WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.920 align:middle line:84% [SQUEAKING] [RUSTLING] [CLICKING] 00:00:03.920 --> 00:00:11.270 align:middle line:90% 00:00:11.270 --> 00:00:13.495 align:middle line:84% DAVID KAISER: So as I think you know, 00:00:13.495 --> 00:00:14.870 align:middle line:84% today, again, we're going to have 00:00:14.870 --> 00:00:18.673 align:middle line:84% just an informal optional discussion. 00:00:18.673 --> 00:00:19.340 align:middle line:90% You've all come. 00:00:19.340 --> 00:00:21.020 align:middle line:84% So I guess you've exercised your option. 00:00:21.020 --> 00:00:27.890 align:middle line:84% But we'll be talking today in 8225 SJS 042 about some 00:00:27.890 --> 00:00:31.100 align:middle line:84% of the themes raised by that second documentary film that 00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:32.659 align:middle line:84% hopefully you had a chance to watch, 00:00:32.659 --> 00:00:38.000 align:middle line:84% the film called Containment, the film made by Peter Galison 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:42.530 align:middle line:84% and Robb Moss and their team, their whole team. 00:00:42.530 --> 00:00:44.720 align:middle line:84% And like last time, like our discussion 00:00:44.720 --> 00:00:48.030 align:middle line:84% after the film The Day After Trinity, so the floor is open. 00:00:48.030 --> 00:00:53.313 align:middle line:84% So I'm just curious what people make of it. 00:00:53.313 --> 00:00:54.980 align:middle line:84% Let me ask you a more specific question. 00:00:54.980 --> 00:00:57.860 align:middle line:84% Was there anything in the film that surprised you, 00:00:57.860 --> 00:01:01.280 align:middle line:84% that you really didn't expect, or that you hadn't seen, 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:03.200 align:middle line:84% or you knew something about, but this 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:06.410 align:middle line:84% looked at it from a different angle, or something like that? 00:01:06.410 --> 00:01:10.460 align:middle line:90% 00:01:10.460 --> 00:01:12.800 align:middle line:84% You might know, it might not have been so clear. 00:01:12.800 --> 00:01:14.780 align:middle line:90% I can't remember. 00:01:14.780 --> 00:01:17.750 align:middle line:84% Peter and Robb, the filmmakers, were working on this project 00:01:17.750 --> 00:01:22.888 align:middle line:84% before the Fukushima earthquake and reactor meltdown. 00:01:22.888 --> 00:01:24.680 align:middle line:84% They were already immersed in this project. 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:26.720 align:middle line:84% And they were already actively filming. 00:01:26.720 --> 00:01:30.450 align:middle line:84% And then the earthquake in March 2011 occurred. 00:01:30.450 --> 00:01:33.440 align:middle line:84% So in some sense, the film took a turn, 00:01:33.440 --> 00:01:37.400 align:middle line:84% while they were already immersed in it. 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:40.550 align:middle line:84% Considering how squarely the film begins and ends 00:01:40.550 --> 00:01:43.340 align:middle line:84% with a lot of material about very fairly recent developments 00:01:43.340 --> 00:01:48.073 align:middle line:84% in Japan, I was just curious if that shows in your viewing 00:01:48.073 --> 00:01:49.740 align:middle line:84% because the film originally-- of course, 00:01:49.740 --> 00:01:50.610 align:middle line:84% they didn't know that was coming. 00:01:50.610 --> 00:01:52.818 align:middle line:84% They were starting the film, were working on the film 00:01:52.818 --> 00:01:55.920 align:middle line:90% before that even had occurred. 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:57.090 align:middle line:90% Did the film hold together? 00:01:57.090 --> 00:01:58.590 align:middle line:84% Did that seem like it was tacked on? 00:01:58.590 --> 00:02:01.935 align:middle line:84% I'm just curious what people make of this body of material. 00:02:01.935 --> 00:02:08.460 align:middle line:90% 00:02:08.460 --> 00:02:09.050 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:02:09.050 --> 00:02:10.880 align:middle line:90% Let's sit with that. 00:02:10.880 --> 00:02:13.400 align:middle line:84% Peter and Robb already were quite interested 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:15.800 align:middle line:84% in areas that do show up a lot in the film, 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:19.520 align:middle line:84% like the waste storage facilities 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:20.895 align:middle line:84% in the continental United States. 00:02:20.895 --> 00:02:22.520 align:middle line:84% And as many of you might know, there've 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:24.650 align:middle line:84% been long, long longstanding, decades-long debates, 00:02:24.650 --> 00:02:27.960 align:middle line:84% just within the US context, about how, where, 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:32.780 align:middle line:84% or whether to develop a domestic storage facility. 00:02:32.780 --> 00:02:34.670 align:middle line:90% Should it be at Yucca Mountain? 00:02:34.670 --> 00:02:37.790 align:middle line:84% Should it be some other site, the so-called WIPP facility was 00:02:37.790 --> 00:02:40.860 align:middle line:90% already then well under-- 00:02:40.860 --> 00:02:41.760 align:middle line:90% My apologies. 00:02:41.760 --> 00:02:43.660 align:middle line:84% The power went out in my house temporarily. 00:02:43.660 --> 00:02:44.727 align:middle line:90% So here I am. 00:02:44.727 --> 00:02:46.060 align:middle line:90% It's clearly just a little blip. 00:02:46.060 --> 00:02:49.560 align:middle line:90% Anyway, sorry about that. 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:54.560 align:middle line:84% So I have to say, I might be repeating things 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:57.330 align:middle line:84% that I missed when I was offline for a moment. 00:02:57.330 --> 00:03:00.800 align:middle line:84% One of the parts of film that I do find most fascinating 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:05.270 align:middle line:84% are these efforts to get a range of types of specialists 00:03:05.270 --> 00:03:08.690 align:middle line:84% to design some kind of symbol system or communication 00:03:08.690 --> 00:03:14.030 align:middle line:84% system that could plausibly and reliably be legible, be 00:03:14.030 --> 00:03:18.200 align:middle line:84% readable to people hundreds of thousands 00:03:18.200 --> 00:03:21.690 align:middle line:90% of years in the future. 00:03:21.690 --> 00:03:24.193 align:middle line:84% Whether it's archeologists, and linguists, 00:03:24.193 --> 00:03:25.610 align:middle line:84% or other kinds of anthropologists, 00:03:25.610 --> 00:03:28.400 align:middle line:84% or experts in SETI, the Search for Extraterrestrial 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:32.860 align:middle line:84% Intelligence, or sculptors, or all these kinds of range people 00:03:32.860 --> 00:03:36.110 align:middle line:84% to say, how do we make something that will tell people still, 00:03:36.110 --> 00:03:41.480 align:middle line:84% still, still don't dig here because some of these highly 00:03:41.480 --> 00:03:44.930 align:middle line:84% poisonous to humans at least-- highly poisonous radioactive 00:03:44.930 --> 00:03:48.680 align:middle line:84% isotopes have half lives in the tens of thousands-- 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:50.580 align:middle line:84% multiple tens of thousands of years. 00:03:50.580 --> 00:03:53.220 align:middle line:84% And so if you need activity levels to fall by many half 00:03:53.220 --> 00:03:58.020 align:middle line:84% lives worth, you're looking at 300,000 year time horizons 00:03:58.020 --> 00:03:59.160 align:middle line:90% into the future. 00:03:59.160 --> 00:04:00.990 align:middle line:84% And you think about we've had the printing 00:04:00.990 --> 00:04:07.050 align:middle line:84% press since approximately 1450, plus or minus, or 1350 anyway. 00:04:07.050 --> 00:04:09.990 align:middle line:84% We can measure that expanse in a couple thousand 00:04:09.990 --> 00:04:13.180 align:middle line:84% years, not a couple tens of thousands of years. 00:04:13.180 --> 00:04:19.380 align:middle line:84% The latinate alphabet dates to, again, on the order of maybe-- 00:04:19.380 --> 00:04:22.230 align:middle line:84% I don't know-- 5,000 years, something like that. 00:04:22.230 --> 00:04:25.050 align:middle line:84% These are a drop in the bucket time 00:04:25.050 --> 00:04:28.380 align:middle line:84% scale-wise compared to a 300,000 year 00:04:28.380 --> 00:04:30.030 align:middle line:90% projection into the future. 00:04:30.030 --> 00:04:34.800 align:middle line:84% And I found that part of the film really just fascinating. 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:37.380 align:middle line:90% 00:04:37.380 --> 00:04:39.570 align:middle line:84% I think in part of the interview that was also 00:04:39.570 --> 00:04:41.670 align:middle line:84% on the readings for today, an interview 00:04:41.670 --> 00:04:43.950 align:middle line:84% that Peter Galison had done while he 00:04:43.950 --> 00:04:47.730 align:middle line:84% was working on the film, it's part science fiction. 00:04:47.730 --> 00:04:50.250 align:middle line:84% It's an interesting thought experiment just 00:04:50.250 --> 00:04:52.470 align:middle line:84% to imagine a communicative system 00:04:52.470 --> 00:04:57.060 align:middle line:90% for our vastly future selves. 00:04:57.060 --> 00:04:59.220 align:middle line:84% So it's partly science fiction and also 00:04:59.220 --> 00:05:00.630 align:middle line:90% really, deadly serious. 00:05:00.630 --> 00:05:02.940 align:middle line:84% This stuff will still be harmful to humans 00:05:02.940 --> 00:05:10.050 align:middle line:84% and even humanlike creatures, plausibly, in n generations 00:05:10.050 --> 00:05:10.710 align:middle line:90% forward. 00:05:10.710 --> 00:05:12.120 align:middle line:84% So anyway, I found that part of the film-- that's 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:13.560 align:middle line:84% something I didn't know much about before learning 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.643 align:middle line:84% about it from Peter when he's working on the film. 00:05:15.643 --> 00:05:20.340 align:middle line:84% That really stuck with me quite hauntingly. 00:05:20.340 --> 00:05:22.100 align:middle line:84% Any other thoughts on the material? 00:05:22.100 --> 00:05:23.850 align:middle line:84% It doesn't have to be limited to the film. 00:05:23.850 --> 00:05:25.600 align:middle line:84% Other things we talked about in class recently as well, 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:27.180 align:middle line:90% it's totally fair game as well. 00:05:27.180 --> 00:05:32.180 align:middle line:90% 00:05:32.180 --> 00:05:36.220 align:middle line:84% Yes, I worked with a number of students and colleagues 00:05:36.220 --> 00:05:41.020 align:middle line:84% who thought very hard about SETI from an astronomical 00:05:41.020 --> 00:05:43.450 align:middle line:84% point of view, but also as historians or anthropologists 00:05:43.450 --> 00:05:46.930 align:middle line:84% of science studying these communities in present day. 00:05:46.930 --> 00:05:49.390 align:middle line:84% And it does feel like that work is often 00:05:49.390 --> 00:05:51.918 align:middle line:84% a projection of our assumptions about ourselves. 