WEBVTT 00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:04.000 The following content is provided under a Creative 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:05.540 Commons license. 00:00:05.540 --> 00:00:07.840 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:07.840 --> 00:00:12.230 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 00:00:12.230 --> 00:00:14.830 To make a donation or view additional materials 00:00:14.830 --> 00:00:18.790 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:18.790 --> 00:00:19.790 at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:22.880 --> 00:00:25.437 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: The more we can measure volume, 00:00:25.437 --> 00:00:28.510 the more we'll be able to follow the recent law we got passed 00:00:28.510 --> 00:00:30.840 that says they have to prioritize the highest 00:00:30.840 --> 00:00:33.807 volume for climate hazard. 00:00:33.807 --> 00:00:34.640 So that's a new law. 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:38.185 They never got to do it, so now they need the information, 00:00:38.185 --> 00:00:41.623 and they've never gotten [INAUDIBLE] 00:00:41.623 --> 00:00:42.790 cared about explosion risk. 00:00:42.790 --> 00:00:47.110 The president of Eversource Gas in the meeting recently, he 00:00:47.110 --> 00:00:48.877 was very talkative, and he started 00:00:48.877 --> 00:00:50.460 talking about how there's new research 00:00:50.460 --> 00:00:53.762 and development in natural gas restructure in the US period. 00:00:53.762 --> 00:00:54.470 They don't do it. 00:00:54.470 --> 00:00:57.080 No one else does it-- that they go to France, England, 00:00:57.080 --> 00:01:01.194 and Germany, because they invest in R&D for this field, 00:01:01.194 --> 00:01:02.610 and they find out what's going on. 00:01:02.610 --> 00:01:03.776 And they're way ahead of us. 00:01:03.776 --> 00:01:07.670 They're way ahead of us over there, 00:01:07.670 --> 00:01:11.220 which was really interesting to me to hear. 00:01:11.220 --> 00:01:14.665 And they, in that room, there was 00:01:14.665 --> 00:01:16.940 no doubt they have no idea what the problem is. 00:01:16.940 --> 00:01:18.220 They don't measure it. 00:01:18.220 --> 00:01:20.390 They don't document it. 00:01:20.390 --> 00:01:22.660 And from what we can tell so far, 00:01:22.660 --> 00:01:26.030 there's no acceptable norm on how to measure it. 00:01:26.030 --> 00:01:31.510 So there is these two really kind of kludgy methods to me, 00:01:31.510 --> 00:01:32.705 and then there's-- 00:01:32.705 --> 00:01:34.900 I mean, we're trying to invent a method that's 00:01:34.900 --> 00:01:36.650 actually the utilities can go out and do. 00:01:36.650 --> 00:01:39.796 Because the guys on the ground have to do it. 00:01:39.796 --> 00:01:41.670 DAVID OLIVER: You know what's kind of funny-- 00:01:41.670 --> 00:01:42.503 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Yeah? 00:01:42.503 --> 00:01:44.440 DAVID OLIVER: --is that you can find it 00:01:44.440 --> 00:01:48.540 when it's, you know, sort of naturally occurring and worth 00:01:48.540 --> 00:01:51.278 something to us, but we can't find it when it's 00:01:51.278 --> 00:01:52.740 going through our own system. 00:01:52.740 --> 00:01:54.797 It's sad. 00:01:54.797 --> 00:01:56.380 And it's three feet below the surface. 00:01:56.380 --> 00:01:58.046 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Piece of data on volume-- 00:01:58.046 --> 00:02:00.030 did you tell them about the Harvard study? 00:02:00.030 --> 00:02:01.690 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah, I did earlier. 00:02:01.690 --> 00:02:05.070 So we know how much there is from the top down from the, 00:02:05.070 --> 00:02:05.570 you know-- 00:02:05.570 --> 00:02:07.850 in the atmosphere, we know how much gas there is, 00:02:07.850 --> 00:02:11.072 but we don't know where the most-- you know, that 5%-- 00:02:11.072 --> 00:02:14.380 5% to 7% of the worst gas leaks are. 00:02:14.380 --> 00:02:19.000 So this is-- we have to come up with a method to-- 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:20.695 when they're about to repair the leak-- 00:02:20.695 --> 00:02:23.070 after they've pinpointed what they think is a high-volume 00:02:23.070 --> 00:02:26.029 leak, how do we-- 00:02:26.029 --> 00:02:28.870 SPEAKER 1: Verify that that's a [INAUDIBLE] 00:02:28.870 --> 00:02:36.250 SPEAKER 2: Do we have on that global thing, gas in, gas out? 00:02:36.250 --> 00:02:37.486 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:02:37.486 --> 00:02:39.407 Over time, by-- 00:02:39.407 --> 00:02:41.240 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: It doesn't match the outside. 