WEBVTT 00:00:00.090 --> 00:00:02.430 The following content is provided under a Creative 00:00:02.430 --> 00:00:03.820 Commons license. 00:00:03.820 --> 00:00:06.030 Your support will help MIT Open CourseWare 00:00:06.030 --> 00:00:10.120 continue to offer high-quality educational resources for free. 00:00:10.120 --> 00:00:12.660 To make a donation or to view additional materials 00:00:12.660 --> 00:00:16.620 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 00:00:16.620 --> 00:00:17.992 at ocw.mit.edu. 00:00:22.300 --> 00:00:24.550 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So this is the great groups class. 00:00:24.550 --> 00:00:27.310 Let me do a quick background here to get us up 00:00:27.310 --> 00:00:31.310 to where we are at the moment. 00:00:31.310 --> 00:00:36.650 And then, I'll just do a quick overview of the William Rosen 00:00:36.650 --> 00:00:39.020 book on the Industrial Revolution. 00:00:39.020 --> 00:00:44.150 And I'll do just a summary the Bennis and Biederman rules. 00:00:44.150 --> 00:00:46.310 And then it's your class. 00:00:46.310 --> 00:00:50.840 So, quick background, you remember these characters Solo, 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:56.430 Robert Solo, and Paul Romer, and we'll just do a quick recap. 00:00:56.430 --> 00:01:02.080 But Solo, essentially, taught us that technological and related 00:01:02.080 --> 00:01:06.640 innovation is the dominant causative factor of growth. 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:09.240 Romer taught us that behind that, in effect, 00:01:09.240 --> 00:01:13.360 R&D system is what he calls human capital engaged 00:01:13.360 --> 00:01:13.880 in research. 00:01:13.880 --> 00:01:17.040 In other words, it's the talent base that's in that system, 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:21.250 that these are to direct innovation factors. 00:01:21.250 --> 00:01:25.810 And then, there's a whole set in this complex ecosystem 00:01:25.810 --> 00:01:26.600 of innovation. 00:01:26.600 --> 00:01:31.580 There's a whole set of direct and indirect factors. 00:01:31.580 --> 00:01:34.750 So, Solo and Romer, we just talked about, 00:01:34.750 --> 00:01:39.145 then innovation occurs in a complex kind of ecosystem 00:01:39.145 --> 00:01:40.020 of different factors. 00:01:40.020 --> 00:01:45.030 Some are direct, like talent and R&D. Some are much less direct. 00:01:45.030 --> 00:01:46.890 Some are set by the private sector. 00:01:46.890 --> 00:01:49.270 Some are set by government. 00:01:49.270 --> 00:01:52.110 And you can see here that rich list 00:01:52.110 --> 00:01:54.120 of kind of factors that aren't as central, 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:57.330 that aren't as critical, but still must be accounted for. 00:01:57.330 --> 00:02:00.430 In looking at that system, they do play within that innovation 00:02:00.430 --> 00:02:00.930 system. 00:02:03.590 --> 00:02:05.897 And then, a third question, which 00:02:05.897 --> 00:02:07.730 has been at the heart of a lot of what we've 00:02:07.730 --> 00:02:11.330 been talking about in class, is there a third direct innovation 00:02:11.330 --> 00:02:12.020 factor? 00:02:12.020 --> 00:02:15.110 And arguably, the organization of science and technology 00:02:15.110 --> 00:02:17.900 is that factor. 00:02:17.900 --> 00:02:23.800 So, we talked about how the US innovation system evolved 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:27.190 and kind of told the story of its evolution 00:02:27.190 --> 00:02:30.100 in that World War II time table. 00:02:30.100 --> 00:02:33.290 The Rad Lab at MIT was an important foundational moment. 00:02:33.290 --> 00:02:39.430 Vannevar Bush was the author of that kind of leading tract 00:02:39.430 --> 00:02:41.530 on what the US post-war innovation 00:02:41.530 --> 00:02:43.450 system was going to look like. 00:02:43.450 --> 00:02:46.390 And his model led to the creation in-- 00:02:46.390 --> 00:02:48.640 and the continuation, really starting in World War II, 00:02:48.640 --> 00:02:51.580 it started in World War II, of the federally funded research 00:02:51.580 --> 00:02:55.300 university, and then the plethora of basic science 00:02:55.300 --> 00:02:56.950 research agencies in the US. 00:02:56.950 --> 00:03:00.900 So, that's innovation on the institutional level. 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:05.400 But, as we've talked about before people innovate, not 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:11.010 institutions, which is really the topic of today's class. 00:03:11.010 --> 00:03:14.560 And we're going to run through a series of great innovation 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:15.060 groups. 00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:17.950 We'll run through five of them. 00:03:17.950 --> 00:03:25.510 So, we'll lay out Edison and Bardeen, Oppenheimer, 00:03:25.510 --> 00:03:29.900 the Xerox PARC group, Boyer and Swanson, and Craig Venter. 00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:34.250 So, we'll do a group of three that sort of came out 00:03:34.250 --> 00:03:37.520 of the earlier physical sciences side into the IT side, 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:43.900 and then we'll do two life science leaders and groups. 00:03:43.900 --> 00:03:48.250 Just as background, William Rosen 00:03:48.250 --> 00:03:50.680 wrote this book called The Industrial Revolution 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:55.600 in Britain, and he has important lessons for us 00:03:55.600 --> 00:03:58.830 on the process of innovation, and I'll just recap. 00:03:58.830 --> 00:04:02.890 I'll just pull out of that book some thoughts that may help us 00:04:02.890 --> 00:04:06.850 think a little bit in the big picture kind of way 00:04:06.850 --> 00:04:09.170 about some of these issues. 00:04:09.170 --> 00:04:13.500 First, he identifies something called the intelligent hand. 00:04:13.500 --> 00:04:18.420 And that concept is taken from Charles Bell, 00:04:18.420 --> 00:04:21.300 but it really originates in Immanuel Kant 00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:24.750 who identified the hand as a window in the world. 00:04:24.750 --> 00:04:29.850 And since MIT's model is mind and hand, in other words, 00:04:29.850 --> 00:04:32.780 in many ways, it's learning by doing, 00:04:32.780 --> 00:04:35.360 that's an important conceptual framework 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:38.690 when we begin to think about innovation that's clearly not 00:04:38.690 --> 00:04:39.710 mind only. 00:04:39.710 --> 00:04:41.480 It is clearly mind and hand. 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:43.010 It's the combination of the ability 00:04:43.010 --> 00:04:45.290 to do things physically and in a tactile way, 00:04:45.290 --> 00:04:48.477 carry them out as well as think those great conceptual 00:04:48.477 --> 00:04:49.310 organizing thoughts. 00:04:52.890 --> 00:04:58.350 Davinci combines, and I've just been 00:04:58.350 --> 00:05:00.360 reading a biography of him, but he 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:04.050 amazingly in his thousands of pages of notebooks 00:05:04.050 --> 00:05:09.760 combines his incredible ability to do art and draw 00:05:09.760 --> 00:05:14.920 with his highly inventive skill set of imagining 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:17.110 all kinds of new machines, right, 00:05:17.110 --> 00:05:19.810 that were unimagined in the context of the 1500's 00:05:19.810 --> 00:05:22.010 when he's writing. 00:05:22.010 --> 00:05:23.285 Helicopters, as one example. 00:05:26.820 --> 00:05:32.250 His ability to see and conceptually see and draw 00:05:32.250 --> 00:05:36.720 helps enable him to invent these big conceptual ideas. 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:40.550 So that's another way of looking at mind and hand. 00:05:40.550 --> 00:05:41.160 Right. 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:43.710 Another way of looking at the intelligent hand. 00:05:43.710 --> 00:05:47.280 So Rosen argues that the visual, and the tactile, 00:05:47.280 --> 00:05:51.000 and the mind, and the eye, and the hand, 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:58.320 are all critical in this innovation invention process. 00:05:58.320 --> 00:06:04.500 Just to quote-- to take a few moments here and pull moments 00:06:04.500 --> 00:06:06.510 out of his book, one is what he calls 00:06:06.510 --> 00:06:07.830 the flash of insight problem. 00:06:07.830 --> 00:06:12.060 And the example he provides is James Watt 00:06:12.060 --> 00:06:15.080 is walking on the green of Glasgow. 00:06:15.080 --> 00:06:18.980 And in that moment, and, of course, 00:06:18.980 --> 00:06:23.620 it's Scotland, so he's walking past the golf shack. 00:06:23.620 --> 00:06:24.120 Right. 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:24.870 Where else? 00:06:24.870 --> 00:06:25.820 Right. 00:06:25.820 --> 00:06:30.200 He has the idea for condensation in achieving 00:06:30.200 --> 00:06:33.150 a much higher level of efficiency of steam power. 00:06:33.150 --> 00:06:37.580 So, there are steam engines working in mines prior to Watt, 00:06:37.580 --> 00:06:43.850 but it's that walk on the green where he writes 00:06:43.850 --> 00:06:46.980 that the inside came together. 00:06:46.980 --> 00:06:50.740 But, we have to put this into the context. 00:06:50.740 --> 00:06:53.890 His insight, as he's walking next to the golf shack, 00:06:53.890 --> 00:06:57.130 appears effortless, but it's built 00:06:57.130 --> 00:07:02.710 on a long term project of understanding 00:07:02.710 --> 00:07:04.660 how steam power worked. 00:07:04.660 --> 00:07:07.420 And Watt is an interesting figure 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:11.320 because he comes out of a poor background in Scotland. 00:07:11.320 --> 00:07:13.990 He gets-- he's a skilled artisan. 00:07:13.990 --> 00:07:17.420 He becomes an instrument maker. 00:07:17.420 --> 00:07:20.330 So, he's working on early scientific, and navigational, 00:07:20.330 --> 00:07:24.290 and astronomy instruments. 00:07:24.290 --> 00:07:27.170 And he works in London, and he's exposed 00:07:27.170 --> 00:07:30.110 to the finest skilled artisans working 00:07:30.110 --> 00:07:31.910 on those early scientific instruments. 00:07:31.910 --> 00:07:34.670 He comes back to Glasgow. 00:07:34.670 --> 00:07:38.450 He's blocked by the local Guild from setting up 00:07:38.450 --> 00:07:41.533 his own instrument shop. 00:07:41.533 --> 00:07:42.450 What's he going to do? 00:07:42.450 --> 00:07:45.290 He takes a job at the University of Edinburgh 00:07:45.290 --> 00:07:47.430 and actually becomes quite a close friend 00:07:47.430 --> 00:07:51.980 of Adam Smith who's inventing economics at the same time. 00:07:51.980 --> 00:07:57.730 And he digs into, in depth, into steam engines, 00:07:57.730 --> 00:08:01.300 and begins to develop concepts of how they actually 00:08:01.300 --> 00:08:02.260 function and work. 00:08:02.260 --> 00:08:05.050 I mean, this is pre-thermodynamics. 00:08:05.050 --> 00:08:10.680 But Watt is developing a lot of those early idea 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:17.080 concepts that will lead to that conceptual kind of framework. 00:08:17.080 --> 00:08:18.710 And he spends 10 years on that project 00:08:18.710 --> 00:08:20.740 before he has the walk on the green. 00:08:20.740 --> 00:08:21.380 Right. 00:08:21.380 --> 00:08:23.100 Doing these various projects. 00:08:23.100 --> 00:08:28.850 So it's that 10 years that enables the insight. 00:08:28.850 --> 00:08:32.900 So, Anders Ericsson who Rosen also writes about 00:08:32.900 --> 00:08:35.700 develops the expert performance model. 00:08:35.700 --> 00:08:37.700 Its time on task. 00:08:37.700 --> 00:08:40.049 It's not talent alone. 00:08:40.049 --> 00:08:43.049 So, it's really important to do those 10,000 00:08:43.049 --> 00:08:46.350 hours of practicing before you can pretend 00:08:46.350 --> 00:08:48.550 to be a serious musician. 00:08:48.550 --> 00:08:49.790 Right. 00:08:49.790 --> 00:08:53.250 So, you may appear musically fluent, 00:08:53.250 --> 00:08:55.910 but those 10,000 hours of practice 00:08:55.910 --> 00:08:58.990 turn out to be absolutely critical foundations. 00:08:58.990 --> 00:09:03.210 So, it's this combination of expert performance, 00:09:03.210 --> 00:09:06.670 Anders Ericsson Ericsson would argue, 00:09:06.670 --> 00:09:08.920 with that intellectual capability 00:09:08.920 --> 00:09:11.050 that's very key here. 00:09:11.050 --> 00:09:14.710 Michael Polanyi, a philosopher and psychologist 00:09:14.710 --> 00:09:17.290 thinks about learning by doing. 00:09:17.290 --> 00:09:19.700 What does that process look like? 00:09:19.700 --> 00:09:24.250 And he develops a whole concept of tactile knowing, 00:09:24.250 --> 00:09:28.270 that it's a combination of knowledge and skills, 00:09:28.270 --> 00:09:31.360 actual physical tactile kinds of skills. 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:36.880 Eric Kandel begins the work in neuroscience and beginning 00:09:36.880 --> 00:09:42.420 to tell us how learning can occur. 00:09:42.420 --> 00:09:53.050 And he's there great Columbia neuroscientist Nobel winner. 00:09:53.050 --> 00:09:59.460 He tells us how the brain chemistry 00:09:59.460 --> 00:10:05.040 changes in the course of actual tactile experience. 00:10:05.040 --> 00:10:06.900 Right. 00:10:06.900 --> 00:10:10.250 Which helps us understand why that-- 00:10:10.250 --> 00:10:14.900 its mind and hand in combination. 00:10:14.900 --> 00:10:18.300 So, let me let me leave those there. 00:10:18.300 --> 00:10:20.840 And then, turn to Warren Bennis and Patricia Ward 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.950 Biederman who wrote this book called Organizing Genius back 00:10:24.950 --> 00:10:28.070 in 1997. 00:10:28.070 --> 00:10:32.920 So Bennis had been an MIT faculty member. 00:10:32.920 --> 00:10:35.470 He became president of a university in Ohio. 00:10:35.470 --> 00:10:37.840 He then moved to teach business at USC, 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:42.630 which is where he's writing this book from along with Patricia 00:10:42.630 --> 00:10:44.340 Biderman from USC. 00:10:46.940 --> 00:10:50.420 And they, after watching closely a lot of innovation groups, 00:10:50.420 --> 00:10:54.570 as you all saw, they develop the idea 00:10:54.570 --> 00:11:00.390 that these groups seem to operate on rule systems. 00:11:00.390 --> 00:11:03.810 That there are kind of rules to govern a group. 00:11:03.810 --> 00:11:06.540 And that these different innovation groups 00:11:06.540 --> 00:11:09.870 share a lot of rules. 00:11:09.870 --> 00:11:12.320 So, that's the key concept here that we're 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:14.930 going to be playing when we discuss our great groups here 00:11:14.930 --> 00:11:15.490 in class. 00:11:20.010 --> 00:11:22.215 And they run through-- 00:11:22.215 --> 00:11:24.090 I'll just run through some of the basic rules 00:11:24.090 --> 00:11:26.160 that you all, you know, by now are familiar with, 00:11:26.160 --> 00:11:30.260 but they argue that greatness starts with superb people. 00:11:30.260 --> 00:11:33.520 And they quote Bob Taylor of Xerox PARC, 00:11:33.520 --> 00:11:35.270 you can't pile together enough good people 00:11:35.270 --> 00:11:37.550 to make a great one. 00:11:37.550 --> 00:11:42.490 That great groups and great leaders both need each other, 00:11:42.490 --> 00:11:44.650 and create each other, and enable each other, 00:11:44.650 --> 00:11:48.080 that it's not leadership alone, it's the group 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:50.530 and the group needs leadership. 00:11:50.530 --> 00:11:52.630 But the leadership have got to be able to play off 00:11:52.630 --> 00:11:54.670 of and interact with a group. 00:11:54.670 --> 00:11:58.410 And we'll see different leadership styles 00:11:58.410 --> 00:12:00.130 in putting these great groups together 00:12:00.130 --> 00:12:02.860 as we talk about these groups today. 00:12:02.860 --> 00:12:06.230 Great group leaders love talent and know how to find it. 00:12:06.230 --> 00:12:06.730 Right. 00:12:06.730 --> 00:12:08.290 That's to create a great group you 00:12:08.290 --> 00:12:10.060 got have great talent in it. 00:12:10.060 --> 00:12:14.690 And a role of the great group leader is to find that talent. 00:12:14.690 --> 00:12:18.670 The talent in great groups can work together. 00:12:18.670 --> 00:12:20.980 And in the Oppenheimer story, Beth, 00:12:20.980 --> 00:12:24.220 you're going to tell us some of the dissonance points 00:12:24.220 --> 00:12:28.060 I'm sure in that great group. 00:12:28.060 --> 00:12:30.580 And certainly-- and Martin and the Bardeen, Brattain, 00:12:30.580 --> 00:12:32.440 and Shockley story, you're going to tell us 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.020 about some of the dissidents in that great group 00:12:35.020 --> 00:12:37.530 that kind of blew it up. 00:12:37.530 --> 00:12:40.010 Great groups like to think they're on a mission from God. 00:12:40.010 --> 00:12:41.547 In other words, they have to believe 00:12:41.547 --> 00:12:43.380 that this is the most important mission that 00:12:43.380 --> 00:12:44.505 could ever possibly happen. 00:12:44.505 --> 00:12:46.450 Otherwise, they never get anywhere. 00:12:46.450 --> 00:12:48.800 So they have enormous zeal. 00:12:48.800 --> 00:12:49.440 Right. 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.450 And it's almost a kind of religious zeal 00:12:51.450 --> 00:12:55.590 as they embark on their projects. 00:12:55.590 --> 00:12:57.810 They wear blinders. 00:12:57.810 --> 00:13:01.470 In other words, they can focus only on their project. 00:13:01.470 --> 00:13:07.960 They can stay on task And make that their entire focus. 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:10.450 Otherwise, again, would they get there? 00:13:10.450 --> 00:13:11.770 They are optimistic. 00:13:11.770 --> 00:13:13.960 They are not realistic. 