WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.570 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.570 --> 00:00:02.370 align:middle line:84% The following content is provided 00:00:02.370 --> 00:00:06.330 align:middle line:84% by MIT OpenCourseWare under a Creative Commons license. 00:00:06.330 --> 00:00:08.430 align:middle line:84% Additional information about our license 00:00:08.430 --> 00:00:10.800 align:middle line:84% and MIT OpenCourseWare in general 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:12.730 align:middle line:90% is available at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:12.730 --> 00:00:15.450 align:middle line:90% 00:00:15.450 --> 00:00:19.470 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Well, I want to talk about four things. 00:00:19.470 --> 00:00:22.620 align:middle line:84% And as I thought about it, I was going to put number 4 last, 00:00:22.620 --> 00:00:27.950 align:middle line:84% but I've decided to put it first because I think it'll 00:00:27.950 --> 00:00:29.360 align:middle line:90% move some stuff out of the way. 00:00:29.360 --> 00:00:35.758 align:middle line:84% And that fourth thing, I think, is don't be cynical. 00:00:35.758 --> 00:00:38.050 align:middle line:84% There are a lot of people who grow around life thinking 00:00:38.050 --> 00:00:42.190 align:middle line:84% that every organization they work with is corrupt, 00:00:42.190 --> 00:00:45.070 align:middle line:90% every society is corrupt. 00:00:45.070 --> 00:00:47.320 align:middle line:84% And I think that's very debilitating 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:51.610 align:middle line:84% and I think it keeps them from really latching 00:00:51.610 --> 00:00:55.750 align:middle line:84% on to what I think are very important and valuable 00:00:55.750 --> 00:00:59.800 align:middle line:84% ideas, ideas that I consider are extremely pragmatic. 00:00:59.800 --> 00:01:01.870 align:middle line:90% I mean, I'm an engineer. 00:01:01.870 --> 00:01:05.319 align:middle line:84% And I think the whole question of ethics and values 00:01:05.319 --> 00:01:09.650 align:middle line:84% is an extremely pragmatic set of tools. 00:01:09.650 --> 00:01:14.740 align:middle line:84% And so that's why I started out saying don't be a cynic. 00:01:14.740 --> 00:01:18.970 align:middle line:84% Be a person for whom the glass is half full 00:01:18.970 --> 00:01:23.110 align:middle line:84% and always try to be the person who 00:01:23.110 --> 00:01:27.160 align:middle line:84% urges on your friends, your organization, your society, 00:01:27.160 --> 00:01:29.710 align:middle line:90% to higher goals. 00:01:29.710 --> 00:01:32.500 align:middle line:84% Because again, in the end, that's pragmatic. 00:01:32.500 --> 00:01:34.590 align:middle line:84% All we have to do is look around the world 00:01:34.590 --> 00:01:40.840 align:middle line:84% and see the usefulness of these ideas that we're talking about. 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:43.710 align:middle line:84% So the other three ideas I want to talk about 00:01:43.710 --> 00:01:49.660 align:middle line:84% are individual values, professional values, 00:01:49.660 --> 00:01:52.900 align:middle line:90% and institutional values. 00:01:52.900 --> 00:01:55.020 align:middle line:84% Now, to talk about individual values, 00:01:55.020 --> 00:01:58.500 align:middle line:84% I brought along the United States Air Force Little Blue 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:01.390 align:middle line:90% Book on core values. 00:02:01.390 --> 00:02:05.560 align:middle line:84% When I was Secretary of the Air Force, I really felt the need-- 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:08.080 align:middle line:90% and it was not an original idea. 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:12.020 align:middle line:84% I was getting this from people in the Air Force 00:02:12.020 --> 00:02:18.040 align:middle line:84% that what the Air Force needed was a fundamental statement 00:02:18.040 --> 00:02:21.020 align:middle line:84% of core values so that people could 00:02:21.020 --> 00:02:29.170 align:middle line:84% internalize the values that they and their fellow hold. 00:02:29.170 --> 00:02:32.670 align:middle line:84% I saw it as, actually, a psychic reward. 00:02:32.670 --> 00:02:34.820 align:middle line:84% Yeah, we couldn't give them money, 00:02:34.820 --> 00:02:37.220 align:middle line:84% but we could give them core values. 00:02:37.220 --> 00:02:40.340 align:middle line:84% And think about it-- what we were doing 00:02:40.340 --> 00:02:44.330 align:middle line:84% is telling them how good they were, 00:02:44.330 --> 00:02:47.210 align:middle line:84% not to mention the fact that this is a very pragmatic thing 00:02:47.210 --> 00:02:50.210 align:middle line:90% to do from all sorts of reasons. 00:02:50.210 --> 00:02:55.280 align:middle line:84% It builds trust-- the guy working next to you shares 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:57.500 align:middle line:90% the same values. 00:02:57.500 --> 00:02:59.690 align:middle line:84% I can't tell you the number of times-- well, 00:02:59.690 --> 00:03:02.000 align:middle line:84% I mean, an organization like the Air Force 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:05.750 align:middle line:84% that espouses high values is under the microscope 00:03:05.750 --> 00:03:07.130 align:middle line:90% of the media. 00:03:07.130 --> 00:03:10.580 align:middle line:84% And all you have to do is just move a little bit 00:03:10.580 --> 00:03:13.280 align:middle line:84% in a direction that probably most institutions 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:15.230 align:middle line:84% would get away with in our society, 00:03:15.230 --> 00:03:17.310 align:middle line:90% and all hell breaks loose. 00:03:17.310 --> 00:03:19.140 align:middle line:90% And that's fine. 00:03:19.140 --> 00:03:21.000 align:middle line:90% We espouse high values. 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:24.900 align:middle line:84% And when we let them down, let the people down, 00:03:24.900 --> 00:03:25.980 align:middle line:90% we get hammered. 00:03:25.980 --> 00:03:28.410 align:middle line:84% And I never had a problem with that. 00:03:28.410 --> 00:03:33.510 align:middle line:84% I thought that we needed to explain ourselves and let 00:03:33.510 --> 00:03:35.320 align:middle line:90% the chips fall where they may. 00:03:35.320 --> 00:03:41.570 align:middle line:84% So anyway, we established a program of core values. 00:03:41.570 --> 00:03:43.760 align:middle line:84% And I'll just tell you what those values are. 00:03:43.760 --> 00:03:46.140 align:middle line:84% I don't believe there's a unique set of core values, 00:03:46.140 --> 00:03:48.860 align:middle line:84% but there's a lot of overlap and a lot of commonality. 00:03:48.860 --> 00:03:51.740 align:middle line:84% And the core values of the Air Force 00:03:51.740 --> 00:03:56.740 align:middle line:84% are integrity first, service before self, 00:03:56.740 --> 00:03:59.140 align:middle line:90% and excellence in all you do. 00:03:59.140 --> 00:04:00.160 align:middle line:90% That works for me. 00:04:00.160 --> 00:04:02.800 align:middle line:90% 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:06.340 align:middle line:84% And I believe those values also work at MIT. 00:04:06.340 --> 00:04:08.260 align:middle line:84% I think those are also the MIT values. 00:04:08.260 --> 00:04:10.930 align:middle line:90% 00:04:10.930 --> 00:04:14.410 align:middle line:84% The phrase, service before self, has a little different meaning 00:04:14.410 --> 00:04:17.050 align:middle line:84% in a military organization because it 00:04:17.050 --> 00:04:19.660 align:middle line:84% means that you could put your life on the line, 00:04:19.660 --> 00:04:22.690 align:middle line:84% that you would be expected to put your life on the line. 00:04:22.690 --> 00:04:26.380 align:middle line:84% That's what service really means in a military organization. 00:04:26.380 --> 00:04:29.470 align:middle line:84% I think, at an institution like MIT, 00:04:29.470 --> 00:04:31.750 align:middle line:90% we think of public service. 00:04:31.750 --> 00:04:35.440 align:middle line:84% We think of all the values that MIT brings to the table which 00:04:35.440 --> 00:04:36.880 align:middle line:90% serve the public-- 00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:42.040 align:middle line:84% making admissions to MIT possible for low-income people, 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:45.370 align:middle line:84% not evaluating people for financial aid 00:04:45.370 --> 00:04:49.150 align:middle line:84% on the basis of what score they got on the SAT, 00:04:49.150 --> 00:04:51.550 align:middle line:84% being willing to do certain kinds of research 00:04:51.550 --> 00:04:53.950 align:middle line:84% for the government even though it creates 00:04:53.950 --> 00:04:57.400 align:middle line:84% a level of difficulty that maybe we wouldn't want to be involved 00:04:57.400 --> 00:04:59.230 align:middle line:84% in, but we've done it since World War II 00:04:59.230 --> 00:05:01.190 align:middle line:84% and it's been an important part of what we do. 00:05:01.190 --> 00:05:06.370 align:middle line:84% So the public service part is just really very much 00:05:06.370 --> 00:05:08.500 align:middle line:90% front and center at MIT. 00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:10.270 align:middle line:84% And obviously excellence, but I need 00:05:10.270 --> 00:05:11.560 align:middle line:90% say no more about excellence. 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:17.350 align:middle line:84% So I'm going to pass this around, and as I understand it, 00:05:17.350 --> 00:05:19.150 align:middle line:84% everybody gets this Little Blue Book 00:05:19.150 --> 00:05:25.490 align:middle line:84% when they get into the Air Force either as an enlisted person 00:05:25.490 --> 00:05:27.800 align:middle line:90% or as an officer. 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:29.780 align:middle line:84% And I actually don't know whether you get it 00:05:29.780 --> 00:05:30.633 align:middle line:90% if you're in ROTC. 00:05:30.633 --> 00:05:33.050 align:middle line:84% I actually have to check that out with the commander here. 00:05:33.050 --> 00:05:39.020 align:middle line:84% But I think the basic idea is that that is what we-- 00:05:39.020 --> 00:05:42.890 align:middle line:84% And when I go to a briefing of Air Force officers, 00:05:42.890 --> 00:05:46.940 align:middle line:84% they may be talking about, how do you connect a satellite up? 00:05:46.940 --> 00:05:50.430 align:middle line:84% Down at the bottom, on the master slide, 00:05:50.430 --> 00:05:55.600 align:middle line:84% it says integrity, service before self, and excellence. 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:57.157 align:middle line:90% It has nothing to do-- 00:05:57.157 --> 00:05:58.990 align:middle line:84% well, sort of-- with organizing a satellite, 00:05:58.990 --> 00:06:00.580 align:middle line:84% how you put it together, but it is 00:06:00.580 --> 00:06:02.830 align:middle line:84% a statement about the Air Force and 00:06:02.830 --> 00:06:05.290 align:middle line:90% about their public commitment. 00:06:05.290 --> 00:06:07.420 align:middle line:84% And most of the time, the people in the room 00:06:07.420 --> 00:06:10.730 align:middle line:84% have no idea that I had anything to do with this. 00:06:10.730 --> 00:06:13.525 align:middle line:84% So they're lecturing me on core values 00:06:13.525 --> 00:06:14.650 align:middle line:90% and how important they are. 00:06:14.650 --> 00:06:17.350 align:middle line:90% And I say, just wonderful. 00:06:17.350 --> 00:06:18.430 align:middle line:90% How did this happen? 00:06:18.430 --> 00:06:20.200 align:middle line:90% It's like, never say anything. 00:06:20.200 --> 00:06:23.890 align:middle line:90% OK, so I think that's basic. 00:06:23.890 --> 00:06:25.270 align:middle line:90% That's core. 00:06:25.270 --> 00:06:28.630 align:middle line:90% That's where we all begin. 00:06:28.630 --> 00:06:30.880 align:middle line:84% Then the other thing that I wanted to talk about 00:06:30.880 --> 00:06:33.578 align:middle line:90% are professional values. 00:06:33.578 --> 00:06:35.620 align:middle line:84% And I think that's probably a subject that you've 00:06:35.620 --> 00:06:37.090 align:middle line:90% spent a lot of time at. 00:06:37.090 --> 00:06:42.260 align:middle line:84% But what I would say is that integrity 00:06:42.260 --> 00:06:46.210 align:middle line:84% is basic to the scientific and engineering profession. 00:06:46.210 --> 00:06:51.010 align:middle line:84% And I brought along the report of a committee that I chaired. 00:06:51.010 --> 00:06:54.610 align:middle line:84% And it's called Fostering Academic Integrity. 00:06:54.610 --> 00:07:02.380 align:middle line:84% And the year was 1992, actually before I went to the Pentagon. 00:07:02.380 --> 00:07:05.110 align:middle line:84% These were the years of controversy 00:07:05.110 --> 00:07:09.070 align:middle line:84% over allegations of scientific misconduct in our nation's 00:07:09.070 --> 00:07:09.940 align:middle line:90% universities. 00:07:09.940 --> 00:07:12.070 align:middle line:84% And we had some major problems here 00:07:12.070 --> 00:07:15.310 align:middle line:84% at MIT involving David Baltimore and charges 00:07:15.310 --> 00:07:20.320 align:middle line:84% that data by one of his coauthors had been falsified. 00:07:20.320 --> 00:07:24.900 align:middle line:84% It literally took 20 years to unscramble that. 00:07:24.900 --> 00:07:26.980 align:middle line:84% And he paid an enormous price for it. 00:07:26.980 --> 00:07:32.050 align:middle line:84% And MIT paid an enormous price for, I would say, 00:07:32.050 --> 00:07:35.560 align:middle line:84% brushing it off fairly early in the game, saying, 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:36.760 align:middle line:90% oh, well, I know David. 00:07:36.760 --> 00:07:39.700 align:middle line:84% He wouldn't be responsible for anything like that. 00:07:39.700 --> 00:07:41.200 align:middle line:84% And in fact, in the end, he wasn't. 00:07:41.200 --> 00:07:45.910 align:middle line:84% But not taking the allegations seriously-- 00:07:45.910 --> 00:07:50.740 align:middle line:90% Congress went into high gear. 00:07:50.740 --> 00:07:55.740 align:middle line:84% David testified in front of the Dingell Committee. 00:07:55.740 --> 00:07:58.230 align:middle line:84% Universities were-- you're under the gun. 00:07:58.230 --> 00:08:01.230 align:middle line:84% Federal agencies were instituting 00:08:01.230 --> 00:08:05.760 align:middle line:84% policies with respect to issues of academic integrity. 00:08:05.760 --> 00:08:09.300 align:middle line:84% I think we had always taken the view that science 00:08:09.300 --> 00:08:11.820 align:middle line:90% was sort of self-checking. 00:08:11.820 --> 00:08:14.850 align:middle line:84% And I believe that science is self-checking. 00:08:14.850 --> 00:08:18.280 align:middle line:84% And so that was kind of the stance in the community. 00:08:18.280 --> 00:08:21.510 align:middle line:84% But I think what we learned from the government 00:08:21.510 --> 00:08:26.610 align:middle line:84% in this thing is that we have to develop a process that 00:08:26.610 --> 00:08:30.390 align:middle line:84% takes these initial allegations seriously even though we 00:08:30.390 --> 00:08:32.850 align:middle line:84% believe that, ultimately, it is self-checking. 00:08:32.850 --> 00:08:37.230 align:middle line:84% And you know, you saw it in the case of the Korean example 00:08:37.230 --> 00:08:39.270 align:middle line:90% of cloning. 00:08:39.270 --> 00:08:42.809 align:middle line:84% And it happens here at MIT, and it works. 00:08:42.809 --> 00:08:43.919 align:middle line:90% We do, in fact-- 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.670 align:middle line:84% But the National Academy set up a committee 00:08:47.670 --> 00:08:49.080 align:middle line:90% on academic integrity. 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:51.030 align:middle line:84% I was a member of that committee. 00:08:51.030 --> 00:08:53.820 align:middle line:84% MIT set up a committee on academic integrity 00:08:53.820 --> 00:08:56.110 align:middle line:90% and asked me to chair it. 00:08:56.110 --> 00:08:58.150 align:middle line:90% This is a characteristic of MIT. 00:08:58.150 --> 00:09:00.710 align:middle line:90% We tend to get in early. 00:09:00.710 --> 00:09:04.930 align:middle line:84% So MIT finished their report in time for it 00:09:04.930 --> 00:09:08.260 align:middle line:84% to be an appendix in the National Academy of Sciences 00:09:08.260 --> 00:09:12.800 align:middle line:84% report, which I think gave us kind of extra visibility, 00:09:12.800 --> 00:09:14.240 align:middle line:90% extra prominence. 