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:42.906 SPEAKER 2: Well, of course it shouldn't. 00:02:42.906 --> 00:02:45.680 Leakage is def-- but how is that changing all the time? 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:47.980 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So the utilities have crappy data. 00:02:47.980 --> 00:02:48.980 They have crappy meters. 00:02:48.980 --> 00:02:50.180 They have crappy everything. 00:02:50.180 --> 00:02:56.320 So they have no-- so your meter at your house is not a very 00:02:56.320 --> 00:02:58.100 good, you know, temperature changes-- 00:02:58.100 --> 00:02:59.080 SPEAKER 2: It's right, plus or minus 00:02:59.080 --> 00:02:59.926 x, where x is too big a number. 00:02:59.926 --> 00:03:02.140 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah, the margin of error is huge. 00:03:02.140 --> 00:03:04.260 What this is-- just to give the idea 00:03:04.260 --> 00:03:05.760 that we've come up with after months 00:03:05.760 --> 00:03:09.115 of working with the utilities and ripping information out 00:03:09.115 --> 00:03:13.420 of them is to use these two instruments when 00:03:13.420 --> 00:03:16.210 they-- so they pinpointed-- so this is that point 00:03:16.210 --> 00:03:18.460 that they pinpointed the high volume-- what they think 00:03:18.460 --> 00:03:19.960 is a high-volume leak. 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:24.340 And in order to do that, they drill holes in the streets. 00:03:24.340 --> 00:03:28.240 So they found using this instrument and another one-- 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:31.200 they found that there's gas in the area. 00:03:31.200 --> 00:03:35.170 And they stuck this, with a probe on it, into the soil, 00:03:35.170 --> 00:03:38.850 and they found sort of the leak extent, the area in the ground 00:03:38.850 --> 00:03:41.860 that has a lot of gas in it. 00:03:41.860 --> 00:03:44.590 And then they drill holes in the streets. 00:03:44.590 --> 00:03:47.170 So maybe, let's say, it goes from 21 Smith street 00:03:47.170 --> 00:03:49.300 to 25 Smith street, and then they 00:03:49.300 --> 00:03:53.356 drill holes in the street along there and use this again. 00:03:53.356 --> 00:03:54.980 They put the probe in each of the holes 00:03:54.980 --> 00:03:57.000 in the street over the pipe. 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:58.000 Should I draw a picture? 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:00.865 Does this-- 00:04:00.865 --> 00:04:03.490 SPEAKER 3: They don't drill into the pipe-- just over the pipe. 00:04:03.490 --> 00:04:04.781 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Over the pipe. 00:04:04.781 --> 00:04:07.090 And they stick this probe in and find out where 00:04:07.090 --> 00:04:09.818 the highest percent of gas is. 00:04:09.818 --> 00:04:14.260 DAVID OLIVER: So they're working with a map of the pipes, right? 00:04:14.260 --> 00:04:17.850 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: They usually have a printed out, like, sketchy 00:04:17.850 --> 00:04:20.539 little map with a line, and it's approximate. 00:04:20.539 --> 00:04:21.990 I've watched them do it. 00:04:21.990 --> 00:04:23.220 It's close. 00:04:23.220 --> 00:04:25.210 They kind of know where their pipe is. 00:04:25.210 --> 00:04:27.310 AUDREY SCHULMAN: They drill holes in the street. 00:04:27.310 --> 00:04:30.360 They take this thing-- and stick the probe in those holes 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.460 and find out where the highest gas is-- the highest 00:04:33.460 --> 00:04:35.240 percentage of gas is. 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:40.430 And so, then they excavate at that point, 00:04:40.430 --> 00:04:43.584 because they assume the leak was right there. 00:04:43.584 --> 00:04:45.500 SPEAKER 3: And they admitted how often they're 00:04:45.500 --> 00:04:46.877 right when they do that? 00:04:46.877 --> 00:04:48.960 AUDREY SCHULMAN: They do not share any information 00:04:48.960 --> 00:04:49.930 at all of any kind. 00:04:49.930 --> 00:04:51.704 SPEAKER 3: All right, the latest theory-- 00:04:51.704 --> 00:04:54.120 AUDREY SCHULMAN: They believe this method works very well, 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:56.664 but anybody who's looked at streets, 00:04:56.664 --> 00:04:58.330 you'll see lots of, like patches, right, 00:04:58.330 --> 00:05:00.890 when at any time, they-- so sometimes they screw up. 00:05:00.890 --> 00:05:01.570 How often? 00:05:01.570 --> 00:05:02.360 We don't know. 