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:17.470 So, if they were realistic about what they were attempting, 00:13:17.470 --> 00:13:19.790 they would never try it. 00:13:19.790 --> 00:13:22.700 But, because they are optimists, they 00:13:22.700 --> 00:13:25.670 have the willingness to persevere in the expectation 00:13:25.670 --> 00:13:28.120 that something is going to happen. 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:30.310 Great groups are islands, but they have a bridge 00:13:30.310 --> 00:13:31.180 to the mainland. 00:13:31.180 --> 00:13:34.250 So, Luyao, when she tells us about the Xerox PARC story, 00:13:34.250 --> 00:13:37.240 is going to tell us the classic island bridge story. 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.100 But typically, great groups need to get put 00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:44.040 on an island, a protected island, 00:13:44.040 --> 00:13:45.870 out of the control of bureaucracies, 00:13:45.870 --> 00:13:49.260 out of the control of the suits, where 00:13:49.260 --> 00:13:50.880 they can do their own thing, where 00:13:50.880 --> 00:13:53.040 they can come up with their inventions 00:13:53.040 --> 00:13:55.650 and then innovations. 00:13:55.650 --> 00:13:58.110 But, nothing happens to those innovations 00:13:58.110 --> 00:14:01.490 unless they have a bridge back to decision makers 00:14:01.490 --> 00:14:04.350 that enable those technologies to get effectuated, 00:14:04.350 --> 00:14:06.210 to be put into place. 00:14:06.210 --> 00:14:08.370 Great groups have an enemy. 00:14:08.370 --> 00:14:11.880 Probably the most famous in your time, 00:14:11.880 --> 00:14:13.380 maybe you're all too young for this, 00:14:13.380 --> 00:14:16.590 remember those big blue commercials that Steve Jobs ran 00:14:16.590 --> 00:14:19.530 during super bowls? 00:14:19.530 --> 00:14:27.930 You know attacking IBM and its minions who were wearing suits 00:14:27.930 --> 00:14:31.470 in this kind of dark Orwellian advertisement 00:14:31.470 --> 00:14:34.000 talking about Apple is up against this, 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:37.230 you know, authoritarian IBM enemy. 00:14:37.230 --> 00:14:37.950 Right. 00:14:37.950 --> 00:14:41.020 It was a shocking ad at the time. 00:14:41.020 --> 00:14:43.020 But it gives you a very good example 00:14:43.020 --> 00:14:46.050 of just how it felt to be at Apple pushing up 00:14:46.050 --> 00:14:51.750 against IBM's PC trying to get your Mac out the door. 00:14:51.750 --> 00:14:56.270 Great groups have the right person in the right job. 00:14:56.270 --> 00:14:59.810 They have to avoid what we could call Hollywood syndrome, right, 00:14:59.810 --> 00:15:01.040 where everybody is a star. 00:15:01.040 --> 00:15:03.920 They've got to find ways by which everybody contributes, 00:15:03.920 --> 00:15:07.690 and has a critical area that they can handle. 00:15:07.690 --> 00:15:11.630 The groups give their talent whatever they need to thrive, 00:15:11.630 --> 00:15:15.680 and they free them from anything else. 00:15:15.680 --> 00:15:18.570 The group needs protection from the outside forces. 00:15:18.570 --> 00:15:21.120 Typically these groups are very high morale. 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:22.855 They're having a wonderful time. 00:15:22.855 --> 00:15:24.480 They're having the time of their lives. 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:31.280 It is , funny and exciting, and it's 24/7, 00:15:31.280 --> 00:15:33.030 but they're having the times of the lives. 00:15:33.030 --> 00:15:36.000 And when they write later about what it was like, 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:39.170 these are high points in their lives. 00:15:39.170 --> 00:15:42.140 Tyranny destroys the collaboration. 00:15:42.140 --> 00:15:44.330 So, in a way, they've got to be, and we'll 00:15:44.330 --> 00:15:47.690 see different leadership styles because it's by no means 00:15:47.690 --> 00:15:50.510 always democratic, but there's got to be an ability 00:15:50.510 --> 00:15:52.230 to pitch in and contribute. 00:15:52.230 --> 00:15:52.830 Yeah, Max? 00:15:53.007 --> 00:15:53.860 AUDIENCE: Yeah, I was just going to ask 00:15:53.860 --> 00:15:54.980 how does Apple fit in there? 00:15:54.980 --> 00:15:55.430 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah, well, it's 00:15:55.430 --> 00:15:57.290 going to be a very interesting set of questions. 00:15:57.290 --> 00:15:57.770 MARTIN: Yeah. 00:15:57.770 --> 00:15:58.340 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: And maybe we'll 00:15:58.340 --> 00:16:01.040 raise that when we think about how Thomas Edison operates 00:16:01.040 --> 00:16:03.920 as a leader in that kind of 19th century leadership 00:16:03.920 --> 00:16:07.390 context, which is different than our era. 00:16:07.390 --> 00:16:08.750 Teams are collaborative. 00:16:08.750 --> 00:16:11.470 They need to be flat and non-hierarchical, and pretty 00:16:11.470 --> 00:16:13.740 democratic. 00:16:13.740 --> 00:16:16.920 A lot of these rules we start to see in the Rad Lab, 00:16:16.920 --> 00:16:20.160 this is kind of how the Rad Lab functions 00:16:20.160 --> 00:16:22.350 in developing the first federally funded research 00:16:22.350 --> 00:16:25.365 and development center, creating the model for that. 00:16:25.365 --> 00:16:29.100 The Rad Lab follows a lot of these rules. 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:31.920 They use the challenge mission, challenge model. 00:16:31.920 --> 00:16:33.360 In other words, they've got to be 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.320 solving a really big problem. 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.410 This is not curiosity driven research. 00:16:37.410 --> 00:16:39.350 This is problem solving. 00:16:39.350 --> 00:16:42.690 It's solving a challenge. 00:16:42.690 --> 00:16:44.240 You have to ship. 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:45.930 In other words, there comes a time 00:16:45.930 --> 00:16:48.870 when you have to get something out of the door. 00:16:48.870 --> 00:16:51.180 You've got to be able to set a time frame 00:16:51.180 --> 00:16:55.980 and move out your technology within a plausible time period 00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:58.230 to actually get into a market. 00:16:58.230 --> 00:17:01.670 Xerox PARC has a lot of trouble with this rule. 00:17:01.670 --> 00:17:04.724 You know, as we'll talk about when we get to Xerox PARC. 00:17:04.724 --> 00:17:06.599 The group needs to have a continuous learning 00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:07.210 environment. 00:17:07.210 --> 00:17:08.760 So, in other words, they're all learning from each other, 00:17:08.760 --> 00:17:11.218 and they need to have a setting by which they can bring out 00:17:11.218 --> 00:17:13.560 each other's skill sets and teach each other 00:17:13.560 --> 00:17:15.040 on a continuous kind of basis. 00:17:15.040 --> 00:17:20.940 And Oppenheimer provides some interesting insights on this. 00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:25.670 I think those are kind of key rules. 00:17:25.670 --> 00:17:30.380 And then, we're going to turn now to our colleagues 00:17:30.380 --> 00:17:33.230 to present their particular great group. 00:17:33.230 --> 00:17:37.460 So, we'll get the three kind of earlier great groups will 00:17:37.460 --> 00:17:39.470 each of you all will present on those 00:17:39.470 --> 00:17:41.700 and kind of get those out on the table. 00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:45.950 And you've got about 10 minutes or so to tell their story 00:17:45.950 --> 00:17:48.402 and explain their rule set and what 00:17:48.402 --> 00:17:50.360 additional rules they kind of came up with that 00:17:50.360 --> 00:17:52.430 are relevant here. 00:17:52.430 --> 00:17:54.560 Clear so far? 00:17:54.560 --> 00:17:56.030 All right. 00:17:56.030 --> 00:17:59.237 So, Martin, why don't we do Edison first? 00:17:59.237 --> 00:18:02.100 MARTIN: [INAUDIBLE] 00:18:02.100 --> 00:18:04.675 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: There's Edison. 00:18:04.675 --> 00:18:06.050 MARTIN: I think with Edison, it's 00:18:06.050 --> 00:18:07.630 important to kind of look at him as an individual 00:18:07.630 --> 00:18:09.730 first, and then also the organization and group 00:18:09.730 --> 00:18:11.500 he created after. 00:18:11.500 --> 00:18:13.940 So, Edison came from a relatively poor family. 00:18:13.940 --> 00:18:15.310 He kind of made his own ways. 00:18:15.310 --> 00:18:20.560 He's kind of like the original self-made American inventor. 00:18:20.560 --> 00:18:25.110 He started off self-taught because he was kind of deaf, 00:18:25.110 --> 00:18:27.110 so he couldn't really learn in a school setting. 00:18:27.110 --> 00:18:29.448 So, his self-taught him math at home. 00:18:29.448 --> 00:18:31.240 And so, that also gives him an original way 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:32.500 of looking at problems. 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:35.830 He's not really used to following social construct 00:18:35.830 --> 00:18:36.890 as well. 00:18:36.890 --> 00:18:38.812 And then, he gets a job on the railroad 00:18:38.812 --> 00:18:40.270 where as he's going on the railroad 00:18:40.270 --> 00:18:41.340 he sees a lot of different things. 00:18:41.340 --> 00:18:42.882 So, he's somebody who kind of becomes 00:18:42.882 --> 00:18:45.580 street smart as time evolves. 00:18:45.580 --> 00:18:48.430 And he is inventing things and learning 00:18:48.430 --> 00:18:49.600 while he's on the railroad. 00:18:49.600 --> 00:18:53.170 So, there's a funny story about him having his own little mini 00:18:53.170 --> 00:18:57.062 lab on a railroad which, you know, it's pretty funny. 00:18:57.062 --> 00:18:59.020 And so people wouldn't steal certain chemicals, 00:18:59.020 --> 00:19:01.680 he would like list them as poison. 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.790 And then, so that's kind of like his development 00:19:03.790 --> 00:19:04.720 into adolescence. 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.400 And as he grows up and kind of becomes an adult, 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:09.370 he gets relatively lucky. 00:19:09.370 --> 00:19:11.860 But he has all these hours of experience of inventing, 00:19:11.860 --> 00:19:14.035 and he invents this thing called the-- 00:19:14.035 --> 00:19:15.570 let me get the name here-- 00:19:15.570 --> 00:19:16.945 it's like the quadruple telegraph 00:19:16.945 --> 00:19:19.330 which what he sells for what would 00:19:19.330 --> 00:19:21.850 be the equivalent of $200,000 today. 00:19:21.850 --> 00:19:26.710 And that's what he uses as the initial money 00:19:26.710 --> 00:19:29.740 investment to make his lab at Menlo Park, which 00:19:29.740 --> 00:19:32.920 is considered, I think, one of the first great American 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:34.300 research labs. 00:19:34.300 --> 00:19:35.800 So, for him, it's pretty interesting 00:19:35.800 --> 00:19:38.410 because he's relatively street smart understands, 00:19:38.410 --> 00:19:39.940 the technology, understands what he 00:19:39.940 --> 00:19:41.898 doesn't know about the science, and understands 00:19:41.898 --> 00:19:42.880 the individuals. 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:46.242 So, as he comes in, he is kind of a strong leader. 00:19:46.242 --> 00:19:48.700 But what he does that's unique is he finds different people 00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:49.658 with different talents. 00:19:49.658 --> 00:19:52.780 Not just academic, but also people who can build things. 00:19:52.780 --> 00:19:54.415 People that have experience shipping. 00:19:54.415 --> 00:19:56.290 People have leadership abilities because he's 00:19:56.290 --> 00:19:58.720 kind of had this kind of-- 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:00.467 His 10,000 hours isn't just science, 00:20:00.467 --> 00:20:02.050 it's also been the ability to interact 00:20:02.050 --> 00:20:04.133 with a variety of people and see how they actually 00:20:04.133 --> 00:20:06.315 work in a real-life setting. 00:20:06.315 --> 00:20:08.190 So I think what would be interesting with him 00:20:08.190 --> 00:20:09.450 was to go through the Bennis. 00:20:09.450 --> 00:20:11.093 Kind of some of the characteristics 00:20:11.093 --> 00:20:12.760 of strong groups and kind of relate them 00:20:12.760 --> 00:20:16.396 to how he did it at Menlo Park. 00:20:16.396 --> 00:20:20.740 Let me see if I can find this. 00:20:20.740 --> 00:20:21.430 OK. 00:20:21.430 --> 00:20:23.710 So, need certain conditions. 00:20:23.710 --> 00:20:24.760 Focus. 00:20:24.760 --> 00:20:27.760 So, Menlo Park was really a ranch 00:20:27.760 --> 00:20:30.700 that he originally bought with his house in the back. 00:20:30.700 --> 00:20:33.370 So, being the leader, he kind of took it upon himself 00:20:33.370 --> 00:20:35.980 to place it near his home. 00:20:35.980 --> 00:20:38.895 But, he actually rarely went into his house. 00:20:38.895 --> 00:20:41.020 So, his wife lived in the back, and he would always 00:20:41.020 --> 00:20:44.860 be in the shop of Menlo Park always working with the people 00:20:44.860 --> 00:20:45.430 there. 00:20:45.430 --> 00:20:47.230 To the point that one time, he walked into his house 00:20:47.230 --> 00:20:49.250 and his wife hadn't seen him in about a week. 00:20:49.250 --> 00:20:52.180 So, she thought it was an intruder. 00:20:52.180 --> 00:20:53.702 So that kind of focus. 00:20:53.702 --> 00:20:54.410 Just to give it-- 00:20:54.410 --> 00:20:54.490 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: She almost shot him. 00:20:54.490 --> 00:20:54.990 Right? 00:20:55.317 --> 00:20:55.375 MARTIN: Yeah. 00:20:55.375 --> 00:20:55.920 Yeah. 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.467 Yeah, I mean, I don't want to imply, but yeah. 00:21:00.467 --> 00:21:01.300 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:21:01.300 --> 00:21:03.985 MARTIN: Light bulb moment. 00:21:03.985 --> 00:21:05.110 Have everyone in one place. 00:21:05.110 --> 00:21:06.970 As I mentioned, they're there in Menlo Park. 00:21:06.970 --> 00:21:09.670 And he has these great individuals. 00:21:09.670 --> 00:21:10.630 Isolate them. 00:21:10.630 --> 00:21:12.820 They are kind of isolated in their own skill set, 00:21:12.820 --> 00:21:14.320 but they can always collaborate. 00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:16.060 It is a flat model. 00:21:16.060 --> 00:21:18.970 There's only really two floors I think in Menlo Park. 00:21:18.970 --> 00:21:21.890 And then, he did choose to expand slightly later, 00:21:21.890 --> 00:21:24.460 but it wasn't highly isolated. 00:21:24.460 --> 00:21:25.690 No distractions. 00:21:25.690 --> 00:21:29.300 They were away from what I would say like other people. 00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:31.240 So it was an island. 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:33.310 Atmosphere stress, they did have stress 00:21:33.310 --> 00:21:35.170 because they did have deadlines. 00:21:35.170 --> 00:21:37.027 And they're also very prolific. 00:21:37.027 --> 00:21:38.110 I forget how many patents. 00:21:38.110 --> 00:21:39.430 You might know the number. 00:21:39.430 --> 00:21:43.450 I know Edison has around 1000 patents by time of his death. 00:21:43.450 --> 00:21:46.198 I think-- I don't want to give a wrong number because it's 00:21:46.198 --> 00:21:47.740 hard to find, but I know that they're 00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:50.990 very prolific in terms of assuming a patent like a week. 00:21:50.990 --> 00:21:53.320 Something like that. 00:21:53.320 --> 00:21:55.990 Because the talent, but also like I mentioned, 00:21:55.990 --> 00:21:57.870 Edison was street smart, so they knew 00:21:57.870 --> 00:22:00.520 but things are kind of ready to invent and put out there right 00:22:00.520 --> 00:22:01.450 away. 00:22:01.450 --> 00:22:03.130 So, most of the patents were all utility 00:22:03.130 --> 00:22:10.288 based in terms of mechanical, electrical, magnetism. 00:22:10.288 --> 00:22:11.080 And a lot of them-- 00:22:11.080 --> 00:22:13.580 I think there's only 14 patents for Menlo Park for something 00:22:13.580 --> 00:22:14.840 that was design related. 00:22:14.840 --> 00:22:17.570 So, it's very much focusing on what they were good at, 00:22:17.570 --> 00:22:21.980 which was kind of this applied science area. 00:22:21.980 --> 00:22:24.620 Island with bridge to mainland. 00:22:24.620 --> 00:22:26.330 They were the island. 00:22:26.330 --> 00:22:28.630 The ability to sell, Edison already 00:22:28.630 --> 00:22:30.703 knew from past inventions, so that 00:22:30.703 --> 00:22:31.870 wasn't as much of a problem. 00:22:31.870 --> 00:22:33.730 But it does fit that framework roughly. 00:22:33.730 --> 00:22:34.870 I would say. 00:22:34.870 --> 00:22:36.070 Winning underdogs. 00:22:36.070 --> 00:22:37.340 They did have competitors. 00:22:37.340 --> 00:22:38.590 They're not as famous as, you know, apples 00:22:38.590 --> 00:22:39.882 competitors or other companies. 00:22:39.882 --> 00:22:42.350 But they did know that at this time period, 00:22:42.350 --> 00:22:45.350 a lot of different people were making inventions 00:22:45.350 --> 00:22:47.692 to run electricity, and it was a market that there 00:22:47.692 --> 00:22:49.150 was a lot of competitors coming in, 00:22:49.150 --> 00:22:51.850 and you really had to fight to win. 00:22:51.850 --> 00:22:54.610 Even though they were utilities, the dynamics of the markets 00:22:54.610 --> 00:22:56.890 weren't as they are now. 00:22:56.890 --> 00:22:58.390 Have an enemy. 00:22:58.390 --> 00:23:01.900 That goes back to their opponents optimism. 00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:04.180 And not really realistic. 