WEBVTT 00:00:00.090 --> 00:00:02.430 The following content is provided under a Creative 00:00:02.430 --> 00:00:03.820 Commons license. 00:00:03.820 --> 00:00:06.030 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:06.030 --> 00:00:10.120 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 00:00:10.120 --> 00:00:12.660 To make a donation or to view additional materials 00:00:12.660 --> 00:00:16.620 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:16.620 --> 00:00:17.992 at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:20.698 --> 00:00:22.240 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: All right, Steph. 00:00:22.240 --> 00:00:27.480 Let's go into Claudia Goldin and Lawrence Katz. 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:30.060 STEPH: Obviously, Goldin and Katz 00:00:30.060 --> 00:00:37.690 focus on the big picture issue, which 00:00:37.690 --> 00:00:43.410 is what you have drawn for us in the big picture-- 00:00:43.410 --> 00:00:45.620 pun semi-intended. 00:00:45.620 --> 00:00:47.995 And a consideration that I had was 00:00:47.995 --> 00:00:50.620 on the research and development process, which is not something 00:00:50.620 --> 00:00:52.510 that they touched on here, which could maybe 00:00:52.510 --> 00:00:54.550 provide a short-term fix. 00:00:54.550 --> 00:00:57.010 And I'd love to hear your input. 00:00:57.010 --> 00:00:59.620 Is there, in the research and development process, 00:00:59.620 --> 00:01:03.040 people who openly talk about the ways in which their technology 00:01:03.040 --> 00:01:04.930 may cause social disruption? 00:01:04.930 --> 00:01:07.050 And if so, can you identify someone 00:01:07.050 --> 00:01:08.580 on a project that you've worked on 00:01:08.580 --> 00:01:10.000 or a firm that you know of that's 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:13.510 concerned about the social or economic implications 00:01:13.510 --> 00:01:15.910 of the technologies that they are building? 00:01:15.910 --> 00:01:17.810 RASHID: Don't VCs do this all the time? 00:01:17.810 --> 00:01:18.630 They decide-- 00:01:18.630 --> 00:01:19.630 MARTIN: No, they don't. 00:01:19.630 --> 00:01:20.630 [LAUGHTER] 00:01:20.630 --> 00:01:22.662 RASHID: But they might decide, this is my niche, 00:01:22.662 --> 00:01:24.120 this is what I haven't seen before, 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:28.480 and these are the reasons why this particular technology 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:30.723 would take advantage of this unseen market. 00:01:30.723 --> 00:01:32.140 And so I don't know if that's what 00:01:32.140 --> 00:01:33.490 you're trying to get at with-- 00:01:33.490 --> 00:01:33.990 MARTIN: No. 00:01:33.990 --> 00:01:36.207 I think her point was like, OK, if we do this, 00:01:36.207 --> 00:01:37.540 it will change society this way. 00:01:37.540 --> 00:01:39.500 Like Uber said, OK, if we do this, 00:01:39.500 --> 00:01:41.140 this technology will get rid of all these cab drivers, 00:01:41.140 --> 00:01:42.973 and there's going to be a social disruption. 00:01:42.973 --> 00:01:44.255 Is that your kind of angle? 00:01:44.255 --> 00:01:45.130 STEPH: Sort of, yeah. 00:01:45.130 --> 00:01:45.640 MARTIN: OK. 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:45.940 Yeah. 00:01:45.940 --> 00:01:47.200 I think your angle was more like, 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:48.658 oh, this is going to be a huge hit, 00:01:48.658 --> 00:01:51.870 and it's really going to change society, right? 00:01:51.870 --> 00:01:52.370 RASHID: Yes. 00:01:52.370 --> 00:01:53.190 MARTIN: OK, cool. 00:01:53.190 --> 00:01:56.770 STEPH: Right, so I guess in my consideration of business 00:01:56.770 --> 00:02:00.850 and consumer markets, and in some of the research 00:02:00.850 --> 00:02:03.827 that I'm conducting for my paper on autonomous vehicles, one 00:02:03.827 --> 00:02:05.410 of the questions that I've been tasked 00:02:05.410 --> 00:02:07.510 to ask by anthropologists, two firms 00:02:07.510 --> 00:02:09.220 that I might be interviewing, or even 00:02:09.220 --> 00:02:12.640 as I'm going over literature base and public releases 00:02:12.640 --> 00:02:17.680 to the press, is essentially, who on the staff 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:21.640 is in charge of answering questions or raising 00:02:21.640 --> 00:02:24.400 considerations about social disruption 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.310 or economic disruption that your technology might cause? 00:02:27.310 --> 00:02:29.940 And if a firm can't answer that, then you have your answer-- 00:02:29.940 --> 00:02:30.690 that they're not-- 00:02:30.690 --> 00:02:33.065 that they don't consider that as a part of their research 00:02:33.065 --> 00:02:34.065 and development process. 00:02:34.065 --> 00:02:36.315 And I think it's possible that some people would argue 00:02:36.315 --> 00:02:39.090 that that's beyond the scope of what the firm should be doing, 00:02:39.090 --> 00:02:39.590 right? 00:02:39.590 --> 00:02:41.680 They should be focusing on the technology. 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:44.477 They perhaps should not have an ethicist that they should-- 00:02:44.477 --> 00:02:46.310 or perhaps they should just have an ethicist 00:02:46.310 --> 00:02:48.018 that they consult with, but it should not 00:02:48.018 --> 00:02:50.947 be someone who's formally a part of their staff. 00:02:50.947 --> 00:02:52.780 So I'd love to hear your perspective on this 00:02:52.780 --> 00:02:54.220 as perhaps a short-term fix. 00:02:54.220 --> 00:02:58.210 As we sort of promote technological advances, 00:02:58.210 --> 00:03:00.970 should there be someone who's constantly raising a flag 00:03:00.970 --> 00:03:03.700 and saying, ha, perhaps this might not be a good idea 00:03:03.700 --> 00:03:10.265 to deploy in the time frame that we have set for ourselves? 00:03:10.265 --> 00:03:12.890 SPEAKER 1: So I'm working on the mobility of the future project 00:03:12.890 --> 00:03:13.940 as part of my thesis. 00:03:13.940 --> 00:03:17.010 And so a lot of it is with autonomous vehicles. 00:03:17.010 --> 00:03:18.500 And it does seem-- 00:03:18.500 --> 00:03:21.347 well, first of all, with that example specifically, 00:03:21.347 --> 00:03:23.180 a lot of the companies who are working on it 00:03:23.180 --> 00:03:25.020 are very secretive about what they're doing. 00:03:25.020 --> 00:03:27.560 So it's not very clear as to what's 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:29.660 going on within the companies. 00:03:29.660 --> 00:03:33.510 But outside of them, at least with this example, 00:03:33.510 --> 00:03:37.130 there is a lot of work and awareness 00:03:37.130 --> 00:03:39.660 about potential disruptions. 00:03:39.660 --> 00:03:42.260 I question whether that's always been the case or kind 00:03:42.260 --> 00:03:44.960 of the recent disruptions have spurred people 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:48.020 to think about this more. 00:03:48.020 --> 00:03:50.067 So there's a group at the MIT AgeLab, 00:03:50.067 --> 00:03:51.650 I don't know if you've talked to them. 00:03:51.650 --> 00:03:52.620 STEPH: The what lab? 00:03:52.620 --> 00:03:53.540 SPEAKER 1: AgeLab? 00:03:53.540 --> 00:03:53.840 Age. 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:54.340 STEPH: Age? 00:03:54.340 --> 00:03:54.883 Like, A-G-E? 00:03:54.883 --> 00:03:55.550 SPEAKER 1: Yeah. 00:03:55.550 --> 00:03:56.652 MARTIN: What do they do? 00:03:56.652 --> 00:03:58.610 SPEAKER 1: Well, they do a lot of stuff related 00:03:58.610 --> 00:04:00.560 to how people are aging. 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:02.720 But they also have a big group that's 00:04:02.720 --> 00:04:06.800 working on the autonomous vehicles, 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:10.280 less so on the technology side, but how it's affecting people. 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:13.700 So they have a lot of experiments 00:04:13.700 --> 00:04:16.130 where they're letting people drive autonomous cars 00:04:16.130 --> 00:04:18.589 and recording them with their consent, 00:04:18.589 --> 00:04:21.079 and they're trying to get knowledge about how people are 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:23.300 interacting with these technologies, what 00:04:23.300 --> 00:04:26.300 changes it could have, what negative changes it could have. 00:04:26.300 --> 00:04:29.125 So they showed us a video of this guy who was looking down 00:04:29.125 --> 00:04:30.500 at his phone for like two minutes 00:04:30.500 --> 00:04:34.140 while driving on the Mass Pike, which is terrifying. 00:04:34.140 --> 00:04:38.990 And so as we transition from a not quite autonomous vehicle 00:04:38.990 --> 00:04:41.240 to a fully one, he was talking about how 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:43.490 he expects to see more accidents in the near future, 00:04:43.490 --> 00:04:44.850 until we get to the point. 00:04:44.850 --> 00:04:48.260 So I think people are thinking about how 00:04:48.260 --> 00:04:51.110 these technologies and their developments 00:04:51.110 --> 00:04:53.553 affect things other than just how we're 00:04:53.553 --> 00:04:54.720 getting from place to place. 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:56.270 It's not such a simple story. 00:04:56.270 --> 00:04:58.392 STEPH: And would you mind elaborating? 00:04:58.392 --> 00:05:00.100 The reason I bring up this point, and why 00:05:00.100 --> 00:05:01.642 I've been thinking about it so fully, 00:05:01.642 --> 00:05:05.390 is because Bill assessed that a very important component 00:05:05.390 --> 00:05:07.790 of driverless vehicles is the impact that it's 00:05:07.790 --> 00:05:10.310 going to have on the workforce, on truck drivers, 00:05:10.310 --> 00:05:13.665 and on delivery laborers. 00:05:13.665 --> 00:05:16.040 Do you think that those are considerations that have been 00:05:16.040 --> 00:05:19.280 raised vis-รก-vis driverless cars? 00:05:19.280 --> 00:05:21.950 And do you think that there is maybe a role for someone 00:05:21.950 --> 00:05:26.240 to be highlighting that as an issue within each innovation 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:27.493 team? 00:05:27.493 --> 00:05:28.160 SPEAKER 1: Yeah. 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:31.215 I feel like that hasn't been as much of a focus in our work. 00:05:31.215 --> 00:05:32.840 People talk about it, but no one really 00:05:32.840 --> 00:05:34.800 talks about-- they're like, that's going to be a problem. 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:35.370 [LAUGHTER] 00:05:35.370 --> 00:05:37.550 And that's the end of the discussion 00:05:37.550 --> 00:05:38.960 from what I've seen so far. 00:05:38.960 --> 00:05:42.800 But I do think that, especially after this election, 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:47.492 people are talking more and more about disruptive technologies. 00:05:47.492 --> 00:05:49.200 I hadn't heard people talk about it much. 00:05:49.200 --> 00:05:50.742 But then I was listening to a podcast 00:05:50.742 --> 00:05:54.342 today where someone was like, I noticed in Logan the movie-- 00:05:54.342 --> 00:05:56.050 CHLOE: I was just about to bring that up. 00:05:56.050 --> 00:05:56.290 Oh my gosh. 00:05:56.290 --> 00:05:57.910 SPEAKER 2: Wait, if you spoil it, I swear-- 00:05:57.910 --> 00:05:59.120 SPEAKER 1: I haven't seen it. 00:05:59.120 --> 00:05:59.740 [LAUGHTER] 00:05:59.740 --> 00:06:01.220 SPEAKER 2: I haven't seen it. 00:06:01.220 --> 00:06:02.220 MARTIN: Cover your ears. 00:06:02.220 --> 00:06:02.986 STEPH: Me either. 00:06:02.986 --> 00:06:05.060 SPEAKER 1: In the movie Logan, apparently-- 00:06:05.060 --> 00:06:06.550 I haven't seen it, you might do a better job 00:06:06.550 --> 00:06:08.480 describing-- but there's a scene where there's 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:09.868 all these trucks around. 00:06:09.868 --> 00:06:11.660 And none of them have cabs, because they're 00:06:11.660 --> 00:06:12.452 driving themselves. 00:06:12.452 --> 00:06:14.243 And there was a senator talking about this. 00:06:14.243 --> 00:06:16.350 And she's like, wow, this really could happen. 00:06:16.350 --> 00:06:18.770 And then what happens to all of these truck drivers? 00:06:18.770 --> 00:06:20.930 I never thought about it until I saw Logan. 00:06:20.930 --> 00:06:23.780 So I think that's interesting how it's permeating through-- 00:06:23.780 --> 00:06:26.510 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So I want to hold this discussion 00:06:26.510 --> 00:06:29.690 until next week's class, which is about the future of work. 00:06:29.690 --> 00:06:31.280 I mean, it's exactly like-- 00:06:31.280 --> 00:06:32.310 it's about this problem. 00:06:32.310 --> 00:06:34.772 So we've gotten it on the table. 00:06:34.772 --> 00:06:36.980 Everybody's going to have a chance to think about it. 00:06:36.980 --> 00:06:37.190 SPEAKER 1: Watch Logan. 00:06:37.190 --> 00:06:39.523 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: And you can go back and watch Logan. 00:06:39.523 --> 00:06:41.180 You can recount your favorite stories. 00:06:41.180 --> 00:06:43.310 But, Steph, do bring this up again 00:06:43.310 --> 00:06:45.620 when we go after these issues next week. 00:06:45.620 --> 00:06:48.680 But focus us more now on Katz and Goldin and Bamol, 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:49.420 if you would. 00:06:49.420 --> 00:06:49.920 STEPH: OK. 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:51.170 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Thank you. 00:06:51.170 --> 00:06:53.420 STEPH: I have been redirected. 00:06:53.420 --> 00:06:54.650 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I'm not trying to silence you, Steph. 00:06:54.650 --> 00:06:55.370 STEPH: No, no, absolutely not. 00:06:55.370 --> 00:06:58.280 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I promise you airtime in the next class. 00:06:58.280 --> 00:06:59.163 [LAUGHTER] 00:06:59.163 --> 00:07:00.080 STEPH: Well, I think-- 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:07.430 I guess one of my critiques of my social science education-- 00:07:07.430 --> 00:07:11.170 and I think this is generally my critique of social science 00:07:11.170 --> 00:07:12.940 education generally-- 00:07:12.940 --> 00:07:16.670 is that there are benefits to talking about an issue, 00:07:16.670 --> 00:07:20.320 but there's only so much that public discourse can get you, 00:07:20.320 --> 00:07:22.220 especially in a round table setting, 00:07:22.220 --> 00:07:24.660 in an academic environment, where the most of us 00:07:24.660 --> 00:07:27.520 start to feel like, for the most part, 00:07:27.520 --> 00:07:30.370 are on the same side of an issue. 00:07:30.370 --> 00:07:32.797 So I struggle to come up with good questions 00:07:32.797 --> 00:07:34.880 and think about what might actually be meaningful, 00:07:34.880 --> 00:07:37.930 as we're having a conversation about an issue as large and as 00:07:37.930 --> 00:07:42.280 difficult to grapple with as inequality, especially 00:07:42.280 --> 00:07:46.390 as Katz and Goldin purported. 00:07:46.390 --> 00:07:52.390 But I think one of you talked about how, 00:07:52.390 --> 00:07:55.780 relative to Bamol's analysis, if America should shift 00:07:55.780 --> 00:08:01.030 towards a focus on primarily promoting breakthrough 00:08:01.030 --> 00:08:04.420 innovations, where we can still maintain competitive advantages 00:08:04.420 --> 00:08:06.190 in the research and development system 00:08:06.190 --> 00:08:07.840 rather than even concerning ourselves 00:08:07.840 --> 00:08:11.710 at all with the fixing of the education system 00:08:11.710 --> 00:08:14.500 or the fixing of the R&D pipeline. 00:08:14.500 --> 00:08:17.020 And this sort of hints at a question that Matt 00:08:17.020 --> 00:08:19.430 had asked earlier in the semester, where he said, 00:08:19.430 --> 00:08:24.160 is the impetus on us, as a civil society, to educate everyone? 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:25.570 Is that even advantageous to us? 00:08:25.570 --> 00:08:27.197 Do people even want to be educated? 00:08:27.197 --> 00:08:28.280 And what are the benefits? 00:08:28.280 --> 00:08:32.350 And making this resource available to all, 00:08:32.350 --> 00:08:34.720 when it seems like we're already failing 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:37.419 spectacularly at this experiment that is 00:08:37.419 --> 00:08:40.059 the United States of America. 00:08:40.059 --> 00:08:41.559 MARTIN: I don't think we're failing. 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:42.226 SPEAKER 2: Yeah. 00:08:42.226 --> 00:08:44.860 MARTIN: It's 300 years old, and that's relatively short. 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:47.810 We're still figuring our stuff out, in terms of nations, 00:08:47.810 --> 00:08:48.310 right? 00:08:48.310 --> 00:08:50.770 SPEAKER 2: Yeah, I'd say we did pretty well. 00:08:50.770 --> 00:08:52.690 We're not great, not anymore. 00:08:52.690 --> 00:08:54.816 But-- so let's make it great again. 00:08:54.816 --> 00:08:55.316 [LAUGHS] 00:08:55.316 --> 00:08:56.730 MARTIN: I think it's kind of like bubble thinking, 00:08:56.730 --> 00:08:58.930 like people losing their minds in sensationalism. 