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:04.334 SPEAKER 2: Go look at the [INAUDIBLE] wells. 00:05:04.334 --> 00:05:05.238 Just go look at it. 00:05:05.238 --> 00:05:08.504 They just repainted it, and it's already-- 00:05:08.504 --> 00:05:10.170 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So if they're confused. 00:05:10.170 --> 00:05:13.110 If say, this is 100%, this is 100%, 00:05:13.110 --> 00:05:15.110 this is 100%, they don't where the leak is, 00:05:15.110 --> 00:05:17.770 what they do is they use this. 00:05:17.770 --> 00:05:24.960 They stick that in down into the hole that they've-- 00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:27.180 one of these holes. 00:05:27.180 --> 00:05:31.800 They put a compressor in this side, 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.010 and they open this valve-- 00:05:34.010 --> 00:05:35.680 so, already, I guess it is open-- 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:39.450 so that 80 pounds per square inch of air 00:05:39.450 --> 00:05:42.490 is being blown across here. 00:05:42.490 --> 00:05:46.390 This is a hollow tube, so it sucks air up really quickly. 00:05:46.390 --> 00:05:48.900 And this plunger gets pushed down, 00:05:48.900 --> 00:05:51.134 so that it's sealed to the street. 00:05:51.134 --> 00:05:52.050 Does that makes sense? 00:05:52.050 --> 00:05:53.367 SPEAKER 3: Mhm. 00:05:53.367 --> 00:05:55.200 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So air is being pulled out, 00:05:55.200 --> 00:05:56.760 you know, really quickly. 00:05:56.760 --> 00:06:00.540 It's a vacuum-- drags all the gas out of the ground, 00:06:00.540 --> 00:06:02.985 and that way, they vacuum all the gas out 00:06:02.985 --> 00:06:05.490 from this entire area. 00:06:05.490 --> 00:06:09.430 And then they use the CGI again to this thing 00:06:09.430 --> 00:06:12.810 to see where the gas is coming back up fastest, 00:06:12.810 --> 00:06:15.315 and that's where they excavate to fix the leak. 00:06:15.315 --> 00:06:16.190 Does that make sense? 00:06:16.190 --> 00:06:17.470 SPEAKER 3: Yes, I get it. 00:06:17.470 --> 00:06:18.900 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So we want to use 00:06:18.900 --> 00:06:24.180 this tool in a different way to find how big the leak is. 00:06:24.180 --> 00:06:26.070 So instead, once they pin the leak-- 00:06:26.070 --> 00:06:30.120 once they found the leak, we want to take this and put it 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:31.140 in the ground. 00:06:31.140 --> 00:06:35.670 Again, attach a regulate-- a compressor here, 00:06:35.670 --> 00:06:42.780 blow the air out, and put a combustible gas indicator here 00:06:42.780 --> 00:06:46.740 to see what the percentage is of gas coming out of it. 00:06:46.740 --> 00:06:50.360 By doing that, we will know how much the flow-through, right-- 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.580 because it's 80 pounds per square inch coming out of here, 00:06:53.580 --> 00:06:56.180 and we'll know the percentage of gas. 00:06:56.180 --> 00:07:00.060 And using that, we can get a rough idea of how much, 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:02.840 how big the leak is, how much gas is coming out 00:07:02.840 --> 00:07:04.170 and how quickly. 00:07:04.170 --> 00:07:07.034 Does that make sense? 00:07:07.034 --> 00:07:07.950 SPEAKER 4: [INAUDIBLE] 00:07:07.950 --> 00:07:08.695 AUDREY SCHULMAN: This is a purger. 00:07:08.695 --> 00:07:10.260 We only learned about it on Friday. 00:07:10.260 --> 00:07:12.681 I am so excited to have it here. 00:07:12.681 --> 00:07:14.142 SPEAKER 5: It's called a diffuser. 00:07:14.142 --> 00:07:15.225 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Diffuser. 00:07:18.187 --> 00:07:20.020 DAVID OLIVER: The message that you described 00:07:20.020 --> 00:07:24.120 sounds like it will tell you roughly 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:28.416 how much gas was trapped in the area that you were evacuating, 00:07:28.416 --> 00:07:32.810 which might not be adjacent to the leak-- it could travel 00:07:32.810 --> 00:07:33.950 and then get trapped. 00:07:33.950 --> 00:07:35.340 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So you have to wait for a steady state 00:07:35.340 --> 00:07:35.849 reading. 