WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.960 align:middle line:90% [SQUEAKING] 00:00:01.960 --> 00:00:03.920 align:middle line:90% [RUSTLING] 00:00:03.920 --> 00:00:05.390 align:middle line:90% [CLICKING] 00:00:05.390 --> 00:00:16.108 align:middle line:90% 00:00:16.108 --> 00:00:17.150 align:middle line:90% ZEYNEB MAGAVI: All right. 00:00:17.150 --> 00:00:19.140 align:middle line:90% It is the last session. 00:00:19.140 --> 00:00:22.610 align:middle line:84% You have survived the first day almost. 00:00:22.610 --> 00:00:28.580 align:middle line:84% And I'm really excited about this session 00:00:28.580 --> 00:00:36.350 align:middle line:84% because we started the day looking at the planetary scale. 00:00:36.350 --> 00:00:43.020 align:middle line:84% And honestly, from a little bit of a slightly grim perspective, 00:00:43.020 --> 00:00:45.440 align:middle line:84% I don't think anyone left that session feeling 00:00:45.440 --> 00:00:50.750 align:middle line:84% really light and excited about the state of the world. 00:00:50.750 --> 00:00:53.870 align:middle line:84% So now we proceeded to talk about people, 00:00:53.870 --> 00:00:55.770 align:middle line:84% because no change happens without people, 00:00:55.770 --> 00:01:01.100 align:middle line:84% and then about what people can do in set rules, policy. 00:01:01.100 --> 00:01:04.660 align:middle line:84% And now we are going to go ahead and go back 00:01:04.660 --> 00:01:12.500 align:middle line:84% to the scale question, but from the perspective of with people, 00:01:12.500 --> 00:01:16.300 align:middle line:84% with technology, with ideas, with rules. 00:01:16.300 --> 00:01:19.990 align:middle line:90% What can we accomplish? 00:01:19.990 --> 00:01:24.340 align:middle line:84% So I hope we're going to end the day with a lot of excitement. 00:01:24.340 --> 00:01:28.300 align:middle line:84% And we also have two relatively new friends 00:01:28.300 --> 00:01:32.080 align:middle line:84% of mine who I deeply admire and am excited to have joining us, 00:01:32.080 --> 00:01:33.830 align:middle line:90% both not present. 00:01:33.830 --> 00:01:37.720 align:middle line:84% So we have two videos sandwiching our session today. 00:01:37.720 --> 00:01:42.100 align:middle line:84% And I am going to start with one, The Growth of GENs 00:01:42.100 --> 00:01:42.710 align:middle line:90% in Europe. 00:01:42.710 --> 00:01:44.930 align:middle line:90% Sanjeev Kumar is joining us. 00:01:44.930 --> 00:01:47.168 align:middle line:84% I believe, are you in Brussels, Sanjeev? 00:01:47.168 --> 00:01:48.210 align:middle line:90% SANJEEV KUMAR: Yes, I am. 00:01:48.210 --> 00:01:49.290 align:middle line:90% ZEYNEB MAGAVI: All right. 00:01:49.290 --> 00:01:51.040 align:middle line:84% SANJEEV KUMAR: Lovely evening in Brussels. 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:55.030 align:middle line:84% ZEYNEB MAGAVI: Lovely to see you up there. 00:01:55.030 --> 00:01:58.970 align:middle line:84% And I am going to ask you to introduce yourself to everyone. 00:01:58.970 --> 00:02:02.948 align:middle line:84% And then go ahead and proceed with your presentation. 00:02:02.948 --> 00:02:03.990 align:middle line:90% SANJEEV KUMAR: Brilliant. 00:02:03.990 --> 00:02:04.510 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:02:04.510 --> 00:02:06.240 align:middle line:84% Thank you so much, Zeyneb, firstly 00:02:06.240 --> 00:02:09.150 align:middle line:84% for the kind introduction and for the opportunity 00:02:09.150 --> 00:02:12.360 align:middle line:84% to come and talk to everybody in the room. 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:14.700 align:middle line:90% My name is Sanjeev Kumar. 00:02:14.700 --> 00:02:17.400 align:middle line:84% I'm the Head of Policy at the European Geothermal Energy 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:21.120 align:middle line:84% Council, which means that my role is to really grow markets 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:23.610 align:middle line:90% for geothermal across Europe. 00:02:23.610 --> 00:02:25.950 align:middle line:84% That's the European Union, but also 00:02:25.950 --> 00:02:32.050 align:middle line:84% countries outside, such as Iceland, Norway, down to Turkey, 00:02:32.050 --> 00:02:33.640 align:middle line:84% the Western Balkans, and Ukraine. 00:02:33.640 --> 00:02:35.735 align:middle line:84% So I look at, what are the regulatory frameworks? 00:02:35.735 --> 00:02:37.110 align:middle line:84% What are the financial structures 00:02:37.110 --> 00:02:38.620 align:middle line:90% that we need to grow geothermal? 00:02:38.620 --> 00:02:42.420 align:middle line:84% And what I'm going to do is share some of the experiences 00:02:42.420 --> 00:02:44.520 align:middle line:90% that we've had in Europe. 00:02:44.520 --> 00:02:47.580 align:middle line:84% Let me start off with some pretty basic things 00:02:47.580 --> 00:02:51.540 align:middle line:90% about the contents of Europe. 00:02:51.540 --> 00:02:53.940 align:middle line:84% And then I'm going to give you some ideas about how 00:02:53.940 --> 00:02:56.280 align:middle line:84% you can perhaps build upon the session 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:58.967 align:middle line:84% that you've had before, the discussions you've had 00:02:58.967 --> 00:03:00.800 align:middle line:84% this morning, and then the discussions we're 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:02.580 align:middle line:90% going to have tomorrow. 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:05.300 align:middle line:84% So let's start off with some basics. 00:03:05.300 --> 00:03:10.635 align:middle line:84% Europe, generally, our heat gradient is quite low. 00:03:10.635 --> 00:03:12.260 align:middle line:84% We have lower temperatures, so we don't 00:03:12.260 --> 00:03:14.180 align:middle line:90% have a lot of power generation. 