00:05:51.918 --> 00:05:53.210 align:middle line:90% What will the others look like? 00:05:53.210 --> 00:05:56.980 align:middle line:84% Well, we have a range of experience to base that on, 00:05:56.980 --> 00:06:00.610 align:middle line:90% which is what we know about. 00:06:00.610 --> 00:06:06.220 align:middle line:84% And so it does have a similar kind of ambition and yet maybe 00:06:06.220 --> 00:06:11.110 align:middle line:84% limitation from just the horizon of our own imaginations. 00:06:11.110 --> 00:06:13.960 align:middle line:84% And so I think it struck me as totally appropriate, 00:06:13.960 --> 00:06:15.880 align:middle line:84% once I learned of it from, say, Peter 00:06:15.880 --> 00:06:18.880 align:middle line:84% and Robb's film that these department of energy experts 00:06:18.880 --> 00:06:21.790 align:middle line:84% would call on SETI experts because the nature 00:06:21.790 --> 00:06:24.670 align:middle line:84% of the intellectual challenge does seem quite similar. 00:06:24.670 --> 00:06:29.290 align:middle line:84% And at the same time, it also feels exactly as, well, 00:06:29.290 --> 00:06:31.960 align:middle line:84% as big a remaining challenge as it is for anything else 00:06:31.960 --> 00:06:36.138 align:middle line:84% because the SETI folks have are also dealing with what they 00:06:36.138 --> 00:06:37.680 align:middle line:84% know about, what they've experienced, 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:39.347 align:middle line:84% what they can even imagine, the horizons 00:06:39.347 --> 00:06:41.060 align:middle line:90% even of their imaginations. 00:06:41.060 --> 00:06:44.990 align:middle line:84% So in that sense, it does feel like a remarkably similar 00:06:44.990 --> 00:06:45.670 align:middle line:90% exercise. 00:06:45.670 --> 00:06:48.380 align:middle line:90% 00:06:48.380 --> 00:06:50.960 align:middle line:84% I mean, I wrote a little piece about this some years ago, 00:06:50.960 --> 00:06:53.210 align:middle line:84% as many of you might know, as a bit of an aside. 00:06:53.210 --> 00:06:56.295 align:middle line:84% But SETI, a large part of the SETI work 00:06:56.295 --> 00:06:58.670 align:middle line:84% has focused on something called the Drake equation, named 00:06:58.670 --> 00:07:01.760 align:middle line:84% for astronomer Frank Drake back in 1961. 00:07:01.760 --> 00:07:05.510 align:middle line:84% And there was an effort to try to quantify and estimate-- 00:07:05.510 --> 00:07:08.450 align:middle line:84% admittedly, very loose estimates-- how likely 00:07:08.450 --> 00:07:10.130 align:middle line:84% a signal might actually be expected 00:07:10.130 --> 00:07:14.450 align:middle line:84% to be from, say, an intelligent extraterrestrial civilization. 00:07:14.450 --> 00:07:16.610 align:middle line:84% And the last term in this equation 00:07:16.610 --> 00:07:19.477 align:middle line:84% is always the expected lifetime of the civilization 00:07:19.477 --> 00:07:21.560 align:middle line:84% that would have been sending the putative signals. 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:23.660 align:middle line:84% And in the Cold War, in exactly the period 00:07:23.660 --> 00:07:26.570 align:middle line:84% we have our heads in the middle of in this class, 00:07:26.570 --> 00:07:29.270 align:middle line:84% that last term in the Drake equation, capital L, 00:07:29.270 --> 00:07:30.800 align:middle line:90% always was a stand in for-- 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:32.300 align:middle line:84% to those thinking about at the time, 00:07:32.300 --> 00:07:35.000 align:middle line:90% for all out nuclear Holocaust. 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:39.200 align:middle line:84% So it wasn't that there was a biological lifespan. 00:07:39.200 --> 00:07:41.473 align:middle line:84% They thought it was, did the civilization 00:07:41.473 --> 00:07:43.640 align:middle line:84% blow itself to bits the way it seemed to many people 00:07:43.640 --> 00:07:45.932 align:middle line:84% at the time that maybe people on Earth were about to do 00:07:45.932 --> 00:07:47.040 align:middle line:90% or were poised to do? 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:50.580 align:middle line:84% So there's actually a high nuclear component 00:07:50.580 --> 00:07:51.990 align:middle line:90% even to SETI as well. 00:07:51.990 --> 00:07:53.760 align:middle line:84% The community had already been thinking 00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:58.175 align:middle line:84% about a kind of knife edge of survival in a nuclear age, 00:07:58.175 --> 00:08:00.340 align:middle line:84% at least what they consider to be a knife edge. 00:08:00.340 --> 00:08:02.340 align:middle line:84% At the same time, there have been all these kind 00:08:02.340 --> 00:08:05.340 align:middle line:84% of technological spinoffs for certain kinds 00:08:05.340 --> 00:08:10.110 align:middle line:84% of multichannel analyzers and other technological fancy 00:08:10.110 --> 00:08:13.650 align:middle line:84% electronics and code that was developed first for SETI. 00:08:13.650 --> 00:08:16.890 align:middle line:84% How do you sift through millions of channels at once, millions 00:08:16.890 --> 00:08:18.180 align:middle line:90% of frequency bands, say? 00:08:18.180 --> 00:08:19.687 align:middle line:84% And some of those were brought back, 00:08:19.687 --> 00:08:22.020 align:middle line:84% so to speak, behind the fence into certain kinds of very 00:08:22.020 --> 00:08:24.210 align:middle line:84% sophisticated nuclear testing, especially 00:08:24.210 --> 00:08:27.990 align:middle line:84% after the ban on actual test blasts 00:08:27.990 --> 00:08:31.620 align:middle line:84% in this era of what's now called stockpile stewardship. 00:08:31.620 --> 00:08:34.830 align:middle line:84% So SETI seems like it's always about the faraway, the distant, 00:08:34.830 --> 00:08:39.990 align:middle line:84% the literally extragalactic or certainly extraterrestrial. 00:08:39.990 --> 00:08:43.049 align:middle line:84% And yet, its own history has been grounded and intertwined 00:08:43.049 --> 00:08:47.670 align:middle line:84% with the Cold War nuclear age from its own beginning. 00:08:47.670 --> 00:08:49.050 align:middle line:84% So maybe all the more appropriate 00:08:49.050 --> 00:08:51.480 align:middle line:84% then that some SETI experts, as well as linguists, 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:54.463 align:middle line:84% and philosophers, and sculptors would 00:08:54.463 --> 00:08:56.130 align:middle line:84% be working with the Department of Energy 00:08:56.130 --> 00:09:28.080 align:middle line:84% to think about symbol systems for 300,000 years hence. 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:32.580 align:middle line:84% Were there parts of the WIPP facility-- 00:09:32.580 --> 00:09:34.235 align:middle line:90% what was it called? 00:09:34.235 --> 00:09:35.860 align:middle line:84% I can't remember what WIPP stands for-- 00:09:35.860 --> 00:09:39.820 align:middle line:84% Waste Injection Pilot Project, something like that. 00:09:39.820 --> 00:09:43.140 align:middle line:90% 00:09:43.140 --> 00:09:45.118 align:middle line:90% That's a great question, Alex. 00:09:45.118 --> 00:09:46.410 align:middle line:90% I don't remember the specifics. 00:09:46.410 --> 00:09:47.410 align:middle line:90% Thank you for asking it. 00:09:47.410 --> 00:09:49.490 align:middle line:84% So I think, in general, it's smaller. 00:09:49.490 --> 00:09:52.670 align:middle line:84% I think the ideas for Yucca Mountain 00:09:52.670 --> 00:09:56.450 align:middle line:90% were ultimately much more grand. 00:09:56.450 --> 00:09:59.700 align:middle line:84% It would have had a much higher storage capacity, for example. 00:09:59.700 --> 00:10:01.970 align:middle line:84% At least, it never got past kind of design specs. 00:10:01.970 --> 00:10:05.192 align:middle line:84% But that was the ambition for Yucca Mountain, 00:10:05.192 --> 00:10:07.400 align:middle line:84% was it really was supposed to be like a one-stop-shop 00:10:07.400 --> 00:10:08.490 align:middle line:90% and we solved it. 00:10:08.490 --> 00:10:08.990 align:middle line:90% That's it. 00:10:08.990 --> 00:10:12.120 align:middle line:84% We have enough capacity for the indefinite future. 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:14.960 align:middle line:84% And I don't think anyone at WIPP ever thought that. 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:19.610 align:middle line:84% I think WIPP was always seen as a proof of principle center. 00:10:19.610 --> 00:10:22.130 align:middle line:84% And Ilona helpfully reminds us what WIPP stands for-- thank 00:10:22.130 --> 00:10:22.630 align:middle line:90% you, Ilona-- 00:10:22.630 --> 00:10:24.350 align:middle line:90% Waste Isolation Pilot Plant. 00:10:24.350 --> 00:10:24.980 align:middle line:90% OK, good. 00:10:24.980 --> 00:10:25.700 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 00:10:25.700 --> 00:10:32.588 align:middle line:84% So WIPP, I think, was built to be, as its name even implies, 00:10:32.588 --> 00:10:34.130 align:middle line:84% a kind of pilot project for something 00:10:34.130 --> 00:10:36.422 align:middle line:84% that could potentially later be scaled up. 00:10:36.422 --> 00:10:37.880 align:middle line:84% And then as it turns out, there are 00:10:37.880 --> 00:10:42.687 align:middle line:84% some real technical challenges even with the pilot design. 00:10:42.687 --> 00:10:44.270 align:middle line:84% That's why they build pilots, I guess. 00:10:44.270 --> 00:10:46.937 align:middle line:84% You find out what might not work the way you think it would just 00:10:46.937 --> 00:10:48.662 align:middle line:90% from the engineering specs. 00:10:48.662 --> 00:10:50.870 align:middle line:84% But I think, in general, the plans for Yucca Mountain 00:10:50.870 --> 00:10:54.380 align:middle line:84% were to be forever, like we've solved it, 00:10:54.380 --> 00:10:55.790 align:middle line:90% was the ambition or the hope. 00:10:55.790 --> 00:10:59.000 align:middle line:84% There would be the one place with enough capacity, 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:01.700 align:middle line:84% with presumed geological stability, 00:11:01.700 --> 00:11:04.550 align:middle line:84% that can be estimated-- again, in the hundreds of thousands 00:11:04.550 --> 00:11:05.217 align:middle line:90% of years frame-- 00:11:05.217 --> 00:11:07.425 align:middle line:84% I don't know how one could ever have that confidence. 00:11:07.425 --> 00:11:09.920 align:middle line:84% But that was at least something people were thinking about, 00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:12.950 align:middle line:84% and that it would be the one site needed at least 00:11:12.950 --> 00:11:14.600 align:middle line:90% for the domestic United-- 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:18.050 align:middle line:84% continental United States, maybe even for worldwide. 