WEBVTT

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[SQUEAKING]

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[RUSTLING]

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[CLICKING]

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SPEAKER: Next, we're going to
hear from Ania Camargo, who

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is associate director of
Thermal Networks at the Building

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Decarbonization
Coalition to talk

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about that rapidly-evolving
policy landscape.

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ANIA CAMARGO: And
there's a little clicker?

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SPEAKER: There's a
clicker up there, I think.

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ANIA CAMARGO: All right.

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OK.

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Hi.

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Good afternoon, everyone.

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So you see I have Geo
there in parentheses.

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And that is because most
of the legislation that's

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passed to date uses the
term thermal energy network.

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So you will be
hearing me say that.

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But in general, I'm talking
about the broad category

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of both geothermal energy
networks and thermal energy

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networks.

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And I'm just going to give
you a picture of what's

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happening nationally.

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So here is how a
bill becomes law.

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This is real.

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It is just never
a straight line.

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It's very messy.

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And the reason why it's messy
is what Delegate Charkoudian

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was saying.

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It's about bringing
stakeholders together

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with different interests
and making sure

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that all of their
interests are being met.

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So rarely does the start
end up like the finish.

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But the really good news
with thermal networks

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is that states are
learning from each other.

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So this is becoming
a little less muddy.

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And legislation is
moving really fast.

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So again, I'm going to start
with this one on what's

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the general journey that
we're seeing in legislation?

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And again, I have
the word "utility"

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up there because the only--

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anyone can build a thermal
network right now, municipality,

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lots of colleges
and universities,

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a hospital, anyone, except
for a regulated utility.

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And so we have to
pass legislation

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to allow gas and electric
or water companies

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to build thermal networks.

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So the way it starts is exactly
like Delegate Charkoudian said.

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It's on all the states
that we're working,

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or that are passing
this legislation,

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it's really a
group of advocates.

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In her case, she was the
legislator who started,

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but then she worked with
all the people here.

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If you heard this
morning from Kelsey,

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it started with
Mothers Out Front.

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And then the underpinning of
this, for the legislation that

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has passed so far, is that all
of the states-- so eight bills

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have passed.

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All of the states have
significant climate commitments

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of at least reducing total
emissions by 75% or more

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and greening the grid--

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so RPS commitments.

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And seven out of
the eight that have

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passed have future
of gas proceedings,

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meaning the regulators have
said, hey, gas companies,

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how are you going to
meet these commitments?

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So this is what's happened
to date, not necessarily what

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will happen in the future.

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But this is the
kind of bills are

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very attached to our emissions.

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Once legislation passes,
there's a whole process

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that kicks off with
the regulators, which

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you will hear after me
from Chair Van Nostrand.

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But it's kind of a negotiation
between the utilities

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and the regulators looking at
the legislation that passed,

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saying, OK.

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What needs to happen for us
to be able to move forward?

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At the same time,
you're going to have

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to be working on the
workforce supply chain,

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making sure there's community
outreach, et cetera.

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And then you can
get to construction.

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So, so far, only one project,
which is here in Massachusetts

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has made it through
construction.

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And all of the bills
that have passed

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require data collection
and pilot evaluation.

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So again, every
state is different,

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but this is the broad
thing that we're

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seeing across the state that
gets legislation passed.

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And here are the eight
states that have passed.

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they're listed
there on the right.

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You will notice,
2021, Massachusetts

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passed the first bill that
allowed network geothermal.

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And just this year,
2024, four bills passed,

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as well as several
states did another round

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of passing legislation.

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And then you see there dark
blue, considering legislation.

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Actually, just this month,
already five new states

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have filed legislation.

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So we are expecting this
to continue to grow.

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And this you don't
need to read this.

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It's just to give you a sense
of what's in these bills.

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You see the states
across the top.

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And you can see what
the provisions are.

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And the key thing about
here is the states

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are learning from each other.

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And this is on our website,
so you can check it out.

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All right.

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So now I'm going to combine it.

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What does this all mean?

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And it's really about how does
the technology and the stuff

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on the ground relate to the
legislation and the regulation?

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So here's a great diagram
that HEET put together.

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It's a gas system, and
you can see that very cute

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little section of green.

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That's the thermal network.

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And so this is
the demonstration.

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All eight bills either
allow or mandate pilot.

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So everyone is starting
with demonstrations.

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So what's the kind of
work that comes with that?