00:03:14.180 --> 00:03:16.610 align:middle line:84% What we do have is a lot of heating. 00:03:16.610 --> 00:03:18.560 align:middle line:84% Our market is geared towards heating, 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:20.790 align:middle line:84% and that heat market is transitioning. 00:03:20.790 --> 00:03:22.180 align:middle line:84% As it stands at the moment, there 00:03:22.180 --> 00:03:24.080 align:middle line:84% are about 10 million people across Europe 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.210 align:middle line:84% who benefit from different types of geothermal heat pumps. 00:03:27.210 --> 00:03:29.750 align:middle line:84% These are small, closed-loop systems 00:03:29.750 --> 00:03:33.020 align:middle line:90% to large, open-loop systems. 00:03:33.020 --> 00:03:36.800 align:middle line:84% We have district heating, direct use, 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:39.360 align:middle line:90% and that's really for cities. 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:40.970 align:middle line:84% We also, in a few countries, have 00:03:40.970 --> 00:03:42.380 align:middle line:84% a lot of district heating systems 00:03:42.380 --> 00:03:44.490 align:middle line:84% just for the agriculture community. 00:03:44.490 --> 00:03:48.992 align:middle line:84% So when it comes to thinking about your new customer base, 00:03:48.992 --> 00:03:50.450 align:middle line:84% I know a lot of the conversation is 00:03:50.450 --> 00:03:52.620 align:middle line:84% going to be around residential consumers. 00:03:52.620 --> 00:03:57.020 align:middle line:84% There is a whole world outside the residential space. 00:03:57.020 --> 00:03:59.150 align:middle line:84% And people, like farmers, we found, 00:03:59.150 --> 00:04:02.400 align:middle line:84% in Europe are very, very vocal and generally tend 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:03.430 align:middle line:90% to get their own way. 00:04:03.430 --> 00:04:06.180 align:middle line:84% And they have a desire to have a permanent supply 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:07.630 align:middle line:90% of heating and cooling. 00:04:07.630 --> 00:04:09.780 align:middle line:84% So it's a fantastic customer base. 00:04:09.780 --> 00:04:10.630 align:middle line:90% Factories. 00:04:10.630 --> 00:04:12.600 align:middle line:84% There's some of the big car makers in Europe 00:04:12.600 --> 00:04:16.260 align:middle line:84% who just installed geothermal heating and cooling 00:04:16.260 --> 00:04:21.100 align:middle line:84% systems for their factories, for their head offices. 00:04:21.100 --> 00:04:22.240 align:middle line:90% It's really big. 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:24.240 align:middle line:84% And, of course, we've got 11 million consumers 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.240 align:middle line:90% tapped into geothermal power. 00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:29.250 align:middle line:84% But what I want to do is just to deep dive 00:04:29.250 --> 00:04:31.320 align:middle line:84% a little bit into what the situation in Europe 00:04:31.320 --> 00:04:34.450 align:middle line:84% is, why it's perhaps different to the US. 00:04:34.450 --> 00:04:37.350 align:middle line:84% But the challenges that we face are the same challenges 00:04:37.350 --> 00:04:39.150 align:middle line:84% that you're going to face as you start 00:04:39.150 --> 00:04:42.780 align:middle line:84% to scale up geothermal in particular, especially network 00:04:42.780 --> 00:04:43.630 align:middle line:90% geothermal. 00:04:43.630 --> 00:04:45.750 align:middle line:84% So let's start off with some basics. 00:04:45.750 --> 00:04:47.740 align:middle line:84% Like everywhere else in the world, 00:04:47.740 --> 00:04:52.920 align:middle line:84% the bulk of our heating and cooling supply is fossil based. 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:55.780 align:middle line:84% Where we have non-fossil-based heating and cooling, 00:04:55.780 --> 00:04:59.360 align:middle line:84% it's largely coming from combustible biomass. 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:01.470 align:middle line:84% And over the last five or six years, 00:05:01.470 --> 00:05:05.750 align:middle line:84% there's been quite an ugly discussion around toning down 00:05:05.750 --> 00:05:09.740 align:middle line:84% the amount of biomass to just focusing on that 00:05:09.740 --> 00:05:11.550 align:middle line:84% which can be sustainably sourced. 00:05:11.550 --> 00:05:14.570 align:middle line:84% And what that's effectively done is put a ceiling 00:05:14.570 --> 00:05:17.850 align:middle line:84% on the amount of biomass we're going to use in heating. 00:05:17.850 --> 00:05:20.510 align:middle line:84% So the growth market that they've had in the past 00:05:20.510 --> 00:05:22.050 align:middle line:90% is going to start to diminish. 00:05:22.050 --> 00:05:23.930 align:middle line:84% And what that's really doing is it's 00:05:23.930 --> 00:05:28.980 align:middle line:84% paving the way for heat pumps and for direct-use geothermal. 00:05:28.980 --> 00:05:32.070 align:middle line:84% And when we talk about heat pumps in a European context, 00:05:32.070 --> 00:05:34.620 align:middle line:84% almost everybody thinks of air-source heat pumps. 00:05:34.620 --> 00:05:38.720 align:middle line:84% So the language that we use to describe electric heating 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:41.330 align:middle line:84% with ground-source heat pumps, geothermal heat pumps 00:05:41.330 --> 00:05:44.120 align:middle line:84% is something we're going to come back to later on. 