WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.570 align:middle line:90% 00:00:00.570 --> 00:00:02.370 align:middle line:84% The following content is provided 00:00:02.370 --> 00:00:06.330 align:middle line:84% by MIT OpenCourseWare under a Creative Commons license. 00:00:06.330 --> 00:00:08.430 align:middle line:84% Additional information about our license 00:00:08.430 --> 00:00:10.800 align:middle line:84% and MIT OpenCourseWare in general 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:15.105 align:middle line:90% is available at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:15.105 --> 00:00:20.950 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So Carl Jung was a student of Freud. 00:00:20.950 --> 00:00:28.890 align:middle line:84% And one of the things that he was interested in was dreams. 00:00:28.890 --> 00:00:34.650 align:middle line:84% And one of the things he's famous for 00:00:34.650 --> 00:00:38.110 align:middle line:84% is what he calls artifacts in dreams. 00:00:38.110 --> 00:00:39.690 align:middle line:90% Can you see OK? 00:00:39.690 --> 00:00:44.740 align:middle line:84% And what an artifact for him is an object 00:00:44.740 --> 00:00:51.000 align:middle line:84% in a dream that is independent of space and time. 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.270 align:middle line:84% No matter what country you are in, no matter 00:00:54.270 --> 00:00:57.330 align:middle line:84% what period of life you live in, there 00:00:57.330 --> 00:01:01.290 align:middle line:84% will be certain characters in your dreams that everybody has. 00:01:01.290 --> 00:01:03.015 align:middle line:90% And one of them is the dragon. 00:01:03.015 --> 00:01:05.960 align:middle line:90% 00:01:05.960 --> 00:01:08.270 align:middle line:84% There might be slightly different meanings. 00:01:08.270 --> 00:01:10.280 align:middle line:84% But he looked at these artifacts. 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:14.070 align:middle line:90% 00:01:14.070 --> 00:01:17.480 align:middle line:84% Joseph Campbell is a mythologist, 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:18.355 align:middle line:90% or was a mythologist. 00:01:18.355 --> 00:01:21.010 align:middle line:90% He recently passed on. 00:01:21.010 --> 00:01:24.400 align:middle line:84% And he learned very much from Carl Jung. 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:31.810 align:middle line:84% And Joseph Campbell discovered that there are certain dream 00:01:31.810 --> 00:01:33.147 align:middle line:90% structures which he-- 00:01:33.147 --> 00:01:34.480 align:middle line:90% I'm sorry, not dream structures. 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:36.700 align:middle line:84% There are certain mythologies that 00:01:36.700 --> 00:01:41.110 align:middle line:84% are present in all cultures over all time. 00:01:41.110 --> 00:01:45.690 align:middle line:84% One of them is the hero's journey. 00:01:45.690 --> 00:01:48.990 align:middle line:84% And this mythology, he says, you can 00:01:48.990 --> 00:01:52.920 align:middle line:84% find in various forms in any culture 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.680 align:middle line:90% over pretty much any time. 00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:59.610 align:middle line:84% This particular one is Raphael's St. George and the Dragon. 00:01:59.610 --> 00:02:02.580 align:middle line:84% St. George is the patron saint of England. 00:02:02.580 --> 00:02:06.705 align:middle line:84% And it gives a good idea of what the myth is trying to do. 00:02:06.705 --> 00:02:09.690 align:middle line:90% 00:02:09.690 --> 00:02:11.820 align:middle line:84% In this particular myth, it's trying 00:02:11.820 --> 00:02:16.690 align:middle line:84% to be a metaphor for the biggest problems you 00:02:16.690 --> 00:02:19.810 align:middle line:90% will have in your life. 00:02:19.810 --> 00:02:22.120 align:middle line:84% The metaphor says that in order to solve 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:28.610 align:middle line:84% the big problems in your life, you have to come to a feeling, 00:02:28.610 --> 00:02:31.550 align:middle line:84% and I mean that literally now because we're not 00:02:31.550 --> 00:02:34.415 align:middle line:84% talking scientifically here, wherein 00:02:34.415 --> 00:02:39.080 align:middle line:84% you are willing to put your life at risk, 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:45.450 align:middle line:84% even offer up your life for a higher cause then self. 00:02:45.450 --> 00:02:49.050 align:middle line:84% And that in order to be successful, 00:02:49.050 --> 00:02:53.920 align:middle line:84% you have to go from the daylight, the white horse, 00:02:53.920 --> 00:02:58.300 align:middle line:84% into your subconscious, the dark, 00:02:58.300 --> 00:03:04.110 align:middle line:84% and find a dragon down there that is hiding some truth that 00:03:04.110 --> 00:03:06.870 align:middle line:84% is in-between where you are with your problem 00:03:06.870 --> 00:03:08.530 align:middle line:90% and where your solution lies. 00:03:08.530 --> 00:03:13.430 align:middle line:84% And you have to face that dragon and slay it. 00:03:13.430 --> 00:03:15.110 align:middle line:84% One of the things I tell students 00:03:15.110 --> 00:03:18.350 align:middle line:84% is that when you get out, you're going to be big and successful. 00:03:18.350 --> 00:03:25.080 align:middle line:84% And the president, CEO, says, we're going to make this-- 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:30.470 align:middle line:84% have this big contract association tomorrow. 00:03:30.470 --> 00:03:32.820 align:middle line:84% The Japanese are coming in here with a billion dollars 00:03:32.820 --> 00:03:33.480 align:middle line:90% in their hands. 00:03:33.480 --> 00:03:35.630 align:middle line:90% And we need that money. 00:03:35.630 --> 00:03:40.270 align:middle line:84% We want you to lead the negotiations. 00:03:40.270 --> 00:03:41.500 align:middle line:90% You go home that night. 00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:45.025 align:middle line:84% Your significant other has a nice hot bath, 00:03:45.025 --> 00:03:47.020 align:middle line:90% a nice cocktail ready for you. 00:03:47.020 --> 00:03:49.306 align:middle line:90% And the phone rings. 00:03:49.306 --> 00:03:51.395 align:middle line:84% You sent your kids to the in-laws. 00:03:51.395 --> 00:03:57.090 align:middle line:90% 00:03:57.090 --> 00:04:00.240 align:middle line:84% Your significant other's mother says 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:04.925 align:middle line:84% that your 12-year-old has been hit by a car down in Texas. 00:04:04.925 --> 00:04:08.230 align:middle line:90% It looks pretty bad. 00:04:08.230 --> 00:04:09.640 align:middle line:90% Do you go to Texas? 00:04:09.640 --> 00:04:12.610 align:middle line:84% Or do you go to negotiate that problem? 00:04:12.610 --> 00:04:15.490 align:middle line:84% Of course, I don't have the answer. 00:04:15.490 --> 00:04:17.470 align:middle line:84% The method is to find out if there's 00:04:17.470 --> 00:04:20.459 align:middle line:84% anything in your unconscious, there's 00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:24.030 align:middle line:84% any truth in your unconscious, that you need to be released. 00:04:24.030 --> 00:04:28.720 align:middle line:84% For example, your ambition, you'll 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.190 align:middle line:84% need to conquer that before you can 00:04:30.190 --> 00:04:32.330 align:middle line:90% solve this particular problem. 00:04:32.330 --> 00:04:35.080 align:middle line:84% So you go down and you find your ambition. 00:04:35.080 --> 00:04:36.040 align:middle line:90% You slay it. 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:37.600 align:middle line:90% You bring it back. 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:39.550 align:middle line:84% And you share the goods with everybody. 00:04:39.550 --> 00:04:42.760 align:middle line:84% That's the anatomy of the hero's journey. 00:04:42.760 --> 00:04:44.530 align:middle line:90% And we say that we find that-- 00:04:44.530 --> 00:04:46.600 align:middle line:84% Joseph Campbell says, and I believe him, 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:50.020 align:middle line:84% that we find that in all cultures. 00:04:50.020 --> 00:04:56.200 align:middle line:84% Noam Chomsky, whom all but two of us here know better than-- 00:04:56.200 --> 00:05:02.200 align:middle line:84% know very well, said that the brain is hardwired. 00:05:02.200 --> 00:05:07.090 align:middle line:90% 00:05:07.090 --> 00:05:07.960 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:05:07.960 --> 00:05:09.460 align:middle line:90% I did this once before. 00:05:09.460 --> 00:05:13.620 align:middle line:84% The brain is hardwired for certain language structures 00:05:13.620 --> 00:05:18.290 align:middle line:84% independent of culture, independent of time. 00:05:18.290 --> 00:05:22.250 align:middle line:84% Jerome Seymour Bruner said, taking up 00:05:22.250 --> 00:05:28.500 align:middle line:84% from Noam Chomsky, that if you want to get understanding 00:05:28.500 --> 00:05:34.540 align:middle line:84% from language, then that's one thing that Chomsky 00:05:34.540 --> 00:05:35.650 align:middle line:90% is talking about. 00:05:35.650 --> 00:05:39.230 align:middle line:84% But if you want to get meaning from language, 00:05:39.230 --> 00:05:43.610 align:middle line:84% you have to see what you have talked about in the context 00:05:43.610 --> 00:05:46.450 align:middle line:90% of a story. 00:05:46.450 --> 00:05:50.910 align:middle line:84% That even when you write the descent of man, 00:05:50.910 --> 00:05:52.060 align:middle line:90% it has story turns. 00:05:52.060 --> 00:05:55.230 align:middle line:84% There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. 00:05:55.230 --> 00:05:57.400 align:middle line:90% There is a causative sequence. 00:05:57.400 --> 00:05:59.670 align:middle line:90% There's a point of view. 00:05:59.670 --> 00:06:01.320 align:middle line:90% A point is made. 00:06:01.320 --> 00:06:03.060 align:middle line:90% There is a mood. 00:06:03.060 --> 00:06:07.680 align:middle line:84% And he says, these structures of the brain 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:09.600 align:middle line:90% are hardwired in the brain. 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.260 align:middle line:90% 00:06:12.260 --> 00:06:19.070 align:middle line:84% Last semester, I met William [INAUDIBLE] right over in ESD. 00:06:19.070 --> 00:06:22.310 align:middle line:84% And he is a major in the Air Force. 00:06:22.310 --> 00:06:24.710 align:middle line:84% He was doing a sabbatical up at Harvard. 00:06:24.710 --> 00:06:26.420 align:middle line:90% He's an ethicist. 00:06:26.420 --> 00:06:31.280 align:middle line:84% His collaborator was a brain and cognitive scientist. 00:06:31.280 --> 00:06:36.410 align:middle line:84% And what they were doing was mapping out 00:06:36.410 --> 00:06:39.200 align:middle line:84% the parts of the mind that are active when 00:06:39.200 --> 00:06:40.445 align:middle line:90% a story is being told. 00:06:40.445 --> 00:06:43.030 align:middle line:90% 00:06:43.030 --> 00:06:46.450 align:middle line:84% They were interested in how the story is manifest 00:06:46.450 --> 00:06:48.920 align:middle line:84% not so much in the mind, what I am interested in, 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:50.750 align:middle line:90% but in the brain. 00:06:50.750 --> 00:06:57.470 align:middle line:84% So the hard science of stories is being picked up now. 00:06:57.470 --> 00:07:03.450 align:middle line:84% And Cynthia Winston is interested in the story. 00:07:03.450 --> 00:07:05.170 align:middle line:90% She's a psychologist. 00:07:05.170 --> 00:07:10.300 align:middle line:84% She's interested in the story in terms of therapy. 00:07:10.300 --> 00:07:12.690 align:middle line:84% Now my best way of describing what she does 00:07:12.690 --> 00:07:15.380 align:middle line:90% is to use a metaphor. 00:07:15.380 --> 00:07:24.160 align:middle line:84% I learned from a psychologist once who did therapy using art. 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:28.480 align:middle line:84% She had different populations of children. 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:33.880 align:middle line:84% One population of children had deep problems with insecurity 00:07:33.880 --> 00:07:37.060 align:middle line:84% and could not voice their problem. 00:07:37.060 --> 00:07:39.002 align:middle line:84% Another population was what I guess you 00:07:39.002 --> 00:07:40.210 align:middle line:90% could call ordinary children. 00:07:40.210 --> 00:07:42.490 align:middle line:90% They didn't have a particular-- 00:07:42.490 --> 00:07:44.570 align:middle line:84% exhibit those particular symptoms. 00:07:44.570 --> 00:07:48.170 align:middle line:84% She had them paint pictures of themselves. 00:07:48.170 --> 00:07:52.070 align:middle line:84% And what she found out was that the insecure population 00:07:52.070 --> 00:07:55.560 align:middle line:84% would paint a picture of themselves without arms. 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.490 align:middle line:84% The hands would come straight out at the body. 00:07:58.490 --> 00:08:02.710 align:middle line:84% So you can learn something about a person and about 00:08:02.710 --> 00:08:06.700 align:middle line:84% what's in their unconscious by looking at the, five 00:08:06.700 --> 00:08:10.750 align:middle line:84% minutes, looking at the way they paint pictures. 00:08:10.750 --> 00:08:12.340 align:middle line:84% Cynthia Winston is in the business 00:08:12.340 --> 00:08:13.780 align:middle line:84% of doing very much the same thing, 00:08:13.780 --> 00:08:16.730 align:middle line:90% but having them tell a story. 00:08:16.730 --> 00:08:18.700 align:middle line:84% And she can synthesize many things out 00:08:18.700 --> 00:08:21.550 align:middle line:84% of the way they tell a story, things that they 00:08:21.550 --> 00:08:23.350 align:middle line:90% don't consciously know about. 00:08:23.350 --> 00:08:25.970 align:middle line:90% 00:08:25.970 --> 00:08:29.090 align:middle line:84% This is a good segue way to Segun. 00:08:29.090 --> 00:08:34.940 align:middle line:84% And I will hazard a few burning questions if you have them now. 00:08:34.940 --> 00:08:39.320 align:middle line:84% And otherwise, I will expect any other questions to come up 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:40.640 align:middle line:90% at the end of the Q&A period. 00:08:40.640 --> 00:08:41.590 align:middle line:90% Is that fair enough? 00:08:41.590 --> 00:08:44.090 align:middle line:84% So if you have something, put something on the table with me 00:08:44.090 --> 00:08:44.590 align:middle line:90% now. 00:08:44.590 --> 00:08:47.510 align:middle line:90% 00:08:47.510 --> 00:08:49.937 align:middle line:90% Then thank you very much. 00:08:49.937 --> 00:08:52.799 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:56.250 align:middle line:90% 00:08:56.250 --> 00:09:01.000 align:middle line:90% I need your USB drive. 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:03.826 align:middle line:90% [SIDE CONVERSATION] 00:09:03.826 --> 00:09:04.201 align:middle line:90% 00:09:04.201 --> 00:09:06.534 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER 1: You want to get set up, Dr. Gbadegesin? 00:09:06.534 --> 00:09:07.600 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Right. 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:09.433 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: He was-- you want to use your-- 00:09:09.433 --> 00:09:13.706 align:middle line:90% 00:09:13.706 --> 00:09:14.210 align:middle line:90% all right. 00:09:14.210 --> 00:09:16.460 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER 1: While they're doing that, I'll just-- 00:09:16.460 --> 00:09:19.460 align:middle line:84% I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Gbadesgesin 00:09:19.460 --> 00:09:20.540 align:middle line:90% to you all. 00:09:20.540 --> 00:09:22.760 align:middle line:84% Dr. Gbadesgesin told me this morning 00:09:22.760 --> 00:09:25.250 align:middle line:84% that he fell in love with philosophy 00:09:25.250 --> 00:09:27.800 align:middle line:84% in his second year of college when he took a philosophy 00:09:27.800 --> 00:09:29.600 align:middle line:90% course unexpectedly. 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:33.200 align:middle line:84% And since then, it's brought a world of opportunities 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:34.970 align:middle line:90% and scholarship to him. 00:09:34.970 --> 00:09:38.390 align:middle line:84% He completed his PhD in philosophy 00:09:38.390 --> 00:09:41.330 align:middle line:84% at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. 00:09:41.330 --> 00:09:45.140 align:middle line:84% And then, he went to Nigeria and was a professor there 00:09:45.140 --> 00:09:48.200 align:middle line:84% for nine years, a professor of philosophy in Nigeria 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:50.720 align:middle line:84% and then journeyed back to the United States 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.350 align:middle line:84% to Howard University and was a department 00:09:54.350 --> 00:09:55.940 align:middle line:84% chair of the Department of Philosophy 00:09:55.940 --> 00:09:58.970 align:middle line:84% at Howard for 11 years, and is now a professor 00:09:58.970 --> 00:10:02.000 align:middle line:90% there, professor of philosophy. 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.330 align:middle line:84% He specializes now in cross-cultural ethics 00:10:05.330 --> 00:10:06.710 align:middle line:90% and bioethics. 00:10:06.710 --> 00:10:10.620 align:middle line:84% And that will be the topic of his talk today. 00:10:10.620 --> 00:10:11.798 align:middle line:90% So welcome, Dr. Gbadesgesin. 00:10:11.798 --> 00:10:12.965 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Thank you. 00:10:12.965 --> 00:10:14.390 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 1: Thank you. 00:10:14.390 --> 00:10:15.960 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:17.210 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 1: Let me just-- 00:10:17.210 --> 00:10:18.877 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: We're going to-- he's going 00:10:18.877 --> 00:10:23.675 align:middle line:84% to copy this on a USB drive and plug it in. 00:10:23.675 --> 00:10:28.130 align:middle line:84% In the meantime, I've worked with Segun before. 00:10:28.130 --> 00:10:37.070 align:middle line:84% And the things that he is going to tell you about 00:10:37.070 --> 00:10:45.740 align:middle line:84% will be not just differences in an ethical understanding 00:10:45.740 --> 00:10:50.340 align:middle line:84% in various cultures, but how underlying the differences, 00:10:50.340 --> 00:10:52.370 align:middle line:90% there are similarities. 00:10:52.370 --> 00:10:55.610 align:middle line:84% And that the way to deal with ethical differences 00:10:55.610 --> 00:10:57.770 align:middle line:84% is to first appreciate the difference, 00:10:57.770 --> 00:11:00.080 align:middle line:90% but then see the similarities. 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:02.570 align:middle line:84% That really, we're talking about ethical situations 00:11:02.570 --> 00:11:06.338 align:middle line:84% in which are very much like our own 00:11:06.338 --> 00:11:07.880 align:middle line:84% when you get down to a certain level. 00:11:07.880 --> 00:11:11.270 align:middle line:84% And he's one that can pick out that level 00:11:11.270 --> 00:11:12.870 align:middle line:90% and tell us about it. 00:11:12.870 --> 00:11:15.805 align:middle line:84% So just be patient with us for about two minutes while he 00:11:15.805 --> 00:11:17.840 align:middle line:90% uploads that. 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:21.500 align:middle line:84% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Let me say how honored I am to be here 00:11:21.500 --> 00:11:27.000 align:middle line:90% and to be working-- 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:28.010 align:middle line:90% no, that's not it. 00:11:28.010 --> 00:11:31.580 align:middle line:84% Yeah, so working on this project with Taft 00:11:31.580 --> 00:11:36.950 align:middle line:90% has been an honor for me. 00:11:36.950 --> 00:11:43.680 align:middle line:84% And I'm looking forward to further work on this issue. 00:11:43.680 --> 00:11:49.450 align:middle line:84% I want to talk about the moral weight of culture and ethics. 00:11:49.450 --> 00:11:54.930 align:middle line:84% I am not going to talk about differences as such. 00:11:54.930 --> 00:12:02.770 align:middle line:84% I'm going to talk about what brings all cultures together, 00:12:02.770 --> 00:12:06.930 align:middle line:84% in other words, the foundational principles that 00:12:06.930 --> 00:12:11.640 align:middle line:84% seem to me to be at the basis of our cultural traditions. 00:12:11.640 --> 00:12:17.100 align:middle line:84% And that, I think, is a nonrelativist approach 00:12:17.100 --> 00:12:19.440 align:middle line:90% to cross-cultural ethics. 