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:20.610 align:middle line:84% And I just think it was an opportunity for us 00:09:20.610 --> 00:09:26.310 align:middle line:84% to make this not only statement at MIT, but very visible. 00:09:26.310 --> 00:09:29.970 align:middle line:84% In academic integrity, the key words-- and I 00:09:29.970 --> 00:09:33.990 align:middle line:84% hope I get them right-- are falsification, fabrication, 00:09:33.990 --> 00:09:35.160 align:middle line:90% and plagiarism. 00:09:35.160 --> 00:09:38.070 align:middle line:84% It is those three words which are 00:09:38.070 --> 00:09:41.820 align:middle line:84% the technical terms associated with academic integrity. 00:09:41.820 --> 00:09:44.190 align:middle line:84% And let me pass this report around. 00:09:44.190 --> 00:09:46.695 align:middle line:84% This is, again, another very famous document. 00:09:46.695 --> 00:09:53.980 align:middle line:90% 00:09:53.980 --> 00:09:56.380 align:middle line:84% Now, and also that's on the MIT website. 00:09:56.380 --> 00:10:00.685 align:middle line:84% And in fact, we had an incident this year, I think, where-- 00:10:00.685 --> 00:10:02.660 align:middle line:84% I'm trying to remember the details. 00:10:02.660 --> 00:10:05.920 align:middle line:84% I think a graduate student came forward and made an allegation 00:10:05.920 --> 00:10:08.320 align:middle line:90% against his professor. 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:10.640 align:middle line:90% I think that's what it was. 00:10:10.640 --> 00:10:12.070 align:middle line:84% And so there was an investigation 00:10:12.070 --> 00:10:16.270 align:middle line:84% along the lines of the procedures laid out. 00:10:16.270 --> 00:10:17.680 align:middle line:90% I mean, it's confidential. 00:10:17.680 --> 00:10:20.380 align:middle line:84% There's no assumption of guilt. It's arm's length. 00:10:20.380 --> 00:10:21.700 align:middle line:90% It's two stages. 00:10:21.700 --> 00:10:25.810 align:middle line:84% It's very, very careful to protect the rights of everybody 00:10:25.810 --> 00:10:27.670 align:middle line:84% and the confidentiality of everybody, 00:10:27.670 --> 00:10:30.760 align:middle line:84% but to sort of get on with the process 00:10:30.760 --> 00:10:33.580 align:middle line:84% to determine whether there is an issue that 00:10:33.580 --> 00:10:36.790 align:middle line:90% does not meet MIT standards. 00:10:36.790 --> 00:10:41.060 align:middle line:90% So that's an important set. 00:10:41.060 --> 00:10:47.570 align:middle line:84% And I would characterize that as professional values. 00:10:47.570 --> 00:10:52.580 align:middle line:84% And a similar set of values is involved in engineering. 00:10:52.580 --> 00:10:55.500 align:middle line:90% Engineering is more complex. 00:10:55.500 --> 00:10:58.990 align:middle line:84% The responsibilities to the public 00:10:58.990 --> 00:11:02.680 align:middle line:84% are more complex than the responsibilities of, say, 00:11:02.680 --> 00:11:04.720 align:middle line:84% an individual scientist in their lab, 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:07.540 align:middle line:84% but they are no less compelling and important. 00:11:07.540 --> 00:11:11.740 align:middle line:84% And I know you talked about the Challenger. 00:11:11.740 --> 00:11:15.070 align:middle line:84% I guess all of that I was on the Columbia Accident Investigation 00:11:15.070 --> 00:11:16.960 align:middle line:90% Board. 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:19.090 align:middle line:84% And sometimes, as I reflect on the difference 00:11:19.090 --> 00:11:25.540 align:middle line:84% between those two situations, it seems to me, in the Challenger 00:11:25.540 --> 00:11:34.420 align:middle line:84% investigation, the behavior with individuals was more prominent. 00:11:34.420 --> 00:11:35.950 align:middle line:84% In other words, I think we all know 00:11:35.950 --> 00:11:40.930 align:middle line:84% the story of Roger Boisjoly, an individual raising 00:11:40.930 --> 00:11:45.090 align:middle line:90% issues against an organization. 00:11:45.090 --> 00:11:46.830 align:middle line:84% I think, in the case of the Columbia, 00:11:46.830 --> 00:11:49.120 align:middle line:90% it was almost reversed. 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:51.390 align:middle line:84% It was a band of engineers who were 00:11:51.390 --> 00:11:53.460 align:middle line:90% attempting to raise issues. 00:11:53.460 --> 00:11:57.570 align:middle line:84% And these were tamped down by individual people 00:11:57.570 --> 00:12:01.960 align:middle line:84% in the organization at management level. 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:04.960 align:middle line:84% And so, in some sense, the situation was a little reversed 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:09.560 align:middle line:84% but the issue is obviously no less compelling. 00:12:09.560 --> 00:12:14.330 align:middle line:84% And I think we made a number of recommendations 00:12:14.330 --> 00:12:17.360 align:middle line:84% of an organizational and cultural sort 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:20.720 align:middle line:84% that I think had great impact and are still 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:26.740 align:middle line:84% having great impact on the organization. 00:12:26.740 --> 00:12:29.070 align:middle line:90% So that's another theme. 00:12:29.070 --> 00:12:30.900 align:middle line:84% And obviously, for people at MIT, 00:12:30.900 --> 00:12:33.090 align:middle line:84% the whole question of engineering and professional 00:12:33.090 --> 00:12:37.450 align:middle line:84% ethics, scientific ethics, are just extremely important. 00:12:37.450 --> 00:12:41.725 align:middle line:84% And that's why I'm glad you're doing what you're doing. 00:12:41.725 --> 00:12:43.350 align:middle line:84% So I'll just pass this around and don't 00:12:43.350 --> 00:12:44.370 align:middle line:90% expect you to read it. 00:12:44.370 --> 00:12:47.160 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] But if you look at the table of contents, 00:12:47.160 --> 00:12:50.820 align:middle line:84% I think you'll see that, in addition to talking about what 00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:55.770 align:middle line:84% broke, we also had chapters that dealt 00:12:55.770 --> 00:13:01.110 align:middle line:84% with organizational culture, how do you develop a safety 00:13:01.110 --> 00:13:04.710 align:middle line:84% culture in a large organization like that, 00:13:04.710 --> 00:13:08.340 align:middle line:84% and what were our recommendations for doing that. 00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:11.030 align:middle line:90% 00:13:11.030 --> 00:13:16.580 align:middle line:84% OK, so that's kind of that topic. 00:13:16.580 --> 00:13:18.620 align:middle line:84% I think the third thing I wanted to talk about 00:13:18.620 --> 00:13:22.430 align:middle line:84% was what I would call institutional ethics. 00:13:22.430 --> 00:13:24.500 align:middle line:84% And I brought a couple of things along. 00:13:24.500 --> 00:13:27.330 align:middle line:90% 00:13:27.330 --> 00:13:32.810 align:middle line:84% This is a report-- again, I do a lot of committee chairing-- 00:13:32.810 --> 00:13:38.070 align:middle line:84% this is a report that deals with research at MIT 00:13:38.070 --> 00:13:41.760 align:middle line:84% and what are our policies with respect 00:13:41.760 --> 00:13:45.620 align:middle line:84% to accepting money from the government 00:13:45.620 --> 00:13:47.930 align:middle line:90% and what are our values. 00:13:47.930 --> 00:13:50.850 align:middle line:90% And these are complex issues. 00:13:50.850 --> 00:13:53.510 align:middle line:84% But I would summarize the report in this way. 00:13:53.510 --> 00:13:57.080 align:middle line:84% And MIT, again, we were the first to publish. 00:13:57.080 --> 00:13:59.420 align:middle line:84% There is no other university that 00:13:59.420 --> 00:14:04.190 align:middle line:84% has published a report like this certainly as quickly as we did. 00:14:04.190 --> 00:14:06.650 align:middle line:90% I mean, we were out of the box-- 00:14:06.650 --> 00:14:09.830 align:middle line:84% I mean, obviously a lot of this was driven by 9/11. 00:14:09.830 --> 00:14:12.170 align:middle line:84% And we were out of the box in January 00:14:12.170 --> 00:14:15.140 align:middle line:84% and we had the report done by May. 00:14:15.140 --> 00:14:19.020 align:middle line:90% And it's widely publicized. 00:14:19.020 --> 00:14:19.970 align:middle line:90% I love the title. 00:14:19.970 --> 00:14:22.220 align:middle line:84% It came to me while I was riding my bike. 00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:26.210 align:middle line:84% The title of the report is In the Public Interest. 00:14:26.210 --> 00:14:29.920 align:middle line:84% And I think that says a lot about what a place like MIT 00:14:29.920 --> 00:14:30.920 align:middle line:90% is trying to do. 00:14:30.920 --> 00:14:34.930 align:middle line:84% But I think what we recommended-- it's a big, 00:14:34.930 --> 00:14:37.360 align:middle line:84% long report and there are lots of complexities to it-- 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:42.050 align:middle line:84% but something like this, that everything on our campus should 00:14:42.050 --> 00:14:49.330 align:middle line:84% be open to every student and we don't want any material 00:14:49.330 --> 00:14:53.250 align:middle line:84% on our campus that cannot be shared. 00:14:53.250 --> 00:14:55.290 align:middle line:84% Now, it seems fairly straightforward, 00:14:55.290 --> 00:14:58.110 align:middle line:84% but with people who do government contracts-- oh, 00:14:58.110 --> 00:15:02.700 align:middle line:84% and also that includes no restrictions on publication, 00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:04.320 align:middle line:84% that our faculty and students should 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:08.662 align:middle line:84% be able to publish their research without restrictions. 00:15:08.662 --> 00:15:10.120 align:middle line:84% That sounds fairly straightforward, 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:13.690 align:middle line:84% but there are lots of forces who would want to change that. 00:15:13.690 --> 00:15:17.340 align:middle line:84% And I can just give you some examples. 00:15:17.340 --> 00:15:19.160 align:middle line:84% For example, in the federal government, 00:15:19.160 --> 00:15:21.680 align:middle line:84% there's this category of information, called 00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:24.373 align:middle line:90% sensitive but unclassified. 00:15:24.373 --> 00:15:25.790 align:middle line:84% One of the problems is that nobody 00:15:25.790 --> 00:15:29.730 align:middle line:90% has any idea what that means. 00:15:29.730 --> 00:15:32.750 align:middle line:84% There are 35 different definitions of this. 00:15:32.750 --> 00:15:35.840 align:middle line:84% In fact, I just got back from the National Academy of Science 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:37.560 align:middle line:90% and Law panel last week. 00:15:37.560 --> 00:15:39.590 align:middle line:90% And that was a big issue. 00:15:39.590 --> 00:15:41.800 align:middle line:84% We have a committee set up on it. 00:15:41.800 --> 00:15:43.550 align:middle line:84% We're trying to work with federal agencies 00:15:43.550 --> 00:15:46.385 align:middle line:84% to really understand what in the world 00:15:46.385 --> 00:15:47.510 align:middle line:90% are you guys worried about. 00:15:47.510 --> 00:15:54.220 align:middle line:84% I mean, can we help you without having just lay all over us? 00:15:54.220 --> 00:15:57.640 align:middle line:84% The problem is even worse because a lot of the decisions 00:15:57.640 --> 00:15:59.770 align:middle line:84% are made fairly low in the agency. 00:15:59.770 --> 00:16:03.370 align:middle line:84% And but anyway, MIT says, we will not 00:16:03.370 --> 00:16:06.700 align:middle line:84% accept a contract that contains a clause relating 00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:08.970 align:middle line:90% to this issue. 00:16:08.970 --> 00:16:14.210 align:middle line:84% And it's just a flat prohibition against this. 00:16:14.210 --> 00:16:16.200 align:middle line:84% That is not true at all universities. 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.410 align:middle line:84% Other universities, it's kind of a slippery slope 00:16:18.410 --> 00:16:22.330 align:middle line:90% that they do this. 00:16:22.330 --> 00:16:24.490 align:middle line:90% Restrictions on publications-- 00:16:24.490 --> 00:16:29.220 align:middle line:84% I mean, we felt that it was extremely important that we not 00:16:29.220 --> 00:16:30.970 align:middle line:84% put restrictions on the federal government 00:16:30.970 --> 00:16:34.140 align:middle line:84% that we were not willing to put on industry. 00:16:34.140 --> 00:16:36.770 align:middle line:84% And I mean, that would be a conflict 00:16:36.770 --> 00:16:38.070 align:middle line:90% of interest on our part. 00:16:38.070 --> 00:16:41.410 align:middle line:84% So we said, OK, in industry, when 00:16:41.410 --> 00:16:43.270 align:middle line:84% we do contracting with industry, we 00:16:43.270 --> 00:16:47.240 align:middle line:84% will allow them to review a paper for 30 days, 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:50.380 align:middle line:84% 60 days, some number like that, to see 00:16:50.380 --> 00:16:55.680 align:middle line:84% whether there are patentable inventions within this paper. 00:16:55.680 --> 00:17:01.250 align:middle line:84% But we control the time and we control the decision. 00:17:01.250 --> 00:17:04.910 align:middle line:84% We say, OK, well, let us know your concerns. 00:17:04.910 --> 00:17:08.450 align:middle line:84% And at the end of 60 days, we will make a decision 00:17:08.450 --> 00:17:10.300 align:middle line:84% as to whether your concerns are valid. 00:17:10.300 --> 00:17:12.050 align:middle line:84% When you work with the federal government, 00:17:12.050 --> 00:17:13.560 align:middle line:90% it's exactly the opposite. 00:17:13.560 --> 00:17:16.800 align:middle line:84% They control the time and they control the output. 00:17:16.800 --> 00:17:22.109 align:middle line:84% And there have been many examples where it has seriously 00:17:22.109 --> 00:17:26.770 align:middle line:84% impacted the career of a student or a faculty member because 00:17:26.770 --> 00:17:27.680 align:middle line:90% of delays. 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:31.570 align:middle line:84% Now, there are always issues that have to be fought in this. 00:17:31.570 --> 00:17:34.150 align:middle line:84% There are certain marching rights 00:17:34.150 --> 00:17:38.170 align:middle line:84% for extremely serious things that need to be classified. 00:17:38.170 --> 00:17:40.760 align:middle line:90% But these are the rare events. 00:17:40.760 --> 00:17:43.730 align:middle line:90% So this is a less than 1%. 00:17:43.730 --> 00:17:47.810 align:middle line:84% So I think we've been very open, very public, and very firm 00:17:47.810 --> 00:17:50.180 align:middle line:90% about these issues. 00:17:50.180 --> 00:17:55.780 align:middle line:84% There are issues having to do with contract monitors. 00:17:55.780 --> 00:17:57.340 align:middle line:90% And these are more-- 00:17:57.340 --> 00:18:00.040 align:middle line:84% this is more gray, not from the point of view of MIT, 00:18:00.040 --> 00:18:03.760 align:middle line:84% but because we don't always have visibility into these issues. 00:18:03.760 --> 00:18:05.290 align:middle line:84% There are some contract monitors who 00:18:05.290 --> 00:18:07.600 align:middle line:84% say, well, we would prefer if you 00:18:07.600 --> 00:18:12.250 align:middle line:84% didn't hire any international graduate students on this. 00:18:12.250 --> 00:18:15.820 align:middle line:84% And we have no way of knowing how MIT faculty respond 00:18:15.820 --> 00:18:22.620 align:middle line:84% to that, but it certainly does not line up with MIT's policy. 00:18:22.620 --> 00:18:29.110 align:middle line:84% On the other hand, MIT is very active 00:18:29.110 --> 00:18:30.520 align:middle line:84% working in the federal government 00:18:30.520 --> 00:18:34.030 align:middle line:84% to ensure that there are no unreasonable restrictions 00:18:34.030 --> 00:18:36.640 align:middle line:84% on visas for international students. 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:40.570 align:middle line:84% I mean, again, this is all part of the same picture. 00:18:40.570 --> 00:18:44.110 align:middle line:84% But on the other hand, what this report talks about 00:18:44.110 --> 00:18:47.050 align:middle line:84% is the important public service dimension 00:18:47.050 --> 00:18:51.910 align:middle line:84% that MIT performs when it engages in classified research. 