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:47.340 align:middle line:84% We also have a legacy system of district heating. 00:05:47.340 --> 00:05:50.100 align:middle line:84% So a lot of these are in former Soviet countries, 00:05:50.100 --> 00:05:52.130 align:middle line:84% but you also have them in Baltic places-- 00:05:52.130 --> 00:05:54.680 align:middle line:84% sorry, in the Scandinavian countries 00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:00.790 align:middle line:84% such as Denmark and Finland, where you have, effectively, 00:06:00.790 --> 00:06:04.720 align:middle line:84% heat networks that were built on the back of a coal plant, a gas 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:06.560 align:middle line:84% plant, or a waste incineration plant. 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:08.860 align:middle line:84% And you take the excess heat, and you pump it 00:06:08.860 --> 00:06:13.570 align:middle line:84% at high temperatures, at vast quantities through a network. 00:06:13.570 --> 00:06:16.490 align:middle line:90% These are extremely inefficient. 00:06:16.490 --> 00:06:18.560 align:middle line:90% They're very, very polluting. 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:20.890 align:middle line:84% And what's been happening over the last 20 years 00:06:20.890 --> 00:06:24.250 align:middle line:84% is that people have just been jumping, using things 00:06:24.250 --> 00:06:26.320 align:middle line:84% like air-source heat pumps, geothermal heat 00:06:26.320 --> 00:06:29.330 align:middle line:84% pumps to get themselves off of these district heating systems. 00:06:29.330 --> 00:06:32.630 align:middle line:84% So this industry has a tarnished reputation. 00:06:32.630 --> 00:06:34.910 align:middle line:84% But if we're serious about decarbonization, 00:06:34.910 --> 00:06:37.360 align:middle line:84% we're going to have to rethink our district heating 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:38.360 align:middle line:90% and cooling systems. 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:40.310 align:middle line:84% And this becomes really important to you. 00:06:40.310 --> 00:06:44.560 align:middle line:84% So it's within that context of a multitude of supplies, 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:47.050 align:middle line:84% renewable energies, incumbent fossils 00:06:47.050 --> 00:06:49.640 align:middle line:84% that network geothermal has to operate in. 00:06:49.640 --> 00:06:52.210 align:middle line:90% So that's our competition base. 00:06:52.210 --> 00:06:56.290 align:middle line:84% The other thing which is quite important to us 00:06:56.290 --> 00:06:59.130 align:middle line:84% and will become an issue for you later on 00:06:59.130 --> 00:07:02.850 align:middle line:84% is the fact that we have largely densely populated 00:07:02.850 --> 00:07:04.150 align:middle line:90% geographical spaces. 00:07:04.150 --> 00:07:06.090 align:middle line:84% So we don't have vast lands in which we can do 00:07:06.090 --> 00:07:11.680 align:middle line:90% drilling and very big networks. 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:15.120 align:middle line:84% We have to operate in tightly confined spaces. 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:18.430 align:middle line:84% And environmental protection is absolutely key. 00:07:18.430 --> 00:07:22.660 align:middle line:84% And what we found is that as the geothermal sector grows, 00:07:22.660 --> 00:07:24.570 align:middle line:84% the regulators, particularly those that 00:07:24.570 --> 00:07:27.450 align:middle line:84% are looking at protecting water-- 00:07:27.450 --> 00:07:29.920 align:middle line:90% drinking water, surface water-- 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:31.800 align:middle line:84% those that are very, very nervous 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:34.480 align:middle line:84% about geothermal activities around them, 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:36.570 align:middle line:84% but also are very concerned and are 00:07:36.570 --> 00:07:39.370 align:middle line:84% driven by the perception of negative impacts, 00:07:39.370 --> 00:07:42.990 align:middle line:84% this has, in some cases, slowed down a lot of growth 00:07:42.990 --> 00:07:46.150 align:middle line:84% that we've seen in some of the really advancing countries, 00:07:46.150 --> 00:07:49.110 align:middle line:84% such as the Netherlands, where now it's much harder for us 00:07:49.110 --> 00:07:49.900 align:middle line:90% to get a permit. 00:07:49.900 --> 00:07:52.770 align:middle line:84% So permitting becomes an issue once you 00:07:52.770 --> 00:07:57.180 align:middle line:84% start to see a reasonable size of growth 00:07:57.180 --> 00:07:59.900 align:middle line:90% within your geothermal systems. 00:07:59.900 --> 00:08:02.450 align:middle line:84% The other two things from this one 00:08:02.450 --> 00:08:04.520 align:middle line:84% is that when we often talk about geothermal 00:08:04.520 --> 00:08:07.520 align:middle line:84% in a European context, you can see from the three 00:08:07.520 --> 00:08:10.070 align:middle line:84% different types of geothermal heat pumps 00:08:10.070 --> 00:08:13.160 align:middle line:84% that we tend to focus on the first two, 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:17.120 align:middle line:84% so vertical boreholes or two vertical boreholes 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:18.810 align:middle line:90% linked to a hydrothermal source. 00:08:18.810 --> 00:08:22.370 align:middle line:84% The example that you have at the end with a loop that's 00:08:22.370 --> 00:08:24.590 align:middle line:84% quite shallow, there's just not enough space 00:08:24.590 --> 00:08:27.200 align:middle line:84% for that to really operate in a European context. 