00:11:18.050 --> 00:11:20.762 align:middle line:84% And I think that certainly has not yet come to be, 00:11:20.762 --> 00:11:21.470 align:middle line:90% to put it mildly. 00:11:21.470 --> 00:11:25.622 align:middle line:90% 00:11:25.622 --> 00:11:27.830 align:middle line:84% And there's that, I think, really interesting footage 00:11:27.830 --> 00:11:30.440 align:middle line:84% in the film about some of the local town hall 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.290 align:middle line:84% meetings in and around where the WIPP facility I think 00:11:33.290 --> 00:11:35.630 align:middle line:90% was ultimately made. 00:11:35.630 --> 00:11:39.565 align:middle line:84% Well, you can see there's a robust range of opinions. 00:11:39.565 --> 00:11:41.690 align:middle line:84% Is it good for the local economy in the short term? 00:11:41.690 --> 00:11:46.760 align:middle line:84% Does it make good, secure, well-paying jobs? 00:11:46.760 --> 00:11:48.440 align:middle line:84% Does it improve the local tax base? 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:51.560 align:middle line:84% Those kinds of arguments and other concerns 00:11:51.560 --> 00:11:54.540 align:middle line:84% that are raised about is that a worthwhile trade-off. 00:11:54.540 --> 00:12:01.310 align:middle line:84% And that's just for, again, this pilot facility in one area. 00:12:01.310 --> 00:12:03.410 align:middle line:84% It is a fascinating question if you 00:12:03.410 --> 00:12:07.400 align:middle line:84% get to-- participatory democracy for the here 00:12:07.400 --> 00:12:09.080 align:middle line:90% and now is already really hard. 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:11.618 align:middle line:84% I think, again, we're getting reminded of it every day. 00:12:11.618 --> 00:12:13.910 align:middle line:84% Now, imagine this when you're trying to make decisions, 00:12:13.910 --> 00:12:15.285 align:middle line:84% I think as you're saying, they'll 00:12:15.285 --> 00:12:19.730 align:middle line:84% have implications for generations to come. 00:12:19.730 --> 00:12:22.520 align:middle line:90% Who has say on behalf of them? 00:12:22.520 --> 00:12:26.960 align:middle line:84% How do you even incorporate that, let alone the next five 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:28.010 align:middle line:90% year or 10 year plan? 00:12:28.010 --> 00:12:31.910 align:middle line:84% Will this be better or worse for the local community? 00:12:31.910 --> 00:12:36.170 align:middle line:90% 00:12:36.170 --> 00:12:37.610 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:12:37.610 --> 00:12:39.267 align:middle line:84% Yeah, and again, that's something much 00:12:39.267 --> 00:12:40.100 align:middle line:90% like with Fukushima. 00:12:40.100 --> 00:12:42.530 align:middle line:84% Obviously, the filmmakers were immersed in the project 00:12:42.530 --> 00:12:44.250 align:middle line:90% long before that had occurred. 00:12:44.250 --> 00:12:46.280 align:middle line:84% So the film was itself a kind of moving-- 00:12:46.280 --> 00:12:47.900 align:middle line:84% not a moving target, but the film 00:12:47.900 --> 00:12:50.300 align:middle line:84% evolved more over the course of its making 00:12:50.300 --> 00:12:53.240 align:middle line:84% than I think films otherwise often do. 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:55.418 align:middle line:84% And again, it was a genuine surprise-- surprise 00:12:55.418 --> 00:12:56.960 align:middle line:84% to filmmakers, a surprise, of course, 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.800 align:middle line:84% to many of the operators in the locals. 00:13:00.800 --> 00:13:03.380 align:middle line:84% And again, one could say, well, that's why you do small scale 00:13:03.380 --> 00:13:04.660 align:middle line:90% engineering pilot projects. 00:13:04.660 --> 00:13:06.410 align:middle line:84% You want to learn from these and hopefully 00:13:06.410 --> 00:13:07.327 align:middle line:90% get better and better. 00:13:07.327 --> 00:13:09.980 align:middle line:90% And maybe it'll scale. 00:13:09.980 --> 00:13:12.410 align:middle line:84% It raises some extraordinarily difficult questions. 00:13:12.410 --> 00:13:15.110 align:middle line:84% If, as you say on a kind of decade-long , 00:13:15.110 --> 00:13:16.730 align:middle line:90% time scale let alone 10-- 00:13:16.730 --> 00:13:18.110 align:middle line:90% 10 to the power of 1-- 00:13:18.110 --> 00:13:21.530 align:middle line:84% 10 to the 1 years, as opposed to 10 to the 5 years. 00:13:21.530 --> 00:13:23.030 align:middle line:90% That's a big change. 00:13:23.030 --> 00:13:26.630 align:middle line:84% Can we get 10 to the 1 years done or even a century 00:13:26.630 --> 00:13:30.170 align:middle line:90% let alone 100,000 years? 00:13:30.170 --> 00:13:32.970 align:middle line:84% So yeah, I was surprised by that, too. 00:13:32.970 --> 00:13:33.470 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:13:33.470 --> 00:13:41.850 align:middle line:90% 00:13:41.850 --> 00:13:44.160 align:middle line:90% What about some of the scenes-- 00:13:44.160 --> 00:13:46.170 align:middle line:84% some of this was new for me as well, 00:13:46.170 --> 00:13:50.040 align:middle line:84% some of the scenes within active reactors, 00:13:50.040 --> 00:13:51.990 align:middle line:84% just the scenes of the kind of machinery 00:13:51.990 --> 00:13:53.460 align:middle line:84% of what it's like for humans to be 00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:57.730 align:middle line:84% interacting with these very hot materials, hot in many ways. 00:13:57.730 --> 00:14:00.990 align:middle line:84% I don't think I'd ever seen moving picture of that myself, 00:14:00.990 --> 00:14:04.680 align:middle line:84% before seeing the film, just even in a reactor site that's 00:14:04.680 --> 00:14:06.930 align:middle line:84% operating perfectly appropriately, perfectly 00:14:06.930 --> 00:14:07.920 align:middle line:90% canonically. 00:14:07.920 --> 00:14:11.260 align:middle line:84% Just how do you deal with these spent fuel rods 00:14:11.260 --> 00:14:12.510 align:middle line:90% and all these kinds of things? 00:14:12.510 --> 00:14:14.760 align:middle line:84% Just getting a visual of that and the scale 00:14:14.760 --> 00:14:17.820 align:middle line:84% of it, what it's like with all the benefits 00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:20.460 align:middle line:84% of our own present day high technology, let alone 00:14:20.460 --> 00:14:24.210 align:middle line:84% when people were doing this back in the '40s and '50s, 00:14:24.210 --> 00:14:27.120 align:middle line:84% I found that really actually pretty riveting too, 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:29.310 align:middle line:84% just visually, viscerally, what's 00:14:29.310 --> 00:14:31.950 align:middle line:84% it like to be working in a site like that when things are going 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:34.470 align:middle line:84% right, when things are going perfectly as the engineers 00:14:34.470 --> 00:14:36.750 align:middle line:90% and scientists had hoped. 00:14:36.750 --> 00:14:40.800 align:middle line:90% 00:14:40.800 --> 00:14:41.600 align:middle line:90% I don't know, Alex. 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:42.600 align:middle line:90% That's a great question. 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:44.600 align:middle line:84% I don't know if anyone else on the conversation 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:45.380 align:middle line:90% knows about that. 00:14:45.380 --> 00:14:47.422 align:middle line:84% I bet we could find out with some quick googling, 00:14:47.422 --> 00:14:49.160 align:middle line:90% but I don't know offhand. 00:14:49.160 --> 00:14:49.660 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:14:49.660 --> 00:14:55.040 align:middle line:90% 00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:59.060 align:middle line:84% As you may know, there was a time in the-- 00:14:59.060 --> 00:15:01.092 align:middle line:84% starting in the late 1940s, the early years 00:15:01.092 --> 00:15:03.050 align:middle line:84% after the Second World War, really accelerating 00:15:03.050 --> 00:15:07.160 align:middle line:84% throughout the '50s, when many, many very small scale research 00:15:07.160 --> 00:15:09.980 align:middle line:84% reactors were built on university campuses 00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:11.420 align:middle line:90% across the country. 00:15:11.420 --> 00:15:13.490 align:middle line:90% MIT was, in that sense-- 00:15:13.490 --> 00:15:15.470 align:middle line:84% MIT's is unusual for having survived 00:15:15.470 --> 00:15:18.200 align:middle line:84% so long, not for having been built when it was. 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:20.270 align:middle line:84% And so I don't know what the longest-- 00:15:20.270 --> 00:15:23.390 align:middle line:84% what the larger original plan was 00:15:23.390 --> 00:15:27.410 align:middle line:84% for collection and containment of these unavoidable waste 00:15:27.410 --> 00:15:28.220 align:middle line:90% products. 00:15:28.220 --> 00:15:30.620 align:middle line:84% The Atomic Energy Commission, the successor 00:15:30.620 --> 00:15:35.810 align:middle line:84% to the wartime Manhattan Project really had a very, very-- 00:15:35.810 --> 00:15:37.850 align:middle line:84% at the time, it seemed a very generous program 00:15:37.850 --> 00:15:40.550 align:middle line:84% to build these facilities, small scale facilities, 00:15:40.550 --> 00:15:44.545 align:middle line:84% I mean, just by the dozens and dozens across liberal arts 00:15:44.545 --> 00:15:46.670 align:middle line:84% campuses, big research universities, and everything 00:15:46.670 --> 00:15:47.610 align:middle line:90% in between. 00:15:47.610 --> 00:15:50.762 align:middle line:84% And so I don't know what the plans were for that larger 00:15:50.762 --> 00:15:52.220 align:middle line:84% collection of stuff, let alone what 00:15:52.220 --> 00:15:54.077 align:middle line:90% we've been doing very locally. 00:15:54.077 --> 00:15:56.410 align:middle line:84% Lucas, it looked like you were about to jump in as well. 00:15:56.410 --> 00:15:57.368 align:middle line:90% I cut you off, I think. 00:15:57.368 --> 00:16:02.298 align:middle line:90% 00:16:02.298 --> 00:16:03.840 align:middle line:84% Yeah, especially-- I mean, by now, it 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:05.070 align:middle line:90% fades into the background. 00:16:05.070 --> 00:16:06.720 align:middle line:90% We've all been used to-- 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.970 align:middle line:84% the basic knowledge has been there seemingly forever, 00:16:08.970 --> 00:16:12.900 align:middle line:90% at least for generations by now. 00:16:12.900 --> 00:16:16.140 align:middle line:84% Many of the folks-- the GAs certainly won't remember this. 00:16:16.140 --> 00:16:19.470 align:middle line:84% One time when Cambridge residents did 00:16:19.470 --> 00:16:22.050 align:middle line:84% have a reason to recognize these things was not 00:16:22.050 --> 00:16:24.300 align:middle line:84% an accident at the MIT reactor thankfully, 00:16:24.300 --> 00:16:27.790 align:middle line:84% but what had been a particle accelerator closer to Harvard's 00:16:27.790 --> 00:16:29.790 align:middle line:84% campus, actually really contiguous with Harvard. 