00:18:51.910 --> 00:18:57.100 align:middle line:84% And if we actually recommend that MIT faculty get security 00:18:57.100 --> 00:19:01.960 align:middle line:84% clearances so they can serve on federal advisory committees 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:05.020 align:middle line:84% that evaluate the quality of research-- 00:19:05.020 --> 00:19:10.960 align:middle line:84% because research that is done behind a black door 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:14.290 align:middle line:84% is not necessarily a very high quality. 00:19:14.290 --> 00:19:18.490 align:middle line:84% So how do we ensure that the nation gets its money's worth 00:19:18.490 --> 00:19:21.280 align:middle line:90% from classified research? 00:19:21.280 --> 00:19:24.520 align:middle line:84% One answer to that is to have MIT faculty involved. 00:19:24.520 --> 00:19:26.470 align:middle line:84% And we have many faculty involved 00:19:26.470 --> 00:19:33.460 align:middle line:84% in government advisory boards, special report, review, 00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:37.030 align:middle line:84% program evaluation, plus Lincoln Lab, 00:19:37.030 --> 00:19:42.300 align:middle line:84% which we see Lincoln as a public service, 00:19:42.300 --> 00:19:45.520 align:middle line:84% that this gives the Defense Department 00:19:45.520 --> 00:19:48.340 align:middle line:84% access to excellent people with very high standards 00:19:48.340 --> 00:19:49.037 align:middle line:90% of integrity. 00:19:49.037 --> 00:19:51.370 align:middle line:84% And of course you're probably all familiar with the flap 00:19:51.370 --> 00:19:52.510 align:middle line:90% that's going on now. 00:19:52.510 --> 00:19:57.790 align:middle line:84% And MIT is absolutely determined to carry that 00:19:57.790 --> 00:20:02.210 align:middle line:84% through to the end, to get to the bottom of allegations, 00:20:02.210 --> 00:20:05.600 align:middle line:84% again, of scientific misconduct, actually using that framework 00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:09.380 align:middle line:84% that is laid out in that report to determine 00:20:09.380 --> 00:20:11.270 align:middle line:90% the truth of those allegations. 00:20:11.270 --> 00:20:16.980 align:middle line:84% So that's one example of institutional values. 00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:20.030 align:middle line:84% The other one, I just happened to get this. 00:20:20.030 --> 00:20:22.272 align:middle line:90% I'm on a corporate board. 00:20:22.272 --> 00:20:25.030 align:middle line:84% And this corporation builds rocket engines, 00:20:25.030 --> 00:20:27.980 align:middle line:90% my favorite thing. 00:20:27.980 --> 00:20:31.360 align:middle line:84% And anybody who works for the federal government 00:20:31.360 --> 00:20:35.780 align:middle line:84% has to really maintain a very high standard of integrity. 00:20:35.780 --> 00:20:40.100 align:middle line:84% And the costs are enormous for failing in this responsibility. 00:20:40.100 --> 00:20:42.550 align:middle line:84% I can just give you a little example. 00:20:42.550 --> 00:20:44.900 align:middle line:84% If you follow aerospace, then you 00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:49.367 align:middle line:84% would know that a Boeing senior executive-- 00:20:49.367 --> 00:20:51.200 align:middle line:84% I think he was higher than a vice president, 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.240 align:middle line:84% might have been president of the division-- 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:58.490 align:middle line:84% a Boeing senior executives made an inappropriate job offer 00:20:58.490 --> 00:21:04.090 align:middle line:84% to a high official in the Defense Department. 00:21:04.090 --> 00:21:11.290 align:middle line:84% And it cost Boeing $5 billion and it landed this woman 00:21:11.290 --> 00:21:13.040 align:middle line:90% in jail for nine months. 00:21:13.040 --> 00:21:15.310 align:middle line:84% And I think it landed the senior executive in jail 00:21:15.310 --> 00:21:19.170 align:middle line:90% for six months, I think, yeah. 00:21:19.170 --> 00:21:23.880 align:middle line:84% So who was served by that behavior? 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:24.450 align:middle line:90% Nobody. 00:21:24.450 --> 00:21:25.310 align:middle line:90% Nobody was served. 00:21:25.310 --> 00:21:28.500 align:middle line:90% The company was not served. 00:21:28.500 --> 00:21:30.570 align:middle line:84% The individuals involved were not served. 00:21:30.570 --> 00:21:32.190 align:middle line:90% The nation was not served. 00:21:32.190 --> 00:21:35.820 align:middle line:84% The Air Force just landed on its backside. 00:21:35.820 --> 00:21:39.990 align:middle line:84% So I mean, when I say that I believe that values 00:21:39.990 --> 00:21:44.040 align:middle line:84% are pragmatic, it's that sort of thing I'm talking about, 00:21:44.040 --> 00:21:50.990 align:middle line:84% that, rightly so, the consequences for what one might 00:21:50.990 --> 00:21:55.070 align:middle line:84% be able to rationalize as reasonable behavior 00:21:55.070 --> 00:21:58.070 align:middle line:84% at some early stage in the process 00:21:58.070 --> 00:22:04.160 align:middle line:84% simply becomes extraordinary at some later stage. 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:08.850 align:middle line:84% This is a code of business conduct, which-- 00:22:08.850 --> 00:22:10.260 align:middle line:90% I was at the board meeting. 00:22:10.260 --> 00:22:12.990 align:middle line:90% And it just lays it all out-- 00:22:12.990 --> 00:22:15.480 align:middle line:84% business entertainment, timekeeping, 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:18.180 align:middle line:84% bribes and kickbacks, dealing with suppliers, 00:22:18.180 --> 00:22:21.630 align:middle line:84% use of company resources, conflict of interest, 00:22:21.630 --> 00:22:24.330 align:middle line:84% export control, political contributions, 00:22:24.330 --> 00:22:27.223 align:middle line:84% corporate citizenships, reporting. 00:22:27.223 --> 00:22:30.570 align:middle line:84% And they have a hotline that's anonymous. 00:22:30.570 --> 00:22:35.040 align:middle line:84% Any employee who has a concern about anything that they 00:22:35.040 --> 00:22:39.390 align:middle line:84% observe going on in the corporation calls the hotline, 00:22:39.390 --> 00:22:42.890 align:middle line:84% and the hotline goes directly to the board of directors 00:22:42.890 --> 00:22:46.730 align:middle line:84% and, I believe, the corporate governance committee. 00:22:46.730 --> 00:22:49.910 align:middle line:84% And the matter's taken very seriously and is reported. 00:22:49.910 --> 00:22:51.485 align:middle line:90% So and this is not unusual. 00:22:51.485 --> 00:22:54.560 align:middle line:84% It's just the one I happened to pick up last week when 00:22:54.560 --> 00:22:55.880 align:middle line:90% I was in California. 00:22:55.880 --> 00:23:00.560 align:middle line:90% So let me pass that out. 00:23:00.560 --> 00:23:04.220 align:middle line:84% Now, it may be true that, since the Defense Department has, 00:23:04.220 --> 00:23:06.560 align:middle line:84% in fact, a whole set of governing regulations, 00:23:06.560 --> 00:23:11.480 align:middle line:84% it may be that companies who do business with Defense-- 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:13.520 align:middle line:84% and maybe, more generally, the government-- 00:23:13.520 --> 00:23:16.280 align:middle line:84% I suspect that anybody who does business with the government 00:23:16.280 --> 00:23:21.110 align:middle line:84% has to be quite explicit about their corporate values 00:23:21.110 --> 00:23:25.680 align:middle line:84% because it is, in fact, required. 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:28.140 align:middle line:84% This kind of behavior is required. 00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:34.170 align:middle line:84% And if there's a slip-up, all hell breaks loose. 00:23:34.170 --> 00:23:36.120 align:middle line:84% It goes from bad to worse very quickly, 00:23:36.120 --> 00:23:40.410 align:middle line:84% and large amounts of resources are at stake, 00:23:40.410 --> 00:23:45.610 align:middle line:84% and people's individual careers are devastated. 00:23:45.610 --> 00:23:49.150 align:middle line:84% So anyway, that's all I planned to talk about. 00:23:49.150 --> 00:23:55.966 align:middle line:84% So I guess we could throw the field open for questions. 00:23:55.966 --> 00:23:58.330 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:23:58.330 --> 00:24:03.250 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Well, I'd like to ask a couple of questions, 00:24:03.250 --> 00:24:05.290 align:middle line:84% but I want to give priority to the students, 00:24:05.290 --> 00:24:07.470 align:middle line:84% but I want to start off with one. 00:24:07.470 --> 00:24:09.380 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: OK. 00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:15.790 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Back in 1986, I got a letter and a manuscript 00:24:15.790 --> 00:24:16.905 align:middle line:90% from Hans [INAUDIBLE]. 00:24:16.905 --> 00:24:17.780 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: Yeah. 00:24:17.780 --> 00:24:20.730 align:middle line:90% 00:24:20.730 --> 00:24:24.330 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Right after the Challenger [INAUDIBLE].. 00:24:24.330 --> 00:24:27.226 align:middle line:84% And he wrote to me in response to a news article 00:24:27.226 --> 00:24:29.840 align:middle line:84% I'd written in The Washington Post about [INAUDIBLE].. 00:24:29.840 --> 00:24:31.520 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: Right. 00:24:31.520 --> 00:24:33.320 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: And what he said in that letter 00:24:33.320 --> 00:24:39.650 align:middle line:84% was that he had the final authority at NASA 00:24:39.650 --> 00:24:45.140 align:middle line:90% to OK a shuttle flight. 00:24:45.140 --> 00:24:48.470 align:middle line:84% And he said that, in his years of experience, 00:24:48.470 --> 00:24:52.170 align:middle line:84% that every time he gave the OK to fly, 00:24:52.170 --> 00:24:56.570 align:middle line:84% it was over the objections of some engineers who said 00:24:56.570 --> 00:24:59.570 align:middle line:90% that it was going to explode. 00:24:59.570 --> 00:25:04.435 align:middle line:84% And he had the rationale that we'll never get to the moon 00:25:04.435 --> 00:25:08.680 align:middle line:84% or do the things we're supposed to do without risk. 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:10.690 align:middle line:84% I don't think it was really a risk issue, 00:25:10.690 --> 00:25:12.640 align:middle line:90% but I wanted to ask you. 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:15.580 align:middle line:84% I just want to know what kind of principle that sets. 00:25:15.580 --> 00:25:18.100 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: Right, I got it. 00:25:18.100 --> 00:25:20.305 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] No, I have the answer to that question. 00:25:20.305 --> 00:25:20.930 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: Go ahead. 00:25:20.930 --> 00:25:23.472 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Yeah, no, I have the answer to that question. 00:25:23.472 --> 00:25:28.840 align:middle line:84% Of course, I think one answer is that's why we need leadership. 00:25:28.840 --> 00:25:30.790 align:middle line:90% That's too simple an answer. 00:25:30.790 --> 00:25:35.890 align:middle line:84% I've served on a lot of what I would call a mission review 00:25:35.890 --> 00:25:37.510 align:middle line:90% boards. 00:25:37.510 --> 00:25:41.560 align:middle line:84% I did the mission review for the first flight of Boeing's Delta 00:25:41.560 --> 00:25:42.565 align:middle line:90% IV launch vehicle. 00:25:42.565 --> 00:25:45.760 align:middle line:90% 00:25:45.760 --> 00:25:50.170 align:middle line:84% I chaired what was called the Return to Flight. 00:25:50.170 --> 00:25:53.500 align:middle line:84% There was a time in our nation's history where-- 00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:56.750 align:middle line:84% I'm more on the launch vehicle side as opposed to NASA. 00:25:56.750 --> 00:25:58.000 align:middle line:90% I hadn't done a lot with NASA. 00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:01.090 align:middle line:84% But on the launch vehicle side, we went through a period 00:26:01.090 --> 00:26:06.280 align:middle line:84% where we lost something like four launch vehicles in a row 00:26:06.280 --> 00:26:09.780 align:middle line:84% from all sorts of ridiculous accidents, 00:26:09.780 --> 00:26:12.500 align:middle line:84% just failure to do certain things. 00:26:12.500 --> 00:26:15.970 align:middle line:84% And so we kind of shut everything down 00:26:15.970 --> 00:26:21.650 align:middle line:84% and we began looking across at processes. 00:26:21.650 --> 00:26:25.330 align:middle line:84% So what I would say in answer to that 00:26:25.330 --> 00:26:32.840 align:middle line:84% is that engineers must put their concerns in actionable form. 00:26:32.840 --> 00:26:36.280 align:middle line:84% Don't tell me what keeps you awake at night, 00:26:36.280 --> 00:26:39.760 align:middle line:90% tell me what you want me to do. 00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:42.640 align:middle line:84% And I actually looked at the Challenger thing 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:45.570 align:middle line:84% the other night, because there's a TV 00:26:45.570 --> 00:26:50.730 align:middle line:84% thing, one of those little old things on the History Channel. 00:26:50.730 --> 00:26:52.470 align:middle line:84% So I think the way to distinguish 00:26:52.470 --> 00:26:55.770 align:middle line:84% between the concerns of engineers 00:26:55.770 --> 00:26:58.890 align:middle line:90% that are just always there-- 00:26:58.890 --> 00:27:01.260 align:middle line:84% and sometimes I wish I could just take these guys, 00:27:01.260 --> 00:27:05.400 align:middle line:84% line them up, and shoot them, because they're 00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:12.430 align:middle line:84% just not giving me what I need in order to take the next step. 00:27:12.430 --> 00:27:17.280 align:middle line:84% It is not useful if you tell me you're worried. 00:27:17.280 --> 00:27:20.280 align:middle line:84% You've got to tell me what you want me to do. 00:27:20.280 --> 00:27:22.780 align:middle line:84% What tests do you want me to run? 00:27:22.780 --> 00:27:23.820 align:middle line:90% Why are you worried? 00:27:23.820 --> 00:27:24.960 align:middle line:90% What's the data? 00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:26.190 align:middle line:90% What's the analysis? 00:27:26.190 --> 00:27:27.900 align:middle line:90% What's the next step? 00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:31.620 align:middle line:84% How can I take the next step in order 00:27:31.620 --> 00:27:35.640 align:middle line:84% to understand whether I share your concern 00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:37.950 align:middle line:84% or I'm about to dismiss your concern. 00:27:37.950 --> 00:27:41.430 align:middle line:84% And it seems to me, in the case of Roger Boisjoly, 00:27:41.430 --> 00:27:44.370 align:middle line:90% he did all of those things. 00:27:44.370 --> 00:27:46.890 align:middle line:90% He had the data. 00:27:46.890 --> 00:27:50.700 align:middle line:84% The data, I think, validated his concern 00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:59.160 align:middle line:84% about opening the envelope in terms of external temperature. 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:04.620 align:middle line:84% He had the previous flight data, which indicated a concern. 00:28:04.620 --> 00:28:10.680 align:middle line:84% So I think he met my barrier for an engineer who 00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:12.990 align:middle line:90% should be taken seriously. 00:28:12.990 --> 00:28:15.240 align:middle line:84% He also had support from, I guess, 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:20.100 align:middle line:84% his counterpart-- slightly other part of the organization. 00:28:20.100 --> 00:28:24.090 align:middle line:84% But two of the major senior engineers, I think, 00:28:24.090 --> 00:28:28.630 align:middle line:84% expressed their concerns in an actionable form, 00:28:28.630 --> 00:28:30.610 align:middle line:84% which I believe needs to be taken seriously. 