WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.890 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC PLAYING] 00:00:01.890 --> 00:00:04.140 align:middle line:84% JIM WALSH: The only way the planet dies 00:00:04.140 --> 00:00:09.690 align:middle line:84% in 30 minutes or less today is if some man who 00:00:09.690 --> 00:00:12.000 align:middle line:84% has control of thousands of nuclear weapons 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:14.490 align:middle line:90% decides today is the day. 00:00:14.490 --> 00:00:17.580 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Today on Chalk Radio, the greatest threat 00:00:17.580 --> 00:00:20.220 align:middle line:84% to human existence and what people like 00:00:20.220 --> 00:00:22.620 align:middle line:90% you and me can do about it. 00:00:22.620 --> 00:00:24.767 align:middle line:84% JIM WALSH: I often hear people say 00:00:24.767 --> 00:00:26.850 align:middle line:84% they can't imagine that nuclear weapons would ever 00:00:26.850 --> 00:00:29.820 align:middle line:84% be used because it's a mutual suicide pact. 00:00:29.820 --> 00:00:32.090 align:middle line:84% Yeah, well, it's important to remember 00:00:32.090 --> 00:00:33.090 align:middle line:90% we used nuclear weapons. 00:00:33.090 --> 00:00:34.762 align:middle line:84% We've already used them twice, right? 00:00:34.762 --> 00:00:36.720 align:middle line:84% So this is not something that's never happened. 00:00:36.720 --> 00:00:39.480 align:middle line:84% It's something that's happened, which should indicate 00:00:39.480 --> 00:00:42.690 align:middle line:90% that it can happen again. 00:00:42.690 --> 00:00:44.040 align:middle line:90% SARAH HANSEN: I'm Sarah Hansen. 00:00:44.040 --> 00:00:46.530 align:middle line:84% And in this first episode of season 4, 00:00:46.530 --> 00:00:51.900 align:middle line:84% we're talking about course 8.S271 Nuclear Weapons: History 00:00:51.900 --> 00:00:56.100 align:middle line:84% and Future Prospects, as well as the MIT Nuclear Weapons 00:00:56.100 --> 00:00:59.640 align:middle line:84% Education Project, which is a collection of open materials 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:03.090 align:middle line:84% for lectures and discussions about what nuclear weapons are 00:01:03.090 --> 00:01:05.239 align:middle line:90% and their effects. 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:08.390 align:middle line:84% So why is MIT teaching about nuclear weapons? 00:01:08.390 --> 00:01:10.580 align:middle line:84% And why is it important that people like 00:01:10.580 --> 00:01:12.890 align:middle line:90% you and me know about them? 00:01:12.890 --> 00:01:15.350 align:middle line:84% To help explain all this, I sat down 00:01:15.350 --> 00:01:17.690 align:middle line:84% with two of the course instructors-- one 00:01:17.690 --> 00:01:21.523 align:middle line:84% a physicist and the other a policy expert. 00:01:21.523 --> 00:01:23.690 align:middle line:84% BOB REDWINE: There are still thousands and thousands 00:01:23.690 --> 00:01:26.540 align:middle line:84% of nuclear weapons deployed by the major powers. 00:01:26.540 --> 00:01:29.690 align:middle line:84% And the use of even a very small fraction of them 00:01:29.690 --> 00:01:33.230 align:middle line:84% would frankly end life as we know it on Earth. 00:01:33.230 --> 00:01:34.940 align:middle line:90% It would end life. 00:01:34.940 --> 00:01:39.050 align:middle line:84% But the idea was to try to bring this issue that we think 00:01:39.050 --> 00:01:42.980 align:middle line:84% is existential to the attention of young MIT 00:01:42.980 --> 00:01:46.880 align:middle line:84% students, both undergraduates and graduate students, 00:01:46.880 --> 00:01:51.500 align:middle line:84% to get them interested in it and working to continue 00:01:51.500 --> 00:01:55.250 align:middle line:84% the efforts that had been going on at MIT to try to get rid 00:01:55.250 --> 00:01:56.530 align:middle line:90% of nuclear weapons. 00:01:56.530 --> 00:01:59.170 align:middle line:90% That was our motivation. 00:01:59.170 --> 00:02:01.960 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: That's Bob Redwine, MIT emeritus professor 00:02:01.960 --> 00:02:05.320 align:middle line:84% of physics and contributor to the MIT Nuclear Weapons 00:02:05.320 --> 00:02:07.480 align:middle line:90% Education Project. 