00:23:04.180 --> 00:23:06.277 They would just try things to try things, 00:23:06.277 --> 00:23:07.360 to see if they would work. 00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:09.568 And sometimes, they would work or would not work out. 00:23:09.568 --> 00:23:11.450 Right person for the right job. 00:23:11.450 --> 00:23:12.580 Give them what they need. 00:23:12.580 --> 00:23:14.190 They had a ton of resources. 00:23:14.190 --> 00:23:16.770 Let me bring up a example. 00:23:16.770 --> 00:23:19.120 A newspaper article printed in 1887 00:23:19.120 --> 00:23:20.710 reveals the seriousness of his claim 00:23:20.710 --> 00:23:23.710 saying the lab contain 8,000 kinds of chemicals, 00:23:23.710 --> 00:23:26.320 every kind of screw made, every size of needle 00:23:26.320 --> 00:23:29.770 every kind of quarter wired, hair of humans, horses, hogs, 00:23:29.770 --> 00:23:32.060 cows, rabbits, goats, minxes, camels, 00:23:32.060 --> 00:23:33.790 so silk in every texture, cocoons, 00:23:33.790 --> 00:23:36.580 various kinds of hooves, shark's teeth, deer's horns, 00:23:36.580 --> 00:23:39.760 tortoise shells, cork resin, varnish and oil, 00:23:39.760 --> 00:23:44.710 ostrich feathers, peacock tails, jet, amber, rubber, all auras, 00:23:44.710 --> 00:23:47.270 and the list goes on. 00:23:47.270 --> 00:23:49.930 So I mean that-- 00:23:49.930 --> 00:23:50.730 AUDIENCE: Why? 00:23:50.730 --> 00:23:52.520 AUDIENCE: He was a hoarder. 00:23:52.520 --> 00:23:53.850 [LAUGHTER] 00:23:53.850 --> 00:23:54.785 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 00:23:54.785 --> 00:23:56.410 MARTIN: Yeah, well, at the time there's 00:23:56.410 --> 00:23:57.340 different theories of science. 00:23:57.340 --> 00:23:57.610 Right. 00:23:57.610 --> 00:23:59.110 So, they weren't as refined, so they 00:23:59.110 --> 00:24:00.340 would try different things. 00:24:00.340 --> 00:24:03.340 And also, he probably left room for things 00:24:03.340 --> 00:24:06.295 that weren't mainstream science at the time 00:24:06.295 --> 00:24:08.170 to try different theories because if you have 00:24:08.170 --> 00:24:09.910 an expert that says, oh, I know how to do this and this, 00:24:09.910 --> 00:24:12.270 but it's not explained by the current theory of science, 00:24:12.270 --> 00:24:13.937 he would still give them a shot usually. 00:24:13.937 --> 00:24:15.604 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So, these presumably 00:24:15.604 --> 00:24:17.400 are all for filaments to get across the two 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.080 electrical poles. 00:24:19.080 --> 00:24:21.340 He's got to find the right filament that's-- 00:24:21.340 --> 00:24:22.360 MARTIN: And I think what the right problem 00:24:22.360 --> 00:24:23.060 at the right time. 00:24:23.060 --> 00:24:24.518 Like Edison wasn't the first person 00:24:24.518 --> 00:24:25.810 to create the light bulb. 00:24:25.810 --> 00:24:28.150 He perfected the design so it can last longer than, 00:24:28.150 --> 00:24:30.850 I forget if it was five seconds or five minutes, 00:24:30.850 --> 00:24:33.393 so it could last for extended periods of time. 00:24:33.393 --> 00:24:35.560 So, that's another gamble, finding the right problem 00:24:35.560 --> 00:24:36.770 at the right time. 00:24:36.770 --> 00:24:38.740 And it's something that we see in tech a lot. 00:24:38.740 --> 00:24:42.760 Like the I think the Newton from Apple 00:24:42.760 --> 00:24:45.420 was like an original was pretty much the iPad, 00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:46.960 but it just was the wrong time. 00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:49.270 Also, I think Oracle came out with something 00:24:49.270 --> 00:24:52.930 that was like the book like in the late 90s, 00:24:52.930 --> 00:24:54.950 and it didn't sell because it was too early. 00:24:54.950 --> 00:24:57.492 And not a lot of people on the internet yet, and there wasn't 00:24:57.492 --> 00:24:59.260 Wi-Fi. 00:24:59.260 --> 00:25:01.340 So, I think those kind of showcase 00:25:01.340 --> 00:25:04.000 some of the examples of how Menlo Park was run. 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.970 It was definitely kind of like a hierarchy 00:25:06.970 --> 00:25:10.270 where Edison kind of made the decisions, 00:25:10.270 --> 00:25:11.950 but he would make more hard decisions, 00:25:11.950 --> 00:25:13.492 which is important as well because it 00:25:13.492 --> 00:25:14.800 gets rid of complexity. 00:25:14.800 --> 00:25:17.820 And allows people-- usually, if you make a quick decision, 00:25:17.820 --> 00:25:19.753 it's better group because you'll go that way, 00:25:19.753 --> 00:25:22.170 and if it doesn't work you just move on to the next thing, 00:25:22.170 --> 00:25:24.030 but people aren't debating about, oh, let's do this 00:25:24.030 --> 00:25:25.500 or that for a long period of time. 00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:27.167 So, there's also when you're there, just 00:25:27.167 --> 00:25:28.930 focusing on doing the work. 00:25:28.930 --> 00:25:32.010 So, those are some of the characteristics 00:25:32.010 --> 00:25:33.630 of this great group in Menlo Park. 00:25:34.267 --> 00:25:35.850 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: You know, maybe we 00:25:35.850 --> 00:25:38.402 ought to do Q&A now rather than kind of bunch these up. 00:25:38.402 --> 00:25:40.360 Let me just share a couple of thoughts with you 00:25:40.360 --> 00:25:43.120 from these photographs. 00:25:43.120 --> 00:25:45.720 That's the invention factory. 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:49.830 And then, back behind this is the house, the old farmhouse 00:25:49.830 --> 00:25:53.100 where Edison theoretically lived with his wife, 00:25:53.100 --> 00:25:56.130 although he's spending almost all his time here. 00:25:56.130 --> 00:25:57.190 And that's the team. 00:25:57.190 --> 00:25:57.690 Right. 00:25:57.690 --> 00:25:59.100 That's the group. 00:25:59.100 --> 00:26:01.650 And there's the group, right, on the first floor 00:26:01.650 --> 00:26:03.330 of this building. 00:26:03.330 --> 00:26:07.080 And it's an interesting amalgam of talents. 00:26:07.080 --> 00:26:10.900 So, there's some engineers and scientists in here, 00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:13.480 but there's tremendous artisans. 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:16.150 Since they have to invent the vacuum tube, 00:26:16.150 --> 00:26:19.290 in effect, they have a great glass blower. 00:26:19.290 --> 00:26:19.900 Right. 00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:23.740 So, it's a very interesting mix of we 00:26:23.740 --> 00:26:27.190 call them experimentalists and theoreticians are, 00:26:27.190 --> 00:26:28.750 you know, combined in this space. 00:26:28.750 --> 00:26:31.150 But a remarkable ability to work together, 00:26:31.150 --> 00:26:35.530 and Martin has well described some of the rules that 00:26:35.530 --> 00:26:36.970 apply to them. 00:26:36.970 --> 00:26:39.100 They're having a good time. 00:26:39.100 --> 00:26:45.630 So, they're often up ridiculous hours of day and night. 00:26:45.630 --> 00:26:51.280 And they have a, you know, they have an old stove. 00:26:51.280 --> 00:26:55.270 And after midnight, they gather around the stove. 00:26:55.270 --> 00:26:59.440 So, rap has not been invented, but they shout doggerel poetry 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:03.100 to each other that's humorous at the top of their lungs. 00:27:03.100 --> 00:27:06.710 And Mrs. Edison brings by cherry pies. 00:27:06.710 --> 00:27:07.480 All right. 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.290 So, they feast around the old pot-bellied stove 00:27:11.290 --> 00:27:13.885 eating pie and shouting doggerel poetry at each other. 00:27:13.885 --> 00:27:15.760 It gives you an idea of the kind of adventure 00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:17.410 that they were having together. 00:27:17.410 --> 00:27:22.460 And on the island bridge point that Martin made, 00:27:22.460 --> 00:27:27.590 a key set of relationships that Edison was able to form 00:27:27.590 --> 00:27:31.860 was that telegraphing in effect like quadruplexing 00:27:31.860 --> 00:27:32.820 by telegraph. 00:27:32.820 --> 00:27:36.510 The ability to send multiple messages over the same line. 00:27:36.510 --> 00:27:40.290 That really enables the stock ticker and a tremendous amount 00:27:40.290 --> 00:27:42.900 of exchange of financial information for stock 00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:44.190 exchanges. 00:27:44.190 --> 00:27:46.770 So, buying could occur at a distance. 00:27:46.770 --> 00:27:49.080 You could place orders from all over the country, which 00:27:49.080 --> 00:27:51.690 really is foundational for Wall Street. 00:27:51.690 --> 00:27:54.300 So, people like JP Morgan completely understood 00:27:54.300 --> 00:27:57.630 the power of this and have a relationship with Edison. 00:27:57.630 --> 00:28:01.110 So, the Edison crowd is all off in this rural farm 00:28:01.110 --> 00:28:05.910 on an island, but Edison has got a bridge back to JP Morgan. 00:28:05.910 --> 00:28:10.360 So, when they figure out the light bulb, and the system that 00:28:10.360 --> 00:28:14.190 goes with it, which I'll get to in a second, 00:28:14.190 --> 00:28:17.100 he's got a way to reach a decision maker who can actually 00:28:17.100 --> 00:28:18.910 stand up to technology. 00:28:18.910 --> 00:28:19.410 Right. 00:28:19.410 --> 00:28:20.760 And that's really crucial. 00:28:20.760 --> 00:28:23.850 So, that invention earlier that he came up with 00:28:23.850 --> 00:28:27.180 is really the enabler for this whole project. 00:28:27.180 --> 00:28:29.610 They have to ship because, as Martin says, 00:28:29.610 --> 00:28:32.130 they've got a limited amount of money, which they're burning 00:28:32.130 --> 00:28:36.090 through by purchasing every bizarre thing you can think of, 00:28:36.090 --> 00:28:40.130 as you just ran through the great list of. 00:28:40.130 --> 00:28:42.767 So, it's driven by the need to ship. 00:28:42.767 --> 00:28:44.600 They're going to have to get this thing done 00:28:44.600 --> 00:28:47.160 before their money runs out. 00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:51.080 So, they're working all hours with incredible intensity 00:28:51.080 --> 00:28:53.400 to try and do it. 00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:57.290 This is not just the invention of the light bulb. 00:28:57.290 --> 00:28:58.730 They have to invent-- 00:28:58.730 --> 00:29:01.910 a light bulb is worthless without an electrical system 00:29:01.910 --> 00:29:03.330 to go with it. 00:29:03.330 --> 00:29:05.810 So, one of the things that Edison and his crew 00:29:05.810 --> 00:29:08.420 figure out they essentially have to invent 00:29:08.420 --> 00:29:10.865 the entire public utility model. 00:29:10.865 --> 00:29:12.740 So, they got a light bulb, which is a useless 00:29:12.740 --> 00:29:16.400 product unless you have an electrical system go with it. 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:20.233 So, they have to think through power systems. 00:29:20.233 --> 00:29:21.650 They have to think through safety. 00:29:21.650 --> 00:29:23.750 They have to figure out generators. 00:29:23.750 --> 00:29:26.090 They have to figure out the organizational model 00:29:26.090 --> 00:29:29.132 for utilities in order to understand how this whole thing 00:29:29.132 --> 00:29:29.840 is going to work. 00:29:29.840 --> 00:29:33.200 So, they've got a dream product that's 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.110 going to displace, you know, gas lighting, which was incredibly 00:29:36.110 --> 00:29:42.080 dangerous, blew up all the time, with a much safer, inherently 00:29:42.080 --> 00:29:46.005 safer system, which provided much better quality light. 00:29:46.005 --> 00:29:47.630 So, they've got a dream product, but it 00:29:47.630 --> 00:29:51.170 doesn't work unless they do the entire innovation 00:29:51.170 --> 00:29:54.080 system for electricity along with it, which is really 00:29:54.080 --> 00:29:56.050 what their accomplishment is. 00:29:56.050 --> 00:29:56.575 Right. 00:29:56.575 --> 00:29:58.700 It's understanding and being able to put into place 00:29:58.700 --> 00:30:01.820 the whole system, and then using their bridge back 00:30:01.820 --> 00:30:04.820 to the financial world to get it financed. 00:30:04.820 --> 00:30:08.270 So, those are just a few points building on Martin's, you know, 00:30:08.270 --> 00:30:11.140 good summary, but let's do some questions on the Edison group. 00:30:14.074 --> 00:30:16.030 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 00:30:16.030 --> 00:30:19.310 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah, why don't you fire some out? 00:30:19.310 --> 00:30:21.607 OK. 00:30:21.607 --> 00:30:23.940 MARTIN: How effective would an Edison-style research lab 00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:25.330 be today? 00:30:25.330 --> 00:30:27.720 So, there's like a really good show called pure genius 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:30.290 right now where it's a billionaire who 00:30:30.290 --> 00:30:32.670 like makes a hospital where he kind of does 00:30:32.670 --> 00:30:33.830 something like this. 00:30:33.830 --> 00:30:36.247 But I just wonder if anybody had any interesting thoughts. 00:30:40.842 --> 00:30:42.300 AUDIENCE: I feel like it definitely 00:30:42.300 --> 00:30:43.950 depends on the application. 00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:46.110 Like, what they're interested in working on. 00:30:46.110 --> 00:30:47.880 Because I feel like this translates 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:51.610 well when the capital expenses are lower, 00:30:51.610 --> 00:30:53.940 but if you're trying to do research 00:30:53.940 --> 00:30:58.590 on energy or large infrastructure stuff, 00:30:58.590 --> 00:31:00.750 I feel like it would be hard for a single person 00:31:00.750 --> 00:31:01.790 to finance that today. 00:31:01.790 --> 00:31:03.320 Like, even this is pretty impressive 00:31:03.320 --> 00:31:08.220 that you could build such a complex company from a garage 00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:09.660 basically. 00:31:09.660 --> 00:31:11.640 But, I mean we see like Apple essentially 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:14.080 started a similar process. 00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:17.920 So, that's something that kind of can start small and grow. 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:20.447 I think it could still work today. 00:31:20.447 --> 00:31:22.530 AUDIENCE: I don't really see very many differences 00:31:22.530 --> 00:31:24.570 between this and Facebook. 00:31:24.570 --> 00:31:28.140 It seems very similar very-- 00:31:28.140 --> 00:31:31.380 well, but again it follows that model of the quote 00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:33.940 unquote great group because it's everyone's focused, 00:31:33.940 --> 00:31:35.070 you've got a ton of people that are only 00:31:35.070 --> 00:31:36.060 working on the project. 00:31:36.060 --> 00:31:37.727 They've got all the resources they need. 00:31:37.727 --> 00:31:41.920 And they just like to work, and they have a great time. 00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:43.736 MARTIN: So, say like somebody is trying 00:31:43.736 --> 00:31:45.910 to do this for like fusion, like instead of the Manhattan 00:31:45.910 --> 00:31:47.368 Project, it's the Manhattan Project 00:31:47.368 --> 00:31:49.660 2.0 where they're trying to figure out a fusion energy 00:31:49.660 --> 00:31:50.230 device. 00:31:50.230 --> 00:31:52.660 Do you think a small group of talented people 00:31:52.660 --> 00:31:53.720 will be able to do it? 00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:55.887 MAX: I think it'd be awesome, and I'd love to do it. 00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:02.170 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: You know, Max, I think you're right. 00:32:02.170 --> 00:32:05.080 This is the iconic picture. 00:32:05.080 --> 00:32:06.560 That's the group. 00:32:06.560 --> 00:32:08.950 And it's all in a room, and they're all 00:32:08.950 --> 00:32:10.780 in rich communication with each other. 00:32:10.780 --> 00:32:14.960 I think that picture gets carried 00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:16.518 through into most of the great groups 00:32:16.518 --> 00:32:17.810 that we're going to talk about. 00:32:17.810 --> 00:32:19.256 MARTIN: And then another question 00:32:19.256 --> 00:32:22.562 I had based on this group was, do you think universities 00:32:22.562 --> 00:32:24.520 should focus on getting a variety of skill sets 00:32:24.520 --> 00:32:26.140 to interact with the researchers? 00:32:26.140 --> 00:32:28.858 Because usually it's academics, or they're 00:32:28.858 --> 00:32:30.400 used to doing research, but they only 00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:31.960 see a problem a certain way. 00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:34.000 Versus somebody who would be more street smart 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:36.370 or has a more technical ability to just build things, 00:32:36.370 --> 00:32:39.778 they would-- it might lead to richer solutions. 00:32:39.778 --> 00:32:41.650 MAX: So what's the question? 00:32:41.650 --> 00:32:43.150 MARTIN: So should universities focus 00:32:43.150 --> 00:32:45.820 on getting people that aren't from universities 00:32:45.820 --> 00:32:48.070 that are talented in science? 00:32:48.070 --> 00:32:49.540 So it could be electricians. 00:32:49.540 --> 00:32:52.032 It can be material scientists. 00:32:52.032 --> 00:32:52.990 MAX: Oh, so [INAUDIBLE] 00:32:52.990 --> 00:32:54.510 MARTIN: People who do things, rather than just people who 00:32:54.510 --> 00:32:55.470 have gone to college. 00:32:55.470 --> 00:32:57.220 AUDIENCE: To teach, is that what you mean? 00:32:57.220 --> 00:32:57.730 MARTIN: No, not to teach. 00:32:57.730 --> 00:32:59.660 To collaborate in a research setting. 