00:28:30.610 --> 00:28:32.850 align:middle line:90% So I think that's my threshold. 00:28:32.850 --> 00:28:35.700 align:middle line:84% And I've told that to engineers when 00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:40.170 align:middle line:84% I'm talking about these issues on the Columbia Accident 00:28:40.170 --> 00:28:43.210 align:middle line:84% Investigation Board and other things. 00:28:43.210 --> 00:28:45.144 align:middle line:90% So for me, that's the threshold. 00:28:45.144 --> 00:28:49.100 align:middle line:90% 00:28:49.100 --> 00:28:50.210 align:middle line:90% So that's one threshold. 00:28:50.210 --> 00:28:53.570 align:middle line:84% I think there's another threshold in what I would call 00:28:53.570 --> 00:29:00.410 align:middle line:84% the collective processes of whatever safety program 00:29:00.410 --> 00:29:01.670 align:middle line:90% an agency is using. 00:29:01.670 --> 00:29:06.110 align:middle line:84% And in the case of space, there are some really fundamental 00:29:06.110 --> 00:29:09.630 align:middle line:90% rules that you do not break. 00:29:09.630 --> 00:29:13.250 align:middle line:84% And one of those rules is test as you fly. 00:29:13.250 --> 00:29:15.600 align:middle line:90% Resolve anomalies. 00:29:15.600 --> 00:29:18.290 align:middle line:90% And those are the two rules. 00:29:18.290 --> 00:29:20.940 align:middle line:84% I think, in the case of Columbia, and maybe Challenger 00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:21.440 align:middle line:90% too-- 00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:23.900 align:middle line:84% I think there might have been a little bit of this-- 00:29:23.900 --> 00:29:26.630 align:middle line:84% is do not use a successful flight 00:29:26.630 --> 00:29:30.860 align:middle line:84% to expand the envelope of operations. 00:29:30.860 --> 00:29:35.360 align:middle line:84% When you start the program, you have an initial requirement. 00:29:35.360 --> 00:29:37.850 align:middle line:84% When something happens that goes outside, 00:29:37.850 --> 00:29:40.700 align:middle line:84% that busts that requirement, you do not 00:29:40.700 --> 00:29:44.610 align:middle line:84% use that as justification for expanding the envelope. 00:29:44.610 --> 00:29:51.370 align:middle line:84% And in the case of the Columbia, foam 00:29:51.370 --> 00:29:56.170 align:middle line:84% was coming off the shuttle from the beginning of the program. 00:29:56.170 --> 00:29:58.540 align:middle line:84% OK, you go back to the "test as you fly" rule. 00:29:58.540 --> 00:30:01.081 align:middle line:90% 00:30:01.081 --> 00:30:05.350 align:middle line:84% And that's kind of a cute play on words if you think about it. 00:30:05.350 --> 00:30:10.800 align:middle line:84% Test as you fly means you identify flight conditions, 00:30:10.800 --> 00:30:14.760 align:middle line:84% you test every component according 00:30:14.760 --> 00:30:18.530 align:middle line:84% to or exceeding those flight conditions. 00:30:18.530 --> 00:30:22.100 align:middle line:84% It does not mean you run the test as you fly, which is-- 00:30:22.100 --> 00:30:23.520 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:30:23.520 --> 00:30:25.900 align:middle line:90% --in some sense, the way NASA-- 00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:29.060 align:middle line:84% and it took me a long time to think a little bit 00:30:29.060 --> 00:30:32.750 align:middle line:84% about that play on words so that I was a little more careful 00:30:32.750 --> 00:30:34.200 align:middle line:90% saying test as you fly. 00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:38.510 align:middle line:84% But you know, the test that we ran in the Columbia Accident 00:30:38.510 --> 00:30:41.720 align:middle line:84% Investigation Board was to take a large chunk of foam, 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:44.750 align:middle line:84% put it in a foam gun, 800 feet per second, 00:30:44.750 --> 00:30:48.170 align:middle line:84% and blast it at the leading edge. 00:30:48.170 --> 00:30:50.720 align:middle line:84% Well, if you back up a little bit and say, 00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:52.430 align:middle line:84% now, the fundamental rule of space flight 00:30:52.430 --> 00:30:55.490 align:middle line:84% is test as you fly, once NASA determined 00:30:55.490 --> 00:30:57.230 align:middle line:84% that foam was coming off the shuttle, 00:30:57.230 --> 00:30:58.580 align:middle line:90% they should have run that test. 00:30:58.580 --> 00:31:01.340 align:middle line:84% They should have run it a long time ago. 00:31:01.340 --> 00:31:04.700 align:middle line:84% So I would say those are kind of the things, 00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:07.460 align:middle line:84% that the fundamental responsibility of engineers 00:31:07.460 --> 00:31:11.600 align:middle line:84% is to express their concern in a form that is actionable. 00:31:11.600 --> 00:31:13.430 align:middle line:90% That's a general rule. 00:31:13.430 --> 00:31:15.320 align:middle line:84% Then I would say the second rules have 00:31:15.320 --> 00:31:19.430 align:middle line:84% to do with a particular field or discipline 00:31:19.430 --> 00:31:22.010 align:middle line:84% that you're working in, but certainly in space, which 00:31:22.010 --> 00:31:25.070 align:middle line:84% is a very hostile environment, which, 00:31:25.070 --> 00:31:29.930 align:middle line:84% because of successful missions, has developed this set of rules 00:31:29.930 --> 00:31:35.540 align:middle line:84% about test as you fly and resolving anomalies. 00:31:35.540 --> 00:31:37.280 align:middle line:84% The specific thing about Columbia 00:31:37.280 --> 00:31:40.700 align:middle line:84% is that they had actually taken-- 00:31:40.700 --> 00:31:44.930 align:middle line:84% that particular anomaly had really become very serious 00:31:44.930 --> 00:31:48.560 align:middle line:84% and it had almost systematically happened. 00:31:48.560 --> 00:31:51.810 align:middle line:84% And they actually took it off the table 00:31:51.810 --> 00:31:54.290 align:middle line:90% and they put it in a category-- 00:31:54.290 --> 00:31:55.670 align:middle line:90% "we're working on that." 00:31:55.670 --> 00:31:58.790 align:middle line:84% So they actually paid less attention to it 00:31:58.790 --> 00:32:02.360 align:middle line:84% at the beginning of the Columbia mission assurance review 00:32:02.360 --> 00:32:04.310 align:middle line:84% than they had on some of the previous reviews, 00:32:04.310 --> 00:32:06.018 align:middle line:84% not that it would have made a difference. 00:32:06.018 --> 00:32:09.650 align:middle line:84% I think their fundamental process for getting to flight 00:32:09.650 --> 00:32:12.912 align:middle line:84% is broken and they need to re-examine that. 00:32:12.912 --> 00:32:16.420 align:middle line:84% And that's what we basically recommended to them. 00:32:16.420 --> 00:32:17.800 align:middle line:90% And hopefully that will happen. 00:32:17.800 --> 00:32:21.395 align:middle line:90% 00:32:21.395 --> 00:32:22.270 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: Questions? 00:32:22.270 --> 00:32:24.470 align:middle line:90% Comments? 00:32:24.470 --> 00:32:27.440 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I have a question about the In the Public 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:32.560 align:middle line:84% Interest [INAUDIBLE],, the policies on accepting 00:32:32.560 --> 00:32:34.210 align:middle line:90% federal funding for research. 00:32:34.210 --> 00:32:39.580 align:middle line:84% How are professors at MIT bound to those policies? 00:32:39.580 --> 00:32:43.520 align:middle line:84% Are they bound to accepting research 00:32:43.520 --> 00:32:44.520 align:middle line:90% according to the policy? 00:32:44.520 --> 00:32:48.060 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Well, first of all, 00:32:48.060 --> 00:32:51.300 align:middle line:84% I kind of want to turn your question around. 00:32:51.300 --> 00:32:55.440 align:middle line:84% MIT's policies will not let money come through the door. 00:32:55.440 --> 00:32:59.670 align:middle line:84% All the contracts that MIT has are with MIT, not 00:32:59.670 --> 00:33:01.710 align:middle line:90% individual faculty. 00:33:01.710 --> 00:33:03.720 align:middle line:84% So an individual faculty member might 00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:07.740 align:middle line:84% be willing to accept a contract that specifically said 00:33:07.740 --> 00:33:13.260 align:middle line:84% no international graduate students or you must 00:33:13.260 --> 00:33:17.320 align:middle line:90% obtain permission to publish. 00:33:17.320 --> 00:33:22.120 align:middle line:84% MIT would not allow such a contract to be signed. 00:33:22.120 --> 00:33:25.660 align:middle line:84% Now, I'm not saying there aren't under-the-table winks and nods, 00:33:25.660 --> 00:33:31.930 align:middle line:84% but these don't satisfy my definition of ethical behavior. 00:33:31.930 --> 00:33:33.610 align:middle line:84% So that's basically the way it's done, 00:33:33.610 --> 00:33:37.030 align:middle line:84% is that all contracts are with MIT. 00:33:37.030 --> 00:33:42.880 align:middle line:84% And that ensures this openness that we insist on, 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:46.120 align:middle line:84% open information in the classroom, open information-- 00:33:46.120 --> 00:33:48.700 align:middle line:84% freedom to publish and all of that. 00:33:48.700 --> 00:33:52.040 align:middle line:84% Those are the things that we think are really important. 00:33:52.040 --> 00:33:54.740 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: So then does that mean that there 00:33:54.740 --> 00:33:59.210 align:middle line:84% are no MIT contracts that include classified research? 00:33:59.210 --> 00:34:00.990 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: Not on campus. 00:34:00.990 --> 00:34:03.800 align:middle line:84% In fact, that's kind of, historically, very interesting, 00:34:03.800 --> 00:34:06.260 align:middle line:84% because we used to have contacts on campus that 00:34:06.260 --> 00:34:07.490 align:middle line:90% include classified research. 00:34:07.490 --> 00:34:10.580 align:middle line:90% And during the Vietnam unrest-- 00:34:10.580 --> 00:34:15.560 align:middle line:84% you were probably two at that point, if that-- 00:34:15.560 --> 00:34:19.250 align:middle line:84% we basically made a decision that we would not 00:34:19.250 --> 00:34:22.400 align:middle line:90% do classified research. 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.739 align:middle line:84% And when we got this committee together, 00:34:24.739 --> 00:34:28.520 align:middle line:84% because we had recommended that MIT faculty get clearances, 00:34:28.520 --> 00:34:30.949 align:middle line:84% and they do serve on government advisory boards, 00:34:30.949 --> 00:34:33.949 align:middle line:84% and they are in a position to oversee 00:34:33.949 --> 00:34:38.060 align:middle line:84% the quality of classified research, 00:34:38.060 --> 00:34:41.550 align:middle line:84% we gave some brief thought to thinking, well, 00:34:41.550 --> 00:34:44.750 align:middle line:84% should we have a reading room on campus 00:34:44.750 --> 00:34:49.580 align:middle line:84% for the convenience of such faculty 00:34:49.580 --> 00:34:53.300 align:middle line:84% where they could go and read these documents that are 00:34:53.300 --> 00:34:55.280 align:middle line:90% part of what they need to do? 00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:58.800 align:middle line:84% And in the end, we said, no, we won't do that. 00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:03.110 align:middle line:84% We just said that it's much, much better if we just say-- 00:35:03.110 --> 00:35:08.000 align:middle line:84% in fact, we got that particular advice from Ernie Moniz. 00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:11.110 align:middle line:84% Ernie is a major figure around here, 00:35:11.110 --> 00:35:12.860 align:middle line:84% but he was head of the Physics Department. 00:35:12.860 --> 00:35:14.660 align:middle line:84% He was Undersecretary in the Department 00:35:14.660 --> 00:35:18.260 align:middle line:90% of Energy, physicist. 00:35:18.260 --> 00:35:20.160 align:middle line:84% They work a lot with classified material 00:35:20.160 --> 00:35:22.410 align:middle line:90% because of the nuclear issue. 00:35:22.410 --> 00:35:24.210 align:middle line:84% And so he had been very close to that. 00:35:24.210 --> 00:35:28.230 align:middle line:84% And he said, really, don't do it. 00:35:28.230 --> 00:35:32.373 align:middle line:84% So I think if MIT faculty-- and when 00:35:32.373 --> 00:35:34.040 align:middle line:84% you're serving in a situation like that, 00:35:34.040 --> 00:35:36.110 align:middle line:90% you need to review materials. 00:35:36.110 --> 00:35:38.690 align:middle line:84% So I typically go out and Hanscom but when 00:35:38.690 --> 00:35:40.040 align:middle line:90% I have to review materials. 00:35:40.040 --> 00:35:42.830 align:middle line:84% And I can get access to the classified web out there 00:35:42.830 --> 00:35:43.860 align:middle line:90% and do it. 00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:44.900 align:middle line:90% There's also Draper Lab. 00:35:44.900 --> 00:35:47.280 align:middle line:84% We have a kind of a relationship with Draper Lab. 00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:50.120 align:middle line:84% And so if an MIT faculty member was 00:35:50.120 --> 00:35:52.130 align:middle line:84% serving on a government advisory panel 00:35:52.130 --> 00:35:55.960 align:middle line:84% and needed to be able to read a report and make comments on it 00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:58.830 align:middle line:84% and stuff like that, they could conceivably do that at Draper. 00:35:58.830 --> 00:36:00.800 align:middle line:90% Lincoln is a great facility. 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:02.840 align:middle line:84% So there's lots of possibilities. 00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:06.200 align:middle line:84% But we do not have classified material on campus. 00:36:06.200 --> 00:36:07.700 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: During the Vietnam unrest, 00:36:07.700 --> 00:36:09.770 align:middle line:84% when that decision was made, was it 00:36:09.770 --> 00:36:14.360 align:middle line:84% because of the desire to enable every student to access 00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:15.050 align:middle line:90% everything? 00:36:15.050 --> 00:36:17.217 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: It's really hard for me to remember. 00:36:17.217 --> 00:36:19.130 align:middle line:84% I was a young faculty member at that time. 00:36:19.130 --> 00:36:21.620 align:middle line:84% There was just so much turmoil involved. 00:36:21.620 --> 00:36:24.170 align:middle line:90% 00:36:24.170 --> 00:36:26.900 align:middle line:84% I think it was more a matter of principle. 00:36:26.900 --> 00:36:28.910 align:middle line:84% Obviously, if you had a little room somewhere, 00:36:28.910 --> 00:36:32.600 align:middle line:84% that doesn't really interfere with the right of students. 00:36:32.600 --> 00:36:36.590 align:middle line:84% I mean, a little room in the basement, 00:36:36.590 --> 00:36:38.930 align:middle line:84% from a pragmatic point of view, would be OK. 00:36:38.930 --> 00:36:40.880 align:middle line:84% I think it was a matter of principle. 00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:45.170 align:middle line:84% I just think that MIT, at that point, divested Draper. 00:36:45.170 --> 00:36:48.050 align:middle line:84% And I think we just made the decision. 00:36:48.050 --> 00:36:52.640 align:middle line:84% I mean, for example, there can be no classified student 00:36:52.640 --> 00:36:55.070 align:middle line:90% theses. 00:36:55.070 --> 00:36:58.220 align:middle line:84% Now, people at Draper-- we have a lot of Air Force officers 00:36:58.220 --> 00:37:00.950 align:middle line:84% at Draper-- they have access to classified material. 00:37:00.950 --> 00:37:03.830 align:middle line:84% They're probably doing work that involves classified. 00:37:03.830 --> 00:37:06.950 align:middle line:84% But when they get around to writing their thesis, 00:37:06.950 --> 00:37:09.470 align:middle line:84% their thesis is a public document. 00:37:09.470 --> 00:37:13.460 align:middle line:84% The thesis committee does not need classification 00:37:13.460 --> 00:37:15.980 align:middle line:90% to serve on a thesis committee. 00:37:15.980 --> 00:37:21.500 align:middle line:84% So we really do maintain kind of a totally open 00:37:21.500 --> 00:37:23.580 align:middle line:90% educational campus program. 