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:26.730 align:middle line:84% In other words, my view is that in spite of the surface 00:12:26.730 --> 00:12:31.740 align:middle line:84% differences across cultures, there 00:12:31.740 --> 00:12:36.600 align:middle line:84% are certain unifying principles at the bottom 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:39.540 align:middle line:90% of all cultural traditions. 00:12:39.540 --> 00:12:47.760 align:middle line:84% And these principles are what I would focus on 00:12:47.760 --> 00:12:54.270 align:middle line:84% and what I think bring a common humanity into focus. 00:12:54.270 --> 00:12:56.990 align:middle line:90% 00:12:56.990 --> 00:12:59.660 align:middle line:90% I start, I'm not an engineer. 00:12:59.660 --> 00:13:00.950 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:13:00.950 --> 00:13:07.670 align:middle line:84% So I am a forerunner to what Taft is going to say. 00:13:07.670 --> 00:13:15.950 align:middle line:84% But I start with some cases in Engineering Ethics. 00:13:15.950 --> 00:13:21.980 align:middle line:84% I do this mostly for about ethics, 00:13:21.980 --> 00:13:25.190 align:middle line:90% cross-culture about ethics. 00:13:25.190 --> 00:13:30.830 align:middle line:84% But I have brought these various cases, 00:13:30.830 --> 00:13:33.830 align:middle line:84% three cases in all, what I consider 00:13:33.830 --> 00:13:41.060 align:middle line:84% to be cases that I can lean to issues in Engineering Ethics. 00:13:41.060 --> 00:13:43.580 align:middle line:84% This is a case of an African country 00:13:43.580 --> 00:13:51.230 align:middle line:84% that has no rules against giving gifts to public officials. 00:13:51.230 --> 00:13:54.740 align:middle line:90% It's a country of anything goes. 00:13:54.740 --> 00:13:59.660 align:middle line:84% The president of Nigeria actually had an article on this 00:13:59.660 --> 00:14:02.500 align:middle line:84% sometime, because in the country of anything goes. 00:14:02.500 --> 00:14:04.230 align:middle line:84% So you can take Nigeria as an example. 00:14:04.230 --> 00:14:06.680 align:middle line:90% That's where I come from anyway. 00:14:06.680 --> 00:14:11.810 align:middle line:84% So a US-based company is interested in a project that 00:14:11.810 --> 00:14:15.950 align:middle line:84% promises to be profitable and, of course, professionally 00:14:15.950 --> 00:14:17.780 align:middle line:90% satisfying. 00:14:17.780 --> 00:14:20.180 align:middle line:84% And there is an Indigenous engineer 00:14:20.180 --> 00:14:25.430 align:middle line:84% who promises to facilitate the business with the proviso 00:14:25.430 --> 00:14:29.720 align:middle line:84% that, well, the company must be prepared to give something 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:31.793 align:middle line:90% to the public officials. 00:14:31.793 --> 00:14:34.280 align:middle line:90% That's what's expected. 00:14:34.280 --> 00:14:37.067 align:middle line:84% But of course, that deal will be kept secret. 00:14:37.067 --> 00:14:38.150 align:middle line:90% No one will know about it. 00:14:38.150 --> 00:14:41.360 align:middle line:90% And everyone will be happy. 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:47.990 align:middle line:84% The US company is supposedly to be 00:14:47.990 --> 00:14:55.130 align:middle line:84% covered by the provisions of the Federal Corrupt Practices Act 00:14:55.130 --> 00:15:00.020 align:middle line:84% and the NSP Code of Professional Ethics. 00:15:00.020 --> 00:15:02.630 align:middle line:84% So the question is, should that company 00:15:02.630 --> 00:15:09.230 align:middle line:84% give in to the Indigenous engineers' promises or proposal 00:15:09.230 --> 00:15:13.340 align:middle line:90% for facilitating the project? 00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:18.420 align:middle line:84% In bioethics, there is a similar issue. 00:15:18.420 --> 00:15:22.170 align:middle line:84% Namely, well, there are differences 00:15:22.170 --> 00:15:25.520 align:middle line:90% within ethical traditions. 00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:27.770 align:middle line:84% African countries and other third world 00:15:27.770 --> 00:15:30.440 align:middle line:84% or developing countries have their own ethical traditions. 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.650 align:middle line:84% So they should not be imposed upon by the regulations that 00:15:33.650 --> 00:15:40.190 align:middle line:84% govern US restrictions, that have here restrictions. 00:15:40.190 --> 00:15:45.080 align:middle line:84% And people go in there sometimes with that mindset. 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:49.850 align:middle line:84% And of course, what they cannot do in the US, 00:15:49.850 --> 00:15:53.600 align:middle line:84% they do it in those countries, again, 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:59.030 align:middle line:84% under the pretext that different ethical traditions hold. 00:15:59.030 --> 00:16:03.230 align:middle line:84% If we look at this, and we'll look at it later on, 00:16:03.230 --> 00:16:10.520 align:middle line:84% I would love to know what views about that case. 00:16:10.520 --> 00:16:14.240 align:middle line:84% Now the environmental degradation 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:18.150 align:middle line:84% and multinational conflicts, this is especially the case 00:16:18.150 --> 00:16:18.650 align:middle line:90% again. 00:16:18.650 --> 00:16:22.670 align:middle line:84% And here is a prime example, where in the Niger Delta area, 00:16:22.670 --> 00:16:26.420 align:middle line:84% many was not aware of that because of the militants 00:16:26.420 --> 00:16:29.070 align:middle line:84% roaming about the place kidnapping people 00:16:29.070 --> 00:16:31.670 align:middle line:84% and sometimes killing people, because they 00:16:31.670 --> 00:16:36.170 align:middle line:84% are upset about the environmental degradation that 00:16:36.170 --> 00:16:43.560 align:middle line:84% is caused by oil companies drilling their various lands. 00:16:43.560 --> 00:16:46.940 align:middle line:84% This is the land that they live upon. 00:16:46.940 --> 00:16:51.500 align:middle line:84% Most of the Niger Delta people are fishers, fishermen 00:16:51.500 --> 00:16:53.630 align:middle line:90% and agriculturalists. 00:16:53.630 --> 00:16:57.830 align:middle line:84% With pollution, they cannot catch fish because the fish are 00:16:57.830 --> 00:16:58.640 align:middle line:90% no longer there. 00:16:58.640 --> 00:17:02.090 align:middle line:84% And of course, they have no land to farm. 00:17:02.090 --> 00:17:05.329 align:middle line:84% So the question, of course, is whether these conflicts coming 00:17:05.329 --> 00:17:08.660 align:middle line:84% from other countries to do drilling 00:17:08.660 --> 00:17:13.490 align:middle line:84% for petroleum engineering and so on, they 00:17:13.490 --> 00:17:16.760 align:middle line:84% have legal standards in their own countries. 00:17:16.760 --> 00:17:18.829 align:middle line:84% They have professional associations 00:17:18.829 --> 00:17:21.230 align:middle line:90% with strong codes of ethics. 00:17:21.230 --> 00:17:24.349 align:middle line:84% Should the weak ethical systems of the local cultures 00:17:24.349 --> 00:17:27.470 align:middle line:84% in which they operate be the guidelines 00:17:27.470 --> 00:17:29.000 align:middle line:90% that they should follow? 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.110 align:middle line:84% Or should they follow the guidelines, ethical guidelines, 00:17:33.110 --> 00:17:37.170 align:middle line:84% that are in operation in their own countries? 00:17:37.170 --> 00:17:40.130 align:middle line:84% Again, similar to what happens in bioethics, 00:17:40.130 --> 00:17:43.490 align:middle line:84% many of the multinational companies 00:17:43.490 --> 00:17:48.200 align:middle line:84% operate on the basis of anything goes in those other countries. 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:52.790 align:middle line:84% Is there a professional ethical issue here? 00:17:52.790 --> 00:17:57.920 align:middle line:84% Now from modern nationals, professionals 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:00.830 align:middle line:84% from other countries to Indigenous 00:18:00.830 --> 00:18:06.205 align:middle line:90% contractors, the same issue. 00:18:06.205 --> 00:18:08.480 align:middle line:84% This is a case of a private building 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:13.640 align:middle line:84% company which secured a contract for putting up an apartment 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:15.980 align:middle line:90% complex. 00:18:15.980 --> 00:18:20.320 align:middle line:84% The owner of the company, an Indigenous building contractor 00:18:20.320 --> 00:18:24.970 align:middle line:84% this time, received 50% payment, down payment. 00:18:24.970 --> 00:18:31.050 align:middle line:84% But of course, typical, he used substantiate-- 00:18:31.050 --> 00:18:37.875 align:middle line:90% substandard materials. 00:18:37.875 --> 00:18:38.988 align:middle line:90% I've already seen this. 00:18:38.988 --> 00:18:40.530 align:middle line:84% So potentially, a part of the payment 00:18:40.530 --> 00:18:43.350 align:middle line:84% is the use of standard materials. 00:18:43.350 --> 00:18:46.170 align:middle line:84% And the building collapsed, killing many people. 00:18:46.170 --> 00:18:48.180 align:middle line:90% This is also not mythical. 00:18:48.180 --> 00:18:50.640 align:middle line:90% It is rare. 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.510 align:middle line:84% There are engineers, professional engineers, 00:18:53.510 --> 00:18:57.190 align:middle line:84% in the employment of the company. 00:18:57.190 --> 00:18:58.720 align:middle line:90% They raise issues. 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.920 align:middle line:84% But of course, the conflict [INAUDIBLE] overruled. 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:04.420 align:middle line:90% Go and do your best. 00:19:04.420 --> 00:19:05.770 align:middle line:90% And they did their best. 00:19:05.770 --> 00:19:07.780 align:middle line:84% And of course, the building collapsed. 00:19:07.780 --> 00:19:11.530 align:middle line:84% Should they have raised alarm instead of going along 00:19:11.530 --> 00:19:13.400 align:middle line:90% with the project? 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:18.760 align:middle line:84% So these three cases led us to the question, what is culture? 00:19:18.760 --> 00:19:20.950 align:middle line:84% When we talk about cross-cultural ethics 00:19:20.950 --> 00:19:24.280 align:middle line:84% of different cultural traditions, what is culture? 00:19:24.280 --> 00:19:26.685 align:middle line:90% And later on, what is ethics? 00:19:26.685 --> 00:19:30.170 align:middle line:90% I have two accounts of culture. 00:19:30.170 --> 00:19:34.940 align:middle line:84% One is that culture is an activity of tending. 00:19:34.940 --> 00:19:39.860 align:middle line:84% It's like tending a plant, getting it to grow, 00:19:39.860 --> 00:19:44.470 align:middle line:84% and of course doing everything possible to make it 00:19:44.470 --> 00:19:48.070 align:middle line:90% grow and become a lovely plant. 00:19:48.070 --> 00:19:52.720 align:middle line:84% Of course, when we do that, any activity of tending 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:54.580 align:middle line:90% can be subject to evaluation. 00:19:54.580 --> 00:19:55.450 align:middle line:90% Is it done well? 00:19:55.450 --> 00:19:57.610 align:middle line:84% If the plant grows, and it's lovely, 00:19:57.610 --> 00:20:01.930 align:middle line:84% and it blossoms, of course, that activity is well done. 00:20:01.930 --> 00:20:04.480 align:middle line:84% If it doesn't, then of course, it's not well done. 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:09.265 align:middle line:84% So we can evaluate activities or the outcome of products 00:20:09.265 --> 00:20:15.280 align:middle line:84% of activities on the basis of the tending activity 00:20:15.280 --> 00:20:17.350 align:middle line:90% that we put in. 00:20:17.350 --> 00:20:19.720 align:middle line:84% And that leads to the idea that there could then 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:25.840 align:middle line:84% be a hierarchy of cultures, cultures that grow well, 00:20:25.840 --> 00:20:28.240 align:middle line:90% cultures that don't grow away. 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:31.450 align:middle line:84% This is what Alain Locke, the former chairman 00:20:31.450 --> 00:20:36.780 align:middle line:84% of my department, the first African-American Rhodes 00:20:36.780 --> 00:20:40.290 align:middle line:84% scholar, had to serve a cult. It is the capacity 00:20:40.290 --> 00:20:43.470 align:middle line:84% for understanding the best and most representative 00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:49.820 align:middle line:84% forms of human expression, and of appreciative 00:20:49.820 --> 00:20:53.300 align:middle line:84% and of expressing oneself, if not 00:20:53.300 --> 00:20:57.920 align:middle line:84% in similar creativeness, at least in appreciative reactions 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:01.700 align:middle line:84% and in progressively responsive refinement 00:21:01.700 --> 00:21:03.390 align:middle line:90% of taste and interests. 00:21:03.390 --> 00:21:06.890 align:middle line:84% So Luck is here talking about culture 00:21:06.890 --> 00:21:09.800 align:middle line:84% as an activity of tending, culture as something 00:21:09.800 --> 00:21:16.750 align:middle line:84% that can be related, culture as something that is defined. 00:21:16.750 --> 00:21:19.210 align:middle line:84% Here, we can talk about the hierarchy of cultures. 00:21:19.210 --> 00:21:24.160 align:middle line:84% This is the way in which some eurocentric scholars 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:27.490 align:middle line:84% and practitioners understand culture. 00:21:27.490 --> 00:21:29.600 align:middle line:84% In the early days of anthropology, 00:21:29.600 --> 00:21:32.980 align:middle line:84% this is the way that culture was understood. 00:21:32.980 --> 00:21:37.270 align:middle line:84% And that is the beginning of the idea of the white man's party 00:21:37.270 --> 00:21:39.610 align:middle line:84% going into other countries because they are not 00:21:39.610 --> 00:21:43.660 align:middle line:84% doing it well, because we want to help them do it right. 00:21:43.660 --> 00:21:54.780 align:middle line:84% That is an idea of culture as an activity of 10, as refinement. 00:21:54.780 --> 00:21:57.540 align:middle line:90% It is not the only idea. 00:21:57.540 --> 00:22:01.890 align:middle line:84% There is the idea of culture as a life form. 00:22:01.890 --> 00:22:07.410 align:middle line:84% Any form of life, any way of life, 00:22:07.410 --> 00:22:11.880 align:middle line:84% value systems, belief systems, practices. 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:13.680 align:middle line:84% Culture in this sense, it's organic. 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:15.240 align:middle line:90% It's authentic. 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:17.640 align:middle line:84% It's incomparable with any other culture 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:20.110 align:middle line:90% because it stands on its own. 00:22:20.110 --> 00:22:23.400 align:middle line:84% There is no basis for evaluating life forms. 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:28.120 align:middle line:90% Each life form is on its own. 00:22:28.120 --> 00:22:30.600 align:middle line:84% So there is an equality of life forms. 00:22:30.600 --> 00:22:34.500 align:middle line:84% This is the way in which we can understand Tyler's definition 00:22:34.500 --> 00:22:37.500 align:middle line:84% in primitive culture, the complex of values 00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:41.640 align:middle line:84% and practices, including knowledge, belief, art, morals, 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.930 align:middle line:84% law, custom, and any other capabilities 00:22:45.930 --> 00:22:50.025 align:middle line:84% acquired by man, of course, and woman, as a member of society. 00:22:50.025 --> 00:22:52.830 align:middle line:90% 00:22:52.830 --> 00:22:59.690 align:middle line:84% So in other words, it is what we have as a people. 00:22:59.690 --> 00:23:02.700 align:middle line:84% Our belief systems, our value systems, 00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:05.300 align:middle line:84% our cultural-- our customary practices, 00:23:05.300 --> 00:23:08.270 align:middle line:84% conventional values, these are what 00:23:08.270 --> 00:23:14.480 align:middle line:84% constitute culture in this sense of culture as life form. 00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:17.390 align:middle line:84% This is the sense in which the government idealist also 00:23:17.390 --> 00:23:21.860 align:middle line:84% understands culture, how that in particular 00:23:21.860 --> 00:23:23.630 align:middle line:84% understands culture as a life form. 00:23:23.630 --> 00:23:26.300 align:middle line:84% That's why I negate the idea of hierarchy of cultures. 00:23:26.300 --> 00:23:29.800 align:middle line:90% 00:23:29.800 --> 00:23:38.120 align:middle line:84% Now if we look at culture in the sense of a life form 00:23:38.120 --> 00:23:42.740 align:middle line:84% and more as a part of the constituent 00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:48.770 align:middle line:84% of that culture, as is evidenced by Tyler's definition, then, 00:23:48.770 --> 00:23:52.790 align:middle line:84% of course, we would come to the understanding, or conclusion, 00:23:52.790 --> 00:23:57.440 align:middle line:84% or inference that morals, of course, belonging to culture 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:04.180 align:middle line:84% as a life form will be different from one culture to the other. 00:24:04.180 --> 00:24:06.020 align:middle line:90% But it need not. 00:24:06.020 --> 00:24:10.330 align:middle line:84% There's no reason why it has to be. 00:24:10.330 --> 00:24:11.500 align:middle line:90% Of course, it could be. 00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:16.630 align:middle line:84% But morals may also be common to all these cultures even 00:24:16.630 --> 00:24:19.780 align:middle line:90% in their specific life forms. 00:24:19.780 --> 00:24:28.110 align:middle line:84% There may be a commonality of moral ideas across life forms. 00:24:28.110 --> 00:24:34.610 align:middle line:84% But the way that people have interpreted the idea of culture 00:24:34.610 --> 00:24:39.440 align:middle line:84% as life forms seem to lead to the notion 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:44.330 align:middle line:84% of relativity of life forms and therefore relativities 00:24:44.330 --> 00:24:47.250 align:middle line:90% of values. 00:24:47.250 --> 00:24:50.480 align:middle line:84% But again, as I would argue, it need not be so. 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:52.160 align:middle line:90% But that's the argument. 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:53.960 align:middle line:84% If there is no basis for evaluating 00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:58.160 align:middle line:84% life forms as inferior or superior, good or bad, 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.860 align:middle line:84% it follows that every life form is equal. 00:25:00.860 --> 00:25:04.580 align:middle line:84% And every life form is as good as the other. 00:25:04.580 --> 00:25:08.390 align:middle line:84% And then, the assertion is made, there 00:25:08.390 --> 00:25:11.150 align:middle line:84% is no basis for evaluating life forms. 00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:13.310 align:middle line:84% And of course, the inference is drawn. 00:25:13.310 --> 00:25:16.460 align:middle line:84% Therefore, every life form is equal. 00:25:16.460 --> 00:25:19.520 align:middle line:84% And every life form is as good as the other. 00:25:19.520 --> 00:25:23.510 align:middle line:84% And therefore, every life form has equal moral weight. 00:25:23.510 --> 00:25:31.190 align:middle line:84% Now without going to the other conception of culture 00:25:31.190 --> 00:25:36.830 align:middle line:84% as hierarchical orderings, even remaining 00:25:36.830 --> 00:25:40.220 align:middle line:84% within the context of culture as life forms, 00:25:40.220 --> 00:25:45.920 align:middle line:84% I would argue that this inference is premature. 00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:49.430 align:middle line:84% I would argue that even if we conceive of culture as life 00:25:49.430 --> 00:25:52.310 align:middle line:84% forms, there may still at best be 00:25:52.310 --> 00:25:55.730 align:middle line:84% a basis for evaluating life forms, especially 00:25:55.730 --> 00:25:58.390 align:middle line:90% from a moral perspective. 00:25:58.390 --> 00:26:02.730 align:middle line:90% And that's what I do. 00:26:02.730 --> 00:26:06.620 align:middle line:90% But first, what is ethics? 00:26:06.620 --> 00:26:14.370 align:middle line:84% There are two accounts of ethics that I want to present to you. 00:26:14.370 --> 00:26:18.730 align:middle line:84% One is by my former teacher Michael Singer 00:26:18.730 --> 00:26:21.840 align:middle line:84% over at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, 00:26:21.840 --> 00:26:24.840 align:middle line:84% who was the former President of the American Philosophical 00:26:24.840 --> 00:26:28.010 align:middle line:90% Association, [INAUDIBLE]. 