00:08:27.200 --> 00:08:28.820 align:middle line:84% So that means that we are looking 00:08:28.820 --> 00:08:33.169 align:middle line:84% at deeper types of drilling, much more sophisticated. 00:08:33.169 --> 00:08:35.909 align:middle line:84% And access to land that becomes more important, 00:08:35.909 --> 00:08:39.200 align:middle line:84% as well as being able to get drilling rigs into people's 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:42.169 align:middle line:90% gardens or down streets. 00:08:42.169 --> 00:08:45.200 align:middle line:84% One of the other things that's happened is, in a few countries 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:46.820 align:middle line:84% where the market has started to grow 00:08:46.820 --> 00:08:50.450 align:middle line:84% and it hasn't been regulated, we've 00:08:50.450 --> 00:08:52.980 align:middle line:84% had the issue of thermal interference, 00:08:52.980 --> 00:08:55.310 align:middle line:84% where people have been installing geothermal heat 00:08:55.310 --> 00:08:57.680 align:middle line:84% pumps in their back gardens, but they're 00:08:57.680 --> 00:09:00.050 align:middle line:84% too close to somebody else's back garden. 00:09:00.050 --> 00:09:02.650 align:middle line:84% And what you do then is they install a heat pump, 00:09:02.650 --> 00:09:05.500 align:middle line:84% a geothermal heat pump, and you're effectively 00:09:05.500 --> 00:09:08.830 align:middle line:84% diminishing the overall thermal efficiency of that one. 00:09:08.830 --> 00:09:12.410 align:middle line:84% That's led to lawsuits in Ireland, for example. 00:09:12.410 --> 00:09:16.368 align:middle line:84% It kind of, again, dampened down the growth in that market. 00:09:16.368 --> 00:09:18.160 align:middle line:84% So these are the kind of things that you're 00:09:18.160 --> 00:09:20.260 align:middle line:84% going to have to start to think through. 00:09:20.260 --> 00:09:25.450 align:middle line:84% And for us, the most important issue becomes permitting. 00:09:25.450 --> 00:09:28.600 align:middle line:84% You can see from the map at the bottom that's a map of France 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:32.707 align:middle line:90% at a 100-meter depth. 00:09:32.707 --> 00:09:34.540 align:middle line:84% If you're going to install a geothermal heat 00:09:34.540 --> 00:09:36.730 align:middle line:84% pump, the zones in green, you just 00:09:36.730 --> 00:09:39.580 align:middle line:84% have to do a simple email to your local government just 00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:44.050 align:middle line:84% to say, hey, this is where I'm installing my borehole. 00:09:44.050 --> 00:09:46.270 align:middle line:84% This is the kind of depth it's going to be, 00:09:46.270 --> 00:09:48.970 align:middle line:84% and this is the geolocation as close 00:09:48.970 --> 00:09:50.800 align:middle line:90% as you can possibly get it. 00:09:50.800 --> 00:09:53.170 align:middle line:84% And then that can be noted somewhere in a registry 00:09:53.170 --> 00:09:56.170 align:middle line:84% so that later on, in maybe 10, 15 years' time, if somebody 00:09:56.170 --> 00:09:58.230 align:middle line:84% else wants to plot something, they 00:09:58.230 --> 00:10:00.000 align:middle line:84% can very quickly check and see if there's 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:03.810 align:middle line:84% going to be any kind of negative impact on any additional systems 00:10:03.810 --> 00:10:05.340 align:middle line:90% coming on. 00:10:05.340 --> 00:10:06.670 align:middle line:90% Then you have orange areas. 00:10:06.670 --> 00:10:10.510 align:middle line:84% Orange areas are sensitive subsurface activity. 00:10:10.510 --> 00:10:13.990 align:middle line:84% And you need to get some form of external recognition. 00:10:13.990 --> 00:10:18.280 align:middle line:84% Again, this is for a 100-meters, 200-meters depth. 00:10:18.280 --> 00:10:21.790 align:middle line:84% There needs to be some form of third-party assessment. 00:10:21.790 --> 00:10:23.550 align:middle line:84% And then the red areas are really 00:10:23.550 --> 00:10:26.470 align:middle line:84% where you need to have a full environmental impact assessment. 00:10:26.470 --> 00:10:28.710 align:middle line:90% They're very sensitive areas. 00:10:28.710 --> 00:10:32.040 align:middle line:84% And you can see that the congregation 00:10:32.040 --> 00:10:40.090 align:middle line:84% of red dots on the eastern part of France is the Alsace region, 00:10:40.090 --> 00:10:42.978 align:middle line:84% and the Alsace region is a volcanic region. 00:10:42.978 --> 00:10:44.520 align:middle line:84% There have been examples where people 00:10:44.520 --> 00:10:48.570 align:middle line:84% have drilled geothermal heat pumps and in one case, 00:10:48.570 --> 00:10:51.940 align:middle line:84% actually, damaged eight or nine properties within a village. 00:10:51.940 --> 00:10:55.680 align:middle line:84% And that led to a variety of lawsuits and really did 00:10:55.680 --> 00:10:57.580 align:middle line:84% give a negative impression to geothermal, 00:10:57.580 --> 00:11:00.940 align:middle line:84% even if France is one of those countries that's really gung ho. 00:11:00.940 --> 00:11:05.050 align:middle line:84% In Alsace, the mayor of Alsace, all of them 00:11:05.050 --> 00:11:06.350 align:middle line:90% don't like geothermal. 00:11:06.350 --> 00:11:09.110 align:middle line:84% And they lump all geothermal into this basket. 00:11:09.110 --> 00:11:10.780 align:middle line:84% So we need to be very, very sensitive 00:11:10.780 --> 00:11:13.950 align:middle line:84% around the environmental impacts as your market starts to grow. 00:11:13.950 --> 00:11:16.540 align:middle line:90% 00:11:16.540 --> 00:11:19.040 align:middle line:84% I noticed you might not be able to see this graphic clearly, 00:11:19.040 --> 00:11:22.060 align:middle line:84% but you can blow up the screen when you get the slides. 