39:14.200 --> 00:39:15.700 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: OK. 00:39:15.700 --> 00:39:17.763 align:middle line:84% But it exploded way up there in the sky. 00:39:17.763 --> 00:39:19.430 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Something happened on it. 00:39:19.430 --> 00:39:19.720 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:39:19.720 --> 00:39:21.560 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Maybe the shuttle itself, but-- 00:39:21.560 --> 00:39:24.710 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Well, I mean, if something fell into the water. 00:39:24.710 --> 00:39:25.520 align:middle line:90% And-- 00:39:25.520 --> 00:39:26.550 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Oh, it could have been [INAUDIBLE].. 00:39:26.550 --> 00:39:28.340 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: --yeah, maybe they could have survived. 00:39:28.340 --> 00:39:28.965 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:39:28.965 --> 00:39:29.690 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:39:29.690 --> 00:39:30.440 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:31.040 align:middle line:90% You hope. 00:39:31.040 --> 00:39:31.420 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah. 00:39:31.420 --> 00:39:31.800 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:32.717 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: You hope. 00:39:32.717 --> 00:39:34.952 align:middle line:90% 00:39:34.952 --> 00:39:36.620 align:middle line:84% Now, there were some other things-- 00:39:36.620 --> 00:39:41.180 align:middle line:84% issues surrounding the whole case that bear on it. 00:39:41.180 --> 00:39:48.380 align:middle line:84% One was that President Reagan had just made a speech. 00:39:48.380 --> 00:39:51.230 align:middle line:84% And he made some statements in the speech 00:39:51.230 --> 00:39:53.490 align:middle line:84% that could be interpreted more than one way. 00:39:53.490 --> 00:39:56.870 align:middle line:84% But one way that many NASA people 00:39:56.870 --> 00:40:00.020 align:middle line:84% took it was that the success of this flight 00:40:00.020 --> 00:40:05.240 align:middle line:84% had a lot to do with their funding, NASA's funding, 00:40:05.240 --> 00:40:08.240 align:middle line:84% because there were a lot of questions out there 00:40:08.240 --> 00:40:11.570 align:middle line:84% about whether or not exploring space 00:40:11.570 --> 00:40:13.730 align:middle line:84% was a good place to put a lot of money. 00:40:13.730 --> 00:40:17.430 align:middle line:90% 00:40:17.430 --> 00:40:20.360 align:middle line:84% And so a lot of engineers actually 00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:26.300 align:middle line:84% said in testimony later that they felt 00:40:26.300 --> 00:40:28.460 align:middle line:90% pressured to have this flight. 00:40:28.460 --> 00:40:35.730 align:middle line:90% 00:40:35.730 --> 00:40:43.520 align:middle line:84% Then there was another issue that was very emotional 00:40:43.520 --> 00:40:46.580 align:middle line:90% for everybody. 00:40:46.580 --> 00:40:49.940 align:middle line:84% And that this was the first flight where 00:40:49.940 --> 00:40:53.840 align:middle line:84% you had somebody on the shuttle who 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:58.330 align:middle line:90% was not a trained astronaut. 00:40:58.330 --> 00:41:02.010 align:middle line:90% You had the schoolteacher. 00:41:02.010 --> 00:41:04.710 align:middle line:84% And that was very significant because what they really 00:41:04.710 --> 00:41:08.880 align:middle line:84% wanted to demonstrate beginning at that time, that 00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:13.680 align:middle line:84% flight of that sort is one that anybody who 00:41:13.680 --> 00:41:17.700 align:middle line:84% could get in an airplane and fly across country 00:41:17.700 --> 00:41:20.970 align:middle line:84% could get in a shuttle and go up in space. 00:41:20.970 --> 00:41:24.240 align:middle line:84% They really wanted to do all of that. 00:41:24.240 --> 00:41:28.710 align:middle line:84% And this was a case to prove that you didn't have 00:41:28.710 --> 00:41:30.170 align:middle line:84% to have all of this training, you 00:41:30.170 --> 00:41:34.140 align:middle line:84% didn't have to have super physical abilities, 00:41:34.140 --> 00:41:37.715 align:middle line:90% that you just get on and fly. 00:41:37.715 --> 00:41:39.090 align:middle line:84% And when she went down, there was 00:41:39.090 --> 00:41:44.550 align:middle line:84% a whole lot of terrible feelings in the United States. 00:41:44.550 --> 00:41:51.150 align:middle line:84% There was one other one that was emotionally stressful 00:41:51.150 --> 00:41:55.232 align:middle line:90% for MIT people. 00:41:55.232 --> 00:41:56.508 align:middle line:90% Remember who it was? 00:41:56.508 --> 00:41:57.508 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: MIT astronaut? 00:41:57.508 --> 00:41:59.860 align:middle line:90% An MIT alum? 00:41:59.860 --> 00:42:01.442 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Keep talking, maybe. 00:42:01.442 --> 00:42:02.660 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:42:02.660 --> 00:42:03.470 align:middle line:90% McNair. 00:42:03.470 --> 00:42:04.250 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:42:04.250 --> 00:42:05.930 align:middle line:84% As a matter of fact, when I met Dr. Ng, 00:42:05.930 --> 00:42:09.740 align:middle line:84% I gave a lecture into his class in the McNair Building. 00:42:09.740 --> 00:42:10.853 align:middle line:90% Wasn't it McNair? 00:42:10.853 --> 00:42:11.978 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Building 37. 00:42:11.978 --> 00:42:12.434 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Mm-hmm. 00:42:12.434 --> 00:42:14.260 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: No, wasn't it building 34? 00:42:14.260 --> 00:42:15.088 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: 34? 00:42:15.088 --> 00:42:16.630 align:middle line:84% McNair was somewhere around in there. 00:42:16.630 --> 00:42:18.070 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:42:18.070 --> 00:42:18.820 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: --that passed by it? 00:42:18.820 --> 00:42:19.720 align:middle line:90% Because I remember seeing-- 00:42:19.720 --> 00:42:20.800 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Three buildings behind it. 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:21.700 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Three buildings behind? 00:42:21.700 --> 00:42:22.660 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:42:22.660 --> 00:42:28.670 align:middle line:90% So Ron McNair was an MIT person. 00:42:28.670 --> 00:42:30.744 align:middle line:84% And he was on the flight and died. 00:42:30.744 --> 00:42:33.460 align:middle line:90% 00:42:33.460 --> 00:42:35.880 align:middle line:84% So there was-- so this particular issue was 00:42:35.880 --> 00:42:39.450 align:middle line:84% one that was unique in many ways, 00:42:39.450 --> 00:42:43.290 align:middle line:84% probably one of the-- let's say, probably 00:42:43.290 --> 00:42:47.400 align:middle line:84% the most important unique way is that virtually the whole world 00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:52.430 align:middle line:84% participated in the thing, if by no other way 00:42:52.430 --> 00:42:54.590 align:middle line:84% than just looking at it and having something 00:42:54.590 --> 00:42:56.180 align:middle line:90% to say about it afterwards. 00:42:56.180 --> 00:43:03.618 align:middle line:90% 00:43:03.618 --> 00:43:04.660 align:middle line:90% I wrote an article on it. 00:43:04.660 --> 00:43:07.670 align:middle line:90% 00:43:07.670 --> 00:43:11.789 align:middle line:84% Not on it, per se, but I included it. 00:43:11.789 --> 00:43:16.000 align:middle line:84% And at some point, I'll be able to get this up and go. 00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:19.340 align:middle line:90% 00:43:19.340 --> 00:43:19.840 align:middle line:90% Come on. 00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:27.570 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE] And while I'm looking this up, tell me what 00:43:27.570 --> 00:43:34.380 align:middle line:84% you think in terms of an ethical analysis of the whistleblower. 00:43:34.380 --> 00:43:35.130 align:middle line:90% Remember his name? 00:43:35.130 --> 00:43:42.620 align:middle line:90% 00:43:42.620 --> 00:43:43.667 align:middle line:90% Beaujolais? 00:43:43.667 --> 00:43:46.390 align:middle line:90% 00:43:46.390 --> 00:43:48.390 align:middle line:84% At least, that's the way he pronounces his name. 00:43:48.390 --> 00:43:51.820 align:middle line:90% 00:43:51.820 --> 00:43:54.440 align:middle line:84% Do you think he did the right thing? 00:43:54.440 --> 00:44:00.947 align:middle line:84% Do you think that the people who didn't pay attention to him 00:44:00.947 --> 00:44:01.780 align:middle line:90% did the wrong thing? 00:44:01.780 --> 00:44:04.650 align:middle line:90% 00:44:04.650 --> 00:44:06.794 align:middle line:90% Who's the judgment [INAUDIBLE]? 00:44:06.794 --> 00:44:09.294 align:middle line:84% He said, we shouldn't fly, and he went and told us about it. 00:44:09.294 --> 00:44:18.990 align:middle line:90% 00:44:18.990 --> 00:44:21.370 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: So I don't-- 00:44:21.370 --> 00:44:23.650 align:middle line:84% no, I don't think that can be the wrong thing. 00:44:23.650 --> 00:44:28.260 align:middle line:90% 00:44:28.260 --> 00:44:30.020 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Which theory are you using? 00:44:30.020 --> 00:44:33.885 align:middle line:84% Utilitarianism, categorical imperative, 00:44:33.885 --> 00:44:34.760 align:middle line:90% or some other theory? 00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:37.502 align:middle line:90% 00:44:37.502 --> 00:44:38.732 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:44:38.732 --> 00:44:40.832 align:middle line:84% In all of them, he did the right thing. 