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:11.830 align:middle line:84% BOB REDWINE: In 1939, the first controlled nuclear action 00:02:11.830 --> 00:02:12.730 align:middle line:90% took place. 00:02:12.730 --> 00:02:16.300 align:middle line:84% And this was a real revelation, in many ways, 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:19.540 align:middle line:84% to scientists in Europe and the United States. 00:02:19.540 --> 00:02:22.900 align:middle line:84% There was a lot of worry among scientists. 00:02:22.900 --> 00:02:26.860 align:middle line:84% One fear that became very real to many scientists 00:02:26.860 --> 00:02:31.000 align:middle line:84% was that Hitler and the Nazis would get access 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:36.160 align:middle line:84% to this huge energy release that we now know as nuclear weapons 00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:39.610 align:middle line:84% before the Allies during the second world war. 00:02:39.610 --> 00:02:44.110 align:middle line:84% So there was a big push to have the Allies develop 00:02:44.110 --> 00:02:46.840 align:middle line:84% nuclear weapons in case the Nazis were 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:48.400 align:middle line:90% going to develop them first. 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:50.770 align:middle line:84% And that was what led to the Manhattan 00:02:50.770 --> 00:02:55.563 align:middle line:84% Project that eventually led to the two explosions in Japan. 00:02:55.563 --> 00:02:56.230 align:middle line:90% [AUDIO PLAYBACK] 00:02:56.230 --> 00:02:58.750 align:middle line:84% - Correspondents at air headquarters on Guam 00:02:58.750 --> 00:03:02.350 align:middle line:84% say there is reason to believe that the Japanese city 00:03:02.350 --> 00:03:05.440 align:middle line:84% of Hiroshima, approximately the size of Memphis, 00:03:05.440 --> 00:03:09.130 align:middle line:84% or Seattle, or Rochester, New York, no longer exists. 00:03:09.130 --> 00:03:09.940 align:middle line:90% [END PLAYBACK] 00:03:09.940 --> 00:03:13.930 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: On August 6, 1945, the United States 00:03:13.930 --> 00:03:18.460 align:middle line:84% dropped a nuclear bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima. 00:03:18.460 --> 00:03:21.790 align:middle line:84% Three days later, on August 9, a second bomb 00:03:21.790 --> 00:03:26.970 align:middle line:84% was dropped, this time on the city of Nagasaki. 00:03:26.970 --> 00:03:30.030 align:middle line:84% Hundreds of thousands of people were killed. 00:03:30.030 --> 00:03:32.670 align:middle line:90% It was total destruction. 00:03:32.670 --> 00:03:35.550 align:middle line:84% It's been nearly 80 years since these attacks, 00:03:35.550 --> 00:03:38.100 align:middle line:84% which remain the only use of nuclear weapons 00:03:38.100 --> 00:03:39.780 align:middle line:90% in armed conflict. 00:03:39.780 --> 00:03:43.020 align:middle line:84% Even so, following the bombing of Japan, 00:03:43.020 --> 00:03:45.540 align:middle line:84% many, many more nuclear arms were 00:03:45.540 --> 00:03:50.100 align:middle line:84% created by the United States and the Soviet Union. 00:03:50.100 --> 00:03:52.380 align:middle line:84% JIM WALSH: The planet fundamentally changed 00:03:52.380 --> 00:03:54.900 align:middle line:90% in the summer of 1945. 00:03:54.900 --> 00:03:57.540 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: That's Jim Walsh, senior research associate 00:03:57.540 --> 00:04:00.480 align:middle line:84% at the MIT Security Studies Program. 00:04:00.480 --> 00:04:02.940 align:middle line:84% JIM WALSH: We invented this awful technology. 00:04:02.940 --> 00:04:06.007 align:middle line:84% And then our chief adversary, the Soviet Union, 00:04:06.007 --> 00:04:07.590 align:middle line:84% who we thought was trying to take over 00:04:07.590 --> 00:04:09.780 align:middle line:90% the world, they got it, too. 00:04:09.780 --> 00:04:12.360 align:middle line:84% Our first impulse was to build, and build, and build, 00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:15.030 align:middle line:84% and build, both sides approaching something 00:04:15.030 --> 00:04:18.390 align:middle line:84% like 80,000 total nuclear weapons between the two sides. 