00:26:28.010 --> 00:26:31.700 align:middle line:84% And it was in this presidential address 00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:36.590 align:middle line:84% that he gave us the 1986 Presidential-- 00:26:36.590 --> 00:26:38.300 align:middle line:90% APA Convention. 00:26:38.300 --> 00:26:41.300 align:middle line:84% That he gave three accounts of morality. 00:26:41.300 --> 00:26:44.840 align:middle line:84% One he calls customary morality, which is the accepted 00:26:44.840 --> 00:26:45.980 align:middle line:90% morality of a group. 00:26:45.980 --> 00:26:49.700 align:middle line:84% We can also call it conventional morality or positive morality. 00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:55.310 align:middle line:84% Worst, we could accept as moral or morally right. 00:26:55.310 --> 00:26:58.580 align:middle line:84% Then there is personal morality, which may or may not 00:26:58.580 --> 00:27:01.190 align:middle line:84% be different from the conventional morality 00:27:01.190 --> 00:27:05.480 align:middle line:84% of the group in the sense that what my personal morality is 00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:08.540 align:middle line:84% may be influenced by the morality of the group. 00:27:08.540 --> 00:27:11.000 align:middle line:84% But there are cases in which individuals 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:13.910 align:middle line:84% have their personal morality different 00:27:13.910 --> 00:27:17.480 align:middle line:84% from the conventional morality of the group 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:19.760 align:middle line:90% as a result of various things. 00:27:19.760 --> 00:27:21.710 align:middle line:84% Maybe as a result of outside influence. 00:27:21.710 --> 00:27:25.250 align:middle line:90% Maybe as a result of conscience. 00:27:25.250 --> 00:27:29.750 align:middle line:84% There are people in the period of enslavement 00:27:29.750 --> 00:27:33.890 align:middle line:84% in this country who, in fact, lived in the south. 00:27:33.890 --> 00:27:38.570 align:middle line:84% And they were opposed to enslavement because 00:27:38.570 --> 00:27:41.420 align:middle line:90% of their personal morality. 00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:43.550 align:middle line:84% Apartheid South Africa is also an example. 00:27:43.550 --> 00:27:45.110 align:middle line:84% There were whites in South Africa 00:27:45.110 --> 00:27:47.990 align:middle line:84% who are opposed to apartheid because 00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:49.200 align:middle line:90% of their personal morality. 00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:52.760 align:middle line:84% So a person's ideas of right and wrong 00:27:52.760 --> 00:27:55.130 align:middle line:84% will be based on personal principles. 00:27:55.130 --> 00:27:59.090 align:middle line:84% Then rational morality is that morality 00:27:59.090 --> 00:28:03.500 align:middle line:90% which is based on reason. 00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:07.070 align:middle line:84% It may be critical of personal morality, different from it 00:28:07.070 --> 00:28:09.080 align:middle line:84% in the sense that personal moralities may also 00:28:09.080 --> 00:28:12.830 align:middle line:90% be based on prejudices. 00:28:12.830 --> 00:28:15.710 align:middle line:84% Rational morality is derived from reason. 00:28:15.710 --> 00:28:17.900 align:middle line:84% And it's presupposed in any criticisms 00:28:17.900 --> 00:28:22.070 align:middle line:84% that people have of conventional or personal morality. 00:28:22.070 --> 00:28:24.950 align:middle line:84% Now of course, obviously, people would ask, but where 00:28:24.950 --> 00:28:26.360 align:middle line:90% does that reason come from? 00:28:26.360 --> 00:28:28.370 align:middle line:84% Isn't it the religion of individuals? 00:28:28.370 --> 00:28:30.020 align:middle line:90% Yes, it is. 00:28:30.020 --> 00:28:33.950 align:middle line:84% But it's that high-level of reason, 00:28:33.950 --> 00:28:38.390 align:middle line:84% which, of course, is not based on personal prejudice. 00:28:38.390 --> 00:28:44.120 align:middle line:84% The second account is that of Harry Redner in a book 00:28:44.120 --> 00:28:47.060 align:middle line:84% called Ethical Life, The Past and Present 00:28:47.060 --> 00:28:48.260 align:middle line:90% of Ethical Cultures. 00:28:48.260 --> 00:28:51.620 align:middle line:84% And I find it very interesting because he complements 00:28:51.620 --> 00:28:52.917 align:middle line:90% what Singer has to say. 00:28:52.917 --> 00:28:55.250 align:middle line:84% And I think even though there is an apparent difference, 00:28:55.250 --> 00:28:58.430 align:middle line:90% they all come to the same point. 00:28:58.430 --> 00:29:04.790 align:middle line:84% Harry Redner makes a distinction between ethos and ethics. 00:29:04.790 --> 00:29:09.200 align:middle line:84% Ethos is that portion of the culture of a group that 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:10.940 align:middle line:90% deals with its conduct. 00:29:10.940 --> 00:29:14.060 align:middle line:84% This is similar to the conventional morality 00:29:14.060 --> 00:29:16.920 align:middle line:90% or customary morality of Singer. 00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:19.670 align:middle line:84% It's this product of civil institutions. 00:29:19.670 --> 00:29:25.130 align:middle line:84% Each culture passes through a number of civilizing moves. 00:29:25.130 --> 00:29:29.330 align:middle line:84% There's the temple civilization, which is mostly religious; 00:29:29.330 --> 00:29:32.420 align:middle line:84% [INAUDIBLE] civilization, which is mostly kingly-- 00:29:32.420 --> 00:29:37.230 align:middle line:84% kingship; city; civil society; and of course, they're 00:29:37.230 --> 00:29:40.670 align:middle line:84% the paradox of officialdom in any culture. 00:29:40.670 --> 00:29:45.170 align:middle line:84% Now conventional morality in this sense or ethos 00:29:45.170 --> 00:29:49.920 align:middle line:84% in this sense is pretty critical. 00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:53.570 align:middle line:84% And ethos is that portion of the culture of a society which 00:29:53.570 --> 00:29:56.630 align:middle line:84% is concerned with everything to do with the conduct 00:29:56.630 --> 00:29:59.180 align:middle line:84% and behavior and, in general, with what 00:29:59.180 --> 00:30:03.740 align:middle line:84% can be called the lifestyle or the style of life of a people. 00:30:03.740 --> 00:30:09.860 align:middle line:84% Then the second sense that Harry Redner brings out 00:30:09.860 --> 00:30:12.980 align:middle line:90% is what he calls ethics proper. 00:30:12.980 --> 00:30:16.820 align:middle line:84% And this is what we would call rational morality 00:30:16.820 --> 00:30:18.980 align:middle line:90% in a single sense. 00:30:18.980 --> 00:30:21.620 align:middle line:84% It is critical ethos, which is the product 00:30:21.620 --> 00:30:26.760 align:middle line:84% of critical scrutiny of the civil ethos, in other words, 00:30:26.760 --> 00:30:31.370 align:middle line:84% the rational critique of the civil ethos. 00:30:31.370 --> 00:30:35.360 align:middle line:84% It subjects each code of civility 00:30:35.360 --> 00:30:41.090 align:middle line:84% to higher critical, namely rational standards. 00:30:41.090 --> 00:30:45.770 align:middle line:84% According to Redner, an ethics in this second sense 00:30:45.770 --> 00:30:50.300 align:middle line:84% arises out of a pre-existing civilized ethos. 00:30:50.300 --> 00:30:53.870 align:middle line:84% When the church traditionally accepted and unquestioned 00:30:53.870 --> 00:30:58.040 align:middle line:84% codes of civility, the divine sanctions 00:30:58.040 --> 00:31:02.160 align:middle line:84% of law, the morals, the customs, the manners, 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:05.750 align:middle line:84% the conventional duties becomes subject to higher 00:31:05.750 --> 00:31:07.130 align:middle line:90% critical standards. 00:31:07.130 --> 00:31:11.690 align:middle line:84% Now, so these ethics proper, according to Redner, 00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:17.910 align:middle line:84% is the same as rational morality in single sense. 00:31:17.910 --> 00:31:19.850 align:middle line:84% So there is that equivalence there. 00:31:19.850 --> 00:31:26.360 align:middle line:84% And I want to argue that every culture has 00:31:26.360 --> 00:31:33.560 align:middle line:84% these rational morality perspective or critical ethos 00:31:33.560 --> 00:31:35.100 align:middle line:90% perspective. 00:31:35.100 --> 00:31:40.190 align:middle line:84% In other words, when the founders of every culture 00:31:40.190 --> 00:31:43.730 align:middle line:84% are contemplating what to do, they 00:31:43.730 --> 00:31:47.090 align:middle line:84% go through some critical ideas about what 00:31:47.090 --> 00:31:49.730 align:middle line:90% is good for the community. 00:31:49.730 --> 00:31:55.760 align:middle line:84% Now we may query the level of standard of their critique 00:31:55.760 --> 00:31:57.620 align:middle line:90% or rational critique. 00:31:57.620 --> 00:32:00.210 align:middle line:84% But that doesn't mean that it's not there. 00:32:00.210 --> 00:32:02.360 align:middle line:84% This is the same thing I say when 00:32:02.360 --> 00:32:05.270 align:middle line:84% people talk about traditional philosophy 00:32:05.270 --> 00:32:09.920 align:middle line:90% versus modern philosophizing. 00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:16.230 align:middle line:84% If you go into any culture, if you look carefully, 00:32:16.230 --> 00:32:21.990 align:middle line:84% you'll have philosophers, Indigenous philosophers. 00:32:21.990 --> 00:32:24.980 align:middle line:84% They don't put their philosophizing and writing, 00:32:24.980 --> 00:32:26.930 align:middle line:84% maybe because they are not literary. 00:32:26.930 --> 00:32:32.390 align:middle line:84% But there are sages who go through critical thinking 00:32:32.390 --> 00:32:38.510 align:middle line:84% about their society, even contemplating 00:32:38.510 --> 00:32:42.170 align:middle line:84% ideas about the world view that they inherit 00:32:42.170 --> 00:32:45.230 align:middle line:90% from their own ancestors. 00:32:45.230 --> 00:32:48.470 align:middle line:84% There is a project in Kenya which 00:32:48.470 --> 00:32:52.820 align:middle line:84% was started by the late Odera Oruka called Sage Philosophy. 00:32:52.820 --> 00:32:56.870 align:middle line:84% And that project was to investigate the philosophies 00:32:56.870 --> 00:33:00.290 align:middle line:90% of traditional Kenyans. 00:33:00.290 --> 00:33:02.540 align:middle line:84% These are people who don't go to school. 00:33:02.540 --> 00:33:05.540 align:middle line:84% They are people who don't read Socrates or Plato. 00:33:05.540 --> 00:33:08.480 align:middle line:84% But they have philosophical ideas. 00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:12.210 align:middle line:84% And the question is, do we know about those ideas? 00:33:12.210 --> 00:33:19.460 align:middle line:84% So for every culture, there are people 00:33:19.460 --> 00:33:23.330 align:middle line:84% who think critically about issues 00:33:23.330 --> 00:33:27.620 align:middle line:84% that we think only philosophers worry about. 00:33:27.620 --> 00:33:29.480 align:middle line:84% That is, only Western philosophers 00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:31.440 align:middle line:84% or modern philosophers worry about. 00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:34.330 align:middle line:84% So this is what I mean by the universality of ethics. 00:33:34.330 --> 00:33:34.830 align:middle line:90% Sir? 00:33:34.830 --> 00:33:37.952 align:middle line:90% 00:33:37.952 --> 00:33:40.535 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I don't know if this is a question better to ask now 00:33:40.535 --> 00:33:42.080 align:middle line:90% or to come to you later. 00:33:42.080 --> 00:33:42.830 align:middle line:90% It's up to you. 00:33:42.830 --> 00:33:43.997 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Certainly. 00:33:43.997 --> 00:33:47.270 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But you're describing the critical ethics 00:33:47.270 --> 00:33:49.647 align:middle line:84% as being embedded in institutions. 00:33:49.647 --> 00:33:50.930 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Right. 00:33:50.930 --> 00:33:52.958 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And over time, institutions change. 00:33:52.958 --> 00:33:54.125 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Certainly. 00:33:54.125 --> 00:33:55.170 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Slowly, but they change. 00:33:55.170 --> 00:33:56.128 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Sure. 00:33:56.128 --> 00:33:58.190 align:middle line:90% 00:33:58.190 --> 00:34:03.640 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Looking both in African institutions, 00:34:03.640 --> 00:34:09.020 align:middle line:84% and critical ethics, and in Western, and others, 00:34:09.020 --> 00:34:13.580 align:middle line:84% is the rate of change of thinking in the critical ethics 00:34:13.580 --> 00:34:17.420 align:middle line:84% domain exactly equivalent to the rate of change 00:34:17.420 --> 00:34:19.550 align:middle line:90% in these societal institutions? 00:34:19.550 --> 00:34:20.239 align:middle line:90% Is it faster? 00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:21.110 align:middle line:90% Is it slower? 00:34:21.110 --> 00:34:21.380 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Right. 00:34:21.380 --> 00:34:22.370 align:middle line:90% Yeah, very good. 00:34:22.370 --> 00:34:23.210 align:middle line:90% Very good question. 00:34:23.210 --> 00:34:24.585 align:middle line:84% Let me deal with that right away. 00:34:24.585 --> 00:34:26.370 align:middle line:90% And I'm glad you bring these up. 00:34:26.370 --> 00:34:32.270 align:middle line:84% In fact, this goes to the point of my own position with respect 00:34:32.270 --> 00:34:40.040 align:middle line:84% to cultures, the dynamism of culture, vis-a-vis 00:34:40.040 --> 00:34:44.630 align:middle line:84% what people, especially philosophers, 00:34:44.630 --> 00:34:49.670 align:middle line:84% ethicists in the west, think about other cultures. 00:34:49.670 --> 00:34:52.639 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And just to add a piece. 00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.670 align:middle line:84% My own thinking and writing lately 00:34:55.670 --> 00:35:00.860 align:middle line:84% has been that as technology accelerates its rate of change, 00:35:00.860 --> 00:35:04.698 align:middle line:84% institutions are changing at a more rapid rate. 00:35:04.698 --> 00:35:05.615 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Yes. 00:35:05.615 --> 00:35:07.400 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And so that's the underlying motivation to what-- 00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:08.775 align:middle line:84% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Yes, very good. 00:35:08.775 --> 00:35:10.790 align:middle line:84% Yes, I agree with that completely. 00:35:10.790 --> 00:35:16.640 align:middle line:84% Now how does that play into what I'm saying? 00:35:16.640 --> 00:35:20.720 align:middle line:84% When people are aware of that, then there 00:35:20.720 --> 00:35:26.120 align:middle line:84% is a limited reason why people would 00:35:26.120 --> 00:35:30.920 align:middle line:84% want to go into other cultures because those other cultures 00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:31.850 align:middle line:90% seem to be pristine. 00:35:31.850 --> 00:35:34.720 align:middle line:90% 00:35:34.720 --> 00:35:37.600 align:middle line:90% People look for what is exotic. 00:35:37.600 --> 00:35:39.940 align:middle line:84% And they think they can find it in other cultures 00:35:39.940 --> 00:35:43.100 align:middle line:84% because Western culture has lost it. 00:35:43.100 --> 00:35:47.180 align:middle line:84% Well, those other cultures are also changing. 00:35:47.180 --> 00:35:50.710 align:middle line:84% So what was there 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 00:35:50.710 --> 00:35:53.020 align:middle line:90% you won't find it now. 00:35:53.020 --> 00:35:55.120 align:middle line:84% I tell people that if you go to Lagos now, 00:35:55.120 --> 00:35:56.620 align:middle line:90% it's as if you are in New York. 00:35:56.620 --> 00:35:58.060 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Right. 00:35:58.060 --> 00:36:02.380 align:middle line:84% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: So people talk of community, communalism. 00:36:02.380 --> 00:36:05.770 align:middle line:84% Things change because if they don't change, 00:36:05.770 --> 00:36:07.750 align:middle line:90% the cultures will atrophy. 00:36:07.750 --> 00:36:09.880 align:middle line:84% They have to change with the times. 00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:13.420 align:middle line:90% You brought in capitalism. 00:36:13.420 --> 00:36:16.450 align:middle line:84% You don't expect communalism to exist side-by-side 00:36:16.450 --> 00:36:18.940 align:middle line:90% with capitalism. 00:36:18.940 --> 00:36:20.950 align:middle line:84% But the aspects that you are looking for, 00:36:20.950 --> 00:36:27.730 align:middle line:84% community, all right, coincides with communalism. 00:36:27.730 --> 00:36:30.500 align:middle line:84% So why would it be there anymore? 00:36:30.500 --> 00:36:33.460 align:middle line:84% We talk about individualism versus communalism. 00:36:33.460 --> 00:36:36.040 align:middle line:84% I think one culture is all individualistic. 00:36:36.040 --> 00:36:38.590 align:middle line:84% And the other is all communalistic. 00:36:38.590 --> 00:36:41.030 align:middle line:84% But that's not the way things go. 00:36:41.030 --> 00:36:42.820 align:middle line:90% So I agree with you completely. 00:36:42.820 --> 00:36:45.740 align:middle line:84% Now with respect to the rate of change, 00:36:45.740 --> 00:36:49.810 align:middle line:84% yes, it may be slower, all right, 00:36:49.810 --> 00:36:52.240 align:middle line:90% than the institutional changes. 00:36:52.240 --> 00:36:53.500 align:middle line:90% But it has to catch up. 00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:56.650 align:middle line:84% Otherwise, again, the cultures would just collapse. 00:36:56.650 --> 00:37:00.820 align:middle line:84% And those who are involved in thinking about this 00:37:00.820 --> 00:37:06.490 align:middle line:84% don't have a choice because it is not as if they deliberately 00:37:06.490 --> 00:37:08.770 align:middle line:84% think, well, we have to change now. 00:37:08.770 --> 00:37:10.480 align:middle line:90% It is forced on them. 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:13.090 align:middle line:90% Yes? 00:37:13.090 --> 00:37:14.440 align:middle line:90% Sorry. 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:16.600 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: One thing I was thinking 00:37:16.600 --> 00:37:19.510 align:middle line:84% was that just the rate of change, 00:37:19.510 --> 00:37:20.980 align:middle line:90% there's the direction of change. 00:37:20.980 --> 00:37:21.897 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Yes. 00:37:21.897 --> 00:37:25.300 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And part of having a basis of values 00:37:25.300 --> 00:37:27.400 align:middle line:84% is because we consider one action is 00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:30.850 align:middle line:84% right to be consistent with our values 00:37:30.850 --> 00:37:33.490 align:middle line:90% towards a particular intent. 00:37:33.490 --> 00:37:43.080 align:middle line:84% So first question is, is there a common direction of change 00:37:43.080 --> 00:37:47.370 align:middle line:84% which each of us individually is either programmed, or learned, 00:37:47.370 --> 00:37:50.340 align:middle line:90% or whatever we think, want? 00:37:50.340 --> 00:37:54.240 align:middle line:84% And second, my personal feeling is 00:37:54.240 --> 00:37:56.580 align:middle line:84% there is such a direction of change. 00:37:56.580 --> 00:38:00.690 align:middle line:84% And the direction of changes, preservation of a community 00:38:00.690 --> 00:38:03.840 align:middle line:84% and what changes over time, is the definition 00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:06.180 align:middle line:84% of that community from being an individual. 00:38:06.180 --> 00:38:09.540 align:middle line:84% That a couple of 100 years ago, it 00:38:09.540 --> 00:38:12.540 align:middle line:84% was OK to destroy a community, where community 00:38:12.540 --> 00:38:14.100 align:middle line:90% was equal to a kingdom. 00:38:14.100 --> 00:38:15.842 align:middle line:84% So another kingdom, so long its people. 00:38:15.842 --> 00:38:16.800 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Yeah. 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:20.160 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: But to preserve one's own kingdom. 