00:16:29.790 --> 00:16:33.000 align:middle line:84% It was, at the time, called the Cambridge Electron Accelerator, 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:33.990 align:middle line:90% or the CEA. 00:16:33.990 --> 00:16:35.310 align:middle line:90% And also, one of the things-- 00:16:35.310 --> 00:16:37.320 align:middle line:90% MIT also had one. 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:39.210 align:middle line:84% The Atomic Energy Commission had also 00:16:39.210 --> 00:16:42.300 align:middle line:84% subsidized the construction of dozens and dozens of research 00:16:42.300 --> 00:16:44.190 align:middle line:84% accelerators, so particle accelerators, not 00:16:44.190 --> 00:16:45.780 align:middle line:90% just reactors. 00:16:45.780 --> 00:16:49.020 align:middle line:84% And the one in Cambridge and closer to Harvard 00:16:49.020 --> 00:16:50.340 align:middle line:90% was one of that set. 00:16:50.340 --> 00:16:54.640 align:middle line:84% And in-- I think it was 1965 or '66, mid '60s, 00:16:54.640 --> 00:16:56.820 align:middle line:84% there was an explosion that actually killed 00:16:56.820 --> 00:16:58.740 align:middle line:84% a graduate student, did an enormous amount 00:16:58.740 --> 00:17:02.860 align:middle line:84% of damage, property damage, as well as a loss of life 00:17:02.860 --> 00:17:05.470 align:middle line:90% from the accelerator. 00:17:05.470 --> 00:17:10.900 align:middle line:84% So basically, at the time, a lot of the detectors 00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:13.180 align:middle line:90% required cryogenic cooling. 00:17:13.180 --> 00:17:14.800 align:middle line:84% You keep these things really cold. 00:17:14.800 --> 00:17:17.470 align:middle line:84% And that often required lots of volatile gases 00:17:17.470 --> 00:17:21.498 align:middle line:84% under pressure, these so-called bubble chambers. 00:17:21.498 --> 00:17:24.040 align:middle line:84% And I believe it was a case of-- others on the call, Tiffany, 00:17:24.040 --> 00:17:26.405 align:middle line:84% or Julie, or others might remember better-- 00:17:26.405 --> 00:17:29.030 align:middle line:84% Peter Galison had written about this in one of his older books. 00:17:29.030 --> 00:17:31.780 align:middle line:84% So I think what happened with the CEA explosion was 00:17:31.780 --> 00:17:35.170 align:middle line:84% I think it was part of the cryogenic system that blew. 00:17:35.170 --> 00:17:38.110 align:middle line:84% It blew the roof off this factory-sized building. 00:17:38.110 --> 00:17:39.883 align:middle line:84% I think at least one graduate student 00:17:39.883 --> 00:17:41.050 align:middle line:90% was killed in the explosion. 00:17:41.050 --> 00:17:42.070 align:middle line:90% I think only one loss-- 00:17:42.070 --> 00:17:44.110 align:middle line:90% one person killed. 00:17:44.110 --> 00:17:46.840 align:middle line:84% But that's a wake-up call to the neighborhood in a big way. 00:17:46.840 --> 00:17:49.720 align:middle line:84% Wait, what that little, quiet, sleepy, factory-looking, 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:52.390 align:middle line:84% nondescript building practically contiguous 00:17:52.390 --> 00:17:54.580 align:middle line:84% with Harvard's campus, they're doing with 00:17:54.580 --> 00:17:55.600 align:middle line:90% what volatile materials? 00:17:55.600 --> 00:17:56.600 align:middle line:90% It could really do what? 00:17:56.600 --> 00:17:58.360 align:middle line:84% So there's certainly been moments 00:17:58.360 --> 00:18:01.030 align:middle line:84% in Cambridge's own-- in our own Cambridge History, 00:18:01.030 --> 00:18:05.680 align:middle line:84% going back not super long ago, going back 60, 00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:10.240 align:middle line:84% not quite 55 years or so, where things where accidents happen, 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:10.870 align:middle line:90% right? 00:18:10.870 --> 00:18:14.080 align:middle line:84% All these things are built-- designed and built by humans. 00:18:14.080 --> 00:18:16.120 align:middle line:84% None of us, it turns out, is perfect. 00:18:16.120 --> 00:18:19.870 align:middle line:84% And when you build lots and lots of these things 00:18:19.870 --> 00:18:24.220 align:middle line:84% sometimes in pretty dense, quasi-urban settings, 00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:26.013 align:middle line:90% that can be a bad recipe. 00:18:26.013 --> 00:18:28.180 align:middle line:84% That was nothing like the enormous accelerators that 00:18:28.180 --> 00:18:30.467 align:middle line:84% were built with much more careful shielding, and site 00:18:30.467 --> 00:18:32.050 align:middle line:84% selection, and all that kind of stuff. 00:18:32.050 --> 00:18:34.750 align:middle line:84% It wasn't like it was Fermilab or the Stanford Accelerator, 00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:36.340 align:middle line:84% which was pushed far away from campus. 00:18:36.340 --> 00:18:42.840 align:middle line:84% This one was really right near highly populated parts 00:18:42.840 --> 00:18:43.382 align:middle line:90% of Cambridge. 00:18:43.382 --> 00:18:45.215 align:middle line:84% So things like that certainly have happened. 00:18:45.215 --> 00:18:46.260 align:middle line:90% Luckily, that did not-- 00:18:46.260 --> 00:18:48.755 align:middle line:84% I don't think there was a concern about radioactive waste 00:18:48.755 --> 00:18:49.630 align:middle line:90% being spread by that. 00:18:49.630 --> 00:18:53.850 align:middle line:84% I think that was a volatile set of chemicals that exploded. 00:18:53.850 --> 00:18:56.400 align:middle line:84% And the damage was immediate, but not 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.190 align:middle line:84% showering immediate land with isotopes 00:18:59.190 --> 00:19:02.190 align:middle line:84% that would be here for another-- through the next Ice Age. 00:19:02.190 --> 00:19:04.320 align:middle line:84% So in that sense, it's not like a reactor meltdown. 00:19:04.320 --> 00:19:09.400 align:middle line:84% But still, dangerous stuff that really, 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:11.450 align:middle line:84% every now and then unfortunately, 00:19:11.450 --> 00:19:13.270 align:middle line:90% doesn't operate as designed. 00:19:13.270 --> 00:19:17.040 align:middle line:90% 00:19:17.040 --> 00:19:18.750 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:19:18.750 --> 00:19:20.340 align:middle line:84% And is that a different kind of-- 00:19:20.340 --> 00:19:24.900 align:middle line:84% is the threat different today in a Google Earth, 00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:27.150 align:middle line:84% everything's in principle under some kind of camera 00:19:27.150 --> 00:19:29.790 align:middle line:84% surveillance, anyone can map anything anywhere in principle? 00:19:29.790 --> 00:19:32.310 align:middle line:84% Is that different than when it took work 00:19:32.310 --> 00:19:34.890 align:middle line:84% to identify where these things even were? 00:19:34.890 --> 00:19:38.640 align:middle line:84% No one had automatic GPS coordinates downloadable. 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.400 align:middle line:84% So I do think I think the nature of that challenge 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.458 align:middle line:84% has changed in the last, let's say, 20 years as well. 00:19:45.458 --> 00:19:48.000 align:middle line:84% Tiffany, you mentioned in the chat about Lake Anna, Virginia. 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:49.000 align:middle line:84% I actually don't know about that one. 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.333 align:middle line:90% Do you want to tell us about it? 00:19:50.333 --> 00:19:56.270 align:middle line:90% 00:19:56.270 --> 00:19:57.740 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I didn't realize-- 00:19:57.740 --> 00:19:59.345 align:middle line:84% I've never been to the WIPP facility. 00:19:59.345 --> 00:20:01.970 align:middle line:84% A number of colleagues from MIT have been because, again as you 00:20:01.970 --> 00:20:04.850 align:middle line:84% may know-- and maybe they mentioned it in the film-- 00:20:04.850 --> 00:20:08.397 align:middle line:84% that was a site for a bunch of underground fundamental physics 00:20:08.397 --> 00:20:09.230 align:middle line:90% experiments as well. 00:20:09.230 --> 00:20:10.910 align:middle line:84% You want to be shield it from cosmic rays. 00:20:10.910 --> 00:20:13.035 align:middle line:84% And lots and lots of physics experiments-- and this 00:20:13.035 --> 00:20:14.900 align:middle line:90% is Julia's mind very directly. 00:20:14.900 --> 00:20:17.870 align:middle line:84% But for generations, lots of fundamental physics experiments 00:20:17.870 --> 00:20:20.582 align:middle line:84% have been in abandoned or no longer used mines 00:20:20.582 --> 00:20:22.040 align:middle line:84% because you want to get underground 00:20:22.040 --> 00:20:23.760 align:middle line:90% for various shielding reasons. 00:20:23.760 --> 00:20:27.380 align:middle line:84% So I have several colleagues who had been at WIPP regularly 00:20:27.380 --> 00:20:30.230 align:middle line:84% for neutrino experiments or other kinds of particle physics 00:20:30.230 --> 00:20:31.143 align:middle line:90% things. 00:20:31.143 --> 00:20:32.060 align:middle line:90% So they've been there. 00:20:32.060 --> 00:20:33.685 align:middle line:84% I've never been there, let alone driven 00:20:33.685 --> 00:20:35.210 align:middle line:90% past it going to or from Vegas. 00:20:35.210 --> 00:20:37.760 align:middle line:84% But Tiffany, your comment also reminds me of something 00:20:37.760 --> 00:20:40.130 align:middle line:84% I didn't have a chance to really linger on 00:20:40.130 --> 00:20:42.590 align:middle line:90% in the class material. 00:20:42.590 --> 00:20:48.920 align:middle line:84% But for many years, when nuclear weapons tests were still 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.070 align:middle line:84% above ground, before they went underground 00:20:52.070 --> 00:20:55.040 align:middle line:84% with the limited test ban treaty in the early '60s, 00:20:55.040 --> 00:20:58.040 align:middle line:84% these things were often pegged as tourist attractions. 00:20:58.040 --> 00:21:01.250 align:middle line:84% So obviously not to get too close to them, but in Vegas 00:21:01.250 --> 00:21:03.620 align:middle line:84% in particular, it was within sight lines 00:21:03.620 --> 00:21:06.980 align:middle line:84% of one of the continental testing grounds. 00:21:06.980 --> 00:21:09.410 align:middle line:84% And so the casinos and the hotels 00:21:09.410 --> 00:21:11.480 align:middle line:90% would actually sell advertising. 