00:32:59.660 --> 00:33:01.217 AUDIENCE: OK, OK. 00:33:01.217 --> 00:33:03.800 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I think it's really an important question, 00:33:03.800 --> 00:33:07.310 because we've begun to talk about the increasing economic 00:33:07.310 --> 00:33:11.270 role of universities, through the Bayh-Dole Act, for example, 00:33:11.270 --> 00:33:15.200 and the fact that universities now control patents on the-- 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.390 and the researchers control the patents 00:33:17.390 --> 00:33:20.480 on their federally-funded research. 00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.910 And the pressure's on universities 00:33:22.910 --> 00:33:24.800 to play more and more of an economic role. 00:33:24.800 --> 00:33:28.650 As the old historic industrial labs come down, 00:33:28.650 --> 00:33:30.065 the university role grows. 00:33:34.340 --> 00:33:38.390 If this is the iconic picture, are there 00:33:38.390 --> 00:33:41.420 settings in universities that look like this, 00:33:41.420 --> 00:33:45.620 or is it only two or three people in the room? 00:33:45.620 --> 00:33:50.160 I think that's a really intriguing question. 00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:52.472 Martin, what do you think? 00:33:52.472 --> 00:33:53.930 MARTIN: I think you should probably 00:33:53.930 --> 00:33:57.280 have people, just because a lot of things, in theory-- 00:33:57.280 --> 00:34:00.110 well, and another is, if you think about the world 00:34:00.110 --> 00:34:02.290 in terms of theories that we haven't discovered yet 00:34:02.290 --> 00:34:04.670 or things we haven't discovered and our theories 00:34:04.670 --> 00:34:06.140 aren't perfect. 00:34:06.140 --> 00:34:08.960 The way I would see it is somebody who has-- 00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:11.020 say somebody who's built an electrical grid 00:34:11.020 --> 00:34:12.812 and played around with different materials, 00:34:12.812 --> 00:34:14.360 they have 10,000 hours in things that 00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:16.277 might not have a theory for it yet-- they just 00:34:16.277 --> 00:34:18.350 know it happens. 00:34:18.350 --> 00:34:20.385 So they might be able to say, well, you think, 00:34:20.385 --> 00:34:22.010 theoretically, this is going to happen. 00:34:22.010 --> 00:34:23.090 This is what you're certain of. 00:34:23.090 --> 00:34:24.840 But based on some of the stuff I've seen-- 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:26.360 I've seen this. 00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:27.800 Maybe we should just try it out. 00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:30.258 And I think that might be a really interesting proposition. 00:34:37.427 --> 00:34:39.219 AUDIENCE: I wonder if it makes a difference 00:34:39.219 --> 00:34:45.730 though whether you're inventing a scientific advancement, 00:34:45.730 --> 00:34:49.269 or if it's just a product with maybe no new technology, 00:34:49.269 --> 00:34:53.270 but putting things together that consumers want. 00:34:53.270 --> 00:34:57.100 So I think with Facebook, I consider it more like a product 00:34:57.100 --> 00:35:00.940 not necessarily invented something new. 00:35:00.940 --> 00:35:05.830 Whereas with Edison, they said he had an intuitive 00:35:05.830 --> 00:35:09.010 understanding of Ohm's law and putting together 00:35:09.010 --> 00:35:11.750 the light bulb. 00:35:11.750 --> 00:35:13.720 But I feel like now it's probably 00:35:13.720 --> 00:35:16.720 even more of a challenge to make scientific advancements just 00:35:16.720 --> 00:35:19.750 from tinkering around, just because a lot has already 00:35:19.750 --> 00:35:21.080 been done. 00:35:21.080 --> 00:35:21.622 MARTIN: Yeah. 00:35:21.622 --> 00:35:22.750 But I would say there's also an opportunity, 00:35:22.750 --> 00:35:24.340 because if you look at-- 00:35:24.340 --> 00:35:29.080 there's waves of technology, like it's STS theme or certain 00:35:29.080 --> 00:35:32.390 ways of doing things come into fashion, and then they don't. 00:35:32.390 --> 00:35:34.660 So a lot of the great scientists of the 1800s 00:35:34.660 --> 00:35:36.728 built things, and would just build things and not 00:35:36.728 --> 00:35:38.770 really try to come up with a mathematical theory. 00:35:38.770 --> 00:35:41.230 Versus today, you come up with a mathematical theory, 00:35:41.230 --> 00:35:42.490 and then go and try it. 00:35:42.490 --> 00:35:44.830 So there's less people just trying random things. 00:35:44.830 --> 00:35:46.000 So there might be a huge opportunity 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.583 there because, with all the new insights and all the new data, 00:35:48.583 --> 00:35:50.260 you could try interesting things. 00:35:54.123 --> 00:35:56.040 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: All right, so why don't we 00:35:56.040 --> 00:35:59.700 leave Edison and shift over to Beth, 00:35:59.700 --> 00:36:03.565 who is going to do Oppenheimer? 00:36:03.565 --> 00:36:06.460 BETH: OK, so again before I go into the Manhattan Project 00:36:06.460 --> 00:36:09.040 specifically, I wanted to talk a little bit about Robert 00:36:09.040 --> 00:36:10.850 Oppenheimer a person. 00:36:10.850 --> 00:36:13.360 He had a pretty fascinating life-- 00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:17.020 a little bit tragic, but he really contributed a lot. 00:36:17.020 --> 00:36:20.080 So he went to Harvard and finished his chemistry degree 00:36:20.080 --> 00:36:23.680 in three years, and then started on a PhD in physics 00:36:23.680 --> 00:36:26.125 at Cambridge under JJ Thompson, who maybe 00:36:26.125 --> 00:36:28.260 is someone you've heard of. 00:36:28.260 --> 00:36:30.393 But completed his painting in Germany, 00:36:30.393 --> 00:36:32.560 where he had the opportunity to meet a lot of really 00:36:32.560 --> 00:36:34.510 famous scientists of the day-- 00:36:34.510 --> 00:36:38.470 Bohr, Heisenberg, [INAUDIBLE],, et cetera. 00:36:38.470 --> 00:36:41.080 After that, he went to work at Berkeley as a professor. 00:36:41.080 --> 00:36:43.140 So he was really building his network 00:36:43.140 --> 00:36:45.970 and knew really all the preeminent physicists 00:36:45.970 --> 00:36:50.050 of his day worked there [INAUDIBLE] 00:36:50.050 --> 00:36:55.660 Something that will continue to haunt him and affect 00:36:55.660 --> 00:36:59.560 how he works is that he did have multiple affiliations left 00:36:59.560 --> 00:37:01.630 organizations while he was-- 00:37:01.630 --> 00:37:03.970 especially while he was younger. 00:37:03.970 --> 00:37:07.707 So as the Red Scare comes about in the '50s, 00:37:07.707 --> 00:37:09.790 and even as he's working on the Manhattan Project, 00:37:09.790 --> 00:37:12.820 there are a lot of times that these affiliations come 00:37:12.820 --> 00:37:16.210 into question, and people doubt his loyalties. 00:37:16.210 --> 00:37:17.860 So that's something that-- 00:37:17.860 --> 00:37:20.200 it's just interesting to note. 00:37:20.200 --> 00:37:22.000 And obviously, he was selected to lead 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.813 the development of the atomic bombs at Los Alamos. 00:37:25.813 --> 00:37:27.730 I do just want to talk a little bit about what 00:37:27.730 --> 00:37:29.410 happened to him after the war, before we 00:37:29.410 --> 00:37:33.880 spent the majority of the time talking about his war efforts. 00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:38.020 So in 1947, after the war, he started 00:37:38.020 --> 00:37:42.240 working in Princeton at the Institute for Advanced Studies. 00:37:42.240 --> 00:37:44.320 So that's where Einstein was, as well. 00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:49.030 So he was working with a bunch of really smart people. 00:37:49.030 --> 00:37:52.630 But then in 1949, he's called to the House Un-American 00:37:52.630 --> 00:37:54.150 Activities Committee. 00:37:54.150 --> 00:37:58.030 And in 1953, his security clearance was revoked. 00:37:58.030 --> 00:38:00.100 So a lot of scientists did come speak out 00:38:00.100 --> 00:38:03.220 on his behalf, including Vannevar Bush, 00:38:03.220 --> 00:38:05.890 Edward Teller, who will make an appearance later 00:38:05.890 --> 00:38:07.870 in my discussion-- 00:38:07.870 --> 00:38:11.590 said some comments that weren't expressly negative, 00:38:11.590 --> 00:38:15.347 but were very much did not hold Oppenheimer's cause at all. 00:38:15.347 --> 00:38:17.430 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: It really led to his downfall. 00:38:17.430 --> 00:38:18.910 BETH: Yeah. 00:38:18.910 --> 00:38:21.670 They were kind of wishy-washy in what he actually said, 00:38:21.670 --> 00:38:23.180 but it was used against him a lot, 00:38:23.180 --> 00:38:25.450 and eventually it really contributed to the fact 00:38:25.450 --> 00:38:28.210 that he was no longer allowed to have a security clearance 00:38:28.210 --> 00:38:33.130 and really was pushed out of the political field of science. 00:38:33.130 --> 00:38:36.100 So as a result of that, he withdrew 00:38:36.100 --> 00:38:38.335 from political activity-- 00:38:38.335 --> 00:38:39.710 kind of because he was forced to. 00:38:39.710 --> 00:38:42.120 So he moved to the US Virgin Islands. 00:38:42.120 --> 00:38:44.080 And he worked a little bit independently 00:38:44.080 --> 00:38:49.663 on the nuclear field, but lost a lot of his influence outside 00:38:49.663 --> 00:38:50.830 of the scientific community. 00:38:50.830 --> 00:38:52.288 So within the scientific community, 00:38:52.288 --> 00:38:55.360 I think a lot of people still held him in high regard, 00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:59.290 but his opinions and his work wasn't really listened to 00:38:59.290 --> 00:39:02.410 by people outside. 00:39:02.410 --> 00:39:06.790 Finally, in 1963, he got a political rehabilitation 00:39:06.790 --> 00:39:12.150 when JFK awarded him the Enrico Fermi Award. 00:39:12.150 --> 00:39:14.465 This obviously didn't leave him much time 00:39:14.465 --> 00:39:16.590 to contribute after that, because unfortunately, he 00:39:16.590 --> 00:39:21.720 was diagnosed with lung cancer and died a few years after. 00:39:21.720 --> 00:39:26.430 Yeah, he was a bit of a chain smoker, unforunately. 00:39:26.430 --> 00:39:29.460 But it's kind of sad to see this downfall of, 00:39:29.460 --> 00:39:33.330 as well discuss in the next slides, a great leader who 00:39:33.330 --> 00:39:36.520 stepped up to the job in a time of crisis. 00:39:36.520 --> 00:39:40.060 All right, so now for the main focus, the Manhattan Project. 00:39:40.060 --> 00:39:43.390 So the picture on the left is an aerial view the Los Alamos 00:39:43.390 --> 00:39:45.760 laboratory, and on the right and some 00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:47.880 famous names of people who worked there, 00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:51.910 including Bohr, Feynman, and Fermi. 00:39:51.910 --> 00:39:53.890 So the Manhattan Project's goal, as I think 00:39:53.890 --> 00:39:55.570 most people are aware of, is-- 00:39:55.570 --> 00:39:58.000 was to build the nuclear bomb, essentially 00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:59.230 before the Nazis did. 00:39:59.230 --> 00:40:02.830 That was the ultimate motivation. 00:40:02.830 --> 00:40:05.360 And it really is an example of a great group. 00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:06.822 As I'll go through the next slide, 00:40:06.822 --> 00:40:08.530 it really ticks off a bunch of the boxes, 00:40:08.530 --> 00:40:10.780 because in a very short amount of time, 00:40:10.780 --> 00:40:13.950 with pretty young group working really hard, 00:40:13.950 --> 00:40:15.910 they were able to achieve this. 00:40:15.910 --> 00:40:18.220 And obviously, the nuclear bomb comes 00:40:18.220 --> 00:40:20.860 laden with a lot of ethical and values questions, which 00:40:20.860 --> 00:40:23.170 I think would be interesting to spend 00:40:23.170 --> 00:40:26.150 most of this time talking on. 00:40:26.150 --> 00:40:30.340 Bennis mentions in his work that professor described 00:40:30.340 --> 00:40:34.000 that you do run into this potential challenge of, 00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:35.500 what if a great group comes together 00:40:35.500 --> 00:40:38.560 to do something that is not very great? 00:40:38.560 --> 00:40:40.810 And so from the perspective of Americans, 00:40:40.810 --> 00:40:44.100 we can view this achievement as purely great, 00:40:44.100 --> 00:40:47.770 but-- or at the time, it was perceived as great. 00:40:47.770 --> 00:40:50.920 Now, it's obviously murkier. 00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:54.730 But had this great group been a group of German scientists 00:40:54.730 --> 00:40:58.810 at the time, it would have been a much scarier position for us. 00:40:58.810 --> 00:41:01.900 So I'll come back to that. 00:41:01.900 --> 00:41:04.500 I just wanted to tick off a few of the elements 00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:06.990 of a great group, and talk about Oppenheimer's role 00:41:06.990 --> 00:41:08.870 specifically. 00:41:08.870 --> 00:41:12.630 First, Oppenheimer really was a charismatic leader. 00:41:12.630 --> 00:41:15.480 Before this, he hadn't really had much leadership experience 00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:20.040 outside of his lab itself-- so overseeing graduate students. 00:41:20.040 --> 00:41:22.980 And a lot of people questioned his choice as the leader 00:41:22.980 --> 00:41:24.050 in this project. 00:41:24.050 --> 00:41:26.550 They weren't sure he had the right temperament or experience 00:41:26.550 --> 00:41:27.820 to do it. 00:41:27.820 --> 00:41:31.680 And a lot of his colleagues and people who worked there did 00:41:31.680 --> 00:41:36.240 see a noticeable change in how he worked before versus how 00:41:36.240 --> 00:41:39.840 he worked at Los Alamos, that he really kind of stepped up 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:44.280 to the task and was able to be a very influential and effective 00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:46.830 leader in this position. 00:41:46.830 --> 00:41:49.550 Since he knew basically everyone in the physics field, 00:41:49.550 --> 00:41:52.920 he was able to attract some really great talent, 00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:54.930 and definitely wasn't concerned with finding 00:41:54.930 --> 00:41:58.110 people who might have more knowledge in one area 00:41:58.110 --> 00:42:00.120 than he did. 00:42:00.120 --> 00:42:02.760 He really emphasized the open access to information. 00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:04.940 So they would have meetings-- 00:42:04.940 --> 00:42:06.570 I forget if it was weekly or monthly-- 00:42:06.570 --> 00:42:09.570 I think weekly-- where people would share their research 00:42:09.570 --> 00:42:11.070 with each other so that everyone had 00:42:11.070 --> 00:42:13.950 an idea of what was going on. 00:42:13.950 --> 00:42:16.200 Some of the other hands-off approaches 00:42:16.200 --> 00:42:18.900 were the flexible working hours and the freedom 00:42:18.900 --> 00:42:21.040 to work on things you're passionate about. 00:42:21.040 --> 00:42:23.490 So Teller, the guy from the previous slide, 00:42:23.490 --> 00:42:25.470 really wanted to develop the H bomb, 00:42:25.470 --> 00:42:28.080 and was pretty distracted from his work that 00:42:28.080 --> 00:42:30.540 was really applicable to the work 00:42:30.540 --> 00:42:32.010 that they were doing at hand. 00:42:32.010 --> 00:42:35.285 But Oppenheimer realized that the way 00:42:35.285 --> 00:42:36.660 he was going to be most effective 00:42:36.660 --> 00:42:38.252 was to just let Teller go off and work 00:42:38.252 --> 00:42:39.210 on what he cared about. 00:42:39.210 --> 00:42:41.670 And so he allowed people some freedom 00:42:41.670 --> 00:42:44.460 in judging what they should be doing. 00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:47.280 With this example, there is a clear mission, 00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:51.750 and there is a clear adversary, so that was a very strong 00:42:51.750 --> 00:42:53.940 motivating factor. 00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:56.560 There was a sense of camaraderie between the scientists. 00:42:56.560 --> 00:42:58.590 It did help that they had a lot in common. 00:42:58.590 --> 00:43:04.380 It was mostly young men interested in science. 00:43:04.380 --> 00:43:08.580 I think the average age was 25, so it was just a-- 00:43:08.580 --> 00:43:11.790 kind of the same thing of hanging out around the stove. 00:43:11.790 --> 00:43:14.580 They all lived and were pretty isolated in Los Alamos 00:43:14.580 --> 00:43:16.380 without much interaction. 00:43:16.380 --> 00:43:18.420 MAX: That's something I thought that was odd. 00:43:18.420 --> 00:43:21.780 If they're all age 25, doesn't that mean that a lot of them 00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:23.350 don't even have their PhD yet? 00:43:23.350 --> 00:43:25.860 BETH: So I think, from my interpretation, 00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:29.820 people used to get their PhDs slightly faster and younger. 00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:33.480 So Oppenheimer had his at 23. 00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:34.200 So I don't know-- 00:43:34.200 --> 00:43:35.950 MAX: He graduated in three years though. 00:43:35.950 --> 00:43:36.450 BETH: Yeah. 00:43:36.450 --> 00:43:38.897 MARTIN: He went college early. 00:43:38.897 --> 00:43:41.230 AUDIENCE: Maybe a lot of them are graduate students too, 00:43:41.230 --> 00:43:42.980 because a lot of the people at the Rad Lab 00:43:42.980 --> 00:43:45.300 were graduate students who are brought in by the-- 00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:46.398 Lawrence and-- 00:43:46.398 --> 00:43:47.690 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: [INAUDIBLE] 00:43:47.690 --> 00:43:50.065 AUDIENCE: They brought their graduate students with them. 00:43:50.065 --> 00:43:50.900 20 or 21. 