WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.515 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.515 --> 00:00:01.890 align:middle line:84% SPEAKER: The following content is 00:00:01.890 --> 00:00:05.250 align:middle line:84% provided by MIT OpenCourseWare under a Creative Commons 00:00:05.250 --> 00:00:06.330 align:middle line:90% license. 00:00:06.330 --> 00:00:08.430 align:middle line:84% Additional information about our license 00:00:08.430 --> 00:00:10.800 align:middle line:84% and MIT OpenCourseWare in general 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:12.740 align:middle line:90% is available ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:12.740 --> 00:00:16.883 align:middle line:90% 00:00:16.883 --> 00:00:18.050 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Line engineers. 00:00:18.050 --> 00:00:22.230 align:middle line:84% A line engineer is what you and I would call a practicing 00:00:22.230 --> 00:00:22.730 align:middle line:90% engineer. 00:00:22.730 --> 00:00:25.460 align:middle line:90% 00:00:25.460 --> 00:00:32.610 align:middle line:84% That term is used in distinction to management, 00:00:32.610 --> 00:00:34.560 align:middle line:84% who are people who were, at one time, 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:37.570 align:middle line:84% line engineers for the most part. 00:00:37.570 --> 00:00:41.260 align:middle line:84% When I say management, I'm saying engineering management. 00:00:41.260 --> 00:00:43.960 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:50.960 align:middle line:84% And as you recall from the Challenger case, when this vice 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:52.670 align:middle line:84% president took off his engineering hat 00:00:52.670 --> 00:00:55.940 align:middle line:84% and put on his management hat and changed the decision, 00:00:55.940 --> 00:01:00.570 align:middle line:84% there are different points of view 00:01:00.570 --> 00:01:03.140 align:middle line:84% and different professional responsibilities 00:01:03.140 --> 00:01:06.110 align:middle line:84% that line engineers have as opposed 00:01:06.110 --> 00:01:08.390 align:middle line:90% to engineering managers. 00:01:08.390 --> 00:01:13.940 align:middle line:84% And engineering managers have the greater authority, 00:01:13.940 --> 00:01:16.790 align:middle line:84% but there is definitely a difference 00:01:16.790 --> 00:01:25.820 align:middle line:84% in job requirement and, for this class, contract, 00:01:25.820 --> 00:01:28.310 align:middle line:90% and point of view. 00:01:28.310 --> 00:01:31.960 align:middle line:90% 00:01:31.960 --> 00:01:42.940 align:middle line:84% So the professional societies are largely line engineers. 00:01:42.940 --> 00:01:50.825 align:middle line:84% However, the leaderships of these professional societies 00:01:50.825 --> 00:01:52.280 align:middle line:90% ARE largely manageRS. 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:57.660 align:middle line:90% 00:01:57.660 --> 00:02:00.410 align:middle line:90% So the NSpe came along. 00:02:00.410 --> 00:02:01.880 align:middle line:90% They were young engineers. 00:02:01.880 --> 00:02:04.430 align:middle line:84% They were almost all line engineers. 00:02:04.430 --> 00:02:06.890 align:middle line:90% They were idealistic. 00:02:06.890 --> 00:02:10.009 align:middle line:84% And they wanted engineering to do all of the right things, 00:02:10.009 --> 00:02:17.160 align:middle line:84% even if it meant some bad things for their client or employer. 00:02:17.160 --> 00:02:22.680 align:middle line:84% And they set the mold with this code of ethics. 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.050 align:middle line:90% And in the '60s-- 00:02:25.050 --> 00:02:32.220 align:middle line:84% the late '60s-- when we had all of the social movements that 00:02:32.220 --> 00:02:37.800 align:middle line:84% led to the creation of the STS and then engineering ethics, 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:41.850 align:middle line:84% that movement was sympathetic to the NSPE code, 00:02:41.850 --> 00:02:43.980 align:middle line:90% not to the ASE and the others. 00:02:43.980 --> 00:02:46.380 align:middle line:84% So eventually they all came as close 00:02:46.380 --> 00:02:48.000 align:middle line:90% to NSPE as they could get. 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:52.750 align:middle line:90% 00:02:52.750 --> 00:03:01.140 align:middle line:84% So you'll find this difference between management and line 00:03:01.140 --> 00:03:10.040 align:middle line:84% engineer in the University, if you 00:03:10.040 --> 00:03:19.780 align:middle line:84% observe the faculty and administration, then 00:03:19.780 --> 00:03:21.603 align:middle line:84% the likenesses and the differences 00:03:21.603 --> 00:03:23.020 align:middle line:84% are going to be very much the same 00:03:23.020 --> 00:03:25.735 align:middle line:84% between line engineers and managers. 00:03:25.735 --> 00:03:29.460 align:middle line:90% 00:03:29.460 --> 00:03:35.380 align:middle line:84% There's this book-- there were some books that 00:03:35.380 --> 00:03:42.380 align:middle line:84% were very scathing on the academy that came out 00:03:42.380 --> 00:03:44.300 align:middle line:90% in the '60s. 00:03:44.300 --> 00:03:48.080 align:middle line:84% One was called The Professor Scam, 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:52.020 align:middle line:84% and there were a bunch of others. 00:03:52.020 --> 00:03:56.610 align:middle line:84% And one of them had, on the cover, 00:03:56.610 --> 00:04:06.270 align:middle line:84% that what are we talking about here when we say administration 00:04:06.270 --> 00:04:08.470 align:middle line:90% versus faculty. 00:04:08.470 --> 00:04:10.240 align:middle line:84% Thus was written for the general public. 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.460 align:middle line:90% They're all the same. 00:04:13.460 --> 00:04:15.750 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: In the eyes of the general public, you mean? 00:04:15.750 --> 00:04:17.417 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: That's what this person was 00:04:17.417 --> 00:04:19.110 align:middle line:84% trying to create it as a general public, 00:04:19.110 --> 00:04:20.677 align:middle line:90% and he had good reasons. 00:04:20.677 --> 00:04:23.010 align:middle line:84% He said, they're all the same so far as we're concerned. 00:04:23.010 --> 00:04:24.720 align:middle line:90% They all got PhDs. 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:27.255 align:middle line:84% They were all faculty members, at least at one time. 00:04:27.255 --> 00:04:28.380 align:middle line:90% What are you talking about? 00:04:28.380 --> 00:04:30.130 align:middle line:84% A college president can't get a presidency 00:04:30.130 --> 00:04:32.550 align:middle line:84% without having a full professorship in one 00:04:32.550 --> 00:04:37.710 align:middle line:84% of the academic departments at all places that I know of. 00:04:37.710 --> 00:04:40.198 align:middle line:84% So from the outside, what are you-- 00:04:40.198 --> 00:04:41.115 align:middle line:90% we're splitting hairs. 00:04:41.115 --> 00:04:45.278 align:middle line:90% 00:04:45.278 --> 00:04:47.300 align:middle line:84% And someone can say the same thing 00:04:47.300 --> 00:04:49.323 align:middle line:84% about engineering, the profession, 00:04:49.323 --> 00:04:51.740 align:middle line:84% that we're splitting hairs when you talk about engineering 00:04:51.740 --> 00:04:53.240 align:middle line:90% management versus engineers. 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:56.270 align:middle line:84% And there is a gray area in the university, where 00:04:56.270 --> 00:05:03.440 align:middle line:84% it's hard for everybody to decide whether the department 00:05:03.440 --> 00:05:08.895 align:middle line:90% chairs or managers or faculty. 00:05:08.895 --> 00:05:11.330 align:middle line:84% It varies from institution the institution from time 00:05:11.330 --> 00:05:15.560 align:middle line:84% to time from Department to Department. 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:19.820 align:middle line:84% But there's this real gray area that's hard to deal with. 00:05:19.820 --> 00:05:25.130 align:middle line:84% And at many institutions a department chair 00:05:25.130 --> 00:05:29.960 align:middle line:84% has to be reviewed by the faculty every so often. 00:05:29.960 --> 00:05:32.210 align:middle line:84% If the review is bad, you're out. 00:05:32.210 --> 00:05:38.000 align:middle line:84% The department chair has to be reviewed by the dean every day. 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:41.510 align:middle line:84% So the department chair is sort of an in-between case. 00:05:41.510 --> 00:05:45.200 align:middle line:84% And I'm certain that in all the places that I have worked-- 00:05:45.200 --> 00:05:48.920 align:middle line:84% not many, but-- we're talking about NASA, Nuclear Regulatory 00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:54.380 align:middle line:84% Commission, and the US Army Corps of Engineers, 00:05:54.380 --> 00:05:58.430 align:middle line:84% there is a position of responsibility 00:05:58.430 --> 00:06:00.890 align:middle line:84% that I liken to department chair. 00:06:00.890 --> 00:06:03.650 align:middle line:84% It's kind of hard to decide where they fit. 00:06:03.650 --> 00:06:06.830 align:middle line:90% 00:06:06.830 --> 00:06:09.650 align:middle line:84% So the other important thing is to remember 00:06:09.650 --> 00:06:13.670 align:middle line:84% that I did say that the sentiments of the late '60s 00:06:13.670 --> 00:06:18.970 align:middle line:84% that brought STS, and thus engineering ethics into being, 00:06:18.970 --> 00:06:22.732 align:middle line:84% were on the side of NSPE and the line engineers. 00:06:22.732 --> 00:06:24.190 align:middle line:84% Because that's where you get mainly 00:06:24.190 --> 00:06:28.000 align:middle line:84% the whistle blowers from and all of that. 00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:29.380 align:middle line:90% Things could change. 00:06:29.380 --> 00:06:31.700 align:middle line:84% Things had changed, but that's where we are. 00:06:31.700 --> 00:06:34.930 align:middle line:84% And the importance of NSPE is that most 00:06:34.930 --> 00:06:37.150 align:middle line:84% of the codes, I think it's fair to say, 00:06:37.150 --> 00:06:41.380 align:middle line:84% the lion's share of the codes, that are out 00:06:41.380 --> 00:06:47.160 align:middle line:84% that are enforced today use the NSP code as a starting point. 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.285 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It's interesting we have this discussion. 00:06:49.285 --> 00:06:52.320 align:middle line:84% I actually found an article [INAUDIBLE],, 00:06:52.320 --> 00:06:54.876 align:middle line:84% and one of the things you said in terms of the goals 00:06:54.876 --> 00:06:59.228 align:middle line:84% for code of ethics for the AAES is to get engineers involved 00:06:59.228 --> 00:07:03.090 align:middle line:84% and take an active role in [INAUDIBLE].. 00:07:03.090 --> 00:07:03.840 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:07:03.840 --> 00:07:05.552 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It's interesting [INAUDIBLE] 00:07:05.552 --> 00:07:07.200 align:middle line:84% think about it until now, there really 00:07:07.200 --> 00:07:10.830 align:middle line:84% is a division between engineering management and line 00:07:10.830 --> 00:07:11.330 align:middle line:90% engineers. 00:07:11.330 --> 00:07:11.720 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:13.145 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And that both interests 00:07:13.145 --> 00:07:15.520 align:middle line:84% seem to be production and creative. 00:07:15.520 --> 00:07:17.350 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: That's right. 00:07:17.350 --> 00:07:18.990 align:middle line:90% That's right. 00:07:18.990 --> 00:07:19.800 align:middle line:90% That's right. 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:23.340 align:middle line:84% And I don't know what word is best 00:07:23.340 --> 00:07:27.015 align:middle line:84% to describe the relationship between the two. 00:07:27.015 --> 00:07:30.300 align:middle line:84% It varies from, place to place, but you 00:07:30.300 --> 00:07:32.100 align:middle line:84% need to be aware that there is a line. 00:07:32.100 --> 00:07:35.640 align:middle line:84% And if you want to be vice president for engineering, 00:07:35.640 --> 00:07:38.970 align:middle line:84% you're going to have to go up through the management line, 00:07:38.970 --> 00:07:41.190 align:middle line:84% and you're going to have to deal with these people-- 00:07:41.190 --> 00:07:42.840 align:middle line:90% people that you were a part of. 00:07:42.840 --> 00:07:46.290 align:middle line:90% 00:07:46.290 --> 00:07:49.050 align:middle line:84% And they're going to have to deal with. 00:07:49.050 --> 00:07:51.690 align:middle line:84% Also-- oh, there's another subtlety. 00:07:51.690 --> 00:07:57.180 align:middle line:84% And that is that once you decide to go the management root, 00:07:57.180 --> 00:08:00.690 align:middle line:84% it's very difficult to come back, 00:08:00.690 --> 00:08:02.445 align:middle line:90% because you lose those skills. 00:08:02.445 --> 00:08:06.900 align:middle line:90% 00:08:06.900 --> 00:08:08.620 align:middle line:84% A person who is not a professional 00:08:08.620 --> 00:08:11.490 align:middle line:84% is going to find what I'm about to say impossible to believe. 00:08:11.490 --> 00:08:15.720 align:middle line:84% You do not have to know more or even as much 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:18.720 align:middle line:84% as the people know that you manage in order 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:19.740 align:middle line:90% to manage them well. 00:08:19.740 --> 00:08:22.500 align:middle line:90% 00:08:22.500 --> 00:08:26.930 align:middle line:84% And a good place to learn it is in the army. 00:08:26.930 --> 00:08:30.080 align:middle line:84% Second Lieutenant is 22 years old. 00:08:30.080 --> 00:08:31.310 align:middle line:90% Sergeant, 40 years old. 00:08:31.310 --> 00:08:33.570 align:middle line:84% Second Lieutenant doesn't know 1/10 00:08:33.570 --> 00:08:36.890 align:middle line:84% of what the Sergeant knows, but the Lieutenant 00:08:36.890 --> 00:08:38.530 align:middle line:90% is not supposed to. 00:08:38.530 --> 00:08:40.010 align:middle line:84% The Lieutenant is supposed to know 00:08:40.010 --> 00:08:42.010 align:middle line:84% when the job is done right, and when it's wrong, 00:08:42.010 --> 00:08:44.960 align:middle line:84% and when to pass the order down from a high-- interface 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:48.290 align:middle line:90% that unit with the higher unit. 00:08:48.290 --> 00:08:51.658 align:middle line:84% But the Sergeant's supposed to do all this other stuff. 00:08:51.658 --> 00:08:53.700 align:middle line:84% And the Lieutenant tells the Sergeant what to do, 00:08:53.700 --> 00:08:56.543 align:middle line:84% and the Sergeant get the [INAUDIBLE].. 00:08:56.543 --> 00:08:58.210 align:middle line:84% Tell them what to do and do all of that. 00:08:58.210 --> 00:09:03.270 align:middle line:84% So you have to learn and appreciate that. 00:09:03.270 --> 00:09:06.260 align:middle line:84% Engineering is set up the same way, 00:09:06.260 --> 00:09:09.530 align:middle line:84% that you don't as much about putting steel and concrete 00:09:09.530 --> 00:09:10.850 align:middle line:90% as the steel workers do. 00:09:10.850 --> 00:09:11.816 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:09:11.816 --> 00:09:15.130 align:middle line:84% The manager can't possibly know all of the fundamentals 00:09:15.130 --> 00:09:16.382 align:middle line:90% of all of it. 00:09:16.382 --> 00:09:17.840 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Even If you did know-- 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:18.760 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 00:09:18.760 --> 00:09:19.552 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:09:19.552 --> 00:09:22.970 align:middle line:84% Even if you did know, even if you were a steel worker and now 00:09:22.970 --> 00:09:25.920 align:middle line:84% a manager, a couple of years down the line 00:09:25.920 --> 00:09:29.390 align:middle line:84% you're going to lose your competence even. 00:09:29.390 --> 00:09:33.293 align:middle line:84% Things are going to change, [INAUDIBLE].. 00:09:33.293 --> 00:09:35.210 align:middle line:84% So that's another thing you have to deal with. 00:09:35.210 --> 00:09:39.640 align:middle line:84% So let's see if we can't interrogate this code. 00:09:39.640 --> 00:09:40.810 align:middle line:90% How is it organized? 00:09:40.810 --> 00:09:42.100 align:middle line:90% Does it have a preamble? 00:09:42.100 --> 00:09:44.763 align:middle line:90% Does it have sections? 00:09:44.763 --> 00:09:48.550 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: The NSPE seems to be the most compartmentalized. 00:09:48.550 --> 00:09:49.902 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: All right. 00:09:49.902 --> 00:09:52.285 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It has four distinct sections. 00:09:52.285 --> 00:09:53.410 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: What are they? 00:09:53.410 --> 00:09:56.510 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Preamble, which that's what 00:09:56.510 --> 00:10:01.450 align:middle line:84% engineering is as a profession, the fundamental canons. 