00:07:35.849 --> 00:07:36.640 DAVID OLIVER: True. 00:07:36.640 --> 00:07:39.960 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So the gas will pocket up 00:07:39.960 --> 00:07:44.230 underneath the pavement, because gas is lighter than air. 00:07:44.230 --> 00:07:46.170 And so, you will get a sort of pool of gas 00:07:46.170 --> 00:07:49.830 right up against the pavement, and for the first few minutes, 00:07:49.830 --> 00:07:51.920 you're going to pull out that residual-- 00:07:51.920 --> 00:08:00.740 SPEAKER 2: So don't you also [INAUDIBLE] nature of that 00:08:00.740 --> 00:08:02.550 substance-- 00:08:02.550 --> 00:08:04.777 sand, clay, dirt. 00:08:04.777 --> 00:08:05.860 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Aha, yes. 00:08:05.860 --> 00:08:09.297 Whether it's wet, whether it's dry, and yes, 00:08:09.297 --> 00:08:10.130 the temperature is-- 00:08:10.130 --> 00:08:13.504 SPEAKER 2: --what the nature is of that diffusing material. 00:08:13.504 --> 00:08:17.124 AUDREY SCHULMAN: To get an exact measurement, yes, we would. 00:08:17.124 --> 00:08:19.900 But the high-volume leaks are 10 times bigger-- 00:08:19.900 --> 00:08:23.237 more bigger than that the low-volume leaks, so got to-- 00:08:23.237 --> 00:08:24.820 SPEAKER 2: So that shouldn't matter -- 00:08:24.820 --> 00:08:26.986 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So you've got an order of magnitude 00:08:26.986 --> 00:08:29.490 difference, so all that stuff hopefully will be-- 00:08:29.490 --> 00:08:31.700 I mean, we'll have to find out. 00:08:31.700 --> 00:08:33.760 But I think this method will work enough 00:08:33.760 --> 00:08:36.020 to get us in the ball field, so that we can say, 00:08:36.020 --> 00:08:38.248 high volume, not high volume, higher-- 00:08:38.248 --> 00:08:40.039 you know, we just want to bucket the leaks, 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:42.130 basically, categorize them. 00:08:42.130 --> 00:08:44.100 DAVID OLIVER: I got a question. 00:08:44.100 --> 00:08:45.960 So they're fixing-- they're trying 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:52.080 to fix what will be categorized as high-volume, right? 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:55.211 They're not trying to fix everything that they find, 00:08:55.211 --> 00:08:55.710 right? 00:08:55.710 --> 00:08:57.251 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Right, this law that 00:08:57.251 --> 00:09:00.459 got passed is simply to fix the high-volume leaks. 00:09:00.459 --> 00:09:01.250 DAVID OLIVER: Yeah. 00:09:05.020 --> 00:09:09.950 But, you know, when they go and they do their testing, 00:09:09.950 --> 00:09:12.750 and they get a series of readings, 00:09:12.750 --> 00:09:15.210 they basically guess where they think 00:09:15.210 --> 00:09:17.120 the high volume is, fix that joint, 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:19.443 and then they forget about what's 12 feet that way 00:09:19.443 --> 00:09:20.892 and 12 feet that way. 00:09:23.435 --> 00:09:24.310 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yes. 00:09:24.310 --> 00:09:25.930 You mean there could be another leak? 00:09:25.930 --> 00:09:26.570 Is that what you're-- 00:09:26.570 --> 00:09:27.611 DAVID OLIVER: Well, sure. 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.780 I mean, in the case of they picked the wrong one, 00:09:32.780 --> 00:09:34.636 and there's still a high-volume leak there-- 00:09:34.636 --> 00:09:37.170 and it's that that doesn't get found until maybe they 00:09:37.170 --> 00:09:39.929 come back to the same spot. 00:09:39.929 --> 00:09:40.970 SPEAKER 2: Well, back up. 00:09:40.970 --> 00:09:42.400 How do they determine? 00:09:42.400 --> 00:09:45.980 Is there another step once they picked the highest volume 00:09:45.980 --> 00:09:48.240 and dug to the ground? 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:50.010 I've watched them-- a physical test 00:09:50.010 --> 00:09:56.980 of identifying a real leak-- you know, pipe, gas spewing out 00:09:56.980 --> 00:09:59.580 at the actual leak once it's uncovered. 00:09:59.580 --> 00:10:03.580 Is that a standard process, or do they-- 00:10:03.580 --> 00:10:07.100 to your own point, there may only be one leak. 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:09.148 There's a physical identification of the leak 00:10:09.148 --> 00:10:11.096 once they've decided to take action. 00:10:11.096 --> 00:10:11.970 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yes. 00:10:11.970 --> 00:10:12.840 But we can-- 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:14.050 SPEAKER 2: There could be five or six of them. 00:10:14.050 --> 00:10:15.660 AUDREY SCHULMAN: We have to assume they somewhat 00:10:15.660 --> 00:10:16.868 know their job, so they can-- 00:10:16.868 --> 00:10:19.120 they'll find the leak, and they'll fix it. 