00:43:54.150 --> 00:43:56.200 BETH: Yeah, so young group of people 00:43:56.200 --> 00:43:58.270 who had a lot of energy and enthusiasm, 00:43:58.270 --> 00:44:00.700 and really didn't have much else that they could do, 00:44:00.700 --> 00:44:03.870 because they're in the middle of somewhat nowhere in New Mexico. 00:44:03.870 --> 00:44:05.620 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: They're on a mesa top. 00:44:05.620 --> 00:44:06.340 BETH: Yeah. 00:44:06.340 --> 00:44:07.080 AUDIENCE: Island. 00:44:07.080 --> 00:44:07.720 BETH: Yeah, very much so an island. 00:44:07.720 --> 00:44:09.595 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yes, the ultimate island. 00:44:09.595 --> 00:44:13.300 BETH: Both for security purposes and to keep them focused. 00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:17.580 I do think they had a bit of the underdog attitude, as well. 00:44:17.580 --> 00:44:19.330 Whether it was true or not, they perceived 00:44:19.330 --> 00:44:21.430 that they were behind the Germans in development 00:44:21.430 --> 00:44:23.560 of the bomb, and so they were very 00:44:23.560 --> 00:44:28.480 motivated to try to catch up and to become the top dog. 00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:32.380 It did have a pretty casual atmosphere. 00:44:32.380 --> 00:44:34.180 It wasn't very hierarchical. 00:44:34.180 --> 00:44:36.880 There was a little division as possible. 00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:39.160 I think the book mentioned that Oppenheimer wrote out 00:44:39.160 --> 00:44:41.540 his ideal sketch on a piece of paper, 00:44:41.540 --> 00:44:44.710 and someone asked how it should be organized. 00:44:44.710 --> 00:44:48.730 So it was pretty freeform. 00:44:48.730 --> 00:44:52.300 And lastly, he did a lot to maintain enthusiasm 00:44:52.300 --> 00:44:55.990 and to keep people excited about working there, 00:44:55.990 --> 00:44:58.480 both the scientists themselves and the families 00:44:58.480 --> 00:44:59.920 that they brought with them. 00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:02.790 So part of that was everyone had to take some days off, 00:45:02.790 --> 00:45:06.120 so that had some semblance of work life balance. 00:45:06.120 --> 00:45:07.540 There were a lot of social events. 00:45:07.540 --> 00:45:09.773 Oppenheimer hosted some parties. 00:45:09.773 --> 00:45:11.440 And I think something really interesting 00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:15.940 that he did was to help the women that were brought to Los 00:45:15.940 --> 00:45:18.100 Alamos, mostly as spouses-- 00:45:18.100 --> 00:45:20.710 a few scientists, but mostly spouses-- 00:45:20.710 --> 00:45:22.743 to get more engaging jobs than they 00:45:22.743 --> 00:45:24.160 might have been able to otherwise. 00:45:24.160 --> 00:45:28.930 So rather than having them stuck at home, isolated 00:45:28.930 --> 00:45:31.000 as housewives, he would bring in people 00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:33.910 who would do the house chores for them, so that they could 00:45:33.910 --> 00:45:38.980 get jobs as administrators, or more challenging work 00:45:38.980 --> 00:45:41.920 that would keep them happier to be there, as well. 00:45:45.970 --> 00:45:49.160 But this work obviously raised many ethical questions. 00:45:49.160 --> 00:45:51.930 And these are four scientists that I picked out 00:45:51.930 --> 00:45:53.410 who discussed some of these. 00:45:53.410 --> 00:45:56.800 So first is Niels Bohr. 00:45:56.800 --> 00:46:02.140 He escaped from Denmark and came over to the Allies 00:46:02.140 --> 00:46:04.750 during World War II. 00:46:04.750 --> 00:46:08.890 And he very much supported the idea of open access 00:46:08.890 --> 00:46:11.590 to information, not just between Britain and the US, 00:46:11.590 --> 00:46:14.260 but including the Soviet Union in there, as well. 00:46:14.260 --> 00:46:16.420 He was afraid that leaving the Soviet Union out 00:46:16.420 --> 00:46:19.750 of all of this work was going to lead to an arms race 00:46:19.750 --> 00:46:21.300 after World War II. 00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:24.070 He was probably correct. 00:46:24.070 --> 00:46:26.770 Another interesting person working on this 00:46:26.770 --> 00:46:28.300 is Joseph Rotblat. 00:46:28.300 --> 00:46:30.860 So he quit Los Alamos after the-- 00:46:30.860 --> 00:46:33.310 not after the war that should say-- 00:46:33.310 --> 00:46:35.770 after Germany was defeated, because he thought that there 00:46:35.770 --> 00:46:38.570 was no purpose to continue to study the bomb, 00:46:38.570 --> 00:46:41.310 if that was their goal was to have the bomb before Germany 00:46:41.310 --> 00:46:43.360 did, to protect themselves. 00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:45.790 He didn't think that developing the bomb further 00:46:45.790 --> 00:46:49.380 was necessary after Germany was defeated. 00:46:49.380 --> 00:46:51.130 And then both Wilson and Feynman, I think, 00:46:51.130 --> 00:46:54.680 are quoted again in that Bennis article. 00:46:54.680 --> 00:46:59.740 So when they do the first successful test at Trinity, 00:46:59.740 --> 00:47:01.120 everyone's out there celebrating. 00:47:01.120 --> 00:47:03.160 This is the culmination of all their work, 00:47:03.160 --> 00:47:05.440 so they're really excited about this. 00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:09.370 But Feynman sees Robert Wilson, and he's like desponded. 00:47:09.370 --> 00:47:11.020 It's a terrible thing that we made. 00:47:11.020 --> 00:47:12.730 And Feynman points out that they all 00:47:12.730 --> 00:47:15.370 got caught up in this excitement, this enthusiasm 00:47:15.370 --> 00:47:17.980 for achieving their goal, that they kind of lost sight 00:47:17.980 --> 00:47:20.890 of what their goal would do. 00:47:20.890 --> 00:47:24.250 And so that's, I think, a very important part of the story 00:47:24.250 --> 00:47:26.968 that makes it a little different from some of the other ones 00:47:26.968 --> 00:47:28.510 that we'll study today, is that there 00:47:28.510 --> 00:47:32.170 are a lot of potential downsides to the work 00:47:32.170 --> 00:47:35.835 that this great group did. 00:47:35.835 --> 00:47:37.210 I think it's pretty clear that it 00:47:37.210 --> 00:47:39.100 was great in its characteristics, 00:47:39.100 --> 00:47:41.410 but I think it'd be interesting to discuss 00:47:41.410 --> 00:47:43.390 what the repercussions of that could be. 00:47:46.570 --> 00:47:52.090 So one question before we go too much into the ethical debate 00:47:52.090 --> 00:47:54.450 about Oppenheimer himself-- 00:47:54.450 --> 00:47:55.870 so as I mentioned, a lot of people 00:47:55.870 --> 00:47:58.180 didn't have much faith that Oppenheimer 00:47:58.180 --> 00:47:59.680 would be an effective leader. 00:47:59.680 --> 00:48:02.590 And it didn't seem like there was a little bit of a learning 00:48:02.590 --> 00:48:05.140 curve for him to understand what was 00:48:05.140 --> 00:48:06.900 realistic in what could work. 00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:09.700 And so one question that came to my mind was, 00:48:09.700 --> 00:48:13.000 how long should a trial period be for a leader in a situation? 00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:17.020 How do you decide this person's not cutting it, 00:48:17.020 --> 00:48:20.140 we need to replace him, versus ruling out people 00:48:20.140 --> 00:48:22.900 just because they haven't adapted really quickly? 00:48:22.900 --> 00:48:24.570 So if you have any thoughts on that-- 00:48:24.570 --> 00:48:26.810 MAX: Well, I suppose it depends on the situation. 00:48:26.810 --> 00:48:29.710 But here, if you're in a war scenario 00:48:29.710 --> 00:48:31.120 where you have a couple of years, 00:48:31.120 --> 00:48:33.250 and that could be the difference-- and even 00:48:33.250 --> 00:48:37.210 a couple of months could be the difference between today 00:48:37.210 --> 00:48:39.601 and Man in the High Castle. 00:48:42.250 --> 00:48:44.500 For those who don't know, it's an alternate universe 00:48:44.500 --> 00:48:47.900 where Nazi Germany wins. 00:48:47.900 --> 00:48:53.320 So I guess in that case, I would have given him like two months 00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:57.940 to figure out can he change, is showing improvement? 00:48:57.940 --> 00:49:01.810 If he isn't ideally suited at the beginning, 00:49:01.810 --> 00:49:05.570 can he adapt to the situation? 00:49:05.570 --> 00:49:08.160 And even then even, if he can adapt, 00:49:08.160 --> 00:49:10.988 can adapt quickly enough-- 00:49:10.988 --> 00:49:13.280 AUDIENCE: Could I ask-- who would conduct a performance 00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:15.940 review? 00:49:15.940 --> 00:49:18.830 BETH: In this situation, he was kind of subject 00:49:18.830 --> 00:49:20.540 to the Army's approval, as well. 00:49:20.540 --> 00:49:23.180 He was working kind of paired up with General Groves, 00:49:23.180 --> 00:49:25.250 so I think that he would have had a lot of say, 00:49:25.250 --> 00:49:27.375 if he thought Oppenheimer was doing a terrible job. 00:49:27.375 --> 00:49:30.095 But as far as who his ultimate boss was-- 00:49:32.630 --> 00:49:34.490 MAX: [INAUDIBLE] I'd say some of his other-- 00:49:34.490 --> 00:49:36.860 his subordinates would also definitely 00:49:36.860 --> 00:49:38.450 have some weight because then-- 00:49:38.450 --> 00:49:40.850 they're all very accomplished scientists in their field, 00:49:40.850 --> 00:49:44.490 so their opinions certainly have meaning. 00:49:44.490 --> 00:49:46.307 So I think, if they worked with Groves, 00:49:46.307 --> 00:49:48.890 they could-- if they wanted to, they could get him pushed out. 00:49:51.850 --> 00:49:54.280 AUDIENCE: Also going off that point, I think, as a leader, 00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:57.220 it's really important to recognize when you might have 00:49:57.220 --> 00:49:59.170 some deficiencies, and really learn how 00:49:59.170 --> 00:50:02.500 to delegate to other people. 00:50:02.500 --> 00:50:04.840 In the beginning, I think the article mentioned 00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:09.190 he wasn't very good at budgeting things or managing 00:50:09.190 --> 00:50:11.310 the logistics of establishing the town. 00:50:11.310 --> 00:50:14.110 So maybe if he could recognize really early on, 00:50:14.110 --> 00:50:17.090 oh, I can't do this, I need to appoint someone else to do it, 00:50:17.090 --> 00:50:20.460 I think that's also an important part of being a good leader. 00:50:20.460 --> 00:50:23.110 And to be honest, it's something that 00:50:23.110 --> 00:50:26.740 probably should be established early on, especially in such 00:50:26.740 --> 00:50:30.080 a time-sensitive project. 00:50:30.080 --> 00:50:33.430 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: That's just a thought to contribute here 00:50:33.430 --> 00:50:36.850 on his leadership style. 00:50:36.850 --> 00:50:39.530 Martin brought us through Edison, and in some ways, 00:50:39.530 --> 00:50:43.780 Edison is a 19th century figure with a certain kind of-- 00:50:43.780 --> 00:50:46.360 who believes in his own seniority, 00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:48.080 his own kind of authority. 00:50:48.080 --> 00:50:50.800 And he's something of an authoritarian figure 00:50:50.800 --> 00:50:51.730 with that community. 00:50:51.730 --> 00:50:54.670 They do share things and they are all up late at night 00:50:54.670 --> 00:50:56.560 together, but there's no questioning 00:50:56.560 --> 00:50:58.310 about who the leader is. 00:50:58.310 --> 00:51:00.910 Oppenheimer's got a very different leadership style. 00:51:00.910 --> 00:51:03.640 And correct me, Beth, if you've got a different view on this. 00:51:03.640 --> 00:51:10.730 But there was a phrase in the book reading about him, 00:51:10.730 --> 00:51:13.470 which was, he was like a bee spreading pollen. 00:51:13.470 --> 00:51:17.260 In the words, he had the ability to go from group to group 00:51:17.260 --> 00:51:20.590 to group-- because this is organized with teams working 00:51:20.590 --> 00:51:24.270 on particular parts of the project-- 00:51:24.270 --> 00:51:26.380 help them think of their core ideas, 00:51:26.380 --> 00:51:28.510 and then share ideas other groups that 00:51:28.510 --> 00:51:30.222 would help influence them. 00:51:30.222 --> 00:51:32.430 And I think that turned out to be a really critical-- 00:51:32.430 --> 00:51:33.640 this is a large operation. 00:51:33.640 --> 00:51:36.120 This is not going to fit in one room. 00:51:36.120 --> 00:51:37.750 Now, he did, as you mentioned, Beth, 00:51:37.750 --> 00:51:39.820 pull them together into the auditorium 00:51:39.820 --> 00:51:43.530 weekly for really in-depth exchanges and presentations 00:51:43.530 --> 00:51:45.530 so that they all kind of knew what was going on, 00:51:45.530 --> 00:51:48.610 they were all in on what was happening. 00:51:48.610 --> 00:51:52.400 But he plays a critical role in moving from team to team, 00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:54.580 trading the ideas back and forth that 00:51:54.580 --> 00:51:57.040 will help move them along and help advance them. 00:51:57.040 --> 00:52:00.220 And in some ways, that's the critical function 00:52:00.220 --> 00:52:01.910 that I think he plays. 00:52:01.910 --> 00:52:03.540 Does that add up with your views? 00:52:03.540 --> 00:52:04.150 BETH: Yeah. 00:52:04.150 --> 00:52:06.490 I was thinking of one other point in the book 00:52:06.490 --> 00:52:08.200 where it said his talent was finding 00:52:08.200 --> 00:52:11.870 the talents of other people and using those effectively. 00:52:11.870 --> 00:52:12.370 So yeah. 00:52:12.370 --> 00:52:13.570 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right. 00:52:13.570 --> 00:52:16.780 So that's a different leadership model, 00:52:16.780 --> 00:52:19.210 but in this setting, an absolutely critical one, 00:52:19.210 --> 00:52:20.710 I think. 00:52:20.710 --> 00:52:23.830 Because all of these pieces have to work together, 00:52:23.830 --> 00:52:25.840 and unless they're all advancing, 00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:27.760 it's not going to happen. 00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:29.710 And he plays a really critical role 00:52:29.710 --> 00:52:35.210 in getting those pieces advancing together. 00:52:35.210 --> 00:52:37.570 BETH: [INAUDIBLE] 00:52:37.570 --> 00:52:39.370 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah, absolutely. 00:52:39.370 --> 00:52:41.860 BETH: So again, going back to what 00:52:41.860 --> 00:52:45.550 Bennis talked about with these great groups that 00:52:45.550 --> 00:52:51.040 may be towing a dangerous line. 00:52:51.040 --> 00:52:54.910 How could one stop the seemingly runaway tendency 00:52:54.910 --> 00:52:56.620 of great groups that they start crossing 00:52:56.620 --> 00:52:58.330 an ethical or moral line? 00:52:58.330 --> 00:53:01.750 It seems like they have so much momentum going. 00:53:01.750 --> 00:53:04.700 What responsibility do the scientists within 00:53:04.700 --> 00:53:06.790 have-- or anyone within it, not scientists-- 00:53:06.790 --> 00:53:09.190 to slow it down and rethink it? 00:53:09.190 --> 00:53:12.795 How would you go about doing that? 00:53:12.795 --> 00:53:15.220 AUDIENCE: Well, I almost think it's 00:53:15.220 --> 00:53:19.805 in the eye of the beholder, because this one is pretty-- 00:53:19.805 --> 00:53:22.180 well, even this is murky-- but it's pretty cut and dried. 00:53:22.180 --> 00:53:25.690 They made it a huge killing device. 00:53:25.690 --> 00:53:30.340 But I'm presenting on Craig Venter and the decoding 00:53:30.340 --> 00:53:32.680 of the human genome, and a lot of people 00:53:32.680 --> 00:53:37.850 might argue that that is an out-of-control topic, as well. 00:53:37.850 --> 00:53:40.040 So I think it's kind of your perspective 00:53:40.040 --> 00:53:41.890 that you're coming from. 00:53:44.380 --> 00:53:46.657 MARTIN: I think also, we-- 00:53:46.657 --> 00:53:48.490 especially in this presentation, you kind of 00:53:48.490 --> 00:53:50.020 glanced over Heisenberg. 00:53:50.020 --> 00:53:51.648 So it wasn't just, we're building a gun 00:53:51.648 --> 00:53:52.690 so we can shoot somebody. 00:53:52.690 --> 00:53:53.980 It's like, somebody else is building gun 00:53:53.980 --> 00:53:54.940 and they're about to shoot us, and we 00:53:54.940 --> 00:53:57.315 should be the-- we need to be the first ones to be ready. 00:53:57.315 --> 00:53:59.260 Because Heisenberg seemed way more prepared. 00:53:59.260 --> 00:54:00.700 They were getting reports. 00:54:00.700 --> 00:54:03.160 There's this great documentary called "Oppenheimer vs 00:54:03.160 --> 00:54:06.100 Heisenberg" by American Genius where they go over 00:54:06.100 --> 00:54:08.950 how they thought Heisenberg was much farther ahead, 00:54:08.950 --> 00:54:11.560 and sometimes they would fake reports to make it seem-- 00:54:11.560 --> 00:54:14.210 so for them, yeah, there were these ethical questions. 00:54:14.210 --> 00:54:16.210 And the interesting thing about this great group 00:54:16.210 --> 00:54:18.880 is that most the people that joined the group were very much 00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:20.920 pacifists or left. 00:54:20.920 --> 00:54:23.860 So they weren't people who wanted to build weapons. 00:54:23.860 --> 00:54:26.680 But at this time period, the stresses around 00:54:26.680 --> 00:54:29.530 them influence them to have to build this because they 00:54:29.530 --> 00:54:30.550 knew that, if they-- 00:54:30.550 --> 00:54:34.287 even though my beliefs are this, if I don't do this, 00:54:34.287 --> 00:54:36.120 it could affect people that I do care about. 