00:04:18.390 --> 00:04:20.490 align:middle line:84% As Carl Sagan said, it was like two people 00:04:20.490 --> 00:04:22.680 align:middle line:84% sitting in a basement filled with gasoline. 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:24.540 align:middle line:90% One had 7,000 matches. 00:04:24.540 --> 00:04:25.560 align:middle line:90% One had 8,000. 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:28.590 align:middle line:84% They argued over who had more matches. 00:04:28.590 --> 00:04:31.950 align:middle line:84% What happened was, for the first time in human history, 00:04:31.950 --> 00:04:34.980 align:middle line:84% for the first time in planetary history, 00:04:34.980 --> 00:04:39.390 align:middle line:84% humans built a technology that could destroy everything 00:04:39.390 --> 00:04:40.140 align:middle line:90% on Earth. 00:04:40.140 --> 00:04:41.520 align:middle line:84% There are many challenges that we 00:04:41.520 --> 00:04:44.430 align:middle line:84% face that could pose an extinction threat-- 00:04:44.430 --> 00:04:46.290 align:middle line:84% climate change and other things-- 00:04:46.290 --> 00:04:48.210 align:middle line:90% that will play out over time. 00:04:48.210 --> 00:04:52.530 align:middle line:84% But the only way the planet dies in 30 minutes or less 00:04:52.530 --> 00:04:57.180 align:middle line:84% today is if some man who has control 00:04:57.180 --> 00:05:00.045 align:middle line:84% of thousands of nuclear weapons decides today is the day. 00:05:00.045 --> 00:05:05.937 align:middle line:90% 00:05:05.937 --> 00:05:07.770 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Jim explained some of the ways 00:05:07.770 --> 00:05:10.290 align:middle line:84% that the course goes beyond the basic physical science 00:05:10.290 --> 00:05:12.000 align:middle line:90% of nuclear weapons. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:14.010 align:middle line:84% He highlighted the cultural, political, 00:05:14.010 --> 00:05:16.650 align:middle line:84% and psychological implications of their existence 00:05:16.650 --> 00:05:18.810 align:middle line:84% and how, for a long time, the fact 00:05:18.810 --> 00:05:21.060 align:middle line:84% that countries like the US and the Soviet Union 00:05:21.060 --> 00:05:24.690 align:middle line:84% were stockpiling nuclear weapons was of great concern to people 00:05:24.690 --> 00:05:26.160 align:middle line:90% all over the globe. 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.500 align:middle line:84% Both Jim and Bob remember the days 00:05:28.500 --> 00:05:31.380 align:middle line:84% when nuclear Armageddon was one of the most common fears 00:05:31.380 --> 00:05:33.120 align:middle line:90% of the general public. 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:35.460 align:middle line:84% BOB REDWINE: I can remember, in grade school, 00:05:35.460 --> 00:05:38.490 align:middle line:84% we used to have regular air raid drills, 00:05:38.490 --> 00:05:40.320 align:middle line:84% where suddenly the alarm would go off. 00:05:40.320 --> 00:05:42.600 align:middle line:84% And you would be told to rush out 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:45.090 align:middle line:84% into the corridor between classrooms 00:05:45.090 --> 00:05:47.820 align:middle line:84% and put your head between your knees up against the wall 00:05:47.820 --> 00:05:50.160 align:middle line:90% until you were told to stop. 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:53.550 align:middle line:84% And it's not obvious how much good 00:05:53.550 --> 00:05:55.710 align:middle line:84% that would do during a nuclear explosion. 