00:44:40.832 --> 00:44:42.040 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: For all of them? 00:44:42.040 --> 00:44:42.973 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:44:42.973 --> 00:44:44.140 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Make your case. 00:44:44.140 --> 00:44:44.973 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: All right. 00:44:44.973 --> 00:44:48.550 align:middle line:84% For utilitarianism, if they listened to him, 00:44:48.550 --> 00:44:51.460 align:middle line:84% people wouldn't have died that day. 00:44:51.460 --> 00:44:54.940 align:middle line:84% He also-- if he didn't say it after they died, 00:44:54.940 --> 00:44:57.550 align:middle line:84% he would have felt like, wow, I was a traitor to the dead, 00:44:57.550 --> 00:44:59.620 align:middle line:90% because I didn't say it. 00:44:59.620 --> 00:45:01.900 align:middle line:84% So it helps him, and it could have 00:45:01.900 --> 00:45:05.390 align:middle line:84% helped if they listened to him from the utilitarian point 00:45:05.390 --> 00:45:05.890 align:middle line:90% of view. 00:45:05.890 --> 00:45:11.350 align:middle line:84% And then, from the impact on the categorical imperative point 00:45:11.350 --> 00:45:17.110 align:middle line:84% of view, he said what was right regardless of the consequence. 00:45:17.110 --> 00:45:18.860 align:middle line:84% I mean, the consequence had nothing 00:45:18.860 --> 00:45:21.690 align:middle line:84% to do with-- he just said what was right. 00:45:21.690 --> 00:45:23.590 align:middle line:90% So his job was at risk. 00:45:23.590 --> 00:45:27.530 align:middle line:84% And he could have thought, I should save myself. 00:45:27.530 --> 00:45:30.130 align:middle line:84% So from that point of view, he did 00:45:30.130 --> 00:45:35.360 align:middle line:84% the right thing took not thinking of the consequence. 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:37.580 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So not thinking-- not necessarily using 00:45:37.580 --> 00:45:39.830 align:middle line:84% Kant's theory about the categorical imperative, 00:45:39.830 --> 00:45:41.705 align:middle line:84% but just not thinking about the consequences. 00:45:41.705 --> 00:45:45.540 align:middle line:84% That's a principle at work here that says, well, 00:45:45.540 --> 00:45:47.930 align:middle line:84% you should tell people when things are not safe. 00:45:47.930 --> 00:45:52.050 align:middle line:90% 00:45:52.050 --> 00:45:55.230 align:middle line:90% And yeah. 00:45:55.230 --> 00:45:56.520 align:middle line:90% That was a cold morning. 00:45:56.520 --> 00:45:58.200 align:middle line:84% And it went below specifications. 00:45:58.200 --> 00:46:03.122 align:middle line:84% But some of the engineers said, ah, but it won't hurt anybody. 00:46:03.122 --> 00:46:05.840 align:middle line:90% 00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:10.670 align:middle line:84% But now, there are some other points of view on this. 00:46:10.670 --> 00:46:12.908 align:middle line:84% But before I get to what people have 00:46:12.908 --> 00:46:14.950 align:middle line:84% said who've had plenty of time to think about it, 00:46:14.950 --> 00:46:16.790 align:middle line:84% I want to hear more about your initial-- 00:46:16.790 --> 00:46:17.750 align:middle line:90% your views about it. 00:46:17.750 --> 00:46:21.330 align:middle line:84% What do you think about this thing? 00:46:21.330 --> 00:46:24.300 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I'm trying to think about utilitarianism approach 00:46:24.300 --> 00:46:28.320 align:middle line:84% to his decision to tell managers that he 00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:29.940 align:middle line:90% didn't think it was safe. 00:46:29.940 --> 00:46:36.950 align:middle line:84% And I guess, if he himself had the power to cancel the launch, 00:46:36.950 --> 00:46:40.070 align:middle line:84% then maybe utilitarianism would be 00:46:40.070 --> 00:46:43.610 align:middle line:84% more problematic because canceling the launch 00:46:43.610 --> 00:46:48.860 align:middle line:84% if the O-ring was safe would produce a lot of pain 00:46:48.860 --> 00:46:53.140 align:middle line:84% for many parties involved, for NASA, 00:46:53.140 --> 00:46:55.440 align:middle line:84% for the money that had been spent on all the launch 00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:56.940 align:middle line:90% preparations. 00:46:56.940 --> 00:46:59.865 align:middle line:84% But he, in giving the recommendation 00:46:59.865 --> 00:47:01.260 align:middle line:84% that the launch shouldn't happen, 00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:04.650 align:middle line:84% didn't have the power to actually cancel the launch. 00:47:04.650 --> 00:47:08.490 align:middle line:84% So he was giving someone else the opportunity 00:47:08.490 --> 00:47:09.863 align:middle line:90% to make the decision. 00:47:09.863 --> 00:47:11.780 align:middle line:84% I don't really know where I'm going with this. 00:47:11.780 --> 00:47:12.780 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Keep going. 00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:14.005 align:middle line:90% Just keep talking. 00:47:14.005 --> 00:47:14.590 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:47:14.590 --> 00:47:16.340 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Do you have to take into account 00:47:16.340 --> 00:47:18.680 align:middle line:84% the actual power that the person has 00:47:18.680 --> 00:47:23.540 align:middle line:90% to make the course of action-- 00:47:23.540 --> 00:47:26.470 align:middle line:84% follow through with the course of action? 00:47:26.470 --> 00:47:33.680 align:middle line:84% So all that Beaujolais could do was give someone 00:47:33.680 --> 00:47:36.095 align:middle line:84% else a big decision to make with actual facts. 00:47:36.095 --> 00:47:40.480 align:middle line:90% 00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:42.820 align:middle line:84% So certainly, from that categorical imperative point 00:47:42.820 --> 00:47:48.030 align:middle line:84% of view, he wasn't infringing on anyone's rights. 00:47:48.030 --> 00:47:50.370 align:middle line:84% He was treating his managers as people 00:47:50.370 --> 00:47:54.146 align:middle line:90% who had the ability to reason. 00:47:54.146 --> 00:47:57.540 align:middle line:84% Which seems to be what that approach to ethics would say 00:47:57.540 --> 00:48:00.703 align:middle line:90% is the right thing to do. 00:48:00.703 --> 00:48:02.703 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, again, I have a problem with it, 00:48:02.703 --> 00:48:06.780 align:middle line:84% because I-- with applying the utilitarian approach, 00:48:06.780 --> 00:48:10.180 align:middle line:84% because I just feel like there's so many uncertainties. 00:48:10.180 --> 00:48:12.530 align:middle line:90% And it's so hard. 00:48:12.530 --> 00:48:13.913 align:middle line:90% Retrospect is a wonderful thing. 00:48:13.913 --> 00:48:15.330 align:middle line:84% We could sit around and look at it 00:48:15.330 --> 00:48:17.080 align:middle line:84% and say, this is what would have happened, 00:48:17.080 --> 00:48:18.455 align:middle line:84% this is what could have happened. 00:48:18.455 --> 00:48:21.682 align:middle line:84% But from his point of view, it's really hard 00:48:21.682 --> 00:48:23.140 align:middle line:84% to implement that kind of approach, 00:48:23.140 --> 00:48:26.530 align:middle line:84% because he had no clue the ramifications of his actions. 00:48:26.530 --> 00:48:28.210 align:middle line:84% Either he would present this data 00:48:28.210 --> 00:48:30.760 align:middle line:84% and say you shouldn't, or he would say nothing. 00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:34.600 align:middle line:84% But I don't think he was truly aware of what it really meant, 00:48:34.600 --> 00:48:36.490 align:middle line:84% or maybe he didn't think about it, 00:48:36.490 --> 00:48:40.030 align:middle line:84% or he didn't sit down and weigh all options that people 00:48:40.030 --> 00:48:42.987 align:middle line:84% actually die, or what does this mean for NASA if I say this, 00:48:42.987 --> 00:48:45.070 align:middle line:84% and we don't launch, will all the funding get cut? 00:48:45.070 --> 00:48:47.350 align:middle line:84% I don't know if he weighed all the options 00:48:47.350 --> 00:48:51.280 align:middle line:84% or was even clear what they were at the time. 00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:53.890 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Let's talk about complexity a little bit. 00:48:53.890 --> 00:48:57.310 align:middle line:90% Let's make it more complex. 00:48:57.310 --> 00:49:03.430 align:middle line:84% And see if there's a way to think through something 00:49:03.430 --> 00:49:06.400 align:middle line:90% that really is complex. 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:13.350 align:middle line:84% We have to have the optimism that even when 00:49:13.350 --> 00:49:17.220 align:middle line:84% it comes to engineering that we do every day, all of the things 00:49:17.220 --> 00:49:20.070 align:middle line:84% that can happen to our designs, somehow or another, 00:49:20.070 --> 00:49:22.770 align:middle line:84% we get these models and we get through it. 00:49:22.770 --> 00:49:24.840 align:middle line:84% Can we do the same thing with an ethical problem? 00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:28.120 align:middle line:84% All of these complexities, I'm going to add another complexity 00:49:28.120 --> 00:49:28.620 align:middle line:90% to it. 00:49:28.620 --> 00:49:31.450 align:middle line:90% 00:49:31.450 --> 00:49:37.414 align:middle line:84% There's a man by the name of Hans Mark. 00:49:37.414 --> 00:49:39.220 align:middle line:90% You know him? 00:49:39.220 --> 00:49:40.633 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Is he at Texas? 00:49:40.633 --> 00:49:41.425 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: He's-- 00:49:41.425 --> 00:49:42.467 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: He is now. 00:49:42.467 --> 00:49:43.270 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: He's-- 00:49:43.270 --> 00:49:44.380 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: He's still, yeah, chancellor 00:49:44.380 --> 00:49:45.430 align:middle line:90% at the University of Texas. 