00:54:36.120 --> 00:54:37.620 And it's just because of my beliefs, 00:54:37.620 --> 00:54:39.858 so maybe I should change my beliefs to do this. 00:54:39.858 --> 00:54:42.400 I think the ethical question was very much after they figured 00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:45.940 out Heisenberg wasn't-- 00:54:45.940 --> 00:54:48.580 his lab had already blown up and it wasn't working out. 00:54:48.580 --> 00:54:49.603 Why didn't they stop? 00:54:49.603 --> 00:54:51.770 And a lot of it is that they already had come into-- 00:54:51.770 --> 00:54:54.760 they had so much momentum that they wanted to be prepared. 00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:59.753 But also how are you defining a horrible weapon? 00:54:59.753 --> 00:55:01.420 It's a weapon that can take down cities, 00:55:01.420 --> 00:55:03.128 and how many times had it ultimately been 00:55:03.128 --> 00:55:04.870 used since the time period? 00:55:04.870 --> 00:55:07.720 And how many deaths have been created because of it compared 00:55:07.720 --> 00:55:10.060 to other things too? 00:55:10.060 --> 00:55:12.430 I think there's a huge focus on it 00:55:12.430 --> 00:55:14.730 because it's a weapon of high magnitude, 00:55:14.730 --> 00:55:16.283 so it's under a higher scrutiny. 00:55:16.283 --> 00:55:18.700 But also I'd want to look into the data of how many people 00:55:18.700 --> 00:55:20.450 have actually being killed by nuclear arms 00:55:20.450 --> 00:55:21.420 compared to other-- 00:55:21.420 --> 00:55:24.880 AUDIENCE: Or it can be a weapon or a source of energy. 00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:28.480 The human genome can be a source of biological weaponry 00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:30.777 or a huge source of knowledge for science. 00:55:30.777 --> 00:55:32.860 So you have these caveats with a lot of the things 00:55:32.860 --> 00:55:34.540 that the great groups have done. 00:55:34.540 --> 00:55:36.580 MAX: That's kind of the point of science. 00:55:36.580 --> 00:55:38.230 Science is morally neutral. 00:55:38.230 --> 00:55:40.270 You're just learning about the nature of atoms, 00:55:40.270 --> 00:55:44.440 the nature of nuclei, and what kind of chain reaction exists. 00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:46.690 That just depends on the people that actually have it, 00:55:46.690 --> 00:55:48.107 and who discovers it, and how they 00:55:48.107 --> 00:55:49.880 decide to fund it and use it. 00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:53.523 So that's going to happen with any technology that exists. 00:55:53.523 --> 00:55:54.940 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: But Max, we're 00:55:54.940 --> 00:56:00.340 moving here from science to a very clear, specific technology 00:56:00.340 --> 00:56:01.390 project. 00:56:01.390 --> 00:56:05.800 But I think, Martin, you make an important point. 00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:08.020 This physics community before World War II 00:56:08.020 --> 00:56:10.720 is a relatively small community, and the group that gets 00:56:10.720 --> 00:56:13.720 assembled here, they all know each other. 00:56:13.720 --> 00:56:16.930 They've all been in communication prior to the war. 00:56:16.930 --> 00:56:20.490 And they knew Heisenberg very well, 00:56:20.490 --> 00:56:24.120 and they knew how unbelievably talented he was. 00:56:24.120 --> 00:56:28.050 And they thought he had at least a couple of years head start. 00:56:28.050 --> 00:56:31.320 And I think they all realized that if Heisenberg 00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:33.610 was successful in doing this-- 00:56:33.610 --> 00:56:37.880 we talked about the Rad Lab as a war-winning technology-- 00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:39.420 radar. 00:56:39.420 --> 00:56:42.393 This is war-ending. 00:56:42.393 --> 00:56:44.060 If Germany developed this first, the war 00:56:44.060 --> 00:56:46.520 would be over like that. 00:56:46.520 --> 00:56:47.900 It would be over. 00:56:47.900 --> 00:56:50.780 And now is an option which I think the group certainly, 00:56:50.780 --> 00:56:55.160 as a whole, felt was completely unacceptable. 00:56:55.160 --> 00:56:59.390 So that motivates everything up until April. 00:56:59.390 --> 00:57:00.920 And then what's going to happen? 00:57:03.980 --> 00:57:06.320 So that's a critical moment, but it's not 00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:10.190 really until after the actual use of the weapon 00:57:10.190 --> 00:57:14.060 that I think this community begins to think hard about this 00:57:14.060 --> 00:57:16.170 and about the consequences. 00:57:16.170 --> 00:57:18.320 There are some exceptions, like Rothblat. 00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:22.880 But that's when Oppenheimer has to confront 00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:26.930 what the implications are and begin to think about how to-- 00:57:26.930 --> 00:57:30.150 because they've all been involved in development of it. 00:57:30.150 --> 00:57:31.800 The physics community comes together 00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:35.515 as a political body, in a way, and starts to try and push 00:57:35.515 --> 00:57:37.140 the government to think about how we're 00:57:37.140 --> 00:57:40.440 going to deal with these staggering technologies 00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:43.980 and their implications. 00:57:43.980 --> 00:57:45.360 Does that add up, Beth? 00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:46.240 BETH: Yeah. 00:57:46.240 --> 00:57:47.137 It does. 00:57:47.137 --> 00:57:48.720 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Do want to give us 00:57:48.720 --> 00:57:50.345 some closing thoughts about Oppenheimer 00:57:50.345 --> 00:57:52.055 and what's important about the group? 00:57:52.055 --> 00:57:54.180 BETH: Sure. 00:57:54.180 --> 00:57:57.650 So Oppenheimer's experience is definitely 00:57:57.650 --> 00:58:00.060 quintessential for when-- 00:58:00.060 --> 00:58:02.280 for how effective technology advancements 00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:04.230 can be under more pressures. 00:58:04.230 --> 00:58:06.180 So I think we discussed a few weeks ago, 00:58:06.180 --> 00:58:08.700 is it possible to replicate this sense of urgency 00:58:08.700 --> 00:58:13.590 and this progress under times of peace? 00:58:13.590 --> 00:58:17.760 And if we had a Los Alamos of fusion, 00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:20.730 would we be able to get it to work? 00:58:20.730 --> 00:58:22.140 Would we ever be able to even get 00:58:22.140 --> 00:58:24.840 funding to do that without some kind of wartime need? 00:58:24.840 --> 00:58:26.965 It's definitely something I've been thinking about. 00:58:26.965 --> 00:58:29.670 They had so much money, so many resources, and so much 00:58:29.670 --> 00:58:32.190 talent in a small area, working hard, 00:58:32.190 --> 00:58:33.900 and they were able to achieve something. 00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:36.900 But again, it was mostly motivated-- pretty much 00:58:36.900 --> 00:58:38.970 entirely motivated by the war. 00:58:38.970 --> 00:58:41.100 And I think we just keep coming back to 00:58:41.100 --> 00:58:43.440 how can we make these advancements when we 00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:44.990 don't have that same impetus? 00:58:47.540 --> 00:58:49.420 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right. 00:58:49.420 --> 00:58:50.520 Good point to close on. 00:58:50.520 --> 00:58:52.860 AUDIENCE: So today I'm going to present 00:58:52.860 --> 00:58:56.840 on the several groups that get involved 00:58:56.840 --> 00:59:02.490 in the process of inventing interactive computers. 00:59:02.490 --> 00:59:06.850 So in the very beginning, when the first computer 00:59:06.850 --> 00:59:12.020 was invented, it was so big, expensive, and only accessible 00:59:12.020 --> 00:59:16.700 to scientists and engineers that there's 00:59:16.700 --> 00:59:21.020 no one that ever imagined something like this before us 00:59:21.020 --> 00:59:22.790 will be so much-- 00:59:26.580 --> 00:59:30.290 no one imagined we would be so much relying on these devices. 00:59:30.290 --> 00:59:33.660 But then Vannevar Bush was the one-- 00:59:33.660 --> 00:59:36.230 had this mission that computer can 00:59:36.230 --> 00:59:42.230 be some kind of intimate supplement to memory, 00:59:42.230 --> 00:59:46.220 that he named as [INAUDIBLE] vision. 00:59:46.220 --> 00:59:51.640 And he presented it in front of all the scientists 00:59:51.640 --> 00:59:58.130 at the summit and he kind of inspired one of the scientists 00:59:58.130 --> 01:00:02.575 in Philippines named Douglas Engelbart. 01:00:02.575 --> 01:00:04.242 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yes, Doug Engelbart. 01:00:04.242 --> 01:00:04.465 AUDIENCE: Engelbart. 01:00:04.465 --> 01:00:05.548 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right. 01:00:05.548 --> 01:00:07.970 AUDIENCE: And they got funding from NASA, 01:00:07.970 --> 01:00:13.640 and they started to get hands on images 01:00:13.640 --> 01:00:18.350 on how to have this interactivity between computer 01:00:18.350 --> 01:00:19.790 and the users. 01:00:19.790 --> 01:00:25.520 Then the invention of Windows, and the mouse, and the screen 01:00:25.520 --> 01:00:32.780 was successful by 1968. 01:00:32.780 --> 01:00:37.755 Bob Taylor and Alan Kay had this group 01:00:37.755 --> 01:00:40.590 at Palo Alto Research Center. 01:00:40.590 --> 01:00:42.430 They were under the ax-- 01:00:46.585 --> 01:00:47.960 I don't know how to pronounce it. 01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:49.040 AUDIENCE: Xerox? 01:00:49.040 --> 01:00:50.630 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Xerox, yes. 01:00:50.630 --> 01:00:51.547 AUDIENCE: Xerox, yeah. 01:00:51.547 --> 01:00:57.110 Xerox a corporation with already having 01:00:57.110 --> 01:01:01.340 a lot of scientific investment. 01:01:01.340 --> 01:01:07.580 So PARC, P-A-R-C, was under Xerox, 01:01:07.580 --> 01:01:12.260 and today we're going to focus on their principles on [their 01:01:12.260 --> 01:01:14.270 recruitment of this great group. 01:01:16.910 --> 01:01:19.360 So Bob Taylor had-- 01:01:19.360 --> 01:01:26.480 was the real boss of PARC lab and the principal 01:01:26.480 --> 01:01:30.230 that he was is existing on is that there's 01:01:30.230 --> 01:01:33.860 no good scientists-- there's only great ones. 01:01:33.860 --> 01:01:41.720 So he had very strict selection of scientists and participants. 01:01:41.720 --> 01:01:46.100 The way that he built this team bonding-- 01:01:46.100 --> 01:01:49.820 team spirit is that, during the selection of scientists, 01:01:49.820 --> 01:01:51.900 he also requests participants-- 01:01:51.900 --> 01:01:56.660 the applicants to present in front of the whole staff, 01:01:56.660 --> 01:01:59.820 so people who are already part of this group 01:01:59.820 --> 01:02:01.640 will find oh, this is an interesting person 01:02:01.640 --> 01:02:04.520 and we would like to have him in our team. 01:02:04.520 --> 01:02:08.820 And so whoever get assigned in this team 01:02:08.820 --> 01:02:11.340 would feel this sense of recognition. 01:02:11.340 --> 01:02:14.780 And I think this is something that 01:02:14.780 --> 01:02:18.620 might be lacking in a lot of science groups 01:02:18.620 --> 01:02:22.370 today because there's always this fear of having 01:02:22.370 --> 01:02:24.590 new members coming in, and they're 01:02:24.590 --> 01:02:29.750 so talented that they will replace the previous members. 01:02:29.750 --> 01:02:32.990 And this kind of fear might hinder 01:02:32.990 --> 01:02:35.190 the next round of innovation. 01:02:35.190 --> 01:02:38.990 And the other principle that Taylor 01:02:38.990 --> 01:02:42.740 has the mobility of talents. 01:02:42.740 --> 01:02:47.210 He introduced market mechanism where they are now selecting 01:02:47.210 --> 01:02:51.040 projects, but they're-- 01:02:51.040 --> 01:02:53.420 they're not selecting the talents, 01:02:53.420 --> 01:02:55.120 but they're selecting the projects 01:02:55.120 --> 01:02:57.200 where, in a sense, whoever finds this project 01:02:57.200 --> 01:02:59.780 interesting can drop whatever they're doing 01:02:59.780 --> 01:03:01.730 and join the other product. 01:03:01.730 --> 01:03:05.840 So the interesting projects get more talent and get moved on, 01:03:05.840 --> 01:03:11.240 and those less interesting ones you get [INAUDIBLE].. 01:03:11.240 --> 01:03:16.250 And another key feature of his team 01:03:16.250 --> 01:03:18.740 is that the structure of the team was also flat. 01:03:18.740 --> 01:03:24.024 There's no influence of politics in this group of science. 01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:37.120 Another feature they had is this group meeting every week. 01:03:37.120 --> 01:03:38.950 So it is the only compulsory thing, 01:03:38.950 --> 01:03:46.750 that you have to attend this kind of weekly meeting 01:03:46.750 --> 01:03:50.740 where you bring your beanbags and every project will present 01:03:50.740 --> 01:03:52.360 their recent discoveries. 01:03:52.360 --> 01:03:57.280 And some of the lessons learned in one project 01:03:57.280 --> 01:04:03.130 might be crucial to the things going on in another team. 01:04:03.130 --> 01:04:07.110 And they exchange these ideas, and really helped 01:04:07.110 --> 01:04:09.330 the entire lab to develop. 01:04:16.110 --> 01:04:17.470 That is the beanbags. 01:04:25.020 --> 01:04:27.300 Just I will mention the role of the leader, 01:04:27.300 --> 01:04:32.880 and how good he can serve the group of talents in his team 01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:34.800 and be loyal to-- 01:04:34.800 --> 01:04:37.170 be responsible to the needs of the team 01:04:37.170 --> 01:04:39.360 is also very important. 01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:42.510 For PARC, there's a time that they 01:04:42.510 --> 01:04:53.190 wanted to have access to different hardwares where the-- 01:04:53.190 --> 01:04:55.128 Xerox-- 01:04:55.128 --> 01:04:56.170 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN Xerox. 01:04:56.170 --> 01:04:56.750 AUDIENCE: Xerox-- 01:04:56.750 --> 01:04:58.042 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Xerox, yes. 01:04:58.042 --> 01:05:03.920 AUDIENCE: --didn't really wanted to give the permission, 01:05:03.920 --> 01:05:11.370 bit the leader was very assertive his demand, 01:05:11.370 --> 01:05:14.110 and really threaten if you didn't allow-- 01:05:14.110 --> 01:05:16.050 if you don't allow us to have-- 01:05:16.050 --> 01:05:19.860 to invent our own hardwares, I will just quit. 01:05:19.860 --> 01:05:21.810 And eventually, they get permission 01:05:21.810 --> 01:05:25.290 and they design their own hardwares and softwares. 01:05:25.290 --> 01:05:30.740 And of course, this team was-- 01:05:30.740 --> 01:05:32.520 they're group of scientists that's 01:05:32.520 --> 01:05:35.010 really into whatever they're doing, 01:05:35.010 --> 01:05:37.170 that they don't see how they want 01:05:37.170 --> 01:05:39.955 to ship this to the mainland. 01:05:39.955 --> 01:05:42.360 They don't see how this can be-- 01:05:42.360 --> 01:05:44.930 should be commercialized. 01:05:44.930 --> 01:05:51.170 Therefore, some other team picked up this really well, 01:05:51.170 --> 01:05:55.650 and it's Apple, Steve Jobs. 01:05:55.650 --> 01:06:00.040 So Steve Jobs saw this opportunity 01:06:00.040 --> 01:06:06.615 of having this interactive and easy, 01:06:06.615 --> 01:06:12.490 the user-friendly version of computer being commercialized 01:06:12.490 --> 01:06:13.180 in the market. 01:06:13.180 --> 01:06:19.050 And he understand that that is the future of computing, 01:06:19.050 --> 01:06:29.130 and inspired his team to just do this in a very [INAUDIBLE] 01:06:29.130 --> 01:06:36.050 So Steve Jobs was able to inspire his team that they're-- 01:06:36.050 --> 01:06:38.340 in a way that they are doing something secretive. 01:06:38.340 --> 01:06:41.010 They cannot tell anyone else what they are doing. 01:06:41.010 --> 01:06:44.690 And they were working like 100 hours per week 01:06:44.690 --> 01:06:47.870 that's really intense, and also escalated. 01:06:51.080 --> 01:06:59.790 He also has this obsession, the elegance of this design. 01:06:59.790 --> 01:07:04.110 I think that also explains how Apple users are 01:07:04.110 --> 01:07:07.180 so loyal to this company. 01:07:07.180 --> 01:07:12.480 Then there's this also saying that Steve Jobs 01:07:12.480 --> 01:07:16.860 criticism to his employer sometimes can be abusive. 01:07:16.860 --> 01:07:23.970 And maybe it helped to build this innovative environment 01:07:23.970 --> 01:07:27.060 and give the pressure to get things done, but in a way 01:07:27.060 --> 01:07:29.847 that maybe he's also driving people away. 01:07:38.950 --> 01:07:45.200 So there's the downsides of his management principles, 01:07:45.200 --> 01:07:47.210 also this breaking down of marriage 01:07:47.210 --> 01:07:49.130 and other relationships. 01:07:54.530 --> 01:07:58.280 It can be argued that maybe this personality also 01:07:58.280 --> 01:08:05.370 helped to get this delivery of Macintosh to the market. 01:08:05.370 --> 01:08:08.630 But I would like to hear your voice. 01:08:08.630 --> 01:08:13.060 And there's some question that's really-- 01:08:13.060 --> 01:08:16.340 that's been popping up in my mind 01:08:16.340 --> 01:08:18.500 while I was doing these readings. 01:08:18.500 --> 01:08:19.520 What is your view? 01:08:19.520 --> 01:08:27.140 Are some inventions or technical advancements that-- 01:08:27.140 --> 01:08:32.660 they are inevitable for human revolution? 01:08:32.660 --> 01:08:38.390 Maybe the invention of fire or the use of tools in hunting 01:08:38.390 --> 01:08:42.140 are so crucial to human survival that they will eventually 01:08:42.140 --> 01:08:44.109 be discovered. 01:08:44.109 --> 01:08:47.479 But there are other things like maybe the desired computer. 01:08:47.479 --> 01:08:52.069 Maybe Vannevar Bush didn't point or have 01:08:52.069 --> 01:08:54.890 this vision of personal computer, 01:08:54.890 --> 01:08:58.670 but it's something entirely different, but equally amazing. 