00:05:55.710 --> 00:05:58.170 align:middle line:84% But that was what the country was 00:05:58.170 --> 00:06:01.723 align:middle line:84% accustomed to doing during the Second World War. 00:06:01.723 --> 00:06:03.390 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: And this tension of living 00:06:03.390 --> 00:06:07.440 align:middle line:84% in fear of nuclear weapons came to a peak in the 1960s 00:06:07.440 --> 00:06:11.040 align:middle line:84% during the Cuban missile crisis, when the US government warned 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:15.300 align:middle line:84% of a potential nuclear attack by the Soviet Union from Cuba. 00:06:15.300 --> 00:06:18.000 align:middle line:84% BOB REDWINE: I happened to be in high school 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:22.260 align:middle line:84% a few miles away from Washington DC in northern Virginia. 00:06:22.260 --> 00:06:25.260 align:middle line:84% There was a time, like on the order of a week or two, 00:06:25.260 --> 00:06:28.860 align:middle line:84% when we weren't sure exactly what was going to happen. 00:06:28.860 --> 00:06:31.770 align:middle line:84% Washington DC was clearly a possible target 00:06:31.770 --> 00:06:33.570 align:middle line:90% for such nuclear weapons. 00:06:33.570 --> 00:06:35.910 align:middle line:90% It was frankly terrifying. 00:06:35.910 --> 00:06:39.420 align:middle line:84% We thought today might be the last day of our lives. 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:41.950 align:middle line:90% 00:06:41.950 --> 00:06:44.440 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: Jim explained that this fear, the thought 00:06:44.440 --> 00:06:46.930 align:middle line:84% of nuclear attacks and global extinction, 00:06:46.930 --> 00:06:49.570 align:middle line:90% eventually led to action. 00:06:49.570 --> 00:06:51.910 align:middle line:84% JIM WALSH: At least two periods in global history, 00:06:51.910 --> 00:06:55.810 align:middle line:84% in the late 1950s and again in the mid 1980s, citizens 00:06:55.810 --> 00:06:58.990 align:middle line:84% and governments were sufficiently scared 00:06:58.990 --> 00:07:00.100 align:middle line:90% that they made changes. 00:07:00.100 --> 00:07:03.160 align:middle line:84% They actually destroyed the nuclear weapons they built. 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.310 align:middle line:84% They put themselves on a path where things were safer 00:07:06.310 --> 00:07:08.350 align:middle line:90% rather than more dangerous. 00:07:08.350 --> 00:07:11.050 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: But this progress, while meaningful, 00:07:11.050 --> 00:07:12.515 align:middle line:90% was short-lived. 00:07:12.515 --> 00:07:14.140 align:middle line:84% JIM WALSH: Then the end of the Cold War 00:07:14.140 --> 00:07:16.840 align:middle line:84% came and we sort of all forgot about it. 00:07:16.840 --> 00:07:18.730 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: But as Bob went on to explain, 00:07:18.730 --> 00:07:20.500 align:middle line:90% the threat hasn't disappeared. 00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:24.280 align:middle line:90% If anything, it's increased. 00:07:24.280 --> 00:07:26.290 align:middle line:84% BOB REDWINE: There are currently many thousands 00:07:26.290 --> 00:07:28.720 align:middle line:90% of nuclear weapons deployed. 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:31.780 align:middle line:84% As I think many of you know, the power 00:07:31.780 --> 00:07:35.230 align:middle line:84% of typical deployed nuclear weapons now on average 00:07:35.230 --> 00:07:39.190 align:middle line:84% is much greater than it was in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 00:07:39.190 --> 00:07:42.520 align:middle line:84% If you had one of these powerful nuclear weapons 00:07:42.520 --> 00:07:45.370 align:middle line:84% exploding, let's say, at a city, there 00:07:45.370 --> 00:07:48.370 align:middle line:84% would be enormous physical destruction. 00:07:48.370 --> 00:07:50.515 align:middle line:84% It was enormous in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 00:07:50.515 --> 00:07:54.880 align:middle line:84% It would be even more and many, many hundreds 00:07:54.880 --> 00:07:56.590 align:middle line:90% of thousands of people killed. 