00:10:01.450 --> 00:10:05.350 align:middle line:84% Which are pretty much repeated in all of the other codes, 00:10:05.350 --> 00:10:07.192 align:middle line:90% except maybe [INAUDIBLE]. 00:10:07.192 --> 00:10:09.665 align:middle line:90% 00:10:09.665 --> 00:10:10.373 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:10:10.373 --> 00:10:13.211 align:middle line:84% So there's fundamental canons, preamble fundamental canons, 00:10:13.211 --> 00:10:14.160 align:middle line:90% which are brief. 00:10:14.160 --> 00:10:18.040 align:middle line:84% Then the rules of practice are divided up according 00:10:18.040 --> 00:10:20.320 align:middle line:90% to each fundamental canon. 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:23.993 align:middle line:84% And then professional obligations. 00:10:23.993 --> 00:10:24.660 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: OK. 00:10:24.660 --> 00:10:26.630 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And there's a lot of them. 00:10:26.630 --> 00:10:29.130 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, the preamble-- 00:10:29.130 --> 00:10:33.418 align:middle line:84% let's read the preamble and then let's go through the canons. 00:10:33.418 --> 00:10:35.210 align:middle line:84% There are how many-- six and seven of them? 00:10:35.210 --> 00:10:35.793 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Six. 00:10:35.793 --> 00:10:36.800 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Six. 00:10:36.800 --> 00:10:38.690 align:middle line:84% Let's go through the canons, and then let's 00:10:38.690 --> 00:10:42.710 align:middle line:84% pick out any of the other parts that we want to talk about. 00:10:42.710 --> 00:10:45.807 align:middle line:84% So somebody read the preamble, please. 00:10:45.807 --> 00:10:47.390 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Engineering is an1 important 00:10:47.390 --> 00:10:48.910 align:middle line:90% and learned profession. 00:10:48.910 --> 00:10:51.320 align:middle line:84% As members of this profession, engineers 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:54.320 align:middle line:84% are expected to exhibit the highest standards of honesty 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:55.508 align:middle line:90% and integrity. 00:10:55.508 --> 00:10:58.460 align:middle line:84% Engineering has a direct and vital impact 00:10:58.460 --> 00:11:00.850 align:middle line:90% on the quality of life for all. 00:11:00.850 --> 00:11:03.360 align:middle line:84% Accordingly, the services provided by engineers 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:07.100 align:middle line:84% require honesty, impartiality, fairness, and equity, 00:11:07.100 --> 00:11:09.180 align:middle line:84% and must be dedicated to the protection 00:11:09.180 --> 00:11:12.090 align:middle line:84% of the public health, safety, and welfare. 00:11:12.090 --> 00:11:14.160 align:middle line:84% Engineers must perform under a standard 00:11:14.160 --> 00:11:16.500 align:middle line:84% of professional behavior that requires adherence 00:11:16.500 --> 00:11:20.443 align:middle line:84% to the highest principles of ethical conduct. 00:11:20.443 --> 00:11:21.110 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: OK. 00:11:21.110 --> 00:11:24.150 align:middle line:84% So there's a statement of what the profession is. 00:11:24.150 --> 00:11:25.940 align:middle line:84% It's subject to debate, but that's 00:11:25.940 --> 00:11:31.440 align:middle line:84% the statement that is authorized by this organization. 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:31.970 align:middle line:90% All right. 00:11:31.970 --> 00:11:33.880 align:middle line:84% Do we have any problems with that statement? 00:11:33.880 --> 00:11:36.120 align:middle line:84% Yeah, we got problems with the statement. 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:37.580 align:middle line:90% Do we think that-- 00:11:37.580 --> 00:11:40.980 align:middle line:84% when I say we have problems, you comment any way you want. 00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:43.430 align:middle line:84% But I really want to know if you think that there's 00:11:43.430 --> 00:11:46.100 align:middle line:84% anything about that statement that should not 00:11:46.100 --> 00:11:48.523 align:middle line:84% be in a professional organization's preamble 00:11:48.523 --> 00:11:49.565 align:middle line:90% up to its code of ethics. 00:11:49.565 --> 00:11:52.610 align:middle line:90% 00:11:52.610 --> 00:11:56.515 align:middle line:84% Have they deceived anybody about the greatness of engineering? 00:11:56.515 --> 00:12:00.400 align:middle line:90% 00:12:00.400 --> 00:12:04.800 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, what strikes me when I read this is, 00:12:04.800 --> 00:12:11.970 align:middle line:84% wow, this is not something that all engineers either believe 00:12:11.970 --> 00:12:14.430 align:middle line:84% or are given the opportunity to believe, 00:12:14.430 --> 00:12:16.636 align:middle line:84% because it's not a definition [INAUDIBLE].. 00:12:16.636 --> 00:12:19.558 align:middle line:90% 00:12:19.558 --> 00:12:20.350 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:12:20.350 --> 00:12:22.090 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: That doesn't answer your question of whether or not 00:12:22.090 --> 00:12:23.004 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE]. 00:12:23.004 --> 00:12:25.750 align:middle line:90% 00:12:25.750 --> 00:12:26.375 align:middle line:90% but-- 00:12:26.375 --> 00:12:27.500 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Well, it does. 00:12:27.500 --> 00:12:32.710 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Does their statement of what engineering is 00:12:32.710 --> 00:12:35.366 align:middle line:84% require that all engineers believe it? 00:12:35.366 --> 00:12:39.377 align:middle line:90% 00:12:39.377 --> 00:12:40.210 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Oh, OK. 00:12:40.210 --> 00:12:41.800 align:middle line:90% I'm sorry. 00:12:41.800 --> 00:12:43.554 align:middle line:84% Is it rubbing up against this pen I think? 00:12:43.554 --> 00:12:45.450 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: It's going like this. 00:12:45.450 --> 00:12:46.146 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Oh. 00:12:46.146 --> 00:12:48.330 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:12:48.330 --> 00:12:48.940 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:12:48.940 --> 00:12:49.440 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:53.052 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: This actually makes me think of [INAUDIBLE] 00:12:53.052 --> 00:12:53.760 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:12:53.760 --> 00:12:56.604 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: In the army they give you a code, and they give you, 00:12:56.604 --> 00:12:59.922 align:middle line:84% you know, something, and it's almost like a moral reward. 00:12:59.922 --> 00:13:02.523 align:middle line:84% And so even if this isn't necessarily true, 00:13:02.523 --> 00:13:04.440 align:middle line:84% I think it probably belongs, because if you're 00:13:04.440 --> 00:13:07.260 align:middle line:84% entering this profession, it might 00:13:07.260 --> 00:13:10.120 align:middle line:84% be good to think about these ideals that maybe-- 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:10.870 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:13:10.870 --> 00:13:12.120 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: --try to aspire to-- 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:14.632 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I think the [INAUDIBLE].. 00:13:14.632 --> 00:13:16.590 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: If there's anything wrong with it, 00:13:16.590 --> 00:13:19.500 align:middle line:84% it might be too idealistic and that it's all 00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:23.240 align:middle line:90% right to shoot after as a goal. 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:24.050 align:middle line:90% Yeah, that's good. 00:13:24.050 --> 00:13:27.320 align:middle line:84% I think that's a good way to think about it. 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:31.330 align:middle line:84% As to whether or not all the engineers buy into it, 00:13:31.330 --> 00:13:36.330 align:middle line:84% well, the question is, what is their decision-making method? 00:13:36.330 --> 00:13:42.560 align:middle line:84% I don't think that they use a plebiscite, where you go out 00:13:42.560 --> 00:13:45.800 align:middle line:84% and take the majority of everybody. 00:13:45.800 --> 00:13:46.880 align:middle line:90% No, they get a committee. 00:13:46.880 --> 00:13:49.730 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:13:49.730 --> 00:13:53.698 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's just that when you're a college engineering 00:13:53.698 --> 00:13:57.418 align:middle line:90% student, no one ever-- 00:13:57.418 --> 00:13:59.210 align:middle line:84% at the two universities that I've been at-- 00:13:59.210 --> 00:14:00.960 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.778 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: No one says, [INAUDIBLE] engineers. 00:14:03.778 --> 00:14:04.570 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:14:04.570 --> 00:14:06.990 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Engineering has [INAUDIBLE].. 00:14:06.990 --> 00:14:08.684 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:14:08.684 --> 00:14:11.350 align:middle line:84% And you're expected to [INAUDIBLE].. 00:14:11.350 --> 00:14:12.760 align:middle line:90% Now, I wish they would do that. 00:14:12.760 --> 00:14:13.120 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:14.410 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I wish that we would talk a lot more-- 00:14:14.410 --> 00:14:15.118 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:14:15.118 --> 00:14:18.349 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] engineering [INAUDIBLE].. 00:14:18.349 --> 00:14:23.910 align:middle line:84% So anyway, I would be interested to know 00:14:23.910 --> 00:14:29.510 align:middle line:84% when professional engineers adopt this ideal 00:14:29.510 --> 00:14:31.644 align:middle line:90% about his profession. 00:14:31.644 --> 00:14:33.588 align:middle line:84% I don't know that most people who 00:14:33.588 --> 00:14:36.504 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE] when I was in college. 00:14:36.504 --> 00:14:38.950 align:middle line:84% Maybe they have now, [INAUDIBLE].. 00:14:38.950 --> 00:14:41.450 align:middle line:90% I wonder what [INAUDIBLE]. 00:14:41.450 --> 00:14:42.950 align:middle line:90% [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:14:42.950 --> 00:14:47.860 align:middle line:84% Or is it-- I mean, for the people who wrote this happened. 00:14:47.860 --> 00:14:50.530 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, there's another way to think about it. 00:14:50.530 --> 00:14:52.075 align:middle line:90% They've got it published. 00:14:52.075 --> 00:14:54.325 align:middle line:84% And if you don't like it, you don't have to join NSPE. 00:14:54.325 --> 00:14:56.165 align:middle line:84% Now, that's another way to think about it. 00:14:56.165 --> 00:14:57.790 align:middle line:84% It doesn't mean that you agree with it. 00:14:57.790 --> 00:14:59.650 align:middle line:84% But if you still want to join NSPE, 00:14:59.650 --> 00:15:03.640 align:middle line:84% you have to take responsibility for that statement some way 00:15:03.640 --> 00:15:04.430 align:middle line:90% or another. 00:15:04.430 --> 00:15:06.430 align:middle line:84% You did it with your eyes open-- it's published. 00:15:06.430 --> 00:15:08.410 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It's a really demanding statement-- 00:15:08.410 --> 00:15:09.160 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:15:09.160 --> 00:15:13.930 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think, to say that our [INAUDIBLE] are 00:15:13.930 --> 00:15:18.801 align:middle line:84% honesty, impartiality, fairness, and equity [INAUDIBLE].. 00:15:18.801 --> 00:15:22.301 align:middle line:84% Those are-- none of us ever live to all those things. 00:15:22.301 --> 00:15:24.130 align:middle line:90% I mean, humans fail. 00:15:24.130 --> 00:15:26.090 align:middle line:90% So-- 00:15:26.090 --> 00:15:29.240 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, the price you pay for that-- 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:30.615 align:middle line:84% or not "the" price, but "a" price 00:15:30.615 --> 00:15:32.532 align:middle line:84% that you pay for that-- is if you go to court, 00:15:32.532 --> 00:15:34.835 align:middle line:84% the judge is going to take that position literally. 00:15:34.835 --> 00:15:37.572 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:15:37.572 --> 00:15:38.072 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:15:38.072 --> 00:15:38.572 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:15:38.572 --> 00:15:40.865 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 00:15:40.865 --> 00:15:42.990 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: The judge is going to say, here it is. 00:15:42.990 --> 00:15:43.980 align:middle line:90% It's published. 00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:45.450 align:middle line:90% I got a copy of it. 00:15:45.450 --> 00:15:47.310 align:middle line:90% Everybody's got a copy of it. 00:15:47.310 --> 00:15:50.250 align:middle line:84% Over here, I see where your application you 00:15:50.250 --> 00:15:52.200 align:middle line:90% asked to be a member. 00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:55.110 align:middle line:84% Nobody came down and said, you've got to be one or else 00:15:55.110 --> 00:15:56.130 align:middle line:90% we'll fire you. 00:15:56.130 --> 00:15:57.510 align:middle line:90% Nobody said that. 00:15:57.510 --> 00:16:01.080 align:middle line:84% You've paid your dues every year for the last 10 years. 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:05.220 align:middle line:84% You had time to change your mind after you got experience. 00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:06.993 align:middle line:84% But no, you kept your mouth shut. 00:16:06.993 --> 00:16:08.160 align:middle line:90% You've got to pay the price. 00:16:08.160 --> 00:16:10.600 align:middle line:90% You've got to live up to that. 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:14.318 align:middle line:84% So that's another way to think about this whole thing. 00:16:14.318 --> 00:16:15.943 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: This is something that people 00:16:15.943 --> 00:16:18.010 align:middle line:90% can decide to subscribe to. 00:16:18.010 --> 00:16:21.410 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yeah, they decide to subscribe to it. 00:16:21.410 --> 00:16:23.860 align:middle line:84% And so, therefore, if they come before, 00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:30.980 align:middle line:84% let's say, a community group or a high school, a PTA, 00:16:30.980 --> 00:16:33.140 align:middle line:84% and they say, well, what do you stand for? 00:16:33.140 --> 00:16:34.520 align:middle line:90% What is engineering? 00:16:34.520 --> 00:16:37.760 align:middle line:84% Then you look like a liar if you don't say something 00:16:37.760 --> 00:16:40.910 align:middle line:90% like this, because you belong. 00:16:40.910 --> 00:16:42.300 align:middle line:90% You asked to belong-- 00:16:42.300 --> 00:16:45.030 align:middle line:84% free country, you don't have to belong. 00:16:45.030 --> 00:16:45.530 align:middle line:90% All right. 00:16:45.530 --> 00:16:48.200 align:middle line:90% So there is the goal. 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:53.990 align:middle line:84% Now, the fundamental canons are more or less-- 00:16:53.990 --> 00:16:56.610 align:middle line:90% 00:16:56.610 --> 00:17:02.510 align:middle line:84% the preamble is the end, and the fundamental canons 00:17:02.510 --> 00:17:06.380 align:middle line:84% are the means laid out in general terms. 00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:08.730 align:middle line:90% And we get specifics later. 00:17:08.730 --> 00:17:16.990 align:middle line:84% And the idea with the specifics is that when we review the code 00:17:16.990 --> 00:17:20.440 align:middle line:84% and decide to make changes or make additions, 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:23.670 align:middle line:84% if we've done things right the preamble 00:17:23.670 --> 00:17:25.900 align:middle line:84% and the fundamental canons remain the same. 00:17:25.900 --> 00:17:28.500 align:middle line:90% We only change the rest of it-- 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:29.392 align:middle line:90% the details. 00:17:29.392 --> 00:17:30.850 align:middle line:84% In other words, there are something 00:17:30.850 --> 00:17:34.650 align:middle line:84% that's about our organization, one would say, 00:17:34.650 --> 00:17:40.050 align:middle line:84% who is a member, that has lasting value. 00:17:40.050 --> 00:17:43.110 align:middle line:84% And the preamble and the fundamental canons, 00:17:43.110 --> 00:17:45.780 align:middle line:84% if you're doing things right, have lasting value. 