00:49:45.430 --> 00:49:46.915 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I just remember hearing his name. 00:49:46.915 --> 00:49:48.490 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Oh, you-- and you remember that name? 00:49:48.490 --> 00:49:48.975 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: He was at NASA. 00:49:48.975 --> 00:49:50.725 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because it's a distinctive name. 00:49:50.725 --> 00:49:51.250 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:49:51.250 --> 00:49:52.000 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:52.720 align:middle line:90% He was at NASA. 00:49:52.720 --> 00:50:00.830 align:middle line:84% He for several years was the number two man at NASA. 00:50:00.830 --> 00:50:04.607 align:middle line:84% He was the one that gave the final say so, yes or no 00:50:04.607 --> 00:50:05.440 align:middle line:90% for shuttle flights. 00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:08.050 align:middle line:90% 00:50:08.050 --> 00:50:13.360 align:middle line:84% And I don't recall if he gave the yes or no 00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:14.770 align:middle line:90% for the Challenger. 00:50:14.770 --> 00:50:16.630 align:middle line:90% But I think he did. 00:50:16.630 --> 00:50:19.480 align:middle line:84% That's a good thing for you to look up. 00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:20.140 align:middle line:90% I knew him. 00:50:20.140 --> 00:50:25.550 align:middle line:84% Hans Mark was what I would call a basically decent person. 00:50:25.550 --> 00:50:28.550 align:middle line:90% Basically decent person. 00:50:28.550 --> 00:50:30.320 align:middle line:90% He sent-- he-- 00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:32.390 align:middle line:90% I wrote this article. 00:50:32.390 --> 00:50:37.610 align:middle line:84% And I'm going to give you two complexities in this thing. 00:50:37.610 --> 00:50:41.270 align:middle line:90% What I said in it-- 00:50:41.270 --> 00:50:42.740 align:middle line:84% and I think I told you all that-- 00:50:42.740 --> 00:50:48.990 align:middle line:84% I think I had to restart this thing to get it up on here. 00:50:48.990 --> 00:50:57.750 align:middle line:84% What I said in this article was that lethality 00:50:57.750 --> 00:50:59.864 align:middle line:90% was a part of engineering. 00:50:59.864 --> 00:51:02.470 align:middle line:90% 00:51:02.470 --> 00:51:07.000 align:middle line:84% So we can draw lines and say that some things are too risky. 00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:10.750 align:middle line:84% We can draw lines and say if some things are unlawful. 00:51:10.750 --> 00:51:14.110 align:middle line:84% There's certain risk factors that you have to observe. 00:51:14.110 --> 00:51:19.630 align:middle line:84% And I said, but we cannot, nor is there ever any intention, 00:51:19.630 --> 00:51:22.960 align:middle line:84% to get engineering down to zero risk. 00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:26.950 align:middle line:84% We're always going beyond what science 00:51:26.950 --> 00:51:31.540 align:middle line:90% can tell us is truthful. 00:51:31.540 --> 00:51:34.000 align:middle line:84% And in some instance-- and an instance 00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:35.950 align:middle line:84% I made the argument that we're going 00:51:35.950 --> 00:51:41.050 align:middle line:84% beyond what most ethicists if not all ethicists have 00:51:41.050 --> 00:51:44.800 align:middle line:84% tried to tell us in terms of reasoning things out. 00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:48.730 align:middle line:84% And that is to say, we engineers get into situations 00:51:48.730 --> 00:51:51.190 align:middle line:84% where you have to make a decision right away. 00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:52.720 align:middle line:84% You don't have time to think it out. 00:51:52.720 --> 00:51:55.000 align:middle line:84% Not only that, it's a novel situation, 00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:57.580 align:middle line:90% so you couldn't practice for it. 00:51:57.580 --> 00:51:59.980 align:middle line:84% So how do you get through-- and there are systematic 00:51:59.980 --> 00:52:01.705 align:middle line:90% ways to get through this. 00:52:01.705 --> 00:52:03.205 align:middle line:84% We're not just left at the elements. 00:52:03.205 --> 00:52:05.710 align:middle line:90% 00:52:05.710 --> 00:52:10.590 align:middle line:84% But that we have to take all of that into account. 00:52:10.590 --> 00:52:14.110 align:middle line:84% Hans Mark-- didn't I tell you the story 00:52:14.110 --> 00:52:16.470 align:middle line:90% about this news article? 00:52:16.470 --> 00:52:18.520 align:middle line:84% I had to meet with these people who 00:52:18.520 --> 00:52:22.585 align:middle line:84% told me I had done this horrible thing to engineering? 00:52:22.585 --> 00:52:25.492 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: You never sent us the article. 00:52:25.492 --> 00:52:27.450 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: I looked yesterday for this thing. 00:52:27.450 --> 00:52:30.720 align:middle line:90% I can't find it. 00:52:30.720 --> 00:52:32.280 align:middle line:90% I know there's a copy at home. 00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:35.520 align:middle line:84% I'll get my wife to fax it to me when we get back. 00:52:35.520 --> 00:52:38.490 align:middle line:84% I'll give you the reference for it now anyway. 00:52:38.490 --> 00:52:39.840 align:middle line:90% So maybe you can find it. 00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:41.828 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:52:41.828 --> 00:52:46.301 align:middle line:90% 00:52:46.301 --> 00:52:48.800 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:52:48.800 --> 00:52:52.505 align:middle line:90% And Hans Mark read that article. 00:52:52.505 --> 00:52:56.100 align:middle line:90% 00:52:56.100 --> 00:53:06.050 align:middle line:84% And he write it on the plane going from Washington 00:53:06.050 --> 00:53:06.860 align:middle line:90% to California. 00:53:06.860 --> 00:53:10.140 align:middle line:90% 00:53:10.140 --> 00:53:14.040 align:middle line:84% And he wrote me a letter on the plane. 00:53:14.040 --> 00:53:17.610 align:middle line:84% And when he got back, he had his secretary put a paper 00:53:17.610 --> 00:53:23.003 align:middle line:84% that he had written together and sent the whole thing to me. 00:53:23.003 --> 00:53:24.420 align:middle line:84% And he said, he just couldn't stop 00:53:24.420 --> 00:53:26.810 align:middle line:90% thinking about the article. 00:53:26.810 --> 00:53:29.430 align:middle line:90% What he had said in his paper-- 00:53:29.430 --> 00:53:30.787 align:middle line:90% and until I get the paper-- 00:53:30.787 --> 00:53:31.870 align:middle line:90% I know where the paper is. 00:53:31.870 --> 00:53:33.500 align:middle line:84% It's in my office back at Howard. 00:53:33.500 --> 00:53:36.710 align:middle line:84% I'll bring it back when I come back up here. 00:53:36.710 --> 00:53:38.540 align:middle line:90% But so I have-- 00:53:38.540 --> 00:53:40.777 align:middle line:84% so I want to read to you what he said. 00:53:40.777 --> 00:53:42.860 align:middle line:84% But I'll tell you know what I recall what he said. 00:53:42.860 --> 00:53:45.470 align:middle line:84% And I carried it with me all of these years. 00:53:45.470 --> 00:53:52.190 align:middle line:84% What he said was that every time he gave the order to fly, 00:53:52.190 --> 00:53:55.370 align:middle line:84% there was a group of engineers saying that the flight was 00:53:55.370 --> 00:53:58.080 align:middle line:90% going to explode. 00:53:58.080 --> 00:53:59.700 align:middle line:84% And somewhere in their arguments, 00:53:59.700 --> 00:54:02.700 align:middle line:84% if you look further enough down into it, the A, B, C, 00:54:02.700 --> 00:54:04.290 align:middle line:84% D, as to why it was going to explode, 00:54:04.290 --> 00:54:07.330 align:middle line:90% the O-rings were in there. 00:54:07.330 --> 00:54:11.070 align:middle line:84% And he said, that either this country has a commitment to go, 00:54:11.070 --> 00:54:11.760 align:middle line:90% or it doesn't. 00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:18.300 align:middle line:90% 00:54:18.300 --> 00:54:21.030 align:middle line:90% Now, can you justify that? 00:54:21.030 --> 00:54:25.815 align:middle line:84% The important thing is that that is a hard reality. 00:54:25.815 --> 00:54:29.960 align:middle line:90% 00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:31.310 align:middle line:90% It's a hard reality. 00:54:31.310 --> 00:54:34.910 align:middle line:90% So every time-- let me see. 00:54:34.910 --> 00:54:36.140 align:middle line:90% I'll get it right now. 00:54:36.140 --> 00:54:36.912 align:middle line:90% Let's see. 00:54:36.912 --> 00:54:46.552 align:middle line:90% 00:54:46.552 --> 00:54:47.473 align:middle line:90% We've used these. 00:54:47.473 --> 00:54:48.640 align:middle line:90% You've seen enough of these. 00:54:48.640 --> 00:54:55.710 align:middle line:90% 00:54:55.710 --> 00:54:58.650 align:middle line:90% That's it right there. 00:54:58.650 --> 00:55:00.390 align:middle line:84% Let me get the lights just for a second. 00:55:00.390 --> 00:55:03.292 align:middle line:90% 00:55:03.292 --> 00:55:03.792 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:55:03.792 --> 00:55:04.417 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:55:04.417 --> 00:55:11.570 align:middle line:90% 00:55:11.570 --> 00:55:14.040 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: This is The Washington Post. 00:55:14.040 --> 00:55:17.780 align:middle line:84% It's in the outpost section of The Post. 00:55:17.780 --> 00:55:18.980 align:middle line:90% That is me. 00:55:18.980 --> 00:55:23.090 align:middle line:84% The title is, The Slippery Ethics of Engineering. 00:55:23.090 --> 00:55:30.930 align:middle line:84% And this is December 26, 1986, day after Christmas, 00:55:30.930 --> 00:55:31.670 align:middle line:90% Sunday morning. 