00:38:20.160 --> 00:38:23.520 align:middle line:84% Today, it's OK to destroy a country 00:38:23.520 --> 00:38:25.410 align:middle line:90% for preserving one's country. 00:38:25.410 --> 00:38:29.130 align:middle line:84% But probably if you extrapolated, 00:38:29.130 --> 00:38:32.250 align:middle line:84% tomorrow, it might be OK to destroy another planet 00:38:32.250 --> 00:38:33.570 align:middle line:90% for the preservation of Earth. 00:38:33.570 --> 00:38:34.528 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Yeah. 00:38:34.528 --> 00:38:37.095 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And I don't know what's your views on that. 00:38:37.095 --> 00:38:39.240 align:middle line:84% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Well, yeah, that's probably true. 00:38:39.240 --> 00:38:42.540 align:middle line:90% But I would modify it. 00:38:42.540 --> 00:38:45.450 align:middle line:84% When you talk about direction of change 00:38:45.450 --> 00:38:50.790 align:middle line:84% in terms of helping the community to survive, 00:38:50.790 --> 00:38:53.580 align:middle line:84% I'm not too sure that it's always that way, 00:38:53.580 --> 00:38:56.100 align:middle line:90% that that's always the mindset. 00:38:56.100 --> 00:38:57.540 align:middle line:90% It depends. 00:38:57.540 --> 00:39:02.580 align:middle line:84% Individual preservation is also a crucial element 00:39:02.580 --> 00:39:06.120 align:middle line:90% in contention. 00:39:06.120 --> 00:39:09.660 align:middle line:84% When individuals are forced to think 00:39:09.660 --> 00:39:14.380 align:middle line:84% about their own preservation, they go along with that. 00:39:14.380 --> 00:39:16.890 align:middle line:84% Of course, if that is also then going 00:39:16.890 --> 00:39:20.640 align:middle line:84% to help the community to survive, so be it. 00:39:20.640 --> 00:39:23.370 align:middle line:90% And I have examples. 00:39:23.370 --> 00:39:26.700 align:middle line:84% Traditional rulership or kingship 00:39:26.700 --> 00:39:30.520 align:middle line:84% in many non-Western countries is changing. 00:39:30.520 --> 00:39:32.430 align:middle line:84% But the traditional rulers are supposed 00:39:32.430 --> 00:39:35.520 align:middle line:84% to be the symbol of the community. 00:39:35.520 --> 00:39:36.090 align:middle line:90% All right? 00:39:36.090 --> 00:39:40.350 align:middle line:84% In bioethics, international research, 00:39:40.350 --> 00:39:42.990 align:middle line:84% there is this idea that, well, informed 00:39:42.990 --> 00:39:45.090 align:middle line:84% consent is different in other countries 00:39:45.090 --> 00:39:47.910 align:middle line:84% because, again, these are countries which are governed 00:39:47.910 --> 00:39:51.040 align:middle line:90% by communal values. 00:39:51.040 --> 00:39:55.440 align:middle line:84% So if a researcher goes into a community, 00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:59.970 align:middle line:84% he or she has to consult with the traditional ruler 00:39:59.970 --> 00:40:01.260 align:middle line:90% or the chief. 00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:04.710 align:middle line:84% And once the consent of the chief is received, 00:40:04.710 --> 00:40:09.390 align:middle line:84% he or she may not need to go for consent of individuals 00:40:09.390 --> 00:40:13.590 align:middle line:84% because that may be considered as just an insult 00:40:13.590 --> 00:40:15.210 align:middle line:90% to the traditional ruler. 00:40:15.210 --> 00:40:18.330 align:middle line:90% Well, that is not true. 00:40:18.330 --> 00:40:21.570 align:middle line:84% I don't know of any traditional country 00:40:21.570 --> 00:40:24.960 align:middle line:84% that you go to, traditional community that you go to 00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:28.230 align:middle line:84% in Africa, and you say, I have sent the ruler. 00:40:28.230 --> 00:40:30.820 align:middle line:84% I don't need to take consent from you. 00:40:30.820 --> 00:40:32.760 align:middle line:84% But I want to do research with you. 00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:37.020 align:middle line:84% And you'll expect that person to say yes. 00:40:37.020 --> 00:40:39.610 align:middle line:90% Again, values have changed. 00:40:39.610 --> 00:40:46.090 align:middle line:84% People have been open to diverse values. 00:40:46.090 --> 00:40:52.470 align:middle line:84% And so they are no longer restricted or confined 00:40:52.470 --> 00:40:55.260 align:middle line:90% to the traditional value system. 00:40:55.260 --> 00:40:59.590 align:middle line:84% Individual preservation is extremely important. 00:40:59.590 --> 00:41:04.530 align:middle line:84% And so the universality of ethics is based on this idea. 00:41:04.530 --> 00:41:08.850 align:middle line:84% I think this is where I want to revise the earlier 00:41:08.850 --> 00:41:12.960 align:middle line:84% inference that we have with respect to the relativity 00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:14.370 align:middle line:90% of life forms. 00:41:14.370 --> 00:41:21.720 align:middle line:84% The core of morality for me, and I think for many ethicists, 00:41:21.720 --> 00:41:25.470 align:middle line:84% is the promotion of human flourishing. 00:41:25.470 --> 00:41:29.700 align:middle line:84% So a critical standard for evaluating a civil ethos, 00:41:29.700 --> 00:41:32.310 align:middle line:84% conventional morality or customary morality, 00:41:32.310 --> 00:41:35.790 align:middle line:84% is the extent to which it promotes or negates 00:41:35.790 --> 00:41:37.710 align:middle line:90% human flourishing. 00:41:37.710 --> 00:41:41.040 align:middle line:84% And this is where I agree with [INAUDIBLE] 00:41:41.040 --> 00:41:44.090 align:middle line:84% in human flourishing and universal justice. 00:41:44.090 --> 00:41:47.700 align:middle line:84% Though disagreements about what human flourishing consists in 00:41:47.700 --> 00:41:50.880 align:middle line:84% may prove ineradicable, it may well 00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:53.520 align:middle line:84% be possible to bypass them by agreeing 00:41:53.520 --> 00:41:56.350 align:middle line:84% that nutrition, clothing, shelter, 00:41:56.350 --> 00:41:59.940 align:middle line:84% and certain basic freedoms, as well as social interaction, 00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:03.840 align:middle line:84% education, and participation, are important 00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:08.690 align:middle line:84% means, means which just institutions 00:42:08.690 --> 00:42:10.020 align:middle line:90% must ensure for all. 00:42:10.020 --> 00:42:12.980 align:middle line:84% In other words, if we agree that human flourishing is 00:42:12.980 --> 00:42:16.550 align:middle line:84% the core of morality, it's what we have to concern ourselves 00:42:16.550 --> 00:42:20.570 align:middle line:84% with, then any conventional morality, 00:42:20.570 --> 00:42:24.860 align:middle line:84% or customary morality, or civil ethos 00:42:24.860 --> 00:42:27.620 align:middle line:84% that negates human flourishing must 00:42:27.620 --> 00:42:35.240 align:middle line:84% be considered to be less of importance than others. 00:42:35.240 --> 00:42:39.490 align:middle line:84% And that is the basis for the provision 00:42:39.490 --> 00:42:42.500 align:middle line:84% that I have of the relativity of life forms. 00:42:42.500 --> 00:42:44.360 align:middle line:84% So we would now say that every life 00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:48.240 align:middle line:84% form decides the prima facie equal consideration. 00:42:48.240 --> 00:42:48.740 align:middle line:90% All right? 00:42:48.740 --> 00:42:52.460 align:middle line:84% We're not going to dismiss any life form just like that. 00:42:52.460 --> 00:42:57.280 align:middle line:84% But if there is a conflict in the practices of life forms, 00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.490 align:middle line:84% we must appeal to a principle of adjudication 00:43:00.490 --> 00:43:04.240 align:middle line:84% and a principle that is adequate for adjudicating between life 00:43:04.240 --> 00:43:07.720 align:middle line:84% forms and the principle of human flourishing, the promotion 00:43:07.720 --> 00:43:09.070 align:middle line:90% of human flourishing. 00:43:09.070 --> 00:43:10.870 align:middle line:84% Does it promote human flourishing? 00:43:10.870 --> 00:43:12.040 align:middle line:90% Does it negate it? 00:43:12.040 --> 00:43:15.730 align:middle line:84% A life form that negates human flourishing therefore 00:43:15.730 --> 00:43:18.170 align:middle line:84% does not deserve equal consideration 00:43:18.170 --> 00:43:19.660 align:middle line:90% or equal treatment. 00:43:19.660 --> 00:43:25.240 align:middle line:84% And so when we ask the question of the moral weight of culture 00:43:25.240 --> 00:43:28.240 align:middle line:84% in ethics, how much weight should we 00:43:28.240 --> 00:43:32.470 align:middle line:84% assign to culture when we are talking about ethics? 00:43:32.470 --> 00:43:35.960 align:middle line:90% I think this is the principle. 00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:39.580 align:middle line:84% If a cultural practice negates human flourishing, 00:43:39.580 --> 00:43:42.290 align:middle line:90% its moral weight is light. 00:43:42.290 --> 00:43:44.830 align:middle line:90% If a cultural practice negates-- 00:43:44.830 --> 00:43:48.520 align:middle line:84% promotes human flourishing, its moral weight is heavy. 00:43:48.520 --> 00:43:52.150 align:middle line:84% And again, if you ask why, but what 00:43:52.150 --> 00:43:54.430 align:middle line:84% if there is differences in our conception 00:43:54.430 --> 00:43:55.750 align:middle line:90% of human flourishing? 00:43:55.750 --> 00:43:59.860 align:middle line:84% We have that settled, at least [INAUDIBLE] to some extent, 00:43:59.860 --> 00:44:04.360 align:middle line:84% namely that these are basic things that 00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:07.340 align:middle line:84% consist in human flourishing, shelter, food, 00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:09.580 align:middle line:90% basic freedoms, and so on. 00:44:09.580 --> 00:44:12.580 align:middle line:90% These are the essentials. 00:44:12.580 --> 00:44:22.190 align:middle line:84% Now, so ethics and engineering now, going back to those cases. 00:44:22.190 --> 00:44:25.750 align:middle line:84% We have to make a distinction between cultural practices-- 00:44:25.750 --> 00:44:28.960 align:middle line:84% cultural differences in engineering practices 00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:31.240 align:middle line:90% or any technological practices. 00:44:31.240 --> 00:44:34.720 align:middle line:84% How do different cultures approach engineering practice? 00:44:34.720 --> 00:44:39.100 align:middle line:84% Now it's not been the case that all cultures 00:44:39.100 --> 00:44:42.640 align:middle line:84% have engineering practices in the way that we now have it. 00:44:42.640 --> 00:44:45.850 align:middle line:84% But all cultures, one time or the other, 00:44:45.850 --> 00:44:49.210 align:middle line:84% have to build bridges over years. 00:44:49.210 --> 00:44:52.260 align:middle line:84% They have to build houses for shelter. 00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:55.930 align:middle line:84% And so I consider this as part of technology, 00:44:55.930 --> 00:44:57.490 align:middle line:90% as simple as it may be. 00:44:57.490 --> 00:44:59.290 align:middle line:90% What are the practices? 00:44:59.290 --> 00:45:00.670 align:middle line:84% Those are the cultural practices. 00:45:00.670 --> 00:45:03.010 align:middle line:84% How do people build their bridges? 00:45:03.010 --> 00:45:07.630 align:middle line:84% How do they construct their dams and so on? 00:45:07.630 --> 00:45:11.380 align:middle line:84% Then differences in ethics of engineering. 00:45:11.380 --> 00:45:16.120 align:middle line:84% And this has to do with what different ethical problems are 00:45:16.120 --> 00:45:20.530 align:middle line:84% raised by the different cultural practices in engineering. 00:45:20.530 --> 00:45:22.270 align:middle line:84% Those are two separate questions. 00:45:22.270 --> 00:45:24.400 align:middle line:84% What are the differences in the practices? 00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:29.950 align:middle line:84% Well, obviously, the way in which an African community 00:45:29.950 --> 00:45:33.310 align:middle line:84% builds bridges over its river is different from the way 00:45:33.310 --> 00:45:35.060 align:middle line:90% in which 20th-- 00:45:35.060 --> 00:45:38.890 align:middle line:84% excuse me, 21st century America built its own bridges. 00:45:38.890 --> 00:45:40.240 align:middle line:90% So there are those differences. 00:45:40.240 --> 00:45:45.700 align:middle line:84% What ethical problems or issues are raised in these practices? 00:45:45.700 --> 00:45:48.130 align:middle line:84% This is where the cases come back to us. 00:45:48.130 --> 00:45:52.420 align:middle line:84% And just for the sake of time, each of these cases, I think, 00:45:52.420 --> 00:45:54.940 align:middle line:90% can be handled in various ways. 00:45:54.940 --> 00:45:59.870 align:middle line:84% It depends on how we critically appraise the case. 00:45:59.870 --> 00:46:06.400 align:middle line:84% One thing that I think we cannot afford to disagree about is 00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:11.830 align:middle line:84% that it cannot be left to specific cultural traditions 00:46:11.830 --> 00:46:16.330 align:middle line:84% to determine what is right or what is wrong since, again, 00:46:16.330 --> 00:46:19.690 align:middle line:84% they all come, these cases all come, 00:46:19.690 --> 00:46:24.370 align:middle line:84% in the context of interaction between cultures, 00:46:24.370 --> 00:46:28.420 align:middle line:84% either representatives from each culture interacting with 00:46:28.420 --> 00:46:30.590 align:middle line:84% representatives from another culture. 00:46:30.590 --> 00:46:33.970 align:middle line:84% So if you have two cultures interacting, 00:46:33.970 --> 00:46:38.470 align:middle line:84% you cannot say the case or the problem has to be resolved 00:46:38.470 --> 00:46:42.190 align:middle line:84% by paying attention to what happens in one culture. 00:46:42.190 --> 00:46:48.160 align:middle line:84% It is not a case of if you are in Rome, do like Romans. 00:46:48.160 --> 00:46:49.150 align:middle line:90% Thank you very much. 00:46:49.150 --> 00:46:52.036 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:46:52.036 --> 00:46:54.441 align:middle line:90% 00:46:54.441 --> 00:46:57.012 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: I'll get it. 00:46:57.012 --> 00:46:58.470 align:middle line:84% You've got a burning question here. 00:46:58.470 --> 00:47:00.095 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: No, I didn't have a question. 00:47:00.095 --> 00:47:02.742 align:middle line:84% But just, your conclusion, you might even 00:47:02.742 --> 00:47:07.695 align:middle line:84% need a bumper sticker which says, act locally, 00:47:07.695 --> 00:47:08.320 align:middle line:90% think globally. 00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:08.590 align:middle line:84% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Think globally. 00:47:08.590 --> 00:47:09.090 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:47:09.090 --> 00:47:10.018 align:middle line:90% Exactly, yeah. 00:47:10.018 --> 00:47:12.880 align:middle line:90% 00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:15.340 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: How about another one? 00:47:15.340 --> 00:47:16.490 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Yes. 00:47:16.490 --> 00:47:18.650 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I believe we heard from two of you 00:47:18.650 --> 00:47:20.810 align:middle line:84% this morning, one talking about narrative, 00:47:20.810 --> 00:47:21.897 align:middle line:90% one talking about ethics. 00:47:21.897 --> 00:47:23.897 align:middle line:84% The title of the seminar is Narrative of Ethics. 00:47:23.897 --> 00:47:25.540 align:middle line:84% Did someone put the two together? 00:47:25.540 --> 00:47:25.990 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Correct. 00:47:25.990 --> 00:47:27.090 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yeah, that's what my talk is about. 00:47:27.090 --> 00:47:28.090 align:middle line:90% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Good question. 00:47:28.090 --> 00:47:28.590 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:47:28.590 --> 00:47:32.200 align:middle line:84% Yeah, that's why I said I'm a foreigner like John 00:47:32.200 --> 00:47:32.830 align:middle line:90% the Baptist. 00:47:32.830 --> 00:47:34.540 align:middle line:84% So he's going to do that for you. 00:47:34.540 --> 00:47:35.947 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:47:35.947 --> 00:47:40.640 align:middle line:90% 00:47:40.640 --> 00:47:41.528 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:47:41.528 --> 00:47:43.070 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: There they are together. 00:47:43.070 --> 00:47:48.630 align:middle line:90% 00:47:48.630 --> 00:47:54.060 align:middle line:84% What you're looking at here is part of the painting 00:47:54.060 --> 00:48:00.300 align:middle line:90% by Rubens, Prometheus Bound. 00:48:00.300 --> 00:48:04.650 align:middle line:84% This is the great bird plucking away at his liver. 00:48:04.650 --> 00:48:10.180 align:middle line:84% And this is a great mythic narrative. 00:48:10.180 --> 00:48:17.530 align:middle line:84% The story talks about how it is that Prometheus gave fire 00:48:17.530 --> 00:48:21.220 align:middle line:84% to human beings to use to keep them warm 00:48:21.220 --> 00:48:22.975 align:middle line:84% and then to do other things, cook 00:48:22.975 --> 00:48:25.630 align:middle line:90% and do other things with them. 00:48:25.630 --> 00:48:28.330 align:middle line:84% It talks about how he was punished for doing that 00:48:28.330 --> 00:48:33.550 align:middle line:90% by great powers of authority. 00:48:33.550 --> 00:48:39.340 align:middle line:84% I want to use this picture to be an image of all of the themes 00:48:39.340 --> 00:48:45.190 align:middle line:84% that I want to address, because if we talk about Prometheus 00:48:45.190 --> 00:48:48.830 align:middle line:84% giving technology to human beings, 00:48:48.830 --> 00:48:52.150 align:middle line:84% then I want to look at Prometheus as an engineer, 00:48:52.150 --> 00:48:55.240 align:middle line:84% because engineers like to think of themselves as those who 00:48:55.240 --> 00:48:58.790 align:middle line:90% give technology to societies. 00:48:58.790 --> 00:49:04.540 align:middle line:84% I also want to talk about how it is that an engineer can 00:49:04.540 --> 00:49:09.520 align:middle line:84% be punished by a higher authority for stealing 00:49:09.520 --> 00:49:12.620 align:middle line:84% technology, so to speak, and giving it to the other peoples. 00:49:12.620 --> 00:49:14.870 align:middle line:84% That brings engineering in with ethics. 00:49:14.870 --> 00:49:18.490 align:middle line:84% So this is my image of some of the major themes. 00:49:18.490 --> 00:49:26.530 align:middle line:84% The narrative is, for me, mostly going to be mythic narratives. 00:49:26.530 --> 00:49:28.720 align:middle line:84% There were some issues in the early '70s 00:49:28.720 --> 00:49:35.410 align:middle line:84% and going into '80s that began to make us think 00:49:35.410 --> 00:49:39.130 align:middle line:90% about ethics and engineering. 00:49:39.130 --> 00:49:44.260 align:middle line:84% 1973, then Vice President of the United States, Spiro T. Agnew, 00:49:44.260 --> 00:49:50.410 align:middle line:84% was accused of taking bribes from engineers. 00:49:50.410 --> 00:49:55.810 align:middle line:84% We had the Challenger case here, where 00:49:55.810 --> 00:49:58.600 align:middle line:84% it aroused ethical passions because there 00:49:58.600 --> 00:50:01.660 align:middle line:84% was such a thing called the O-rings that 00:50:01.660 --> 00:50:04.720 align:middle line:84% could have prevented or should-- or say that the flight should 00:50:04.720 --> 00:50:07.330 align:middle line:90% not have been taken at all. 00:50:07.330 --> 00:50:10.810 align:middle line:84% We have the issue in Bhopal, India. 00:50:10.810 --> 00:50:16.150 align:middle line:84% 3,800 people were killed by a chemical accident 00:50:16.150 --> 00:50:19.360 align:middle line:90% from Union Carbide there. 00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:21.370 align:middle line:90% And I'll undertake that later. 00:50:21.370 --> 00:50:25.180 align:middle line:84% And then, there's the issue of Three Mile Island, which 00:50:25.180 --> 00:50:30.190 align:middle line:84% occurred in, I think it was March of 1979. 00:50:30.190 --> 00:50:32.620 align:middle line:84% I went to work for the Nuclear Regulatory Commission 00:50:32.620 --> 00:50:35.530 align:middle line:90% in June of 1979. 00:50:35.530 --> 00:50:38.860 align:middle line:84% So we can talk about more of that later. 00:50:38.860 --> 00:50:42.700 align:middle line:84% Then came what we call the STS voodoo. 