00:17:45.780 --> 00:17:51.610 align:middle line:84% And the details about how you carry it out 00:17:51.610 --> 00:17:53.440 align:middle line:90% may change from time to time. 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:55.510 align:middle line:84% And another way to think about it 00:17:55.510 --> 00:18:01.180 align:middle line:84% is that the fundamental canons lay down your strategy, 00:18:01.180 --> 00:18:06.550 align:middle line:84% and the rules of practice and the last part are your tactics. 00:18:06.550 --> 00:18:10.150 align:middle line:90% 00:18:10.150 --> 00:18:11.140 align:middle line:90% It all fits, right? 00:18:11.140 --> 00:18:16.110 align:middle line:90% 00:18:16.110 --> 00:18:19.152 align:middle line:84% Remember the basketball metaphor? 00:18:19.152 --> 00:18:20.360 align:middle line:90% Did we do that in this class? 00:18:20.360 --> 00:18:21.600 align:middle line:90% Yeah, we did it. 00:18:21.600 --> 00:18:23.620 align:middle line:90% The big guys can go for-- 00:18:23.620 --> 00:18:24.880 align:middle line:90% yeah. 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:30.850 align:middle line:84% So the strategy for achieving this goal 00:18:30.850 --> 00:18:35.140 align:middle line:84% is laid down in your six fundamental canons, 00:18:35.140 --> 00:18:37.600 align:middle line:84% and your tactics are laid down in the rest of it. 00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:40.190 align:middle line:90% 00:18:40.190 --> 00:18:43.168 align:middle line:84% Now, let's go through these canons. 00:18:43.168 --> 00:18:44.210 align:middle line:90% There's only six of them. 00:18:44.210 --> 00:18:45.585 align:middle line:84% Let's go through them one by one. 00:18:45.585 --> 00:18:49.760 align:middle line:84% Because as you said, we're going to find them elsewhere. 00:18:49.760 --> 00:18:51.822 align:middle line:90% What's the first one say? 00:18:51.822 --> 00:18:55.735 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Engineers [INAUDIBLE] professional [INAUDIBLE] 00:18:55.735 --> 00:18:58.622 align:middle line:84% hold paramount to the safety [INAUDIBLE].. 00:18:58.622 --> 00:19:00.580 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Now, whatever you do in this life, 00:19:00.580 --> 00:19:03.550 align:middle line:84% put an asterisk beside that statement. 00:19:03.550 --> 00:19:07.810 align:middle line:84% Because that is the fundamental point 00:19:07.810 --> 00:19:15.160 align:middle line:84% of controversy over engineering ethics in the 20th century. 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:16.870 align:middle line:90% It is number one. 00:19:16.870 --> 00:19:21.910 align:middle line:84% I do not stand alone when using that superlative. 00:19:21.910 --> 00:19:26.790 align:middle line:84% It is the most debated, highest debated, issue, 00:19:26.790 --> 00:19:31.530 align:middle line:84% and the NSPE was the first one to come out early and say 00:19:31.530 --> 00:19:33.990 align:middle line:84% that responsibility for the public 00:19:33.990 --> 00:19:36.690 align:middle line:84% is more important than responsibility 00:19:36.690 --> 00:19:38.400 align:middle line:90% for the client and the employer. 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:40.290 align:middle line:84% They were the first to jump out and say that. 00:19:40.290 --> 00:19:49.470 align:middle line:84% And you can see that if an organization is controlled 00:19:49.470 --> 00:19:54.310 align:middle line:84% by managers, they were going to have 00:19:54.310 --> 00:19:58.220 align:middle line:90% problems with that statement. 00:19:58.220 --> 00:20:02.570 align:middle line:84% And a typical response from a management point of view 00:20:02.570 --> 00:20:07.935 align:middle line:84% is that there are competing interests that an engineer has 00:20:07.935 --> 00:20:08.435 align:middle line:90% to satisfy. 00:20:08.435 --> 00:20:11.070 align:middle line:90% 00:20:11.070 --> 00:20:13.145 align:middle line:84% One is the public, one is the client, 00:20:13.145 --> 00:20:14.520 align:middle line:84% and the other one's the employee. 00:20:14.520 --> 00:20:18.420 align:middle line:90% 00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:22.350 align:middle line:84% And NSPE comes right out and uses this word paramount. 00:20:22.350 --> 00:20:25.270 align:middle line:90% 00:20:25.270 --> 00:20:27.100 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:20:27.100 --> 00:20:29.770 align:middle line:84% And by the way, Aarne Vesilind's last book-- 00:20:29.770 --> 00:20:33.070 align:middle line:84% latest-- he's got a new one I just heard. 00:20:33.070 --> 00:20:35.530 align:middle line:84% But let's say it this way, his latest book 00:20:35.530 --> 00:20:38.246 align:middle line:90% is entitled Hold Paramount. 00:20:38.246 --> 00:20:45.690 align:middle line:90% 00:20:45.690 --> 00:20:48.480 align:middle line:84% So that means that now you have what 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.140 align:middle line:84% is called a super principle, that principle, number one, 00:20:52.140 --> 00:20:54.345 align:middle line:84% is more overriding over the next five. 00:20:54.345 --> 00:20:58.090 align:middle line:90% 00:20:58.090 --> 00:21:04.480 align:middle line:84% And certainly the one I was in with the AAES, when 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:06.850 align:middle line:84% I was in one with the AAES, I was very much aware 00:21:06.850 --> 00:21:08.770 align:middle line:84% of what the other ones were doing, 00:21:08.770 --> 00:21:11.200 align:middle line:84% because we would call each other-- all 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:12.610 align:middle line:90% of that kind of stuff. 00:21:12.610 --> 00:21:15.460 align:middle line:84% I had to go out and give all of these speeches 00:21:15.460 --> 00:21:19.500 align:middle line:90% on behalf of my committee. 00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:24.100 align:middle line:90% And we all had the same problem. 00:21:24.100 --> 00:21:30.125 align:middle line:84% And we worked, the AAES, when we get to it-- 00:21:30.125 --> 00:21:32.250 align:middle line:84% I just have a burning issue to say this right now-- 00:21:32.250 --> 00:21:37.320 align:middle line:84% we worked on that the thing for must 00:21:37.320 --> 00:21:40.620 align:middle line:90% have been about five years. 00:21:40.620 --> 00:21:46.140 align:middle line:84% And I was on the committee the last maybe three years of it, 00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:50.910 align:middle line:84% and I was chair of it the last two years of it. 00:21:50.910 --> 00:21:53.880 align:middle line:84% And we did not get a code of ethics 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:58.140 align:middle line:84% until we passed this paramount rule. 00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:01.680 align:middle line:90% And then we had one. 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.518 align:middle line:84% The committee was not willing to submit anything-- 00:22:04.518 --> 00:22:06.270 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]? 00:22:06.270 --> 00:22:08.550 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, until we resolved the issue 00:22:08.550 --> 00:22:10.270 align:middle line:90% among ourselves. 00:22:10.270 --> 00:22:11.270 align:middle line:90% It was fought that hard. 00:22:11.270 --> 00:22:15.120 align:middle line:90% 00:22:15.120 --> 00:22:16.793 align:middle line:90% And I'll tell you what happened. 00:22:16.793 --> 00:22:18.210 align:middle line:84% I'll tell you what happened there. 00:22:18.210 --> 00:22:20.550 align:middle line:90% This is open, I'll call it that. 00:22:20.550 --> 00:22:25.160 align:middle line:84% There was a guy who was a manager named Bill Middleton. 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:26.580 align:middle line:90% He was on the committee. 00:22:26.580 --> 00:22:30.960 align:middle line:84% And he was a very thoughtful person, 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:36.420 align:middle line:84% and he was very strong on the side of balancing-- 00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:39.330 align:middle line:84% that's the term-- balancing competing interests 00:22:39.330 --> 00:22:41.250 align:middle line:90% for a long time. 00:22:41.250 --> 00:22:43.560 align:middle line:84% And then, I don't know who said-- it wasn't me-- 00:22:43.560 --> 00:22:46.710 align:middle line:84% but somebody said something in there that worked on his heart. 00:22:46.710 --> 00:22:48.750 align:middle line:90% I don't know what it was. 00:22:48.750 --> 00:22:55.110 align:middle line:84% But he got on the train going back home to Philadelphia 00:22:55.110 --> 00:22:56.940 align:middle line:84% and he wrote up what he thought should 00:22:56.940 --> 00:22:59.730 align:middle line:90% be our fundamental canons. 00:22:59.730 --> 00:23:03.000 align:middle line:84% And he put a paramountcy rule in there. 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:04.740 align:middle line:84% I don't think he used the word paramount, 00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:07.440 align:middle line:90% but he made it more paramount. 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.110 align:middle line:84% And he sent it back to me, and said 00:23:10.110 --> 00:23:11.970 align:middle line:90% got it to him on the train. 00:23:11.970 --> 00:23:15.997 align:middle line:84% When I got it, I put it in the code. 00:23:15.997 --> 00:23:18.330 align:middle line:84% And I called the president of the organization and said, 00:23:18.330 --> 00:23:19.205 align:middle line:90% we finished the code. 00:23:19.205 --> 00:23:21.990 align:middle line:90% 00:23:21.990 --> 00:23:26.447 align:middle line:84% I said, I have to tell you, I don't have the vote in writing. 00:23:26.447 --> 00:23:28.780 align:middle line:84% He said, we've been waiting on this thing for six years. 00:23:28.780 --> 00:23:30.360 align:middle line:84% He said, will you take responsibility for it? 00:23:30.360 --> 00:23:30.985 align:middle line:90% I said, I will. 00:23:30.985 --> 00:23:32.640 align:middle line:84% I sent it up there and we had it. 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.460 align:middle line:84% Nobody objected once it went in, because it came out 00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:38.160 align:middle line:90% of this man's heart. 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:40.160 align:middle line:84% He found some correlation between what 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:41.910 align:middle line:84% was in his unconscious and his conscience. 00:23:41.910 --> 00:23:45.450 align:middle line:84% And I said, when that thing comes out, 00:23:45.450 --> 00:23:48.725 align:middle line:84% everybody's going to buy it or a person who doesn't buy it 00:23:48.725 --> 00:23:50.100 align:middle line:84% is not going to fight against it. 00:23:50.100 --> 00:23:51.876 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So was the argument for not 00:23:51.876 --> 00:23:54.220 align:middle line:84% having a [INAUDIBLE] that you don't 00:23:54.220 --> 00:23:55.780 align:middle line:90% balance competing interests? 00:23:55.780 --> 00:23:56.886 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:23:56.886 --> 00:23:58.430 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So that was the basic idea. 00:23:58.430 --> 00:23:59.600 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:00.620 align:middle line:90% And it hurts business. 00:24:00.620 --> 00:24:03.770 align:middle line:90% 00:24:03.770 --> 00:24:08.450 align:middle line:90% And people argue. 00:24:08.450 --> 00:24:09.830 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:24:09.830 --> 00:24:16.330 align:middle line:84% And then you get into this whole thing about gray areas 00:24:16.330 --> 00:24:18.370 align:middle line:90% and complexity. 00:24:18.370 --> 00:24:21.790 align:middle line:84% And most of the issues weren't great and they weren't complex. 00:24:21.790 --> 00:24:30.030 align:middle line:84% But they really wanted a profession 00:24:30.030 --> 00:24:38.100 align:middle line:84% in which every member felt a deep sense of loyalty 00:24:38.100 --> 00:24:40.950 align:middle line:84% to whoever was putting the paycheck on the table. 00:24:40.950 --> 00:24:45.390 align:middle line:90% 00:24:45.390 --> 00:24:45.890 align:middle line:90% And if-- 00:24:45.890 --> 00:24:47.690 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: People who were advocating from not having 00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:49.000 align:middle line:90% paramountcy clause wanted that. 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:50.010 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:24:50.010 --> 00:24:50.980 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:24:50.980 --> 00:24:53.860 align:middle line:84% Thought that you could not-- that the profession 00:24:53.860 --> 00:24:57.940 align:middle line:84% would break down because people would not be loyal to the ones 00:24:57.940 --> 00:25:01.075 align:middle line:90% they worked for. 00:25:01.075 --> 00:25:05.138 align:middle line:84% They saw themself as serving the public, but not necessarily. 00:25:05.138 --> 00:25:05.930 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:25:05.930 --> 00:25:07.880 align:middle line:84% There was this question as to whether or not 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:10.297 align:middle line:84% should serve the public, or whether it was somebody else's 00:25:10.297 --> 00:25:13.580 align:middle line:84% problem to serve the public, or whether you just 00:25:13.580 --> 00:25:16.250 align:middle line:84% needed to "balance," quote, unquote, these competing 00:25:16.250 --> 00:25:17.090 align:middle line:90% interests. 00:25:17.090 --> 00:25:20.810 align:middle line:84% And my position on there when it came to the word balance 00:25:20.810 --> 00:25:24.410 align:middle line:84% is you've got to have a rule for what establishes a balance. 00:25:24.410 --> 00:25:25.442 align:middle line:90% And what is that rule? 00:25:25.442 --> 00:25:27.650 align:middle line:84% Nobody could give me the rule, because that goes back 00:25:27.650 --> 00:25:29.720 align:middle line:90% to a paramountcy. 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.340 align:middle line:90% Something's got to be paramount. 00:25:32.340 --> 00:25:34.820 align:middle line:84% So if you use that word rule, what do you mean by balance? 00:25:34.820 --> 00:25:35.945 align:middle line:90% What constitutes a balance? 00:25:35.945 --> 00:25:38.750 align:middle line:90% 00:25:38.750 --> 00:25:41.540 align:middle line:84% Well, that confuse the issue for everybody enough for us 00:25:41.540 --> 00:25:44.780 align:middle line:84% to start thinking about the paramountcy rule. 00:25:44.780 --> 00:25:48.140 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: While we're talking about the paramountcy clause, 00:25:48.140 --> 00:25:53.240 align:middle line:84% can we look at the alternative that the IEEE has? 00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:54.912 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:25:54.912 --> 00:25:56.870 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because they don't use the paramount. 00:25:56.870 --> 00:25:57.662 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:25:57.662 --> 00:26:00.020 align:middle line:90% 00:26:00.020 --> 00:26:04.070 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Their first canon says to accept responsibility 00:26:04.070 --> 00:26:08.120 align:middle line:84% in making engineering decisions consistent with the safety, 00:26:08.120 --> 00:26:09.946 align:middle line:84% health, and welfare of the public, 00:26:09.946 --> 00:26:12.805 align:middle line:84% and to disclose promptly factors that might endanger 00:26:12.805 --> 00:26:14.730 align:middle line:90% the public and the environment. 00:26:14.730 --> 00:26:15.920 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:20.240 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So is that an alternative that you all 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:25.143 align:middle line:84% were considering at AAES, something like that? 00:26:25.143 --> 00:26:25.810 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: No. 00:26:25.810 --> 00:26:28.456 align:middle line:90% 00:26:28.456 --> 00:26:31.780 align:middle line:84% The IEEE, well, let's say a few things about the IEEE. 00:26:31.780 --> 00:26:35.980 align:middle line:84% First of all, what they had to say back in those days 00:26:35.980 --> 00:26:39.490 align:middle line:84% was very important, because they were the largest engineering 00:26:39.490 --> 00:26:41.470 align:middle line:90% professional organization. 00:26:41.470 --> 00:26:44.680 align:middle line:84% And secondly, they were the largest 00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:49.120 align:middle line:84% partly because in those days the electrical engineering 00:26:49.120 --> 00:26:51.538 align:middle line:84% departments in colleges were the largest. 00:26:51.538 --> 00:26:53.830 align:middle line:84% Most of the students were in, most of the jobs were in, 00:26:53.830 --> 00:26:54.970 align:middle line:90% electrical engineering. 00:26:54.970 --> 00:26:58.570 align:middle line:84% Now, that's shifted to computer science I believe-- 00:26:58.570 --> 00:27:01.240 align:middle line:84% computer engineering and computer science. 