00:08:58.930 --> 00:08:59.930 I think it's more like-- 00:08:59.930 --> 00:09:01.722 because their argument's pretty much like-- 00:09:01.722 --> 00:09:03.340 it's like saying, oh, yeah, we have 00:09:03.340 --> 00:09:05.470 a McDonald's, everything's set up to do McDonald's. 00:09:05.470 --> 00:09:06.360 But look at Chipotle. 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:08.870 How do we make McDonald's, the burger, be Chipotle, right? 00:09:08.870 --> 00:09:10.930 It's like you really can't change one system 00:09:10.930 --> 00:09:12.160 to a whole new one. 00:09:12.160 --> 00:09:14.243 What you do is you have to make Chipotle, and then 00:09:14.243 --> 00:09:15.600 make Chipotle a poppin' chain. 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:16.100 [LAUGHTER] 00:09:16.100 --> 00:09:17.808 You have to go and make the next system-- 00:09:17.808 --> 00:09:18.720 SPEAKER 2: Poppin'? 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:19.135 MARTIN: Yeah. 00:09:19.135 --> 00:09:20.960 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I'm going to use this metaphor, Martin. 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:21.820 It's good. 00:09:21.820 --> 00:09:22.950 MARTIN: I mean, because people are freaking out. 00:09:22.950 --> 00:09:25.270 It's like, this hamburger just can't be a burrito. 00:09:25.270 --> 00:09:27.250 And I'm like, why? 00:09:27.250 --> 00:09:28.630 Well, the whole infrastructure is 00:09:28.630 --> 00:09:30.195 made to make hamburgers, right? 00:09:30.195 --> 00:09:32.487 STEPH: Well, see, and I think that at the heart of what 00:09:32.487 --> 00:09:34.990 you're saying, to sort of elucidate where I'm coming 00:09:34.990 --> 00:09:37.380 from in asking this question, there 00:09:37.380 --> 00:09:41.530 is an education professor who I grew close to during my time 00:09:41.530 --> 00:09:45.430 at Wellesley, who in his first year of his PhD program, 00:09:45.430 --> 00:09:49.090 his advisor posed to everyone, if you had the option, 00:09:49.090 --> 00:09:52.150 would you blow up the education system and start again 00:09:52.150 --> 00:09:55.240 or would you change it incrementally? 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:59.450 And his answer was blow it up and start over. 00:09:59.450 --> 00:10:00.860 But we don't have that option. 00:10:00.860 --> 00:10:04.247 We don't have the privilege of bringing in the Chipotles 00:10:04.247 --> 00:10:05.830 and then seeing if they work, and then 00:10:05.830 --> 00:10:08.620 adopting all the McDonald's to suit that consumer market, 00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:10.000 right? 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:12.415 We very much recognize that students are humans 00:10:12.415 --> 00:10:17.590 and that humans have a very particular ethic consideration 00:10:17.590 --> 00:10:19.690 than do technologies or other kinds of research 00:10:19.690 --> 00:10:21.530 and development projects. 00:10:21.530 --> 00:10:25.600 So if we are to meet the kinds of goals 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:28.330 that Goldin and Katz and Bamol and Freeman 00:10:28.330 --> 00:10:33.220 are advocating for in improving our education system, 00:10:33.220 --> 00:10:36.100 how do we deal with the fact that these are human lives 00:10:36.100 --> 00:10:39.578 with whom we are experimenting? 00:10:39.578 --> 00:10:40.995 MARTIN: I think it's a good point, 00:10:40.995 --> 00:10:42.330 but I'm not talking about that. 00:10:42.330 --> 00:10:43.830 What I'm trying to say is like, what 00:10:43.830 --> 00:10:45.038 are we defining as education? 00:10:45.038 --> 00:10:46.500 Are we defining education as I want 00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:49.350 people to know math and science really well to communicate it, 00:10:49.350 --> 00:10:51.350 to think innovatively in it? 00:10:51.350 --> 00:10:53.700 Or are we defining it as like, we're going to get out 00:10:53.700 --> 00:10:55.440 of a four-year college, right? 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:56.970 So I think a lot this argument is, 00:10:56.970 --> 00:10:58.890 the current infrastructure or the relationship 00:10:58.890 --> 00:11:01.130 for the last 100 years has been colleges. 00:11:01.130 --> 00:11:03.188 So we define education as graduating a college. 00:11:03.188 --> 00:11:05.730 But if you make it as, I want to make the best, most educated 00:11:05.730 --> 00:11:08.970 person with all my tools right now, 00:11:08.970 --> 00:11:12.090 and being able to import them into society well, 00:11:12.090 --> 00:11:13.560 in terms of into jobs really well, 00:11:13.560 --> 00:11:15.510 how would we make that ideal system? 00:11:15.510 --> 00:11:16.780 You start making that system. 00:11:16.780 --> 00:11:19.860 And it's not going to change overnight, right? 00:11:19.860 --> 00:11:22.830 You don't grow up two years old and the next day you're-- 00:11:22.830 --> 00:11:25.340 I mean, there is the movie 13 Going on 30, 00:11:25.340 --> 00:11:28.012 but it's very rare, right? 00:11:28.012 --> 00:11:29.400 [LAUGHTER] 00:11:29.400 --> 00:11:31.950 So I think it's you start making the new system 00:11:31.950 --> 00:11:33.845 and you kind of start to pour over. 00:11:33.845 --> 00:11:35.220 There's a whole issue with trying 00:11:35.220 --> 00:11:37.350 to change a current system, because they're already 00:11:37.350 --> 00:11:38.200 playing-- 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:40.735 well, this happens with later, mature markets. 00:11:40.735 --> 00:11:43.110 What happens is there's going to be three or four or five 00:11:43.110 --> 00:11:43.630 players, right? 00:11:43.630 --> 00:11:45.088 So when we talk about institutions, 00:11:45.088 --> 00:11:46.740 we have Harvard, MIT, Stanford. 00:11:46.740 --> 00:11:47.850 They're trying to fight against each other, 00:11:47.850 --> 00:11:48.930 because they don't want to-- 00:11:48.930 --> 00:11:50.972 it's hard to be different when we have to compete 00:11:50.972 --> 00:11:52.350 against someone like that. 00:11:52.350 --> 00:11:54.507 And so they have to play their games. 00:11:54.507 --> 00:11:57.090 The reason an innovator can come in is because they don't have 00:11:57.090 --> 00:11:59.730 to play that keeping-up-with-the-Joneses 00:11:59.730 --> 00:12:01.410 games. 00:12:01.410 --> 00:12:02.090 That's my point. 00:12:02.090 --> 00:12:03.460 SPEAKER 2: You're throwing out a lot of metaphors. 00:12:03.460 --> 00:12:03.960 [LAUGHTER] 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:05.900 STEPH: Yeah, [INAUDIBLE],, Chipotle-- 00:12:05.900 --> 00:12:07.070 [LAUGHTER] 00:12:07.070 --> 00:12:08.920 LILY: 13 Going on 30. 00:12:08.920 --> 00:12:10.920 MARTIN: So there's a whole book on communication 00:12:10.920 --> 00:12:12.030 where it's like, if you make-- 00:12:12.030 --> 00:12:13.680 I could explain it in a super technical way, 00:12:13.680 --> 00:12:14.410 but you're not going to get it. 00:12:14.410 --> 00:12:15.210 And I can say something like that, 00:12:15.210 --> 00:12:16.543 and you'll be like, OK, kind of. 00:12:16.543 --> 00:12:17.918 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Well, we're-- 00:12:17.918 --> 00:12:18.585 [LAUGHTER] 00:12:18.585 --> 00:12:20.752 MARTIN: The other thing is that you won't forget it, 00:12:20.752 --> 00:12:23.680 because it's so out there, that you're like, OK, OK-- 00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:24.730 SPEAKER 1: Chipotle. 00:12:24.730 --> 00:12:26.730 MARTIN: You guys are going to remember the three 00:12:26.730 --> 00:12:27.480 points, right? 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:28.313 SPEAKER 2: Well, no. 00:12:28.313 --> 00:12:32.070 I remember that Chipotle versus McDonald's was discussed. 00:12:32.070 --> 00:12:32.990 I don't know-- 00:12:32.990 --> 00:12:33.690 MARTIN: OK. 00:12:33.690 --> 00:12:34.080 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Well, you know, 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:35.580 let me say something here too, which 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:38.970 is that we are going to dig into the textbook reading on legacy 00:12:38.970 --> 00:12:41.880 sectors, because there's no question, 00:12:41.880 --> 00:12:44.910 but education, and higher education in particular, 00:12:44.910 --> 00:12:46.560 are legacy systems. 00:12:46.560 --> 00:12:49.920 And the whole issue of how do you bring change 00:12:49.920 --> 00:12:52.690 into legacy systems is kind of an underlying theme here. 00:12:52.690 --> 00:12:55.218 So I'm glad we're right at the brink of trying 00:12:55.218 --> 00:12:56.010 to figure this out. 00:12:58.950 --> 00:13:07.770 I guess I would posit that the meaning of Freeman's reading 00:13:07.770 --> 00:13:11.970 for us, I think, was that there are real economic consequences 00:13:11.970 --> 00:13:15.840 to your leadership in the science and engineering talent 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:16.680 base. 00:13:16.680 --> 00:13:22.680 And that Katz and Goldin take us to kind of a next step 00:13:22.680 --> 00:13:28.590 and enable us to address a larger set of societal problems 00:13:28.590 --> 00:13:32.350 and tie it significantly to the education system. 00:13:32.350 --> 00:13:34.200 In other words, the growing problem 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:36.090 of the polarization of our society 00:13:36.090 --> 00:13:38.370 and the growing income inequality 00:13:38.370 --> 00:13:43.130 in our society that will affect the quality of the democracy, 00:13:43.130 --> 00:13:49.830 and probably already is, that's very much tied to these curves 00:13:49.830 --> 00:13:54.480 here and what portion of the population 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.360 we're moving onto that upward technology 00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.640 curve and what portion of the population 00:13:59.640 --> 00:14:00.660 we're leaving behind. 00:14:00.660 --> 00:14:06.040 That's the meaning of that crossover point in the 1970s. 00:14:06.040 --> 00:14:08.910 And what are the policies that would really 00:14:08.910 --> 00:14:12.090 address trying to get those lines back 00:14:12.090 --> 00:14:13.250 into parallel, right? 00:14:13.250 --> 00:14:15.270 Because that seems to be a pretty important 00:14:15.270 --> 00:14:16.980 societal problem. 00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:20.940 So Freeman identifies a set of economic issues 00:14:20.940 --> 00:14:23.460 that draw us to be concerned with the science 00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:25.650 and engineering talent base. 00:14:25.650 --> 00:14:28.740 And Katz and Goldin tell us, by the way, 00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:32.250 there are very deep societal well-being 00:14:32.250 --> 00:14:36.340 problems that are tied to the education system as well. 00:14:36.340 --> 00:14:42.720 And then Bamol points to us and says, 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:46.380 by the way, these folks are studying the higher education 00:14:46.380 --> 00:14:50.100 system, but that's not the only route here. 00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:51.990 We have to understand this other dimension 00:14:51.990 --> 00:14:53.730 if you want to introduce innovation 00:14:53.730 --> 00:14:57.030 into the overall economy. 00:14:57.030 --> 00:14:59.260 Education for incremental advance 00:14:59.260 --> 00:15:02.310 is probably not the only system we ought to be worried about. 00:15:02.310 --> 00:15:05.550 And that's kind of what Steph's round of questions 00:15:05.550 --> 00:15:09.060 here was driving at, I think, if I've interpreted you right, 00:15:09.060 --> 00:15:12.840 which is what is that more disruptive education 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:15.810 system that we have to contemplate here 00:15:15.810 --> 00:15:18.570 if we want to educate not only for incremental advance, 00:15:18.570 --> 00:15:21.082 but for true innovation as well? 00:15:21.082 --> 00:15:23.170 Is that fair? 00:15:23.170 --> 00:15:24.670 Sort of. 00:15:24.670 --> 00:15:25.660 STEPH: Yeah. 00:15:25.660 --> 00:15:32.590 I think if I were to have one last maybe point or question, 00:15:32.590 --> 00:15:33.940 I would ask if any of you read-- 00:15:33.940 --> 00:15:35.565 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah, why don't you 00:15:35.565 --> 00:15:37.142 make some key points in your mind 00:15:37.142 --> 00:15:38.350 about what these pieces mean. 00:15:38.350 --> 00:15:39.700 You just heard my version, but-- 00:15:39.700 --> 00:15:40.990 STEPH: Yeah. 00:15:40.990 --> 00:15:44.410 So I guess I last started off with a straw poll. 00:15:44.410 --> 00:15:46.540 As you know, I favor these. 00:15:46.540 --> 00:15:49.360 How many of you have heard or read Pedagogy of the Oppressed 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:50.460 by Paulo Freire? 00:15:53.350 --> 00:15:56.063 Do you know what pedagogy means? 00:15:56.063 --> 00:15:57.980 LILY: Maybe Martin can explain it to us with-- 00:15:57.980 --> 00:15:59.337 [LAUGHTER] 00:15:59.337 --> 00:16:01.795 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I'm going to rely on Lily for this one. 00:16:01.795 --> 00:16:02.295 STEPH: Yeah. 00:16:05.670 --> 00:16:08.692 So was there anyone who had read Pedagogy of the Oppressed? 00:16:08.692 --> 00:16:10.150 Have any of you ever taken a course 00:16:10.150 --> 00:16:13.818 in education, education policy? 00:16:13.818 --> 00:16:15.610 How many of you have very strong feelings-- 00:16:15.610 --> 00:16:16.600 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Except for this course, of course. 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:17.850 STEPH: Except for this course. 00:16:17.850 --> 00:16:25.270 How many of you feel like you're stakeholders in a conversation 00:16:25.270 --> 00:16:28.570 about the change in national education policy or in state 00:16:28.570 --> 00:16:29.760 education policy? 00:16:29.760 --> 00:16:31.510 SPEAKER 2: OK, I think we found something. 00:16:31.510 --> 00:16:32.230 STEPH: OK. 00:16:32.230 --> 00:16:35.440 Who feels like they're a stakeholder in the education 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:36.487 policy realm? 00:16:36.487 --> 00:16:37.820 SPEAKER 2: I mean, don't we all? 00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:39.370 MARTIN: A stake stakeholder or active stakeholder? 00:16:39.370 --> 00:16:40.787 STEPH: Like an active stakeholder, 00:16:40.787 --> 00:16:45.040 like you're willing to show up to Congress, to go to protests, 00:16:45.040 --> 00:16:49.900 to talk to legislators, blah, blah blah, blah, blah. 00:16:49.900 --> 00:16:52.200 I mean, that kind of highlights, to me, 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:54.410 the divide between the kinds of stuff 00:16:54.410 --> 00:16:57.730 that Goldin, Katz, Bamol, Freemen, et cetera, 00:16:57.730 --> 00:16:59.680 are talking about. 00:16:59.680 --> 00:17:02.650 And this is, again, hinting at my issues 00:17:02.650 --> 00:17:04.920 with the way in which we teach social sciences. 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.579 That so much of the Socratic method, which is essentially 00:17:07.579 --> 00:17:09.700 Bill explaining to us what it is that we read 00:17:09.700 --> 00:17:12.460 and then having us flesh it out and debate 00:17:12.460 --> 00:17:14.560 in a lively and analogical way. 00:17:18.252 --> 00:17:19.960 The Socratic method is to get us thinking 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.180 about what this means truly in implementation 00:17:22.180 --> 00:17:24.493 and how to grapple with theory. 00:17:24.493 --> 00:17:26.619 RASHID: I think, yeah, as you start 00:17:26.619 --> 00:17:30.850 bringing that up, it might have been maybe instructive for us 00:17:30.850 --> 00:17:33.790 to have a couple of readings by a couple of states who 00:17:33.790 --> 00:17:36.160 are grappling with education issues 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:39.550 and grappling with some issues, particularly those that 00:17:39.550 --> 00:17:41.680 are like, I am the lead administrator, 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:45.760 I'm in charge of the education for maybe the city of Chicago 00:17:45.760 --> 00:17:48.520 versus the state of Illinois, and how they're actually 00:17:48.520 --> 00:17:52.565 going about grappling with these public institutions trying 00:17:52.565 --> 00:17:53.590 to change these things. 00:17:53.590 --> 00:17:54.910 Because it's really nice to kind of look 00:17:54.910 --> 00:17:56.452 at the macroscopic level and be like, 00:17:56.452 --> 00:17:58.910 OK, we're not graduating enough [INAUDIBLE] science 00:17:58.910 --> 00:17:59.650 and engineers. 00:17:59.650 --> 00:18:01.468 But in reality, education, as we said, 00:18:01.468 --> 00:18:03.760 because we have this really distributed model in the US 00:18:03.760 --> 00:18:06.370 compared to Sweden, it's like, I'm 00:18:06.370 --> 00:18:09.220 looking at this not only community college by community 00:18:09.220 --> 00:18:10.450 college, but state by state. 