00:50:42.700 --> 00:50:44.500 align:middle line:84% STS stands for many things depending 00:50:44.500 --> 00:50:46.150 align:middle line:90% on who you're talking to. 00:50:46.150 --> 00:50:50.240 align:middle line:84% It can be science and technology as a side. 00:50:50.240 --> 00:50:55.180 align:middle line:84% And what I'm going to do is say that engineering ethics 00:50:55.180 --> 00:50:57.670 align:middle line:90% came out of this movement. 00:50:57.670 --> 00:51:00.790 align:middle line:84% So I'm going to talk about engineering ethics 00:51:00.790 --> 00:51:07.210 align:middle line:84% as an engagement of two learner disciplines, engineering, 00:51:07.210 --> 00:51:08.860 align:middle line:90% and ethics. 00:51:08.860 --> 00:51:13.390 align:middle line:84% And we have other divisions of the STS movement. 00:51:13.390 --> 00:51:15.970 align:middle line:84% And I would even include, of course, technology 00:51:15.970 --> 00:51:17.890 align:middle line:90% and public policy as part of it. 00:51:17.890 --> 00:51:19.780 align:middle line:84% I would include BSD as part of it. 00:51:19.780 --> 00:51:22.750 align:middle line:84% And the history of technology and others 00:51:22.750 --> 00:51:25.840 align:middle line:84% came in with this particular movement. 00:51:25.840 --> 00:51:30.190 align:middle line:84% I am going to talk about STS as being 00:51:30.190 --> 00:51:31.840 align:middle line:90% an abbreviation for science-- 00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:35.560 align:middle line:84% I'm sorry, for society and technology studies. 00:51:35.560 --> 00:51:37.390 align:middle line:84% I'll talk about it as the field of study 00:51:37.390 --> 00:51:40.420 align:middle line:84% in which problems intersecting the social and technological 00:51:40.420 --> 00:51:43.930 align:middle line:84% worlds are addressed by engagements of two 00:51:43.930 --> 00:51:45.340 align:middle line:90% or more learner disciplines. 00:51:45.340 --> 00:51:47.240 align:middle line:84% And the two disciplines, of course, 00:51:47.240 --> 00:51:51.020 align:middle line:84% that I'm going to start with our ethics and engineering. 00:51:51.020 --> 00:51:54.700 align:middle line:84% Now thanks to Segun, we've talked a lot about ethics. 00:51:54.700 --> 00:51:59.570 align:middle line:84% And you can talk a lot about it from the Greek tradition. 00:51:59.570 --> 00:52:01.600 align:middle line:84% This is Raphael School of Athens. 00:52:01.600 --> 00:52:02.680 align:middle line:90% I guess you can see that. 00:52:02.680 --> 00:52:07.840 align:middle line:84% I have a soft part in my heart for Raphael 00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:10.280 align:middle line:84% and those pictures in the Vatican. 00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:13.900 align:middle line:84% A point that I'm going to make in the next slide 00:52:13.900 --> 00:52:19.300 align:middle line:84% is that although we have all of our Greek scholars 00:52:19.300 --> 00:52:27.220 align:middle line:84% right here from antiquity, this is Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, 00:52:27.220 --> 00:52:28.090 align:middle line:90% Diogenes. 00:52:28.090 --> 00:52:30.910 align:middle line:90% They're all here. 00:52:30.910 --> 00:52:32.800 align:middle line:84% The engineers in the room will understand 00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:35.770 align:middle line:84% that this is a Roman vaulted ceiling 00:52:35.770 --> 00:52:39.250 align:middle line:84% and that no Greek had ever seen that structure. 00:52:39.250 --> 00:52:41.350 align:middle line:90% That is part of the painting. 00:52:41.350 --> 00:52:43.990 align:middle line:84% This is part of the wall of the Vatican 00:52:43.990 --> 00:52:47.050 align:middle line:90% on which the painting is made. 00:52:47.050 --> 00:52:53.590 align:middle line:84% The idea here is that in the period 1503 to 1513, 00:52:53.590 --> 00:52:56.380 align:middle line:84% when Julius II was Pope and commissioned 00:52:56.380 --> 00:53:01.570 align:middle line:84% this painting, that Greek philosophy now 00:53:01.570 --> 00:53:07.090 align:middle line:90% has a place in Christendom. 00:53:07.090 --> 00:53:11.680 align:middle line:84% Aristotle is pointing out with his hands down like this 00:53:11.680 --> 00:53:14.110 align:middle line:84% to signify that he's interested in science 00:53:14.110 --> 00:53:16.060 align:middle line:90% and the physical world. 00:53:16.060 --> 00:53:20.830 align:middle line:84% Plato has his hands up, his finger up, 00:53:20.830 --> 00:53:24.460 align:middle line:84% because he's pointing to issues in philosophy-- 00:53:24.460 --> 00:53:26.710 align:middle line:90% I'm sorry, issues in ethics. 00:53:26.710 --> 00:53:28.360 align:middle line:90% Aristotle also had an ethics. 00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:33.280 align:middle line:84% And the ethics tradition that Segun talked about, 00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:39.140 align:middle line:84% being rational, follows from this particular tradition. 00:53:39.140 --> 00:53:42.800 align:middle line:90% Plato had a different idea. 00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:46.190 align:middle line:84% Plato had the idea that there was such a thing 00:53:46.190 --> 00:53:47.460 align:middle line:90% as an ethical person. 00:53:47.460 --> 00:53:50.030 align:middle line:84% Better stated, there's such a thing as a virtuous person. 00:53:50.030 --> 00:53:52.990 align:middle line:90% 00:53:52.990 --> 00:53:55.380 align:middle line:84% For him, those were Greek virtues. 00:53:55.380 --> 00:53:56.520 align:middle line:90% It was a warrior society. 00:53:56.520 --> 00:53:59.130 align:middle line:84% Nonetheless, there's an ethical person. 00:53:59.130 --> 00:54:01.230 align:middle line:84% And the ethical thing to do is what 00:54:01.230 --> 00:54:04.090 align:middle line:90% an ethical person would do. 00:54:04.090 --> 00:54:07.860 align:middle line:84% It's not a deductive process of reason. 00:54:07.860 --> 00:54:13.320 align:middle line:84% So you find an ethical person when you get into a situation. 00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:18.520 align:middle line:84% You put that person in your mind into your situation. 00:54:18.520 --> 00:54:20.820 align:middle line:84% And as an improvisational play would do, 00:54:20.820 --> 00:54:22.770 align:middle line:84% you let that person work themselves out 00:54:22.770 --> 00:54:25.210 align:middle line:90% in that position-- situation. 00:54:25.210 --> 00:54:27.090 align:middle line:84% And then, the good thing to do is 00:54:27.090 --> 00:54:29.160 align:middle line:84% to imitate what that person would do. 00:54:29.160 --> 00:54:32.280 align:middle line:84% There is the narrative in ethics. 00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:33.420 align:middle line:90% You tell a story. 00:54:33.420 --> 00:54:37.940 align:middle line:90% 00:54:37.940 --> 00:54:42.860 align:middle line:84% Two things about what Plato, I think, 00:54:42.860 --> 00:54:45.380 align:middle line:84% handed down to us from science is 00:54:45.380 --> 00:54:50.150 align:middle line:84% that ethics from the rational point of view 00:54:50.150 --> 00:54:52.790 align:middle line:90% does much of what science does. 00:54:52.790 --> 00:55:00.500 align:middle line:84% There is a branch of rational ethics that says, well, 00:55:00.500 --> 00:55:05.990 align:middle line:84% a thing is right if it conforms to the right principle. 00:55:05.990 --> 00:55:07.760 align:middle line:84% And you can arrive at those principles 00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:13.160 align:middle line:90% through a rational process. 00:55:13.160 --> 00:55:14.120 align:middle line:90% Don't steal. 00:55:14.120 --> 00:55:18.550 align:middle line:84% You can reason that out, that one should not steal. 00:55:18.550 --> 00:55:20.295 align:middle line:84% In science and in mathematics, there's 00:55:20.295 --> 00:55:21.670 align:middle line:84% such a thing as rational science. 00:55:21.670 --> 00:55:23.950 align:middle line:84% And mathematics is, for the most part, rational. 00:55:23.950 --> 00:55:25.240 align:middle line:90% One plus one equals two. 00:55:25.240 --> 00:55:27.340 align:middle line:84% You don't have to test that physically. 00:55:27.340 --> 00:55:30.040 align:middle line:90% You reason that out in the mind. 00:55:30.040 --> 00:55:33.430 align:middle line:84% There's another tradition in ethics which is empirical. 00:55:33.430 --> 00:55:35.980 align:middle line:84% It's called-- one of the famous pieces 00:55:35.980 --> 00:55:38.020 align:middle line:84% of that is John Stuart Mill, Jeremy 00:55:38.020 --> 00:55:41.140 align:middle line:90% Bentham with utilitarianism. 00:55:41.140 --> 00:55:46.340 align:middle line:84% A thing is right if it tends to produce good consequences. 00:55:46.340 --> 00:55:48.820 align:middle line:84% So that looks like empirical science, 00:55:48.820 --> 00:55:52.180 align:middle line:84% where we're talking about we know something 00:55:52.180 --> 00:55:57.640 align:middle line:84% when we can test it through our sensory apparatus. 00:55:57.640 --> 00:55:59.980 align:middle line:84% Now there's a very important point I want to make here. 00:55:59.980 --> 00:56:03.580 align:middle line:84% And that is that just because science 00:56:03.580 --> 00:56:06.970 align:middle line:84% has the rational and the empirical approaches 00:56:06.970 --> 00:56:10.570 align:middle line:84% and ethics has rational empirical approaches, 00:56:10.570 --> 00:56:12.730 align:middle line:90% I am going to take a position. 00:56:12.730 --> 00:56:17.370 align:middle line:84% That doesn't mean that science and ethics are the same thing. 00:56:17.370 --> 00:56:21.060 align:middle line:84% There's something different that we add to that. 00:56:21.060 --> 00:56:22.620 align:middle line:84% I am going to say that part of it 00:56:22.620 --> 00:56:25.620 align:middle line:84% is what Thomas Coon talked about when 00:56:25.620 --> 00:56:33.090 align:middle line:84% he said that each individual discipline has a Gestalt, has 00:56:33.090 --> 00:56:36.210 align:middle line:84% a point of view, a way of looking at the world, 00:56:36.210 --> 00:56:39.090 align:middle line:84% and that a scientist and an ethicist 00:56:39.090 --> 00:56:43.500 align:middle line:84% can look at the same thing and see different things. 00:56:43.500 --> 00:56:46.710 align:middle line:84% And I'll say a little bit more about that. 00:56:46.710 --> 00:56:52.770 align:middle line:84% I think that when we're talking about the humanities, 00:56:52.770 --> 00:56:57.720 align:middle line:84% we can talk about two great divisions of the humanities. 00:56:57.720 --> 00:57:00.660 align:middle line:84% I'm sorry, we can talk about humanities and the sciences 00:57:00.660 --> 00:57:05.735 align:middle line:84% as two great dimensions of our intellectual tradition. 00:57:05.735 --> 00:57:07.110 align:middle line:84% And there are two things that are 00:57:07.110 --> 00:57:09.060 align:middle line:84% going to be very important to talking 00:57:09.060 --> 00:57:10.780 align:middle line:90% about learner disciplines. 00:57:10.780 --> 00:57:12.210 align:middle line:90% One is specialty. 00:57:12.210 --> 00:57:16.290 align:middle line:84% That is, what special learning do people have 00:57:16.290 --> 00:57:19.680 align:middle line:90% when they claim to be scholars? 00:57:19.680 --> 00:57:23.400 align:middle line:84% And the second thing, which is a little bit subtle 00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:25.920 align:middle line:84% and tends for most places to be a little bit 00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:30.960 align:middle line:84% mean-spirited, and that's what I call forte. 00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:34.470 align:middle line:84% If you are a scientist, then you claim 00:57:34.470 --> 00:57:39.330 align:middle line:84% to have a forte, a special claim on the cognition, 00:57:39.330 --> 00:57:42.210 align:middle line:84% the production of knowledge from that part of our minds 00:57:42.210 --> 00:57:44.700 align:middle line:90% that we call the cognition. 00:57:44.700 --> 00:57:47.400 align:middle line:84% If you're an ethicist, then you claim 00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:50.640 align:middle line:84% to have a special claim on the affect, 00:57:50.640 --> 00:57:55.470 align:middle line:84% that you can bring feelings into the rational domain 00:57:55.470 --> 00:57:57.690 align:middle line:84% and mix-- and make value judgments, 00:57:57.690 --> 00:58:02.730 align:middle line:84% not knowledge claims, but value judgments. 00:58:02.730 --> 00:58:05.760 align:middle line:84% That is important because when we talk about engineering, 00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:07.890 align:middle line:84% I want to talk about a different specialty 00:58:07.890 --> 00:58:12.180 align:middle line:90% and a different forte. 00:58:12.180 --> 00:58:15.030 align:middle line:90% I'm not here to teach religion. 00:58:15.030 --> 00:58:19.620 align:middle line:84% But I think that the answers to my question 00:58:19.620 --> 00:58:24.300 align:middle line:84% were perfected in the medieval universities. 00:58:24.300 --> 00:58:26.490 align:middle line:84% And I'm only talking about Western society. 00:58:26.490 --> 00:58:30.360 align:middle line:84% I will introduce other parts of the world 00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:31.990 align:middle line:90% towards the end of my talk. 00:58:31.990 --> 00:58:35.010 align:middle line:84% But in the Western universities, the medieval universities, 00:58:35.010 --> 00:58:38.670 align:middle line:84% the 500 universities in Western Europe, 00:58:38.670 --> 00:58:41.130 align:middle line:84% that there was something that was perfected there. 00:58:41.130 --> 00:58:46.110 align:middle line:84% And we cannot just leave out the fact that most of those 00:58:46.110 --> 00:58:50.580 align:middle line:84% institutions were institutions that were sponsored 00:58:50.580 --> 00:58:53.430 align:middle line:90% by the clergy. 00:58:53.430 --> 00:58:55.050 align:middle line:90% And what did they say? 00:58:55.050 --> 00:58:57.900 align:middle line:90% And what did they leave us? 00:58:57.900 --> 00:58:58.620 align:middle line:90% All right. 00:58:58.620 --> 00:59:01.200 align:middle line:84% And one of the things that the clergy was 00:59:01.200 --> 00:59:08.010 align:middle line:84% interested in in the Western world, Western world 00:59:08.010 --> 00:59:12.000 align:middle line:84% after Constantine had made Christianity the state religion 00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:15.570 align:middle line:84% of the Roman Empire and moved the garrisons from Rome 00:59:15.570 --> 00:59:21.360 align:middle line:84% to what we call Istanbul, that the Western society had 00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:23.160 align:middle line:90% a major interest in mind. 00:59:23.160 --> 00:59:25.500 align:middle line:90% And that was social order. 00:59:25.500 --> 00:59:30.510 align:middle line:84% This is another painting by Raphael in the same room where 00:59:30.510 --> 00:59:33.120 align:middle line:90% the first painting was. 00:59:33.120 --> 00:59:35.670 align:middle line:84% And all of the principles, the three principles 00:59:35.670 --> 00:59:38.190 align:middle line:84% of social order that they talk about in those days 00:59:38.190 --> 00:59:42.000 align:middle line:84% and they still talk about, are represented here. 00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:46.830 align:middle line:84% That a society is held intact if the individual members 00:59:46.830 --> 00:59:50.700 align:middle line:84% of society see that it's in their personal interest 00:59:50.700 --> 00:59:53.015 align:middle line:90% to be a part of the society. 00:59:53.015 --> 00:59:55.710 align:middle line:90% 00:59:55.710 --> 00:59:58.430 align:middle line:84% The second principle is that there 00:59:58.430 --> 01:00:00.350 align:middle line:84% has to be a principle that brings them 01:00:00.350 --> 01:00:03.740 align:middle line:84% all together as one, that is a higher 01:00:03.740 --> 01:00:05.960 align:middle line:84% principle in itself in as much as the people are 01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:08.360 align:middle line:90% willing to die for it. 01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:11.540 align:middle line:84% This symbolism is here, where they all 01:00:11.540 --> 01:00:15.640 align:middle line:84% are looking at something that is higher than self. 01:00:15.640 --> 01:00:18.860 align:middle line:84% It's actually a performance of a miracle they see in here. 01:00:18.860 --> 01:00:23.930 align:middle line:84% And that one is willing to die for it. 01:00:23.930 --> 01:00:25.670 align:middle line:84% I call that the priestly principle. 01:00:25.670 --> 01:00:29.030 align:middle line:84% The third principle of social order 01:00:29.030 --> 01:00:35.180 align:middle line:84% is that a society is held intact by force. 01:00:35.180 --> 01:00:38.240 align:middle line:84% And that instead of having a high priest 01:00:38.240 --> 01:00:40.820 align:middle line:84% at the head of that particular principle, 01:00:40.820 --> 01:00:42.980 align:middle line:90% you have virtually a king. 01:00:42.980 --> 01:00:47.930 align:middle line:84% And the king has powers over military and police forces. 01:00:47.930 --> 01:00:51.650 align:middle line:84% And what I want to argue is that what 01:00:51.650 --> 01:00:54.410 align:middle line:84% we call learner disciplines are actually 01:00:54.410 --> 01:00:56.510 align:middle line:84% organized around these principles, these three 01:00:56.510 --> 01:00:58.720 align:middle line:90% principles of order. 01:00:58.720 --> 01:01:00.850 align:middle line:84% And what I wanted to say in the end 01:01:00.850 --> 01:01:03.130 align:middle line:84% that the Greeks brought to us, mainly 01:01:03.130 --> 01:01:06.310 align:middle line:84% through the sacrifices of Socrates, 01:01:06.310 --> 01:01:15.970 align:middle line:84% the principle that the individual and reason is what 01:01:15.970 --> 01:01:20.740 align:middle line:84% is the goal of the popular principle of order. 01:01:20.740 --> 01:01:23.680 align:middle line:84% But there are two other principles of order that 01:01:23.680 --> 01:01:25.210 align:middle line:90% come out of this tradition. 01:01:25.210 --> 01:01:29.410 align:middle line:84% And we'll find engineering in one of them. 01:01:29.410 --> 01:01:32.940 align:middle line:90% 01:01:32.940 --> 01:01:37.650 align:middle line:84% What I want to say then is that when we talk about engineering, 01:01:37.650 --> 01:01:41.130 align:middle line:84% what we want to talk about is not 01:01:41.130 --> 01:01:44.230 align:middle line:84% the production of knowledge, not a 01:01:44.230 --> 01:01:49.930 align:middle line:84% claim to have a special claim on the cognition. 01:01:49.930 --> 01:01:54.460 align:middle line:84% That we are not going to talk about values, 01:01:54.460 --> 01:01:56.110 align:middle line:90% a specialty in values. 01:01:56.110 --> 01:01:58.420 align:middle line:84% And we're not going to talk about having 01:01:58.420 --> 01:02:00.460 align:middle line:90% special claims on the ethic. 01:02:00.460 --> 01:02:03.130 align:middle line:84% But what we're going to talk about 01:02:03.130 --> 01:02:07.270 align:middle line:84% is having a specialty on the prosecution of what 01:02:07.270 --> 01:02:11.050 align:middle line:84% is called the commitment pathway for wishes to wants 01:02:11.050 --> 01:02:14.624 align:middle line:90% to intentions to action. 01:02:14.624 --> 01:02:16.410 align:middle line:90% It's different. 01:02:16.410 --> 01:02:20.430 align:middle line:84% I want to say that we are able to move from wishes to wants 01:02:20.430 --> 01:02:23.260 align:middle line:90% if we get hope. 01:02:23.260 --> 01:02:25.600 align:middle line:84% That we're able to move from wants to intentions 01:02:25.600 --> 01:02:28.994 align:middle line:90% if we have high self-esteem. 01:02:28.994 --> 01:02:32.290 align:middle line:90% And just pause for a second. 01:02:32.290 --> 01:02:33.890 align:middle line:84% Some of what I have to say about self 01:02:33.890 --> 01:02:39.650 align:middle line:84% esteem I take from John Rawls and his theory of justice. 01:02:39.650 --> 01:02:42.500 align:middle line:84% And I want to talk about, just take a second here, 01:02:42.500 --> 01:02:44.570 align:middle line:90% about self-esteem. 01:02:44.570 --> 01:02:46.520 align:middle line:84% First of all, I want to talk about self-esteem 01:02:46.520 --> 01:02:48.020 align:middle line:90% in four dimensions. 01:02:48.020 --> 01:02:50.760 align:middle line:90% Think of it as a matrix. 01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:52.730 align:middle line:90% So two rows, two columns. 01:02:52.730 --> 01:02:55.670 align:middle line:84% In two rows, I want to talk about self-esteem 01:02:55.670 --> 01:02:59.930 align:middle line:84% being an evaluation that a person has of him or herself. 01:02:59.930 --> 01:03:02.720 align:middle line:90% 01:03:02.720 --> 01:03:06.170 align:middle line:84% The second row is an evaluation that a person 01:03:06.170 --> 01:03:12.000 align:middle line:84% has of what other people have about him or herself. 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:13.130 align:middle line:90% What do the other people-- 01:03:13.130 --> 01:03:14.780 align:middle line:90% I may think of myself as great. 