00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:03.370 align:middle line:84% But electrical was the biggest one. 00:27:03.370 --> 00:27:11.145 align:middle line:84% And lastly, IEEE was an international organization. 00:27:11.145 --> 00:27:12.480 align:middle line:90% It wasn't the Americans. 00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:14.370 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: That's true. 00:27:14.370 --> 00:27:16.890 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So they had to be concerned 00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:18.430 align:middle line:90% about international concerns. 00:27:18.430 --> 00:27:22.620 align:middle line:90% 00:27:22.620 --> 00:27:28.780 align:middle line:84% And all of that weighed in with them. 00:27:28.780 --> 00:27:34.410 align:middle line:84% So it looked for awhile as though IEEE was going to-- 00:27:34.410 --> 00:27:37.260 align:middle line:84% control is not the right word, dominate is the right word-- 00:27:37.260 --> 00:27:38.535 align:middle line:90% dominate everybody else. 00:27:38.535 --> 00:27:41.390 align:middle line:90% 00:27:41.390 --> 00:27:43.940 align:middle line:90% And it didn't work. 00:27:43.940 --> 00:27:48.670 align:middle line:84% So IEEE has stood by what they wrote all of these years, 00:27:48.670 --> 00:27:53.220 align:middle line:84% and they are just separate from the rest. 00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:54.970 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yeah, it just seems like there's 00:27:54.970 --> 00:27:59.210 align:middle line:84% so much more gray area for what their first canon is. 00:27:59.210 --> 00:28:02.030 align:middle line:84% To accept responsibility in make decisions 00:28:02.030 --> 00:28:05.300 align:middle line:84% consistent with the public safety 00:28:05.300 --> 00:28:09.628 align:middle line:84% us so different than saying, hold paramount. 00:28:09.628 --> 00:28:10.420 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:28:10.420 --> 00:28:13.047 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: What exactly does it mean to accept responsibility? 00:28:13.047 --> 00:28:15.130 align:middle line:84% Does that mean you could still make a bad decision 00:28:15.130 --> 00:28:18.610 align:middle line:84% and accept responsibility for it? 00:28:18.610 --> 00:28:20.900 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:28:20.900 --> 00:28:23.710 align:middle line:84% Well, there's one thing that is good about it 00:28:23.710 --> 00:28:26.395 align:middle line:90% that I take a lesson from. 00:28:26.395 --> 00:28:29.200 align:middle line:90% 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:31.660 align:middle line:84% And that is that it presupposes that you 00:28:31.660 --> 00:28:38.500 align:middle line:84% can do engineering and not have to sacrifice your employer 00:28:38.500 --> 00:28:41.020 align:middle line:84% or client to do the right thing-- that they're always 00:28:41.020 --> 00:28:41.800 align:middle line:90% compatible. 00:28:41.800 --> 00:28:45.130 align:middle line:90% 00:28:45.130 --> 00:28:50.410 align:middle line:84% Now, the lesson that I take from that 00:28:50.410 --> 00:28:54.100 align:middle line:84% is that, well, I don't believe that they're always compatible. 00:28:54.100 --> 00:28:57.160 align:middle line:84% But what I do believe is that competency 00:28:57.160 --> 00:28:58.405 align:middle line:90% is almost always compatible. 00:28:58.405 --> 00:29:00.280 align:middle line:84% I mean, if you're really good at what you do, 00:29:00.280 --> 00:29:04.730 align:middle line:84% you should be able to do it and do the right thing. 00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:07.040 align:middle line:84% Now, what I'm really after in that argument, 00:29:07.040 --> 00:29:11.660 align:middle line:84% to be quite honest and specific about it, 00:29:11.660 --> 00:29:14.060 align:middle line:84% is I am less concerned as to whether or not 00:29:14.060 --> 00:29:18.230 align:middle line:84% you can do both than I am concerned 00:29:18.230 --> 00:29:21.800 align:middle line:84% that to do one or the other is definitely incompetent. 00:29:21.800 --> 00:29:28.040 align:middle line:84% It builds into the culture that you're 00:29:28.040 --> 00:29:32.390 align:middle line:84% real smart if you can kill all of the enemy, and their babies, 00:29:32.390 --> 00:29:36.170 align:middle line:84% and their dogs, and everything, and say that, well, I 00:29:36.170 --> 00:29:37.982 align:middle line:90% had to do it. 00:29:37.982 --> 00:29:39.440 align:middle line:84% Confidently you say, well, I'm just 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:42.380 align:middle line:84% going to kill the soldiers, the ones that are armed. 00:29:42.380 --> 00:29:45.470 align:middle line:84% And not we're not going to hit the civilians. 00:29:45.470 --> 00:29:48.110 align:middle line:84% And I will be as effective as you are 00:29:48.110 --> 00:29:50.090 align:middle line:90% with that murder of everybody. 00:29:50.090 --> 00:29:53.210 align:middle line:90% So it builds in a culture-- 00:29:53.210 --> 00:29:55.250 align:middle line:90% going back to culture again-- 00:29:55.250 --> 00:29:56.555 align:middle line:90% what I call a bad culture. 00:29:56.555 --> 00:30:00.780 align:middle line:90% 00:30:00.780 --> 00:30:03.500 align:middle line:84% So I think that we have the lay of the land. 00:30:03.500 --> 00:30:07.310 align:middle line:84% The IEEE is really trying to say something 00:30:07.310 --> 00:30:09.080 align:middle line:84% that I don't think everybody can believe, 00:30:09.080 --> 00:30:16.160 align:middle line:84% and that is that you can always do these things the right way. 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:19.940 align:middle line:90% I think that it's the right-- 00:30:19.940 --> 00:30:22.600 align:middle line:84% in other words, here's what I would say-- now, emphasize 00:30:22.600 --> 00:30:24.910 align:middle line:90% I'm taking this stand. 00:30:24.910 --> 00:30:29.290 align:middle line:84% Now, you can take your stance, but I can justify my stance. 00:30:29.290 --> 00:30:31.930 align:middle line:84% I would take that statement and put it 00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:37.920 align:middle line:84% in the preamble as an ideal that we shoot for. 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:47.820 align:middle line:90% 00:30:47.820 --> 00:30:51.750 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: The whole canon are the idea that it is always 00:30:51.750 --> 00:30:53.790 align:middle line:90% possible to have done-- 00:30:53.790 --> 00:30:55.200 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: The whole idea. 00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:57.750 align:middle line:84% I would take the canon out, I would put it up there 00:30:57.750 --> 00:30:59.970 align:middle line:84% as a first draft, and then I'd work on it until it 00:30:59.970 --> 00:31:01.260 align:middle line:90% all came out and made sense. 00:31:01.260 --> 00:31:06.250 align:middle line:90% 00:31:06.250 --> 00:31:07.670 align:middle line:90% OK. 00:31:07.670 --> 00:31:10.630 align:middle line:90% Can we go back to NSPE? 00:31:10.630 --> 00:31:11.740 align:middle line:90% Hi, Tony. 00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:14.200 align:middle line:90% We're doing the NSPE code. 00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:16.900 align:middle line:90% 00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:18.805 align:middle line:90% What's the second canon? 00:31:18.805 --> 00:31:19.930 align:middle line:90% Are we done with the first? 00:31:19.930 --> 00:31:26.520 align:middle line:90% 00:31:26.520 --> 00:31:28.280 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Actually, I have a question. 00:31:28.280 --> 00:31:32.080 align:middle line:84% We've talked about or read about what welfare means. 00:31:32.080 --> 00:31:32.920 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:38.440 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But how do the people who subscribe to this code 00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:39.570 align:middle line:90% of ethics-- 00:31:39.570 --> 00:31:42.150 align:middle line:84% how are they sure that they know what welfare means? 00:31:42.150 --> 00:31:44.190 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: That was a hotly debated word. 00:31:44.190 --> 00:31:45.030 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:31:45.030 --> 00:31:46.405 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: That's a word we really 00:31:46.405 --> 00:31:49.410 align:middle line:84% only use in normal conversation to talk 00:31:49.410 --> 00:31:51.330 align:middle line:90% about government programs. 00:31:51.330 --> 00:31:53.160 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:55.462 align:middle line:90% Well, that was-- 00:31:55.462 --> 00:32:08.420 align:middle line:84% I was in a meeting when some engineers, three of them 00:32:08.420 --> 00:32:13.010 align:middle line:84% from the same state, got up and walked out of the meeting. 00:32:13.010 --> 00:32:14.990 align:middle line:84% Said if you can't find a substitute 00:32:14.990 --> 00:32:18.145 align:middle line:84% for that weird welfare, we're not going to even participate. 00:32:18.145 --> 00:32:19.020 align:middle line:90% Don't count us in it. 00:32:19.020 --> 00:32:20.895 align:middle line:84% They got up and walked out-- never came back. 00:32:20.895 --> 00:32:23.015 align:middle line:90% 00:32:23.015 --> 00:32:27.250 align:middle line:84% Because it had too many political connotations. 00:32:27.250 --> 00:32:36.620 align:middle line:84% Now, the political connotation was that the government is-- 00:32:36.620 --> 00:32:38.330 align:middle line:84% I mean, this was the connotation that 00:32:38.330 --> 00:32:45.140 align:middle line:84% was applied to the word welfare in these discussions. 00:32:45.140 --> 00:32:47.750 align:middle line:84% The connotation was that the government 00:32:47.750 --> 00:32:51.440 align:middle line:84% is giving money to somebody not to work, 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:55.093 align:middle line:84% and they can live just as well as I am, and I am working. 00:32:55.093 --> 00:32:55.760 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:32:55.760 --> 00:32:58.040 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Now, that was the nightmare 00:32:58.040 --> 00:33:04.520 align:middle line:84% in the American psyche that was built 00:33:04.520 --> 00:33:12.770 align:middle line:84% into the movements in the middle and late '60s. 00:33:12.770 --> 00:33:15.260 align:middle line:84% And the movement said that welfare 00:33:15.260 --> 00:33:24.140 align:middle line:84% was for people who either did not get their civil rights 00:33:24.140 --> 00:33:28.490 align:middle line:84% and therefore needed subsistence, 00:33:28.490 --> 00:33:34.160 align:middle line:84% or that you really don't want to have a country wherein people 00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:36.020 align:middle line:84% are suffering and have every reason 00:33:36.020 --> 00:33:37.460 align:middle line:90% to rise up against the country. 00:33:37.460 --> 00:33:40.340 align:middle line:90% 00:33:40.340 --> 00:33:43.880 align:middle line:84% I mean, no matter what your failure in life may be, 00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:46.760 align:middle line:84% you don't want your child to starve. 00:33:46.760 --> 00:33:48.710 align:middle line:84% And you will become a communist-- 00:33:48.710 --> 00:33:51.560 align:middle line:90% all of these other things. 00:33:51.560 --> 00:33:59.090 align:middle line:84% So Branch Davidian, all of these groups that break out, 00:33:59.090 --> 00:34:02.840 align:middle line:84% are people who are sore about failure. 00:34:02.840 --> 00:34:05.650 align:middle line:84% And you don't want a country, particularly one-- 00:34:05.650 --> 00:34:07.910 align:middle line:90% that's what the argument went-- 00:34:07.910 --> 00:34:13.130 align:middle line:84% as profitable and as rich as ours to have that problem. 00:34:13.130 --> 00:34:15.440 align:middle line:84% So those were the two sides of it. 00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:21.440 align:middle line:84% When they got it into these debates, frankly, 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:25.820 align:middle line:84% I'll tell you, I just don't know why 00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:29.360 align:middle line:84% the people who use the word welfare 00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:32.900 align:middle line:84% were not going to yield on that point. 00:34:32.900 --> 00:34:34.688 align:middle line:90% I tried some other words. 00:34:34.688 --> 00:34:35.480 align:middle line:90% I couldn't find it. 00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:39.940 align:middle line:84% I didn't see where welfare was a necessary word. 00:34:39.940 --> 00:34:41.780 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And it is a loaded word. 00:34:41.780 --> 00:34:43.150 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: It was loaded. 00:34:43.150 --> 00:34:45.469 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: You can say, let's just use the dictionary 00:34:45.469 --> 00:34:47.142 align:middle line:90% denotation of welfare-- 00:34:47.142 --> 00:34:47.850 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:34:47.850 --> 00:34:49.639 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Which is like, well being. 00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:50.407 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:34:50.407 --> 00:34:51.449 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: More than that. 00:34:51.449 --> 00:34:54.949 align:middle line:84% But the fact of the matter is, most people 00:34:54.949 --> 00:34:58.990 align:middle line:84% think of the connotation of [INAUDIBLE].. 00:34:58.990 --> 00:35:00.750 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And the people who were 00:35:00.750 --> 00:35:03.120 align:middle line:84% dissatisfied with it at the time are still dissatisfied. 00:35:03.120 --> 00:35:05.670 align:middle line:90% They don't like that word. 00:35:05.670 --> 00:35:07.500 align:middle line:84% The good news is, the time has passed 00:35:07.500 --> 00:35:09.450 align:middle line:84% and we've got a whole generation out here, 00:35:09.450 --> 00:35:12.210 align:middle line:84% really doesn't know what that, doesn't feel those-- 00:35:12.210 --> 00:35:14.460 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Doesn't have that negative connotation. 00:35:14.460 --> 00:35:16.418 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: They are happy to say, well, we'll 00:35:16.418 --> 00:35:19.260 align:middle line:90% look in the dictionary, OK. 00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:22.110 align:middle line:84% So the good news is, it no longer seems 00:35:22.110 --> 00:35:24.510 align:middle line:90% to me to make a difference. 00:35:24.510 --> 00:35:25.750 align:middle line:90% But it was loaded. 00:35:25.750 --> 00:35:33.840 align:middle line:84% And like I said, I like the word welfare, 00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:36.792 align:middle line:90% but I could find a substitute. 00:35:36.792 --> 00:35:39.390 align:middle line:84% If that makes you mad, I'll find another one 00:35:39.390 --> 00:35:41.230 align:middle line:90% that means the same thing. 00:35:41.230 --> 00:35:42.870 align:middle line:84% And if that makes you mad, then I 00:35:42.870 --> 00:35:46.050 align:middle line:84% see there's no way for us to come to any conclusion. 00:35:46.050 --> 00:35:49.260 align:middle line:84% But I was willing to find a substitute. 00:35:49.260 --> 00:35:53.200 align:middle line:84% But the people who laid on that word welfare, bang their-- 00:35:53.200 --> 00:35:54.617 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: They just thought it was 00:35:54.617 --> 00:35:55.680 align:middle line:90% the only word that captured it. 00:35:55.680 --> 00:35:56.763 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: That's right. 00:35:56.763 --> 00:35:58.600 align:middle line:90% And they were going to do it. 00:35:58.600 --> 00:36:00.120 align:middle line:84% And it won, if you want to put it 00:36:00.120 --> 00:36:01.412 align:middle line:90% in terms of winning and losing. 00:36:01.412 --> 00:36:03.810 align:middle line:90% 00:36:03.810 --> 00:36:05.820 align:middle line:90% So yeah, that's a good term. 00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:08.895 align:middle line:84% It was a loaded term in those days, loaded. 00:36:08.895 --> 00:36:11.480 align:middle line:90% 00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:13.130 align:middle line:90% But it came out. 00:36:13.130 --> 00:36:14.960 align:middle line:90% OK, where else are we now? 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.660 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: We're on number two now. 00:36:17.660 --> 00:36:19.966 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Somebody read number two. 00:36:19.966 --> 00:36:22.216 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [? Kristen, ?] do you have a longer version? 00:36:22.216 --> 00:36:24.960 align:middle line:84% I have, performed services only in areas of incompetence. 