00:11:22.060 --> 00:11:26.200 align:middle line:84% Sweden is the largest country in terms of installed capacity. 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:27.940 align:middle line:90% Germany's second. 00:11:27.940 --> 00:11:29.120 align:middle line:90% France is third. 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:30.950 align:middle line:84% But really, the countries to look at, 00:11:30.950 --> 00:11:33.800 align:middle line:84% if you're going to look at them, are Belgium, the Netherlands, 00:11:33.800 --> 00:11:34.610 align:middle line:90% and Poland. 00:11:34.610 --> 00:11:38.240 align:middle line:84% These really have grown, roughly, over the last decade. 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.480 align:middle line:84% These are new entrance, and that's 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.140 align:middle line:84% where all the innovation is happening. 00:11:42.140 --> 00:11:44.740 align:middle line:84% And part of the innovation story in a country like Belgium 00:11:44.740 --> 00:11:46.360 align:middle line:90% is around network geothermal. 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:47.860 align:middle line:84% I'm going to come onto that later on 00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:50.320 align:middle line:90% as to why that's the case. 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:53.530 align:middle line:84% And then what you can see here, on the figure 14, 00:11:53.530 --> 00:11:57.200 align:middle line:84% is the density of heat pumps per 1,000 households. 00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:59.610 align:middle line:84% So again, Sweden is the most populous country. 00:11:59.610 --> 00:12:04.620 align:middle line:84% In Sweden, home buyers generally tend to look at five criteria 00:12:04.620 --> 00:12:06.580 align:middle line:84% when they're purchasing a new property. 00:12:06.580 --> 00:12:09.480 align:middle line:84% And a geothermal heat pump is normally the fourth or fifth 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:11.490 align:middle line:90% thing that they look at. 00:12:11.490 --> 00:12:17.880 align:middle line:84% Before the construction industry collapsed in around 2020, 00:12:17.880 --> 00:12:22.070 align:middle line:84% houses with geothermal heat pumps sold for 12,000 to 15,000 00:12:22.070 --> 00:12:25.110 align:middle line:84% euros more than houses that didn't. 00:12:25.110 --> 00:12:27.600 align:middle line:84% So there was a clear recognition in a mature market 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:30.780 align:middle line:84% that this really does add value to your property. 00:12:30.780 --> 00:12:33.160 align:middle line:84% We haven't quite seen that in other countries. 00:12:33.160 --> 00:12:36.220 align:middle line:84% But as they start to grow and they become much more populous, 00:12:36.220 --> 00:12:41.070 align:middle line:84% we expect this to still need to be the next big country where 00:12:41.070 --> 00:12:44.400 align:middle line:84% you've got a lot of geothermal heat pumps in there. 00:12:44.400 --> 00:12:46.110 align:middle line:84% Now, what's happened is that you've 00:12:46.110 --> 00:12:48.527 align:middle line:84% had the kind of conventional story around district heating 00:12:48.527 --> 00:12:50.980 align:middle line:90% and geothermal heat pumps. 00:12:50.980 --> 00:12:54.300 align:middle line:84% And then out of nowhere, network geothermal came onto the scene. 00:12:54.300 --> 00:12:57.170 align:middle line:84% And they were young and sexy and fresh. 00:12:57.170 --> 00:13:00.230 align:middle line:84% And everyone's like, oh, my god, I need to have this. 00:13:00.230 --> 00:13:05.060 align:middle line:84% But this has come, really, from three angles. 00:13:05.060 --> 00:13:08.010 align:middle line:84% So the first angle is that district heating, 00:13:08.010 --> 00:13:10.590 align:middle line:84% you had a lot of people leaving district heating systems. 00:13:10.590 --> 00:13:13.858 align:middle line:84% And what you started to find is that they were in communities. 00:13:13.858 --> 00:13:16.400 align:middle line:84% And once you start to take a community off a district heating 00:13:16.400 --> 00:13:19.580 align:middle line:84% system, the overall cost profile and the efficiency 00:13:19.580 --> 00:13:22.820 align:middle line:84% of that district heating system become a problem. 00:13:22.820 --> 00:13:25.850 align:middle line:84% So it's caused some negative tension with the district 00:13:25.850 --> 00:13:27.120 align:middle line:90% heating community. 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:28.940 align:middle line:84% On the other hand, you've had lots 00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:30.860 align:middle line:84% of people who were looking at doing 00:13:30.860 --> 00:13:32.365 align:middle line:84% their own individual installation. 00:13:32.365 --> 00:13:34.490 align:middle line:84% And then they suddenly realized, well, actually, we 00:13:34.490 --> 00:13:37.050 align:middle line:84% can band together and create a community energy scheme. 00:13:37.050 --> 00:13:39.890 align:middle line:84% And in a country like Belgium, community energy 00:13:39.890 --> 00:13:43.340 align:middle line:84% is really the thing that's driving this push 00:13:43.340 --> 00:13:44.467 align:middle line:90% towards network geothermal. 00:13:44.467 --> 00:13:45.550 align:middle line:90% It's not just communities. 00:13:45.550 --> 00:13:48.000 align:middle line:90% It's property developers. 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:48.965 align:middle line:90% It's rural communities. 