00:55:31.670 --> 00:55:35.830 align:middle line:90% 00:55:35.830 --> 00:55:39.130 align:middle line:84% And there is a picture of the shuttle-- 00:55:39.130 --> 00:55:42.400 align:middle line:90% I'm sorry, the Challenger. 00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:45.910 align:middle line:84% The Post got these from stock photos. 00:55:45.910 --> 00:55:50.280 align:middle line:84% You all remember-- you all ever heard of the Bhopal case? 00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:51.530 align:middle line:90% We're going to cover that one. 00:55:51.530 --> 00:55:57.990 align:middle line:84% That was a case where the issue was whether or not 00:55:57.990 --> 00:56:01.680 align:middle line:84% the safety standards you use in the United States 00:56:01.680 --> 00:56:05.080 align:middle line:84% should be the same or higher any place else. 00:56:05.080 --> 00:56:08.430 align:middle line:84% And this US company had a division in India. 00:56:08.430 --> 00:56:11.850 align:middle line:84% And they had lower standards over there. 00:56:11.850 --> 00:56:15.310 align:middle line:84% And there was a chemical problem. 00:56:15.310 --> 00:56:18.270 align:middle line:84% And a lot of people got killed, including little babies. 00:56:18.270 --> 00:56:20.100 align:middle line:84% So they put that in those papers. 00:56:20.100 --> 00:56:22.740 align:middle line:90% And the whole world exploded. 00:56:22.740 --> 00:56:24.807 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] Yes. 00:56:24.807 --> 00:56:26.390 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: The image that they included 00:56:26.390 --> 00:56:28.932 align:middle line:84% with your editorial made such a difference in their response. 00:56:28.932 --> 00:56:31.010 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, they said that I-- 00:56:31.010 --> 00:56:36.790 align:middle line:84% everybody said that I was saying that engineers kill people. 00:56:36.790 --> 00:56:38.110 align:middle line:90% And my response to that-- 00:56:38.110 --> 00:56:40.090 align:middle line:90% I had two responses to that. 00:56:40.090 --> 00:56:45.110 align:middle line:84% First was that, well, we don't want to do this. 00:56:45.110 --> 00:56:46.270 align:middle line:90% We don't like this. 00:56:46.270 --> 00:56:48.670 align:middle line:84% But there's somewhere in here where lethality 00:56:48.670 --> 00:56:50.820 align:middle line:90% is part of what we do. 00:56:50.820 --> 00:56:53.060 align:middle line:84% That's what Hans Mark was really saying. 00:56:53.060 --> 00:56:55.762 align:middle line:84% Now, how can you justify that, or can you justify that? 00:56:55.762 --> 00:56:56.970 align:middle line:90% I want to go into that today. 00:56:56.970 --> 00:56:59.530 align:middle line:90% 00:56:59.530 --> 00:57:08.380 align:middle line:84% And so you can't get that lethality part of it 00:57:08.380 --> 00:57:09.550 align:middle line:90% out of engineering. 00:57:09.550 --> 00:57:13.300 align:middle line:90% For me, the question was-- 00:57:13.300 --> 00:57:15.210 align:middle line:90% I had two questions. 00:57:15.210 --> 00:57:20.270 align:middle line:84% Are we going to do engineering or are we going to change 00:57:20.270 --> 00:57:23.240 align:middle line:90% engineering to something else? 00:57:23.240 --> 00:57:29.030 align:middle line:84% Engineering as it does not have to be this. 00:57:29.030 --> 00:57:32.741 align:middle line:84% I'm not so sure it's escapable from this. 00:57:32.741 --> 00:57:37.430 align:middle line:84% This Three Mile Island, yeah, you 00:57:37.430 --> 00:57:40.640 align:middle line:84% are all pretty young for that one too. 00:57:40.640 --> 00:57:42.160 align:middle line:90% You ever heard of it? 00:57:42.160 --> 00:57:43.285 align:middle line:90% The Three Mile Island case? 00:57:43.285 --> 00:57:45.160 align:middle line:84% You ever heard of the Three Mile Island Case? 00:57:45.160 --> 00:57:47.558 align:middle line:90% 00:57:47.558 --> 00:57:49.100 align:middle line:84% Ales, we're going to do that one too. 00:57:49.100 --> 00:57:51.935 align:middle line:84% I think that's listed here someplace. 00:57:51.935 --> 00:57:53.560 align:middle line:84% I have a personal experience with that. 00:57:53.560 --> 00:57:57.590 align:middle line:84% I went to work with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission 00:57:57.590 --> 00:57:59.270 align:middle line:84% two months after Three Mile Island. 00:57:59.270 --> 00:58:06.390 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] Yes. 00:58:06.390 --> 00:58:08.220 align:middle line:90% We're going to discuss this too. 00:58:08.220 --> 00:58:10.020 align:middle line:84% But we got some issues on the floor. 00:58:10.020 --> 00:58:14.700 align:middle line:84% I mean, how do you deal with this case that if you want 00:58:14.700 --> 00:58:20.160 align:middle line:84% to be really good and safe, that you cannot always do 00:58:20.160 --> 00:58:21.251 align:middle line:90% engineering? 00:58:21.251 --> 00:58:24.020 align:middle line:90% 00:58:24.020 --> 00:58:26.220 align:middle line:84% And tell me if you believe that's true or not. 00:58:26.220 --> 00:58:29.690 align:middle line:84% The important thing is, if it is true, what do we do about it? 00:58:29.690 --> 00:58:30.440 align:middle line:90% Can we justify it? 00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:31.470 align:middle line:90% Can we not justify it? 00:58:31.470 --> 00:58:33.440 align:middle line:84% Do we have to change what engineering basically 00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:36.822 align:middle line:90% is as a matter of discipline? 00:58:36.822 --> 00:58:43.690 align:middle line:90% 00:58:43.690 --> 00:58:45.190 align:middle line:84% See if you can't get a hold of this. 00:58:45.190 --> 00:58:47.140 align:middle line:84% And if you can't, even if you can, 00:58:47.140 --> 00:58:49.110 align:middle line:84% I'll bring back my Xerox copy from home, 00:58:49.110 --> 00:58:50.607 align:middle line:90% but it'll be a couple of weeks. 00:58:50.607 --> 00:58:52.524 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And then we can get it [INAUDIBLE].. 00:58:52.524 --> 00:58:55.073 align:middle line:90% 00:58:55.073 --> 00:58:56.490 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And if you do get it, 00:58:56.490 --> 00:58:59.910 align:middle line:90% please tell me how you got it. 00:58:59.910 --> 00:59:04.920 align:middle line:84% The Washington Post seems to be reluctant to want 00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:12.350 align:middle line:84% to give back issues that go back more than six months. 00:59:12.350 --> 00:59:14.870 align:middle line:84% I tried to log on and get it-- become 00:59:14.870 --> 00:59:17.282 align:middle line:90% a member of what they call it. 00:59:17.282 --> 00:59:18.240 align:middle line:90% I forgot it what it is. 00:59:18.240 --> 00:59:21.445 align:middle line:84% But I had some difficulty, and I just gave up. 00:59:21.445 --> 00:59:22.820 align:middle line:84% Maybe you can be more successful. 00:59:22.820 --> 00:59:26.435 align:middle line:84% Maybe there are some copies of old issues in the library. 00:59:26.435 --> 00:59:27.060 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:59:27.060 --> 00:59:28.010 align:middle line:90% That's where I was thinking. 00:59:28.010 --> 00:59:30.552 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yeah, because they have these big books, so big. 00:59:30.552 --> 00:59:31.640 align:middle line:90% And they keep all issues. 00:59:31.640 --> 00:59:34.650 align:middle line:84% And you just go back and just pull one out. 00:59:34.650 --> 00:59:39.360 align:middle line:84% And if you do that, then I'll reimburse you, 00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:41.508 align:middle line:84% whoever gets it, if you make Xerox copies 00:59:41.508 --> 00:59:42.300 align:middle line:90% for the rest of us. 00:59:42.300 --> 00:59:45.077 align:middle line:90% 00:59:45.077 --> 00:59:46.660 align:middle line:84% That's good to get you to the library. 00:59:46.660 --> 00:59:48.670 align:middle line:84% That leaves some questions out there. 00:59:48.670 --> 00:59:50.087 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: What does that have 00:59:50.087 --> 00:59:51.603 align:middle line:90% to do with academic tenure? 00:59:51.603 --> 00:59:52.270 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Oh. 00:59:52.270 --> 01:00:01.180 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] When this issue came out, I was invited-- 01:00:01.180 --> 01:00:03.760 align:middle line:84% I was chair of the Ethics Committee 01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:08.080 align:middle line:84% of the AAES, the American Association of Engineering 01:00:08.080 --> 01:00:08.860 align:middle line:90% Societies. 01:00:08.860 --> 01:00:09.190 align:middle line:90% I tell you what. 01:00:09.190 --> 01:00:10.607 align:middle line:84% Let me go back through this story. 01:00:10.607 --> 01:00:12.010 align:middle line:90% We got time. 01:00:12.010 --> 01:00:13.725 align:middle line:84% Let me go back through this story. 01:00:13.725 --> 01:00:15.100 align:middle line:84% Hope you don't get bored with it. 01:00:15.100 --> 01:00:16.570 align:middle line:90% But I won't make it long. 01:00:16.570 --> 01:00:22.240 align:middle line:84% The engineers were complaining that they did not 01:00:22.240 --> 01:00:27.910 align:middle line:84% have as much influence in Congress as the physicians did 01:00:27.910 --> 01:00:29.770 align:middle line:90% and as the scientists did. 01:00:29.770 --> 01:00:34.510 align:middle line:84% And somebody told them that the physicians had The New England 01:00:34.510 --> 01:00:36.700 align:middle line:84% Journal of Medicine and the scientists 01:00:36.700 --> 01:00:39.550 align:middle line:84% had the AAAS, where you could get one 01:00:39.550 --> 01:00:41.590 align:middle line:90% voice for the whole of them. 01:00:41.590 --> 01:00:45.400 align:middle line:84% And that was more powerful than the engineers coming in there 01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:49.060 align:middle line:84% from the American Society of Civil Engineers, the IEEE, 01:00:49.060 --> 01:00:51.280 align:middle line:90% the AICHE, and all of those. 