00:18:10.450 --> 00:18:16.330 And that's how folks sort of interact with these education 00:18:16.330 --> 00:18:17.090 issues. 00:18:17.090 --> 00:18:18.550 And I think maybe to Steph's point 00:18:18.550 --> 00:18:20.997 and what I'm trying to get from her is like, 00:18:20.997 --> 00:18:23.080 you have these active stakeholders that are really 00:18:23.080 --> 00:18:26.800 involved in their small pools and might 00:18:26.800 --> 00:18:30.528 have a little bit more of an effect or a lot more ideas 00:18:30.528 --> 00:18:32.320 on how to innovate within their small pools 00:18:32.320 --> 00:18:35.230 to get to this state where we want 00:18:35.230 --> 00:18:37.060 breakthrough education in addition 00:18:37.060 --> 00:18:38.770 to incremental advances. 00:18:38.770 --> 00:18:41.890 And so I think my recommendation would be, 00:18:41.890 --> 00:18:44.543 is there someone maybe in this Pedagogy of the Oppressed book 00:18:44.543 --> 00:18:46.210 they could offer an alternative opinion. 00:18:46.210 --> 00:18:50.210 Are there folks who do education professionally 00:18:50.210 --> 00:18:51.960 and who do educational administration-- do 00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:54.043 they have these same thoughts and are they worried 00:18:54.043 --> 00:18:55.630 about these same things? 00:18:55.630 --> 00:18:57.700 And are they trying to look at these problems 00:18:57.700 --> 00:18:58.978 at the same level? 00:18:58.978 --> 00:19:00.520 STEPH: And are their opinions-- and I 00:19:00.520 --> 00:19:02.860 think this is a crucial point for me-- 00:19:02.860 --> 00:19:04.660 are their opinions respected? 00:19:04.660 --> 00:19:08.568 Because a PhD from the Stanford Graduate School of Education 00:19:08.568 --> 00:19:10.360 or the Harvard Graduate School of Education 00:19:10.360 --> 00:19:12.230 does not mean the same things to most people 00:19:12.230 --> 00:19:15.670 as a PhD in material science from those same institutions. 00:19:15.670 --> 00:19:17.620 And that concerns me, right? 00:19:17.620 --> 00:19:19.840 Because if it's the individuals-- 00:19:19.840 --> 00:19:23.230 there's also, I guess, an undercurrent in education, 00:19:23.230 --> 00:19:26.230 and we have mentioned it before in this class, of those who 00:19:26.230 --> 00:19:28.640 can do, those who can't teach. 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.970 And it is that sort of point of disrespect 00:19:30.970 --> 00:19:33.370 that we got at at the beginning of class 00:19:33.370 --> 00:19:37.840 that I think merits far more consideration by this group 00:19:37.840 --> 00:19:41.830 than do perhaps the contents of the economics readings 00:19:41.830 --> 00:19:42.558 by Romer. 00:19:42.558 --> 00:19:44.350 Because if we, ourselves, are not convinced 00:19:44.350 --> 00:19:46.240 that teaching is a worthwhile profession 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:47.890 and that the education of young people 00:19:47.890 --> 00:19:53.590 is a worthwhile activity, then who can be convinced of that 00:19:53.590 --> 00:19:56.170 if we are involved and invested in the promotion 00:19:56.170 --> 00:19:58.930 of more equitable education of science and technology? 00:19:58.930 --> 00:20:00.820 Because we know that that's the key 00:20:00.820 --> 00:20:05.350 to driving economic growth, and also prosperity 00:20:05.350 --> 00:20:07.570 and decreasing inequality. 00:20:07.570 --> 00:20:09.160 And so that's why to me, when Bill 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:12.130 says that Goldin and Katz are talking about what 00:20:12.130 --> 00:20:15.280 are the policies that would address us getting back 00:20:15.280 --> 00:20:19.030 to a more equitable economic system, to me 00:20:19.030 --> 00:20:21.580 it's not about policies, it's about culture. 00:20:21.580 --> 00:20:23.590 It's about our perceptions of other people 00:20:23.590 --> 00:20:25.590 and what they are doing with their lives 00:20:25.590 --> 00:20:29.490 and about our distancing of ourselves as, 00:20:29.490 --> 00:20:32.160 but that's not my issue, that's not my problem, right? 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.850 So I think it's unfair and a little bit intellectually 00:20:35.850 --> 00:20:40.560 irresponsible of us to claim that distance while also 00:20:40.560 --> 00:20:41.970 critiquing it. 00:20:41.970 --> 00:20:44.880 So I would posit to all of you that, 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.450 if you have time in the next maybe two or three years 00:20:48.450 --> 00:20:51.060 to pick up this book, Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Freire-- 00:20:51.060 --> 00:20:52.530 MARTIN: What's the book about? 00:20:52.530 --> 00:20:54.750 STEPH: It's about the education system in Brazil 00:20:54.750 --> 00:20:59.040 and about the ways in which students have been disregarded 00:20:59.040 --> 00:21:03.360 by the system and conceived of as passive recipients 00:21:03.360 --> 00:21:06.830 of knowledge rather than as active learners. 00:21:06.830 --> 00:21:09.860 And the metaphor that he utilizes 00:21:09.860 --> 00:21:13.155 is that they're receptacles, and that we dump in knowledge, 00:21:13.155 --> 00:21:15.030 and then we expect them to regurgitate it out 00:21:15.030 --> 00:21:16.940 and to be able to apply it in the field. 00:21:16.940 --> 00:21:18.940 Where as his understanding of pedagogy, 00:21:18.940 --> 00:21:21.440 which is the study of teaching and the study of learning, 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:23.815 is that individuals have to grapple with something. 00:21:23.815 --> 00:21:25.440 And that's sort of at the heart of what 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:29.670 Lily will be talking about in the MITx reading, 00:21:29.670 --> 00:21:32.340 when they start talking about Seymour Papert, who 00:21:32.340 --> 00:21:35.970 was a brilliant professor and researcher at MIT who created 00:21:35.970 --> 00:21:41.730 the field of constructionism, which is the study of something 00:21:41.730 --> 00:21:43.260 by doing the something. 00:21:43.260 --> 00:21:46.170 And that is actually being very widely adopted 00:21:46.170 --> 00:21:49.590 in Southeast Asia in countries like Singapore and Thailand, 00:21:49.590 --> 00:21:52.740 who are experiencing momentous economic advances 00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:55.240 in the research and development sector. 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:58.440 So I think very much pedagogy and considerations 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:00.420 of culture become really relevant 00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:02.897 when we talk about education. 00:22:02.897 --> 00:22:04.980 LILY: Well, I think we need to get back to dollars 00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:05.522 here, though. 00:22:05.522 --> 00:22:10.350 Because if you're head of household, single parent, 00:22:10.350 --> 00:22:12.455 or single-income family-- 00:22:12.455 --> 00:22:15.660 who in here thinks that you can have a family on a K 00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:17.910 through 12 teacher's salary? 00:22:17.910 --> 00:22:18.450 You can't. 00:22:18.450 --> 00:22:20.070 And even if you're-- 00:22:20.070 --> 00:22:23.790 yes, the average K through 12 teacher salary is higher 00:22:23.790 --> 00:22:28.620 in, say, Los Angeles than it is in central Illinois or rural 00:22:28.620 --> 00:22:31.380 parts of the US, so they compensate for living expenses, 00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:35.240 but you still cannot be single parent head of household on K 00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:36.080 through 12 salary. 00:22:36.080 --> 00:22:40.622 So sure, you can think that K through 12 education 00:22:40.622 --> 00:22:43.080 needs to be reformed, you can be passionate about teaching. 00:22:43.080 --> 00:22:46.690 But if you are financially responsible for a family unit, 00:22:46.690 --> 00:22:48.900 you can't be a teacher in K through 12. 00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:51.420 It doesn't matter how much you care about it. 00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:53.712 MARTIN: There's a part from the reading that was like-- 00:22:53.712 --> 00:22:56.278 I think they needed 50 hours to get a $1,000 or something 00:22:56.278 --> 00:22:57.333 like that [INAUDIBLE]. 00:22:57.333 --> 00:22:59.750 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So I'll tell you what I'm going to do. 00:22:59.750 --> 00:23:02.430 I'm going to push us, so we can get out of here 00:23:02.430 --> 00:23:04.880 at a reasonable time level. 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:09.410 I'm going to do the last reading from our textbook, 00:23:09.410 --> 00:23:14.140 and then come back to the MITx reading. 00:23:14.140 --> 00:23:15.890 MARTIN: Yeah, we need more graphics, Bill, 00:23:15.890 --> 00:23:17.570 because all these have been so great. 00:23:17.570 --> 00:23:20.870 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I figured I'd put myself up here. 00:23:20.870 --> 00:23:23.790 MARTIN: Did you get Michael [INAUDIBLE] to do it? 00:23:23.790 --> 00:23:24.890 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I had to really struggle with this, 00:23:24.890 --> 00:23:26.006 Martin, I can tell you. 00:23:26.006 --> 00:23:28.400 [LAUGHTER] 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:35.330 So, look, here's what's different. 00:23:35.330 --> 00:23:38.990 So new technology innovations are 00:23:38.990 --> 00:23:42.550 very slow to enter legacy sectors, right? 00:23:42.550 --> 00:23:45.740 Remember discussing energy? 00:23:45.740 --> 00:23:47.630 We invented fire-- 00:23:47.630 --> 00:23:49.810 I don't know how many millions of years that took. 00:23:49.810 --> 00:23:51.380 Then, we burned trees. 00:23:51.380 --> 00:23:52.915 We did that for a millenia. 00:23:52.915 --> 00:23:55.040 RASHID: I think the word invented was hastily used. 00:23:55.040 --> 00:23:56.518 [LAUGHTER] 00:23:56.518 --> 00:23:57.310 MARTIN: Discovered. 00:23:57.310 --> 00:23:59.360 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:23:59.360 --> 00:24:02.470 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Shall we say lightning struck, right? 00:24:02.470 --> 00:24:05.210 And we moved to coal, right? 00:24:05.210 --> 00:24:08.330 Moved to coal, and then we moved to oil. 00:24:08.330 --> 00:24:10.820 And that's about as far as we've gotten, essentially, 00:24:10.820 --> 00:24:11.570 since that time. 00:24:11.570 --> 00:24:12.860 SPEAKER 2: I mean, the rate of adoption 00:24:12.860 --> 00:24:13.880 has increased exponentially. 00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:14.963 So I think we're doing OK. 00:24:14.963 --> 00:24:16.880 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yes, compared to wood. 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:18.835 MARTIN: The population, too, has gone up. 00:24:18.835 --> 00:24:20.210 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So similarly, 00:24:20.210 --> 00:24:22.970 another legacy sector, higher education. 00:24:22.970 --> 00:24:27.432 What was the last really big reform in education? 00:24:27.432 --> 00:24:28.140 So we went from-- 00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:29.810 STEPH: Allowing women to participate. 00:24:29.810 --> 00:24:30.495 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Well, that was an advance. 00:24:30.495 --> 00:24:31.703 There's no question about it. 00:24:31.703 --> 00:24:37.460 But we had the platonic academy, and then 00:24:37.460 --> 00:24:41.990 a momentous breakthrough around 1500 years later-- 00:24:41.990 --> 00:24:43.940 we came up with the book. 00:24:43.940 --> 00:24:46.340 That was clearly a great breakthrough. 00:24:46.340 --> 00:24:47.990 That's, from a technological advance 00:24:47.990 --> 00:24:53.780 period, that's about it, until we finally figured out 00:24:53.780 --> 00:24:55.560 how to use this kind of stuff. 00:24:55.560 --> 00:24:59.300 And we're starting to figure out how to bring that IT 00:24:59.300 --> 00:25:00.630 revolution into the classroom. 00:25:00.630 --> 00:25:05.030 So that presents-- if the issue is bringing change 00:25:05.030 --> 00:25:07.880 into this system, technology, obviously, 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:09.980 can be a change driver. 00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:12.620 And that's an interesting story. 00:25:12.620 --> 00:25:15.800 That's not the only change and reform story, 00:25:15.800 --> 00:25:18.240 as you just pointed out, Steph. 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.150 There's other important changes that have to be considered. 00:25:21.150 --> 00:25:25.790 But really, within the last five, six years, 00:25:25.790 --> 00:25:32.090 we've actually seen the entry of IT-type tools 00:25:32.090 --> 00:25:38.480 into the classroom setting with potential momentous change. 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:41.960 So there's an open question here about whether MOOCs 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:45.200 and online education are going to be a disruptive innovation 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:47.660 and whether they will disrupt higher education 00:25:47.660 --> 00:25:49.640 and substitute-- 00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:51.420 in effect, create a new model. 00:25:51.420 --> 00:25:57.390 Is this a Chipotle replaces McDonald's kind of approach? 00:25:57.390 --> 00:26:00.770 See, I told you I'd still hear your metaphor, Martin. 00:26:00.770 --> 00:26:04.790 And how will higher education respond? 00:26:04.790 --> 00:26:07.250 Will it respond with a blended model? 00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:11.580 Or will it attempt to keep its existing model? 00:26:11.580 --> 00:26:13.820 So we'll talk about that for a minute. 00:26:13.820 --> 00:26:20.272 As we've seen, universities present a deep problem 00:26:20.272 --> 00:26:21.980 for this kind of disruption, because they 00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:23.060 are legacy sectors. 00:26:23.060 --> 00:26:25.880 And like all legacy sectors, they 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:30.590 tended to resist disruptive change. 00:26:30.590 --> 00:26:34.250 Institutions of higher education conduct 00:26:34.250 --> 00:26:36.410 almost no R&D on education itself-- 00:26:36.410 --> 00:26:37.640 almost none. 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:38.930 It's astonishing. 00:26:38.930 --> 00:26:40.692 The services sector, generally, are not 00:26:40.692 --> 00:26:42.650 particularly good at this, but higher education 00:26:42.650 --> 00:26:45.380 may lead the pack. 00:26:45.380 --> 00:26:47.420 There are very perverse pricing issues 00:26:47.420 --> 00:26:50.330 in higher education, as you all are paying tuition 00:26:50.330 --> 00:26:53.060 at the moment understand. 00:26:53.060 --> 00:26:56.120 It's a very decentralized model. 00:26:56.120 --> 00:27:01.310 It's very hard to spread change and spread new ideas, 00:27:01.310 --> 00:27:03.710 to transition new ideas, because this 00:27:03.710 --> 00:27:06.690 is a very decentralized system. 00:27:06.690 --> 00:27:09.920 In legacy sector terms, there's a collective action problem. 00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:12.710 How do you get collective action across literally thousands 00:27:12.710 --> 00:27:13.400 of institutions? 00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:15.692 And I'm just focused on higher education at this point. 00:27:15.692 --> 00:27:18.950 There's a whole additional story for online 00:27:18.950 --> 00:27:22.650 and the K through 12 sector. 00:27:22.650 --> 00:27:23.330 What's happened? 00:27:23.330 --> 00:27:28.140 You all are familiar with edX, the entry of a nonprofit model 00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:28.640 here. 00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:31.670 And frankly, I have to give tremendous credit 00:27:31.670 --> 00:27:34.250 to Rafael Reif, because I never thought universities 00:27:34.250 --> 00:27:37.735 themselves would originate potentially disruptive changes 00:27:37.735 --> 00:27:38.360 for themselves. 00:27:38.360 --> 00:27:40.670 That kind of violates my rule set. 00:27:40.670 --> 00:27:45.590 But Rafael basically, personally, 00:27:45.590 --> 00:27:49.250 drove a fair amount of this. 00:27:49.250 --> 00:27:55.940 And his background-- he was a poor kid growing up 00:27:55.940 --> 00:28:01.040 in Venezuela and from a family that had not sent children 00:28:01.040 --> 00:28:02.000 to college. 00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:07.850 And he managed to get to go to the technical college 00:28:07.850 --> 00:28:09.592 in Venezuela. 00:28:09.592 --> 00:28:11.050 It was a real breakthrough for him. 00:28:11.050 --> 00:28:16.610 And ends up at MIT through a series of miracles 00:28:16.610 --> 00:28:20.450 and becomes president. 00:28:20.450 --> 00:28:24.200 And he thinks all the time about that community 00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:26.120 that he left behind. 