00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:26.840 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: That's what actually-- 00:36:26.840 --> 00:36:29.961 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Now, that was a contested one. 00:36:29.961 --> 00:36:31.294 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah, I was wondering. 00:36:31.294 --> 00:36:33.890 align:middle line:84% That one, I thought a lot about that one also. 00:36:33.890 --> 00:36:34.865 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 00:36:34.865 --> 00:36:37.160 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: That was contested, really? 00:36:37.160 --> 00:36:40.900 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yes, hotly contested. 00:36:40.900 --> 00:36:44.738 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: That you shouldn't constrain engineers to perform 00:36:44.738 --> 00:36:45.780 align:middle line:90% only in their competence? 00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:47.580 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: That's right. 00:36:47.580 --> 00:36:48.420 align:middle line:90% I'll tell you why. 00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:52.110 align:middle line:90% 00:36:52.110 --> 00:36:54.450 align:middle line:84% There was one guy, I can't remember his name 00:36:54.450 --> 00:36:56.790 align:middle line:84% or what organization he represented 00:36:56.790 --> 00:37:00.240 align:middle line:84% because in the AAES, everybody was a representative of one 00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:03.252 align:middle line:90% of the member organizations. 00:37:03.252 --> 00:37:04.710 align:middle line:84% I can't remember what organization. 00:37:04.710 --> 00:37:08.760 align:middle line:84% But he put it very articulately and he fought very hard for it. 00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:10.320 align:middle line:84% Lost in the end, but he fought very-- 00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:14.700 align:middle line:84% His argument was that there are two kinds 00:37:14.700 --> 00:37:19.560 align:middle line:84% of engineering organizations, big ones and little ones. 00:37:19.560 --> 00:37:22.235 align:middle line:84% So if you got a small company out here, and say, 00:37:22.235 --> 00:37:23.610 align:middle line:84% the three of you all get together 00:37:23.610 --> 00:37:26.550 align:middle line:84% and say you're going to get incorporated. 00:37:26.550 --> 00:37:30.150 align:middle line:84% And you wind up hiring 20 people and you're 00:37:30.150 --> 00:37:32.460 align:middle line:90% making good money, all right? 00:37:32.460 --> 00:37:40.740 align:middle line:84% Then something on the job, a fuse busts, and you 00:37:40.740 --> 00:37:42.270 align:middle line:84% have to fix that electrical wiring. 00:37:42.270 --> 00:37:44.070 align:middle line:84% You don't have the money to be going out 00:37:44.070 --> 00:37:47.702 align:middle line:84% to hire an electrical engineer to come in on the spot 00:37:47.702 --> 00:37:49.660 align:middle line:84% because you've got your critical pass schedule, 00:37:49.660 --> 00:37:51.120 align:middle line:84% you've got to finish this job today. 00:37:51.120 --> 00:37:52.920 align:middle line:84% Somebody's got to go to crawl down in there 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:55.570 align:middle line:90% and fix that wire. 00:37:55.570 --> 00:38:00.660 align:middle line:84% So the idea was that requiring engineers 00:38:00.660 --> 00:38:04.200 align:middle line:84% to perform only in the areas of their competence 00:38:04.200 --> 00:38:07.765 align:middle line:84% was going to put the small business engineers out 00:38:07.765 --> 00:38:08.265 align:middle line:90% of business. 00:38:08.265 --> 00:38:12.015 align:middle line:90% 00:38:12.015 --> 00:38:13.140 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Does that happen? 00:38:13.140 --> 00:38:16.367 align:middle line:90% 00:38:16.367 --> 00:38:20.355 align:middle line:84% Or can small businesses find a way around the [INAUDIBLE].. 00:38:20.355 --> 00:38:22.230 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: What happened I think in the end 00:38:22.230 --> 00:38:25.110 align:middle line:84% was the small business just kept doing what they were doing. 00:38:25.110 --> 00:38:30.630 align:middle line:90% And no big cases come up. 00:38:30.630 --> 00:38:32.905 align:middle line:84% And the basic attitude that we talked 00:38:32.905 --> 00:38:34.530 align:middle line:84% about when I was chair of the committee 00:38:34.530 --> 00:38:40.380 align:middle line:84% was that, look, judges and juries 00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:44.520 align:middle line:90% are reasonable at some level. 00:38:44.520 --> 00:38:48.960 align:middle line:84% They're going to know that you're not a concrete foreman 00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:54.120 align:middle line:84% but you wanted to put just enough concrete in here 00:38:54.120 --> 00:38:57.960 align:middle line:84% to put an electrical apparatus that your company makes 00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:59.160 align:middle line:90% on top of. 00:38:59.160 --> 00:39:01.272 align:middle line:90% And nobody came in here on time. 00:39:01.272 --> 00:39:01.980 align:middle line:90% You got to do it. 00:39:01.980 --> 00:39:04.170 align:middle line:84% So somebody said, well, let's go mix the concrete. 00:39:04.170 --> 00:39:07.050 align:middle line:90% I did it for my son's dog house. 00:39:07.050 --> 00:39:08.700 align:middle line:90% And you throw it in there. 00:39:08.700 --> 00:39:13.300 align:middle line:84% Some jury is going to be sympathetic to that. 00:39:13.300 --> 00:39:15.000 align:middle line:84% And just don't let it get out of hand. 00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:19.380 align:middle line:84% Don't have a nuclear device and the product 00:39:19.380 --> 00:39:22.860 align:middle line:84% you make that goes bad and you try to fix it. 00:39:22.860 --> 00:39:24.150 align:middle line:90% Don't go crazy. 00:39:24.150 --> 00:39:26.520 align:middle line:84% So I think that what happened with 00:39:26.520 --> 00:39:29.250 align:middle line:84% that case was that cooler heads prevailed in the end. 00:39:29.250 --> 00:39:35.210 align:middle line:90% 00:39:35.210 --> 00:39:38.420 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I think that resolves some issues 00:39:38.420 --> 00:39:41.966 align:middle line:84% because at first glance, you equate being 00:39:41.966 --> 00:39:43.280 align:middle line:90% competent with being ethical. 00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:44.905 align:middle line:84% But that's not really what it's saying. 00:39:44.905 --> 00:39:47.360 align:middle line:84% It's saying it's unethical to force you to do something 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:48.485 align:middle line:90% that you're not competent-- 00:39:48.485 --> 00:39:50.900 align:middle line:84% Like, it's not unethical to not know how to do something. 00:39:50.900 --> 00:39:51.890 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: No. 00:39:51.890 --> 00:39:53.307 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So maybe that's the idea 00:39:53.307 --> 00:39:55.345 align:middle line:84% that I played with more in my head. 00:39:55.345 --> 00:39:56.720 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: You thought it was bad. 00:39:56.720 --> 00:39:58.137 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: At first glance, I think 00:39:58.137 --> 00:39:59.840 align:middle line:84% we've had a conversation before about, 00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.820 align:middle line:84% I think it was Chernobyl we talked about it. 00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:05.480 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yeah, competency came up in Chernobyl. 00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:08.010 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So yeah, it was an important distinction to make. 00:40:08.010 --> 00:40:09.865 align:middle line:84% And it just made it clear for me that's 00:40:09.865 --> 00:40:11.490 align:middle line:84% what's going to happen, you attempt it, 00:40:11.490 --> 00:40:15.180 align:middle line:84% not necessarily that maybe you're not great at it 00:40:15.180 --> 00:40:16.520 align:middle line:90% and you tried and failed. 00:40:16.520 --> 00:40:18.120 align:middle line:90% Nothing ethically is wrong. 00:40:18.120 --> 00:40:21.312 align:middle line:84% There's just you actually tried and you know 00:40:21.312 --> 00:40:24.220 align:middle line:90% you're not qualified to do it. 00:40:24.220 --> 00:40:26.650 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, that was one of the big issues 00:40:26.650 --> 00:40:29.660 align:middle line:84% that I brought to the table as a person who had studied ethics 00:40:29.660 --> 00:40:30.160 align:middle line:90% formally. 00:40:30.160 --> 00:40:33.880 align:middle line:90% 00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:36.790 align:middle line:84% But engineers had very strong sentiments 00:40:36.790 --> 00:40:41.020 align:middle line:84% that if you didn't know how to solve a certain kind 00:40:41.020 --> 00:40:44.980 align:middle line:90% of problem, you were unethical. 00:40:44.980 --> 00:40:49.310 align:middle line:84% And I tried to tell them, no, you got to separate that out. 00:40:49.310 --> 00:40:52.730 align:middle line:84% And in the, end cooler heads prevailed on that one too. 00:40:52.730 --> 00:40:55.810 align:middle line:84% But there was a basic sentiment among engineers 00:40:55.810 --> 00:41:01.090 align:middle line:84% that if there were certain things you didn't know, 00:41:01.090 --> 00:41:03.190 align:middle line:84% then you shouldn't be practicing. 00:41:03.190 --> 00:41:06.640 align:middle line:90% And it was unethical. 00:41:06.640 --> 00:41:13.130 align:middle line:84% And I'll tell you what made their arguments strong, 00:41:13.130 --> 00:41:15.014 align:middle line:90% if not entirely compelling. 00:41:15.014 --> 00:41:17.920 align:middle line:90% 00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:21.880 align:middle line:84% They would make a metaphor with physicians. 00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:23.620 align:middle line:90% OK, so you're sitting up there. 00:41:23.620 --> 00:41:24.677 align:middle line:90% Your heart is going bad. 00:41:24.677 --> 00:41:25.510 align:middle line:90% You're about to die. 00:41:25.510 --> 00:41:26.780 align:middle line:84% The physician comes in and says, well, 00:41:26.780 --> 00:41:28.150 align:middle line:90% I've never studied the heart. 00:41:28.150 --> 00:41:30.192 align:middle line:84% But I'm going to cut your heart out today anyway. 00:41:30.192 --> 00:41:31.450 align:middle line:90% I mean, part of it-- 00:41:31.450 --> 00:41:36.640 align:middle line:84% Now, there's something unethical and competency tied into that. 00:41:36.640 --> 00:41:39.340 align:middle line:84% And then they make the metaphor back to engineering. 00:41:39.340 --> 00:41:40.870 align:middle line:90% And engineers start thinking. 00:41:40.870 --> 00:41:41.740 align:middle line:90% We have to hold it. 00:41:41.740 --> 00:41:45.300 align:middle line:84% Maybe cooler heads will prevail in these situations. 00:41:45.300 --> 00:41:46.840 align:middle line:90% OK, but that was hot. 00:41:46.840 --> 00:41:47.957 align:middle line:90% That was a hot issue. 00:41:47.957 --> 00:41:50.290 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And if you're under time constraints, like you 00:41:50.290 --> 00:41:51.970 align:middle line:84% were saying, pouring the concrete. 00:41:51.970 --> 00:41:53.080 align:middle line:90% What are you going to do? 00:41:53.080 --> 00:41:53.920 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:56.680 align:middle line:84% And we're not pouring concrete for a column 00:41:56.680 --> 00:42:00.700 align:middle line:84% that's going to sustain 30 stories of stuff on top. 00:42:00.700 --> 00:42:02.470 align:middle line:84% We just stuff a little thing over here. 00:42:02.470 --> 00:42:05.380 align:middle line:84% If it cracks, then we'll pay for it. 00:42:05.380 --> 00:42:09.020 align:middle line:90% 00:42:09.020 --> 00:42:10.670 align:middle line:90% You try to work that-- 00:42:10.670 --> 00:42:13.640 align:middle line:84% Cooler heads prevail in the courtroom sometimes. 00:42:13.640 --> 00:42:15.950 align:middle line:90% Take your chances. 00:42:15.950 --> 00:42:20.510 align:middle line:84% But I think that underneath the surface, remember, 00:42:20.510 --> 00:42:23.420 align:middle line:84% I told you there are certain things operating 00:42:23.420 --> 00:42:27.950 align:middle line:84% underneath the surface of discussion 00:42:27.950 --> 00:42:29.780 align:middle line:90% that nobody would deny. 00:42:29.780 --> 00:42:31.550 align:middle line:84% And sometimes some of it has been written. 00:42:31.550 --> 00:42:36.380 align:middle line:84% One is that engineers always felt and probably 00:42:36.380 --> 00:42:40.512 align:middle line:84% still feel that they are not accepted as professionals 00:42:40.512 --> 00:42:41.720 align:middle line:90% like doctors and lawyers are. 00:42:41.720 --> 00:42:45.330 align:middle line:90% 00:42:45.330 --> 00:42:47.910 align:middle line:84% And they're proud of their profession. 00:42:47.910 --> 00:42:52.800 align:middle line:84% And mainly, not because of the good things 00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:56.440 align:middle line:84% that are here in this preamble, but because actually 00:42:56.440 --> 00:42:58.430 align:middle line:84% what you had said, Miss [INAUDIBLE],, 00:42:58.430 --> 00:42:59.700 align:middle line:90% a couple of classes ago. 00:42:59.700 --> 00:43:03.120 align:middle line:84% And that was, they know what it was like to be in school 00:43:03.120 --> 00:43:06.780 align:middle line:84% and take hard courses when everybody else could not 00:43:06.780 --> 00:43:07.770 align:middle line:90% pass these courses. 00:43:07.770 --> 00:43:10.260 align:middle line:84% And we not only had to pass them but do well in them 00:43:10.260 --> 00:43:11.385 align:middle line:90% in order to get a degree. 00:43:11.385 --> 00:43:14.760 align:middle line:90% 00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:18.360 align:middle line:84% Under the surface in engineering, 00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:25.170 align:middle line:84% there is a little bit of bitterness about all of that. 00:43:25.170 --> 00:43:33.330 align:middle line:84% I know of one case where there was this professor who 00:43:33.330 --> 00:43:36.870 align:middle line:84% had something like 200 or 300 publications, 00:43:36.870 --> 00:43:39.000 align:middle line:90% was editor of three journals. 00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:42.060 align:middle line:84% Actually, the guy who told me he said it was four journals, 00:43:42.060 --> 00:43:44.810 align:middle line:90% and was a consultant. 00:43:44.810 --> 00:43:46.690 align:middle line:90% How can they do all that? 00:43:46.690 --> 00:43:51.215 align:middle line:90% 00:43:51.215 --> 00:43:52.590 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: You want the answer? 00:43:52.590 --> 00:43:54.840 align:middle line:90% It's a term that has two words. 00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:56.998 align:middle line:90% It's called graduate students. 00:43:56.998 --> 00:43:58.435 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:43:58.435 --> 00:44:04.635 align:middle line:90% 00:44:04.635 --> 00:44:08.130 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Oh, and he's at the top of his profession. 00:44:08.130 --> 00:44:12.240 align:middle line:84% He had this one student that got a master's degree under him, 00:44:12.240 --> 00:44:15.240 align:middle line:90% just barely got through. 00:44:15.240 --> 00:44:21.210 align:middle line:84% And five or six, 10 years later, that particular former student 00:44:21.210 --> 00:44:23.850 align:middle line:90% gave a party at his house. 00:44:23.850 --> 00:44:26.610 align:middle line:84% He had gone out and gotten a little business 00:44:26.610 --> 00:44:29.600 align:middle line:90% and became successful. 00:44:29.600 --> 00:44:32.670 align:middle line:84% And when the professor went to the party, 00:44:32.670 --> 00:44:37.450 align:middle line:84% the house was three times as big as the professor's house. 00:44:37.450 --> 00:44:43.030 align:middle line:84% He had a Rolls Royce and one of the four parking garages, 00:44:43.030 --> 00:44:46.220 align:middle line:84% had four full chimneys, the whole bit. 00:44:46.220 --> 00:44:49.690 align:middle line:84% And the story goes on about how this man began to drink 00:44:49.690 --> 00:44:52.210 align:middle line:90% and wound up in a home. 00:44:52.210 --> 00:44:53.330 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: The professor? 00:44:53.330 --> 00:44:54.690 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: The professor. 00:44:54.690 --> 00:44:55.810 align:middle line:90% That just tore him up. 00:44:55.810 --> 00:44:57.730 align:middle line:90% So you get one story out. 00:44:57.730 --> 00:44:59.830 align:middle line:84% There was another story that hit the newspapers. 00:44:59.830 --> 00:45:02.500 align:middle line:84% I know about this story personally 00:45:02.500 --> 00:45:04.930 align:middle line:84% because this particular professor taught 00:45:04.930 --> 00:45:08.120 align:middle line:90% me a class in graduate school. 