00:37:23.580 --> 00:37:25.627 align:middle line:84% And that's kind of how we emerged. 00:37:25.627 --> 00:37:27.710 align:middle line:84% I mean, I remember, when I was a graduate student, 00:37:27.710 --> 00:37:29.600 align:middle line:90% we had locked file cabinets. 00:37:29.600 --> 00:37:32.330 align:middle line:90% And I can hardly remember. 00:37:32.330 --> 00:37:34.160 align:middle line:84% I think I had a confidential clearance. 00:37:34.160 --> 00:37:35.630 align:middle line:90% It's all very fuzzy. 00:37:35.630 --> 00:37:36.740 align:middle line:90% It means very little. 00:37:36.740 --> 00:37:39.800 align:middle line:84% "Confidential" is-- I don't even if anybody uses it anymore. 00:37:39.800 --> 00:37:43.730 align:middle line:84% It's a fairly low level of security clearance. 00:37:43.730 --> 00:37:47.870 align:middle line:84% But when I got my last security clearance, 00:37:47.870 --> 00:37:49.950 align:middle line:90% I asked him, what level is this? 00:37:49.950 --> 00:37:51.839 align:middle line:84% And they said, we can't tell you. 00:37:51.839 --> 00:37:54.284 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:37:54.284 --> 00:37:57.480 align:middle line:90% 00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:57.980 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:37:57.980 --> 00:37:59.147 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I have a question. 00:37:59.147 --> 00:38:01.790 align:middle line:84% You talked about personal ethics first. 00:38:01.790 --> 00:38:04.460 align:middle line:84% And I was wondering if, at any point 00:38:04.460 --> 00:38:07.310 align:middle line:84% in your academic or government career, 00:38:07.310 --> 00:38:12.020 align:middle line:84% you came up to a situation where your personal ethics were 00:38:12.020 --> 00:38:13.580 align:middle line:90% really challenged. 00:38:13.580 --> 00:38:16.236 align:middle line:84% Maybe there was a mismatch between the institution 00:38:16.236 --> 00:38:19.294 align:middle line:84% you were affiliated with or the people you were affiliated with 00:38:19.294 --> 00:38:22.433 align:middle line:84% and your own personal ethics sort of had to-- 00:38:22.433 --> 00:38:23.975 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: No, I mean, I don't-- 00:38:23.975 --> 00:38:24.350 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:38:24.350 --> 00:38:26.225 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: --mean to sound pollyannaish, 00:38:26.225 --> 00:38:29.600 align:middle line:84% but I actually can't remember a situation that really-- 00:38:29.600 --> 00:38:31.280 align:middle line:90% it was probably those nuns. 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:33.026 align:middle line:90% They raised me. 00:38:33.026 --> 00:38:38.940 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] I see Sister Albertine standing behind me every time 00:38:38.940 --> 00:38:41.810 align:middle line:90% I get in a tight situation. 00:38:41.810 --> 00:38:48.020 align:middle line:84% No, again, because I think the value structure 00:38:48.020 --> 00:38:50.450 align:middle line:90% is very pragmatic. 00:38:50.450 --> 00:38:51.740 align:middle line:90% And I'm a pragmatic person. 00:38:51.740 --> 00:38:56.810 align:middle line:84% I've simply seen too many examples of the slippery slope, 00:38:56.810 --> 00:39:04.160 align:middle line:84% the big explosion, the penalty for letting up in some sense, 00:39:04.160 --> 00:39:05.750 align:middle line:90% on these issues. 00:39:05.750 --> 00:39:10.160 align:middle line:84% So I can't really remember a situation 00:39:10.160 --> 00:39:11.435 align:middle line:90% that would have been stark. 00:39:11.435 --> 00:39:14.010 align:middle line:90% 00:39:14.010 --> 00:39:15.260 align:middle line:90% I don't think I'm dodging it. 00:39:15.260 --> 00:39:21.447 align:middle line:90% 00:39:21.447 --> 00:39:23.030 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Maybe I can make the comment 00:39:23.030 --> 00:39:24.942 align:middle line:90% that I think is really helpful. 00:39:24.942 --> 00:39:26.746 align:middle line:84% Because you talk about organizations 00:39:26.746 --> 00:39:29.204 align:middle line:84% acting as a safety [INAUDIBLE] a certain ethic. 00:39:29.204 --> 00:39:30.704 align:middle line:84% It just helped me to think about it, 00:39:30.704 --> 00:39:33.600 align:middle line:84% the way you laid it out in terms of the importance 00:39:33.600 --> 00:39:36.590 align:middle line:90% of leadership. 00:39:36.590 --> 00:39:39.572 align:middle line:90% That was very helpful. 00:39:39.572 --> 00:39:42.480 align:middle line:84% I'm trying to think about a specific question. 00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:45.690 align:middle line:84% Based on what you said, do you think that maybe that speaks 00:39:45.690 --> 00:39:50.180 align:middle line:84% to the importance of being affiliated or becoming 00:39:50.180 --> 00:39:53.420 align:middle line:84% involved with organizations whose cultures match yours? 00:39:53.420 --> 00:39:57.800 align:middle line:84% Because I think, in your case, maybe you're [INAUDIBLE].. 00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:00.976 align:middle line:84% Do you think that is important to [INAUDIBLE] compromise 00:40:00.976 --> 00:40:01.830 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE]? 00:40:01.830 --> 00:40:04.288 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Yeah, no, I think it's extremely important. 00:40:04.288 --> 00:40:06.770 align:middle line:84% I'm actually glad you raised the issue. 00:40:06.770 --> 00:40:12.080 align:middle line:84% You will all be faced with the issue of deciding what 00:40:12.080 --> 00:40:16.460 align:middle line:84% organizations to be a part of if you leave here, 00:40:16.460 --> 00:40:21.710 align:middle line:84% go out and get a job, you join some other organization. 00:40:21.710 --> 00:40:23.210 align:middle line:90% How do you make that choice? 00:40:23.210 --> 00:40:27.110 align:middle line:84% What do you need to know about an organization? 00:40:27.110 --> 00:40:30.410 align:middle line:84% When you see something within that other organization that 00:40:30.410 --> 00:40:34.400 align:middle line:84% gives you concern, does the organization 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:37.140 align:middle line:90% support your concern? 00:40:37.140 --> 00:40:43.070 align:middle line:84% And I doubt very much that people think about those things 00:40:43.070 --> 00:40:46.310 align:middle line:84% as they're thinking about their operations. 00:40:46.310 --> 00:40:49.970 align:middle line:84% But organizations are very complicated things. 00:40:49.970 --> 00:40:55.730 align:middle line:84% For example, I consider myself a real fan of Boeing. 00:40:55.730 --> 00:41:00.200 align:middle line:84% I worked for them when I was undergraduate in Seattle. 00:41:00.200 --> 00:41:02.900 align:middle line:84% And every time one of these things comes up, 00:41:02.900 --> 00:41:06.770 align:middle line:84% I feel like a dagger is going into my heart 00:41:06.770 --> 00:41:10.430 align:middle line:84% because these complexities, I don't believe, 00:41:10.430 --> 00:41:12.905 align:middle line:84% are representative of the entire company. 00:41:12.905 --> 00:41:15.530 align:middle line:90% 00:41:15.530 --> 00:41:20.300 align:middle line:84% But they have a devastating effect on the company, 00:41:20.300 --> 00:41:26.560 align:middle line:84% on its business line, its profits, its image. 00:41:26.560 --> 00:41:30.040 align:middle line:84% And I say, oh god, there they go again. 00:41:30.040 --> 00:41:35.040 align:middle line:90% Something got away from them. 00:41:35.040 --> 00:41:39.820 align:middle line:84% So I still believe that they are a great company. 00:41:39.820 --> 00:41:45.290 align:middle line:84% And I just anguish every time I see one of these things. 00:41:45.290 --> 00:41:48.400 align:middle line:84% So I think, in order to understand a company, 00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:52.540 align:middle line:84% you have to understand them at the inner layers as opposed 00:41:52.540 --> 00:41:55.090 align:middle line:90% to what's in the paper. 00:41:55.090 --> 00:41:56.605 align:middle line:90% Not that that's any easier. 00:41:56.605 --> 00:41:59.130 align:middle line:90% 00:41:59.130 --> 00:42:03.360 align:middle line:84% And I think any company needs people 00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:05.850 align:middle line:84% who are able to contribute in a positive way 00:42:05.850 --> 00:42:09.965 align:middle line:90% to the culture [INAUDIBLE]. 00:42:09.965 --> 00:42:14.450 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: As background to some of this discussion, 00:42:14.450 --> 00:42:18.740 align:middle line:84% I had told students that, back in the early '70s, when 00:42:18.740 --> 00:42:21.735 align:middle line:84% engineering with ethics was forming itself as a field, 00:42:21.735 --> 00:42:26.150 align:middle line:84% a legitimate field of study, one of the great hopes of all 00:42:26.150 --> 00:42:27.810 align:middle line:84% of the philosophers who were involved-- 00:42:27.810 --> 00:42:31.910 align:middle line:84% that accounts for about 75% of the people involved-- 00:42:31.910 --> 00:42:33.680 align:middle line:84% was that they would get their names 00:42:33.680 --> 00:42:35.480 align:middle line:84% written up with Aristotle and Plato 00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:37.280 align:middle line:90% by discovering a new ethic. 00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:39.480 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:43.520 align:middle line:84% And one of their specific hopes in those days 00:42:43.520 --> 00:42:48.580 align:middle line:84% was to break away from the precondition, the tradition, 00:42:48.580 --> 00:42:52.420 align:middle line:84% that holds that only an individual can 00:42:52.420 --> 00:42:55.300 align:middle line:90% be a moral agent. 00:42:55.300 --> 00:42:57.760 align:middle line:84% And the hope was that the ethicist 00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:03.220 align:middle line:84% would do like lawyers, where a corporation has personhood 00:43:03.220 --> 00:43:07.340 align:middle line:84% in law, and can commit a crime, can [INAUDIBLE] independent 00:43:07.340 --> 00:43:08.463 align:middle line:90% of the people in it. 00:43:08.463 --> 00:43:10.630 align:middle line:84% They wanted to see if they can come up with an ethic 00:43:10.630 --> 00:43:13.930 align:middle line:84% where a corporation could be ethical or not. 00:43:13.930 --> 00:43:19.790 align:middle line:84% And then, with the Columbia, there 00:43:19.790 --> 00:43:21.790 align:middle line:84% was this big conclusion coming out 00:43:21.790 --> 00:43:26.750 align:middle line:84% that was something that had to be admitted as a culture. 00:43:26.750 --> 00:43:29.900 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: That particular organization, yes. 00:43:29.900 --> 00:43:32.570 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: And then we are saying 00:43:32.570 --> 00:43:35.500 align:middle line:90% the same thing about Enron. 00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:37.610 align:middle line:84% It wasn't just a couple of the bad people. 00:43:37.610 --> 00:43:39.360 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: No, yeah, no, that's true. 00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:41.450 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: That there was something that 00:43:41.450 --> 00:43:43.842 align:middle line:90% went all through the culture. 00:43:43.842 --> 00:43:49.640 align:middle line:84% So I'm thinking that there's this unavoidable inclination 00:43:49.640 --> 00:43:52.550 align:middle line:84% for leaders talking about people who 00:43:52.550 --> 00:43:56.180 align:middle line:84% are in positions that you have occupied 00:43:56.180 --> 00:43:57.380 align:middle line:90% and had these experiences. 00:43:57.380 --> 00:43:59.930 align:middle line:84% There's something that's unavoidable, inescapable, 00:43:59.930 --> 00:44:06.070 align:middle line:84% to think about culture as being good or bad 00:44:06.070 --> 00:44:08.140 align:middle line:84% and the organization being a moral agent, 00:44:08.140 --> 00:44:09.820 align:middle line:84% no matter what the philosophers said. 00:44:09.820 --> 00:44:14.210 align:middle line:84% Is there something-- how do you think about organization 00:44:14.210 --> 00:44:15.560 align:middle line:90% in terms of being good or bad? 00:44:15.560 --> 00:44:18.050 align:middle line:84% And if you judge it to be bad in some sort of way, 00:44:18.050 --> 00:44:21.140 align:middle line:84% how do you go about correcting it? 00:44:21.140 --> 00:44:23.120 align:middle line:84% And of course, we've already talked 00:44:23.120 --> 00:44:26.960 align:middle line:84% about how we deal with codes of ethics, rules of conduct. 00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:30.373 align:middle line:84% But I'd just like to see how you think about that. 00:44:30.373 --> 00:44:31.790 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Well, I guess I do 00:44:31.790 --> 00:44:35.870 align:middle line:84% believe that there are organizations 00:44:35.870 --> 00:44:39.500 align:middle line:90% that are good and not so good. 00:44:39.500 --> 00:44:44.210 align:middle line:84% And for me, I guess I look at it primarily 00:44:44.210 --> 00:44:46.070 align:middle line:90% as an issue of leadership. 00:44:46.070 --> 00:44:51.050 align:middle line:90% And I mean active leadership. 00:44:51.050 --> 00:44:53.480 align:middle line:84% I don't mean people who just talk a good game, 00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:55.790 align:middle line:90% I mean really active leadership. 00:44:55.790 --> 00:44:59.220 align:middle line:84% And I would have to say that I believe 00:44:59.220 --> 00:45:02.720 align:middle line:90% MIT is a good organization. 00:45:02.720 --> 00:45:08.480 align:middle line:84% I mean, I've been involved with MIT for a very long time, 00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:12.080 align:middle line:84% since '56, when I came as a freshman. 00:45:12.080 --> 00:45:19.850 align:middle line:84% But the typical pattern of MIT is to get in early 00:45:19.850 --> 00:45:22.220 align:middle line:90% and do the right thing. 00:45:22.220 --> 00:45:26.990 align:middle line:84% And I could just think of so many examples of that. 00:45:26.990 --> 00:45:31.160 align:middle line:84% When affirmative action came in-- 00:45:31.160 --> 00:45:33.510 align:middle line:90% and this is like '72 or '70-- 00:45:33.510 --> 00:45:36.420 align:middle line:90% this was a very long time ago-- 00:45:36.420 --> 00:45:38.780 align:middle line:90% many universities gamed it. 00:45:38.780 --> 00:45:40.400 align:middle line:84% They said, well, we can figure out 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:44.270 align:middle line:90% a way to deflect this stuff. 00:45:44.270 --> 00:45:45.960 align:middle line:84% And MIT said, we're going to do it, 00:45:45.960 --> 00:45:47.990 align:middle line:84% and we're going to do it next year. 00:45:47.990 --> 00:45:52.580 align:middle line:84% I mean, it couldn't have been more different. 00:45:52.580 --> 00:45:55.140 align:middle line:84% It happened to be Howard Johnson. 00:45:55.140 --> 00:45:58.530 align:middle line:84% Basically said, we're going to do this 00:45:58.530 --> 00:46:00.218 align:middle line:84% and we're going to hire women faculty, 00:46:00.218 --> 00:46:01.760 align:middle line:84% we're going to hire minority faculty, 00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:04.052 align:middle line:84% and we're going to move on, and we're going to do this. 00:46:04.052 --> 00:46:05.560 align:middle line:90% We're going to make this happen. 00:46:05.560 --> 00:46:12.240 align:middle line:84% And I just think of so many examples where that's true. 00:46:12.240 --> 00:46:15.090 align:middle line:84% MIT was sued by the federal government over the issue 00:46:15.090 --> 00:46:19.498 align:middle line:90% of merit-based aid. 00:46:19.498 --> 00:46:23.620 align:middle line:84% I always get this mixed up, but it's the basic issue 00:46:23.620 --> 00:46:27.750 align:middle line:90% of need-based financial. 00:46:27.750 --> 00:46:31.930 align:middle line:84% All the Ivies just kind of withered away from the issue, 00:46:31.930 --> 00:46:34.300 align:middle line:84% leaving us standing all by ourselves. 00:46:34.300 --> 00:46:35.040 align:middle line:90% We won the case. 00:46:35.040 --> 00:46:38.360 align:middle line:90% 00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:41.030 align:middle line:90% And it's been leadership. 00:46:41.030 --> 00:46:42.350 align:middle line:90% It's been top leadership. 