00:13:48.965 --> 00:13:51.090 align:middle line:84% It's a variety of people who are just saying, look, 00:13:51.090 --> 00:13:53.557 align:middle line:84% it makes sense for us to work together 00:13:53.557 --> 00:13:55.640 align:middle line:84% to build a common infrastructure because then it's 00:13:55.640 --> 00:13:56.900 align:middle line:90% so much cheaper. 00:13:56.900 --> 00:13:58.630 align:middle line:84% And just for full disclosure, I've 00:13:58.630 --> 00:14:00.200 align:middle line:84% tried to set one up in my street. 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:01.430 align:middle line:90% I live opposite a school. 00:14:01.430 --> 00:14:03.920 align:middle line:84% I want the school to have all the boreholes 00:14:03.920 --> 00:14:08.890 align:middle line:84% and for us to pay a small fee to connect to their system. 00:14:08.890 --> 00:14:13.700 align:middle line:84% Of the 72 houses in my two blocks, 00:14:13.700 --> 00:14:15.350 align:middle line:84% we've got 30, so far, who are keen. 00:14:15.350 --> 00:14:16.700 align:middle line:84% We need to get everyone else on board, 00:14:16.700 --> 00:14:19.200 align:middle line:84% and then we need to lobby the school to agree to do this one 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:22.100 align:middle line:84% and get some way in which we can finance it. 00:14:22.100 --> 00:14:27.470 align:middle line:84% But individual installations are not the default option anymore. 00:14:27.470 --> 00:14:30.410 align:middle line:84% People want to be part of a collective system. 00:14:30.410 --> 00:14:33.670 align:middle line:84% It's part of the normalization of the technology as well. 00:14:33.670 --> 00:14:34.940 align:middle line:90% And then the third element-- 00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:36.773 align:middle line:84% and I'm going to spend a bit of time on this 00:14:36.773 --> 00:14:38.810 align:middle line:84% later on-- is the planning aspect. 00:14:38.810 --> 00:14:43.310 align:middle line:84% Because Europe has been heavily dependent upon imported gas, 00:14:43.310 --> 00:14:47.050 align:middle line:84% and the crisis that happened after Ukraine was invaded, 00:14:47.050 --> 00:14:48.680 align:middle line:84% the response was saying, OK, well, 00:14:48.680 --> 00:14:50.830 align:middle line:84% we need to make someone responsible for planning 00:14:50.830 --> 00:14:52.390 align:middle line:90% a transition. 00:14:52.390 --> 00:14:55.100 align:middle line:84% And whilst you have all the campaigners saying, look, 00:14:55.100 --> 00:14:56.900 align:middle line:84% the revolution is going to be exciting, 00:14:56.900 --> 00:14:59.630 align:middle line:84% we're going to be manning the barricades, it's not true. 00:14:59.630 --> 00:15:02.680 align:middle line:84% The energy revolution is all about logistics and planning 00:15:02.680 --> 00:15:03.830 align:middle line:90% and finance. 00:15:03.830 --> 00:15:05.110 align:middle line:90% That's all it is. 00:15:05.110 --> 00:15:08.540 align:middle line:84% I can see Helen smiling here on this point. 00:15:08.540 --> 00:15:11.570 align:middle line:90% But it really is that pedantic. 00:15:11.570 --> 00:15:13.270 align:middle line:84% You need to get out maps of streets 00:15:13.270 --> 00:15:15.970 align:middle line:84% and start working out, well, actually, what parts can we 00:15:15.970 --> 00:15:17.300 align:middle line:90% convert quickly? 00:15:17.300 --> 00:15:18.193 align:middle line:90% Who goes first? 00:15:18.193 --> 00:15:18.860 align:middle line:90% Who goes second? 00:15:18.860 --> 00:15:19.790 align:middle line:90% Who goes third? 00:15:19.790 --> 00:15:22.660 align:middle line:84% But more importantly, who makes those decisions? 00:15:22.660 --> 00:15:26.860 align:middle line:84% So let me give you some examples to illustrate this transition. 00:15:26.860 --> 00:15:29.480 align:middle line:84% ZEYNEB MAGAVI: And, Sanjeev, I'm going to briefly say-- 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:33.130 align:middle line:84% because you're on the screen-- that a couple of minutes 00:15:33.130 --> 00:15:34.670 align:middle line:84% for the examples would be wonderful. 00:15:34.670 --> 00:15:35.060 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:15:35.060 --> 00:15:35.390 align:middle line:90% SANJEEV KUMAR: Yeah, yeah. 00:15:35.390 --> 00:15:35.670 align:middle line:90% No, no. 00:15:35.670 --> 00:15:37.307 align:middle line:84% I'm going to race through these ones. 00:15:37.307 --> 00:15:39.890 align:middle line:84% In fact, I'll just give you one example here, Enfield Council. 00:15:39.890 --> 00:15:41.420 align:middle line:90% This is a local authority. 00:15:41.420 --> 00:15:45.100 align:middle line:84% They converted to geothermal not because they love their network 00:15:45.100 --> 00:15:48.247 align:middle line:84% geothermal, but because the people who 00:15:48.247 --> 00:15:50.830 align:middle line:84% were living in the four tower blocks-- you can see two of them 00:15:50.830 --> 00:15:53.770 align:middle line:84% behind you-- they were massively, massively 00:15:53.770 --> 00:15:56.370 align:middle line:84% indebted in terms of their energy costs. 00:15:56.370 --> 00:15:59.360 align:middle line:84% They had a social-political crisis. 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.220 align:middle line:84% They looked at all sorts of options 00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:03.050 align:middle line:84% and opted for network geothermal. 00:16:03.050 --> 00:16:05.840 align:middle line:84% Instead of refurbishing one building and one building block 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:08.970 align:middle line:84% by block, what they decided to do was all four of them in one 00:16:08.970 --> 00:16:09.470 align:middle line:90% go. 00:16:09.470 --> 00:16:12.450 align:middle line:84% And then you got the real system efficiencies kicking through. 