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The bills include a whole
series of things that

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are about these pilots, right?

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So the definitions, ownership
is really interesting.

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And starting with New York,
the legislation actually

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says gas and electric
utilities can own and operate

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thermal energy networks.

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And then, several of
the states after that

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implemented the same thing.

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Massachusetts, we just
passed legislation in 2024

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that allows the selling
of thermal energy

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by the gas utilities.

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So I'm including
environmental protections.

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Labor standards, you
just heard from Ryan.

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In New York, That.

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Group of advocates,
one of the core members

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of that group of advocates
were labor leaders.

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And so there are very
strong labor standards

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in the New York bill that are
about the geothermal workforce

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in general, but also about
the existing workforce

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and how they're going to be
transitioned as part of this.

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Consumer protections,
I should say also,

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environmental justice in there.

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Many of the bills, again,
starting with New York,

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require at least one pilot to
be in an environmental justice

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community.

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And several of them say
that the customer should not

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have to pay more than
what they're currently

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paying on their bills.

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All of them include
cost recovery.

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So the pilots can go
through the rates.

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But the issue is
what's included.

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And so the states vary in that.

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Here in Massachusetts,
everything

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could go through the rates.

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In California, for example, all
of the behind-the-meter costs,

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which are pretty significant,
all the retrofits cannot.

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And so they're struggling
with how are we going to pay

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for that/ And then pilot data,
collection and reporting,

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I guess I already said,
they're all doing this.

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Anyway, so this
is how this works.

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Next step is development.

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And this is-- now where we're
starting here in Massachusetts,

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it's like you grab what you
learned from that first pilot,

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and now we're expanding.

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And how is that going to work?

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And so through that
some of these bills

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are starting to pass, and
there's some conversations.

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Interim rate design,
how are we going

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to design the rates
to deal with this?

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Amending the obligation to
serve this is a huge one.

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Many states filed legislation
to try to change this.

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And I'm going to
explain what that

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is, which is if any one of
those little green houses

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says no, I want to stay on gas,
it means that the gas system has

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to stay.

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You can't pull it back.

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And so amending it so that
the gas utilities can expand

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their service to not
just be about gas,

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but also to be-- or
to sell thermal energy

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allows them to then say, OK.

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We're going to provide
you heating and cooling,

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but it's not going
to be with gas.

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And so, so far, two
states have touched

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that, Washington State,
four thermal energy networks

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are allowed to
meet the obligation

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to serve with thermal.

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And California has a
really interesting one

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where they said if 60% of
a street or the segment

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that they're taking
the gas pipe out of

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says that they want
a thermal network,

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then they're allowed to meet the
obligation to serve that way.

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Gas-- so then joint
electric planning,

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this is our commissioner.

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Chair Van Nostrand
will talk about this.

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But basically, one of
the biggest benefits

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of putting in these
thermal networks

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is the impact on
the electric grid.

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And so being able to
have that joint planning

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and prioritizing of where
these things should be built

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is really important.

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And so we're
starting to see that

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already, and not only in
Massachusetts but elsewhere,

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and thinking of, OK.

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If you're going to replace a
pipe, that's an obvious place.

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If you're going to
build a substation,

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an electric substation because
you're running out of capacity,

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maybe that's a great place.

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So that's starting.

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And then, of course, the
full system transition,

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which is what we all want, is
going to require a lot more.

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And this really hasn't started.

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We filed some of this
cycle for two years

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from now here in Massachusetts.

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But creating a thermal
market, allowing folks

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to buy and sell energy,
integrating utilities,

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gas, electric, and
potentially even water--

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the water utilities also
have a lot of thermal energy.

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Waste heat recovery,
what are the rules

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going to be around that?

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Tactical transition plans
for whole cities and regions,

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and so this idea that
you can map out you

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know how old your pipe is.

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You know what's going to
have to be taken down.

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What's going to make the
most sense for everything?

00:09:21.820 --> 00:09:24.840 align:middle line:84%
And how can we transition the
whole system thinking 10 years

00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.720 align:middle line:90%
ahead and not just five or two?

00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:30.500 align:middle line:84%
And then the final rate
design, still in consideration,

00:09:30.500 --> 00:09:34.040 align:middle line:84%
and I'm involved in a few
dockets across the country,

00:09:34.040 --> 00:09:37.020 align:middle line:84%
in some places, the
combination of the electric--

00:09:37.020 --> 00:09:40.800 align:middle line:84%
I'm sorry, of the thermal and
geo rate makes a lot of sense.