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:22.010 And afterwards-- and a lot of these 00:10:22.010 --> 00:10:26.950 might be weak complexes, which means many leaks 00:10:26.950 --> 00:10:31.390 along the way in which case the whole area, that 21 to 25 00:10:31.390 --> 00:10:34.010 Smith street is a leak complex, and they 00:10:34.010 --> 00:10:35.540 have to fix all those leaks. 00:10:35.540 --> 00:10:39.330 So they should use this method to measure the emissions off 00:10:39.330 --> 00:10:43.930 of each one of those sub-leaks and then add them up 00:10:43.930 --> 00:10:47.420 into one high-volume leak. 00:10:47.420 --> 00:10:48.980 So the utilities use the word leak 00:10:48.980 --> 00:10:50.920 in a very different way than we do, 00:10:50.920 --> 00:10:54.340 which is like leak location. 00:10:54.340 --> 00:10:57.400 So then we will be adding up all the emissions, which 00:10:57.400 --> 00:11:01.720 means that this method should not suck the gas out 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:05.050 of more than one leak. 00:11:05.050 --> 00:11:07.760 Or if it does, we will have to figure out how to-- 00:11:07.760 --> 00:11:09.820 DAVID OLIVER: Yeah, I think it might. 00:11:09.820 --> 00:11:12.500 I would imagine that if you have gas pooling, 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:14.800 or you have multiple leaks, there's 00:11:14.800 --> 00:11:16.744 going to be some connection between them? 00:11:16.744 --> 00:11:17.660 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah. 00:11:17.660 --> 00:11:19.368 DAVID OLIVER: So if you create a volume-- 00:11:19.368 --> 00:11:22.134 a vacuum here, it's going to start pulling from the other. 00:11:22.134 --> 00:11:23.050 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah. 00:11:23.050 --> 00:11:25.150 So one of the things we possibly can do 00:11:25.150 --> 00:11:28.000 is there's going to be somewhere it's just going to be one leak, 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:29.950 and using that data, we can figure out 00:11:29.950 --> 00:11:31.940 what the average leak is. 00:11:31.940 --> 00:11:36.760 And therefore, when we have a leak location, a leak complex, 00:11:36.760 --> 00:11:38.890 we can hopefully figure out how much 00:11:38.890 --> 00:11:41.180 overage there is-- how much excess gas 00:11:41.180 --> 00:11:42.790 we're pulling in from the others. 00:11:42.790 --> 00:11:44.380 Yeah, so the things I think we need-- 00:11:44.380 --> 00:11:46.790 I think we need two things. 00:11:46.790 --> 00:11:50.090 One is some sort of regulator to step this down, 00:11:50.090 --> 00:11:53.195 so the compressor coming in at 80 PSI in. 00:11:53.195 --> 00:11:55.570 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Well, the other thing is this says 80 PSI, 00:11:55.570 --> 00:11:57.872 but the guys in the truck say their compressor is 120. 00:11:57.872 --> 00:11:59.110 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah. 00:11:59.110 --> 00:11:59.880 So some sort of-- 00:11:59.880 --> 00:12:01.960 DAVID OLIVER: [INAUDIBLE] crank it up all the way up though. 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:04.001 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: And so, how do we make sure what-- 00:12:04.001 --> 00:12:05.650 because if we don't know pressure. 00:12:05.650 --> 00:12:08.390 AUDREY SCHULMAN: If we don't have the known rate of speed 00:12:08.390 --> 00:12:10.900 across here, the data's crap. 00:12:10.900 --> 00:12:16.300 And we also don't want to vacuum up higher than the operating 00:12:16.300 --> 00:12:17.940 pressure of the pipe. 00:12:17.940 --> 00:12:18.483 So the pipe-- 00:12:18.483 --> 00:12:18.811 DAVID OLIVER: Because then you'll 00:12:18.811 --> 00:12:20.120 just draw it out of the pipe? 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:20.330 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Right. 00:12:20.330 --> 00:12:21.788 And it will be increasing the leak, 00:12:21.788 --> 00:12:24.400 and it will be crappy data again. 00:12:24.400 --> 00:12:25.300 Does that make sense? 00:12:25.300 --> 00:12:26.133 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Yeah. 00:12:26.133 --> 00:12:27.610 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So these pipes can 00:12:27.610 --> 00:12:32.800 be anywhere from 0.5, that we're going to be working with, 00:12:32.800 --> 00:12:37.490 to 60 PSI, so 120 times-- 00:12:37.490 --> 00:12:39.556 so that's a difficult problem on its own. 00:12:39.556 --> 00:12:40.930 So we need some sort of regulator 00:12:40.930 --> 00:12:42.460 that will not increase-- you know, 00:12:42.460 --> 00:12:46.280 that probably is going to at 0.5 PSI, 00:12:46.280 --> 00:12:49.060 so we have to step this down enormously. 