01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:56.640 align:middle line:84% So they formed one group in imitation of the AAAS, 01:00:56.640 --> 01:00:58.170 align:middle line:90% and they called it the AAES. 01:00:58.170 --> 01:01:00.790 align:middle line:90% 01:01:00.790 --> 01:01:04.390 align:middle line:84% And the members were not individuals, 01:01:04.390 --> 01:01:07.525 align:middle line:90% they were the societies. 01:01:07.525 --> 01:01:09.400 align:middle line:84% And their representatives were the presidents 01:01:09.400 --> 01:01:10.270 align:middle line:90% of those societies. 01:01:10.270 --> 01:01:12.940 align:middle line:90% And they formed the board. 01:01:12.940 --> 01:01:19.690 align:middle line:84% And that board, when this article came out 01:01:19.690 --> 01:01:24.290 align:middle line:84% had a special meeting and asked me to come to the meeting. 01:01:24.290 --> 01:01:28.300 align:middle line:84% They the word ask is very polite. 01:01:28.300 --> 01:01:28.900 align:middle line:90% I had to go. 01:01:28.900 --> 01:01:29.860 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 01:01:29.860 --> 01:01:31.690 align:middle line:90% So I went to this meeting. 01:01:31.690 --> 01:01:33.400 align:middle line:90% And I walked into the room. 01:01:33.400 --> 01:01:36.470 align:middle line:84% And there's this long board table. 01:01:36.470 --> 01:01:39.950 align:middle line:84% And all of them were sitting on one side of the table. 01:01:39.950 --> 01:01:44.050 align:middle line:84% And they had this one little lone chair on the other side. 01:01:44.050 --> 01:01:46.510 align:middle line:90% And I was invited to sit there. 01:01:46.510 --> 01:01:50.080 align:middle line:84% And all of them had copies in front of them 01:01:50.080 --> 01:01:53.500 align:middle line:90% of The Washington Post. 01:01:53.500 --> 01:01:57.010 align:middle line:84% Now, let me give you a little background on that. 01:01:57.010 --> 01:02:00.500 align:middle line:84% It wasn't just an article in The Washington Post. 01:02:00.500 --> 01:02:05.300 align:middle line:84% This thing was syndicated by the Los Angeles Times news service. 01:02:05.300 --> 01:02:07.730 align:middle line:84% It was reprinted in the [INAUDIBLE],, the Times, 01:02:07.730 --> 01:02:09.350 align:middle line:90% all sorts of places. 01:02:09.350 --> 01:02:13.370 align:middle line:84% They said it was going to go out to 400 or 500 newspapers 01:02:13.370 --> 01:02:18.990 align:middle line:84% and that 100 million people were going to read it at minimum. 01:02:18.990 --> 01:02:22.280 align:middle line:84% So the engineers really felt bad that this thing has 01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:23.675 align:middle line:90% gotten out all over the world. 01:02:23.675 --> 01:02:29.060 align:middle line:90% 01:02:29.060 --> 01:02:38.780 align:middle line:84% So when I went in there, the first person to speak 01:02:38.780 --> 01:02:42.260 align:middle line:84% was the immediate past president of the American Society 01:02:42.260 --> 01:02:44.420 align:middle line:90% of Mechanical Engineers. 01:02:44.420 --> 01:02:45.900 align:middle line:90% And he leaned across the table. 01:02:45.900 --> 01:02:48.050 align:middle line:90% And he pointed his finger at me. 01:02:48.050 --> 01:02:51.710 align:middle line:84% And he said, Taft Broome, what you have just done 01:02:51.710 --> 01:02:54.980 align:middle line:84% has caused more damage to the engineering profession 01:02:54.980 --> 01:02:58.280 align:middle line:84% than any other single act in history. 01:02:58.280 --> 01:03:00.933 align:middle line:90% Now, that's a direct quote. 01:03:00.933 --> 01:03:01.850 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I remember that. 01:03:01.850 --> 01:03:05.420 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] And I stayed in there with them 2 and 1/2 hours. 01:03:05.420 --> 01:03:08.120 align:middle line:90% We went through every line. 01:03:08.120 --> 01:03:10.950 align:middle line:84% And at the end, they went down the table. 01:03:10.950 --> 01:03:13.680 align:middle line:90% And each person had their say. 01:03:13.680 --> 01:03:15.440 align:middle line:84% And each person said what had just 01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:17.270 align:middle line:84% been-- except for the first one-- said what 01:03:17.270 --> 01:03:19.640 align:middle line:90% the previous person had said. 01:03:19.640 --> 01:03:25.270 align:middle line:84% They said that everything in here was true, 01:03:25.270 --> 01:03:29.050 align:middle line:84% but that I should not have told it. 01:03:29.050 --> 01:03:30.500 align:middle line:90% That's that loyalty thing again. 01:03:30.500 --> 01:03:34.810 align:middle line:84% It's very strong all the way to the top. 01:03:34.810 --> 01:03:39.550 align:middle line:84% And then when it got around to me, 01:03:39.550 --> 01:03:51.330 align:middle line:84% what I told them was that how can the AAES ever presume say, 01:03:51.330 --> 01:03:54.570 align:middle line:84% to have an important say so in Congress if you don't have 01:03:54.570 --> 01:03:55.740 align:middle line:90% the power of life and death? 01:03:55.740 --> 01:04:00.780 align:middle line:90% 01:04:00.780 --> 01:04:02.530 align:middle line:84% Then I asked them, I said, how many of you 01:04:02.530 --> 01:04:04.760 align:middle line:90% all will me out for a drink? 01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:05.510 align:middle line:90% Three of them did. 01:04:05.510 --> 01:04:07.490 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] 01:04:07.490 --> 01:04:12.680 align:middle line:84% When I finished the drink, got back to Howard, literally, 01:04:12.680 --> 01:04:14.180 align:middle line:84% the dean was standing in the hallway 01:04:14.180 --> 01:04:16.570 align:middle line:90% waiting for me to come back. 01:04:16.570 --> 01:04:20.860 align:middle line:84% And he said, the president of the university 01:04:20.860 --> 01:04:24.444 align:middle line:90% wants to talk to me. 01:04:24.444 --> 01:04:26.365 align:middle line:84% And I hadn't made full professor at the time. 01:04:26.365 --> 01:04:30.100 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] I had tenure, but I had not made full professor. 01:04:30.100 --> 01:04:33.190 align:middle line:90% So I went to my office. 01:04:33.190 --> 01:04:35.130 align:middle line:90% I called the president's office. 01:04:35.130 --> 01:04:37.900 align:middle line:90% President got on the phone. 01:04:37.900 --> 01:04:40.480 align:middle line:84% And he said, well, I want to let you know-- 01:04:40.480 --> 01:04:43.000 align:middle line:84% and these were his words exactly, 01:04:43.000 --> 01:04:46.510 align:middle line:84% quote, "The captains of industry want your head." 01:04:46.510 --> 01:04:48.206 align:middle line:90% End of quote. 01:04:48.206 --> 01:04:52.140 align:middle line:84% I said, "I think I know what you mean by that." 01:04:52.140 --> 01:04:57.260 align:middle line:84% Howard had just gotten a chemical engineering wing gift 01:04:57.260 --> 01:05:00.050 align:middle line:90% from one of the oil companies. 01:05:00.050 --> 01:05:03.943 align:middle line:84% And they were threatening the president 01:05:03.943 --> 01:05:05.360 align:middle line:84% with all of these things that they 01:05:05.360 --> 01:05:10.887 align:middle line:84% were no longer going to give to Howard if he did not fire me. 01:05:10.887 --> 01:05:13.220 align:middle line:84% And so I said, "Well, Mr. President"-- that's the way we 01:05:13.220 --> 01:05:15.220 align:middle line:90% talked to our president. 01:05:15.220 --> 01:05:18.250 align:middle line:84% I said, "Well, Mr. President, what did you tell them?" 01:05:18.250 --> 01:05:22.587 align:middle line:84% And he said, "Well, I told them that I would like to fire you 01:05:22.587 --> 01:05:23.670 align:middle line:90% but that you have tenure." 01:05:23.670 --> 01:05:27.390 align:middle line:90% 01:05:27.390 --> 01:05:29.160 align:middle line:84% Now, the lesson that I learned from that 01:05:29.160 --> 01:05:33.210 align:middle line:84% was not so much that academic tenure was powerful, 01:05:33.210 --> 01:05:36.330 align:middle line:84% that the holding of academic tenure was powerful. 01:05:36.330 --> 01:05:39.150 align:middle line:84% What I learned from that was that the president was 01:05:39.150 --> 01:05:41.070 align:middle line:84% so glad that I had academic tenure-- 01:05:41.070 --> 01:05:43.140 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] --because look what kind of life 01:05:43.140 --> 01:05:47.040 align:middle line:84% he would have to lead if every powerful person out there 01:05:47.040 --> 01:05:49.350 align:middle line:90% could intimidate him with money. 01:05:49.350 --> 01:05:51.330 align:middle line:90% Not only that, but 75-- 01:05:51.330 --> 01:05:51.990 align:middle line:90% sorry. 01:05:51.990 --> 01:05:56.610 align:middle line:84% 2/3 of Howard's operating budget comes as an act of Congress. 01:05:56.610 --> 01:05:59.790 align:middle line:84% And they have power over the committee 01:05:59.790 --> 01:06:01.177 align:middle line:90% that provides that funding. 01:06:01.177 --> 01:06:02.760 align:middle line:84% They were threatening to cut that off. 01:06:02.760 --> 01:06:05.510 align:middle line:90% 01:06:05.510 --> 01:06:09.380 align:middle line:84% Now, what kind of life would a president of a university lead 01:06:09.380 --> 01:06:12.770 align:middle line:84% if he or she had to bend to the will of these powerful people 01:06:12.770 --> 01:06:15.940 align:middle line:84% every time some faculty member said something? 01:06:15.940 --> 01:06:19.620 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] Tenure was the greatest thing for him. 01:06:19.620 --> 01:06:23.750 align:middle line:84% No, sorry, my tenure was the greatest thing for him. 01:06:23.750 --> 01:06:26.460 align:middle line:90% That's the argument that I made. 01:06:26.460 --> 01:06:28.130 align:middle line:84% So the point that I'm making here 01:06:28.130 --> 01:06:33.470 align:middle line:84% is that we're not dealing with some trivial theoretical-- 01:06:33.470 --> 01:06:36.288 align:middle line:84% not that I have anything-- any problems with theory. 