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:14.720 align:middle line:84% Come this weekend because you'll get to see an explosion off 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:15.380 align:middle line:90% on the horizon. 00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:17.660 align:middle line:90% It won't be in your hotel room. 00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:23.960 align:middle line:84% But you could have a clear view of this temporary display 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:24.800 align:middle line:90% out the window. 00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:27.650 align:middle line:84% It was seen as not just something 00:21:27.650 --> 00:21:29.750 align:middle line:84% to be tolerated or otherwise based 00:21:29.750 --> 00:21:33.370 align:middle line:84% on what seemed like Cold War realities, but really-- 00:21:33.370 --> 00:21:35.260 align:middle line:84% I don't know if we'd say celebrated, but seen 00:21:35.260 --> 00:21:38.110 align:middle line:84% as a tourist attraction, something that 00:21:38.110 --> 00:21:42.370 align:middle line:84% would help you sell hotel rooms and come to Vegas this weekend 00:21:42.370 --> 00:21:44.120 align:middle line:90% kind of thing. 00:21:44.120 --> 00:21:45.320 align:middle line:90% I just find that chilling. 00:21:45.320 --> 00:21:48.580 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's just astonishing, the way-- 00:21:48.580 --> 00:21:50.920 align:middle line:84% in this case, the weapons not even reactors, weapons, 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:55.645 align:middle line:90% were seen in popular culture. 00:21:55.645 --> 00:21:57.520 align:middle line:84% So again, coming back maybe to Lucas's point, 00:21:57.520 --> 00:21:59.562 align:middle line:84% it's not only were they not trying to keep secret 00:21:59.562 --> 00:22:01.300 align:middle line:84% when the blast would be-- you think well, 00:22:01.300 --> 00:22:03.970 align:middle line:84% are you worried about any kind of bad actors 00:22:03.970 --> 00:22:05.668 align:middle line:90% messing around with these nukes? 00:22:05.668 --> 00:22:07.960 align:middle line:84% Not only did they worry about keeping the date and time 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:09.850 align:middle line:84% secret, they were actually advertising it 00:22:09.850 --> 00:22:13.210 align:middle line:84% as if they could almost sell tickets. 00:22:13.210 --> 00:22:16.090 align:middle line:84% Again, just our attitudes toward these things 00:22:16.090 --> 00:22:19.360 align:middle line:84% over the last 50 or 60 years, I just find that stunning. 00:22:19.360 --> 00:22:25.060 align:middle line:90% 00:22:25.060 --> 00:22:25.600 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:22:25.600 --> 00:22:27.693 align:middle line:84% I mean, maybe as you're saying, there is-- 00:22:27.693 --> 00:22:29.110 align:middle line:84% I don't if we call it flourishing. 00:22:29.110 --> 00:22:33.543 align:middle line:84% But there is an actual nuclear tourism-- 00:22:33.543 --> 00:22:34.960 align:middle line:84% oh, maybe we can call it industry. 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.900 align:middle line:84% One of my colleagues wrote a book, a very interesting book 00:22:37.900 --> 00:22:42.040 align:middle line:84% a few years ago called The Nuclear Family Vacation, which 00:22:42.040 --> 00:22:42.932 align:middle line:90% is a pretty fun pun. 00:22:42.932 --> 00:22:44.390 align:middle line:84% She and her husband went traveling. 00:22:44.390 --> 00:22:47.200 align:middle line:84% So it was like a nuclear family that also went to all these 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.720 align:middle line:84% nuclear family vacation-- they went to visit nuclear sites 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:51.610 align:middle line:84% actually around the world, including-- 00:22:51.610 --> 00:22:52.930 align:middle line:84% I can't remember they went to the Chernobyl site. 00:22:52.930 --> 00:22:54.513 align:middle line:84% But they certainly went to many places 00:22:54.513 --> 00:22:57.580 align:middle line:84% in the former Soviet Union, as well as, I think, 00:22:57.580 --> 00:23:02.153 align:middle line:84% Eastern Europe and throughout the United States. 00:23:02.153 --> 00:23:04.570 align:middle line:84% She wrote-- I can't remember if they co-wrote it together. 00:23:04.570 --> 00:23:06.940 align:middle line:84% They're both journalists, excellent writers. 00:23:06.940 --> 00:23:09.070 align:middle line:84% Anyway, just saying, how many of these sites 00:23:09.070 --> 00:23:10.660 align:middle line:90% are accessible in general? 00:23:10.660 --> 00:23:12.850 align:middle line:84% And what's the appeal to go to them? 00:23:12.850 --> 00:23:14.392 align:middle line:84% You want to go see, collect them all. 00:23:14.392 --> 00:23:16.767 align:middle line:84% I've seen this one, and this one, and this one, this one, 00:23:16.767 --> 00:23:19.990 align:middle line:84% like other families might try to go to all the national parks 00:23:19.990 --> 00:23:21.835 align:middle line:84% and in some region of the country. 00:23:21.835 --> 00:23:23.710 align:middle line:84% They were going to tick off all of these kind 00:23:23.710 --> 00:23:29.815 align:middle line:84% of nuclear-related sites as a kind of tourism. 00:23:29.815 --> 00:23:36.350 align:middle line:90% 00:23:36.350 --> 00:23:38.480 align:middle line:90% Yeah, thank you. 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:39.230 align:middle line:90% I agree, Deborah. 00:23:39.230 --> 00:23:42.230 align:middle line:84% I find that very hard to watch myself. 00:23:42.230 --> 00:23:47.540 align:middle line:84% I'm not an expert at all in the present day biomedical hazards 00:23:47.540 --> 00:23:50.900 align:middle line:84% and what precautions are actually being taken. 00:23:50.900 --> 00:23:51.840 align:middle line:90% So I don't know. 00:23:51.840 --> 00:23:54.500 align:middle line:84% But I think I mentioned briefly in a previous discussion, 00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:58.400 align:middle line:84% I know that there was a very cavalier attitude 00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:00.800 align:middle line:84% toward these things during the Second World War 00:24:00.800 --> 00:24:02.570 align:middle line:84% and in the early years afterwards. 00:24:02.570 --> 00:24:07.520 align:middle line:84% And often, the cavalierness was not telling workers enough 00:24:07.520 --> 00:24:10.010 align:middle line:84% to inform them of risks that actually were otherwise 00:24:10.010 --> 00:24:12.830 align:middle line:84% well-known by other experts, let alone the experts 00:24:12.830 --> 00:24:19.200 align:middle line:84% decided to take their own risks or to behave certain ways. 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:24.680 align:middle line:84% And so I don't know what the current training 00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:25.620 align:middle line:90% is like and so on. 00:24:25.620 --> 00:24:29.330 align:middle line:84% But 3.6 ranking is not great, not terrible. 00:24:29.330 --> 00:24:32.210 align:middle line:84% I don't remember what kind of exposure 00:24:32.210 --> 00:24:34.290 align:middle line:90% would amount to 3.6 rankings. 00:24:34.290 --> 00:24:36.440 align:middle line:84% I don't remember the scales, what to expect. 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:38.150 align:middle line:90% Do you do you remember? 00:24:38.150 --> 00:24:39.110 align:middle line:90% We can look it up. 00:24:39.110 --> 00:24:41.700 align:middle line:90% 00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:42.550 align:middle line:90% Right, thank you. 00:24:42.550 --> 00:24:43.950 align:middle line:90% I'd missed the reference. 00:24:43.950 --> 00:24:45.265 align:middle line:90% Very good, yeah. 00:24:45.265 --> 00:24:45.765 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:24:45.765 --> 00:24:50.920 align:middle line:90% 00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:52.080 align:middle line:90% I agree as well. 00:24:52.080 --> 00:24:54.650 align:middle line:84% While we're at it, let's hawk all of Kate's books. 00:24:54.650 --> 00:24:55.780 align:middle line:90% She's my colleague. 00:24:55.780 --> 00:24:58.501 align:middle line:90% Kate's most recent book-- 00:24:58.501 --> 00:25:01.510 align:middle line:90% oh, shoot, what's the title? 00:25:01.510 --> 00:25:04.120 align:middle line:84% And that just came out roughly a year ago. 00:25:04.120 --> 00:25:06.580 align:middle line:84% There was a collection of Chernobyl-related books 00:25:06.580 --> 00:25:10.270 align:middle line:84% came out around the same time, one of which was Kate Brown. 00:25:10.270 --> 00:25:13.330 align:middle line:84% As you may know, Kate's a member of the MIT faculty. 00:25:13.330 --> 00:25:15.685 align:middle line:84% She moved here roughly a year ago. 00:25:15.685 --> 00:25:17.800 align:middle line:90% She's a real expert on-- 00:25:17.800 --> 00:25:20.110 align:middle line:84% both on the Hanford site and the longer term 00:25:20.110 --> 00:25:22.930 align:middle line:84% historical development of nuclear projects 00:25:22.930 --> 00:25:23.950 align:middle line:90% in the United States. 00:25:23.950 --> 00:25:28.165 align:middle line:84% She's also trained as a Russian and Soviet historian, 00:25:28.165 --> 00:25:29.290 align:middle line:90% an environmental historian. 00:25:29.290 --> 00:25:31.090 align:middle line:84% She's done a lot of original work 00:25:31.090 --> 00:25:37.960 align:middle line:84% in Russia, Ukraine, and many, many non-English language 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:39.970 align:middle line:90% sources, which I can't do. 00:25:39.970 --> 00:25:41.230 align:middle line:90% She does marvelously. 00:25:41.230 --> 00:25:45.820 align:middle line:84% So she's really a remarkable scholar of comparative views 00:25:45.820 --> 00:25:49.580 align:middle line:90% of a lot of these materials. 00:25:49.580 --> 00:25:55.020 align:middle line:90% 00:25:55.020 --> 00:25:56.703 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I don't know. 00:25:56.703 --> 00:25:58.370 align:middle line:84% And this does raise the other questions. 00:25:58.370 --> 00:26:00.590 align:middle line:84% I mean, this came up a lot during the debates 00:26:00.590 --> 00:26:03.170 align:middle line:84% over Yucca Mountain, when it was still 00:26:03.170 --> 00:26:05.060 align:middle line:90% considered a live prospect. 00:26:05.060 --> 00:26:08.330 align:middle line:84% Let's say you have sufficient geological stability 00:26:08.330 --> 00:26:11.780 align:middle line:84% that you can somehow estimate for an unbelievably long time 00:26:11.780 --> 00:26:12.290 align:middle line:90% scale. 00:26:12.290 --> 00:26:14.330 align:middle line:84% Let's say you have enough sufficient storage 00:26:14.330 --> 00:26:15.620 align:middle line:90% and containment. 00:26:15.620 --> 00:26:17.180 align:middle line:90% How do you get the stuff there? 