00:16:12.450 --> 00:16:16.790 align:middle line:84% And you can see the savings, between 450 to 700 pounds 00:16:16.790 --> 00:16:19.850 align:middle line:84% per year, depending on the residents, so the energy 00:16:19.850 --> 00:16:21.690 align:middle line:84% consumption within those buildings. 00:16:21.690 --> 00:16:23.750 align:middle line:84% This is my favorite project, simply because this 00:16:23.750 --> 00:16:25.200 align:middle line:90% is in the heart of Brussels. 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:28.890 align:middle line:84% And it proves that where you have listed buildings, 00:16:28.890 --> 00:16:30.840 align:middle line:84% you can actually do geothermal projects. 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:32.740 align:middle line:84% And that's part of the sexy thing about it. 00:16:32.740 --> 00:16:34.490 align:middle line:84% And that's really where network geothermal 00:16:34.490 --> 00:16:36.090 align:middle line:90% has kicked off in Brussels. 00:16:36.090 --> 00:16:40.350 align:middle line:84% Sant Pau Hospital is a 16th-century site. 00:16:40.350 --> 00:16:42.810 align:middle line:84% You cannot touch this building place at all. 00:16:42.810 --> 00:16:45.690 align:middle line:84% There's a huge complex of schools. 00:16:45.690 --> 00:16:47.790 align:middle line:90% It's a UNESCO Heritage Site. 00:16:47.790 --> 00:16:49.550 align:middle line:90% Geothermal was the only option. 00:16:49.550 --> 00:16:52.610 align:middle line:84% And rather than doing individual ground-source heat pumps, 00:16:52.610 --> 00:16:54.110 align:middle line:84% creating the heat network was really 00:16:54.110 --> 00:16:56.600 align:middle line:84% where you got the system efficiencies coming through. 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:57.890 align:middle line:90% The biggest project in Spain. 00:16:57.890 --> 00:16:59.650 align:middle line:84% This is really what I want to talk to you about. 00:16:59.650 --> 00:17:00.470 align:middle line:90% A couple of things. 00:17:00.470 --> 00:17:01.420 align:middle line:90% Policy matters. 00:17:01.420 --> 00:17:04.690 align:middle line:84% Now, what's absolutely essential is 00:17:04.690 --> 00:17:06.490 align:middle line:84% that, even if geothermal isn't mentioned 00:17:06.490 --> 00:17:08.740 align:middle line:84% in the first round of policy, once you start 00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:11.750 align:middle line:84% to get people thinking about what zero looks like, 00:17:11.750 --> 00:17:15.980 align:middle line:84% what a fully renewable system could be, 00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:18.800 align:middle line:84% they'll almost always come and discover geothermal. 00:17:18.800 --> 00:17:20.810 align:middle line:84% And then they'll start complaining by saying, 00:17:20.810 --> 00:17:23.030 align:middle line:84% why didn't you tell us this existed before? 00:17:23.030 --> 00:17:24.819 align:middle line:84% And what happened in Wallonia, which 00:17:24.819 --> 00:17:28.000 align:middle line:84% is a small part of Belgium, is they invested, 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:30.280 align:middle line:84% just put 35 million euros up front 00:17:30.280 --> 00:17:31.820 align:middle line:90% for some very basic grants. 00:17:31.820 --> 00:17:33.890 align:middle line:84% They did a lot of iconic projects. 00:17:33.890 --> 00:17:37.240 align:middle line:84% But more importantly, you had Karno, the energy company, 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:39.670 align:middle line:84% all of a sudden become a national champion in network 00:17:39.670 --> 00:17:40.550 align:middle line:90% geothermal. 00:17:40.550 --> 00:17:43.790 align:middle line:84% And Resolia, who were the engineering design company, 00:17:43.790 --> 00:17:46.220 align:middle line:84% are now winning contracts all across Europe. 00:17:46.220 --> 00:17:49.480 align:middle line:84% So there's an industrial policy story more than just the energy 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:50.590 align:middle line:90% savings. 00:17:50.590 --> 00:17:52.840 align:middle line:84% But what I said earlier, the planning bit 00:17:52.840 --> 00:17:54.260 align:middle line:90% is absolutely essential. 00:17:54.260 --> 00:17:56.180 align:middle line:84% And the two key things in the planning bit 00:17:56.180 --> 00:17:59.220 align:middle line:84% is to make sure that whenever you're conducting a plan, 00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:02.880 align:middle line:84% it has to be based on local, renewable energy supplies. 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:04.860 align:middle line:84% If you take those two words out of it, 00:18:04.860 --> 00:18:06.750 align:middle line:90% you will end up with biomass. 00:18:06.750 --> 00:18:09.860 align:middle line:84% You'll end up with a variety of Frankenstein solutions. 00:18:09.860 --> 00:18:11.610 align:middle line:84% If you want to keep it towards geothermal, 00:18:11.610 --> 00:18:13.430 align:middle line:84% you've got to focus on the locality 00:18:13.430 --> 00:18:16.160 align:middle line:84% and the renewable aspect around it. 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:18.830 align:middle line:84% But really, what's super pertinent 00:18:18.830 --> 00:18:21.270 align:middle line:84% around this is the fact that words matter. 