01:06:36.288 --> 01:06:38.330 align:middle line:84% But we're not dealing with anything trivial here. 01:06:38.330 --> 01:06:42.082 align:middle line:84% This thing hit the world with a sledgehammer. 01:06:42.082 --> 01:06:44.540 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Can you repeat, what is it that you actually 01:06:44.540 --> 01:06:46.190 align:middle line:90% said in the article? 01:06:46.190 --> 01:06:48.740 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: What I said was that-- 01:06:48.740 --> 01:06:51.030 align:middle line:84% this wasn't my original name for it. 01:06:51.030 --> 01:06:52.370 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Of course. 01:06:52.370 --> 01:06:54.740 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: They changed that name. 01:06:54.740 --> 01:06:59.180 align:middle line:84% My original name for it was Cicero is dead. 01:06:59.180 --> 01:06:59.840 align:middle line:90% Period. 01:06:59.840 --> 01:07:02.450 align:middle line:90% Long live technology. 01:07:02.450 --> 01:07:04.550 align:middle line:84% And Cicero had said that the safe, quote, 01:07:04.550 --> 01:07:07.993 align:middle line:84% the safety of the public shall be the highest law. 01:07:07.993 --> 01:07:09.410 align:middle line:84% And I was saying that engineering, 01:07:09.410 --> 01:07:12.200 align:middle line:84% the safety of the public is not the highest law. 01:07:12.200 --> 01:07:13.790 align:middle line:90% That was my thesis. 01:07:13.790 --> 01:07:17.540 align:middle line:84% Don't get it out here that the highest law that we 01:07:17.540 --> 01:07:19.250 align:middle line:90% try to deal with is no harm. 01:07:19.250 --> 01:07:22.470 align:middle line:84% That is not what engineering is all about. 01:07:22.470 --> 01:07:24.530 align:middle line:84% And so I went through and made that case. 01:07:24.530 --> 01:07:28.510 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So you're saying, as engineering is the highest 01:07:28.510 --> 01:07:31.090 align:middle line:90% law, it's not, do no harm. 01:07:31.090 --> 01:07:33.730 align:middle line:84% But perhaps, engineering-- but do 01:07:33.730 --> 01:07:36.272 align:middle line:84% you hold out that perhaps engineering should 01:07:36.272 --> 01:07:37.480 align:middle line:90% have that as the highest law? 01:07:37.480 --> 01:07:39.090 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: That's a good question. 01:07:39.090 --> 01:07:40.470 align:middle line:84% Now, I'm here to finish this book 01:07:40.470 --> 01:07:41.550 align:middle line:90% on philosophy of engineering. 01:07:41.550 --> 01:07:42.217 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 01:07:42.217 --> 01:07:43.890 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: And one of my-- 01:07:43.890 --> 01:07:46.050 align:middle line:84% probably the biggest point I have in there 01:07:46.050 --> 01:07:47.880 align:middle line:90% is what is the highest law. 01:07:47.880 --> 01:07:52.690 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] I'll give you a hint as to what it is. 01:07:52.690 --> 01:07:54.690 align:middle line:84% And before the class is out, I think 01:07:54.690 --> 01:07:58.970 align:middle line:84% I'll be able to give you some of what I call 01:07:58.970 --> 01:08:01.030 align:middle line:90% the high points of that book. 01:08:01.030 --> 01:08:05.470 align:middle line:84% But what I say is that I break all learned disciplines 01:08:05.470 --> 01:08:06.460 align:middle line:90% in three categories. 01:08:06.460 --> 01:08:07.720 align:middle line:90% You can guess what they are-- 01:08:07.720 --> 01:08:11.230 align:middle line:90% regal, priestly, and popular. 01:08:11.230 --> 01:08:15.220 align:middle line:84% And those are the points of social order. 01:08:15.220 --> 01:08:19.609 align:middle line:84% And I say, that engineering is a regal discipline. 01:08:19.609 --> 01:08:23.689 align:middle line:90% The King wants to build a road. 01:08:23.689 --> 01:08:26.252 align:middle line:84% That's why we have what they call imperative signature. 01:08:26.252 --> 01:08:27.710 align:middle line:84% Where do the imperatives come from? 01:08:27.710 --> 01:08:28.880 align:middle line:90% Not out of the sky. 01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:32.029 align:middle line:84% But from a regal point of view that says, 01:08:32.029 --> 01:08:34.814 align:middle line:90% we want to hold society in tact. 01:08:34.814 --> 01:08:35.689 align:middle line:90% And we want to do it. 01:08:35.689 --> 01:08:37.190 align:middle line:90% Ah, come on, give it a chance. 01:08:37.190 --> 01:08:37.887 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 01:08:37.887 --> 01:08:38.681 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 01:08:38.681 --> 01:08:40.223 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, now, see, Plato, 01:08:40.223 --> 01:08:42.380 align:middle line:84% I wouldn't call him regal, but he's the upper class, 01:08:42.380 --> 01:08:42.950 align:middle line:90% the aristocracy. 01:08:42.950 --> 01:08:43.910 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 01:08:43.910 --> 01:08:45.649 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: It's an aristocratic position-- 01:08:45.649 --> 01:08:46.069 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 01:08:46.069 --> 01:08:48.527 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: --that we're looking for, whereas the middle 01:08:48.527 --> 01:08:50.618 align:middle line:90% class may be referred to as-- 01:08:50.618 --> 01:08:51.660 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: The popular. 01:08:51.660 --> 01:08:53.729 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: --the popular is probably 01:08:53.729 --> 01:08:57.163 align:middle line:84% closer to the middle class, which is what [INAUDIBLE].. 01:08:57.163 --> 01:08:59.455 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And I'm trying to say what engineering is. 01:08:59.455 --> 01:09:01.120 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 01:09:01.120 --> 01:09:03.010 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Only in my last chapter 01:09:03.010 --> 01:09:07.295 align:middle line:84% do I start talking about what I think engineering should be. 01:09:07.295 --> 01:09:08.170 align:middle line:90% And that's out of 14. 01:09:08.170 --> 01:09:11.529 align:middle line:84% 13 chapters are laying down what I think it 01:09:11.529 --> 01:09:13.840 align:middle line:90% is and has been since day one. 01:09:13.840 --> 01:09:17.270 align:middle line:90% 01:09:17.270 --> 01:09:19.640 align:middle line:84% What it should be is a different story. 01:09:19.640 --> 01:09:23.140 align:middle line:84% Well, this step-- we got time to just say this last point, 01:09:23.140 --> 01:09:24.880 align:middle line:90% that engineering-- 01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:28.323 align:middle line:84% I'm talking about engineering as a learned discipline. 01:09:28.323 --> 01:09:29.740 align:middle line:84% I'm talking about engineering when 01:09:29.740 --> 01:09:32.859 align:middle line:84% it got into university courses of study. 01:09:32.859 --> 01:09:35.080 align:middle line:84% I'm not talking about the pyramids. 01:09:35.080 --> 01:09:37.029 align:middle line:84% I'm not talking about the Great Wall of China. 01:09:37.029 --> 01:09:41.200 align:middle line:84% I'm talking about when those artisans met 01:09:41.200 --> 01:09:43.850 align:middle line:90% calculus and physics. 01:09:43.850 --> 01:09:47.240 align:middle line:84% And that is the beginning of what I call engineering 01:09:47.240 --> 01:09:50.060 align:middle line:90% as a learned discipline. 01:09:50.060 --> 01:09:51.890 align:middle line:84% Why did-- on what account did people 01:09:51.890 --> 01:09:54.290 align:middle line:84% say we want these artisans to come together 01:09:54.290 --> 01:09:57.110 align:middle line:90% with physics and math? 01:09:57.110 --> 01:09:58.850 align:middle line:84% Because the military wanted calculus 01:09:58.850 --> 01:10:03.320 align:middle line:84% to do calculations on trajectories for cannonballs 01:10:03.320 --> 01:10:04.310 align:middle line:90% and other things. 01:10:04.310 --> 01:10:10.400 align:middle line:84% So in the military, the mission is more 01:10:10.400 --> 01:10:14.530 align:middle line:90% important than the soldier. 01:10:14.530 --> 01:10:18.590 align:middle line:84% Basically, that's why soldiers get killed. 01:10:18.590 --> 01:10:21.830 align:middle line:84% So we come into engineering with a higher principle. 01:10:21.830 --> 01:10:26.200 align:middle line:90% That is-- and I call that regal. 01:10:26.200 --> 01:10:28.108 align:middle line:84% Dr. Moses would say that that's platonic. 01:10:28.108 --> 01:10:29.400 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Or aristocratic. 01:10:29.400 --> 01:10:31.020 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Or aristocratic. 01:10:31.020 --> 01:10:35.130 align:middle line:84% It's coming in, it's saying the same thing, different angles. 01:10:35.130 --> 01:10:37.650 align:middle line:84% That when you come in from the military, you do 01:10:37.650 --> 01:10:40.540 align:middle line:84% have a higher principle than the safety of the men. 01:10:40.540 --> 01:10:41.248 align:middle line:90% It's the mission. 01:10:41.248 --> 01:10:45.550 align:middle line:90% 01:10:45.550 --> 01:10:53.140 align:middle line:84% So I-S is what I am about with this engineering should be, 01:10:53.140 --> 01:10:55.181 align:middle line:84% but maybe you all can write a paper on that. 01:10:55.181 --> 01:10:56.444 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:10:56.444 --> 01:10:58.942 align:middle line:84% I can probably tell you where you can publish it too. 01:10:58.942 --> 01:10:59.567 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 01:10:59.567 --> 01:11:02.580 align:middle line:84% I'm just thinking about all the-- 01:11:02.580 --> 01:11:04.720 align:middle line:84% another kind of engineering that happens 01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:08.460 align:middle line:84% when members of a society or members of the town, 01:11:08.460 --> 01:11:11.200 align:middle line:84% especially in developing communities, 01:11:11.200 --> 01:11:16.186 align:middle line:84% come together and do engineering in order to make their town 01:11:16.186 --> 01:11:18.700 align:middle line:90% or society work better-- 01:11:18.700 --> 01:11:22.290 align:middle line:84% so the creation of what doesn't already 01:11:22.290 --> 01:11:25.900 align:middle line:84% exist in order to improve their lives, which 01:11:25.900 --> 01:11:31.090 align:middle line:84% it comes from the bottom up instead of from the top down. 01:11:31.090 --> 01:11:33.850 align:middle line:84% But that's not professional engineering 01:11:33.850 --> 01:11:35.440 align:middle line:90% as you're talking about it. 01:11:35.440 --> 01:11:36.508 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: What is? 01:11:36.508 --> 01:11:38.800 align:middle line:84% There are two things about that that's already come up. 01:11:38.800 --> 01:11:42.250 align:middle line:90% 01:11:42.250 --> 01:11:43.310 align:middle line:90% Two things. 