00:12:49.060 --> 00:12:52.390 So that's one problem, and I don't know if that's true. 00:12:52.390 --> 00:12:55.200 So I am not a scientist, so anybody who wants to-- 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:56.784 DAVID OLIVER: Yeah, I mean, putting 00:12:56.784 --> 00:12:58.200 80 PSI on that doesn't mean you're 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:00.350 going to create an 80 PSI-- 00:13:00.350 --> 00:13:04.830 a negative 80 PSI vacuum, but there 00:13:04.830 --> 00:13:06.087 is a correlation [INAUDIBLE] 00:13:06.087 --> 00:13:08.170 AUDREY SCHULMAN: OK, so what's the regulator here? 00:13:08.170 --> 00:13:09.870 How far do we have to step it down? 00:13:09.870 --> 00:13:11.620 What regulator, I need the doohickey 00:13:11.620 --> 00:13:16.029 that goes here to be able to step it down in a correct-- 00:13:16.029 --> 00:13:17.570 you know, in a way that it will not-- 00:13:17.570 --> 00:13:19.236 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: We need to control this-- 00:13:19.236 --> 00:13:21.580 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah, and preferably just one setting, 00:13:21.580 --> 00:13:24.280 because these guys are going to be like, you just turn it on. 00:13:24.280 --> 00:13:25.330 Just do it. 00:13:25.330 --> 00:13:27.149 You know, I got to go for lunch. 00:13:27.149 --> 00:13:28.690 DAVID OLIVER: Without modifying this? 00:13:28.690 --> 00:13:29.860 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yes, without modifying it. 00:13:29.860 --> 00:13:31.443 So it's going to be another doohickey. 00:13:31.443 --> 00:13:34.660 They're going to take this off, put the other doohickey in, 00:13:34.660 --> 00:13:35.940 and crank it on. 00:13:35.940 --> 00:13:38.320 DAVID OLIVER: Because if they're-- yeah, if they're-- 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:44.890 if you measure PSI here, then you're 00:13:44.890 --> 00:13:49.564 getting sort of a direct reading of the vacuum 00:13:49.564 --> 00:13:50.730 that you're creating, right? 00:13:50.730 --> 00:13:51.330 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah. 00:13:51.330 --> 00:13:52.540 So there is this valve, but we don't 00:13:52.540 --> 00:13:53.790 know if this valve is working. 00:13:53.790 --> 00:13:54.780 DAVID OLIVER: Yeah. 00:13:54.780 --> 00:13:58.970 But, I mean, if you take the 80 PSI that you're putting in, 00:13:58.970 --> 00:14:05.020 you can calculate what that vacuum should be, so, you know, 00:14:05.020 --> 00:14:10.120 that could be simply a lookup chart or something 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:11.120 like that for them. 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:12.360 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah, we got have it-- 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:14.818 you know, the whole thing is to make it so simple they just 00:14:14.818 --> 00:14:17.370 write down one number in the end-- error-proof, 00:14:17.370 --> 00:14:18.890 and you got to imagine. 00:14:18.890 --> 00:14:20.770 You've seen the contractors out there, right? 00:14:20.770 --> 00:14:22.430 This is not of their interest. 00:14:22.430 --> 00:14:24.180 They are doing this unwillingly, so we 00:14:24.180 --> 00:14:26.740 have to come up with a super, super simple method that 00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:27.949 can just bucket the leaks. 00:14:27.949 --> 00:14:29.365 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: So there seem to be 00:14:29.365 --> 00:14:32.290 two techniques in the literature for volume measurement of gas. 00:14:32.290 --> 00:14:36.580 One is the chamber method, which is a closed sample and measured 00:14:36.580 --> 00:14:39.290 over time to get flow rate, and the other one 00:14:39.290 --> 00:14:43.212 is the flow rate, which is the rate of air movement-- 00:14:43.212 --> 00:14:44.670 you know the speed of air movement, 00:14:44.670 --> 00:14:46.970 and then you take one point sample. 00:14:46.970 --> 00:14:49.060 So the idea of this, we're actually 00:14:49.060 --> 00:14:51.611 going to be doing the chamber method 00:14:51.611 --> 00:14:54.700 on the leaks in the street. 00:14:54.700 --> 00:14:56.860 It's error proof. 00:14:56.860 --> 00:14:59.921 And the idea of this is to try to get the flow-rate method 00:14:59.921 --> 00:15:05.110 measurement, so maybe we will also take some capsules that-- 00:15:05.110 --> 00:15:07.110 AUDREY SCHULMAN: They're not going to go for it. 00:15:07.110 --> 00:15:08.693 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: They're very concerned. 00:15:08.693 --> 00:15:10.350 They're very risk-averse. 