00:07:56.590 --> 00:08:00.700 align:middle line:84% There would also be a huge radiation problem 00:08:00.700 --> 00:08:04.270 align:middle line:84% that would spread much beyond the initial destruction 00:08:04.270 --> 00:08:06.700 align:middle line:84% site that would kill, in a reasonably 00:08:06.700 --> 00:08:11.290 align:middle line:84% short time, many more people from the radiation. 00:08:11.290 --> 00:08:16.330 align:middle line:84% And in addition, there would be a serious long-term radiation 00:08:16.330 --> 00:08:19.870 align:middle line:84% and climate change issue spreading around the Earth 00:08:19.870 --> 00:08:23.650 align:middle line:84% from this explosion over the months and years following 00:08:23.650 --> 00:08:24.730 align:middle line:90% that explosion. 00:08:24.730 --> 00:08:27.520 align:middle line:84% That's if there were just one explosion. 00:08:27.520 --> 00:08:34.299 align:middle line:84% If we had 20 to 50 explosions of this sort anywhere on Earth, 00:08:34.299 --> 00:08:38.230 align:middle line:84% it would basically end life as we know it on Earth. 00:08:38.230 --> 00:08:40.240 align:middle line:84% And we've got thousands of weapons 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:41.890 align:middle line:90% deployed and ready to go. 00:08:41.890 --> 00:08:45.570 align:middle line:90% 00:08:45.570 --> 00:08:47.782 align:middle line:84% JIM WALSH: I often hear people say, 00:08:47.782 --> 00:08:49.740 align:middle line:84% I can't imagine that nuclear weapons would ever 00:08:49.740 --> 00:08:52.650 align:middle line:84% be used because it's a mutual suicide pact. 00:08:52.650 --> 00:08:54.990 align:middle line:84% Yeah, well, it's important to remember 00:08:54.990 --> 00:08:55.980 align:middle line:90% we use nuclear weapons. 00:08:55.980 --> 00:08:58.260 align:middle line:90% We've already used them twice. 00:08:58.260 --> 00:09:00.420 align:middle line:84% As a political scientist who studies deterrence 00:09:00.420 --> 00:09:03.120 align:middle line:84% and the possible deployment of nuclear weapons, 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:06.270 align:middle line:84% let me remind listeners it's been US policy 00:09:06.270 --> 00:09:10.560 align:middle line:84% to use nuclear weapons first in a normal, conventional conflict 00:09:10.560 --> 00:09:12.900 align:middle line:84% throughout the decades of the Cold War. 00:09:12.900 --> 00:09:16.410 align:middle line:84% Just as we fret today that Russia might introduce nuclear 00:09:16.410 --> 00:09:19.590 align:middle line:84% weapons because they're losing a conventional war-- 00:09:19.590 --> 00:09:23.010 align:middle line:84% a war of tanks, and artillery, and that sort of thing-- 00:09:23.010 --> 00:09:24.480 align:middle line:90% that was the US doctrine. 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:26.790 align:middle line:84% So all during the Cold War, the US doctrine 00:09:26.790 --> 00:09:31.290 align:middle line:84% was the Soviets had more tanks and stuff than we 00:09:31.290 --> 00:09:33.000 align:middle line:90% did along the European front. 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:35.520 align:middle line:84% We didn't have enough men and arms 00:09:35.520 --> 00:09:37.500 align:middle line:90% to repel a massive invasion. 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:40.830 align:middle line:84% So if they invaded us with their tanks and guns 00:09:40.830 --> 00:09:43.740 align:middle line:84% and we started to lose, we'd use nuclear weapons. 00:09:43.740 --> 00:09:45.313 align:middle line:90% That is our policy. 00:09:45.313 --> 00:09:46.980 align:middle line:84% The current policy of the United States, 00:09:46.980 --> 00:09:49.560 align:middle line:84% its current nuclear doctrine is counterforce. 00:09:49.560 --> 00:09:51.540 align:middle line:84% It's not mutually assured destruction. 00:09:51.540 --> 00:09:54.000 align:middle line:84% It's that we're going to hit you first and try 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:56.100 align:middle line:84% to take out all your nuclear weapons 00:09:56.100 --> 00:09:58.230 align:middle line:90% so that you don't hit us-- 00:09:58.230 --> 00:10:03.450 align:middle line:84% an incredibly dangerous and destabilizing policy. 00:10:03.450 --> 00:10:06.210 align:middle line:84% It's not I'll hit you back if you hit me. 00:10:06.210 --> 00:10:08.550 align:middle line:84% It's I'm coming after you because I 00:10:08.550 --> 00:10:09.960 align:middle line:90% think I can get you first. 