00:26:17.180 --> 00:26:20.660 align:middle line:84% I mean, do you put this on commercial railway cars. 00:26:20.660 --> 00:26:22.755 align:middle line:84% Coming back to Lucas's point before, someone 00:26:22.755 --> 00:26:25.130 align:middle line:84% knows there's some bad stuff on that train, why don't you 00:26:25.130 --> 00:26:27.920 align:middle line:84% just knock out the train and have some horrible dirty 00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:29.780 align:middle line:90% bomb-type attack? 00:26:29.780 --> 00:26:32.280 align:middle line:84% So how do you move this stuff, let alone 00:26:32.280 --> 00:26:36.480 align:middle line:84% in what form is this stuff most stable and most easy to move? 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:38.870 align:middle line:84% And there are plenty of experts who study this full-time. 00:26:38.870 --> 00:26:40.162 align:middle line:90% I'm absolutely not one of them. 00:26:40.162 --> 00:26:41.995 align:middle line:84% I don't what the current best practices are. 00:26:41.995 --> 00:26:43.704 align:middle line:84% But I know these were the kinds of things 00:26:43.704 --> 00:26:45.950 align:middle line:84% that had to be thought through-- not just can you 00:26:45.950 --> 00:26:49.880 align:middle line:84% predict the geological stability and the groundwater flow 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:51.810 align:middle line:90% over multiple millennia. 00:26:51.810 --> 00:26:54.460 align:middle line:84% I think the answer to that is not with sufficient confidence, 00:26:54.460 --> 00:26:54.960 align:middle line:90% right? 00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:57.630 align:middle line:84% That's already just incredibly hard, just 00:26:57.630 --> 00:26:59.745 align:middle line:90% as a narrow scientific question. 00:26:59.745 --> 00:27:01.620 align:middle line:84% And then you start getting to practical terms 00:27:01.620 --> 00:27:04.260 align:middle line:84% like, well, this stuff has to travel you know 2,000, 00:27:04.260 --> 00:27:05.550 align:middle line:90% 3,000 miles-- 00:27:05.550 --> 00:27:08.850 align:middle line:90% 2,000 miles. 00:27:08.850 --> 00:27:10.740 align:middle line:90% How do you get it there? 00:27:10.740 --> 00:27:12.880 align:middle line:90% What happens along the way? 00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:14.370 align:middle line:90% And those were, let's just say-- 00:27:14.370 --> 00:27:17.610 align:middle line:84% again, in the physicist terminology-- nontrivial, which 00:27:17.610 --> 00:27:19.710 align:middle line:90% is code for I have no idea. 00:27:19.710 --> 00:27:23.550 align:middle line:84% It's really hard and prone to all kinds of additional worries 00:27:23.550 --> 00:27:24.780 align:middle line:90% and concerns. 00:27:24.780 --> 00:27:27.655 align:middle line:84% Because even for the best intentioned humans, 00:27:27.655 --> 00:27:30.030 align:middle line:84% we're still human, let alone any kind of nefarious things 00:27:30.030 --> 00:27:31.300 align:middle line:90% that could interrupt it. 00:27:31.300 --> 00:27:33.300 align:middle line:84% So I know those kinds of considerations 00:27:33.300 --> 00:27:35.698 align:middle line:84% have been live issues since the '70s or '80s, 00:27:35.698 --> 00:27:36.990 align:middle line:90% let alone in more recent times. 00:27:36.990 --> 00:27:38.573 align:middle line:84% But to Tiffany's more direct question, 00:27:38.573 --> 00:27:42.510 align:middle line:84% I actually have no idea how that set of decisions were made. 00:27:42.510 --> 00:27:45.005 align:middle line:84% Is this format more stable to handle than others? 00:27:45.005 --> 00:27:47.130 align:middle line:84% That is well beyond anything I know about directly. 00:27:47.130 --> 00:27:52.050 align:middle line:90% 00:27:52.050 --> 00:27:54.240 align:middle line:84% Some years ago, I mean, maybe 15 years ago by now-- 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:56.670 align:middle line:84% I've lost track-- again, a little off-topic, 00:27:56.670 --> 00:28:00.840 align:middle line:84% but there was another historian of Cold War nuclear age stuff 00:28:00.840 --> 00:28:02.970 align:middle line:84% who put a petition together because-- 00:28:02.970 --> 00:28:05.970 align:middle line:84% speaking about Hanford, there was a move 00:28:05.970 --> 00:28:07.890 align:middle line:84% to-- let's see if I can get the story right. 00:28:07.890 --> 00:28:11.910 align:middle line:84% The local department of energy administrators 00:28:11.910 --> 00:28:13.770 align:middle line:84% were going to basically incinerate 00:28:13.770 --> 00:28:17.280 align:middle line:84% a bunch of literally garbage, mostly from World War II 00:28:17.280 --> 00:28:21.080 align:middle line:84% era or early post World War II times. 00:28:21.080 --> 00:28:22.830 align:middle line:84% And this other historian colleague of mine 00:28:22.830 --> 00:28:25.590 align:middle line:84% started a petition to say, please don't burn that stuff. 00:28:25.590 --> 00:28:27.690 align:middle line:84% Historians can learn so much about what 00:28:27.690 --> 00:28:30.970 align:middle line:84% it was like to live on the site from the crumpled up cigarette 00:28:30.970 --> 00:28:31.470 align:middle line:90% wrappers. 00:28:31.470 --> 00:28:36.690 align:middle line:84% It wasn't like the radioactive sludge. 00:28:36.690 --> 00:28:39.150 align:middle line:84% It was like signs of human encampments. 00:28:39.150 --> 00:28:41.250 align:middle line:84% It was like what did the workers there-- 00:28:41.250 --> 00:28:42.940 align:middle line:90% what was their life like? 00:28:42.940 --> 00:28:45.420 align:middle line:84% And you can learn a lot from going through someone else's 00:28:45.420 --> 00:28:46.860 align:middle line:90% garbage, right? 00:28:46.860 --> 00:28:49.770 align:middle line:84% So there's this effort to save the Hanford garbage, which 00:28:49.770 --> 00:28:52.245 align:middle line:90% sounds a little tongue in cheek. 00:28:52.245 --> 00:28:53.620 align:middle line:84% It was a robust effort to say, we 00:28:53.620 --> 00:28:58.870 align:middle line:84% need to learn about what it was like for all kinds of laborers 00:28:58.870 --> 00:29:00.410 align:middle line:90% and other staff on the site. 00:29:00.410 --> 00:29:04.780 align:middle line:84% So please don't burn their, at that point, nearly 50-year-old 00:29:04.780 --> 00:29:06.040 align:middle line:90% or 60-year-old garbage. 00:29:06.040 --> 00:29:07.360 align:middle line:84% And actually, I don't know whatever happened. 00:29:07.360 --> 00:29:09.193 align:middle line:84% I don't remember the follow-up, whether that 00:29:09.193 --> 00:29:13.490 align:middle line:84% succeeded in saving the historical garbage or not. 00:29:13.490 --> 00:29:15.760 align:middle line:84% But I found that an interesting effort. 00:29:15.760 --> 00:29:19.780 align:middle line:90% 00:29:19.780 --> 00:29:22.000 align:middle line:84% Think about the longest, earliest 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:26.020 align:middle line:84% known, human stories that we still know anything about. 00:29:26.020 --> 00:29:28.330 align:middle line:84% And just to your point, they haven't 00:29:28.330 --> 00:29:31.400 align:middle line:84% been unchanging in interpreted meaning, imputed meaning, 00:29:31.400 --> 00:29:31.900 align:middle line:90% right? 00:29:31.900 --> 00:29:35.680 align:middle line:84% And that's over not even 10,000 years, maybe 5,000, 00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:37.210 align:middle line:90% on the order of 5,000. 00:29:37.210 --> 00:29:42.730 align:middle line:84% I mean, we don't teach the ancient Greek stories, 00:29:42.730 --> 00:29:44.200 align:middle line:90% say this was their meaning. 00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:46.450 align:middle line:84% We teach them to say, look at the plethora of meanings 00:29:46.450 --> 00:29:49.010 align:middle line:84% that people might then or might still make of them. 00:29:49.010 --> 00:29:52.710 align:middle line:84% And think about Talmudic commentary. 00:29:52.710 --> 00:29:56.020 align:middle line:84% Any tradition, they're treated as living 00:29:56.020 --> 00:29:59.200 align:middle line:84% interpretive traditions, often at least, precisely 00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.240 align:middle line:84% because a single, unambiguous meaning 00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:04.690 align:middle line:84% is not what people seem to reach for or identify. 00:30:04.690 --> 00:30:07.300 align:middle line:84% And now, multiply that by a factor of 30, right? 00:30:07.300 --> 00:30:10.600 align:middle line:84% Now, do that not for 10,000 years but for 300,00 years. 00:30:10.600 --> 00:30:14.620 align:middle line:84% I just find that just utterly mind-boggling. 00:30:14.620 --> 00:30:16.622 align:middle line:84% So anyway, I share I share your observation 00:30:16.622 --> 00:30:18.580 align:middle line:84% that it's interesting that that's what people-- 00:30:18.580 --> 00:30:20.570 align:middle line:84% I take that maybe as a sign of we 00:30:20.570 --> 00:30:22.670 align:middle line:84% might call it desperation that they'll even 00:30:22.670 --> 00:30:24.575 align:middle line:84% go for that as opposed to any other, 00:30:24.575 --> 00:30:27.800 align:middle line:84% like Tiffany's saying recognizably high tech, 00:30:27.800 --> 00:30:30.410 align:middle line:90% high modernist interventions. 00:30:30.410 --> 00:30:35.120 align:middle line:84% I can't open documents that I wrote in college 00:30:35.120 --> 00:30:37.400 align:middle line:90% because of technological creep. 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:39.230 align:middle line:84% I was actually using Microsoft Word, 00:30:39.230 --> 00:30:41.240 align:middle line:90% whereas my teachers weren't. 00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:44.300 align:middle line:84% So there was actually a level of continuity with my machines 00:30:44.300 --> 00:30:45.140 align:middle line:90% and my software. 00:30:45.140 --> 00:30:50.060 align:middle line:84% And yet, I can't open documents from like the early '90s. 00:30:50.060 --> 00:30:53.510 align:middle line:84% Think about that level kind of just getting a message 00:30:53.510 --> 00:30:57.680 align:middle line:84% to persist and be readable over, again, 00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:02.250 align:middle line:84% tens of years, not hundreds or hundreds of thousands. 00:31:02.250 --> 00:31:03.390 align:middle line:90% Right, exactly. 00:31:03.390 --> 00:31:06.900 align:middle line:84% Yes, no, I think I totally agree. 00:31:06.900 --> 00:31:08.458 align:middle line:84% If not literally invitations to dig, 00:31:08.458 --> 00:31:10.500 align:middle line:84% they're at least not very good at stopping people 00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:11.042 align:middle line:90% from digging. 00:31:11.042 --> 00:31:16.410 align:middle line:90% 00:31:16.410 --> 00:31:17.070 align:middle line:90% Maybe. 00:31:17.070 --> 00:31:19.200 align:middle line:84% Remember, our baseline since Chernobyl 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.865 align:middle line:84% is approximately 30 years, 33 or 34. 