00:46:42.350 --> 00:46:46.430 align:middle line:84% It's been passed over from leader to leader. 00:46:46.430 --> 00:46:50.120 align:middle line:84% It's been Howard Johnson, Jerry Wiesner, and Paul Gray, 00:46:50.120 --> 00:46:52.280 align:middle line:84% it's been Chuck Vest, and now it's Susan Hockfield. 00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:58.450 align:middle line:84% And there's been a passover in leadership 00:46:58.450 --> 00:47:03.850 align:middle line:84% from these different leaders and a highly visible statement, 00:47:03.850 --> 00:47:05.230 align:middle line:90% followed by action. 00:47:05.230 --> 00:47:09.120 align:middle line:84% MIT is a very action-oriented place. 00:47:09.120 --> 00:47:11.340 align:middle line:84% These guys just don't talk a good game, 00:47:11.340 --> 00:47:18.430 align:middle line:84% they put in place the organizational culture 00:47:18.430 --> 00:47:22.270 align:middle line:84% and policies and dynamics that would actually 00:47:22.270 --> 00:47:24.210 align:middle line:90% make these things happen. 00:47:24.210 --> 00:47:28.240 align:middle line:84% So I mean, I think, as I look around, MIT, I think, 00:47:28.240 --> 00:47:31.150 align:middle line:84% is a fine example of an organization, 00:47:31.150 --> 00:47:32.923 align:middle line:84% probably one of the best I can think of. 00:47:32.923 --> 00:47:36.310 align:middle line:90% 00:47:36.310 --> 00:47:40.360 align:middle line:84% And then there are other organizations. 00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:44.143 align:middle line:84% And then there's some really bad ones, like Enron, 00:47:44.143 --> 00:47:44.810 align:middle line:90% totally corrupt. 00:47:44.810 --> 00:47:48.620 align:middle line:90% 00:47:48.620 --> 00:47:54.350 align:middle line:84% And ones in the middle that I think 00:47:54.350 --> 00:47:56.180 align:middle line:84% are fundamentally good but, every once 00:47:56.180 --> 00:47:57.785 align:middle line:84% in a while, individuals who somehow 00:47:57.785 --> 00:47:58.910 align:middle line:90% haven't gotten the message. 00:47:58.910 --> 00:48:01.940 align:middle line:84% And that's the responsibility of leadership, 00:48:01.940 --> 00:48:04.280 align:middle line:90% is to get that message out. 00:48:04.280 --> 00:48:06.710 align:middle line:84% And if leadership doesn't do it, well, shame on them. 00:48:06.710 --> 00:48:09.260 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's their responsibility to-- 00:48:09.260 --> 00:48:14.050 align:middle line:84% I think the Air Force is a very good organization. 00:48:14.050 --> 00:48:15.500 align:middle line:90% I didn't have-- 00:48:15.500 --> 00:48:18.640 align:middle line:84% I mean, obviously we had challenges, big challenges, 00:48:18.640 --> 00:48:21.940 align:middle line:84% but the organization responds to leadership. 00:48:21.940 --> 00:48:25.300 align:middle line:84% It is a leadership-focused organization 00:48:25.300 --> 00:48:26.990 align:middle line:90% with a good set of core values. 00:48:26.990 --> 00:48:31.480 align:middle line:84% So those are the tools that you use in order 00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:34.870 align:middle line:90% to motivate people to aim high. 00:48:34.870 --> 00:48:37.660 align:middle line:84% That's what we all say is aim high. 00:48:37.660 --> 00:48:40.870 align:middle line:84% So no, I agree with you that organizational ethics is 00:48:40.870 --> 00:48:45.268 align:middle line:90% an extremely important issue. 00:48:45.268 --> 00:48:50.420 align:middle line:84% And I would have maybe not called the NASA thing 00:48:50.420 --> 00:48:54.260 align:middle line:84% "organizational ethics," but the fact of the matter is it is. 00:48:54.260 --> 00:48:59.120 align:middle line:84% NASA's responsibility is to spend the nation's resources 00:48:59.120 --> 00:49:03.470 align:middle line:84% wisely and to protect the people that are 00:49:03.470 --> 00:49:04.860 align:middle line:90% involved in human spaceflight. 00:49:04.860 --> 00:49:08.430 align:middle line:84% And those are high ethical responsibilities. 00:49:08.430 --> 00:49:11.790 align:middle line:90% 00:49:11.790 --> 00:49:13.980 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: That brings up something that's been 00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:15.670 align:middle line:84% challenging for me in this class, 00:49:15.670 --> 00:49:18.980 align:middle line:84% which is the tension between when you're considering 00:49:18.980 --> 00:49:22.560 align:middle line:84% an organization or a company, the tension between the bottom 00:49:22.560 --> 00:49:25.680 align:middle line:84% line and the need to stay on the ground financially, 00:49:25.680 --> 00:49:28.060 align:middle line:90% and the well-being-- 00:49:28.060 --> 00:49:29.760 align:middle line:90% so I there's three things-- 00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.280 align:middle line:84% finances, the well-being of employees, 00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:35.190 align:middle line:84% and the well-being of the public [INAUDIBLE].. 00:49:35.190 --> 00:49:39.990 align:middle line:84% I wonder what challenges you've faced 00:49:39.990 --> 00:49:43.990 align:middle line:84% in managing that tension, how you approach [INAUDIBLE].. 00:49:43.990 --> 00:49:45.970 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Well, of course, most of the-- 00:49:45.970 --> 00:49:47.320 align:middle line:90% well, I guess, no. 00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:49.898 align:middle line:84% I can see organizations I've been involved in really 00:49:49.898 --> 00:49:51.190 align:middle line:90% do worry about the bottom line. 00:49:51.190 --> 00:49:55.810 align:middle line:84% I mean, even though we get money from the taxpayers in one 00:49:55.810 --> 00:49:57.910 align:middle line:84% form or another, the fact of the matter 00:49:57.910 --> 00:49:59.680 align:middle line:84% is that you spend most of your time-- 00:49:59.680 --> 00:50:02.980 align:middle line:84% a leader will spend most of their time arguing 00:50:02.980 --> 00:50:05.110 align:middle line:90% for resources. 00:50:05.110 --> 00:50:08.930 align:middle line:84% That's basically what you have to do. 00:50:08.930 --> 00:50:17.130 align:middle line:84% But in both of the organizations that I've been involved in, 00:50:17.130 --> 00:50:21.660 align:middle line:84% there is no benefit and considerable risk 00:50:21.660 --> 00:50:23.577 align:middle line:84% for what I would call taking the side door. 00:50:23.577 --> 00:50:26.160 align:middle line:84% I mean, if you just look at the things that have been going on 00:50:26.160 --> 00:50:32.060 align:middle line:84% in Washington with lobbyists, there is no benefit, say, 00:50:32.060 --> 00:50:36.560 align:middle line:84% to an institution like MIT or the Air Force ever trying 00:50:36.560 --> 00:50:38.200 align:middle line:90% that kind of behavior. 00:50:38.200 --> 00:50:42.960 align:middle line:84% The costs of doing that are extraordinary. 00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:46.410 align:middle line:90% 00:50:46.410 --> 00:50:49.160 align:middle line:84% So in that kind of organization where you do, 00:50:49.160 --> 00:50:57.140 align:middle line:84% in fact, spend most of your time arguing for resources, 00:50:57.140 --> 00:51:00.380 align:middle line:84% you will be most successful if you argue for resources 00:51:00.380 --> 00:51:02.680 align:middle line:90% from a high plane. 00:51:02.680 --> 00:51:05.880 align:middle line:84% I mean, MIT is always looking for resources. 00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:09.760 align:middle line:84% It looks from alumni, it looks from corporations, 00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:11.740 align:middle line:90% friends, benefactors. 00:51:11.740 --> 00:51:16.630 align:middle line:84% But the story is a consistent story of excellence 00:51:16.630 --> 00:51:18.190 align:middle line:90% in public service. 00:51:18.190 --> 00:51:20.660 align:middle line:90% And that's about all you can do. 00:51:20.660 --> 00:51:22.910 align:middle line:90% That's about all you can do. 00:51:22.910 --> 00:51:28.750 align:middle line:84% To depart from that, I think, is self-defeating 00:51:28.750 --> 00:51:33.130 align:middle line:84% because that begins a slippery slope. 00:51:33.130 --> 00:51:36.790 align:middle line:84% Anybody's ever able to point to an organization like MIT 00:51:36.790 --> 00:51:41.860 align:middle line:84% or like the Air Force for some inappropriate act, 00:51:41.860 --> 00:51:42.940 align:middle line:90% it all just goes away. 00:51:42.940 --> 00:51:45.660 align:middle line:90% 00:51:45.660 --> 00:51:50.880 align:middle line:84% I guess I believe enough in the Adam Smith theory of economics 00:51:50.880 --> 00:51:54.510 align:middle line:84% to believe that there are corporations that definitely 00:51:54.510 --> 00:51:59.670 align:middle line:84% provide a benefit to our society by their inventiveness, 00:51:59.670 --> 00:52:02.640 align:middle line:84% by getting talented and excellent people together, 00:52:02.640 --> 00:52:06.390 align:middle line:84% by producing products which produces jobs. 00:52:06.390 --> 00:52:09.510 align:middle line:84% I do believe that those organizations provide 00:52:09.510 --> 00:52:11.970 align:middle line:90% a net benefit to our society. 00:52:11.970 --> 00:52:12.990 align:middle line:90% Do they have challenges? 00:52:12.990 --> 00:52:13.920 align:middle line:90% Of course. 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:15.270 align:middle line:90% Of course they have challenges. 00:52:15.270 --> 00:52:18.930 align:middle line:84% But I think that there are many companies 00:52:18.930 --> 00:52:21.420 align:middle line:84% that one would be very proud to be associated 00:52:21.420 --> 00:52:24.090 align:middle line:84% with because they do, in fact, provide 00:52:24.090 --> 00:52:27.120 align:middle line:90% a benefit to our society. 00:52:27.120 --> 00:52:30.616 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Actually, Ms. Pesky, you ate my [INAUDIBLE].. 00:52:30.616 --> 00:52:31.840 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I apologize. 00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:33.257 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Well, actually, I think 00:52:33.257 --> 00:52:37.630 align:middle line:84% if we bring the conversation in to the student now, 00:52:37.630 --> 00:52:38.873 align:middle line:90% you've got a bottom line. 00:52:38.873 --> 00:52:40.516 align:middle line:84% It's called grades and graduation. 00:52:40.516 --> 00:52:44.700 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:52:44.700 --> 00:52:47.460 align:middle line:84% And I haven't been here quite a calendar year yet, 00:52:47.460 --> 00:52:50.010 align:middle line:84% but I've been invited to give an ethics talk 00:52:50.010 --> 00:52:51.560 align:middle line:90% before the graduate students. 00:52:51.560 --> 00:52:54.810 align:middle line:90% And they brought up some issues. 00:52:54.810 --> 00:52:59.310 align:middle line:84% And one student said it's kind of hard-- 00:52:59.310 --> 00:53:01.860 align:middle line:84% it's just kind of hard to be working 00:53:01.860 --> 00:53:05.310 align:middle line:84% real hard in a class, some student over there 00:53:05.310 --> 00:53:08.670 align:middle line:84% cheats, gets an A-plus, and I get an A-minus. 00:53:08.670 --> 00:53:10.104 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: Turn them in. 00:53:10.104 --> 00:53:11.832 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Yeah, that's bad for morale. 00:53:11.832 --> 00:53:14.590 align:middle line:90% But you've got the same problem. 00:53:14.590 --> 00:53:15.870 align:middle line:90% What are you going to do? 00:53:15.870 --> 00:53:19.560 align:middle line:84% And I think that the fact that the classroom, the research 00:53:19.560 --> 00:53:24.380 align:middle line:84% lab for students is more than a training ground. 00:53:24.380 --> 00:53:26.420 align:middle line:84% It's a case in point of the kind of thing 00:53:26.420 --> 00:53:28.770 align:middle line:90% you get when you get out. 00:53:28.770 --> 00:53:32.310 align:middle line:84% But apart from that lecture, I just 00:53:32.310 --> 00:53:42.420 align:middle line:84% want to go back to Dr. Widnall, when MIT has a personality 00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:44.220 align:middle line:90% to really get it on-- 00:53:44.220 --> 00:53:52.184 align:middle line:84% be first, really get in to the ground floor, to be a leader, 00:53:52.184 --> 00:53:54.395 align:middle line:84% where does the student share in all of that? 00:53:54.395 --> 00:53:57.670 align:middle line:84% That seems like it's a faculty and higher administration 00:53:57.670 --> 00:53:58.170 align:middle line:90% thing. 00:53:58.170 --> 00:53:59.217 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: No, I guess I don't-- 00:53:59.217 --> 00:54:00.750 align:middle line:90% Yeah, no I don't think so. 00:54:00.750 --> 00:54:06.070 align:middle line:84% First of all, so I was the student at MIT. 00:54:06.070 --> 00:54:10.070 align:middle line:84% I think the students benefit enormously from being here. 00:54:10.070 --> 00:54:13.060 align:middle line:84% I mean, there's lots of different ways to put it, 00:54:13.060 --> 00:54:15.550 align:middle line:84% but first of all, at the undergraduate level, 00:54:15.550 --> 00:54:17.140 align:middle line:90% there's UROP. 00:54:17.140 --> 00:54:21.730 align:middle line:84% Other universities have tried UROP and not been successful. 00:54:21.730 --> 00:54:25.120 align:middle line:84% Primarily, I think, we have some lucky numbers 00:54:25.120 --> 00:54:26.830 align:middle line:90% in faculty-student ratio. 00:54:26.830 --> 00:54:31.150 align:middle line:84% And that makes it possible, frankly. 00:54:31.150 --> 00:54:32.950 align:middle line:84% The other part is, I used to tell students, 00:54:32.950 --> 00:54:36.720 align:middle line:90% knock on the door. 00:54:36.720 --> 00:54:39.850 align:middle line:84% 99% of the time, you will see a friendly face 00:54:39.850 --> 00:54:43.600 align:middle line:90% on the other side of that door. 00:54:43.600 --> 00:54:47.050 align:middle line:84% Students benefit, I think, enormously 00:54:47.050 --> 00:54:50.320 align:middle line:84% from the volume and the quality of the research that's 00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:51.460 align:middle line:90% going on in this place. 00:54:51.460 --> 00:54:54.100 align:middle line:90% I mean, it's very exciting. 00:54:54.100 --> 00:54:55.370 align:middle line:90% It drives the place. 00:54:55.370 --> 00:55:00.765 align:middle line:84% Nobody has time to get all the benefits. 00:55:00.765 --> 00:55:02.390 align:middle line:84% I guess the other thing I wanted to say 00:55:02.390 --> 00:55:06.290 align:middle line:84% in connection with your comment is 00:55:06.290 --> 00:55:11.200 align:middle line:84% that I do believe it is the responsibility of the faculty 00:55:11.200 --> 00:55:14.830 align:middle line:84% to ensure that students can benefit from ethical behavior. 00:55:14.830 --> 00:55:17.850 align:middle line:90% 00:55:17.850 --> 00:55:21.150 align:middle line:84% I think faculty who are casual and careless 00:55:21.150 --> 00:55:28.440 align:middle line:84% about the structuring of exams so that students 00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:31.290 align:middle line:84% who take inappropriate measures can benefit, 00:55:31.290 --> 00:55:33.000 align:middle line:84% I think that that's unethical behavior. 00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:36.870 align:middle line:90% 00:55:36.870 --> 00:55:40.050 align:middle line:84% So I think that the faculty have a responsibility 00:55:40.050 --> 00:55:44.070 align:middle line:84% to structure the educational and research program in such a way 00:55:44.070 --> 00:55:47.070 align:middle line:84% that students get the most out of it 00:55:47.070 --> 00:55:52.080 align:middle line:84% and also are not disadvantaged from somebody else's 00:55:52.080 --> 00:55:53.230 align:middle line:90% unethical behavior. 00:55:53.230 --> 00:55:56.130 align:middle line:84% And I say that as the former chairman of the Discipline 00:55:56.130 --> 00:55:57.101 align:middle line:90% Committee. 00:55:57.101 --> 00:56:04.020 align:middle line:84% [LAUGHS] Because we're the ones that heard 00:56:04.020 --> 00:56:06.330 align:middle line:90% the cases about [INAUDIBLE]. 00:56:06.330 --> 00:56:08.430 align:middle line:84% But you hope it never gets to that. 00:56:08.430 --> 00:56:10.400 align:middle line:90% You hope it never gets to that. 00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:13.620 align:middle line:84% You hope that the rules are clear 00:56:13.620 --> 00:56:16.330 align:middle line:84% and that the system is set up in such a way 00:56:16.330 --> 00:56:20.760 align:middle line:84% so that students get the benefit from it 00:56:20.760 --> 00:56:25.410 align:middle line:84% in proportion to their talents and the energy 00:56:25.410 --> 00:56:29.650 align:middle line:90% that they put into the endeavor. 