00:15:10.350 --> 00:15:14.232 They're very concerned about any capturing of gas. 00:15:14.232 --> 00:15:15.940 AUDREY SCHULMAN: I meant I can't tell you 00:15:15.940 --> 00:15:19.390 how unusual it is that they are willing to do this. 00:15:19.390 --> 00:15:22.762 This alone is a stunning step forward. 00:15:22.762 --> 00:15:24.970 DAVID OLIVER: Are these guys employees of the utility 00:15:24.970 --> 00:15:26.819 companies or subcontractors? 00:15:26.819 --> 00:15:28.110 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Probably both. 00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:28.960 DAVID OLIVER: OK. 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.570 Is there a possibility of kind of developing somebody-- 00:15:31.570 --> 00:15:35.530 I mean, developing a core of trained professionals who 00:15:35.530 --> 00:15:37.989 would then contract with the utility companies who do this? 00:15:37.989 --> 00:15:40.405 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So we're going to do a training basically 00:15:40.405 --> 00:15:42.810 with the utilities to teach them how to do the technique, 00:15:42.810 --> 00:15:45.979 but first we need to come up with the exact technique. 00:15:45.979 --> 00:15:48.270 And that's like in three weeks, so we're on a deadline. 00:15:48.270 --> 00:15:49.670 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: And we're trying to figure out a way 00:15:49.670 --> 00:15:51.086 to incentivize it for the guys. 00:15:51.086 --> 00:15:53.085 We've been talking to them, and actually they're 00:15:53.085 --> 00:15:54.555 not all the same age. 00:15:54.555 --> 00:15:55.430 There's a wide array. 00:15:55.430 --> 00:15:59.028 Some of them are actually pretty interested, so to be fair. 00:16:08.395 --> 00:16:11.353 It seems like we have three different ideas so far. 00:16:11.353 --> 00:16:14.311 Does that make sense? 00:16:14.311 --> 00:16:21.043 We have the one we just said at sensor-- 00:16:21.043 --> 00:16:24.424 what are we calling this part of the doohickey? 00:16:24.424 --> 00:16:25.390 Inlet. 00:16:25.390 --> 00:16:26.839 DAVID OLIVER: Inlet-- 00:16:26.839 --> 00:16:30.703 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: --into inlet two. 00:16:30.703 --> 00:16:41.010 Two is no sensor used pressure to pressure, and 3 is attach-- 00:16:43.660 --> 00:16:45.565 SPEAKER 2: Sensor-dependent output. 00:16:45.565 --> 00:16:48.690 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: --sensor to output. 00:16:48.690 --> 00:16:53.967 OK, so each of these definitely have pros and cons. 00:16:53.967 --> 00:16:55.954 That's where we're at, right? 00:16:55.954 --> 00:16:56.620 SPEAKER 2: Yeah. 00:16:56.620 --> 00:16:58.450 DAVID OLIVER: Number two is also doing 00:16:58.450 --> 00:17:00.290 the sort of baseline measurements, correct? 00:17:00.290 --> 00:17:01.665 SPEAKER 2: Yeah, that's the pros, 00:17:01.665 --> 00:17:03.850 and we don't know if two works. 00:17:03.850 --> 00:17:07.369 I would argue that if two works, that 00:17:07.369 --> 00:17:10.940 meets your operational issues better than anything else, 00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:11.680 because you-- 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:13.055 all you're asking them is to read 00:17:13.055 --> 00:17:17.880 this meter That's the change in process, basically. 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:20.099 DAVID OLIVER: The good thing about one 00:17:20.099 --> 00:17:25.450 is that they see something that may alarm them, as opposed to-- 00:17:25.450 --> 00:17:28.720 well, actually, if they do enough for the calculations, 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:30.790 and they may see the pressure reading, and say, 00:17:30.790 --> 00:17:32.001 oh, something's wrong. 00:17:32.001 --> 00:17:34.250 But if they see something new that says, ooh, problem. 00:17:34.250 --> 00:17:35.870 SPEAKER 2: Yeah, no, I'm with you, but-- 00:17:35.870 --> 00:17:36.720 DAVID OLIVER: The red light goes on. 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.094 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Should we go through a new pros and cons? 00:17:39.094 --> 00:17:40.510 SPEAKER 2: It might be worthwhile. 00:17:40.510 --> 00:17:41.440 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Or is this the kind of thing 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:43.565 where maybe we should just test all of the options. 00:17:43.565 --> 00:17:44.550 Like, work them out. 00:17:44.550 --> 00:17:47.130 Break into a group and work out what 00:17:47.130 --> 00:17:48.460 we would need to do to test it. 00:17:48.460 --> 00:17:49.960 DAVID OLIVER: Or, you know, you said 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:55.285 the pressure variation in the pipes is 0.5 PSI to-- 00:17:55.285 --> 00:17:56.410 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: To 60 PSI. 00:17:56.410 --> 00:17:57.954 DAVID OLIVER: --to 60, jeese. 