00:28:26.120 --> 00:28:30.020 I know from knowing him and conversations with him 00:28:30.020 --> 00:28:33.140 just how he saw this online education 00:28:33.140 --> 00:28:39.200 model as a remarkable new tool to get 00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:43.400 education and educational platforms everywhere. 00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:48.140 I mean, it is a remarkable new entrant possibility 00:28:48.140 --> 00:28:50.030 in education. 00:28:50.030 --> 00:28:52.100 And he did this, frankly. 00:28:52.100 --> 00:28:53.690 He drove the creation of edX. 00:28:53.690 --> 00:28:55.400 And there were corresponding examples 00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:59.400 coming out of Stanford Udacity and Coursera 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:00.770 in a comparable period. 00:29:00.770 --> 00:29:02.750 But he wanted to do a nonprofit model, 00:29:02.750 --> 00:29:08.360 because he thought it would be better-geared to this mission 00:29:08.360 --> 00:29:10.640 of significantly improving education everywhere, 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.900 that a new tool set would be at hand. 00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:15.890 Suppose kids like him growing up on sandlot baseball 00:29:15.890 --> 00:29:23.990 lots in Venezuela could have had access to MIT courses, right? 00:29:23.990 --> 00:29:26.060 What would that be like? 00:29:26.060 --> 00:29:30.290 So that was his story, and that's the story 00:29:30.290 --> 00:29:33.380 behind the creation of edX. 00:29:33.380 --> 00:29:37.520 And the nonprofit model enables certain kinds of things. 00:29:37.520 --> 00:29:39.800 A for-profit model enables other things. 00:29:39.800 --> 00:29:42.290 But one of the interesting features of edX 00:29:42.290 --> 00:29:44.450 is that it is an open-source model. 00:29:44.450 --> 00:29:46.970 It's an open-source technology platform. 00:29:46.970 --> 00:29:49.580 And people contribute and constantly build up 00:29:49.580 --> 00:29:52.600 the quality of the technology behind the model. 00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:56.270 It's harder to do that in a for-profit kind of approach. 00:29:56.270 --> 00:29:59.120 It's still finding its way towards a business model, 00:29:59.120 --> 00:30:00.380 and we'll talk about it. 00:30:00.380 --> 00:30:03.830 The other major MOOC providers are listed here. 00:30:03.830 --> 00:30:06.050 You're familiar with them. 00:30:06.050 --> 00:30:09.560 They're on for-profit models. 00:30:09.560 --> 00:30:12.920 The political world took a look at these MOOCs 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:17.260 and had different ideological reactions. 00:30:17.260 --> 00:30:19.310 On the right, to some extent, they 00:30:19.310 --> 00:30:22.340 saw an opportunity of these free online educational courses 00:30:22.340 --> 00:30:24.890 as an opportunity to get rid of these pesky left-wing 00:30:24.890 --> 00:30:29.450 universities that are constantly training the wrong people. 00:30:29.450 --> 00:30:32.630 On the left, there was a sense that, oh, we can finally 00:30:32.630 --> 00:30:36.740 get rid of tuition, have the Bernie Sanders free tuition 00:30:36.740 --> 00:30:40.130 dream, because online education doesn't cost anything, 00:30:40.130 --> 00:30:43.520 and we'll just do that. 00:30:43.520 --> 00:30:46.730 Obviously, that's a little bit of magical thinking here 00:30:46.730 --> 00:30:48.440 on both sides. 00:30:48.440 --> 00:30:50.030 But states have begun passing laws, 00:30:50.030 --> 00:30:52.940 doing things like requiring $10,000 BAs 00:30:52.940 --> 00:30:57.540 and comparable kinds of issues. 00:30:57.540 --> 00:30:59.990 But the deep question here is, what's 00:30:59.990 --> 00:31:02.510 going to happen to the residential campus? 00:31:02.510 --> 00:31:05.930 Is online just going to displace this whole thing? 00:31:05.930 --> 00:31:07.820 And if not, why not? 00:31:07.820 --> 00:31:14.810 So online, I think as all of you understand, 00:31:14.810 --> 00:31:17.410 it can do some things really well. 00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:19.640 It's a whole new tool set for visualization, 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:21.830 for representation. 00:31:21.830 --> 00:31:24.050 It offers incredible opportunities 00:31:24.050 --> 00:31:30.260 for reinforcement and assessment that a lecture can't do. 00:31:30.260 --> 00:31:34.700 You can use feedback loops and repetition 00:31:34.700 --> 00:31:40.760 to do continuous assessment, which there's 00:31:40.760 --> 00:31:45.140 no way your standard college and university lecture class can 00:31:45.140 --> 00:31:47.190 ever replicate those kinds of capabilities, 00:31:47.190 --> 00:31:49.020 and they're pretty important. 00:31:49.020 --> 00:31:53.180 So online is going to have some features that are better 00:31:53.180 --> 00:31:56.570 than what lectures can do. 00:31:56.570 --> 00:32:01.670 And then, potentially, if you move the lecture online, 00:32:01.670 --> 00:32:03.170 then you can free up your classroom 00:32:03.170 --> 00:32:06.860 for much more interchange and interpersonal kinds 00:32:06.860 --> 00:32:11.750 of communication and more of the learning 00:32:11.750 --> 00:32:15.440 by doing opportunities that Steph was suggesting. 00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:22.940 So maybe it frees up what the classroom could become. 00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:27.500 Now, vital educational elements remain face-to-face. 00:32:27.500 --> 00:32:32.360 At least at the moment, online can't replicate these. 00:32:32.360 --> 00:32:36.410 So oral expression, oral presentation, 00:32:36.410 --> 00:32:41.000 advocacy skills, the way in which 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:42.740 you have to organize your expertise 00:32:42.740 --> 00:32:47.360 to be able to speak about a subject area-- 00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:48.728 face-to-face can do this. 00:32:48.728 --> 00:32:51.020 It's really hard to do that effectively, at this point, 00:32:51.020 --> 00:32:53.290 with the technology online. 00:32:53.290 --> 00:32:59.260 Written analysis-- so far, online writing evaluation 00:32:59.260 --> 00:33:02.410 leaves a lot to be desired. 00:33:02.410 --> 00:33:05.050 Research-- look, in the end, you really 00:33:05.050 --> 00:33:08.860 do research on lab benches with colleagues. 00:33:08.860 --> 00:33:10.970 It's still quite face-to-face. 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:14.530 And you can replicate some of that through simulation 00:33:14.530 --> 00:33:17.260 and modeling, but a lot of it you can't. 00:33:17.260 --> 00:33:23.350 So there's a lot that probably needs to stay 00:33:23.350 --> 00:33:25.930 on the face-to-face side. 00:33:25.930 --> 00:33:29.350 So these kinds of skills. 00:33:29.350 --> 00:33:33.850 Learning requires a lot of human scaffolding for discourse, 00:33:33.850 --> 00:33:36.250 argumentation, mentoring, for making the case, 00:33:36.250 --> 00:33:39.970 for research, for making the conceptual leap. 00:33:39.970 --> 00:33:44.800 And a lot of what occurs in the classroom, the socialization 00:33:44.800 --> 00:33:48.750 process of the classroom drives a lot of learning-- 00:33:48.750 --> 00:33:51.940 the kind of back and forth, the kind of competition, 00:33:51.940 --> 00:33:53.710 the kind of connections between people, 00:33:53.710 --> 00:33:57.460 friendships that build, the kind of community feeling of a class 00:33:57.460 --> 00:33:58.630 comes together. 00:33:58.630 --> 00:34:02.585 Those are very powerful learning aids. 00:34:02.585 --> 00:34:04.210 These are very powerful learning tools. 00:34:04.210 --> 00:34:06.910 And obviously, you can't get that stuff 00:34:06.910 --> 00:34:10.360 sitting in a basement in front of a blue screen. 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:13.620 So the real question here is, how do you 00:34:13.620 --> 00:34:15.889 optimize the two sides? 00:34:15.889 --> 00:34:19.150 How do we let online do what it does best? 00:34:19.150 --> 00:34:22.600 And how do we let the face-to-face piece thrive 00:34:22.600 --> 00:34:24.699 and do more? 00:34:24.699 --> 00:34:27.639 That's really the opportunity that we now 00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:31.540 have, is to completely restructure education 00:34:31.540 --> 00:34:34.480 with a whole new tool set that, in turn, will 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.000 enable that face-to-face education to kind of rise 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:38.080 to a new level. 00:34:38.080 --> 00:34:39.010 That's the dream. 00:34:39.010 --> 00:34:40.150 That's the hope. 00:34:40.150 --> 00:34:43.000 That's the reform this potentially enables. 00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.520 So it's a human machine symbiosis, remember? 00:34:45.520 --> 00:34:47.590 It's JCR Licklider. 00:34:47.590 --> 00:34:51.040 Let the computer do what it's good, and let people 00:34:51.040 --> 00:34:54.010 do what they're good at, and you have a symbiosis of the two. 00:34:54.010 --> 00:34:56.770 That's what we could get in education now. 00:34:56.770 --> 00:34:59.120 That's the opportunity space. 00:34:59.120 --> 00:35:02.170 And that's a blended learning model. 00:35:02.170 --> 00:35:04.100 Now, the technology is going to change, 00:35:04.100 --> 00:35:08.302 and it's going to get better at some of these things. 00:35:08.302 --> 00:35:13.240 But that's an ongoing and extended process. 00:35:13.240 --> 00:35:15.550 What happens to the university? 00:35:15.550 --> 00:35:18.100 For a long time, newspaper journalists 00:35:18.100 --> 00:35:21.627 were writing articles, oh, ha, ha, 00:35:21.627 --> 00:35:23.210 what's going to happen to universities 00:35:23.210 --> 00:35:25.600 is what happened to us as journalists. 00:35:25.600 --> 00:35:28.720 All our newspapers went out of business essentially, right? 00:35:28.720 --> 00:35:29.350 Ha, ha. 00:35:29.350 --> 00:35:31.000 It's going to happen to you too, see? 00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:33.220 This online revolution is going to drive you under. 00:35:35.900 --> 00:35:38.990 It's problematic if we do that, because frankly, 00:35:38.990 --> 00:35:41.727 universities create the course content. 00:35:41.727 --> 00:35:43.810 They are fairly important institutions, after all, 00:35:43.810 --> 00:35:45.560 on the content side. 00:35:45.560 --> 00:35:48.890 They're research engines as well as teaching centers, 00:35:48.890 --> 00:35:51.560 so we kind of need that research in the American system 00:35:51.560 --> 00:35:54.260 and many other countries. 00:35:54.260 --> 00:35:56.965 We blend the research model and the teaching model, 00:35:56.965 --> 00:35:58.340 so that there's a lot of learning 00:35:58.340 --> 00:36:01.830 by doing, more so in the graduate education phase, 00:36:01.830 --> 00:36:04.800 but there's a lot of learning by doing in that system. 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:09.830 So you need these institutions for that stuff. 00:36:09.830 --> 00:36:15.620 And if you use the model to drive the university model 00:36:15.620 --> 00:36:19.700 under, you've got these underlying really deep kind 00:36:19.700 --> 00:36:21.640 of problems. 00:36:21.640 --> 00:36:23.390 So there's a question about whether or not 00:36:23.390 --> 00:36:24.395 universities will adapt. 00:36:29.035 --> 00:36:31.160 And part of that story is bringing learning science 00:36:31.160 --> 00:36:32.660 to online education, and we're going 00:36:32.660 --> 00:36:34.070 to get to that in just a minute. 00:36:36.980 --> 00:36:39.260 The online revolution does create 00:36:39.260 --> 00:36:40.360 incredible opportunities. 00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:42.830 We talked earlier about the possibility 00:36:42.830 --> 00:36:49.280 of worldwide availability of high-quality education. 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.847 It's not a blended model, but it's pretty good. 00:36:52.847 --> 00:36:53.930 It's pretty good material. 00:36:53.930 --> 00:36:56.300 You can learn a lot from it. 00:36:56.300 --> 00:36:59.780 That's a staggering new opportunity for education 00:36:59.780 --> 00:37:00.300 worldwide. 00:37:00.300 --> 00:37:05.000 And that's precisely why Rafael Reif pushed this effort. 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:07.270 That was the vision that he saw, frankly. 00:37:07.270 --> 00:37:07.770 Martin? 00:37:07.770 --> 00:37:08.320 MARTIN: OK. 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:10.418 So the US probably won't do a DARPA for education. 00:37:10.418 --> 00:37:12.460 But I was thinking a lot, especially when talking 00:37:12.460 --> 00:37:14.545 with this about JCR Licklider-- 00:37:14.545 --> 00:37:15.670 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Mm-hmm. 00:37:15.670 --> 00:37:16.580 MARTIN: Is that right? 00:37:16.580 --> 00:37:17.130 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah. 00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:18.797 MARTIN: I always want to say Licklicker. 00:37:18.797 --> 00:37:19.550 [LAUGHTER] 00:37:19.550 --> 00:37:22.130 So what if they did a little special institute 00:37:22.130 --> 00:37:24.350 that just focuses exactly on what the vision is? 00:37:24.350 --> 00:37:26.270 Because JCR focused a lot on the vision 00:37:26.270 --> 00:37:28.850 of what ARPANET would be, so the vision 00:37:28.850 --> 00:37:30.695 in an ideal education world. 00:37:30.695 --> 00:37:32.570 Which I know they have that as an initiative, 00:37:32.570 --> 00:37:35.390 but have that DARPA intensity with project managers 00:37:35.390 --> 00:37:37.250 and moving initiatives forward. 00:37:37.250 --> 00:37:38.430 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I mean, it's an interesting idea. 00:37:38.430 --> 00:37:40.130 And there was discussion of creating 00:37:40.130 --> 00:37:42.388 a DARPA within the Department of Education. 00:37:42.388 --> 00:37:44.930 I have to say, I was skeptical about whether that could work, 00:37:44.930 --> 00:37:48.140 because there's no real tradition of R&D 00:37:48.140 --> 00:37:49.790 in the Department of Education. 00:37:49.790 --> 00:37:52.310 It's really quite limited. 00:37:52.310 --> 00:37:54.290 And would they understand the model enough? 00:37:54.290 --> 00:37:57.620 Interestingly, today-- or yesterday-- 00:37:57.620 --> 00:38:01.130 DARPA issued a broad area announcement for, 00:38:01.130 --> 00:38:05.210 you guessed it, develop a learning machine 00:38:05.210 --> 00:38:07.160 for lifelong education. 00:38:07.160 --> 00:38:08.540 That's the challenge, right? 00:38:08.540 --> 00:38:11.850 So DARPA is now in this territory 00:38:11.850 --> 00:38:13.100 in some very interesting ways. 00:38:13.100 --> 00:38:15.590 And actually, the military is in this territory. 00:38:15.590 --> 00:38:19.610 The military has done more than any other organization by far 00:38:19.610 --> 00:38:24.290 to use computer gaming as a training tool, right? 00:38:24.290 --> 00:38:27.560 And computer gaming, as you all understand probably a lot 00:38:27.560 --> 00:38:33.850 better than I do, operates on an education kind of model. 00:38:33.850 --> 00:38:36.840 In other words, learning that game is a very complex process 00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:38.340 and is acquired over time. 00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:42.180 And a good game gets that flow right 00:38:42.180 --> 00:38:45.360 of helping introduce the new elements of the game to you 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:48.360 and the learning that the game requires in manageable steps, 00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:50.370 and then reinforcing that and reiterating 00:38:50.370 --> 00:38:53.615 or put you back in the feedback loops so that you get it, 00:38:53.615 --> 00:38:55.740 and then driving you to the next stage of the game. 00:38:55.740 --> 00:38:58.433 That's a very interesting potential educational tool. 00:38:58.433 --> 00:39:00.600 Probably some of the best work in the country that's 00:39:00.600 --> 00:39:02.640 being done on that is being done by Eric Klopfer 00:39:02.640 --> 00:39:06.060 here at MIT, who's developed a whole new set of education 00:39:06.060 --> 00:39:07.843 games for K through 12. 00:39:07.843 --> 00:39:10.260 I'm surprised that industry hasn't moved in on the sector. 00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:12.010 I think it's gradually starting to happen. 00:39:12.010 --> 00:39:15.300 But that's an interesting part of this story, 00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:19.170 because the only story here is not MOOCs. 00:39:19.170 --> 00:39:21.870 MOOCs came about because a whole bunch of computer nerds 00:39:21.870 --> 00:39:26.560 at places like MIT and Stanford saw, wait a minute, 00:39:26.560 --> 00:39:29.050 we got broadband around the world. 00:39:29.050 --> 00:39:30.780 We have a whole new delivery mechanism. 00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:32.550 We've got a whole new tool set. 00:39:32.550 --> 00:39:34.860 Let's do something. 00:39:34.860 --> 00:39:36.920 And they rushed to fill that void. 00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:42.320 And edX was created by folks out of our computer science 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:43.560 department. 