00:56:29.650 --> 00:56:32.770 align:middle line:84% And that's really what it's all about 00:56:32.770 --> 00:56:35.590 align:middle line:84% because that's where the true education comes from. 00:56:35.590 --> 00:56:36.760 align:middle line:90% You had a question, right? 00:56:36.760 --> 00:56:37.945 align:middle line:90% I saw you with your hand up. 00:56:37.945 --> 00:56:39.320 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Actually two questions. 00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:41.726 align:middle line:84% And one relates to something you were just talking about. 00:56:41.726 --> 00:56:46.720 align:middle line:84% If you're at MIT, and when you encounter 00:56:46.720 --> 00:56:49.794 align:middle line:90% the situations that are gray-- 00:56:49.794 --> 00:56:51.377 align:middle line:84% I mean, if it's black and white, you 00:56:51.377 --> 00:56:53.252 align:middle line:84% know here's the ethical thing and here's not. 00:56:53.252 --> 00:56:55.044 align:middle line:84% But if you run into things that are gray, 00:56:55.044 --> 00:56:56.960 align:middle line:84% is the appropriate course of action, then, 00:56:56.960 --> 00:56:59.772 align:middle line:84% to err on the side of being ethical [INAUDIBLE] 00:56:59.772 --> 00:57:00.647 align:middle line:90% and just don't do it? 00:57:00.647 --> 00:57:04.750 align:middle line:84% Or [INAUDIBLE] can you run this idea by somebody. 00:57:04.750 --> 00:57:06.995 align:middle line:84% Is the [INAUDIBLE] person the person 00:57:06.995 --> 00:57:14.540 align:middle line:84% to talk to, to say, hey, this situation is not [INAUDIBLE]?? 00:57:14.540 --> 00:57:16.880 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: I think talking to somebody 00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:19.970 align:middle line:84% is the right thing if you have questions. 00:57:19.970 --> 00:57:23.030 align:middle line:84% It seems to me it probably isn't just a single individual. 00:57:23.030 --> 00:57:26.120 align:middle line:84% It probably is case dependent you know, 00:57:26.120 --> 00:57:27.950 align:middle line:90% it could be a faculty colleague. 00:57:27.950 --> 00:57:31.430 align:middle line:84% It could be somebody in your Department. 00:57:31.430 --> 00:57:34.190 align:middle line:84% It could be somebody in the provost's office. 00:57:34.190 --> 00:57:39.530 align:middle line:84% It depends an awful lot on what the situation is. 00:57:39.530 --> 00:57:42.290 align:middle line:84% But yeah, I would think to have a dialogue 00:57:42.290 --> 00:57:47.690 align:middle line:84% about these things is very healthy for an institution. 00:57:47.690 --> 00:57:50.240 align:middle line:84% It probably strengthens everybody 00:57:50.240 --> 00:57:54.506 align:middle line:84% who gets involved in such a dialogue. 00:57:54.506 --> 00:57:57.003 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: That's a question [INAUDIBLE] as well. 00:57:57.003 --> 00:57:58.670 align:middle line:84% It's the individual in the organization. 00:57:58.670 --> 00:58:01.910 align:middle line:84% But particularly-- and this organization 00:58:01.910 --> 00:58:06.080 align:middle line:84% could be military or corporate, but I personally 00:58:06.080 --> 00:58:08.288 align:middle line:84% have more direct interest in the military as a place. 00:58:08.288 --> 00:58:15.536 align:middle line:84% If you're given the order, say, by a [INAUDIBLE]---- 00:58:15.536 --> 00:58:21.480 align:middle line:84% we saw that in-- we had a [INAUDIBLE].. 00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:25.493 align:middle line:84% In the military environment, how is that regarded to-- 00:58:25.493 --> 00:58:29.190 align:middle line:84% You mentioned this a little bit when [INAUDIBLE],, but how is it 00:58:29.190 --> 00:58:35.508 align:middle line:84% regarded in the military to say [INAUDIBLE] to question more? 00:58:35.508 --> 00:58:36.966 align:middle line:90% Do they have that flexibility? 00:58:36.966 --> 00:58:40.630 align:middle line:84% Are there maybe some of the information just-- 00:58:40.630 --> 00:58:45.460 align:middle line:84% are they shielding some information so that when 00:58:45.460 --> 00:58:48.770 align:middle line:84% it's critical for them to, say, do a particular action, 00:58:48.770 --> 00:58:52.722 align:middle line:84% at time of action, they don't hesitate-- 00:58:52.722 --> 00:58:54.760 align:middle line:84% in the military, there are extreme conditions. 00:58:54.760 --> 00:58:56.560 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Yeah, there are extreme conditions. 00:58:56.560 --> 00:58:57.340 align:middle line:90% Yeah, there are-- 00:58:57.340 --> 00:58:57.580 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:58:57.580 --> 00:58:57.970 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: Right. 00:58:57.970 --> 00:58:59.178 align:middle line:90% There are extreme conditions. 00:58:59.178 --> 00:59:03.910 align:middle line:84% I think that is probably a very complex situation. 00:59:03.910 --> 00:59:06.880 align:middle line:84% It's a little like your question about engineers. 00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:10.030 align:middle line:84% What is the-- I mean, if engineers just 00:59:10.030 --> 00:59:11.770 align:middle line:84% worry about everything but or not 00:59:11.770 --> 00:59:15.430 align:middle line:84% expressing their concerns in actionable form, 00:59:15.430 --> 00:59:18.100 align:middle line:84% that would tend to bring an organization to a halt. 00:59:18.100 --> 00:59:21.190 align:middle line:84% And I think the same thing is probably true in the military. 00:59:21.190 --> 00:59:23.285 align:middle line:84% If, say, you're going to get a group of guys, 00:59:23.285 --> 00:59:24.910 align:middle line:84% and you're going to get in this Humvee, 00:59:24.910 --> 00:59:28.150 align:middle line:84% and you're going to drive out to the center of the city, I mean, 00:59:28.150 --> 00:59:30.520 align:middle line:84% the last thing that could happen at that point 00:59:30.520 --> 00:59:33.800 align:middle line:84% is people arguing about whether that was a good idea. 00:59:33.800 --> 00:59:37.402 align:middle line:84% So it seems to me-- and I'm not an expert 00:59:37.402 --> 00:59:38.860 align:middle line:84% on this-- it seems to me there have 00:59:38.860 --> 00:59:41.320 align:middle line:84% to be kind of a set of ground rules about what 00:59:41.320 --> 00:59:44.230 align:middle line:90% is reasonable to object to. 00:59:44.230 --> 00:59:47.350 align:middle line:84% I think it's very clear, in the Abu Ghraib situation, 00:59:47.350 --> 00:59:50.150 align:middle line:84% that it would be very reasonable to object to that, 00:59:50.150 --> 00:59:51.910 align:middle line:84% that there's a bright line there. 00:59:51.910 --> 00:59:56.000 align:middle line:90% 00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:58.397 align:middle line:84% But as I understand, the structure in the military, 00:59:58.397 --> 01:00:00.730 align:middle line:84% I don't think you can do it the morning that you've been 01:00:00.730 --> 01:00:03.580 align:middle line:90% told to go out in a Humvee. 01:00:03.580 --> 01:00:08.650 align:middle line:84% I But there is a Jag Corps military justice 01:00:08.650 --> 01:00:15.670 align:middle line:84% system that is attached to the command at some level. 01:00:15.670 --> 01:00:20.230 align:middle line:84% And these people are, for all practical purposes, lawyers. 01:00:20.230 --> 01:00:23.590 align:middle line:84% And it would not be unreasonable, I think, 01:00:23.590 --> 01:00:27.880 align:middle line:84% to bring concerns of a kind of global nature to such people. 01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:34.900 align:middle line:84% And certainly in the case of things like Abu Ghraib, 01:00:34.900 --> 01:00:39.190 align:middle line:84% those things were so obviously wrong 01:00:39.190 --> 01:00:44.830 align:middle line:84% that individuals must have felt like there was a boundary there 01:00:44.830 --> 01:00:46.630 align:middle line:90% that they were crossing. 01:00:46.630 --> 01:00:51.040 align:middle line:84% So I think there are opportunities. 01:00:51.040 --> 01:00:54.590 align:middle line:84% And I'm also assuming-- and I don't this for a fact, 01:00:54.590 --> 01:00:58.120 align:middle line:84% but I'm assuming, in officer training, 01:00:58.120 --> 01:01:01.420 align:middle line:84% either through the Air Force Academy or officer training 01:01:01.420 --> 01:01:05.470 align:middle line:84% school or something, that these kinds of issues come up 01:01:05.470 --> 01:01:09.670 align:middle line:84% and that officers discuss, what would you do in a situation 01:01:09.670 --> 01:01:12.760 align:middle line:84% where you had concern about an order 01:01:12.760 --> 01:01:14.380 align:middle line:90% given by a superior officer? 01:01:14.380 --> 01:01:20.470 align:middle line:84% And just as a corporation has a hotline, making the assumption 01:01:20.470 --> 01:01:23.860 align:middle line:84% that there are avenues that younger officers 01:01:23.860 --> 01:01:30.340 align:middle line:84% or enlisted personnel could use to, again, talk with somebody 01:01:30.340 --> 01:01:36.550 align:middle line:84% and get a sense for what the boundaries are. 01:01:36.550 --> 01:01:39.460 align:middle line:84% I mean, otherwise, I think people 01:01:39.460 --> 01:01:43.450 align:middle line:84% are going to be kind of lonely if they 01:01:43.450 --> 01:01:45.850 align:middle line:84% don't have an opportunity to really talk 01:01:45.850 --> 01:01:48.570 align:middle line:90% to somebody about this. 01:01:48.570 --> 01:01:51.246 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: I was in the Army during the Vietnam era. 01:01:51.246 --> 01:01:53.100 align:middle line:84% I was a captain in the Corps of Engineers. 01:01:53.100 --> 01:01:57.007 align:middle line:84% But I was never called to do any duty. 01:01:57.007 --> 01:01:59.130 align:middle line:90% Frankly, I was happy about that. 01:01:59.130 --> 01:02:00.780 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: Oh, yeah, good. 01:02:00.780 --> 01:02:06.420 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: But it was a big scare for us, culturally. 01:02:06.420 --> 01:02:10.740 align:middle line:84% Before the My Lai incident, you were 01:02:10.740 --> 01:02:13.770 align:middle line:84% very comfortable in following your orders. 01:02:13.770 --> 01:02:15.930 align:middle line:84% Because if the order was a bad order, 01:02:15.930 --> 01:02:20.760 align:middle line:84% the person who gave it to you was the one that got punished. 01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:25.680 align:middle line:84% My Lai came about and changed all that for us. 01:02:25.680 --> 01:02:30.188 align:middle line:84% But I think-- and I really would like to know what you think 01:02:30.188 --> 01:02:33.540 align:middle line:84% about this, because I don't have a clue-- 01:02:33.540 --> 01:02:35.508 align:middle line:90% is that there was this movie-- 01:02:35.508 --> 01:02:37.175 align:middle line:84% I can't remember the name of this movie. 01:02:37.175 --> 01:02:42.502 align:middle line:84% It starred Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington. 01:02:42.502 --> 01:02:43.210 align:middle line:90% One of them was-- 01:02:43.210 --> 01:02:45.360 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] was it the submarine one? 01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:45.930 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: Submarine. 01:02:45.930 --> 01:02:46.555 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yeah. 01:02:46.555 --> 01:02:50.343 align:middle line:90% 01:02:50.343 --> 01:02:51.760 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: You're getting like me. 01:02:51.760 --> 01:02:52.180 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: Yeah, I know. 01:02:52.180 --> 01:02:53.330 align:middle line:90% I have these problems. 01:02:53.330 --> 01:02:59.260 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Well, the issue was that a lower-ranking officer 01:02:59.260 --> 01:03:03.490 align:middle line:84% didn't want to follow the order of a higher-ranking officer 01:03:03.490 --> 01:03:07.167 align:middle line:84% because the stakes in the game had lifted so high. 01:03:07.167 --> 01:03:08.750 align:middle line:84% You're talking about a nuclear weapon. 01:03:08.750 --> 01:03:11.890 align:middle line:90% 01:03:11.890 --> 01:03:15.068 align:middle line:90% Even in My Lai, I [INAUDIBLE]. 01:03:15.068 --> 01:03:17.110 align:middle line:84% But the worst that happened was the killing a lot 01:03:17.110 --> 01:03:19.880 align:middle line:84% of women and children in a village. 01:03:19.880 --> 01:03:20.860 align:middle line:90% A nuclear weapon-- 01:03:20.860 --> 01:03:22.818 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: That's a whole different thing. 01:03:22.818 --> 01:03:24.540 align:middle line:90% 01:03:24.540 --> 01:03:27.900 align:middle line:84% No, I mean, that's why we have movies. 01:03:27.900 --> 01:03:33.030 align:middle line:84% But yeah, no, I mean, I vaguely remember the movie, 01:03:33.030 --> 01:03:37.500 align:middle line:84% but I guess what I remember about it was not 01:03:37.500 --> 01:03:39.210 align:middle line:84% unreasonable for a younger officer 01:03:39.210 --> 01:03:42.300 align:middle line:90% to challenge a senior officer. 01:03:42.300 --> 01:03:46.650 align:middle line:84% And there are, evidently, situations under which 01:03:46.650 --> 01:03:49.110 align:middle line:84% he could have been declared unfit for command 01:03:49.110 --> 01:03:51.840 align:middle line:90% at that moment. 01:03:51.840 --> 01:03:56.830 align:middle line:84% And it's possible to imagine that happening, getting 01:03:56.830 --> 01:03:58.800 align:middle line:84% agreement from the crew that that 01:03:58.800 --> 01:04:01.830 align:middle line:84% was, in fact, the appropriate thing to do, 01:04:01.830 --> 01:04:07.200 align:middle line:84% and coming back ashore to have it adjudicated and found 01:04:07.200 --> 01:04:10.470 align:middle line:84% that that was, in fact, appropriate action 01:04:10.470 --> 01:04:14.520 align:middle line:84% given the circumstances, given the risk, given the judgments 01:04:14.520 --> 01:04:15.490 align:middle line:90% that were being made. 01:04:15.490 --> 01:04:21.240 align:middle line:84% It sounds to me like a very doable thing. 01:04:21.240 --> 01:04:24.660 align:middle line:84% I do consider the military to be an extremely ethical 01:04:24.660 --> 01:04:27.520 align:middle line:90% organization. 01:04:27.520 --> 01:04:29.626 align:middle line:90% There's just been so-- 01:04:29.626 --> 01:04:32.440 align:middle line:84% following upon my experience as chairman of the Discipline 01:04:32.440 --> 01:04:35.560 align:middle line:84% Committee, I really took a great interest 01:04:35.560 --> 01:04:37.140 align:middle line:90% in the military justice system. 01:04:37.140 --> 01:04:40.180 align:middle line:90% And I pursued every case-- 01:04:40.180 --> 01:04:43.780 align:middle line:84% I had to sign off on all officer cases. 01:04:43.780 --> 01:04:49.240 align:middle line:84% And so I went through the history of every case 01:04:49.240 --> 01:04:51.350 align:middle line:90% very carefully. 01:04:51.350 --> 01:04:54.550 align:middle line:84% And I could see the response, the actions that 01:04:54.550 --> 01:04:58.810 align:middle line:84% were taken by various officers along the way, 01:04:58.810 --> 01:05:04.030 align:middle line:84% during the incident itself, and getting it into the system, 01:05:04.030 --> 01:05:07.240 align:middle line:84% and the decisions that were made until it finally 01:05:07.240 --> 01:05:08.380 align:middle line:90% reached my desk. 01:05:08.380 --> 01:05:11.050 align:middle line:84% I guess all I can say about that is that it gave me 01:05:11.050 --> 01:05:16.810 align:middle line:84% a very good feeling about the integrity 01:05:16.810 --> 01:05:20.540 align:middle line:84% and about the excellence of the officers. 01:05:20.540 --> 01:05:25.820 align:middle line:84% I can give you a simple, somewhat humorous example. 01:05:25.820 --> 01:05:27.590 align:middle line:90% And this happens. 01:05:27.590 --> 01:05:29.150 align:middle line:90% People get midlife crises. 