00:09:40.800 --> 00:09:42.833 align:middle line:84%
It's being covered
by all the customers.

00:09:42.833 --> 00:09:44.750 align:middle line:84%
Some folks are fighting
that and saying no, it

00:09:44.750 --> 00:09:45.810 align:middle line:90%
should be by itself.

00:09:45.810 --> 00:09:47.870 align:middle line:84%
And then, in New York,
there's one utility

00:09:47.870 --> 00:09:50.535 align:middle line:84%
who's saying it should be
covered by both gas and electric

00:09:50.535 --> 00:09:52.910 align:middle line:84%
because the electric customers
are the ones that are most

00:09:52.910 --> 00:09:55.510 align:middle line:90%
benefiting.

00:09:55.510 --> 00:09:57.410 align:middle line:84%
I talked about
allowable cost recovery.

00:09:57.410 --> 00:10:01.790 align:middle line:84%
And then the big is the
avoided cost integration

00:10:01.790 --> 00:10:04.870 align:middle line:84%
into the thermal networks
because what is happening

00:10:04.870 --> 00:10:07.213 align:middle line:84%
is that that benefit
on the electric grid

00:10:07.213 --> 00:10:08.630 align:middle line:84%
means that we're
not going to have

00:10:08.630 --> 00:10:10.870 align:middle line:90%
to build out the electric grid.

00:10:10.870 --> 00:10:14.970 align:middle line:84%
But the costs are on the
network geothermal installer.

00:10:14.970 --> 00:10:17.850 align:middle line:84%
So the benefits and the
costs are not aligned.

00:10:17.850 --> 00:10:20.590 align:middle line:84%
And so we have to figure
out how to do that.

00:10:20.590 --> 00:10:24.030 align:middle line:84%
So that's how the policy and
this thing we're hoping it's

00:10:24.030 --> 00:10:25.870 align:middle line:90%
going to roll out.

00:10:25.870 --> 00:10:28.670 align:middle line:84%
And I just want to say,
remember, only eight states have

00:10:28.670 --> 00:10:29.990 align:middle line:90%
passed legislation.

00:10:29.990 --> 00:10:32.010 align:middle line:84%
But this map looks a
lot better than that,

00:10:32.010 --> 00:10:34.230 align:middle line:84%
which is utilities
across the country

00:10:34.230 --> 00:10:36.830 align:middle line:84%
are really interested
in doing this,

00:10:36.830 --> 00:10:39.470 align:middle line:84%
regardless of whether
legislation has passed or not.

00:10:39.470 --> 00:10:42.490 align:middle line:84%
This is a map of the Utility
Net Geo Collaborative,

00:10:42.490 --> 00:10:47.090 align:middle line:84%
and both blue's are actually
members of that collaborative.

00:10:47.090 --> 00:10:52.630 align:middle line:84%
And they are basically exploring
what this looks like for them.

00:10:52.630 --> 00:10:58.370 align:middle line:84%
And the light blue is states
where at least one utility

00:10:58.370 --> 00:10:59.390 align:middle line:90%
has filed a pilot.

00:10:59.390 --> 00:11:03.010 align:middle line:84%
So far, there's been 22 pilots
filed with the Regulatory

00:11:03.010 --> 00:11:04.330 align:middle line:90%
Commission.

00:11:04.330 --> 00:11:07.450 align:middle line:84%
And then I just also want
to end with this map, which

00:11:07.450 --> 00:11:10.650 align:middle line:84%
I hope you'll all check out,
because you can click on what

00:11:10.650 --> 00:11:12.450 align:middle line:84%
type of owners or
what the status is

00:11:12.450 --> 00:11:14.850 align:middle line:84%
and the type of thermal
networks and just

00:11:14.850 --> 00:11:18.050 align:middle line:84%
see that, actually, we have a
lot of projects in this country

00:11:18.050 --> 00:11:20.290 align:middle line:84%
and that there's huge
opportunity for learning

00:11:20.290 --> 00:11:21.590 align:middle line:90%
across projects.

00:11:21.590 --> 00:11:23.510 align:middle line:90%
And that is everything.

00:11:23.510 --> 00:11:26.560 align:middle line:90%
[APPLAUSE]

00:11:26.560 --> 00:11:40.000 align:middle line:90%