01:08:58.670 --> 01:09:01.160 Maybe we are having an entirely different way 01:09:01.160 --> 01:09:05.510 of communicating and transporting everything, 01:09:05.510 --> 01:09:07.310 but so much different. 01:09:07.310 --> 01:09:13.010 So do you think there are this category of innovations 01:09:13.010 --> 01:09:18.350 that some of them are crucial and inevitable, 01:09:18.350 --> 01:09:21.859 there are other things that are still-- 01:09:21.859 --> 01:09:24.380 we can still be without? 01:09:24.380 --> 01:09:27.800 What are your thoughts? 01:09:27.800 --> 01:09:29.810 MAX: So thinking back-- 01:09:29.810 --> 01:09:33.050 I think this goes back to the previous reading that 01:09:33.050 --> 01:09:35.000 was talking about how-- 01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:36.840 the 10,000 hours thing. 01:09:36.840 --> 01:09:41.060 So a lot of inventions, they seem to come by chance, 01:09:41.060 --> 01:09:43.580 but they're not actually by chance. 01:09:43.580 --> 01:09:47.090 They come from people dedicating thousands and thousands 01:09:47.090 --> 01:09:51.620 of hours and years, and completely restructuring 01:09:51.620 --> 01:09:54.800 their very lives just so they can try to make 01:09:54.800 --> 01:09:57.080 some sort of development. 01:09:57.080 --> 01:10:02.060 So I guess my first-- the first example comes to mind 01:10:02.060 --> 01:10:03.470 is penicillin. 01:10:03.470 --> 01:10:07.520 Everyone's heard the story of how he accidentally made it 01:10:07.520 --> 01:10:10.010 and how he actually found out that it works, because he 01:10:10.010 --> 01:10:13.070 spilled some on a sandwich that had mold on it or something. 01:10:13.070 --> 01:10:15.530 That's the story I heard anyway. 01:10:15.530 --> 01:10:20.320 So sometimes, maybe occasionally chance 01:10:20.320 --> 01:10:26.140 will help us find the invention or hear about it more quickly. 01:10:26.140 --> 01:10:28.270 For example, what's his face-- who made the phone? 01:10:28.270 --> 01:10:31.435 Graham Bell, thank you. 01:10:31.435 --> 01:10:32.329 MARTIN: [INAUDIBLE] 01:10:32.329 --> 01:10:32.996 MAX: Yeah, yeah. 01:10:36.130 --> 01:10:39.425 Actually, apparently, he was at the World Fair. 01:10:39.425 --> 01:10:41.050 This is actually a story I really love. 01:10:41.050 --> 01:10:43.490 He was at the World's Fair, and he-- 01:10:43.490 --> 01:10:46.450 when he was there, he happened to get there really late, 01:10:46.450 --> 01:10:50.230 so he couldn't get a table in the electrical section. 01:10:50.230 --> 01:10:52.840 So he had to get into some sort of botany section 01:10:52.840 --> 01:10:56.140 that was in this musky attic somewhere. 01:10:56.140 --> 01:10:59.740 And no one ever actually saw his project, 01:10:59.740 --> 01:11:01.270 because it was out of the way. 01:11:01.270 --> 01:11:05.080 And apparently there was a guy, some prince. 01:11:05.080 --> 01:11:09.670 And Graham Bell used to teach at a school for the deaf, 01:11:09.670 --> 01:11:12.450 because I think his father was deaf or something. 01:11:15.130 --> 01:11:17.710 This prince was the one who was leading the judges around 01:11:17.710 --> 01:11:18.685 at the World's Fair. 01:11:22.307 --> 01:11:24.140 The judges were tired at the end of the day, 01:11:24.140 --> 01:11:25.870 and they decided, OK, we'll look at one more project 01:11:25.870 --> 01:11:26.770 and go home. 01:11:26.770 --> 01:11:29.320 And the prince happened to see Bell, and they-- 01:11:29.320 --> 01:11:31.900 the prince obviously, he greeted Bell. 01:11:31.900 --> 01:11:34.600 He was like, oh, yeah, it's great to see you again. 01:11:34.600 --> 01:11:36.700 And then Bell showed off his invention, 01:11:36.700 --> 01:11:38.270 and the rest is history. 01:11:38.270 --> 01:11:42.040 So sometimes it's chance, but I feel like chance-- 01:11:42.040 --> 01:11:46.210 the invention isn't necessarily chance, but rather the-- 01:11:46.210 --> 01:11:49.345 its rapid development and commercialization, 01:11:49.345 --> 01:11:50.470 that might be a little bit. 01:11:55.350 --> 01:11:58.250 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Let me draw on some of the things, Luyao, 01:11:58.250 --> 01:12:01.220 that you raised, and tie it back to Max for a second. 01:12:01.220 --> 01:12:06.250 So let me just go through some of your interesting points 01:12:06.250 --> 01:12:08.420 with some additional perspectives. 01:12:08.420 --> 01:12:11.590 So one, the point you started with 01:12:11.590 --> 01:12:14.200 was the Memex and Vannever Bush's role 01:12:14.200 --> 01:12:17.770 in creating the Memex, which was really a fast retrieval 01:12:17.770 --> 01:12:22.340 system for it microfilm knowledge bases. 01:12:22.340 --> 01:12:26.570 We could look at it now and think about Windows and search 01:12:26.570 --> 01:12:30.500 engines as derivative technologies, 01:12:30.500 --> 01:12:34.670 but that's really what he was driving at. 01:12:34.670 --> 01:12:37.580 And so it put a picture up of something 01:12:37.580 --> 01:12:40.520 that computing might be able to undertake for us. 01:12:40.520 --> 01:12:43.070 It's not that he was able to achieve it. 01:12:43.070 --> 01:12:45.020 So that was, I think, a very interesting point 01:12:45.020 --> 01:12:48.410 to start from. 01:12:48.410 --> 01:12:50.810 Then you took us through the story of Doug Engelbart, 01:12:50.810 --> 01:12:51.380 just briefly. 01:12:54.290 --> 01:12:56.480 We talked last week about-- 01:12:56.480 --> 01:12:58.040 and we'll talk more-- 01:12:58.040 --> 01:13:01.610 about JCR Licklider and the role of DARPA in creating 01:13:01.610 --> 01:13:05.240 these great group communities. 01:13:05.240 --> 01:13:08.750 Engelbart is at Stanford Research Institute, SRI, 01:13:08.750 --> 01:13:11.050 and Licklider funds him. 01:13:11.050 --> 01:13:15.080 And Engelbart is clearly a remarkable talent. 01:13:15.080 --> 01:13:18.010 Licklider has the ability at DARPA to pick great groups 01:13:18.010 --> 01:13:21.130 and support them, and Engelbart is one that he comes up with. 01:13:21.130 --> 01:13:23.140 SRI couldn't understand what he was doing. 01:13:23.140 --> 01:13:24.310 They were pretty dismissive. 01:13:24.310 --> 01:13:27.160 But Licklider understood back at the DARPA office, 01:13:27.160 --> 01:13:28.810 and kept him funded. 01:13:28.810 --> 01:13:30.790 So he does a demonstration, as you point out, 01:13:30.790 --> 01:13:34.060 of 1968, which is called the mother of all demos. 01:13:34.060 --> 01:13:39.010 And it was to a group of computer freaks and computer 01:13:39.010 --> 01:13:41.470 scientists. 01:13:41.470 --> 01:13:43.270 And they're all gathered in a room, 01:13:43.270 --> 01:13:47.140 and Engelbart runs this series of demonstrations about what 01:13:47.140 --> 01:13:51.790 computing is going to be able to do, and shows hypertext, 01:13:51.790 --> 01:13:57.490 and he shows the mouse, and he shows just a whole set 01:13:57.490 --> 01:13:59.127 of capabilities that computing is 01:13:59.127 --> 01:14:01.210 going to be able to lead to-- which none have ever 01:14:01.210 --> 01:14:02.590 seen compiled before. 01:14:02.590 --> 01:14:06.200 So that was a critical visualization moment. 01:14:06.200 --> 01:14:08.440 Bob Taylor also worked for Licklider. 01:14:08.440 --> 01:14:11.110 So he was a project manager in DARPA-- 01:14:11.110 --> 01:14:13.660 again, another one of the talents that Licklider 01:14:13.660 --> 01:14:14.590 identified. 01:14:14.590 --> 01:14:19.120 And Taylor goes out to Xerox PARC 01:14:19.120 --> 01:14:22.120 and is running what we would call the personal computing 01:14:22.120 --> 01:14:23.140 team. 01:14:23.140 --> 01:14:25.540 And they develop-- 01:14:25.540 --> 01:14:29.320 Luyao, would you go to the slide of the early Apple, 01:14:29.320 --> 01:14:31.480 the early Mac? 01:14:31.480 --> 01:14:32.560 Yeah, that one. 01:14:32.560 --> 01:14:38.470 They develop something called the Alto at Xerox PARC. 01:14:38.470 --> 01:14:40.730 It does look a fair amount like this. 01:14:40.730 --> 01:14:41.980 It's got a cathode ray screen. 01:14:41.980 --> 01:14:43.465 It's got a computer keyboard. 01:14:47.420 --> 01:14:49.760 But it has all these capabilities 01:14:49.760 --> 01:14:51.920 that, in some ways, they have-- 01:14:51.920 --> 01:14:57.470 it has all of Engelbart's capabilities and more-- 01:14:57.470 --> 01:15:00.860 and remarkable ability to do data visualization. 01:15:00.860 --> 01:15:03.190 It's fun to use, it's-- 01:15:03.190 --> 01:15:05.180 there having a great time with it. 01:15:05.180 --> 01:15:09.470 But because, as you pointed out, of this island-bridge problem-- 01:15:09.470 --> 01:15:14.823 in other words, Xerox PARC Palo Alto Research Center 01:15:14.823 --> 01:15:15.990 is out there in California-- 01:15:15.990 --> 01:15:19.050 Xerox is in Rochester, New York. 01:15:19.050 --> 01:15:22.390 It's making copying machines. 01:15:22.390 --> 01:15:24.910 There just is no connection between-- 01:15:24.910 --> 01:15:29.270 as you suggested, between the group making copiers 01:15:29.270 --> 01:15:35.650 in New York and these wild computer scientists living 01:15:35.650 --> 01:15:37.420 on beanbags. 01:15:37.420 --> 01:15:40.230 And they just don't-- it doesn't happen. 01:15:40.230 --> 01:15:41.980 The technology doesn't transfer. 01:15:41.980 --> 01:15:46.540 Xerox has no idea really what these-- 01:15:46.540 --> 01:15:50.140 what this incredible Xerox PARC team visualized here 01:15:50.140 --> 01:15:50.860 has accomplished. 01:15:50.860 --> 01:15:53.660 They don't know how to translate it in the marketplace, 01:15:53.660 --> 01:15:58.450 so they miss the opportunity of being Apple, and therefore, 01:15:58.450 --> 01:16:00.530 the largest company in the world at the moment. 01:16:00.530 --> 01:16:03.250 So it's a painful island-bridge problem 01:16:03.250 --> 01:16:06.280 that they are never able to resolve. 01:16:06.280 --> 01:16:08.980 The head of R&D at Xerox PARC-- 01:16:08.980 --> 01:16:13.060 at Xerox, who had set up Xerox PARC to begin with, 01:16:13.060 --> 01:16:16.390 isn't able to help them make that transition. 01:16:16.390 --> 01:16:22.000 So it's the ultimate story of the island-bridge not working. 01:16:22.000 --> 01:16:27.590 And then, just to kind of carry this story through, it's-- 01:16:27.590 --> 01:16:30.920 Jobs buys the rights to essentially walk 01:16:30.920 --> 01:16:35.330 through Xerox PARC, and see the Alto, 01:16:35.330 --> 01:16:37.340 and see what it's accomplished. 01:16:37.340 --> 01:16:40.610 And he and his team go through in the course of the afternoon. 01:16:40.610 --> 01:16:42.440 It's not that they take the technology. 01:16:42.440 --> 01:16:45.170 They don't get the rights to take the technology. 01:16:45.170 --> 01:16:50.760 What they do is see what the Alto is capable of doing. 01:16:50.760 --> 01:16:54.210 And then they have a picture of what's possible, 01:16:54.210 --> 01:16:57.300 and then they work on putting the Mac together 01:16:57.300 --> 01:16:58.682 to realize that picture. 01:16:58.682 --> 01:17:00.390 So there's great technical accomplishment 01:17:00.390 --> 01:17:02.160 and what they achieve. 01:17:02.160 --> 01:17:06.580 But they do get the visions on what gets put together. 01:17:06.580 --> 01:17:10.830 So Luyao has led us in this interesting track 01:17:10.830 --> 01:17:17.520 of Vannevar Bush and Memex to Doug Engelbart to-- 01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:20.250 I would throw in DARPA here because they played such role-- 01:17:20.250 --> 01:17:24.900 but then to Bob Taylor comes out of DARPA to lead Xerox PARC, 01:17:24.900 --> 01:17:26.340 and then to Steve Jobs. 01:17:26.340 --> 01:17:27.690 So there's a whole continuity. 01:17:27.690 --> 01:17:29.040 And there's something worth remembering, 01:17:29.040 --> 01:17:30.415 which is that all of these groups 01:17:30.415 --> 01:17:33.600 stand on each other's shoulders. 01:17:33.600 --> 01:17:35.640 These incredible technology achievements 01:17:35.640 --> 01:17:39.550 that lead to personal computing just build, build, build, 01:17:39.550 --> 01:17:40.050 and build. 01:17:40.050 --> 01:17:42.600 And there's a series of remarkable great groups here. 01:17:42.600 --> 01:17:44.960 Is that a fair summary? 01:17:44.960 --> 01:17:47.967 OK, now, let's get back to your-- 01:17:47.967 --> 01:17:49.550 let me come to you in a second, Steph. 01:17:49.550 --> 01:17:52.790 But I think Luyao's question is a really key one, that there 01:17:52.790 --> 01:17:58.670 are inventions that we have to have, 01:17:58.670 --> 01:18:01.790 and then there's other stuff. 01:18:01.790 --> 01:18:08.870 And how do we create that drive to create the other stuff, 01:18:08.870 --> 01:18:09.700 like computing? 01:18:09.700 --> 01:18:11.450 We didn't have to have personal computing. 01:18:11.450 --> 01:18:15.560 The world got along with it for a few million years without it. 01:18:15.560 --> 01:18:19.823 What is it enables us to put that on the list as a necessity 01:18:19.823 --> 01:18:20.990 and really drive towards it? 01:18:20.990 --> 01:18:22.210 How does that happen? 01:18:22.210 --> 01:18:24.510 Is that a fair summary of your question? 01:18:24.510 --> 01:18:25.010 OK. 01:18:29.330 --> 01:18:31.000 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] I think that's 01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:32.917 where I disagree with Max-- that I don't think 01:18:32.917 --> 01:18:34.480 it's so much about an inevitability, 01:18:34.480 --> 01:18:36.430 because I think it's much more about what Bill just stated, 01:18:36.430 --> 01:18:38.260 that we stand on the shoulders of giants, 01:18:38.260 --> 01:18:41.440 and that necessitates the continuance 01:18:41.440 --> 01:18:44.175 of a momentum toward a direction of something. 01:18:44.175 --> 01:18:45.550 And I feel like we had been going 01:18:45.550 --> 01:18:48.010 towards the direction of the personal computer for a very 01:18:48.010 --> 01:18:51.860 long time, beginning with the Gutenberg press, 01:18:51.860 --> 01:18:55.330 and then the personal typewriter that you could carry around, 01:18:55.330 --> 01:18:57.240 and that people certainly did carry around. 01:18:57.240 --> 01:18:59.080 And then that gave people the impression 01:18:59.080 --> 01:19:00.580 that there could be something better 01:19:00.580 --> 01:19:02.470 and that there was a next step. 01:19:02.470 --> 01:19:06.590 So I don't think it's so much about inevitability or-- 01:19:06.590 --> 01:19:10.202 and I do think sometimes chance does play a role, 01:19:10.202 --> 01:19:12.160 but I think it's more so about the continuation 01:19:12.160 --> 01:19:13.480 of that momentum. 01:19:13.480 --> 01:19:15.580 And that's why I think it's important to analyze 01:19:15.580 --> 01:19:17.980 where we are and where we've been going, 01:19:17.980 --> 01:19:20.800 and to think about the interesting visions 01:19:20.800 --> 01:19:24.610 that we can have within the confines of that direction 01:19:24.610 --> 01:19:26.110 in which we're moving forward to. 01:19:28.293 --> 01:19:29.710 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So in a way, I 01:19:29.710 --> 01:19:32.810 think what you're both saying is that-- 01:19:32.810 --> 01:19:34.830 and we'll tie it back into Beth's discussion 01:19:34.830 --> 01:19:37.010 of Oppenheimer-- 01:19:37.010 --> 01:19:41.130 you build up this momentum on a technology pathway, 01:19:41.130 --> 01:19:43.080 and you can't turn back the clock. 01:19:43.080 --> 01:19:46.350 And that's what Oppenheimer found. 01:19:46.350 --> 01:19:48.090 When that project reached culmination, 01:19:48.090 --> 01:19:50.130 he probably wanted to turn back the clock, 01:19:50.130 --> 01:19:51.300 but there was no way. 01:19:51.300 --> 01:19:54.192 That technology would keep going on a pathway. 01:19:54.192 --> 01:19:56.275 And maybe that's a way of answering your question, 01:19:56.275 --> 01:19:58.680 Luyao, that there's certain-- there becomes 01:19:58.680 --> 01:20:01.680 a certain inevitability about, once you start launching down 01:20:01.680 --> 01:20:03.270 a technology pathway, that it's going 01:20:03.270 --> 01:20:08.040 to have its own momentum, whether it's a necessity 01:20:08.040 --> 01:20:09.340 or not. 01:20:09.340 --> 01:20:12.070 What do you think? 01:20:12.070 --> 01:20:14.170 AUDIENCE: I think this is getting philosophical-- 01:20:16.680 --> 01:20:20.480 whether or not there's alternatives to history. 01:20:23.600 --> 01:20:26.320 I realize there's another part I didn't touch. 01:20:26.320 --> 01:20:29.980 So this-- a lot of principles we introduced 01:20:29.980 --> 01:20:34.240 in these great groups doesn't really act as models. 01:20:34.240 --> 01:20:36.730 It's just these factors adding together 01:20:36.730 --> 01:20:38.050 make these things successful. 01:20:38.050 --> 01:20:45.220 But how applicable are these principles to the world today? 01:20:45.220 --> 01:20:48.070 Personally, I find there's over-commercialization 01:20:48.070 --> 01:20:52.060 of a lot of [INAUDIBLE] inventions. 01:20:52.060 --> 01:20:53.740 And I don't know if it's true. 01:20:57.150 --> 01:21:01.320 Also I saw a question in our summary asking 01:21:01.320 --> 01:21:07.350 with these lessons learned from previous great groups, 01:21:07.350 --> 01:21:10.320 how can these lessons be applied to different scales 01:21:10.320 --> 01:21:14.520 of production? 01:21:14.520 --> 01:21:17.540 The great groups I assessed are smaller groups, 01:21:17.540 --> 01:21:22.190 and they're in the beginning of figuring out how computer-- 01:21:22.190 --> 01:21:23.570 personal computer can work. 01:21:23.570 --> 01:21:28.290 But in terms of bigger companies like Google or Facebook, 01:21:28.290 --> 01:21:29.560 are they-- 01:21:29.560 --> 01:21:33.320 how applicable are these lessons to these bigger groups that 01:21:33.320 --> 01:21:37.820 also requires innovation, but having a more complex politics 01:21:37.820 --> 01:21:39.638 in these groups? 01:21:39.638 --> 01:21:40.680 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah. 01:21:40.680 --> 01:21:43.950 Look, I think that's a crucial question. 