00:31:22.865 --> 00:31:24.990 align:middle line:84% And again, I'm a little cautious of making the leap 00:31:24.990 --> 00:31:28.020 align:middle line:90% from 30 years to 300,000 years. 00:31:28.020 --> 00:31:29.760 align:middle line:90% So I guess I don't know. 00:31:29.760 --> 00:31:35.070 align:middle line:90% 00:31:35.070 --> 00:31:35.850 align:middle line:90% Right. 00:31:35.850 --> 00:31:37.250 align:middle line:90% Right, right. 00:31:37.250 --> 00:31:39.950 align:middle line:84% But also, I mean, I've seen some of these terracotta warriors. 00:31:39.950 --> 00:31:43.820 align:middle line:84% So clearly, part of the site has been not just investigated, 00:31:43.820 --> 00:31:46.080 align:middle line:84% but actually parts removed, moved around the world. 00:31:46.080 --> 00:31:49.873 align:middle line:84% So I don't remember the full details of it. 00:31:49.873 --> 00:31:51.290 align:middle line:84% It wasn't like the entire site was 00:31:51.290 --> 00:31:52.760 align:middle line:90% left untouched and pristine. 00:31:52.760 --> 00:31:57.880 align:middle line:90% 00:31:57.880 --> 00:31:58.690 align:middle line:90% Yeah, no. 00:31:58.690 --> 00:32:01.120 align:middle line:84% Again, I take that as a sign of the kind of desperation, 00:32:01.120 --> 00:32:02.828 align:middle line:84% the nature of the challenge, and the need 00:32:02.828 --> 00:32:04.430 align:middle line:90% to do out of the box thinking. 00:32:04.430 --> 00:32:07.240 align:middle line:84% But I'm not sure that they found compelling answers, even 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:10.040 align:middle line:90% with these wild exercises. 00:32:10.040 --> 00:32:10.540 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:32:10.540 --> 00:32:13.560 align:middle line:90% 00:32:13.560 --> 00:32:17.850 align:middle line:84% And also, how many cults have survived for 300,000 years 00:32:17.850 --> 00:32:20.760 align:middle line:90% or 10,000 years, let alone-- 00:32:20.760 --> 00:32:22.950 align:middle line:84% just the mismatch in timescales I just 00:32:22.950 --> 00:32:25.068 align:middle line:90% find utterly mind-boggling. 00:32:25.068 --> 00:32:29.550 align:middle line:90% 00:32:29.550 --> 00:32:31.375 align:middle line:84% And that's a good example, where I 00:32:31.375 --> 00:32:33.750 align:middle line:84% think it's safe to say that at each moment in those 2,000 00:32:33.750 --> 00:32:36.090 align:middle line:84% years, there hasn't been a single unified interpretation 00:32:36.090 --> 00:32:39.840 align:middle line:84% of what that body of practices and beliefs seems to mean. 00:32:39.840 --> 00:32:43.920 align:middle line:84% And that's a mere 2,000 years, let alone longer. 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:48.960 align:middle line:90% 00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:50.400 align:middle line:84% Or how many of the interpretations 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:52.650 align:middle line:84% even for people to take it seriously, how many of them 00:32:52.650 --> 00:32:55.380 align:middle line:84% line up with the original intentions 00:32:55.380 --> 00:32:59.730 align:middle line:84% or the hoped-for message back some generations ago? 00:32:59.730 --> 00:33:02.580 align:middle line:84% They're interpretive moving targets 00:33:02.580 --> 00:33:05.590 align:middle line:90% for people who make meanings. 00:33:05.590 --> 00:33:07.260 align:middle line:84% So that means the meanings will change. 00:33:07.260 --> 00:33:14.350 align:middle line:90% 00:33:14.350 --> 00:33:16.340 align:middle line:84% You think would be the Pyramids all over again, 00:33:16.340 --> 00:33:17.257 align:middle line:90% in other words, right? 00:33:17.257 --> 00:33:20.758 align:middle line:84% So build some kind of fairground-type marker. 00:33:20.758 --> 00:33:22.300 align:middle line:84% That could draw people in, as opposed 00:33:22.300 --> 00:33:23.383 align:middle line:90% to tell them to stay away. 00:33:23.383 --> 00:33:26.233 align:middle line:90% 00:33:26.233 --> 00:33:26.733 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:33:26.733 --> 00:33:30.680 align:middle line:90% 00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:33.810 align:middle line:84% That might buy you 1,000 years in round numbers-- 00:33:33.810 --> 00:33:35.770 align:middle line:90% Notre Dame, or the Durham-- 00:33:35.770 --> 00:33:37.403 align:middle line:84% there are, I'm sure, many structures 00:33:37.403 --> 00:33:39.570 align:middle line:84% in other parts of the world that I don't know about. 00:33:39.570 --> 00:33:46.080 align:middle line:84% 1,000 years, pyramids, 4,000 years. 00:33:46.080 --> 00:33:48.480 align:middle line:84% We're still missing some zeros on that. 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.940 align:middle line:90% 00:33:52.940 --> 00:33:53.440 align:middle line:90% Yes. 00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:55.510 align:middle line:84% Unlike the Sphinx, of course, nearby, which 00:33:55.510 --> 00:33:59.830 align:middle line:84% lost a nose to overeager soldiers with machine guns. 00:33:59.830 --> 00:34:01.850 align:middle line:90% So Yeah. 00:34:01.850 --> 00:34:04.420 align:middle line:90% 00:34:04.420 --> 00:34:05.210 align:middle line:90% Any other parts? 00:34:05.210 --> 00:34:08.889 align:middle line:84% I mean, we're focusing a lot on this 300,000 years time scale 00:34:08.889 --> 00:34:10.878 align:middle line:84% because I keep harping on it because I 00:34:10.878 --> 00:34:11.920 align:middle line:90% find it so mind-boggling. 00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:14.630 align:middle line:84% Any other parts of the film, other themes or questions 00:34:14.630 --> 00:34:16.870 align:middle line:84% that are raised are brought to mind, 00:34:16.870 --> 00:34:18.219 align:middle line:90% things that were unexpected? 00:34:18.219 --> 00:34:21.463 align:middle line:90% 00:34:21.463 --> 00:34:23.380 align:middle line:84% So that's a really interesting question, Alex. 00:34:23.380 --> 00:34:24.840 align:middle line:84% I don't know what we mean by safest 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:28.080 align:middle line:90% or what the metric would be. 00:34:28.080 --> 00:34:32.460 align:middle line:84% So I do know we have many colleagues at MIT who 00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:35.429 align:middle line:84% are very, very concerned about climate change. 00:34:35.429 --> 00:34:36.989 align:middle line:90% That's true broadly. 00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:40.080 align:middle line:84% And some subset of them are very concerned that if we're not 00:34:40.080 --> 00:34:43.920 align:middle line:84% trying to figure out safe and reliable nuclear power, 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.690 align:middle line:84% then is there a longer term viability 00:34:45.690 --> 00:34:47.969 align:middle line:84% to address climate change to get off of such 00:34:47.969 --> 00:34:49.500 align:middle line:90% a dominance of fossil fuels? 00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:50.525 align:middle line:90% I'm agnostic. 00:34:50.525 --> 00:34:51.900 align:middle line:84% Just personally, to share, I just 00:34:51.900 --> 00:34:53.483 align:middle line:84% don't consider myself an expert enough 00:34:53.483 --> 00:34:56.310 align:middle line:84% on that to really understand the layers of trade-offs. 00:34:56.310 --> 00:34:59.250 align:middle line:84% But I know that there are plenty of our neighbors at MIT, let 00:34:59.250 --> 00:35:03.628 align:middle line:84% alone in the wider world, who would answer your question 00:35:03.628 --> 00:35:04.420 align:middle line:90% in the affirmative. 00:35:04.420 --> 00:35:06.753 align:middle line:84% And I don't know enough to give a thoroughly independent 00:35:06.753 --> 00:35:07.253 align:middle line:90% answer. 00:35:07.253 --> 00:35:09.430 align:middle line:84% I can understand at least where they're coming from. 00:35:09.430 --> 00:35:12.220 align:middle line:90% 00:35:12.220 --> 00:35:17.150 align:middle line:84% And I think the challenge then becomes, if that is the case-- 00:35:17.150 --> 00:35:18.550 align:middle line:90% and I say if, I don't know-- 00:35:18.550 --> 00:35:21.190 align:middle line:84% how do we learn from the past to not 00:35:21.190 --> 00:35:25.600 align:middle line:84% keep replicating the unintended consequences that 00:35:25.600 --> 00:35:27.902 align:middle line:84% have surrounded that body of work to date? 00:35:27.902 --> 00:35:29.860 align:middle line:84% And again, we're not talking about 1,000 years. 00:35:29.860 --> 00:35:33.460 align:middle line:84% We're talking about 50 to 70 years and the number 00:35:33.460 --> 00:35:37.300 align:middle line:84% of instances where safeguards weren't put in, 00:35:37.300 --> 00:35:39.460 align:middle line:84% where human error was nonetheless 00:35:39.460 --> 00:35:41.200 align:middle line:84% not sufficiently guarded against, 00:35:41.200 --> 00:35:45.340 align:middle line:84% where bad stuff happened even with the best of intentions. 00:35:45.340 --> 00:35:48.330 align:middle line:90% 00:35:48.330 --> 00:35:50.937 align:middle line:84% Then I think that makes other of my friends 00:35:50.937 --> 00:35:52.520 align:middle line:84% and colleagues concerned about saying, 00:35:52.520 --> 00:35:53.020 align:middle line:90% well, there's the answer. 00:35:53.020 --> 00:35:54.812 align:middle line:84% Let's just put all our eggs in that basket. 00:35:54.812 --> 00:35:56.320 align:middle line:90% Let's go charge right ahead. 00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:00.920 align:middle line:84% So I guess I sit astride a lot of these discussions. 00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:07.510 align:middle line:84% And I'm personally, genuinely just stuck, just really stuck 00:36:07.510 --> 00:36:11.470 align:middle line:84% because I can really appreciate the impetus, especially 00:36:11.470 --> 00:36:13.630 align:middle line:84% in terms of climate change and sustainability, 00:36:13.630 --> 00:36:16.480 align:middle line:84% and yet also really share the worries 00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:18.640 align:middle line:84% that people who knew better in the past 00:36:18.640 --> 00:36:19.755 align:middle line:90% didn't always do better. 00:36:19.755 --> 00:36:21.130 align:middle line:84% People didn't always know better. 00:36:21.130 --> 00:36:23.630 align:middle line:84% What don't we even know today to even worry about, let alone 00:36:23.630 --> 00:36:26.410 align:middle line:84% what do we do know and still haven't adequately really 00:36:26.410 --> 00:36:28.220 align:middle line:90% addressed in a systematic way? 00:36:28.220 --> 00:36:32.080 align:middle line:84% So I just feel paralyzed, I mean, personally, 00:36:32.080 --> 00:36:35.470 align:middle line:84% even though I there are strongly held arguments 00:36:35.470 --> 00:36:36.222 align:middle line:90% on a whole range. 00:36:36.222 --> 00:36:37.930 align:middle line:84% It's not like it's one side or the other, 00:36:37.930 --> 00:36:38.805 align:middle line:90% but a whole spectrum. 