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:12.930 align:middle line:84% So imagine how the adversary feels in that. 00:10:12.930 --> 00:10:15.270 align:middle line:84% These are just simple human beings, like you and me. 00:10:15.270 --> 00:10:18.600 align:middle line:84% It's not like the human race has matured and is suddenly wiser 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.460 align:middle line:84% just because we happened to invent something 00:10:20.460 --> 00:10:21.840 align:middle line:90% that could kill everything. 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:25.260 align:middle line:84% No, we basically shoved that technology 00:10:25.260 --> 00:10:27.750 align:middle line:84% into our normal way of thinking about things. 00:10:27.750 --> 00:10:30.150 align:middle line:84% We built tons and tons of nuclear weapons. 00:10:30.150 --> 00:10:31.200 align:middle line:90% They did the same. 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:32.670 align:middle line:90% We had lots of tests. 00:10:32.670 --> 00:10:36.810 align:middle line:84% They did the same because it was considered a normal instrument 00:10:36.810 --> 00:10:39.210 align:middle line:84% in a fight between two adversaries 00:10:39.210 --> 00:10:42.330 align:middle line:84% with the occasional second thought-- oh my god, 00:10:42.330 --> 00:10:47.190 align:middle line:84% are we on the verge of killing everything? 00:10:47.190 --> 00:10:49.290 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: While all of this is terrifying, 00:10:49.290 --> 00:10:52.440 align:middle line:84% it's also why the MIT Nuclear Weapons Education 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:56.550 align:middle line:84% Project and the course 8.S271 were created 00:10:56.550 --> 00:10:59.340 align:middle line:84% and why they're shared on MIT OpenCourseWare. 00:10:59.340 --> 00:11:02.520 align:middle line:84% The more we understand nuclear weapons and their effects, 00:11:02.520 --> 00:11:04.440 align:middle line:84% the better equipped we'll be to advocate 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:06.550 align:middle line:90% for their dismantlement. 00:11:06.550 --> 00:11:09.400 align:middle line:84% Much of the course is built around class discussion. 00:11:09.400 --> 00:11:11.260 align:middle line:84% The instructors focus on developing 00:11:11.260 --> 00:11:13.330 align:middle line:84% students' understanding of the technology 00:11:13.330 --> 00:11:15.640 align:middle line:84% and the political context in which decisions 00:11:15.640 --> 00:11:18.297 align:middle line:84% about the technology are being made. 00:11:18.297 --> 00:11:20.380 align:middle line:84% JIM WALSH: Nuclear weapons is a topic that invites 00:11:20.380 --> 00:11:22.600 align:middle line:90% an interdisciplinary approach. 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:25.840 align:middle line:84% When we try to understand the choices that humans have made 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.030 align:middle line:84% about nuclear weapons, we need to understand 00:11:28.030 --> 00:11:29.960 align:middle line:84% what are their political interests, what's 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:31.960 align:middle line:84% the nature of the international competition they 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:33.370 align:middle line:90% find themselves in. 00:11:33.370 --> 00:11:35.410 align:middle line:90% What about bureaucratic battles? 00:11:35.410 --> 00:11:37.480 align:middle line:84% I think morally it's a pretty easy decision. 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:41.170 align:middle line:84% I don't think anyone ever has or will have the right 00:11:41.170 --> 00:11:42.490 align:middle line:90% to extinguish life on Earth. 00:11:42.490 --> 00:11:44.110 align:middle line:90% I don't think any human has it. 00:11:44.110 --> 00:11:47.470 align:middle line:84% But as a policy matter, I can imagine there are debates. 