00:45:08.120 --> 00:45:09.730 align:middle line:84% It turns out that this particular-- 00:45:09.730 --> 00:45:12.940 align:middle line:84% I won't call a name because in order to call the name, 00:45:12.940 --> 00:45:14.980 align:middle line:84% I have to get all my facts right. 00:45:14.980 --> 00:45:17.530 align:middle line:84% But the facts are not only on the record in the courts 00:45:17.530 --> 00:45:18.670 align:middle line:90% but in the newspapers. 00:45:18.670 --> 00:45:22.220 align:middle line:84% This was in AAUP, all kinds of stuff. 00:45:22.220 --> 00:45:29.860 align:middle line:84% But this professor, turns out he was a very good teacher 00:45:29.860 --> 00:45:32.410 align:middle line:84% and had published some textbooks. 00:45:32.410 --> 00:45:36.370 align:middle line:84% I'm talking about Springer Verlag, top of the line 00:45:36.370 --> 00:45:40.960 align:middle line:84% textbooks, required reading at MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, 00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:42.050 align:middle line:90% Princeton, OK? 00:45:42.050 --> 00:45:45.250 align:middle line:90% 00:45:45.250 --> 00:45:50.770 align:middle line:84% But he did not have any research, none whatsoever, 00:45:50.770 --> 00:45:53.010 align:middle line:90% just a teacher. 00:45:53.010 --> 00:45:59.370 align:middle line:84% Then it came out that he was a full professor with tenure 00:45:59.370 --> 00:46:04.170 align:middle line:84% with a full-time appointment at three different universities 00:46:04.170 --> 00:46:05.550 align:middle line:90% simultaneously. 00:46:05.550 --> 00:46:08.370 align:middle line:84% And he had his schedule made out so that at one place 00:46:08.370 --> 00:46:10.410 align:middle line:84% he had courses only Monday, Wednesday and Friday 00:46:10.410 --> 00:46:13.680 align:middle line:84% in the morning, and other places Monday, 00:46:13.680 --> 00:46:15.630 align:middle line:84% Wednesday and Friday in the afternoon, 00:46:15.630 --> 00:46:18.000 align:middle line:84% and then the one that was out of town in Pennsylvania, 00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:23.190 align:middle line:84% he was in Washington, was in Tuesday, Thursday. 00:46:23.190 --> 00:46:27.270 align:middle line:84% And they caught him and they roasted him on a spit. 00:46:27.270 --> 00:46:30.570 align:middle line:84% But there was a lot of sympathy for his case. 00:46:30.570 --> 00:46:33.360 align:middle line:90% A lot of other factors came in. 00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:34.950 align:middle line:90% He had a daughter that was sick. 00:46:34.950 --> 00:46:36.107 align:middle line:90% And his wife was dead. 00:46:36.107 --> 00:46:37.440 align:middle line:90% Yeah, about all of these things. 00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:38.898 align:middle line:84% But there was one other factor that 00:46:38.898 --> 00:46:43.230 align:middle line:84% came in there that really worked on the academic profession very 00:46:43.230 --> 00:46:46.530 align:middle line:84% hard and that was, is this what a good teacher 00:46:46.530 --> 00:46:54.720 align:middle line:84% has to do in order just to pay bills and stuff? 00:46:54.720 --> 00:46:57.990 align:middle line:84% Maybe we're doing too much to emphasize 00:46:57.990 --> 00:47:00.940 align:middle line:90% the research part of it. 00:47:00.940 --> 00:47:06.620 align:middle line:84% And so his case has never been forgotten. 00:47:06.620 --> 00:47:10.907 align:middle line:84% So underneath the surface, you have all of these currents. 00:47:10.907 --> 00:47:16.160 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Was the issue [INAUDIBLE]?? 00:47:16.160 --> 00:47:19.940 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: The issue was that it was illegal, 00:47:19.940 --> 00:47:21.140 align:middle line:90% that you cannot-- 00:47:21.140 --> 00:47:29.180 align:middle line:84% The issue was that the president wanted to fire him. 00:47:29.180 --> 00:47:34.670 align:middle line:84% And there was a lot of debate on one side or the other 00:47:34.670 --> 00:47:37.670 align:middle line:84% as to whether or not a faculty member 00:47:37.670 --> 00:47:39.140 align:middle line:90% can have more than one job. 00:47:39.140 --> 00:47:44.510 align:middle line:84% And they pointed to this tradition of the one day 00:47:44.510 --> 00:47:49.730 align:middle line:84% a week consulting, that there's this understanding 00:47:49.730 --> 00:47:52.820 align:middle line:84% that when you take on a faculty position, 00:47:52.820 --> 00:47:58.460 align:middle line:84% you've got one day a week to do what you want. 00:47:58.460 --> 00:48:01.670 align:middle line:84% And that usually means consulting or doing 00:48:01.670 --> 00:48:04.790 align:middle line:84% something that will enhance your abilities 00:48:04.790 --> 00:48:08.040 align:middle line:90% to do teaching and research. 00:48:08.040 --> 00:48:11.150 align:middle line:90% You're not going to the beach. 00:48:11.150 --> 00:48:13.057 align:middle line:90% But it's up to you to decide. 00:48:13.057 --> 00:48:15.140 align:middle line:84% It's that it's just an understanding that has been 00:48:15.140 --> 00:48:16.610 align:middle line:90% the case for many, many years. 00:48:16.610 --> 00:48:19.580 align:middle line:84% And it has influence in the courts. 00:48:19.580 --> 00:48:20.960 align:middle line:90% Courts say, this is-- 00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:24.050 align:middle line:84% They'll get all of these college presidents and people get up 00:48:24.050 --> 00:48:26.270 align:middle line:84% and say, yeah, that's just understood. 00:48:26.270 --> 00:48:34.820 align:middle line:84% All right, so you're supposed to get that one day, 00:48:34.820 --> 00:48:38.480 align:middle line:84% but to go and have two other full-time jobs. 00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:41.030 align:middle line:84% And not only that, but when you take a job, 00:48:41.030 --> 00:48:43.640 align:middle line:84% there's some kind of form you sign about, 00:48:43.640 --> 00:48:45.360 align:middle line:90% are you employed someplace else? 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:48.670 align:middle line:84% So they're talking about conflicts of interest. 00:48:48.670 --> 00:48:56.380 align:middle line:84% And for example, here, I'm on this sabbatical. 00:48:56.380 --> 00:48:59.500 align:middle line:84% I'm asked to join the editorial board of this journal. 00:48:59.500 --> 00:49:03.340 align:middle line:84% They say, how should we list you, Howard or MIT? 00:49:03.340 --> 00:49:07.360 align:middle line:84% Well, I learned a long time ago that if you are on sabbatical 00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.980 align:middle line:84% from Howard to another institution, that year, 00:49:11.980 --> 00:49:15.130 align:middle line:90% you're at the other institution. 00:49:15.130 --> 00:49:21.010 align:middle line:84% When you go back, then you go back on the other one. 00:49:21.010 --> 00:49:27.970 align:middle line:84% And the institution where you are on the sabbatical to 00:49:27.970 --> 00:49:30.880 align:middle line:84% will have some mean-spirited ideas 00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:33.160 align:middle line:84% if you don't give them a recognition 00:49:33.160 --> 00:49:36.220 align:middle line:84% and don't give them the prominent recognition. 00:49:36.220 --> 00:49:39.520 align:middle line:84% And they don't even like it if they say, MIT/Howard. 00:49:39.520 --> 00:49:42.860 align:middle line:90% 00:49:42.860 --> 00:49:48.170 align:middle line:90% So my dean and I understand it. 00:49:48.170 --> 00:49:50.510 align:middle line:84% Oh, I tell you what even set him up one day. 00:49:50.510 --> 00:49:54.320 align:middle line:84% I published a paper and put down Duke University. 00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:59.463 align:middle line:84% He said, wait, are you going to submit that for a raise? 00:49:59.463 --> 00:50:01.880 align:middle line:84% So, yeah, I said, well, it's got Duke University on there. 00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:04.338 align:middle line:84% I said yeah, a sabbatical from Howard University and here's 00:50:04.338 --> 00:50:06.680 align:middle line:90% my [INAUDIBLE]. 00:50:06.680 --> 00:50:11.150 align:middle line:84% So in other words, there are some lower-level issues 00:50:11.150 --> 00:50:15.440 align:middle line:84% that are not contested to have legal standing. 00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:19.010 align:middle line:84% And this particular one with this professor was on the cusp. 00:50:19.010 --> 00:50:24.200 align:middle line:90% 00:50:24.200 --> 00:50:26.240 align:middle line:84% What they did in the end was they just, 00:50:26.240 --> 00:50:29.960 align:middle line:84% all three universities fired him. 00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:33.570 align:middle line:84% But one of them gave him his retirement. 00:50:33.570 --> 00:50:39.210 align:middle line:90% 00:50:39.210 --> 00:50:43.062 align:middle line:84% You know the term, skeletons in the closet, 00:50:43.062 --> 00:50:45.270 align:middle line:84% where you've got a family and there are little things 00:50:45.270 --> 00:50:47.187 align:middle line:84% that everybody knows about, but you don't want 00:50:47.187 --> 00:50:48.690 align:middle line:90% everybody else to know about? 00:50:48.690 --> 00:50:51.210 align:middle line:84% In the academic profession, he's a skeleton in our closet. 00:50:51.210 --> 00:50:54.500 align:middle line:84% We really don't want other people to know about his case. 00:50:54.500 --> 00:50:58.170 align:middle line:90% 00:50:58.170 --> 00:51:00.480 align:middle line:84% The only thing about it that I am-- 00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:02.280 align:middle line:84% I suffered some bitterness over that. 00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:07.560 align:middle line:90% 00:51:07.560 --> 00:51:13.290 align:middle line:84% And I made one or two phone calls about it 00:51:13.290 --> 00:51:16.890 align:middle line:90% because I was a former student. 00:51:16.890 --> 00:51:19.020 align:middle line:84% And I was bitter that there just didn't 00:51:19.020 --> 00:51:23.240 align:middle line:84% seem to be interest among students that here 00:51:23.240 --> 00:51:27.050 align:middle line:84% is a teacher that quote unquote "just 00:51:27.050 --> 00:51:29.990 align:middle line:90% can't make it" in his life. 00:51:29.990 --> 00:51:33.120 align:middle line:90% 00:51:33.120 --> 00:51:36.277 align:middle line:84% So anyway, but a whole lot of other issues got involved. 00:51:36.277 --> 00:51:37.110 align:middle line:90% And they were nasty. 00:51:37.110 --> 00:51:39.705 align:middle line:90% 00:51:39.705 --> 00:51:41.580 align:middle line:84% People just want to sweep it under the table. 00:51:41.580 --> 00:51:44.470 align:middle line:90% 00:51:44.470 --> 00:51:47.290 align:middle line:84% But I think one thing they've done about that here at MIT 00:51:47.290 --> 00:51:52.450 align:middle line:84% is they have a rank called a teaching professor. 00:51:52.450 --> 00:51:54.310 align:middle line:84% I know that there's a person in ESD 00:51:54.310 --> 00:51:57.700 align:middle line:90% that's has a rank of teaching-- 00:51:57.700 --> 00:51:59.350 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:51:59.350 --> 00:52:02.590 align:middle line:84% No, it's called teaching professor. 00:52:02.590 --> 00:52:04.750 align:middle line:90% It's Chris Magee. 00:52:04.750 --> 00:52:08.710 align:middle line:84% No, no, he's called, professor of the professional practice 00:52:08.710 --> 00:52:09.650 align:middle line:90% of engineering. 00:52:09.650 --> 00:52:11.020 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 00:52:11.020 --> 00:52:15.740 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: But there's another one that is, I think an ESD. 00:52:15.740 --> 00:52:17.440 align:middle line:90% Well, you all check that. 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:18.100 align:middle line:90% You all check. 00:52:18.100 --> 00:52:21.760 align:middle line:84% But anyway, one way to get around that where 00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:25.960 align:middle line:84% at institutions that could afford to do it 00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:29.935 align:middle line:90% was to create teaching rank. 00:52:29.935 --> 00:52:32.660 align:middle line:90% 00:52:32.660 --> 00:52:35.270 align:middle line:84% So you could have a person, distinguished professor 00:52:35.270 --> 00:52:37.195 align:middle line:90% for teaching at some place. 00:52:37.195 --> 00:52:38.570 align:middle line:84% And all they have to do is teach. 00:52:38.570 --> 00:52:42.950 align:middle line:84% And they can get their raises without submitting grants. 00:52:42.950 --> 00:52:46.220 align:middle line:90% 00:52:46.220 --> 00:52:48.810 align:middle line:84% But that's as far as they've gone with that kind of thing. 00:52:48.810 --> 00:52:52.700 align:middle line:84% But I'm just trying to say that these things are not secret. 00:52:52.700 --> 00:52:55.010 align:middle line:90% You can document all of this. 00:52:55.010 --> 00:52:57.350 align:middle line:84% But it still operates below the level 00:52:57.350 --> 00:52:59.262 align:middle line:84% of what I call the collective unconscious, 00:52:59.262 --> 00:53:00.470 align:middle line:90% the collective consciousness. 00:53:00.470 --> 00:53:02.870 align:middle line:84% Nobody really wants to talk about it. 00:53:02.870 --> 00:53:07.280 align:middle line:84% And underneath what they say and do, will be some of that dust. 00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:10.700 align:middle line:84% And you have that here with this code. 00:53:10.700 --> 00:53:12.960 align:middle line:90% OK, let's sweat it out. 00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:16.440 align:middle line:90% Let's finish these six and-- 00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:19.100 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Number three is issue public statements only 00:53:19.100 --> 00:53:21.242 align:middle line:84% in an objective and truthful manner. 00:53:21.242 --> 00:53:23.200 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: I'll tell you what that was about. 00:53:23.200 --> 00:53:25.780 align:middle line:90% 00:53:25.780 --> 00:53:27.880 align:middle line:84% I'll tell you what that was about. 00:53:27.880 --> 00:53:31.210 align:middle line:84% All of a sudden, the ordinary engineer 00:53:31.210 --> 00:53:38.170 align:middle line:84% became someone that the big news media wanted to interview. 00:53:38.170 --> 00:53:43.390 align:middle line:90% And that was terrifying. 00:53:43.390 --> 00:53:46.930 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's terrifying for a university. 00:53:46.930 --> 00:53:54.840 align:middle line:84% All of a sudden, some ordinary professor is on Nightline 00:53:54.840 --> 00:54:00.550 align:middle line:84% or is interviewed by the New York Times, stuff like that. 00:54:00.550 --> 00:54:10.590 align:middle line:84% And so they really struggled over 00:54:10.590 --> 00:54:13.500 align:middle line:84% who could speak for the company when 00:54:13.500 --> 00:54:19.890 align:middle line:84% there was a question of nuclear waste or something like that. 00:54:19.890 --> 00:54:22.020 align:middle line:90% What can a person say? 00:54:22.020 --> 00:54:28.277 align:middle line:84% And the lawyers got involved in that, free speech. 00:54:28.277 --> 00:54:29.610 align:middle line:90% Not that they were defending it. 00:54:29.610 --> 00:54:32.850 align:middle line:84% But they were trying to tell the presidents, 00:54:32.850 --> 00:54:36.300 align:middle line:84% the CEOs of corporations that you cannot suppress these 00:54:36.300 --> 00:54:37.740 align:middle line:90% employees. 00:54:37.740 --> 00:54:39.990 align:middle line:84% Because then the employee will take you to court 00:54:39.990 --> 00:54:42.540 align:middle line:90% and win big time. 00:54:42.540 --> 00:54:43.560 align:middle line:90% So what can you do? 00:54:43.560 --> 00:54:49.230 align:middle line:84% So that issue there was really the cover, ordinary people 00:54:49.230 --> 00:54:53.025 align:middle line:90% who now become celebrities. 00:54:53.025 --> 00:54:54.900 align:middle line:84% And some of them, let's face it, some of them 00:54:54.900 --> 00:54:57.490 align:middle line:84% get drunk with being a celebrity. 00:54:57.490 --> 00:55:00.563 align:middle line:90% You know what I mean? 00:55:00.563 --> 00:55:01.230 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:55:01.230 --> 00:55:03.580 align:middle line:90% 00:55:03.580 --> 00:55:05.580 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Look, I mean, let's think about it. 00:55:05.580 --> 00:55:07.890 align:middle line:84% The ordinary things, we've all been through this. 00:55:07.890 --> 00:55:09.090 align:middle line:90% I've been through it. 00:55:09.090 --> 00:55:11.220 align:middle line:84% When the shuttle Challenger went down, 00:55:11.220 --> 00:55:13.980 align:middle line:84% Howard University has a TV station. 00:55:13.980 --> 00:55:15.510 align:middle line:84% So they had this call-in program. 00:55:15.510 --> 00:55:18.622 align:middle line:84% So they asked me to come in and take the calls. 