01:21:43.950 --> 01:21:48.210 And related to it is, once you create a great group, 01:21:48.210 --> 01:21:51.300 does it only do one thing, or can I 01:21:51.300 --> 01:21:55.440 keep moving on to ongoing innovations? 01:21:55.440 --> 01:21:59.010 And the number of times that happens is not big. 01:21:59.010 --> 01:22:01.770 But how could you create a culture, particularly 01:22:01.770 --> 01:22:04.440 within the larger corporate organization, 01:22:04.440 --> 01:22:06.510 that keeps innovating. 01:22:06.510 --> 01:22:09.030 It's really a tricky problem. 01:22:09.030 --> 01:22:11.070 AUDIENCE: We also hope that these models can 01:22:11.070 --> 01:22:14.040 be independent of the leader and their personality, 01:22:14.040 --> 01:22:17.190 and can be cated in other fields. 01:22:17.190 --> 01:22:21.664 Otherwise, it will always be reliant on that leaders 01:22:21.664 --> 01:22:26.598 to lead us [INAUDIBLE] 01:22:26.598 --> 01:22:28.140 AUDIENCE: So when I was reading this, 01:22:28.140 --> 01:22:32.220 and in Bennis's whole description of great groups, 01:22:32.220 --> 01:22:34.320 I definitely have a lot of concerns 01:22:34.320 --> 01:22:35.860 with how the groups come about. 01:22:35.860 --> 01:22:38.460 Like at PARC especially, it was-- 01:22:38.460 --> 01:22:39.130 I forget. 01:22:39.130 --> 01:22:40.295 Taylor was his name? 01:22:40.295 --> 01:22:41.170 AUDIENCE: Bob Taylor. 01:22:41.170 --> 01:22:42.462 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Bob Taylor. 01:22:42.462 --> 01:22:45.870 AUDIENCE: He was picking people whose personalities meshed well 01:22:45.870 --> 01:22:47.790 with the group, and stuff like that. 01:22:47.790 --> 01:22:49.590 And then Bennis emphasizes so much 01:22:49.590 --> 01:22:52.020 about how great groups can really 01:22:52.020 --> 01:22:54.840 affect people's family life. 01:22:54.840 --> 01:22:58.460 It seems like they kind of exclude a lot of people. 01:22:58.460 --> 01:23:00.960 If you don't fit with the leader of the group, 01:23:00.960 --> 01:23:02.580 even if you could have contributed, 01:23:02.580 --> 01:23:04.290 you have a different personality type, 01:23:04.290 --> 01:23:06.300 you might not get picked to be in a great group. 01:23:06.300 --> 01:23:09.000 Or if you're a woman who is expected 01:23:09.000 --> 01:23:12.090 to see her children once in a while, 01:23:12.090 --> 01:23:14.460 how are you going to hang in the great group? 01:23:14.460 --> 01:23:15.500 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Sometimes fathers see their children 01:23:15.500 --> 01:23:16.700 occasionally. 01:23:16.700 --> 01:23:19.140 AUDIENCE: I know, but I think there's still 01:23:19.140 --> 01:23:21.990 a societal expectation of women being somewhat more 01:23:21.990 --> 01:23:23.710 present in their families-- 01:23:23.710 --> 01:23:26.608 whether that will persist, who knows. 01:23:26.608 --> 01:23:27.150 I don't know. 01:23:27.150 --> 01:23:30.720 It makes me nervous when we talk about perpetuating 01:23:30.720 --> 01:23:32.190 great groups, when they seem kind 01:23:32.190 --> 01:23:34.795 of exclusionary, exclusive. 01:23:37.980 --> 01:23:40.950 AUDIENCE: There's an amazing point that you have brought up, 01:23:40.950 --> 01:23:43.740 that I will touch on in a second, the first one of which 01:23:43.740 --> 01:23:45.023 is that I don't think that-- 01:23:45.023 --> 01:23:46.440 or rather, your analysis, I think, 01:23:46.440 --> 01:23:48.900 applies well to the Tuxedo Park reading 01:23:48.900 --> 01:23:51.720 that we did maybe two or three classes ago about how-- 01:23:54.390 --> 01:23:55.905 what was his name, Alfred Loomis? 01:23:55.905 --> 01:23:57.030 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Loomis. 01:23:57.030 --> 01:23:58.780 AUDIENCE: Loomis was hand-selecting people 01:23:58.780 --> 01:24:01.050 that he liked to work in his lab. 01:24:01.050 --> 01:24:03.810 That doesn't seem to me to be very far 01:24:03.810 --> 01:24:08.310 from what he was doing in his private lab, which is obviously 01:24:08.310 --> 01:24:10.790 a point of concern, in terms of including diversity 01:24:10.790 --> 01:24:11.690 in your perspective-- 01:24:11.690 --> 01:24:13.190 [INAUDIBLE] perspectives, not to say 01:24:13.190 --> 01:24:16.200 anything of racial diversity, and affirmative action right, 01:24:16.200 --> 01:24:20.640 and including populations that can be underrepresented 01:24:20.640 --> 01:24:22.410 in science and technology. 01:24:22.410 --> 01:24:24.700 But furthermore, also while I was reading this, 01:24:24.700 --> 01:24:26.300 I felt like it was almost presupposed 01:24:26.300 --> 01:24:29.220 that all of these people were going to be white male. 01:24:29.220 --> 01:24:32.508 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So let's go back to the beanbag slide. 01:24:32.508 --> 01:24:33.550 AUDIENCE: There's a girl. 01:24:33.550 --> 01:24:35.192 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: There's two. 01:24:35.192 --> 01:24:36.650 AUDIENCE: In the reading, they only 01:24:36.650 --> 01:24:38.390 mentioned one woman explicitly, and that 01:24:38.390 --> 01:24:40.740 was the woman who was the graphic designer at Apple, 01:24:40.740 --> 01:24:42.860 and so she didn't have any technical capabilities 01:24:42.860 --> 01:24:44.750 and didn't have much of a role to play 01:24:44.750 --> 01:24:46.400 within the organizational structure. 01:24:46.400 --> 01:24:48.320 And thus, her influence was very low. 01:24:48.320 --> 01:24:51.110 So I really call into question precisely what Beth is saying, 01:24:51.110 --> 01:24:53.103 but would almost say that it's not something 01:24:53.103 --> 01:24:54.020 that makes me nervous. 01:24:54.020 --> 01:24:56.720 It's something I find outrageous. 01:24:56.720 --> 01:25:00.440 MAX: So I would say actually to somewhat counter that-- 01:25:00.440 --> 01:25:02.852 definitely I agree, women in STEM 01:25:02.852 --> 01:25:05.060 fields-- that we definitely need more representation. 01:25:05.060 --> 01:25:08.090 But it's possible that, at the time, 01:25:08.090 --> 01:25:11.290 there was less of an emphasis on STEM education, 01:25:11.290 --> 01:25:12.040 which would mean-- 01:25:12.040 --> 01:25:12.748 AUDIENCE: Oh, no. 01:25:12.748 --> 01:25:14.420 So I totally agree with the reasons-- 01:25:14.420 --> 01:25:16.837 or rather, I understand the reasons as to why it happened. 01:25:16.837 --> 01:25:19.640 But as being these scholars are thinking 01:25:19.640 --> 01:25:21.620 about organizational structure, they're 01:25:21.620 --> 01:25:24.140 not adding in any caveats about the roles 01:25:24.140 --> 01:25:26.900 in which these social factors have to play. 01:25:26.900 --> 01:25:29.150 And furthermore, they're not making recommendations 01:25:29.150 --> 01:25:30.740 as to how they could be resolved. 01:25:30.740 --> 01:25:33.110 Because if they are not the ones addressing 01:25:33.110 --> 01:25:35.990 these holes within organizational structure 01:25:35.990 --> 01:25:37.160 and how people can-- 01:25:37.160 --> 01:25:39.800 people's perspectives can be meaningfully included, 01:25:39.800 --> 01:25:44.450 then you're just glossing over that as an issue 01:25:44.450 --> 01:25:46.290 and leaving it for someone else to resolve. 01:25:46.290 --> 01:25:49.310 And so that was my concern with this reading, in particular. 01:25:49.310 --> 01:25:52.550 I can have a concern writ large with sexism in the workplace, 01:25:52.550 --> 01:25:55.032 but I try to focus my concerns generally 01:25:55.032 --> 01:25:56.990 with the literature with which we are engaging. 01:25:56.990 --> 01:25:58.610 AUDIENCE: So you're saying this was an omission 01:25:58.610 --> 01:25:59.650 from [INAUDIBLE] writing? 01:25:59.650 --> 01:26:00.400 AUDIENCE: Correct. 01:26:00.400 --> 01:26:03.495 Yes, specifically. 01:26:03.495 --> 01:26:07.188 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 01:26:07.188 --> 01:26:09.230 MARTIN: I would counter, in terms of-- because it 01:26:09.230 --> 01:26:11.180 is a question of our time. 01:26:11.180 --> 01:26:13.610 I think that there will be an organization that 01:26:13.610 --> 01:26:16.950 is more prone to females that does better [INAUDIBLE] 01:26:16.950 --> 01:26:18.470 doing it or there's an organization 01:26:18.470 --> 01:26:21.948 that's all-female because of the structure being different. 01:26:21.948 --> 01:26:24.240 Because it's something that I started seeing when I did 01:26:24.240 --> 01:26:27.980 work as a diplomat in Mexico. 01:26:27.980 --> 01:26:30.450 Their social structure was much more extreme. 01:26:30.450 --> 01:26:33.140 So if a daughter was seen working with a man, 01:26:33.140 --> 01:26:35.380 the parents would like, ugh. 01:26:35.380 --> 01:26:37.880 So they started making special groups just for these females 01:26:37.880 --> 01:26:40.055 so they can move forward and get an education. 01:26:40.055 --> 01:26:41.430 And I think that's a problem that 01:26:41.430 --> 01:26:44.870 can be more prevalent outside the US than in the US. 01:26:44.870 --> 01:26:46.392 But also, if you give a good answer 01:26:46.392 --> 01:26:47.600 and have really good talent-- 01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:49.900 because these people are really more competing for talent. 01:26:49.900 --> 01:26:52.490 And you find a way of accessing it and changing your structure. 01:26:52.490 --> 01:26:54.115 Because it might be that this structure 01:26:54.115 --> 01:26:56.000 of always being very intense. 01:26:56.000 --> 01:26:59.403 Being on location is a problem women with children, 01:26:59.403 --> 01:27:01.070 so maybe changing the structure around-- 01:27:01.070 --> 01:27:04.170 Yahoo try to do this, [INAUDIBLE] ability 01:27:04.170 --> 01:27:06.045 to work from home or choose specific days 01:27:06.045 --> 01:27:07.670 so you can hang out with your children. 01:27:07.670 --> 01:27:10.130 Also because most-- more organizations are going to try 01:27:10.130 --> 01:27:11.600 to become-- 01:27:11.600 --> 01:27:13.053 they want this model. 01:27:13.053 --> 01:27:15.470 I think there's going to be companies that are going to be 01:27:15.470 --> 01:27:18.230 very intense and then mix vacation time, 01:27:18.230 --> 01:27:20.845 because they know work life balance [INAUDIBLE]---- well, 01:27:20.845 --> 01:27:22.245 it's not working. 01:27:22.245 --> 01:27:23.870 So you have to find a way of mixing it. 01:27:23.870 --> 01:27:26.495 So it's like, OK, you have this problem, you have this project, 01:27:26.495 --> 01:27:29.630 you've got a deadline, and then you have two, three days off. 01:27:29.630 --> 01:27:32.060 Because you need to have a certain intensity 01:27:32.060 --> 01:27:35.270 for a certain amount of time, but that you can kind of relax. 01:27:35.270 --> 01:27:38.810 And that's going to lead to less turnover in employees. 01:27:38.810 --> 01:27:40.070 Because that's a big issue. 01:27:40.070 --> 01:27:42.070 If you have employees that are working very hard 01:27:42.070 --> 01:27:43.250 and they don't get a break-- 01:27:43.250 --> 01:27:45.622 if you have a cord be too tight, it snaps, 01:27:45.622 --> 01:27:47.830 and so you want to make some loosening and tightening 01:27:47.830 --> 01:27:49.280 to get a right cord. 01:27:51.417 --> 01:27:53.000 AUDIENCE: I also wonder how applicable 01:27:53.000 --> 01:27:55.630 this is to the context outside the West 01:27:55.630 --> 01:27:56.900 and outside the United States. 01:27:56.900 --> 01:27:59.150 In terms of work culture and organizational structure, 01:27:59.150 --> 01:28:03.560 I think a lot of other countries culturally or just society 01:28:03.560 --> 01:28:07.410 have different senses of obligation to family 01:28:07.410 --> 01:28:08.460 and community at large. 01:28:08.460 --> 01:28:10.100 So I think that this is definitely 01:28:10.100 --> 01:28:13.240 a very Western, maybe very US-centric approach 01:28:13.240 --> 01:28:14.620 to how analyze great groups. 01:28:14.620 --> 01:28:15.620 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yes. 01:28:15.620 --> 01:28:17.780 Sanam, I think that's an important point. 01:28:17.780 --> 01:28:21.910 This great group series that we're doing really 01:28:21.910 --> 01:28:24.280 does reflect an American culture. 01:28:24.280 --> 01:28:25.870 And how does that great group theory 01:28:25.870 --> 01:28:28.270 translate into other cultures? 01:28:28.270 --> 01:28:30.910 I think that's a really an important underlying question. 01:28:30.910 --> 01:28:34.120 And as we said a couple of weeks ago, 01:28:34.120 --> 01:28:37.280 I am open to other great groups. 01:28:37.280 --> 01:28:42.580 So when you all have candidates that open up-- 01:28:42.580 --> 01:28:44.200 is the 1970s. 01:28:44.200 --> 01:28:46.420 That's as far as we've gotten. 01:28:46.420 --> 01:28:49.600 We've covered the 1940s pretty well and '50s. 01:28:49.600 --> 01:28:52.180 Now, we're at the '70s. 01:28:52.180 --> 01:28:54.567 Not much has changed. 01:28:54.567 --> 01:28:56.650 And I'm not sure much changes in any of the groups 01:28:56.650 --> 01:28:58.360 that we're going to talk about today. 01:28:58.360 --> 01:29:01.270 I think it starts to get better in places like Genentech 01:29:01.270 --> 01:29:03.400 and Craig Venter's operation. 01:29:07.435 --> 01:29:09.810 And the problem is you've got to find a technology that's 01:29:09.810 --> 01:29:12.780 taken off so you can prove that the group accomplished 01:29:12.780 --> 01:29:13.818 something. 01:29:13.818 --> 01:29:15.360 So if you all would help me with this 01:29:15.360 --> 01:29:17.370 and find examples that I can include in the group, 01:29:17.370 --> 01:29:17.870 it'll be-- 01:29:17.870 --> 01:29:21.930 MARTIN: [INAUDIBLE] is capitalism and technology 01:29:21.930 --> 01:29:23.530 so that's going to be a group-- 01:29:23.530 --> 01:29:27.680 it is going to be pretty much white males. 01:29:27.680 --> 01:29:29.730 If we redefined it as the top working groups 01:29:29.730 --> 01:29:30.790 in different fields-- 01:29:30.790 --> 01:29:33.510 so it can be like music, like soul music. 01:29:33.510 --> 01:29:35.073 How do they stretch themselves? 01:29:35.073 --> 01:29:36.740 We might be able to find [INAUDIBLE]---- 01:29:36.740 --> 01:29:37.110 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah, you tried 01:29:37.110 --> 01:29:38.443 to raise this last week, Martin. 01:29:38.443 --> 01:29:39.120 MARTIN: Yeah. 01:29:39.120 --> 01:29:41.328 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I still wanted technology though. 01:29:41.328 --> 01:29:43.840 MARTIN: [INAUDIBLE] or maybe you can go back in time 01:29:43.840 --> 01:29:44.510 [INAUDIBLE] different countries. 01:29:44.510 --> 01:29:44.820 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I don't know. 01:29:44.820 --> 01:29:46.403 I think things are starting to change. 01:29:46.403 --> 01:29:46.903 We'll see. 01:29:46.903 --> 01:29:48.861 MARTIN: We're also looking at the popular ones. 01:29:48.861 --> 01:29:50.490 So maybe we can look at top technology 01:29:50.490 --> 01:29:53.462 in like India, top technology groups in other countries. 01:29:53.462 --> 01:29:54.545 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right. 01:29:54.545 --> 01:29:57.240 AUDIENCE: I think we already did Japan. 01:29:57.240 --> 01:29:59.820 The thing that I remember kicking myself 01:29:59.820 --> 01:30:02.070 for not bringing up, when you were talking about Japan 01:30:02.070 --> 01:30:05.540 and how incredibly prolific they were, and the-- 01:30:05.540 --> 01:30:08.720 their economic growth is that they created effectively 01:30:08.720 --> 01:30:11.530 a workplace culture that relied on two factors-- 01:30:11.530 --> 01:30:13.740 one, devoting your entire life to your job-- 01:30:13.740 --> 01:30:15.100 one job you choose. 01:30:15.100 --> 01:30:18.190 You're with a company for the rest of your time there. 01:30:18.190 --> 01:30:21.720 And then two, that if your entire self-worth 01:30:21.720 --> 01:30:24.510 as an individual is tied to your success within this company 01:30:24.510 --> 01:30:27.820 or the success of the company generally, then if you fail 01:30:27.820 --> 01:30:30.730 or if the company fails, you feel like you're effectively 01:30:30.730 --> 01:30:31.230 threatened. 01:30:31.230 --> 01:30:32.610 And what I mentioned to Bill, and something 01:30:32.610 --> 01:30:34.027 that you may know, is that there's 01:30:34.027 --> 01:30:36.860 an incredibly high suicide rate amongst Japanese workers. 01:30:36.860 --> 01:30:40.140 So what does that mean if the culture that we are trying 01:30:40.140 --> 01:30:42.840 to create here is effectively trying 01:30:42.840 --> 01:30:44.450 to emulate Japan's, because we want 01:30:44.450 --> 01:30:46.200 to achieve their level of economic growth, 01:30:46.200 --> 01:30:49.950 if it is that they have reached the sort of peak human? 01:30:49.950 --> 01:30:51.420 Is that what we have to aspire to? 01:30:51.420 --> 01:30:53.640 And what might be some lessons for us 01:30:53.640 --> 01:30:55.870 to learn from that country, as a great group? 01:30:58.470 --> 01:31:00.668 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: OK, that's fair enough. 01:31:00.668 --> 01:31:03.210 So Luyao, do you want to give us a couple of closing thoughts 01:31:03.210 --> 01:31:05.280 about the groups you looked at? 01:31:05.280 --> 01:31:09.180 AUDIENCE: Yeah, I think definitely these lessons 01:31:09.180 --> 01:31:20.490 learned [INAUDIBLE] I'm amazed, as a Chinese background 01:31:20.490 --> 01:31:24.340 student, with this flat structure of a lab. 01:31:24.340 --> 01:31:26.640 That would never happen in Chinese culture. 01:31:26.640 --> 01:31:28.240 It is always hierarchical. 01:31:33.720 --> 01:31:36.945 I think other things that's been changing better in China 01:31:36.945 --> 01:31:40.860 is the sense of female scientists' position in China 01:31:40.860 --> 01:31:46.560 has been actually leading in all these other countries. 01:31:46.560 --> 01:31:48.870 We have a larger number of female scientists, I think-- 01:31:52.360 --> 01:31:53.520 we are highly ranked. 01:31:53.520 --> 01:31:56.070 And there are lessons to be learned 01:31:56.070 --> 01:32:00.740 from different countries and from across history.