01:11:43.310 --> 01:11:52.590 align:middle line:84% One is I'm going to give you a name, Richard Sclove, 01:11:52.590 --> 01:11:59.560 align:middle line:84% S-C-L-O-V-E. [INAUDIBLE] MIT PhD. 01:11:59.560 --> 01:12:05.740 align:middle line:84% He started something-- he wrote a book. 01:12:05.740 --> 01:12:09.130 align:middle line:84% And his book tries to apply what goes-- 01:12:09.130 --> 01:12:12.430 align:middle line:84% there's something that goes on in Denmark to the United 01:12:12.430 --> 01:12:14.140 align:middle line:90% States. 01:12:14.140 --> 01:12:17.500 align:middle line:84% In Denmark, they have this concept 01:12:17.500 --> 01:12:20.260 align:middle line:84% of-- trying to think of what the exact name of it is. 01:12:20.260 --> 01:12:23.215 align:middle line:84% But it's where you have-- wait, actually, 01:12:23.215 --> 01:12:25.100 align:middle line:84% you buy engineering advice pretty 01:12:25.100 --> 01:12:26.350 align:middle line:90% much like you go to the store. 01:12:26.350 --> 01:12:30.720 align:middle line:90% 01:12:30.720 --> 01:12:33.010 align:middle line:84% And Sclove has not written a whole lot of books. 01:12:33.010 --> 01:12:36.150 align:middle line:84% So if you look him up, you'll find, I think, 01:12:36.150 --> 01:12:37.613 align:middle line:90% maybe two or three books. 01:12:37.613 --> 01:12:39.030 align:middle line:84% And the one that I'm talking about 01:12:39.030 --> 01:12:40.290 align:middle line:90% will be obvious by the name. 01:12:40.290 --> 01:12:40.832 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: OK. 01:12:40.832 --> 01:12:43.120 align:middle line:90% 01:12:43.120 --> 01:12:47.550 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And it has a name-- it's a very pedestrian name 01:12:47.550 --> 01:12:50.370 align:middle line:84% that he has for that-- that they have for this concept. 01:12:50.370 --> 01:12:53.080 align:middle line:90% But it seems to work over there. 01:12:53.080 --> 01:12:55.410 align:middle line:84% The second thing is that I went to a conference once. 01:12:55.410 --> 01:12:57.690 align:middle line:90% And a woman-- 01:12:57.690 --> 01:13:01.170 align:middle line:84% I gave a talk, and a woman came to talk to me afterwards. 01:13:01.170 --> 01:13:06.615 align:middle line:84% And she identified herself as the sister of-- 01:13:06.615 --> 01:13:13.310 align:middle line:90% 01:13:13.310 --> 01:13:15.095 align:middle line:84% he ran for president in the last election. 01:13:15.095 --> 01:13:18.630 align:middle line:90% 01:13:18.630 --> 01:13:23.510 align:middle line:90% He is-- what's his name. 01:13:23.510 --> 01:13:25.290 align:middle line:84% I'm having what they call a senior moment. 01:13:25.290 --> 01:13:25.790 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:13:25.790 --> 01:13:27.980 align:middle line:84% I know this guy, he ran for president. 01:13:27.980 --> 01:13:30.370 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: For Democrats or Republican? 01:13:30.370 --> 01:13:31.250 align:middle line:90% No, obviously not. 01:13:31.250 --> 01:13:34.200 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: He ran as an Independent. 01:13:34.200 --> 01:13:36.700 align:middle line:90% And he has-- he's known for-- 01:13:36.700 --> 01:13:39.660 align:middle line:84% he sued one of the automobile companies. 01:13:39.660 --> 01:13:40.410 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: Oh. 01:13:40.410 --> 01:13:40.710 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Nader? 01:13:40.710 --> 01:13:41.010 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER: What's his name. 01:13:41.010 --> 01:13:41.880 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Nader, Ralph Nader. 01:13:41.880 --> 01:13:43.297 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: Nader, Ralph Nader. 01:13:43.297 --> 01:13:45.210 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: She identified herself 01:13:45.210 --> 01:13:47.940 align:middle line:90% as the sister of Ralph Nader. 01:13:47.940 --> 01:13:50.190 align:middle line:90% And she said that in-- 01:13:50.190 --> 01:13:55.710 align:middle line:84% up here in New England someplace, there is a town. 01:13:55.710 --> 01:14:00.060 align:middle line:84% And they have the city engineer and the mayor. 01:14:00.060 --> 01:14:05.130 align:middle line:84% But the citizens have their own engineer [LAUGHS] 01:14:05.130 --> 01:14:08.080 align:middle line:84% as a second opinion for all of this stuff. 01:14:08.080 --> 01:14:13.230 align:middle line:84% And they call that community engineering, which is not out 01:14:13.230 --> 01:14:15.780 align:middle line:84% of the realm of what you're talking about 01:14:15.780 --> 01:14:19.530 align:middle line:84% is not out of the realm of what this Sclove is talking about. 01:14:19.530 --> 01:14:23.880 align:middle line:84% So there are ideas out here about a new kind 01:14:23.880 --> 01:14:24.720 align:middle line:90% of engineering. 01:14:24.720 --> 01:14:28.650 align:middle line:84% None of them, I think, have yet surfaced 01:14:28.650 --> 01:14:30.630 align:middle line:90% as university courses of study. 01:14:30.630 --> 01:14:33.240 align:middle line:90% 01:14:33.240 --> 01:14:35.260 align:middle line:84% And to fit into what I'm talking about, 01:14:35.260 --> 01:14:37.080 align:middle line:90% that's what it has to do. 01:14:37.080 --> 01:14:39.420 align:middle line:84% It has to fit into a university course of study. 01:14:39.420 --> 01:14:42.150 align:middle line:84% Then I can talk about a new kind of engineering. 01:14:42.150 --> 01:14:44.388 align:middle line:84% But yeah, there's new kinds of engineering out there. 01:14:44.388 --> 01:14:46.680 align:middle line:84% And some of them coming down the pipe, and some of them 01:14:46.680 --> 01:14:47.910 align:middle line:90% may hit courses of study. 01:14:47.910 --> 01:14:49.880 align:middle line:84% All you have to do is have a professor say, 01:14:49.880 --> 01:14:53.960 align:middle line:84% he or she is going to do it, or a grad student [LAUGHS] 01:14:53.960 --> 01:14:56.605 align:middle line:84% to say they want to take a course in it. 01:14:56.605 --> 01:14:58.230 align:middle line:84% So yeah, there's something coming down. 01:14:58.230 --> 01:15:00.750 align:middle line:84% Not only that, but we have not even explored it. 01:15:00.750 --> 01:15:03.038 align:middle line:90% All I'm talking about-- notice-- 01:15:03.038 --> 01:15:04.830 align:middle line:84% all I'm talking about is the United States. 01:15:04.830 --> 01:15:05.455 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 01:15:05.455 --> 01:15:08.520 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: There's a whole other world out there. 01:15:08.520 --> 01:15:09.820 align:middle line:90% We need to get all of us-- 01:15:09.820 --> 01:15:11.190 align:middle line:90% everybody involved. 01:15:11.190 --> 01:15:13.470 align:middle line:84% Who knows what's going on [INAUDIBLE]?? 01:15:13.470 --> 01:15:16.000 align:middle line:84% Denmark is the only time I went outside United States. 01:15:16.000 --> 01:15:19.520 align:middle line:90% 01:15:19.520 --> 01:15:21.620 align:middle line:90% So we got all of this-- 01:15:21.620 --> 01:15:26.030 align:middle line:84% all of these complexities with this Challenger case. 01:15:26.030 --> 01:15:30.020 align:middle line:84% Let's see what we can do with some of the analysis points. 01:15:30.020 --> 01:15:32.860 align:middle line:90% 01:15:32.860 --> 01:15:34.795 align:middle line:84% With some of the math analysis points. 01:15:34.795 --> 01:15:38.340 align:middle line:90% 01:15:38.340 --> 01:15:52.600 align:middle line:84% I would think that the principle that Hans Mark was making 01:15:52.600 --> 01:15:57.165 align:middle line:84% is a principle that it's a contract. 01:15:57.165 --> 01:16:00.590 align:middle line:90% 01:16:00.590 --> 01:16:02.240 align:middle line:84% I think that Hans Mark is going to be 01:16:02.240 --> 01:16:09.110 align:middle line:84% able to point to someplace where the American public has given 01:16:09.110 --> 01:16:13.550 align:middle line:84% NASA a mission to do these things and has said, 01:16:13.550 --> 01:16:17.570 align:middle line:84% do them, and not necessarily be constrained 01:16:17.570 --> 01:16:22.940 align:middle line:84% by all of the principles of science to do them. 01:16:22.940 --> 01:16:25.100 align:middle line:84% And they certainly would not say, 01:16:25.100 --> 01:16:27.650 align:middle line:84% don't be constrained by all of the principles of ethics 01:16:27.650 --> 01:16:28.880 align:middle line:90% they're doing. 01:16:28.880 --> 01:16:33.570 align:middle line:84% But I think that that's the way he interpreted it. 01:16:33.570 --> 01:16:36.600 align:middle line:84% That the people at NASA have a contract 01:16:36.600 --> 01:16:39.240 align:middle line:90% with the American people. 01:16:39.240 --> 01:16:43.350 align:middle line:84% And most of that contract, but not all of it, 01:16:43.350 --> 01:16:49.080 align:middle line:84% is formally made through the representation 01:16:49.080 --> 01:16:52.700 align:middle line:84% of, quote unquote, the people, to NASA. 01:16:52.700 --> 01:16:55.460 align:middle line:90% 01:16:55.460 --> 01:16:57.230 align:middle line:90% So he's going to use a-- 01:16:57.230 --> 01:17:02.280 align:middle line:84% now, there's a term here that is going to be tricky. 