00:39:43.560 --> 00:39:44.060 Rashid? 00:39:44.060 --> 00:39:44.560 Go ahead. 00:39:44.560 --> 00:39:45.733 RASHID: Yeah. 00:39:45.733 --> 00:39:46.900 So it might be instructive-- 00:39:46.900 --> 00:39:48.900 I'm going to go from past to present. 00:39:48.900 --> 00:39:51.497 But it might be instructive to take a look at, 00:39:51.497 --> 00:39:53.580 when we figured out the printing press was a thing 00:39:53.580 --> 00:39:55.530 and we could mass print books, who 00:39:55.530 --> 00:39:58.480 was the one who decided how do we change maybe 00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:01.200 from a Socratic teacher-student-apprentice 00:40:01.200 --> 00:40:05.580 relationship to teacher and then large lecture hall? 00:40:05.580 --> 00:40:07.890 What were the driving initiatives? 00:40:07.890 --> 00:40:10.140 Or who started with these large lecture 00:40:10.140 --> 00:40:15.060 halls and these same maybe Licklider-based vision 00:40:15.060 --> 00:40:17.940 for how is education going to look once I have a textbook? 00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:19.530 And so now, how is-- 00:40:19.530 --> 00:40:21.900 you need the same people to start taking a look at, 00:40:21.900 --> 00:40:25.800 how is education going to look in this blended learning model? 00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:27.300 And I don't know-- 00:40:27.300 --> 00:40:30.180 even if MIT or Stanford and all these people 00:40:30.180 --> 00:40:33.380 have any sort of idea of what that vision 00:40:33.380 --> 00:40:35.115 for that blended learning model is. 00:40:35.115 --> 00:40:36.490 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Well, I think 00:40:36.490 --> 00:40:39.180 we're starting to look at it in a pretty serious way here 00:40:39.180 --> 00:40:43.200 and a number of other places, as well. 00:40:43.200 --> 00:40:46.200 Good intellectual work is ongoing. 00:40:46.200 --> 00:40:49.683 Let me close off with a couple of points about this. 00:40:49.683 --> 00:40:51.600 And let's be sure to hold on to your question, 00:40:51.600 --> 00:40:53.725 because I think it'll be particularly relevant when 00:40:53.725 --> 00:40:56.010 we talk about the learning science piece too, Rashid. 00:40:58.710 --> 00:41:00.750 One thing that we're learning about these MOOCs 00:41:00.750 --> 00:41:06.340 is, how many people want to go and sit 00:41:06.340 --> 00:41:08.860 in front of blue screens in their basement 00:41:08.860 --> 00:41:12.552 and take a one-off course? 00:41:12.552 --> 00:41:13.480 MARTIN: Bill Gates. 00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:15.022 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Maybe Bill Gates. 00:41:15.022 --> 00:41:16.360 [LAUGHTER] 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:18.460 I have to confess that I probably 00:41:18.460 --> 00:41:22.390 came to college because I wanted the degree, right? 00:41:22.390 --> 00:41:25.270 That's probably why I took all those courses in the end. 00:41:25.270 --> 00:41:27.130 I wanted something that would translate 00:41:27.130 --> 00:41:29.170 into economic gain for me. 00:41:29.170 --> 00:41:30.850 That's obviously a profound motivator. 00:41:30.850 --> 00:41:34.360 So platforms that are organized simply 00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:40.930 around offering one-off courses without a coherent framework, 00:41:40.930 --> 00:41:43.360 without a resulting credential, that's 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:45.040 not a very good economic model. 00:41:45.040 --> 00:41:48.970 So the MOOC offerers had been very much moving 00:41:48.970 --> 00:41:51.430 in the direction of trying to find 00:41:51.430 --> 00:41:54.970 some kind of certificate that will certify that you've 00:41:54.970 --> 00:41:56.510 accomplished something. 00:41:56.510 --> 00:42:01.908 So a lot of people will be just interested in content. 00:42:01.908 --> 00:42:03.450 And I've certainly taken MOOC courses 00:42:03.450 --> 00:42:05.230 just because I was intrigued with the content. 00:42:05.230 --> 00:42:06.688 But a lot of people are going to be 00:42:06.688 --> 00:42:10.360 motivated by that credential. 00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:15.130 And MOOCs are moving in the direction 00:42:15.130 --> 00:42:19.570 of offering credentials for completing things. 00:42:19.570 --> 00:42:23.748 I mean, Georgia Tech and Udacity have a master's degree 00:42:23.748 --> 00:42:25.540 in computer science now, which is available 00:42:25.540 --> 00:42:27.980 online at a remarkably reasonable price-- far 00:42:27.980 --> 00:42:34.840 low in class, on campus tuition levels. 00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:37.360 MIT is, in a very innovative way, 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.360 doing these mini master's courses. 00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:43.870 I think we did one in an area MIT is famous for, 00:42:43.870 --> 00:42:45.250 which is supply chain management. 00:42:45.250 --> 00:42:46.625 And there's several more to come. 00:42:46.625 --> 00:42:50.080 The D-Lab has just picked one up or the world development 00:42:50.080 --> 00:42:51.070 community is doing one. 00:42:51.070 --> 00:42:52.990 There's going to be more at MIT. 00:42:52.990 --> 00:42:56.140 That's a very interesting model. 00:42:56.140 --> 00:42:58.930 You get a, quote, "micro master's certificate" 00:42:58.930 --> 00:43:00.820 for completing the course. 00:43:00.820 --> 00:43:04.750 And you pay, because there's got to be assessment, 00:43:04.750 --> 00:43:05.405 and that costs. 00:43:05.405 --> 00:43:07.030 Somebody has got to do that assessment, 00:43:07.030 --> 00:43:09.130 so that's going to be a cost. 00:43:09.130 --> 00:43:12.220 So you pay a modest amount for that assessment, 00:43:12.220 --> 00:43:14.950 and you take a year-long micro master's course. 00:43:14.950 --> 00:43:17.660 And then MIT, if you've done really well-- 00:43:17.660 --> 00:43:22.000 MIT will accept you for a semester on campus. 00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:24.277 Now, they can only offer that to a modest number 00:43:24.277 --> 00:43:26.860 of the thousands of people that are getting the micro master's 00:43:26.860 --> 00:43:27.360 degree. 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.470 But interestingly, other universities 00:43:29.470 --> 00:43:34.780 now, once you complete the MIT micro master's piece, 00:43:34.780 --> 00:43:39.270 they are enabling you to come on campus 00:43:39.270 --> 00:43:41.170 and get a real master's in the course 00:43:41.170 --> 00:43:43.340 of an additional semester of work. 00:43:43.340 --> 00:43:46.390 So that's a very interesting model. 00:43:46.390 --> 00:43:49.420 That's obviously much more of a blended model. 00:43:49.420 --> 00:43:51.610 You get a lot of content and information, 00:43:51.610 --> 00:43:53.980 which online is pretty good at on the online side. 00:43:53.980 --> 00:43:57.250 And then you really come in for an intensive classroom 00:43:57.250 --> 00:44:01.270 experience, which is much more the way in which they designed 00:44:01.270 --> 00:44:02.590 the micro master's here. 00:44:02.590 --> 00:44:04.048 When you do the real master's, it's 00:44:04.048 --> 00:44:05.990 much more learning by doing. 00:44:05.990 --> 00:44:06.490 Steph? 00:44:06.490 --> 00:44:07.450 STEPH: Well, I just wanted to note 00:44:07.450 --> 00:44:10.260 that a similar model exists at the Harvard Extension School, 00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:12.460 except it's obviously in person. 00:44:12.460 --> 00:44:14.940 The extension school is perceived as a back door 00:44:14.940 --> 00:44:16.840 into Harvard in the same way that you 00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:19.930 can take one-off courses at MIT if you talk to a professor 00:44:19.930 --> 00:44:21.060 and they approve you. 00:44:21.060 --> 00:44:22.840 So there's lots of opportunities, 00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:26.980 I think, to take a look at Harvard's extension school 00:44:26.980 --> 00:44:29.272 model to think about how blended learning might happen. 00:44:29.272 --> 00:44:30.355 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right. 00:44:30.355 --> 00:44:31.900 And MIT used to have an extension 00:44:31.900 --> 00:44:35.590 school in its early days, called the Lowell Institute, which 00:44:35.590 --> 00:44:37.180 is essentially an adult education 00:44:37.180 --> 00:44:41.680 program that was available for citizens in Boston-- 00:44:41.680 --> 00:44:45.910 very innovative and interesting, on its old historic campus, 00:44:45.910 --> 00:44:48.100 right across the river in Back Bay. 00:44:48.100 --> 00:44:49.720 Somehow that got lost in the process. 00:44:49.720 --> 00:44:54.280 But in a way, MIT has just opened a whole new school. 00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:56.080 That's MITx. 00:44:56.080 --> 00:44:57.018 And it's a massive-- 00:44:57.018 --> 00:44:58.060 MARTIN: It's very global. 00:44:58.060 --> 00:45:00.970 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: --worldwide global extension school. 00:45:00.970 --> 00:45:02.560 So there's a whole new school here. 00:45:02.560 --> 00:45:04.870 We just haven't fully recognized it yet. 00:45:04.870 --> 00:45:09.160 And, look, lifelong learning may be the best application. 00:45:09.160 --> 00:45:14.380 Because in lifelong learning, in theory at least, 00:45:14.380 --> 00:45:20.140 you've already learned those explanatory skills, 00:45:20.140 --> 00:45:22.570 those oral presentation skills. 00:45:22.570 --> 00:45:25.370 You've already learned those writing skills. 00:45:25.370 --> 00:45:29.380 You've already got a lot of those fundamental pieces, which 00:45:29.380 --> 00:45:31.715 are largely a part of the undergraduate education scene, 00:45:31.715 --> 00:45:33.340 but also part of the high school scene. 00:45:33.340 --> 00:45:35.890 In theory, you've got some of those down. 00:45:35.890 --> 00:45:41.140 And then what you're in for, after doing work 00:45:41.140 --> 00:45:45.620 in a relevant area, you're in to enhance your career or skill 00:45:45.620 --> 00:45:48.310 set in a lifelong learning setting. 00:45:48.310 --> 00:45:51.190 The average age of a student at a community college is 29. 00:45:51.190 --> 00:45:53.370 In other words, they're already in the workforce. 00:45:53.370 --> 00:45:56.740 40% of what community colleges now offer 00:45:56.740 --> 00:46:00.330 are certificates in quasi-professional areas 00:46:00.330 --> 00:46:02.530 that, in effect, certify to employers that you've 00:46:02.530 --> 00:46:04.920 got an additional skill set. 00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:08.790 That's very interesting, that lifelong learning opportunity 00:46:08.790 --> 00:46:11.160 to upgrade your skill set and qualify, for you, 00:46:11.160 --> 00:46:14.160 a new set of career areas. 00:46:14.160 --> 00:46:15.690 That's a really important feature. 00:46:15.690 --> 00:46:17.070 That's a really important problem 00:46:17.070 --> 00:46:22.830 for those people who got left behind through this failure 00:46:22.830 --> 00:46:26.970 of our higher education system to graduate enough people. 00:46:26.970 --> 00:46:29.520 That's a really interesting, promising option 00:46:29.520 --> 00:46:33.400 for what online can help us with. 00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:37.560 And lifelong learning may be the best tool 00:46:37.560 --> 00:46:41.580 we've got that MOOCs and online education can apply to. 00:46:41.580 --> 00:46:46.110 So those are some features of what 00:46:46.110 --> 00:46:49.170 online education may offer us. 00:46:49.170 --> 00:46:51.450 The economic model, we're still feeling our way. 00:46:51.450 --> 00:46:52.630 What's the business model? 00:46:52.630 --> 00:46:54.960 How are these cost centers going to justify themselves? 00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:58.530 We're not there yet, but it looks like this certificate, 00:46:58.530 --> 00:47:02.490 micro master's kind of stuff is probably a good way to do this. 00:47:02.490 --> 00:47:07.560 Lifelong learning may be another very good way to do it. 00:47:07.560 --> 00:47:11.160 Will universities be willing? 00:47:11.160 --> 00:47:13.590 In other words, we're sort of at a situation 00:47:13.590 --> 00:47:16.200 now where universities offer a bunch of MOOCs 00:47:16.200 --> 00:47:18.480 over on one side, purely online. 00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:22.170 And then they're running their same old university 00:47:22.170 --> 00:47:24.630 with lecture classes. 00:47:24.630 --> 00:47:25.920 And nothing really changes. 00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:29.070 Because as we've discussed, the blended model 00:47:29.070 --> 00:47:32.400 is what's key to the reform, because that will drive 00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:34.650 a new kind of classroom, the kind of cultural change 00:47:34.650 --> 00:47:36.330 you're talking about, Steph, right? 00:47:36.330 --> 00:47:37.950 It could be a driver for this. 00:47:37.950 --> 00:47:40.500 So unless universities are willing to really think hard 00:47:40.500 --> 00:47:44.100 about the blended model, then we won't get the revolution 00:47:44.100 --> 00:47:47.220 that we really need, a kind of transformation of what goes on 00:47:47.220 --> 00:47:49.580 in the classroom, and then full utilization 00:47:49.580 --> 00:47:53.640 of this whole new tool set that gives us essentially 00:47:53.640 --> 00:47:56.190 information and content access. 00:47:56.190 --> 00:47:59.360 So we're still going to need-- and the term, 00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:02.610 think you were looking for, Steph, in your argument, 00:48:02.610 --> 00:48:04.740 and it's a term that we use in the legacy sector 00:48:04.740 --> 00:48:07.750 analysis, who are the change agents going to be? 00:48:07.750 --> 00:48:09.660 How are we going to drive change here? 00:48:09.660 --> 00:48:11.950 And then that gets us into our next reading. 00:48:11.950 --> 00:48:13.830 MARTIN: Well, but you'd also change the university business 00:48:13.830 --> 00:48:14.070 model. 00:48:14.070 --> 00:48:15.840 Because I know when I was on the executive board 00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:17.257 for my fraternity, we were looking 00:48:17.257 --> 00:48:19.170 at a lot of internal reports for MIT. 00:48:19.170 --> 00:48:22.330 And they make a lot more money off of grad students 00:48:22.330 --> 00:48:23.550 than undergrads usually. 00:48:23.550 --> 00:48:26.430 So potentially becoming more of-- because MIT 00:48:26.430 --> 00:48:28.702 is pretty much just a research institution. 00:48:28.702 --> 00:48:30.910 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Well, MIT provides huge subsidies 00:48:30.910 --> 00:48:33.580 to graduate students in a massive system of fellowship. 00:48:33.580 --> 00:48:34.830 So they're not paying tuition. 00:48:34.830 --> 00:48:36.288 MARTIN: But they end up doing a lot 00:48:36.288 --> 00:48:39.210 of prolific work that MIT is known for and research studies. 00:48:39.210 --> 00:48:40.560 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: In term of the research side, yes. 00:48:40.560 --> 00:48:42.393 MARTIN: What is the output of the institute? 00:48:42.393 --> 00:48:45.660 So ideally-- or the way I've seen it usually is-- 00:48:45.660 --> 00:48:47.550 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yes, research output, 00:48:47.550 --> 00:48:48.840 graduate students are core. 00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:51.276 But tuition, believe me, undergraduates are key. 00:48:51.276 --> 00:48:53.200 MARTIN: But I feel like a better business model would probably 00:48:53.200 --> 00:48:54.980 be getting government funding for certain research 00:48:54.980 --> 00:48:56.022 that has to happen for the government 00:48:56.022 --> 00:48:57.230 or something like that. 00:48:57.230 --> 00:48:58.980 I mean, you get a lot more money that way. 00:48:58.980 --> 00:49:00.063 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right. 00:49:01.870 --> 00:49:02.370 We'll see. 00:49:02.370 --> 00:49:03.995 I'm not yet clear who is going to drive 00:49:03.995 --> 00:49:10.070 this revolution of blended learning education model. 00:49:10.070 --> 00:49:11.380 MIT is now exploring it. 00:49:11.380 --> 00:49:14.190 I mean, there's over 90 online classes. 00:49:14.190 --> 00:49:17.160 And over 90% of MIT students-- you all can tell me this is 00:49:17.160 --> 00:49:19.320 true-- 00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:23.880 according to my friend Sanjay Sarma, VP for online learning, 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.160 Sanjay says 90% of undergraduate students 00:49:26.160 --> 00:49:29.040 now have a blended learning experience 00:49:29.040 --> 00:49:30.995 in their undergraduate careers. 00:49:30.995 --> 00:49:33.880 Does that sound right to you all? 00:49:33.880 --> 00:49:36.378 OK, I'm reassured. 