01:05:29.150 --> 01:05:31.310 align:middle line:90% But we had a general-- 01:05:31.310 --> 01:05:34.040 align:middle line:84% maybe he was a colonel, but I think he was a general-- 01:05:34.040 --> 01:05:40.497 align:middle line:84% who was at that tender age for men, 45, 50, 01:05:40.497 --> 01:05:41.330 align:middle line:90% something like that. 01:05:41.330 --> 01:05:45.350 align:middle line:84% And he's got this absolute attraction 01:05:45.350 --> 01:05:50.030 align:middle line:84% for this young airman and just couldn't live without her. 01:05:50.030 --> 01:05:52.440 align:middle line:90% Well, she would have none of it. 01:05:52.440 --> 01:05:55.670 align:middle line:84% So anyway, he had her transferred with him 01:05:55.670 --> 01:05:58.640 align:middle line:84% when he moved from Europe to the United States. 01:05:58.640 --> 01:06:03.710 align:middle line:84% And he just tried to get her alone with him, 01:06:03.710 --> 01:06:06.530 align:middle line:90% and she just kept resisting. 01:06:06.530 --> 01:06:10.130 align:middle line:84% Finally, he chased her around the desk. 01:06:10.130 --> 01:06:12.590 align:middle line:84% And she ran out into the hall, and ran 01:06:12.590 --> 01:06:17.060 align:middle line:84% into this Canadian major and told him what had happened. 01:06:17.060 --> 01:06:20.210 align:middle line:84% The guy turned him in immediately, just like that, 01:06:20.210 --> 01:06:22.840 align:middle line:90% with no question. 01:06:22.840 --> 01:06:25.150 align:middle line:90% And I saw that constantly. 01:06:25.150 --> 01:06:28.030 align:middle line:84% I mean, nobody in the Air Force who 01:06:28.030 --> 01:06:31.570 align:middle line:84% was engaging in bad activity could have any confidence 01:06:31.570 --> 01:06:35.050 align:middle line:84% that they wouldn't be turned in just like that. 01:06:35.050 --> 01:06:38.440 align:middle line:84% It was the culture of the organization 01:06:38.440 --> 01:06:43.970 align:middle line:84% that people would simply not put up with bad behavior. 01:06:43.970 --> 01:06:45.176 align:middle line:90% This was not a-- 01:06:45.176 --> 01:06:48.202 align:middle line:90% 01:06:48.202 --> 01:06:49.910 align:middle line:84% all the things your mother told you about 01:06:49.910 --> 01:06:51.560 align:middle line:84% don't tattle on your friends, this 01:06:51.560 --> 01:06:54.710 align:middle line:84% was not an operative principle in the Air Force. 01:06:54.710 --> 01:07:01.040 align:middle line:84% People moved very quickly to take appropriate action. 01:07:01.040 --> 01:07:04.070 align:middle line:84% And I felt really good about things like that 01:07:04.070 --> 01:07:10.430 align:middle line:84% because it said that the fundamental loyalty of people 01:07:10.430 --> 01:07:15.880 align:middle line:84% was to the organization, not to some kind of underground buddy 01:07:15.880 --> 01:07:17.414 align:middle line:90% system. 01:07:17.414 --> 01:07:19.680 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I've never experienced anything like that. 01:07:19.680 --> 01:07:20.470 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: What's that? 01:07:20.470 --> 01:07:22.470 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I've never experienced an organization 01:07:22.470 --> 01:07:23.900 align:middle line:90% like that, where it's so clear. 01:07:23.900 --> 01:07:24.900 align:middle line:90% You just turn people in. 01:07:24.900 --> 01:07:25.920 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: You just turn people in. 01:07:25.920 --> 01:07:26.723 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Really? 01:07:26.723 --> 01:07:27.390 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Uh-uh. 01:07:27.390 --> 01:07:28.095 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: Well, it's hard. 01:07:28.095 --> 01:07:30.095 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Just because most of the organizations 01:07:30.095 --> 01:07:32.700 align:middle line:84% I've been affiliated with are school, where friendship-- 01:07:32.700 --> 01:07:34.360 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Is very important. 01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:38.580 align:middle line:84% Well, yeah, I mean, we don't have an honor code here at MIT, 01:07:38.580 --> 01:07:41.160 align:middle line:84% but there's an honor code at the Air Force Academy 01:07:41.160 --> 01:07:43.440 align:middle line:84% and there's also an honor code out at Olin College. 01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:46.050 align:middle line:84% And I basically have been involved in both systems. 01:07:46.050 --> 01:07:49.020 align:middle line:84% And then you get into is this constant tension 01:07:49.020 --> 01:07:52.860 align:middle line:84% between loyalty to your friends and loyalty to the institution. 01:07:52.860 --> 01:07:56.160 align:middle line:84% And the notion of turning someone in 01:07:56.160 --> 01:08:00.680 align:middle line:84% is a tough thing for most young people to deal with. 01:08:00.680 --> 01:08:05.300 align:middle line:84% It takes a long time to rise to a level, I think, 01:08:05.300 --> 01:08:06.890 align:middle line:90% where you see that clearly. 01:08:06.890 --> 01:08:09.410 align:middle line:90% 01:08:09.410 --> 01:08:15.290 align:middle line:84% And if your friend cheats on some exam or something, 01:08:15.290 --> 01:08:19.760 align:middle line:84% you probably would not turn them in. 01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:22.790 align:middle line:84% It's when you get like me, you know, you 01:08:22.790 --> 01:08:25.010 align:middle line:84% get to a certain level, and you just simply-- 01:08:25.010 --> 01:08:26.232 align:middle line:90% "turn them in." 01:08:26.232 --> 01:08:28.497 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, you've seen so many examples. 01:08:28.497 --> 01:08:29.439 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: Well, before you ask your question, 01:08:29.439 --> 01:08:31.460 align:middle line:84% I just want to make one observation. 01:08:31.460 --> 01:08:36.206 align:middle line:84% And that is we have not discussed women's issues yet 01:08:36.206 --> 01:08:38.229 align:middle line:90% in this class. 01:08:38.229 --> 01:08:43.620 align:middle line:84% We started out with some racial issues, 01:08:43.620 --> 01:08:46.010 align:middle line:90% but [INAUDIBLE] about that. 01:08:46.010 --> 01:08:48.890 align:middle line:84% I was hoping that you would bring one up and say that, now, 01:08:48.890 --> 01:08:52.290 align:middle line:84% from this point, right now, on in the class, 01:08:52.290 --> 01:08:56.663 align:middle line:84% women's issues are legitimate fodder for this class. 01:08:56.663 --> 01:08:59.569 align:middle line:84% And I want you all to really gain 01:08:59.569 --> 01:09:02.450 align:middle line:84% from Dr. Widnall's experience because this engineering 01:09:02.450 --> 01:09:04.970 align:middle line:84% game can be pretty tough [INAUDIBLE].. 01:09:04.970 --> 01:09:06.470 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Yeah, I mean, it's-- 01:09:06.470 --> 01:09:07.762 align:middle line:90% PROFESSOR: It's male-dominated. 01:09:07.762 --> 01:09:10.160 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Yeah, very much so. 01:09:10.160 --> 01:09:13.020 align:middle line:84% But there are lots of humorous things that happen. 01:09:13.020 --> 01:09:16.490 align:middle line:84% You have to have a good sense of humor in a situation like this. 01:09:16.490 --> 01:09:20.600 align:middle line:84% But again, getting back to MIT, back in 1970, 01:09:20.600 --> 01:09:23.680 align:middle line:84% MIT began to take this issue seriously. 01:09:23.680 --> 01:09:28.875 align:middle line:84% And we had a women's faculty group. 01:09:28.875 --> 01:09:30.359 align:middle line:90% It was a mentoring group. 01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:33.960 align:middle line:84% We met with the senior administration of MIT. 01:09:33.960 --> 01:09:38.460 align:middle line:84% They said, we are going to take this seriously. 01:09:38.460 --> 01:09:39.990 align:middle line:84% And we said, you're lucky to have us 01:09:39.990 --> 01:09:41.532 align:middle line:84% because we're really good and we will 01:09:41.532 --> 01:09:44.010 align:middle line:90% help you solve this problem. 01:09:44.010 --> 01:09:46.420 align:middle line:84% So we didn't want anyone to lower its standards. 01:09:46.420 --> 01:09:53.340 align:middle line:84% But no, it's a very, very complex issue 01:09:53.340 --> 01:09:57.260 align:middle line:84% because it's so culturally related. 01:09:57.260 --> 01:10:02.670 align:middle line:90% 01:10:02.670 --> 01:10:08.610 align:middle line:84% But at some level-- of course, I'm so far beyond all of this 01:10:08.610 --> 01:10:10.170 align:middle line:90% now. 01:10:10.170 --> 01:10:13.680 align:middle line:84% I come out swinging every time I get in a situation 01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:15.650 align:middle line:90% where this becomes an issue. 01:10:15.650 --> 01:10:17.190 align:middle line:90% I come out swinging. 01:10:17.190 --> 01:10:18.870 align:middle line:90% But not everybody can do that. 01:10:18.870 --> 01:10:23.630 align:middle line:90% 01:10:23.630 --> 01:10:26.465 align:middle line:84% As you move through your life, you-- 01:10:26.465 --> 01:10:30.770 align:middle line:84% I always tell people, I only pick battles I can win. 01:10:30.770 --> 01:10:36.320 align:middle line:84% So I don't react to every slight. 01:10:36.320 --> 01:10:38.560 align:middle line:90% Most of them, I just kind of go. 01:10:38.560 --> 01:10:40.310 align:middle line:84% But of course, as I've gotten more senior, 01:10:40.310 --> 01:10:44.030 align:middle line:84% there are more I can win so I take on more of them. 01:10:44.030 --> 01:10:49.290 align:middle line:84% But I think society is changing in a dramatic way. 01:10:49.290 --> 01:10:52.190 align:middle line:84% And of course, I think MIT is a very special place. 01:10:52.190 --> 01:10:54.710 align:middle line:84% Our high percentage of women students, 01:10:54.710 --> 01:10:58.280 align:middle line:84% our real commitment to women faculty, 01:10:58.280 --> 01:11:02.660 align:middle line:84% the sheer numbers, the critical mass, the momentum, all of that 01:11:02.660 --> 01:11:05.990 align:middle line:84% has changed this place dramatically. 01:11:05.990 --> 01:11:09.380 align:middle line:84% The question I have is, what is it like when you get out 01:11:09.380 --> 01:11:12.530 align:middle line:90% to the outside world? 01:11:12.530 --> 01:11:16.760 align:middle line:84% I don't know much about that, but I suspect 01:11:16.760 --> 01:11:18.530 align:middle line:84% it's different in different fields-- 01:11:18.530 --> 01:11:21.740 align:middle line:84% nuclear engineering, construction, 01:11:21.740 --> 01:11:24.080 align:middle line:90% environmental probably great. 01:11:24.080 --> 01:11:25.850 align:middle line:84% There are certain obvious places you 01:11:25.850 --> 01:11:28.843 align:middle line:84% could go where you would find a high percentage of women, 01:11:28.843 --> 01:11:31.010 align:middle line:84% but there are certain other places where it's really 01:11:31.010 --> 01:11:35.440 align:middle line:90% quite an old boys' network. 01:11:35.440 --> 01:11:40.905 align:middle line:84% I do think it's changing, just changing very dramatically. 01:11:40.905 --> 01:11:42.780 align:middle line:84% PROFESSOR: I think we have time for one more, 01:11:42.780 --> 01:11:44.160 align:middle line:84% and then you've got the last word. 01:11:44.160 --> 01:11:44.952 align:middle line:90% SHEILA WIDNALL: OK. 01:11:44.952 --> 01:11:47.110 align:middle line:90% 01:11:47.110 --> 01:11:50.200 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I was just interested in the previous three or four 01:11:50.200 --> 01:11:50.740 align:middle line:90% questions. 01:11:50.740 --> 01:11:54.450 align:middle line:84% They were more hierarchical issues 01:11:54.450 --> 01:11:57.250 align:middle line:90% with authority and ethics. 01:11:57.250 --> 01:12:00.340 align:middle line:84% And I think the situation we find ourselves in is also 01:12:00.340 --> 01:12:03.430 align:middle line:84% sort of the lateral, collaborative issues where 01:12:03.430 --> 01:12:09.610 align:middle line:84% international or gender challenges present themselves. 01:12:09.610 --> 01:12:12.810 align:middle line:84% And I was just wondering if you could comment anything 01:12:12.810 --> 01:12:17.340 align:middle line:84% about where you draw the line in terms of trying to influence 01:12:17.340 --> 01:12:21.652 align:middle line:84% your ethical standards with somebody else's, whether they 01:12:21.652 --> 01:12:26.500 align:middle line:84% be internationally different than yours or the organization 01:12:26.500 --> 01:12:28.900 align:middle line:90% that they're in. 01:12:28.900 --> 01:12:30.823 align:middle line:84% Can you talk about that a little bit? 01:12:30.823 --> 01:12:32.240 align:middle line:84% SHEILA WIDNALL: Well, I don't know 01:12:32.240 --> 01:12:34.190 align:middle line:90% if I'd be too coherent on that. 01:12:34.190 --> 01:12:40.850 align:middle line:84% I certainly have great concern, on a global scale, 01:12:40.850 --> 01:12:45.460 align:middle line:84% about the various ethical positions 01:12:45.460 --> 01:12:46.840 align:middle line:90% that various groups take. 01:12:46.840 --> 01:12:51.460 align:middle line:90% 01:12:51.460 --> 01:12:54.340 align:middle line:84% I'm obviously concerned about women in the large 01:12:54.340 --> 01:12:57.644 align:middle line:84% when you talk about the global ethics. 01:12:57.644 --> 01:13:03.130 align:middle line:90% 01:13:03.130 --> 01:13:05.020 align:middle line:84% The environments that I've been in 01:13:05.020 --> 01:13:07.720 align:middle line:84% have been very comfortable environments. 01:13:07.720 --> 01:13:15.010 align:middle line:84% I've hardly ever had to really challenge anybody very much. 01:13:15.010 --> 01:13:19.240 align:middle line:90% 01:13:19.240 --> 01:13:24.130 align:middle line:84% I think most people around here, if there's 01:13:24.130 --> 01:13:27.070 align:middle line:84% a need for a challenge, it's a little push. 01:13:27.070 --> 01:13:30.415 align:middle line:84% Just a little push is all it takes. 01:13:30.415 --> 01:13:33.780 align:middle line:90% 01:13:33.780 --> 01:13:35.550 align:middle line:84% And I'm trying to think of situations 01:13:35.550 --> 01:13:37.410 align:middle line:90% where that comes about. 01:13:37.410 --> 01:13:40.230 align:middle line:84% For example, imagine hiring faculty. 01:13:40.230 --> 01:13:43.410 align:middle line:84% You're in a search committee, and you're hiring faculty 01:13:43.410 --> 01:13:46.740 align:middle line:84% and you're looking at women and minorities. 01:13:46.740 --> 01:13:48.870 align:middle line:84% And sometimes you have to push a group 01:13:48.870 --> 01:13:51.300 align:middle line:84% like that a little bit to get them 01:13:51.300 --> 01:13:54.630 align:middle line:84% to think more globally to get them to not make assumptions 01:13:54.630 --> 01:13:58.860 align:middle line:84% about people based on race or gender-- 01:13:58.860 --> 01:14:00.570 align:middle line:90% just a little push. 01:14:00.570 --> 01:14:05.560 align:middle line:84% Because this institution, I think, really does respond. 01:14:05.560 --> 01:14:07.740 align:middle line:84% So I think, in a situation like that, 01:14:07.740 --> 01:14:10.140 align:middle line:84% it is an issue you're conscious of, 01:14:10.140 --> 01:14:16.680 align:middle line:84% but just a little push is really all it takes to move it. 01:14:16.680 --> 01:14:19.710 align:middle line:84% Then there are obviously other issues 01:14:19.710 --> 01:14:21.870 align:middle line:90% in which there's no compromise. 01:14:21.870 --> 01:14:24.150 align:middle line:84% And I would say the issue of academic integrity 01:14:24.150 --> 01:14:27.060 align:middle line:84% is one for which there is no compromise. 01:14:27.060 --> 01:14:32.790 align:middle line:84% And so you would just basically lay out those basic principles 01:14:32.790 --> 01:14:37.020 align:middle line:84% and just make sure that people understood. 01:14:37.020 --> 01:14:40.380 align:middle line:84% Because I think the importance of an issue like that 01:14:40.380 --> 01:14:45.420 align:middle line:84% is, if you present it properly, it is so obviously right. 01:14:45.420 --> 01:14:51.010 align:middle line:84% It's not a matter for discussion if you present it right. 01:14:51.010 --> 01:14:56.450 align:middle line:84% And so this organization will respond. 01:14:56.450 --> 01:14:59.530 align:middle line:84% I've just not been in situations where people were cheating 01:14:59.530 --> 01:15:04.150 align:middle line:84% or stealing or that sort of thing, and not 01:15:04.150 --> 01:15:06.670 align:middle line:84% likely to be at this point, because everybody knows I'll 01:15:06.670 --> 01:15:07.708 align:middle line:90% turn them in. 01:15:07.708 --> 01:15:15.450 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] It's just not an issue.