00:55:18.622 --> 00:55:20.580 align:middle line:84% Just before the calls come in, I'm sitting down 00:55:20.580 --> 00:55:23.250 align:middle line:84% and they got a make-up artist, all this. 00:55:23.250 --> 00:55:25.170 align:middle line:84% You can let that stuff go to your head. 00:55:25.170 --> 00:55:28.200 align:middle line:90% 00:55:28.200 --> 00:55:30.750 align:middle line:90% It was easy for me. 00:55:30.750 --> 00:55:33.690 align:middle line:84% I just did my job and went back to the Library of Congress. 00:55:33.690 --> 00:55:38.370 align:middle line:84% But some people, stuff goes to their heads. 00:55:38.370 --> 00:55:43.170 align:middle line:84% And they start making life miserable for a lot of people 00:55:43.170 --> 00:55:44.670 align:middle line:90% unnecessarily. 00:55:44.670 --> 00:55:47.430 align:middle line:84% So there was a lot of that underneath the surface, that 00:55:47.430 --> 00:55:48.300 align:middle line:90% came to the surface. 00:55:48.300 --> 00:55:51.150 align:middle line:90% 00:55:51.150 --> 00:55:53.500 align:middle line:84% What they did was, there's a term, 00:55:53.500 --> 00:55:55.920 align:middle line:84% I don't know if it's a term of art, 00:55:55.920 --> 00:55:57.120 align:middle line:90% but you're going to get it. 00:55:57.120 --> 00:56:00.540 align:middle line:90% And it's called wordsmithing. 00:56:00.540 --> 00:56:02.010 align:middle line:84% Everybody knew what we had to do. 00:56:02.010 --> 00:56:03.720 align:middle line:84% Everybody agreed what we had to do. 00:56:03.720 --> 00:56:07.540 align:middle line:84% It was, what words can we write down here? 00:56:07.540 --> 00:56:11.610 align:middle line:84% And so that particular one turned out for-- 00:56:11.610 --> 00:56:13.290 align:middle line:84% I think it's fair to say, for people 00:56:13.290 --> 00:56:16.890 align:middle line:84% who are writing codes of ethics, to be a wordsmithing 00:56:16.890 --> 00:56:21.840 align:middle line:84% challenge, particularly to get a lawyer in there so that we 00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:22.840 align:middle line:90% didn't go over the line. 00:56:22.840 --> 00:56:24.640 align:middle line:84% But everybody agreed on the principle. 00:56:24.640 --> 00:56:27.280 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But it seems like the underlying 00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:30.220 align:middle line:84% aim of that principle is to present the company maybe 00:56:30.220 --> 00:56:31.390 align:middle line:90% in a more positive manner. 00:56:31.390 --> 00:56:33.390 align:middle line:84% So you can't get an employee and get on the news 00:56:33.390 --> 00:56:34.844 align:middle line:90% and say [INAUDIBLE]. 00:56:34.844 --> 00:56:35.636 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:56:35.636 --> 00:56:36.510 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: You could maybe like underline. 00:56:36.510 --> 00:56:38.925 align:middle line:84% It seems like that's not necessarily-- 00:56:38.925 --> 00:56:41.930 align:middle line:84% You could adhere to that and be truthful and maybe say 00:56:41.930 --> 00:56:44.640 align:middle line:84% some things that management might not like. 00:56:44.640 --> 00:56:47.900 align:middle line:84% And you are being objective and truthful. 00:56:47.900 --> 00:56:48.744 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:56:48.744 --> 00:56:51.286 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But maybe that is one of the underlying assumptions 00:56:51.286 --> 00:56:56.820 align:middle line:84% that management [INAUDIBLE] it puts them in a better light. 00:56:56.820 --> 00:56:59.220 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Right, well definitely that's true. 00:56:59.220 --> 00:57:06.060 align:middle line:84% The way big organizations deal with that 00:57:06.060 --> 00:57:09.270 align:middle line:84% is not to come out and tell everybody 00:57:09.270 --> 00:57:11.520 align:middle line:84% that they have to say things that put 00:57:11.520 --> 00:57:13.740 align:middle line:90% the company in the best light. 00:57:13.740 --> 00:57:16.170 align:middle line:84% What they do is, you're just not going 00:57:16.170 --> 00:57:17.550 align:middle line:84% to make it up to management level 00:57:17.550 --> 00:57:19.870 align:middle line:90% unless you really feel that way. 00:57:19.870 --> 00:57:21.800 align:middle line:90% So it becomes an honest-- 00:57:21.800 --> 00:57:23.460 align:middle line:84% So if you get a manager up there, 00:57:23.460 --> 00:57:25.170 align:middle line:90% the manager is not lying. 00:57:25.170 --> 00:57:26.760 align:middle line:84% The manager is the person who was 00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:29.880 align:middle line:84% chosen because he or she really feels that way, 00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:34.200 align:middle line:84% has that real outlook everybody believes and can portray it 00:57:34.200 --> 00:57:38.850 align:middle line:84% as something really something truthful and objective. 00:57:38.850 --> 00:57:40.830 align:middle line:84% Somebody who feels differently is just not 00:57:40.830 --> 00:57:45.090 align:middle line:84% going to make it along those lines. 00:57:45.090 --> 00:57:49.110 align:middle line:84% And you hope, when I say you, I mean the CEO, 00:57:49.110 --> 00:57:53.130 align:middle line:84% hopes that somebody who is not in that line 00:57:53.130 --> 00:57:56.820 align:middle line:84% is not being interviewed and know the newspapers, know 00:57:56.820 --> 00:57:57.750 align:middle line:90% the structure. 00:57:57.750 --> 00:58:00.570 align:middle line:84% They to get one person to say the party line. 00:58:00.570 --> 00:58:03.160 align:middle line:84% They want to get another person to say something else. 00:58:03.160 --> 00:58:04.960 align:middle line:84% And they play it against each other. 00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:06.090 align:middle line:90% And it's hard to deal with. 00:58:06.090 --> 00:58:09.180 align:middle line:90% 00:58:09.180 --> 00:58:11.010 align:middle line:84% What happens in the end, I think, 00:58:11.010 --> 00:58:15.390 align:middle line:84% is that if you have to do anything like that, 00:58:15.390 --> 00:58:19.260 align:middle line:84% and I've learned from experience, 00:58:19.260 --> 00:58:23.160 align:middle line:84% is just to say that you are not a spokesman 00:58:23.160 --> 00:58:25.680 align:middle line:90% for your corporation. 00:58:25.680 --> 00:58:26.820 align:middle line:90% You are an engineer there. 00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:30.910 align:middle line:84% And you are speaking from the perspective of an engineer 00:58:30.910 --> 00:58:31.410 align:middle line:90% there. 00:58:31.410 --> 00:58:36.060 align:middle line:84% And this is my perspective and my outlook and my experience. 00:58:36.060 --> 00:58:38.190 align:middle line:90% But you don't drag-- 00:58:38.190 --> 00:58:39.970 align:middle line:84% You don't take credit for saying, well, 00:58:39.970 --> 00:58:41.841 align:middle line:90% at my company, we-- 00:58:41.841 --> 00:58:43.347 align:middle line:90% Don't make statements like that. 00:58:43.347 --> 00:58:44.430 align:middle line:90% Somebody else could do it. 00:58:44.430 --> 00:58:46.770 align:middle line:90% But you can't do it. 00:58:46.770 --> 00:58:49.380 align:middle line:90% OK, how many more have we got? 00:58:49.380 --> 00:58:50.190 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Three. 00:58:50.190 --> 00:58:51.070 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Three? 00:58:51.070 --> 00:58:51.945 align:middle line:90% Let's knock them out. 00:58:51.945 --> 00:58:55.240 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Number four, acts for each employer or client 00:58:55.240 --> 00:58:56.898 align:middle line:90% as faithful agent or trustees. 00:58:56.898 --> 00:59:00.040 align:middle line:90% 00:59:00.040 --> 00:59:02.830 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yes, what is a faithful agent? 00:59:02.830 --> 00:59:06.870 align:middle line:90% 00:59:06.870 --> 00:59:09.960 align:middle line:90% We got that from the lawyers. 00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:14.555 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So in the specifics, under rules of practice, 00:59:14.555 --> 00:59:17.870 align:middle line:84% it talks about disclosing known or potential conflicts 00:59:17.870 --> 00:59:18.980 align:middle line:90% of interest. 00:59:18.980 --> 00:59:21.920 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:24.350 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Not accepting compensation 00:59:24.350 --> 00:59:28.480 align:middle line:84% from more than one party for services on the same thing, 00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:35.310 align:middle line:84% not soliciting or accepting the financial consideration 00:59:35.310 --> 00:59:37.230 align:middle line:90% from outside agents. 00:59:37.230 --> 00:59:39.220 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 00:59:39.220 --> 00:59:42.167 align:middle line:84% So those are the particulars on this issue of faithful agency. 00:59:42.167 --> 00:59:45.120 align:middle line:90% 00:59:45.120 --> 00:59:48.245 align:middle line:90% So when you go to a-- 00:59:48.245 --> 00:59:56.940 align:middle line:90% 00:59:56.940 --> 00:59:59.800 align:middle line:84% You might go to a contractor and say, 00:59:59.800 --> 01:00:01.870 align:middle line:84% I need another wing put on my house. 01:00:01.870 --> 01:00:04.540 align:middle line:90% 01:00:04.540 --> 01:00:07.060 align:middle line:84% You want to believe that the contractor has your interest 01:00:07.060 --> 01:00:11.140 align:middle line:90% in paramount first. 01:00:11.140 --> 01:00:13.370 align:middle line:84% And that the person is not saying, 01:00:13.370 --> 01:00:21.190 align:middle line:84% well the real estate agency thinks 01:00:21.190 --> 01:00:24.130 align:middle line:84% that the market in this neighborhood 01:00:24.130 --> 01:00:30.340 align:middle line:84% will be higher if we don't have a whole lot of extensions 01:00:30.340 --> 01:00:31.228 align:middle line:90% put on these homes. 01:00:31.228 --> 01:00:32.770 align:middle line:84% I don't know why they would say that. 01:00:32.770 --> 01:00:35.120 align:middle line:90% But I'm making up a case. 01:00:35.120 --> 01:00:37.750 align:middle line:84% And so they go to this meeting with the contractors 01:00:37.750 --> 01:00:42.400 align:middle line:84% and say, well, look, it's not in our interest 01:00:42.400 --> 01:00:43.970 align:middle line:90% having all of these things. 01:00:43.970 --> 01:00:47.360 align:middle line:84% So what the contractor does is come back, let's say, and says, 01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:49.990 align:middle line:84% well, quotes you the highest prices on everything, 01:00:49.990 --> 01:00:52.600 align:middle line:84% try to discourage you from doing it. 01:00:52.600 --> 01:00:54.070 align:middle line:90% We don't want that. 01:00:54.070 --> 01:00:55.570 align:middle line:84% The contractors will say, no matter 01:00:55.570 --> 01:01:01.120 align:middle line:84% what, the other interests are, I am your agent. 01:01:01.120 --> 01:01:07.150 align:middle line:84% And if you want this thing put on, here are the prices. 01:01:07.150 --> 01:01:09.910 align:middle line:90% These are the best prices. 01:01:09.910 --> 01:01:12.010 align:middle line:84% And you don't need to have steel put 01:01:12.010 --> 01:01:17.290 align:middle line:84% in as a column for a one-story extension of your kitchen. 01:01:17.290 --> 01:01:23.127 align:middle line:84% We can do that with a 4 by 4 piece of wood. 01:01:23.127 --> 01:01:25.210 align:middle line:84% But you got to get a good piece of wood, hardwood. 01:01:25.210 --> 01:01:26.500 align:middle line:90% So this is the kind you get. 01:01:26.500 --> 01:01:29.680 align:middle line:90% Save yourself $2,000 or $3,000. 01:01:29.680 --> 01:01:32.770 align:middle line:84% So they don't want you playing those kinds of games. 01:01:32.770 --> 01:01:38.080 align:middle line:84% They want the client or whoever you're working for-- 01:01:38.080 --> 01:01:41.020 align:middle line:84% A good example is with the legal profession. 01:01:41.020 --> 01:01:44.230 align:middle line:84% A lot of them believe they're going 01:01:44.230 --> 01:01:46.810 align:middle line:90% to be agents for their client. 01:01:46.810 --> 01:01:50.140 align:middle line:84% So I mean, you could be notorious killer. 01:01:50.140 --> 01:01:51.880 align:middle line:84% If you're supposed to defend that client, 01:01:51.880 --> 01:01:53.255 align:middle line:84% guess what you're supposed to do? 01:01:53.255 --> 01:01:55.660 align:middle line:84% Do your best to defend that client. 01:01:55.660 --> 01:02:01.960 align:middle line:90% 01:02:01.960 --> 01:02:03.582 align:middle line:90% What's next? 01:02:03.582 --> 01:02:06.560 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Avoid deceptive acts, which I think ties into it. 01:02:06.560 --> 01:02:07.506 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah, 01:02:07.506 --> 01:02:10.743 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 01:02:10.743 --> 01:02:12.910 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Is that what we would call an easy one? 01:02:12.910 --> 01:02:13.870 align:middle line:90% Give us some specifics. 01:02:13.870 --> 01:02:15.490 align:middle line:90% What are one or two specifics? 01:02:15.490 --> 01:02:19.800 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Engineers should not falsify their qualifications. 01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:22.700 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:02:22.700 --> 01:02:23.200 align:middle line:90% 01:02:23.200 --> 01:02:25.036 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Oh. 01:02:25.036 --> 01:02:27.960 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Or permit misrepresentation 01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:30.940 align:middle line:84% of their associates' qualifications. 01:02:30.940 --> 01:02:34.000 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: We had a case at Howard where a faculty 01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:35.410 align:middle line:90% member in engineering-- 01:02:35.410 --> 01:02:37.580 align:middle line:84% Oh, this was a terrible case for other reasons. 01:02:37.580 --> 01:02:40.240 align:middle line:84% If you want to know them, we've got time to go. 01:02:40.240 --> 01:02:44.590 align:middle line:84% But what he did was he submitted credentials 01:02:44.590 --> 01:02:48.620 align:middle line:90% of 200 publications. 01:02:48.620 --> 01:02:50.180 align:middle line:90% Had them nicely set down. 01:02:50.180 --> 01:02:52.700 align:middle line:90% 01:02:52.700 --> 01:02:54.710 align:middle line:84% And he came in from another university. 01:02:54.710 --> 01:03:00.265 align:middle line:84% And the department gave him full professorship, 01:03:00.265 --> 01:03:01.390 align:middle line:90% full professor with tenure. 01:03:01.390 --> 01:03:02.848 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Based on his presentation 01:03:02.848 --> 01:03:04.370 align:middle line:90% of those 200 publications? 01:03:04.370 --> 01:03:06.905 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah, made 99%. 01:03:06.905 --> 01:03:10.440 align:middle line:90% 01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:12.190 align:middle line:84% There was some question as to why he never 01:03:12.190 --> 01:03:18.540 align:middle line:84% made full any of his previous places. 01:03:18.540 --> 01:03:26.820 align:middle line:84% But that is usually answered by the real problem 01:03:26.820 --> 01:03:29.352 align:middle line:84% of the real case that maybe he just didn't fit in. 01:03:29.352 --> 01:03:32.070 align:middle line:90% 01:03:32.070 --> 01:03:36.810 align:middle line:84% So I can think of some very talented professors 01:03:36.810 --> 01:03:38.800 align:middle line:90% that will not fit in at Howard. 01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:42.070 align:middle line:90% 01:03:42.070 --> 01:03:46.210 align:middle line:84% So we brought the professor down. 01:03:46.210 --> 01:03:49.060 align:middle line:84% Well, he did something else that was 01:03:49.060 --> 01:03:53.470 align:middle line:84% totally irrelevant to that that everybody wanted 01:03:53.470 --> 01:03:55.090 align:middle line:90% to fire him for. 01:03:55.090 --> 01:03:58.690 align:middle line:84% So the department is building up a case against him. 01:03:58.690 --> 01:04:01.870 align:middle line:90% 01:04:01.870 --> 01:04:05.810 align:middle line:84% So they go back through his resume. 01:04:05.810 --> 01:04:14.620 align:middle line:84% What they found out was that almost all of his publications 01:04:14.620 --> 01:04:16.510 align:middle line:90% were what you call commentaries. 01:04:16.510 --> 01:04:19.590 align:middle line:90% 01:04:19.590 --> 01:04:22.940 align:middle line:84% So you publish an article that comes out. 01:04:22.940 --> 01:04:27.390 align:middle line:84% And then many journals will allow a certain period of time, 01:04:27.390 --> 01:04:30.470 align:middle line:84% like a year, calendar year, for the rest of us to say, well, 01:04:30.470 --> 01:04:36.650 align:middle line:84% I think that the equation 3.2 in her report was incorrect. 01:04:36.650 --> 01:04:38.360 align:middle line:90% It left out the square term. 01:04:38.360 --> 01:04:40.340 align:middle line:84% You put it the squared term and send it back. 01:04:40.340 --> 01:04:42.380 align:middle line:90% And they publish it right along. 