00:18:21.270 --> 00:18:24.450 align:middle line:84% So when we describe network geothermal, 00:18:24.450 --> 00:18:26.750 align:middle line:84% the reason why we'd say network geothermal and not 00:18:26.750 --> 00:18:29.930 align:middle line:84% fifth-generation district heating or-- 00:18:29.930 --> 00:18:33.230 align:middle line:84% sorry-- heat pump networks is that they don't 00:18:33.230 --> 00:18:34.710 align:middle line:90% have the word geothermal in. 00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:36.540 align:middle line:84% And if you don't have the word geothermal, 00:18:36.540 --> 00:18:38.123 align:middle line:84% you're going to miss all of the things 00:18:38.123 --> 00:18:41.180 align:middle line:84% that you need to go through to get to the network geothermal 00:18:41.180 --> 00:18:42.260 align:middle line:90% system. 00:18:42.260 --> 00:18:44.160 align:middle line:84% Always focus on who makes the investment. 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.290 align:middle line:84% And some of the examples I showed you, 00:18:46.290 --> 00:18:47.430 align:middle line:90% it's the local government. 00:18:47.430 --> 00:18:48.720 align:middle line:90% It's a community. 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:50.160 align:middle line:90% It's a property developer. 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.350 align:middle line:84% Their needs are completely different. 00:18:52.350 --> 00:18:54.320 align:middle line:84% But the way in which they access finance 00:18:54.320 --> 00:18:55.850 align:middle line:90% is also completely different. 00:18:55.850 --> 00:18:58.390 align:middle line:90% So it changes the gambit. 00:18:58.390 --> 00:19:00.650 align:middle line:84% Business models are the most important thing. 00:19:00.650 --> 00:19:02.900 align:middle line:84% It's not about, can you do the project? 00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:06.020 align:middle line:84% It's about, how do you make it profitable for everybody? 00:19:06.020 --> 00:19:08.860 align:middle line:84% And that's where the innovation around whether you 00:19:08.860 --> 00:19:11.680 align:middle line:84% have an on-balance or off-balance sheet. 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.180 align:middle line:84% What's the size and the length of the project? 00:19:14.180 --> 00:19:15.980 align:middle line:90% How do you build in the modules? 00:19:15.980 --> 00:19:19.060 align:middle line:84% How do you disaggregate the different prices 00:19:19.060 --> 00:19:19.880 align:middle line:90% that people pay? 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.000 align:middle line:84% This is the most important thing when it comes 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.940 align:middle line:90% to designing a system at scale. 00:19:24.940 --> 00:19:27.050 align:middle line:84% Super important-- drilling is sexy. 00:19:27.050 --> 00:19:29.390 align:middle line:84% So whilst everyone talks about the energy savings, 00:19:29.390 --> 00:19:32.990 align:middle line:84% the greenhouse gas emission reductions, that's great. 00:19:32.990 --> 00:19:35.242 align:middle line:84% But in the geothermal world, once you've 00:19:35.242 --> 00:19:36.700 align:middle line:84% done the installation, you will not 00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:40.090 align:middle line:84% see geothermal ever again apart from two black pipes coming out 00:19:40.090 --> 00:19:42.470 align:middle line:90% into your heat pump. 00:19:42.470 --> 00:19:46.360 align:middle line:84% So the drilling bit is where you get people attracted. 00:19:46.360 --> 00:19:47.260 align:middle line:90% Two more things. 00:19:47.260 --> 00:19:48.970 align:middle line:84% Super important-- you've got to have 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:52.900 align:middle line:84% more and more people providing the service of designing 00:19:52.900 --> 00:19:54.710 align:middle line:90% and installation. 00:19:54.710 --> 00:19:57.520 align:middle line:84% The more you do that, the more competitive the price becomes, 00:19:57.520 --> 00:20:00.940 align:middle line:84% the more you start to get suppliers chasing markets. 00:20:00.940 --> 00:20:03.010 align:middle line:84% And this is really the space we want to get to. 00:20:03.010 --> 00:20:05.677 align:middle line:84% And then the final thing is that whilst we talk about the energy 00:20:05.677 --> 00:20:07.890 align:middle line:84% service delivery, the real political win 00:20:07.890 --> 00:20:09.700 align:middle line:90% is in industrial policy. 00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:13.027 align:middle line:84% Can you set up manufacturing, any part 00:20:13.027 --> 00:20:14.110 align:middle line:90% of the component features? 00:20:14.110 --> 00:20:16.800 align:middle line:84% Can you create companies with design experts or training 00:20:16.800 --> 00:20:18.430 align:middle line:90% experts or drilling experts? 00:20:18.430 --> 00:20:20.380 align:middle line:84% That's where you get the real value for money, 00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:22.755 align:middle line:84% and that's where the politicians really start to wake up. 00:20:22.755 --> 00:20:24.030 align:middle line:90% So on that note-- 00:20:24.030 --> 00:20:27.017 align:middle line:84% sorry-- act local, think global, go geothermal. 00:20:27.017 --> 00:20:27.975 align:middle line:90% ZEYNEB MAGAVI: [LAUGHS] 00:20:27.975 --> 00:20:29.430 align:middle line:90% [APPLAUSE] 00:20:29.430 --> 00:20:30.400 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.450 align:middle line:90% Thank you, Sanjeev. 00:20:31.450 --> 00:20:35.100 align:middle line:84% And I see that your previous slide, you apparently 00:20:35.100 --> 00:20:37.840 align:middle line:84% agree with our administration's drill baby, drill. 00:20:37.840 --> 00:20:39.990 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 00:20:39.990 --> 00:20:43.460 align:middle line:84% So thank you for covering so much. 00:20:43.460 --> 00:20:55.000 align:middle line:90%