01:03:14.780 --> 01:03:16.400 align:middle line:90% But nobody else thinks that way. 01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:18.050 align:middle line:90% That is the second dimension. 01:03:18.050 --> 01:03:19.970 align:middle line:90% Those are the rows. 01:03:19.970 --> 01:03:23.180 align:middle line:90% Let's look at the columns. 01:03:23.180 --> 01:03:29.390 align:middle line:84% If we talk about self esteem, we can talk about self-worth. 01:03:29.390 --> 01:03:34.340 align:middle line:84% If I think that I am not worthy of gratifying my wishes, 01:03:34.340 --> 01:03:41.810 align:middle line:84% I probably will not proceed to the dimension of intentions. 01:03:41.810 --> 01:03:45.710 align:middle line:84% And the other one is self-confidence. 01:03:45.710 --> 01:03:47.900 align:middle line:84% Do I really think I can pull this thing off? 01:03:47.900 --> 01:03:50.420 align:middle line:90% 01:03:50.420 --> 01:03:52.750 align:middle line:84% So self-esteem is important in moving from 01:03:52.750 --> 01:03:54.820 align:middle line:90% wants to intentions. 01:03:54.820 --> 01:03:56.900 align:middle line:84% When we move from intentions to action, 01:03:56.900 --> 01:04:01.240 align:middle line:84% there is the intersection, the intervention of the will. 01:04:01.240 --> 01:04:04.870 align:middle line:84% If you really don't have a strong sense of willpower, 01:04:04.870 --> 01:04:07.690 align:middle line:84% then you will not make this transition. 01:04:07.690 --> 01:04:12.730 align:middle line:84% I want to say that engineering belongs to the category. 01:04:12.730 --> 01:04:17.770 align:middle line:84% Whereas, the specialty is in being able to move along 01:04:17.770 --> 01:04:19.870 align:middle line:90% this commitment pathway. 01:04:19.870 --> 01:04:24.700 align:middle line:84% And that our forte is a special claim 01:04:24.700 --> 01:04:27.550 align:middle line:84% on what is called the connection, which includes 01:04:27.550 --> 01:04:31.990 align:middle line:84% the will, self-esteem, hope, and some other parts 01:04:31.990 --> 01:04:34.750 align:middle line:90% of our abilities to learn. 01:04:34.750 --> 01:04:39.490 align:middle line:90% 01:04:39.490 --> 01:04:42.790 align:middle line:84% Now I want to talk about how to engage two learner disciplines. 01:04:42.790 --> 01:04:46.920 align:middle line:84% And in order to do it, we're going to need a language. 01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:49.500 align:middle line:84% We're going to need some grammar. 01:04:49.500 --> 01:04:50.910 align:middle line:90% We can use natural language. 01:04:50.910 --> 01:04:53.010 align:middle line:84% We're going to use natural language. 01:04:53.010 --> 01:04:57.090 align:middle line:84% But I want to apend to that language something 01:04:57.090 --> 01:05:05.070 align:middle line:84% that engineers call systems diagrams. 01:05:05.070 --> 01:05:09.000 align:middle line:84% Now if you relax, you'll get it all. 01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:12.870 align:middle line:84% If you get tense, it'll escape you. 01:05:12.870 --> 01:05:15.485 align:middle line:84% But if you relax, you will get it all. 01:05:15.485 --> 01:05:16.860 align:middle line:84% And I will tell you why I'm going 01:05:16.860 --> 01:05:18.130 align:middle line:90% to do that in just a minute. 01:05:18.130 --> 01:05:19.980 align:middle line:90% But let's do it first. 01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:23.970 align:middle line:84% If I say that boss pressured Kermit, 01:05:23.970 --> 01:05:26.370 align:middle line:84% then I can represent that sentence 01:05:26.370 --> 01:05:30.750 align:middle line:90% as two circles and an arrow. 01:05:30.750 --> 01:05:32.710 align:middle line:90% Two circles represent nouns. 01:05:32.710 --> 01:05:35.070 align:middle line:90% An arrow represents a verb. 01:05:35.070 --> 01:05:39.670 align:middle line:84% The arrow points from the subject to the object. 01:05:39.670 --> 01:05:40.770 align:middle line:90% So this is the boss. 01:05:40.770 --> 01:05:41.550 align:middle line:90% This is Kermit. 01:05:41.550 --> 01:05:45.180 align:middle line:90% And the P means Pressure. 01:05:45.180 --> 01:05:48.060 align:middle line:90% I can say Kermit falsified data. 01:05:48.060 --> 01:05:50.190 align:middle line:90% Kermit falsified data. 01:05:50.190 --> 01:05:53.070 align:middle line:84% I can also say, boss pressured Kermit then 01:05:53.070 --> 01:05:54.810 align:middle line:90% Kermit falsified data. 01:05:54.810 --> 01:05:58.080 align:middle line:84% And there, I can represent that as the connection. 01:05:58.080 --> 01:05:59.880 align:middle line:84% Well, I want to do that because I 01:05:59.880 --> 01:06:04.020 align:middle line:84% want to do something that is very important to what 01:06:04.020 --> 01:06:04.800 align:middle line:90% I have just said. 01:06:04.800 --> 01:06:07.080 align:middle line:84% And that is I want to see the pictures. 01:06:07.080 --> 01:06:12.120 align:middle line:84% I said, if a person in two different learner disciplines 01:06:12.120 --> 01:06:16.313 align:middle line:84% see the world differently, how can I tell you what they see? 01:06:16.313 --> 01:06:17.730 align:middle line:84% Well, one of the things I could do 01:06:17.730 --> 01:06:19.147 align:middle line:84% is create a metaphor for what they 01:06:19.147 --> 01:06:24.110 align:middle line:84% see by analyzing their words in terms of the picture. 01:06:24.110 --> 01:06:26.180 align:middle line:90% And I'll do that. 01:06:26.180 --> 01:06:34.820 align:middle line:84% Now one mode in which you can engage engineering and ethics 01:06:34.820 --> 01:06:37.770 align:middle line:84% is to talk about ethics as a social system. 01:06:37.770 --> 01:06:39.743 align:middle line:84% So all of my circles here are people. 01:06:39.743 --> 01:06:40.660 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 2: Taft? 01:06:40.660 --> 01:06:40.820 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 01:06:40.820 --> 01:06:41.550 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER 2: Sorry to interrupt you. 01:06:41.550 --> 01:06:42.170 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 01:06:42.170 --> 01:06:44.045 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER 2: Help us to place the diagram 01:06:44.045 --> 01:06:46.923 align:middle line:84% that you showed with the picture that was behind it. 01:06:46.923 --> 01:06:47.840 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: That one? 01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:48.830 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 2: Yeah. 01:06:48.830 --> 01:06:50.060 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Place that picture with the one 01:06:50.060 --> 01:06:50.780 align:middle line:90% that I just put up? 01:06:50.780 --> 01:06:52.490 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER 2: With the words that we've just heard. 01:06:52.490 --> 01:06:53.820 align:middle line:90% Why did you pick that diagram? 01:06:53.820 --> 01:06:54.440 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 1: That painting. 01:06:54.440 --> 01:06:55.527 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Oh, these particular words? 01:06:55.527 --> 01:06:56.600 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 1: That painting. 01:06:56.600 --> 01:06:57.380 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Oh, this painting? 01:06:57.380 --> 01:06:58.297 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 2: Yeah. 01:06:58.297 --> 01:06:59.324 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:06:59.324 --> 01:07:02.240 align:middle line:90% 01:07:02.240 --> 01:07:07.430 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: This painting was painted in 1650 01:07:07.430 --> 01:07:10.820 align:middle line:90% by a man named La Hyre. 01:07:10.820 --> 01:07:17.110 align:middle line:84% And he entitled it The Allegory of Grammar. 01:07:17.110 --> 01:07:23.470 align:middle line:84% And what he-- my interpretation of this painting is that here, 01:07:23.470 --> 01:07:28.150 align:middle line:84% this woman is performing an act and capturing 01:07:28.150 --> 01:07:30.191 align:middle line:90% that act in words. 01:07:30.191 --> 01:07:31.108 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 2: Nice. 01:07:31.108 --> 01:07:34.510 align:middle line:90% 01:07:34.510 --> 01:07:37.710 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So that moves me as a-- 01:07:37.710 --> 01:07:39.420 align:middle line:90% hopefully, it'll move you. 01:07:39.420 --> 01:07:41.348 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:07:41.348 --> 01:07:46.173 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 1: [INAUDIBLE] 01:07:46.173 --> 01:07:48.090 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: We can talk about what a person-- 01:07:48.090 --> 01:07:54.480 align:middle line:84% we can talk about how to engage ethics with engineering. 01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:59.070 align:middle line:84% And we can say, first of all, represent a social system 01:07:59.070 --> 01:08:00.210 align:middle line:90% using systems language. 01:08:00.210 --> 01:08:05.410 align:middle line:84% And we're also not giving up on their natural language. 01:08:05.410 --> 01:08:08.160 align:middle line:90% We're still going to use words. 01:08:08.160 --> 01:08:10.860 align:middle line:84% And these arrows show the interactions of those people. 01:08:10.860 --> 01:08:12.570 align:middle line:84% And we can use ethics to talk about 01:08:12.570 --> 01:08:16.170 align:middle line:84% whether these interactions are good or bad. 01:08:16.170 --> 01:08:18.660 align:middle line:84% We can also talk about a technological system. 01:08:18.660 --> 01:08:21.840 align:middle line:84% But I did not represent in this mode what 01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:26.640 align:middle line:84% we call an analytical or an analysis of the technology, 01:08:26.640 --> 01:08:30.630 align:middle line:84% because in the case, for example, with Agnew bribery 01:08:30.630 --> 01:08:35.700 align:middle line:84% scandal, then we involved engineers and engineering. 01:08:35.700 --> 01:08:39.250 align:middle line:84% But we really don't have to know a lot about it. 01:08:39.250 --> 01:08:42.689 align:middle line:84% So this is cross-disciplinary in the sense 01:08:42.689 --> 01:08:48.712 align:middle line:84% that the tools and methods of ethics dominate the discussion. 01:08:48.712 --> 01:08:51.580 align:middle line:90% All right? 01:08:51.580 --> 01:08:54.550 align:middle line:84% And the second mode, when we're talking 01:08:54.550 --> 01:08:57.640 align:middle line:84% about the challenger and the O-ring, 01:08:57.640 --> 01:09:01.000 align:middle line:84% and when we're talking about the Bhopal instance and chemistry-- 01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:04.670 align:middle line:84% and a chemical plant, we're going 01:09:04.670 --> 01:09:08.000 align:middle line:84% to have to know something about the technological system. 01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:09.529 align:middle line:90% So we look at it analytically. 01:09:09.529 --> 01:09:11.569 align:middle line:84% These black circles are being parts 01:09:11.569 --> 01:09:14.147 align:middle line:90% of the technological system. 01:09:14.147 --> 01:09:15.450 align:middle line:90% All right? 01:09:15.450 --> 01:09:19.020 align:middle line:84% And we can talk about the interactions of those. 01:09:19.020 --> 01:09:21.300 align:middle line:84% And now, we're in a good position 01:09:21.300 --> 01:09:26.250 align:middle line:84% to talk about the consequences of our actions 01:09:26.250 --> 01:09:29.189 align:middle line:84% because we know how the system works. 01:09:29.189 --> 01:09:31.529 align:middle line:84% We can say that we act as a society 01:09:31.529 --> 01:09:33.390 align:middle line:90% in a certain way on the system. 01:09:33.390 --> 01:09:35.790 align:middle line:84% The system acts on the environment again. 01:09:35.790 --> 01:09:39.580 align:middle line:84% And then, feedback feeds back to our society. 01:09:39.580 --> 01:09:42.779 align:middle line:84% Now we can talk about how the system hurts people 01:09:42.779 --> 01:09:45.350 align:middle line:90% as a consequence. 01:09:45.350 --> 01:09:47.870 align:middle line:84% And this is, I call, the multidisciplinary mode 01:09:47.870 --> 01:09:53.620 align:middle line:84% because no one discipline dominates the discussion. 01:09:53.620 --> 01:09:56.120 align:middle line:84% Ethics does not dominate this discussion. 01:09:56.120 --> 01:09:58.472 align:middle line:84% Engineering does not dominate this discussion. 01:09:58.472 --> 01:09:59.555 align:middle line:90% They are brought together. 01:09:59.555 --> 01:10:02.310 align:middle line:90% 01:10:02.310 --> 01:10:04.190 align:middle line:84% I'm going to talk about two cases 01:10:04.190 --> 01:10:07.730 align:middle line:90% of the interdisciplinary mode. 01:10:07.730 --> 01:10:13.820 align:middle line:84% And this case here is particularly 01:10:13.820 --> 01:10:17.320 align:middle line:84% interesting, I think, compelling, 01:10:17.320 --> 01:10:21.230 align:middle line:84% on graduate students doing doctoral dissertations, 01:10:21.230 --> 01:10:23.180 align:middle line:84% because what I want to talk about now 01:10:23.180 --> 01:10:27.050 align:middle line:84% is the engagement of two disciplines where in order 01:10:27.050 --> 01:10:32.630 align:middle line:84% to solve your problem, you may have to give up or violate 01:10:32.630 --> 01:10:38.030 align:middle line:84% one of the first principles in one of the disciplines. 01:10:38.030 --> 01:10:41.980 align:middle line:84% So if you're writing a dissertation on engineering 01:10:41.980 --> 01:10:48.190 align:middle line:84% ethics, and you think that in order to solve the problem 01:10:48.190 --> 01:10:50.590 align:middle line:84% you're going to have to do something that ethicists don't 01:10:50.590 --> 01:10:55.960 align:middle line:84% do, and there's an ethicist on your committee, 01:10:55.960 --> 01:10:58.090 align:middle line:84% how do you deal with that person? 01:10:58.090 --> 01:11:00.190 align:middle line:90% This is interdisciplinary. 01:11:00.190 --> 01:11:08.720 align:middle line:84% And there was a case that I would like to tell you about. 01:11:08.720 --> 01:11:11.620 align:middle line:84% But I'll tell you about it in whatever Q&A period 01:11:11.620 --> 01:11:13.670 align:middle line:90% we have afterwards. 01:11:13.670 --> 01:11:17.770 align:middle line:84% But it's a case when I went on a job, 01:11:17.770 --> 01:11:20.500 align:middle line:84% on my first job as an engineer, actually. 01:11:20.500 --> 01:11:24.910 align:middle line:84% And I had to solve a problem by putting 01:11:24.910 --> 01:11:27.460 align:middle line:84% a person in my situation, working 01:11:27.460 --> 01:11:29.210 align:middle line:84% that person through the situation, 01:11:29.210 --> 01:11:31.570 align:middle line:90% and then imitating that person. 01:11:31.570 --> 01:11:35.095 align:middle line:84% Now where I broke away from all that we 01:11:35.095 --> 01:11:38.050 align:middle line:84% have talked about with ethics is that I did not 01:11:38.050 --> 01:11:40.180 align:middle line:84% put a virtuous person in this position. 01:11:40.180 --> 01:11:42.800 align:middle line:90% 01:11:42.800 --> 01:11:47.060 align:middle line:84% I didn't do it because the situation was of a typical kind 01:11:47.060 --> 01:11:48.230 align:middle line:90% that engineers face. 01:11:48.230 --> 01:11:53.120 align:middle line:84% Number one, I had to make the decision right away. 01:11:53.120 --> 01:11:55.220 align:middle line:84% I did not have reflective time to think 01:11:55.220 --> 01:12:01.100 align:middle line:84% about which person to choose and what that person would do. 01:12:01.100 --> 01:12:04.000 align:middle line:84% Secondly, the situation was complex. 01:12:04.000 --> 01:12:05.190 align:middle line:90% That is, it was novel. 01:12:05.190 --> 01:12:09.370 align:middle line:84% You cannot practice for a lot of situations that engineers get 01:12:09.370 --> 01:12:12.280 align:middle line:84% into because the systems are too complex. 01:12:12.280 --> 01:12:14.540 align:middle line:84% Think of Three Mile Island, for example. 01:12:14.540 --> 01:12:17.930 align:middle line:84% Nobody was prepared for anything like that. 01:12:17.930 --> 01:12:21.910 align:middle line:84% And thirdly, the situation was potentially lethal 01:12:21.910 --> 01:12:26.590 align:middle line:84% and had a high-potential for high-lethality. 01:12:26.590 --> 01:12:28.000 align:middle line:90% What I did was put up-- 01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:30.460 align:middle line:84% I went first of all to literature. 01:12:30.460 --> 01:12:32.502 align:middle line:90% I went to Africa first. 01:12:32.502 --> 01:12:33.460 align:middle line:90% I didn't physically go. 01:12:33.460 --> 01:12:36.670 align:middle line:84% But I went there to get some ideas. 01:12:36.670 --> 01:12:39.640 align:middle line:90% I wound up going to Jerusalem. 01:12:39.640 --> 01:12:42.970 align:middle line:90% I wound up going to Estonia. 01:12:42.970 --> 01:12:48.250 align:middle line:84% And I found a cultural tradition outside of the West 01:12:48.250 --> 01:12:51.580 align:middle line:84% in which you put a person in your situation 01:12:51.580 --> 01:12:54.550 align:middle line:84% that you want to imitate who will not necessarily 01:12:54.550 --> 01:12:56.260 align:middle line:90% do the right thing. 01:12:56.260 --> 01:13:01.010 align:middle line:84% But after they've done it, they tend to get forgiven for it. 01:13:01.010 --> 01:13:05.860 align:middle line:84% Now we do have some models for that in Western society. 01:13:05.860 --> 01:13:08.770 align:middle line:84% First of all, first of all, if you like basketball, 01:13:08.770 --> 01:13:12.550 align:middle line:84% then you know there's such a thing called the good foul. 01:13:12.550 --> 01:13:15.760 align:middle line:84% You intentionally break the rules. 01:13:15.760 --> 01:13:20.390 align:middle line:84% You want the referee to punish you for doing it. 01:13:20.390 --> 01:13:22.460 align:middle line:84% And after you've done it, your opponent 01:13:22.460 --> 01:13:26.760 align:middle line:84% will give you five, say, good five. 01:13:26.760 --> 01:13:32.760 align:middle line:84% Martin Luther King broke the law, went to jail, 01:13:32.760 --> 01:13:36.410 align:middle line:90% and got a Nobel Prize for it. 01:13:36.410 --> 01:13:39.950 align:middle line:84% So what I'm talking about now is being able to solve-- 01:13:39.950 --> 01:13:42.290 align:middle line:84% I was able not to solve the problem. 01:13:42.290 --> 01:13:44.450 align:middle line:84% I handled the problem in such a way 01:13:44.450 --> 01:13:46.890 align:middle line:84% that I put a person in my situation 01:13:46.890 --> 01:13:48.860 align:middle line:90% and was forgiven for what I did. 01:13:48.860 --> 01:13:52.640 align:middle line:84% That particular case worked out OK. 01:13:52.640 --> 01:13:55.048 align:middle line:84% But if it had not worked out OK, I still 01:13:55.048 --> 01:13:56.090 align:middle line:90% would have been forgiven. 01:13:56.090 --> 01:13:57.860 align:middle line:84% I still would have got my old job back. 01:13:57.860 --> 01:14:01.090 align:middle line:90% 01:14:01.090 --> 01:14:04.660 align:middle line:90% And that is what I claim. 01:14:04.660 --> 01:14:08.182 align:middle line:84% And Segun and I have had some discussions on this matter. 01:14:08.182 --> 01:14:09.640 align:middle line:84% And we're going to continue to have 01:14:09.640 --> 01:14:11.090 align:middle line:90% discussions on this matter. 01:14:11.090 --> 01:14:14.830 align:middle line:84% But we think that at this point, this is either 01:14:14.830 --> 01:14:17.980 align:middle line:90% an extension of Western ethics. 01:14:17.980 --> 01:14:20.680 align:middle line:84% And my question is, is it something different from ethics 01:14:20.680 --> 01:14:22.280 align:middle line:90% altogether? 01:14:22.280 --> 01:14:25.480 align:middle line:84% And the important thing is that if I wrote this paper 01:14:25.480 --> 01:14:27.820 align:middle line:84% as a doctoral dissertation, I would 01:14:27.820 --> 01:14:30.220 align:middle line:84% hope that Dr. Gbadegesin would be 01:14:30.220 --> 01:14:31.540 align:middle line:90% the ethicist on my committee. 01:14:31.540 --> 01:14:33.820 align:middle line:84% There's not a lot of other philosophers 01:14:33.820 --> 01:14:37.445 align:middle line:84% that I know about because we're breaking the rule. 01:14:37.445 --> 01:14:38.980 align:middle line:90% All right? 01:14:38.980 --> 01:14:45.610 align:middle line:84% There's another case that hasn't-- 01:14:45.610 --> 01:14:50.830 align:middle line:84% that came about as an intrigue for me from a man 01:14:50.830 --> 01:14:53.290 align:middle line:84% that I had the privilege of meeting once named 01:14:53.290 --> 01:14:55.000 align:middle line:90% Jacques Ellul. 01:14:55.000 --> 01:15:01.660 align:middle line:84% I don't if you know him, E-L-L-U-L. He wrote a book. 01:15:01.660 --> 01:15:03.850 align:middle line:84% And the book was translated into English 01:15:03.850 --> 01:15:07.510 align:middle line:90% by Alfred Knopf in 1964. 01:15:07.510 --> 01:15:12.580 align:middle line:84% And the title of the book was The Technological Society. 