00:11:47.470 --> 00:11:50.500 align:middle line:84% And so for example, if Russia uses 00:11:50.500 --> 00:11:53.860 align:middle line:84% nuclear weapons in Ukraine, should the US 00:11:53.860 --> 00:11:55.482 align:middle line:90% respond with nuclear weapons? 00:11:55.482 --> 00:11:57.190 align:middle line:84% And I would say the majority of the class 00:11:57.190 --> 00:11:59.565 align:middle line:84% said, no, we shouldn't use nuclear weapons because Russia 00:11:59.565 --> 00:12:00.065 align:middle line:90% does. 00:12:00.065 --> 00:12:01.720 align:middle line:84% And I'd be inclined to agree with that. 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:03.928 align:middle line:90% But let's be honest. 00:12:03.928 --> 00:12:04.720 align:middle line:90% Let's say we don't. 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:07.750 align:middle line:84% Does that encourage Russia to use them a second time? 00:12:07.750 --> 00:12:09.820 align:middle line:84% Does it send a message to other countries 00:12:09.820 --> 00:12:12.460 align:middle line:84% that they can use nuclear weapons with impunity? 00:12:12.460 --> 00:12:16.480 align:middle line:84% Very few of these choices in the nuclear domain 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:18.490 align:middle line:84% are without tradeoffs and challenges. 00:12:18.490 --> 00:12:20.080 align:middle line:84% And so we have to be honest about that 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.180 align:middle line:84% as we teach the course and let students 00:12:22.180 --> 00:12:26.260 align:middle line:84% put their chips on what they think is the best path forward. 00:12:26.260 --> 00:12:29.020 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: And herein lies maybe the most important aspect 00:12:29.020 --> 00:12:32.860 align:middle line:84% of the course, showing students and really all of us 00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:36.850 align:middle line:84% that we do have a say in our future with nuclear weapons. 00:12:36.850 --> 00:12:39.160 align:middle line:84% BOB REDWINE: I think we collectively 00:12:39.160 --> 00:12:42.010 align:middle line:84% as humans have no choice but to try 00:12:42.010 --> 00:12:43.660 align:middle line:84% to get rid of all nuclear weapons 00:12:43.660 --> 00:12:46.540 align:middle line:84% because as we discussed, they do pose 00:12:46.540 --> 00:12:48.370 align:middle line:90% such an existential threat. 00:12:48.370 --> 00:12:51.850 align:middle line:84% It's not easy, given the current situation. 00:12:51.850 --> 00:12:53.800 align:middle line:84% I think we have to do the best we 00:12:53.800 --> 00:12:59.290 align:middle line:84% can to educate people who are not experts about the dangers 00:12:59.290 --> 00:13:04.300 align:middle line:84% and to encourage them to vote and to influence their leaders 00:13:04.300 --> 00:13:06.600 align:middle line:90% in the right direction. 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:08.220 align:middle line:84% JIM WALSH: Anyone under the age of 50 00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:13.350 align:middle line:84% has not lived a minute, not 60 seconds in a world 00:13:13.350 --> 00:13:16.920 align:middle line:84% where all around them the most important issue of the day 00:13:16.920 --> 00:13:17.850 align:middle line:90% was nuclear weapons. 00:13:17.850 --> 00:13:19.200 align:middle line:90% You've never experienced that. 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.968 align:middle line:84% For decades, we've been told it's the government's job, as 00:13:21.968 --> 00:13:23.760 align:middle line:84% if the governments that own nuclear weapons 00:13:23.760 --> 00:13:26.820 align:middle line:84% are going to get rid of their own unless they're pushed. 00:13:26.820 --> 00:13:29.010 align:middle line:90% Not likely! 00:13:29.010 --> 00:13:31.830 align:middle line:84% But when you say that for decade after decade 00:13:31.830 --> 00:13:34.590 align:middle line:84% and the memory fades, then you find yourself in the position 00:13:34.590 --> 00:13:35.370 align:middle line:90% we are today. 00:13:35.370 --> 00:13:37.170 align:middle line:84% Everyone thinks it's a terrible problem. 