01:04:42.380 --> 01:04:45.215 align:middle line:90% He had 200 commentary papers. 01:04:45.215 --> 01:04:49.890 align:middle line:90% 01:04:49.890 --> 01:04:52.290 align:middle line:90% And we felt deceived. 01:04:52.290 --> 01:04:57.270 align:middle line:84% We had made a contract with Mephistopheles. 01:04:57.270 --> 01:05:01.470 align:middle line:84% We thought that he should have put in-- 01:05:01.470 --> 01:05:04.650 align:middle line:90% Now, I may do commentary papers. 01:05:04.650 --> 01:05:06.510 align:middle line:84% But what I put all of the credentials 01:05:06.510 --> 01:05:10.200 align:middle line:84% down in for the commentary, I have a square bracket 01:05:10.200 --> 01:05:12.210 align:middle line:84% at the end that says commentary paper. 01:05:12.210 --> 01:05:13.830 align:middle line:84% Oh, actually what I do in my resume, 01:05:13.830 --> 01:05:16.590 align:middle line:84% I think you should look at my resume. 01:05:16.590 --> 01:05:22.360 align:middle line:84% I got commentary paper, I think, right up after the title. 01:05:22.360 --> 01:05:25.360 align:middle line:84% But I make sure that it's commentary paper. 01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:27.280 align:middle line:84% Now, what I do to give a little bit of credit 01:05:27.280 --> 01:05:30.550 align:middle line:84% for myself is that the commentary papers I've written 01:05:30.550 --> 01:05:33.550 align:middle line:84% were what they call invited commentators. 01:05:33.550 --> 01:05:35.500 align:middle line:84% The editor will send me the copy of the paper 01:05:35.500 --> 01:05:37.630 align:middle line:84% and say, look, we need a commentary on it. 01:05:37.630 --> 01:05:40.030 align:middle line:84% I'm not sitting there saying, oh, 01:05:40.030 --> 01:05:43.390 align:middle line:84% I think this equation 3.2 is wrong. 01:05:43.390 --> 01:05:44.440 align:middle line:90% Not that I wouldn't. 01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:49.010 align:middle line:84% It just has not happened for me in my career to do that. 01:05:49.010 --> 01:05:51.130 align:middle line:84% So I will put "invited commentary" 01:05:51.130 --> 01:05:53.020 align:middle line:84% down there to give it a little more status. 01:05:53.020 --> 01:05:54.888 align:middle line:90% There's nothing wrong with that. 01:05:54.888 --> 01:05:57.940 align:middle line:90% 01:05:57.940 --> 01:06:01.810 align:middle line:84% So that's a deception that, this was an engineer. 01:06:01.810 --> 01:06:04.510 align:middle line:84% So I'm looking at it as not just academic profession, 01:06:04.510 --> 01:06:06.010 align:middle line:90% but as engineering. 01:06:06.010 --> 01:06:09.463 align:middle line:84% This guy deceived us as we were engineering colleagues. 01:06:09.463 --> 01:06:12.307 align:middle line:90% 01:06:12.307 --> 01:06:14.390 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Another one's that's interesting on here 01:06:14.390 --> 01:06:17.590 align:middle line:84% is, engineers shall advise their clients or employers when 01:06:17.590 --> 01:06:20.200 align:middle line:84% they believe that a project will not be successful. 01:06:20.200 --> 01:06:23.430 align:middle line:90% 01:06:23.430 --> 01:06:25.240 align:middle line:90% I thought was interesting one. 01:06:25.240 --> 01:06:27.690 align:middle line:84% And it goes back to the managing engineer. 01:06:27.690 --> 01:06:31.120 align:middle line:84% But it is the engineer's job to say, this is going to work, 01:06:31.120 --> 01:06:32.100 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE]. 01:06:32.100 --> 01:06:34.810 align:middle line:90% 01:06:34.810 --> 01:06:35.560 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 01:06:35.560 --> 01:06:37.560 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Is that under the deceptive acts one, 01:06:37.560 --> 01:06:38.560 align:middle line:90% do you know? 01:06:38.560 --> 01:06:47.270 align:middle line:90% 01:06:47.270 --> 01:06:49.770 align:middle line:84% I'm just curious so I can find it. 01:06:49.770 --> 01:06:53.768 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: It's also a scary situation to be in, isn't it? 01:06:53.768 --> 01:06:57.560 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But I think it's a good one. 01:06:57.560 --> 01:06:59.200 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Do you have any more? 01:06:59.200 --> 01:07:04.840 align:middle line:90% 01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:05.800 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Oh, I see. 01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:10.640 align:middle line:84% It's under professional obligation. 01:07:10.640 --> 01:07:12.470 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: So read it, please. 01:07:12.470 --> 01:07:15.777 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, OK, so the sixth canon, well-- 01:07:15.777 --> 01:07:17.860 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [? Chris, ?] that could be really awful. 01:07:17.860 --> 01:07:19.030 align:middle line:90% That's way out of order. 01:07:19.030 --> 01:07:20.290 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So we just did the fifth canon 01:07:20.290 --> 01:07:21.760 align:middle line:90% which is, avoid deceptive acts. 01:07:21.760 --> 01:07:25.450 align:middle line:84% And then the sixth canon is, conduct themselves honorably, 01:07:25.450 --> 01:07:28.900 align:middle line:84% responsibly, ethically, and lawfully so as 01:07:28.900 --> 01:07:31.480 align:middle line:84% to enhance the honor, reputation, and usefulness 01:07:31.480 --> 01:07:32.870 align:middle line:90% of the profession. 01:07:32.870 --> 01:07:35.530 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yeah, I always had an objection to that. 01:07:35.530 --> 01:07:40.375 align:middle line:84% I don't have any obligation to enhance the profession. 01:07:40.375 --> 01:07:41.500 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: You don think so? 01:07:41.500 --> 01:07:44.800 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: No, I don't think so. 01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:46.300 align:middle line:90% Certainly no moral obligation. 01:07:46.300 --> 01:07:48.340 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: It seems like the whole section 01:07:48.340 --> 01:07:52.390 align:middle line:84% professional obligation pertains to that canon. 01:07:52.390 --> 01:07:55.430 align:middle line:84% And what you just brought up is under professional obligations. 01:07:55.430 --> 01:07:58.570 align:middle line:84% So it says, engineers shall advise their clients 01:07:58.570 --> 01:08:01.000 align:middle line:84% or employers when they believe a project would not 01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:03.550 align:middle line:90% be successful. 01:08:03.550 --> 01:08:06.910 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: OK, well, let me mention this. 01:08:06.910 --> 01:08:09.970 align:middle line:84% That I stand almost alone in this 01:08:09.970 --> 01:08:11.830 align:middle line:84% when it comes to enhancing the profession. 01:08:11.830 --> 01:08:13.622 align:middle line:84% I don't believe that I have any obligation. 01:08:13.622 --> 01:08:15.220 align:middle line:90% But I have been overruled. 01:08:15.220 --> 01:08:21.630 align:middle line:90% 01:08:21.630 --> 01:08:23.130 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: What's the argument, then? 01:08:23.130 --> 01:08:26.819 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: OK, I was thinking of a metaphor. 01:08:26.819 --> 01:08:29.310 align:middle line:84% Let me just put the argument down. 01:08:29.310 --> 01:08:33.120 align:middle line:84% If a profession is going to be honorable, 01:08:33.120 --> 01:08:36.899 align:middle line:84% it has to be honorable without our making it honorable. 01:08:36.899 --> 01:08:41.069 align:middle line:84% Well, I shouldn't have to do anything other than the minimum 01:08:41.069 --> 01:08:42.870 align:middle line:90% to make it honorable. 01:08:42.870 --> 01:08:46.050 align:middle line:84% Going beyond and saying, I have some respect 01:08:46.050 --> 01:08:51.600 align:middle line:84% for the honor of the profession, that's circular. 01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:55.350 align:middle line:84% If the profession is honorable, it's got to earn it. 01:08:55.350 --> 01:08:57.569 align:middle line:84% I shouldn't have to go around and do something extra 01:08:57.569 --> 01:08:58.822 align:middle line:90% to make it honorable. 01:08:58.822 --> 01:09:01.479 align:middle line:90% 01:09:01.479 --> 01:09:12.482 align:middle line:84% And so it should be honorable because of what it is. 01:09:12.482 --> 01:09:13.899 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: All the things that came 01:09:13.899 --> 01:09:16.417 align:middle line:84% before, following all of those things, 01:09:16.417 --> 01:09:18.250 align:middle line:84% should maintain the honor of the profession. 01:09:18.250 --> 01:09:20.920 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Make it honorable, right. 01:09:20.920 --> 01:09:24.850 align:middle line:84% I shouldn't have to go outside of that to enhance the honor. 01:09:24.850 --> 01:09:27.388 align:middle line:90% 01:09:27.388 --> 01:09:29.430 align:middle line:84% Because if you say that engineering is honorable, 01:09:29.430 --> 01:09:31.260 align:middle line:84% then I should only have to do engineering 01:09:31.260 --> 01:09:34.290 align:middle line:90% and it will be honorable. 01:09:34.290 --> 01:09:37.710 align:middle line:84% Then you have deceived me if I have 01:09:37.710 --> 01:09:40.970 align:middle line:84% to do more than that to make it honorable. 01:09:40.970 --> 01:09:44.978 align:middle line:84% All right, so I stand firm on my position. 01:09:44.978 --> 01:09:46.770 align:middle line:84% But I'm the only one out there saying this. 01:09:46.770 --> 01:09:53.060 align:middle line:90% 01:09:53.060 --> 01:09:58.420 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I guess I think maybe that enhancing the honor 01:09:58.420 --> 01:10:02.200 align:middle line:84% and enhancing public reputation, and enhancing it, 01:10:02.200 --> 01:10:04.890 align:middle line:84% not just maintaining it, is more something that 01:10:04.890 --> 01:10:13.560 align:middle line:84% belongs in a recommendation, a request, letter to colleagues. 01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:14.390 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 01:10:14.390 --> 01:10:17.713 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Instead of a code of ethics you have to sign. 01:10:17.713 --> 01:10:19.880 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: A code of ethics should be the minimum. 01:10:19.880 --> 01:10:21.160 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 01:10:21.160 --> 01:10:23.285 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: And the minimum should be good enough. 01:10:23.285 --> 01:10:26.950 align:middle line:90% 01:10:26.950 --> 01:10:28.810 align:middle line:84% And anything that I do above the minimum 01:10:28.810 --> 01:10:31.060 align:middle line:84% is my business, but not an obligation. 01:10:31.060 --> 01:10:34.170 align:middle line:90% 01:10:34.170 --> 01:10:37.080 align:middle line:84% All of these words in ethics, duty, obligation, 01:10:37.080 --> 01:10:39.282 align:middle line:90% they're talking about minimums. 01:10:39.282 --> 01:10:40.740 align:middle line:84% If you go beyond that, that's good. 01:10:40.740 --> 01:10:42.522 align:middle line:84% But I don't have to go beyond it. 01:10:42.522 --> 01:10:44.893 align:middle line:90% 01:10:44.893 --> 01:10:46.310 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But a lot of people feel 01:10:46.310 --> 01:10:48.680 align:middle line:84% like it belongs in the fundamental canons. 01:10:48.680 --> 01:10:52.984 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yes, but I was overruled everywhere. 01:10:52.984 --> 01:10:58.530 align:middle line:90% 01:10:58.530 --> 01:11:00.405 align:middle line:90% OK we've got two more minutes. 01:11:00.405 --> 01:11:03.150 align:middle line:90% 01:11:03.150 --> 01:11:04.830 align:middle line:84% I think that you've already picked up 01:11:04.830 --> 01:11:08.190 align:middle line:84% that the other codes of ethics do not differ substantially, 01:11:08.190 --> 01:11:13.350 align:middle line:84% or if they do, it's mainly by abbreviation of this code. 01:11:13.350 --> 01:11:21.450 align:middle line:84% The AAES code is unique in as much as it stands, 01:11:21.450 --> 01:11:25.530 align:middle line:84% it's called model, guide, or code. 01:11:25.530 --> 01:11:28.920 align:middle line:84% And it tries to get some kind of coherence 01:11:28.920 --> 01:11:31.740 align:middle line:84% among all of the professional societies that 01:11:31.740 --> 01:11:34.530 align:middle line:90% belong to the AAES. 01:11:34.530 --> 01:11:35.865 align:middle line:90% Individuals don't belong. 01:11:35.865 --> 01:11:39.316 align:middle line:90% 01:11:39.316 --> 01:11:45.310 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So does that mean that the AAES code does not obligate 01:11:45.310 --> 01:11:47.138 align:middle line:90% anyone, like it's just a model? 01:11:47.138 --> 01:11:48.430 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: It's just a model. 01:11:48.430 --> 01:11:53.620 align:middle line:84% But the reason for it is that engineers 01:11:53.620 --> 01:11:57.370 align:middle line:84% were advised by high-level people in Congress 01:11:57.370 --> 01:12:03.820 align:middle line:84% that engineering does not have a force in Congress 01:12:03.820 --> 01:12:06.760 align:middle line:84% like the AMA has because the AMA can 01:12:06.760 --> 01:12:08.230 align:middle line:90% speak for the whole profession. 01:12:08.230 --> 01:12:10.900 align:middle line:84% And engineering, you got 10, 12 different organizations 01:12:10.900 --> 01:12:12.890 align:middle line:90% saying different things. 01:12:12.890 --> 01:12:15.280 align:middle line:84% So if you believe that engineering should 01:12:15.280 --> 01:12:21.010 align:middle line:84% have some force among congressional people, 01:12:21.010 --> 01:12:24.940 align:middle line:84% should have a lobbying dimension, 01:12:24.940 --> 01:12:30.520 align:middle line:84% then try to make your code as consistent with the AAES model 01:12:30.520 --> 01:12:31.360 align:middle line:90% code as you can. 01:12:31.360 --> 01:12:33.250 align:middle line:90% And that gets us closer to that. 01:12:33.250 --> 01:12:35.458 align:middle line:84% Other than that, you're free to do whatever you want. 01:12:35.458 --> 01:12:39.610 align:middle line:90% 01:12:39.610 --> 01:12:42.160 align:middle line:84% OK, so we're going to have a special event coming up Friday 01:12:42.160 --> 01:12:43.840 align:middle line:90% for those of us who want to go. 01:12:43.840 --> 01:12:44.740 align:middle line:90% I want to go. 01:12:44.740 --> 01:12:47.020 align:middle line:90% I'll be there. 01:12:47.020 --> 01:12:52.400 align:middle line:84% And give us a little five-minute on Tuesday. 01:12:52.400 --> 01:12:57.070 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Do we need to prepare anything for Tuesday? 01:12:57.070 --> 01:12:58.784 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: I hadn't thought about it. 01:12:58.784 --> 01:13:00.226 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Will you email us if-- 01:13:00.226 --> 01:13:03.160 align:middle line:90% 01:13:03.160 --> 01:13:07.300 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: If I think of something on Sunday night, 01:13:07.300 --> 01:13:09.590 align:middle line:90% that'll be too late. 01:13:09.590 --> 01:13:11.590 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Is there anything you want us to read? 01:13:11.590 --> 01:13:15.635 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: No, actually, unless I get a brilliant idea, 01:13:15.635 --> 01:13:18.010 align:middle line:84% and I think my brain is not ready for any brilliant ideas 01:13:18.010 --> 01:13:18.700 align:middle line:90% right now. 01:13:18.700 --> 01:13:20.350 align:middle line:84% Unless I get a brilliant idea, I'll 01:13:20.350 --> 01:13:24.070 align:middle line:84% just close out the discussion with codes 01:13:24.070 --> 01:13:28.610 align:middle line:90% of ethics and professionalism. 01:13:28.610 --> 01:13:31.100 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Can we talk about just, in general, 01:13:31.100 --> 01:13:38.582 align:middle line:84% the basics of ethics because it's nice to just take 01:13:38.582 --> 01:13:40.290 align:middle line:90% principles, codes, [INAUDIBLE]. 01:13:40.290 --> 01:13:42.787 align:middle line:84% But I think there's probably some arguments that 01:13:42.787 --> 01:13:45.580 align:middle line:84% can be made using the example of the professor who, again, 01:13:45.580 --> 01:13:49.960 align:middle line:84% violated various aspects of a certain code 01:13:49.960 --> 01:13:54.297 align:middle line:84% but didn't really do anything so horrible and so wrong. 01:13:54.297 --> 01:13:55.380 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: By all means. 01:13:55.380 --> 01:13:56.820 align:middle line:90% Bring it up. 01:13:56.820 --> 01:13:59.830 align:middle line:84% Oh, I've got some stuff to say on that. 01:13:59.830 --> 01:14:00.870 align:middle line:90% You know me by now. 01:14:00.870 --> 01:14:02.620 align:middle line:90% I got something to say. 01:14:02.620 --> 01:14:05.210 align:middle line:90% OK, Thank you.