00:49:36.378 --> 00:49:37.920 Let me try to lay out, and then we'll 00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:42.930 have 20 minutes plus for discussion. 00:49:42.930 --> 00:49:47.910 The authors of this 2016 report on learning science 00:49:47.910 --> 00:49:53.030 were Sanjay Sarma, Karen Willcox at AeroAstro, 00:49:53.030 --> 00:49:54.930 Eric Klopfer, who I mentioned before, 00:49:54.930 --> 00:49:58.507 Philip Lippel in my office in Washington. 00:50:03.380 --> 00:50:07.740 The new online platforms, as I said a little earlier, 00:50:07.740 --> 00:50:10.410 came out of computer science departments, 00:50:10.410 --> 00:50:14.367 because they saw these incredible broadband access 00:50:14.367 --> 00:50:14.950 opportunities. 00:50:14.950 --> 00:50:16.242 And believe me, they were real. 00:50:16.242 --> 00:50:18.840 I was in Egypt about four years ago teaching 00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:21.720 at the American University of Cairo for about 10 days 00:50:21.720 --> 00:50:27.870 or participating in programs there lecturing. 00:50:27.870 --> 00:50:34.720 And I realized that the availability of these things 00:50:34.720 --> 00:50:36.430 is a complete worldwide phenomena. 00:50:36.430 --> 00:50:42.380 And I asked my Egyptian friends, how many people in your country 00:50:42.380 --> 00:50:47.638 do you think have access to an iPhone? 00:50:47.638 --> 00:50:49.430 They thought about it, and they said, well, 00:50:49.430 --> 00:50:51.763 you know, between friends and neighbors and connections, 00:50:51.763 --> 00:50:56.690 we probably have well over 80% of our population with access 00:50:56.690 --> 00:50:57.500 to iPhones. 00:50:57.500 --> 00:51:03.110 So in other words, this is a pretty poor developing country. 00:51:03.110 --> 00:51:05.480 That's an astonishing access system. 00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:07.110 That's an amazing access system. 00:51:07.110 --> 00:51:09.490 There's a whole new delivery vehicle out there. 00:51:09.490 --> 00:51:11.240 And the computer science departments, 00:51:11.240 --> 00:51:13.107 logically, saw that first. 00:51:13.107 --> 00:51:14.690 So they realized there was a new tool, 00:51:14.690 --> 00:51:20.540 and they raced to create content to do that, largely just 00:51:20.540 --> 00:51:22.760 videoing classrooms, right? 00:51:25.340 --> 00:51:31.790 And what this group felt was, look, 00:51:31.790 --> 00:51:37.600 we better figure out how to optimize the online education 00:51:37.600 --> 00:51:39.440 pieces that we're now doing. 00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:43.840 How do we understand what's been happening in cognitive science 00:51:43.840 --> 00:51:46.090 and learning science, which comes out of the education 00:51:46.090 --> 00:51:49.600 side, and the neuroscience, and take advantage 00:51:49.600 --> 00:51:52.540 of what they've been learning about learning in the last 15 00:51:52.540 --> 00:51:57.820 years and try and embed those capabilities 00:51:57.820 --> 00:52:04.450 for better learning into our online courses? 00:52:04.450 --> 00:52:10.030 It was a great aim, because the MOOC development community 00:52:10.030 --> 00:52:13.150 hadn't frankly, seriously, in an organized way, 00:52:13.150 --> 00:52:14.200 thought about this. 00:52:14.200 --> 00:52:17.290 So this report made a real contribution. 00:52:17.290 --> 00:52:20.690 And there's now a whole research community. 00:52:20.690 --> 00:52:26.870 And I attended their annual meeting last month at MIT. 00:52:26.870 --> 00:52:29.200 And it was a community from all over the world. 00:52:29.200 --> 00:52:32.750 Universities from everywhere were present. 00:52:32.750 --> 00:52:34.070 It was fascinating. 00:52:34.070 --> 00:52:37.570 So there were four key recommendations. 00:52:37.570 --> 00:52:40.630 Integrate learning science from education 00:52:40.630 --> 00:52:43.540 with cognitive science and neuroscience. 00:52:43.540 --> 00:52:45.130 These are disciplinary communities 00:52:45.130 --> 00:52:48.980 that never talk to each other, that are in no communication. 00:52:48.980 --> 00:52:52.065 They're coming up with significant territories, 00:52:52.065 --> 00:52:54.190 and there could be a lot of benefit from crossover. 00:52:54.190 --> 00:52:56.680 So that was one of the points. 00:52:56.680 --> 00:52:59.710 Optimally structured online courses and modules 00:52:59.710 --> 00:53:03.310 can be an important facilitator for higher education, emphasis 00:53:03.310 --> 00:53:05.830 on optimally structured. 00:53:05.830 --> 00:53:08.283 So there are all these phenomena. 00:53:08.283 --> 00:53:09.700 And this report looked at a number 00:53:09.700 --> 00:53:14.500 of the phenomena that affect learning, like mind wandering, 00:53:14.500 --> 00:53:17.650 segmenting learning into more bite-sized, understandable, 00:53:17.650 --> 00:53:20.020 manageable pieces. 00:53:20.020 --> 00:53:21.640 Retrieval learning-- in other words, 00:53:21.640 --> 00:53:25.210 what's the right mix between study and test-- 00:53:25.210 --> 00:53:27.280 the reinforcement mechanism. 00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:28.780 How do you do space retrieval? 00:53:28.780 --> 00:53:30.460 In other words, recovery of information 00:53:30.460 --> 00:53:31.940 over an extended period of time. 00:53:31.940 --> 00:53:34.000 How do you optimize that? 00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:35.470 What's the role of curiosity? 00:53:35.470 --> 00:53:38.380 Can you use that as a driver in the learning space? 00:53:38.380 --> 00:53:40.840 So they began to look at all of these phenomena, which 00:53:40.840 --> 00:53:43.198 have actually been studied in a number of these fields, 00:53:43.198 --> 00:53:44.740 and attempted to incorporate them in. 00:53:44.740 --> 00:53:48.220 I'm not going to try to wander through each one 00:53:48.220 --> 00:53:49.840 of these elements. 00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:54.220 But here's some of the literature. 00:53:54.220 --> 00:53:58.750 And the MRI scans show you mind wandering. 00:53:58.750 --> 00:54:01.030 I mean, different parts of the brain 00:54:01.030 --> 00:54:05.100 are zipping around the different territories. 00:54:05.100 --> 00:54:08.620 And it's a phenomena that needs to be accounted for. 00:54:12.550 --> 00:54:14.620 It's a very natural phenomena. 00:54:14.620 --> 00:54:18.580 Mind wandering is-- it's Darwinian. 00:54:18.580 --> 00:54:21.550 It's very important for our minds to wander. 00:54:21.550 --> 00:54:24.797 If we're able to completely stay on topic, 00:54:24.797 --> 00:54:26.380 the saber-toothed tiger would probably 00:54:26.380 --> 00:54:29.140 leap through our thatched cottage and finish us off. 00:54:29.140 --> 00:54:30.700 We've got to be keeping an eye out 00:54:30.700 --> 00:54:32.620 for the saber-toothed tiger. 00:54:32.620 --> 00:54:33.940 So this is very Darwinian. 00:54:33.940 --> 00:54:37.270 It's an important skill to have mind wandering and the ability 00:54:37.270 --> 00:54:39.670 to move from topic and area to area. 00:54:39.670 --> 00:54:42.310 It's an important part of the creativity of the brain. 00:54:42.310 --> 00:54:44.950 But it's been viewed, historically, 00:54:44.950 --> 00:54:47.710 as an enemy of learning. 00:54:47.710 --> 00:54:49.810 Teachers want students on the task 00:54:49.810 --> 00:54:55.030 for that full time of the classroom experience 00:54:55.030 --> 00:54:57.170 and are worried when they get distracted. 00:54:57.170 --> 00:54:59.470 So how do you do this? 00:54:59.470 --> 00:55:01.630 One approach is to segment learning 00:55:01.630 --> 00:55:03.430 into bite-sized pieces. 00:55:03.430 --> 00:55:06.400 So we attempt to do a bit of that in this class 00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:13.760 with 10, 15 minutes of talking head, i.e. me, and then turning 00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:16.280 the discussion over to you all. 00:55:16.280 --> 00:55:19.040 So that you've got varying things occurring, 00:55:19.040 --> 00:55:21.770 and you never have much more than 10 or 15 minutes. 00:55:21.770 --> 00:55:23.630 And it probably should be 8 to 10, 00:55:23.630 --> 00:55:29.330 frankly, on a single presenter. 00:55:29.330 --> 00:55:31.730 And then you move to attempt to absorb 00:55:31.730 --> 00:55:35.090 the material in the discussion and have 00:55:35.090 --> 00:55:38.328 folks who were presenters of that material 00:55:38.328 --> 00:55:39.620 develop the content themselves. 00:55:39.620 --> 00:55:40.910 SPEAKER 2: What is that graph? 00:55:40.910 --> 00:55:41.910 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Hmm? 00:55:41.910 --> 00:55:43.433 SPEAKER 2: What is that graph? 00:55:43.433 --> 00:55:45.350 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: You know, it doesn't quite 00:55:45.350 --> 00:55:48.530 match exactly what I was attempting to show to you. 00:55:48.530 --> 00:55:53.510 But it does attempt to show a tutorial versus a lecture model 00:55:53.510 --> 00:55:57.560 and what the median time frame is in any given limit. 00:55:57.560 --> 00:56:01.130 So in a tutorial, one-on-one setting, 00:56:01.130 --> 00:56:04.280 you can see that there's more focus on topic over an extended 00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:05.050 period of time. 00:56:05.050 --> 00:56:11.480 Whereas your median point starts to switch in a lecture model 00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:12.920 and gets shorter. 00:56:12.920 --> 00:56:15.710 So frankly, tutorials are a better way 00:56:15.710 --> 00:56:17.200 of learning than a lecture. 00:56:17.200 --> 00:56:20.570 But it's a fairly unaffordable model. 00:56:20.570 --> 00:56:24.300 Another lesson-- retrieval learning. 00:56:24.300 --> 00:56:26.150 The study-study-- in other words, 00:56:26.150 --> 00:56:29.180 you study and then you study, right? 00:56:29.180 --> 00:56:33.860 You study and you study it again versus you study and then take 00:56:33.860 --> 00:56:35.990 a test about it. 00:56:35.990 --> 00:56:40.010 And over what period of time, which works best? 00:56:40.010 --> 00:56:43.860 So if I was imposing this graph, we'd have a test every week, 00:56:43.860 --> 00:56:44.600 just so you know. 00:56:44.600 --> 00:56:45.590 I'm sparing you. 00:56:45.590 --> 00:56:47.930 But that would be the optimal model. 00:56:47.930 --> 00:56:53.030 This is one week retention-- study-study, 42% retention, 00:56:53.030 --> 00:56:54.980 56% versus study-test. 00:56:54.980 --> 00:56:59.240 In the words, being forced to regurgitate and focus 00:56:59.240 --> 00:57:02.930 on the material definitely does serve a learning purpose. 00:57:02.930 --> 00:57:06.380 Curiosity does make a difference-- in other words, 00:57:06.380 --> 00:57:10.060 if you can bring curiosity into the game. 00:57:10.060 --> 00:57:12.920 And there's something famous in education called an Ebbinghaus 00:57:12.920 --> 00:57:15.570 Curve, the forgetting curve. 00:57:15.570 --> 00:57:18.350 In other words, people forget. 00:57:18.350 --> 00:57:22.220 After about a week, it's history. 00:57:22.220 --> 00:57:25.370 And maybe after a month you remember some vague outline. 00:57:25.370 --> 00:57:29.630 So there's a profound forgetting curve in the human mind. 00:57:29.630 --> 00:57:32.690 And can you do spaced retrieval to try and change 00:57:32.690 --> 00:57:34.880 that curve to retain it longer? 00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:37.700 These are all fundamental issues in learning 00:57:37.700 --> 00:57:41.090 that this report attempted to start to grapple with, 00:57:41.090 --> 00:57:41.810 as you saw. 00:57:48.620 --> 00:57:50.570 Recommendations three and four were 00:57:50.570 --> 00:57:54.790 to support the profession of learning engineer. 00:57:54.790 --> 00:57:58.903 So MIT got into this situation where, first of all, 00:57:58.903 --> 00:58:01.070 there's a lot of faculty resistance on every faculty 00:58:01.070 --> 00:58:04.210 of these online courses, because the faculty is thinking, 00:58:04.210 --> 00:58:06.440 this stuff's going to put me out of business, 00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:07.978 they're going to take away my job. 00:58:07.978 --> 00:58:09.895 So there's always a lot of anger, frustration, 00:58:09.895 --> 00:58:13.850 and resentment when the online course arrives. 00:58:13.850 --> 00:58:18.320 So MIT very cleverly attempted to get 00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:25.160 some of its top-noted teachers to take on online courses. 00:58:25.160 --> 00:58:28.160 In other words, if the most respected of your peers 00:58:28.160 --> 00:58:30.620 are doing these online courses, how can you complain? 00:58:30.620 --> 00:58:33.410 That was a model here. 00:58:33.410 --> 00:58:36.740 And they were able to do it on the sales point 00:58:36.740 --> 00:58:41.270 to the faculty member that, hey, how many people have you 00:58:41.270 --> 00:58:42.980 taught in your lifetime at MIT? 00:58:42.980 --> 00:58:44.780 A few thousand? 00:58:44.780 --> 00:58:46.760 Your first course is going to have 30,000, 00:58:46.760 --> 00:58:49.100 so you're going to be famous. 00:58:49.100 --> 00:58:50.540 That was the sales pitch. 00:58:50.540 --> 00:58:53.810 That's an attractive pitch. 00:58:53.810 --> 00:59:00.500 So MIT got its senior faculty and most respected faculty 00:59:00.500 --> 00:59:05.000 teaching the early suite of a lot of these courses. 00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:09.230 And that was interesting. 00:59:09.230 --> 00:59:12.890 And then they had this experience, right? 00:59:12.890 --> 00:59:15.350 They gave their best lectures, and then 00:59:15.350 --> 00:59:16.850 they built in all this assessment 00:59:16.850 --> 00:59:18.920 and the 10-minute rule and all this kind of stuff 00:59:18.920 --> 00:59:21.890 into the class, and they had to completely redo their lectures 00:59:21.890 --> 00:59:26.060 to fit all the requirements that Sanjay Sarma and the edX team 00:59:26.060 --> 00:59:26.990 was forcing on them. 00:59:26.990 --> 00:59:29.330 So they had to rewrite all their lectures 00:59:29.330 --> 00:59:31.850 to fit the new formatting. 00:59:31.850 --> 00:59:36.320 And then they gave their course and they put it online, 00:59:36.320 --> 00:59:38.480 which, of course, every student can take. 00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:40.520 So then they go back to the regular semester, 00:59:40.520 --> 00:59:45.140 they're giving their lecture class, no one shows up. 00:59:45.140 --> 00:59:47.450 They've all taken the class online already. 00:59:47.450 --> 00:59:49.730 Why are they going to show up? 00:59:49.730 --> 00:59:52.040 So then the faculty member realized, 00:59:52.040 --> 00:59:54.470 I'm going to get zero attendance here 00:59:54.470 --> 00:59:57.920 unless I develop a completely different kind of content. 00:59:57.920 --> 00:59:59.810 So then the faculty members started 00:59:59.810 --> 01:00:03.470 to, in interesting kind of ways, rethink 01:00:03.470 --> 01:00:06.770 what the content was going to be in the actual face-to-face 01:00:06.770 --> 01:00:08.300 classroom. 01:00:08.300 --> 01:00:10.170 That's not easy for a faculty member who 01:00:10.170 --> 01:00:12.110 has never looked at learning science problems 01:00:12.110 --> 01:00:14.390 or studied MOOCs and studied the technology. 01:00:14.390 --> 01:00:18.460 So MIT began equipping them with graduate students 01:00:18.460 --> 01:00:21.050 were really interested in this stuff, who 01:00:21.050 --> 01:00:23.330 wanted to use it in their own teaching experiences 01:00:23.330 --> 01:00:26.420 and decided to dig in, realizing they would be better teachers 01:00:26.420 --> 01:00:29.303 and potentially more saleable if they 01:00:29.303 --> 01:00:30.470 had this kind of background. 01:00:30.470 --> 01:00:33.950 So these what MIT called "learning engineers" 01:00:33.950 --> 01:00:36.080 were assigned to the faculty member. 01:00:36.080 --> 01:00:39.280 Now, the faculty member was willing to accept 01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:42.320 the graduate student, if the graduate student 01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:43.555 was studying in their field. 01:00:43.555 --> 01:00:45.680 In other words, they respected the graduate student 01:00:45.680 --> 01:00:50.125 for having mastered the professor's own territory. 01:00:50.125 --> 01:00:51.500 They weren't interested in having 01:00:51.500 --> 01:00:54.020 graduate students, know-it-alls, trying 01:00:54.020 --> 01:00:56.150 to dictate to them from a totally different field. 01:00:56.150 --> 01:00:59.180 But they were prepared to accept the graduate student, 01:00:59.180 --> 01:01:01.490 if the graduate student had already shown mastery 01:01:01.490 --> 01:01:02.723 of their own fields. 01:01:02.723 --> 01:01:03.890 That was respected learning. 01:01:03.890 --> 01:01:07.160 So that was another piece in this learning engineer 01:01:07.160 --> 01:01:09.080 experience at MIT. 01:01:09.080 --> 01:01:11.780 And it's worked, so we created this whole community 01:01:11.780 --> 01:01:12.710 of graduate students. 