01:15:12.580 --> 01:15:17.680 align:middle line:84% The intrigue for me was that I had thought 01:15:17.680 --> 01:15:22.060 align:middle line:84% after reading that book, or after I read 1/2 of the book, 01:15:22.060 --> 01:15:25.750 align:middle line:84% that Ellul should be called the father, the founding father, 01:15:25.750 --> 01:15:27.820 align:middle line:90% of STS. 01:15:27.820 --> 01:15:31.870 align:middle line:84% He never achieved that status outside of France. 01:15:31.870 --> 01:15:35.770 align:middle line:84% Nobody ever proposed that he achieve that status 01:15:35.770 --> 01:15:40.270 align:middle line:84% because, number one, he conceived of society 01:15:40.270 --> 01:15:41.380 align:middle line:90% as not being-- 01:15:41.380 --> 01:15:43.960 align:middle line:84% I'm sorry, he conceived of the world 01:15:43.960 --> 01:15:48.370 align:middle line:84% as not being two societies, not being 01:15:48.370 --> 01:15:51.640 align:middle line:84% two systems, a social system and a technological system, 01:15:51.640 --> 01:15:54.520 align:middle line:84% but one system in which human beings and the technologies 01:15:54.520 --> 01:15:56.940 align:middle line:90% are the components. 01:15:56.940 --> 01:15:59.690 align:middle line:90% I thought that was a great idea. 01:15:59.690 --> 01:16:04.310 align:middle line:84% But he never became the father of STS, founding father of STS, 01:16:04.310 --> 01:16:07.640 align:middle line:84% because he said that by being a part of the system with 01:16:07.640 --> 01:16:11.060 align:middle line:84% technology, you cannot control technology. 01:16:11.060 --> 01:16:12.495 align:middle line:90% You can't see the hole. 01:16:12.495 --> 01:16:15.650 align:middle line:90% You're blinded by being in it. 01:16:15.650 --> 01:16:18.220 align:middle line:90% 01:16:18.220 --> 01:16:24.650 align:middle line:84% And the whole point of STS is to control society and technology. 01:16:24.650 --> 01:16:26.540 align:middle line:90% Well, I labored over this. 01:16:26.540 --> 01:16:34.910 align:middle line:84% And one day, I was looking at The New Yorker magazine, which 01:16:34.910 --> 01:16:37.640 align:middle line:90% my wife and I subscribe to. 01:16:37.640 --> 01:16:39.590 align:middle line:84% And I just couldn't put down the cover. 01:16:39.590 --> 01:16:41.210 align:middle line:84% And I asked my wife, what do you see? 01:16:41.210 --> 01:16:44.270 align:middle line:90% 01:16:44.270 --> 01:16:48.510 align:middle line:84% And my wife says, well, she said, 01:16:48.510 --> 01:16:53.220 align:middle line:84% what I see are people using technologies 01:16:53.220 --> 01:16:58.040 align:middle line:84% that looks like a little technological society. 01:16:58.040 --> 01:17:02.480 align:middle line:84% And she says, I certainly see this picture 01:17:02.480 --> 01:17:06.260 align:middle line:84% from the child's point of view because from the child's point 01:17:06.260 --> 01:17:09.800 align:middle line:84% of view, adults have small heads because their heads are 01:17:09.800 --> 01:17:12.140 align:middle line:90% far back and way up. 01:17:12.140 --> 01:17:15.440 align:middle line:84% And their feet and legs are big and menacing 01:17:15.440 --> 01:17:17.180 align:middle line:84% not only because they're close up, 01:17:17.180 --> 01:17:18.530 align:middle line:90% but because they're dangerous. 01:17:18.530 --> 01:17:20.780 align:middle line:90% They can step on little kids. 01:17:20.780 --> 01:17:24.770 align:middle line:84% And so it's certainly-- and she's in the foreground. 01:17:24.770 --> 01:17:26.990 align:middle line:84% And she's the only one with bright colors. 01:17:26.990 --> 01:17:33.635 align:middle line:84% It has to be the statement that the child is the only one still 01:17:33.635 --> 01:17:34.510 align:middle line:90% in touch with nature. 01:17:34.510 --> 01:17:37.135 align:middle line:90% 01:17:37.135 --> 01:17:38.760 align:middle line:84% I talk with a lot of people about that. 01:17:38.760 --> 01:17:42.968 align:middle line:84% Everybody agrees with that interpretation but me. 01:17:42.968 --> 01:17:44.252 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:17:44.252 --> 01:17:45.110 align:middle line:90% 01:17:45.110 --> 01:17:48.530 align:middle line:84% What I saw was the child doing her best to imitate the adults. 01:17:48.530 --> 01:17:51.200 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 2: Right. 01:17:51.200 --> 01:17:53.540 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: But that had helped me 01:17:53.540 --> 01:17:59.980 align:middle line:84% because now, I said, can I look at the society, 01:17:59.980 --> 01:18:05.950 align:middle line:84% and now step back from it, and be able to get a Gestalt of it? 01:18:05.950 --> 01:18:08.620 align:middle line:84% Can I represent the society as one person? 01:18:08.620 --> 01:18:11.980 align:middle line:90% 01:18:11.980 --> 01:18:15.040 align:middle line:84% Can I represent French people as one person? 01:18:15.040 --> 01:18:16.890 align:middle line:84% Can I represent Americans as one person? 01:18:16.890 --> 01:18:18.860 align:middle line:90% No, it takes a few more. 01:18:18.860 --> 01:18:22.960 align:middle line:84% But the point is, can I now get a Gestalt 01:18:22.960 --> 01:18:24.610 align:middle line:90% of this as one person? 01:18:24.610 --> 01:18:29.462 align:middle line:84% Because if I can, I can control it. 01:18:29.462 --> 01:18:30.610 align:middle line:90% Ellul was wrong. 01:18:30.610 --> 01:18:34.300 align:middle line:84% You can control it if you can get that Gestalt. I got it 01:18:34.300 --> 01:18:36.070 align:middle line:90% immediately. 01:18:36.070 --> 01:18:37.910 align:middle line:90% It didn't take but a minute. 01:18:37.910 --> 01:18:42.070 align:middle line:84% And that was out of a science fiction story 01:18:42.070 --> 01:18:44.200 align:middle line:90% called Circuitry Man. 01:18:44.200 --> 01:18:47.410 align:middle line:84% And this character is called Plughead. 01:18:47.410 --> 01:18:51.190 align:middle line:90% And that he is wired to the net. 01:18:51.190 --> 01:18:52.630 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:18:52.630 --> 01:18:56.530 align:middle line:84% Anything he wants to know, he Googles it. 01:18:56.530 --> 01:19:00.130 align:middle line:84% Any music he wants to hear, he downloads it, 01:19:00.130 --> 01:19:03.370 align:middle line:90% an MP3 right into the brain. 01:19:03.370 --> 01:19:05.470 align:middle line:90% He is wired. 01:19:05.470 --> 01:19:09.320 align:middle line:84% If I can understand this man as a character, 01:19:09.320 --> 01:19:13.010 align:middle line:84% I can put him in our story, work him through the story, 01:19:13.010 --> 01:19:16.300 align:middle line:84% and understand my society without going outside of it 01:19:16.300 --> 01:19:17.050 align:middle line:90% and looking back. 01:19:17.050 --> 01:19:18.190 align:middle line:90% I can stay in it. 01:19:18.190 --> 01:19:22.630 align:middle line:84% How do I get a picture, now the question is, that you share 01:19:22.630 --> 01:19:25.680 align:middle line:90% and you share with me? 01:19:25.680 --> 01:19:28.670 align:middle line:84% I can get it if we have a mythology because that's 01:19:28.670 --> 01:19:30.650 align:middle line:90% what mythology does. 01:19:30.650 --> 01:19:33.770 align:middle line:84% Mythology is able to create not just one character, but not 01:19:33.770 --> 01:19:37.700 align:middle line:84% 10,000 characters, maybe 20 or 30 characters that you 01:19:37.700 --> 01:19:42.030 align:middle line:84% can use to understand an entire culture. 01:19:42.030 --> 01:19:45.720 align:middle line:84% Do we have a mythology in the United States? 01:19:45.720 --> 01:19:48.850 align:middle line:84% Do we have a mythology for the technological world? 01:19:48.850 --> 01:19:50.220 align:middle line:90% Frankly, I think we do. 01:19:50.220 --> 01:19:52.060 align:middle line:90% And we call it science fiction. 01:19:52.060 --> 01:19:55.590 align:middle line:84% And this is my last slide, my next to the last slide. 01:19:55.590 --> 01:20:00.180 align:middle line:84% And that we can now make stories for our technological system 01:20:00.180 --> 01:20:05.910 align:middle line:84% by using this, kind of, character, heroes, technology, 01:20:05.910 --> 01:20:09.290 align:middle line:90% and other characters. 01:20:09.290 --> 01:20:15.500 align:middle line:84% And this now is what I call my replacement of Ellul's. 01:20:15.500 --> 01:20:20.900 align:middle line:84% And now, we have a special thing to say. 01:20:20.900 --> 01:20:24.050 align:middle line:84% So my closing statements that I want to leave you with, 01:20:24.050 --> 01:20:26.220 align:middle line:84% and I've been on sabbatical here. 01:20:26.220 --> 01:20:28.800 align:middle line:84% And this is my last lecture here. 01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:30.708 align:middle line:90% So this is my last will and-- 01:20:30.708 --> 01:20:32.000 align:middle line:90% not my last will and testament. 01:20:32.000 --> 01:20:33.860 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:20:33.860 --> 01:20:37.910 align:middle line:84% I'd like to leave something to MIT. 01:20:37.910 --> 01:20:45.110 align:middle line:84% And that is, number one, that a field of study 01:20:45.110 --> 01:20:47.600 align:middle line:84% that engages two or more learner disciplines 01:20:47.600 --> 01:20:55.700 align:middle line:84% can, in fact, have its own specialty and its own forte 01:20:55.700 --> 01:20:59.420 align:middle line:84% and, in a sense, have all of the necessary things 01:20:59.420 --> 01:21:02.760 align:middle line:84% that we talk about as a learner discipline in itself. 01:21:02.760 --> 01:21:06.750 align:middle line:84% The point is that it can stand on its own. 01:21:06.750 --> 01:21:09.830 align:middle line:84% It does something that none of the disciplinary parts 01:21:09.830 --> 01:21:10.610 align:middle line:90% can do alone. 01:21:10.610 --> 01:21:14.180 align:middle line:90% 01:21:14.180 --> 01:21:19.190 align:middle line:84% The second thing is that engineering, 01:21:19.190 --> 01:21:22.590 align:middle line:84% though we study engineering science quite a bit, 01:21:22.590 --> 01:21:26.870 align:middle line:84% is a learner discipline sui generis. 01:21:26.870 --> 01:21:30.020 align:middle line:84% We have our own specialty, which we do not 01:21:30.020 --> 01:21:32.780 align:middle line:90% borrow from the sciences. 01:21:32.780 --> 01:21:35.870 align:middle line:84% And we have our own forte, which we do not 01:21:35.870 --> 01:21:38.150 align:middle line:90% borrow from the cognition. 01:21:38.150 --> 01:21:39.740 align:middle line:90% We have our own. 01:21:39.740 --> 01:21:41.720 align:middle line:84% If we do not understand that, we'll 01:21:41.720 --> 01:21:45.600 align:middle line:84% always think of engineering as a second class science. 01:21:45.600 --> 01:21:47.900 align:middle line:84% And we'll never have a position for it 01:21:47.900 --> 01:21:51.620 align:middle line:84% in the general education of freshmen. 01:21:51.620 --> 01:21:52.120 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 01:21:52.120 --> 01:21:54.994 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 01:21:54.994 --> 01:22:00.270 align:middle line:90% 01:22:00.270 --> 01:22:03.120 align:middle line:84% Technically, the colloquium is over. 01:22:03.120 --> 01:22:08.100 align:middle line:84% But I am prepared, Segun is prepared, the students 01:22:08.100 --> 01:22:12.360 align:middle line:84% are prepared, to carry on the Q&A for the duration. 01:22:12.360 --> 01:22:15.175 align:middle line:84% As it goes past 1/2 an hour, somebody 01:22:15.175 --> 01:22:16.550 align:middle line:84% has to go out and get the coffee. 01:22:16.550 --> 01:22:17.967 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I just want 01:22:17.967 --> 01:22:19.790 align:middle line:84% to make sure they don't [INAUDIBLE].. 01:22:19.790 --> 01:22:24.012 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: So I'll turn it back over to the students. 01:22:24.012 --> 01:22:25.583 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 1: Thank you. 01:22:25.583 --> 01:22:26.500 align:middle line:90% Thank you, Dr. Broome. 01:22:26.500 --> 01:22:29.150 align:middle line:84% Thank you, Dr. Gbadegesin, for your comments. 01:22:29.150 --> 01:22:35.330 align:middle line:90% 01:22:35.330 --> 01:22:37.870 align:middle line:84% I think that was a really interesting summary 01:22:37.870 --> 01:22:39.730 align:middle line:84% of commonalities in different cultures 01:22:39.730 --> 01:22:42.188 align:middle line:84% and different disciplines and give us a lot to think about. 01:22:42.188 --> 01:22:43.147 align:middle line:90% Do you have a question? 01:22:43.147 --> 01:22:43.917 align:middle line:90% [INAUDIBLE] 01:22:43.917 --> 01:22:46.839 align:middle line:90% 01:22:46.839 --> 01:22:48.309 align:middle line:90% Any questions? 01:22:48.309 --> 01:22:52.620 align:middle line:90% 01:22:52.620 --> 01:22:53.400 align:middle line:90% Go ahead. 01:22:53.400 --> 01:22:56.650 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] because the question is directed 01:22:56.650 --> 01:22:57.150 align:middle line:90% towards-- 01:22:57.150 --> 01:22:57.983 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: For me? 01:22:57.983 --> 01:22:59.742 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Yes. 01:22:59.742 --> 01:23:01.200 align:middle line:84% Especially the last slide, when you 01:23:01.200 --> 01:23:04.110 align:middle line:84% went to-- there were two disciplines 01:23:04.110 --> 01:23:06.240 align:middle line:84% can have their own forte and language 01:23:06.240 --> 01:23:08.550 align:middle line:90% and create this new discipline. 01:23:08.550 --> 01:23:09.450 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 01:23:09.450 --> 01:23:11.910 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Yesterday, I attended a meeting of Center 01:23:11.910 --> 01:23:16.470 align:middle line:84% for Bits and Atoms, which is another interdisciplinary 01:23:16.470 --> 01:23:17.880 align:middle line:90% research program. 01:23:17.880 --> 01:23:20.250 align:middle line:84% And yesterday's topic of discussion 01:23:20.250 --> 01:23:23.488 align:middle line:90% was Energy and Computation. 01:23:23.488 --> 01:23:25.530 align:middle line:84% There were some great research projects presented 01:23:25.530 --> 01:23:29.410 align:middle line:84% which were part of towards solving the energy problems. 01:23:29.410 --> 01:23:32.140 align:middle line:84% And one comment was made by Professor Gershenfeld 01:23:32.140 --> 01:23:34.870 align:middle line:84% that all these projects which we saw yesterday 01:23:34.870 --> 01:23:36.387 align:middle line:90% were funded by fumes. 01:23:36.387 --> 01:23:37.720 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: So what does that-- 01:23:37.720 --> 01:23:39.040 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Were funded by fumes. 01:23:39.040 --> 01:23:39.832 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Fumes. 01:23:39.832 --> 01:23:43.150 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because none of them really fit into a discipline. 01:23:43.150 --> 01:23:45.940 align:middle line:84% And we had the Undersecretary of Energy 01:23:45.940 --> 01:23:48.700 align:middle line:84% who was also present, who suggested 01:23:48.700 --> 01:23:51.250 align:middle line:84% that part of the problem is because you 01:23:51.250 --> 01:23:55.270 align:middle line:84% don't have your own set of these different projects. 01:23:55.270 --> 01:23:57.370 align:middle line:84% They don't have their own forte and don't 01:23:57.370 --> 01:23:58.810 align:middle line:90% have their own language. 01:23:58.810 --> 01:24:01.420 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Right. 01:24:01.420 --> 01:24:04.570 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I was wondering, can the discipline 01:24:04.570 --> 01:24:07.660 align:middle line:84% of forming new disciplines be itself a discipline? 01:24:07.660 --> 01:24:09.310 align:middle line:84% Or would it be too narrowing it down? 01:24:09.310 --> 01:24:10.300 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:24:10.300 --> 01:24:12.820 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Actually, I'm going to use 01:24:12.820 --> 01:24:17.270 align:middle line:84% a word that applies to me and does not apply to you. 01:24:17.270 --> 01:24:18.400 align:middle line:90% And that is entangled. 01:24:18.400 --> 01:24:19.900 align:middle line:84% I got entangled with that question. 01:24:19.900 --> 01:24:24.310 align:middle line:84% I started talking about meta learner disciplines. 01:24:24.310 --> 01:24:30.280 align:middle line:90% And I had just thought that-- 01:24:30.280 --> 01:24:33.580 align:middle line:84% to think about a meta learner discipline 01:24:33.580 --> 01:24:37.780 align:middle line:84% is something inevitable that we've got to do. 01:24:37.780 --> 01:24:39.940 align:middle line:84% And I just hope that question didn't come up today 01:24:39.940 --> 01:24:42.020 align:middle line:90% because I haven't done it. 01:24:42.020 --> 01:24:45.620 align:middle line:84% But yeah, I have thought about it, mega-- a meta learner 01:24:45.620 --> 01:24:46.333 align:middle line:90% discipline. 01:24:46.333 --> 01:24:48.100 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And a more specific question 01:24:48.100 --> 01:24:52.480 align:middle line:84% is, how can policy, since you mentioned [? TPP, ?] how 01:24:52.480 --> 01:24:58.870 align:middle line:84% would it make policy so that it allows funding opportunities 01:24:58.870 --> 01:25:02.440 align:middle line:84% as people try to develop their own forte and language when 01:25:02.440 --> 01:25:04.330 align:middle line:90% none exist in the past? 01:25:04.330 --> 01:25:08.020 align:middle line:84% Because currently, most of the funding mechanism 01:25:08.020 --> 01:25:11.772 align:middle line:84% is based on specific disciplines per se. 01:25:11.772 --> 01:25:12.480 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 01:25:12.480 --> 01:25:15.270 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And they don't really fund interdisciplinary work. 01:25:15.270 --> 01:25:16.687 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Well, they claim they 01:25:16.687 --> 01:25:19.080 align:middle line:84% fund interdisciplinary work, many of them. 01:25:19.080 --> 01:25:21.630 align:middle line:84% But I do agree with you that it's still 01:25:21.630 --> 01:25:24.060 align:middle line:84% either cross-disciplinary or multidisciplinary. 01:25:24.060 --> 01:25:27.640 align:middle line:84% They're really not talking about interdisciplinary work. 01:25:27.640 --> 01:25:32.970 align:middle line:90% And I think that the-- 01:25:32.970 --> 01:25:36.558 align:middle line:90% I call them the-- 01:25:36.558 --> 01:25:37.560 align:middle line:90% what do I call them? 01:25:37.560 --> 01:25:39.488 align:middle line:90% There's a word I can use. 01:25:39.488 --> 01:25:47.720 align:middle line:84% Well, the established learner disciplines, deservedly, 01:25:47.720 --> 01:25:51.410 align:middle line:84% have a strong hold on the academy 01:25:51.410 --> 01:25:53.930 align:middle line:84% and most of our intellectual thought. 01:25:53.930 --> 01:25:56.030 align:middle line:84% And that any pretense of coming up 01:25:56.030 --> 01:26:01.550 align:middle line:84% with something totally different has to have a battle to fight. 01:26:01.550 --> 01:26:03.860 align:middle line:84% And frankly, I don't resist that idea 01:26:03.860 --> 01:26:07.040 align:middle line:84% because we need to fight for what we believe in. 01:26:07.040 --> 01:26:08.780 align:middle line:84% Let's give the scientists credit. 01:26:08.780 --> 01:26:15.830 align:middle line:84% A lot of them were persecuted in the inquisitions. 01:26:15.830 --> 01:26:18.680 align:middle line:84% They put their lives on the line for what they believed in. 01:26:18.680 --> 01:26:20.810 align:middle line:84% And over hundreds of years, they are still 01:26:20.810 --> 01:26:23.480 align:middle line:90% being attacked by religion. 01:26:23.480 --> 01:26:25.885 align:middle line:84% But nevertheless, they fought for what they believed in. 01:26:25.885 --> 01:26:27.260 align:middle line:84% I think it's time engineers began 01:26:27.260 --> 01:26:30.430 align:middle line:90% to fight for what we believe in. 01:26:30.430 --> 01:26:30.930 align:middle line:90% Yes? 01:26:30.930 --> 01:26:33.800 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I'm not an engineer. 01:26:33.800 --> 01:26:36.182 align:middle line:84% But I'm a social scientist in an engineering world. 01:26:36.182 --> 01:26:36.890 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 01:26:36.890 --> 01:26:38.303 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: So I frequently-- 01:26:38.303 --> 01:26:39.470 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 3: Could you-- 01:26:39.470 --> 01:26:39.890 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: I'm sorry. 01:26:39.890 --> 01:26:40.655 align:middle line:90% I'm not an engineer. 01:26:40.655 --> 01:26:41.270 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 3: Thank you. 01:26:41.270 --> 01:26:43.520 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And I'm a social scientist in an engineering 01:26:43.520 --> 01:26:44.700 align:middle line:90% world. 01:26:44.700 --> 01:26:49.265 align:middle line:84% So I frequently run into this interdisciplinary situation. 