00:17:57.954 --> 00:17:59.620 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: And that's just the pipes 00:17:59.620 --> 00:18:00.880 that we need them working on. 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:03.270 DAVID OLIVER: Don't be standard or OK. 00:18:03.270 --> 00:18:06.160 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: So that's one of the reasons why 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:09.320 this is a hard problem. 00:18:09.320 --> 00:18:11.220 That's why I want to step this down, 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:13.150 so that we don't ever, like, pull 00:18:13.150 --> 00:18:15.722 the gas out of the pipe faster than the leak would normally 00:18:15.722 --> 00:18:16.722 be. 00:18:16.722 --> 00:18:18.680 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So should we break into groups 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:21.250 to look at these three possible methods 00:18:21.250 --> 00:18:23.680 and sort of come up with some of the questions, 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:25.770 the experiments that need to happen, 00:18:25.770 --> 00:18:28.206 the products associated? 00:18:28.206 --> 00:18:29.580 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: A next-steps list? 00:18:29.580 --> 00:18:30.496 AUDREY SCHULMAN: Yeah. 00:18:36.717 --> 00:18:38.800 DAVID OLIVER: First of all, they can control that. 00:18:38.800 --> 00:18:40.760 They can control the input pressure, 00:18:40.760 --> 00:18:42.900 so they can control the pressure drawn, 00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:46.000 and there is ton of resistance in the soil. 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.192 So in order to do that, you would have to really crank up 00:18:49.192 --> 00:18:49.900 the pressurized-- 00:18:49.900 --> 00:18:50.150 SPEAKER 2: I don't know. 00:18:50.150 --> 00:18:50.430 I'm just-- 00:18:50.430 --> 00:18:51.490 DAVID OLIVER: I don't-- you know-- 00:18:51.490 --> 00:18:52.910 SPEAKER 2: I don't know if I'm even in the right ballpark. 00:18:52.910 --> 00:18:55.090 DAVID OLIVER: I think there is so much resistance in the soil. 00:18:55.090 --> 00:18:56.550 SPEAKER 2: If there's enough resistance, it's not a crack, 00:18:56.550 --> 00:18:57.480 and then I don't care. 00:18:57.480 --> 00:18:58.939 But if it is, if it's close-- 00:18:58.939 --> 00:19:00.438 DAVID OLIVER: Maybe it's dried sand. 00:19:03.650 --> 00:19:06.210 The other thing that's going to happen is where you have 00:19:06.210 --> 00:19:09.863 a leak, you're normally going to have some diffusion in the soil 00:19:09.863 --> 00:19:13.364 so they're going to be finding wherever their path of least 00:19:13.364 --> 00:19:16.265 resistance is, but then you introduce a vacuum where 00:19:16.265 --> 00:19:20.360 it's-- you're going to want to draw the gas towards that? 00:19:20.360 --> 00:19:22.735 Whether the leak is here, or it's over there. 00:19:22.735 --> 00:19:23.610 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Right. 00:19:23.610 --> 00:19:28.378 So maybe the distance between the leak and our drill hole 00:19:28.378 --> 00:19:33.218 doesn't matter, and maybe it does. 00:19:38.060 --> 00:19:39.760 Sorry, if I made it-- 00:19:39.760 --> 00:19:42.749 SPEAKER 2: What is clear about this is this all eminently 00:19:42.749 --> 00:19:43.248 testable. 00:19:43.248 --> 00:19:45.210 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Yes. 00:19:45.210 --> 00:19:47.043 SPEAKER 2: This is all experimental research 00:19:47.043 --> 00:19:49.514 and try it and-- 00:19:49.514 --> 00:19:51.520 but it doesn't sound like you have [INAUDIBLE] 00:19:51.520 --> 00:19:53.410 DAVID OLIVER: So to do these-- 00:19:53.410 --> 00:19:55.966 SPEAKER 2: That's a plus. 00:19:55.966 --> 00:19:58.336 AUDREY SCHULMAN: So there are, like, the Gas Technology 00:19:58.336 --> 00:20:02.390 Institute that's [INAUDIBLE] and there's the Montreal Research 00:20:02.390 --> 00:20:02.920 Institute? 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:04.440 ZEYNEB MAGAVI: And they have a buried pipe in the ground. 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:05.590 You can turn the valve flow. 00:20:05.590 --> 00:20:07.131 AUDREY SCHULMAN: But that costs money 00:20:07.131 --> 00:20:08.763 to do that in place and test things. 00:20:11.590 --> 00:20:15.504 Whereas, you know, a small non-profit --.