01:01:12.710 --> 01:01:14.918 When we talk about how to bring about the revolution, 01:01:14.918 --> 01:01:17.570 a whole bunch of graduate students now at MIT 01:01:17.570 --> 01:01:19.940 are getting experience as learning engineers, 01:01:19.940 --> 01:01:23.450 helping these ossified faculty members, 01:01:23.450 --> 01:01:28.190 like me, learn how to do this fancy MOOC, 01:01:28.190 --> 01:01:30.140 online, blended learning, change around 01:01:30.140 --> 01:01:32.030 your face-to-face classroom, optimized 01:01:32.030 --> 01:01:33.230 learning experience stuff. 01:01:33.230 --> 01:01:36.080 And that's, you know, these are all change models. 01:01:36.080 --> 01:01:38.630 These are all potential ways in which 01:01:38.630 --> 01:01:41.180 change agents can operate. 01:01:41.180 --> 01:01:45.050 But there's a very deep question about, 01:01:45.050 --> 01:01:48.470 how do we do a change model within a higher education 01:01:48.470 --> 01:01:49.252 legacy sector? 01:01:49.252 --> 01:01:50.960 Because it's a very decentralized system. 01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:53.180 And MIT's learning lessons, and other universities 01:01:53.180 --> 01:01:54.890 that are doing this are learning lessons. 01:01:54.890 --> 01:01:56.690 But how do we exchange these lessons 01:01:56.690 --> 01:01:59.297 and get these lessons adopted through the community? 01:01:59.297 --> 01:02:00.380 That's a tough assignment. 01:02:00.380 --> 01:02:04.113 That's where all of Steph's points about her implication 01:02:04.113 --> 01:02:06.780 was, how do we get change agents willing to step up to the plate 01:02:06.780 --> 01:02:08.690 drive this stuff? 01:02:08.690 --> 01:02:11.450 STEPH: And get them respected, as you've just noted. 01:02:11.450 --> 01:02:12.770 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yes. 01:02:12.770 --> 01:02:13.910 All right. 01:02:13.910 --> 01:02:17.540 We've got 20 minutes for Q&A. Lily, it's you. 01:02:17.540 --> 01:02:18.820 LILY: That's me. 01:02:18.820 --> 01:02:21.807 I will start-- which one would you like me to start with? 01:02:21.807 --> 01:02:23.682 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Whichever one you prefer. 01:02:23.682 --> 01:02:25.570 LILY: Hmm, that's tough. 01:02:25.570 --> 01:02:26.416 OK. 01:02:26.416 --> 01:02:30.800 Let's start-- we ending with the MITx online learning, 01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:35.722 so let's go to that paper and discuss it. 01:02:35.722 --> 01:02:36.680 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: OK. 01:02:36.680 --> 01:02:39.290 LILY: A couple of people had questions, including myself, 01:02:39.290 --> 01:02:45.050 as to what subject areas the online or blended learning 01:02:45.050 --> 01:02:46.210 could be-- 01:02:46.210 --> 01:02:50.020 or what subject areas could readily adapt those practices, 01:02:50.020 --> 01:02:53.500 and if it's just impossible to really implement 01:02:53.500 --> 01:02:58.040 this sort of style in some subject areas. 01:02:58.040 --> 01:03:01.270 So, for example, I would not have 01:03:01.270 --> 01:03:06.622 wanted to take this course if it was an online course. 01:03:06.622 --> 01:03:08.080 I don't have a three-hour attention 01:03:08.080 --> 01:03:09.760 span sitting at my computer. 01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:11.770 And I wouldn't have-- 01:03:11.770 --> 01:03:15.070 sure, you could have a discussion group, 01:03:15.070 --> 01:03:17.470 and everyone tunes in on their own devices, 01:03:17.470 --> 01:03:20.670 and so you could have this pseudo-interactive discussion. 01:03:20.670 --> 01:03:24.010 But there is just something about sitting around a seminar 01:03:24.010 --> 01:03:27.940 table and interacting with other humans, for me. 01:03:27.940 --> 01:03:31.450 So I wanted to hear what you all thought about the applicability 01:03:31.450 --> 01:03:36.810 of the MITx in certain fields. 01:03:36.810 --> 01:03:38.550 SPEAKER 1: Yeah, I've always questioned 01:03:38.550 --> 01:03:41.220 how either it could be improved or whether it 01:03:41.220 --> 01:03:45.120 is suitable for a lot of engineering classes, 01:03:45.120 --> 01:03:48.390 just from my experience both as a student, 01:03:48.390 --> 01:03:50.400 and then as a TA grading stuff. 01:03:53.100 --> 01:03:54.690 So many of the questions are not just 01:03:54.690 --> 01:03:56.710 about getting the right answer. 01:03:56.710 --> 01:03:58.380 It's about making sure you understand 01:03:58.380 --> 01:03:59.860 how to approach the problem. 01:03:59.860 --> 01:04:02.250 Did you just make one little mistake along the way 01:04:02.250 --> 01:04:03.750 and that gives you the wrong answer? 01:04:03.750 --> 01:04:05.910 A lot of times there's not even numbers involved. 01:04:05.910 --> 01:04:09.960 And so I know they did solid-state chemistry 01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:13.280 as one of the classes that was first really involved with edX. 01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:15.780 And I know the students would get really frustrated with it, 01:04:15.780 --> 01:04:18.450 because they were like, oh, I rounded this number wrong, 01:04:18.450 --> 01:04:21.930 and that's why my answer's off or all these little things 01:04:21.930 --> 01:04:26.113 that edX just wasn't sensitive enough to pick up on. 01:04:26.113 --> 01:04:28.530 And so I don't know if that's a question of the technology 01:04:28.530 --> 01:04:32.220 improving, such that we have better machine learning 01:04:32.220 --> 01:04:34.770 artificial intelligence to tell what students are doing, 01:04:34.770 --> 01:04:37.630 or whether that's just a limitation that will 01:04:37.630 --> 01:04:41.130 be present with this field. 01:04:41.130 --> 01:04:41.630 CHLOE: Yeah. 01:04:41.630 --> 01:04:44.390 I think building onto that and from our earlier discussion 01:04:44.390 --> 01:04:47.660 about whether teachers and professors still 01:04:47.660 --> 01:04:51.230 have a role in the very much more 01:04:51.230 --> 01:04:52.970 online or automated education, is 01:04:52.970 --> 01:04:56.090 that one of the important features of being physically 01:04:56.090 --> 01:04:57.800 in a classroom or interacting with a TA 01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:00.258 like yourself, or with other students, or with a professor, 01:05:00.258 --> 01:05:03.740 is that they're most important-- even more 01:05:03.740 --> 01:05:06.740 valuable skill of theirs, as opposed to knowing 01:05:06.740 --> 01:05:12.680 their material inside and out, is having the teaching 01:05:12.680 --> 01:05:17.090 ability to identify what your problem is and understand 01:05:17.090 --> 01:05:21.020 the student's psychology and understand the learning 01:05:21.020 --> 01:05:22.100 process. 01:05:22.100 --> 01:05:24.600 They can't just point at your answer and say, this is wrong, 01:05:24.600 --> 01:05:27.080 because you did this, but understand why you're wrong 01:05:27.080 --> 01:05:29.900 and then redirect you and then course correct you. 01:05:29.900 --> 01:05:33.470 So I think that will always be an important element of a truly 01:05:33.470 --> 01:05:35.780 well-rounded education, and you only 01:05:35.780 --> 01:05:39.140 get that from interacting with other people. 01:05:39.140 --> 01:05:42.220 KEVIN: I do think that technology as a sense now, 01:05:42.220 --> 01:05:46.530 the face-to-face component, is critical in a lot of learning, 01:05:46.530 --> 01:05:48.230 especially in a class like this, right? 01:05:48.230 --> 01:05:52.160 But what's to say 5, 10, 20 years from now 01:05:52.160 --> 01:05:54.478 we can't all just slap a pair of VR goggles on, 01:05:54.478 --> 01:05:56.270 and then we're sitting in a simulated room, 01:05:56.270 --> 01:05:58.562 and then Bill doesn't need to fly in for every lecture. 01:05:58.562 --> 01:05:59.140 [LAUGHTER] 01:05:59.140 --> 01:06:01.550 You get that same experience-- 01:06:01.550 --> 01:06:03.282 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Great idea, Kevin. 01:06:03.282 --> 01:06:04.800 --how we market it. 01:06:04.800 --> 01:06:07.310 And you get the same experience of sitting around, 01:06:07.310 --> 01:06:11.090 but you don't have to leave your couch or wherever you are. 01:06:11.090 --> 01:06:14.130 CHLOE: Yeah, I think that's allowable and achievable. 01:06:14.130 --> 01:06:15.298 But I think-- 01:06:15.298 --> 01:06:16.340 KEVIN: As it stands now-- 01:06:16.340 --> 01:06:17.960 CHLOE: Yeah. 01:06:17.960 --> 01:06:20.120 We don't have to physically be in the same room, 01:06:20.120 --> 01:06:24.170 but there's still a role for a human educator 01:06:24.170 --> 01:06:28.340 and for human students to interact with each other. 01:06:28.340 --> 01:06:33.560 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So far, I think, Chloe and Kevin, so far, 01:06:33.560 --> 01:06:38.960 much of our communication is not the words that we're mouthing. 01:06:38.960 --> 01:06:40.550 It's the expressions we use. 01:06:40.550 --> 01:06:42.480 It's eye contact. 01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:45.410 It's hand expressions. 01:06:45.410 --> 01:06:47.840 There's just a whole range of stuff 01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:49.910 that accompanies what we're actually saying, 01:06:49.910 --> 01:06:52.820 that we use as part of our communication systems. 01:06:52.820 --> 01:06:56.990 And so far, the technology has not 01:06:56.990 --> 01:07:00.290 been precise enough to enable us to capture 01:07:00.290 --> 01:07:04.760 that incredible depth that face-to-face allows. 01:07:04.760 --> 01:07:07.190 And to some extent, it's frustrating. 01:07:07.190 --> 01:07:14.060 In other words, because that mix of non-spoken communication 01:07:14.060 --> 01:07:16.940 skills doesn't get fully picked up, 01:07:16.940 --> 01:07:20.860 people are frustrated by the experience. 01:07:20.860 --> 01:07:23.930 This is a notorious problem in conference calls, 01:07:23.930 --> 01:07:26.600 even in video conference calls, right? 01:07:26.600 --> 01:07:28.700 People don't quite see what the other person 01:07:28.700 --> 01:07:30.710 is driving at or trying to communicate, 01:07:30.710 --> 01:07:33.320 because this raft of other kinds of communication 01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:34.370 is not picked up. 01:07:34.370 --> 01:07:37.943 Now, that's not to say that this won't get a lot better. 01:07:37.943 --> 01:07:39.860 And we've obviously moved to a whole new level 01:07:39.860 --> 01:07:44.360 of high definition and a lot of different machinery. 01:07:44.360 --> 01:07:45.920 So it may well get better. 01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:48.110 At the moment, it's not good enough yet 01:07:48.110 --> 01:07:52.530 to substitute for being next to you. 01:07:52.530 --> 01:07:54.450 MARTIN: But I'd add an addendum, though. 01:07:54.450 --> 01:07:55.825 Because we're kind of seeing how, 01:07:55.825 --> 01:07:58.090 oh, it's not how the original is. 01:07:58.090 --> 01:07:59.300 But form follows function. 01:07:59.300 --> 01:08:00.800 And because it has a different form, 01:08:00.800 --> 01:08:03.260 you have other functions that we wouldn't have here. 01:08:03.260 --> 01:08:05.060 So if it's all online, then other people 01:08:05.060 --> 01:08:07.130 can be telling me what they got wrong 01:08:07.130 --> 01:08:08.670 or I can get recommendations. 01:08:08.670 --> 01:08:11.193 But the thing is the system hasn't been perfected as well. 01:08:11.193 --> 01:08:12.860 Or like you said, you don't want to stay 01:08:12.860 --> 01:08:14.030 in a three-hour lecture. 01:08:14.030 --> 01:08:16.925 I usually watch videos at 3x if they're educational, 01:08:16.925 --> 01:08:19.385 and I'll just go through the content, go back and forth. 01:08:19.385 --> 01:08:20.510 That's why I talk about it. 01:08:20.510 --> 01:08:22.420 Because it was like, yo, yo, OK. 01:08:22.420 --> 01:08:24.229 But I'd get a lot more done, and I'd just 01:08:24.229 --> 01:08:25.939 focus on the stuff I want to do. 01:08:25.939 --> 01:08:28.910 So there's new functions you can do. 01:08:28.910 --> 01:08:30.620 Another really important aspect that I 01:08:30.620 --> 01:08:32.600 thought of from an organizational standpoint 01:08:32.600 --> 01:08:33.975 is, in this class, certain people 01:08:33.975 --> 01:08:36.345 are going to talk up more. 01:08:36.345 --> 01:08:37.970 And other people that might be more shy 01:08:37.970 --> 01:08:39.689 might not want to say something. 01:08:39.689 --> 01:08:42.350 So that's why you got people that online are talking heads, 01:08:42.350 --> 01:08:44.689 but physically won't say a word. 01:08:44.689 --> 01:08:45.890 So that adds new dynamics. 01:08:45.890 --> 01:08:47.348 And depending on the personalities, 01:08:47.348 --> 01:08:52.323 other people can excel, right? 01:08:52.323 --> 01:08:54.740 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: That's why I try to make some of you-- 01:08:54.740 --> 01:08:56.500 all of you-- be discussion leaders a lot 01:08:56.500 --> 01:08:57.870 in the course of this semester. 01:08:57.870 --> 01:09:01.885 MARTIN: I mean, the issue also is racism, equity, sexism. 01:09:01.885 --> 01:09:04.010 Like if you don't know the gender or the background 01:09:04.010 --> 01:09:06.860 of a person, you only judge them based on the ideas. 01:09:06.860 --> 01:09:08.235 Or the content of their character 01:09:08.235 --> 01:09:10.542 isn't a layer that you get. 01:09:10.542 --> 01:09:13.751 CHLOE: I think-- sorry, were you still expanding? 01:09:13.751 --> 01:09:15.126 MARTIN: Well, I was going to make 01:09:15.126 --> 01:09:17.840 a point of so that allows other people to lead 01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:20.490 or excel in this setting. 01:09:20.490 --> 01:09:20.990 CHLOE: Yeah. 01:09:20.990 --> 01:09:22.790 I mean, there's two sides to every coin. 01:09:22.790 --> 01:09:25.460 So I agree, the anonymity advantagement 01:09:25.460 --> 01:09:27.380 could definitely be a huge plus. 01:09:27.380 --> 01:09:30.170 But, I mean, when you have people trolling your classes, 01:09:30.170 --> 01:09:31.367 that's just as quickly-- 01:09:31.367 --> 01:09:32.200 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 01:09:32.200 --> 01:09:34.540 MARTIN: So the thing is, the post is like Piazza, right? 01:09:34.540 --> 01:09:36.140 Your posts can be anonymous, but the instructors 01:09:36.140 --> 01:09:37.140 know who you are. 01:09:37.140 --> 01:09:37.819 And I think-- 01:09:37.819 --> 01:09:40.450 [LAUGHTER] 01:09:40.450 --> 01:09:42.520 So they can just say, oh, please, 01:09:42.520 --> 01:09:43.770 or they'll just kick you out. 01:09:43.770 --> 01:09:43.880 CHLOE: True. 01:09:43.880 --> 01:09:45.899 MARTIN: And that's very like an 80-20 parental principle 01:09:45.899 --> 01:09:46.520 where-- 01:09:46.520 --> 01:09:48.279 I mean, I don't think everyone's going to just start trolling 01:09:48.279 --> 01:09:49.370 unless it becomes a thing. 01:09:49.370 --> 01:09:51.300 But it's an interesting dynamic. 01:09:51.300 --> 01:09:52.062 LILY: Yeah, Matt? 01:09:52.062 --> 01:09:54.020 MATT: I think even if we got to the point where 01:09:54.020 --> 01:09:55.470 the technology-- well, [INAUDIBLE].. 01:09:55.470 --> 01:09:56.845 Even if we got to the point where 01:09:56.845 --> 01:09:59.480 the technology was perfect and we could simulate 01:09:59.480 --> 01:10:01.790 being in this class together, I think 01:10:01.790 --> 01:10:04.790 there's still a lot of value in the fact that on my way home, 01:10:04.790 --> 01:10:08.270 I'll pass by the MechE lounge, and I'll talk to someone 01:10:08.270 --> 01:10:11.090 about their next startup idea. 01:10:11.090 --> 01:10:14.480 Just like when we talked about decentralizing manufacturing, 01:10:14.480 --> 01:10:17.330 there's a lot of know-how and innovation 01:10:17.330 --> 01:10:19.280 capability embodied in just having 01:10:19.280 --> 01:10:21.942 things together physically. 01:10:21.942 --> 01:10:23.900 But also with the whole blended learning model, 01:10:23.900 --> 01:10:25.490 I don't think anyone's really trying 01:10:25.490 --> 01:10:29.170 to say that we're going to throw away face-to-face interaction 01:10:29.170 --> 01:10:30.590 or anything like that. 01:10:30.590 --> 01:10:33.950 And then back to your original point about, 01:10:33.950 --> 01:10:38.250 what does online learning work really well for? 01:10:38.250 --> 01:10:42.405 I think right now my experience has been it works pretty well, 01:10:42.405 --> 01:10:46.840 or it's always better for quantitative kind of classes. 01:10:46.840 --> 01:10:49.290 But I've been working over the last semester 01:10:49.290 --> 01:10:51.830 and setting up an undergraduate law class here. 01:10:51.830 --> 01:10:57.260 And one of the initiatives is putting on a lot of the content 01:10:57.260 --> 01:10:58.160 online. 01:10:58.160 --> 01:11:03.290 And what we found that the MOOC format allows us to do 01:11:03.290 --> 01:11:06.050 is give maybe some of the instructional video 01:11:06.050 --> 01:11:08.530 in bite-sized pieces online beforehand, 01:11:08.530 --> 01:11:10.910 and it opens a lot of in-class time 01:11:10.910 --> 01:11:16.220 to actually do a case discussion and opens up new opportunities 01:11:16.220 --> 01:11:17.910 there. 01:11:17.910 --> 01:11:19.070 LILY: OK. 01:11:19.070 --> 01:11:21.170 STEPH: Oh, I was actually going to add to yours. 