01:17:02.280 --> 01:17:04.760 align:middle line:84% It would seem like a good term for this kind of contract 01:17:04.760 --> 01:17:10.200 align:middle line:84% would be what you would want to-- would be social contract. 01:17:10.200 --> 01:17:13.290 align:middle line:84% Well, there's already the term social contract 01:17:13.290 --> 01:17:15.420 align:middle line:84% in philosophy and in political science that 01:17:15.420 --> 01:17:17.140 align:middle line:90% means something else. 01:17:17.140 --> 01:17:20.770 align:middle line:90% So let's not use that term. 01:17:20.770 --> 01:17:22.650 align:middle line:84% Let's reserve it for something else. 01:17:22.650 --> 01:17:24.870 align:middle line:84% I'll get into that at some point in time. 01:17:24.870 --> 01:17:27.000 align:middle line:90% I'll definitely get into it. 01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:30.240 align:middle line:84% But it's a contract that he would 01:17:30.240 --> 01:17:33.670 align:middle line:84% say is what he has with the American people. 01:17:33.670 --> 01:17:36.720 align:middle line:84% And as long as this affected nobody 01:17:36.720 --> 01:17:41.790 align:middle line:84% else other than American people, then 01:17:41.790 --> 01:17:43.710 align:middle line:84% if Hans Mark was sitting here, he 01:17:43.710 --> 01:17:47.048 align:middle line:84% would say, if you don't want us to do it anymore, 01:17:47.048 --> 01:17:47.840 align:middle line:90% make some new laws. 01:17:47.840 --> 01:17:50.810 align:middle line:90% 01:17:50.810 --> 01:17:52.090 align:middle line:90% Or give NASA a new mission. 01:17:52.090 --> 01:17:56.340 align:middle line:90% 01:17:56.340 --> 01:18:00.290 align:middle line:84% I have to apologize, but I forgot, 01:18:00.290 --> 01:18:03.642 align:middle line:90% but I had a newspaper article. 01:18:03.642 --> 01:18:05.600 align:middle line:84% And I can tell you right where it is right now. 01:18:05.600 --> 01:18:09.095 align:middle line:84% It's on my dining room table in my apartment. 01:18:09.095 --> 01:18:10.670 align:middle line:90% And I forgot to bring it. 01:18:10.670 --> 01:18:11.930 align:middle line:90% I apologize. 01:18:11.930 --> 01:18:13.190 align:middle line:90% But it's common knowledge. 01:18:13.190 --> 01:18:16.910 align:middle line:84% And I was hoping to get Sheila Widnall over here. 01:18:16.910 --> 01:18:18.350 align:middle line:90% I invited her. 01:18:18.350 --> 01:18:20.000 align:middle line:90% She hasn't gotten back to me. 01:18:20.000 --> 01:18:28.550 align:middle line:84% But NASA, the conclusion made about this and about 01:18:28.550 --> 01:18:33.620 align:middle line:84% the Columbia from the standpoint of investigating 01:18:33.620 --> 01:18:37.220 align:middle line:84% committees out of Congress was that NASA 01:18:37.220 --> 01:18:40.520 align:middle line:84% got into these problems because it 01:18:40.520 --> 01:18:47.890 align:middle line:84% had a certain cultural problem of get things done, 01:18:47.890 --> 01:18:49.240 align:middle line:90% make the deadlines. 01:18:49.240 --> 01:18:53.600 align:middle line:84% It was a kind of a culture that pervaded over everybody. 01:18:53.600 --> 01:18:58.600 align:middle line:84% And in a sense, that is not too polite. 01:18:58.600 --> 01:19:01.720 align:middle line:84% It makes it sound like people say, well, the culture made 01:19:01.720 --> 01:19:03.830 align:middle line:90% me do it. 01:19:03.830 --> 01:19:07.930 align:middle line:84% Well, I use that term, because I know that having used it, 01:19:07.930 --> 01:19:10.000 align:middle line:90% you won't forget it. 01:19:10.000 --> 01:19:13.990 align:middle line:84% Now that I've used it, let me say that there's 01:19:13.990 --> 01:19:16.390 align:middle line:90% some justification for that. 01:19:16.390 --> 01:19:17.950 align:middle line:84% I'm not saying entirely justified. 01:19:17.950 --> 01:19:21.610 align:middle line:84% But what happens is is that people just 01:19:21.610 --> 01:19:26.290 align:middle line:84% get in a mode of doing things every day. 01:19:26.290 --> 01:19:27.860 align:middle line:90% I worked for NASA. 01:19:27.860 --> 01:19:30.280 align:middle line:84% I held grants from NASA for 12 years. 01:19:30.280 --> 01:19:33.400 align:middle line:84% I feel like an insider with NASA. 01:19:33.400 --> 01:19:38.080 align:middle line:84% I have an emotional attachment to NASA. 01:19:38.080 --> 01:19:40.610 align:middle line:84% But I don't think that justifies what they do. 01:19:40.610 --> 01:19:42.610 align:middle line:90% But I think it explains it. 01:19:42.610 --> 01:19:44.050 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Does it [INAUDIBLE]? 01:19:44.050 --> 01:19:46.940 align:middle line:90% 01:19:46.940 --> 01:19:49.330 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Now, the report never said that, 01:19:49.330 --> 01:19:51.745 align:middle line:84% except for the whistleblowers, as I recall it, 01:19:51.745 --> 01:19:53.870 align:middle line:84% that there are other people who disagree with that. 01:19:53.870 --> 01:19:57.880 align:middle line:84% They just said that this whole NASA culture is-- 01:19:57.880 --> 01:20:01.910 align:middle line:84% now, saying that, if I get Dr. Widnall who's here at MIT-- 01:20:01.910 --> 01:20:03.910 align:middle line:90% I don't know if you know her. 01:20:03.910 --> 01:20:05.942 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 01:20:05.942 --> 01:20:07.260 align:middle line:90% 01:20:07.260 --> 01:20:09.600 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: I don't know if she'll really want to come. 01:20:09.600 --> 01:20:10.740 align:middle line:90% But I invited her. 01:20:10.740 --> 01:20:13.800 align:middle line:90% She said she'd think about it. 01:20:13.800 --> 01:20:16.888 align:middle line:84% And I invited her to talk about the ethics and the facts. 01:20:16.888 --> 01:20:18.930 align:middle line:84% But if she does not want to talk about the ethics 01:20:18.930 --> 01:20:22.628 align:middle line:84% and just talk about the facts, that's good enough. 01:20:22.628 --> 01:20:25.170 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: What the culture that they are concerned about 01:20:25.170 --> 01:20:26.712 align:middle line:84% is what they call the safety culture. 01:20:26.712 --> 01:20:28.045 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: The safety culture. 01:20:28.045 --> 01:20:30.060 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: And after the Challenger, 01:20:30.060 --> 01:20:33.180 align:middle line:84% there was a lot of attention paid to safety. 01:20:33.180 --> 01:20:35.090 align:middle line:90% And that eroded over time. 01:20:35.090 --> 01:20:38.160 align:middle line:84% And as you point out, the issue of time, 01:20:38.160 --> 01:20:40.920 align:middle line:84% and budget, et cetera, took over. 01:20:40.920 --> 01:20:45.930 align:middle line:84% And the safety issues became less and less important 01:20:45.930 --> 01:20:46.890 align:middle line:90% to the people. 01:20:46.890 --> 01:20:51.910 align:middle line:84% And so we got the Columbia situation. 01:20:51.910 --> 01:20:54.690 align:middle line:84% And so there's a lot of attention now being 01:20:54.690 --> 01:20:58.200 align:middle line:84% paid to the safety issues, and how 01:20:58.200 --> 01:21:01.530 align:middle line:84% they're going to embed that into NASA, et cetera. 01:21:01.530 --> 01:21:03.425 align:middle line:90% We have another faculty member. 01:21:03.425 --> 01:21:05.150 align:middle line:90% Maybe you can get her to come. 01:21:05.150 --> 01:21:07.910 align:middle line:84% But she's only available on Friday. 01:21:07.910 --> 01:21:09.092 align:middle line:90% Her name is Nancy Levinson-- 01:21:09.092 --> 01:21:09.800 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 01:21:09.800 --> 01:21:12.080 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: --who is the safety person 01:21:12.080 --> 01:21:14.473 align:middle line:90% that NASA has hired. 01:21:14.473 --> 01:21:16.390 align:middle line:84% And that's why she's only here one day a week. 01:21:16.390 --> 01:21:19.930 align:middle line:84% She's spending all her time dealing with NASA issues 01:21:19.930 --> 01:21:24.825 align:middle line:84% on how to embed this safety culture into the organization. 01:21:24.825 --> 01:21:26.200 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, Nancy Levinson 01:21:26.200 --> 01:21:29.588 align:middle line:84% is going to get an invitation to either come or interact 01:21:29.588 --> 01:21:30.130 align:middle line:90% or something. 01:21:30.130 --> 01:21:33.937 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER: It will probably have to be in another time. 01:21:33.937 --> 01:21:36.020 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, that might be an occasion where 01:21:36.020 --> 01:21:37.295 align:middle line:90% we can have our special class. 01:21:37.295 --> 01:21:41.190 align:middle line:90% 01:21:41.190 --> 01:21:43.320 align:middle line:84% Just have it on a Friday when she can come 01:21:43.320 --> 01:21:47.190 align:middle line:84% and have her lead the discussion. 01:21:47.190 --> 01:21:48.150 align:middle line:90% I worked with her once. 01:21:48.150 --> 01:21:50.670 align:middle line:90% 01:21:50.670 --> 01:21:54.967 align:middle line:84% It was with-- we've got to get ready to go. 01:21:54.967 --> 01:21:56.300 align:middle line:90% But anyway, that's where we are. 01:21:56.300 --> 01:21:59.180 align:middle line:84% I think we've covered all the housekeeping issues. 01:21:59.180 --> 01:22:01.190 align:middle line:90% Am I right? 01:22:01.190 --> 01:22:04.620 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Should we be prepared to do another case on Tuesday? 01:22:04.620 --> 01:22:05.580 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 01:22:05.580 --> 01:22:07.980 align:middle line:84% You should be prepared to finish the Challenger case 01:22:07.980 --> 01:22:10.290 align:middle line:90% and to do the Ford Pinto case. 01:22:10.290 --> 01:22:12.743 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: OK. 01:22:12.743 --> 01:22:13.410 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: OK? 01:22:13.410 --> 01:22:13.910 align:middle line:90% Good. 01:22:13.910 --> 01:22:15.560 align:middle line:90% All right.