01:26:49.265 --> 01:26:50.240 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 01:26:50.240 --> 01:26:51.140 align:middle line:90% Yes. 01:26:51.140 --> 01:26:55.220 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And while I am trying to absorb everything 01:26:55.220 --> 01:27:00.230 align:middle line:84% I've heard today and not be critical or evaluative, but-- 01:27:00.230 --> 01:27:01.282 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Be? 01:27:01.282 --> 01:27:02.990 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Well, but that was part of what 01:27:02.990 --> 01:27:04.157 align:middle line:90% we were talking about today. 01:27:04.157 --> 01:27:10.150 align:middle line:84% And I in one real sense see the cultures of engineering, 01:27:10.150 --> 01:27:13.420 align:middle line:84% the cultures of social science, the cultures of mathematics. 01:27:13.420 --> 01:27:17.350 align:middle line:84% Each of these things has their own culture. 01:27:17.350 --> 01:27:21.480 align:middle line:84% And I don't want to denigrate anyone's culture. 01:27:21.480 --> 01:27:24.320 align:middle line:84% However, I would like to be able to tell a story that 01:27:24.320 --> 01:27:27.450 align:middle line:84% would allow the cultures, and this has to do, I think, 01:27:27.450 --> 01:27:30.080 align:middle line:84% with what you were just asking about, tell a story 01:27:30.080 --> 01:27:32.505 align:middle line:84% or follow a process that allows those cultures to come 01:27:32.505 --> 01:27:33.005 align:middle line:90% together. 01:27:33.005 --> 01:27:36.060 align:middle line:90% 01:27:36.060 --> 01:27:37.400 align:middle line:90% Do you have a clue? 01:27:37.400 --> 01:27:38.840 align:middle line:90% Or can you give me a hint? 01:27:38.840 --> 01:27:42.070 align:middle line:84% Or can you give me a process or help me with that? 01:27:42.070 --> 01:27:42.820 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 01:27:42.820 --> 01:27:45.470 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because often, this is something you see happening. 01:27:45.470 --> 01:27:49.189 align:middle line:84% I can see that they're missing each other. 01:27:49.189 --> 01:27:50.356 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 2: [INAUDIBLE] 01:27:50.356 --> 01:27:50.856 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:27:50.856 --> 01:27:51.850 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yes. 01:27:51.850 --> 01:27:56.110 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And I can see, but I can't tell them 01:27:56.110 --> 01:27:59.680 align:middle line:84% what I see, about the synergies that I 01:27:59.680 --> 01:28:01.662 align:middle line:90% can see them trying to make. 01:28:01.662 --> 01:28:03.020 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 01:28:03.020 --> 01:28:04.358 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: On that same point? 01:28:04.358 --> 01:28:09.340 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because I've been [INAUDIBLE] for many years. 01:28:09.340 --> 01:28:12.560 align:middle line:84% And I've seen the change where there is now a tendency 01:28:12.560 --> 01:28:15.030 align:middle line:84% to call on people from different disciplines 01:28:15.030 --> 01:28:31.907 align:middle line:84% and [INAUDIBLE] where we came from [INAUDIBLE] 01:28:31.907 --> 01:28:35.322 align:middle line:84% I find them to be counterproductive, 01:28:35.322 --> 01:28:38.880 align:middle line:84% because it's either you're opening it up 01:28:38.880 --> 01:28:41.400 align:middle line:84% and everybody's welcome, even if they can't get 01:28:41.400 --> 01:28:43.805 align:middle line:90% inspired by one similar draft. 01:28:43.805 --> 01:28:45.790 align:middle line:90% This is how it works. 01:28:45.790 --> 01:28:47.540 align:middle line:90% I'm a physicist. 01:28:47.540 --> 01:28:49.900 align:middle line:90% To me, it's a click somewhere. 01:28:49.900 --> 01:28:50.950 align:middle line:90% And then, it starts. 01:28:50.950 --> 01:28:51.970 align:middle line:90% I can't control it. 01:28:51.970 --> 01:28:56.440 align:middle line:90% I just go and then listen. 01:28:56.440 --> 01:29:00.820 align:middle line:84% So also, I think it has to change. 01:29:00.820 --> 01:29:04.750 align:middle line:84% When you say olden day value, it means everybody. 01:29:04.750 --> 01:29:06.284 align:middle line:84% Don't say, where did you come from? 01:29:06.284 --> 01:29:09.030 align:middle line:90% Come educate us. 01:29:09.030 --> 01:29:11.460 align:middle line:90% Just give people the way it was. 01:29:11.460 --> 01:29:14.570 align:middle line:84% Like you said, it will go from place to place. 01:29:14.570 --> 01:29:16.860 align:middle line:90% And listen to all the lectures. 01:29:16.860 --> 01:29:20.150 align:middle line:90% 01:29:20.150 --> 01:29:23.040 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Let me comment on both. 01:29:23.040 --> 01:29:23.540 align:middle line:90% I-- 01:29:23.540 --> 01:29:24.980 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: I have something quick to integrate into that. 01:29:24.980 --> 01:29:26.570 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah, go ahead, Al. 01:29:26.570 --> 01:29:32.390 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: Because I have a query which parallels yours 01:29:32.390 --> 01:29:36.370 align:middle line:84% or an observation, which is that we're 01:29:36.370 --> 01:29:39.450 align:middle line:84% talking about these different categories. 01:29:39.450 --> 01:29:47.340 align:middle line:84% I was concerned about the general categorization 01:29:47.340 --> 01:29:51.390 align:middle line:84% that you could propose and that you were also 01:29:51.390 --> 01:29:52.380 align:middle line:90% attempting to address. 01:29:52.380 --> 01:29:55.210 align:middle line:90% 01:29:55.210 --> 01:30:06.220 align:middle line:84% In my own personal history, I've gone through a few [INAUDIBLE] 01:30:06.220 --> 01:30:12.550 align:middle line:84% A major proponent was Piaget, who offered stage theories 01:30:12.550 --> 01:30:19.540 align:middle line:84% and never offered any way of getting from one stage 01:30:19.540 --> 01:30:21.220 align:middle line:90% to another. 01:30:21.220 --> 01:30:23.560 align:middle line:84% But I think the challenge is, and I 01:30:23.560 --> 01:30:25.720 align:middle line:84% think this is similar to what you're saying, is 01:30:25.720 --> 01:30:28.480 align:middle line:84% that when you speak of customary morality, 01:30:28.480 --> 01:30:32.260 align:middle line:84% for example, personal morality and rational, 01:30:32.260 --> 01:30:35.830 align:middle line:90% that this is the first state. 01:30:35.830 --> 01:30:41.668 align:middle line:84% But now, the major effort has to be to look at, 01:30:41.668 --> 01:30:43.130 align:middle line:90% what are the devices? 01:30:43.130 --> 01:30:48.710 align:middle line:84% What are the mechanisms for going from one to the other? 01:30:48.710 --> 01:30:51.910 align:middle line:84% And also for recognizing, as ultimately 01:30:51.910 --> 01:30:55.540 align:middle line:84% psychology did, that the stage theories were not 01:30:55.540 --> 01:30:56.770 align:middle line:90% really linear. 01:30:56.770 --> 01:30:59.020 align:middle line:84% But oftentimes, things were skipped. 01:30:59.020 --> 01:31:01.330 align:middle line:90% And there was reverberation. 01:31:01.330 --> 01:31:03.410 align:middle line:90% There was feedback. 01:31:03.410 --> 01:31:06.270 align:middle line:90% And it was important. 01:31:06.270 --> 01:31:08.430 align:middle line:84% So I think this is the challenge. 01:31:08.430 --> 01:31:11.640 align:middle line:84% Not the-- the first is to specify. 01:31:11.640 --> 01:31:17.380 align:middle line:84% And then after that, say, how do you get from [INAUDIBLE]?? 01:31:17.380 --> 01:31:19.640 align:middle line:90% What's the mechanism? 01:31:19.640 --> 01:31:20.390 align:middle line:90% So excuse me. 01:31:20.390 --> 01:31:20.890 align:middle line:90% I think-- 01:31:20.890 --> 01:31:21.557 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: No. 01:31:21.557 --> 01:31:23.300 align:middle line:84% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: Yeah, just a quick-- 01:31:23.300 --> 01:31:25.910 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Yeah. 01:31:25.910 --> 01:31:28.040 align:middle line:84% SEGUN GBADEGESIN: My categorization 01:31:28.040 --> 01:31:32.290 align:middle line:90% is not in stages. 01:31:32.290 --> 01:31:40.070 align:middle line:84% I don't categorize customary morality 01:31:40.070 --> 01:31:50.120 align:middle line:84% as an earlier stage of some progressive idea. 01:31:50.120 --> 01:31:55.250 align:middle line:84% No, in fact, all these categories of morality 01:31:55.250 --> 01:32:01.610 align:middle line:84% can come together in a particular culture 01:32:01.610 --> 01:32:04.470 align:middle line:90% at a particular time. 01:32:04.470 --> 01:32:10.280 align:middle line:84% The people who have conventional morality, one of them 01:32:10.280 --> 01:32:13.550 align:middle line:84% has his or her own personal morality. 01:32:13.550 --> 01:32:17.930 align:middle line:84% And presumably, that same person or another person 01:32:17.930 --> 01:32:22.490 align:middle line:84% thinks critically, steps outside the group 01:32:22.490 --> 01:32:29.330 align:middle line:84% to query their rationale behind the conventional morality. 01:32:29.330 --> 01:32:34.610 align:middle line:84% So it's not a stage-by-stage affair 01:32:34.610 --> 01:32:37.708 align:middle line:84% where you move from the lower state to the highest state. 01:32:37.708 --> 01:32:39.000 align:middle line:90% That's not what I have in mind. 01:32:39.000 --> 01:32:42.170 align:middle line:84% But at the same time, you can see 01:32:42.170 --> 01:32:47.630 align:middle line:84% the differences between the categories of morality. 01:32:47.630 --> 01:32:50.570 align:middle line:84% Conventional is customary to the group. 01:32:50.570 --> 01:32:55.100 align:middle line:84% It's what they have in common as maybe traditional. 01:32:55.100 --> 01:32:57.410 align:middle line:84% But of course, as I said earlier, only traditional. 01:32:57.410 --> 01:33:00.210 align:middle line:90% So it changes from time to time. 01:33:00.210 --> 01:33:03.440 align:middle line:84% That doesn't mean that the customary morality changes. 01:33:03.440 --> 01:33:06.320 align:middle line:84% That doesn't mean that the customary morality remains 01:33:06.320 --> 01:33:07.190 align:middle line:90% the same. 01:33:07.190 --> 01:33:09.050 align:middle line:90% It also changes with age. 01:33:09.050 --> 01:33:13.340 align:middle line:84% Whatever people have in common as part of their traditions 01:33:13.340 --> 01:33:15.710 align:middle line:84% will be considered as conventional, or positive, 01:33:15.710 --> 01:33:17.570 align:middle line:90% or customary morality. 01:33:17.570 --> 01:33:20.280 align:middle line:90% All right? 01:33:20.280 --> 01:33:23.410 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yeah, back to your initial question, 01:33:23.410 --> 01:33:29.550 align:middle line:84% which started this whole thing, which is what I'll address. 01:33:29.550 --> 01:33:33.570 align:middle line:84% And that is that I had thought I'd 01:33:33.570 --> 01:33:37.170 align:middle line:84% finished my engineering studies in 1972 when 01:33:37.170 --> 01:33:38.630 align:middle line:90% I got my doctorate. 01:33:38.630 --> 01:33:44.080 align:middle line:90% And I got my STS in 1985. 01:33:44.080 --> 01:33:53.030 align:middle line:84% And I've been very active in the professional society 01:33:53.030 --> 01:33:54.355 align:middle line:90% of business with STS. 01:33:54.355 --> 01:33:59.140 align:middle line:90% 01:33:59.140 --> 01:34:08.970 align:middle line:84% It took 12 years for me to publish a piece 01:34:08.970 --> 01:34:13.150 align:middle line:84% on this interaction that I'm talking about. 01:34:13.150 --> 01:34:20.190 align:middle line:84% And once it came out, it came out in a peculiar way. 01:34:20.190 --> 01:34:22.770 align:middle line:84% I wrote about this Concrete Sumo. 01:34:22.770 --> 01:34:27.300 align:middle line:84% And we had philosophers that made comments on it. 01:34:27.300 --> 01:34:29.197 align:middle line:84% And then, I made a reply to the commentaries. 01:34:29.197 --> 01:34:30.780 align:middle line:84% And there was another philosopher that 01:34:30.780 --> 01:34:32.040 align:middle line:90% introduced the whole thing. 01:34:32.040 --> 01:34:37.610 align:middle line:84% We published all of the papers in one journal together. 01:34:37.610 --> 01:34:41.000 align:middle line:84% And not all of the commentaries were gracious. 01:34:41.000 --> 01:34:43.880 align:middle line:84% But it made for a really good debate. 01:34:43.880 --> 01:34:49.590 align:middle line:84% The point that I'm making is that as long 01:34:49.590 --> 01:34:52.470 align:middle line:84% as we do not have a general education that 01:34:52.470 --> 01:34:56.245 align:middle line:84% gets all people to appreciate all of the disciplines, 01:34:56.245 --> 01:35:00.210 align:middle line:84% it is going to take a long time before you are going 01:35:00.210 --> 01:35:04.320 align:middle line:84% to be able to get people in one discipline and another 01:35:04.320 --> 01:35:07.740 align:middle line:84% to stop talking past each other, except maybe when it comes 01:35:07.740 --> 01:35:11.220 align:middle line:84% to a particular problem, maybe in the cross-disciplinary mode. 01:35:11.220 --> 01:35:13.770 align:middle line:84% To be able to do it in interdisciplinary, 01:35:13.770 --> 01:35:16.500 align:middle line:84% it's going to take some individuals to do it. 01:35:16.500 --> 01:35:19.680 align:middle line:84% But everybody else is going to talk past each other. 01:35:19.680 --> 01:35:22.110 align:middle line:90% Now that's my experience. 01:35:22.110 --> 01:35:27.330 align:middle line:84% My instincts tell me something as to the reason for it. 01:35:27.330 --> 01:35:30.990 align:middle line:84% On the surface, everybody talks about different specialties. 01:35:30.990 --> 01:35:32.850 align:middle line:90% I don't know social science. 01:35:32.850 --> 01:35:34.530 align:middle line:84% You say you don't know engineering. 01:35:34.530 --> 01:35:35.910 align:middle line:90% So we talk past each other. 01:35:35.910 --> 01:35:38.780 align:middle line:84% I don't think that's really the problem. 01:35:38.780 --> 01:35:40.430 align:middle line:90% I think it's the forte. 01:35:40.430 --> 01:35:44.360 align:middle line:84% I think once we graduate and get this feeling that we have 01:35:44.360 --> 01:35:48.830 align:middle line:84% a special claim on some higher order function of the mind, 01:35:48.830 --> 01:35:50.750 align:middle line:90% we can't listen to anybody else. 01:35:50.750 --> 01:35:52.880 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 01:35:52.880 --> 01:35:56.855 align:middle line:84% That's what I-- it's an arrogance. 01:35:56.855 --> 01:35:59.415 align:middle line:84% And I think that that's what prevents it. 01:35:59.415 --> 01:36:01.790 align:middle line:84% And I think it operates below the level of consciousness. 01:36:01.790 --> 01:36:04.070 align:middle line:84% I don't think we're mean-spirited people. 01:36:04.070 --> 01:36:07.220 align:middle line:84% But if I am sitting here trying-- 01:36:07.220 --> 01:36:15.180 align:middle line:84% and I'm figuring out the basic nature of atomic structures, 01:36:15.180 --> 01:36:17.240 align:middle line:84% and I've got this special claim on cognition, 01:36:17.240 --> 01:36:20.060 align:middle line:84% if you start talking to me about knowledge, 01:36:20.060 --> 01:36:22.370 align:middle line:84% I think I've got all that knowledge. 01:36:22.370 --> 01:36:24.650 align:middle line:84% We're going to talk past each other. 01:36:24.650 --> 01:36:26.900 align:middle line:84% Or if you start talking about, well, knowledge 01:36:26.900 --> 01:36:29.750 align:middle line:84% is not everything, there's something about values, 01:36:29.750 --> 01:36:31.970 align:middle line:84% we're going to talk about it past each other. 01:36:31.970 --> 01:36:33.470 align:middle line:84% When I'm sitting here talking about, 01:36:33.470 --> 01:36:35.220 align:middle line:84% well, it's not knowledge, it's not values, 01:36:35.220 --> 01:36:37.520 align:middle line:84% it is prosecuting that commitment pathway 01:36:37.520 --> 01:36:40.483 align:middle line:84% with the will, you don't start talking past each other. 01:36:40.483 --> 01:36:41.900 align:middle line:84% You're going to say that, I really 01:36:41.900 --> 01:36:45.770 align:middle line:84% don't have a claim on the higher functions of the mind. 01:36:45.770 --> 01:36:48.620 align:middle line:84% And I'm sitting here saying, I do. 01:36:48.620 --> 01:36:52.130 align:middle line:84% So I think that it's almost as though, 01:36:52.130 --> 01:36:54.830 align:middle line:84% with the exceptions of individuals, 01:36:54.830 --> 01:36:57.770 align:middle line:84% that we're just going to have to purge the system 01:36:57.770 --> 01:37:01.430 align:middle line:84% and try to get these problems solved at the fundamental level 01:37:01.430 --> 01:37:03.218 align:middle line:90% that the freshman dabble in? 01:37:03.218 --> 01:37:10.820 align:middle line:90% 01:37:10.820 --> 01:37:11.320 align:middle line:90% Yeah? 01:37:11.320 --> 01:37:12.402 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: One final point here. 01:37:12.402 --> 01:37:13.825 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: This will be the last one? 01:37:13.825 --> 01:37:14.200 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 2: Correct. 01:37:14.200 --> 01:37:14.830 align:middle line:84% AUDIENCE: And just actually, I wanted 01:37:14.830 --> 01:37:16.930 align:middle line:84% to follow up on the conversation [INAUDIBLE] 01:37:16.930 --> 01:37:20.800 align:middle line:84% was having earlier, which is if you're going to talk about, 01:37:20.800 --> 01:37:26.310 align:middle line:84% in a sense, a meta discipline, what 01:37:26.310 --> 01:37:30.510 align:middle line:84% do you see as the role of translators or interpreters 01:37:30.510 --> 01:37:32.250 align:middle line:90% in executing that discipline? 01:37:32.250 --> 01:37:36.630 align:middle line:84% TAFT BROOME: Yes, I have given that thought. 01:37:36.630 --> 01:37:38.683 align:middle line:84% Wherever my answer fails, it will not 01:37:38.683 --> 01:37:40.350 align:middle line:84% fail because I haven't given it thought. 01:37:40.350 --> 01:37:41.642 align:middle line:90% I've given it a lot of thought. 01:37:41.642 --> 01:37:44.730 align:middle line:84% And my response to it is culture, 01:37:44.730 --> 01:37:46.950 align:middle line:84% is I contrast specialist expertise 01:37:46.950 --> 01:37:49.080 align:middle line:90% with generalist expertise. 01:37:49.080 --> 01:37:50.610 align:middle line:84% There's got to be a language that 01:37:50.610 --> 01:37:52.590 align:middle line:90% transcends all of this stuff. 01:37:52.590 --> 01:37:55.230 align:middle line:84% It's not pedestrian, this stuff you get in the barbershop, 01:37:55.230 --> 01:37:56.400 align:middle line:90% necessarily. 01:37:56.400 --> 01:38:00.812 align:middle line:84% But it's what the lawyers call plain language, 01:38:00.812 --> 01:38:02.520 align:middle line:84% that you should be able to talk about all 01:38:02.520 --> 01:38:04.000 align:middle line:84% of these things in plain language. 01:38:04.000 --> 01:38:06.990 align:middle line:84% And one of the tools for doing it that, I think, 01:38:06.990 --> 01:38:09.570 align:middle line:90% is most effective is metaphor. 01:38:09.570 --> 01:38:12.200 align:middle line:84% I might not be able to understand what you do. 01:38:12.200 --> 01:38:13.950 align:middle line:84% But if you can give me a metaphor for what 01:38:13.950 --> 01:38:16.770 align:middle line:84% you do in the area that I understand, 01:38:16.770 --> 01:38:18.270 align:middle line:90% we can talk at that level. 01:38:18.270 --> 01:38:21.960 align:middle line:84% And we don't need to go deeper into specifics. 01:38:21.960 --> 01:38:24.401 align:middle line:84% So I call it generalist expertise. 01:38:24.401 --> 01:38:28.617 align:middle line:90% 01:38:28.617 --> 01:38:30.950 align:middle line:84% GUEST SPEAKER 1: Everyone, thank you so much for coming. 01:38:30.950 --> 01:38:32.367 align:middle line:84% Anyone who said anything, I think, 01:38:32.367 --> 01:38:33.628 align:middle line:90% needs to sign a release form. 01:38:33.628 --> 01:38:34.920 align:middle line:90% But other than that, thank you. 01:38:34.920 --> 01:38:35.420 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 01:38:35.420 --> 01:38:36.093 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 01:38:36.093 --> 01:38:37.829 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 01:38:37.829 --> 01:38:38.871 align:middle line:90% GUEST SPEAKER 1: Yeah? 01:38:38.871 --> 01:38:39.800 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Thank you. 01:38:39.800 --> 01:38:41.160 align:middle line:90% AUDIENCE: Thank you very much. 01:38:41.160 --> 01:38:42.732 align:middle line:90% TAFT BROOME: Oh, [INAUDIBLE]. 01:38:42.732 --> 01:38:45.576 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 01:38:45.576 --> 01:38:46.530 align:middle line:90% 01:38:46.530 --> 01:38:48.420 align:middle line:90% And this news. 01:38:48.420 --> 01:38:51.270 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 01:38:51.270 --> 01:38:52.695 align:middle line:90% 01:38:52.695 --> 01:38:56.450 align:middle line:90% [SIDE CONVERSATION] 01:38:56.450 --> 01:40:03.000 align:middle line:90%