00:13:37.170 --> 00:13:39.003 align:middle line:84% No one thinks they can do anything about it. 00:13:39.003 --> 00:13:42.000 align:middle line:84% And that is a problem in their heads. 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.130 align:middle line:84% The only thing that prevents us from doing it 00:13:44.130 --> 00:13:46.620 align:middle line:90% is the decision we make. 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:49.302 align:middle line:84% And so if we make a different decision, 00:13:49.302 --> 00:13:50.760 align:middle line:84% then we'll get a different outcome. 00:13:50.760 --> 00:13:51.802 align:middle line:90% But that's the challenge. 00:13:51.802 --> 00:13:54.600 align:middle line:84% It's the-- it's the psychological challenge that's 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:56.523 align:middle line:84% the toughest when it comes to nuclear weapons. 00:13:56.523 --> 00:13:59.190 align:middle line:84% And that's why it's important to remember that we've had success 00:13:59.190 --> 00:14:00.482 align:middle line:90% and we can be successful again. 00:14:00.482 --> 00:14:04.713 align:middle line:90% 00:14:04.713 --> 00:14:06.630 align:middle line:84% SARAH HANSEN: If you're interested in teaching 00:14:06.630 --> 00:14:09.840 align:middle line:84% or learning with materials from the MIT Nuclear Weapons 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:15.150 align:middle line:84% Education Project or from the course 8.S271 Nuclear Weapons: 00:14:15.150 --> 00:14:18.240 align:middle line:84% History and Future Prospects, please visit our website 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:21.540 align:middle line:90% at ocw.mit.edu. 00:14:21.540 --> 00:14:23.700 align:middle line:84% You'll find all the materials there. 00:14:23.700 --> 00:14:28.290 align:middle line:84% And as always, they're free and licensed for adaptation. 00:14:28.290 --> 00:14:30.390 align:middle line:84% You can help others find the materials too 00:14:30.390 --> 00:14:32.670 align:middle line:84% by subscribing to the podcast and leaving us 00:14:32.670 --> 00:14:34.260 align:middle line:90% a rating and review. 00:14:34.260 --> 00:14:37.020 align:middle line:84% If you enjoyed this episode, you might also 00:14:37.020 --> 00:14:40.500 align:middle line:84% want to check out our episode from season 1 of Chalk Radio, 00:14:40.500 --> 00:14:43.980 align:middle line:84% "Nuclear Gets Personal with Professor Michael Short." 00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:46.230 align:middle line:84% Near the end of the episode, Professor Short 00:14:46.230 --> 00:14:48.030 align:middle line:84% answers nuclear science questions 00:14:48.030 --> 00:14:50.640 align:middle line:90% posed by OpenCourseWare users. 00:14:50.640 --> 00:14:54.330 align:middle line:84% Until next time, signing off from Cambridge, Massachusetts, 00:14:54.330 --> 00:14:59.310 align:middle line:84% I'm your host, Sarah Hansen, from MIT OpenCourseWare. 00:14:59.310 --> 00:15:02.940 align:middle line:84% MIT Chalk Radio's producers include myself, Brett Paci, 00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:04.575 align:middle line:90% and Dave Lishanksy. 00:15:04.575 --> 00:15:07.680 align:middle line:84% Show notes for the episode were written by Peter Chipman. 00:15:07.680 --> 00:15:12.510 align:middle line:84% The 8.S271 Nuclear Weapons: History and Future Prospects 00:15:12.510 --> 00:15:15.330 align:middle line:84% and the MIT Nuclear Weapons Education Project 00:15:15.330 --> 00:15:18.600 align:middle line:84% online publications were shared on MIT OpenCourseWare 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:20.340 align:middle line:90% by Eliz DeRienzo. 00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:23.275 align:middle line:84% We're funded by MIT Open Learning and supporters 00:15:23.275 --> 00:15:23.775 align:middle line:90% like you. 00:15:23.775 --> 00:15:26.420 align:middle line:90% 00:15:26.420 --> 00:15:29.450 align:middle line:84% OpenCourseWare will always be free and open 00:15:29.450 --> 00:15:32.300 align:middle line:84% for you to learn anytime, anywhere. 00:15:32.300 --> 00:15:35.780 align:middle line:84% Millions of people learn with OCW 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