00:36:38.805 --> 00:36:41.540 align:middle line:90% 00:36:41.540 --> 00:36:42.210 align:middle line:90% So I don't know. 00:36:42.210 --> 00:36:43.871 align:middle line:90% I mean, I don't know. 00:36:43.871 --> 00:36:46.435 align:middle line:84% If we had a flawless history for even 00:36:46.435 --> 00:36:48.550 align:middle line:84% a five year stretch, let alone 50, 00:36:48.550 --> 00:36:50.950 align:middle line:84% then maybe I'd have more reason for confidence. 00:36:50.950 --> 00:36:55.510 align:middle line:84% But personally, I see the flaws and the unintended consequences 00:36:55.510 --> 00:36:59.440 align:middle line:84% pretty sharply, just personally from where I sit, 00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:01.630 align:middle line:84% partly maybe because being a historian who 00:37:01.630 --> 00:37:03.130 align:middle line:84% focuses a lot on the Cold War, there 00:37:03.130 --> 00:37:06.400 align:middle line:84% are a lot of things that people did know better about back 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.340 align:middle line:84% then and yet, nonetheless, citing national security, 00:37:09.340 --> 00:37:12.820 align:middle line:84% citing pressing demands and needs would cut corners 00:37:12.820 --> 00:37:14.860 align:middle line:84% or not tell people the full story. 00:37:14.860 --> 00:37:16.152 align:middle line:90% It'd come out only later. 00:37:16.152 --> 00:37:17.860 align:middle line:84% So I guess I come to some of these things 00:37:17.860 --> 00:37:19.110 align:middle line:90% with a bit of a jaundiced eye. 00:37:19.110 --> 00:37:23.700 align:middle line:90% That's just me, personally. 00:37:23.700 --> 00:37:25.980 align:middle line:84% So that's where I get I get stuck. 00:37:25.980 --> 00:37:27.465 align:middle line:84% I will just simply say I get stuck. 00:37:27.465 --> 00:37:36.320 align:middle line:90% 00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:37.750 align:middle line:84% I mean, it's a great point, Lucas. 00:37:37.750 --> 00:37:39.790 align:middle line:84% And even stepping away from the nuclear side, 00:37:39.790 --> 00:37:44.380 align:middle line:84% I mean, again, you can find these very earnest debates 00:37:44.380 --> 00:37:49.180 align:middle line:84% about cost-benefit analyses and risk trade-offs about, 00:37:49.180 --> 00:37:51.850 align:middle line:84% let's say, ethanol or other efforts 00:37:51.850 --> 00:37:53.800 align:middle line:84% to focus on, say, fossil fuel use. 00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:56.800 align:middle line:84% Oh, well, you'd use bio-organic, this or that. 00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:59.020 align:middle line:84% And then you try to cost in all of 00:37:59.020 --> 00:38:03.010 align:middle line:84% the fossil fuel-based fertilizer that's needed 00:38:03.010 --> 00:38:07.350 align:middle line:84% or all the other things beyond the product narrowly construed. 00:38:07.350 --> 00:38:09.850 align:middle line:84% And then you find that, at the very least, it becomes murky. 00:38:09.850 --> 00:38:14.530 align:middle line:84% The answer becomes pretty unclear, at least to me. 00:38:14.530 --> 00:38:16.720 align:middle line:84% And I think that is all the more so amidst 00:38:16.720 --> 00:38:18.340 align:middle line:84% these uncertainties like, what do you 00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:20.048 align:middle line:84% do with all this nuclear waste that's not 00:38:20.048 --> 00:38:21.410 align:middle line:90% going to go away any time soon? 00:38:21.410 --> 00:38:23.683 align:middle line:84% Then we come back to the question about nuclear power. 00:38:23.683 --> 00:38:25.600 align:middle line:84% So that doesn't mean the answer can never ever 00:38:25.600 --> 00:38:26.308 align:middle line:90% be nuclear power. 00:38:26.308 --> 00:38:30.790 align:middle line:84% But I mean, the tendrils, the extent of this very extensive 00:38:30.790 --> 00:38:34.000 align:middle line:84% system, as opposed to the safety protocols of a given reactor 00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:38.720 align:middle line:84% design, I think the breadth of those-- 00:38:38.720 --> 00:38:43.040 align:middle line:84% of the range of questions makes me skeptical 00:38:43.040 --> 00:38:46.430 align:middle line:84% that we're going to find a clear answer, a clear metric that 00:38:46.430 --> 00:38:48.900 align:middle line:84% says, at the end of the day, yes, green light. 00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:50.510 align:middle line:90% The answer is plus 7. 00:38:50.510 --> 00:38:51.260 align:middle line:90% Go forward. 00:38:51.260 --> 00:38:53.980 align:middle line:84% That's where I get more skeptical. 00:38:53.980 --> 00:39:03.660 align:middle line:90% 00:39:03.660 --> 00:39:06.150 align:middle line:84% What are the competing incentive structures structures? 00:39:06.150 --> 00:39:08.530 align:middle line:84% And I'm not saying there's one clearly the right answer. 00:39:08.530 --> 00:39:12.473 align:middle line:84% But we have to worry about what decisions are being made 00:39:12.473 --> 00:39:14.640 align:middle line:84% according, again, to what measures and what metrics. 00:39:14.640 --> 00:39:16.540 align:middle line:90% What are the incentives? 00:39:16.540 --> 00:39:17.040 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 00:39:17.040 --> 00:39:20.896 align:middle line:90% 00:39:20.896 --> 00:39:23.510 align:middle line:90% Why can't it still be used? 00:39:23.510 --> 00:39:24.662 align:middle line:90% Oh, that's interesting. 00:39:24.662 --> 00:39:26.870 align:middle line:84% Again, others on the call might have a better answer. 00:39:26.870 --> 00:39:29.660 align:middle line:84% But I think the reactors that I'm 00:39:29.660 --> 00:39:31.550 align:middle line:84% familiar with are usually trying to do 00:39:31.550 --> 00:39:34.680 align:middle line:84% very specific kinds of reactions ultimately 00:39:34.680 --> 00:39:37.460 align:middle line:90% to extract excess energy. 00:39:37.460 --> 00:39:39.410 align:middle line:84% And not everything that's radioactive 00:39:39.410 --> 00:39:41.540 align:middle line:84% will contribute to that energy balance. 00:39:41.540 --> 00:39:43.670 align:middle line:84% So things become radioactive as a consequence 00:39:43.670 --> 00:39:47.070 align:middle line:84% of these reactions from which one can extract energy. 00:39:47.070 --> 00:39:50.073 align:middle line:84% But I think the most well understood, 00:39:50.073 --> 00:39:51.740 align:middle line:84% and as far as I know the most efficient, 00:39:51.740 --> 00:39:55.430 align:middle line:84% reactions that will produce the excess energy ultimately 00:39:55.430 --> 00:39:57.230 align:middle line:84% involve very specific kinds of ingredients, 00:39:57.230 --> 00:40:00.810 align:middle line:84% let's say, very specific kinds of target nuclei to start from. 00:40:00.810 --> 00:40:03.080 align:middle line:84% And so that's why I think it's called waste. 00:40:03.080 --> 00:40:05.090 align:middle line:84% The other things that become radioactive 00:40:05.090 --> 00:40:08.660 align:middle line:84% are not ones that one can nonetheless 00:40:08.660 --> 00:40:11.990 align:middle line:84% put back into the reactor and extract excess energy 00:40:11.990 --> 00:40:15.427 align:middle line:90% from in any scalable way. 00:40:15.427 --> 00:40:16.760 align:middle line:90% That was a very abstract answer. 00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:19.130 align:middle line:84% I'd have to learn more about the particular isotopes 00:40:19.130 --> 00:40:21.720 align:middle line:84% and particular reactions, which is not 00:40:21.720 --> 00:40:23.400 align:middle line:90% what I work on at all directly. 00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:28.380 align:middle line:84% But I think the basic point is that, for these fission 00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:30.420 align:middle line:84% reactions, not everything that's radioactive 00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:32.790 align:middle line:90% is highly fissionable. 00:40:32.790 --> 00:40:34.290 align:middle line:84% And yet, it still could be dangerous 00:40:34.290 --> 00:40:35.832 align:middle line:84% because it's still emitting junk that 00:40:35.832 --> 00:40:39.270 align:middle line:84% could hurt people, and plants, and the environment. 00:40:39.270 --> 00:40:40.560 align:middle line:90% I think that's the upshot. 00:40:40.560 --> 00:40:42.750 align:middle line:84% So only a small set of these isotopes 00:40:42.750 --> 00:40:47.100 align:middle line:84% will actually fission upon being struck by neutrons 00:40:47.100 --> 00:40:51.242 align:middle line:84% of a certain characteristic, and then release the excess energy. 00:40:51.242 --> 00:40:53.700 align:middle line:84% The others are shooting out alpha particles, and beta rays, 00:40:53.700 --> 00:40:59.930 align:middle line:84% and gammas, but not splitting a nucleus 00:40:59.930 --> 00:41:02.210 align:middle line:84% from which there'll be this large excess energy 00:41:02.210 --> 00:41:03.635 align:middle line:84% per splitting, per fission event. 00:41:03.635 --> 00:41:12.300 align:middle line:90% 00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:15.120 align:middle line:84% So these uranium-boosted armaments, 00:41:15.120 --> 00:41:16.840 align:middle line:90% these kinds of things? 00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:18.857 align:middle line:90% Yeah, yeah. 00:41:18.857 --> 00:41:19.940 align:middle line:90% I don't know Nixon's book. 00:41:19.940 --> 00:41:22.482 align:middle line:84% I remember reading at least some of the journalistic accounts 00:41:22.482 --> 00:41:24.460 align:middle line:84% about more recent concerns about uses 00:41:24.460 --> 00:41:29.140 align:middle line:84% of uranium-doped armaments, basically. 00:41:29.140 --> 00:41:34.300 align:middle line:90% Yeah, yeah. 00:41:34.300 --> 00:41:39.930 align:middle line:90% 00:41:39.930 --> 00:41:40.710 align:middle line:90% Good. 00:41:40.710 --> 00:41:42.030 align:middle line:90% Well, we can pause there. 00:41:42.030 --> 00:41:43.962 align:middle line:84% We don't have to run down the clock. 00:41:43.962 --> 00:41:45.420 align:middle line:84% We covered a lot of ground already. 00:41:45.420 --> 00:41:49.403 align:middle line:90% 00:41:49.403 --> 00:41:50.820 align:middle line:84% Thanks for joining the discussion. 00:41:50.820 --> 00:41:52.680 align:middle line:84% I thought that was really interesting. 00:41:52.680 --> 00:41:56.730 align:middle line:84% We'll go back to the regular format on Wednesday 00:41:56.730 --> 00:41:59.280 align:middle line:90% and thereafter, of course. 00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:00.490 align:middle line:90% And then we'll go from there. 00:42:00.490 --> 00:42:02.573 align:middle line:84% If you have any other questions, of course, please 00:42:02.573 --> 00:42:04.925 align:middle line:84% don't hesitate to email me or any of the TAs. 00:42:04.925 --> 00:42:07.050 align:middle line:84% I'll have my regular office hours Wednesday morning 00:42:07.050 --> 00:42:10.390 align:middle line:84% at 11:00 and all that good stuff. 00:42:10.390 --> 00:42:14.000 align:middle line:90%