01:11:21.170 --> 01:11:25.010 I participated in the Europe and STS for a year 01:11:25.010 --> 01:11:27.390 with a professor named Louis Bucciarelli, who started off 01:11:27.390 --> 01:11:29.617 in mechanical engineering, has a PhD also 01:11:29.617 --> 01:11:31.200 in science, technology, and society, I 01:11:31.200 --> 01:11:33.508 think at the same time. 01:11:33.508 --> 01:11:36.050 And he talked for a long time, I think in AeroAstro, as well. 01:11:36.050 --> 01:11:40.460 So he's a very storied professional emeritus now. 01:11:40.460 --> 01:11:41.910 And he's starting a program called 01:11:41.910 --> 01:11:43.730 Liberal Studies in Engineering. 01:11:43.730 --> 01:11:45.500 And one of the challenges that we 01:11:45.500 --> 01:11:48.230 had when producing modules for the program 01:11:48.230 --> 01:11:52.625 is that although it did have the quantitative components 01:11:52.625 --> 01:11:55.280 that you're saying that I think are pretty easy to communicate, 01:11:55.280 --> 01:12:00.050 there was a lot of nuances behind the materials 01:12:00.050 --> 01:12:03.620 that we had selected that made it really complicated for us 01:12:03.620 --> 01:12:10.340 to convey both the content and to then ask questions about it. 01:12:10.340 --> 01:12:13.820 And I think one of the examples that most stood out to me 01:12:13.820 --> 01:12:17.000 was when we were doing a module on wells, 01:12:17.000 --> 01:12:23.700 and specifically implementing wells in the developing world 01:12:23.700 --> 01:12:25.685 in the community of Tanzania. 01:12:25.685 --> 01:12:27.060 There is a drawing of a well that 01:12:27.060 --> 01:12:30.340 had been built I think in the 16th or 17th century 01:12:30.340 --> 01:12:33.660 that he had scanned and put into the module. 01:12:33.660 --> 01:12:34.940 But it was not-- 01:12:34.940 --> 01:12:39.360 the mechanism by which the water was pulled up from the ground 01:12:39.360 --> 01:12:42.000 was not very clear, and the piston just 01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:44.370 was not very well-drawn. 01:12:44.370 --> 01:12:48.780 And that prevented a lot of-- 01:12:48.780 --> 01:12:51.053 I was the one who was writing a lot of the material, 01:12:51.053 --> 01:12:53.220 and it was then sent to me, and then I had to do it. 01:12:53.220 --> 01:12:54.678 And then I had to give him feedback 01:12:54.678 --> 01:12:55.890 on my process of doing it. 01:12:55.890 --> 01:12:57.390 And it prevented a lot of my ability 01:12:57.390 --> 01:12:58.590 to actually do the problems. 01:12:58.590 --> 01:13:00.840 So I think that's one of the really interesting things 01:13:00.840 --> 01:13:03.060 about MOOCs as well, and especially multidisciplinary 01:13:03.060 --> 01:13:06.480 MOOCs, that there are so many nuances behind the material, 01:13:06.480 --> 01:13:09.780 that even if the content seems fairly straightforward, if you 01:13:09.780 --> 01:13:11.813 have no way to interact-- or rather, 01:13:11.813 --> 01:13:13.230 if you don't have an immediate way 01:13:13.230 --> 01:13:16.110 to interact with the instructor, it 01:13:16.110 --> 01:13:18.090 does add an extra layer of complication 01:13:18.090 --> 01:13:20.160 in your ability to solve something. 01:13:20.160 --> 01:13:23.910 And I think that that's precisely why we benefit 01:13:23.910 --> 01:13:26.550 from the blended model, because then you can come to class 01:13:26.550 --> 01:13:28.290 and say, hey, professor, you uploaded 01:13:28.290 --> 01:13:32.160 this image in the problem set, and I have no idea how 01:13:32.160 --> 01:13:33.480 the piston actually operates. 01:13:33.480 --> 01:13:35.355 Could you explain this to me more thoroughly? 01:13:35.355 --> 01:13:37.583 Or could you redraw it and reupload it? 01:13:37.583 --> 01:13:40.000 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So part of the motivation, by the way, 01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:42.720 for filming this class is for us to think about whether or not 01:13:42.720 --> 01:13:46.440 we take more of the lectures segments online 01:13:46.440 --> 01:13:49.230 and then have even more of an organized discussion 01:13:49.230 --> 01:13:52.660 focus in that face-to-face classroom. 01:13:52.660 --> 01:13:56.340 So part of the reason of the filming 01:13:56.340 --> 01:13:58.540 here is to create an online course. 01:13:58.540 --> 01:14:01.230 But it's also possible to use this for more 01:14:01.230 --> 01:14:03.840 of a blended model here. 01:14:03.840 --> 01:14:05.880 LILY: So I wanted to come bring something up 01:14:05.880 --> 01:14:07.830 that Bill mentioned earlier, which I think 01:14:07.830 --> 01:14:13.910 will also transition us into the Bonvillian and Weiss reading. 01:14:13.910 --> 01:14:19.200 Bill mentioned graduate programs online. 01:14:19.200 --> 01:14:23.250 So you complete a year-long certificate sort of program, 01:14:23.250 --> 01:14:26.180 and then can complete the remainder of your graduate work 01:14:26.180 --> 01:14:27.980 on site. 01:14:27.980 --> 01:14:31.500 I think that's a really interesting model and idea, 01:14:31.500 --> 01:14:35.540 so I could see that working well for things like-- 01:14:35.540 --> 01:14:36.973 well, first of all-- 01:14:36.973 --> 01:14:38.640 I could see that working well for things 01:14:38.640 --> 01:14:41.610 like maybe business, engineering, computer 01:14:41.610 --> 01:14:43.110 science, et cetera. 01:14:43.110 --> 01:14:47.040 And those graduate programs are typically quite expensive 01:14:47.040 --> 01:14:48.660 and can be two to three years. 01:14:48.660 --> 01:14:54.360 And unlike a lot of PhD programs or science programs, 01:14:54.360 --> 01:14:56.220 it's not paid for. 01:14:56.220 --> 01:15:00.970 So we're talking maybe $50,000 a year for two to three years. 01:15:00.970 --> 01:15:03.630 Which brings me to something that 01:15:03.630 --> 01:15:07.680 came up in Bill's reading, which is student loans and increasing 01:15:07.680 --> 01:15:08.760 levels of student loans. 01:15:08.760 --> 01:15:11.040 And I was doing a little bit of research. 01:15:11.040 --> 01:15:14.850 Does anyone have any idea what the current outstanding student 01:15:14.850 --> 01:15:15.855 loan debt is in the US? 01:15:15.855 --> 01:15:17.230 SPEAKER 2: Isn't there trillions? 01:15:17.230 --> 01:15:18.563 MARTIN: Easily in the trillions. 01:15:18.563 --> 01:15:20.010 LILY: Yeah, $1.5 trillion. 01:15:20.010 --> 01:15:22.920 [LAUGHS] And they're not collateralized 01:15:22.920 --> 01:15:25.170 and the default rates are increasing. 01:15:25.170 --> 01:15:26.880 SPEAKER 2: Wait, they are? 01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:29.570 Last I heard, I thought they were down. 01:15:29.570 --> 01:15:34.343 LILY: Not according to the 2017 statistics. 01:15:34.343 --> 01:15:35.010 SPEAKER 2: Crap. 01:15:35.010 --> 01:15:36.650 What I heard was in 2016, so-- 01:15:36.650 --> 01:15:38.141 [LAUGHTER] 01:15:40.630 --> 01:15:43.280 LILY: So with that in mind, could 01:15:43.280 --> 01:15:49.250 the master's program blended online, then concatenated 01:15:49.250 --> 01:15:56.690 or shorthand on-site learning, improve the situation 01:15:56.690 --> 01:15:59.630 with student loan debt, while still 01:15:59.630 --> 01:16:03.793 qualifying the person with a graduate degree? 01:16:03.793 --> 01:16:05.210 SPEAKER 1: I would just be curious 01:16:05.210 --> 01:16:07.168 what the breakdown is between different fields. 01:16:07.168 --> 01:16:10.970 Because I know for MBAs and law schools, so much of it 01:16:10.970 --> 01:16:13.100 is building your network while you're there. 01:16:13.100 --> 01:16:15.590 So people are willing to take on hundreds of thousands 01:16:15.590 --> 01:16:19.970 of dollars in loans just to have connections to the Harvard 01:16:19.970 --> 01:16:21.910 community or whatever. 01:16:21.910 --> 01:16:26.270 So if that is only a small section of the total loans that 01:16:26.270 --> 01:16:28.530 are outstanding, then I think this could be impactful. 01:16:28.530 --> 01:16:30.170 But if that's outweighing it-- 01:16:30.170 --> 01:16:31.520 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I'm not worried about that class 01:16:31.520 --> 01:16:32.420 repaying the loans. 01:16:32.420 --> 01:16:33.020 They're OK. 01:16:33.020 --> 01:16:33.540 [LAUGHTER] 01:16:33.540 --> 01:16:35.642 SPEAKER 1: But that would still be considered 01:16:35.642 --> 01:16:36.850 part of the statistic, right? 01:16:36.850 --> 01:16:41.533 Because the first year out, they might owe $300,000 in loans. 01:16:41.533 --> 01:16:42.950 And while they are paying it back, 01:16:42.950 --> 01:16:44.908 I think they would still be willing to take out 01:16:44.908 --> 01:16:48.110 $300,000 of loans regardless of new technologies. 01:16:48.110 --> 01:16:51.110 STEPH: This also assumes the goodness of the programs that 01:16:51.110 --> 01:16:53.750 are putting out these courses. 01:16:53.750 --> 01:16:56.750 There's a lot of, I think, predatory-- 01:16:56.750 --> 01:16:58.528 what is the name of the one that just 01:16:58.528 --> 01:17:01.070 got shut down that was really bad, the University of Phoenix? 01:17:01.070 --> 01:17:02.360 SPEAKER 1: It's called The University. 01:17:02.360 --> 01:17:03.290 LILY: That's the one. 01:17:03.290 --> 01:17:03.790 [LAUGHS] 01:17:03.790 --> 01:17:05.215 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 01:17:05.215 --> 01:17:07.090 STEPH: Yeah, it sort of presumes the goodness 01:17:07.090 --> 01:17:08.470 of a lot of these organizations. 01:17:08.470 --> 01:17:09.500 MARTIN: Well, yeah, we're assuming 01:17:09.500 --> 01:17:10.990 they're all elite ones, where it's like, 01:17:10.990 --> 01:17:12.500 we're sure you're going to get something [INAUDIBLE].. 01:17:12.500 --> 01:17:13.470 STEPH: Yeah, exactly. 01:17:13.470 --> 01:17:15.530 And it also presumes that they're useful, 01:17:15.530 --> 01:17:20.210 like there's an instrumentality or a utility coefficient 01:17:20.210 --> 01:17:23.120 that you gain from having participated in these courses. 01:17:23.120 --> 01:17:25.135 And I don't know if the return on investment 01:17:25.135 --> 01:17:27.260 is going to be good for someone who doesn't already 01:17:27.260 --> 01:17:30.860 have a foundational degree in something. 01:17:30.860 --> 01:17:33.260 It assumes that the job market is 01:17:33.260 --> 01:17:36.710 willing to accept the people who are 01:17:36.710 --> 01:17:38.100 graduating with this knowledge. 01:17:38.100 --> 01:17:42.128 And I don't know if that's true right now. 01:17:42.128 --> 01:17:43.670 LILY: There's a really good breakdown 01:17:43.670 --> 01:17:47.210 on four-year universities, by the way, not just 01:17:47.210 --> 01:17:48.380 graduate programs. 01:17:48.380 --> 01:17:49.370 So, yeah. 01:17:49.370 --> 01:17:50.870 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So, Lily, do you 01:17:50.870 --> 01:17:54.740 want to make a closing set of points about these two 01:17:54.740 --> 01:17:57.440 readings? 01:17:57.440 --> 01:17:58.250 LILY: Yeah. 01:17:58.250 --> 01:18:00.980 Pay off your student loans and don't default on them or else 01:18:00.980 --> 01:18:03.540 our entire economy can collapse. 01:18:03.540 --> 01:18:04.590 SPEAKER 2: Again? 01:18:04.590 --> 01:18:05.090 LILY: Again. 01:18:05.090 --> 01:18:07.090 Well, these are the kinds of numbers-- you know, 01:18:07.090 --> 01:18:09.740 there's a critical default number, just as with 01:18:09.740 --> 01:18:10.850 the housing market. 01:18:10.850 --> 01:18:12.530 SPEAKER 2: All right, so we need to all buy shorts-- 01:18:12.530 --> 01:18:12.970 [LAUGHTER] 01:18:12.970 --> 01:18:15.157 LILY: I don't know, how do you short something that's 01:18:15.157 --> 01:18:15.795 not collateralized? 01:18:15.795 --> 01:18:17.060 MARTIN: There's a whole thing about-- yeah, this being 01:18:17.060 --> 01:18:18.950 a bubble, the education bubble. 01:18:18.950 --> 01:18:22.160 I read a big thing about Peter Thiel 01:18:22.160 --> 01:18:24.210 since we brought him up in the first class. 01:18:24.210 --> 01:18:26.000 RASHID: I think my favorite example 01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:29.210 is there's federally subsidized student loans. 01:18:29.210 --> 01:18:32.210 And if you get clever, you can use your federally subsidized 01:18:32.210 --> 01:18:34.760 student loans to invest properly, and then 01:18:34.760 --> 01:18:36.860 flip those, because those are inherently safer. 01:18:36.860 --> 01:18:39.093 So even if you don't want to-- 01:18:39.093 --> 01:18:40.760 I should say, there are a lot of options 01:18:40.760 --> 01:18:42.447 to pay back your student loans. 01:18:42.447 --> 01:18:44.030 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So, Lily, bring us 01:18:44.030 --> 01:18:47.150 to a couple of key conclusions about the two readings. 01:18:47.150 --> 01:18:50.520 LILY: Conclusions, let's see. 01:18:50.520 --> 01:18:54.440 Let me go to my notes. 01:18:54.440 --> 01:18:56.600 I think, in general, the readings 01:18:56.600 --> 01:18:59.840 led us to believe that online learning, or at least 01:18:59.840 --> 01:19:07.190 blended learning, is going to increase in usage 01:19:07.190 --> 01:19:11.360 or popularity, whether the institutions, the universities, 01:19:11.360 --> 01:19:13.790 like it or not. 01:19:13.790 --> 01:19:17.430 And I don't know. 01:19:17.430 --> 01:19:19.858 I think I covered everything else that I had thought of. 01:19:19.858 --> 01:19:20.900 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Good. 01:19:20.900 --> 01:19:23.750 Let me do just a quick wrap up. 01:19:23.750 --> 01:19:27.140 Freeman taught us about the talent base 01:19:27.140 --> 01:19:30.500 and how it's going to affect the innovation system 01:19:30.500 --> 01:19:33.020 and made us aware of the fact that the SNT talent 01:19:33.020 --> 01:19:36.710 base is going to be a pretty key component of US 01:19:36.710 --> 01:19:39.000 overall comparative advantage, as other people move 01:19:39.000 --> 01:19:41.590 to copy the model. 01:19:41.590 --> 01:19:46.010 Romer's core point was that government policy is focused 01:19:46.010 --> 01:19:52.160 really on a capital supply and really on the demand 01:19:52.160 --> 01:19:54.740 side of the equation, right? 01:19:54.740 --> 01:19:57.170 And that the talent supply system really 01:19:57.170 --> 01:19:59.480 was not a particularly significant federal government 01:19:59.480 --> 01:20:01.040 focus. 01:20:01.040 --> 01:20:04.192 It probably needs to be, because that's a very important factor 01:20:04.192 --> 01:20:05.900 in innovation, as we've discussed earlier 01:20:05.900 --> 01:20:08.720 with his prospector theory. 01:20:08.720 --> 01:20:13.280 And then he drove us to look at higher educational institutions 01:20:13.280 --> 01:20:15.920 and how they don't get the economic signaling that 01:20:15.920 --> 01:20:18.710 would lead them to increase the supply. 01:20:18.710 --> 01:20:22.010 And he helped us think about what some of the barriers were 01:20:22.010 --> 01:20:23.630 and how you could change that economic 01:20:23.630 --> 01:20:26.600 signaling to change the way in which the higher education 01:20:26.600 --> 01:20:28.900 system dealt with the supply kit question. 01:20:28.900 --> 01:20:33.260 Katz and Goldin taught us about the tie 01:20:33.260 --> 01:20:36.200 between the ever-increasing technology 01:20:36.200 --> 01:20:37.577 requirements of the economy. 01:20:37.577 --> 01:20:40.160 Since the Industrial Revolution, we've been on a rising curve, 01:20:40.160 --> 01:20:42.110 and it may be accelerating. 01:20:42.110 --> 01:20:43.880 And then they demonstrated for us 01:20:43.880 --> 01:20:47.780 how important it is to keep the education curve, the talent 01:20:47.780 --> 01:20:51.440 base, ahead of that curve, playing off of that curve. 01:20:51.440 --> 01:20:55.640 If you let them cross, like we did in the 1970s, then 01:20:55.640 --> 01:20:57.590 you start to drive towards pretty serious 01:20:57.590 --> 01:20:59.570 economic inequality problems, because you're 01:20:59.570 --> 01:21:02.990 leaving a large part of your population behind, 01:21:02.990 --> 01:21:07.040 unable to get back on that rising parallel 01:21:07.040 --> 01:21:08.930 and stay up with the technology curve 01:21:08.930 --> 01:21:11.780 and earn the corresponding incomes. 01:21:11.780 --> 01:21:15.170 Bamol alerted us to the fact that education 01:21:15.170 --> 01:21:20.120 for invention and innovation, by the way, 01:21:20.120 --> 01:21:23.840 looks different than standard education systems in science 01:21:23.840 --> 01:21:27.110 and technology today, which are more geared, 01:21:27.110 --> 01:21:31.430 historically, towards incremental advances. 01:21:31.430 --> 01:21:34.910 MIT's Online Education Report got 01:21:34.910 --> 01:21:36.410 us thinking about learning science, 01:21:36.410 --> 01:21:39.800 how you could apply learning science to really optimize 01:21:39.800 --> 01:21:43.730 both the online model and the blended learning model. 01:21:43.730 --> 01:21:46.310 And then the reading from the textbook 01:21:46.310 --> 01:21:49.040 showed us a set of the challenges 01:21:49.040 --> 01:21:52.340 for online education, how it's a potentially disruptive tool 01:21:52.340 --> 01:21:54.855 in a legacy sector education system, 01:21:54.855 --> 01:21:57.230 and got us thinking about, who are the change agents that 01:21:57.230 --> 01:22:00.950 might really drive the optimal model, which is really probably 01:22:00.950 --> 01:22:03.400 a blended learning model.